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Sayhey
Nov 25, 2005, 03:10 PM
OK, the off-season has begun to heat up with the trades of Beckett (to Boston,) Thome (to the ChiSox,) and Delgado (to the Mets.) I thought a wish list of sorts was in order for all of us in the throws of Baseball withdrawals. My own starts with one or two starting pitchers (Burnett, Morris, and/or Washburn would do nicely) added to the Giants starting rotation, plus a slugging left handed bat to come off the bench (Burnitz?.) I wouldn't mind if the Giants could unload Alfonzo to some unsuspecting team, but that would be wishing for too much wouldn't it? Of course, all of the above, except Alfonzo, presumes the Giants are willing to spend some money to make a run at a Series title in Bonds and Alou's last year of their contracts. Any others wishing for off-season miracle make overs?

eva01
Nov 25, 2005, 03:14 PM
Don't forget Lowell in the deal with beckett to the Red Sox.

And i want Furcal to be the Sox new Second Baseman. A man can dream can't he ;)

thedude110
Nov 25, 2005, 03:36 PM
As a Sox fan, I'm torn about this Beckett deal. I don't like giving up Hanley Ramirez, and Beckett is far from a sure thing health wise. The best part of the trade might be getting Guillermo Mota. Call it sour grapes, but I'm not sure Theo would have pulled the trigger on this one.

And the Marlins. What a disgrace.

And the White Sox are nuts. I know they've got a kid coming up behind Rowand, but dealing Rowand's glove, and his consistent clutch production, for the whiffs of Thome? I think Podsednik's run production will fall off considerably this season. I never thought I'd say this, but Jim Thome is no Paul Konerko.

Sayhey
Nov 25, 2005, 03:38 PM
Don't forget Lowell in the deal with beckett to the Red Sox.

And i want Furcal to be the Sox new Second Baseman. A man can dream can't he ;)

Absolutely! it's what this thread is all about. Don't you think Lowell is damaged goods though? He may comeback to his old form, but if the Sox are hoping for him to fill in for a departing Manny they will be making a huge mistake, imo. About Furcal, everything I hear is that he wants to stay a shortstop and is unlikely to go anywhere that won't allow that to happen.

eva01
Nov 25, 2005, 03:42 PM
Absolutely! it's what this thread is all about. Don't you think Lowell is damaged goods thought? He may comeback to his old form, but if the Sox are hoping for him to fill in for a departing Manny they will be making a huge mistake, imo. About Furcal, everything I hear is that he wants to stay a shortstop and is unlikely to go anywhere that won't allow that to happen.

If lowell is damaged goods, then so is Beckett in my opinion due to his shoulder problem. But for some reason the Red Sox love Damaged goods.

If furcal wants to play short then i have no problem with moving Edgar to second. I just can't put up with this not having a second baseman or a #2 spot in the lineup. It has been getting very annoying over the past 5 or so years that i have been paying heavy attention. No more Todd Walker or Bellhorn crap. I want a real second baseman and #2 hitter.

And if Manny does go away, maybe the red sox can replace him with Konerko?

dotdotdot
Nov 25, 2005, 03:45 PM
As a Mets fan, I can only say this:

WE GOT DELGADO!!!

Now all we need is a decent second baseman, catcher, and outfeilder, and a much needed reliever.

eva01
Nov 25, 2005, 03:47 PM
As a Mets fan, I can only say this:

WE GOT DELGADO!!!

the streakiest hitter in all of baseball.

You wont even know he is on your team for 3 months of the year.

Sayhey
Nov 25, 2005, 03:50 PM
If lowell is damaged goods, then so is Beckett in my opinion due to his shoulder problem. But for some reason the Red Sox love Damaged goods.

If furcal wants to play short then i have no problem with moving Edgar to second. I just can't put up with this not having a second baseman or a #2 spot in the lineup. It has been getting very annoying over the past 5 or so years that i have been paying heavy attention. No more Todd Walker or Bellhorn crap. I want a real second baseman and #2 hitter.

And if Manny does go away, maybe the red sox can replace him with Konerko?

If you want to get rid of Beckett, I'd love for the Giants to have him. Seriously, it's all a gamble but Beckett is worth the risk.

dotdotdot, as a Giants fan, all I can say is, so far, we've got nothing. :(

eva01
Nov 25, 2005, 03:54 PM
Nah i love taking chances on people.

Has worked out in the past ^_^ I am very happy so far with what is happening with the Red Sox.

Counterfit
Nov 25, 2005, 04:01 PM
After all the hubbub about Hanley Ramirez, they deal him away for (yet another) potentially injury-riddled pitcher? I thought that was part of the reason they didn't re-sign Pedro.

thedude110
Nov 29, 2005, 04:18 PM
The Blue Jays totally overpaid for BJ Ryan. When they said they were going to make in impact in the free agent market, I thought they meant they were going to do more than drive up the price of Billy Wagner!

And this Billy Wagner signing. If the Mets make a deal for Manny (and last I saw they were willing to deal Floyd, Heilmann and a minor leaguer) -- God. Their payroll.

eva01
Nov 29, 2005, 04:39 PM
And this Billy Wagner signing. If the Mets make a deal for Manny (and last I saw they were willing to deal Floyd, Heilmann and a minor leauger) -- God. Their payroll.

If the Red Sox even think about that deal for more than 2 minutes I will be outrageously pissed off.

That is a pathetic deal in my opinion. I really don't want Cliff Floyd back on the Red Sox

Sayhey
Nov 29, 2005, 04:47 PM
The Mets got burned last time they threw huge dollars at the free agent market, but I like their chances better this time. Even the Mets can't come up snake eyes all the time, can they? ;)

Koodauw
Nov 29, 2005, 04:55 PM
I think the Thome-Rowand trade was a bad trade. Thome is over the hill, and they should of focused more on re-signing Konerko.

The Mets also over paid for Wagner, and the Jays over paid for Ryan. Is a closer really worth over 10 mill a year if your not say, Rivera, Gangne, or Smoltz (back when he was closer?)

thedude110
Nov 29, 2005, 05:03 PM
If the Red Sox even think about that deal for more than 2 minutes I will be outrageously pissed off.

That is a pathetic deal in my opinion. I really don't want Cliff Floyd back on the Red Sox

Bob Ryan had suggested the possibility of Wright, Heilman and a minor leaguer for Manny, assuming the Mets would absorb a significant portion of his contract. I don't think that's an awful deal -- Heilman is pretty good and Wright is going to be a long time all star.

But I agree with you -- I don't want Cliff Floyd either.

Chubypig
Nov 29, 2005, 05:13 PM
As a Yankees fan, i would like to see them get moving. Part of me wishes they would keep Bernie, but i don't see it happening :( so they need someone to replace him. I read an article on espn.com about maybe moving A-Rod or Jeter to center, but that just seems crazy! If the pitchers could stay healthy we would be ok, i think.

Sox
Nov 29, 2005, 06:05 PM
I love the Beckett trade. Love it. Most of his "injury problems" have been due to blister trouble, which doesn't bother me as much. He's had shoulder problems, but it doesn't seem to a recurring thing (IIRC, only one of his injury stints was for his shoulder), and I think it was only tendinitis - not the "torn labrum" that Pedro is rumored to have. I think calling a 25 year old World Series MVP "damaged goods" is a little overblown. In fact, since he hasn't ever pitched more than 200 innings in a season, his arm is in better shape then most kids his age - and we have to remember that he's the same age as Jonathan Papelbon. I'm excited to see him pitch.

Furcal is a fine player, and I think the Braves will miss him (assuming he leaves) especially with Omar Minaya wheeling and dealing with no regard for monetary constraints. I think I read that he may be looking at the Dodgers.

I hope and pray everyday that the Red Sox do not trade Manny Ramirez. There's just no way to get fair value for him. And it's not a matter of making up his offensive production with a combination of two or three players. Mark my words: if they trade Manny, Ortiz will set records for intentional walks and the Sox will finish in third or fourth place in the AL East.

It will be interesting to see where the Yankees go for a CF? Can Giles play center? Or would they move Matsui over and let Giles play left? I think Jeter would be a fine CF.

gwuMACaddict
Nov 29, 2005, 06:52 PM
a-fraud would suck in center. look how slow he is playing third base... gimme a break there... and jeter? maybe not a bad option, but you're not going to get a better shortstop... the yankees ought to *gasp* use their farm system to fill the spot?

bj ryan must be laughing all the way to the bank...

and what are the orioles thinking? no more palmiero, sosa, or ryan? i understand that palmiero had to go... and sosa sucked last year, but when you pay a guy that much i think you give him at least two years... and now we don't have a closer either? so no run support, and no pitching... looks like another great season in baltimore...:rolleyes:

and don't even get me started on how the owners keep screwing over the nationals... its the expo-syndrome all over again... no one wants to give them money to buy decent players...

saabmp3
Nov 29, 2005, 07:16 PM
Bob Ryan had suggested the possibility of Wright, Heilman and a minor leaguer for Manny, assuming the Mets would absorb a significant portion of his contract. I don't think that's an awful deal -- Heilman is pretty good and Wright is going to be a long time all star.

But I agree with you -- I don't want Cliff Floyd either.

The one problem with that is Manny has said over and over again how he wants to go to the west coast. Anehiem is basically the only town that would care so little about him that he could feasibly live there. As a 10-5 player, he can veto any trade to the mets, and the way it's currently going, I doubt he would end up there (only reason for him to go is his old friend Pedro).

I'd love to see Zito go to the Sox and Konerko (I know it probably won't happen). If I'm still in my dream land, I want to see caberra come back as well as Mickenwitz (sp??). Oh yeah, how about a GM too??

The Mets, even with thier moneyball stratergy will have a very difficult time with the Braves. They just know how to win.

BEN

IJ Reilly
Nov 29, 2005, 07:22 PM
dotdotdot, as a Giants fan, all I can say is, so far, we've got nothing. :(

You too? :( :(

We don't even have a manager.

Koodauw
Nov 29, 2005, 10:27 PM
a-fraud would suck in center. look how slow he is playing third base... gimme a break there... and jeter? maybe not a bad option, but you're not going to get a better shortstop... the yankees ought to *gasp* use their farm system to fill the spot?

The problem is they have anyone who can play center and hit with NY expectations in the farm system. Crosby is good, but not the greatest hitter. I would like to see Bernie come back, and have him platoon with Matsui, and Brosby. Or even better have them trade for an excellent defensive CF, such as Tori Hunter.

Sox
Nov 30, 2005, 08:46 AM
... and jeter? maybe not a bad option, but you're not going to get a better shortstop...

There's a better shortstop currently playing to Jeter's right. I'm not saying it's the best course of action (who plays third?), but it's possible.

I don't think Bernie will be back. Didn't they decline his option?

thedude110
Nov 30, 2005, 06:18 PM
God. What are the White Sox doing? Resigning Konerko is fine, but Konerko and Thome? Maybe they should sign Erubiel Durazo, too.

But I guess this means the end of the Carl Everett era in Chicago!

Sox
Nov 30, 2005, 10:30 PM
Giles has a preliminary agreement to re-sign with SD.

grapes911
Nov 30, 2005, 10:39 PM
I think the Thome-Rowand trade was a bad trade. Thome is over the hill, and they should of focused more on re-signing Konerko. As a Phils fan I like it. We cleared some payroll, are letting the Rookie of the year play everyday, and getting a pretty good CF. Nice move.

The Mets also over paid for Wagner, and the Jays over paid for Ryan. Is a closer really worth over 10 mill a year if your not say, Rivera, Gangne, or Smoltz (back when he was closer?)Honestly, how can you not put Wagner in that group (I can understand Ryan)? As you said, smoltz is no longer a closer. Gangne has been injured so much that you don't know what he'll be like. Rivera is probably the best in the game, but he seems to be slipping slightly. Wagner is the second best closer in all of baseball at this current moment. How can you overpay the 2nd best player at a position?

Koodauw
Nov 30, 2005, 11:51 PM
I meant it was a bad moves for the Sox, great move for the Phils, except they're still paying about 1/2 of Thome salary.

So it looks like Giles and Konerko are staying put too. That leaves the talent pool rather dry.

Wow, I didnt realize a 3.01 average 15 hrs, and 83 RBI's was worth 10 mill a year, Maybe Wagner was a steal!

macbaseball
Dec 1, 2005, 12:14 AM
Honestly, how can you not put Wagner in that group (I can understand Ryan)? As you said, smoltz is no longer a closer. Gangne has been injured so much that you don't know what he'll be like. Rivera is probably the best in the game, but he seems to be slipping slightly. Wagner is the second best closer in all of baseball at this current moment. How can you overpay the 2nd best player at a position?

I got to agree with you on this one. Wagner is a left hander that throws 100 MPH. That's worth 10 million dollars right there. You can count guys who can do that on one hand.

Sayhey
Dec 1, 2005, 01:07 AM
You too? :( :(

We don't even have a manager.

But you have an ex-Giant GM and that's a start. In fact if I was Colletti I'd rehire Tracy in a minute. The Dodgers problems were mainly from a GM who fell in love with new theories and wouldn't pay for proven talent.

On a different note, I understand the Dodgers might make a run at Furcal. They would have to convince him to play at second or third, because Izturis' glove is too valuable at short. If the could sign him it would sure help the start of their lineup.

IJ Reilly
Dec 1, 2005, 01:32 AM
But you have an ex-Giant GM and that's a start. In fact if I was Colletti I'd rehire Tracy in a minute. The Dodgers problems were mainly from a GM who fell in love with new theories and wouldn't pay for proven talent.

On a different note, I understand the Dodgers might make a run at Furcal. They would have to convince him to play at second or third, because Izturis' glove is too valuable at short. If the could sign him it would sure help the start of their lineup.

Too late for Tracy -- he's happy to be in Pittsburgh (somebody has to be). As for who wouldn't pay for proven talent, we're about to find out whether it was the GM or the owner.

I'm not sure what the Dodgers would do with another first-string shortstop, assuming of course that Izturis comes back from Tommy John surgery. Robles actually did a decent job filling in for him at the end of the season. And second? I'd like to think that the position is not available, even if Kent has made noises about wanting out. Possibly he goes to first if they get Furcal, and Izturis goes to second.

I'm hoping we get an experienced manager, which seems to leave out everybody but Jim Fregosi.

Sayhey
Dec 1, 2005, 02:51 AM
Too late for Tracy -- he's happy to be in Pittsburgh (somebody has to be). As for who wouldn't pay for proven talent, we're about to find out whether it was the GM or the owner.

I'm not sure what the Dodgers would do with another first-string shortstop, assuming of course that Izturis comes back from Tommy John surgery. Robles actually did a decent job filling in for him at the end of the season. And second? I'd like to think that the position is not available, even if Kent has made noises about wanting out. Possibly he goes to first if they get Furcal, and Izturis goes to second.

I'm hoping we get an experienced manager, which seems to leave out everybody but Jim Fregosi.

Whoa, missed that one! When did tracy sign with the Pirates? At Fregosi, color me unimpressed. I know he worked in the Giants organization, but he was never a favorite of mine.

With Furcal, I'd move him to third because of his arm. I'm not that impressed with Furcal's glove, but Izturis, on the other hand, if healthy, is an amazing defensive shortstop. The only reason to put Izturis at second instead of Furcal or Kent is if his arm is shot. If they put Furcal at second I could see Kent sliding over to first. He has never had much range at second, but is pretty sure handed with what he can get to.

IJ Reilly
Dec 1, 2005, 11:36 AM
Whoa, missed that one! When did tracy sign with the Pirates? At Fregosi, color me unimpressed. I know he worked in the Giants organization, but he was never a favorite of mine.

With Furcal, I'd move him to third because of his arm. I'm not that impressed with Furcal's glove, but Izturis, on the other hand, if healthy, is an amazing defensive shortstop. The only reason to put Izturis at second instead of Furcal or Kent is if his arm is shot. If they put Furcal at second I could see Kent sliding over to first. He has never had much range at second, but is pretty sure handed with what he can get to.

Tracy was hired by the Pirates within days of being released by the Dodgers. One of the reasons Tracy was able to give the Dodgers an ultimatum over extending his contract at the end of the season, even after losing 91 games, was because of the interest from the Pirates. He already had somewhere else to go.

The entire Dodger organization is an unholy mess right now. They tried to get Giles, but he decided to re-up with the Padres for less money. Now what does that tell you? Rumor has it Furcal is leaning towards signing with the Cubs. Nothing good is happening so far, but who know maybe Colletti will pull off a miracle at the winter trade meetings.

Either way, I think we're going to be looking at lots of rookies next season. Some of them are actually pretty good, but raw talent is still raw talent.

Izturis is probably not going to be back until mid-season. Kent was actually a pleasant defensive surprise. He played some first last season so I don't think this is out of the question as a reassignment. It might actually be a wise move for a guy his age.

Counterfit
Dec 3, 2005, 09:28 PM
I'd love to see Zito go to the Sox and Konerko (I know it probably won't happen). If I'm still in my dream land, I want to see caberra come back as well as Mickenwitz (sp??). Oh yeah, how about a GM too??
I'd love to see Zito in Red, we'd only need Konerko if Manny actually leaves. Having O-cab (that's my nickname for him :D) back would be cool, but you'd have to find some team willing to accept Renteria's fielding (which has been good, and bad) or move him to third á-la Valentin and A-Rod, and having a first baseman again (Currently only Youklis and Petagine are listed) would be nice. I wish the management would stop dicking around with Youk, and give him somewhere to play before he gets too frustrated and wants out.





edit: Wow, can't believe I missed that flub.

IJ Reilly
Dec 4, 2005, 11:56 AM
A little good news on the Dodger Blue front (for a change): we got Furcal for three years. Finally, a reliable lead-off hitter (for the first time since Brett Butler?) and some speed on the base paths (none since losing Dave Roberts). If/when Izturis comes back, he'll play second and Kent will move to first. Now all we need is third base, a productive outfielder, a couple of starters, a left-handed middle reliever...

Kwyjibo
Dec 4, 2005, 11:58 AM
The kent thing is speculation, Izturis doen't have the best offensive numbers and thats going to play a factor when he's ready to come back ...

Sayhey
Dec 4, 2005, 05:38 PM
Congrats, IJ, on some significant action by the new "boys in blue" regime. Furcal will help, but I still say a healthy Izturis is by far and away a better shortstop. If the arm doesn't come back and he plays second you will still have some great defense up the middle, with the best range in baseball. And, Kwyjibo, you haven't watched Izturis play much have you? Besides being a top glove man, he has developed into a pretty good hitter. Check his last full year stats (http://losangeles.dodgers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=285131).

Now, if the Giants would just get off their duffs and sign some starting pitchers we might have the makings of some real competition.

Apple
Dec 5, 2005, 03:49 PM
Dang i cant believe the braves have given up farnsworth and furcal. I thought farnsworth showed some promise last year when he got up to 99 and got to 100 a couple of times. I never thought we would even think about giving up furcal.

eva01
Dec 5, 2005, 04:11 PM
damn furcal not on red sox. i can hope for Burnett now as another pitcher for the Sox.

hmm i really want a second baseman badly....

and we best sign Damon or it will be me as pissed off as over the Thorton deal

Sayhey
Dec 5, 2005, 05:06 PM
There should be a lot of action between now and Wednesday when clubs have to decide on their own free agents or be locked out of negotiating with them. Of course, maybe we are seeing that the clubs have already made up their minds on their own players and we will have to wait until after Wednesday when the new clubs will start picking up players. Now, I've confused myself and don't know why I posted this nonsense. Damn.... will the Giants just sign somebody already! :p

IJ Reilly
Dec 5, 2005, 06:21 PM
People tend to overlook Izturis for some odd reason, especially where his bat is concerned. He was hitting well over .300 before the All Star break but still remained out of the top ten in fan voting by mid-June. His plate performance really fell off in the second half of the season, but I think we know now why that happened. Best infield glove in game, if you ask me (but I am not unbiased). As far as Kent is concerned, he played a bit of first last season, and supposedly the Dodgers weren't even going to sign Furcal if Izturis wasn't comfortable playing second and Kent first.

Kwyjibo
Dec 5, 2005, 06:22 PM
Dang i cant believe the braves have given up farnsworth and furcal. I thought farnsworth showed some promise last year when he got up to 99 and got to 100 a couple of times. I never thought we would even think about giving up furcal.

Being a cubs fan I have seen the majority of Kyle Farnsworth's career, and I think he probably has the best stuff of any cubs pitcher i've ever seen, he just doesn't know how to pitch. ( I do compare this to the likes of prior and wood) BUT as I said, he needs to learn when to throw which pitches and to control his curve. If Mariano can teach him a better theory to the game he's going to be one awesome closer in the future, with the potential to scare anybody, AND he's huge

Sayhey
Dec 6, 2005, 07:27 PM
OK, Burnett signs with Toronto, which leaves Washburn, Byrd, Morris, or maybe a trade for Zito as solutions to the Giants pitching woes. I'm starting to get depressed already. So far we have a 38 year old retread (Worrell) and the trade of a hard throwing righty set-up man (Hawkins) for a so so lefty set-up man (Kline.) I'm not inspired. :(

P.S. - Hey, IJ, you have a new manager! Grady Little? I don't know what to think.

IJ Reilly
Dec 6, 2005, 07:30 PM
OK, Burnett signs with Toronto, which leaves Washburn, Byrd, Morris, or maybe a trade for Zito as solutions to the Giants pitching woes. I'm starting to get depressed already. So far we have a 38 year old retread (Worrell) and the trade of a hard throwing righty set-up man (Hawkins) for a so so lefty set-up man (Kline.) I'm not inspired. :(

P.S. - Hey, IJ, you have a new manager! Grady Little? I don't know what to think.

Me either, but I'm happy a decision was made. Finally.

Koodauw
Dec 6, 2005, 07:45 PM
OK, Burnett signs with Toronto, which leaves Washburn, Byrd, Morris, or maybe a trade for Zito as solutions to the Giants pitching woes. I'm starting to get depressed already. So far we have a 38 year old retread (Worrell) and the trade of a hard throwing righty set-up man (Hawkins) for a so so lefty set-up man (Kline.) I'm not inspired. :(

P.S. - Hey, IJ, you have a new manager! Grady Little? I don't know what to think.

I think Byrd signed with the indians didnt he?

I think Millwood is still available.

thedude110
Dec 7, 2005, 10:52 PM
Did the sox really just get Mark Loretta for the very low price of Doug Mirabelli?

I'll give up a guy who can catch a knuckleball for a big time number two hitter any day.

eva01
Dec 7, 2005, 11:18 PM
Did the sox really just get Mark Loretta for the very low price of Doug Mirabelli?

I'll give up a guy who can catch a knuckleball for a big time number two hitter any day.

And we may be trading Renteria away too and trying to get Cabrera back ^_^

macbaseball
Dec 7, 2005, 11:48 PM
OK, Burnett signs with Toronto, which leaves Washburn, Byrd, Morris, or maybe a trade for Zito as solutions to the Giants pitching woes. I'm starting to get depressed already. So far we have a 38 year old retread (Worrell) and the trade of a hard throwing righty set-up man (Hawkins) for a so so lefty set-up man (Kline.) I'm not inspired. :(

P.S. - Hey, IJ, you have a new manager! Grady Little? I don't know what to think.

Don't get too discouraged yet - the Giants have a 2 year 8+ million dollar offer to Morris, which Morris is leaning towards accepting.

Counterfit
Dec 8, 2005, 12:45 AM
Did the sox really just get Mark Loretta for the very low price of Doug Mirabelli?

I'll give up a guy who can catch a knuckleball for a big time number two hitter any day.
Well, I hope Shoppach can catch a knuckler, because 'tek probably still can't. I'm more interested in who's going to play first. Petagine? Youklis? Millar wasn't offered arbitration, and Olerud retired, so we need someone there for every day work, not just NL games.

Sayhey
Dec 8, 2005, 03:42 AM
Don't get too discouraged yet - the Giants have a 2 year 8+ million dollar offer to Morris, which Morris is leaning towards accepting.

I'm perpetually discouraged with the Giants, but that comes with the territory. I'll take Morris in a minute, but I won't hold my breath waiting for it to happen.

btw, the news they didn't offer JT arbitration doesn't help my mood any either. Right now we're looking at Lance Niekro starting at first and that's not good. Besides, Snow was my daughter's favorite player, and I hate having to break the news to her tomorrow.

PS - Koodauw, you're right about Byrd. Another of the frenzied transactions I missed because the Giants are again NOT INVOLVED.

macbaseball
Dec 8, 2005, 09:11 AM
btw, the news they didn't offer JT arbitration doesn't help my mood any either. Right now we're looking at Lance Niekro starting at first and that's not good. Besides, Snow was my daughter's favorite player, and I hate having to break the news to her tomorrow.

Although, I'm going to miss JT's great defense, and to some extend clutch hits, I actually think it's a good sign they didn't sign him. Sabean must have something up his sleeve, because they wouldn't have let him go with Lance and Pedro in mind. I have a feeling they're going to upgrade that postion with more power, but you never know as Sabean will not overpay for anyone ever since that 4 year 28 million dollar deal he gave to Alfonzo...

IJ Reilly
Dec 8, 2005, 10:36 AM
The big news of the day is that Houston didn't offer arbitration to Roger Clemens. Will he retire? Will any other club take a chance on him lasting another year?

grapes911
Dec 8, 2005, 10:39 AM
The big news of the day is that Houston didn't offer arbitration to Roger Clemens. Will he retire? Will any other club take a chance on him lasting another year?
Is it that much of a chance? He lead the league in ERA last year (1.87). Even if it jumps up a whole 2 points, he will still be very effective for a team with decent run support. Plus, because of his training and workouts they say he is in better physical condition than most players half his age. None of this guarantees a productive year, but I don't think he is any risker than any other player.

Sayhey
Dec 8, 2005, 10:58 AM
Although, I'm going to miss JT's great defense, and to some extend clutch hits, I actually think it's a good sign they didn't sign him. Sabean must have something up his sleeve, because they wouldn't have let him go with Lance and Pedro in mind. I have a feeling they're going to upgrade that postion with more power, but you never know as Sabean will not overpay for anyone ever since that 4 year 28 million dollar deal he gave to Alfonzo...

The Chronicle is reporting Sabean has Mark Sweeney in his sights. I'm not sure how this qualifies as much of an upgrade from JT. It's also going to cost them more to sign Sweeney than JT. Anyway, I'll keep watching for the Morris signing, because without at least one pitcher of his calibre, the Giants are going nowhere.

IJ, my guess is Clemens is finally ready to retire. No question he can still pitch, but why would he leave his hometown team (for which he came out of retirement) to go and pitch somewhere else? If he really wants to play for another team, he can land a gig anywhere he wants. Every team in baseball would take a chance on his continued ability, even if only a few could pay the salary he can demand.

Josh396
Dec 8, 2005, 11:01 AM
Is it that much of a chance? He lead the league in ERA last year (1.87). Even if it jumps up a whole 2 points, he will still be very effective for a team with decent run support. Plus, because of his training and workouts they say he is in better physical condition than most players half his age. None of this guarantees a productive year, but I don't think he is any risker than any other player.
I don't think he'll retire. I just think it will be interesting to see who he plays for. If the Astros try to get some bats to help him out a little I think he could come back. Other than that, I have no idea where he could go. It would be a shame to see him retire. He's a top 5 picture in the game and could be for probably another year or two at least.

aloofman
Dec 8, 2005, 11:09 AM
The big news of the day is that Houston didn't offer arbitration to Roger Clemens. Will he retire? Will any other club take a chance on him lasting another year?

Whatever happens, it's safe to say he'll jerk everyone around until he decides.

aloofman
Dec 8, 2005, 11:19 AM
Congrats, IJ, on some significant action by the new "boys in blue" regime. Furcal will help, but I still say a healthy Izturis is by far and away a better shortstop. If the arm doesn't come back and he plays second you will still have some great defense up the middle, with the best range in baseball. And, Kwyjibo, you haven't watched Izturis play much have you? Besides being a top glove man, he has developed into a pretty good hitter. Check his last full year stats (http://losangeles.dodgers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=285131).

Now, if the Giants would just get off their duffs and sign some starting pitchers we might have the makings of some real competition.

Offensively, Izturis is somewhat of a mystery. He did have a very good hitting season in 2004, but he regressed some last season even before the injury. The other issue is that he almost never walks. He'd rather ground out to second than take a pitch. The consensus in the L.A. media seems to be that he'll be moved to second when he returns in midseason and Kent will probably move to first.

This means that Choi basically has a three-month audition at first and it's probably make-or-break for his Dodger career. Tracy infuriated me last season by keeping Choi out of the lineup. Not because Choi was so great, but because the Dodgers had no better player to put at first. It's pretty much accepted that Tracy never liked Choi and left him out to piss off DePo.

What bothers me the most is that McCourt doesn't seem to know what the hell he's doing. Fire the manager because he can't get along with the GM. Fire the GM because you don't like the potential manager replacements. Stay in limbo with no one at either post while other teams make moves. Finally hire a GM who's good at negotiating contracts but isn't much for talent evaluation. Finally hire the manager with the best W-L record among the unemployed.

I thought last year was kind of a wash because there were so many injuries that it's hard to tell whether the GM or manager were performing poorly. (Although I could make a case for firing Tracy for his attitude alone.) It seemed worthwhile to me to keep the same front office for another year just to see how the new prospects pan out. :(

IJ Reilly
Dec 8, 2005, 11:35 AM
Is it that much of a chance? He lead the league in ERA last year (1.87). Even if it jumps up a whole 2 points, he will still be very effective for a team with decent run support. Plus, because of his training and workouts they say he is in better physical condition than most players half his age. None of this guarantees a productive year, but I don't think he is any risker than any other player.

He seemed pretty pooped out at the end, which is hardly surprising. I think if any club wants him enough to pay his price, they'll want him to be healthy and rested enough for the post season, which at his age, always has to be a question mark.

Koodauw
Dec 8, 2005, 11:40 AM
the Renteria trade is an interesting one. Perhaps Nomah is on his way back to boston.:p

IJ Reilly
Dec 8, 2005, 11:46 AM
Offensively, Izturis is somewhat of a mystery. He did have a very good hitting season in 2004, but he regressed some last season even before the injury. The other issue is that he almost never walks. He'd rather ground out to second than take a pitch. The consensus in the L.A. media seems to be that he'll be moved to second when he returns in midseason and Kent will probably move to first.

This means that Choi basically has a three-month audition at first and it's probably make-or-break for his Dodger career. Tracy infuriated me last season by keeping Choi out of the lineup. Not because Choi was so great, but because the Dodgers had no better player to put at first. It's pretty much accepted that Tracy never liked Choi and left him out to piss off DePo.

What bothers me the most is that McCourt doesn't seem to know what the hell he's doing. Fire the manager because he can't get along with the GM. Fire the GM because you don't like the potential manager replacements. Stay in limbo with no one at either post while other teams make moves. Finally hire a GM who's good at negotiating contracts but isn't much for talent evaluation. Finally hire the manager with the best W-L record among the unemployed.

I thought last year was kind of a wash because there were so many injuries that it's hard to tell whether the GM or manager were performing poorly. (Although I could make a case for firing Tracy for his attitude alone.) It seemed worthwhile to me to keep the same front office for another year just to see how the new prospects pan out. :(

I suspect Izturis was nursing an elbow problem long before it turned into Tommy John surgery. I think this explains his steady deterioration at the plate after the first two months of the season. I think his average peaked at around .340, so we know he can bring it.

I thought Choi deserved a better shot at the game than Tracy was apparently willing to give him last season, but it looks like he'll get a better one this year (though he could still be platooned at first with Saenz, who was just resigned). Even in a limited role Choi performed pretty well. Now, if he could only learn to hit the breaking ball...

Don't get me started on McCourt. We're stuck with him and I want to hold out some hope.

macbaseball
Dec 8, 2005, 04:46 PM
The Chronicle is reporting Sabean has Mark Sweeney in his sights. I'm not sure how this qualifies as much of an upgrade from JT. It's also going to cost them more to sign Sweeney than JT. Anyway, I'll keep watching for the Morris signing, because without at least one pitcher of his calibre, the Giants are going nowhere.

They finalized the deal. According to ESPN.com, he's a role player not an everyday player. That's fine with me. For the [rice, he's exactly what the Giants need - a lefty of the bench.

thedude110
Dec 8, 2005, 05:40 PM
the Renteria trade is an interesting one. Perhaps Nomah is on his way back to boston.:p

I don't know what to make of this. Does anyone know anything about this Andy Marte (http://www.bravesbeat.com/bravesjournal/archives/2004/08/who_is_andy_mar.html)kid? If he's a prospect that's going to make such an immediate impact, why does he have only 57 major league at bats? And why is he hitting .140? And who's going to play shortstop? Alex Cora?

This has gotta be about spiting Theo ... :mad:

Sox
Dec 8, 2005, 07:27 PM
Marte may be the real deal. Baseball America rated him ahead of Hanley Ramirez and the much-ballyhooed Lastings Milledge.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/online/features/04top10s/braves.html

Peter Gammons was on WEEI earlier saying something to the effect of "Boston fans will remember where they were when the Sox got Andy Marte." Good enough for Ol' Hickory, good enough for me.

As far as SS goes, they may go after Alex Gonzalez (FLA). Otherwise, Dustin Pedroia may be ready.

Sox
Dec 8, 2005, 07:53 PM
From AP:

SANTO DOMINGO, Dominican Republic - Baltimore Orioles shortstop Miguel Tejada said Thursday he's unhappy with the team's direction and wants to be traded.

"I've been with the Orioles for two years and things haven't gone in the direction that we were expecting, so I think the best thing will be a change of scenery," Tejada told The Associated Press in a phone interview in his native Dominican Republic...

"...I've done many things with this team and I haven't seen results, and the other teams are getting stronger while the Orioles have not made any signings to strengthen the club," Tejada added.

Tejada's comments came as the Orioles and free agent catcher Ramon Hernandez and the Orioles agreed to a $27.5 million, four-year contract.

The addition of Hernandez will mean less time behind the plate for Orioles catcher Javy Lopez, who complained of sore knees toward the end of last season. Lopez is eager to spend more time as a designated hitter and at first base.

Baltimore also might trade the Puerto Rican for a starting pitcher, one of the team's biggest needs.

A source close to Tejada, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said Tejada would like to be traded to a team on the East Coast, and specifically mentioned the Boston Red Sox as his choice destination.



Yikes.

macbaseball
Dec 11, 2005, 04:30 PM
I'll keep watching for the Morris signing, because without at least one pitcher of his calibre, the Giants are going nowhere.

Accroding to ESPN.com, the Giants are the front runners to get Morris. Apparently, Morris is pissed that the Cardinals had their sights set on Burnett, so he informed them he wasn't coming back.

As for Tejada, I would love to see a Tejada for Manny trade. I think that would be a steal for the Sox, as Manny seems to be heading in a weird direction. (He would fit in great with the rest of the Orioles)

eva01
Dec 11, 2005, 05:03 PM
wooo Clemens maybe back to the Sox

maybe.....

Sayhey
Dec 12, 2005, 08:08 AM
Accroding to ESPN.com, the Giants are the front runners to get Morris. Apparently, Morris is pissed that the Cardinals had their sights set on Burnett, so he informed them he wasn't coming back.

I've all my fingers and toes crossed while wondering how the Giants are going to blow this one! Of course, if they do sign Morris I won't be satisfied. Next we need Washburn to round out the rotation, then signing Nomar to play third and bat in front of Barry, then perhaps Burnitz to provide left-handed pop off the bench ... ;)

Right now I'm also worried the Dodgers are going to sign Snow to fill their temporary gap at first. The sight of Kent and Snow playing the right side of the infield in Dodger blue just maybe more than I can stand!

Counterfit
Dec 12, 2005, 08:38 AM
wooo Clemens maybe back to the Sox

maybe.....
Last night, my cousin tried telling me that the Sox are going to have a ****** year because they lost the "core" of their team, and that Varitek is going to leave. He also said the Yankees are going to have an "awesome" year. Uh, right. :rolleyes:

Then he ordered a sundae, even though I was paying for his broke ass :mad:

IJ Reilly
Dec 12, 2005, 10:13 AM
Right now I'm also worried the Dodgers are going to sign Snow to fill their temporary gap at first. The sight of Kent and Snow playing the right side of the infield in Dodger blue just maybe more than I can stand!

I have my doubts about the Snow deal coming to pass. If it does, an infielder becomes surplus midseason, when Izturis returns to the lineup. Of course if it drive Giants fans crazy... that's almost a good enough reason to do it! :)

Sayhey
Dec 12, 2005, 03:29 PM
I have my doubts about the Snow deal coming to pass. If it does, an infielder becomes surplus midseason, when Izturis returns to the lineup. Of course if it drive Giants fans crazy... that's almost a good enough reason to do it! :)

With Colletti making decisions for the Dodgers I wouldn't be surprised if he signs a proven commodity like Snow to help his team through a rough patch. The question is will Snow find a team willing to give him a shot at playing every day without the prospect of losing his job half way through the season? I'm hoping it's with anyone other than the bums. :(

btw it is now official that Morris (http://sanfrancisco.giants.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051212&content_id=1280848&vkey=news_sf&fext=.jsp&c_id=sf) has signed with the Giants. It's a good start.

Sox
Dec 12, 2005, 04:28 PM
Last night, my cousin tried telling me that the Sox are going to have a ****** year because they lost the "core" of their team, and that Varitek is going to leave. He also said the Yankees are going to have an "awesome" year. Uh, right. :rolleyes:

Then he ordered a sundae, even though I was paying for his broke ass :mad:


Varitek is going to leave? Kevin Millar's and his nine HRs were the core of the team? I think your cousin owes you a sundae.

IJ Reilly
Dec 12, 2005, 04:56 PM
With Colletti making decisions for the Dodgers I wouldn't be surprised if he signs a proven commodity like Snow to help his team through a rough patch. The question is will Snow find a team willing to give him a shot at playing every day without the prospect of losing his job half way through the season? I'm hoping it's with anyone other than the bums. :(

The stove is getting pretty cold over here. Hey we signed Sandy Alomar Jr! So what am I complaining about?

True, Colletti probably has a bias towards a known quantity like Snow. The fact is, I don't think the Dodgers really need a first baseman at the moment. At worst they have a good platoon of Choi and Seanz at first, with the prospect of Kent moving over in July. It's the other corner of the infield that isn't covered.

aloofman
Dec 12, 2005, 06:51 PM
The stove is getting pretty cold over here. Hey we signed Sandy Alomar Jr! So what am I complaining about?

True, Colletti probably has a bias towards a known quantity like Snow. The fact is, I don't think the Dodgers really need a first baseman at the moment. At worst they have a good platoon of Choi and Seanz at first, with the prospect of Kent moving over in July. It's the other corner of the infield that isn't covered.

That's the biggest reason for it not to happen. Snow is not an improvement over the first base platoon they have now, and since he's a "veteran" player who will command a higher salary, he's really not an improvement. Doesn't mean Colletti won't still do it though.

Sayhey
Dec 12, 2005, 11:14 PM
That's the biggest reason for it not to happen. Snow is not an improvement over the first base platoon they have now, and since he's a "veteran" player who will command a higher salary, he's really not an improvement. Doesn't mean Colletti won't still do it though.

I have to disagree with you aloofman. Snow is the best defensive first baseman I've ever seen play the game. Better than Parker (Wes not Dave,) better than Hernandez, and better than Donnie Ballgame. As a hitter he has become solid if not spectacular. Is that better than the Dodgers' platoon? Choi has a hole in his swing the size of a mac truck. Saenz is a perennial bench player with no prospects as a starter. Only thing they have over Snow is age. Now if you're talking Kent as a alternative at first, then I give the nod to him because of his quality bat.

As to third, I read rumors the Dodgers are going for a trade involving David Bell. Heard anything?

Koodauw
Dec 12, 2005, 11:31 PM
I have to disagree with you aloofman. Snow is the best defensive first baseman I've ever seen play the game. Better than Parker (Wes not Dave,) better than Hernandez, and better than Donnie Ballgame. As a hitter he has become solid if not spectacular. Is that better than the Dodgers' platoon? Choi has a hole in his swing the size of a mac truck. Saenz is a perennial bench player with no prospects as a starter. Only thing they have over Snow is age. Now if you're talking Kent as a alternative at first, then I give the nod to him because of his quality bat.

As to third, I read rumors the Dodgers are going for a trade involving David Bell. Heard anything?

Are you kidding me?

Jason Giambi is by far the best 1st baseman in the game. At the plate or in the field. :p

Sayhey
Dec 13, 2005, 12:14 AM
Are you kidding me?

Jason Giambi is by far the best 1st baseman in the game. At the plate or in the field. :p

There was a day when Jason could hit a ton. Monster shots. Who knows he may get back to those days; there were moments last year when he looked like his old self. However, there is also a reason they have a DH in the American League and that reason is players like Jason Giambi. Now if the Yanks could just figure out a way to politely convince Giambi that half of the game is played in the field, they would win a lot more games. Catch the ball, Jason. That's a good boy! ;)

Apple
Dec 13, 2005, 06:48 AM
Finally the braves did something for themselves in signing Renteria

gwuMACaddict
Dec 13, 2005, 07:18 AM
now tejada is saying that he never wanted to be traded, the "change of scenery" comment just meant that he wanted to see new faces on the team...

errr...

can't blame him either way...

IJ Reilly
Dec 13, 2005, 10:28 AM
As to third, I read rumors the Dodgers are going for a trade involving David Bell. Heard anything?

Not a thing. Not even any good whispers about third, or the vacancies in the outfield or rotation. Where did you hear the Bell rumor?

As for first, this long-suffering Dodger fan could stand the Choi/Saenz platoon until mid-season. I've seen flashes of greatness in Choi and I'd like see the kid get another opportunity to play under new management. We know he can hit a ton. Maybe he just needs more playing time.

aloofman
Dec 13, 2005, 11:36 AM
I have to disagree with you aloofman. Snow is the best defensive first baseman I've ever seen play the game. Better than Parker (Wes not Dave,) better than Hernandez, and better than Donnie Ballgame. As a hitter he has become solid if not spectacular. Is that better than the Dodgers' platoon? Choi has a hole in his swing the size of a mac truck. Saenz is a perennial bench player with no prospects as a starter. Only thing they have over Snow is age. Now if you're talking Kent as a alternative at first, then I give the nod to him because of his quality bat.

As to third, I read rumors the Dodgers are going for a trade involving David Bell. Heard anything?

I hadn't heard Bell. The word is that they were pursuing Bill Mueller or Joe Randa. Whoop dee freakin' doo.

We're going to have to keep disagreeing about Snow. His great glove doesn't make up for an only occasionally hot bat and he has little power. That would be OK for a second baseman or catcher, but not at first base. None of these guys are world-beaters, but Saenz and Choi are at least as productive on offense and far cheaper. Snow wouldn't save enough errors in a season to make up the difference in my mind.

Favorite J.T. Snow story: when he first started a season with the Angels, he tore up the league for about 4-6 weeks, hit over .400, and everybody was about to anoint him the next great young star. Right about then the LA Times had a story recalling a previous Angels star (from the 1960s or '70s, can't remember which). That guy had also had a hot start as a rookie, but went ice cold soon after, so cold that he was sent back to the minors by season's end. After that Times article the same thing happened to Snow. He was only AAA for a little while and he bounced back up to stay. And later of course the Giants got him for a song. At the time there was no way to know Snow's career would last this long, but even then I remember thinking the Angels got hosed.

I haven't heard about many Giants moves lately. Am I right in guessing that last year's veteran player spending spree has kind of tied their hands now?

Sayhey
Dec 13, 2005, 12:43 PM
IJ and aloofman, the Bell rumor comes from ESPN (http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/features/rumors?&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fmlb%2ffeatures%2frumors). I don't pay for their "insider" sites, but they had a little more information on Monday that I can't find. Now all that is available to the non-paying customer is comment under Monday's "The Skinny" of "Dodgers ringing Bell?" Sorry, I can't give you more.

aloofman, one more comment on JT and I'll let it slide. Snow was the streaky hitter you describe for most of his career with the Giants. That was true especially when he was a switch-hitter - he was hopeless as a right handed batter. However, his game has changed the last few years and he has become a very consistent hitter, with a much higher batting average and on-base percentage than any time in his major league tenure. The sacrifice is the loss of most of his power. Anyway, whoever gets him will have a good hitter, a great defensive player and a quality guy in the clubhouse. I'm just hoping it's not your team. ;)

IJ, I agree Choi has his moments, but is the guy ever going to figure out how to hit a breaking ball? I remember Matt Williams was in a similar situation and he finally broke through to become a star. I also remember a guy on the Giants named JR Phillips who had the power and the defense to become a stand out first baseman for years to come. Can you remember him? He never figured out how to hit the breaking ball and is consigned to obscure trivia contests. Which one will Choi follow? I don't know, but I know, that right now, he doesn't scare anyone who can throw a pitch that moves. To me the question becomes, how many of these type players can a team have on their roster? Unless you give up and say this is a rebuilding year, I don't think you can have very many, especially as starters.

edit: oops! sorry, aloofman, I forgot to respond to your last comment. The one that really hurts is not the free agents from last year, but the big bucks they are paying to Edgardo Alfonzo. Now, you folks are in need of a third baseman ... ;)

IJ Reilly
Dec 13, 2005, 01:09 PM
You said it before I did. After a 91-loss season, I'm consigned to a building year. This might mean having a longer look at Choi, and some of the other young players, than we've had so far. I'm certainly aware of his problems hitting the breaking stuff and with left-hand pitching, but still he batted .250 with 15 homers last year in a limited role, so he's hardly embarrassing. He's also entirely adequate defensively. He's no Steve Garvey, but not a hammer-hands by any means. Probably what's really gnawing at me is the prospect of him being traded in favor of a fading veteran, and then seeing him develop into a solid player somewhere else.

Sayhey
Dec 13, 2005, 01:16 PM
You said it before I did. After a 91-loss season, I'm consigned to a building year. This might mean having a longer look at Choi, and some of the other young players, than we've had so far. I'm certainly aware of his problems hitting the breaking stuff and with left-hand pitching, but still he batted .250 with 15 homers last year in a limited role, so he's hardly embarrassing. He's also entirely adequate defensively. He's no Steve Garvey, but not a hammer-hands by any means. Probably what's really gnawing at me is the prospect of him being traded in favor of a fading veteran, and then seeing him develop into a solid player somewhere else.


I can understand your sentiments, but with the signing of Furcal haven't the Dodgers signaled that they are only going to go with the Choi/Saenz platoon for the first half of the year? I don't know about you, IJ, but to me unless they plan on unloading Izturis, the future of first base seems to be Jeff Kent. It looks like the Dodgers are going to look for a short term solution at third and give their rookies there a chance to develop, not Choi.

aloofman
Dec 13, 2005, 01:40 PM
IJ, I agree Choi has his moments, but is the guy ever going to figure out how to hit a breaking ball? I remember Matt Williams was in a similar situation and he finally broke through to become a star. I also remember a guy on the Giants named JR Phillips who had the power and the defense to become a stand out first baseman for years to come. Can you remember him? He never figured out how to hit the breaking ball and is consigned to obscure trivia contests. Which one will Choi follow? I don't know, but I know, that right now, he doesn't scare anyone who can throw a pitch that moves. To me the question becomes, how many of these type players can a team have on their roster? Unless you give up and say this is a rebuilding year, I don't think you can have very many, especially as starters.

edit: oops! sorry, aloofman, I forgot to respond to your last comment. The one that really hurts is not the free agents from last year, but the big bucks they are paying to Edgardo Alfonzo. Now, you folks are in need of a third baseman ... ;)

You haven't convinced me on Snow, but if a Giants fan doesn't like the idea, then it can't be all bad. And if you want to unload Alfonzo, we can't possibly want him. Unless you're just saying that in hopes that we'll do the opposite, in which case we will act accordingly!

Believe it or not, I actually remember JR Phillips. Around 1995 I attended a Padres game at the Murph vs. the Giants. Phillips came to the plate sporting a sub-.150 average but with a couple homers. My roommate boldly predicted he'd go yard now, I told him he was a moron, and of course Phillips did hit it out, and I lost five bucks. Because of that, I did remember his name when I heard it over the next year or two. My recollection is that he was one of those guys that a team was sure would work out eventually but never did.

Re Choi: I think he's worth keeping at first for a few reasons: (1) the Dodgers don't have anyone better at that position right now, (2) almost anyone else they get to play it will cost a lot more, and (3) I think his production suffered last year because Tracy used him so sparingly. I think the first couple months of '06 will be his real audition and a chance to prove he belongs there. Otherwise they'll unload him and he'll end up with a middling career in Tampa or something.

aloofman
Dec 13, 2005, 01:46 PM
I can understand your sentiments, but with the signing of Furcal haven't the Dodgers signaled that they are only going to go with the Choi/Saenz platoon for the first half of the year? I don't know about you, IJ, but to me unless they plan on unloading Izturis, the future of first base seems to be Jeff Kent. It looks like the Dodgers are going to look for a short term solution at third and give their rookies there a chance to develop, not Choi.

Honestly, I still don't know what to make of the Furcal signing. It's not exactly a vote of confidence in Izturis. I really thought that they'd be going for third base, a power outfielder and another starter before shortstop would even come up. I know they needed a real leadoff man (which Izturis is not because he hardly ever walks), but I'm still a little puzzled by the whole thing.

Kent is only signed through 2006, as far as I know. So I don't consider him a real solution at first. If the Dodgers get off to a bad start, it's reasonable to expect them to trade Kent. His real value is at second, so to me putting him at first is kind of like admitting defeat or something.

Sayhey
Dec 13, 2005, 01:54 PM
OK, I agree to disagree on JT. Now, how about a Choi for Alfonzo swap? Which probably tells you more about what I think about the Giants own first base project, otherwise known as Lance Niekro, than about any vote of confidence in Choi. The Giants are paying about 6 million for what looks like a back up utility infielder in the person of Alfonzo. He still has a great glove and is an acceptable contact hitter, but no range and little power. Just what you folks need.

Isn't Kent your best hitter? How do you not look to keep him?

aloofman
Dec 13, 2005, 03:20 PM
Isn't Kent your best hitter? How do you not look to keep him?

In the grand scheme of things, he probably is. I would argue that when he's healthy, Drew is our best hitter. But the first part of that sentence is more important than the last.

Keeping Kent would depend greatly on whether his production stays high in 2006, how much money he wants, how much longer he wants to play, and whether the Dodgers are contending in July. I don't know how many of those things the team has any control over. Kent is a Socal native, but I understand that he lives in Arizona or Texas or something. Kent doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who would give a hometown discount. Or, you know, a guy who would offer anyone anything. I believe he's a 10/5 guy who could veto any trade.

On the other hand, maybe the best-case scenario is that Choi plays well at first, Izturis comes back and does well at second, and they have the luxury of trading Kent for solid prospects or pitching. Hell, I don't know.

Sayhey
Dec 13, 2005, 03:56 PM
From an outsider's perspective, when I look at the Dodgers I see some very good things and a lot of holes. I see a lineup that starts: Furcal (major upgrade,) izturis, JD Drew, Kent, and Werth. That's an ok top of the order without giving up much in defense. Now I understand Navarro is worth waiting for and as an eighth place hitter he is worth taking the immediate problems of his tender age for the promise of his defense and hopefully someday a star on offense as well. Which leaves your sixth and seventh spots and Centerfield and Third base respectively. You've got to get rid of Bradley and Jose Cruz isn't the answer - trust me on this. Third base I guess goes, for now, to Robles. Somehow, Colletti has to fill these positions and I'm guessing it's not going to be from within. Only problem with that is he also has to replace Weaver in the starting rotation, which I take as his biggest problem.

If Colletti can pull off a trade with the Philles for Bell, your problems at third are solved, but it looks to me like he has got to sign a legit CF (what is Preston Wilson doing these days?) and a middle of the rotation starter (going to cost a lot in this market.) Heh, the LA boys at least look better than they did at the end of the year, which is a lot more than I can say for the Padres, D'backs, and Rockies.

edit: here is a new rumor for the Dodger outfield - Jacque Jones (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2257513). What do you think?

IJ Reilly
Dec 13, 2005, 04:33 PM
For the record, Kent is signed only through '06. He's already made noises about asking for a trade if the Dodgers aren't acting like they want to be competitive. I think by the end of July, either Kent or Choi become trade bait; Kent if they aren't competitive, Choi if they are. Assuming of course that Izturis comes back well enough to play second. This must be Colletti's thinking, given that Izturis is too valuable not to want back, but will remain a question mark until long after opening day. If the "winning" scenario plays out, and Colletti gets to move Choi, it can only boosts his trade value if Choi plays some ball in April-May-June. The bench is not much of a showcase. If the Dodgers are out of things by July, Kent gets unloaded, possibly for a prospect or two.

As for the outfield, personally, I was hoping the Dodgers would get Dave Roberts back. Not much pop, but can you imagine him in the number two spot in the order after Furcal? Alas, he has re-signed with San Diego.

aloofman
Dec 13, 2005, 04:42 PM
I think Antonio Perez would have been a better option at third because in his brief time he's shown more consistency at the plate. The problem is that he naturally plays short and didn't take well to third base. That and he recently broke his face playing in the Dominican.

Preston Wilson does not excite me at all. He strikes out too much and his numbers were inflated in Denver. Again, doesn't mean Colletti won't get him.

So I could return the favor on the Giants: It looks to me like their rotation depends on whether you get the good Lowry or the crappy one. I know he's had good stretches where you think, "Man, this guy can make a great #2 to Schmidt." And then I've seen at least a couple games where I thought, "Even I know not to throw that guy that pitch." Assuming Benitez stays healthy, the bullpen should be decent during the regular season, at least.

Obviously they got Sweeney to improve their outfield depth now that Grissom finally ran out of gas. You'd probably rather have Feliz at first instead of Niekro, but if Bonds and/or Alou go down for any length of time (and you gotta figure at least one will), then you need Feliz in the outfield too.

From what I can tell, third is their biggest hole, along with the big bats getting older. As usual, it all really seems to be on Bonds' shoulders because he's the difference between a pretty good scoring team and a lineup that can be dealt with. Does anyone on the planet know Bonds' physical state? Obviously you can never be sure about his knee at his age, but eventually his production has to tail off. I know everyone has been predicting it for years, but sooner or later it has to happen. He seems like a real wild card to me.

aloofman
Dec 13, 2005, 04:58 PM
For the record, Kent is signed only through '06. He's already made noises about asking for a trade if the Dodgers aren't acting like they want to be competitive. I think by the end of July, either Kent or Choi become trade bait; Kent if they aren't competitive, Choi if they are. Assuming of course that Izturis comes back well enough to play second. This must be Colletti's thinking, given that Izturis is too valuable not to want back, but will remain a question mark until long after opening day. If the "winning" scenario plays out, and Colletti gets to move Choi, it can only boosts his trade value if Choi plays some ball in April-May-June. The bench is not much of a showcase. If the Dodgers are out of things by July, Kent gets unloaded, possibly for a prospect or two.

As for the outfield, personally, I was hoping the Dodgers would get Dave Roberts back. Not much pop, but can you imagine him in the number two spot in the order after Furcal? Alas, he has re-signed with San Diego.

I agree that they're waiting to see whether to move Kent or Choi. The right side of the infield will soon get too crowded and someone will have to go. If they both played really well then that would be a nice problem to have.

While I liked Roberts and thought he was a good guy, speed was his only real asset. He didn't work a count or get on base enough to really play leadoff. More importantly, I don't think there's enough room for him in the outfield right now, unless you're assuming that Drew will be out for a long time. Getting benched in favor of more productive players was the reason they traded him to Boston in the first place. I don't see him being better than the Ledee, Cruz, or Werth. From a personal standpoint, I'd rather he be getting regular playing time in San Diego than as the Dodger pinch runner.

IJ Reilly
Dec 13, 2005, 05:07 PM
I agree that they're waiting to see whether to move Kent or Choi. The right side of the infield will soon get too crowded and someone will have to go. If they both played really well then that would be a nice problem to have.

While I liked Roberts and thought he was a good guy, speed was his only real asset. He didn't work a count or get on base enough to really play leadoff. More importantly, I don't think there's enough room for him in the outfield right now, unless you're assuming that Drew will be out for a long time. Getting benched in favor of more productive players was the reason they traded him to Boston in the first place. I don't see him being better than the Ledee, Cruz, or Werth. From a personal standpoint, I'd rather he be getting regular playing time in San Diego than as the Dodger pinch runner.

Oddly, Dave Roberts got almost no playing time in Boston. I think he's better defensively than either Werth or Ledee, and always a threat when he's on base. Possibly not the ideal leadoff hitter, but I can see him working very well in the number two spot. I think he got traded because DePodesta didn't value speed on the basepaths. I have an idea this was one of the areas of conflict between Tracy and DePodesta.

Sayhey
Dec 13, 2005, 05:10 PM
Sounds like a good scenario to me, IJ, but it means ending any type of platoon at first and giving Choi a shot to show he can grow into the job. If Choi is as good as you hope he is then you will have a wonderful delimma come Izturis return. Overall, I think you give the Dodgers too little credit; they will be in the hunt for the division and maybe more with the right additions.

aloofman, I must confess I know too little about Perez (late breaking news - he went in a trade with Bradley (http://losangeles.dodgers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051213&content_id=12) to the A's for an outfield prospect) to comment, but wouldn't you rather have Bell? About the Giants, I don't think their problem is at third. Either Feliz or Alfonzo plays the position well and if you take the good with the bad they both are a plus at the plate. Feliz strikes out too much, but has great power. Alfonzo will hit for a better average, but has lost almost all his power. Just depends on what we get from the rest of the lineup. My biggest concern is another starting pitcher and what happens with Niekro at First.

I like much of the Giants rotation, Schmidt and Morris are a great one, two punch, and Lowry is just coming into his own. Noah had the kind of start last year you would think a player in his first full year would have - rocky, but he straightened it out and showed he is a star in the making. Cain had a end of the year like Lowry had the year before and I expect the same kind of ups and downs from him. He has a tremendous potential and I'm all for letting the kid pitch as their number 5 starter. What I'm not excited about is the fourth starter, Brad Hennessey or Kevin Correia. Either one is fine as a spot starter coming out of bullpen, but no team should go into a season with 40% of their starting rotation as green as this. The Dodgers share this with the Giants, with the prospect of starting Jackson as their number 5 and who knows who as number 4. Both teams need a middle of the order starter, and both teams could do with a lefty in that role. Want to fight over Washburn? ;)

Yes, it all depends on Bonds and Alou's health. If they can stay in the lineup the Giants will drive in runs. If not then we will have to try and play small ball. Say, isn't that the same with the Dodgers without Drew?

aloofman
Dec 13, 2005, 05:34 PM
I agree the Dodgers will be in the hunt for the division, partly because no one else has really improved either. I think maybe all of our fretting is about trying to avoid being a rehash of the 2005 Padres: division winners, but still crappy.

On the one hand, the Dodgers traded two injured and somewhat problematic players for a highly-regarded prospect, so that's good. But it also makes them even thinner among players with big league experience. Either Colletti has a 3B in mind, or he thinks Robles will do. And of course it depends on whether the prospect pans out or not. I suppose the trade makes Kent slightly less disgruntled too.

I always thought Bell was a bit overrated. His numbers are average for a 3B and he played in hitter-happy Philly. I suppose it's a matter of whether they went to spend $4-5m to get a little better at that position.

I'd be happy to fight over Washburn as long as the Giants win and pay him too much. :p

Sayhey
Dec 13, 2005, 05:42 PM
At this point I don't care if they pay too much to Washburn or any other starting pitcher as long as we have a quality rotation going into the season. 50 plus years without a Series title is too long for this Giants fan. Of course, it is not my money to spend.

I agree the trade does seem to be the first of others to come. Bell makes more sense now than before. He isn't going to make you forget Beltre, but he'll provide solid defense and clutch hitting. Now who plays center if they don't make a trade there?

aloofman
Dec 13, 2005, 06:22 PM
I agree the trade does seem to be the first of others to come. Bell makes more sense now than before. He isn't going to make you forget Beltre, but he'll provide solid defense and clutch hitting. Now who plays center if they don't make a trade there?

Do you mean the phenomenal 2004 Beltre? Because I never expect to see the likes of that again. If Bell turned out to be the pre-2004 Beltre, that wouldn't be so bad, but it seems like a short-term fix because he's well past 30.

Last spring training there was a teapot tempest when Drew expressed a desire to play center, the logic being that right field would put more stress on his knee. Since Bradley was already there and was only in partial meltdown, he deferred. Now that Bradley is gone, I expect Drew will say he wants to play center again. Last season after Bradley went down it was Repko who played center, but so far he's been a classic all-field, no-hit outfielder. If Repko can hit decently, then I would he happy to keep Drew in right because having both Cruz and Ledee as starters is a physical breakdown waiting to happen. Like Bonds and Alou without the offense.

Sayhey
Dec 13, 2005, 06:38 PM
Do you mean the phenomenal 2004 Beltre? Because I never expect to see the likes of that again. If Bell turned out to be the pre-2004 Beltre, that wouldn't be so bad, but it seems like a short-term fix because he's well past 30.

Last spring training there was a teapot tempest when Drew expressed a desire to play center, the logic being that right field would put more stress on his knee. Since Bradley was already there and was only in partial meltdown, he deferred. Now that Bradley is gone, I expect Drew will say he wants to play center again. Last season after Bradley went down it was Repko who played center, but so far he's been a classic all-field, no-hit outfielder. If Repko can hit decently, then I would he happy to keep Drew in right because having both Cruz and Ledee as starters is a physical breakdown waiting to happen. Like Bonds and Alou without the offense.

Bell is certainly a short term solution, but don't the Dodgers have two young infield prospects for the future (Young and LaRoche I believe.) If either are as good as advertised, you're only talking a year or two with Bell.

I don't understand how right field puts greater strain on Drew's knee. It strikes me it should be the reverse, with the greater area a centerfielder must cover. Maybe if the rumors about Jones are true they will put Drew in center and Jones in right. It would solve the problem, again, assuming Drew stays healthy. With Cruz and and Ledee, my take is that they both define streak hitters. Cruz, especially, can get hot and jerk some balls out of the park, but for most of the time he just flails at pitches. Of course, I'm biased as hell; I can't forget his dropped ball against the Marlins in the 2003 playoffs.

aloofman
Dec 13, 2005, 07:16 PM
I don't understand how right field puts greater strain on Drew's knee. It strikes me it should be the reverse, with the greater area a centerfielder must cover. Maybe if the rumors about Jones are true they will put Drew in center and Jones in right. It would solve the problem, again, assuming Drew stays healthy. With Cruz and and Ledee, my take is that they both define streak hitters. Cruz, especially, can get hot and jerk some balls out of the park, but for most of the time he just flails at pitches. Of course, I'm biased as hell; I can't forget his dropped ball against the Marlins in the 2003 playoffs.

The theory is that a corner outfielder has to field more balls that are changing direction, bouncing into the corner, off angled walls, that kind of thing. Switching directions while running puts far more strain on fragile knee ligaments than running in a straight line does. I don't know if this was just Drew's theory, or if there's any reason to think that it's true. Drew apparently did play center in the minors but he knew he'd never play there in St. Louis (Edmonds) or Atlanta (Jones). So it might be that he just wants to return to a position that he enjoys playing. At any rate, I imagine the Dodgers will at least try him out there, since he's by far the highest-paid outfielder.

I take it you're referring to Jacque Jones for center field? It sounds more like a suggestion than a real rumor. I don't know.

macbaseball
Dec 13, 2005, 07:32 PM
I take it you're referring to Jacque Jones for center field? It sounds more like a suggestion than a real rumor. I don't know.

Well, according to ESPN.com, it's a suggestion, as the Dodgers aren't interested in Jones accroding to them.

Sayhey
Dec 13, 2005, 07:42 PM
Well, according to ESPN.com, it's a suggestion, as the Dodgers aren't interested in Jones accroding to them.

Oh really? The story (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2257513) I read on ESPN said just the opposite. Where did you get the info the Dodgers aren't interested? If it's true I don't know enough about Jones to say if he'd be better than Drew in center or he should play right. I do take it that it's an indication the Dodgers are looking for an established outfielder.

IJ Reilly
Dec 13, 2005, 08:24 PM
Oh really? The story (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2257513) I read on ESPN said just the opposite. Where did you get the info the Dodgers aren't interested? If it's true I don't know enough about Jones to say if he'd be better than Drew in center or he should play right. I do take it that it's an indication the Dodgers are looking for an established outfielder.

They have to be now that Bradley is gone. They had to before Bradley was gone -- because there was never any knowing if or when he'd implode. Or explode. Or whatever it is he's doing when he breaks a bat over his thigh.

According to mlb.com, Jones is close to a deal with St. Louis, and the Dodgers are still talking to Damon.

macbaseball
Dec 13, 2005, 08:52 PM
According to mlb.com, Jones is close to a deal with St. Louis, and the Dodgers are still talking to Damon.

Sorry SayHey. I hadn't read that article. The ones I've read back up the Dodgers interest in Damon, not Jones.

Sayhey
Dec 13, 2005, 09:02 PM
Sorry SayHey. I hadn't read that article. The ones I've read back up the Dodgers interest in Damon, not Jones.

No need to be sorry, just asking where you read it. Now if the Dodgers get Damon that would be a disaster. I don't like the idea of Furcal and Damon leading off the Dodgers lineup. Jones would be bad enough. I'm hoping they go with a platoon of Ledee and Cruz - only they have to play the guy who is mired in the 0 for 64 slump.

aloofman
Dec 14, 2005, 11:23 AM
No need to be sorry, just asking where you read it. Now if the Dodgers get Damon that would be a disaster. I don't like the idea of Furcal and Damon leading off the Dodgers lineup. Jones would be bad enough. I'm hoping they go with a platoon of Ledee and Cruz - only they have to play the guy who is mired in the 0 for 64 slump.

Supposedly the Red Sox offered him 4 years, $40 million. I don't know if he's worth more than that. He's 32 and not quite the fielder he used to be.

thedude110
Dec 14, 2005, 11:29 AM
Supposedly the Red Sox offered him 4 years, $40 million. I don't know if he's worth more than that. He's 32 and not quite the fielder he used to be.

As a Sox fan, I wouldn't give him more than 3 years. He's getting gimpy, he's slowing down -- I wouldn't want him at 36!

And that nut Scott Boras wants someone to sign Damon to a seven year deal ...

IJ Reilly
Dec 14, 2005, 11:43 AM
If that's the case, then I very much doubt that Damon will be going to LA. It would be shocking to see him offered more than three years at his age, not especially from the Dodgers, who have a lot of outfield talent coming up through the farm system, and an ownership that doesn't seem to believe in long term deals.

Problem is, the free agent outfield pool is pretty slim pickings this year. Worse comes to worse, I think the Dodger can go with what they've got. Drew/Werth/Ledee/Cruz/Repko/Edwards isn't a world-beating outfield, but neither is it shabby.

Koodauw
Dec 14, 2005, 12:08 PM
Looks like Vasquez might be going to the ChiSox. The World Champion Chicago White Sox have traded for Javier Vazquez, adding pitching power to a starting rotation that included four pitchers with double-digit wins last season.

The Arizona Diamondbacks will send Vazquez to the White Sox, ESPN.com Insider Jerry Crasnick confirmed Wednesday.

In exchange, Orlando "El Duque" Hernandez, reliever Luis Vizcaino and outfield prospect Chris Young will be sent to Arizona.

The deal has yet to be announced by the teams because Arizona is sending cash to the White Sox, which requires the commissioner's approval. Also, the players must take physical exams...

A good trade for the Sox if you ask me. Might make up for the Thome Blunder.

aloofman
Dec 14, 2005, 02:20 PM
Apparently the Dodgers have filled the 3B position:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2258951

I like the idea of a short veteran contract here the same way I liked signing Kent a year ago. I reserve the right to change my mind if they're paying him too much.

Now if only they had another starter, and an outfielder with some pop, and...

Sox
Dec 14, 2005, 02:56 PM
I love Billy Mueller, the Yankee Kueller. Almost to an irrational extent. Pesky hitter, and an underrated glove. Dodger fans will love him, too.

Sayhey
Dec 14, 2005, 03:45 PM
Now, if the Dodgers sign Snow and Aurilia they can recreate the Giants infield of the late '90s. I KNOW that's what you Dodger fans really want. Unlike Kent, it's going to be hard to boo Billy, but I'll do my best. ;)

IJ Reilly
Dec 14, 2005, 04:45 PM
Good choice, solid performer. We're getting there.

(Sayhey, wish as you might that the Dodgers become a collection of Giant cast-offs, it seems more like Grady Little is reassembling his Boston team.)

eva01
Dec 14, 2005, 04:51 PM
Good choice, solid performer. We're getting there.

(Sayhey, wish as you might that the Dodgers become a collection of Giant cast-offs, it seems more like Grady Little is reassembling his Boston team.)

hopefully history will repeat itself and "he who must not be named" will leave Lowe in too long in the playoffs and cost his team the series....

no offense at the Dodgers, or at your personally, just at "he who must not be named"

aloofman
Dec 14, 2005, 04:59 PM
hopefully history will repeat itself and "he who must not be named" will leave Lowe in too long in the playoffs and cost his team the series....

no offense at the Dodgers, or at your personally, just at "he who must not be named"

Would that make you feel better somehow for a mistake to be repeated with another team?

Sayhey
Dec 14, 2005, 05:19 PM
Good choice, solid performer. We're getting there.

(Sayhey, wish as you might that the Dodgers become a collection of Giant cast-offs, it seems more like Grady Little is reassembling his Boston team.)

I don't believe Colletti has given over those decisions to Little. He may consult him, but Colletti has waited too long to let others pull the strings. I'm kinda kidding about all the ex-Giants, but it is true GMs like players they're comfortable with.


eva, I'm sympathetic to long suffering fans, but if Grady is "he who must not be named" because he made a decision to continue with his ace, then what do you do when you have to talk about Buckner?

eva01
Dec 14, 2005, 05:20 PM
Would that make you feel better somehow for a mistake to be repeated with another team?

nah i would just find it funny. sorta cynical :P

It was Buckner's 56th birthday today :P

Also i hear that Milton Bradley is now part of the A's

wooo another team for him to disrupt

thedude110
Dec 14, 2005, 05:28 PM
I'm sympathetic to long suffering fans, but if Grady is "he who must not be named" because he made a decision to continue with his ace, then what do you do when you have to talk about Buckner?

We don't talk about Bill Buckner.

I'm reminded of a bad joke from a sports magazine I read years ago: "Ask any Red Sox fan what they think of the Jeff Bagwell for Larry Anderson trade. Then duck."

God. I can't believe you brought up Bill Buckner (http://www.icecoldest.com/images/1986%20World%20Series%20-%20Mets%20vs.%20Red%20Sox%20%5BBill%20Buckner%20Error%5D.avi) ...

Sayhey
Dec 14, 2005, 06:03 PM
Around here they used to throw darts at Bobby Richardson pictures for years after the '62 series. We KNEW he cheated in order to position himself right where McCovey hit that drive. That was the year I started watching Giants baseball, and there still isn't a Series title we can call our own. Hell, I sat through a earthquake that ended the Giants slim chance at a Series win. I watched Dusty congratulate Ortiz on the final victory of the Series only to see a great bullpen blow it. So I am sympathetic, but now that you all have a title - Buckner, Buckner, Buckner!!!:D

aloofman
Dec 14, 2005, 06:16 PM
Around here they used to throw darts at Bobby Richardson pictures for years after the '62 series. We KNEW he cheated in order to position himself right where McCovey hit that drive. That was the year I started watching Giants baseball, and there still isn't a Series title we can call our own. Hell, I sat through a earthquake that ended the Giants slim chance at a Series win. I watched Dusty congratulate Ortiz on the final victory of the Series only to see a great bullpen blow it. So I am sympathetic, but now that you all have a title - Buckner, Buckner, Buckner!!!:D

Maybe it's kind of a reverse karma from the '60 Series, the only one in which the Series MVP was from the losing team: Bobby Richardson.

Spiezio, Spiezio, Spiezio!!! :D

Sayhey
Dec 14, 2005, 06:38 PM
Maybe it's kind of a reverse karma from the '60 Series, the only one in which the Series MVP was from the losing team: Bobby Richardson.

Spiezio, Spiezio, Spiezio!!! :D

Sooo cruel!! :eek: :p

IJ Reilly
Dec 18, 2005, 11:15 AM
The Dodgers are about to sign Nomar Garciaparra to a one-season deal. He can play most of the infield positions and left field. I think we can expect him to start at first against left-hand pitchers and in left field against righties, unless they get a quality outfielder (e.g., Damon), in which case Garciaparra is the everyday first baseman and Choi gets dealt.

Garciaparra swings a very good bat, but he's been fragile. I'm sure the Dodgers would rather have him play a lot of games standing at first rather than fewer games roaming around left field.

It's beginning to look a lot like Boston... :)

Counterfit
Dec 18, 2005, 11:33 AM
It's beginning to look a lot like Boston... :)
If you guys want rings, you'll have to trade Nomah to the Cubs in July :D

Sayhey
Dec 18, 2005, 11:50 AM
The Dodgers are about to sign Nomar Garciaparra to a one-season deal. He can play most of the infield positions and left field. I think we can expect him to start at first against left-hand pitchers and in left field against righties, unless they get a quality outfielder (e.g., Damon), in which case Garciaparra is the everyday first baseman and Choi gets dealt.

Garciaparra swings a very good bat, but he's been fragile. I'm sure the Dodgers would rather have him play a lot of games standing at first rather than fewer games roaming around left field.

It's beginning to look a lot like Boston... :)

Ned Colletti is turning out to be quite the wheeler-dealer, eh IJ? ;)

OK, I admit I wanted the Giants to sign Nomar. Now that the Dodgers signed the over-the-hill, always injured, no account bum I'm sure it was a baaad move. That's what I'll keep telling myself as I watch Feliz and Niekro struggle to justify their places in the lineup. ;)

Actually the signing I'm most disappointed with is the apparent signing soon of Jerrod Washburn with Seattle. He would have fit well in the Giants rotation and that's where they have the biggest hole. That and the lineup any day Barry's not playing.

gwuMACaddict
Dec 18, 2005, 12:35 PM
espn reports that nomar and la agreed to a deal...

looking like the old red sox team out there, eh?;) :)

IJ Reilly
Dec 18, 2005, 01:13 PM
Ned Colletti is turning out to be quite the wheeler-dealer, eh IJ? ;)

No kidding. I'm pretty happy with the moves he's made so far.

Personally, I have a gut feeling that Colletti is building a team that can redeem the Dodger's reputation in the short run. Not world champion quality to be sure, but as strong contenders within a weak division.

aloofman
Dec 18, 2005, 08:11 PM
No kidding. I'm pretty happy with the moves he's made so far.

Personally, I have a gut feeling that Colletti is building a team that can redeem the Dodger's reputation in the short run. Not world champion quality to be sure, but as strong contenders within a weak division.

I like the fact that they haven't committed many years to Mueller and Nomar. Even if they totally go south, they aren't on the hook for a long time. At worst it's a repeat of the Fred McGriff experiment; at best, another Jeff Kent. And a few of their prospects need another year or two to get ready, so the timing could work out really well.

Makes me wonder what else is in store though. The infield is getting crowded. Does this mean a Choi trade is imminent? Maybe for pitching? It would not be surprising if Colletti wasn't as high on Choi as DePo was. Seems like someone has to go.

Sayhey
Dec 18, 2005, 10:00 PM
Makes me wonder what else is in store though. The infield is getting crowded. Does this mean a Choi trade is imminent? Maybe for pitching? It would not be surprising if Colletti wasn't as high on Choi as DePo was. Seems like someone has to go.

Tuesday is the non-tender date; I wouldn't be surprised if Choi was one of the casualties.

IJ Reilly
Dec 18, 2005, 10:03 PM
I like the fact that they haven't committed many years to Mueller and Nomar. Even if they totally go south, they aren't on the hook for a long time. At worst it's a repeat of the Fred McGriff experiment; at best, another Jeff Kent. And a few of their prospects need another year or two to get ready, so the timing could work out really well.

Makes me wonder what else is in store though. The infield is getting crowded. Does this mean a Choi trade is imminent? Maybe for pitching? It would not be surprising if Colletti wasn't as high on Choi as DePo was. Seems like someone has to go.

It could get crowded come mid-season, assuming Izturis comes back in good health and plays second. Then Garciaparra is a regular left fielder. Now we're looking at possibly two surplus players, Choi and Werth. It wouldn't break my heart to see Werth go -- he strikes out way too much and doesn't hit enough for power or average to make it up. Hey, maybe our Bay Area pals would be interested! Big guy, mean looking. Can hit a ton, but rarely does. How's that sound? ;)

Either way, I think Colletti is going to be running out of salary soon. By my count, he's up to $93 million, and I don't know where he gets a quality starter for less than $7 million.

Sayhey
Dec 18, 2005, 10:37 PM
It could get crowded come mid-season, assuming Izturis comes back in good health and plays second. Then Garciaparra is a regular left fielder. Now we're looking at possibly two surplus players, Choi and Werth. It wouldn't break my heart to see Werth go -- he strikes out way too much and doesn't hit enough for power or average to make it up. Hey, maybe our Bay Area pals would be interested! Big guy, mean looking. Can hit a ton, but rarely does. How's that sound? ;)

Either way, I think Colletti is going to be running out of salary soon. By my count, he's up to $93 million, and I don't know where he gets a quality starter for less than $7 million.


If Werth hit left-handed we'd take 'em in a New York minute. :p Right now I'm hoping the Giants go after Burnitz for left-handed pop off the bench. Now tell my why the Dodgers are trying to sign Lofton? Other than the fact he is another ex-Giant. ;) Bat him second and play him in center? He's a little old in the tooth isn't he (asked the man who's a fan of a team with the oldest outfield in baseball)? I'm beginning to think Izturis, Choi, and Werth's days in Blue are numbered.

Counterfit
Dec 18, 2005, 11:20 PM
I recall reading in a Sports Illustrated, that Terry Francona would have loved to bat Mueller in 2nd, but Billy liked being further down. But according to the article (http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051218&content_id=1283661&vkey=hotstove2005&fext=.jsp), he might just end up near the top? The top of the tentative Dodger lineup now is: Furcal, Mueller, J.D. Drew, Kent and Garciaparra.

IJ Reilly
Dec 19, 2005, 10:18 AM
If Werth hit left-handed we'd take 'em in a New York minute. :p Right now I'm hoping the Giants go after Burnitz for left-handed pop off the bench. Now tell my why the Dodgers are trying to sign Lofton? Other than the fact he is another ex-Giant. ;) Bat him second and play him in center? He's a little old in the tooth isn't he (asked the man who's a fan of a team with the oldest outfield in baseball)? I'm beginning to think Izturis, Choi, and Werth's days in Blue are numbered.

You want the Giants to sign Burnitz, and you're asking me about Lofton? Burnitz would have been better off staying in Colorado. Seems to me, he's got mainly warning-track power everywhere else. (Yes, I know -- nearly 300 career home runs, but why can't he seem to stay with any team longer than two years?)

The Dodgers are making a lot of one-year deals, and if they land Lofton, he'll probably be signed to another.

Yes, an outfielder is probably surplus if Lofton signs. It could be Werth, Ledee or Cruz. Werth probably has the best trade value. Choi I'm almost certain is all but gone. I'd be shocked if they didn't find a place for Izturis if he comes back healthy. I believe they simply aren't counting on it.

aloofman
Dec 20, 2005, 04:28 PM
Sayhey, starting now I will cease joking about how old the Giants players are. I no longer have a leg to stand on. :rolleyes:

IJ Reilly
Dec 20, 2005, 04:43 PM
Sayhey, starting now I will cease joking about how old the Giants players are. I no longer have a leg to stand on. :rolleyes:

Sure you do -- Garciaparra's right and Lofton's left. They've got a good pair of legs, between them. :)

Funny how the game works sometimes. I remember mid-season 2005 when the Dodgers were fielding only one player with more than two years of big-league experience.

aloofman
Dec 20, 2005, 04:57 PM
Sure you do -- Garciaparra's right and Lofton's left. They've got a good pair of legs, between them. :)

Funny how the game works sometimes. I remember mid-season 2005 when the Dodgers were fielding only one player with more than two years of big-league experience.

It's a pretty reasonable strategy to use veterans in the short-term. It all depends on a few of those much-touted prospects getting to the majors though, because if that doesn't happen, then what do we got?

IJ Reilly
Dec 20, 2005, 05:31 PM
It's a pretty reasonable strategy to use veterans in the short-term. It all depends on a few of those much-touted prospects getting to the majors though, because if that doesn't happen, then what do we got?

More 38-year-old veterans signed to one-year contracts?

Seriously, I'm a much happier Dodger fan than I expected to be only a couple of weeks ago. I was consigned to a building season.

aloofman
Dec 20, 2005, 05:45 PM
More 38-year-old veterans signed to one-year contracts?

Seriously, I'm a much happier Dodger fan than I expected to be only a couple of weeks ago. I was consigned to a building season.

I agree, and it helps that the NL West is such a weak division. If we had to worry about the Cards, you've gotta figure it would be a rebuilding year.

Koodauw
Dec 20, 2005, 10:39 PM
Looks like the Yanks added a CF to the mix. Lets face it BOSTON SUCKS, even the players know it, that why they are all leaving! (or want out.) NEW YORK -- The New York Yankees grabbed center fielder Johnny Damon away from the rival Boston Red Sox, reaching a preliminary agreement Tuesday night on a $52 million, four-year contract.

Details of the deal were still being negotiated and Damon must pass a physical, a baseball official said on condition of anonymity because negotiations were not yet final.

Damon fills a double void for the Yankees, giving them a speedy center fielder who can cover ground and a leadoff hitter to top a star-studded lineup that also includes Derek Jeter, Gary Sheffield, AL MVP Alex Rodriguez, Hideki Matsui and Jason Giambi.

Bernie Williams' defense declined significantly over the past four seasons. And while Damon's arm is not much better, he does cover a lot of ground, which is important in Yankee Stadium.

Agent Scott Boras had been seeking a seven-year contract for Damon. The offer Damon accepted was essentially the same as the deal Matsui agreed to with the Yankees last month.

gwuMACaddict
Dec 20, 2005, 10:43 PM
Wow... (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2266983)

what a sell-out...

looking forward to his reception in Fenway next year...:rolleyes:

MacNut
Dec 20, 2005, 10:48 PM
A new curse of the Bambino is brewing. Now I have something to brag about when I visit my Red Sox loving family for xmas.

gwuMACaddict
Dec 20, 2005, 10:50 PM
damon is an aging center fielder... what does that have to do with babe ruth?

MacNut
Dec 20, 2005, 10:52 PM
damon is an aging center fielder... what does that have to do with babe ruth?He may be aging but he's gonna help the Yankees more then Bernie has over the past year.

MacNut
Dec 20, 2005, 10:56 PM
The fact is that without Theo in the drivers seat the Red Sox are gonna lose more free agents and the team will be back to its old ways.

gwuMACaddict
Dec 20, 2005, 10:57 PM
no doubt about that... but it's certainly no where near "curse-worthy"

He may be aging but he's gonna help the Yankees more then Bernie has over the past year.

MacNut
Dec 20, 2005, 11:01 PM
no doubt about that... but it's certainly no where near "curse-worthy"Some could argue that loosing Pedro could have been the start to a new curse and if a few more star players leave it could end up biting them in the butt in a few years. So the bigger curse for the Red Sox could be not getting Theo back for another 3 years.

Warbrain
Dec 20, 2005, 11:02 PM
Another man sells his soul to the Yankees. What a surprise. And the Yankees think that they can buy a championship.

I look forward to the White Sox beating the Yankees again this coming season.

gwuMACaddict
Dec 20, 2005, 11:04 PM
i get really tired of hearing about curses...

Koodauw
Dec 20, 2005, 11:38 PM
i get really tired of hearing about curses...
I don't Here is to another 86 years of the Bosux!

IJ Reilly
Dec 21, 2005, 04:20 AM
i get really tired of hearing about curses...

I get tired of hearing fans in Boston and New York whining about players who aren't "loyal" enough to their teams.

BTW, now I can see why the Dodgers didn't end up signing Damon -- he was asking for too much money and too many years for a guy his age.

thedude110
Dec 21, 2005, 07:20 AM
I get tired of hearing fans in Boston and New York whining about players who aren't "loyal" enough to their teams.


There's real, day to day enmity that runs beneath the Red Sox/Yankees rivalry. And it's more kvetching than whining. :p

Damon is a punk. A true, first class punk. May all his hair fall out and may he become an even greater gimp.

I normally don't wish individuals ill will. But I'm pissed off right now. And my heat doesn't work. And it's freaking eleven degrees.

Koodauw
Dec 21, 2005, 10:28 AM
Yes Hopefully his hair does fall out. Or at least George makes him get it cut. Looks terrible. ( I think its the reason his wife left him.)

Sayhey
Dec 21, 2005, 10:56 AM
There's real, day to day enmity that runs beneath the Red Sox/Yankees rivalry. And it's more kvetching than whining. :p

Damon is a punk. A true, first class punk. May all his hair fall out and may he become an even greater gimp.

I normally don't wish individuals ill will. But I'm pissed off right now. And my heat doesn't work. And it's freaking eleven degrees.

And you think there isn't a rivalry between Giants/Dodgers? Just because you have a rivalry that finally means competition within your division, doesn't mean others haven't had that for many years now.

More to the point, if Damon's signing pisses Sox fans off so much, why not get mad at the folks responsible - Boston management? Players are supposed to be "loyal" when teams refuse to pay them what the market will bear for the short time their careers last? When was the last time you heard of a team overpaying a veteran player as a "reward" for years of service? Not friggin' likely. Yet we hear quite often of players willing to give "home" team discounts in order to stay with a franchise. The amazing thing is that given the "disloyalty" of owners to their players that there are any players that take the fan's wishes into their decision of where to sign at all. If we are to discuss "loyalties," let's start with the folks who run the game.

IJ Reilly
Dec 21, 2005, 11:13 AM
There's real, day to day enmity that runs beneath the Red Sox/Yankees rivalry. And it's more kvetching than whining. :p

Kvetching sounds a lot like whining if you squint your eyes a little.

Really, Sox fans are so incredibly cranky. The Sox fired a winning manager because he made one bad decision. Well that's fine -- we're happy to have him here in LA even if he isn't friggin' perfect.

And Yankee fans -- don't get me started on them. I grew up in the NYC area, a Mets fan if only because Yankee fans were totally insufferable. We Mets fans took what was coming to us. One year, ninth place, a couple of years later, a World Championship. Whatever, it was all good. But Yankee fans sniveled if the bums finished second, like somehow the earth had slipped off its axis.

From out here, the controversy over the Damon signing looks like the stuff of pure baseball comedy. What can I say? Yankee and Sox fans deserve each other! :)

MacNut
Dec 21, 2005, 04:56 PM
And you think there isn't a rivalry between Giants/Dodgers? Just because you have a rivalry that finally means competition within your division, doesn't mean others haven't had that for many years now.Nothing compares to the rivalry that the Yankees and Red Sox have, Actually its more a hatred then a rivalry to be honest. What the Giants and Dodgers had was more of a New York thing then it is now out west. Back then those teams were fighting hard in pennet races as lately they have both been a joke.

IJ Reilly
Dec 21, 2005, 06:30 PM
Nothing compares to the rivalry that the Yankees and Red Sox have, Actually its more a hatred then a rivalry to be honest. What the Giants and Dodgers had was more of a New York thing then it is now out west. Back then those teams were fighting hard in pennet races as lately they have both been a joke.

I think those are supposed to be fightin' words. Yes, the Dodgers fell apart last year, but the year before that they were the NL West champs. No joke.

Counterfit
Dec 21, 2005, 06:50 PM
BTW, now I can see why the Dodgers didn't end up signing Damon -- he was asking for too much money and too many years for a guy his age.
Kinda like the Sox didn't want to give Pedro as much as he was asking for, given his age and condition. Hey, maybe we can get a center fielder that has an arm now ;) Honestly, I'm kinda surprised the Mets didn't make a go. Perhaps they learned from last off-season? :D

macbaseball
Dec 21, 2005, 09:55 PM
I'm in shock. The Giants have traded Alfonzo straight across for Steve Finley. Although Finley had a down year, he is still much better than Alfonzo. Alfonzo had driven me crazy ever since he got that big deal three years ago...

See Here (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2268054)

Sayhey
Dec 21, 2005, 10:04 PM
I'm in shock. The Giants have traded Alfonzo straight across for Steve Finley. Although Finley had a down year, he is still much better than Alfonzo. Alfonzo had driven me crazy ever since he got that big deal three years ago...

See Here (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2268054)

The Angels must be in need of injury prone third basemen with little range and no power. Alfonzo still can hit a little and he is good with the glove at what he gets to, but for 6+ million a year?

I'm looking forward to Moises' birthday this summer when we can have an all 40 year-old outfield. The rest of the division will be jealous as all hell. ;)

Kwyjibo
Dec 21, 2005, 10:05 PM
Kinda like the Sox didn't want to give Pedro as much as he was asking for, given his age and condition. Hey, maybe we can get a center fielder that has an arm now ;) Honestly, I'm kinda surprised the Mets didn't make a go. Perhaps they learned from last off-season? :D

Pedro had a great year and the Mets have had two relatively great off seasons, they have beltran in center .... Pedro posted 15 wins, sold plenty of tickets and had an era below 3 ... He's still a stud I thought he was past his prime way back when but he gets it done.

Chubypig
Dec 21, 2005, 10:16 PM
Another man sells his soul to the Yankees. What a surprise. And the Yankees think that they can buy a championship.

These types of comments bug me, because the point of free agency and trades, etc. is to improve your team. Every team is trying to buy a championship! Because if they're not buying it, then they're not paying their players. In which case, they must have one hell of a set of those motivational tapes...:p

Sayhey
Dec 21, 2005, 10:23 PM
Nothing compares to the rivalry that the Yankees and Red Sox have, Actually its more a hatred then a rivalry to be honest. What the Giants and Dodgers had was more of a New York thing then it is now out west. Back then those teams were fighting hard in pennet races as lately they have both been a joke.

This is more of a function of the New York "center-of-the-universe" thinking that spills over into sports than any real gage of baseball fans true feelings. Not that we San Franciscans cannot fall into the same stupid trap - just ask folks from Oakland and San Jose. It's just New Yorkers are better at it than almost any other citizen of the world's great cities. You've got to stop taking the words of "New York, New York" quite so literally. ;)

If you haven't been to a Giants/Dodgers game in the last week of the season with the division on the line - you don't know what rivalry is. These two teams can be competing for last place and it still gets nasty. Beating the other team is almost more important than winning the pennant. At least that's the feeling from up north. IJ and aloofman can speak for fans of the Boys in Blue.

MacNut
Dec 21, 2005, 11:16 PM
Im saying that the Dodgers Giants rivalry started in NY and that is when is was at its biggest point.

It looks like the Yankees have not only Damon but Bernie back for another year.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2268142

Bernie Williams is staying with the New York Yankees, agreeing Wednesday to a $1.5 million, one-year contract that allows him to earn an additional $1.5 million in performance bonuses.

Koodauw
Dec 22, 2005, 12:27 AM
I think those are supposed to be fightin' words. Yes, the Dodgers fell apart last year, but the year before that they were the NL West champs. No joke.

They were NL west Champs, but still a joke :p

Looks the Yankees signed Bernie to a 1yr deal as well. Im glad to see this happen. I think he still has some magic left in him.

thedude110
Dec 22, 2005, 07:49 AM
Looks the Yankees signed Bernie to a 1yr deal as well. Im glad to see this happen. I think he still has some magic left in him.

This is good news for Red Sox fans! :D

IJ Reilly
Dec 22, 2005, 10:18 AM
If you haven't been to a Giants/Dodgers game in the last week of the season with the division on the line - you don't know what rivalry is. These two teams can be competing for last place and it still gets nasty. Beating the other team is almost more important than winning the pennant. At least that's the feeling from up north. IJ and aloofman can speak for fans of the Boys in Blue.

I think Giants fans take it somewhat more seriously than Dodger fans. This is probably a function of the state's north-south rivalry. Northern Californians like to look down on everything Southern California, but Southern Californians basically don't give two hoots what Northern Californians think. IIRC, it was you who once told me to never wear my Dodger cap at a Giants home game, that it might be dangerous. Conspicuous Giant fans at Dodger Stadium may get heckled if they're loud, but usually in a good-natured way.

Still tickets for San Francisco at LA are always in high demand. Even meaningless SF-LA games are fun. It's a real, live rivalry, not an extension of the New York days.

aloofman
Dec 22, 2005, 10:45 AM
I think Giants fans take it somewhat more seriously than Dodger fans. This is probably a function of the state's north-south rivalry. Northern Californians like to look down on everything Southern California, but Southern Californians basically don't give two hoots what Northern Californians think. IIRC, it was you who once told me to never wear my Dodger cap at a Giants home game, that it might be dangerous.

This is something that my Nocal friends had trouble understanding at first. "You mean you don't hate us back?" San Francisco, for example, has a weird phobia about Los Angeles that borders on an inferiority complex, even though they know they live in a great city and everyone else knows too.

A couple years ago the city planted palm trees on the Embarcadero and some people were upset that it was an LA thing. You can't make up some of this stuff. My parents have friends in the Bay Area that refuse to visit here. I used to joke that Nocals breed their children to hate.

One of my proudest moments was seven or eight years ago when I took two Nocal friends to Dodger Stadium for a game. (This just happened to be the same day that Mike Piazza was traded to the Marlins.) At one point one turned to the other and said, "The Giants deserve a stadium this nice." Coming from him, it meant a lot. And now, of course, the Giants have one.


Conspicuous Giant fans at Dodger Stadium may get heckled if they're loud, but usually in a good-natured way.


This is generally true. You rarely hear about Dodger fans throwing batteries at players on the field or anything. Although there was a Giant fan a few years ago that got killed at the Ravine.

IJ Reilly
Dec 22, 2005, 11:01 AM
This is generally true. You rarely hear about Dodger fans throwing batteries at players on the field or anything. Although there was a Giant fan a few years ago that got killed at the Ravine.

Wasn't that last season? An altercation in the parking lot, IIRC. In the end I never heard whether it had anything to do with team rivalries.

I'd forgotten about the Palm Tree Incident. That was quite hilarious, but part-and-parcel of San Francisco's wacky cultural politics. Keep it up guys, you're slaying us down here! ;)

Silencio
Dec 22, 2005, 11:50 AM
More good news for Giants fans: the grossly disappointing and overpaid Edgardo Alfonzo has been foisted upon the Angels in exchange for Steve Finley, who should've been a Giants years and years ago.

You'd think this would cause a logjam in the outfield now, but there should be plenty of playing time available for the top four guys (Bonds, Alou, Finley, and Randy Winn). Winn is the youngest guy by far and really needs to start: he was a monster in his half-season with the Giants last year. The other three guys will need plenty of rest between them -- I'd be surprised if either Bonds or Alou played over 120 games.

An upgrade at 1B would be nice, but there's probably not many affordable options on the market anymore. A Neikro/Sweeney platoon is pretty uninspiring.

Sayhey
Dec 22, 2005, 12:14 PM
I'd forgotten about the Palm Tree Incident. That was quite hilarious, but part-and-parcel of San Francisco's wacky cultural politics. Keep it up guys, you're slaying us down here! ;)

We aim to please. :)

What everyone else sees as wacky, we see as cutting edge! ;)

btw, I hate the palm trees too. Evil Socal plants infesting our environment :eek: ;)

Now, how many days to when pitchers and catchers report?

aloofman
Dec 22, 2005, 12:20 PM
Now, how many days to when pitchers and catchers report?

Too many.

Sayhey
Dec 22, 2005, 01:21 PM
An upgrade at 1B would be nice, but there's probably not many affordable options on the market anymore. A Neikro/Sweeney platoon is pretty uninspiring.

To say the least. Niekro's numbers after the break were in free fall. Sweeney is a good bench player but is not starting material. I do like the addition of Finley. He gives both much more power to the club than Alfonzo and the needed defensive back up at all the outfield positions. Now they just need a backup catcher, a good utility infielder, and a new starting pitcher.

Silencio
Dec 22, 2005, 02:09 PM
To say the least. Niekro's numbers after the break were in free fall. Sweeney is a good bench player but is not starting material. I do like the addition of Finley. He gives both much more power to the club than Alfonzo and the needed defensive back up at all the outfield positions. Now they just need a backup catcher, a good utility infielder, and a new starting pitcher.

Agree with all the needs, but I think another starting pitcher is the least pressing need. I think either Hennessey or Correia has the potential to step up and be a consistent fifth starter, at the very least. This is also assuming that Matt Cain doesn't have a sophomore slump, of course, but he looks like the most promising Giants starting prospect to come along in a while. I want to see the Giants commit to developing a good young pitcher for a change instead of just dealing them off willy-nilly for another old vet.

A Giants fan sporting a Bertrand Russell quote -- I like your style! :)

goodtimes5
Dec 22, 2005, 02:21 PM
Agree with all the needs, but I think another starting pitcher is the least pressing need. I think either Hennessey or Correia has the potential to step up and be a consistent fifth starter, at the very least. This is also assuming that Matt Cain doesn't have a sophomore slump, of course, but he looks like the most promising Giants starting prospect to come along in a while. I want to see the Giants commit to developing a good young pitcher for a change instead of just dealing them off willy-nilly for another old vet.

A Giants fan sporting a Bertrand Russell quote -- I like your style! :)

The day the Giants trade Matt Cain is the day hell freezes over.

Silencio
Dec 22, 2005, 03:07 PM
The day the Giants trade Matt Cain is the day hell freezes over.

Jerome Williams and Jesse Foppert were once considered untouchables, too, and they were sent packing just last year.

By and large, Brian Sabean has done a good job trading away the Giants' young pitching prospects (the Jason Schmidt deal with the Pirates was highway robbery). A few of his "misses" are pretty glaring, though: giving up Joe Nathan probably cost the Giants a deep playoff run in 2004, nothing useful came out of the Jerome Williams trade, and the 2003 Giants would have been much better served by Russ Ortiz instead of Damian Moss/Sir Sidney Ponson.

IJ Reilly
Dec 22, 2005, 03:19 PM
Dodgers just signed Brett Tomko for two years. Be still my heart.

And much to my surprise, they offered Choi a one year contract. I still think he's trade bait, if not now then in July.

aloofman
Dec 22, 2005, 03:28 PM
I do like the addition of Finley. He gives both much more power to the club than Alfonzo and the needed defensive back up at all the outfield positions.

This is assuming that he gets his swing back, of course. His defense is still solid and everyone agrees that he's in tremendous shape for his age. If they get the 2004 Steve Finley, then they're golden because carried the lineup at times that year. And of course Giants fans know what he's capable of.

But he's also 40 years old and pushing the limits of how productive an outfielder can be at that age. People thought he was just about done when he want to the D'backs, but he kept on playing well. Like with Bonds, eventually the predictions of his permanent decline will turn out to be true. Both Bonds and Finley are strongly defying traditional career paths, so I think they're at a career transition right now.

I think it's still a good trade for both teams though. Both players were giving their teams little production at a position that was easily filled by others, and both teams got capable backups that could turn things around and really help the team. If both players suck again, each team will just have a $7 million benchwarmer, which is what they had already.

Koodauw
Dec 27, 2005, 07:41 PM
Looks like the BoSux want Snow to play first base.

MacNut
Dec 27, 2005, 11:16 PM
Looks like the Blue Jays are building a contender up north.

ORONTO -- Troy Glaus got a look at the rebuilt Toronto Blue Jays and waived his right to block a trade up north.

The Arizona Diamondbacks dealt the power-hitting Glaus and top minor-league shortstop prospect Sergio Santos to the Blue Jays on Tuesday for Gold Glove second baseman Orlando Hudson and pitcher Miguel Batista.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2272508

Sayhey
Jan 14, 2006, 07:03 PM
Oh, Boy, did I have to dig to find this thread. I guess there is not much baseball news to speak of this month.

Anyway, maybe IJ or aloofman can explain this trade for me. Have the Dodgers decided Gagne isn't going to make it back for the season or is this a move for the following season because Gagne has decided to go for free agency? And they gave up on Jackson? Well, I guess you have to give something to get something.

If both Gagne and Baez are healthy, you guys have one heck of a bullpen.

LA gets Baez from Rays for prospects
Dodgers shore up relief corps with former All-Stars
By Ken Gurnick / MLB.com

LOS ANGELES -- With Eric Gagne returning from elbow surgery and eligible for free agency at the end of 2006, the Dodgers Saturday shored up their bullpen for the near-term (and maybe longer) by acquiring All-Star closer Danys Baez and former All-Star middle reliever Lance Carter from the Tampa Bay Devil Rays for young pitchers Edwin Jackson and Chuck Tiffany.
The 28-year-old Baez, a Cuban-born right-hander, saved 41 games for Tampa Bay in 2005, fifth in the American League, and has 102 saves in four seasons. He started his career with Cleveland, was released after the 2003 season and signed with Tampa Bay.

Baez is under contract for 2006 with a $4 million salary and is eligible for free agency after the 2006 season. The Dodgers are paying Gagne $10 million this year and the club has a 2007 option for $12 million, but Gagne can void the option, receive a $1 million buyout and also declare free agency.

The 31-year-old Carter, an All-Star in 2003, threw 57 innings in 39 games with a 4.90 ERA in 2005. He is expected to pick up some of the innings lost by the departures of Duaner Sanchez and Giovanni Carrara. He underwent Tommy John elbow reconstruction twice, in 1996 and 2000.

The 22-year-old Jackson, once the top prospect in the Dodgers farm system, has been a disappointment the past two seasons, plagued by a sore forearm in 2004 and continued inconsistency in 2005.

Tiffany, 22 later this month, is the first top prospect general manager Ned Colletti has traded during his extreme makeover of the Dodgers' roster. Tiffany, a left-hander, was taken in the second round of the 2003 draft. But some in the organization believe he had been passed by 20-year-old left-hander Scott Elbert, taken in the first round of the 2004 draft.mlb.com (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060114&content_id=1295784&vkey=hotstove2005&fext=.jsp)

IJ Reilly
Jan 15, 2006, 12:58 AM
Oh, Boy, did I have to dig to find this thread. I guess there is not much baseball news to speak of this month.

Anyway, maybe IJ or aloofman can explain this trade for me. Have the Dodgers decided Gagne isn't going to make it back for the season or is this a move for the following season because Gagne has decided to go for free agency? And they gave up on Jackson? Well, I guess you have to give something to get something.

If both Gagne and Baez are healthy, you guys have one heck of a bullpen.

mlb.com (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060114&content_id=1295784&vkey=hotstove2005&fext=.jsp)

Thanks for pointing this one out. I hadn't heard about it yet.

I don't think anyone can predict Gagne's intentions after the '06 season, if only because he has to come back from the surgery before anyone can assess his value. My guess is, the main purpose of this trade is to remove Brazoban from the setup role, or worse yet, from being pressed into closing, where he was shockingly ineffective for the better part of last season. I'll be interested to see how Brazoban pitches when he's not in such a pressure position, and this may be management's thinking as well.

I'm sorry to see the Dodgers give up on Edwin Jackson, but by the same token he can only go so far on the strength of his first two games in the majors all those years ago now. We've seen so little of that brilliance since then.

But Baez and Gagne -- what an eight-nine punch that could be!

itgoesbuzz
Jan 15, 2006, 01:33 AM
but what about the tigers, i dunno if anyone has mentioned them, (just stumbled upon this thread and did not read any of it) adding rogers is shaky and jones i believe is an alright pickup but all we want here in detriot is an above .500 season.

Sayhey
Jan 15, 2006, 01:53 AM
Thanks for pointing this one out. I hadn't heard about it yet.

I don't think anyone can predict Gagne's intentions after the '06 season, if only because he has to come back from the surgery before anyone can assess his value. My guess is, the main purpose of this trade is to remove Brazoban from the setup role, or worse yet, from being pressed into closing, where he was shockingly ineffective for the better part of last season. I'll be interested to see how Brazoban pitches when he's not in such a pressure position, and this may be management's thinking as well.

I'm sorry to see the Dodgers give up on Edwin Jackson, but by the same token he can only go so far on the strength of his first two games in the majors all those years ago now. We've seen so little of that brilliance since then.

But Baez and Gagne -- what an eight-nine punch that could be!

Colletti has remade the Dodgers in just about one month into the odds on favorite in the Western Division. I had hoped with the Seo trade that the Bullpen was going to suffer, but with this trade I think the bums are back on top with the league's best (assuming Gagne is healthy.) I don't know if the Dodgers can sign both Gagne and Baez at the end of the season, but even if it is for only one year they're a potent 1-2 punch. I don't think you'll find Lance Carter (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/scouting?statsId=6364) a problem either. On the pitching side, you guys are only missing depth in left handed relief. Kuo and who else?

With the rest of the team, I'm looking at left field as the only real weak link among the starters. Werth may still work out, but Cruz defines the phrase "streaky hitter" with most of those streaks in the 0 fer -- category. It wouldn't surprise me if Colletti adds some help there before the season begins.

Meanwhile, I'm sitting up here steaming that the Giants haven't done much of anything since the signing of Matt Morris. Barry had better be real healthy.

Kwyjibo
Jan 15, 2006, 11:38 AM
I think the dodgers made a very smart move ...


If you think about it ... its Gagne insurance policy, althought i think he'll be back for the season. So you keep baez for the first half of the season ... at the ASB you figure out which contender needs a closer and who has somebody you want ... you can trade a reliable closer (baez) to fill just about any position you need with an above average player ... great move by the dodgers.

thedude110
Jan 15, 2006, 12:01 PM
but what about the tigers, i dunno if anyone has mentioned them, (just stumbled upon this thread and did not read any of it) adding rogers is shaky and jones i believe is an alright pickup but all we want here in detriot is an above .500 season.

I think the Tigers will be better this year, if only because Nook Logan is a year older and you'll have the benefits of Placido Polanco for the whole season. I think Rogers is a fine pickup and will serve as a sound number 3 starter behind Bonderman and Robertson, and I think if Magglio is healthy, the first five bats in your lineup could make some noise:

Logan
Polanco
IRod
Ordonez
D. Young

Assuming a decent season from Carlos Guillen and a breakout year from Carlos Pena, and considering you've got a strong bullpen with German, Jones and Percival, I think the Tigers could be wildcard contenders if everything breaks right.

That said, I'm a Red Sox fan, and I can't tell you how upset people in Boston would be if they had the Tiger's roster! From a distance though, .500 seems achievable.

Where have all the Sox fans gone? Abandoned this thread to the Giants/Dodgers fans? For shame. Just 'cause we don't have anyone who can play shorstop OR centerfield doesn't mean we shouldn't be keeping ourselves warm by the hot stove ... :)

IJ Reilly
Jan 15, 2006, 07:07 PM
Colletti has remade the Dodgers in just about one month into the odds on favorite in the Western Division. I had hoped with the Seo trade that the Bullpen was going to suffer, but with this trade I think the bums are back on top with the league's best (assuming Gagne is healthy.) I don't know if the Dodgers can sign both Gagne and Baez at the end of the season, but even if it is for only one year they're a potent 1-2 punch. I don't think you'll find Lance Carter (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/scouting?statsId=6364) a problem either. On the pitching side, you guys are only missing depth in left handed relief. Kuo and who else?

Hamulack, but he'll have a lot to prove. And I expected to get Kelly Wunsch back, but he's not listed on the 40-man roster right at the moment, and I don't know anything else about his status.

I didn't want to say it, but since you have already -- suddenly the Dodgers look like the team to beat in the NL West. Colletti was quoted in the paper this morning saying that he's impatient -- that he wants to win this year. Did that ever bring a smile to this weary Dodger fan's face. It's been a long time since I've heard a Dodger GM say anything like that. :)

With the rest of the team, I'm looking at left field as the only real weak link among the starters. Werth may still work out, but Cruz defines the phrase "streaky hitter" with most of those streaks in the 0 fer -- category. It wouldn't surprise me if Colletti adds some help there before the season begins.

Meanwhile, I'm sitting up here steaming that the Giants haven't done much of anything since the signing of Matt Morris. Barry had better be real healthy.

Left field is a bit of a question mark, but not such a huge one. The Dodgers have been satisfied to start Werth out there for years now. I see him (and Cruz) as adequate place-holders until someone better comes along. Personally, I'd be surprised if we saw another deal between now and Spring training. Colletti has been cautious about trading prospects and they've spent a ton already.

As for Barry -- what can I say? I feel for you. ;)

aloofman
Jan 17, 2006, 11:12 AM
Thanks for pointing this one out. I hadn't heard about it yet.

I don't think anyone can predict Gagne's intentions after the '06 season, if only because he has to come back from the surgery before anyone can assess his value. My guess is, the main purpose of this trade is to remove Brazoban from the setup role, or worse yet, from being pressed into closing, where he was shockingly ineffective for the better part of last season. I'll be interested to see how Brazoban pitches when he's not in such a pressure position, and this may be management's thinking as well.

I'm sorry to see the Dodgers give up on Edwin Jackson, but by the same token he can only go so far on the strength of his first two games in the majors all those years ago now. We've seen so little of that brilliance since then.

But Baez and Gagne -- what an eight-nine punch that could be!

I agree that the intention is probably to sign Gagne, assuming he's healthy. Unless he's hurt or becomes totally ineffective, it would be a very unpopular move to let Gagne leave. He's easily the most popular Dodger, especially with all the recent player turnover.

Honestly, I don't mind letting Edwin Jackson go. I've always thought he was overrated. Except for that miraculous first start against Randy Johnson a few years ago, he hasn't been that impressive. His age makes that understandable, but I don't expect him to be a strong starter, and his trade value was still fairly high as prospects go.

Koodauw
Jan 18, 2006, 07:13 PM
can we go back to talking about Johnny Damon please? :p

thedude110
Jan 20, 2006, 10:40 PM
Sox fans -- Theo's back! (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AhRWUJT0QZqgFBSvrkWeGVM5nYcB?slug=ap-redsox-epsteinreturns&prov=ap&type=lgns) Sort of! In an entirely obscure way!

Two jokes from WEEI today:

"With Theo's return, Larry Lucchino will be promoted to 'Emperor of All He Can Survey.'"

"Hey. Theo. Welcome back. Now grab a glove and go play CF."

Of course, signing Willie Harris (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/players/6798/) may solve all of their problems ... :rolleyes:

Koodauw
Jan 20, 2006, 11:23 PM
Just in time to catch Damon play in pinstripes!

Anyways if your a sox fan, you have to be happy about this, he really is very good. On the downside its to bad it took this long for him and the Sox to work this out, as a good part of the off season has passed by. (not that im complaining.)

MacNut
Jan 21, 2006, 12:51 AM
Just in time to catch Damon play in pinstripes!

Anyways if your a sox fan, you have to be happy about this, he really is very good. On the downside its to bad it took this long for him and the Sox to work this out, as a good part of the off season has passed by. (not that im complaining.)The problem is that he's not the official GM unless he's gonna run the team from the back seat of the bandwagon. The problem with the Red Sox is that nobody is truly in charge and until someone is given total control over day to day operations it will be a long season.

Counterfit
Jan 21, 2006, 03:45 AM
Please, we all know Theo gave his OK for all the moves they made so far.
Also, the Bruins beat the Flyers last night. :D

Also, seems a font I installed (I think it's Megadeth...) seems to have taken over the Java portion of the MLB sites :eek:

thedude110
Jan 21, 2006, 12:16 PM
Please, we all know Theo gave his OK for all the moves they made so far.


WEEI had it on "good sources" (God knows what that means) that Theo was "strongly opposed" to the Beckett deal.

Counterfit
Jan 22, 2006, 02:34 AM
Well, time will tell if his opposition was well-founded.
Remind me, who was it that brought Mantei in?

xsedrinam
Oct 30, 2006, 05:49 PM
That'll help those who will forever think STL's win was a crime.

On another note, the Cards have some off season deals and resigning of free agents to consider. S.I.'s Nate Silver thinks picking up Jim Edmond's (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/10/30/extramustard.cardinals/index.html) option for $10M is a good investment, arguing that the alternative buying out the option at $3M makes it a $7M dollar decision.

Using that formula is still a gamble imo. Does Edmonds have another year or two of effectiveness in him? Injury prone, his range at Center Field diminishing, his last two years' stats taking him below .500 slugging, and his tendency to strike out are negatives at his age and time. With Pujols, Rolen and Carpenter tucked away with signed contracts below market value, maybe Jocketty will go ahead with paying Edmonds feeling he owes him and/or the fans something and that Edmonds may help the franchise next year. But I'm wondering if it isn't time to tap the Memphis AAA club or get some younger blood to replace Edmonds?

I suspect the Dodgers could be interested in Edmonds if he's allowed to shop clubs and he's willing to take a one year signing. The Dodgers don't have an incumbent in CF or anybody coming up, and are in need of power. They've also got an almost ideal late-inning defensive substitute in Jason Repko.

Looks like we're getting warmed up for the hot stove thread. :)
Thought I'd put this and other items on the right burner. :)

MacNut
Oct 30, 2006, 05:56 PM
hehe, are we gonna keep this one going or start a new one. as another stove is burning.:o

skunk
Oct 30, 2006, 05:57 PM
Wtf are you all talking about? I thought this was about kitchen appliances. :confused:

thedude110
Oct 30, 2006, 06:03 PM
Would much prefer a new thread, myself.

Maybe I'm too caught up in the idea of history.

Besides, is it really hot stove time yet? I think we're still in season, even if the season is vaguely over.

IJ Reilly
Oct 30, 2006, 06:05 PM
Wtf are you all talking about? I thought this was about kitchen appliances. :confused:

No, that's next door. This is about baseball.

IJ Reilly
Oct 30, 2006, 06:07 PM
Would much prefer a new thread, myself.

Maybe I'm too caught up in the idea of history.

Besides, is it really hot stove time yet? I think we're still in season, even if the season is vaguely over.

Technically no, but with the changes in the new contract, free agents can declare early with fewer restrictions, so deals could be made at any time.

MacNut
Oct 30, 2006, 06:09 PM
Well if we want a new one...MLB Hot Stove Thread 07 (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=2999833#post2999833)