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Mr. Anderson
Dec 27, 2002, 11:08 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/12/27/human.cloning/index.html

This would be bad enough, but the group who's claiming the feat isn't exactly what you'd call normal.

A company founded by a religious group that believes humans were created by extraterrestrials said Friday that it has created the first human clone -- a 7-pound baby girl named "Eve."

D :(

edesignuk
Dec 27, 2002, 11:19 AM
...scary! :eek:

mymemory
Dec 27, 2002, 11:21 AM
Having a baby cloned from me or my girldfriend would be boring. I can see a baby bommer generation of cloned people in the years to come. I rather like the clasic way.

Kid Red
Dec 27, 2002, 11:24 AM
Well, bad enough in your opinion. But it is troubling that a religious freak supposedly abducted by aliens who then started a religious sect was the first to have cloned a human.

edesignuk
Dec 27, 2002, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by mymemory
THis thread was old.
How do you figure that?
The thread is brand new as is the story on CNN.
:confused:

Kid Red
Dec 27, 2002, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by mymemory
THis thread was old.

Ah, only happened today, guy.

That's really old :rolleyes:

Mr. Anderson
Dec 27, 2002, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by mymemory
THis thread was old.

I hadn't heard about it before and if you look at the article the baby was born yesterday - so I'm guessing you're thinking about something else.

D

Sun Baked
Dec 27, 2002, 11:28 AM
I think he's saying the story/subject was conceived 9 months ago.

But it's nice to know the alien/human hybrid is alive an well in these people's minds.

rainman::|:|
Dec 27, 2002, 12:28 PM
the sect announced this back in march, and last month they talked about how the women were almost to term, and there was a thread discussing the whole thing then, i think that's what mymemory is referring to...

:)
pnw

Wash!!
Dec 27, 2002, 12:51 PM
I don't know about you but if you remember the series "Space above and beyond" they mention a whole new invetro race of humans that were created to do dangerous jobs that so called "normal' humans would not do.

If funny how we are so close to that now I'll give 5 more years.
;)

Durandal7
Dec 27, 2002, 01:01 PM
Interesting, I don't know if I trust the group's claims however.

rainman::|:|
Dec 27, 2002, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by Durandal7
Interesting, I don't know if I trust the group's claims however.

They worship an ex-racecar driver who claims to have been abducted by 4-foot aliens who took him aboard a spaceship and had him mate with voluptuous robot women... and you're not sure if you believe their claims?

i think it's universally accepted that this is a farce...

:)
pnw

Megaquad
Dec 27, 2002, 01:16 PM
I bet this poor kid is gonna get sick in few years.
Foolish people, why doesn't government put to jail all those stupid religious freaks.
I have some fanatics that meditate near my house doing crazy stuff every night, makes me wanna go there and kill them all!
Now they are gathering energy from mother earth!! :eek:

maluscanis
Dec 27, 2002, 01:25 PM
I know that you were joking around with your comment but remember that everyone should have the freedom to believe whatever they want and practice those beliefs in whatever manner they so desire...as long as they are not endangering those around them. I don't know if anyone is interested but I am starting a new religious group this Sunday that worships Standard Poodles (the toy poodles are not worthy of worship). Afterwards, I will be serving red Kool-Aid for refreshments.

rainman::|:|
Dec 27, 2002, 02:02 PM
My point was simply that without a lot more conclusive evidence (they've refused to furnish), no one should believe this. I could call a press conference right now to announce the cure for cancer, doesn't mean i've actually found it...

i do think they fully believe they cloned a person, but probably using some psychic technique perfected by the volcano aliens... the equipment and staff required to accomplish such a feat simply aren't available at every 7-11... granted their leader used to be a chemistry professor, but that doesn't mean she's not crazy...

:)
pnw

wdlove
Dec 27, 2002, 02:58 PM
Netscape Poll:

I approve of cloning for:

Humans
8%

Animals
5%

Embyronic stem cells
38%

Nothing
49%

I'll wait to see the actual proof, it will take years to know the effect! :confused:

medea
Dec 27, 2002, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Megaquad
I bet this poor kid is gonna get sick in few years.
Foolish people, why doesn't government put to jail all those stupid religious freaks.
I have some fanatics that meditate near my house doing crazy stuff every night, makes me wanna go there and kill them all!
Now they are gathering energy from mother earth!! :eek:
woah, you want to kill your neighbors for meditating and jail all religous "freaks" and your calling someone else fanatic?
maybe you don't live in america.

On the subject of the story though, I agree that there should be some sort of rules set for cloning and the study of cloning, but it seems like everyone is either too closed-minded about it or too open with it, there should some legal guidelines but it appears we are not able to set them yet (I mean we still have issues with abortion for christs sake) so maybe it is good that some "other" organization has attempted it, but I do think this group is a bit shady and I'd like to see some proof.

techne
Dec 27, 2002, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by maluscanis
Afterwards, I will be serving red Kool-Aid for refreshments.

Humm.. I prefer cats instead of dogs but I can join your cult for a glass of Tropical Punch red Kool-aid (http://members.tripod.com/~NightGarden/tropical.html), hehehe.

When I saw that scientist (http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=1966952) in google news (http://news.google.com) this morning I didn't think about moral or ethical issues of cloning. First thing I tought was that Nina Hagen was going to announce her new live album (http://www.nina-hagen.com/pages/fire/e_new.html) after so many years of musical silence.. oh well.. That lad looks nuts enough to claim she is Nina (http://www.nina-hagen.com/img/discography/albums/unbehagen.gif) anyway.

Techné

cc bcc
Dec 27, 2002, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by medea

woah, you want to kill your neighbors for meditating and jail all religous "freaks" and your calling someone else fanatic?
maybe you don't live in america.

On the subject of the story though, I agree that there should be some sort of rules set for cloning and the study of cloning, but it seems like everyone is either too closed-minded about it or too open with it, there should some legal guidelines but it appears we are not able to set them yet (I mean we still have issues with abortion for christs sake) so maybe it is good that some "other" organization has attempted it, but I do think this group is a bit shady and I'd like to see some proof.

Maybe you don't live in america? What's that suppost to mean? Sounds pretty american to me..

medea
Dec 27, 2002, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by cc bcc


Maybe you don't live in america? What's that suppost to mean? Sounds pretty american to me..
Ever hear of religous freedom *****? Don't people go to jail (assuming nothing goes wrong in the trial) for murdering innocents here in America ?

cc bcc
Dec 27, 2002, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by medea

Ever hear of religous freedom *****? Don't people go to jail (assuming nothing goes wrong in the trial) for murdering innocents here in America ?

I wasn't saying that that's the way things are done in the usa, I was refering to the blunt way that he reacted.
And don't start proving me right.

Relax.

wdlove
Dec 27, 2002, 07:14 PM
I don't know whether to laugh or cry!

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/27/science/27CLON.html?todaysheadlines

Centris Fan
Dec 28, 2002, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by cc bcc


I wasn't saying that that's the way things are done in the usa, I was refering to the blunt way that he reacted.
And don't start proving me right.

Relax.

Seriously man, don't try to act all superior on this. You were baiting him to begin with; if someone started trashing the Netherlands in a similar manner, you might act similarly.

cc bcc
Dec 28, 2002, 05:27 AM
There would be enough reason to complain, some things are seriously wrong, both here and in the usa.

Thoth
Dec 29, 2002, 07:43 AM
If indeed this is true i feel sorry for the child.

Nuclear transplants such as this destroy parts of the nucleolus, which destroy telomeres on the chromosomes. Which means that the body will develop major defects and problems.

We've seen this with Dolly, and the countless mice and cats.

Why do we even need clones, procreation is <easier, cheaper, quicker, more fun> the old fashioned way.

mymemory
Dec 29, 2002, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by edesignuk

How do you figure that?
The thread is brand new as is the story on CNN.
:confused:

Sorry, I was meaning about an article that was about a pregnant woman with a cloned baby, I'm not sure if it was the same history.

Flickta
Dec 29, 2002, 02:56 PM
Cloning is a process with the history of milliards of years... Though the old technology only allowed making of a clone from a pair of DNA spirals, a mix... But there is no difference. And it's not scary at all, it won't lead to the creation of armies of super soldiers, copies of great people and politicians and so on... For these tasks there is a cheaper and more effective way.
Science is good. Religious sects - bad (religious organizations - ok)







P.S. Aliens? Abductions? Puff... Eeh... Well...

Durandal7
Dec 29, 2002, 03:51 PM
Here's an "enlightening" article about the Raelians.
http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/news2.html
And we're supposed to believe that these idiots managed to clone a human being :rolleyes:

Megaquad
Dec 29, 2002, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by medea

Ever hear of religous freedom *****? Don't people go to jail (assuming nothing goes wrong in the trial) for murdering innocents here in America ?
oh my god how stupid can you be?
you think i would really go out there, kill all of them and post pics of their dead bodies on macrumors? i was expressing my anger of them creating irritating noises near my house and their foolish beliefs

i would never even crossed that line of insulting them directly, but know that if you seen them you would be pissed off at them like i am

and yes, i would go to jail if i killed them ...:rolleyes:

Megaquad
Dec 29, 2002, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by Durandal7
Here's an "enlightening" article about the Raelians.
http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/news2.html
And we're supposed to believe that these idiots managed to clone a human being :rolleyes:
lol they do pretty nasty things, i'm gonna join them :D

wdlove
Dec 29, 2002, 05:08 PM
1981, Elizabeth Jordan Carr, the 1st American “test tube” baby, was born in Norfolk, VA.
2002, Group says it cloned human, Many voice doubt on the birth of girl Raelian leader wears Star Trek style suit, believe mankind from extraterrestrial beings, founder of Clonaid - Girl, Eve born by caesarian section 11:55am 12/26 Thursday to a 31 year old American.

***Announcement shifts focus to legal limits, Michael Guillen, scientist, formerly an ABC Science Correspondent will report DNA findings in 7 days.

Mal
Dec 29, 2002, 06:36 PM
Did anyone else notice the name of the "alien" the Raelien leader supposedly met with?

YAWEH ELOHIM!

Those are two of the names of God in Hebrew. The guy that made up this stuff wasn't totally crazy, he was creating an elaborate deception to lure these people in there where he could watch all the sick stuff they do. I'm willing to bet they aren't crazy either, and I don't think even they believe this is a real clone, they just want to lure in more followers. It's a hoax, a pretty good one too, and should be shot down as one as soon as the DNA evidence comes in.

I agree with religious freedom, but I certainly don't have to agree with what people of other religions do, even if I don't have the right to stop them. These people are sick!

JW

kiwi_the_iwik
Dec 30, 2002, 07:21 AM
I'm outraged by this - and I'm surprised the world governments, or even the United Nations, didn't take steps to stop it. Human cloning is wrong and immoral, plain and simple.


If two people want to bring another individual into the world, then they should:

1. Do it the old fashioned way,

2. Try IVF, if they're unable to do 1., or

3. Adopt - there are millions of unwanted/orphaned children in the world who are not given the opportunities of other children, and need the love of responsible parents.


I'm not against cell cloning - in fact, the idea poses a very interesting and viable solution to such things as organ transplants (or even limb transplants) with no fear of rejection, and no need for carconogenic drugs to ward off future infections that you have to take for the rest of your (shortened) life.


For example - imagine being able to have a heart grown for you - using your own DNA - as a replacement for yours if you suffer from heart disease. Or if you lose an arm, to have a duplicate grown for you in a lab, to be reattached with no possibility of rejection, because your body thinks it's your arm...


We were created by a process that started billions of years ago - who are we to change the process? Are we trying to take the place of God? What have we to gain by creating our own life? Just to say that we can do it?


I don't accept that.


The fact is, that nobody really knows what might happen to this new generation of humankind. You could call this new race of people many things - hybrids, clones, or even replicants. What troubles me is that it's not a natural process - that there may be many complications as their lives, or even as their generations, progress. There might be - at a molecular level - physical or mental defects, or perhaps sterility, that may surface after time. And if that happens many years (or centuries) down the track, then humanity may have killed itself off by its own arrogant blind pig-ignorance.

digital1
Dec 30, 2002, 07:44 AM
Originally posted by techne


Humm.. I prefer cats instead of dogs but I can join your cult for a glass of Tropical Punch red Kool-aid (http://members.tripod.com/~NightGarden/tropical.html), hehehe.

When I saw that scientist (http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=1966952) in google news (http://news.google.com) this morning I didn't think about moral or ethical issues of cloning. First thing I tought was that Nina Hagen was going to announce her new live album (http://www.nina-hagen.com/pages/fire/e_new.html) after so many years of musical silence.. oh well.. That lad looks nuts enough to claim she is Nina (http://www.nina-hagen.com/img/discography/albums/unbehagen.gif) anyway.

Techné





Look at her teeth! :confused: :D

wdlove
Dec 30, 2002, 06:57 PM
The FDA is investigating, but not formally yet. Scientists predict that as many as 20 clones will be born in 2003. Clinics to be set up in almost all continents!
Eve is due to land somewhere in the US today?

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/30/national/30CLON.html?todaysheadlines

skunk
Dec 31, 2002, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by kiwi_the_iwik

I'm not against cell cloning - in fact, the idea poses a very interesting and viable solution to such things as organ transplants (or even limb transplants) with no fear of rejection, and no need for carconogenic drugs to ward off future infections that you have to take for the rest of your (shortened) life.

How much of a person can you clone before using the material infringes its rights? Does an arm have rights?

cc bcc
Jan 1, 2003, 01:07 PM
How much of a person can you clone before using the material infringes its rights? Does an arm have rights?

I'd be seriously pissed if someone cloned me without my consensus. I consider myself cc bcc(tm) :D
Although the copyright owners could be my parents...

kiwi_the_iwik
Jan 1, 2003, 02:21 PM
Sorry, skunk. Maybe I didn't make myself clear...

If the cloned limb or organ is to be transplanted to you, then only you should be the one to supply the cells required for the cloning to commence. And no one else.

Therefore, if the cells originated from you, then the rights of those cells would not be compromised (if, in fact, a limb has rights... ...hmmm).

;)

skunk
Jan 1, 2003, 08:32 PM
Say, for the sake of argument, I had my body cloned because it was knackered: would my old head have the right to decide what happened to it, the old body, or the new body, or the new head? Where is the person once the parts are reproduced? Gets a bit tricky, doesn't it?:confused:

kiwi_the_iwik
Jan 3, 2003, 05:37 AM
Now you're just being silly.

I'm talking about limbs and organs, and not reproducing humans. That's what I class to be immoral.

skunk
Jan 3, 2003, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by kiwi_the_iwik
Now you're just being silly.

No, it's just a "reductio ad absurdum". I think the point is valid. Are these cloned parts just lumps of meat? We generally assume that a "person" resides in his or her head, but the very techniques of cloning mean that you can in theory reproduce a "person" from their toe-nail. This does raise interesting questions.

kiwi_the_iwik
Jan 3, 2003, 08:50 AM
Just going back to your previous point skunk -

If your body is "knackered", then I'm figuring there's going to be no argument as to it's rights - considering your consciousness resides in your head (and I can't see it being cloned, as to transplant the knowledge from one brain to another is nigh on impossible), your rights should theoretically end there.

An example is if you are involved in an accident, where a limb may be damaged in such a way that amputation is an option. I doubt whether doctors will have an in-depth theological debate as to the rights of a mangled limb. And, I'd imagine, you would have no hesitation - if given the option, and the technology - to agree to a replacement limb to be cultured in a laboratory, to be reattached at the earliest convenience.

I saw an interesting (if not, macabre) documentary on Channel 4 about a year ago - it was on people who hated their limbs so much, they would go as far as to have them amputated. And I'm talking about actual working arms and legs, with no abnormalities. So, after a series of psychiatric evaluations, they were allowed to become amputees. Although I don't believe these people should have had their wish (I think they should be on medication, personally), their point was noted seriously by health and psychiatrists alike - and they all came to the same conclusion to allow the procedures to take place.

If that is the case, then your argument about the rights of limbs is superfluous - there are none.


:)

skunk
Jan 3, 2003, 09:02 AM
Valid counter-arguments, on the whole. BUT (there's always a but) very difficult questions may still arise about rights and relationships: if two or more clones are created from one original person, for instance. And is a clone of a person a sibling or a child? At some point these questions will have to be addressed.
Maybe not here, though :)

wdlove
Jan 3, 2003, 11:18 AM
The latest is that the parents of the 1st allegedly cloned human, isn't sure they want to have the baby's DNA tested! Why not, blood is routinely drawn anway!!! :confused:

Now the Clonaids claim that a 2nd cloned human will be born in Europe soon!
Lets see th proof!

skunk
Jan 3, 2003, 11:26 AM
Sounds more and more like horse****...:rolleyes:

chLoAcUoRlEaNte
Jan 3, 2003, 11:29 AM
i don't agree with cloning for any purposes other than medical, in which case i think it is ok only if medical testing is done on it within the 1st trimester, and afterwards it is killed (if not already so from the testing). Having multiple people that are exactly the same could cause problems. I don't agree with cloning for the military or religion.

skunk
Jan 3, 2003, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by chLoAcUoRlEaNte
i don't agree with cloning for any purposes other than medical, in which case i think it is ok only if medical testing is done on it within the 1st trimester, and afterwards it is killed
Seems rather arbitrary? Any grounds for this time limit?

wdlove
Jan 3, 2003, 03:33 PM
I would disagree with the use of aborptions. Would prefer the use of the umblical cord, stem cells lines currently in use, & discarded test tube zygotes.