Cheapest place to get Windows XP

[Hugh]

Who has the cheapest price to get Windows XP Pro. So far all the prices I've been finding is about $120.00. Any places where I can get that below $100? Any places you might know of that I didn't find though google?

Thanks!

Hugh

[whyrichard]

sometimes, the cheapest place to find something is where you already bought it.


r.

[iamhammill]

If you have a Sam's Club membership I know they sell it there. Not sure the price but I'm sure its competitive.


Oh BTW where in Erie are you from? I lived in Edinboro for about 6 years.

[1dterbeest]

Does it have to be Pro? You can get Home for like $90 in
a lot of places. Newegg (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16837102059) has it for that.

[treblah]

Does it have to be Pro? You can get Home for like $90 in
a lot of places. Newegg (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16837102059) has it for that.

Home does not support multiple processors so if you have a Core Solo mini it would be fine.

[balamw]

Home does not support multiple processors so if you have a Core Solo mini it would be fine.
A dual core or hyperthreaded signle core CPU (seen as two CPUs) is treated as a single processor by XP Home, and is thus supported. See. http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=192370

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[grapes911]

You're not going to find it much cheaper than $120 from a trusted store (maybe ebay or something). It may go on sale or if you keep searching you may find it cheaper, for the extra time you are going to spend searching, it's probably not worth it. I'd just purchase the one you found.

[balamw]

As was posted in another thread another thing to consider is buying XP MCE OEM, since it will install Pro if you don't use disc #2 and is usually cheaper than Pro.

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[acrafton]

Does it have to be Pro? You can get Home for like $90 in
a lot of places. Newegg (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16837102059) has it for that.

FYI, the link is for OEM versions that are stamped "For distribution with a new PC only" so, if you care, it is not legal for you to buy it and use. . .

[Vlade]

FYI, the link is for OEM versions that are stamped "For distribution with a new PC only" so, if you care, it is not legal for you to buy it and use. . .

OEM does not mean illegal, it just means it doesn't have the nice box and manual that the retail box does. For example OEM hard drives don't have a nice box and cables but that doesn't make them illegal!

[Lord Blackadder]

FYI, the link is for OEM versions that are stamped "For distribution with a new PC only" so, if you care, it is not legal for you to buy it and use. . .

Actually, OEM software must be distributed with new "hardware". For example, Newegg will sell you an OEM copy of XP "bundled" with a Molex power cable splitter (new hardware). This is legal.

[balamw]

Actually, OEM software must be distributed with new "hardware". For example, Newegg will sell you an OEM copy of XP "bundled" with a Molex power cable splitter (new hardware). This is legal.
Newegg no longer requires the hardware bundle as the terms have changed, for the better IMHO.
OEM versions are intended for system builders only and cannot be transferred to another PC once it is installed. Purchasers of this software are required to comply with the terms of the System Builder License (http://oem.microsoft.com/downloads/Public/sblicense/English_SB_License.pdf), including responsibility for providing all end-user support.
So it's more about the integration/inseperability from a give system (once installed) and the total lack of support direct from Microsoft than anything else.

Amusingly here's where it gets interesting...

CERTIFICATE OF AUTHENTICITY (COA) LABEL/PROOF OF LICENSE (POL) LABEL. If the individual software license includes a COA or POL label, the system builder who installs the individual software license must attach the COA or POL label, as applicable, to the outside of the fully assembled computer system case in an easily accessible location.

I'm sure this would be hard to enforce, and under the base or inside the battery compartment sound "easily accessible" enough to me.

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[Lord Blackadder]

Newegg no longer requires the hardware bundle as the terms have changed, for the better IMHO.

Really? I bought XP about 4 months ago and had to do the Molex connector thing...not that it was a problem (I actually used it). When did they change things?

As for that sticker, the point is mostly that once you put it on, you can't re-attach it to a new computer. I think it's more a deterrent against buying one copy and then installing it on dozens of PCs.

[Hugh]

If you have a Sam's Club membership I know they sell it there. Not sure the price but I'm sure its competitive.


Oh BTW where in Erie are you from? I lived in Edinboro for about 6 years.

No I don't have a SAM's Club membership, I never figured it was worth it for me since I don't buy in bulk.

As for Erie, I currently live on the East side of Erie, but I grew up on the west side.

Hugh

[tonyl]

Right, Home is fine for sigle dual core.

A dual core or hyperthreaded signle core CPU (seen as two CPUs) is treated as a single processor by XP Home, and is thus supported. See. http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=192370

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[balamw]

Right, Home is fine for sigle dual core.
Unless you actually need one of the features in Pro, like IPSec, encrypted filesystems, more granular security...

Funny, those are all features that are standard in Mac OS....

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[imacintel]

Lol. I just used my HP CD i got with my old Compaq R4000

[jsalicru]

Actually, SP2 addresses the dual core issue if you have XP Home.

Also, I believe the OEM Licence allows them to re-sell it as long as the package is sealed. It can be used for computer builders.

[balamw]

Lol. I just used my HP CD i got with my old Compaq R4000
Although effective, that is most probably a violation of your EULA. Most "come with" licenses are the OEM kind and are tied to a specific machine and are thus not legally transferable to another machine. (Unlike an unused OEM license purchased from NewEgg, or a retail package license).

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[lu0s3r322]

You're not going to find it much cheaper than $120 from a trusted store (maybe ebay or something). It may go on sale or if you keep searching you may find it cheaper, for the extra time you are going to spend searching, it's probably not worth it. I'd just purchase the one you found.

i agree, i searched using froogle and they have reasonable prices

[Timepass]

OEM does not mean illegal, it just means it doesn't have the nice box and manual that the retail box does. For example OEM hard drives don't have a nice box and cables but that doesn't make them illegal!


Ok OEM is ment only to be installed on a New PC that you built. Legally speaking you can not buy an OEM copy for your intel mac because you are NOT the OEM.

Now with my home built PC I am currently on I legelly have an OEM copy of XP pro on it because I am the OEM of the computer.

Apple is the only one who can installed an OEM copy of XP on a mac because they are the OEM of apple computers.

Legelly you need to buy a full verson Retail copy of windows.
Also for most of you all there is noughting offered by XP pro that you would use that is not in XP home. What it means by not supporting dual CPU means it will not support 2 seperated CPUs (basicly they need to be plug into 2 differnt sockets. Dual core is seen as one CPU by the computer. Yes when you look at in inside windows you see 2 cpus but it only one and windows knows that).

The big things that Pro has that Home does not is system restore, networks are limitied to 10 computers (not going to be a problems for most of you) and it does not have remote desktop and considering OSX does not have remote desktop in it at all (3rd party app only) that not an issue for you all. Plus very very few people ever touch it. Remote desktop is mostly used by network admins. simpleless way to put it over 90% of people who use XP really only need XP home. Pro gives them nogthing they would ever use and would not noticed any differnce.

[SpAtZ]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Microsoft-Windows-XP-Home-Full-SP2-FREE-SHIPPING_W0QQitemZ7234277394QQcategoryZ41887QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Got myne from that guy. Booted perfectly and he shipped it fast for free.

[balamw]

Legelly you need to buy a full verson Retail copy of windows.
I think not, but then again IANAL, but neither are you (I hope). Here's Microsoft's definition of who can use an OEM license under the System Builder License.

“System builder” means an original equipment manufacturer, or an assembler, reassembler, or installer of software on computer systems.
I would say that someone using Boot Camp on their Intel Mac would qualify as the latter.

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[Timepass]

I think not, but then again IANAL, but neither are you (I hope). Here's Microsoft's definition of who can use an OEM license under the System Builder License.


I would say that someone using Boot Camp on their Intel Mac would qualify as the latter.

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I dont see it like that and I dont think M$ sees it that way either. Huge part way most places would require you to buy OEM software with hardware. Installer of software general falls you take a blank computer with noughting on it and install everything from scratch to sell.
It pretty clear that the Mac is not a computer to fill that spot and clearly you are not an OEM. General OEM are the ones selling or building the computer. Now if lets say I reselling a computer I could be the OEM but I am resposible to handle all the complates and warrenty issues with the hardware to the hardware manufactors. People with the Mac dont have that respondiblly, You go to apple for all your problems.

Btw you need to read the system builder license again. It states you are the Orgainal ..... So that means you need to be the ORGAINAL installer of software on computer systems.

I dont think the intel mac falls in to that spot at all so again I repeat the ONLY LEGAL way to install windows on the intel mac is to buy a full retail verson. Hate to break that 2 you.

[balamw]

I dont see it like that and I dont think M$ sees it that way either.
Did you even read the Microsoft System Builder License I posted a link to and quoted?

The license gives you the right to resell an unopened OEM license pack to a thrid party System Builder which inculdes not only OEMs as you define them, but also "installer of software on computer systems".

Personally, I used an XP Home SP2 retail upgrade license which I transferred from the PC I replaced the iMac with. The EULA of the retail version explicitly grants me that right.

Are you suggesting that if I were to build a box, install only Linux on it for a few months, and then decide to go out and install XP on that same box I built that I would no longer qualify for an OEM license? But, I would have been fine if I had installed it Day 1?

EDIT: Carefully read the SBL again. Everything from item 2 on only apply once you have opened the package and accepted the SBL for that particular package and "married" it to a single computer. Only item 1 is important to help you understand who is qualified to accept the SBL by opening the package and installing it on a given PC.

The fact that they include not only installers, OEMS and assemblers, but RE-assemblers implies that their definition of what constitutes an original install is MUCH broader than yours.

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[Timepass]

umm you are the one who built the box. So therefor you are still the OEM. Apple is the OEM for the intel mac. Clearly you are not a system builder for that computer.

[balamw]

umm you are the one who built the box. So therefor you are still the OEM. Apple is the OEM for the intel mac. Clearly you are not a system builder for that computer.
But it is not the original software install. Software was previously installed on the system.

How does your logic extend to reassemblers as in my edit above?

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[HckySo]

I suggest not buying it. Everyone with a Windows PC has one, you can just borrow one and it wouldn't matter.

Also does Windows Media Center Edition work on Macs as well?

[plinkoman]

umm you are the one who built the box. So therefor you are still the OEM. Apple is the OEM for the intel mac. Clearly you are not a system builder for that computer.

dude, can you read? did you miss the part balamw posted that you don't have to be the OEM to use it? if you read what he posted, it CLEARLY shows that you don't have to be the system builder to use the OEM copy.

[balamw]

I suggest not buying it. Everyone with a Windows PC has one, you can just borrow one and it wouldn't matter.
And this attitude is exactly why Microsoft should be very happy to sell a reasonably priced, limited support, OEM license of their 5 year old OS to anyone who is willing to pay for one. :(

As for MCE, yes, but. Look at some of the specific threads on that subject.

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[Demon Hunter]

Windows XP student license: $3.60
Boot Camp: free
Selling illegally and ripping off Microsoft: priceless

[Hugh]

Windows XP student license: $3.60
Boot Camp: free
Selling illegally and ripping off Microsoft: priceless


What do you mean $3.60? I looked at getting it from my school but I wasn't saving that much compaired to some of the OEM version.

Hugh

[Vlade]

What do you mean $3.60? I looked at getting it from my school but I wasn't saving that much compaired to some of the OEM version.

Hugh


Several schools (including mine) allow students to have FREE downloadable microsoft software (everything but office), or you can normally pay < $5 for a CD from the campus bookstore.

[sam10685]

try ebay.

[sam10685]

Several schools (including mine) allow students to have FREE downloadable microsoft software (everything but office), or you can normally pay < $5 for a CD from the campus bookstore.

so... what's up with ur avatar? it's not implying what i think it is, is it?

[herrmill]

Try China. Here, you can buy a copy of Windoze XP for 8rmb ($1.00) on the street or 10-12 ($1.25-1.50) on Taobao or eBay. :eek:

[grapes911]

Try China. Here, you can buy a copy of Windoze XP for 8rmb ($1.00) on the street or 10-12 ($1.25-1.50) on Taobao or eBay. :eek:
Are they legal copies? I heard China is a hotbed for piracy.

[herrmill]

Duh! Most everything found here is pirated whether it be DVDs or software.
My guess is that 95% of indiviiduals & the majority of business use pirated software.

Even the rich & powerful aren't immune from temptation. Prior to Dubya's last visit, his father was here the week prior & seen buying a fake watch in the Beijing's Silk Road market.

[matticus008]

Just to clear things up, an OEM license is adequate and legal for installation on a Mac, as balamw has stated. The license must be tied to the computer system, however (so you can't have it installed on a hard drive and swap back and forth between two computers, for example).

However, this:


Personally, I used an XP Home SP2 retail upgrade license which I transferred from the PC I replaced the iMac with. The EULA of the retail version explicitly grants me that right.

is not strictly legal. An upgrade license cannot be used on a "virgin" computer--it can only be used to upgrade a machine with a prior license to a full copy of Windows.

[balamw]

An upgrade license cannot be used on a "virgin" computer--it can only be used to upgrade a machine with a prior license to a full copy of Windows.
Uh. No. As the installer enforces, you can do a clean install with an upgrade license, as long as you provide proof of that previous full license. It doesn't have to be installed at the time.

From the box I have in front of me The enclosed program will search your hard drive and/or CD to confirm your eligibility for this upgrade. The software will install only if you are a licensed user of (98/98SE/ME)

I previously checked the EULA to see if I could transfer it to another comp. and here's what I found from the CD.
14. SOFTWARE TRANSFER. Internal.
You may move the Software to a different Workstation Computer. After the transfer, you must completely remove the Software from the former Workstation Computer.
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[matticus008]

Uh. No. As the installer enforces, you can do a clean install with an upgrade license, as long as you provide proof of that previous full license. It doesn't have to be installed at the time.
You can use it provided that you have a full license for the previous product AND that that product license is for the computer you are installing the upgrade on. In other words, you have to transfer the license to your Mac. The upgrade license for XP and the full license for the prior version must BOTH be in use for the Mac (meaning you can't install Windows 2000 on one computer and then install XP on the Mac). Whether or not you do a clean install isn't the issue. I said prior license, not prior installation.

Also, that full version license cannot typically be an OEM copy and instead has to be a retail copy, as most OEM copies are not legally eligible for upgrade, but the licensing terms have varied with this provision.

[Malfoy]

Several schools (including mine) allow students to have FREE downloadable microsoft software (everything but office), or you can normally pay < $5 for a CD from the campus bookstore.


You goto RIT? I only ask because I do and the situation you described is what we do here. I picked up my copy of XP for $4.60 :)

[balamw]

You can use it provided that you have a full license for the previous product AND that that product license is for the computer you are installing the upgrade on. In other words, you have to transfer the license to your Mac. The upgrade license for XP and the full license for the prior version must BOTH be in use for the Mac (meaning you can't install Windows 2000 on one computer and then install XP on the Mac). Whether or not you do a clean install isn't the issue. I said prior license, not prior installation.
Where does it say that my right to transfer the current license (of XP) to another workstation is contingent on anything but the removal of XP from the other box? Please provide the appropriate backup for your assertions, as I have. The way I read it the new XP license supercedes all previous licenses I may have had, in effect it becomes the only license.

I concur that by installing the upgrade license any such licenses that were upgraded become null and void, so you can't just continue to run the old OS license on the old machine. In my case, the old machine has been disassembled and the hard drive was (at least temporarily) in a USB enclosure attached to my iMac during the install process. (Now it's on a shelf). Think of it as I replaced the motherboard and video card of the machine, but kept the hard drive. IMHO, though IANAL, I have fully complied with my transfer right in the EULA by physically removing the OS from the machine that it had previously been installed on. If I choose to reinstall Windows on there, I will need to buy a new license.

Note that your example is a bit misleading in that Win2K is not eligible for an upgrade to XP Home (only to XP Pro). Further complicating things, some licenses, give you OS downgrade rights, where you are given the right to run an older version of the OS on the licensed machine. (e.g. you can buy a license of XP Pro, when you need to run 2K). Since you can't currently buy 2K, this is a way the Microsoft allows people to legally buy a license and use the OS they need to support legacy apps, etc...

EDIT: Here's the current XP Home EULA http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/home/eula.mspx

Read in particular point 21, point 13 and point 9. In that order.

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[bodeh6]

My brother or sister can get XP Pro for $14.15 from the University of Michigan Bookstore Ann Arbor. At Wayne State University where I go it is $73 for the Upgrade, they don't list the Full Edition.

[supremedesigner]

Home does not support multiple processors so if you have a Core Solo mini it would be fine.

LOL The only place I know where to get it for free ... well you gotta ask the college if they have a lot of unopened XP "home" disc. I swear the last time I was there, they have bunch of these! Check it out!

[supremedesigner]

You goto RIT? I only ask because I do and the situation you described is what we do here. I picked up my copy of XP for $4.60 :)

RIT? Isn't that a deaf school or something?

[Malfoy]

RIT? Isn't that a deaf school or something?


LOL, we do have one of the largest deaf schools in the country, http://www.ntid.rit.edu/. But first and foremost we are a tech school. :)

[matticus008]

Where does it say that my right to transfer the current license (of XP) to another workstation is contingent on anything but the removal of XP from the other box? Please provide the appropriate backup for your assertions, as I have. The way I read it the new XP license supercedes all previous licenses I may have had, in effect it becomes the only license.
Removal of the software from one machine to install on another machine is the process by which you transfer a license from one to the other. We're not in disagreement here. I'm not sure where you're reading that you have to do more than that in my posts.


I concur that by installing the upgrade license any such licenses that were upgraded become null and void, so you can't just continue to run the old OS license on the old machine. In my case, the old machine has been disassembled and the hard drive was (at least temporarily) in a USB enclosure attached to my iMac during the install process. (Now it's on a shelf). Think of it as I replaced the motherboard and video card of the machine, but kept the hard drive. IMHO, though IANAL, I have fully complied with my transfer right in the EULA by physically removing the OS from the machine that it had previously been installed on. If I choose to reinstall Windows on there, I will need to buy a new license.
Yes, that's accurate. However, if you will look at your original post, you didn't mention your original license. You stated that you transfered an upgrade license to a new computer without making mention of removing the prior version from the computer, which is misleading to others. By your original statements alone, you could potentially mislead others into thinking that you can have a prior version of Windows on a PC and buy a Windows XP upgrade license and install it on the Mac, with the only requirement being that you own a license for another version of Windows. This is not accurate, and is the issue I wanted to address.

If you buy an upgrade license, there must concurrently be a FULL VERSION license for that machine. Your original post does not mention this requirement, and given that relative newbies will be reading this post, it was incomplete and inaccurate.

As long as you have a license to the full version of a prior version of Windows (be it XP Pro, Home, MCE, 2000, 98) and that license is attached to your Macintosh, you can use an upgrade license to bring that machine up to date along a qualified upgrade path. If your full version of the prior OS is not a full retail edition, but instead a full OEM version, there is a high likelihood that the upgrade license is NOT valid, even though the disc will check out. The CD checking is not a final arbiter of license validity (you could also just borrow a neighbor's CD to fool the upgrade installer), so you cannot proceed on the assumption that your licensing arrangement is legal just because you installed successfully.

Note that your example is a bit misleading in that Win2K is not eligible for an upgrade to XP Home (only to XP Pro). Further complicating things, some licenses, give you OS downgrade rights, where you are given the right to run an older version of the OS on the licensed machine. (e.g. you can buy a license of XP Pro, when you need to run 2K). Since you can't currently buy 2K, this is a way the Microsoft allows people to legally buy a license and use the OS they need to support legacy apps, etc...
I just used Windows 2000 as an example of a prior version. It wasn't meant as a universal upgrade strategy.

Also take note that that is NOT the license agreement for OEM copies of Windows. Referencing your own link, item 21's terms are the extent of the agreement between you and Microsoft if you are a party of that EULA--the Windows XP Home Edition Retail End-User License Agreement. Terms for an OEM copy of Microsoft Windows vary depending on the source.

[balamw]

Terms for an OEM copy of Microsoft Windows vary depending on the source.
Well we agree on that too! I think we agree much more than we disagree, and I think it has been a useful discussion.

My main point is this. There is not such thing as an OEM upgrade licenses, only retail Full Packaged Product labelled as such. In order to qualify for this upgrade you need a legal, upgradeable, license of a product than Microsoft has deemed eligible for the upgrade installed on a PC or available to be installed on a PC. (This appears to be what you are referring to as the full license, but it could also be a previous upgrade license, or qualifying OEM license, etc...). Let's call this the old license.

In the case of the license I used to qualify for the upgrade, its history derives from a license of MS DOS 5.0 I got with a long dead 80186 Tandy PC (before they differentiated OEM and retail licenses) upgraded that to MS DOS 6.2, upgraded that to Windows 3.1, upgraded that to Windows 95, and most recently upgraded to XP Home. I also have separate Windows 98, Win2K, XP Pro, and Windows ME licenses and media. Only the XP Pro (OEM) license is on a machine that is currently in use. The 98 and ME licenses are tied to machines and are not transferrable.

Installing the upgrade revokes your old license and gives you a new Windows license that is now governed by the retail EULA I linked to. Said retail EULA gives you the right to internally transfer said new license to another computer, which may or not have been your right under the old license.

When you transfer the new license to the new machine, you remove the new license from the old machine and install it on the new machine. The old revoked license no longer comes in to the picture except in that the media can be used to satisfy the installer.

As you stated the license and the installer are not equivalent. Satisfying the installer doesn't mean you have a valid, legal license, and having a legal license doesn't immediately satisfy the installer or activation. Note that I used the full Windows ME media I received from Microsoft as part of my participation in their beta program to satisfy the installer, even though the XP license itself was derived most recently from a separate Windows 95 license I no longer know where the floppies (yes, I said floppies) went. I know I have them, just not at my fingertips.

Again, IANAL, this is only my opinion. Read the documents yourself and come to your own conclusions.

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[Cartman]

Newegg or Zipzoomfly is your best bet

[matticus008]

Well we agree on that too! I think we agree much more than we disagree, and I think it has been a useful discussion.
I'm almost positive that we agree in interpretation of the EULA and policies :) . I think it was just the fact that you didn't mention the full version license at all in your original post that prompted me to respond.

My main point is this. There is not such thing as an OEM upgrade licenses, only retail Full Packaged Product labelled as such. In order to qualify for this upgrade you need a legal, upgradeable, license of a product than Microsoft has deemed eligible for the upgrade installed on a PC or available to be installed on a PC.
Sorry, my wording might have been confusing. The upgrade license (which is as you say only available in retail form these days) can be used to upgrade a prior retail, full version of Windows without a second thought. An OEM, full version of Windows may or may not qualify, and a previous upgrade version (retail or OEM [though OEM upgrades no longer exist, as you say]) could also go either way. For example, the Windows 3.1 -> Windows 95 Upgrade ->Windows 98 Upgrade path was not always legal. I think Microsoft has cleared this up starting with XP (and the elimination of OEM upgrade licenses had a big part to do with this). They're moving in the right direction, but it's still pretty messy.

So I guess I'm saying:
OldWindows Full Retail -> Windows Full Retail = no problem, can be installed simultaneously.
OldWindows Full Retail copy -> Windows XP Upgrade = No problem.
OldWindows Full OEM copy -> Windows XP Upgrade = Usually okay, check your specific OEM license.
OldWindows Upgrade (via OlderWindows) -> Windows XP Upgrade = might be problematic; just fine starting with XP onward into the future.

Installing the upgrade revokes your old license and gives you a new Windows license that is now governed by the retail EULA I linked to. Said retail EULA gives you the right to internally transfer said new license to another computer, which may or not have been your right under the old license.
More or less correct. The installed upgrade becomes the "top layer of paint" on the stack of licenses below it (Microsoft licensing terms have varied on whether you can upgrade an upgrade...some wordings have required you to alternate between full version licenses and upgrade licenses). If you transfer that license, the "old layers" are also transferred, as the whole ball of wax is a single unit. You can choose to install any licensed OS, but only any ONE of them at a time. Strictly speaking, you can't even dual boot Windows 2000 and XP Pro if the XP Pro license was an upgrade, even though you have that Windows 2000 license and media. However, this is a quirk of law and even the RIAA would probably not prosecute for a dual-boot on the same system.

Of course, I'm not saying that's the way things should be, only that that's the way they are.

the XP license itself was derived most recently from a separate Windows 95 license I no longer know where the floppies (yes, I said floppies) went. I know I have them, just not at my fingertips.
Dear god, I remember those days. Windows 95 came on something like 42 floppies (or a CD). Thankfully, it was the last OS to do so. At the time, I had a handful of computers with no CD drives, so I had a stack of licenses and floppy media. Eventually, I destroyed all but the first disk and the license when all of the machines were upgraded or replaced with ones with "high speed" (4x, I think) CD drives.