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amac4me
May 25, 2006, 11:13 AM
Interesting ... when your MacBook is shipped, a piece of plastic is actually blocking a vent.

Be sure to check this out:
MacBook's Vent Blocked (http://gertstahl.blogspot.com/2006/05/macbooks-vent-blocked.html)

Be sure to check out the photos. If you have a MacBook, you'll want to check if the plastic is blocking the vent. An interesting discovery.

66217
May 25, 2006, 11:24 AM
Anyone else have seen this plastic?

noelister
May 25, 2006, 11:31 AM
Which should have started happening to these (just another) MacBook Temperature threads awhile ago.

Starting to feel like the old freeipod threads, just so many they are annoying now.

I think it is a good post. He is just trying to help others out.

noelister
May 25, 2006, 12:43 PM
Looks like this made its way over to Engadget.com

TallShaffer
May 25, 2006, 12:46 PM
I didn't have the plastic on mine, I just spent 5 minutes starting at that portion to find plastic, started to scrape at it, too.

Nothing.

longofest
May 25, 2006, 02:40 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

The mac web has taken note of an observant MacBook owner (http://gertstahl.blogspot.com/2006/05/macbooks-vent-blocked.html) who found at least part of the reason why his MacBook was running so hot. Apparently, some MacBooks are shipping with the rear vent (between the base and the screen hinge) blocked by a piece of plastic. Removing the plastic allowed air to circulate correctly and lowered operating temperatures dramatically.

While some users report having found the plastic, others report not finding the plastic, so mileage may vary.

quigleybc
May 25, 2006, 02:52 PM
Sigh....

when will these heat issues for the new Laptops subside? Everyone gets all excited about the new books, then they all get burned....

How bad is it this time? :rolleyes:

pianodude123
May 25, 2006, 02:53 PM
This probably doesnt apply to the Macbook Pro as well?

Maybe thats what the extra 900$ is for. For more thorough checking so that silly stupid errors like these dont happen any more.

I assume we will see a post in their support section soon about this issue.

Thats a shame.

chrisgeleven
May 25, 2006, 02:57 PM
I am going to check mine when I get home.

Has anyone here found this yet? Is it really easy to notice or do you really have to look around for the piece of plastic? How easy is it to remove?

Dr.Gargoyle
May 25, 2006, 02:58 PM
If Apple keeps up with this, they will ruin their reputation.
Faster machines that will roast your scrotum at the same time...

notjustjay
May 25, 2006, 03:03 PM
While some users report having found the plastic, others report not finding the plastic, so mileage may vary.

Er... actually, I can't find anyone else other than the original blogger who reported having found the plastic film on their vents...

zapp
May 25, 2006, 03:07 PM
Which should have started happening to these (just another) MacBook Temperature threads awhile ago.

Starting to feel like the old freeipod threads, just so many they are annoying now.

I took mine apart today, Here is what it looked like with the old thermal paste.

http://web.mac.com/zappone/iWeb/Site/Macbook.html


I am still waiting for my free iPod???

amacgenius
May 25, 2006, 03:07 PM
I didn't see this on my MacBook, I wonder if he just got one where the worker decided to give him a hotter laptop than normal ;).

Stridder44
May 25, 2006, 03:10 PM
Dear Diary,


Today I learned that Rev. A computers are fun......

Abulia
May 25, 2006, 03:19 PM
While some users report having found the plastic, others report not finding the plastic, so mileage may vary."Some users?"

Name one other than the original blogger who wrote the post and shared the pics. I've seen no reports that this -- like the black MacBook paint flaking -- is anything other than a single, isolated incident.

Atlasland
May 25, 2006, 03:20 PM
Dear Diary,


Today I learned that Rev. A computers are fun......

When will people learn... Rev A computers just don't work!

NinjaMonkey
May 25, 2006, 03:27 PM
Some people over at Digg have commented they indeed have the plastic on their MacBooks so it is not just one person with this problem.

It seems the majority of MacBook owners however don't have the plastic.

longofest
May 25, 2006, 03:27 PM
Er... actually, I can't find anyone else other than the original blogger who reported having found the plastic film on their vents...

Read through the comments on the digg.com story:
http://www.digg.com/apple/MacBook_vent_blocked

teksmex69
May 25, 2006, 03:28 PM
Which should have started happening to these (just another) MacBook Temperature threads awhile ago.

Starting to feel like the old freeipod threads, just so many they are annoying now.

don't read them.

t

MacVault
May 25, 2006, 03:31 PM
How soon can we expect a rev B MacBook? Would that be the "6th month" cycle? Or is Apple known to fix problems in a month or two after rev A?

Davenport
May 25, 2006, 03:31 PM
"Some users?"

Name one other than the original blogger who wrote the post and shared the pics. I've seen no reports that this -- like the black MacBook paint flaking -- is anything other than a single, isolated incident.

There are a few people that left comments on Digg.com that had the plastic as well.

mmmcheese
May 25, 2006, 03:32 PM
I took mine apart today, Here is what it looked like with the old thermal paste.

http://web.mac.com/zappone/iWeb/Site/Macbook.html


I am still waiting for my free iPod???

Your old paste looks fine...about the same as any OEM computer you'll find that uses paste instead of a pad.

Abulia
May 25, 2006, 03:33 PM
Read through the comments on the digg.com story:
http://www.digg.com/apple/MacBook_vent_blocked
I stand corrected, then.

Macnoviz
May 25, 2006, 03:59 PM
Sigh....

when will these heat issues for the new Laptops subside? Everyone gets all excited about the new books, then they all get burned....

How bad is it this time? :rolleyes:

This is not a heat issue. The Macbook is as hot as it is allowed to get, but these reports are not about a flaw in the design that burns your legs, but a simple error of some employee not removing all plastic from the laptop he is assembling. Maybe because of the time pressure, if you believe Thinksecret, who first reported May 9, later May 16 due to shortage of stock. This leads to a lot of stress, especially with Steve Jobs breathing down your neck.

By the way, who is rating this positive? I know it also gives you a solution, but since when is an easily solvable problem a good thing?

arn
May 25, 2006, 04:32 PM
Update: Meanwhile, due to the controversy surrounding the excess Thermal Paste, MacDevCenter disassembled their MacBook Pro to see if reducing the Thermal Paste would indeed cause a significant change in the running temperature. Contrary to other anecdotal reports, they found there was only a 2 degree difference in temperatures before and after the extensive disassembly.

thejadedmonkey
May 25, 2006, 04:37 PM
Update: Meanwhile, despite the controversy surrounding the excess Thermal Paste, MacDevCenter disassembled their MacBook Pro to see if reducing the Thermal Paste would indeed cause a significant change in the running temperature. Contrary to other anecdotal reports, they found there was only a 2 degree difference in temperatures before and after the extensive disassembly.
So in conclusion, MacBooks just run hot....sorta like how my car's temp guage gets into the red when it's idiling on the freeway while I'm stuck in a traffic jam, the only difference being that MacBooks aren't supposed to come off as 14 year old pieces of crap

Seriously Apple, I sure hope you get all these heat/moo/whine/display issues figured out before I start looking to get a MacBook (pro) once Leapord is out.

faintember
May 25, 2006, 04:41 PM
^^^Arn's post about the guys over at MacDevCenter is an interesting one. Nothing like taking an external temperature reading after running both cores at 100%. Either way, my MB idles at 56° and hits 80° under 100% CPU load for 10 mins. Seems quite acceptable. I plan on doing a comparison of the temp readings i am getting today vs. tomorrow after i get my 7200rpm HD installed.

Also no plastic covering the vents on mine, which is a good thing!

Edit: Link to the MacDevCenter MBP thermal paste test (http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2006/05/23/thermal-paste-question.html?page=1)

Core Trio
May 25, 2006, 04:45 PM
What were all those posts about people getting 'amazing results' after applying their own layer of artic silver?

Either these 'amazing results' are utter bs, or whoever did the test from this post did almost as bad a job as apple.

MrCrowbar
May 25, 2006, 04:45 PM
I don't have any plastic on my Macbook. Seems fine so far. The only things I could complain about is that the return key is slightly turned compared to the other keys (by half a degree or something, but you can see it). Oh yea, it's "whining" when idling (it's silent when I open apps and makes a different stuff when moving the mouse etc). This is a common issue on most computers, portable or not. I guess it's audible on my Macbook because it's otherwise silent . I'd say it has to do something with interrupts because of the sound beeing... well... interrupted very quickly when musing the mouse.

Put your ear closely to your Macbook (next to the F6 key) and move the mouse across the dock so it magnifies the icons. Tell me if you hear those sounds. Again, I had this on a lot of computers this far, some of which you could only hear it when recording audio with the internal sound card. This works with phones or other complex devices too. Just hold them very closely to your ear and hear the difference between the device idling and the device doing stuff. You can also put them next to a electric guitar pickup with the amp on to hear them, but please, don't do that last one with devices with a hard drive (including any computer).

UPDATE: The "whining" I described seems to come partly from the external power. I held my power brick to on ear and found similar noises exactly in sync witht the noises from the Macbook. But the "interrupt" sound are still there when runninfg ony battery. :-( Why do I have such good ears anyway to hear this stuff across the room... I should go to more concerts and bury my head into the speakers :D

Some_Big_Spoon
May 25, 2006, 04:48 PM
I've got a 2.0, 2GB, 120GB HD White MB waiting for me at home when I get back from Hawaii and every day I read a little more about all of the little quirks I'm going to have to get used to.. ugh.

Every time I make a resolution about not buying anything till Rev. C, I break it 1/2 second after the Store comes back up.

My own damn fault I'd say. :rolleyes:

Cybergypsy
May 25, 2006, 04:52 PM
There is NO heat issue, i bought 2 so far and use them all day, THEY DO NOT GET HOT!

AppleMatt
May 25, 2006, 04:54 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

The front page is wrong. There wasn't a 2 degree difference before and after, because he didn't measure the temperature before. There was a 2 degree difference between his modified machine and his friends stock. Which is way within the margin of error, so the whole article was pointless.

God knows why he didn't do this.

AppleMatt

faintember
May 25, 2006, 04:58 PM
The front page is wrong. There wasn't a 2 degree difference before and after, because he didn't measure the temperature before. There was a 2 degree difference between his modified machine and his friends stock. Which is way within the margin of error, so the whole article was pointless.I wish they had done before/after tests, but come on, look at the CPU before the thermal paste re-application. There was enough paste on the CPUs for 3 MBP. Seems like a decent test, and one of the few that i have seen using a IR temperature gun.

However i would like some IR temp. readings on the MB.

tny
May 25, 2006, 05:01 PM
My MacBook doesn't have the plastic on it. It runs very hot, but not too much hotter than my old iBook. I've heard the mooing a couple of times - it's the fan turning on and off as the temperature hovers around the fan-activation temperature, and it sounds much like my cellphone sounds when it is set to vibrate and sitting on a desk on the far side of a room: quiet, but audible. I have also heard a CD-ROM click that seems to be associated with using Parallels and Windows.

The keyboard is much better than a "chicklet" keyboard, about as good as the iBook keyboard, though very different: the indentations on the keys are barely noticeable, and the keys feel lighter, but travel more (I'm a touch typist, and have had little trouble adjusting to the new keyboard). The home key doesn't always register, I think that may just be a positioning issue rather than a hard ware problem. I haven't heard a whine at all, though my hearing is not what it used to be. The screen looks good, and reflections haven't been a problem so far. It feels strange in comparison to my iBook - feels much too thin, and a little bit big, but no heavier (I know it's marginally heavier, but it's not noticeable to me). Main annoyance is that I didn't get a 120 GB hard drive; if I had been more patient, and less stingy, I would be happier.

MrCrowbar
May 25, 2006, 05:02 PM
The front page is wrong. There wasn't a 2 degree difference before and after, because he didn't measure the temperature before. There was a 2 degree difference between his modified machine and his friends stock. Which is way within the margin of error, so the whole article was pointless.

God knows why he didn't do this.

AppleMatt

Agreed. 2 degrees are nothing. Consider you need the exact same room temperatur, the same surface to put the laptop on (a wooden desk will make the Macbook warmer than a steel desk for instance), same ventilation etc. And then, there's idling and there's idling. A computer can do lots of different tasks when "idling". My Macbook is actually warm while I'm typing this, but just as warm as if someone was sitting on my lap for 20 minutes. I watched a DVD witht the Mycbook on my lap and it is uncomfortable with the Superdrive getting kinda hot.

Arbiter
May 25, 2006, 05:10 PM
It is probably the best test I have read so far.. Not only did he use a professional device to read the temperature, he also demonstrated that disassembling and reassembling the laptop can disconnect the laptops temperature reader wich results in the fans going for full speed... This is the most important part of the article and may also explain why some people are getting so good results after reapplying the thermal paste and some dont.

odedia
May 25, 2006, 05:12 PM
MacDevCenter's testings are absurd. They completely ignore the GPU. They only test the core duo chip.

faintember
May 25, 2006, 05:18 PM
MacDevCenter's testings are absurd. They completely ignore the GPU. They only test the core duo chip.Which matters when it comes to temperature?

JAT
May 25, 2006, 05:24 PM
No plastic. No excess heat. A 1.83/512/combo, here. This does not get any hotter than any other laptop I've used. I've owned 7 from 3 different mfgrs: 3 Apples, 2 Dells, 2 Toshibas. I don't know if that's enough of a population for anybody to care.

Yes, it can get warm when hitting the processor hard. Maybe warm enough that I wouldn't want it on my skin. That's what happens. I've never approached burning from the MB, but I certainly did with the Dells. I have used the MB with shorts on, never could with a Dell.

If anybody has a faulty MB that is truly blazing hot, that is a problem. I see no issue with the heat from mine.

Oh, I also plan to upgrade this to 2GB of ram. That will reduce the processor use and perhaps heat at times. Theoretically.

aaron.lee2006
May 25, 2006, 05:32 PM
I believe that all of the original MacBooks have the plastic. (first week orders)

Take a look around the apple website and look at the pictures of the macbook, they all have plastic for example http://www.apple.com/ca/macbook/wireless.html
Also go to thre take it for a spin option you can clearly see it.

ero87
May 25, 2006, 05:40 PM
I believe that all of the original MacBooks have the plastic. (first week orders)

Take a look around the apple website and look at the pictures of the macbook, they all have plastic for example http://www.apple.com/ca/macbook/wireless.html
Also go to thre take it for a spin option you can clearly see it.

you can see it? I thought it was a clear plastic sticker...

Cybergypsy
May 25, 2006, 05:43 PM
I believe that all of the original MacBooks have the plastic. (first week orders)

Take a look around the apple website and look at the pictures of the macbook, they all have plastic for example http://www.apple.com/ca/macbook/wireless.html
Also go to thre take it for a spin option you can clearly see it.


Mine was on the first shipment and did not have the plastic on it!

JamSandwich
May 25, 2006, 05:44 PM
What were all those posts about people getting 'amazing results' after applying their own layer of artic silver?

Either these 'amazing results' are utter bs, or whoever did the test from this post did almost as bad a job as apple.

I don't know how "bad" the thermal paste really is. I think my MacBook runs warmer than I'd like, but I'm on the lower end of the temp spectrum, it seems.

It's something I might have considered, but based on the anecdotal evidence I've seen, it seems like the difference is generally no more than 5C. At that point, you can probably attribute a couple of degrees of heat to Arctic Silver's better formulation and a couple to less-than-ideal application.

Of course, this is outside of those horror-show MacBook Pros that look like an ice cream sundae.

trmptr4484
May 25, 2006, 05:49 PM
Just to ask if anyone has thought of this. From my years of PC building I've realized that the type of thermal paste used affects the temperature a lot (4-10 degrees F). For everyone that has re-applied thermal paste and seem lower temps could the temp decrease be because you are using a higher grade of thermal paste and not that there is excessive paste. Again from experience Artic Silver is the best paste I've ever used; and it has always dropped the temps from other types of thermal paste.

joecool85
May 25, 2006, 05:50 PM
I believe that all of the original MacBooks have the plastic. (first week orders)

Take a look around the apple website and look at the pictures of the macbook, they all have plastic for example http://www.apple.com/ca/macbook/wireless.html
Also go to thre take it for a spin option you can clearly see it.

I don't know what you are talking about...I can't see it at all.

bit density
May 25, 2006, 05:57 PM
Update: Meanwhile, despite the controversy surrounding the excess Thermal Paste, MacDevCenter disassembled their MacBook Pro to see if reducing the Thermal Paste would indeed cause a significant change in the running temperature. Contrary to other anecdotal reports, they found there was only a 2 degree difference in temperatures before and after the extensive disassembly.

How about...

Instead of the the word despite, more correct would be "because of". (They did the test BECAUSE there was a controversy, NOT despite of the controversy).

And their anecdotal report does not necessarily change the validity of any other anecdotal report, it is just another data point.

And last, this is a thread about the MB, not the MBP, and their anecdote may have nothing to do with MB heat issues.

macmyworld
May 25, 2006, 05:58 PM
Gotta love all the rumors.

My MacBook was purchased in Las Vegas right from the first shipment. No plastic and it has been flawless.

Heat isn't bad at all, cooler than my old PowerBook and just a little warmer than my Dell Inspiron.

Love the screen -- glossy and all. No comparison to my 2005 Inspiron screen.

My only wish is that Apple would stock them with 1GB standard.

aaron.lee2006
May 25, 2006, 06:00 PM
I don't know maybe I
'm seeing what I want to see :p oh well

iGary
May 25, 2006, 06:01 PM
I suppose this whole thermal paste issue is a little like the benefits/non benefits of using synthetic oil - you have to try it to see if it does you any good. :)

Cybergypsy
May 25, 2006, 06:25 PM
When will people learn... Rev A computers just don't work!


Rev.A were the macbook pro's

AppleMatt
May 25, 2006, 06:27 PM
Which matters when it comes to temperature?

Both CPUs and GPUs get crikey hot when running, instantly. They also cool down equally fast. I learnt this the hard way many years ago when I put my finger on a Pentium and turned the computer on 'just to see'.

So what the poster meant was, they should have stressed both the CPU and GPU to get the most heat produced.

The very first article that started the thermal paste problems saga used a IR temp gun, and claimed a significant 'before' and 'after' difference. I can't find it at the mo, but I'm sure someone else will linky it for you.

AppleMatt

igentz
May 25, 2006, 06:53 PM
i have just bought a macbook from Compusa, and it runs great, super fast, and it gets warm but i wouldn't say it get hot. . . and i have ran games on it and its fine, i have herd of some macbooks that the cases melt? i think thats a joke beacuse mine never go hot enough to melt the plastic case. . . and i didnt find any plastic thing on my vent, but then again its not that warm . . .

Gotta love all the rumors.

My MacBook was purchased in Las Vegas right from the first shipment. No plastic and it has been flawless.

Heat isn't bad at all, cooler than my old PowerBook and just a little warmer than my Dell Inspiron.

Love the screen -- glossy and all. No comparison to my 2005 Inspiron screen.

My only wish is that Apple would stock them with 1GB standard.


mine runs fine. . . better that my freinds G4 powerbook 1.67. . . that thing is much hotter. . .

i have yet to even here my fan's on mine

faintember
May 25, 2006, 06:58 PM
The very first article that started the thermal paste problems saga used a IR temp gun, and claimed a significant 'before' and 'after' difference. I can't find it at the mo, but I'm sure someone else will linky it for you.That i would like to see and thanks for the info. However, we are talking MBP vs. MB, dedicated graphics vs. integrated graphics. I highly doubt stressing the GPU on the MB would significantly raise the temperature.
If anyone in the triad area of NC has a IR gun, i would be happy to test my MB stressing both the CPU and GPU.
i have herd of some macbooks that the cases melt?Link? This sounds like total crap. If it were true it would be all over the Mac sites.

plinden
May 25, 2006, 07:10 PM
I took mine apart today, Here is what it looked like with the old thermal paste.

http://web.mac.com/zappone/iWeb/Site/Macbook.html
So 5˚F (just slightly less than 3˚C) cooler? Do you think it worth it?

MrCrowbar
May 25, 2006, 07:43 PM
So 5˚F (just slightly less than 3˚C) cooler? Do you think it worth it?

I'm pretty sure applying new thermal paste voids your warranty...
If the procedure would make it run as cool as my calculator and double battery life, I'd already have done it. But this improvement is barely noticable in heat or battery life so why bother?

If it is not working within the margins, return it and get another. If it does work and you can't accept it getting warm on heavy use, get a Dell so you know what a hot laptop really is.

Analog Kid
May 25, 2006, 07:52 PM
Intel CPUs running hot? I'm shocked! Shocked I say!

Leondunkleyc
May 25, 2006, 07:56 PM
.

plinden
May 25, 2006, 07:57 PM
^^^Arn's post about the guys over at MacDevCenter is an interesting one. Nothing like taking an external temperature reading after running both cores at 100%. Either way, my MB idles at 56 and hits 80 under 100% CPU load for 10 mins. Seems quite acceptable. I plan on doing a comparison of the temp readings i am getting today vs. tomorrow after i get my 7200rpm HD installed.

I just tested my wife's MacBook. There's no plastic blocking the vents. It measures 50˚C at idle, 65˚C playing a DVD, 84˚C at 100% load (doing 60 openssl calculations simulaneously - which really stresses the CPU)

The fans came on at 82˚C and the temperature never went above 84˚C. The temperature came down to 60˚C after a couple of minutes and is still dropping.

Even at 84˚C the case wasn't excessively hot.

faintember
May 25, 2006, 08:01 PM
Good to hear it plinden. I should have said in my original post that the 80°C under full load was the temp after a total of 10mins, not the peak. I believe it peaked at 87°C before coming back down, but stabilized around 79°C-81°C and finally settled at 80°C.

joesporleder
May 25, 2006, 08:04 PM
I have an iBook G3 900mhz, 640MB or RAM, running the latest 10.4.6 as a personal machine. Has had motherboard and hard drive replaced more than once in about 5 trips to Apple under extended warranty. Heat of notebooks causing early hardware failure has been a concern when purchasing portables. I've read Apple's tech notes on what to do to keep a notebook cool (hard flat surface, etc.), but this G3 iBook has spent more time in the "computer hospital" than I'd like.

My main workstation is a PowerMac G5 DP 2.0. As a tech coordinator for a small publishing co., my boss offered to buy me a MacBook for personal use (cheap enough for testing anyways) to see how well Mactel would fit into our workflow. It'd give me a chance to test some of our productivity apps as they come online as universal binaries, as well as how well some of our other stuff works under Rosetta. Our primary design app, Creator Pro, is supposed to be UB late summer. Photoshop and Acrobat Pro I'd need to at least run reliably, albeit slow, under Rosetta until Adobe can get them UB and I can work them into the budget. If PS could run under Rosetta on a core duo at least as fast as it would on a 400-500mhz PowerMac G5, that's livable in the short term.

Any reason why I should worry about excessive heat with a MacBook? I realize it is a "consumer" notebook, but so is the Mac mini a consumer product, but for small newspapers with limited budgets, the mini with the new lower prices for widescreen LCDs, has allowed us to put workstations in places where our budget wouldn't let us before.

Electro Funk
May 25, 2006, 09:05 PM
Faster machines that will roast your scrotum at the same time...

:eek: :eek: :eek:

that doesnt sound like fun...

Rawn027
May 25, 2006, 09:23 PM
This probably doesnt apply to the Macbook Pro as well?

Maybe thats what the extra 900$ is for. For more thorough checking so that silly stupid errors like these dont happen any more.

I assume we will see a post in their support section soon about this issue.

Thats a shame.

actually the macbook pro's are worse...

I have been through 4 Mac Book Pro's and now I am buying a Lenovo laptop.
I have been a Mac user my whole life and to see how Apple can not even get simple hardware to work. It may be pretty but i NEED functionality especially for $2000!! - very disapointed with apple and will never get a laptop from them again.

davede70
May 25, 2006, 09:27 PM
I just got mine on Sunday. This is my first mac and I have to say I love everything about it. Except this heat issue. I mean mine is scorching hot. It is hands down hotter then any pc laptop I've had in the past.

I am concerned if my fans are even running. At first I though the macbook was amazingly quiet. But I am wondering if my fan is even running.

daijones
May 25, 2006, 10:57 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but surely the whole point of a laptop design is to conduct heat out of the limited confines of the case to the wider atmosphere? If the machine case feels hot, it's surely because it's doing its job? Certainly, I'd rather have a hot lap than a hot chip. Anything that makes the outside of the case cooler is just building up heat inside the case. You may be able to make the chips run cooler, but that necessarily comes at a cost, either of increased fan action, and hence power and noise, or a warmer lap. I've got my MB on my lap as I type, and on a typical British late Sping night I appreciate the warmth (let's face it, people pay good money for heat pads for their laps!). If I was bothered, I'd follow Apple's clearly stated advise and put a flat surface between the book and my lap.

Seems to me that all Apple's done is decided on one particular, out of many possible, compromise between internal heat, external heat, and fan noise/power consumption. The solution they've come up with emphasises a warm lap and a quiet computer (my MB fan hasn't come on once that I've noticed in my first 10 hrs of use). I'm happy with that design choice: your mileage may vary.

dwsolberg
May 25, 2006, 11:08 PM
That article points out an interesting fact: that constantly running fans can keep the case quite cool on one computer where thermal paste is applied properly (if the author did it properly). It also tells us that merely reapplying the thermal paste did not make for a automatically cool computer in this particular case.

Unfortunately, it tells us NOTHING about increases or decreases in temperature by reapplying thermal paste.

Looking at actual temperatures at intelmactemp.com for various people's MBP 2.0's, the average core temperature under load is about 80 C, with a standard deviation of about 7.5. The range of temperatures is 34 degrees. Based on these results and assuming that the author's computer and his friend's computer were both within the middle 68% of computers (in other words, the computers were normal -- not abnormally hot or cold), then applying the grease might have INCREASED the temperature of the author's core by about 14 degrees or DECREASED the temperature of the author's core by 18 degrees. Of course, the possible difference is even larger.

I'm really happy that people are trying to get to the bottom of this, but for others who try, I want to stress the importance of taking before and after measurements. Without these measurements, there is no way to determine what happened with the thermal paste.

alep85
May 25, 2006, 11:17 PM
Let me inform some people of some info I've figured out.

As a Rev. A Macbook Pro owner, I wasn't too happy when my MBP roasted my legs. So I sent it into Apple, and they replaced some temp sensors and such, really fixed nothing, THEN the battery crapped out. After they exchanged the battery, guess what.....the whole thing runs cooler! Even my sister who knows nothing about computers noticed it right away, and I mentioned nothing about a repair to her. If your battery is running extremely hot, you might have one of the bad ones like mine, the ones that have been known to report odd times remaining and quit with no warning. It also seems to fix the heat issue, at least from the half that's closest to you, the rest gets warm but not so unbearable that you can't stand it.

Others might want to test and verify this, but this could be at least a good alleviation of the heat!

matticus008
May 25, 2006, 11:58 PM
Looking at actual temperatures at intelmactemp.com for various people's MBP 2.0's, the average core temperature under load is about 80 C, with a standard deviation of about 7.5. The range of temperatures is 34 degrees. Based on these results and assuming that the author's computer and his friend's computer were both within the middle 68% of computers (in other words, the computers were normal -- not abnormally hot or cold), then applying the grease might have INCREASED the temperature of the author's core by about 14 degrees or DECREASED the temperature of the author's core by 18 degrees. Of course, the possible difference is even larger.
Not only is the deviation important, but also the accuracy and consistency of measurement. For the sake of argument, let's say that that test was accurate and the re-applied MBP did end up running 2C cooler.

It doesn't sound like much, but it is. A normal surface temperature for a person is 90-91˚F. The human "hot" sensitivity is 106-108˚F, and most people find temperatures in excess of 120-125 to be painful, which is just about 12 degrees of difference. In other words, if this test was accurate, it could easily be important to users, but it's within the manufacturing margin. People could be on the sensitive side of human variation with a computer on the warm side of manufacturing variation--an unfortunate situation that could lead to many complaints (but only a difference of a couple degrees).

Human skin (and the body in general) is remarkably temperature-sensitive, and a difference of a degree or two can be interpreted differently by two people. Remember that the difference between "normal" and "fever" is just over 2˚F. This makes the heat issue extremely subjective. What isn't subjective is safety limits--which the MacBook and MacBook Pro do comply with. Also not subjective are contact burning temperatures, which these products do not reach.

(Infrared thermometers are about $30 these days for people who want a rough estimate for their computers.)

sam10685
May 26, 2006, 12:39 AM
what is thermal paste? what does it do? is it just some random form of goo that is put onto processors?

Mindfield
May 26, 2006, 02:30 AM
what is thermal paste? what does it do? is it just some random form of goo that is put onto processors?

It's paste that is designed to help conduct heat off from the processor's core and away through some other cooling device like a cooling fan. Usually thermal paste is some gooey form of copper or silver, because they conduct heat most efficiently.

Analog Kid
May 26, 2006, 03:31 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but surely the whole point of a laptop design is to conduct heat out of the limited confines of the case to the wider atmosphere? If the machine case feels hot, it's surely because it's doing its job? Certainly, I'd rather have a hot lap than a hot chip. Anything that makes the outside of the case cooler is just building up heat inside the case. You may be able to make the chips run cooler, but that necessarily comes at a cost, either of increased fan action, and hence power and noise, or a warmer lap. I've got my MB on my lap as I type, and on a typical British late Sping night I appreciate the warmth (let's face it, people pay good money for heat pads for their laps!). If I was bothered, I'd follow Apple's clearly stated advise and put a flat surface between the book and my lap.

Seems to me that all Apple's done is decided on one particular, out of many possible, compromise between internal heat, external heat, and fan noise/power consumption. The solution they've come up with emphasises a warm lap and a quiet computer (my MB fan hasn't come on once that I've noticed in my first 10 hrs of use). I'm happy with that design choice: your mileage may vary.
It depends... There are more efficient and less efficient designs-- the question here is whether Apple could get the same performance with less heat. Someone mentioned the battery as a possible culprit-- if the charger is running full time because of a bad battery, then the unit will get hotter than it needs to.

Assuming that Apple designed their unit properly, then we may just be seeing the effect of a higher performance computer. You're right in saying the case is meant to pull the heat away from the stuff that doesn't want to be hot. One thing that's troubling is Apple says they went to Intel because they had the best performance/Watt but everything got hotter. It could be that they got 4x performance and twice the heat, or it could be that Intel isn't living up to its numbers. Or, it could be Apple's hardware/software design.

It's not just the chip itself that pulls power, but the memory around it. Then there's the push for faster and faster graphics, and I don't think the graphics companies are putting as much attention into low power design as they are into frame rates.

AppleMatt
May 26, 2006, 03:40 AM
That i would like to see and thanks for the info. However, we are talking MBP vs. MB, dedicated graphics vs. integrated graphics. I highly doubt stressing the GPU on the MB would significantly raise the temperature.

A GPU is a GPU, and both will get incredibly hot under load. Just because it isn't as powerful (and it still performs quite well) doesn't mean it can ignore the laws of physics.

AppleMatt

mac-x
May 26, 2006, 04:16 AM
this is going nowhere, just because 1 (one) person found some plastic.

And this may sound stupid, but i do believe the macbooks are called,
notebooks not laptops
meaning not for on your 'lap' because of the heat.
But i guess more people already pointed that out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laptop

MrCrowbar
May 26, 2006, 04:34 AM
I just got mine on Sunday. This is my first mac and I have to say I love everything about it. Except this heat issue. I mean mine is scorching hot. It is hands down hotter then any pc laptop I've had in the past.

I am concerned if my fans are even running. At first I though the macbook was amazingly quiet. But I am wondering if my fan is even running.

Apple tells you in the manual you shouldn't use it on your lap for an extended period of time. It is supposed to get warm. Personally, I prefer a warmer case than loud running fans. Don't worry if you don't hear your fans, they are rarely running at audible level. You can do the hardware test (details on the OSX CD that came with your Mac) to hear your fans at full throotle. You will find that the sound is very loud and scary ;)

Can someone maybe make a pref.pane where one could choose between desktop mode (no fans, warm case, like it is now) and laptop mode (fans running more to keep the case temperature below a given threshold)? I know running fans reduce battery life, but a comfortably cool laptop for typing stuff on trains or airplanes would be a nice thing.

matticus008
May 26, 2006, 04:47 AM
Can someone maybe make a pref.pane where one could choose between desktop mode (no fans, warm case, like it is now) and laptop mode (fans running more to keep the case temperature below a given threshold)? I know running fans reduce battery life, but a comfortably cool laptop for typing stuff on trains or airplanes would be a nice thing.
That's a pretty good idea, actually, though I'd want it in desktop mode for planes and trains, because of how annoying the fan noise would be (and the fact that there's table space so it doesn't actually sit on your lap).

It should be possible, in theory, either to change the fan threshold or to fake the temperature sensors. Even something as tricky as a Pref. pane might not be necessary--a small application to run up the fans would do the trick. Just start to cool down, quit to return to normal. Obviously, this would seriously void the warranty, which is probably why it doesn't exist.

sam10685
May 26, 2006, 06:26 AM
It's paste that is designed to help conduct heat off from the processor's core and away through some other cooling device like a cooling fan. Usually thermal paste is some gooey form of copper or silver, because they conduct heat most efficiently.

ahh. so why would too much of it be doing bad stuff?

zapp
May 26, 2006, 06:52 AM
So 5?F (just slightly less than 3?C) cooler? Do you think it worth it?


Worth the 5 cents worth of arctic silver to put on, sure it was worth it. But the implied risk of having a non-booting macbook would be a detterent to this though. Which of course the warranty wouldn't cover. You shouldn't do this if it is your only computer that you saved up for months to get, or you are still paying for it on your credit card. I like the Macbook enough, that if I broke it I would have ordered a new one to replace it, and chaulked it up to experience not to try it again.

GooMan
May 26, 2006, 07:02 AM
No plastic blocking the vents on my black MacBook. I've had it since Saturday and it has never gotten really hot. It gets a little warm but doesn't seem any warmer than my wife's Dell Inspiron 6000 to the touch. I haven't really monitored the temps internally or externally because I don't want to start obsessing over them. The laptop works great (I put 2GB mem in yesterday) and seems fine so I'm happy to leave it at that. :D

Fiveos22
May 26, 2006, 07:05 AM
When will people learn... Rev A computers just don't work!

My last computer, a Rev A Power Mac G5, and my new computer, a Macbook, have never had issues. I don't think users run such a high "Rev A" risk with Apple as they might with other vendors...maybe that I'm just lucky, maybe that's just optimism.

Edit: No plastic on my black macbook.

Mindfield
May 26, 2006, 07:08 AM
ahh. so why would too much of it be doing bad stuff?

Too much of it would start insulating the heat even if it's Arctic Silver 5. There needs to be a a very small drop on the core that barely covers the area for it to work as efficiently as possible. But like others have already said, I too recommend not trying it out without extensive knowledge of the task and the risks involved.

Fiveos22
May 26, 2006, 07:09 AM
Faster machines that will roast your scrotum at the same time...


Chestnuts roasting over an open fire...

Dr.Gargoyle
May 26, 2006, 07:26 AM
Chestnuts roasting over an open fire...
Unless Apple is planing to make a transition to the "roasted chestnut" business alternatively plan to provide a new efficient male birth control, I seriously think they should hold the introduction of new hardwares until it reaches rev. B

zapp
May 26, 2006, 07:48 AM
I'm pretty sure applying new thermal paste voids your warranty...

Thank You Mr. Obvious



If the procedure would make it run as cool as my calculator and double battery life, I'd already have done it. But this improvement is barely noticable in heat or battery life so why bother?

If it is not working within the margins, return it and get another. If it does work and you can't accept it getting warm on heavy use, get a Dell so you know what a hot laptop really is.

How would I kow what the improvement would be if I didn't do it. If I would have known that it would not make a significant difference, I probably would not have done it.

I didn't have a problem with the tempurature, I just wanted it to work at optimum performance. I am very pleased with the Macbook, I like it better than my MBP.

sparks9
May 26, 2006, 07:52 AM
Am I the only one who would prefer a small, quiet, cool, slower laptop over a bulkier, noisy, hot, ultra-fast laptop?

sillycybin
May 26, 2006, 08:05 AM
Am I the only one who would prefer a small, quiet, cool, slower laptop over a bulkier, noisy, hot, ultra-fast laptop?


no

Dr.Gargoyle
May 26, 2006, 08:34 AM
Am I the only one who would prefer a small, quiet, cool, slower laptop over a bulkier, noisy, hot, ultra-fast laptop?
I bought the 12'' iBook as result even though I knew MB was around the corner. I would never buy a rev. A product from Apple, no matter how amazing they are. I use my hardware professionally (science), hence I am better off with a trusty tractor than unreliable racing car. If I have a need for massive computing power, I would never do it on a laptop, that is for sure.

wyrmintheapple
May 26, 2006, 08:35 AM
Scraping the barrel in terms of "news" a bit aren't we? Some guy has a piece of plastic, and a mere handful of unverifiable posts on digg.com claim they have plastic too.....

And some guy who didn't even bother taking the actual temperature of the unit he "fixed" before he worked on it, compares two different units temperatures and then tell everone how his "results" dont match the findings of almost everyone else who seems to have don the paste mod.

And the x86 kernel closed/open with the update three days later just looked daft. Might not have had to backtrack if "news" was based on more than just one tech analysts blog and the pure speculation posted within.

At least make this crap page 2.

Fabio_gsilva
May 26, 2006, 08:35 AM
Dear Diary,


Today I learned that Rev. A computers are fun......

Hahahahahahaha!
LOL!:D

SiliconAddict
May 26, 2006, 09:00 AM
Dear Diary,


Today I learned that Rev. A computers are fun......


No just rev A apple computers

jimmychoi
May 26, 2006, 09:05 AM
Although I have been using macs at the high school I teach at for years, the macbook is my first apple purchase. To be honest with you, I haven't seen a single problem with my macbook to date. I'm glad people are reporting their issues, because at least I can stay informed incase of any blanketed issues. Overall, I love this laptop.

danr_97070
May 26, 2006, 09:20 AM
Yeah, but where do you live that you have a moose in your backyard?! :)

I took mine apart today, Here is what it looked like with the old thermal paste.

http://web.mac.com/zappone/iWeb/Site/Macbook.html


I am still waiting for my free iPod???

zapp
May 26, 2006, 09:27 AM
Yeah, but where do you live that you have a moose in your backyard?! :)

Ironically I am from Caribou, ME, but there are no Caribou here. I actually was chasing a Moose on my Mountain Bike yesterday, it was a juvenile trotting along at 13.6 MPH. I am not originally from up here, so it is a bit odd to see into Moose. And they are BIG.

virtual.rx
May 26, 2006, 09:53 AM
Er... actually, I can't find anyone else other than the original blogger who reported having found the plastic film on their vents...


^ what he said.

Migs
May 26, 2006, 10:40 AM
I'm pretty sure applying new thermal paste voids your warranty...
If the procedure would make it run as cool as my calculator and double battery life, I'd already have done it. But this improvement is barely noticable in heat or battery life so why bother?


I'm unsure why everyone is giving this post any credit. No before or after temps on the case or the CPU using a temp app. The person did not check how well the heat sinks and dies mate before applying a thin layer of paste (this should be a concern when each die does not have an independently moving heat sink).

Some of us have done before and after and seen 10C improvements on idle and 6-10C improvements on full load. I've re-applied paste on a 2.0 and 2.16 now and both times the drop in CPU temp and case temp has been dramatic. My friends 2.16 was idling at 65-68C and now idles at 54-56C. I'm guessing the differences at full load are less since the fans eventually do come on and the CPUs do run hot. Regardless, my 2.0 case is no hotter than a 1.33 15" Powerbook and cooler than my old Titanium.

The paste problem is real on the two MBPs I've opened. On the 2.16, there were air gaps on about 30% of the CPU and the paste was about 1 mil thick where there was contact. I'm convinced the paste is responsible for at least part of the variation reported in MBP CPU and case temperatures.

shewhorn
May 26, 2006, 10:44 AM
Not only did MacDev Center not do a before test, they didn't get a temperature reading from the thermistor on the processor (I haven't seen that mentioned yet so pardon me if it's already come up). This is the figure that other people are comparing and it's the component that will be most effected. Also, a 10C drop in core temperature is not going to manifest itself as a 10C drop in temperature on the chassis. What were they thinking?. Hypothetically speaking let's say they did DID to a before test and there was a 2C drop in temp. Because there is a direct vent where most of the heat is being exhausted a 2C drop in chassis temp might represent a 4C drop in core temp. This is hypothetical, I'm not sure what the actual relationship is (if any, I could be wrong here but based on my experience, I'm not). Just as a note... they're not actually seeing a 2C difference between the machines, they're seeing a 2F difference (their meter was set to farenheit.... sigh).

That brings me to another thing that was missed... no ambient room temperature, no temperature readings at idle?

In addition based on the picture it looks like they're spreading on the Arctic Silver 5 a little too thick (not by much but just a tad too thick, I'm not sure it would make a huge difference if at all, the application is MUCH better than what Apple is doing). For the slug size of a Core Duo the initial application should have been less than a 1/4 of a BB. They also clearly didn't read the instructions very thoroughly either because had they actually read the instructions thoroughly they'd know that Arctic Silver 5 needs about 200 hours of thermal cycling to set after which point its performance typically improves by another 2C to 5C.

I'm actually surprised that MacRumors would post such a poorly written article. I have absolutely no problem with the results if they're true but the writer in this case didn't even have a remotely scientific approach. This was without a doubt one of the worst articles that I've ever seen posted on MacRumors.

Cheers, Joe

stefan15
May 26, 2006, 10:48 AM
It is rediculous that the article on macdevcenter made front page. For one, the computer did have a very bad thermal-paste situation to begin with (unlike some of our other forum members), plus it was so horribly documented and lacked planning..

dex22
May 26, 2006, 11:31 AM
The thermal sensor is also affected by how well it makes contact with the heatpipe. Using some artic silver there would increase the reported temperature, and therefore increase fan usage, and further increase cooling.

As the sensor was disturbed on one machine and not similalry disturbed on the other, any result is invalid anyway. The measurements are no longer 'like'.

swingerofbirch
May 26, 2006, 11:33 AM
This is not a heat issue. The Macbook is as hot as it is allowed to get, but these reports are not about a flaw in the design that burns your legs, but a simple error of some employee not removing all plastic from the laptop he is assembling. Maybe because of the time pressure, if you believe Thinksecret, who first reported May 9, later May 16 due to shortage of stock. This leads to a lot of stress, especially with Steve Jobs breathing down your neck.

By the way, who is rating this positive? I know it also gives you a solution, but since when is an easily solvable problem a good thing?
I always assumed that computers were put together by machines. But I have nothing to base that on except my assumption. Are you saying that computers are pieced together by human hands?

netdog
May 26, 2006, 11:39 AM
No plastic on mine. No heat problem. No issues at all. Just bitchin'. :eek:

iamhammill
May 26, 2006, 11:41 AM
No just rev A apple computers



So how does it work with Apple. I have a MacBook, and if the Rev B one seems to fix the temp thing, will mine get fixed?

QPlot
May 26, 2006, 12:32 PM
No plastic. No excess heat. A 1.83/512/combo, here. This does not get any hotter than any other laptop I've used. I've owned 7 from 3 different mfgrs: 3 Apples, 2 Dells, 2 Toshibas. I don't know if that's enough of a population for anybody to care.

Yes, it can get warm when hitting the processor hard. Maybe warm enough that I wouldn't want it on my skin. That's what happens. I've never approached burning from the MB, but I certainly did with the Dells. I have used the MB with shorts on, never could with a Dell.

If anybody has a faulty MB that is truly blazing hot, that is a problem. I see no issue with the heat from mine.

Oh, I also plan to upgrade this to 2GB of ram. That will reduce the processor use and perhaps heat at times. Theoretically.

I like your last word, it's funny. I am staring at my code and I know theoretically it should work, that's the only thing I've been keeping telling my boss since yesterday. LOL

QPlot
May 26, 2006, 12:33 PM
Gotta love all the rumors.

My MacBook was purchased in Las Vegas right from the first shipment. No plastic and it has been flawless.

Heat isn't bad at all, cooler than my old PowerBook and just a little warmer than my Dell Inspiron.

Love the screen -- glossy and all. No comparison to my 2005 Inspiron screen.

My only wish is that Apple would stock them with 1GB standard.

That just gave me another excuse to fly to Las Vegas, cooler. :D

QPlot
May 26, 2006, 12:36 PM
So 5˚F (just slightly less than 3˚C) cooler? Do you think it worth it?

man, 3 is huge IMHO. it's 10% (or maybe more) difference comparing to the room temperature. If it's 0.3, then you should try another themometer. :eek:

QPlot
May 26, 2006, 12:42 PM
this is going nowhere, just because 1 (one) person found some plastic.

And this may sound stupid, but i do believe the macbooks are called,
notebooks not laptops
meaning not for on your 'lap' because of the heat.
But i guess more people already pointed that out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laptop

that's the major reason I hate bussiness. The name sometimes is just BS.

ITASOR
May 26, 2006, 12:43 PM
I have a feeling that thermal paste sales are doing well.

Macnoviz
May 26, 2006, 02:08 PM
I have a feeling that thermal paste sales are doing well.

What would it be like to work in thermal paste factory???

I can't believe we have five pages of posts about a computer with absolutely no problems, except for some guys that find pieces of plastic or people that are complaining about glossy screens

shewhorn
May 26, 2006, 02:35 PM
What would it be like to work in thermal paste factory???

I can't believe we have five pages of posts about a computer with absolutely no problems, except for some guys that find pieces of plastic or people that are complaining about glossy screens

I disagree. When the processor's temperature gets so hot that Intel's thermal protection circuit kicks in and throttles down the clock speed from 2.0 GHz to 1.67 GHz I think that's a BIG problem. If I buy a 2.0 GHz machine I expect it to run at 2.0 GHz under full load, not 1.67 GHz.

Cheers, Joe

Super Dave
May 26, 2006, 03:30 PM
Could you please do me (and as far as I know every non US country in the world) a favour? Maybe mention it when you mean Fahrenheit and not Celsius. It's really confusing otherwise.

David:cool:

little
May 26, 2006, 05:43 PM
Hey guys,

my MacBook actually had the plastic cover! It's pretty hard to see, but I noticed it right when I got it. Looked like they forgot to remove it...

Cheers
- little

matticus008
May 26, 2006, 05:43 PM
I'm actually surprised that MacRumors would post such a poorly written article. I have absolutely no problem with the results if they're true but the writer in this case didn't even have a remotely scientific approach.
I disagree with the intensity of the statement. Not only does the article mention what wasn't measured, much of it is irrelevant to the cause. Core temperatures, idle temperatures, and room temperatures weren't of concern to the original experiment. The tests occurred in the same room with the same ambient conditions, and the goal was to lower the peak case temperature, not to determine the relationship between CPU and case temp (attempting to do so would have produced are far more complex article). All the temperatures reported were Celsius (regardless of the Fahrenheit thermometers) to my understanding, probably in consideration of the international community.

The only egregious fault was the lack of before temperatures--maybe the friend's MBP didn't have a heat problem and his did. Even if that's the case, it proves that not all MacBooks have a heat problem, which is still valuable information.

shewhorn
May 26, 2006, 09:15 PM
All the temperatures reported were Celsius (regardless of the Fahrenheit thermometers) to my understanding, probably in consideration of the international community.

The only egregious fault was the lack of before temperatures--maybe the friend's MBP didn't have a heat problem and his did. Even if that's the case, it proves that not all MacBooks have a heat problem, which is still valuable information.

Perhaps I missed something re: farenheit vs. celsius but the article that I read does report temps in farenheit. Here's a quote from the article:

On the left is Greg's laptop, reading 97F. On the right is mine, checking in at 95F.

I still feel that the test wasn't planned very well, the fact that they didn't take a before reading illustrates that point (we can at least agree that it would have been useful to get a before reading).

What do we know from this test? We know that Greg's laptop's chassis temp is 97F and James' laptop's chassis is 95F. That's pretty much all we can conclude from that test. Maybe James' laptop was running at 105F before the test or maybe it was running at 93F. We'll never know that.

You point out that the tester's goal was to reduce chassis temperature, I'd agree there but this statement (in my personal opinion at least) exhibits a lack of understanding of the problem:

No matter how you argue it, however, this wasn't the finding I hoped for. It didn't match the glowing reports on the web.

The "glowing reports on the web" (the ones where there's a 20C drop in temps at load) all reference the processor's core temperature, not chassis temperature so if those were the results he was after the goal was doomed from the get go. Based on hit results that would mean an external chassis temp that's less than a comfortable room temperature (61 degrees F for a 20C drop in temps).... unless there's a fridge (or a phase change cooler) attached to the thing it's not going to happen (well, unless you're using your MacBook Pro on top of Kirkwood or Squaw in the winter). I bet my PowerBook chassis gets to at least 80F to 85F just sitting on my legs for a 1/2 hour (wearing shorts... no commando browsing here :D ). Of course I'm not sure exactly what his expectations were, I'm just making some assumptions based on the article but without asking him I don't know.

Cheers, Joe

P.S. What part of the Bay Area? I lived in the SF/Bay Area for 7 years (Sunnyvale, Palo Alto and Mountain View). I miss the Bay Area (I moved back to New England last year :( )

bobalina
May 27, 2006, 04:19 AM
whats wrong with the heat... i like being able to cook my eggs and bacon on it and surf the net at the same time... the heat is also good to warm your hands when its cold in the library

glossy is good

Willis
May 27, 2006, 09:57 AM
"Some users?"

Name one other than the original blogger who wrote the post and shared the pics. I've seen no reports that this -- like the black MacBook paint flaking -- is anything other than a single, isolated incident.

the black paint was a joke lol

Willis
May 27, 2006, 10:00 AM
Hey guys,

my MacBook actually had the plastic cover! It's pretty hard to see, but I noticed it right when I got it. Looked like they forgot to remove it...

Cheers
- little

any pictures to prove?

contoursvt
May 27, 2006, 12:38 PM
any pictures to prove?

people are that untrusting that he's actually gotta take photos of his plastic for ya or what :confused:

matticus008
May 27, 2006, 01:22 PM
Perhaps I missed something re: farenheit vs. celsius but the article that I read does report temps in farenheit. Here's a quote from the article:
Oops, I guess it's the other way around. Fahrenheit and not Celsius.

What do we know from this test? We know that Greg's laptop's chassis temp is 97F and James' laptop's chassis is 95F. That's pretty much all we can conclude from that test. Maybe James' laptop was running at 105F before the test or maybe it was running at 93F. We'll never know that.
We can also conclude that stock MacBooks can and do run at similar temperatures and that Arctic Silver isn't going to help everyone. That's valuable information to have in writing. A before temperature would have been immensely helpful, but they readily admit they didn't take one. Pointing out the major problem with your method is more scientific than most "articles" and "experiments" on the Internet, so I guess I'm trying to give them a little credit for trying, is all.
I bet my PowerBook chassis gets to at least 80F to 85F just sitting on my legs for a 1/2 hour (wearing shorts... no commando browsing here :D ). Of course I'm not sure exactly what his expectations were, I'm just making some assumptions based on the article but without asking him I don't know.
My PowerBook gets to 116˚F (47C) on a fairly regular basis near the vents and the RAM door. Occasionally it might even venture a little hotter. Surprise, computers get hot. Some of the responses seem to suggest that people were unaware of this basic fact.

P.S. What part of the Bay Area? I lived in the SF/Bay Area for 7 years (Sunnyvale, Palo Alto and Mountain View). I miss the Bay Area (I moved back to New England last year :( )
I've lived in Palo Alto and San Jose, but now it's the East Bay or possibly SF proper. I haven't selected a property yet as I'm still technically a Vancouver resident. :)

retroz311
May 27, 2006, 02:24 PM
I took mine apart today, Here is what it looked like with the old thermal paste.

http://web.mac.com/zappone/iWeb/Site/Macbook.html


I am still waiting for my free iPod???

Nice Pix, any chance if you happened to notice whether or not the CPU is soldered on? I ask as the newer cores coming soon are supposed to be the same pin config.

Thanks!

retroz311
May 27, 2006, 02:29 PM
the black paint was a joke lol

I read a thread where a store employee went and keyed a BLACK macbook and it was 100% black through and through, then I read that the Black is actually aluminum (silver underneath) like the MBP whereas the white are plastic. Hard to know what is or isn't true.

I did notice the other day in the Pasadena store, that the SPACE BAR for the black had a bit of silver showing through, but it was a clean edge, not flaky.

Has anyone, just for fun, weighed the white and then the black.

matticus008
May 27, 2006, 02:37 PM
I read a thread where a store employee went and keyed a BLACK macbook and it was 100% black through and through, then I read that the Black is actually aluminum (silver underneath) like the MBP whereas the white are plastic. Hard to know what is or isn't true.
The cases are black polycarbonate plastic, not painted, and not aluminum. Like the iBook, the MacBooks have a hefty metal "cage" under the plastic to reinforce them. In the iBooks, this was magnesium. The MacBooks may or may not still use magnesium. The individual keys on the keyboard are a different kind of plastic, possibly ABS, and black ABS will look grey or white when stressed as a natural property of the plastic.

In response to your other question, the processors are all soldered throughout the entire MacBook line, including the Pros.

retroz311
May 27, 2006, 02:48 PM
In response to your other question, the processors are all soldered throughout the entire MacBook line, including the Pros.

Dang, as in every pin, or just 4? Why go through the trouble? With the new Procs at the same pin config, you just know the PC to Mac users will try to un solder. Wonder how easy it would be to switch them out?! :cool:

matticus008
May 27, 2006, 02:52 PM
Dang, as in every pin, or just 4? Why go through the trouble? With the new Procs at the same pin config, you just know the PC to Mac users will try to un solder. Wonder how easy it would be to switch them out?! :cool:
There aren't "pins" in the sense you're thinking--it's not that they glued the CPU into place with solder, it's that there is no socket. A normal mainboard has a ZIF socket which you place your packaged CPU into and then strap your cooling device on top. A notebook has no such socket, and the cooling unit is more tightly connected to the whole affair. This saves considerably on vertical space, allowing notebooks to be less than 2" thick, and some to be as thin as 1" vertically, like the MacBooks.

It would be almost impossible to successfully swap out a notebook processor, not only because of the sensitivity and difficulty in doing so, but also because no one sells unpackaged CPUs for the task. Packaged meaning the substrate and pins system builders are used to seeing when they remove the "CPU"--that's actually a structure containing more than just the CPU core(s).

MrCrowbar
May 27, 2006, 04:51 PM
I read a thread where a store employee went and keyed a BLACK macbook and it was 100% black through and through, then I read that the Black is actually aluminum (silver underneath) like the MBP whereas the white are plastic. Hard to know what is or isn't true.

I did notice the other day in the Pasadena store, that the SPACE BAR for the black had a bit of silver showing through, but it was a clean edge, not flaky.

Has anyone, just for fun, weighed the white and then the black.

The keys on the black Macbook actually have some kind of protective plastic on them. You can peel that off if you remove the keys one by one and grab the thin black layer on the back of the key and peel it of. You then have a silver key with black labels like on the Macbook Pro. The keys are plastic indeed but in a silver color. To remove the black plasic of the case, remove the battery and scratch one black spot with a knife or scissors until it goes off. Then you can gently pull on it to reveal the metal bottom of the Macbook. The top and display stickers are tougher to remove as there's nowhere to grab the black sticker. It took me nearly 2 hours to clear my Macbook from this black stuff. The only things that remain black are: power button, ports, mouse pad and button, ventilation grille on the back, battery release switch and the battery itself. The IR-Sensor and the sleep LED on the front and the iSight remain black too of yourse (looks ugly likeo on the Macbook Pro). I'll try to take pictures with the iSight and a Mirror tonight and post them there.

Cybergypsy
May 27, 2006, 04:55 PM
Dont up date your software on the macbook, the intel update, make the book whine, removed it and reinstalled and it back to perfect!

MrCrowbar
May 27, 2006, 05:12 PM
Dont up date your software on the macbook, the intel update, make the book whine, removed it and reinstalled and it back to perfect!

That's true. I didn't notice the whining before the update...
How can I remove the update by the way?

retroz311
May 27, 2006, 06:10 PM
The keys on the black Macbook actually have some kind of protective plastic on them. You can peel that off if you remove the keys one by one and grab the thin black layer on the back of the key and peel it of. You then have a silver key with black labels like on the Macbook Pro. The keys are plastic indeed but in a silver color. To remove the black plasic of the case, remove the battery and scratch one black spot with a knife or scissors until it goes off. Then you can gently pull on it to reveal the metal bottom of the Macbook. The top and display stickers are tougher to remove as there's nowhere to grab the black sticker. It took me nearly 2 hours to clear my Macbook from this black stuff. The only things that remain black are: power button, ports, mouse pad and button, ventilation grille on the back, battery release switch and the battery itself. The IR-Sensor and the sleep LED on the front and the iSight remain black too of yourse (looks ugly likeo on the Macbook Pro). I'll try to take pictures with the iSight and a Mirror tonight and post them there.

Dude, that's crazy - -post as many pix as you can :-)
Would love to see the whole thing, :D

Crazy!

Looking forward to the pictures.

Cybergypsy
May 27, 2006, 06:13 PM
That's true. I didn't notice the whining before the update...
How can I remove the update by the way?

you have to reinstall osx......its worth it though, just did it myself and dont update thesoftware with the intel again.......

mrichmon
May 27, 2006, 07:12 PM
I always assumed that computers were put together by machines. But I have nothing to base that on except my assumption. Are you saying that computers are pieced together by human hands?

The printed circuit boards are generally assembled by machine -- i.e. a machine places and solders the components onto the board. But the assembly of the machine -- i.e. putting in the motherboard, hard drive, optical drive and screen in place, plus connecting the cables is typically done by hand.

Even high-volume server machines that are assembled in the USA such as the machines sold by Sun Microsystems are hand assembled. Typically machines are assembled by semi-skilled workers. They get a bucket of parts and a list of install procedures to follow. For server machines the newly assembled machine is then plugged into a test station to run automated tests while the worker assembles the next machine. For very high volume machines such as the MacBook I could easily believe that the automated testing is minimal (such as just booting from a diagnostics CD) or possibly eliminated entirely from the process altogether.

Macnoviz
May 29, 2006, 02:18 PM
Dont up date your software on the macbook, the intel update, make the book whine, removed it and reinstalled and it back to perfect!

I'm getting my Macbook tomorrow, it will be my first Mac, could you clarify the precise update not to download a bit more? When would this be fixed?
Do you have to configure anything (I heard of the update applications in OSX, but I'm totally new to everything, apart from reading about stuff)

Cybergypsy
May 29, 2006, 03:37 PM
I'm getting my Macbook tomorrow, it will be my first Mac, could you clarify the precise update not to download a bit more? When would this be fixed?
Do you have to configure anything (I heard of the update applications in OSX, but I'm totally new to everything, apart from reading about stuff)

when it checks for updates the first time....uncheck Intel 1.0....that will make it whine, you can reinstall OSX if you do it by accident....

ClimbingTheLog
May 29, 2006, 07:31 PM
I disagree. When the processor's temperature gets so hot that Intel's thermal protection circuit kicks in and throttles down the clock speed from 2.0 GHz to 1.67 GHz I think that's a BIG problem. If I buy a 2.0 GHz machine I expect it to run at 2.0 GHz under full load, not 1.67 GHz.

What, you want the CPU to melt instead?

Or do you want more fans (bigger notebook) blowing loudly (not very Apple)?

Or do you want a Rev. B MacBook?

ClimbingTheLog
May 29, 2006, 07:33 PM
No just rev A apple computers

Remember how they were farming out the computer work to Intel and the case work to Taiwanese laptop factories? That way we wouldn't see the Rev. A. problems anymore.

doo, dee doo dee doo. (sesame street autotypewriter sound)

ClimbingTheLog
May 29, 2006, 07:36 PM
So in conclusion, MacBooks just run hot....sorta like how my car's temp guage gets into the red when it's idiling on the freeway while I'm stuck in a traffic jam, the only difference being that MacBooks aren't supposed to come off as 14 year old pieces of crap

You might have a stuck thermostat. It's super-easy and cheap to change one out if you have a half-hour and a socket wrench:

http://www.automedia.com/Keep/Your/Eye/on/the/Thermostat/ccr20041201th/1

Another option is to let your engine melt itself which is expensive.

Seriously Apple, I sure hope you get all these heat/moo/whine/display issues figured out before I start looking to get a MacBook (pro) once Leapord is out.

Oh, stop. We wouldn't want to buy a mature product from Apple when we can buy Rev. A. and bitch about it online! :wink:

MrCrowbar
May 30, 2006, 08:31 PM
Since this thread adresses the Macbook and it flaws...
I watched some old video on my Macbook (VLC Player). Then I plugged out my headphones so that "Alarm Clock 2" (great app btw) will wake me tomorrow. But at the moment I unplug the phones, I get this message asking me to restart my computer. And this happened twice. I know the Mac knows when phones are plugged in since when you mute the speakers and plug on eaphones, the phones are not muted. But there may be some shortage at the headphones jack and the Computer thinks it's safest to cut the power immediately...

It happened when unplugging the first 2 milimeters of the headphones jack. The Macbook speaker do a little "puff" when switching audio back to the internal speakers. I guess that's the moment it crashes. I was not able to reproduce the behavior on purpose... anyone with similar problems?

brbubba
May 31, 2006, 03:49 PM
I just tested my wife's MacBook. There's no plastic blocking the vents. It measures 50˚C at idle, 65˚C playing a DVD, 84˚C at 100% load (doing 60 openssl calculations simulaneously - which really stresses the CPU)

The fans came on at 82˚C and the temperature never went above 84˚C. The temperature came down to 60˚C after a couple of minutes and is still dropping.

Even at 84˚C the case wasn't excessively hot.

Mine after an hour of running Boinc is at 83 Celsius. I have some artic silver ceramique which is also white, if I crack open the case and apply that is there really anyway for them to tell I have voided the warranty?

matticus008
May 31, 2006, 04:17 PM
Mine after an hour of running Boinc is at 83 Celsius. I have some artic silver ceramique which is also white, if I crack open the case and apply that is there really anyway for them to tell I have voided the warranty?
83 isn't a terrible temperature. What's your case temp like? If you have one of the "normal" MacBooks, you might see very little to no improvement. There are lots of subtle ways to tell you've been inside a computer, from mild screw stripping to fingerprints, and most obviously, your thermal material application. If you apply it in the "hobbyist" style, they'll know immediately that it wasn't done by a manufacturing process.

Cybergypsy
May 31, 2006, 04:21 PM
83 isn't a terrible temperature. What's your case temp like? If you have one of the "normal" MacBooks, you might see very little to no improvement. There are lots of subtle ways to tell you've been inside a computer, from mild screw stripping to fingerprints, and most obviously, your thermal material application. If you apply it in the "hobbyist" style, they'll know immediately that it wasn't done by a manufacturing process.

whats a good app. to check temp on the macbook

Abulia
May 31, 2006, 04:23 PM
I've done gobs of tests on my MacBook in various configurations. My temps are pretty constant.

Idle 56C
Peak 85C
Load 82C

matticus008
May 31, 2006, 04:33 PM
whats a good app. to check temp on the macbook
Temperature Monitor is a reasonably accurate one...I'm not sure if it works with Intels, but I imagine it would. For case temperature though, you need an infrared thermometer. You can buy one for about $30 at any chain drug store. Target and the like probably carry them as well.

Edit: Looks like the current version of Temp Monitor only supports Macs released before 27 April. There's another app called CoreDuoTemp or something like that which other members have been using.

Cybergypsy
May 31, 2006, 05:38 PM
What should it be???? the temp range

Cybergypsy
May 31, 2006, 07:08 PM
Thanks for your help running at 52C.....and have been running for a hour....

Nar1117
May 31, 2006, 11:57 PM
I dont know whether this has been addressed or not, but if you click on the picture on the orginial blogger's site, the second comment down on the corresponding page notes something very interesting. The macbook shown has a different keyboard layout than the macbooks that people have bought/seen in stores. The 'return' key is different, there is a 'backspace' button rather than a 'delete' button, and one or two other noticable things.

Maybe this version of macbook is a pre-production macbook, or something of that nature, which would exclude it from being compared to regular production macbook.

ClimbingTheLog
Jun 1, 2006, 12:14 AM
I dont know whether this has been addressed or not, but if you click on the picture on the orginial blogger's site, the second comment down on the corresponding page notes something very interesting. The macbook shown has a different keyboard layout than the macbooks that people have bought/seen in stores. The 'return' key is different, there is a 'backspace' button rather than a 'delete' button, and one or two other noticable things.

Good catch. It has a pound symbol over the 3, and a euro over 2, so I'd guess it's a UK keyboard.

The return key is a problem though - that kind of key change (not just a key label change) would necessitate a different top for each laptop in each region, which seems like something Apple would avoid (or do europeans really like the dreaded expanded Enter key?)

Otherwise this may be a prototype that may have been shipped out accidentally. Rev 0 MacBook?

Nar1117
Jun 1, 2006, 12:24 AM
Good catch. It has a pound symbol over the 3, and a euro over 2, so I'd guess it's a UK keyboard.

The return key is a problem though - that kind of key change (not just a key label change) would necessitate a different top for each laptop in each region, which seems like something Apple would avoid (or do europeans really like the dreaded expanded Enter key?)

Otherwise this may be a prototype that may have been shipped out accidentally. Rev 0 MacBook?


Yeah, i dont think the special 'return' key is part of the UK keyboard.

And this might not be part of it, but do the keyboards on the macbooks indent slightly into the case? In the picture, there is a slight drop all the way around the keyboard from the outer case. Now, that could be a standard macbook feature, i dont have one so i dony know.

brbubba
Jun 2, 2006, 08:51 AM
83 isn't a terrible temperature. What's your case temp like? If you have one of the "normal" MacBooks, you might see very little to no improvement. There are lots of subtle ways to tell you've been inside a computer, from mild screw stripping to fingerprints, and most obviously, your thermal material application. If you apply it in the "hobbyist" style, they'll know immediately that it wasn't done by a manufacturing process.

I don't have a external thermometer, but at its hottest it is uncomfortable to touch. As in its at the max limit where any increase would break the pain threshold. I'll see if I can scrounge up any kind of a actual temp measuring device.

I'm probably going to try to get them to replace it anyway as I have a mooing one. In addition there was a screw in the battery compartment that was half screwed in, pretty lame QC. We'll see how that goes.

matticus008
Jun 2, 2006, 01:13 PM
I don't have a external thermometer, but at its hottest it is uncomfortable to touch.
That's normal. The top edge of the MacBooks where the heat pipes vent is supposed to get hot. It's moving all the notebook's heat through there and temperatures in excess of 110˚F aren't unusual. All of my notebooks from the past several years get around this hot in the heat sink area (PowerBook G4, Dell M140, HP dv1000, Dell Latitude C840, Dell Latitude CPxJ, Pismo) except maybe the G3 PB which I can't recall. The increased use of heat pipes in modern notebooks means that heat isn't dispersed in the open air and instead is channeled, and where that channel ends, all the heat is released.

Good luck with your replacement, but don't be terribly surprised if touching a fully worked MB(P) is still uncomfortably hot at the top.

Ish
Jun 5, 2006, 04:55 AM
I dont know whether this has been addressed or not, but if you click on the picture on the orginial blogger's site, the second comment down on the corresponding page notes something very interesting. The macbook shown has a different keyboard layout than the macbooks that people have bought/seen in stores. The 'return' key is different, there is a 'backspace' button rather than a 'delete' button, and one or two other noticable things.

Maybe this version of macbook is a pre-production macbook, or something of that nature, which would exclude it from being compared to regular production macbook.

I have a UK keyboard and it looks like that. I actually raised the question of the different layout in this thread . A point raised in that thread however makes it look as though it may be the US keyboard that's different http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout

ham2233
Jun 8, 2006, 09:56 AM
Apple tells you in the manual you shouldn't use it on your lap for an extended period of time. It is supposed to get warm. Personally, I prefer a warmer case than loud running fans. Don't worry if you don't hear your fans, they are rarely running at audible level. You can do the hardware test (details on the OSX CD that came with your Mac) to hear your fans at full throotle. You will find that the sound is very loud and scary ;)

Can someone maybe make a pref.pane where one could choose between desktop mode (no fans, warm case, like it is now) and laptop mode (fans running more to keep the case temperature below a given threshold)? I know running fans reduce battery life, but a comfortably cool laptop for typing stuff on trains or airplanes would be a nice thing.

This seems like a really good idea to me. I know I'd be really interested in it -- particularly in being able to turn up the fans so I could actually keep my macbook on my lap. Is any work being done on this? How difficult would it be to access the power management/fan controls? Are we talking kernel extension, some sort of temp sensor hack, or something as high-level as an app?

sunfast
Jun 8, 2006, 10:04 AM
Has anybody found the plastic on their MacBook vents? I'm guessing it's obvious if it's there? I had a good poke around on my new one last night and the vent's looked pretty clear to me and I could feel some air coming out. I'm pretty sure I couldn't have missed it could I?

Cybergypsy
Jun 9, 2006, 09:06 PM
My book was on the first plane, and i did not have any plastic at all , I doubt the story....

r1ck
Dec 4, 2006, 08:15 PM
I didn't have a plastic strip on my vent either, strangely. I am pretty dismayed by the temperature of my Macbook. It got pretty hot once and wouldn't respond. Since then I downloaded the smcFanControl device but now I am just constantly worried about my laptop overheating and think I need to control the temp all the time. It's a nuisance and I would think that such an expensive and sophistocated piece of hardware would come equipped with a temperature control device at least as up to par as other laptops (dell etc) so why is it getting so hot? So far, the hottest I have noticed lately was 75? C only because I had safari open and comiclife with a few other trivial programs. On the Mac specks page it says that normal operating temperature is 10-35? C does that only apply to the environment temp? At what temperature should I be worried about serious damage?

Romulus
Dec 4, 2006, 09:18 PM
I have a C2D Macbook... Since I was a switcher reading all the repors, I was worried about temperature too... Basically my machine cpu runs at around 61-63C after about an hour. Otherway, with some push and shove it gets to 70+ with extremes at around 85...

I went to the store and we actually downloaded temperature monitor on some floor machines experiencing temperatures similar to mine. The notebookreview.com website on the new C2D posted a temp monitor screenshot, and it has similar temperatures. So basically you should be fine. The 10-30 is a recomendation for ambient temperature, but the Macbooks are working fine in Arizona too where summers are much over 30C.

Don't stress, and just enjoy (easier said then done - I still have temp monitor on so often just to keep on eye on what's going on under the hood ;) )

Good luck!