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MacRumors
Jun 5, 2006, 08:02 AM
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The BBC is reporting (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/5041684.stm) that an influential group of MPs in the UK Parliament is seeking to place a warning label on devices that contain DRM technology that would spell out how easy it is to move content from one gadget to another. Also being called for is an inquiry into online music store pricing.

While this appears to a first for requiring warning labels for DRM-enabled media players, similar inquiries into online music store price fixing have appeared (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/03/20060303143709.shtml) in the U.S.

baleensavage
Jun 5, 2006, 08:12 AM
I'd like to see some type of label on CDs as to what copy-protection they have after that Sony fiasco. It's one of the reasons I buy a bunch of stuff on iTunes, at least they disclose what the DRM is on their songs. When you buy a CD you have no idea whether it will even allow you to put it in your computer or not.

~Shard~
Jun 5, 2006, 08:16 AM
I would like to know what DRM is incorporated into media I buy so that I have a good idea of how hard it would be to circumvent it... ;)

dr_lha
Jun 5, 2006, 08:24 AM
I'd like to see some type of label on CDs as to what copy-protection they have after that Sony fiasco. It's one of the reasons I buy a bunch of stuff on iTunes, at least they disclose what the DRM is on their songs. When you buy a CD you have no idea whether it will even allow you to put it in your computer or not.
I believe that this is exactly one of things they are talking about doing. BTW - why are people voting negative on this story? If you vote negative you clearly hate consumer rights. Having DRM encumbered media being labelled as such is a good thing.

jaxstate
Jun 5, 2006, 08:32 AM
How do you know what type of DRM comes on the items you buy from iTunes...it's beacause u follow Apple. I'm sure the people who followed Sony knew about the DRM.
I'd like to see some type of label on CDs as to what copy-protection they have after that Sony fiasco. It's one of the reasons I buy a bunch of stuff on iTunes, at least they disclose what the DRM is on their songs. When you buy a CD you have no idea whether it will even allow you to put it in your computer or not.

ATG
Jun 5, 2006, 08:34 AM
I would like to know what DRM is incorporated into media I buy so that I have a good idea of how hard it would be to circumvent it... ;)
Lol :D

I hardly buy any CDs anymore this doesn't affect me.

People will always vote negative. People would vote negative if apple gave MBPs away for free to everybody.

grockk
Jun 5, 2006, 08:35 AM
I believe that this is exactly one of things they are talking about doing. BTW - why are people voting negative on this story? If you vote negative you clearly hate consumer rights. Having DRM encumbered media being labelled as such is a good thing.

Because voting here doesn't ever make any sense. Are you voting positive for the story? Positive for the information? Positive because you like it, negative you don't? positive because you are having a good day. Positive cuz you believe it, or negative cuz you don't. Positive because you want it to be true, negative because you don't.

There's no definition of why to vote any which way. So these votes never make sense.

gekko513
Jun 5, 2006, 08:36 AM
How do you know what type of DRM comes on the items you buy from iTunes...it's beacause u follow Apple. I'm sure the people who followed Sony knew about the DRM.
There are a lot of people who don't follow Apple or Sony and still buy products from them.

~Shard~
Jun 5, 2006, 08:38 AM
Lol :D

I hardly buy any CDs anymore this doesn't affect me.

Yeah, come to think of it, me neither... ;)

People will always vote negative. People would vote negative if apple gave MBPs away for free to everybody.

Of course they would, because this would be viewed as a poor business decision on Apple's part which would negatively affect their bottom line. Plus, who would want a free MBP? :p ;) :D

aegisdesign
Jun 5, 2006, 08:45 AM
How do you know what type of DRM comes on the items you buy from iTunes...it's beacause u follow Apple. I'm sure the people who followed Sony knew about the DRM.

Rubbish.

The iTunes Music store has it's Terms of Service on the bottom of the screen and IIRC when you sign up for iTMS it shows them then also.

Sony didn't state that their DRM scheme required installing a rootkit.

hob
Jun 5, 2006, 08:47 AM
This could affect Apples UK sales of iPods...

that being said, just about everyone I know who would want an iPod has one... it's just whether or not they will buy another one when their old one becomes defunct.

Also, the iPod halo effect seems to be kicking in - many of my friends are now buying macs!!

Applespider
Jun 5, 2006, 08:57 AM
Fine... so long as when they force Apple to open up Fairplay, they force Microsoft to make WMP platform-agnostic too.

To be honest, I have a Mac and I have an iPod. I've never hit an iTunes 'limit' yet with anything I've bought for use in a photo slideshow, an iMovie or just burning a CD.

My risk is if I decide to make my next music player not an iPod when I'd be faced with rebuying/burning my music again. Or if they change the goalposts as to the burn limits etc.

What always gets me about DRM is that it limits the average consumer more than those that it's defined to stop. They always find a way around it that Joe Bloggs doesn't have the time/skill to achieve. Result: there's still piracy but the consumer is worse off.

jaxstate
Jun 5, 2006, 08:57 AM
So, what's your point?
There are a lot of people who don't follow Apple or Sony and still buy products from them.
We're talkin about whether people know about DRM when buying products from Apple/Sony.

This is true, but how many people read the terms of service.
Rubbish.
The iTunes Music store has it's Terms of Service on the bottom of the screen and IIRC when you sign up for iTMS it shows them then also.

Sony didn't state that their DRM scheme required installing a rootkit.
My aunt bought one of those DRM cd's, and ended up having to reinstall Windows.

ianeiloart
Jun 5, 2006, 09:05 AM
The BBC is reporting (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/5041684.stm) that an influential group of MPs in the UK Parliament is seeking to place a warning label on devices that contain DRM technology...


No, they're not recommending labelling devices (like iPods), they're recommending labelling content: "We recommend that the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) bring forward appropriate labelling regulations so that it will become crystal clear to consumers what they will and will not be able to do with digital content that they purchase." What they can do with the content has little to do with the device, and much to do with the DRM wrappers on the content.

The full report is here (http://www.apig.org.uk/current-activities/apig-inquiry-into-digital-rights-management.html).

gekko513
Jun 5, 2006, 09:13 AM
So, what's your point?

We're talkin about whether people know about DRM when buying products from Apple/Sony.
You said that people who follow Sony probably knew about their DRM, which doesn't really matter since there are probably lots of people who buy from the iTMS without understanding the DRM just as there were lots of people who bought Sony CDs that didn't know what kind of DRM they used.

bigandy
Jun 5, 2006, 09:34 AM
while a good idea from consumer points of view i sincerely hope that they don't poke apple in the eye by pointing out the closed system of iPod/iTunes as a bad thing and Windows Media devices as a good thing...

akhomerun
Jun 5, 2006, 10:00 AM
this is actually really a great idea. if people are more aware of DRM (non-technical people really don't have a clue) then it will really hurt companies with restrictive DRM.

plus, they could make them look like warnings on cigarette packages.

jaxstate
Jun 5, 2006, 10:01 AM
Wrong. What I was saying that the reason why he knew about the DRM that Apple used is because he follows Apple. And that someone that followed Sony would have know about the DRM. And these numbers would be small. How many regular joes read the license agreement
You said that people who follow Sony probably knew about their DRM, which doesn't really matter since there are probably lots of people who buy from the iTMS without understanding the DRM just as there were lots of people who bought Sony CDs that didn't know what kind of DRM they used.

gekko513
Jun 5, 2006, 10:03 AM
Wrong. What I was saying that the reason why he knew about the DRM that Apple used is because he follows Apple. And that someone that followed Sony would have know about the DRM. And these numbers would be small. How many regular joes read the license agreement
OK, so we have the same point then. I'm glad we agree. :D Sorry for the misunderstanding.

baleensavage
Jun 5, 2006, 10:16 AM
There are a lot of people who don't follow Apple or Sony and still buy products from them.
Apple posts theirs every time you update it and they have a page about it on their Web site too (http://www.apple.com/support/itunes/musicstore/authorization/). As far as I know, you couldn't even find out Sony's if you call them. It ceartainly isn't apparent anywhere on their Web site. It took an expert user finding the root kit and alerting the media for them to come clean about that. The music industry is constantly expirementing with new forms of copy protection on new CDs. In the past these have included root kits which open your computer to hackers, CDs that can damage a computer's cd drive and copy protection that will only work in Windows Media format and therefore not on iPod's. This right here is the reason I don't buy CDs any more. I'm not going to shell out $20 for something that may or may not work on my iPod and may or may not damage my computer.

Now if only they'd get some labelling like this in the U.S...

miketcool
Jun 5, 2006, 10:18 AM
People will always vote negative. People would vote negative if apple gave MBPs away for free to everybody.

What! Free MBP's?? Okay, Apple has lost it if they are just giving them away. What a huge loss in capital, loss in profits. How can anyone (investors) trust them again after this fiasco. I'm voting negative, as many times as I can!

amateurmacfreak
Jun 5, 2006, 10:18 AM
How do you know what type of DRM comes on the items you buy from iTunes...it's beacause u follow Apple. I'm sure the people who followed Sony knew about the DRM.
It's not hard to find out in 2 seconds online what kind of DRM is on stuff iTunes sells, and I even kind of figured it out when I didn't closely follow Apple just by buying stuff.... it's easy to figure out, imo.

jaxstate
Jun 5, 2006, 10:41 AM
;)
OK, so we have the same point then. I'm glad we agree. :D Sorry for the misunderstanding.
I'm sure there are many people out there that don't know that they can't use their MP3's from iTunes on other non iPod products.

bretm
Jun 5, 2006, 10:44 AM
This is true, but how many people read the terms of service.

My aunt bought one of those DRM cd's, and ended up having to reinstall Windows.

So the music broke windows! You kids and your loud music! :p

Collin973
Jun 5, 2006, 11:48 AM
What does this all mean? Sorry for sounding stupid...

jer2eydevil88
Jun 5, 2006, 12:38 PM
I for one welcome this! Apple's fairplay is a great DRM but it is still a DRM and thats lousy.

pounce
Jun 5, 2006, 01:01 PM
this is actually really a great idea. if people are more aware of DRM (non-technical people really don't have a clue) then it will really hurt companies with restrictive DRM.

plus, they could make them look like warnings on cigarette packages.

no, no, no this is completely stupid and useless.

non technical people still won't have any idea what is going on and trying to scare them with warning labels won't help that. also, almost all digital content is going to have some drm, as well it should, and therefore everyone will eventually stop looking at labels like that anyway.

sony totally ****ed up the whole thing because they went entirely too far with a so called drm effort. on the other hand, having -some- drm is a totally fair and expected thing from content creators. for instance, the drm that apple uses is close to perfect for me. works on my computers and ipod, i never have to think about it, i can burn cd's or whatever. perfect.

it isn't now the case that folks who buy a song own it the way that the creators of those songs own them, and as such some drm will exist for the forseeable future. it's a good idea too. in the same way that locks keep honest people honest, drm diminishes the temptation to steal intellectual property.

Lollypop
Jun 5, 2006, 01:05 PM
I think this is a good idea, to many people dont know what DRM is, this way they are forced to know. It wont only influence apple but M$ as well, the exact terms of the drm will become much more important now.

zim
Jun 5, 2006, 01:18 PM
;)

I'm sure there are many people out there that don't know that they can't use their MP3's from iTunes on other non iPod products.

Best to say that audio files from the iTMS can only be used on iPods and iTMS compatible devices, such as iTMS compatible cell phones. Saying that MP3's from iTunes can not play is too general because iTunes does not place DRM on mp3s nor aac (the default option for iTunes) music files when the files are generated from CDs.

wnurse
Jun 5, 2006, 01:51 PM
Rubbish.

The iTunes Music store has it's Terms of Service on the bottom of the screen and IIRC when you sign up for iTMS it shows them then also.

Sony didn't state that their DRM scheme required installing a rootkit.

Apple terms of service does not spell out how their DRM is implemented either. So what is your point?. I think the original poster had it right. Really, who pays attention to a TOS?. Yes Sony implemented their DRM as a rootkit but they could have implemented it many ways. Are you saying SONY stated that they implemented a DRM but not the technique or are you saying they did not even state they were implementing a DRM?. Other than knowing that apple DRM is fairplay, are you sure you know (or even the average consumer) how this DRM is implemented?. I'm sure SONY did mention a "usage rules" as Apple TOS seems to call their DRM (they never mention fairplay or the words DRM).

wnurse
Jun 5, 2006, 01:55 PM
You said that people who follow Sony probably knew about their DRM, which doesn't really matter since there are probably lots of people who buy from the iTMS without understanding the DRM just as there were lots of people who bought Sony CDs that didn't know what kind of DRM they used.

Gekko, you must be slow. Real slow. You are making his point. His point was that lots of people buy from ITMS without understanding the DRM just as they did the SONY cd's without understanding the DRM.

Never mind, read later on and see that you both kinda reached an understanding that you were talking about the same thing. I guess another advice i should follow is to read all the replies and counter replies before replying :-).

gekko513
Jun 5, 2006, 01:57 PM
wnurse: Thanks for that. Perhaps you should read a few more posts of the thread yourself.

wnurse
Jun 5, 2006, 02:02 PM
wnurse: Thanks for that. Perhaps you should read a few more posts of the thread yourself.

Yes, i did fall on my sword (see the edited post). I'm a fair guy. I can admit when i'm wrong (if it's apparent).

gekko513
Jun 5, 2006, 02:04 PM
Yes, i did fall on my sword (see the edited post). I'm a fair guy. I can admit when i'm wrong (if it's apparent).
Then we're all friends. Good. :) It's not often I get to make up with people twice in a thread.

Johnny Rico
Jun 5, 2006, 02:06 PM
What always gets me about DRM is that it limits the average consumer more than those that it's defined to stop. They always find a way around it that Joe Bloggs doesn't have the time/skill to achieve. Result: there's still piracy but the consumer is worse off.
This pretty much sums up the DRM issue. People who want to steal will always do so. Companies retaliate and punish everyone, and in turn people get pissed at the company and steal more. Cycle repeats.

wnurse
Jun 5, 2006, 02:15 PM
This pretty much sums up the DRM issue. People who want to steal will always do so. Companies retaliate and punish everyone, and in turn people get pissed at the company and steal more. Cycle repeats.

I would disagree slightly in that not every thief skill is the same. I will do an analogy (even though i think analogies are not perfect) about a car alarm or even a home alarm system. The casual thief is dissuaded but the real expert thief is not. It's all about reducing the numbers. Music companies are not under the illusion that they can stamp out piracy 100% but they can stamp out to some extent. My neice and nephews like music (they are teenagers and many parents are familiar with teenages constantly blasting music). Their talent for circumventing a DRM is limited to non-existent. Before DRM, they would definetly always steal their music. So yes, there is a subset of people who have the necessary technical abilities to circumvent DRM's but the DRM is meant to stop the casual thief (whew.. what a long post.. man, i must have time on my hands)

Desperado
Jun 5, 2006, 02:38 PM
Is it necessary to use the term 'thiefery' when you basically mean
'copyright infrigment'?

Johnny Rico
Jun 5, 2006, 03:02 PM
I would disagree slightly in that not every thief skill is the same. I will do an analogy (even though i think analogies are not perfect) about a car alarm or even a home alarm system. The casual thief is dissuaded but the real expert thief is not. It's all about reducing the numbers. Music companies are not under the illusion that they can stamp out piracy 100% but they can stamp out to some extent. My neice and nephews like music (they are teenagers and many parents are familiar with teenages constantly blasting music). Their talent for circumventing a DRM is limited to non-existent. Before DRM, they would definetly always steal their music. So yes, there is a subset of people who have the necessary technical abilities to circumvent DRM's but the DRM is meant to stop the casual thief (whew.. what a long post.. man, i must have time on my hands)
Why does DRM prevent them from stealing music as much as they would "before" DRM? Either way you're getting on some kind of 'trading' system and downloading unprotected files. The existence of DRM causes people like your relatives to try and avoid it by downloading unprotected files instead of purchasing or trying to rip protected music in order to avoid those protections. We aren't talking about a high tech reverse engineer programming criminal ring here.. We're talking about people downloading for free instead of paying because what you get for free is less restricted than what you would pay for. And to think that there is a pair of teenagers alive who used to "definitely always steal their music", but now that we have DRM, they don't know how to steal music, is just ignorant.

SPUY767
Jun 5, 2006, 03:02 PM
This should be a pretty good deal for apple as Fair Play is miles simpler than other DRM formats. Even Plays for Sure has about fifteen different variants depending on what music store you go to. That means that any device supporting plays for sure will have a much lengthier description of its DRM than an iPod.

wnurse
Jun 5, 2006, 03:48 PM
Why does DRM prevent them from stealing music as much as they would "before" DRM? Either way you're getting on some kind of 'trading' system and downloading unprotected files. The existence of DRM causes people like your relatives to try and avoid it by downloading unprotected files instead of purchasing or trying to rip protected music in order to avoid those protections. We aren't talking about a high tech reverse engineer programming criminal ring here.. We're talking about people downloading for free instead of paying because what you get for free is less restricted than what you would pay for. And to think that there is a pair of teenagers alive who used to "definitely always steal their music", but now that we have DRM, they don't know how to steal music, is just ignorant.

Yeah as if the people getting free music would have bought music if DRM was not in place, and you talk about ignorance!!!. The whole point of DRM is to make music file trading illegal. Then the music companies can go legally after the music file traders and individuals (as they did and are doing). Soon i suspect that the music industry will persuade some court (i haven't a clue why they havenn't done this yet) that any non-drm music is illegal and that possesing music in non-drm form requires you to possess it in drm form. IE, you can only have non-drm if you had ripped from a drm. Imagine having to explain how you have in your possession a mp3 of Bon Jovi but not the drm version?. The legal framework is being laid. I presume some intelligent music executive will soon start making all new releases in DRM'd format only. Thus, those file sharing networks that proclaim ignorance and say "hey, we are the good guys, we don't do anything wrong, we just facilitate file trading.. we don't keep the music on our servers".. will lose that argument if the music industry go in that direction.

wnurse
Jun 5, 2006, 05:00 PM
Is it necessary to use the term 'thiefery' when you basically mean
'copyright infrigment'?

I meant thiefery. Copyright infringment means using someone else work in your product... Thiefery is acquiring a product that is not yours without paying. It is possible to pay for a something and then use that product in a manner that is defined as copyright infringement.. nice try Desperado.

fatfish
Jun 5, 2006, 05:20 PM
I'll go with a label on media, I don't buy any Cd's anymore, but my kids do and usually lose them or damage them after a few days, so I like them to be able to back them up on their macs. I don't know that a warning would be the right phrase, information would be a better phrase.

Labels on media players, no thank you, if you can't be bothered to look into what your buying, you desrve what you get. Moreover though it would be too complicated:
Will/won't play itms music, will/won't play napster music, etc etc. will/won't play AAC, will won't play wma, will/won't play apple lossless etc etc. will won't play itms TV shows, will/won't play disney TV shows etc etc, will/won't play mpeg2, will won't play mp4.

Sure would spoil Apples stylish packaging.

veneficuss
Jun 5, 2006, 06:44 PM
Wow - Macs really are for idiots, aren't they?

Billy Boo Bob
Jun 6, 2006, 02:55 AM
Wow - Macs really are for idiots, aren't they?
Saying that Macintosh is inferior to Windows because more people use Windows is like saying that all restaurants are inferior to McDonalds.

Borrowed / copied / plagiarized quote.

Abstract
Jun 6, 2006, 04:36 AM
Wow - Macs really are for idiots, aren't they?


EDIT: Never mind. I really don't wanna be bothered correcting this guy.

spacehog371
Jun 6, 2006, 01:57 PM
Lets just leave DRM alone... no label needed.

iflipper
Jun 7, 2006, 03:39 AM
I would disagree slightly in that not every thief skill is the same. I will do an analogy (even though i think analogies are not perfect) about a car alarm or even a home alarm system. The casual thief is dissuaded but the real expert thief is not. It's all about reducing the numbers. Music companies are not under the illusion that they can stamp out piracy 100% but they can stamp out to some extent. My neice and nephews like music (they are teenagers and many parents are familiar with teenages constantly blasting music). Their talent for circumventing a DRM is limited to non-existent. Before DRM, they would definetly always steal their music. So yes, there is a subset of people who have the necessary technical abilities to circumvent DRM's but the DRM is meant to stop the casual thief (whew.. what a long post.. man, i must have time on my hands)
I don't think circumventing DRM is really an issue for some teens, they will just download the mp3 from someone who has already done it.