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MacRumors
Apr 20, 2006, 03:30 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

TG Daily claims (http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/04/19/intel_to_ship_core_inq3_2006/) that faced with increasing competitive pressure from AMD, Intel has accelerated the launch of its upcoming processors.

The upcoming processors include Woodcrest, Conroe and Merom. All three are now expected to be shipping "in volume" in Q3 2006. This could mean that processors would be available as early as June or July of this year.

Conroe processors (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/03/20060307170617.shtml) are Intel's Desktop CPU from their Core microarchitecture. They come in a 65-nm process and are speculated/rumored to be used in Apple's upcoming Intel PowerMac revisions.

Meanwhile, Merom is Intel's 64-bit mobile processor which is said to have better performance than the current Core Duos with the same power consumption. The Merom processor is also said to be pin compatible (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/04/20060412011938.shtml) with the current Core Duo processors. Merom processors would presumably be used in upcoming MacBook Pros.

Little has been said about Apple's plans (if any) for Woodcrest, which is Intel's server-targeted processor.

sunfast
Apr 20, 2006, 03:37 AM
This can only be a good thing (but I bet some people are going to rate it negative). This means we may be on Rev B Merom by the time I buy a new portable!

Bern
Apr 20, 2006, 03:41 AM
Like I said time and again, best to wait it out and get a Rev B or Rev C MacBook Pro.

Bakey
Apr 20, 2006, 04:04 AM
This can only be a good thing (but I bet some people are going to rate it negative). This means we may be on Rev B Merom by the time I buy a new portable!

And somebody already has!! I know comments have been made in the past but I really don't get it... Why, oh why, oh why would such a story receive a negative?!?

Should pull said individual[s] up and demand they give a valid argument!!

Anyway, back to the story...

Personally looking to the future of an all Intel line-up, and a future where I can safely purchase an Intel desktop machine -- I'm desperately trying to avoid the use of PowerMac here as I know it ain't gonna be called such!!

Great stuff... ;)

gauchogolfer
Apr 20, 2006, 04:13 AM
And somebody already has!! I know comments have been made in the past but I really don't get it... Why, oh why, oh why would such a story receive a negative?!?

Should pull said individual[s] up and demand they give a valid argument!!


I voted positive, but I can see how some folks might be bitter if they just shelled out big bucks for the MBP thinking Core Duo would be top of the line for the rest of this year, as was originally thought. I don't agree with this line of thinking, by the way, I'm just speculating.

Veldek
Apr 20, 2006, 04:14 AM
And somebody already has!! I know comments have been made in the past but I really don't get it... Why, oh why, oh why would such a story receive a negative?!?

Should pull said individual[s] up and demand they give a valid argument!!Well, as noone ever gave an explanation to what the ratings mean, you could also interpret a negative rating as "I don't believe it". That would make it totally possible to vote like this.

mattyturner
Apr 20, 2006, 04:15 AM
Faced with increasing competitive pressure from AMD, Intel apparently has accelerated its launch schedule of its new Core microarchitecture.

That's tosh if ever I read it. AMD can't even afford to fully transition their fabs right now to the latest process. By the time they do (get to 65nm) Intel will be looking at 45nm

Potentially this could be talking about the AM2 platform, whenever that comes out. Unlike the current generation though AMD may not beat Intel (and conroe) in the high performance stakes this time round, or it will be close.

I think Intel just want to get something new out sooner to help with sales.

MacQuest
Apr 20, 2006, 04:21 AM
We should see an invitation from Apple any moment now for a media event that will introduce "Fun, new, Xserves with 64-bit Woodcrest Core processors... NEXT TUESDAY!"

Just in time for students to get Xserves as graduation presents.

And of course, Xserve socks.

Dr.Gargoyle
Apr 20, 2006, 04:25 AM
I voted positive, but I can see how some folks might be bitter if they just shelled out big bucks for the MBP thinking Core Duo would be top of the line for the rest of this year, as was originally thought. I don't agree with this line of thinking, by the way, I'm just speculating.
I believe the days when a Mac could be top of the line for a year or more are over. The intel transition put an effective stop to that.

pknz
Apr 20, 2006, 04:26 AM
Hopefully the Woodcrest chip comes in a wood finish. That would be 'hella sweet.'

Max on Macs
Apr 20, 2006, 04:42 AM
I believe the days when a Mac could be top of the line for a year or more are over. The intel transition put an effective stop to that.
You make it sound like a bad thing. But it's a brilliant thing - all it means is that computers are getting better, faster.

Dr.Gargoyle
Apr 20, 2006, 04:47 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)
The upcoming processors include Woodcrest, Conroe and Merom. All three are now expected to be shipping "in volume" in Q3 2006. This could mean that processors would be available as early as June or July of this year.

Conroe processors (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/03/20060307170617.shtml) are Intel's Desktop CPU from their Core microarchitecture. They come in a 65-nm process and are speculated/rumored to be used in Apple's upcoming Intel PowerMac revisions.

Schweeet. This might mean I will be able to retire my PM G4 MDD as a mail/file server around September. I just hope they don't change the casing of the PM. I like the clean design. Since the new PM most likely will come with PhotoBooth, I wonder if that means we will see a new cinema display line with integrated iSight.

the.snitch
Apr 20, 2006, 04:47 AM
I cant wait till the 64bit meroms get into the macs. It may convince me to upgrade to a MBP. And we are getting closer to the day when every mac will be 64-bit :cool:

sluthy
Apr 20, 2006, 04:48 AM
So I guess we'll probably see a preview of Conroe-based Mac Pros (?) at WWDC? In August I believe? Maybe Woodcrest Xserves "coming soon"? That would also allow Apple to brag "We said we'd finish transitioning before WWDC '07 - well, we're a year early! Watch our stock!" :D

MacQuest
Apr 20, 2006, 04:49 AM
Hopefully the Woodcrest chip comes in a wood finish. That would be 'hella sweet.'

Hopefully Crest (http://www.crest.com/products/toothpastes.jsp) comes out with wood flavored toothpaste and dental floss made out of wood chips.

It just makes sense.

Dr.Gargoyle
Apr 20, 2006, 04:51 AM
You make it sound like a bad thing. But it's a brilliant thing - all it means is that computers are getting better, faster.
I do not perceive this as a bad thing, not at all. On the contrary, I am very pleased that I don't have to argue that a 7 (G4 ?) year old chip is still competitive...:)

Kelmon
Apr 20, 2006, 04:56 AM
The news is definitely good. I'm waiting on the baddest Merom-based MacBook Pro that I can buy but that won't be until September. Given this news I hope that not only will new MacBook Pros be available sooner this year but that any supply problems are eliminated by the time that I can buy and any bugs that are discovered with the computers themselves.

A few short months still seems to long to wait...but I'm damned excited.

MacQuest
Apr 20, 2006, 05:01 AM
I believe the days when a Mac could be top of the line for a year or more are over. The intel transition put an effective stop to that.

You make it sound like a bad thing. But it's a brilliant thing - all it means is that computers are getting better, faster.

Hmmm... a main selling point for Macs is that "on average, they last 2-3 times longer than winBlows pEEcEEs", and that may not seem true much longer because of Intels quick processor update cycles.

Although, technically it still is true, because the OS, and the seamless integration between the hardware, is what keeps Macs humming along for much longer than winBlows pEEcEEs that need replacement due to either bargain bin parts, or especially, the unbearable system performance degradation inherent in winBlows' antiquated, registry based OS.

I see Dr. Gargoyles's point, but like "Max on Macs", I don't necessarily see this a s a bad thing.

There's a big difference between a Mac user who wants to upgrade every 2 years, and the typical winBlows Luser that has to upgrade every to years.

timmillwood
Apr 20, 2006, 05:04 AM
its nice that in theory you can upgrade a mac mini etc with a Merom

I am looking to upgrade my powermac early 2007 and i am hoping for conroe or maybe woodcrest in that.

but a 17" MBP with Merom might be nice

joelypolly
Apr 20, 2006, 05:04 AM
Well this just changed my plans.... Anyone want to buy an almost new 20" iMac intel???

kallaway1
Apr 20, 2006, 05:10 AM
Can I just say that it's kind of annoying when people spell out PC's as "pEEEcEEEs"? Or purposely mispelling any word(s) to be cool, for that matter.

Anyways, now that nasty bit of business is off my chest, on to the post! I have been hoping (read: praying every night) that this would come true! I'm selling my current laptop (an Asus 15") to my sister when I get back to the states in July, and I *have* to buy or at least order a new school computer by August in time for the new school year. I hated the idea of thinking that I would buy a core duo only to have the Merom's released 1-2 months later.

Do you guys think Merom will be put into the Mini straight away? That's what I'm planning on buying, along with an NEC 20WMGX2 20" LCD. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000E8B6MY/sr=8-2/qid=1145527718/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-9188099-7013633?%5Fencoding=UTF8)

Dr.Gargoyle
Apr 20, 2006, 05:15 AM
I see Dr. Gargoyles's point, but like "Max on Macs", I don't necessarily see this a s a bad thing.
My post was just state of the fact. As you wrote yourself, the much faster update cycles of intel will effectively render a top-of-the-line computer "old" much faster. However, this does not prevent the computer to be perfectly functionable for years to come.
Eventhough my post perhpas can be interpreted as slightly negative, it wasn't meant as such as you can see from my response above.

THX1139
Apr 20, 2006, 05:15 AM
You make it sound like a bad thing. But it's a brilliant thing - all it means is that computers are getting better, faster.

OK, yeah, that's cool if you have the money to spend...but for the rest of use, it means Mac machine will depreciate quicker and we will have to replace the whole machine to keep up (if you need the speed). In the PC world where professionals (and gamers) rely on the fastest machines they can get their hands on, they can upgrade their machines by swapping out the motherboard and replacing the chip. Their machines have a longer shelf life due to upgradablity. In the Intel Mac world, we might be stuck with something that is "old" within 6 months unless Apple lets us replace the motherboard and chip. Having said that, one of the reasons previous Macs have held their value so well it that they were slow on generational releases. A two year old G5 is still a pretty darn good machine, but the switch to Intel is going to change that. PC's on the other hand, are practically worthless for resale if you keep them more than a year. Most PC builders run their machines into the dust, but they can get at least 3 or 4 life cycles via upgrading components before they need to start over.

MacVault
Apr 20, 2006, 05:26 AM
The question is not only if Apple is interested in Woodcrest for their xServe/enterprise/server product, but more like... IS APPLE F---ING INTERESTED IN THE ENTERPRISE/SERVER MARKET AT ALL ANYMORE? Why they heck don't they try to get more into the enterprise market? I'd love to get rid of the Dell servers at my credit union's data center and switch from Active Directory to and Apple solution - IF THEY F---ING HAD A WORTHY SOLUTION! I've never used Open Directory but I do use Active Directory and it doesn't seem like Apple can compete in that area. But why don't they try more? They don't seem to promote their enterprise solutions much. Oh well, I'll stop my rant now and go back to sleep. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Shadows
Apr 20, 2006, 05:31 AM
hmm i've just ordered my imac 20" and its arriving in a few days.

What are the advantages of merom?

Is it worth the returning my imac.

hmmm..... this is interesting

Dr.Gargoyle
Apr 20, 2006, 05:33 AM
OK, yeah, that's cool if you have the money to spend...but for the rest of use, it means Mac machine will depreciate quicker and we will have to replace the whole machine to keep up (if you need the speed). In the PC world where professionals (and gamers) rely on the fastest machines they can get their hands on, they can upgrade their machines by swapping out the motherboard and replacing the chip. Their machines have a longer shelf life due to upgradablity. In the Intel Mac world, we might be stuck with something that is "old" within 6 months unless Apple lets us replace the motherboard and chip. Having said that, one of the reasons previous Macs have held their value so well it that they were slow on generational releases. A two year old G5 is still a pretty darn good machine, but the switch to Intel is going to change that. PC's on the other hand, are practically worthless for resale if you keep them more than a year. Most PC builders run their machines into the dust, but they can get at least 3 or 4 life cycles via upgrading components before they need to start over.
The intel transition might as you pointed out become expensive for Mac FPS gamers. But, if you like me prefer strategy games you can run a new game on an old machine. I really dont see any reason why you need to a FPS on a computer, when you have PS, Xbox... Computers has become more and more specialized over the years. Building a computer that does it all, is like building a amphibious car. You get a really crappy car and a really crappy boat all in one. I believe that most users would object to that direction eventhough it might come in handy now and then.
The reason I chose a Mac was stability. I use my mac in for research, hence I dont have any room for crashes or dataloss. I believe that the stability of OSX would be compromised if Apple allowed for upgrades.
I would seriously consider a designated gamebox if I were into FPS games.

eXan
Apr 20, 2006, 05:37 AM
TG Daily claims that faced with increasing competitive pressure from AMD, Intel has accelerated the launch of its upcoming processors.

Competition is a good thing! (for us, users ;) )

Lollypop
Apr 20, 2006, 05:47 AM
All apple needs to do is to now make their machines easily upgradable to the newer processors, I know the iMac and mini are, but its not so easy to do so. If apple could bring their ease of use to the hardware side they could really keep the new intel macs from loosing value as fast as the rest of the PC world does.

runninmac
Apr 20, 2006, 05:58 AM
Wow so is WWDC going to be moved forward for this? I can garuntee Apple wants to announce a hell-of-a-setup there. I think this is great news, if only my iPod would get back from repair so I could back up my iBook then sell it.:)

aegisdesign
Apr 20, 2006, 06:19 AM
hmm i've just ordered my imac 20" and its arriving in a few days.

What are the advantages of merom?

20% less power used, 25% more performance per clock, faster clock speeds, 64bit support, 128bit SSE4 implementation that runs twice as fast as the Core Duo and almost as good as AltiVec...

They might even use Conroe in the iMac so it'd get up to a 1333Mhz FSB and come in up to 3Ghz too if the rumourmill is to be believed.

Is it worth the returning my imac.

hmmm..... this is interesting

Only if you can cope without a Mac for the next 4-6 months or so and believe rumour sites.

If you need to run PowerPC software, it's pointless buying one in the first place though.

I said it back in January, Core Duo is the last of the old tech, a stop gap measure for marketing purposes before the real Core architecture arrives. Merom, Conroe and Woodcrest are the real deal.

Thanks everybody for working out the bugs for us lot waiting for the first proper Intel Macs and native software though.

AidenShaw
Apr 20, 2006, 06:25 AM
So I guess we'll probably see a preview of Conroe-based Mac Pros (?) at WWDC? In August I believe? Maybe Woodcrest Xserves "coming soon"?
Conroe cannot run in a dual-socket configuration, so a Conroe-based system is limited to two cores. Not really a replacement path for the quad PMG5.

Woodcrest will do dual-socket (4 cores total), but Intel has always priced their Xeon-class CPUs and chipsets at a premium.

Aiden's prediction is:


Conroe - new dual-core small mini-tower form factor ("PowerMac"), more RAM capacity (8 GiB), PCIe x16 graphics card (user-upgradeable), 3.5" SATA disk (up to 500 GB), room for second HD or second optical. Fills huge product gap between the MiniMacIntel and the PowerMac G5 maxi-tower.
Woodcrest - maxi-tower replacement for the PMG5 ("PowerMac Pro"). Dual-socket (4 cores), 16-32 GiB RAM, more disks than PMG5, $500 price increase from PMG5

Roller
Apr 20, 2006, 06:27 AM
hmm i've just ordered my imac 20" and its arriving in a few days.

What are the advantages of merom?

Is it worth the returning my imac.

hmmm..... this is interesting

I've had an Intel iMac for a week and I'm thrilled with it. I was going to wait until the Intel "PowerMacs" came out, but Boot Camp and Parallels changed all that - I had been using Virtual PC to run a few Windows apps, but this is so much better.

I understand what some people are saying about Intel Macs depreciating faster with shorter upgrade cycles. Still, I much prefer this situation to the days when we Mac users were desperate for any news from Motorola and then IBM. I also think that the speed of the Intel transition has been remarkable.

It's also worth remembering that many of the improvements in Intel CPUs will be in areas like power consumption rather than clock speed, so the feeling that what you buy today will become obsolete tomorrow will be less.

Edge100
Apr 20, 2006, 06:29 AM
Like I said time and again, best to wait it out and get a Rev B or Rev C MacBook Pro.

Or you could just keep waiting...and waiting...and waiting.

aswitcher
Apr 20, 2006, 06:32 AM
Given this announcement what do people expect of the next rev of the intel iMac?

How much faster?
Cheaper?

Edge100
Apr 20, 2006, 06:33 AM
hmm i've just ordered my imac 20" and its arriving in a few days.

What are the advantages of merom?

Is it worth the returning my imac.

hmmm..... this is interesting

No.

Your iMac will be fast, fast, fast. When the Merom chips come out, your iMac will not slow down.

You can ALWAYS wait for something faster/bigger/better. Or you can get what you need today, and upgrade if (and only if) you NEED faster/bigger/better.

Your iMac will be fast "enough" for a number of years.

Multimedia
Apr 20, 2006, 06:52 AM
Fine. But Conroe, Woodcrest & Merom Macs Still Won't Be Ready Before September. All this means is that the first MacIntel desktops and 64-bit mobiles may be released a month earlier than Apple was planning on. But it still means AFTER WWDC and likely September at the earliest. Not really that much sooner than I was expecting anyway. :rolleyes: No biggie.

Read Alden Shaw's Post 33.

Peyton
Apr 20, 2006, 06:53 AM
This is such great news, I have 2 tests today and this really brightens up everything!

I was planning on the 17 incher, but now maybe wait... maybe apple had somehints about this and was waiting for to release the 17 along with merom...

I can only hope :o

Max on Macs
Apr 20, 2006, 06:55 AM
OK, yeah, that's cool if you have the money to spend...but for the rest of use, it means Mac machine will depreciate quicker and we will have to replace the whole machine to keep up (if you need the speed). In the PC world where professionals (and gamers) rely on the fastest machines they can get their hands on, they can upgrade their machines by swapping out the motherboard and replacing the chip. Their machines have a longer shelf life due to upgradablity. In the Intel Mac world, we might be stuck with something that is "old" within 6 months unless Apple lets us replace the motherboard and chip. Having said that, one of the reasons previous Macs have held their value so well it that they were slow on generational releases. A two year old G5 is still a pretty darn good machine, but the switch to Intel is going to change that. PC's on the other hand, are practically worthless for resale if you keep them more than a year. Most PC builders run their machines into the dust, but they can get at least 3 or 4 life cycles via upgrading components before they need to start over.
Just because they will get better quicker, doesn't mean you will have to upgrade quicker. If you don't want to upgrade you won't have to. Unlike PCs Macs don't degrade over time, even if they are using Intel chips, it's the OS that makes PCs degrade over time. Actually, they don't, but the OS does (partly because the more of an NTFS partition you use the slower it gets and partly because of the registry and the other mess that is Windows) and your aerage pleb will just say "My computer is getting slow so I need a new one" that doesn't happen much at all on a mac and so their lifespan will stay the same, even if they get better quick, it's only the pros and people who need performance who will stay current all of the time.

ImAlwaysRight
Apr 20, 2006, 06:59 AM
hmm i've just ordered my imac 20" and its arriving in a few days.

What are the advantages of merom?

Is it worth the returning my imac.

hmmm..... this is interesting
No telling if Apple is even going to use the Merom in the iMac, at least not right away. Merom chips may not even be used in the MacBook Pro the minute the Merom is available from Intel but could be delayed for months for cost reasons. Anyone seen pricing on the Merom? How does it compare to Yonah chips?

I think there is a good chance we'll see the MacBook and possibly iMac stick with Yonah well into 2007, while MacBook Pro would be the obvious first to transition to Merom. Now if the MacBook is released with Merom in it, and the MBP and iMacs are immediately announced to be shipping with Merom in July 2006, that would be a shocker. :eek:

MIDI_EVIL
Apr 20, 2006, 07:03 AM
If Apple put a socketted Intel Processor in the Mini, there is no doubt they will put one in the PowerMac.

You must be able to upgrade the processor in the next gen of PowerMacs.

As for the Motherboard, maybe that will be a possibility as manufacturers may decide to produce for Mac since the Intel switch.

Apart from the frontside bus, what other benefits would there be to upgrading a motherboard on a two year old Intel PowerMac?

Rich.

adamfilip
Apr 20, 2006, 07:09 AM
Really? hmm.. well thats no good
woodcrest better be used then in the new PowerMacs or whatever

i really want 4 or more cores
otherwize id just buy the current quad


Conroe cannot run in a dual-socket configuration, so a Conroe-based system is limited to two cores. Not really a replacement path for the quad PMG5.

Woodcrest will do dual-socket (4 cores total), but Intel has always priced their Xeon-class CPUs and chipsets at a premium.

Aiden's prediction is:


Conroe - new dual-core small mini-tower form factor ("PowerMac"), more RAM capacity (8 GiB), PCIe x16 graphics card (user-upgradeable), 3.5" SATA disk (up to 500 GB), room for second HD or second optical. Fills huge product gap between the MiniMacIntel and the PowerMac G5 maxi-tower.
Woodcrest - maxi-tower replacement for the PMG5 ("PowerMac Pro"). Dual-socket (4 cores), 16-32 GiB RAM, more disks than PMG5, $500 price increase from PMG5

BenRoethig
Apr 20, 2006, 07:12 AM
So I guess we'll probably see a preview of Conroe-based Mac Pros (?) at WWDC? In August I believe? Maybe Woodcrest Xserves "coming soon"? That would also allow Apple to brag "We said we'd finish transitioning before WWDC '07 - well, we're a year early! Watch our stock!" :D

If Apple uses the desktop class conroe instead of the server class Woodcrest to replace the server class PPC970MP just to save a few bucks, it'll be a huge mistake. Say goodbye to the quad for starters.

adamfilip
Apr 20, 2006, 07:15 AM
i bet apple will use conroe in the low and med end version
and a dual woodcrest to make a high end quad

shanmui1
Apr 20, 2006, 07:18 AM
They might even use Conroe in the iMac so it'd get up to a 1333Mhz FSB and come in up to 3Ghz too if the rumourmill is to be believed.

THAT + Lepoard is what I'm "striving hard" to hold out for :D Oh yeah, I hope they put the 7900 Go in there, and that will be SuperMac.

Approximately what is a 3 GHZ Conroe in Pentium 4 terms? :D 5 GHZ?

firsttube
Apr 20, 2006, 07:21 AM
Well this just changed my plans.... Anyone want to buy an almost new 20" iMac intel???


Why don't you just swap out your Core Duo chip for a better one?


phil

Stella
Apr 20, 2006, 07:22 AM
You make it sound like a bad thing. But it's a brilliant thing - all it means is that computers are getting better, faster.

This also meant a top of the line Mac wasn't equal to the top of the line PC, referring to the G4.

Multimedia
Apr 20, 2006, 07:32 AM
Like I said time and again, best to wait it out and get a Rev B or Rev C MacBook Pro.Right on Bern. This is the only way to avoid a lot of headaches. It would have to be a 17" Merom, ExpressCard/54 and FW800 and/or an external SATA port before they could get a rise out of me. Don't see how that could be before Rev B if not C. It's still a case of processor LAG. We're still waiting for 64-bit mobiles after all these years. Amazing how long it takes for a concept to become a reality in this business. :rolleyes: :eek: ;)

Dont Hurt Me
Apr 20, 2006, 07:34 AM
Schweeet. This might mean I will be able to retire my PM G4 MDD as a mail/file server around September. I just hope they don't change the casing of the PM. I like the clean design. Since the new PM most likely will come with PhotoBooth, I wonder if that means we will see a new cinema display line with integrated iSight.They allready released the Intel version of Powermac to developers,intel version iMac & Mini I would expect a new design from apple rather then just throwing the developers edition on the market with a real video card. If you think about it Apple hasnt released a all new model in quite some time. Expect an all new Powermac this summer.

pincho
Apr 20, 2006, 07:38 AM
this is awesome news, but honestly, i dnt think people should start returning their iMacs/MacBook Pros because of Conroe and Merom. Seriously, i'm pretty sure these machines are plenty powerful for most users, and for those who it isn't, well theres the PowerMac, there will always be something 25% better down the track. Good to hear of the Intel transition going better than expected though :)

Surreal
Apr 20, 2006, 07:38 AM
no one has pointed out that there is the possibility of the most beautiful moment in apple laptop history could be within our grasp.

if apple announces a 17" MBP with merom at NAB the tears would flow like rivers.

Multimedia
Apr 20, 2006, 07:40 AM
its nice that in theory you can upgrade a mac mini etc with a Merom

I am looking to upgrade my powermac early 2007 and i am hoping for conroe or maybe woodcrest in that.

but a 17" MBP with Merom might be niceNo. You're looking at Kentsfield Quads and Octs In A Year. Conroe and Woodcrests will be old news slow by early 2007. ;)

Multimedia
Apr 20, 2006, 07:55 AM
They allready released the Intel version of Powermac to developers,intel version iMac & Mini I would expect a new design from apple rather then just throwing the developers edition on the market with a real video card. If you think about it Apple hasnt released a all new model in quite some time. Expect an all new Powermac this summer.Believe me when I say "The Quad PM G5 Is All New". I can't think of anything that's "old" about it. Waiting for an expensive Rev A Woodcrest when you can have a 10 GHz Quad G5 now for only $3k is almost absurd to my way of thinking - especially when you consider that the entire Adobe CS3 Universal Suite won't be out until the 8 core Kentsfields come out next year.

I made the leap to Quad in early February and I have to tell you all that the Quad will change your life. The current Quad is the way to make it to the 8 core dual Kentsfields that are certainly coming out next year. This is my recommendation to anyone who needs real power NOW. I think there is little point in waiting 6 more months for the first Rev A Quad Intels when the Oct Intels are only about 12 months away from NOW. :D

alfismoney
Apr 20, 2006, 08:01 AM
there is a very good reason for a)intel releasing chips early and b)people rating this post with negatives.

the 'core' chips had 34 errors reported in their processing architecture within four weeks of launch. this is very, very bad, and will probably never be able to be improved on now that they are shipping. while intel was obviously unable to fix these errors before release, i am sure they want to bump the product off the shelves before consumers remember the 'pentium can't do math' problem that was all over the headlines about 15 years ago. bumping up chip releases is _very_ good for intel.

of course, if intel didn't manage to work out the kinks in the 'core' architecture when they had nothing on the market, accelerating new product development now can only mean they're not testing chips as well as they should be. unless there's a dumb stroke of luck, i would guess some of those negative ratings are due to people not wanting to buy another 'beta' chip for marked up prices. 34 errors could be nothing compared to what new, increasingly defective chips hold in store...

i, however, am hoping that merom will reach some form of 13" mac laptop before my tibook kicks the bucket (and boy is it close). thanks intel for being able to push out something when i desperately need it!

angelwatt
Apr 20, 2006, 08:06 AM
Hmm, indeed I wonder if the woodcrest is made from real wood, or that horrible fabricated stuff. :D

generik
Apr 20, 2006, 08:10 AM
I made the leap to Quad in early February and I have to tell you all that the Quad will change your life. The current Quad is the way to make it to the 8 core dual Kentsfields that are certainly coming out next year. This is my recommendation to anyone who needs real power NOW. I think there is little point in waiting 6 more months for the first Rev A Quad Intels when the Oct Intels are only about 12 months away from NOW. :D

Jesus will change your life.

A good investment plan can make a difference in your life.

A G5 Quad? Obsolete computer running obsolete code, and if it truly changes your life... then it is really sad :o

Multimedia
Apr 20, 2006, 08:24 AM
A G5 Quad? Obsolete computer running obsolete code, and if it truly changes your life... then it is really sad :oTry recording HDTV, encoding HDTV recordings to DVD images, transcoding DVD images to archivable mp4 files while still being able to edit audio and video, write and post here as well as get mail and surf the web on anything less than a Quad and you will quickly see how pathetically slow all other Macs really are.

You want to live in the future with less than a Quad now, fine. But don't pretend that work getting done on a Quad now, that cant' be done simultaneously on anything less, is somehow "obsolete". Just two of those processes listed above use 3.25 of the 4 processors. If you have no experience with a Quad and don't need the power it delivers - very quietly I might add - then you have no idea why those of us who have one are delighted and glad. :)

It has truly changed my life and it is wonderful not sad.

AidenShaw
Apr 20, 2006, 08:26 AM
the 'core' chips had 34 errors reported in their processing architecture within four weeks of launch. this is very, very bad, and will probably never be able to be improved on now that they are shipping.
You don't know what you're talking about....

To wit:

http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=13478

By scblock (3.00) on 2006-01-29 07:01:22 UTC

Some of my mac using friends (I am a mac user as well) want to hate on Intel for some reason, and are severely against Apple's recent addition of Intel based machines to their lineup.

They posted the article about the OMG BUGS IN CORE DUO in our IRC channel and went on and on about how lazy Intel's designers must be. I went out to Freescale's website and grabbed the latest errata sheet for the processor in my Powerbook, and then went to IBM's site and grabbed the latest errata sheets for the G5s in their G5 machines. The latest PowerPC 970 had bugs in the high 20s, and the Freescale 7455 chip has, I think, 42 bugs currently, even though it has been out for years.

The long and short of the story matches up with the original article. Processors have bugs, and us they generally won't affect anyone except low-level coders such as kernel developers. This is much ado about nothing.

alfismoney
Apr 20, 2006, 08:46 AM
You don't know what you're talking about....

To wit:

http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=13478

i'm not saying that every chip on the market is supposed to be bug free or that the core is bad for having errors, my point is that intel isn't about to sit on its laurels and let what is essentially a public beta chip sit at the head of its platform for longer than it has to. unlike ibm, intel and amd are constantly replacing their processors with newer (and hopefully better) technology. hence the G5 never appearing as a low power mobile unit and revisions of the G4 still shipping in quantity after 7 years.

my guess is that intel is ramping up production because they're unhappy with what they're shipping today, whether it's due to architecture problems or the fact that it was forced to fall back on a 32 bit solution is something i can't answer. i was simply speculating that people might be rating the post as negative because they are cutting down on their test time and might have a large bug count on the final products. personally, i think pushing up the release is a good thing.

MovieCutter
Apr 20, 2006, 09:03 AM
Believe me when I say "The Quad PM G5 Is All New". I can't think of anything that's "old" about it. Waiting for an expensive Rev A Woodcrest when you can have a 10 GHz Quad G5 now for only $3k is almost absurd to my way of thinking - especially when you consider that the entire Adobe CS3 Universal Suite won't be out until the 8 core Kentsfields come out next year.

I made the leap to Quad in early February and I have to tell you all that the Quad will change your life. The current Quad is the way to make it to the 8 core dual Kentsfields that are certainly coming out next year. This is my recommendation to anyone who needs real power NOW. I think there is little point in waiting 6 more months for the first Rev A Quad Intels when the Oct Intels are only about 12 months away from NOW. :D

Yeah...the Quad changed my life...then the MBP changed my life more...so I sold the Quad...as an atheist, I don't subscribe to Jesus :cool: . When I discovered that iPhoto, Safari, iWeb and a bunch of other apps actually were faster and snappier...and Final Cut Studio apps ran ALMOST as fast as on my Quad (with the exception of iPod video encoding which I don't much of anyway) I decided having a $5000 machine sitting under my desk to play video games was a waste...so out it went. I don't miss it actually, the only thing I DO miss about it is having a "home base" of stuff, but with my 8x500GB external drives, my MBP makes a nice temporary desktop replacement. BRING ON THE MAC PRO!!!

QPlot
Apr 20, 2006, 09:05 AM
Hmm, indeed I wonder if the woodcrest is made from real wood, or that horrible fabricated stuff. :D
That'll rock the temperature to 8000K? :eek:

themacman
Apr 20, 2006, 09:08 AM
Do they have any idea of the performance of conroe vs. dual core g5?

azzurri000
Apr 20, 2006, 09:16 AM
I hope Leopard and these new procs are ready together... that would just be perfect. I'm glad they didn't say that they would ready in October... much better for students. I know I would be pretty angry if my machine was revised only a month after its purchase.

AidenShaw
Apr 20, 2006, 09:17 AM
i'm not saying that every chip on the market is supposed to be bug free or that the core is bad for having errors, my point is that intel isn't about to sit on its laurels and let what is essentially a public beta chip sit at the head of its platform for longer than it has to. unlike ibm, intel and amd are constantly replacing their processors with newer (and hopefully better) technology. hence the G5 never appearing as a low power mobile unit and revisions of the G4 still shipping in quantity after 7 years.
If Intel fixes the problems, it becomes a different chip - so in essence your statement that they won't fix the existing chip is true - even if they fixed it!

My point is that "errata" are common, and is a standard way of dealing with minor, trivial flaws in microprocessors. IBM does it, Moto/Freescale does it, AMD does it, everybody does it.

One would never go back and make a new pass of silicon if a couple of lines of BIOS/EFI or HAL code can ensure that the erroneous situation cannot occur.

my guess is that intel is ramping up production because they're unhappy with what they're shipping today, whether it's due to architecture problems or the fact that it was forced to fall back on a 32 bit solution...
What architecture problems? There are a few errata.

Apple is the one that "fell back" to a 32-bit solution, not Intel.

Like many big companies, Intel has multiple teams developing products in parallel. The Yonah project was a relatively modest enhancement to the Pentium M line (add dual core, SSE3, minor bumps).

Merom/Conroe/Woodcrest are part of the much more ambitious Next Generation Architecture project. It's been under development for several years (note this March 2004 article http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/03/17/intel_plots_4mb_l2_64bit/).

Look at Yonah as an "insurance policy" - had NGMA slipped, Intel would still be able to ship a dual-core chip in the notebook space in the interim. (A fairly cheap insurance policy, especially since Merom chips can be used in existing Yonah motherboards!)

...because they are cutting down on their test time and might have a large bug count on the final products. personally, i think pushing up the release is a good thing.
Even though that "large bug count" is 3/4 of the number of bugs in the PPC chip in the iBook G4 ???

The point of testing is to find and document the errata, not to continue to go back to the silicon drawing board and try to make a perfect chip. You only do that when an erratum is so serious that it cannot be worked around in low-level software (the Pentium FP bug being a good example of that).

Moving up the release is a good thing because it will get 64-bit dual-core laptops and low-power desktops here sooner. It's a good thing (for Intel) because it will give them an advantage over AMD. (I wonder what Sun's next marketing campaign will be, once Intel chips are faster and lower power than AMD. Ooops!)

Moving up the release because of a few errata is not an issue - because who's to say that Merom won't have *more* errata?

Peace
Apr 20, 2006, 09:18 AM
Intel iMac owners could,if they wanted to be adventurous,put a Merom CPU in their iMacs ;)

Shadows
Apr 20, 2006, 09:23 AM
that really sounds delicious but unfortunately i'm not a leet haXor.

Apple techs too fast, but i that's surely for the greater good.

I guess i've decided to stick to my intel core duo imac

i can always get another mac :)

APPLE FOREVER!!!!

ready2switch
Apr 20, 2006, 09:26 AM
OK, yeah, that's cool if you have the money to spend...but for the rest of use, it means Mac machine will depreciate quicker and we will have to replace the whole machine to keep up (if you need the speed). In the PC world where professionals (and gamers) rely on the fastest machines they can get their hands on, they can upgrade their machines by swapping out the motherboard and replacing the chip. Their machines have a longer shelf life due to upgradablity. In the Intel Mac world, we might be stuck with something that is "old" within 6 months unless Apple lets us replace the motherboard and chip. Having said that, one of the reasons previous Macs have held their value so well it that they were slow on generational releases. A two year old G5 is still a pretty darn good machine, but the switch to Intel is going to change that. PC's on the other hand, are practically worthless for resale if you keep them more than a year. Most PC builders run their machines into the dust, but they can get at least 3 or 4 life cycles via upgrading components before they need to start over.

I find it funny when people assume Apple will upgrade and release new machines every few months. True Intel does upgrade their components faster than Apple has in the past, but going 2-3-4 years with NO upgrades will leave a company behind, especially in the business of technology. I think you have to step back from this year and not count it as "average". BIG changes are being made, and they are being made fast. I think once the Intel transition is over we will see a more moderate timeline for upgrades. Less than 2 years, but more than 6 months. Even though bigger and better may come out, Apple has the inside scoop on Intel, and will know when to upgrade and when to let it fall to the side.

Multimedia
Apr 20, 2006, 09:27 AM
Yeah...the Quad changed my life...then the MBP changed my life more...so I sold the Quad...as an atheist, I don't subscribe to Jesus :cool: . When I discovered that iPhoto, Safari, iWeb and a bunch of other apps actually were faster and snappier...and Final Cut Studio apps ran ALMOST as fast as on my Quad (with the exception of iPod video encoding which I don't much of anyway) I decided having a $5000 machine sitting under my desk to play video games was a waste...so out it went. I don't miss it actually, the only thing I DO miss about it is having a "home base" of stuff, but with my 8x500GB external drives, my MBP makes a nice temporary desktop replacement. BRING ON THE MAC PRO!!!That's great to know. I guess you don't miss looking at a pair of 1920 x 1200 monitors. I am doing iPod mp4 encoding every few hours so my needs are completely different than yours. And I didn't pay $5k for this Quad either. I would way rather split up chores among 4 cores than 2 no matter what small speed advantage there might be running Safari & iLife apps - which I don't use much at all. I use Firefox a lot of the time anyway.

For long term insurance, I would rather wait for Merom inside a 17" mobile MacIntel. My pokey 15" PB G4 is ok for the time being. Glad to hear you're successfully booking on the 15" MBP. Not enough screen space for me in the first place. :)

Except the fact that it's hooked up to my formerly-paired-with-Quad 30" Cinema Display :cool: I paid $3k for my Quad as well...it was WORTH $5k (in its configuration), which is what I sold it for...he he he.:eek: Way to go on the resale. That 30" must rock. That's still not wide enough for me. I'm looking at 3520 wide by 1200 high. Like I said b4, need 4 cores. But congrats. I'm really happy for you. You are our Alpha site for Quad to MBP FCS migration.

One more question: How can you run that all in only 2 GB of RAM? I have 6 and think it might not be enough. :confused:

milo
Apr 20, 2006, 09:31 AM
its nice that in theory you can upgrade a mac mini etc with a Merom

It's not just a theory. Somebody already got their hands on an early Merom and confirmed that it runs in the mini.

OK, yeah, that's cool if you have the money to spend...but for the rest of use, it means Mac machine will depreciate quicker and we will have to replace the whole machine to keep up (if you need the speed). In the PC world where professionals (and gamers) rely on the fastest machines they can get their hands on, they can upgrade their machines by swapping out the motherboard and replacing the chip. Their machines have a longer shelf life due to upgradablity. In the Intel Mac world, we might be stuck with something that is "old" within 6 months unless Apple lets us replace the motherboard and chip. Having said that, one of the reasons previous Macs have held their value so well it that they were slow on generational releases. A two year old G5 is still a pretty darn good machine, but the switch to Intel is going to change that. PC's on the other hand, are practically worthless for resale if you keep them more than a year. Most PC builders run their machines into the dust, but they can get at least 3 or 4 life cycles via upgrading components before they need to start over.

All computers depreciate extremely quickly, you should buy based on what it can let you get done, not what it will be worth in a few months. Best to just assume that once you buy a machine it's worth practically nothing.

With the imac and the mini, you CAN replace the chip. It's nice to be on the same ground as the PC for a change.

The switch to intel will make no difference in whether a two year old machine is good or not. That machine may be further from the latest release, but it will still run very well and do what you bought it for. At this point 2 year old G5's are being challenged in performance by intel macs that are much cheaper.

It would have to be a 17" Merom, ExpressCard/54 and FW800 and/or an external SATA port before they could get a rise out of me.

FW800? I'll bet we NEVER see it in an apple laptop again. What other laptops include it?

Believe me when I say "The Quad PM G5 Is All New". I can't think of anything that's "old" about it. Waiting for an expensive Rev A Woodcrest when you can have a 10 GHz Quad G5 now for only $3k is almost absurd to my way of thinking - especially when you consider that the entire Adobe CS3 Universal Suite won't be out until the 8 core Kentsfields come out next year.

The only real downside is that there are still apps that ignore the third and fourth processors, such as Logic.

Dr.Gargoyle
Apr 20, 2006, 09:33 AM
They allready released the Intel version of Powermac to developers,intel version iMac & Mini I would expect a new design from apple rather then just throwing the developers edition on the market with a real video card. If you think about it Apple hasnt released a all new model in quite some time. Expect an all new Powermac this summer.
Hmm, you might be correct. However, Apple has so far not made any design changes in the macs that have made the PPC->x86 transition. (I don't see the design difference between PB and MBP) But then again, the casing of the PM hasn't changed in a while.

MovieCutter
Apr 20, 2006, 09:39 AM
That's great to know. I guess you don't miss looking at a pair of 1920 x 1200 monitors. I am doing iPod mp4 encoding every few hours so my needs are completely different than yours. And I didn't pay $5k for this Quad either. I would way rather split up chores among 4 cores than 2 no matter what small speed advantage there might be running Safari & iLife apps - which I don't use much at all. I use Firefox a lot of the time anyway.

For long term insurance, I would rather wait for Merom inside a 17" mobile MacIntel. My pokey 15" PB G4 is ok for the time being. Glad to hear you're successfully booking on the 15" MBP. Not enough screen space for me in the first place. :)

Except the fact that it's hooked up to my formerly-paired-with-Quad 30" Cinema Display :cool: I paid $3k for my Quad as well...it was WORTH $5k (in its configuration), which is what I sold it for...he he he.

jaxstate
Apr 20, 2006, 09:43 AM
I don't think apple is going to make it easy for people to swap out chips. They want you to upgrade as often as possible. Remember they are a hardware company, and letting people upgrade chips would most def. cut into their sales.:cool:

alfismoney
Apr 20, 2006, 09:48 AM
Moving up the release because of a few errata is not an issue - because who's to say that Merom won't have *more* errata?

so true. thanks for outlining the argument a bit more thoroughly, it's nice to have someone respond intelligently to my ponderings with some good points to back it up. seeing 40 posts about why it would be really cool to have woodcrest processors carved into a piece of maple or playing games on an 8 core powermac just doesn't seem that relevant to a discussion about intel pushing their release sooner.

i would imagine that intel only pushed the release because they feel that they have adequately developed and documented what we are about to see on the market. not being a developer, i am certainly excited to see the merom push the core duo to the side so that whatever laptop i happen to buy will use less power and inspire Apple to start taking advantage of 64 bit chips with its pro software.

dr_lha
Apr 20, 2006, 09:48 AM
I don't think apple is going to make it easy for people to swap out chips. They want you to upgrade as often as possible. Remember they are a hardware company, and letting people upgrade chips would most def. cut into their sales.:cool:
99.9% of computer users wouldn't be comfortable swapping out a chip even if it was "easy", most people just buy a new computer if their old one is slow.

That said Apple do tend to make their computers (at least the new iMac) totally impossible to get open, making replacing the CPU extremely difficult.

lightsout
Apr 20, 2006, 09:50 AM
That's tosh if ever I read it. AMD can't even afford to fully transition their fabs right now to the latest process. By the time they do (get to 65nm) Intel will be looking at 45nm

Potentially this could be talking about the AM2 platform, whenever that comes out. Unlike the current generation though AMD may not beat Intel (and conroe) in the high performance stakes this time round, or it will be close.

I think Intel just want to get something new out sooner to help with sales.

There is more to this than which process you are using. AMD holds the performance lead, and is taking market share from Intel. This is especially true in the enterprise env which commands a much larger margin.

Did you not see AMD's results? They are making money, I'm sure they can afford to move to 65nm (they will have to anyway to stay competitive, even if it costs them money).

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/04/12/amd_q1/

AMD will go 65nm this year. Intel is shipping 65nm, but not all of their fabs are converted either.

Conroe should get Intel onto performance terms with AMD at least. You have to consider, that it isn't out yet so AMD still holds the performance crown. Even more so in SMP systems, as AMD's architecture here is better.

Stella
Apr 20, 2006, 09:52 AM
Hmm, you might be correct. However, Apple has so far not made any design changes in the macs that have made the PPC->x86 transition. (I don't see the design difference between PB and MBP) But then again, the casing of the PM hasn't changed in a while.

I get the feeling the initial batch of Intel Macs were interim - get them in the current Mac housings. Later, complete the designs for the new Intel's. This is similar to what they did with the PPC transitions, isn't it? The first PPC machines looked like the predecessors, and then Apple made the cosmetic changes not too far down the road.

Multimedia
Apr 20, 2006, 09:56 AM
It's not just a theory. Somebody already got their hands on an early Merom and confirmed that it runs in the mini.

All computers depreciate extremely quickly, you should buy based on what it can let you get done, not what it will be worth in a few months. Best to just assume that once you buy a machine it's worth practically nothing.I bought a new Dual 2.5 last June for $1999. I sold it in February for $2500. I bought the Quad with two 1GB sticks inside for $3000 including sales tax. I added four 1GB sticks for $300. My Dual 2.5 G5 was hardly "worth practically nothing" after 8 months of ownership, two entire line upgrades and 3 months after the Quad was shipping. In fact it was worth MORE than when I bought it.

With the imac and the mini, you CAN replace the chip. It's nice to be on the same ground as the PC for a change.

The switch to intel will make no difference in whether a two year old machine is good or not. That machine may be further from the latest release, but it will still run very well and do what you bought it for. At this point 2 year old G5's are being challenged in performance by intel macs that are much cheaper.Not the Quad. Quads are not much more "expensive" than any MacIntel out there so far.

FW800? I'll bet we NEVER see it in an apple laptop again. What other laptops include it?
There are those of us who have external FW 800 enclosures with 300-500 GB HDs inside. The Expresscard/54 slot will give us two FW800 slots in an expansion card. But Apple could easily use the FW800 chip instead of the FW400 chip and provide a FW400 adapter for the FW800 port for only a few dollars or pennies more. So it is not out of the question.

The only real downside is that there are still apps that ignore the third and fourth processors, such as Logic.Yes but the OS, and especially Leopard next year, will help distribute more across all 4 or 8 cores. And even if the app can only use two cores, that leaves two more for other work to get done. I guess I'm a multitasking whore. :D :eek: ;) :p

MovieCutter
Apr 20, 2006, 10:10 AM
I bought a new Dual 2.5 last June for $1999. I sold it in February for $2500. I bought the Quad with two 1GB sticks inside for $3000 including sales tax. I added four 1GB sticks for $300. My Dual 2.5 G5 was hardly "worth practically nothing" after 8 months of ownership, two entire line upgrades and 3 months after the Quad was shipping. In fact it was worth MORE than when I bought it.


I had a similar situation, bought a loaded Dual 2.5Ghz (400GBHD, 6800, etc.) for around $2500...put a little extra RAM I picked up cheap, sold for $3800 almost a year later. Bought a Dual 2.7 with a 6800Ultra for $1900 to hold me over while i waited for my Quad, popped in some extra RAM I had lying around, sold for $3200. Bought my Quad with 500GBHD, 7800GT, 1GB RAM+extra 4GB I put in myself for around $3300, sold it for $5k. No drop in value on this end...Now I'm just waiting for the fabled Mac Pro tower...

Dr.Gargoyle
Apr 20, 2006, 10:10 AM
I get the feeling the initial batch of Intel Macs were interim - get them in the current Mac housings. Later, complete the designs for the new Intel's. This is similar to what they did with the PPC transitions, isn't it? The first PPC machines looked like the predecessors, and then Apple made the cosmetic changes not too far down the road.
I don't remember if Apple kept their original design through and after 68xxx->PPC. I doubt they will change the Mini Mac or the iMac design any time soon, since both designs are rather new. Apple tend to keep their designs fairly stable over many years. Just look at the iPod. The basic design hasn't changed in 5 generations. We see minor changes as in the case with PB -> MBP and iMac -> Frontrow iMac, but not a total remake.
Nevertheless, we might see some new designs soon. I just hope they don't botch the job. I must admit that I still prefer the "globe" iMac over the current "pizza carton" iMac, even though the latter is growing on me.

alfismoney
Apr 20, 2006, 10:22 AM
99.9% of computer users wouldn't be comfortable swapping out a chip...

yeah, but us 0.1% who would like to swap out the chip in their laptop are definitely jealous of the mac mini and imac owners who at least have the option of doing so. just cracking open the case on my tibook and finding the internal plastic frame broken in several places left little doubt in my mind that apple doesn't want customers who self service to buy their machines

smooth operator
Apr 20, 2006, 10:26 AM
Bought my Quad with 500GBHD, 7800GT, 1GB RAM+extra 4GB I put in myself for around $3300, sold it for $5k.

How the heck do you buy a quad with those specs at that price...AND THEN sell it for 5k??? Ebay?

ImAlwaysRight
Apr 20, 2006, 10:27 AM
Yeah...the Quad changed my life...then the MBP changed my life more...so I sold the Quad...as an atheist, I don't subscribe to Jesus :cool: . When I discovered that iPhoto, Safari, iWeb and a bunch of other apps actually were faster and snappier...and Final Cut Studio apps ran ALMOST as fast as on my Quad (with the exception of iPod video encoding which I don't much of anyway) I decided having a $5000 machine sitting under my desk to play video games was a waste...so out it went. I don't miss it actually, the only thing I DO miss about it is having a "home base" of stuff, but with my 8x500GB external drives, my MBP makes a nice temporary desktop replacement. BRING ON THE MAC PRO!!!

That's great to know. I guess you don't miss looking at a pair of 1920 x 1200 monitors. I am doing iPod mp4 encoding every few hours so my needs are completely different than yours. And I didn't pay $5k for this Quad either. I would way rather split up chores among 4 cores than 2 no matter what small speed advantage there might be running Safari & iLife apps - which I don't use much at all. I use Firefox a lot of the time anyway.

For long term insurance, I would rather wait for Merom inside a 17" mobile MacIntel. My pokey 15" PB G4 is ok for the time being. Glad to hear you're successfully booking on the 15" MBP. Not enough screen space for me in the first place. :)

:eek: Way to go on the resale. That 30" must rock. That's still not wide enough for me. I'm looking at 3520 wide by 1200 high. Like I said b4, need 4 cores. But congrats. I'm really happy for you. You are our Alpha site for Quad to MBP FCS migration.

One more question: How can you run that all in only 2 GB of RAM? I have 6 and think it might not be enough. :confused:

Oh yeah, well ... uh ... well ... my daddy can piss farther than your daddy! :p

Dr.Gargoyle
Apr 20, 2006, 10:28 AM
I had a similar situation, bought a loaded Dual 2.5Ghz (400GBHD, 6800, etc.) for around $2500...put a little extra RAM I picked up cheap, sold for $3800 almost a year later. Bought a Dual 2.7 with a 6800Ultra for $1900 to hold me over while i waited for my Quad, popped in some extra RAM I had lying around, sold for $3200. Bought my Quad with 500GBHD, 7800GT, 1GB RAM+extra 4GB I put in myself for around $3300, sold it for $5k. No drop in value on this end...Now I'm just waiting for the fabled Mac Pro tower...
Ok, I am lost. Why would anyone buy a used computer for the same money you can get a spanking new one???:confused: Especially since most of these high-end computers (hopefully) are use by professionals, meaning you either have someone to pay it for you or you have some kind of business. Either way, you need a receipt to report to superior or deduct business expenses when you do your taxes.
I can't possibly understand someone paying the same money for a used computer. Especially if you use it professionally and need reliability/support since your pay check is proportional to how well the computer performs. :confused:
Have I missed something?

shen
Apr 20, 2006, 10:28 AM
99.9% of computer users wouldn't be comfortable swapping out a chip even if it was "easy", most people just buy a new computer if their old one is slow.

half of the windows users buy a new computer when they have spyware, because it is easier to buy new than clean the software out or even reinstall. trust me, i see it all the time.

everyone talks about how you can just buy a new mother board and chip and have a new computer. "oh look how much easier it is to upgrade a windows machine than a Mac!"

the ppl i know who actually do tis are about 5% of the ppl i know who own computers, and they both run linux. :p

itguy06
Apr 20, 2006, 10:28 AM
Moving up the release is a good thing because it will get 64-bit dual-core laptops and low-power desktops here sooner. It's a good thing (for Intel) because it will give them an advantage over AMD. (I wonder what Sun's next marketing campaign will be, once Intel chips are faster and lower power than AMD. Ooops!)

Tha's ASSuming Intel will use power and have higher performance in the shipping silicon. And ASSuming AMD stays right where they are today.

Your'e forgetting that Intel has not had anything really competitive since the Athlon came out - P4 is a joke, Itanic is a flop, and the Core really offers little gains compared to AMD.

AMD has been increasing market and mindshare lots in recent years while puttingout superior products. It's refresing seeing the best starting to win in the market.

Now if Apple would just follow suit (and go AMD), all will be great! :)

twoodcc
Apr 20, 2006, 10:30 AM
Conroe cannot run in a dual-socket configuration, so a Conroe-based system is limited to two cores. Not really a replacement path for the quad PMG5.

Woodcrest will do dual-socket (4 cores total), but Intel has always priced their Xeon-class CPUs and chipsets at a premium.

Aiden's prediction is:


Conroe - new dual-core small mini-tower form factor ("PowerMac"), more RAM capacity (8 GiB), PCIe x16 graphics card (user-upgradeable), 3.5" SATA disk (up to 500 GB), room for second HD or second optical. Fills huge product gap between the MiniMacIntel and the PowerMac G5 maxi-tower.
Woodcrest - maxi-tower replacement for the PMG5 ("PowerMac Pro"). Dual-socket (4 cores), 16-32 GiB RAM, more disks than PMG5, $500 price increase from PMG5


i sure hope that your predictions become a reality :) i'd buy the mini-tower. i can't afford the quad now as it is

MovieCutter
Apr 20, 2006, 10:33 AM
Ok, I am lost. Why would anyone buy a used computer for the same money you can get a spanking new one???:confused: Especially since most of these high-end computers (hopefully) are use by professionals, meaning you either have someone to pay it for you or you have some kind of business. Either way, you need a receipt to report to superior or deduct business expenses when you do your taxes.
I can't possibly understand someone paying the same money for a used computer. Especially if you use it professionally and need reliability/support since your pay check is proportional to how well the computer performs. :confused:
Have I missed something?

The eBay factor. People often overpay on eBay.

How the heck do you buy a quad with those specs at that price...AND THEN sell it for 5k??? Ebay?

I have friends in high places...

Oh yeah, well ... uh ... well ... my daddy can piss farther than your daddy! :p

I can never turn down a friendly pissing contest...

YoNeX
Apr 20, 2006, 10:36 AM
I'm still holding out on the notebook. I can wait till September, but by then I will have to get a notebook. Lugging around a desktop just sucks. Hopefully the 2nd generation MBP and 2nd generation core duos have been released so most of the problems have been fixed. Now how much I'm going to spend is questionable.

On another side note, I will soon be working on stuff at the kernel level and in assembly language, having problems with the hardware is going to be annoying and frustrating. Hopefully, there won't be the whole fiasco with the Intel chips error again.

To those whining about the upgrades, its inevitable. Technology moving forward, of course the last purchase you made will generally be not as fast when compared to the new ones. Its common sense. If you can't stand it, simply have a lot of money and have the guts to keep upgrading at each step. Otherwise, just be happy with what you got. Don't be so spoiled that you MUST have the bleeding edge technology whenever it comes out.

And for the record, changing out the processor is generally not that hard. If I had the choice between changing the processor myself on a Mac Mini or having someone do it for $40, I probably would have them do, simply because it is annoying to get in there. I'm fully capable of doing it, but if we're talking about need to be supercareful and get in there, I'm not that fully comfortable yet.

Multimedia
Apr 20, 2006, 10:38 AM
Ok, I am lost. Why would anyone buy a used computer for the same money you can get a spanking new one???:confused: Especially since most of these high-end computers (hopefully) are use by professionals, meaning you either have someone to pay it for you or you have some kind of business. Either way, you need a receipt to report to superior or deduct business expenses when you do your taxes.
I can't possibly understand someone paying the same money for a used computer. Especially if you use it professionally and need reliability/support since your pay check is proportional to how well the computer performs. :confused:
Have I missed something?What you missed is that we resell them loaded with more RAM and HDs than stock. What you missed is that some buyers are only looking for used instead of checking what new ones sell for. What you missed is that if you are an aggressive reseller, you can usually find someone to give you more than or equal to what you paid for it to begin with. The other thing you missed is that MovieCutter and I are damn lucky. :p :D ;) :eek:

And no someone else didn't pay for it and my business is not profitable. I am just an eXtreme Mac Fanatic - owner of two and more since February 1984 - with high power needs to deal with HD broadcast television recordings and archiving management - sort of like TIVO on steroids only legal.

Dr.Gargoyle
Apr 20, 2006, 10:41 AM
The eBay factor. People often overpay on eBay.
:confused: So you are telling me that professionals lurk around eBay paying premium dollars for used computers??? :confused: :eek:
Well, I guess there is one born every second...

iris_failsafe
Apr 20, 2006, 10:42 AM
POwer macs replacement shoould come with Woodcrest, anything else would be a downgrade from the G5

Multimedia
Apr 20, 2006, 10:49 AM
:confused: So you are telling me that professionals lurk around eBay paying premium dollars for used computers??? :confused: :eek:
Well, I guess there is one born every second...I found my buyer on a newsgroup list of Macintosh Final Cut Studio users, not eBay. And yes, they are born every minute or so. :D

JK. Note that the dual 2.5 and later the dual 2.7 were replaced by dual 2 and dual 2.3 PMs. So we did NOT get more than they are worth. However, I think anyone who buys less than a Quad at this point is really not in touch with reality and will live to regret it shortly thereafter. No kidding - except MovieCutter of course. :D :eek:

O and A
Apr 20, 2006, 10:55 AM
Isn't it MEMRON? not MERMON?

Dr.Gargoyle
Apr 20, 2006, 10:56 AM
What you missed is that we resell them loaded with more RAM and HDs than stock. Things you can get cheap at e.g. crucial
What you missed is that if you are an aggressive reseller, you can usually find someone to give you more than or equal to what you paid for it to begin with. I don't doubt that there are many ill-informed idiots out there. What surprises me is that you can sell it on eBay to (hopefully) professionals at premium prices considering the need for receipts from my previous post. Moreover, most professionals should know, or at least have some vague idea, how much their worktool cost. If the buyer is happy nerd...$5k without checking how much it is new???? Ok, stupidity has no limits, but really...?

The other thing you missed is that MovieCutter and I are damn lucky. :p :D ;) :eek:
Fair enough... However, I fail to see how that relates to my question.
And no someone else didn't pay for it and my business is not profitable. I am just an extreme Mac Fanatic with high power needs to deal with HD broadcast television recordings and archiving management - sort of like TIVO on steroids only legal.
Even though your business isn't profitable, you must make some money (i.e. have some sort of income) right?? If that is the case, you will be able to deduct the cost for the computer when you do your taxes.

Sorry to say it, but I am still flabbergasted.

milo
Apr 20, 2006, 10:57 AM
Not the Quad. Quads are not much more "expensive" than any MacIntel out there so far.

How could a two year old mac be a quad? The quads were just released last year.

I do agree that the quad is the only G5 worth buying today.

And there are stupid people who overpay for used G5's. You think switching to intel will suddenly make those people less stupid and likely to overpay?

anaknipedro
Apr 20, 2006, 10:58 AM
Why does everyone think the new Power Macs will be called Mac Pros? Judging by the current trend of Apple nomenclature, it's obvious to me that they will call it the macMac!

Bengt77
Apr 20, 2006, 11:03 AM
Isn't it MEMRON? not MERMON?
Huh? Is that a joke? It's Merom. You've got the Merom coming (quite an upgrade on the Yonah), the Conroe (which is the desktop version of the Merom) and then the Woodcrest (the workstation/server chip based on the new Core technology).

PS: Wasn't it Enron?!...

h?
Apr 20, 2006, 11:09 AM
If this is so, would it then be possible to substitute a core duo to Merom just by desoldering all of the pins in the MacBook Pro and then resoldering them??

Multimedia
Apr 20, 2006, 11:15 AM
Things you can get cheap at e.g. crucial
No. The Best and Cheapest RAM comes from Omni Technologies (http://www.omnitechnologies.biz/) via Ramseeker.com (http://ramseeker.com). Crucial ram is way overpriced.
I don't doubt that there are many ill-informed idiots out there. What surprises me is that you can sell it on eBay to (hopefully) professionals at premium prices considering the need for receipts from my previous post. Moreover, most professionals should know, or at least have some vague idea, how much their worktool cost. If the buyer is happy nerd...$5k without checking how much it is new???? Ok, stupidity has no limits, but really...?None whatsoever. :D

Fair enough... However, I fail to see how that relates to my question.Luck relates to all questions. ;)

Even though your business isn't profitable, you must make some money (i.e. have some sort of income) right?? If that is the case, you will be able to deduct the cost for the computer when you do your taxes.Not really, but you're getting into an area that is way too personal and none of your business. :o

Sorry to say it, but I am still flabbergasted.That's understandable. When I counted the $2500 cash I was equally flabergasted. :p

Needless to say, none of them hang out here. :)

ChinComSlot
Apr 20, 2006, 11:18 AM
so will the MacBook Pro go quad later in the year? or 64-bit?? what other potential new features may it have??

h?
Apr 20, 2006, 11:21 AM
If this is so, would it then be possible to substitute a core duo to Merom just by desoldering all of the pins in the MacBook Pro and then resoldering them??

MovieCutter
Apr 20, 2006, 11:22 AM
:cool: Things you can get cheap at e.g. crucial
I don't doubt that there are many ill-informed idiots out there. What surprises me is that you can sell it on eBay to (hopefully) professionals at premium prices considering the need for receipts from my previous post. Moreover, most professionals should know, or at least have some vague idea, how much their worktool cost. If the buyer is happy nerd...$5k without checking how much it is new???? Ok, stupidity has no limits, but really...?


Fair enough... However, I fail to see how that relates to my question.

Even though your business isn't profitable, you must make some money (i.e. have some sort of income) right?? If that is the case, you will be able to deduct the cost for the computer when you do your taxes.

Sorry to say it, but I am still flabbergasted.

I sold my Dual 2.5Ghz Power Mac to some rich parents buying it for their kid who didn't know any better, and who am I to educate them . I sold my Dual 2.7Ghz Power Mac on eBay to some guy who also apparantley didn't know any better. I sold my Quad which normally would have cost $5k including taxes to a graphics artist for a company, and his company is paying for it, and they don't know any better...and what does he care. So yes, what Multimedia said is true on many fronts...there is one born every second. Also I've been lucky to find buyers willing to pay what I've gotten for them, and my connections to get the cheap in the first place help as well.

Dr.Gargoyle
Apr 20, 2006, 11:23 AM
None whatsoever.
You just managed to lower my faith in mankind to an unprecedented all-time low.

Multimedia
Apr 20, 2006, 11:24 AM
so will the MacBook Pro go quad later in the year? or 64-bit?? what other potential new features may it have??I'm hoping without knowing anything MBP Quad by end of 2007. Other more immediate possible new features would be an external SATA port, Dual 160 GB Seagate 2.5" 7200 rpm HDs (total net 300GB inside) and a SuperMultiDrive - capable of burning HD-DVD and/or BlueRay plus all DL and single layer formats at top speeds. :)

Multimedia
Apr 20, 2006, 11:28 AM
If this is so, would it then be possible to substitute a core duo to Merom just by desoldering all of the pins in the MacBook Pro and then resoldering them??Sure. Anything is possible. "Just by doing that." Good Luck. ;) :rolleyes: :eek: Easy Peezy. How many pins would that be? :rolleyes:

You guys are killing me. I'm starting to roll on the floor with uncontrolable laughter. This reminds me of MacTruck's prank a few weeks ago. Native Windows running on his Quad. lol. :p

MovieCutter
Apr 20, 2006, 11:30 AM
No. The Best and Cheapest RAM comes from Omni Technologies (http://www.omnitechnologies.biz/) via Ramseeker.com (http://ramseeker.com). Crucial ram is way overpriced.

Amen to that


None whatsoever. :D

Very true


Luck relates to all questions. ;)

How very Buddhist of you ;)



Needless to say, none of them hang out here. :)

I've NEVER sold a machine on MacRumors because it's impossible to get more than the bottom line for it. I'm not saying members aren't in their right to lowball...but they makeup about 1% of the purchasing population, and they are the only category that "know" when new stuff is coming out and won't pay going rate for gear.

That being said, Multimedia, I fully intend to rejoin the ranks of Quad-goodness when Intel ones are announced. I rarely use Adobe Apps as I'm primarily on Final Cut Studio...looking forward to rejoining the club.

h?
Apr 20, 2006, 11:31 AM
Sure. Anything is possible. Good Luck. ;) :rolleyes: :eek: Easy Peezy. :p

But would the pins be the same so that i would make it easier or would it need criss crossing wires??

asencif
Apr 20, 2006, 11:37 AM
:cool:

I sold my Dual 2.5Ghz Power Mac to some rich parents buying it for their kid who didn't know any better, and who am I to educate them . I sold my Dual 2.7Ghz Power Mac on eBay to some guy who also apparantley didn't know any better. I sold my Quad which normally would have cost $5k including taxes to a graphics artist for a company, and his company is paying for it, and they don't know any better...and what does he care. So yes, what Multimedia said is true on many fronts...there is one born every second. Also I've been lucky to find buyers willing to pay what I've gotten for them, and my connections to get the cheap in the first place help as well.


Any tips on finding those cheap connections, so I can buy a G5 QUAD?

KindredMAC
Apr 20, 2006, 11:38 AM
Apple shouldn't even really bother with shipping the "Pro Mac" until CS 3 has been released. People that are buying Power Macs are pros. We use Adobe/Macromedia, Apple and whatever other HIGH END applications.

I bought my Power Mac G5 Dual 2.0 two months ago because I knew it would run my CS 2 and Studio 8 at NATIVE speeds. In last months Macworld they showed all of the Intel Macs released so far versus my Dual 2.0 G5. The numbers don't lie. Photoshop was a complete dog on all the Intel Macs and the PM G5 beat out all the others except for something funky like Zipping a file in the Finder (that was a weird one).

My prediction: When Adobe releases CS 3, we will not see any huge leap frogs of Intel over PPC. The current Power Macs will still out perform the current selections out there. Remember, Universal just means that it can run on both chips. It doesn't mean that it is optimized solely for Intel chipsets.

Multimedia
Apr 20, 2006, 11:39 AM
But would the pins be the same so that i would make it easier or would it need criss crossing wires??You're pulling our legs right? If not FORGETABOUTIT man. No way could you successfully do what you are asking about. :eek: NO WAY.

Multimedia
Apr 20, 2006, 11:44 AM
Any tips on finding those cheap connections, so I can buy a G5 QUAD?Apple Refurb Page Still Selling Quads For Only $2799. Have been since early February. Usually get bonus parts too. Mine came with two 1GB sticks instead of two 512MB sticks that it says they will. This is the best way to get a new one cheap. There is really no difference between an Apple refurb and a new one. Same warranty. Same Applecare. Same everything. Only a brown box instead of the fancy black one with the photos. :)

Multimedia
Apr 20, 2006, 11:48 AM
Apple shouldn't even really bother with shipping the "Pro Mac" until CS 3 has been released. People that are buying Power Macs are pros. We use Adobe/Macromedia, Apple and whatever other HIGH END applications.

My prediction: When Adobe releases CS 3, we will not see any huge leap frogs of Intel over PPC. The current Power Macs will still out perform the current selections out there. Remember, Universal just means that it can run on both chips. It doesn't mean that it is optimized solely for Intel chipsets.I would agree with you EXCEPT that by next Spring, when CS3 ships, an EIGHT CORE Dual Kentsfield desktop Mac will also be shipping with Leopard that will be a PPC Quad Killer. :eek: But Leopard will also give new life and a major boost to these first gen "old" PPC Quads as well.

Azrel
Apr 20, 2006, 11:54 AM
There is something sinister about your face Multimedia...

Cinch
Apr 20, 2006, 12:00 PM
I'm hoping without knowing anything MBP Quad by end of 2007. Other more immediate possible new features would be an external SATA port, Dual 160 GB Seagate 2.5" 7200 rpm HDs (total net 300GB inside) and a SuperMultiDrive - capable of burning HD-DVD and/or BlueRay plus all DL and single layer formats at top speeds. :)

How about a laptop that I can use all day, leaving the charger home just like my cell phone?

don't forget to include the parallel port for my zip drive:D

Just teasing.....

Cinch

DavidCar
Apr 20, 2006, 12:23 PM
Conroe cannot run in a dual-socket configuration, so a Conroe-based system is limited to two cores. Not really a replacement path for the quad PMG5.

Woodcrest will do dual-socket (4 cores total), but Intel has always priced their Xeon-class CPUs and chipsets at a premium.

Aiden's prediction is:


Conroe - new dual-core small mini-tower form factor ("PowerMac"), more RAM capacity (8 GiB), PCIe x16 graphics card (user-upgradeable), 3.5" SATA disk (up to 500 GB), room for second HD or second optical. Fills huge product gap between the MiniMacIntel and the PowerMac G5 maxi-tower.
Woodcrest - maxi-tower replacement for the PMG5 ("PowerMac Pro"). Dual-socket (4 cores), 16-32 GiB RAM, more disks than PMG5, $500 price increase from PMG5


What about Conroe for the iMac, and dual socket Woodcrests in a mini tower as a replacement for the maxi tower, using less expensive lower speed Woodcrests on the low end?

FWIW, I prefer the name SuperMac to Mac Pro. Sounds better, I think.

milo
Apr 20, 2006, 12:32 PM
FWIW, I prefer the name SuperMac to Mac Pro. Sounds better, I think.

There's already been a SuperMac. One of the clone makers used that name years ago.

BlizzardBomb
Apr 20, 2006, 12:36 PM
Aiden's prediction is:


Conroe - new dual-core small mini-tower form factor ("PowerMac"), more RAM capacity (8 GiB), PCIe x16 graphics card (user-upgradeable), 3.5" SATA disk (up to 500 GB), room for second HD or second optical. Fills huge product gap between the MiniMacIntel and the PowerMac G5 maxi-tower.
Woodcrest - maxi-tower replacement for the PMG5 ("PowerMac Pro").Dual-socket (4 cores), 16-32 GiB RAM, more disks than PMG5, $500 price increase from PMG5


PowerMac Pro... My head hurts even thinking about naming a Mac that. Too confusing for the consumer.

milo
Apr 20, 2006, 12:40 PM
PowerMac Pro... My head hurts even thinking about naming a Mac that. Too confusing for the consumer.

Not to mention Jobs saying "we're done with power".

Mostly likely Mac Pro. I'd love to see a mini tower but can't think of a catchy name for it.

manu chao
Apr 20, 2006, 12:43 PM
I'm hoping without knowing anything MBP Quad by end of 2007. Other more immediate possible new features would be an external SATA port, Dual 160 GB Seagate 2.5" 7200 rpm HDs (total net 300GB inside) and a SuperMultiDrive - capable of burning HD-DVD and/or BlueRay plus all DL and single layer formats at top speeds. :)

A RAID 1 with two 2.5" drives would be cool. Dual processors and dual drives together with a fast FSB should really make a laptop scream.

j26
Apr 20, 2006, 12:48 PM
Meroms in MBP's, Yonah in MacBook???

mozmac
Apr 20, 2006, 12:52 PM
Bring on the new processors! I can't wait to see the new PowerMac. It's like this ominous giants lurking in the back of the cave waiting to come forth and take the world by storm.

boncellis
Apr 20, 2006, 01:00 PM
Meroms in MBP's, Yonah in MacBook???

That is rather likely, in my opinion--for about two months now that has been popular speculation in this forum, and for good reason.

Apple has done away with the G4/G5 naming in favor of a "Pro" distinction, I wonder if it will be more or less confusing to the general public. People looking at the notebook line with Intel Core architecture (one being Merom the other being Yonah) will likely look at the price tag longer than they will the blurb explaining the difference between 32 and 64 bit processors when there aren't too many applications that take advantage of the 64 bit Merom.

I'm really excited for the Merom Mini (or maybe an intermediate desktop), I think that will last me for a long time. The question is, even though Intel may be ahead of schedule, will Apple take advantage or stick to their current plans?

Roller
Apr 20, 2006, 01:02 PM
There's already been a SuperMac. One of the clone makers used that name years ago.

Actually, the name goes back even further than that... SuperMac made one of the first SCSI hard drives for the Mac Plus in 1986. As I recall, I paid only about $900 for their DataFrame 20MB drive and thought that I'd have enough space to last for many years. :)

j26
Apr 20, 2006, 01:13 PM
There's already been a SuperMac.

Yes there has, and still is! (http://www.supermacs.ie/):D

Catfish_Man
Apr 20, 2006, 01:16 PM
I would agree with you EXCEPT that by next Spring, when CS3 ships, an EIGHT CORE Dual Kentsfield desktop Mac will also be shipping with Leopard that will be a PPC Quad Killer. :eek: But Leopard will also give new life and a major boost to these first gen "old" PPC Quads as well.

We'll see. Xeon pricing has traditionally been pretty steep, so I wouldn't be surprised to see Apple avoiding the server chips when possible. It'd sure be fun to play with though :)

QPlot
Apr 20, 2006, 01:17 PM
Meroms in MBP's, Yonah in MacBook???
ye, baby. That's right. :cool:

fahlman
Apr 20, 2006, 01:29 PM
the 'core' chips had 34 errors reported in their processing architecture within four weeks of launch. Every processor ships with errata, or "errors reported in their processing architecture". For instance the IBM PowerPC 750FX shipped with 24 errata (http://www-306.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/79B6E24422AA101287256E93006C957E/$file/PowerPC_970FX_errata_DD3.X_V1.7.pdf). You're just looking for a reason to bash Intel. You thought you had found one, but were wrong. Keep looking.

supafly1703
Apr 20, 2006, 01:36 PM
2nd Rev Merom 17" MBP....come to papa... (FW800 please?)

MacRumorsReader
Apr 20, 2006, 01:55 PM
Somebody "quantify" all of this for me:

I went from a PB 1.5 to a MBP 2.16 and the performance gain was astounding. Some tests put it on par with the Dual 2.0 G5.

So as far as numbers go, the Core Duo is as fast as a Dual G5 (or twice as fast as a 1.5 G4). Huge gain for the Apple laptop world.

But what do the numbers look like for the other machines? Are we going to be able to double the performace of Apple Towers with simple chip placement? Or will it be percentage gains like 10% better or 15% better?

Because it's looking like the real reason for Apple to release portables first is simple: Show the greatest jump first and then update the smaller increases.

Am I wrong? Somebody baffle me with the numbers.

lazyrighteye
Apr 20, 2006, 02:01 PM
Not to mention Jobs saying "we're done with power".
Mostly likely Mac Pro. I'd love to see a mini tower but can't think of a catchy name for it.

Mac mini
iMac
MacBook?
MacBook Pro
MacTop Pro (play on desktop?)?

It just hits me as I am typing this out... they won't go iMac Pro will they? :O

My 2.

MacRumorsReader
Apr 20, 2006, 02:08 PM
I'd like it to just be called a Mac (and Mac Pro)

.... and then the Cinema displays can be renamed to MacCinema and MacCinema Pro. :rolleyes:

tonyl
Apr 20, 2006, 02:11 PM
With some Conroe ES samples floating around, I believe it'll hit stores earlier, as well as Intel PM.

DeathChill
Apr 20, 2006, 02:16 PM
Tha's ASSuming Intel will use power and have higher performance in the shipping silicon. And ASSuming AMD stays right where they are today.

Your'e forgetting that Intel has not had anything really competitive since the Athlon came out - P4 is a joke, Itanic is a flop, and the Core really offers little gains compared to AMD.

AMD has been increasing market and mindshare lots in recent years while puttingout superior products. It's refresing seeing the best starting to win in the market.

Now if Apple would just follow suit (and go AMD), all will be great! :)
Uh, Core doesn't gain much on AMD?
http://www.anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=2713&p=2
http://www.anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=2716&p=3

Well, there's Conroe beating AMD's top chips, which are also overclocked, so I'd say that's an awesome gain. Apple didn't go AMD because they saw that Intel was actually doing things right now.

As well, AMD's AM2 has been shown to be nothing new, except DDR2 support which isn't helping anything.
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2741&p=3

BlizzardBomb
Apr 20, 2006, 02:27 PM
Meroms in MBP's, Yonah in MacBook???

Merom is replacing Yonah. Merom will take Yonah's price points so Apple will be expected to update.

DavidCar
Apr 20, 2006, 02:33 PM
We'll see. Xeon pricing has traditionally been pretty steep, so I wouldn't be surprised to see Apple avoiding the server chips when possible. It'd sure be fun to play with though :) Woodcrest is positioned as both a server and workstation chip, with the Glidewell chipset for the workstation version. The inquirer expects prices as follows:

The Woodcrest 80W series includes the 5160, which is a 3GHz, 4MB cache, 1333MHz system bus processor; the 5150, which clocks at 2.66GHz; the LV 5148 at 2.33GHz; the 5140 at 2.33GHz; the 5130 at 2GHz; the 5120 at 1.86GHz and the 5110 at 1.60GHz. ... Intel has piced up the Woodcrests for the third quarter launch, with the 5148 costing $520, the 5160 $850, the 5150 $700, the 5140 $450, the 5130 $320, the 5120 $255 and the 5110 $210.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=30511

On the other topic, anyone for TowerMac, HyperMac or UberMac?

absurdio
Apr 20, 2006, 02:35 PM
two questions:
1) what's the likelihood of seeing Merom appear in the 15" MBPs? I'm quite sure it'll be in the 17-inchers eventually...but do you think that's gonna be a pro-er version? Or will Apple stick Merom in all the MBPs? ...I can't wait for the Rev B MBPs, man.
2) This is probably a stupid question, but why isn't the processor in the MBPs socketed/replaceable? i.e. what's the advantage of soldering it in? And is there any chance the later portables will be socketed? It seems like now that Apple has to keep up with Intel's quicker update cycle, they'd stand to benefit from letting users upgrade their computers. Shouldn't I have the ability to upgrade if i want?

and one comment:
The intel transition might as you pointed out become expensive for Mac FPS gamers. But, if you like me prefer strategy games you can run a new game on an old machine. I really dont see any reason why you need to a FPS on a computer, when you have PS, Xbox...


Consoles are at best okay. I admit I'm no avid gamer, but the few I have played have ALWAYS been better on computer. Plus, if I can play Half Life 2 on a new Mac (which i need for reasons well beyond gaming) w/ Boot Camp, I'd MUCH rather do that than drop some $400 on an xbox 360 that MIGHT be able to keep up, graphically.

boncellis
Apr 20, 2006, 02:35 PM
...Well, there's Conroe beating AMD's top chips, which are also overclocked, so I'd say that's an awesome gain. Apple didn't go AMD because they saw that Intel was actually doing things right now.

As well, AMD's AM2 has been shown to be nothing new, except DDR2 support which isn't helping anything.
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2741&p=3

I seem to recall Intel saying that Conroe was really something special from the beginning. So far, I tend to agree.

The beautiful thing about Mr. Jobs' vision of universal binaries is that 5-7 years from now if the PPC architecture starts beating both AMD and Intel, Apple could ostensibly go back to IBM or whoever wants to improve the PPC (or something else no one has heard of) processors. There could come a day when only the geeks and engineers talk about chipsets and processors (hard to fathom, but possible).

boncellis
Apr 20, 2006, 02:38 PM
Merom is replacing Yonah. Merom will take Yonah's price points so Apple will be expected to update.

I'm not so sure, BlizzardBomb. With the recent Yonah price drop, why not keep it around in a low(er) end notebook?

PS--Love your avatar. I can't wait for E3 so I can finally learn something about it!

j26
Apr 20, 2006, 02:39 PM
Merom is replacing Yonah. Merom will take Yonah's price points so Apple will be expected to update.

You're probably right, but I was just thinking it as a possibility as a way to distinguish the MacBook from the MacBook Pro. I mean, many cheaper PC laptops still use Celeron, right?

Yonah may find a place as the cheaper processor offering by Intel. If Merom takes the Yonah price points, why can't Yonah take lower price points? People still get a screaming mac, but the pro's get the hysterical ones.:)


Pure conjecture on my part, but it would seem odd to do away with such a good processor when crap ones still sell by the bucketload.

alfismoney
Apr 20, 2006, 02:42 PM
Every processor ships with errata, or "errors reported in their processing architecture". For instance the IBM PowerPC 750FX shipped with 24 errata (http://www-306.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/79B6E24422AA101287256E93006C957E/$file/PowerPC_970FX_errata_DD3.X_V1.7.pdf). You're just looking for a reason to bash Intel. You thought you had found one, but were wrong. Keep looking.

perhaps you should've continued reading my post, or the exchange that followed. the errors reported in the core comment is not a bash at intel (i'm quite happy that apple is using intel chips and am aware that errors are inherent in making processors), i was simply pointing out that people might have been rating the news as negative because intel is pushing the first chip in the core line (essentially a public beta as far as its lifespan is shaping up at the moment, 6 months to replacement feels like a very short shelf life for a processor) out to bring in new products very very quickly. people usually like to be reassured that things have been properly tested and documented before they ship, which i have a feeling intel has done anyway.

if i wanted to bash intel (or apple, or amd, or ibm, or ms), i'm sure i could come up with a much better argument than them distributing a product that has documented workarounds.

milo
Apr 20, 2006, 02:45 PM
2) This is probably a stupid question, but why isn't the processor in the MBPs socketed/replaceable? i.e. what's the advantage of soldering it in? And is there any chance the later portables will be socketed? It seems like now that Apple has to keep up with Intel's quicker update cycle, they'd stand to benefit from letting users upgrade their computers. Shouldn't I have the ability to upgrade if i want?

Consoles are at best okay. I admit I'm no avid gamer, but the few I have played have ALWAYS been better on computer. Plus, if I can play Half Life 2 on a new Mac (which i need for reasons well beyond gaming) w/ Boot Camp, I'd MUCH rather do that than drop some $400 on an xbox 360 that MIGHT be able to keep up, graphically.

Socketed takes up more space, if they did that in the laptop, it couldn't be as thin. They probably won't have any socketed in laptops unless the technology changes drastically.

The main advantage of consoles is price. A serious gaming computer will cost well more than a console will. Plus it's nice to be able to hook it to the TV and not be tying up the computer when you're playing.

ChrisA
Apr 20, 2006, 02:47 PM
What are the advantages of merom?
Is it worth the returning my imac.


Now with the switch to Intel you can get a 10% faster computer every 6 months. So now matter what you buy or when you buy it, had you waited half a year you'd get something faster. The fast update cycle means each update is smaller.

Also least we all forget the CPU is not the computer. Doubling the the CPU speed does NOT make the computer twice as fast. You still have the disk and graphic card and RAM and the busses and so on. In fact only when the CPU activity meter is pegged out would a faster CPU by noticable. How often doe the CPU graph max out on your Mac?
On my system only graphic, video and audio file conversions do that.

DeathChill
Apr 20, 2006, 02:57 PM
I seem to recall Intel saying that Conroe was really something special from the beginning. So far, I tend to agree.

The beautiful thing about Mr. Jobs' vision of universal binaries is that 5-7 years from now if the PPC architecture starts beating both AMD and Intel, Apple could ostensibly go back to IBM or whoever wants to improve the PPC (or something else no one has heard of) processors. There could come a day when only the geeks and engineers talk about chipsets and processors (hard to fathom, but possible).
That's not going to happen. PowerPC doesn't really have too much of a future now that Apple's gone. PowerPC stuff will obviously still be made but there will be no push to get it faster, cooler, and just generally better. x86 chip makers (AMD, Intel) pour in money to R & D that IBM can't match. It's game over for PowerPC, basically.

BlizzardBomb
Apr 20, 2006, 02:58 PM
I'm not so sure, BlizzardBomb. With the recent Yonah price drop, why not keep it around in a low(er) end notebook?

PS--Love your avatar. I can't wait for E3 so I can finally learn something about it!

Well the price drop wasn't too significant around the low-end, and as far as I'm aware, the Dual-core 1.66Ghz Merom, is taking the Yonah Core Solo's price, so Apple should really push out the new technology. :)

QCassidy352
Apr 20, 2006, 02:59 PM
You're probably right, but I was just thinking it as a possibility as a way to distinguish the MacBook from the MacBook Pro. I mean, many cheaper PC laptops still use Celeron, right?

Yonah may find a place as the cheaper processor offering by Intel. If Merom takes the Yonah price points, why can't Yonah take lower price points? People still get a screaming mac, but the pro's get the hysterical ones.:)

I agree, that makes perfect sense. 2.0 Ghz core duo macbook for $1299... mmmm.

DavidCar
Apr 20, 2006, 03:03 PM
This is from a report on the workstation market:

A senior analyst for John Peddie says Intel's upcoming Woodcrest processor and Glidewell platform should allow Intel to "dramatically close the performance gap with Opteron, especially in dual-socket applications."

The full report is available for only $5,000.

http://techreport.com/onearticle.x/9768

j26
Apr 20, 2006, 03:04 PM
I agree, that makes perfect sense. 2.0 Ghz core duo macbook for $1299... mmmm.

mmmmm indeed!

Photorun
Apr 20, 2006, 04:45 PM
Mac mini
iMac
MacBook?
MacBook Pro
MacTop Pro (play on desktop?)?

It'll be called the MacMac.

kenn8theocho
Apr 20, 2006, 04:58 PM
This is my situation: I am a pc user looking to switch to a Mac notebook. I am considering getting a 12" pb on ebay for under 1200, but i have a few concerns. Do you think the laptop will be too old in a few years?? I want at least 3 years of satisfaction from my laptop. I don't want the new ibook that's coming out, because they will be rather pricy... and they fall in the ibook line. ShouldI go ahead and get the 12"? Will it keep me up to speed forat least 3 yrs.? I have no extra money to spend, and I want the amount that I do spend to pay of. Otherwise, I might have to go for a cheaper brand that I could easily update without killing my bank account. Anyone have any advice?

mischief
Apr 20, 2006, 05:01 PM
It'll be called the MacMac.


Yeesh.

Mac Mini
iMac
Macbook
Macbook Pro
xMac Pro
xServe
xRAID

aussie_geek
Apr 20, 2006, 05:09 PM
Like I said time and again, best to wait it out and get a Rev B or Rev C MacBook Pro.


yep, sounds like a purchase will be in order after Macworld next year.


aussie_geek

boncellis
Apr 20, 2006, 05:10 PM
That's not going to happen. PowerPC doesn't really have too much of a future now that Apple's gone. PowerPC stuff will obviously still be made but there will be no push to get it faster, cooler, and just generally better. x86 chip makers (AMD, Intel) pour in money to R & D that IBM can't match. It's game over for PowerPC, basically.

You're probably right, but I think you missed the point--Universal Applications make it possible, however improbable. Are you willing to go on the record and say right now that x86 architecture will always be the superior computing technology? I know I would be wary of making a claim like that, especially in this area. ;)

aussie_geek
Apr 20, 2006, 05:16 PM
This is my situation: I am a pc user looking to switch to a Mac notebook. I am considering getting a 12" pb on ebay for under 1200, but i have a few concerns. Do you think the laptop will be too old in a few years?? I want at least 3 years of satisfaction from my laptop. I don't want the new ibook that's coming out, because they will be rather pricy... and they fall in the ibook line. ShouldI go ahead and get the 12"? Will it keep me up to speed forat least 3 yrs.? I have no extra money to spend, and I want the amount that I do spend to pay of. Otherwise, I might have to go for a cheaper brand that I could easily update without killing my bank account. Anyone have any advice?

Although you are hijacking this thread, it really depends on what you will want to do with your Mac. For email, word processing and some light photoshop work it will be ok if you max out the ram.

The G4 processor will be getting a little long in the tooth in 3 years and you will probably be restricted with regards to using new software.

In short, save a little more money and get one of the new iBooks that will be released soon.

aussie_geek

DeathChill
Apr 20, 2006, 05:47 PM
You're probably right, but I think you missed the point--Universal Applications make it possible, however improbable. Are you willing to go on the record and say right now that x86 architecture will always be the superior computing technology? I know I would be wary of making a claim like that, especially in this area. ;)
I understood what the main point (ease of switching between architectures) is, but I'm saying it's very unlikely is all. I'm NOT saying x86 will always be the dominant architecture, but I doubt that PowerPC is ever going to be back on top. That's not the same as saying there's no chance in hell, it's just me saying I highly doubt it.

Norse Son
Apr 20, 2006, 06:05 PM
All apple needs to do is to now make their machines easily upgradable to the newer processors, I know the iMac and mini are, but its not so easy to do so. If apple could bring their ease of use to the hardware side they could really keep the new intel macs from loosing value as fast as the rest of the PC world does.
At first I (recalled) reading that the iMac's Yonah was sodered on, but when the mini came out I read that it was socketed - only the MBP has it sodered on (to save space).

I'd love to put a spankin' fast, new Merom into my iMac, but I'm almost dead certain it would void my 3yr AppleCare Protection Plan... Bummer!

DeathChill
Apr 20, 2006, 06:08 PM
At first I (recalled) reading that the iMac's Yonah was sodered on, but when the mini came out I read that it was socketed - only the MBP has it sodered on (to save space).

I'd love to put a spankin' fast, new Merom into my iMac, but I'm almost dead certain it would void my 3yr AppleCare Protection Plan... Bummer!
Keep the Core Duo chip and if anything ever breaks just put the Core Duo back in. ;)

I plan on getting a Merom chip and swapping out my Core Solo from my Mini. It'll be the very first CPU swap I've ever done. I'm going to probably save up for the mid-range Merom's because the second slowest Merom outperformed the current fastest Core Duo, and there's a LARGE price gap there.

AidenShaw
Apr 20, 2006, 06:20 PM
What about Conroe for the iMac, and dual socket Woodcrests in a mini tower as a replacement for the maxi tower, using less expensive lower speed Woodcrests on the low end?

OK, but wouldn't it be odd to have a 3 GHz Conroe in an iMac and a 2.1 GHz Woodcrest in the more expensive "pro" desktop?

Some people will want the maxi-tower (especially if Apple puts some decent disk expansion in it), others will want the mini-tower.

I really think that three desktop sizes makes more sense. "mini", "mini-tower", and "maxi-tower". The two end points already exist...

Norse Son
Apr 20, 2006, 06:37 PM
Keep the Core Duo chip and if anything ever breaks just put the Core Duo back in. ;)

I plan on getting a Merom chip and swapping out my Core Solo from my Mini. It'll be the very first CPU swap I've ever done. I'm going to probably save up for the mid-range Merom's because the second slowest Merom outperformed the current fastest Core Duo, and there's a LARGE price gap there.
Where does one go to buy a CPU, such as Merom? Being a longtime Mac user I've never had the scary luxury that I "had the power" to just pop open (okay, not that easy) my iMac, grab the CPU with some tweezers and duct tape (kidding) and replace it with a better chip.

Multimedia
Apr 20, 2006, 06:44 PM
This is my situation: I am a pc user looking to switch to a Mac notebook. I am considering getting a 12" pb on ebay for under 1200, but i have a few concerns. Do you think the laptop will be too old in a few years?? I want at least 3 years of satisfaction from my laptop. I don't want the new ibook that's coming out, because they will be rather pricy... and they fall in the ibook line. ShouldI go ahead and get the 12"? Will it keep me up to speed forat least 3 yrs.? I have no extra money to spend, and I want the amount that I do spend to pay of. Otherwise, I might have to go for a cheaper brand that I could easily update without killing my bank account. Anyone have any advice?NO.It is too old NOW. The new MacBook will NOT be rather pricy. Wait for the 12" MacBookIntel and get it. That is NO DEAL on eBay.:eek: :rolleyes:

DeathChill
Apr 20, 2006, 06:44 PM
Where does one go to buy a CPU, such as Merom? Being a longtime Mac user I've never had the scary luxury that I "had the power" to just pop open (okay, not that easy) my iMac, grab the CPU with some tweezers and duct tape (kidding) and replace it with a better chip.
There's www.newegg.com for US resident and www.ncix.com for Canadian residents.

It's quite the scary idea, but I can't wait until Merom comes out. What months is Q3 2006 anyway? I thought Merom was supposed to come at least 3-4 months before Conroe, so should we expect Merom within the next month or two like I heard (May)?


EDIT: As for eBay it OFTEN seems like people pay above retail for things just because they want the privilege of winning the item. I've seen people bid WELL above the retail price for the PowerPC Mac Mini's recently (before and after the Intel Mini announcement).

Multimedia
Apr 20, 2006, 06:53 PM
Like I said time and again, best to wait it out and get a Rev B or Rev C MacBook Pro.yep, sounds like a purchase will be in order after Macworld next year.Ahoy Mates. Kinda boring in here what? I'll see you both and raise you:

"And with Leopard On Board." :p :eek: :)

Norse Son
Apr 20, 2006, 07:05 PM
I think that we'll see a strong presentation on Leopard at WWDC in August, most likely highlighting native-Intel code enhancements AND 64bit "swaths" of code throughout. And in conjunction with that, Steve will announce a release date - my guess is MWSF '07 - which will put it even with the latest "fantasy" news from Microsoft on LongBore's public release. Steve will want to use WWDC to point out the real & vaporware differences between what will be in Leopard versus what was last promised for Windows "Vestage".

Also, the August WWDC will allow Steve to announce the launch of a MBP model or two with Merom - I see them keeping Yonah in some MBP models through the end of '06 - and he will announce the new Pro desktops (whatever their monikor). They will be available for ordering that day, but won't begin shipping in volume until the first weeks of September (same for a Merom MBP).

Alongside the new Pro tower(s) will be redesigned Cinema Displays, that all feature built-in iSight cameras (is HD-quality possible in the iSight of the "flagship" display?), and all will be HD resolution. The 17" may (likely) be replaced by a 19-20" at the low-end, followed by 23-25" mid-range and (my guess) is a larger 37" (or greater) at the high-end... Maybe the 30" flagship will remain, but at a $500 price-drop.

I know, I know, people don't see it happening until Adobe releases CS3 in 2007; but Apple already has their FCStudio as a Universal, and by WWDC I suspect several other pro-level apps from 3rd parties will be, too. And with a measureable performance increase via Conroe/Woodcrest, Apple may not be too concerned about launching new Pro machines a half-year before CS3.

As for the XServe; I can see that being upgraded to Woodcrest around Oct.-Nov. And I can see Apple making a "splashy" announcement at MWSF '07 that Viginia Tech has just upgraded their "Big Mac"(?) supercomputer cluster to Intel XServes.

I don't know; that's just my speculation on the subject.

heisetax
Apr 20, 2006, 07:24 PM
And somebody already has!! I know comments have been made in the past but I really don't get it... Why, oh why, oh why would such a story receive a negative?!?

Should pull said individual[s] up and demand they give a valid argument!!

Anyway, back to the story...

Personally looking to the future of an all Intel line-up, and a future where I can safely purchase an Intel desktop machine -- I'm desperately trying to avoid the use of PowerMac here as I know it ain't gonna be called such!!

Great stuff... ;)


Those that wanted an updated PowerMac G5 to last them until the Intel Macs & Intel/Mac software catches up to where the G5 already is at. I had planned on purchasing the replacement for the dual dual 2.5 GHz G5. But with the early delivery of the new line this will not happen. Like many I will probably not choose to purchace a year-old model. I also will not purchase a new Intel Mac for many years... Too much of my software will not be updated, or will be updated at too high of a cost to make it worthwhile. I'll just keep my 17" PowerBook with its FW800 port around for much longer than Apple would want me to. The current Mac Pook only makes it to a SemiPro level without a high-speed FW800 or eSATAport(s). I operate off of FW800 & do not want to start life out with a new portable that requires an added card just to use all of my FW800 devices.

This early release is why Apple moved up its date for an all Intel Mac computer line. Steve does not like to continue to sell the old after he has something new to sell, even if the old is better or just plain most useful.

Count be out.

Bill the TaxMan

081440
Apr 20, 2006, 07:37 PM
One could not defend in any form or fashion a negative rating to this post! :mad:

My god it's good when the processors get faster and get here sooner. So what if u just bought a mac... this is what tech companys do... sell processors now to make money to finance the design of faster ones!!

It's all good!

AidenShaw
Apr 20, 2006, 08:07 PM
I don't know; that's just my speculation on the subject.
Could I get a nice long hit of whatever it is that you're smoking? :cool:


64bit "swaths" of code throughout.
Nothing less that true 64-bit throughout would make sense.

Making 10.5's 64-bit support "a little less lame" than 10.4's support would be a big mistake in the long term. Apple can't expect developers to keep porting to different APIs on OSX.

mvc
Apr 20, 2006, 08:13 PM
...I really think that three desktop sizes makes more sense. "mini", "mini-tower", and "maxi-tower". The two end points already exist...

Maybe that could be Mac Mini, Mac, and MaxiMac! Mac Maxi sounds like a Burger, MaxiMac sounds like a Transformer™ :p

pacman7331
Apr 20, 2006, 08:58 PM
The Merom processor is also said to be pin compatible (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/04/20060412011938.shtml) with the current Core Duo processors. Merom processors would presumably be used in upcoming MacBook Pros.

Little has been said about Apple's plans (if any) for Woodcrest, which is Intel's server-targeted processor.

Somone should start a service which would remove the MBP Yonah processors and soldering in a new merom for a fee. ... that is if there is no significant upgrade in the surrounding circuit hardware.

Does anyone know the history of Apple's laptop CPU upgrades? Is there a history whatsoever?

-ZTM

DeathChill
Apr 20, 2006, 09:11 PM
Somone should start a service which would remove the MBP Yonah processors and soldering in a new merom for a fee. ... that is if there is no significant upgrade in the surrounding circuit hardware.

Does anyone know the history of Apple's laptop CPU upgrades? Is there a history whatsoever?

-ZTM
That'd be quite the service and soldered means it's basically melted to it. Undoing this has to be almost impossible I'd figure.

andiwm2003
Apr 20, 2006, 09:21 PM
Somone should start a service which would remove the MBP Yonah processors and soldering in a new merom for a fee. ... that is if there is no significant upgrade in the surrounding circuit hardware.

Does anyone know the history of Apple's laptop CPU upgrades? Is there a history whatsoever?

-ZTM

i could see myself to upgrade a machine if it gets at least twice as fast (like the mini solo to a 2.0 GHz duo) for a few hundred bucks. in the case of the MBP you would get ~20% for more than 500 bucks if it's possible at all. that's not worth it.

excalibur313
Apr 20, 2006, 09:37 PM
i could see myself to upgrade a machine if it gets at least twice as fast (like the mini solo to a 2.0 GHz duo) for a few hundred bucks. in the case of the MBP you would get ~20% for more than 500 bucks if it's possible at all. that's not worth it.

Look at the price difference between the 1.8 and the 2.0. It is $300, and yeah I know it has other stuff two but it has nowhere near 20% speed boost. And that is only for x86 apps, those compiled for a 64 bit processor will be even faster than that. (And before anyone says it: yes you see high performance gains in everyday applications compiled in 64bit even if you have 512mb of ram.)

This is also assuming you are going from a 2.16ghz yonah to the merom. That certainly isn't the case for many users.

pavetheforest
Apr 20, 2006, 10:34 PM
enough!!!! im not waiting any more!!!! after this tuesday coming up, I'm getting a MBP, i dont have the patience or the TIME to wait another 4 months...

DavidCar
Apr 20, 2006, 11:30 PM
OK, but wouldn't it be odd to have a 3 GHz Conroe in an iMac and a 2.1 GHz Woodcrest in the more expensive "pro" desktop?

Some people will want the maxi-tower (especially if Apple puts some decent disk expansion in it), others will want the mini-tower.

I really think that three desktop sizes makes more sense. "mini", "mini-tower", and "maxi-tower". The two end points already exist...
With the wide range of soon to be available chips, it will be interesting to see where the divisions are between product lines, and how easily each computer will be upgradeable with newer chips that are faster or have more cores.

By the article I quoted earlier about the improving workstation market, I expect we'll see a dual socket 3 Ghz Woodcrest on the high end.

But if lower power chips allowed a dual socket computer to be built in a smaller case with the same expansion options as exist in the present tower, would they prefer to move to a mini tower, or keep the existing tower with added expansion options? Have they ever made a computer that everyone thought had "decent disk expansion?"

I don't know enough about the market to guess if selling a trio of mini, midi and MaxiMacs would be an advantage.

rcha101
Apr 21, 2006, 12:09 AM
Like I said time and again, best to wait it out and get a Rev B or Rev C MacBook Pro.

Didn't we say that from serial no W8611 upwards that we are already past revision B and C. Mine is 8613 which is being referred to as revision D. Maybe it's time to step up and fork out some cash. Though I guess if you can wait till the next cpu update you should. I needed mine for work and had sold my pc so I got mine as soon as I had the dollars.

R

jer2eydevil88
Apr 21, 2006, 02:31 AM
Nice! Merom will be out just in time for me to gobble one up for the summer, providing the Macbook adopts it when it is released.

MrCrowbar
Apr 21, 2006, 03:20 AM
Since the iBook has great battery life, does anyone of you think Apple might wait until Merom (less power consumption, less heat, better price) is out to ship the Macbooks? Of course The Pro line would be updated to Merom too. I think Apple is waiting for Merom to release the 17" (and hopefully 12") Macbook Pro. The current 15" seems to get pretty warm and not easy on the battery.

I'd say Conroe for the next iMac generation and Woodcrest for the PowerMacs.

pizzach
Apr 21, 2006, 05:00 AM
My post was just state of the fact. As you wrote yourself, the much faster update cycles of intel will effectively render a top-of-the-line computer "old" much faster. However, this does not prevent the computer to be perfectly functionable for years to come.
Eventhough my post perhpas can be interpreted as slightly negative, it wasn't meant as such as you can see from my response above.

My view on the release cycle is this: You have two options:

a. Have releases far appart. When a new release is comes out, your computer is surpased by an insane amount.

b. Have close releases relatively close and have the computer depreciate gradually....


Personally, I bought a Pentium M laptap even though the Solo/Duo cores came
out. I suppose I don't have to worry about "his !@#$ is bigger than mine!" syndrome. :)

Dr.Gargoyle
Apr 21, 2006, 06:42 AM
My view on the release cycle is this: You have two options:

a. Have releases far appart. When a new release is comes out, your computer is surpased by an insane amount.

b. Have close releases relatively close and have the computer depreciate gradually....


Personally, I bought a Pentium M laptap even though the Solo/Duo cores came
out. I suppose I don't have to worry about "his !@#$ is bigger than mine!" syndrome. :)
First of all, since I believe that Apple could make a higher profit on alternative b., something tells me that we will see MUCH shorter release cycles. :rolleyes: ;)
Secondly, the release cycles on GPU's became shorter with the ADC->DVI transition when many more and "better" GPUs became available to Apple. I believe that the PPC->x86 transition in the same manner will result in an even shorter release cycle since Intel's release cycle is much shorter than that of IBM.

Bern
Apr 21, 2006, 07:32 AM
Ahoy Mates. Kinda boring in here what? I'll see you both and raise you:

"And with Leopard On Board." :p :eek: :)

I'll take your Leopard and raise you a larger capacity (ie: 120-160GB Perpendicular) hard drive :p

p0intblank
Apr 21, 2006, 07:40 AM
This is a very good thing! :D

manu chao
Apr 21, 2006, 08:14 AM
First of all, since I believe that Apple could make a higher profit on alternative b., something tells me that we will see MUCH shorter release cycles. :rolleyes: ;)
Secondly, the release cycles on GPU's became shorter with the ADC->DVI transition when many more and "better" GPUs became available to Apple. I believe that the PPC->x86 transition in the same manner will result in an even shorter release cycle since Intel's release cycle is much shorter than that of IBM.

Powerbook cycles were roughly nine months. So a new MBP in September when Merom might come out makes, September (09) minus January (01), eight months. I see, a much shorter cycle thanks to the switch to Intel.

AidenShaw
Apr 21, 2006, 08:35 AM
a. Have releases far appart. When a new release is comes out, your computer is surpased by an insane amount.
This isn't really an option any more - when Intel releases newer, faster chips all the other Intel vendors will use them. If Apple waits months to incorporate the current technology, their computers will look "obsolete" compared to everyone else.


b. Have close releases relatively close and have the computer depreciate gradually...

Powerbook cycles were roughly nine months. ... I see, a much shorter cycle thanks to the switch to Intel.
If you look at the rest of the PC industry, there tend to be "major" releases and "minor" releases - Apple will be forced into the same strategy.

"Minor" releases are a CPU speed bump, better graphics, brighter screen, more memory (RAM and/or VRAM), bigger disk.... These will happen whenever Intel or another vendor has a better or cheaper component. (For example, as soon as the 2.33 Yonah is announced it will become available in the MBP. Maybe as a second BTO option, maybe the whole line will move up a notch.) Typically in the Intel world these aren't even called new models, since it's usually just a new BTO option or a slight change to the standard config.

"Major" releases will be changes in form factor (a new sub-2 kilo notebook, mini-tower) or chip/chipset. (You can trumpet "Now 64-bit with SATA and PCI Express", you can't do the same for "Now 7.8% (133 MHz) faster".)

For an example, look at the Dell Latitude D6x0 series - D600 first with Pentium M, went through a number of speed bumps, changed to D610 with PCIexpress, couple of bumps, now D620 with Yonah dual core. Very similar form factor, same docking station and drive bay options - just a continual improvement in specs over 2 1/2 years or so.

So, minor releases will "keep up with the Joneses" and will happen much more frequently. Major releases will be the "one more things", and might not even coincide with an Intel announcement. (For example, a 1.6 Kilo notebook could be announced now, last month, or next month - it doesn't depend on an Intel release.)

Dr.Gargoyle
Apr 21, 2006, 09:33 AM
Powerbook cycles were roughly nine months. So a new MBP in September when Merom might come out makes, September (09) minus January (01), eight months. I see, a much shorter cycle thanks to the switch to Intel.
I guess AidenShaw already answered this, but since I am a complete nag. :cool:
I can't remember when PB went G3->G4, but the PB has been equipped with a G4 proc. for years. Yonah->Merom is a proc transition very much like G3->G4 ("major" release (see AidenShaw)). The Powerbook cycles you are taking about is a speedbump ("minor" release). According to your info we would see "major" releases (diff proc) at the same speed as we have seen "minor" releases (speedbumps) during the PPC era.

Multimedia
Apr 21, 2006, 10:13 AM
I'll take your Leopard and raise you a larger capacity (ie: 120-160GB Perpendicular) hard drive :pI'll See Your Larger Capacity Hard Drive And Raise You To Two Inside - 300 GB net total raid or not raid inside AND a SuperMultiDrive. ;)

manu chao
Apr 21, 2006, 10:44 AM
"Minor" releases are a CPU speed bump, better graphics, brighter screen, more memory (RAM and/or VRAM), bigger disk.... These will happen whenever Intel or another vendor has a better or cheaper component.

Bigger harddrives, brighter or higher resolution screen, better GPU, more RAM etc., all these changes could have been improved in small steps by Apple even while it was using the PPCs.

It might follow the Intel CPU quite closely but that is no guarantee that it always offer the biggest harddrive available etc..

And one may note that Core Duos are already sold in laptops at 2.26 GHz, but not by Apple. I wonder why nobody here complained about this yet.

manu chao
Apr 21, 2006, 10:50 AM
I can't remember when PB went G3->G4, but the PB has been equipped with a G4 proc. for years. Yonah->Merom is a proc transition very much like G3->G4 ("major" release (see AidenShaw)). The Powerbook cycles you are taking about is a speedbump ("minor" release).

Sure if you see it that way. But everybody talking about Powerbook releases, including the Macrumors Buyers Guide, and all those people talking about having a revision C 12" Powerbook meant these nine months cycle releases.

It is not about the release cycle of Apple accelerating, it is the frequency Apple will present new processor types that is increasing. If 7410, 7445, 7447, 7448 had come out with a nine month difference, Apple would have used them.

Multimedia
Apr 21, 2006, 11:31 AM
Bigger harddrives, brighter or higher resolution screen, better GPU, more RAM etc., all these changes could have been improved in small steps by Apple even while it was using the PPCs.There were. How do you see it that they were not? :confused:

It might follow the Intel CPU quite closely but that is no guarantee that it always offer the biggest harddrive available etc..

And one may note that Core Duos are already sold in laptops at 2.26 GHz, but not by Apple. I wonder why nobody here complained about this yet.That's because what is being announced and shipped right now is merely a stop gap to get us from weak PowerBooks to 64-bit serious MacBook Pros with Leopard next year. This is totally a transition year that will see 32-bit mobile models VERY TEMPORARILY filling a gap Apple and frankly all of us wish we didn't have to go though. By next Summer, this will all be a distant memory we will all be glad to forget except the code writers who will have to deal with 32-bit mobile versions of their software for years to come thanks to the speed wars. :eek: :mad: :(

Multimedia
Apr 21, 2006, 11:51 AM
I guess AidenShaw already answered this, but since I am a complete nag. :cool:
I can't remember when PB went G3->G4,

November 10, 1997 - January 9, 2001 is your G3 era.

Over 3 years. 233 MHz to 500 MHz - 2x improvement over 8 speed bumps, 10 models

January 9, 2001 - January 10, 2006 is your G4 era.

5 years. 400 MHz to 1.67 GHz - 4x improvement, USB 2, FW 800, GB Ethernet, 11 speed bumps, 24 models

but the PB has been equipped with a G4 proc. for years. Yonah->Merom is a proc transition very much like G3->G4 ("major" release (see AidenShaw)). The Powerbook cycles you are taking about is a speedbump ("minor" release). According to your info we would see "major" releases (diff proc) at the same speed as we have seen "minor" releases (speedbumps) during the PPC era.Seems like most changes have been incremental to me. But when the 1.25 GHz 15" Aluminum PB G4's came out on September 16, 2003, that was quite an improvement and change. Its 17" pre-cursor had ruled all year since the January 7, 2003 MacWorld Expo unveiling while 15" 1 GHz USB 1 Titanium PowerBooks continued to lag behind the new Aluminum form for over 8 more months. Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah...

So you see, there is no rhyme nor reason to how these products will roll out when. :D

But I think it's safe to say, thanks to multi-cores, the future track record will be much better than those of the G3 an G4 eras. :rolleyes:

manu chao
Apr 21, 2006, 12:18 PM
There were. How do you see it that they were not? :confused:


Apple had the tendency to be roughly half a year behind any announcements in 2.5" disk sector (7200 rpm drives anyone?). Similar things can be said for the GPU.

My point is that Apple will not introduce every two month a minor modification of its products, like in January a faster CPU, in March a bigger disk, in May a better GPU, in July a new port (e.g. e-SATA). They will continue to bundle theses minor upgrades to create a more compelling new product, to reduce the number of versions they have handle internally and that they have to support, etc.
The switch to Intel might alter that policy somewhat, but as I said before Apple has not offered the 2.26 GHz Core Duo yet, it seems they will wait at least until the 2.33 GHz chip becomes available and maybe even until Merom.

Multimedia
Apr 21, 2006, 12:26 PM
Apple had the tendency to be roughly half a year behind any announcements in 2.5" disk sector (7200 rpm drives anyone). Similar things can be said for the GPU.

My point is that Apple will not introduce every two month a minor modification of its products, like in January a faster CPU, in March a bigger disk, in May a better GPU, in July a new port (e.g. e-SATA). They will continue to bundle theses minor upgrades to create a more compelling new product, to reduce the number of versions they have handle internally and that they have to support, etc.
The switch to Intel might alter that policy somewhat, but as I said before Apple has not offered the 2.26 GHz Core Duo yet, it seems they will wait at least untill the 2.33 GHz chip becomes available and maybe even until Merom.I imagine they are releasing the 2.26 GHz Yonah In the 17" MacBook Pro to be announced Sunday at NAB to differentiate it from the 15" model. I also expect Expresscard/54 in this new model to further differentiate it and maximally satisfy the "port gap" problem. Even eSATA may be a part of this new mobile flagship.

BlizzardBomb
Apr 22, 2006, 03:28 AM
FW800? I'll bet we NEVER see it in an apple laptop again. What other laptops include it?

Soon, you'll be able to use FW800 on the MacBook Pro thanks to it's ExpressCard Slot :)

I imagine they are releasing the 2.26 GHz Yonah In the 17" MacBook Pro to be announced Sunday at NAB to differentiate it from the 15" model. I also expect Expresscard/54 in this new model to further differentiate it and maximally satisfy the "port gap" problem. Even eSATA may be a part of this new mobile flagship.

You mean 2.16Ghz, with a 2.33Ghz BTO ;)

THX1139
Apr 22, 2006, 04:50 AM
It'll be called the MacMac.

MacMac and MacTop are stupid names. I hope Apple thinks of something simple and not as silly as that.

Why not just call the Intel desktops "Mac-Pro"?

Photorun
Apr 22, 2006, 07:24 AM
MacMac and MacTop are stupid names.

You may want to turn on your humor detector and see if you get a read.

Multimedia
Apr 22, 2006, 09:25 AM
MacMac and MacTop are stupid names.
You may want to turn on your humor detector and see if you get a read.I certainly did from your post Photorun. lol. :p :D ;)

Norse Son
Apr 22, 2006, 10:38 AM
Could I get a nice long hit of whatever it is that you're smoking? :cool:


Nothing less that true 64-bit throughout would make sense.

Making 10.5's 64-bit support "a little less lame" than 10.4's support would be a big mistake in the long term. Apple can't expect developers to keep porting to different APIs on OSX.
Was that a cheeky slap I felt, or was it just tongue in cheek? I look at it this way:
• Apple says the Intel-transition will be complete (approx.) a year ahead of schedule...
• WWDC was moved roughly 2 months later than normal...
• Surprise! Microsoft is delaying Vista/"Vestage" 'til January (write that in pencil)...
• Apple announces Bootcamp...
• Then Intel "advances" the release schedules for Merom/Conroe/Woodcrest...
• Then I read this today - and I know, Cringley is not without his doubts or faults, but, still, it is intriguing: http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20060420.html

Speaking of APIs, that Cringley blog, if ("if") true, would represent the real Holy Grail - no need to even buy & install Windows on our Macs in order to use certain apps we can't find in the Mac software aisle.

scottlinux
Apr 22, 2006, 10:56 AM
All the people with concern about their newly purchased intel iMacs:

The intel iMacs have a socket. You can pop the CPU out, and place a newer one in. So in a couple of years if you want to upgrade, just pop in a newer chip. Your purchase should last MANY many years; just upgrade when needed.

AidenShaw
Apr 22, 2006, 11:14 AM
Was that a cheeky slap I felt, or was it just tongue in cheek
Tongue in cheek, or course - no smiley needed when things are so obvious. ;)

Then Intel "advances" the release schedules for Merom/Conroe/Woodcrest...
The Intel schedule change is all about AMD - not Apple/Dell/HP/MS or anything else.

However, August is close enough to the earlier schedule that Apple may have decided that they could do an announcement of "shipping next month".

It's also quite likely that even though the schedule is driven by Intel's competiton with AMD, that partners like Apple (and Dell/HP/IBM...) were told under non-disclosure that things were going well and that the schedule was firm.

Availability of chip samples (remember the guy who has a Merom chip that he plugged into a MacIntel) is also good evidence. If samples are easy to find and work well, you have more confidence in what Intel's saying that if they are scarce as hen's teeth or only "mostly" work.

Considering samples, the August date might also have been chosen so that Apple can show a true 64-bit version of OSX running on a "prototype" system with a Merom or Conroe chip. (They may have been developing on the Pentium 4 64-bit chips, but didn't want to show a Pentium 4 again at WWDC. Remember that the Intel DTK systems from last year's WWDC were actually 64-bit Pentium 4s running in 32-bit only mode.)

Speaking of APIs
Interesting, but only if the licensing terms (or renewal) give Apple the right to Vista APIs, IMO.

I can't see Apple doing a big "XP (only) on OSX" around the time that Vista launches.

There's also the big "OS/2" question - would such a move mark the end of any development of OSX-native software outside of Cupertino itself?

shawnce
Apr 22, 2006, 11:18 AM
Then I read this today - and I know, Cringley is not without his doubts or faults, but, still, it is intriguing: http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20060420.html

Humm... my opinion for Cringely just went down all the more after reviewing that article. For example...

Speed. Quite simply, a monolithic kernel like the one used in Linux or most of the other Open Source Unix clones is inherently two to three times faster for integer calculations than the Mach microkernel presently used in OS X 10.4 Ummm what? 1) the performance of integer operations are very much decoupled form kernel implementation, 2) Mac OS X doesn't use a micro-kernel (it isn't a Mach micro-kernel... it is a monolithic kernel with a Mach based schedular and IPC system with IOKit and BSD mixed in), 3) two main sources for deltas in system call performance exist between Linux and Mac OS X exist (this is the main source of performance claims you see thrown around).... the first comes from a difference in the focus / philosophy of optimized pathways and the other from incurring a more expensive context switch since on Mac OS X the kernel isn't mapped into application space like it is on Linux (a few pages are for higher speed user land / kernel communication).

Anyway it is possible that 10.5 will not be universal and maybe only support Intel and in so doing allowing them to revamp more of the kernel (not that it needs it... xnu is a good kernel... just add in x86-64 support... and on such systems map some of the kernel into every application to boost system call performance) but all signs from Apple so far have implied that 10.5 will be universal.

AidenShaw
Apr 22, 2006, 11:29 AM
...all signs from Apple so far have implied that 10.5 will be universal.
That doesn't mean that PPC and x64 builds will have identical features - there will almost certainly be new capabilities that can only be used on x64 processors.

A feature like true 64-bit support, for example.

There are at least three good reasons for bringing features to x64-only:

Some hardware features are not available on PPC (like VT "Virtualization Technology"), or only on a subset of the PPCs (like 64-bit), or not reasonable on many PPCs (like 64-bit on an iMac G5 with a 2 GiB memory limit)
Apple may find it hard to justify expensive engineering efforts to bring features to the dying PPC platform - do you spend millions to ensure parity between PPC and OSX, just as you are killing off all the PPC systems?
The more goodies that are "Intel-only", the more Intel boxes Apple will sell. (The flip side of "Intel switchover ahead of schedule" is "PPC obsolescence ahead of schedule".)

MrCrowbar
Apr 22, 2006, 12:49 PM
[...]
The more goodies that are "Intel-only", the more Intel boxes Apple will sell. (The flip side of "Intel switchover ahead of schedule" is "PPC obsolescence ahead of schedule".)
[/LIST]

Good Point. Steve promised support for the PPC platform for a few years but support != developement. So this means mostly bugs will be fixed for the PPC platform whereas the real developement will go into the x86 platform. And as the upcoming Intel processors will all have 64 (correct me if I'm wrong), it's very important for the OS to make some use of that. The G5 may be 64 bit, but that was seldom used by the OS to make things faster.

PS: Sorry if I write about the PPC stuff in the past tense sometimes. Face it, the PPC is dead for Macintosh. Once the Intel PowerMacs (with the right apps) are out, no one would praise the G5s anymore. Besides, some apps out there are frozen for PPC, they develop for x86 and that is a good thing. Tecnology is beginning to develop much faster than we (the users) can adapt to it. There is exponential growth in evolution and it's shifting from carbon based creatures to mashines. Raymond Kurzweil (http://www.kurzweilai.net/) says around 2030 we will have mashines equally intelligent and creative as humans. The mashines will outsmart us (paradigm shift) very fast because they can influence their intelligence directly which we mere mortals cannot. So stop mourning the PPC please. ;)

:p

Norse Son
Apr 22, 2006, 12:54 PM
As usual, my head hurts now from trying to fathom all the "geek-speak" (no offense).

I know that 64bit will be the future - once MacOS X is fully 64bit and once major apps add 64bit support - but the interest I had in Cringley's "ramblings" - unsubstantiated or not - was the WinAPI stuff. Personally, I don't want to have to install XP or Vista on my Mac just to use the few odd apps or games unavailable for MacOS X. And if I can use the apps, then Microsoft only receives indirect revenue from it - 3rd party developers do pay a royalty to MS for licensing the APIs, don't they?

And, in my opinion, most, if not all, of the apps and/or games I would want to buy have never been available for the Mac, so it lessens the impact on Mac developers.

shawnce
Apr 22, 2006, 12:57 PM
That doesn't mean that PPC and x64 builds will have identical features - there will almost certainly be new capabilities that can only be used on x64 processors. I wasn't attempting to imply otherwise just that I don't see a radical xnu replacement in 10.5 as Cringely was implying (and none of this switch to Linux kernel or Windows crap some are throwing out). I see an evolution of xnu that maintains PowerPC support while growing to enabled / leverage capabilities that Intel chips bring to the table. I think things top on the likely hit list are x86-64 support (at a minimum like what we see on the G5 but more likely well beyond that... kernel using x86-64 and/or common/all frameworks providing an x86-64 ABI), some facilities built around virtualization capabilities present in the Intel CPUs Apple is using and support for RAID, etc. capabilities built into the Intel chip sets.

It is already nice to see that Apple is leveraging GPT and enhancing/ed HFS+ to allow live disk partition resizing (as seen in Boot Camp and 10.4.6... likely more widely supported/exposed in 10.5).

In the 10.6 time frame we will likely see ELO for support of PowerPC and possibly more radical changes to xnu... but not in 10.5.

shawnce
Apr 22, 2006, 01:21 PM
Speaking of APIs, that Cringley blog, if ("if") true, would represent the real Holy Grail - no need to even buy & install Windows on our Macs in order to use certain apps we can't find in the Mac software aisle. I don't see this happening anytime soon for a few reasons.

1) Implementing a Win32 (and 64 bit variant) or WinFX/WPF library is non-trival... in fact near impossible to do 100% and would require continuous maintenance,

2) Licensing such a thing from Microsoft – if they are even interested – would be expensive and likely add a per unit cost to Mac OS X which feeds Microsoft's coffers and penalizes Mac OS X users that don't even use Windows applications,

3) Supporting Windows application running on such a library would be a nightmare (few application vendors would want to support their applications in such a configuration and neither would Apple),

4) It would give some 3rd party developers more of an excuse to not develop Mac OS X native software and hence could potentially have a negative impact on the Mac OS X software ecosystem (personally I think Mac users generally set higher standards so they would be more likely to demand a native Mac OS X application, either getting the developer to make such a thing or encourage a competitor to do it instead),

5) Running windows applications next to Mac OS X application would degrade the solution and user experience that Apple provides with Mac OS X and its related software families (this is one of the mainstays and mantras),

6) Virtualization will allow the booting of Windows for those that really need it while providing a better separation between Mac OS X and Window... this is far easier for Apple and puts the support issue back onto MS and Window's application developers.

Now as things play out we may see Window's technologies/API come to Mac OS X (aspects of WinFX, WPF, .NET, etc.) that make it easier for Windows developers to bring their applications to Mac OS X.... personally I would love to see Apple make Cocoa available on Vista... which would allow Mac OS X development houses to go after Windows customers.

AidenShaw
Apr 22, 2006, 02:55 PM
And as the upcoming Intel processors will all have 64 (correct me if I'm wrong)
You are correct, all current Intel desktop CPUs are already 64-bit (older 32-bit designs are still being sold, but the current passes of all desktops are 64-bit). Yonah is the only "current" CPU that is 32-bit.

The NGMA chips (Merom/Conroe/Woodcrest...) are 64-bit.

AFAIK, Intel has not said whether the upcoming extremely low power (sub-watt - for PDAs, phones, ...) x86 chips will be 32-bit or 64-bit.

THX1139
Apr 22, 2006, 06:28 PM
You may want to turn on your humor detector and see if you get a read.

OK, I turned it on. Nope...I still don't see the humor. :confused: No offense though, as I seldom laugh at silly things unless I've been drinking. :p

Photorun
Apr 22, 2006, 07:07 PM
OK, I turned it on. Nope...I still don't see the humor. :confused: No offense though, as I seldom laugh at silly things unless I've been drinking. :p

You're clearly then not a true Mac fan because with the rollercoaster ride Apple has had since the beginning sometimes all one has left is a sense of humor.

MrCrowbar
Apr 22, 2006, 07:29 PM
You are correct, all current Intel desktop CPUs are already 64-bit (older 32-bit designs are still being sold, but the current passes of all desktops are 64-bit). Yonah is the only "current" CPU that is 32-bit.

The NGMA chips (Merom/Conroe/Woodcrest...) are 64-bit.

AFAIK, Intel has not said whether the upcoming extremely low power (sub-watt - for PDAs, phones, ...) x86 chips will be 32-bit or 64-bit.

Hmmm... so the next generation of Mac will have true 64 bit... <thinking about not buying one until then :rolleyes: ) > Oh well, I need one now. Still, I can't decide on whether an iMac/Macbook combination or a Macbook Pro. Is it true that you can use slower RAM in the iMac and Macbook Pro than suggested? I read somewhere you can use PC533 too wothout slowing anything down. True?

DavidCar
Apr 22, 2006, 08:05 PM
Ars Technica has a note with a link indicating there was an Apple Woodcrest workstation at IDF, which I assume was the Intel Developer Forum in early March, and that workstation showed eight cores, suggesting two sockets with four cores each. A four core Woodcrest is called a Clovertown, and is pin compatible with Woodcrest.

http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2006/4/22/3712

Correction: It looks like the IDF reference was to an Intel forum in Taipei, Taiwan. So I don't know when the date was. There is a photo in the Ars note that is not in the original New Zealand article, so I don't know where the photo came from, or if it is of the eight core machine.

Correction2: It is also not clear if it was an Apple eight core machine, or an Intel eight core machine. I recall reading some blurb a while back indicating that Intel was contracted by Apple to make the Intel PowerMac (or whatever) motherboard. So it could be an Intel motherboard, but the same or similar to the one Apple will get.

AidenShaw
Apr 22, 2006, 08:20 PM
Hmmm... so the next generation of Mac will have true 64 bit... <thinking about not buying one until then :rolleyes: )
The CPUs either support 64-bit virtual addressing or they don't - there's not a whole of a "grey" in that dimension. Merom/Conroe/Woodcrest are full 64-bit capable CPUs.

The "trueness" of 64-bit is a software question. Can all programs use 64-bit virtual addressing without restrictions?

Currently, Windows 64-bit, Linux 64-bit, UNIX 64-bit (Solaris/AIX/IRIX/HPUX/...) all support mostly unrestricted 64-bit programs. All APIs are 64-bit, all programs can use 64-bit - there are more likely to be restrictions on 32-bit programs than 64-bit programs. It's not unusual, however, for drivers and kernel code to be 64-bit only - no 32-bit allowed in privileged software. (Also, obsolete "legacy" APIs might be 32-bit only.)

OSX 10.4, on the other hand, is a 32-bit operating system with limited support for special 64-bit environments. Terminal apps or services can be 64-bit, but they can't use Carbon or Cocoa or and graphical interfaces.

Windows/Linux/UNIX are true 64-bit, OSX is 32-bit with limited 64-bit support for special processes.
__________________________________________

Apple has been completely silent about 64-bit since last June. Nobody knows what their plans are, or when they may introduce 64-bit support to OSx86. The silence has been deafening.

Many of us are predicting/assuming that they'll abandon the lame 64-bit features of OSX 10.4 and move to true 64-bit (but only for Intel systems).

WWDC'06 this August would be a likely time to announce that 10.5 will be true 64-bit (on Intel only), and that the PowerPC implementation (with the lame extensions) is frozen at 32-bit.

Note that although the Yonah CPU used in MiniMacIntel and the iMacIntel are 32-bit chips, the rest of the current Intel lineup is 64-bit. Even the Intel Developer Transition Kit (DTK) systems released at WWDC'05 last year had 64-bit CPUs that were forced to 32-bit mode.

john123
Apr 22, 2006, 08:42 PM
I cant wait till the 64bit meroms get into the macs. It may convince me to upgrade to a MBP. And we are getting closer to the day when every mac will be 64-bit :cool:

Who cares about 64-bit in a laptop? Even if you top out your MBP with 2GB of RAM, you're still 2GB away from the 4GB limit of traditional 32-bit....

sam10685
Apr 22, 2006, 09:03 PM
this can only be good news for us Apple people... :)

Surreal
Apr 22, 2006, 09:03 PM
Who cares about 64-bit in a laptop? Even if you top out your MBP with 2GB of RAM, you're still 2GB away from the 4GB limit of traditional 32-bit....

before someone goes and reiterates at length, x64 is faster besides being able to address more than 4GB of RAM.

AidenShaw
Apr 22, 2006, 09:18 PM
Who cares about 64-bit in a laptop? Even if you top out your MBP with 2GB of RAM, you're still 2GB away from the 4GB limit of traditional 32-bit....
The Napa chipset used in the MBP and iMacIntel supports 4 GiB of RAM (need two 2 GiB SO-DIMMs).

The other Intel notebook manufacturers are selling Yonah notebooks with 4 GiB - but Apple doesn't yet list the option.

And, not only is x64 faster than x86 - you'll be future-proofed for the day when OSx64-only applications arrive. (And the day when OSX drops 32-bit support completely.)

(ps: "traditional" 32-bit chips like the G4 and x86 support up to 64 GiB of RAM - the 32-bit limit is per application, not a limit for the entire system. Chipset limits may be lower than the limits of the CPUs)

GulGnu
Apr 23, 2006, 04:57 AM
That's tosh if ever I read it.

Why? Let's review your argument:

AMD can't even afford to fully transition their fabs right now to the latest process. By the time they do (get to 65nm) Intel will be looking at 45nm.

Yea, so clearly the argument that AMD is pressuring Intel performance-wise is "tosh" then, no?


Unlike the current generation though AMD may not beat Intel (and conroe) in the high performance stakes this time round, or it will be close.


...but now I get confused - because according to you, Intel is both way ahead in the architecture game (that's why this story is "tosh", remember?), yet also lagging in "the high performance stakes". Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't lagging in performance be like, bad? (Way more relevant than the manufacturing procedure used!) And wouldn't that make this story quite likely to be true, contrary to your assertion?

Hendi
Apr 23, 2006, 09:33 AM
Do you believe Apple can surprise us and put top line core duos in the new Macbooks ? If were talking about in MAcbook Pros upgrade, Core Duos price falling, Conroe and Memrom antecipation, why not a new Macbook Thin 13.3" with 2 ghz and 168 mb video ?

Doesnt sound delicious ?!??!?

Multimedia
Apr 23, 2006, 08:12 PM
Do you believe Apple can surprise us and put top line core duos in the new Macbooks ? If we´re talking about in MAcbook Pro´s upgrade, Core Duo´s price falling, Conroe and Memrom antecipation, why not a new Macbook Thin 13.3" with 2 ghz and 168 mb video ?

Doesn´t sound delicious ?!??!?Also sounds impossible. I don't see MacBooks having Merom before next summer while Intel continues to sell Yonahs for less and less money until they don't have any capacity to make Yonah any more. :) Just another way to differentiate MacBooks from MacBook Pros.

icab
Apr 23, 2006, 09:15 PM
Sorry, I haven't read all the posts on this thread, but based on the thread subject, I figured I'd post this from Computerworld. Could it possibly be a leak?

"Apple customers may be the first to enjoy Intels new CPU goodies, with the Woodcrest family of processors making it into Macintosh workstations as early as the third quarter. Woodcrest systems will be symmetric multi processing (SMP), with dual processors with up to four cores each. One such machine was demonstrated at IDF, running benchmarks under Windows XP 64-bit edition, showing eight active cores."


http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/news/48AAEE3A287A6213CC25714F000230BC

AidenShaw
Apr 23, 2006, 09:27 PM
Sorry, I haven't read all the posts on this thread, but based on the thread subject, I figured I'd post this from Computerworld. Could it possibly be a leak?

"Apple customers may be the first to enjoy Intel’s new CPU goodies, with the Woodcrest family of processors making it into Macintosh workstations as early as the third quarter. Woodcrest systems will be symmetric multi processing (SMP), with dual processors with up to four cores each. One such machine was demonstrated at IDF, running benchmarks under Windows XP 64-bit edition, showing eight active cores."


http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/news/48AAEE3A287A6213CC25714F000230BC
Woodcrest is dual-core.... Not quad core. Therefore one should question any of the "facts" in the article.

And, do you really think that Intel would p#ss off HP/IBM/Dell by giving Apple exclusive first access to anything? What better way to get them to add more AMD systems to their lineup....

Sounds like an article of wishful thinking written by one of the Apple fanbois, not a reasonable or realistic appraisal of Intel's roadmap or Intel's history of equal treatment of their partners.

Morice
Apr 24, 2006, 05:18 AM
I don't think Merom in MacBook Pro is so far away from announcement.
Intel launched its Core Duo line of microprocessors on january the 5th and Apple announced its MacBook Pro on January the 9th. They shipped MBP one month later, but thats acceptable waiting time for Apple.

But as AidenShaw proclaimed many times before, its worthwhile to wait for next generation MBP and Intel's Merom Generation. AMD's Opteron runs on this standard for such a long time. Why buying an overhauled product?

And as Jobs said at macworld: "we want to build the best computers in the world and it became very clear that the way to do that is to use your newest technology you'll rolling out this year".
And I don't think he meant Core Duo (yonah) by saying "rolling out this year".

AidenShaw
Apr 24, 2006, 10:15 AM
And I don't think he meant Core Duo by saying "rolling out this year".
Interesting take on Jobs' statement - although you really mean "Yonah" more than "Core Duo".

Many articles are assuming that Merom will also be called "Core", so that a dual-core Merom might be a "Core Duo T7600".

The "brand name" stretches over several generations of chip architecture. For example, some Pentium 4 chips have Hyper-threading, some don't. Some are 64-bit, some are 32-bit. Some have VT, some don't. A new chip design doesn't require a new name.

Morice
Apr 24, 2006, 10:27 AM
Oh come on, you know what I mean. But what you think about Merom in MacBooks Pro. When its gonna be out in shops?

AidenShaw
Apr 24, 2006, 11:44 AM
Oh come on, you know what I mean. But what you think about Merom in MacBooks Pro. When its gonna be out in shops?
Yes, of course I knew what you meant - but I wanted to point out that Merom won't be replacing the Core Duo, it *will* be a Core Duo.

Q3 (July to September) is just a guess/rumour at this point in time.

Typically, Intel will start shipping chips in volume a month or so before the announcement day - so that manufacturers have systems to show (and sell) on announcement day. By the end of spring (northern) we should be hearing more about this.

pilotError
Apr 27, 2006, 02:34 PM
Otellini said the Woodcrest server chip would ship in June, the Conroe desktop chip in July, and the Merom mobile chip in August. A "very aggressive ramp," Otellini called it in his opening presentation.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/04/27/technology/fastforward_fortune0427intel/index.htm?cnn=yes

DavidCar
Apr 27, 2006, 02:43 PM
http://money.cnn.com/2006/04/27/technology/fastforward_fortune0427intel/index.htm?cnn=yes
Interesting annoucement. I was speculating in the Woodcrest page 2 thread that this may mean that we'll see Woodcrest PowerMacs in June, Conroe iMacs in July, and Merom Powerbooks in August.

MacinDoc
Apr 27, 2006, 04:24 PM
Woodcrest is dual-core.... Not quad core. Therefore one should question any of the "facts" in the article.

And, do you really think that Intel would p#ss off HP/IBM/Dell by giving Apple exclusive first access to anything? What better way to get them to add more AMD systems to their lineup....

Sounds like an article of wishful thinking written by one of the Apple fanbois, not a reasonable or realistic appraisal of Intel's roadmap or Intel's history of equal treatment of their partners.
Did you actually read the article? It's more a summary of the message Intel was trying to get out at IDF than a wish list of a hopeful fanboi - only 1 paragraph even mentions Apple. At the end of the article, it even states that the journalist who wrote it traveled to Taipei for IDF "courtesy of Intel", so the source would seem reasonably credible, although this does not make him/her infallible.

Having said that, I agree with you that I have not seen any evidence that Woodcrest will be any more than dual core, although we also know that Intel is working on quad core chips that will likely come out next year.

silence
May 8, 2006, 06:03 AM
Sorry to deflect away from the argurement here.. but i just have one question for you all.

When these great new chips are released, will I have the option of upgrading my MBP Core Duo with the new processor? (At a realistic price)

I've heard a few rumours that the current processors are soldered on so they cannot be replaced..

Please explain.. :o

DavidCar
May 17, 2006, 08:07 PM
Production Woodcrest chips rumored to take less power than expected.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=31789

absurdio
May 17, 2006, 09:47 PM
Sorry to deflect away from the argurement here.. but i just have one question for you all.

When these great new chips are released, will I have the option of upgrading my MBP Core Duo with the new processor? (At a realistic price)

I've heard a few rumours that the current processors are soldered on so they cannot be replaced..

Please explain.. :o

No, I'm pretty sure you won't have that option. In the Mac Mini, the processor is socketed (i.e. removable/replaceable). In the portables, however, the processors are soldered in place (rather than socketed) because of space considerations. So, no, to the best of my understanding, it's not possible to upgrade the processors in the portables.

octoberdeath
May 18, 2006, 11:42 PM
do you think that the new Macbook Pros will have a quad processor in it? i heard it was going to be crazy like that.

DavidCar
May 19, 2006, 12:05 AM
do you think that the new Macbook Pros will have a quad processor in it? i heard it was going to be crazy like that.
I don't think there are solid reports that the Merom chips designed for portables will go quad core, probably because of power requirements. I could be wrong. We already know the quad Woodcrests will be called Clovertowns, and the quad Conroes will be called Kentsfields.

kansasken
May 19, 2006, 10:30 AM
I am just curious why so much that is on the horizon is always so far superior to now. Why is Merom so spectacular when it probably is only slightly noticably a difference. I reallly agree with the i got several months of use out of yonah and merom isnt in a macbook pro yet way of thinking. A summer shot to @##@ waiting for the latest greatest. The graphics card wont be better most likely. As for the waiting game, that mind boggling miracle may never come. Kansasken.

DavidCar
May 19, 2006, 08:10 PM
This is the GFlops article:

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=31836

48 GFlops for a two socket Woodcrest machine using the "useless" Linpack benchmark.

retroz311
May 27, 2006, 03:16 AM
No, I'm pretty sure you won't have that option. In the Mac Mini, the processor is socketed (i.e. removable/replaceable). In the portables, however, the processors are soldered in place (rather than socketed) because of space considerations. So, no, to the best of my understanding, it's not possible to upgrade the processors in the portables.

I was about to ask the same thing. Has anyone asked, looked into the Macbook?

Certainly, if you can solder, well, there is always the possibility of replacing it at your own risk, but I would think one would do that only if it offered at least a 40-60% gain in performance (for audio (VST/RTAS plugins)) and video users.

Is it any wonder Avid bought M-Audio? They know (warning OFF TOPIC HERE), native power will and is surpassing their hardware based systems.

Shoot, even some of the best plug-in makers out there are developing and have developed ethernet and firewire plug-in units, taking even more load off the CPU.

Amazing stuff!