Do people really like Windows? [Archive]

Fender2112

Jan 20, 2003, 01:14 PM

I've been an Apple user since right after the TSR-80 was a big hit and I never really had any desire to use MS Windows. I use Windows now at my office out of necessity, not by choice. I have a brother-inlaw who used to be a Mac user and switched to Windows because of the software he uses at work (3D Sudio Max). We often have discussions about Mac vs Windows, which got me thinking...Why do people use Windows and do they really like it?

We in the Mac community often praise Apple for OS X and the Mac and the way everything works together. But I've never heard anyone say that about Windows. Most people seem to use Windows because they have to. It is usuallay because the company has dumped a large chunk of money into PC equipment because it's less expensive. The company is then stuck with this investment that will only run Windows.

I often read or hear about people who like to stay on the cutting edge, like gamers, who keep up with the latest video cards, games, or whatever. They praise the addons, and the software, not Windows.

My point is, I don't think people really like Windows. They tolerate it. Big Companies say "We are using PC's because they are cheaper". As a result, people use Windows because they have to, not because they want to.

Enough about you lets talk about me!

ShaolinMiddleFinger

Jan 20, 2003, 01:28 PM

What I don't really understand is that they (people who normally use Windows) are alright with it's little glitches here and there.

Example given: A friend of mine made me a pc....worked great for a month....then at times it wouldn't want to shutdown unless if I pulled the plug....my friends response to that example "Oh, that's just Windows, it happens all the time"

Another example: The mouse on my pc (yes, I cleaned it!) stops responding at times....same response, "Oh, that's just Windows"

Nipsy

Jan 20, 2003, 01:41 PM

One thing is certain....people don't get wait in line at midnight excited over Windows.

There is nothing stellar about Windows. It is so mediocre that the world accepts it, joylessly.

alex_ant

Jan 20, 2003, 01:42 PM

Starting with Windows 2000, Windows has improved dramatically. There are still things I don't like about it (such as the filesystem hierarchy, the poorly-executed registry concept, the idea of drive letters, the UI thoughtlessness, the Start menu, the way each app has its own menu bar, the lack of a useful command line), but I'd imagine a lot of people, especially those who don't know what they're missing, can live with all of that. I'd imagine that to people who have upgraded from flaky 95 or 98 (or god forbid Me) installs, XP is worlds better. And it will continue to improve as long as Mac OS X gives it competition. Windows is the second best desktop OS. Argue about how far behind OS X it is all you like, but it's still ahead of Linux. Not that that says much, I guess.

The cheapest Mac is $800, and it's years obsolete. A fully-functional comparable PC costing less than half that is fully capable of dramatically outperforming it. Macs are relatively expensive. Some people aren't rich. Others just don't want to spend a lot of money on a computer. I believe price is the #1 gripe about Macs. Most just don't care about what their computer's OS is as long as they know how to use it, it's compatible, and it works. Windows has gotten a lot better at being compatible and working. It still has its larger-than-acceptable share of annoyances and glitches, but to most people, I'd say the little mouse glitches and power-off glitches are not justification to spend hundreds more on an unfamiliar Mac.

phgreer

Jan 20, 2003, 01:48 PM

Well when I first considered purchasing my first computer I really wanted and considered a Mac but I bought a Windows machine for serveral reasons;

1.) The price was way out of my budget at the time.

2.) They didn't have that many places or ways to get a Mac in my town at the time

3.) That Pepsi dude was in charge

4.) there was a lot more software choices at the time.

5.) A lot more job opportinities for PC experience

However when Steve Jobs came back and started turning things around I got excited especially with OSX since I had tried out Linux on my old Windows machine. I used a Mac during my college days in the late 80's and always wanted a Mac first so last year I finally bought an iBook as the protable solution for our household. We also use a Dell 8200 running XP Pro and I'm still satisfied with that as well. I have already invested a lot of money in Windows only programs so I will be keeping the PC for a good long time.

Now, if more software was compatible with the mac or they gave really good discounts to those switching then I might be a total switcher sooner down the road. It's just too much of a price to pay now to abandon Windows. I really don't have any problems with my PC with crashing or other stuff. I'm a satisfied Windows user but I treasure the Mac.

maxvamp

Jan 20, 2003, 02:09 PM

Usually, it is because they have never tried any other operating system, even other PC OSs.

I am a switcher ( two years ago), and recently had to build a new PC for a couple of small apps that have yet to make it to the Mac. I am hating it!! Productivity on a PC drops big time due to the number of reboots required for this, that, or the other, as well as many apps that just don't work quite like advertised.

Try some PC video apps, and you will see what I mean.

Max.

Fender2112

Jan 20, 2003, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by phgreer
Now, if more software was compatible with the mac or they gave really good discounts to those switching then I might be a total switcher sooner down the road. It's just too much of a price to pay now to abandon Windows. I really don't have any problems with my PC with crashing or other stuff. I'm a satisfied Windows user but I treasure the Mac.

This is pretty much what I was try to get at. People get suckered into Windows, then realize the downfall, but can't switch because it will cost too much. Therefore they continue to tolerate all the annoying things about Windows. Everyone is so concerned about the upfront cost that they don't think about the long term experience.

AWishForNoOne

Jan 20, 2003, 03:07 PM

a lot of people who use windows say that they like it out of ignorance. people who have never tried Apple use the common arguments such as slower processors but they've never actually tried one. people live with windows glitches out of "neccesity." they feel like they have to deal with it because they have no other choice in terms of operating systems. this causes m$ to have no need to fix the bugs because no one cares to much about them. windows users are like zombies. they have no excitement for their computers and use them out of neccesity. mac users are like faithful followers. we choose our computers out of sheer joy. we stay home sick from work and school to watch macworlds. windows users have nothing comparable to the expirience we get.

bennetsaysargh

Jan 20, 2003, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by AWishForNoOne
mac users are like faithful followers. we choose our computers out of sheer joy. we stay home sick from work and school to watch macworlds. windows users have nothing comparable to the expirience we get.

So true it isn't even funny

eyeluvmyimac

Jan 20, 2003, 04:04 PM

Since purchasing my wonderful iMac, I've converted roughly half my friends and family to macs. But the other half (who have never used my iMac) will stand by their pathetic argument to the death -- "I can never get macs to work"

WHAT IS THAT!?!?!

How come the first iMac holds the world record for shortest instruction manual.

And ignoring the sheer numbers of facts proving their argument false, just ugh! I can't even express how I feel about this, a mac is NOT hard to use! These people probably never used OSX, in fact, they probably never used a mac period!

AHHH!

And then comes the rest of my family that hasn't switched. Namely, my dad. He's stuck in the windows world and hates it but can't get out. He has spent too much money on audio software that he doesn't want to leave and rebuy everything. Right now, his current windows problem is that it won't startup. He needs to turn it on, let it stutter around, turn it off, turn it BACK on, and maybe it will work.

Sigh...I hate windows.

macktheknife

Jan 20, 2003, 04:09 PM

I have a friend who likes to use PCs not so much because of Windows but the fact that he can build his own computer using top-of-the-line components for a very good price. He personally doesn't understand why Mac users pay such a big premium for their computers. Yes, he would say, OS X might be more stable, but is it light-years better than XP? Not only that, if Apple wants a premium for a stable XP, shouldn't the company charge less for a slower CPU?

Now he's an intelligent and rational guy (in addition to being a computing pro), and his arguements makes sense to me in many ways. I love my TiBook, but we shouldn't let Apple take our loyalty to the Mac for granted. If Steve Jobs expects us to pay 30-40% more for a Mac than a comparable PC, he should give us more reasons than just OS X. I mean, as a regular Windows user (I use it at work), I must admit that Windows isn't the crash-happy jalopy that Macusers make them out to be. I have no regrets about switching (I switched from a Dell laptop to a TiBook a year ago), but unless Apple narrows the performance chasm soon, I can't completely rule out going back to using PCs.

Now, all that said, I must say that a majority of PC users have simply learned to live with the inconvenience and problems of Windows. A lot of my coworkers snickered when I bought my TiBook. I, however, have the last laugh everytime my coworkers scream in agony when their PCs fail to recognize their peripherals or network. I just happily go about my business connecting to our company's network with my TiBook and downloading our .doc and .xls files for work. :D

MacFan25

Jan 20, 2003, 04:10 PM

I agree that most Windows users try to ignore the Windows glitches. Before I switched, I was using Win 98. There was always glitches and problems with it. I could not ignore it. So, I looked at some Macs, got an iMac, and here I am now, a very happy Mac user.:D

CrackedButter

Jan 20, 2003, 04:30 PM

Also people use windows because its what they are brought up with and they don't know any better. Also they stick to what they got with their pc when buying at dell. They are not aware of alternatives either since they don't advertise or have been crushed.

OS/2 and all that seems like hidden history to some people i have spoke to.

I spoke to a person once who only knew macs and windows existed, didn't know about UNIX or anything. There isn't emough awareness of linux or BeOS and people have heard of macs but they are expensive so what else is there?

unc32

Jan 20, 2003, 04:42 PM

Nobody really likes it, they consider it a tool. Whether it works well for them or not, they simply accept it. It is kind of like explaining to someone on the east coast how great california is. They can't understand. The ability to switch is very difficult for the average user, not for price or software, but more importantly it is lack of confidence in computer skills. For most of us the use of a computer is very straight forward and we can figure out anything that might go wrong. For someone who can barely operate windows they can't imagine changing to a system where they don't know how to operate anything.

Hozie

Jan 20, 2003, 05:10 PM

Well, I've been a Windows user for a while now (switched to the dark side from OS9 on a grape iMac) and I have to say, some things about Windows ain't half that bad. As mentioned before, the fact that you can build a top-of the line computer which will smoke most PM's at a fraction of a cost does have a certain appeal. Additionally, WindowsXP and Win2K are actually pretty stable OS'es. Personally, I haven't had a crash on my homebuilt XP box in over a year and a half. Sure, it's not as elegant as OS X, but to say that it crashes every 5 minutes is just not true.

The difference between OS X and XP isn't really stability or performance, it's just the feel of the GUI and the underlying filesystem. For example, the whole registry thing in windows is just wrong, as is the fact that your application installations are spread all over the place. In OS X, it's (generally) as simple as trashing the app and it's preferences. See, to me, that's how it should be.

I've come to a point that I'm very confident with Windows though, and I understand it's tough for anyone who invested that amount of time into learning the workings of an OS to adapt to another. The problem is that to solve any kind of problem in Windows you HAVE to become proficient in it, whereas things are easier (if you want them to be) in OS X. Me, as a serious computer enthusiast, I actually like tinkering with things, which is why my system has always been running optimally but for the average user Windows is just too messy. That leads to OS'es becoming bloated by registry entries, old drivers that create conflicts and systems crashing. Still, it shouldn't be allowed to happen. Is it Microsoft's fault? Yes, in the sense that they expect way too much from the average Joe Blow and that even experienced users get confused at times. No, because XP at least is fundamentally stable.

my 0.02$

ZeroKoolNess1

Jan 20, 2003, 05:54 PM

Here is my opinion on windows. [its long and interesting]

I am currently a student at Northwestern University. I pay my own way, as does my brother, a senior also at Northwestern University. We both work long hours at different jobs to pay our tuitions.

Now, at the beginng of my college experience [this year, i am a freshman] i got a Powerbook g4. I love it and love using it, but what has been said before, windows is cheaper, and i am now wishing i would have got a Vaio or etc.

For about 5 months now i have been working at Kellogg School of Manegement where i do IT for thinkpad T 23s, and you wouldn't believe the problems that people come to me with. It is amazing how bad these computers can get.

While Mac os X is graphically and systematically [file structure, i.e. programs and their self inclusion] Windows does hold a monopoly on business. I plan on going into law and needless to say i plan on returning to windows on my next computer.

To simiply put it, money is a key issue for me, and so is software and conformity. While i have loved my mac experience and will keep my powerbook for notes, excel, etc

Windows is not like it use to be (win 95, ME) it is far more stable and compatable with what i need.

macktheknife

Jan 20, 2003, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by Hozie
Well, I've been a Windows user for a while now (switched to the dark side from OS9 on a grape iMac) and I have to say, some things about Windows ain't half that bad. As mentioned before, the fact that you can build a top-of the line computer which will smoke most PM's at a fraction of a cost does have a certain appeal. Additionally, WindowsXP and Win2K are actually pretty stable OS'es. Personally, I haven't had a crash on my homebuilt XP box in over a year and a half. Sure, it's not as elegant as OS X, but to say that it crashes every 5 minutes is just not true.

The difference between OS X and XP isn't really stability or performance, it's just the feel of the GUI and the underlying filesystem. For example, the whole registry thing in windows is just wrong, as is the fact that your application installations are spread all over the place. In OS X, it's (generally) as simple as trashing the app and it's preferences. See, to me, that's how it should be.

I've come to a point that I'm very confident with Windows though, and I understand it's tough for anyone who invested that amount of time into learning the workings of an OS to adapt to another. The problem is that to solve any kind of problem in Windows you HAVE to become proficient in it, whereas things are easier (if you want them to be) in OS X. Me, as a serious computer enthusiast, I actually like tinkering with things, which is why my system has always been running optimally but for the average user Windows is just too messy. That leads to OS'es becoming bloated by registry entries, old drivers that create conflicts and systems crashing. Still, it shouldn't be allowed to happen. Is it Microsoft's fault? Yes, in the sense that they expect way too much from the average Joe Blow and that even experienced users get confused at times. No, because XP at least is fundamentally stable.

my 0.02$

Yup, I agree with you completely on this issue. Nobody really loves to use Windows, but it isn't as bad of an option most Macusers make it out to be.

Dumbjimmy

Jan 20, 2003, 06:58 PM

There was a time when there were valid reasons for choosing a Mac, but with Windows XP and the pricing disparity, there is no real reason other than wanting to stick with what you know. At least that's my experiencing having supported both platforms for more years than I'd care to think about. Actually if you look at all the cutting edge tech and customization going on right now in the wintel scene it's truly amazing. It's very comparable to the California car scene only in computers. For most kids growing up these days, a computer is more than just a tool, it's an expression of yourself, just like a car is not merely a way to get from point A to point B. I love Windows, and everyone I work with does too, but then most of us love technology too, and that's the big difference. Most people that love Macs love them as tools, whereas most people who love Windows love technology. Don't get me wrong, as wintel has its share of problem, but to use another car analogy, buying a Mac is like buying a Lincoln. You get American reliablility, it's pricey, lots of bells and whistles, and boring. Buying wintel is like buying a Mustang. Equivalent reliability and quality, not nearly so glitzy, but man is it a blast to drive and a blast to mod, and parts availability is out of this world. What you buy depends a lot on how much you like cars and how much you've got to spend.

eyeluvmyimac

Jan 20, 2003, 07:09 PM

nothing against you dumbjimmy but i disagree with your car analogy quite a bit.

I see wintels as the honda civics of the world. tons and tons and tons of aftermarket parts that could make it really good, but with added components often brings added problems. Whereas the mac is like the Acura NSX. Sure they are the same thing really, (they are both computers and both attempt to do the same thing -- drive or compute) but the NSX is so much better than the civic stock, there is no need for aftermarket parts, thus no problems encountered afterwards. The civic could very well beat the NSX in an all out drag race with the right mods, but in long term it would break down much faster than the NSX. That's why you see civic owners trading in all the time and rarely see an NSX traded in. That's why you see wintel owners buying new pcs all the time, and rarely see mac users upgrading, there just is no need. When the need becomes extreme, we make the move.

You want cheap, you want farely reliable, you want to rice-out your cpu, buy a wintel.

You want long-lasting quality, the most stable platform in the world, something to make passer-by's go "whoaaaa!", giving you the best of both worlds, buy a mac.

bousozoku

Jan 20, 2003, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by Nipsy
One thing is certain....people don't get wait in line at midnight excited over Windows.

There is nothing stellar about Windows. It is so mediocre that the world accepts it, joylessly.

Actually, they did wait in line to buy Win95 and Win98, and WinXP at midnight.

LethalWolfe

Jan 20, 2003, 07:35 PM

The majority of PC enthusiasts that I know hate MS and Windows (more so than most Macheads) but they use it 'cause they really don't have an option.

I've been using windows since 3.1 and building my own rigs (and rigs for friends and video editing) for the past few years. My current OS is Win2k although I've toyed around w/XP. I got my first Mac in April and I had previous Mac exposure thru work and school. I prefer operating in the Mac environment than operating in the Windows environment right now. But if MS releases a version of windows that is superior than the current Mac OS I'll probably switch back to windows all the time (I use both platforms currently). I'm pragmatic like that.

But I think as long as Apple stays w/a closed hardware setup it will always have a leg up on windows in terms of stability and lack of conflicts.

Lethal

MacAddict

Jan 20, 2003, 07:49 PM

The funny thing is all these stubborn wintel users who think macs suck have mostly have seen just the old, ugly, problematic OS 9 and below. The wintel users who actually know some stuff about macs think that OS X is the most attractive, stable OS out there, they just know windows, put a lot of money into their machines, and need the software and games that come on a pc.

Second is the money issue yet again. Hate to bring this up agian but i recently got a pc for my mom's house, (don't worry have 5 macs at my dads, including a 15" tibook, and a 17" new imac), i bought it off of a ebay type site for $600 and put some addons in and it runs really well for a pc. Thats the appeal, someone who is looking for a new computer who looks at a high end mac for $3000 and a nice pc for $900 is going to get the pc no matter what the OS.

I mean so many people are needing expansion in their computers these days, so they buy an easily upgradable pc. But what they dont realize is that if you spend the money on a high end mac right now, you wont need to expand. I still have an old iMac Graphite 400DV in my room and it runs OS X most apps fine. I mean that was like 5 or 6 years ago! I admit ive maxed out the ram and done everything i could to make it run as well as possible but it is still a good machine. Can you imagine a pc thats 5 or 6 years old? It would be in the basement covered with dust because of all the frustration of trying to take and old pc and run new software on it.:rolleyes:

SilvorX

Jan 20, 2003, 11:52 PM

i basically cant stand using windows me, ive had enough problems (good thing i never had it installed :D), sometimes i miss windows, but thats what vpc is for, i dont miss windows much anyways
ive reformatted my mac bout 3 times so far, but reformatting on mac is ALOT easier and faster than on windows ;), and i never lost anything while reformatting on mac, while on windows i lost everything many times (most of those times i had to reformat since i couldnt get into xp)

Chimaera

Jan 21, 2003, 04:03 AM

Personally I really like Windows XP - its blazingly fast and highly tweakable - not to mention rock steady - I've been using it for well over a year now and suffered a grand total of one crash - and that was due to a hard disk failure, so not exactly window's fault :) Further to that with a little work you can get the thing booting in no time (my XP box boots in 30s, the lions share of which being initialising hardware at the BIOS level, such as the RAID hardware and stuff) - this is far faster than my work Mac does

In terms of out of the box solutions Macs are probably better, although not as fast, as the equivalent companies in the PC world but an enthusiast can build a machine that looks as good and will smoke any Mac for a comparable price or less.

One thing I have noticed as someone used to working in both worlds - a lot of Mac enthusiasts seem to attribute everyone using PCs as ignorance of the alternatives, or that they cling to some half forgotten bias about ancient OS versions and mac hardware - which is true in a lot of cases - however I have seen the exact same problems in most of the mac community too - an awful lot of people talk about how unreliable Windows is which is frankly not true - not anymore at least, or the MHz myth, which again, is true, but can't account for the huge difference in clock speeds between the best Mac processor and the best PC one.

Both platforms have their pros and their cons - personally I like both and will continue to use both - I am buying a mac laptop as I have need for a laptop, and the sort of things I need it for I find a mac is better suited than a PC one, plus they look extremely nice too, which doesn't hurt, however my main machine at home is a home built AMD rig which is far superior then any mac system I have used for my needs - mainly gaming and watching movies and stuff.

My work is the same, I work for a university department, which use a lot of macs for various reasons (Psychology departments all seem to be mac-based in this country) but also a lot of PCs are used for various reasons, mainly involving serious number-crunching.

A lot of people don't like Microsoft, this is very true and if there were a PC OS that was better - yet STILL DID EVERYTHING THE USER WANTED then an awful lot of people would use that, however there isn't one - Linux has potential but isn't even close to being good enough yet - its fantastic for server appications but isn't close to being desktop ready yet in my opinion.

Anyway, thats my opinion :)

Oh and SilvorX - NOONE likes windows Me - it was an absolute turd of an OS :)

gotohamish

Jan 21, 2003, 06:40 AM

When you buy a computer, be in Windows or MacOS X, you going to spend a fair amount of cash. $400+

Now, windows crashes all the time, we all know that. Whether your machine cost $400 or $3500, THAT SHOULDN'T HAPPEN!

Since the day I installed 10.1 (currenly running 10.2.3) on my G4 500, it has NEVER CRASHED!

That's not "amazing" and "unbelievable" - it's just damn right!

Window's is awful (can you say "C drive"?).

I want to build my own computer, but don't want to run windows, and am a little scared of Linux as a life long mac user. I know you can build G4s, but I have a G4 500 that's okay.

So here's a question... if i upgrade the CPU in my tower to a Dual Ghtz, can I use my old 500Htz processor in a "white box" mac with mac motherboard off ebay etc?:confused:

Chimaera

Jan 21, 2003, 06:48 AM

errr no - Windows does *not* crash all the time - try getting your facts stright - older versions of windows did, certainly - but then, so did older versions of MacOS.

gotohamish

Jan 21, 2003, 07:07 AM

Originally posted by Chimaera
errr no - Windows does *not* crash all the time - try getting your facts stright - older versions of windows did, certainly - but then, so did older versions of MacOS.

I'm well aware of that - show me "FACTS" for either.

Plus, THINK ABOUT IT, taken literally, if it "crahsed all the time" then it wouldn't actually be fully running to crash anyway.

It's a figure of speech. Chill bro.

Chimaera

Jan 21, 2003, 07:51 AM

Fair enough - in my personal experience (both at work and home) Windows OS's of the 9x series (ie win 95, 98 and Me) need to be rebooted at least once a day, this also holds true of Apple OS's up to and including OS9 (well, from version 6 - I'v never used anything older)

However I have found that NT-based versions of Windows rarely, if ever have problems - I've used both Win2k and WinXP extensively and had only a couple of crashes in all that time, mostly due to hardware failure rather than the OS going wonky, as a result I quite happily leave my XP box running 24/7 - it only gets turned off if I'm going to be away more than a day or so. The same can be said for OSX - I've managed to make it fall over once, and that was immediately after a system update, so I assumed that the update went bad somehow - I've never seen it before or since.

My point is its hardly fair to say Windows crashes all the time when that simply is not true - in terms of stability I have found Windows XP and OSX to be on par with each other.

Moxiemike

Jan 21, 2003, 08:27 AM

I think it boils down to the vast majority of people being at work and being used to the idea that at work, their bosses just do whatever it is to maintain productivity and they don't care what tools they use, etc.

For example, I worked at a corporation where myself and two other colleagues used Macs. Everyone else used PCs with Windows. On the whole, people LIKED complaining about their PCs. It's something that's politically non-threatening that they can complain about at the water cooler, on cigarette breaks, waiting for documents to print, et. al.

When I moved jobs over to a more Mac-centric ad agency, you NEVER heard people complain about computers. We either made jokes about our stable of looney clients, shared drinking stories, etc.

This, i think is because creative designers often feel lucky to be in the work positions they are in--using their minds differently than, say, a bean counter at a corporate office.

When I talk to non-designers about design, they have this mystical look in their eyes, like "wow, you do something creative.... i wish i COULD DRAW... then i could be one of you!"

Most people don't like their jobs. It's a fact. And windows allows them to complain without really complaining. :)

I've used Macs since starting my business over two years ago and would NEVER consider a PC. My office mate (dear ol' daddums) uses PCs for AutoCAD, a creative outlet, and he doesn't complain. **** works for hm. :)

medea

Jan 21, 2003, 08:31 AM

Originally posted by Chimaera
errr no - Windows does *not* crash all the time - try getting your facts stright - older versions of windows did, certainly - but then, so did older versions of MacOS.
Sorry but from my personal experience, and that is three seperate computers (also three different brands) all running winXP, Windows and even in it's current proof still crashes way too often and often enough for someone to get so tired of it they would state it crashes all the time. Now with OS X, I have had zero os crashes and the only programs that crashed on me were Internet Explorer and Opera, personally I have never recieved a kernal panic, and those usually occur because of some fault by the user. So since my experience was poor with WinXp and all previous versions of Windows, I would consider those facts.
So to answer the original question of the thread, no I do not like Windows.

LethalWolfe

Jan 21, 2003, 08:54 AM

Originally posted by gotohamish
When you buy a computer, be in Windows or MacOS X, you going to spend a fair amount of cash. $400+

Now, windows crashes all the time, we all know that. Whether your machine cost $400 or $3500, THAT SHOULDN'T HAPPEN!

Since the day I installed 10.1 (currenly running 10.2.3) on my G4 500, it has NEVER CRASHED!

That's not "amazing" and "unbelievable" - it's just damn right!

Window's is awful (can you say "C drive"?).

I want to build my own computer, but don't want to run windows, and am a little scared of Linux as a life long mac user. I know you can build G4s, but I have a G4 500 that's okay.

So here's a question... if i upgrade the CPU in my tower to a Dual Ghtz, can I use my old 500Htz processor in a "white box" mac with mac motherboard off ebay etc?:confused:

Well, obviously you are a well versed windows user since you know it crash all the time...:rolleyes: And, uh, yeah, "c drive" that's aweful I mean, how can you live w/alpha-based drive designations (you do know you can change that right?)...

I've been running Win2k almost 24/7 for over 2 years and the number of non-user caused OS crashes has reached a grand total of ZERO. The number of user caused crashes is probably around a dozen or so and that even surprises me considering the abuse, tinkering, and hardware shuffles my poor PC has suffered through.

I love it when the zealots come out to play.

Lethal

gotohamish

Jan 21, 2003, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by LethalWolfe

Well, obviously you are a well versed windows user since you know it crash all the time...:rolleyes: And, uh, yeah, "c drive" that's aweful I mean, how can you live w/alpha-based drive designations (you do know you can change that right?)...

I've been running Win2k almost 24/7 for over 2 years and the number of non-user caused OS crashes has reached a grand total of ZERO. The number of user caused crashes is probably around a dozen or so and that even surprises me considering the abuse, tinkering, and hardware shuffles my poor PC has suffered through.

I love it when the zealots come out to play.

Lethal

I'm not a zealot - look at the thread we're in for god's sake! I'm playing it as I see it.

I've been a Mac user since 1984 and a PC user since 1988. I've seen all sorts, used all sorts and had mixed experience with both. I HATE Mac Vs. PC arguments - I think MS deserve a lot of credit for making an OS that supports the sheer magnitude of hardware that is available for it, and sometimes Apple can't support there own software and hardware integration.

Don't go giving me |you can change that" comments, as that's not really what having an OS is about. When you take a product out of the box for the first time, or switch to a new platform you want it to work, not have to immediately "change things".

law guy

Jan 21, 2003, 10:14 AM

Mmm. I agree with the many posts noting that since the Windows OS moved from 98 to the NT set-up (2000 and XP), Win. has gotten better in ways. You can leave it on now for days without the needed re-boot ever 24 hrs. or so. It - in theory - now isolates programs so an isolated crash in a certain program doesn't mean a crash everywhere (in theory).

I think windows is okay, but it's not as "fun" as the Mac OS. Although I do agree with the recent article in Macworld that Apples free software does do some odd things - the example given in the article was the block on Apple's software to keep folks from copying sceens of of DVDs, a block not required by law or present on windows machines.

But the real thing is hardware. PC Magazine recently noted that there were only two computer companies making a full line - econ. through living-room size monsters: Dell and HP. Now, in certain areas - I really like what Apple has done - it's powerbooks are a great value - just try and price out an IBM T30 thinkpad coming close to the the 15" - and no superdrive option, no option for anything more than 16 megs of video ram, etc. As I've posted elsewhere ("processor upgrades" - under the hardward discussion) the current Apple offerings keep pace with the consumer intel offerings - and exceed them.

When you get to the workstation - things start to fall apart. Apple's Power Macs are intended to satisfy a number of folks - but I'm not sure that two lines wouldn't be better there. (A higher end offering the big brother of the IBM 970 perhaps or at least taking advantage of IBMs highend processor R&D?)

For example as of this morning for $2400, one could get a Dell Precision Workstation 650 with: 1 Gig of Ram (double your ram free promotion makes that possible), a 64 Meg - and here's the kicker 8 X AGP video slot(as opposed to the powermac's 4X), a dvd-r drive, 1394, USB 2, a XEON 2.4 GHz processor (my feelings are that the p4s really don't dominate over the g4 given the benchmarks out there [See first looks in this month's PC Magazine for a photoshop comparison, for example), an 80 gig HD, with MS XP Pro and MS Office. For the Price of a $3200 power mac - I could bump up the Xeon to 2.6 and add a second 2.6 Xenon - yes two 2.6 GHz Xeons, 1 Gig of Ram, an 8X AGP slot (only a 4X card unless you add more money) with 64 MB or ram for $3200. At that point - there isn't an offering from apple that is so powerful from a hardware standpoint.

[update: I now think my last sentence above is perhaps not the case. I looked at some benchmarks (see the PC Mag Feb. 4 bench mark of the P4 3.08 vs. the Xeon 2.8 in CPU roadmap article and then compared with the text benchmark in the first look of the 1.25 dual G4 in PC Mags first looks) and it appears that the G4 will do well against the Xeon at 2.8 - but that is using only one Xeon. This - happily - reduces my impression that PC midlevel workstations were really gaining on the dual G4s re: price - although I have no benchmark for a DUAL 2.4 system that I priced out to $3200 (a dual 2.8 system would be much more) against a dual 1.25 G4 system - there may be very little difference if the XP or 3rd pty software isn't really taking advantage of the two chips - and if that's the case, the 1.25 G4 is going to be the faster offering if it can hold its own and exceed a p4 3.08 GHz in photoshop... arg! my quest to determine the obvious better value for power is foiled again. The only real thing I can say for the Dell now is that if you have another few thousand above $3200, you can add the two 2.8 Xeons, add the 256 MB 8x vid card ($1400 by itself, I think), SCSI Drives in addition to the ATA 100 drives, etc. - so, the obvious advantage is simply expandability but one quickly goes into a different class of computer not made by Apple when taking that road...].

Now - of course, I mostly write things on my computer - do I need that kind of power - no. But if I have $3200 burning a hole in my pocket, I can certainly get that kind of power - plus If I did have a need I could upgrade the same box - higher speed dual processors, an 8x card with 256 Megs of Video Ram, etc.

When the software isn't that bad, it's this kind of hardware flexability and access to workstation processors and graphics cards that may make folks actually develop a liking for XP, even if its not as fun, or pleasant, or easy.

macmax

Jan 21, 2003, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by ShaolinMiddleFinger
What I don't really understand is that they (people who normally use Windows) are alright with it's little glitches here and there.

Example given: A friend of mine made me a pc....worked great for a month....then at times it wouldn't want to shutdown unless if I pulled the plug....my friends response to that example "Oh, that's just Windows, it happens all the time"

Another example: The mouse on my pc (yes, I cleaned it!) stops responding at times....same response, "Oh, that's just Windows"

I own a pc and 2 macs.
The pc was my sister's bright idea, duh.
the mouse is a logitech optical that works so cool in my macs, but in the pc it works awfully, drivers and all instaled.
The pc has been to the repair shop 4 times in a year, it is a piece of junk.

The macs on the other side just work like heaven all the time, they are my friends, my companions, my family, i adore them .

CRMarvin42

Jan 21, 2003, 11:47 AM

I think the reason why Mac's are perferable to PC despite the cost, availibility, and compatibility issues boils down to intuitiveness. The Mac just makes sense. as a result the learning curve is much shorter to aquire a higher level of proficiency. while windows is difficult to learn, and even more difficult to trouble-shoot.

When you see a friends computer that has been customized to the gills, PC or Mac you want to do the same. When you actually start to tinker you are more likely to do serious damage in windows than on a Mac. When my family was sharing a PC several years ago we weren't allowed to change anything at all, even the preferences with in Internet Explorer. The reason was that shortly after we made any changes the computer would crap out.

when we switched to mac (2000) things got alot easier, even in OS9 trouble shooting was alot easier and in X it is almost unneccesary unless your going really indepth.

I curently use XP on the computers at work and despite the fact that XP is oodles more stable than previous incarnations, i can't get the backround to stay what i want it to be between logins.

It's better than it was but still miles behind the Mac

-hh

Jan 21, 2003, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by CRMarvin42

When you see a friends computer that has been customized to the gills, PC or Mac you want to do the same. When you actually start to tinker you are more likely to do serious damage in windows than on a Mac. When my family was sharing a PC several years ago we weren't allowed to change anything at all, even the preferences with in Internet Explorer. The reason was that shortly after we made any changes the computer would crap out.

I used to be the type who would wade in elbows-deep into the guts of a PC/Mac. Then I found that I didn't have time for such nonsense and started looking at them as merely tools, instead of a techno-toy.

Bottom line is that I dread any "required upgrade" to my ~2 year old Windows PC at work.

For my Mac at home, its now 6 years old and starting to get a bit creaky and unstable because its power supply's voltage is starting to fade. But I rarely have any worries in regards to any hardware or software upgrade. I even installed a newer revision of Photoshop without (gasp!) bothering to back anything up.

FWIW, I keep both of them turned on 24/7. I keep the Mac on because the power supply provides better power after its warmed up; saves me from having to go find a $50 power supply to install in it. The Windows PC is a Dell running 98 that has a flaw in its shutdown routine. There is a patch that will reportedly fix that problem, but I won't let the PC people install it, for fear of what else that might break: I'm still recovering from the problems that came from my "Upgrade" to Office XP.

-hh

gopher

Jan 21, 2003, 01:18 PM

Great website to counter all those people loving PCs:

http://www.macvspc.info

LethalWolfe

Jan 21, 2003, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by gotohamish
Don't go giving me |you can change that" comments, as that's not really what having an OS is about. When you take a product out of the box for the first time, or switch to a new platform you want it to work, not have to immediately "change things".

As I'm sure you know the computer will work fine w/o changing the drive names. I just mentioned you can change the drive name since you seem to dislike alpha-based drive labeling.

I chose to change the drive names on both my PC and Mac for organizational and cosmetic purposes.

Sorry for calling you a zealot. When I see people using absolutes (like "PCs are way better than Macs" or "Windows always crashes") I automaticly kick into sarcastic Devil's Advocate mode. :)

Lethal

Kyle

Jan 28, 2003, 06:10 PM

People like Windows because it's the most popular and people are afraid to be different.

Sabenth

Jan 28, 2003, 07:50 PM

If i can point out i myself am a pc user with windows xp home I also will be owning my first mac very soon as to what model I can honestly say that i dont acutaly fully know which one to choose its not about speed or software for me its about the design aspect of all macs they are so refreshing from a drab dull box but back to the windows os for years ive used windows all flavours inculding some network stuff but mainly just your avrage home user who uses office and a few other programs the main thing that i find iratating inculdeing the new os xp is the fact that windows just cant handel much as far as programs like adobe photoshop and as for video id sooner work with zx spectram than this tin can and i can sate that my system as the sale assitant put it will be more than powerfull enough to do what ever i chuck at it

PC SPECS

AMD 1600XP
512SDRAM
40GIG HD
GEFORCE 2 440MX
SOUND BLASTER LIVE
DVD
CDRW

in simple terms i cant do jack with it if i want to do some design creation for web work forget it it coughs it splutters it stops responding xp and its new oh it wont effect the os is a complet lie on sevral occasions ive been working away only to watch the screen go from what i am doing to a blank white image with a border of close and file or in some cases the system descides it needs to dump some information so with in 20 seconds a reboot will be commited

In its favor though it dosnt crash as offten as it used to with windows 95 and 98 i never uesed windows 200 or that me thing so dont know about those but the whole debate over what a mac can do and fromw what ive seen far more than a pc could ever do with out breaking into a sweat

up untill a few weeks ago i was quite happy to look at what mac vs windows users argments pros and cons were against each other simple answer if i use windows and i am willing to swap over to mac just because its time for a change and also i really do like the look of the new os x compared to the child like interface of windows xp which to be honest hogs up so much of my recorces and ive even disabled the fancy effects that come with it drp shadows fades in and outs etc etc basicly i am left with what looks like windows 95 or 98 and well it might as well be infact i guess it is because it wont run correctly with all the windows xp wizz bang gizmoo effects

and baring in mind my pc is over 2 now i know pc hardware moves fast but for christs sakes i got windows xp with the system i bought it and its 3 years now and nothings changed so

in all fare dues i am now officialy swaping from windows to mac

the cost maybe sligtly higher than pc but at least i am getting what i paid for also the comunity in the mac world is very simlar to the linux world which i also use and ive not had a single problem with linux yet and i am still learning it

well thats my 2 cents worth for you sorry its so long though

Das

Jan 28, 2003, 08:16 PM

If you want tons of software, games, etc... it's a PC world. It's like living in So. Cal. Sure, once in a while we get a quake that drives non-Californians mad with panic (like a massive 1.3), but hey it's So Cal, so I can't complain (nice weather, good sports teams, beaut sunsets) and after a while you'll sleep right through most quakes. If anything, I have a lot to thank for PC bugs. Weird, I know, but I got to learn the operating system inside and out and when I made the migration to macs (as a graphic artist I had little choice in the matter) it made the world of difference.

Once you get past the glitter and down to the marrow, both OS' are the same, just with different copyrights. The Mac isn't without bugs either, it's just having enough patience to overcome them and solve them on your own.

Do I prefer one OS over another? No. Do I even like any OS? No, just as I don't like any pencil or pen I draw with, they are just tools, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. I just use both because one is meant for my graphics and one is meant for games, games, and...dang, what was that other one...oh yah, games. Oh and Macromedia's Director to make cross platform media (a must) and of course putting them side by side with the screensavers:

I'm with stupid --> <--I'm with stupid

Ajmbc

Jan 29, 2003, 10:23 PM

We have 2 Macs and 1 PC (5 are in the 'technology graveyard' in the back of our closet). Both of our macs are running OS X and the Windows machine is running XP. One of our macs is a Graphite DV Imac. It has 128 megs of Ram and runs Jaguar quite well. I've already had to use that software restore junk 3 times on the Windows machine and it is only 2 months old. Windows XP is a vast improvement over ME and 98 (which in my opinion just sucks), but still has a long way to go. You don't ever just wake up in the morning and decide you want do do some video editing (lol, not that anyone does that, but you know what i mean). Take a look at that 'Windows Movie Maker 2' junk. iMovie just blows that away. No doubt about it. Right now, there are more games out for Windows, but i suspect in the future that there will be loads of games for Mac. I personally like the Mac loads better. Tell the average PC user to do what I, an average Mac user does everyday.