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View Full Version : Dead Pixel on my new 17" iMac - options?


Apple!Freak
Oct 23, 2005, 04:35 AM
I got my new 17" iMac on Friday that I bought to use as my media Mac and I sat through 13 episodes of Lost last night (yeah, I just got addicted and had to watch one after the other) and noticed one dead pixle that is stuck on blue to the middle left side of the screen.

Because, I will be watching a lot of videos, pictures, etc on this Mac, it will become very annoying to have even just that one pixel out, so my question stands with: do you think Apple will replace the screen if I bring it back to my local Apple Store? It's a custom build so an exchange wouldn't work.

Anyone think they will just replace the screen even though it's just one pixel seeing as I just got it on Friday?

EDIT: Or actually better yet, because the 250GB HD is the only thing custom about it, do you think they could just grab another new 17" iMac and swap the hard drives?

chucknorris
Oct 23, 2005, 04:55 AM
I got my new 17" iMac on Friday that I bought to use as my media Mac and I sat through 13 episodes of Lost last night (yeah, I just got addicted and had to watch one after the other) and noticed one dead pixle that is stuck on blue to the middle left side of the screen.

Because, I will be watching a lot of videos, pictures, etc on this Mac, it will become very annoying to have even just that one pixel out, so my question stands with: do you think Apple will replace the screen if I bring it back to my local Apple Store? It's a custom build so an exchange wouldn't work.

Anyone think they will just replace the screen even though it's just one pixel seeing as I just got it on Friday?

EDIT: Or actually better yet, because the 250GB HD is the only thing custom about it, do you think they could just grab another new 17" iMac and swap the hard drives?

Doubly bad news.

1. Apple has a very strict dead pixel policy, which is to say one is not enough (nor two or three).

2. You have a BTO computer, so Apple will make it very hard to return or do most things with.

With that out of the way though, you DO have options in the form of third-party software.

There are multiple programs that flash colors on your screen and are very good at unsticking pixels. The only name I can think of is Pixel Warrior, but there are others.

Good luck!

Apple!Freak
Oct 23, 2005, 05:22 AM
I don't understand how they could leave a customer out like that.

If I buy a computer, and it's defective in one way or another, it's defective and they need to replace it. Right?

At least this is how I thought the world worked. Guess all of us customers are chumps?

Apple!Freak
Oct 23, 2005, 05:33 AM
I'll bring it into the Apple Store today and see if they can give me a body swap, and basically just put the HD in a new unit.

I think I can get them to do this seeing as beyond the dead pixel, the body also has a couple of problems. Number 1, the part just above the apple logo in front where the screen meets to body is bent out a little (or warped), and number 2, the body screws don't seem to tighten as well as they should as they leave the two pieces pretty loose.

We'll see what happens today.

Nutter
Oct 23, 2005, 05:37 AM
I think you will get a replacement, as long as you are fairly firm about how displeased you are with the pixel problem. I heard that the Apple Store policy is that there is no minimum number of dead pixels before they accept a return, as long as the problem is disturbing enough to the customer.

Good luck.

Nutter
Oct 23, 2005, 05:39 AM
Having said that, you problably can't return it to an Apple retail store if you bought it online...

devilot
Oct 23, 2005, 06:17 AM
I doubt you'll have much luck, OP... when my brand new iMacG5 rev. B had a busted superdrive the second day I got it (when I called into AppleCare they even said it qualified as DOA) they wouldn't swap my machine...


Why? It was BTO...

From 512MB to 1GB. I guess that RAM was too difficult to swap. :rolleyes: :(

wdlove
Oct 23, 2005, 11:33 AM
I'll bring it into the Apple Store today and see if they can give me a body swap, and basically just put the HD in a new unit.

I think I can get them to do this seeing as beyond the dead pixel, the body also has a couple of problems. Number 1, the part just above the apple logo in front where the screen meets to body is bent out a little (or warped), and number 2, the body screws don't seem to tighten as well as they should as they leave the two pieces pretty loose.

We'll see what happens today.

I think that it is worth taking your new iMac G5 back to your local Apple Store. Since you have more just the dead pixel you may be in luck. Just be sure to be firm and polite. Good luck, will look forward to hearing what happens.

QCassidy352
Oct 23, 2005, 12:53 PM
I don't understand how they could leave a customer out like that.

If I buy a computer, and it's defective in one way or another, it's defective and they need to replace it. Right?

At least this is how I thought the world worked. Guess all of us customers are chumps?

The point is that Apple doesn't consider one stuck pixel "defective." I have one on my 20" apple cinema, and honestly, it's not too noticable.

Dont Hurt Me
Oct 23, 2005, 01:00 PM
Applefreak I would try to gently but firmly rub the pixel with a soft cloth. Many times they can be rubbed in if you will. If not tell Apple you use your machine as a professional and it has to be perfect yada yada yada. Good luck

zap2
Oct 23, 2005, 01:03 PM
is it dead or stuck cuz stuck ones can be fixed( and they are norma,l colored) just do a forum search for stuck pixel

RHMMMM
Oct 23, 2005, 01:07 PM
I would raise all hell. Dead/stuck pixels are the worst. It's a cosmetic flaw that you'll always notice and it will detract from your overall computing experience. I think they should replace it for you and if they don't, just keep trying to climb the chain of command until you get it fixed.

chucknorris
Oct 23, 2005, 03:55 PM
USE SOFTWARE BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING!

There's no need to make a big deal out of something that may be able to be fixed quite easily.

Lau
Oct 23, 2005, 04:09 PM
If it's any consolation, a blue one is probably the least noticable in my opinion. I've got one, and I very rarely see it. Not that that stops it being any less annoying though, especially on a new computer.

Apple!Freak
Oct 23, 2005, 06:08 PM
Okay, I'm back from the Apple Store. Well, like always, they didn't help for beans. They said because it's a custom build I'm going to need to call 800-My-Apple to request an exchange. Yay for me! :rolleyes:

And now my $50 for next day air shipping was for nothing seeing as I won't have the iMac for at least a week.

Anyway, because I spent two days organizing my files on the new iMac and now have to wipe the drive, does anyone know how I can go about saving everything right as it is, and then loading the (disk image?) on the new iMac when it arrives so everything will be the same?


... Apple's service is REALLY (!) starting to piss me off. More of this crap and I won't be a customer for too much longer, no matter how much I love Apple.

QCassidy352
Oct 23, 2005, 06:22 PM
... Apple's service is REALLY (!) starting to piss me off. More of this crap and I won't be a customer for too much longer, no matter how much I love Apple.

No offense, but I'm not sure what you're complaining about. 1 stuck pixel is really not that big a deal, at happens with all LCDs, not just apple, and they're actually taking it back. What more do you want?

katie ta achoo
Oct 23, 2005, 06:36 PM
have you tried gently massaging it with the eraser end of a pencil?

clink and read (http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:mcsOoQFp9LoJ:www.jeffpatch.com/%3Fpostid%3D98%26replyto%3D11601+stuck+pixel+eraser&hl=en&client=safari)

Apple!Freak
Oct 23, 2005, 06:41 PM
No offense, but I'm not sure what you're complaining about. 1 stuck pixel is really not that big a deal, at happens with all LCDs, not just apple, and they're actually taking it back. What more do you want?

You're not sure what I'm complaining about?!?!

I'll tell you what I'm complaining about. I laid down $1.4 grand for a new iMac that I bought to use as my media center computer. I thought I could live with the dead pixel but 13 hours of watching video later, I discovered it's too much of an anoyance.

I realize it's one pixel but it's there, and I see it! I don't care if it was half a pixel. It's not suppose to be there, and I almost flatend my wallet entirley with this purchase and it better be perfect. End of story.

OneMike
Oct 23, 2005, 06:44 PM
Anybody that says one bad pixel is not bad is crazy. If it's a $2 purchase or a $2000 purchase you still paid to get things how you expected them to be.

If it were me I would've got everything fixed and got my shipping refunded for the time I wasted. If not I would've returned everything and got a full refund. Being that you ordered online you have an advantage as you didn't pay with cash.

You don't have to be rude which I never advice, but just because a company tells you something doesn't mean that you have to settle for it.

I had a simiar problem when the first models of the Imac G5 came out. Long story short. Didn't get what I expected. Took back with intent to return for full refund if I didn't get what I expected to. Left store with what I originally wanted an more without paying another cent. Never raised my voice or was rude, just remained firm on my issue. Money back or give me what I paid for. Simple.

jaw04005
Oct 23, 2005, 06:55 PM
It's sort of ironic but out of the 13 or 14 LCD screens I've purchased for both my home and my family's business, only two have had stuck or dead pixels and they were Apple Cinema displays.

Heh. Stuck/dead pixels are a problem with almost all manufacturers, however Apple is notorious for their strict dead pixel policy. I see one stuck or dead pixel as a FLAW, and I personally can't help but be irritated by them when I'm retouching photos, watching videos, or in general just at the computer for long periods of time.

Just because Apple makes this product, doesn't mean consumers shouldn't demand better return policies. If Dell's online store, Amazon, and other merchants can afford to take the displays back so can the Apple Store.

Demon Hunter
Oct 23, 2005, 06:58 PM
I doubt you'll have much luck, OP... when my brand new iMacG5 rev. B had a busted superdrive the second day I got it (when I called into AppleCare they even said it qualified as DOA) they wouldn't swap my machine...


Why? It was BTO...

From 512MB to 1GB. I guess that RAM was too difficult to swap. :rolleyes: :(

That's interesting Devilot, I had my PowerBook swapped in an Apple Store and it was the same except for RAM also. Was your RAM third-party?

wako
Oct 23, 2005, 07:02 PM
If you raise hell back in the store and talk to a manager they WILL replace it for you....

The mac genius guys really have no restrictions to what they can or cannot do. I have had friends who had the same problem was delt entirely different. One was replaced, the other was repaired. Same problem.

I personally had my PB's latch get knocked out of place which prevented it from being closed properly. I waited for about an hour for help, that the manager offered to replace the whole system just because the latch was knocked out of place. A simple bend towards the right direction would have fixed it but the manager was willing to replace it.

Just go back and speak to a manager.

chucknorris
Oct 23, 2005, 07:11 PM
If you raise hell back in the store and talk to a manager they WILL replace it for you....

The mac genius guys really have no restrictions to what they can or cannot do. I have had friends who had the same problem was delt entirely different. One was replaced, the other was repaired. Same problem.

I personally had my PB's latch get knocked out of place which prevented it from being closed properly. I waited for about an hour for help, that the manager offered to replace the whole system just because the latch was knocked out of place. A simple bend towards the right direction would have fixed it but the manager was willing to replace it.

Just go back and speak to a manager.

I seriously doubt they would ever just replace a BTO (especially with a hard drive upgrade) in the store.

devilot
Oct 23, 2005, 07:28 PM
That's interesting Devilot, I had my PowerBook swapped in an Apple Store and it was the same except for RAM also. Was your RAM third-party?If you read my post again... it was BTO straight from Apple online-- bumping the RAM from 512MB to 1GB was the ONLY modification from stock that I got on my machine. :mad: Buuuuut, I guess I can't really complain because they did eventually fix the optical drive after 3 weeks. :rolleyes: Meanwhile people on MR have much 'worse' issues fixed w/in 3 days. Apple doesn't like me. :(

katie ta achoo
Oct 23, 2005, 07:32 PM
Apple doesn't like me. :(

Vote KT for CFO and Apple will love you!
(wait.. CFO isn't a democracy!)

Yeah, when I went, there was a big sign with your 'tar that said "Devilot76 is a dork!" and it had a mustache and devil horns drawn on it. Also, they drew a hand that was picking your 'tar's nose.

I forgot to take a pic, but I thought it was hilarious. Steve Jobs and I were chillin' next to it, sipping on some starbucks makin' fun of it.

Good times, good times.

Man, that would've been so weird... hahaha

nospleen
Oct 23, 2005, 07:36 PM
Take a picture of the dead pixel and post it here. I want to see how distracting it is. Sorry to hear of your misfortune!:(

MacPassion
Oct 23, 2005, 08:03 PM
No offense, but I'm not sure what you're complaining about. 1 stuck pixel is really not that big a deal, at happens with all LCDs, not just apple, and they're actually taking it back. What more do you want?

I had 3 laptop in my life, at least 5 deskops that I can remember and some other monitors. None of them were Apple and none of them had dead pixel.....

mpopkin
Oct 23, 2005, 08:10 PM
wont work, i had the same problem with my ibook when i bought it, except i had white streaks and they would replace it and after their warranty replacement service messed up my computer 2 times in a row replacing the screen, i went to an apple store and asked to swap hd's (i had a 100gb bto) and they couldnt do it, just demand that they fix it citing that it is new, etc, but most likely they wont, you have to push them against the wall and be direct
good luck

I'll bring it into the Apple Store today and see if they can give me a body swap, and basically just put the HD in a new unit.

I think I can get them to do this seeing as beyond the dead pixel, the body also has a couple of problems. Number 1, the part just above the apple logo in front where the screen meets to body is bent out a little (or warped), and number 2, the body screws don't seem to tighten as well as they should as they leave the two pieces pretty loose.

We'll see what happens today.

skubish
Oct 23, 2005, 08:16 PM
You're not sure what I'm complaining about?!?!

I'll tell you what I'm complaining about. I laid down $1.4 grand for a new iMac that I bought to use as my media center computer. I thought I could live with the dead pixel but 13 hours of watching video later, I discovered it's too much of an anoyance.

I realize it's one pixel but it's there, and I see it! I don't care if it was half a pixel. It's not suppose to be there, and I almost flatend my wallet entirley with this purchase and it better be perfect. End of story.

Honestly 1 stuck pixel is not enough to get worked up about. It is pretty well known issue with LCDs. No company will exchange a display or computer with 1 stuck pixel. I think Apple should make this point clear before you purchase

wdlove
Oct 23, 2005, 08:35 PM
Vote KT for CFO and Apple will love you!
(wait.. CFO isn't a democracy!)

Yeah, when I went, there was a big sign with your 'tar that said "Devilot76 is a dork!" and it had a mustache and devil horns drawn on it. Also, they drew a hand that was picking your 'tar's nose.

I forgot to take a pic, but I thought it was hilarious. Steve Jobs and I were chillin' next to it, sipping on some starbucks makin' fun of it.

Good times, good times.

Man, that would've been so weird... hahaha

It would be awesome to have a friend as CFO of Apple Katie. Just hope that you will remember me.
;)

pubwvj
Oct 23, 2005, 08:57 PM
I don't understand how they could leave a customer out like that. If I buy a computer, and it's defective in one way or another, it's defective and they need to replace it. Right?

Because it is difficult, e.g., very expensive, to produce 100% perfect screens. If every computer screen had to be perfect then the cost of the computers would be several times higher than what they are.

My screen (Pismo) has one stuck pixel. I do professional work. It is NOT a big deal. I know which pixel is stuck and ignore it. Get used to it.

BJNY
Oct 23, 2005, 08:58 PM
Apple!Freak,
Hopefully, your replacement machine won't have MORE than the 1 dead/stuck pixel you're unhappy with now.

QCassidy352
Oct 23, 2005, 09:36 PM
I had 3 laptop in my life, at least 5 deskops that I can remember and some other monitors. None of them were Apple and none of them had dead pixel.....

well then, you're lucky. But it's not like apple makes the LCD panels; stuck pixels are an industry wide problem, and as someone else noted, if companies guaranteed 100% perfect screens, the cost to all of us would go waaaay up.

Jovian9
Oct 23, 2005, 10:50 PM
well then, you're lucky. But it's not like apple makes the LCD panels; stuck pixels are an industry wide problem, and as someone else noted, if companies guaranteed 100% perfect screens, the cost to all of us would go waaaay up.

The cost probably IS going up just a tiny amount every time someone returns their machine with a dead/stuck pixel. Apple probably doesn't eat it, they just include that tiny cost into not-reducing PowerBook prices or iMac prices. My 17" iMac G4 had 3 dead/stuck pixels...I ignored them and the pain went away :)

radiantm3
Oct 23, 2005, 11:14 PM
Because it is difficult, e.g., very expensive, to produce 100% perfect screens. If every computer screen had to be perfect then the cost of the computers would be several times higher than what they are.

My screen (Pismo) has one stuck pixel. I do professional work. It is NOT a big deal. I know which pixel is stuck and ignore it. Get used to it.


Apple computers ARE priced higher than average. You'd expect that if you pay more for apple, you get perfection. Many people consider them a luxury item. The funny thing is, I've owned 2 apple displays, and I've had to return both of them the first time because of stuck pixels. Luckily, the replacements were fine.

With that said, retail stores do not deal with BTO products so it was expected that you would have to ship it back. It sucks, but that is life. At least you know they will take it back.

QCassidy352
Oct 23, 2005, 11:31 PM
Apple computers ARE priced higher than average. You'd expect that if you pay more for apple, you get perfection. Many people consider them a luxury item.

They're priced higher than average, but high enough to expect "perfection?" I don't think so. 3 or more stuck pixels on a "luxury item" is a lot, but I just don't see one as unreasonable. It's not like buying a hand-built Bentley that costs $300k... now on that, I would expect perfection.

evilpenguin21
Oct 23, 2005, 11:50 PM
Stage 1) Blame your bad luck - "I've been waiting for years to take the plunge and buy an Apple and THIS happens. I've seen hundreds of macs and none of them have dead pixels. Curse me and my bad luck."

Stage 2) Blame Apple - "I'm a valued and loyal customer and how dare they treat me this way! I demand a replacement and if they won't help me they can burn in hell"

Stage 3) Accept it and move on - "My monitor has millions and millions of pixels cramed into a ~17" area so it's pretty much a modern marvel that ONLY one or two pixels are bad. I'm just going to use and enjoy my mac and in a few short months time I won't even notice the bad pixels anymore... although i'll prolly need to stick to wallpapers that hide them really well."

Buddy i've been there and I know first hand how angry you are, but there really is nothing you can do. I know it sounds insane and impossible, but just let it go and let the healing process begin.

radiantm3
Oct 24, 2005, 12:08 AM
They're priced higher than average, but high enough to expect "perfection?" I don't think so. 3 or more stuck pixels on a "luxury item" is a lot, but I just don't see one as unreasonable. It's not like buying a hand-built Bentley that costs $300k... now on that, I would expect perfection.

I know stuck/dead pixels are a common thing and I don't expect apple to ship flawless displays 100% of the time. But I do expect a bit better quality control, and the customer's option to return a product that they are not satisfied with it. I spent 3 grand on my 30" display. That is a lot of money to put down. A flaw is a flaw. Displays with flaws should sell at a discounted price for those who don't really care and would rather save a few bucks.

CalGrunt
Oct 24, 2005, 12:09 AM
Hmmmmm.......I wonder what the percentage of Mac displays have dead pixels? If 80% of the displays that come off of their assembly lines have bad pixels, than I may agree with the above poster and just accept it as a part of life. But...........................if, say "only" 50% of the displays that come off their line has bad pixels, than I would DEMAND to have one of the other 50% that don't have ANY bad pixels, for if I wanted a bargin base low end computer, I sure as hell wouldn't be buying a Mac.

Counterfit
Oct 24, 2005, 12:32 AM
My screen (Pismo) has one stuck pixel. I do professional work. It is NOT a big deal. I know which pixel is stuck and ignore it. Get used to it.
My PB has two stuck pixels, and the only time I ever notice them, is when I play Medal of Honor. No other games, just MoH.

Apple!Freak
Oct 24, 2005, 01:14 PM
I called 1-800-My-Apple and after sitting on hold for 84 (freakin!) minutes I got a sales rep that wanted to transfer me to tech support, but I denied his request to transfer me and got a supervisor instead. The supervisor agreed that I could return the iMac and e-mailed me the necessary return labels.

So, I'm sending it back tomorrow and getting a full credit to my card (including the shipping I paid for). They offered to exchange it, but I didn't want to wait the seven days they said it would take. Not to mention the fact I'm willing to bet money that the defects to this iMac occurred while someone installed the bigger hard drive.

I just called three Apple Stores around me and neither of them have the new iMac in stock (I don't even care about the bigger HD at this point, and besides, I could use the money to buy that stick of 1GB DDR2 RAM I wanted for this iMac). So, I guess I'm screwed and Apple is losing my allegiance.

What do you guys suggest? Think I should wait a couple days until an Apple Store around me has one in stock, or, wait seven days and risk getting another defective iMac with no return policy (because it's BTO)?

Seems like 90GB of space has been causing me some serious problems.

Apple!Freak
Oct 24, 2005, 01:18 PM
Anyway, because I spent two days organizing my files on the new iMac and now have to wipe the drive, does anyone know how I can go about saving everything right as it is, and then loading the (disk image?) on the new iMac when it arrives so everything will be the same?

????anyone????

razorme
Oct 24, 2005, 01:34 PM
I called 1-800-My-Apple and after sitting on hold for 84 (freakin!) minutes I got a sales rep that wanted to transfer me to tech support, but I denied his request to transfer me and got a supervisor instead. The supervisor agreed that I could return the iMac and e-mailed me the necessary return labels.

So, I'm sending it back tomorrow and getting a full credit to my card (including the shipping I paid for). They offered to exchange it, but I didn't want to wait the seven days they said it would take. Not to mention the fact I'm willing to bet money that the defects to this iMac occurred while someone installed the bigger hard drive.

I just called three Apple Stores around me and neither of them have the new iMac in stock (I don't even care about the bigger HD at this point, and besides, I could use the money to buy that stick of 1GB DDR2 RAM I wanted for this iMac). So, I guess I'm screwed and Apple is losing my allegiance.

What do you guys suggest? Think I should wait a couple days until an Apple Store around me has one in stock, or, wait seven days and risk getting another defective iMac with no return policy (because it's BTO)?

Seems like 90GB of space has been causing me some serious problems.


Did you try massaging the pixel to see if you could get it unstuck? I would save up some more ca$h and get the 20"... a much better screen.

katie ta achoo
Oct 24, 2005, 01:46 PM
First, I'd try to "massage" out the stuck pixel..

if that doesn't work, I'd return it and get the stock iMac and put more RAM in it. If you ever need more space, just get an external FW HD.


In all, ONE stuck pixel isn't horrible.
if your resolution is 1280*768, there are 983,040 total pixels.
Modern technology doesn't support 100% displays having all 983,040 perfect. Maybe in 40 years, when LCDs are horribly old school, and we all use holographs..

I highly doubt the pixel got stuck while installing a HD...

and lastly- dude. it's ONE pixel. You're making such a huge deal out of it that you'd think the whole screen was busted. IIRC, apple's return policy on dead/stuck pixels is 5 or more, and you're getting it returned for ONE. (one stuck pixel on a 1280*768 monitor is 1.01*10^-6%, btw)

Jovian9
Oct 24, 2005, 01:47 PM
????anyone????
Your sig states you have 3 Macs, though I assume 2 now that you're shipping one back.
Use Carbon Copy Cloner and clone the boot up partition on your new iMac to an unused partition on one of your other Macs. Then do it again when you get your replacement.

Le Big Mac
Oct 24, 2005, 02:43 PM
It's not like buying a hand-built Bentley that costs $300k... now on that, I would expect perfection.

Even then, I'll bet if you looked hard you could find a paint blemish or something in the leather, or the wood. Or something else.

pubwvj
Oct 24, 2005, 05:01 PM
What do you guys suggest?

I think you should get a ViewMaster instead. Click-Click-Click...

john_satc
Oct 24, 2005, 05:20 PM
If you raise hell back in the store and talk to a manager they WILL replace it for you....

The mac genius guys really have no restrictions to what they can or cannot do. I have had friends who had the same problem was delt entirely different. One was replaced, the other was repaired. Same problem.

I personally had my PB's latch get knocked out of place which prevented it from being closed properly. I waited for about an hour for help, that the manager offered to replace the whole system just because the latch was knocked out of place. A simple bend towards the right direction would have fixed it but the manager was willing to replace it.

Just go back and speak to a manager.


I don't know what kind of manager you spoke to but at the Birmingham/Bullring Apple store the manager was evil! He refused to give me a refund on a 30 game which didn't work on my iBook, even though a guy that worked at the store said it would. It took me over an hour to convince him to, whilst building up a long queue behind me and several Apple store workers practically ganging up on me.

Zoowatch
Oct 24, 2005, 06:00 PM
while i love apple products a lot and is prepared to pay a premium for that

i am sometimes a little disappointed by the after-sale support policy of Apple in the UK.

everything seems sweet and nice before i pay for it... but once they've shipped the product to u... their staffs seem to be one step above u and eveything is really at their mercy...

this is even more pronounced when u are trying to seek technical support for hardware faults after the 90-day period...

they refuse to discuss with me the hardware problems over the phone... unless i first agree to pay 35 pounds which will be refunded to me only if they deem the problem to be a genuine hardware problems

the experience of calling apple support can be exhausting (and sometimes frustrating) when u have to go thru all those basic troubleshooting steps which u already know and tried before...

also, to get to speak to a senior supervisor / customer service officer can be a little difficult at the apple helpline in the UK

skubish
Oct 24, 2005, 06:35 PM
Murphy's law predicts you will now receive an iMac with 3 dead pixels...

simon-says
Oct 24, 2005, 06:40 PM
I cannot believe you are complaining so much over 1 dead pixel. I have 1 dead pixel on my Sony Trinitron monitor at work, and it does not bother me. I never even notice it. I spend a minimum of 20 hours on this machine a week and I have been using this machine for over a year. I'm not blind I have 20/13 vision, and I always have a white background. I do not see how 1 dead pixel can bother you so bad. Really I don't see how you can pay it much attention unless you are right on top of the monitor. I think you should try suggested methods before returning it.

Laser47
Oct 24, 2005, 06:46 PM
Thats funny.
Murphy's law predicts you will now receive an iMac with 3 dead pixels...
I have 3 lcd monitors a 3 year old sony laptop,a new ibook screen, and a hp monitor. The only one with a stuck pixel is the hp and it has a pixel on the far right that is stuck to blue. After reading this thread i tried massaging it and now the pixel is gone!.

Apple!Freak
Oct 24, 2005, 08:41 PM
Guys, listen.

For all of you that think 1 pixel is no-big-deal. It might not be to you, but it is to me. People are different (if you haven't noticed already). One dead pixel bothers me. End of story. If you don't like it, I'm sorry. I paid a lot of money (at least to me) for a product that I expect to perform without flaw. There really is nothing more to say about this. And regardless, it's not just the one dead pixel. The latch connecting the front part of the case to the back part, is broken as it's so loose I could actually pull it off with one finger (even tech support at Apple said that is not how it should be). And not to mention, the warped part of the body where the screen and case meets just above the Apple logo.

Also, I did try to massage it out, no luck.

cyberone
Oct 24, 2005, 09:05 PM
apple: I hear you loud and clear.

dead pixels are my biggest fear with ordering online, thats why I dont order online.

I would only buy a PB if I can check its screen on the spot or if the reseller guarantees me to run a dead pixel test before handing the device over.

fully agree with you that the whole computing experience is disturbed by such miserable dead pixels and that it is the company's reliability to deliver flawless quality for a lot of money.

fight for it, cancel your credit card payment or whatever, but I would not accept it.

but then again, next time make sure you find a way to check the device before you actually hand over the money ...

CalGrunt
Oct 24, 2005, 10:14 PM
Apple, I'm also with ya a 100%. The Mac is NOT a low-end computer. A Mac to the computer world is no different than a BMW is in the automotive world, for they are both marketed as more than what they are. They both occupy the high-end luxury/performance niche in their respective categories, and as such, you should not compromise on what you expect.

I've been driving BMW's just about all my life, which is now going on 61 years. I currently drive an M5, and I'll tell ya this. When I picked up the car at the dealer, I did a walk around. You can bet your bippy that if there was a dent anywhere on that car, I would have raised a stink.

I have a 20" iMac on order, and if I found a dead pixel on the screen, I would handle it the same way as if I discovered a dent on my new M5 upon delivery.

I can't believe the complacency of some here in this thread. Guys, we are paying a premium price for our Macs and we should hold Apple to the same standards as they market...................and to accept anything less is basically telling Apple, "Ya know what. Your QC on your displays is fine with us. Yeah, a few monitors come out with dead pixels, but it doesn't matter. We'll accept them anyway.............and ya know why? Because we like ya, and we fell for the BS line that says, "Hey, don't expect all the pixels to work, for if they did, we would have to raise our prices" !!!"

No...........a better answer would be........."Get it right or we'll stop buying your computers".

Believe me, I understand the love affair that we have for this company, but don't let it blind you into a state of complacency by accepting that which is less than what you are expecting, and expecting a monitor with all the pixels working is NOT an over-the-top expectation.

Apple!Freak
Oct 24, 2005, 11:16 PM
Thanks, CalGrunt and cyberone!

CalGrunt, you nailed exactly how I feel!

cyberone
Oct 24, 2005, 11:39 PM
I have a 20" iMac on order, and if I found a dead pixel on the screen, I would handle it the same way as if I discovered a dent on my new M5 upon delivery.



how exactly would you handle it? I'm not new to complaining, but whats the most promising tactic? obviously apple tries to refuse responsability ...

CalGrunt
Oct 25, 2005, 12:15 AM
how exactly would you handle it? I'm not new to complaining, but whats the most promising tactic? obviously apple tries to refuse responsability ...

Well, cyber, being that I've been in retail all my life, I kinda have a handle on the general mentality of retail organizations and manufactures and how they work.

First off, I wouldn't get upset........no matter how much I was seething on the inside. My first reaction would be that I would assume that Apple would make it right, so I'd just point out the defect.........that's it. I would not make any demands for a replacement, repair or anything. All I would do is point out the defect, throw the ball totally in their court and not say anything and very politely wait for a response. Once you point out the defect, don't say anything. Wait for their response.

I would think that in most instances like this, they would come up with a solution that would be satisfactory..........."Whoa.......bummer.......here, let me get ya a new one, or an RA (return authorization) for you to get a new one......for it's obviously defective.

Now they may not do that, but may say, "Yeah, so what would you like us to do about this?" Perfect........they asked a valid question and they deserve an equally valid answer. "I'd like one that is not defective".

Or.......they may say this, not likely, but they may.......maybe not in these exact words, but the implied meaning would be the same. "So..............what in the hell are you complaining about. It's just one damn pixel that's not working. You're lucky it's not 5 dead pixels." In that instance, I would ask for an immediate replacement. If the person that I was talking to wouldn't accommodate me, I'd escalate it to the next level. And if that person couldn't accommodate me, I'd take it to the next level, and continue that process until I got what I paid for. Believe me, somebody in the food chain WILL take responsibility and make it right for you.

But........I wouldn't get angry, or let my emotions get the best of me. Stay calm, but firm in communicating EXACTLY what you, the customer, expects, and put it in such a way, that your expectations are NOT out of line in the least, and that all you really want is what you paid for, and what Apple has so successfully marketed in their marketing campaigns, which is a computer that is heads above anything else that is available in the market........a high end luxury computer that you are willing to pay premium dollars for, but not willing to expect something less than what Apple has always marketed, for you have been a devoted Apple customer for years, your whole family uses Macs, and you have totally been satisfied in the past, and this is first time that an issue like this has ever come up, and you have total confidence that Apple will do the right thing, and that is, to protect the good will that they have cultivated with you over the years.

generik
Oct 25, 2005, 04:15 AM
No way, my advice to the OP, raise hell if you want to. Get the damned pixel fixed. Don't be misled by the others in this forum, because while they may own shares in NASDAQ/APPL, they sure as hell *aren't* helping you.

If everything fails, just leave the box at the store, ask politely to see the manager, tell them to keep the box while pull out the phone dialing for the attorney general/local consumer rights body/credit card helpline.

You are not obligated to accept DEFECTIVE goods.

Because it is difficult, e.g., very expensive, to produce 100% perfect screens. If every computer screen had to be perfect then the cost of the computers would be several times higher than what they are.

My screen (Pismo) has one stuck pixel. I do professional work. It is NOT a big deal. I know which pixel is stuck and ignore it. Get used to it.

The Pismo is made in.. 1999?

Manufacturing processes have WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY improved in 6 years my friend.

Besides, not to deny the fact that Apples are generally a magnitude more expensive than competiting PCs too. Wah? Charge high prices but can't maintain quality?

In the past 5 years I owned 2 Thinkpads... and went through 2 Eizo LCD upgrades, and finally using a NEC 2080UX+.

5 LCD panels my friend, *ZERO* defects so far.

If I get one tomorrow I sure as hell am *not* taking the downgrade.

generik
Oct 25, 2005, 04:21 AM
Or.......they may say this, not likely, but they may.......maybe not in these exact words, but the implied meaning would be the same. "So..............what in the hell are you complaining about. It's just one damn pixel that's not working. You're lucky it's not 5 dead pixels." In that instance, I would ask for an immediate replacement. If the person that I was talking to wouldn't accommodate me, I'd escalate it to the next level. And if that person couldn't accommodate me, I'd take it to the next level, and continue that process until I got what I paid for. Believe me, somebody in the food chain WILL take responsibility and make it right..

Strawman argument. You give Apple (or any service staff) way too much credit, you are assuming 1) they want to help you, 2) they will actually be so blunt as to say that.

Instead of that response how about this? "Sorry sir, our sales policy explicitly states that returns may only be processed for defects that exceed 5 defective pixels off the centre of the monitor, or 2 defects near the centre. Your LCD's performance is perfectly within manufacturing tolerance." No acceptable? "In that case sir, may I take it that you wish to return this product? Please do note that all returns are subject to a 15% restocking fee"

What are you going to say now?

Btw if I am apple I will gladly take the defective unit back, put it in another box, and probably sell it refurbished to the next sucker.

Profiteering through restocking fees alone!

CalGrunt
Oct 25, 2005, 09:34 AM
Strawman argument. You give Apple (or any service staff) way too much credit, you are assuming 1) they want to help you, 2) they will actually be so blunt as to say that.

Instead of that response how about this? "Sorry sir, our sales policy explicitly states that returns may only be processed for defects that exceed 5 defective pixels off the centre of the monitor, or 2 defects near the centre. Your LCD's performance is perfectly within manufacturing tolerance." No acceptable? "In that case sir, may I take it that you wish to return this product? Please do note that all returns are subject to a 15% restocking fee"

What are you going to say now?



I'd say, "You, sir, may be willing to lose a devoted Apple customer over not accepting responsibility for a defective product, and believe me, dead pixels by definition means that something is not quite right. This may be within YOUR manufacturing tolerances, but is sure isn't within my purchasing tolerances. What I want is either a replacement or this to be fixed. If all you are going to do is take the easy way out by offering me the "privilege" of returning the product and incurring a 15% restocking fee, thereby losing a customer, let me see if your boss is also willing to lose an Apple customer that has spent 10's of thousands of dollars with you over the years, let alone, lose a customer that your company has spent millions of advertising dollars in the effort to try and get me to buy your computers. You are squandering your companies resources and even though YOU may not realize that, I have no doubt that someone in upper management will."

And like I said, if you don't get satisfaction with who your talking to, escalate it to the next higher level. You very well may have to get beyond the sales staff or service staff level to get any kind of cooperation, but believe me, someone in upper management WILL solve this issue for you.

So yes, I believe that you can get what you pay for, but unfortunately, I also agree that your unit will more than likely be restocked and sold to someone else in the hopes that they will be complacent enough to accept a product that is defective.

If, in fact, anything under 5 dead pixels is considered within their manufacturing tolerances, than they better state so in their advertising, even if it's in small print, because if they don't do that, and then charge someone 15% for restocking for the return of said product, then they have some legal issues that they're going to eventually have to deal with.

CalGrunt
Oct 25, 2005, 09:41 AM
One more thing. The very first thing that I would say if I was presented with a response like what was presented by Generik, would be, "Well, if that is your policy, why wasn't that policy communicated to me BEFORE you made the sale rather than afterwards and then charging me 15% for something that I had no idea about? Does what you are doing sound like the right thing to do?"

QCassidy352
Oct 25, 2005, 10:40 AM
You are not obligated to accept DEFECTIVE goods.

True, but it's interesting that you would describe a product that is completely useable as "defective." I would say that "defective" describes a good that is unusable, or the use of which is seriously impaired. One dead pixel in no way makes a screen approach that standard.

thirdkind
Oct 25, 2005, 11:06 AM
True, but it's interesting that you would describe a product that is completely useable as "defective." I would say that "defective" describes a good that is unusable, or the use of which is seriously impaired.

If a dealer delivered a new car to you with a side panel sticking out and they said it couldn't be repaired, would you consider it defective? It's useable, after all.

I'm currently battling my Honda dealer over such a problem. A side panel on the driver's side of my new 2006 Civic is jutting out. It doesn't look like they'll be able to fix it. My wife's new Civic, bought on the same day from the same dealership, is flawless. Including the two new cars I just bought from them, I've purchased five new Hondas in as many years (for myself and my wife). I expect the same quality I've seen in the past. If they can't deliver, it's going to be an uncomfortable situation for everyone involved.

I'm planning on buying a 30" cinema display. It has 4 million+ pixels. If I can't find a vendor who's willing to do a dead pixel check or accept a return if even one of them is stuck on or dead, it will probably sway me to consider a much less expensive Planar or Dell in the 24" range. Actually, I could buy two 24" Dells for less than the cost of one Apple 30".

Damn right I expect it to be perfect.

CalGrunt
Oct 25, 2005, 11:14 AM
True, but it's interesting that you would describe a product that is completely useable as "defective." I would say that "defective" describes a good that is unusable, or the use of which is seriously impaired. One dead pixel in no way makes a screen approach that standard.

Huh? What if you went and plunked down 60 grand for a brand new BMW. And what if you went to pick it up, all excited about your brand new car that you've been salavating on for over a year. You pick it up and it has a small dent in the hood. It's not real noticeable, but you can see it, and what if you pointed that out to your salesman, and he said, "Yeah......so what. The car is still drivable isn't it? What are you complaining about?"

Would you walk out of that dealership a happy camper??

yg17
Oct 25, 2005, 11:33 PM
There's a difference between a car and an LCD. It is not normal for any car to have a dent or weird looking side panel. One or 2 dead pixels is completley normal when it comes to LCDs. Costs of LCD manufacturing would multiply greatly if manufacturers had to check every single monitor to make sure every single pixel worked. That, plus the amount of LCD panels that would be thrown away would be extremley epensive. And this is one pixel, out of a million or so, that's dead. I think a 1:1,000,000 ratio of dead pixels to good pixels is pretty darn good.

That said, my PowerBook does not have a single dead pixel. Neither did my iBook. And if they did, would I raise hell? Certainly not over one or 2 dead pixels. I don't know how you guys notice it either, my Samsung 15" LCD has a single dead pixel, and I can't even notice it unless I intentionally look for it. One single dead pixel out of 786,432 total pixels and I can hardly notice it. I don't know why you guys with higher res displays and more overall pixels are making such a huge deal when you probably can hardly see it either.

If a dealer delivered a new car to you with a side panel sticking out and they said it couldn't be repaired, would you consider it defective? It's useable, after all.

I'm currently battling my Honda dealer over such a problem. A side panel on the driver's side of my new 2006 Civic is jutting out. It doesn't look like they'll be able to fix it. My wife's new Civic, bought on the same day from the same dealership, is flawless. Including the two new cars I just bought from them, I've purchased five new Hondas in as many years (for myself and my wife). I expect the same quality I've seen in the past. If they can't deliver, it's going to be an uncomfortable situation for everyone involved.

I'm planning on buying a 30" cinema display. It has 4 million+ pixels. If I can't find a vendor who's willing to do a dead pixel check or accept a return if even one of them is stuck on or dead, it will probably sway me to consider a much less expensive Planar or Dell in the 24" range. Actually, I could buy two 24" Dells for less than the cost of one Apple 30".

Damn right I expect it to be perfect.

cyberone
Oct 25, 2005, 11:37 PM
didnt canon just announce a new LCD technology which is guarantueed dead pixel free?

here another article of interest:

http://www.cnet.com.au/hometheatre/tvs/0,39026023,40004163,00.htm

QCassidy352
Oct 25, 2005, 11:51 PM
There's a difference between a car and an LCD. It is not normal for any car to have a dent or weird looking side panel.

Exactly, thank you. These car analogies just aren't apt. A dead pixel may not be intended, but it's not abnormal, either. Sometimes it just happens, even when the manufacturer has done everything that it should have. If a brand new car had a physical disformity, however, the maker did something negligent, either during or after production.

In legal terms, the difference is between strict liability (holding someone responsible for the outcome of their actions, regardless of whether they did anything *wrong*) and negligence-based liability (even if the outcome is bad, a person is only held responsible if their actions were negligent).

I'm all for holding manufacturers liable for problems with their products that are caused by negligence (a dent in a car, for example), but not for problems that arise even in correctly manufactured goods.

If you really think that 1 dead pixel justifies an exchange, I hope you're prepared to pay more than you do now for anything with an LCD, but it doesn't sound like you guys are. You want higher quality control at the same prices... the market doesn't work that way.

edit: oh, and also, if you look at my last comment, I wasn't saying that just because a product is useable one automatically has no legitimate complaint, as CalGrunt seemed to infer. I was saying that if it's usable (and that usability is very slightly or not at all impaired) then I wouldn't call the product "defective." No, I wouldn't be happy with the dent on a new BMW, but the car is certainly not "defective." It's imperfect.

CalGrunt
Oct 26, 2005, 12:20 AM
Exactly, thank you. These car analogies just aren't apt. A dead pixel may not be intended, but it's not abnormal, either.

I guess, Q, that that is our main difference of opinion here, because I perceive a dead pixel as abnormal. I think that an LCD monitor should be just as "normal", without anything wrong (and again, to me, a dead pixel is "wrong") than any other product that I would purchase.

But I guess that most all of the people that purchase computers feel the way you do, for if they didn't, than I would have to assume that Apple's lawyers have consulted with upper management, and would have suggested that a disclaimer stating that 1 to 5 dead pixels on their displays is considered "normal".

CalGrunt
Oct 26, 2005, 12:25 AM
(why can't I edit my posts. I hit the edit button and nothing happens.....so........... the following is an edit to the post above.....sorry)

......have suggested that a disclaimer in all of their print advertising, in small print, stating that 1 to 5 dead pixels on their displays is considered "normal".

QCassidy352
Oct 26, 2005, 12:41 AM
I guess, Q, that that is our main difference of opinion here, because I perceive a dead pixel as abnormal. I think that an LCD monitor should be just as "normal", without anything wrong (and again, to me, a dead pixel is "wrong") than any other product that I would purchase.

Well, that's a fair position to take. A stuck pixel is certainly a "flaw" in the sense that it's something that doesn't *have* to be there. Certainly, it's true that LCD's can, and often do, have nothing wrong with them whatsoever. It's just that the way I see it, the only way to guarantee that LCD's will be "flawless" is for the companies that make them to have higher quality control, and reject all panels that have *any* faults. And while that could be done, it would drive up costs, and those costs would be passed along to us, the consumers.

I'd rather pay $799 for a 20" ACD and accept the risk of having one or two stuck/dead pixels than pay $999 for a panel guaranteed to be flawless. (Ironically, I got mine when it was first released, so I paid $1299 for a 20" with a stuck pixel, :p but that's neither here nor there.)

All that said, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and ultimately, I think that you're right in saying that if you go high enough up, someone at apple will make an exception to the policy and replace that panel just to end the hassle and keep a customer happy. Just be aware that the cost of that replacement is being passed along to the consumers somewhere down the line.

Anyway, despite the fact that I think Apple's policy is reasonable, I hope it works out for the original poster in this thread because everybody should be happy with their mac. :)

cyberone
Oct 26, 2005, 12:53 AM
what kind of fuzzy maths is that: 200 dollars extra for a guaranteed pixel free screen? you sound like that chief US-politician: spreading fears without knowing the facts.

it depends on the eyesight.

somebody may just not see a dead pixel whereas somebody with sharp eyesight feels pretty much disturbed by those bright spots.

I feel very much disturbed and if a company is able to produce dead pixel free screens I simply want one of those.

all it takes is some extra QC which most certainly wouldnt inflate the end price.

CalGrunt
Oct 26, 2005, 01:03 AM
Well, that's a fair position to take. A stuck pixel is certainly a "flaw" in the sense that it's something that doesn't *have* to be there. Certainly, it's true that LCD's can, and often do, have nothing wrong with them whatsoever. It's just that the way I see it, the only way to guarantee that LCD's will be "flawless" is for the companies that make them to have higher quality control, and reject all panels that have *any* faults. And while that could be done, it would drive up costs, and those costs would be passed along to us, the consumers.


Q, I totally agree with you that if you QC'd every LCD and only accepted those that didn't have any dead pixels, than the cost of those LCD's "MAY" rise. I have no idea what their built in percentage of failure rate is and what cost would be acceptable, so I really don't know if Apple would feel compelled to raise their prices............but they may.

But that's not my argument. Apple is selling a premium luxury high-end computer at a premium price. That's the way they are marketed. They are not marketed as a budget line of computers. So..................the general public, I would think, thinks that whatever they buy from Apple, should not have any flaws. Now if Apple had a disclaimer in their advertising stating what I said above, than I wouldn't take issue or ever suggest that anyone try to return the product. But.........there is no such disclaimer...........and so, in my mind, a customer would have every right to return the product in exchange of one that doesn't have any flaws, and I would think that there are more monitors that don't have flaws than those that do, and that fact alone would propel me over the concept that whatever I get is just the luck of the draw and I should accept whatever I draw I get.

Vanilla
Oct 26, 2005, 02:19 AM
I completely agree with Apple!freak and CalGrunt here. One dead pixel on a screen you are viewing every day is a complete and utter pain. Yes, you can train yourself to ignore/accomodate it but as far as I'm concerned after spending thousands I should not be in a situation where that is my only option.

It is for this reason that I have studiously rejected buying online, buying instead from an Apple Store (London, Regent Street) and a local reseller for my iMac and PowerBook. The iMac is a stock configuration and the store has a 14 day return policy, which was a great comfort. The Powerbook is a BTO but I reached an agreement in advance with the reseller for a potential return, which thankfully I never needed.

So my advice would be to accept the offer of a refund from Apple online and purchase from a reseller where you can have a quiet word first, in advance of a purchase to establish an understanding should you need to return it.

If you really want the current BTO options I would suggest waiting for the next iteration of the iMac where the current BTO options are likely to become standard configs anyway.

Vanilla

CalGrunt
Oct 26, 2005, 02:15 PM
Well, that's a fair position to take. A stuck pixel is certainly a "flaw" in the sense that it's something that doesn't *have* to be there. Certainly, it's true that LCD's can, and often do, have nothing wrong with them whatsoever. It's just that the way I see it, the only way to guarantee that LCD's will be "flawless" is for the companies that make them to have higher quality control, and reject all panels that have *any* faults. And while that could be done, it would drive up costs, and those costs would be passed along to us, the consumers.

Just be aware that the cost of that replacement is being passed along to the consumers somewhere down the line.



Here's a view from a little different perspective.

Being that most of here have read about monitors having dead pixels and yet many other reports of no dead pixels whatsoever, I would imagine that, for most of us, if we ordered a new iMac or notebook, and we finally got it in our hot little hands, and with much excited anticipation, we unpacked our new baby, plugged it in and looked at the screen, and when the screen lit up we looked at it and found, lo and behold.........NO DEAD PIXELS !!! Our screens are perfect............and guess what? We didn't have to pay a premium for our perfect screen without any dead pixels !!!! And ya know why? Because some complacent schmuck got his computer with dead pixels but accepted it without returning it as defective............Thank God for them, because if it wasn't for them, I would have had to pay a higher price for my flawless LCD.

Just a little different view of the same argument, no?

The way I look at it is this. If two LCD manufactures advertised their LCD's. One manufacturer clearly stated in their advertising that customers may receive a flawd LCD with dead pixels and that if the dead pixel count was below 5, they had to accept said product, for it falls withing the manufacturing tolerances. That LCD cost 500 bucks.

Another LCD manufacturer said in their advertising that they will guarantee that their LCD's will not have any dead pixels and if you received one that did, they would exchange it, no questions asked...........and that LCD cost 10% more, hell, lets even say it would cost 15% more. For me, I would GLADLY pay an additional 10 to 15% more to buy something from a manufacturer that will stand behind the quality of their product. Wouldn't you???

All I'm saying is that Apple should clearly state in their advertising that 5 or less dead pixels does NOT constitute a product as being defective, but to tell us their stance on this AFTER we already purchased the product is not playing on the up and up. Why doesn't Apple do this? It's obvious......... it would cost them sales.

Some are more sensitive to this dead pixel issue than others. We all have different expectation levels and different tolerances for things that are not perfect. So fine, if you can pay top dollar for a computer and accept a flawed LCD and live with it, great...............but don't get on someone else's case who find themselves unable NOT to stare at that dead pixel.

aristobrat
Oct 26, 2005, 02:56 PM
All I'm saying is that Apple should clearly state in their advertising that 5 or less dead pixels does NOT constitute a product as being defective, but to tell us their stance on this AFTER we already purchased the product is not playing on the up and up. Why doesn't Apple do this? It's obvious......... it would cost them sales.
Why would Apple put their dead-pixel policy in their advertising when Sony, Dell, Acer, IBM, (basically, .. nobody else) doesn't?

Each one of those companies puts out "luxury models" that can be more expensive than an Apple PB.

displaced
Oct 26, 2005, 03:07 PM
True, but it's interesting that you would describe a product that is completely useable as "defective." I would say that "defective" describes a good that is unusable, or the use of which is seriously impaired. One dead pixel in no way makes a screen approach that standard.

Hehe. That made me smile :)

Wouldn't a product that's 'defective' be a product that exhibits a 'defect'?

Is a stuck-pixel a defect? I'd imagine so.

I would hazard a guess that for every screen with a stuck pixel that gets noticed, and whose owner requests a return, there's probably a whole bunch more whose stuck pixels go unnoticed or whose owners don't mind.

Especially with the G5 being an 'all-in-one' -- no chance of replacing the screen separately to the whole system -- I would hope that Apple would be a little more generous in their returns policy. Indeed, it seems like they have been by authorising the return.

I'm planning on buying the Dell 2005FPW for my Mac Mini and PC to share. It uses the exact same LCD panel as the Apple display. I'll be sure to buy using a credit card (thus assuring me the right to return), and will confirm with Dell that I may return the screen if unhappy.

mattraehl
Oct 26, 2005, 03:08 PM
You all are certianly free to get all in a huff about a dead pixel.

That being said- Last year I bought my first Mac, an iBook G4, and it has a dead pixel in the middle (horizontally) of the screen, 1/4 of the way up from the bottom. It's a fairly prominent location for a dead pixel. I notice it about once a month. Honestly, if it bothered me, or detracted from my computing experience, it would have returned it. But it doesn't. I am so enthusiastic about what a great computing experience Apple has put together, I wouldn't want to cost Apple more money for a problem I basically never notice. Anyways, that's my take.

Keep in mind, if you ditch Apple and go with some other company, you may well buy the next day shipping, and get a computer whose monitor has a dead pixel anyways!

Finally, what's all this buisness about Apple not dealing with BTO machines? I upgraded the HD size, and got BT and AE for the iBook, and they were happy to help me at the Apple store when my HD died. They even shipped it to be repaired for me.

Vanilla
Oct 26, 2005, 03:20 PM
Here's a view from a little different perspective.

Being that most of here have read about monitors having dead pixels and yet many other reports of no dead pixels whatsoever, I would imagine that, for most of us, if we ordered a new iMac or notebook, and we finally got it in our hot little hands, and with much excited anticipation, we unpacked our new baby, plugged it in and looked at the screen, and when the screen lit up we looked at it and found, lo and behold.........NO DEAD PIXELS !!! Our screens are perfect............and guess what? We didn't have to pay a premium for our perfect screen without any dead pixels !!!! And ya know why? Because some complacent schmuck got his computer with dead pixels but accepted it without returning it as defective............Thank God for them, because if it wasn't for them, I would have had to pay a higher price for my flawless LCD.

Just a little different view of the same argument, no?

The way I look at it is this. If two LCD manufactures advertised their LCD's. One manufacturer clearly stated in their advertising that customers may receive a flawd LCD with dead pixels and that if the dead pixel count was below 5, they had to accept said product, for it falls withing the manufacturing tolerances. That LCD cost 500 bucks.

Another LCD manufacturer said in their advertising that they will guarantee that their LCD's will not have any dead pixels and if you received one that did, they would exchange it, no questions asked...........and that LCD cost 10% more, hell, lets even say it would cost 15% more. For me, I would GLADLY pay an additional 10 to 15% more to buy something from a manufacturer that will stand behind the quality of their product. Wouldn't you???

All I'm saying is that Apple should clearly state in their advertising that 5 or less dead pixels does NOT constitute a product as being defective, but to tell us their stance on this AFTER we already purchased the product is not playing on the up and up. Why doesn't Apple do this? It's obvious......... it would cost them sales.

Some are more sensitive to this dead pixel issue than others. We all have different expectation levels and different tolerances for things that are not perfect. So fine, if you can pay top dollar for a computer and accept a flawed LCD and live with it, great...............but don't get on someone else's case who find themselves unable NOT to stare at that dead pixel.

That encapsulates perfectly the view that I and many others share. Well done for a well crafted response. I would just expand it a touch to say that not just Apple, but EVERY computer manufacturer should clearly state their pixel policy in their advertising and the fact they don't is I am sure entirely down to the reason you describe.

Vanilla

CalGrunt
Oct 26, 2005, 03:20 PM
Why would Apple put their dead-pixel policy in their advertising when Sony, Dell, Acer, IBM, (basically, .. nobody else) doesn't?

Each one of those companies puts out "luxury models" that can be more expensive than an Apple PB.

Fine, don't put it in the advertising. But then don't tell a customer who has already purchased a computer and is dissatisfied because his new monitor has a few dead pixels that he can't return it for an exchange because Apple considers any monitor that has less than 5 dead pixels is not defective.

If, in fact, Apple is standing behind their product and doing the exchanges, great. They don't need to make a disclaimer in their advertising. But, if they are not going to honor an exchange without a 15% restocking fee, then they better well darn put it in their advertising, because from a legal standpoint, they are putting themselves at risk, and believe me, using an example of what other manufactures are doing or not doing, will not be considered as a valid defensive argument.

Fireburst
Oct 26, 2005, 04:14 PM
The official Apple policy is found at http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=22194

Many Apple products use active-matrix LCD panels, including the iMac (Flat Panel), iBook, recent PowerBook computers, and Apple Cinema displays. In addition to being slim and light, active-matrix LCD technology provides customers with many visual performance advantages when compared to traditional cathode-ray tube- (CRT) based displays, such as increased brightness, sharpness, and contrast ratio.

Active-matrix LCD technology uses rows and columns of addressable locations (pixels) that render text and images on screen. Each pixel location has three separate subpixels (red, green and blue) that allow the image to be rendered in full color. Each subpixel has a corresponding transistor responsible for turning the subpixel on or off.

There are typically millions of these subpixels on an LCD display. For example, the LCD panel used in the Apple Cinema HD display is made up of 2.3 million pixels and 6.9 million red, green, and blue subpixels. Occasionally, a transistor does not work perfectly, which may result in the affected subpixel being turned on (bright) or turned off (dark). With the millions of subpixels on a display, it is quite possible to have a low number of faulty transistors on an LCD. Therefore, a certain number of subpixel anomalies is considered acceptable. Rejecting all but perfect LCD panels would significantly increase the retail price for products using LCD displays. These factors apply to all manufacturers using LCD technology--not just Apple products.

If you suspect your display contains a high number of pixel anomalies, take your Apple product to an Apple Authorized Service Provider for closer examination. There may be a charge for the evaluation.



If I remember correctly Samsung are the only LCD maker with a zero dead pixel policy.

CalGrunt
Oct 26, 2005, 04:25 PM
The official Apple policy is found at http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=22194


If you suspect your display contains a high number of pixel anomalies, take your Apple product to an Apple Authorized Service Provider for closer examination. There may be a charge for the evaluation.



Apples policy is only available if you KNOW where to look for it. It is not stated anywhere in their advertising.

So you buy a new computer, you have no idea what their policy is, you have a few dead pixels, you are concerned, so you take it to an authorized repair center or an Apple Store, and THEY MAY CHARGE YOU FOR AN EVALUATION OF YOUR BRAND NEW FLAWED LCD???? What a crock !!!!!!!

If this happened to me, they better not charge me. They should gladly exchange my computer for one that doesn't have any dead pixels, and not only not charge me a dime, but apologize for the inconvenience of me having to bring my brand new computer back to them.

Charge me for an evaluation???? That's an insult !!!!

AP_piano295
Oct 26, 2005, 04:48 PM
I think you can sometimes unstick pixels and even bring them back to life sometimes by massaging them with a soft rag.

aristobrat
Oct 26, 2005, 06:38 PM
Apples policy is only available if you KNOW where to look for it. It is not stated anywhere in their advertising.
Cal,

(insert any LCD seller here)'s policy is only available if you KNOW where to look for it. They don't state it anywhere in their advertising.

With the exception of Samsung, right or wrong, Apple's dead pixel policy appears to be right in line with the rest of the industry (Sony, Dell, IBM, etc). Unadvertised or not.l

aristobrat
Oct 26, 2005, 06:39 PM
So you buy a new computer, you have no idea what their policy is, you have a few dead pixels, you are concerned, so you take it to an authorized repair center or an Apple Store, and THEY MAY CHARGE YOU FOR AN EVALUATION OF YOUR BRAND NEW FLAWED LCD???? What a crock !!!!!!!
Again, Dell, IBM, etc would all do the same thing.

CalGrunt
Oct 26, 2005, 07:19 PM
Again, Dell, IBM, etc would all do the same thing.

Aristobrat, I don't understand why you keep bringing up other manufacturers. Just because they are doing something doesn't make it right. I'm not buying a Dell or IBM, but if I were, I would have the same issue with them.

If, by chance, some customer really got a hair up their butt and decided to take Apple to court on this, there is no way that Apple could use what any of their competitors are doing in the market place as an excuse to do the same thing. It's that old "two wrongs don't make a right" logic that comes into play here.

But again, I'm not purchasing a Dell or an IBM. I could care less how they*market their products. But being that I am purchasing a Mac, I care very*much how Apple would deal with me as a customer who desires to return a flawed LCD monitor.

Not that Apple would do this, but are you implying that if I buy a brand new computer at a premium price, and I take it home and notice a few dead pixels, or even just one, and I return it to Apple for an exchange, that if they want to charge me a 15% restocking fee, and/or charge me for an evaluation, that I should accept it just because Dell and IBM do the same thing?

aristobrat
Oct 26, 2005, 07:31 PM
I'm not here to say what's right or not. I'm merely pointing out that you seem to be taking indignant exception to Apple's pixel policy, which seems to be in line with how the rest of the real world works. You can either adjust your expecations accordingly, or ... sue, I guess. Although with as long as companies have been selling LCDs with the occasional stuck pixel, I'm pretty sure that's been tried before.

Perhaps an eMac? No LCDs there.

CalGrunt
Oct 26, 2005, 07:54 PM
You can either adjust your expecations accordingly, or ... sue, I guess. Although with as long as companies have been selling LCDs with the occasional stuck pixel, I'm pretty sure that's been tried before.




Nope, I don't have to adjust my expectations, nor do I have to sue. I have total confidence that I will be able to speak to someone within Apples organization and appeal to their business ethics and be able to exchange my iMac, if it so happens to be delivered with a dead pixel or two.

I also disagree that it's been tried before, regarding having this thing go through the courts. It would be totally asinine for a large company to allow something as trivial as this go through the courts..............nope.......they would satisfy a complaining customer and exchange their computer before they would ever allow it to escalate to that degree.

Nope, I don't think the courts have ever seen this issue, but if they did, I have no doubt that the manufacturer would lose. You can't hold a customer responsible for knowing a policy if it is not clearly posted where customers can see it, without having to search for it. If you're going to charge a 15% restocking fee, or if you're going to charge for an evaluation on a brand new warranted product that a customer receives that has some flaws, then you better state so in the small print under your advertising and clearly state what constitutes a defective monitor and what doesn't constitute a monitor being defective.

And the ONLY reason that I am specifically indignant to Apples pixel policy is that I am in the process of buying a computer from them. And again, I could care less what the policies are at Dell or IBM, because I am not purchasing a computer because I am not purchasing a computer from either Dell or IBM.

Ok........off my soapbox now. Nothing more really to say about this subject. I think I've beaten the proverbial dead horse.

Apple!Freak
Oct 28, 2005, 05:41 PM
I just came back from the Apple Store with a new 17" iMac (they just got them in today--I know because I called everyday looking for them). It's perfect. No dead pixels, and all the problems I had on the other unit are no longer problems. The data is transfering in firewire mode as we speak and I will be returning the defective iMac on Monday (via the shipping label I was e-mailed).

All's well, ends well. :)

dkeninitz
Oct 28, 2005, 06:34 PM
Wow, interesting thread. I'm with AppleFreak, even one dead pixel would drive me nuts, but I count it a miracle that they're willing to let him swap the machine. I switched to Mac's three years ago after using PC's for nearly 20 years. I probably owned at least 30 PC's (desktops and laptops), from a variety of manufacturers, but most of the desktops were Dell and most of the laptops were IBM Thinkpads. My personal experiences with these two manufacturers generally were positive. Quick telephone access, polite and competent telephone service reps, next day onsite service (at a cost far less than what Apple charges for AppleCare), etc. I've had exactly the opposite experience with Apple. I love the design of the machines, and I really love OS X, but my customer service interactions have been miserable. While I know many people here will say my experiences have been atypical, they are real.

The only stuck pixel I've ever had was on my first Mac, a 1 ghz TiBook. Naturally, Apple refused to do anything about it, but was surprised me was the callousness of the service tech I spoke with. His attitude was: tough luck and if you don't like it, go buy a Dell. I've had a half-dozen or so problems since then, and it's been a hassle to get Apple to accept responsiblity for anything (including a defective power adapter that began to smoke); it's as if you have to fight them first. Eventually they fix stuff, but not without a fight. The iPod defective battery class action settlement is typical Apple, IMHO.

I see Apple service rated highly in different magazines, like Consumer Reports, but from hanging out on Mac forums for the past few years I've developed a theory that Mac users generally are very loyal and will defend Apple to a fault. As an example, I reguarly see iBook and PowerBook owners talking about how with their $249 AppleCare, they sent their machine off to Apple and had it back in...4 or 5 days! With both Dell and IBM, I had laptops fixed onsite the next day at least four times, and it didn't cost me $249 for a three-year warranty. Mailing back a laptop for service (covered by a warranty that cost $249) and waiting 4 or 5 days strikes me as a complete joke.

Given the relative price of a typical Mac relative to a lowly PC, I think one dead pixel is one dead pixel too many.

pionata
Oct 28, 2005, 08:42 PM
Im getting a 1550$can 23" monitor next week, if there is any dead pixels I'll return it immediatly at the store. If they refuse that I'll send it to apple. Its outrageous to pay so much for something that can be defective.

Mr MacBlue
Oct 29, 2005, 03:02 AM
Like my new iBook (which got replaced with one dead pixel), I would say it's DOA. Get a new one! Tell Apple how annoying this dead pixel is and keep complaining.

carpe diem
Oct 29, 2005, 03:47 AM
Seriously dont make such a big deal out of it.

booksacool1
Oct 29, 2005, 07:13 AM
I agree with applefreak, a dead pixel in an apple brand computer is not tolerable.

I've had a few monitors with dead pixels, they were some cheap 17".
But thats where the difference is.

Apple monitors aren't cheap, neither are apple computers. So I would assume they would have a better stuck pixel policy. Maybe even a no-dead-pixel policy?? It appears this isn't so. A bit ironic considering they are known for quality...

For comparison, at the moment I've got a dell inspiron 9300 with a 17" 1920*1200 lcd. No dead/stuck pixels, thats the way it should be. All of my 2304000 pixels are working properly.