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View Full Version : Yet again; proposed internet monitoring


rainman::|:|
Dec 20, 2002, 02:46 AM
Well, the Bush administration is at it again, this time preparing to propose requirements to ISPs that enable the government, through a national center, to monitor the internet.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/20/technology/20MONI.html
(free registration required)

I can imagine most of your opinions, but let's hear what you have to say :) i, for one, think this is a step in quite the wrong direction - Sure the 'net isn't perfect, but the thought of a virtual (no pun intended) gestapo running wild gives me the creeps beyond anything hackers, pornographers, and yes even terrorists can do on it--

pnw

Megaquad
Dec 20, 2002, 03:53 AM
I thought they already monitor this? Anyway they will be catching only terrorists and hardcore hackers, right? So whats the problem?

Wes
Dec 20, 2002, 06:42 AM
Originally posted by Megaquad
I thought they already monitor this? Anyway they will be catching only terrorists and hardcore hackers, right? So whats the problem?

I bet they've been doing it for years, but they are just saying this so they can go public.

Megaquad
Dec 20, 2002, 08:44 AM
Originally posted by W-_-W


I bet they've been doing it for years, but they are just saying this so they can go public.
Or we are just a bit too paranoid :D

dricci
Dec 20, 2002, 08:49 AM
Let's let the government take away our last form of free communication.

If you want people watching your activity online, that's fine, but I don't. I think the government can find better things to use time and money for.

What's next? USE WINDOWS OR THE TERRORISTS HAVE WON!

zarathustra
Dec 20, 2002, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by dricci
Let's let the government take away our last form of free communication.

If you want people watching your activity online, that's fine, but I don't. I think the government can find better things to use time and money for.

What's next? USE WINDOWS OR THE TERRORISTS HAVE WON!

Feel a bit melodramatic? Considering that most adequate hackers/comp geeks can trace, intercept and otherwise follow information on the internet, you don't feel concerned about that?

While I don't think that they want to "control" the internet, monitoring does you no harm if you are doing nothing illegal...

diorio
Dec 20, 2002, 11:25 AM
Honestly, nobody has anything to worry about if they're not doing anything illegal.

pgwalsh
Dec 20, 2002, 11:39 AM
The government wants to monitor the Internet like they do the phone lines. They're only looking for keywords in text. A certain number of keywords combined in a paragraph will popup an alert.

Wes
Dec 20, 2002, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by pgwalsh
The government wants to monitor the Internet like they do the phone lines. They're only looking for keywords in text. A certain number of keywords combined in a paragraph will popup an alert.

That's going to be a hard thing to do.

The words: Bin Laden, crash, aeroplane, kill, bush.

Could just be:
Person 1: I wonder how long until they catch that Bin Laden dude.
Person 2: Hey my grandmother was in a car crash!
Person 1: Was she killed?
Person 2: No, just a little shaken up, the other person was distracted by an aeroplane going over.
Person 1: Did she hit anything?
Person 2: Just a bush.

A little far-fetched, but not easy.

Rower_CPU
Dec 20, 2002, 12:36 PM
What makes the gov't think that terrorists communicating in this fashion wouldn't use a code of some sort...or that they'd even communicate in English for that matter? :rolleyes:

*goes back to work at underfunded educational facility for foreign language instruction*

Wes
Dec 20, 2002, 12:57 PM
I saw a show a while ago detailing how the terrorists could stay without being detected using those digital monitoring programs. One way was, using a text editor to look at a jpeg and to view all the code that gets the picture to show up. Then you can add text in without effecting the image. This image can then be sent, and the receiver can open it in a similar program to reveal the message. They demonstrated this method and it seemed rather easy to do.

Mblazened
Dec 20, 2002, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by diorio
Honestly, nobody has anything to worry about if they're not doing anything illegal.

What about privacy? I don't really want the government watching over my shoulder as I dredge the net for hardcore porn. What about when I research information on drugs i'm about to experiment with? Some activities are illegal even when they shouldn't be.

This is like granting the power of God over people's digital lifestyles. Internal Intelligence at this scale has never existed before; who knows how it will be wielded. If knowledge is power, then omniscience is omnipotence.

SCARY!

pgwalsh
Dec 20, 2002, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by Mblazened


What about privacy? I don't really want the government watching over my shoulder as I dredge the net for hardcore porn. What about when I research information on drugs i'm about to experiment with? Some activities are illegal even when they shouldn't be.

This is like granting the power of God over people's digital lifestyles. Internal Intelligence at this scale has never existed before; who knows how it will be wielded. If knowledge is power, then omniscience is omnipotence.

SCARY!
The government doesn't care if you're into porn. They can't use that against you and why would they. Are participating in illegal activity against the US? However if you were into kiddy porn then I hope they do put you away.

MrMacMan
Dec 20, 2002, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by Mblazened


What about privacy? I don't really want the government watching over my shoulder as I dredge the net for hardcore porn. What about when I research information on drugs i'm about to experiment with? Some activities are illegal even when they shouldn't be.

This is like granting the power of God over people's digital lifestyles. Internal Intelligence at this scale has never existed before; who knows how it will be wielded. If knowledge is power, then omniscience is omnipotence.

SCARY!

Well you see the goverment likes to know what your doing every day. Did you have a bad day? Maybe a good day, did he give exact change or not enough.
Is he a good person?
Does he like to look at pron when he is mad or happy, does he have friends, is he single, married, kids?
This is all one big system.
Ah, some of you might remember I said i was being personally taped, well I still am and it seems I have a 'yellow flag' on me which means any gov't office should stop me if I have more than a wallet on me.
:rolleyes:
Originally posted by pgwalsh

The government doesn't care if you're into porn. They can't use that against you and why would they. Are participating in illegal activity against the US? However if you were into kiddy porn then I hope they do put you away.

Anyways... This means they can Monitor you, I don't belive they can use it in a Case Against you, they need warents and maybe hard proof.
Besides, WHO WATCHING KIDDY PORN.
[Warning The Dept. Of Homeland security is now monitoring this Topic]

whfsdude
Dec 20, 2002, 05:19 PM
If this happens I am going to go walk down to the capitol and throw my own poop @ senators.

I wonder if I would make the evening news? ;-)

alex_ant
Dec 20, 2002, 06:19 PM
Anyone who thinks internet monitoring is a good idea should read 1984, because you obviously haven't yet.

Wes
Dec 20, 2002, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by alex_ant
Anyone who thinks internet monitoring is a good idea should read 1984, because you obviously haven't yet.

I really should read that book! I hear so much about it, but have never read it. Sounds a bit like Minority Report.

OutThere
Dec 20, 2002, 06:48 PM
Well, if you have nothing to hide then the government can watch all they want and you will have no way of knowing it, but the fact that they would be watching everything and you would have knowledge of it poses some serious moral issues. Just imagine sending IM's to your girlfriend and having some guy hunched over a computer watching everything you say. There would be nothing to stop him from watching your love-infused conversation stream by on his screen. He would be legally there to watch everything on the internet, in search of suspicious activities, but as someone mentioned (sorry, i didn't remember who you were and didn't want to lose everything I had written) terrorists could post a picture of their favorite car in that post and encode secret messages to their fellow evil-doers. Would someone monitoring the router that it passed through suspect that there was anything going on. I think not. There are so many Jpeg images on the internet that the government could never possibly monitor all of the image traffic for suspicious coding. Unless we have elected some very strange congressmen, I believe that the opinion of the general public will be to turn down this proposal, and that the congressman should support the views of the public and turn down this proposal.

Thats My 2

OutThere
Dec 20, 2002, 06:51 PM
In addition to my last post...what happened to the "less government in our lives" that GWB peddled in his campaign. If this were to go through this would be a major breach of his "Philosophy."

cr2sh
Dec 21, 2002, 04:54 AM
Originally posted by zarathustra
monitoring does you no harm if you are doing nothing illegal...

That's a very idealistic point of view.

If I'm doing nothing illegal they have no reason to be watching me. They're watching me because they're assuming I'm going to be breakign the law. I'm guilty already, all they need is evidence. Is this what a government is suppossed to do?

rainman::|:|
Dec 21, 2002, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by pgwalsh
The government wants to monitor the Internet like they do the phone lines. They're only looking for keywords in text. A certain number of keywords combined in a paragraph will popup an alert.

They're already doing *this*, it's an FBI project called Predator (hunts out the "meat" from the rest), they want to take it further and have an actual center full of employees reading our email, monitoring websites, hell eventually hacking our computers ("for our own good")... Thx guys for backing me up, you don't have to be breaking the law to enjoy privacy, history shows us that WHEREVER the government gets involved, bad things happen. Would you people want the gov't going through your postal mail? then why your email? I'm no gov't conspiracy nut, but this is inevitably the first step towards censorship...

Why is it when another country tries to take away our freedom, thousands of men and women are ready to lay down their lives to prevent it, yet when this happens you people roll out the red carpet? My god, some of you people don't have any clue what freedom you enjoy...

:)
pnw

Chef Ramen
Dec 21, 2002, 04:43 PM
its actually called carnivore. and its not powerful enough to scan the ENTIRE internet. TIA will try to accopmlish this.

you may not be looking at kiddy porn or downloading warez, but what if you're badmouthing Bush or the gov't in general? Bush himself said "Dissent is treason." So if somebody talks bad about him, they could be tried for treason:eek: doesnt that BOTHER you??

i hope you all remember what ari fleischer had to say

"watch what you say"

solvs
Dec 21, 2002, 04:45 PM
Who says you have to be doing something illegal for it to be private? I don't want the government to be watching me no matter what I'm doing. Next they'll have camera's in our bathrooms (didn't you guys see the Daily Show the other day?). Maybe we're being paranoid, but this how it starts. Pretty soon you have a police state where even the innocent are not safe.

And it's not "the government". It's a bunch of people working for the government. Do you trust some strange person watching you, judging you? Monitoring what you do? If you don't care, think about it for a second. You might start to realize how creepy it is (unless your voyeuristic or something).

Then they're telling you what to do, how to do it, how to think, what to believe. Don't think it could happen? Anyone heard of Iraq? Anyone notice when someone is accused of something in this country, especially if it's broadcast on the news, they're automatically assumed guilty. People believe what they hear. Read 1984. It's a pretty scary thing, but mostly because of how easily it could happen.

Anyone heard of Nazi Germany?

America is supposed to be about freedom. Innocence before being proven guilty. It doesn't always work, but "give me liberty, or give me death". When we start to give up our freedoms for our safety, we really begin to lose sight of what this country suposed to be all about. People should be more p*ssed about this.

Besides, I prefer KITTY porn:

dreamlance
Dec 21, 2002, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by Megaquad
I thought they already monitor this? Anyway they will be catching only terrorists and hardcore hackers, right? So whats the problem?

If Bush said "Dissent is treason," and you didn't agree with his tactics, where is the line drawn between free speech and dissent? Solvs is right in saying "this is how it starts." Change doesn't occur in miles, it starts in inches. You give up one, and another, until you've headed over a mile. Monitoring me is an invasion of privacy, whether I'm doing something illegal or not, because my life is my business, not theirs. Monitoring assumes that I have done something of suspicion. I thought we were all innocent until proven guilty.

Originally posted by OutThere761
In addition to my last post...what happened to the "less government in our lives" that GWB peddled in his campaign. If this were to go through this would be a major breach of his "Philosophy."

Honeyed words said during a campaign are no promise that the leader will stick to them. Unfortunately.

Originally posted by dricci
I think the government can find better things to use time and money for.

Agreed.

pianojoe
Dec 21, 2002, 10:17 PM
principiis obsta

solvs
Dec 21, 2002, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by pianojoe
principiis obsta

Resist the first advances.

Right?

dreamlance
Dec 21, 2002, 10:50 PM
PRINCIPIIS OBSTA -
"An Ounce of Prevention is Worth a Pound of Cure."

"The constitution and laws of a State are rarely attacked from the front; it is against secret and gradual attacks that a Nation must chiefly guard. Sudden resolutions strike men's imaginations; their history is written, and their secret sources made known; but changes are overlooked when they come about insensibly by a series of steps which are scarcely noted. One would do a great service to Nations by showing from history how many States have thus changed their whole nature and lost their original constitution. The attention of the peoples would be awakened, and thenceforth in the realization of that excellent maxim, no less essential in politics than in morality, principiis obsta, they would not close their eyes to innovations which, though of little account in themselves, serve as so many steps to advance to higher and more disastrous undertakings."


The Law Of Nations Or The Principles Of Natural Law,
Book I, Chap. III, Sec. 30, by Emer de Vattel
taken from http://www.gilanet.com/wallace/

alex_ant
Dec 21, 2002, 11:10 PM
I'm afraid that was waaaaaay too intellecshul for Macrumors.

Rower_CPU
Dec 21, 2002, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by alex_ant
I'm afraid that was waaaaaay too intellecshul for Macrumors.

Careful...you're on the verge of sarcasm there. ;)

rainman::|:|
Dec 26, 2002, 01:51 AM
Originally posted by Chef Ramen
its actually called carnivore. and its not powerful enough to scan the ENTIRE internet. TIA will try to accopmlish this.

Ah, yes, it's been a while since i've heard anything about it-- While they don't scan the entire net, certain ISPs have pretty willingly complied, i don't have a list handy. So far small, local ISPs (i used a coop for years, was great) have been safe still. what we're talking about now is a law requiring ISPs to comply, and so they should have great success monitoring most internet communications in this country. I wonder, the USA being the world's policeman, if they'll spread out in time? Electronic eavesdropping all over the world... The practical uses for espionage are numerous... reading private and secret emails, planting propganda, operating entirely in the open, no one to stop the USA.

The implications here are widespread... And none very good, other than perhaps getting a lock on the (assumed number of) terrorists in the USA...

pnw

elfin buddy
Dec 27, 2002, 10:32 PM
Have any of you stopped to think how this may affect the rest of the world? America doesn't own the internet, but it encompasses a friggin' huge chunck of it. I don't want anyone invading my privacy (whether online or otherwise), and especially not some foreign government. Unfortunately, if something big happens in America, the rest of the world usually follows suit. In other words, foreign governments would start to adopt an internet monitoring system.

As other people have said, this one step may start a chain reaction of leaps and bounds. With other governments following, this could become a worldwide nightmare.

I haven't read 1984, but I think it's easy enough to see where this could lead.

chLoAcUoRlEaNte
Jan 3, 2003, 11:33 AM
besides the fact that this would get other countries to invade my privacy, i dont want the american government to invade my privacy! cumon the country is based on freedom...! government needs a warrant to go in some1s house, how is this different? cant i do what i want on my computer?