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MacRumors
May 22, 2006, 02:25 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

first reported ("]CNN Money/Business 2.0[/url] reports that Navio, a Cupertino California startup specializing in DRM technology, is gaining some prestige for their efforts in reverse-engineering Apple's Fairplay DRM technology.

Already, early Navio customers like Fox, Sony BMG Music Entertainment, Walt Disney Internet, Cingular and Verizon Wireless have been experimenting with Navio's software to sell digital content. Disney, for example, will be using Navio to power content sales on its website promoting the Pixar/Disney animated blockbuster Cars.

The report does not elaborate on Steve Jobs' reaction to Disney using Navio, or what his role was in the process surrounding the decision to use Navio's technology.

Navio plans to launch software by the end of June that will allow its customers to distribute copy-protected videos that are compatible with the iPod. Movie and Music studios are apparently eagerly awaiting the arrival of the software.

Hollywood, which has seen Apple rapidly seize control of the paid music-download business, is especially eager for an alternative to iTunes. In fact, they'd like to run their own stores.

Navio's efforts were [url="http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2005/11/20051123101308.shtml) in November 2005. RealNetworks has also attempted to reverse-engineer Fairplay, and has had varied success. This is the first time that any reverse-engineering attempt of Fairplay has seen this level of interest from movie and music studios.

amac4me
May 22, 2006, 02:29 PM
Steve won't be happy given the fact that Navio is getting interest from the movie and music distribution companies. Gotta get that Video iPod out ASAP

840quadra
May 22, 2006, 02:31 PM
Interesting read. I am hoping that the competition from others will keep iTunes prices down when (not if) they start to sell feature movies.

It may be bad for Apple in the long run, but this could also benefit us by offering us more choices for purchasable "pod compatible" videos.

Thataboy
May 22, 2006, 02:31 PM
Time for an iPod Updater!

Jesus
May 22, 2006, 02:35 PM
Steve will not be happy, unless this is all his idea...

:rolleyes:

VanMac
May 22, 2006, 02:38 PM
Competition is good. As long as Apple keeps on top of the 'goodies', people will buy their products (me being one of them).

dizastor
May 22, 2006, 02:40 PM
Of all the places in the world for a competing company to be located... Cupertino. Seems to be more than coincidental to me.

EDIT: Apple HQ - Navio HQ Driving Directions (http://maps.google.com/maps?daddr=20400+Stevens+Creek+Blvd,+Cupertino,+CA+95014+%4037.322684,-122.030402&saddr=1+infinite+loop,+cupertino,+ca&f=li&dq=20400+Stevens+Creek+Blvd,+95014&cid=&om=1)

Less than a mile from the Apple campus also. hmmmm. Suspiscious.

andiwm2003
May 22, 2006, 02:40 PM
so, i'm buying this navio protected videos and songs, put them in my itunes and play them on my ipod.

then, when i buy a new ipod or itunes is updated the navio protected videos won't play anymore because apple changed the drm codes.
at least until navio releases a patch to circumvent the changes apple made.
so i will have hundreds of songs and videos that don't play mixed up with hundreds of songs that will play in my itunes library.

sounds like i'm gonna pass on that one.

Nermal
May 22, 2006, 02:40 PM
Most of the comments so far seem to be positive, yet when Real introduced their iPod-compatible service, most people blasted them. :confused:

I have no problem with either company. More choice is always a good thing.

Pancake
May 22, 2006, 02:46 PM
Am I the only one thinking that the competition of the movie studios/record companies opening their own ipod compatible stores could end up being bad.

Why negotiate down to a fair price on iTunes when you can sell it yourself for a stupid amount?

milatchi
May 22, 2006, 02:47 PM
I've never heard of Navio, and I believe I speak for most when I say that; "If it doesn't work in iTunes or on my iPod, I don't care."

vniow
May 22, 2006, 02:52 PM
Most of the comments so far seem to be positive, yet when Real introduced their iPod-compatible service, most people blasted them. :confused:

Because everyone hates Real.

NitRam Den Gale
May 22, 2006, 02:53 PM
As much as I love Apple, I cant stand DRM! I hope that FairPlay will burn on the stake, and I will certainly not buy music from Apple before it does.

DougTheImpaler
May 22, 2006, 03:00 PM
Because everyone hates Real.
If they didn't release buggy, bloated software - and adware/spyware for Windows - we wouldn't. ;)

Timepass
May 22, 2006, 03:07 PM
Because everyone hates Real.
exactly.

But I still though it was a poor move and a low ball move what apple did to real and if apple does it again to this one they could be getting them selves into more and more legal trouble because things like real and Navio will start being used agaist them showing unfair bussiness pratice.

That being said things would be even worse this time with several big name record and movie people backing it. They can easily pull there support for iTMS and the iPod causing a lot of pain for apple.

Xenious
May 22, 2006, 03:13 PM
Am I the only one thinking that the competition of the movie studios/record companies opening their own ipod compatible stores could end up being bad.

Why negotiate down to a fair price on iTunes when you can sell it yourself for a stupid amount?

That is exactly what I am afraid of. At that point they pull everything from iTunes music store and sell it in their own store and price how they feel. There is no conusmer leverage because they own the whole distribution chain. The only power is when/if consumers object and don't buy, but in the mean time all the content is pulled from the iTunes music store.

I agree competition for Apple is good, just as long as it doesn't give the motion picture companies or record labels any power.

Nastard
May 22, 2006, 03:17 PM
What I get out of this is that their core business will be proving media companies with a way to put their media on an iPod - still protected - without having to go through Apple.

This is a nice idea, but they're still reliant on the company they're supposed to be competing with. Plus, Apple already offers a pretty good deal to content providers via iTMS, and the major reason for the MPAA/RIAA companies to want something else is so that they can charge whatever they want for their content. Nobody is trying to convince Apple to lower their prices.

So what do the media companies get out of it? The ability to charge more. What does the customer get out of it? The ability to pay more.

Bottom line: This will only work if everyone suddenly wants to pay more for music and videos/movies than what Apple charges, and only if Apple doesn't release required upgrades that break Navio's DRM.

Unless I'm missing something, this is a terrible idea from a company destined to be forgotten.

BoyBach
May 22, 2006, 03:21 PM
That being said things would be even worse this time with several big name record and movie people backing it. They can easily pull there support for iTMS and the iPod causing a lot of pain for apple.

I'm not going to say it will never happen, but, it'll never happen!

Apple have already proven to the music and TV companies that the iTunes model works for them more than it does for Apple. Jobs can use the 'piracy stick' on any music companies that threaten to leave; 1 billion legal downloads/sales or 1 billion illegal downloads?

Nastard
May 22, 2006, 03:22 PM
But I still though it was a poor move and a low ball move what apple did to real and if apple does it again to this one they could be getting them selves into more and more legal trouble because things like real and Navio will start being used agaist them showing unfair bussiness pratice.


The DMCA, as much as I may hate it, may actually protect Apple in this case. By breaking or copying the DRM, these companies would likely find themselves in violation; a point which Apple would likely not raise unless it goes to court.

Then again, I'm no lawyer.

macgyver2
May 22, 2006, 03:26 PM
Of all the places in the world for a competing company to be located... Cupertino. Seems to be more than coincidental to me.

EDIT: Apple HQ - Navio HQ Driving Directions (http://maps.google.com/maps?daddr=20400+Stevens+Creek+Blvd,+Cupertino,+CA+95014+%4037.322684,-122.030402&saddr=1+infinite+loop,+cupertino,+ca&f=li&dq=20400+Stevens+Creek+Blvd,+95014&cid=&om=1)

Less than a mile from the Apple campus also. hmmmm. Suspiscious.
LOL, their idea of "reverse engineering" must be something along the lines of "let's case the joint then wait until the time is right to break in and steal the code".

kahos
May 22, 2006, 03:35 PM
I thought reverse engineering a company's intellectual property was illegal :confused:

puuukeey
May 22, 2006, 03:49 PM
This just in apple ceases support all third party products. Steve Jobs commented, "the V.smile learning system is going DOWN"

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00023JJOS.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

maverick18x
May 22, 2006, 03:57 PM
But I still though it was a poor move and a low ball move what apple did to real and if apple does it again to this one they could be getting them selves into more and more legal trouble because things like real and Navio will start being used agaist them showing unfair bussiness pratice.


There is nothing illigal about having a closed hardware-software system like Apple does. ( Well maybe in France :p ) Just because you may consider it "mean" or unethical, it doesn't mean it's illegal.

Timepass
May 22, 2006, 04:01 PM
There is nothing illigal about having a closed hardware-software system like Apple does. ( Well maybe in France :p ) Just because you may consider it "mean" or unethical, it doesn't mean it's illegal.


never said it was illigal. Unethical maybe.

A M$ type of move yes.

VanNess
May 22, 2006, 04:11 PM
The good news: At least in this article the studios/labels don't express any interest in Microsoft's DRM, which Microsoft seems determined to keep locked into the Windows OS.

Well that's it for the good news, now for the bad:

First, in terms of competition for Apple, so far there hasn't been any, just the usual pathetic, non-innovative, knock-off de jour of iTunes from a host of media and software companies that should have known better. Worse, the studios/labels idea of "competition" usually boils down to higher consumer prices and greater, more restrictive DRM.

Second, no matter how interesting the technology, any company that wants to inject itself into the DRM business and target the iPod has to be insane to try and go forward without having Apple's (read: S. Job's) expressed consent to do so. Apple will always insist that the key to it's success (particularly with the iPod) in the media business is the tightly integrated ecosystem that it developed around iTunes, the Music Store, and the iPod. Targeting the iPod alone (either by a competing player or by a DRM gateway) is satisfying at best only 1/3 of the consumer experience Apple has established. Software (iTunes) and access to media (the Music Store) are carelessly glossed over by the roster of instant wannabes who apparently still have a terribly myopic view of how Apple achieved it's success with the iPod. And no one is more keenly aware of that than Apple.

Right now, Navio is a hardware/software update away from being a footnote in DRM technology history. Trying to do an end-around (reverse engineering or otherwise) to the iPod in order to pitch your product to media content providers isn't going to go very far without Apple's expressed blessing.

In order to get Apple's blessing (not to mention interest), I think you're going to have show Apple in no uncertain terms that you are going to add value to Apple existing business. No one to date has apparently done that and it doesn't look like anyone has spent a microsecond trying. That's okay if you have a spectacular concept waiting in the wings that would make the iPod/Music Store/iTunes system look pale by comparison, but no one has come close to that. In the final analysis, it just doesn't look like anyone is interested in competing with Apple, at least in real-world terms. All that's left is the me-too crowd, and they don't have a clue, let alone any original ideas.

macFanDave
May 22, 2006, 04:20 PM
Navio is no different than DVD Jon. What they are doing is clearly illegal (even before the DCMA) and Apple will wait until the opportune moment to bring down the hammer of righteousness!

I sense that Steve is letting Disney walk into the trap, and once Disney has made significant coin on Navio-laced products, he will pull the trigger and be able to take over Disney without spending a cent.

Stridder44
May 22, 2006, 04:39 PM
so, i'm buying this navio protected videos and songs, put them in my itunes and play them on my ipod.

then, when i buy a new ipod or itunes is updated the navio protected videos won't play anymore because apple changed the drm codes.
at least until navio releases a patch to circumvent the changes apple made.
so i will have hundreds of songs and videos that don't play mixed up with hundreds of songs that will play in my itunes library.

sounds like i'm gonna pass on that one.


Agreed! And what the hell isn't getting past Apple's DRM kind of illegal?? Did I miss something!??

min_t
May 22, 2006, 04:42 PM
Navio circumvents drm.
Movie and recording studios license the technology for their own download service.
Apples sues everyone under DMCA
Apple wins
Aaah, the sweet taste of irony.

Linito
May 22, 2006, 04:46 PM
Perfect time for apple to ditch the ipod and create a Newton with media capacities (origami killer). Lets see creative against that!:D

Love the ipod but don't believe it will live much longer:rolleyes:

LethalWolfe
May 22, 2006, 04:49 PM
never said it was illigal. Unethical maybe.

A M$ type of move yes.

Well you did say that it could get them into "...more and more legal trouble..."

An MS type of move would be to threaten retailers w/increased iPod wholesale prices of the retailers refused to anything other than iPods. What Apple is doing now is no different than what video game console makers have been doing for 20 years.


Lethal

dizastor
May 22, 2006, 05:15 PM
Perfect time for apple to ditch the ipod and create a Newton with media capacities (origami killer).


ROFLMAO.

Origami Killer? That's funny.
Has Origami proven successful enough for someone to launch a competitor?

Morpheus_
May 22, 2006, 05:34 PM
/agree, this does sound illegal under the DMCA. (Yes, DMCA, not DCMA. It's the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, not the Digital Copyright Millennium Act). It is not illegal before the DMCA - reverse engineering is legal as long as it is done properly (wikipedia: clean room design (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design)). However, the DMCA would seem to make reverse-engineering DRM illegal.

However, if you read the the relevant US law code (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode17/usc_sec_17_00001201----000-.html) for this, you'll note that it primarily deals with circumvention. It is likely possible to reverse engineer Fairplay while not breaking the DMCA, although clearly it is a fine line. However, Apple could only "blow the whistle" on Navio, not sue them, because Navio would have to be investigated and charged by the US Department of Justice. However, Navio could be sued for patent infringement if Apple has any patents on any part of the Fairplay DRM.

Either way, Navio is certainly balancing on a fine line between Apple and the US Govt. More than likely there will be litigation on one side or the other in the not-too-distant future.

Disclaimer: IANAL, but I play one on the Internet. :D

Mr Skills
May 22, 2006, 06:31 PM
Well in terms of the iTunes business this might not be great for Apple, but in terms of the iPod business it's great - if this becomes the accepted alternative to FairPlay it will all but kill competition from WMA. And since iTunes is almost a loss leader for iPod anyway, I'd rate this a big positive.

It's interesting that Disney are involved with them... could there be some tacit aproval from Mr Jobs in here somewhere?

dongmin
May 22, 2006, 06:42 PM
ROFLMAO.

Origami Killer? That's funny.
Has Origami proven successful enough for someone to launch a competitor?
Haven't you heard? Origami is the Next Big Thing. Just like tablet PCs. And subscription-based music services.

portent
May 22, 2006, 07:45 PM
My biggest worry is that Apple is missing an opportunity here. Not every company wants to sell their content as a download on the iTunes Music Store.

What if a company wants to distribute an iPod-compatible movie on CD or DVD? Or give it away free, but restrict copying?

This other company feels that there's an untapped market there.
I thought reverse engineering a company's intellectual property was illegal :confused:
Nope. It does, sometimes, violate the "user agreement" of certain products, but there is no law preventing reverse engineering, except in the specific case of patented products. [EDIT: And for the purposes of duplicating copy-protected work]

Navio is no different than DVD Jon. What they are doing is clearly illegal (even before the DCMA) and Apple will wait until the opportune moment to bring down the hammer of righteousness!
DVD Jon was trying to "break into" copyrighted material. These people are trying to "protect" copyrighted material.

zzal
May 22, 2006, 08:25 PM
But, sorry, you can't hear that. You already know too much. . .
Pif!
;)

dr_lha
May 22, 2006, 08:27 PM
All this ************ about reverse engineering Fairplay and the like, there's a really easy way for companies to sell stuff for the iPod and many other digital devices that wouldn't involve a potential to both (a) be prosecuted under the DRM and (b) enter into lengthy legal battle with Apple. What is this "other way" you might ask?

Simple: Sell stuff without DRM. It will work on everything.

It won't increase copying of stuff, everything you'd possibly want to download unprotected is already out there and easy to get. DRM doesn't stop anything other than normal people being able to access the music/movies/tv shows they've legally bought.

Note: I've bought much stuff from the iTunes Music Store, so I'm not a big anti-DRM zealot. I just think if companies ditched the DRM, they'd realise that it was the easiest way to break the back of the iTMS and Apple's stranglehold on digital music sales.

cgc
May 22, 2006, 09:29 PM
Agreed! And what the hell isn't getting past Apple's DRM kind of illegal?? Did I miss something!??
Give Apple a couple days to form the lawyers into a mob and storm Navio's HQ.

scotto07
May 22, 2006, 09:50 PM
Because everyone hates Real.
True, True

reyesmac
May 22, 2006, 09:54 PM
As long as Apple tries to go it alone and keep all the profits they will always be copied and overpowered. People get rich (or try to) using Microsoft technologies because Microsoft licenses them out. Microsoft wins if they win or lose. Apple does not license anything. What incentive is there for other companies to help promote Apples products if they cant make some money while doing it.
Being the dominant player in the digital media market is something they can lose if they are too closed minded. They should have made a way of selling companies the ability to have iTunes-like stores for themselves, based on Apple technology. A program like the kinds of enterprise programs MS has. Once something is as popular as the ITMS it is only a matter of time before someone else finds a way to make money off of it and now Apple cant benefit from it as much as it could if it would have licensed the technology themselves.

AidenShaw
May 22, 2006, 09:59 PM
Because everyone hates Real.
What a bunch of crap.

Only the people who've used Real products hate Real!

ncook06
May 22, 2006, 10:15 PM
I gave this a positive because it seems like it will push Apple to be better about updates. Also, price wars are never bad for the consumer :p

1984
May 22, 2006, 11:20 PM
I gave this a positive because it seems like it will push Apple to be better about updates. Also, price wars are never bad for the consumer :p

It's bad for consumers when the studios control the whole process from creation to distribution. Apple has already been fighting the studios tooth and nail in order to keep prices at 99 cents. If studios get complete control it won't simply be Apple that is cut out of the loop. Everyone will be cut out. Then there will be no competition at all.

Stridder44
May 22, 2006, 11:41 PM
What a bunch of crap.

Only the people who've used Real products hate Real!


http://plig.org/things/pictures/tn/real-buffering.med.jpg

/Obligatory

octoberdeath
May 22, 2006, 11:42 PM
It's bad for consumers when the studios control the whole process from creation to distribution. Apple has already been fighting the studios tooth and nail in order to keep prices at 99 cents. If studios get complete control it won't simply be Apple that is cut out of the loop. Everyone will be cut out. Then there will be no competition at all.


price isn't the only thing studios would control. they would also sell a lesser quality product for cheap, while selling a higher quality product for a premium. so people will see the price and get the lesser version and not even realize it. apple has done a great job, just like everything else, keeping a standard of quality at a great price.

Lollypop
May 23, 2006, 12:21 AM
I agree that apple should open the itms up a little bit, who knows, the movie studios might bite then, they might not be against selling digital versions of their movies, they might just be against selling it from a certain point owned and controlled by only one company.

Apple could allow itms "partner companies" to negotiate deals with movie studios and international recording companies and bring the whole bunch to a central apple controlled storefront, that way everyone wins, if the pricing structure fails that "partner company" wont sell anything, the movie studio wont sell and apple will stil have had a library that looks impressive and interates well with itunes and the ipod and have it all legal. If the partner company does a good job at negitiating quality and price of content they win, the studios win and apple wins. Take a clue from MS someday apple!

solvs
May 23, 2006, 01:40 AM
It may be bad for Apple in the long run
Why would it? Apple doesn't sell a whole lot of movies (1 last I checked), but this could help them sell even more iPods if it works. Even if they did start selling more movies, they can point to this as competition if anyone starts screaming monopoly (which it isn't any more than video games for consoles, and duh, you don't have to buy iTunes to use your iPod, and vice-versa). They could even license it to them officially for a small fee and claim they don't support it if it doesn't work.

I hated the Real thing because of the way they went about it and because, as V said, Real sux.

Evangelion
May 23, 2006, 03:06 AM
Am I the only one thinking that the competition of the movie studios/record companies opening their own ipod compatible stores could end up being bad.

Why negotiate down to a fair price on iTunes when you can sell it yourself for a stupid amount?

What makes you think it couldn't be vice-versa? What if you want to sell your stuff for cheap to iPods out there, but iTunes charges loads of money for the privilege? It could happen

barstard
May 23, 2006, 03:28 AM
What a bunch of crap.

Only the people who've used Real products hate Real!

Lol! I needed that. Nothing like a read of MacRumors to make me get over my day at work.

Seriously though, this could definitely go either way. If this takes off, Apple will struggle in any future movie store. Apple really needs to license their Fairplay technology to a couple of other companies, because they get license money AND could still stipulate iPod only movies (Any computer of course, but ipod for devices, it could still be a seller for the ipod).

barstard.

bigandy
May 23, 2006, 03:53 AM
it's only just coming up to 10am here, but this thread has really made me wake up. by making me laugh so much at that realnetworks "buffering" picture that i slipped off my chair and hit my head on the filing cabinet next to me. :rolleyes:

Bonte
May 23, 2006, 04:37 AM
Its a good thing, i hope Apple doesn't stop it with an iPod update. iTunes won't be carrying all digital content available on the internet, its nice when do when the iPod/iTunes can play all digital content available on the internet.

kresh
May 23, 2006, 04:40 AM
Apple has said many times that it is a hardware company and that iTunes and ITMS were only to drive iPod sales. Apple was not even worried about making lots of money off of ITMS , so long as they sold the players.

I know Apple has never licensed Fairplay, but I am not sure they will be opposed to Navio. If you can buy content from 20 different places, all working only on the iPod, that might not be a bad thing for Apple.

I think Apple would be alot more worried if someone reverse engineered a device that played Fairplay DRM protected content. That would be bad. From what I get out of this, this is not the case.

Stridder44
May 23, 2006, 04:59 AM
it's only just coming up to 10am here, but this thread has really made me wake up. by making me laugh so much at that realnetworks "buffering" picture that i slipped off my chair and hit my head on the filing cabinet next to me. :rolleyes:


Just doin our job sir :cool:

Kelmon
May 23, 2006, 05:50 AM
I'm not sure if this solution will work unless Apple effectively allows it to be used else. However, I am very much in favor of the principal that I should be able to buy my media from whomever I want to and access it however I want to. As much as I like Apple, I am not a fan of the "thou shalt use iTMS, iTunes and iPod" position. I'd very much like to be able to buy from any music store and playback the music through any software/hardware player of my choice. At the moment I do buy music and videos (well, a couple of the Pixar ones since there's no television outside of the US yet...*hint* *hint*) via the iTMS but I am immensely aware that I cannot play this music back using anything other than iTunes and an iPod, or using an AirPort Express. Nice options and all but given the gammut of devices and potential devices for playback/management, this is terribly restrictive. While I still prefer iTunes to other software applications I am acutely aware that should Apple manage to drop the ball in the future then I won't be able to use an alternative player. Given that I've bought the music and, therefore, technically own the music, I do think it kinda sucks that I don't have the luxury of being able to decide how I should enjoy it. I'm not trying to do anything illegal with the music bought but yet I feel almost like I am being treated like a criminal by being completely locked-in to Apple's products.

Lollypop
May 23, 2006, 06:31 AM
Apple has said many times that it is a hardware company and that iTunes and ITMS were only to drive iPod sales. Apple was not even worried about making lots of money off of ITMS , so long as they sold the players.

I know Apple has never licensed Fairplay, but I am not sure they will be opposed to Navio. If you can buy content from 20 different places, all working only on the iPod, that might not be a bad thing for Apple.

I think Apple would be alot more worried if someone reverse engineered a device that played Fairplay DRM protected content. That would be bad. From what I get out of this, this is not the case.


Well where does OS X, iLife and all the pro apps come into the hardware picture? Currently apple can pressure the music industry into keeping the prices low, with each movie studio being able to sell from their own store they controll price, thats not good!

wnurse
May 23, 2006, 06:52 AM
Navio is no different than DVD Jon. What they are doing is clearly illegal (even before the DCMA) and Apple will wait until the opportune moment to bring down the hammer of righteousness!

I sense that Steve is letting Disney walk into the trap, and once Disney has made significant coin on Navio-laced products, he will pull the trigger and be able to take over Disney without spending a cent.

DVD jon broke apple fairplay. Navio is reverse engineering it. Totally different.
It's one thing to circumvent a DRM, it's another to reverse engineer it.

wnurse
May 23, 2006, 06:55 AM
Navio circumvents drm.
Movie and recording studios license the technology for their own download service.
Apples sues everyone under DMCA
Apple wins
Aaah, the sweet taste of irony.

Navio is not circumventing the DRM. In fact, Navio will play content encoded in a DRM (their version of fairplay). I seriously doubt Apple can sue them and win. They could try but it is legal to reverse engineer a technology.

imikem
May 23, 2006, 07:46 AM
agree, this does sound illegal under the DMCA. (Yes, DMCA, not DCMA. It's the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, not the Digital Copyright Millennium Act).:D

DCMA might be a more descriptive arrangement of the acronym. It looks like copyright is well on the way to being extended to a millennium or so. :eek: :mad:

jakeOSX
May 23, 2006, 08:06 AM
the deal is not to do anything to Fairplay. The idea is to have an independent DRM system so the files themselves don't really care where they are. So you could buy a song and play it on an iPod, or a Zen, or your computer, or your phone, etc.

so instead of itunes + ipod = vendor lock in, it is music + your stuff = happy customer.

cwoloszynski
May 23, 2006, 08:24 AM
It seems like Apple has already set up a mechanism for folks to buy content through iTunes by the Podcasting interface. It can already load video (I get MacTV that way). If people used Navio's engine, couldn't they then get DRM'd content through a Podcast channel?

Wouldn't that allow Apple to maintain their user experience, allow independent suppliers to sell DRM'd content, and continue to boost iPod sales?

I don't think that Navio is bad for Apple; I think that Apple needs to open up the Podcasting model to position themselves to allow indies to use their channel with DRM to meet everyone's needs. And iPod sales will continue to soar!

heisetax
May 23, 2006, 08:55 AM
so, i'm buying this navio protected videos and songs, put them in my itunes and play them on my ipod.

then, when i buy a new ipod or itunes is updated the navio protected videos won't play anymore because apple changed the drm codes.
at least until navio releases a patch to circumvent the changes apple made.
so i will have hundreds of songs and videos that don't play mixed up with hundreds of songs that will play in my itunes library.

sounds like i'm gonna pass on that one.


Some will choose to pass on the iPod. I know I am not happy as to all of the difficulty I have in playing my music from my iPod on my different computers. Because of the low quality of the music on the iTunes Music Store or any of the other online music stores I only have music downloaded from my CD collection on my iPod. All of this trouble just makes me wonder why I purchased an iPod in the first place.

The many recording studios know that it is not in their best interest to have only one supplier. They still want to support Apples version since it is the largest. They just want & need more than one source for their sales.

LethalWolfe
May 23, 2006, 09:24 AM
Well where does OS X, iLife and all the pro apps come into the hardware picture?
They sell Macs. Apple's profit margins reside in selling hardware, not software.


Lethal

orbital
May 23, 2006, 09:56 AM
Apple has to tread a fine line here. If they prevent Navio from developing this the Media companies might just switch to the Windows DRM and sell stuff under WMP 11. I think that that is one of the reasons that Apple has yet to address this.

I think though it will hurt apple a little in that it won't be participating in the sales. But then again once Navio develops the DRM whose to say that Apple might just buy them.

Navio does have one big hurdle as mentioned what if apple, rather than sueing just comes out with a newer ipod video with a new fresher DRM? Then the must have device won't be compatable with Navio. Also I think that you need to download something from Navio... at least that is what it looks like on their site.

Also look at Navio's model of "future-proof" yeah its very consummer friendly but companies want to charge you for every version possible not allow you to buy a DVD then trade it in 2 years later for the Blu Ray version. This is seen in DVD rot. Built into every DVD is a life expectancy of 10 years, after that point the DVD will start to deteriorate. This is to force consummers to upgrade. I hardly see this going anyware.

Yvan256
May 23, 2006, 10:25 AM
Apple has to tread a fine line here. If they prevent Navio from developing this the Media companies might just switch to the Windows DRM and sell stuff under WMP 11. I think that that is one of the reasons that Apple has yet to address this.

Isn't it strange that we hear about Navio a few days after Microsoft announced WMP11? And isn't it also strange that Navio are located a few km from Apple?

In any case, anything that further prevents the spread of Windows Media is a good thing. ;)

weg
May 23, 2006, 10:43 AM
Steve won't be happy given the fact that Navio is getting interest from the movie and music distribution companies. Gotta get that Video iPod out ASAP

My impression is that music industry takes the major part of the $0.99 of each song. Therefore, neither Disney nor Apple have any control over the price (they could change it by a few cents, but not more). Therefore, the better service will make the race. If Disney comes up with a music store that provides songs for all MP3 players, including the iPod, AND a nice user interface for that store, then they are able take it up with Apple.

kingtj
May 23, 2006, 10:53 AM
What it boils down to, really, is Apple creating a proprietary model for using music with their own devices - and jealous competitors wanting to force their music onto Apple's player rather than try to compete with their own hardware/software combo.

This is going to be no more sensible or doable than, say, starting a competing satellite TV business that puts up its own satellites but instructs you to "re-aim your existing Dish Network dish" and reuse their receiver equipment, rather then selling you another receiver and dish. Someone could, of course, do such a thing, with enough effort. But Dish wouldn't care for it, and obviously would release new hardware that circumvents their efforts whenever possible.

Of course, the option has *always* been there to sell music with no DRM on it at all, and then iPods will play it just fine. But the recording industry still isn't ready to accept that business model. Extremely silly, IMHO - because I buy my 99 cent tracks for the sake of "instant gratification" and "convenience" ... Wouldn't change a bit, DRM or not. It's simply more than 99 cents worth of hassle to go find someone else who bought the same song you want and to get them to give you a copy of theirs!


The good news: At least in this article the studios/labels don't express any interest in Microsoft's DRM, which Microsoft seems determined to keep locked into the Windows OS.

Well that's it for the good news, now for the bad:

First, in terms of competition for Apple, so far there hasn't been any, just the usual pathetic, non-innovative, knock-off de jour of iTunes from a host of media and software companies that should have known better. Worse, the studios/labels idea of "competition" usually boils down to higher consumer prices and greater, more restrictive DRM.

Second, no matter how interesting the technology, any company that wants to inject itself into the DRM business and target the iPod has to be insane to try and go forward without having Apple's (read: S. Job's) expressed consent to do so. Apple will always insist that the key to it's success (particularly with the iPod) in the media business is the tightly integrated ecosystem that it developed around iTunes, the Music Store, and the iPod. Targeting the iPod alone (either by a competing player or by a DRM gateway) is satisfying at best only 1/3 of the consumer experience Apple has established. Software (iTunes) and access to media (the Music Store) are carelessly glossed over by the roster of instant wannabes who apparently still have a terribly myopic view of how Apple achieved it's success with the iPod. And no one is more keenly aware of that than Apple.

Right now, Navio is a hardware/software update away from being a footnote in DRM technology history. Trying to do an end-around (reverse engineering or otherwise) to the iPod in order to pitch your product to media content providers isn't going to go very far without Apple's expressed blessing.

In order to get Apple's blessing (not to mention interest), I think you're going to have show Apple in no uncertain terms that you are going to add value to Apple existing business. No one to date has apparently done that and it doesn't look like anyone has spent a microsecond trying. That's okay if you have a spectacular concept waiting in the wings that would make the iPod/Music Store/iTunes system look pale by comparison, but no one has come close to that. In the final analysis, it just doesn't look like anyone is interested in competing with Apple, at least in real-world terms. All that's left is the me-too crowd, and they don't have a clue, let alone any original ideas.