USB On-the-Go - iMacs out

[MorganX]

Motorola just signed on. Needs USB 2.0. I'm really starting to have doubts about buying an iMac. I still have a week to cancel, it's not due until 3/3/03. I just don't know.

Would be nice if Apple resolved to make motherboard upgrades available to protect it's customers investments.

[menoinjun]

I have no idea what this post is about, but I assume that you don't like the fact that USB 2.0 sn't included with the new Apple products.

Who cares? I don't see the big deal!!

First off, I'm pretty sure that the USB 2.0 standard is owned or partially owned by Intel, and there is no way in hell that Apple is going to pay Intel to use their chips in an Apple computer.

Secondly, what on earth is the big attraction to USB 2.0? Everything made for USB 2.0 is also made for firewire! Firewire was out for a year or two (or three) before USB 2.0, so you can get hard drives, scanners, printers, cd-rw, anything for firewire as well as USB 2.0! The Epson 2450 scanner is both USB 2.0 and Firewire...external drives are about the same price for either...etc...

Lastly, I think people are blinded by the apparent speed of USB 2.0. Yes, theoretically it is 80mb/s faster than Firewire (480 v. 400), but you have to realize that most devices don't even reach the maximum throughput levels of Firewire or USB 2.0. So what does it matter? The speeds are esentially the same. I ended up putting a USB 2.0 card into my G4 NOT because of the speed, but just to get 5 more powered internal USB ports and not have to use a hub.

Firewire is already built into ALL macs. If Apple honestly thought that USB 2.0 was a technology that people needed, then it would be included with every mac. Don't forget though that Apple gets money every time another company uses firewire in their devices. Don't forget that now FW 800 is out there and can run old FW devices with an adapter!

-Pete

[MorganX]

Originally posted by ptrauber
I have no idea what this post is about, but I assume that you don't like the fact that USB 2.0 sn't included with the new Apple products.

Who cares? I don't see the big deal!!

-Pete

USB on-the-go is an emerging standard for connecting cell phones, pdas, and other deviced directly to PC and peripherals. A PC is not necessarily needed.

The concern is that Apple is not keeping up iwth industry standards. If it is to be the digital hub, it can't let itself fall too far behind, unless you will only be using Apple devices.

I don't know the licensing requirements for USB 1 or 2. I know that firewire's licensing has hampered it's adoption. USB 1 it a standard on both platforms, so it has not been impeded by licensing. Lack of USB 2 support is more of a choice by Apple. It may turn out to be a bad one.

Sony (Clie PDAs)
Motorola (Cell Phones)
ATI
Qualcomm (Cell Phone Chips)
Philips
Texas Instruments

Are all on board, I doubt there will be an equivalent firewire solution.

[pantagruel]

sorry, but for you to not get a mac because it doesnt support usb2 shows me your not very bright. industry standards? Apple received an Emmy for Firewire my friend, why don't more PC'S use Firewire. There are plenty of devices that already use Firewire, I know my camcorder works great with it.
USB2 came out trying to catch up to Firewire, and it really didnt, some manufacturers even gave up USB2 support and switched to Firewire and USB 1. And now there is Firewire 2 which is even faster and more capable than USB2. The Industry Standard should be Firewire 2, why would Apple invest and waste money in a lesser product?
Buy a PC.....it will sure be worth it to get USB2.:rolleyes:

[MorganX]

Originally posted by pantagruel
sorry, but for you to not get a mac because it doesnt support usb2 shows me your not very bright. industry standards? Apple received an Emmy for Firewire my friend, why don't more PC'S use Firewire. There are plenty of devices that already use Firewire, I know my camcorder works great with it.

I don't give a Sh*(t how many Emmy's apple won. It's meaningless in the computing world. You know how many people deserve Emmy's and Grammy's and never get one?

Obviously I purchased an iMac without USB2. However, because ALL the major players in the industry are embracing USB 2.0 this show lack of foresight on Apple's part. It's backing itself into a corner and I don't know if I'm going to be a not too bright Mac user constantly left out in the cold because of Apple decisions.

Great camcorders use firewire, they also use USB. And now, PDAs and Cell phones will use USB and not firewire. But camcorders and iPods will.

[pantagruel]

only not all the major players are backing usb2, your wrong there. there is plenty of support for apple and firewire.

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by MorganX
The concern is that Apple is not keeping up iwth industry standards.

Apple *sets* industry standards. almost 100% of the time. USB2.0 is a useless technology that will just cloud up the peripheral waters and confuse consumers until it dies.

usb-to-go is just the other companies trying to force Apple to adjust to their standards. which isn't going to happen. don't expect to see USB2.0 on any iMacs... well, ever.

There will be adaptors tho.

pnw

[beatle888]

Originally posted by MorganX

Sony (Clie PDAs)
Motorola (Cell Phones)
ATI
Qualcomm (Cell Phone Chips)
Philips
Texas Instruments

Are all on board, I doubt there will be an equivalent firewire solution.


well three of your above examples are
portable communication devices. i believe
apple is using blue tooth to accomodate
connectivity to devices like the above.

is usb2 wireless? why do you want to plug
in a cable from your cell/pda to your
computer when you can use blue tooth?

blue tooth isnt fast. but what are you
downloading from a cell/pda that you
need usb2?

i know blue tooth and usb2 comparisons
are like apples and oranges but look at
the devices in your example. like i said
three were cell/pda. i think usb2 would
be overkill in these devices.....at the
moment AND they still arent wireless if
usb2 is there only solution for data transport.

blue tooth offeres a solution thats just so
much better then anything that requires
a cable for connectivity.

again, i remind you that im talking about
on the go life style communication devices.
i am not suggestion a video camera use
blue tooth.

[MorganX]

Originally posted by beatle888
is usb2 wireless? why do you want to plug
in a cable from your cell/pda to your
computer when you can use blue tooth?

No USB is not wireless, but it is cheap. I would prefer bluetooth. But when it comes to Digital Lifestyle Devices, if USB 2 is ubiquitous to control prices bluetooth and those without USB 2 may be left out in the cold.

I think Apple should definitely rethink it's stance on USB 2. They're not going to force the market to standardize on FW by not supporting USB 2, they're just going to isolate the Mac even further.

If I wanted a tower I could protect myself, but if I'm going to have a tower I'm going to have a PC.

I won't cancel my order, but I do feel like it's usefulness will be extremely limited. Again, I would like to see some type of plan from apple to protect iMac investors. I think users who shelled out top dollar for an iMac 6 months ago should have the option of taking it to an Apple reseller and upgrade the motherboard. $500 sounds good to me.

Maybe that's just the PC user in me expecting that kind of protection from obsolesence.

[MorganX]

Originally posted by paulwhannel
Apple *sets* industry standards. almost 100% of the time. USB2.0 is a useless technology that will just cloud up the peripheral waters and confuse consumers until it dies

Yeah right.

[beatle888]

Originally posted by MorganX

Maybe that's just the PC user in me expecting that kind of protection from obsolesence.


i think so. i really dont think hardware
would be a reason to become a switcher.
apple needs to play catch up right now.
unless of course your talking about the
powerbook/ibook/ipod. their professional
systems are lacking in power. still, they
have enough power for the ad industry.
so im good with it.

mac users dont get to use a lot of devices
out there. or at least our options are more
limited. i say if your comfortable configuring
windows and you like the OS in general,
then i'd cancel your order and wait till mac
truly delivers a nice desktop. osx is nice and
rediculously stable but if apple isnt
compatible with devices you want, or if you
need super fast speeds, you really might
want to click that cancel button.

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by MorganX
Yeah right.

Indeed.

[patrick0brien]

Originally posted by MorganX
Yeah right.

-MorganX

I'm not usually one to get involved in arguments here, but I feel this must be said:

It almost appears that you are trolling for an argument. Please open your mind up a little. Sure, the wording of "Apple *sets* industry standards. almost 100% of the time. " was a bit extreme and blanket. But there is a lot of historical truth to this.

Apple did introduce the world to USB 1 in the first place. Sure the didn't invent the technology, Intel did that, but they did set the standard, from an introductory standpoint. USB2 is nifty, but just not a clear improvement over FireWire 400. You still need drivers and even then it may never reach the ceiling of it's theoretical max of 480. Firewire devices rarely need drivers, and that's the point. And it does reach its ceiling. USB2 is cheaper, but that's the operative word: cheaper.

Also, don't forget FireWire is an industry standard: IEEE 1394.

[beatle888]

Originally posted by patrick0brien

USB2 is nifty, but just not a clear improvement over FireWire 400. You still need drivers and even then it may never reach the ceiling of it's theoretical max of 480. Firewire devices rarely need drivers, and that's the point. And it does reach its ceiling. USB2 is cheaper, but that's the operative word: cheaper.

Also, don't forget FireWire is an industry standard: IEEE 1394.


that, i think is the best :D i LOVE being
able to take a device out of its box....
and just plug it in :D i didnt install anything
for my 48x lacie cd burner :D....until later..
when i wanted to use toast.

[MorganX]

Originally posted by patrick0brien
-MorganX

I'm not usually one to get involved in arguments here, but I feel this must be said:

It almost appears that you are trolling for an argument. Please open your mind up a little. Sure, the wording of "Apple *sets* industry standards. almost 100% of the time. " was a bit extreme and blanket. But there is a lot of historical truth to this.


No, I was trolling for discussion, the comment that was made, was so extreme, I felt it was trolling for an argument. What good is it if is not true?

Most of what's inside a Mac today are PC standards.

AGP
DDR
PCI
(and I'm sure Apple will adopt PCI-Express.)
USB (with an asterisk, see below)

Given that, the comment was just unnecessary. I personally don't care much for who was first to use what. What I would like to see is more Mac users, creatively criticize Apple where appropriate. When I'm on a PC board and say hey, MS is getting a margin of 85% on Windows XP, why are they charging for the cheesy Digital Media Plust pack I get people who agree and disagree. But no one acting like I just called their mama fat and ugly.

BTW, Apple does set the standard for Aesthetics and UI design, realizing of course that everything has its strengths and weaknesses.

Originally posted by patrick0brien
Apple did introduce the world to USB 1 in the first place. Sure the didn't invent the technology, Intel did that, but they did set the standard, from an introductory standpoint.

I don't have a problem giving Apple credit for that. Though prior to Apple adopting it, it was on IBM and Dell PCs. We have refreshed many PCs that never had them enabled because Microsoft chose to wait for Windows 98 to fully support USB in a hassle-free manner. Apple jumped on board a train it new was not going to be stopped.

Originally posted by patrick0brien
USB2 is nifty, but just not a clear improvement over FireWire 400. You still need drivers and even then it may never reach the ceiling of it's theoretical max of 480. Firewire devices rarely need drivers, and that's the point. And it does reach its ceiling. USB2 is cheaper, but that's the operative word: cheaper.

Also, don't forget FireWire is an industry standard: IEEE 1394.

Firewire is a standard, and because it can power many devices, I prefer it. The connectors could be as easy to insert/remove as USB, but that's trivial.

The point isn't to say IEEE 1394 isn't a great technology (I still haven't written off 1394 Networking). But it is not going to be nearly as ubiquitous as USB2. And if the only reason Apple isn't moving to it is to push FW4 and FW8. I see that as a self serving (licensing) disservice to its loyal customers.

Regarding drivers, Cameras and storage devices do not need drivers on either platform. The only USB2 devices I've seen that need drivers are of course, printers (don't think there are firewire printers) and small number of scanners.

[Dont Hurt Me]

usb2 is trying to be what firewire 400 has been! now with firewire 800 who cares for usb2. more windblows crap if you ask me. Heck even current firewire isnt getting saturated yet so you wont see me cry over lack of usb2.

[patrick0brien]

Originally posted by MorganX
The point isn't to say IEEE 1394 isn't a great technology (I still haven't written off 1394 Networking).

-MorganX

Oh. I agree with your point in general, no animosity here. I, however, look at USB2 from the perspective of needing to convince me that it is truly better that FW1. My opinion, it's not - in fact, I see it just a tick below "as good", but mainly due to the fact that USB2 is only as fast as it's slowest device (USB2 has only one bus as standard so I run into this). FW dosen't have this limitation. The rest of the specs I couldn't give two hot dogs and a thumbtack about.

But that's just me.

As for wide adoption? Well, it will be interesting to see, and I'm watching...

Aren't computers fun?

[Gus]

Hmmm...

Maybe Intel or whoever should have given up on USB 2 in favor of Firewire instead of being self-serving and forcing companies and consumers to buy peripherals with USB 2 instead of FW. Since FW was out and adopted long before USB 2, then it seems that the PC makers are the self-serving ones who purposely chose a technology that was not adopted to avoid using Apple's technology.

Of course, I may be just full of it too. :)

Regards,
Gus

[Kwyjibo]

You said Apple should offer upgrades to protect their consumer's investment. Unfourtunatley for a purcahase to qualify as an investment it must be "Property or another possession acquired for future financial return or benefit." So really anything (ie. a car, computer, or other tangible non -antique item) is not an investment at all. i wish people would reaslize this and stop using it improperly but thats just my pet peeve. I'm sure i'll get flamed to death for this but atleast i know i'm right.

[beatle888]

have you been reading "rich dad, poor dad"?
:D

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by Kwyjibo
You said Apple should offer upgrades to protect their consumer's investment. Unfourtunatley for a purcahase to qualify as an investment it must be "Property or another possession acquired for future financial return or benefit." So really anything (ie. a car, computer, or other tangible non -antique item) is not an investment at all. i wish people would reaslize this and stop using it improperly but thats just my pet peeve. I'm sure i'll get flamed to death for this but atleast i know i'm right.

Kwyjibo I see what you are saying but I have to disagree. If your car or computer is the source of your income then it is an investment.

Just out of curiousity how does it feel to know yer right? :p


Lethal

[Kwyjibo]

First off being right is like being taken to a magical place, I haven't been reading financial trash like that "rich dad, poor dad" stuff. Its just one of those things my econ 101 teacher stressed and over stressed so it bothers me now, i guess its sort of buried deep inside of me.

[yzedf]

usb 2 has it's advantages.

it is the same port as usb 1.1

fw800 is a 9pin, whereas fw400 is either 4 or 6.

if a usb 2 device is plugged into a 1.1 port, it works automatically (in a rather mac-like way...) at usb 1.1 speeds. can't do that with fw800 on a fw400 system. needs an adaptor (think dvi).

there is no real reason to NOT have usb 2. it is essentially the same price, and all of you mac zealots would be preaching apple's insightful adoption of emerging technology, again.

[CrackedButter]

Excuse me but USB 2 GO is not even meant for computers its another type of USB that will not work with the standard USB on pc's its simply to allow PDA's to quickly connect to a printers with USB2GO thereby skipping the PC.

Its only meant for small devices to quickly exchange information, simply plug and transfere. Unlike with a PC where it has to be turned on or loaded up, plug it in let the OS detect it (if it does) transfere data then eject it.

MS (in the reveiw i read) is concerned about this because a computer isn't needed so why should apple use it if its NOT meant for computers?

[Sun Baked]

Originally posted by MorganX
Motorola just signed on. Needs USB 2.0. I'm really starting to have doubts about buying an iMac. I still have a week to cancel, it's not due until 3/3/03. I just don't know.

Would be nice if Apple resolved to make motherboard upgrades available to protect it's customers investments. Apple does package some nice upgrade for iMac owners, it's called a brand new computer.

The only computer that is upgradeable (sort of), and you can add feature to, is the PowerMac. That is if the feature and upgrade you are hoping for fits in a standard PCI slot.

The PowerMac has an actual AGP slot, CPU daughter card, and some PCI slots -- these can be used to upgrade the video, CPU, and plug in expansion cards. Since none of the other computers offer any of these slots, because it's all soldered to the motherboard, you have to upgrade through replacement of the equipment.

So if being able to upgrade later to USB 2.0 is important, buy a PowerMac ...

Hint on PowerMac - Cheap VGA monitors work and reduce the price of the purchase.

[LosJackal]

HERE ARE THE FACTS. Debate your opinions if you still want to.

MorganX has faulty argument/concern to begin with. USB-on-the-go may require USB2, the iMac doesn't have USB2, so he's reconsidering purchasing an iMac.

Well, USB-on-the-go is intended to bypass a computer, so worrying that a computer won't support USB-on-the-go is illogical....at least at this juncture where we don't know what role a computer could have in a USB-on-the-go scenario.

You will not be left "out in the cold" by Macs not using USB2. The cell/pda device can still communicate with your Mac via USB1. The transfer speed should be sufficient for that small amount of information that you won't miss USB2 that much.

Digital camcorders certainly may be including USB2 now as well, but it's for transferring the still photos camcorders can take now too. Firewire has been the defacto interface for pulling video off of the device. I will be surprised to find the first non-Firewire camcorder out there, but I'm sure it will arrive sometime, if not already.

USB2 vs Firewire: USB2 is certainly slower in real-world testing. Now Firewire 800 is poised to blow away USB2, as long as the peripherals will be affordable and can take advantage of 400+ speeds. You want to be mad at a manufacturer? Why doesn't Sony and the other people who include IEEE-1394 ports use 6-pin instead of 4-pin? 4-pin means you can't get power from it...that more of a sign of not serving your customers.

As for Apple and USB2, the one and only reason is because (you guessed it) it would take attention away from Firewire. That's a marketing decision. Firewire is a superior method, but yes someday USB2 will be prevalent. Maybe Firewire 800 will prove it's might by that time too. The fact is, we're not there yet, because so MANY people out there with other Windows machines do not have USB2 either. Yes, they have upgrade options (so do PowerMac people), but that involves expense and effort. USB2 as the clear choice for high-speed data transfer has not happened yet.

P.S. Think of Bluetooth as replacing infrared for syncing with cell phones and PDAs. It is slower than USB, but much more convenient. It can do the USB-on-the-go stuff without wires.

[MisterMe]

Originally posted by patrick0brien
....

Apple did introduce the world to USB 1 in the first place. Sure the didn't invent the technology, Intel did that, but they did set the standard, from an introductory standpoint. USB2 is nifty, but just not a clear improvement over FireWire 400. You still need drivers and even then it may never reach the ceiling of it's theoretical max of 480....
Actually, Intel did not invent USB unless by invent you mean purchase. And another thing, USB 2 cannot touch FireWire 400. USB is a client-server technology. FireWire is peer-to-peer. For USB to communicate between any two devices, it must use a computer as an intermediary. This incurs a substantial overhead (up to 100%) on your data transmission, and binds your CPU to a task that is better left to superior technology. FireWire requires no such intermediary. Connect your FireWire-enabled DV camera to your FireWire-enabled DVD recorder and you're set. USB 2 is faster than USB 1.1, but it really is the answer to a question that no one asked.

[MorganX]

Originally posted by LosJackal
HERE ARE THE FACTS. Debate your opinions if you still want to.

MorganX has faulty argument/concern to begin with. USB-on-the-go may require USB2, the iMac doesn't have USB2, so he's reconsidering purchasing an iMac.

Well, USB-on-the-go is intended to bypass a computer, so worrying that a computer won't support USB-on-the-go is illogical....at least at this juncture where we don't know what role a computer could have in a USB-on-the-go scenario.

You will not be left "out in the cold" by Macs not using USB2. The cell/pda device can still communicate with your Mac via USB1. The transfer speed should be sufficient for that small amount of information that you won't miss USB2 that much.

USB2 vs Firewire: USB2 is certainly slower in real-world testing. Now Firewire 800 is poised to blow away USB2, as long as the peripherals will be affordable and can take advantage of 400+ speeds. You want to be mad at a manufacturer? Why doesn't Sony and the other people who include IEEE-1394 ports use 6-pin instead of 4-pin? 4-pin means you can't get power from it...that more of a sign of not serving your customers.

If you stand behind the notion that a maximum of 12Mbs will be sufficient, then you have a counter argument. However, I believe the existence of Firewire and USB2 have shown that this is not the case. Speed is king. USB2 is slower in some tests, faster in others. In either direction, the differences are minimal.

As for USB2 vs Firewire, on major advantage when it comes to DLDs, is the low power requirements of USB2. That is why Firewire is not a part of this solution. I believe a low power implementation for Firewire is in the works. How far off it is I don't know. This is probably why many manufacturers use 4-pin connectors.

What we do know, is that USB2 is on a clear path to becoming the defacto standard for high speed connectivity between DLDs and the PC and between DLDs and other peripherals. As sure as even the cheapest PC M/Bs have adopted USB2.

Relying on diminished performance using backwards compatibility with USB1 is a mistake IMO. Apple should 1) embrace USB2 or 2) get the low power Firewire spec out the door in a hurry and drop licensing fees.

[MorganX]

Originally posted by Gus
Since FW was out and adopted long before USB 2.

FW was not widely adopted as an interconnect between PCs and PC peripherals. Primarily due to licensing. Apple nees to realize all money isn't good money.

Spare Steve the Jet, and then renting it from him. And give Firewire away.

Intel can build USB 2.0 into its chipsets. This is a benefit to consumers. Apple simply cannot do this. They on reach 3-7% of the market at any given time. Until that number increases, they should embrace and extend.