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MacRumors
Jul 13, 2006, 10:21 PM
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Macworld has posted a roundup of recent analyst speculation (http://www.macworld.com/news/2006/07/13/blurayapple/index.php) on the possibility of Apple using Blu-ray in forthcoming products. Most analysts seem to agree that Apple will first include the technology on its professional "Mac Pro" line before transitioning it to its consumer products.

"Apple’s past practices favor bringing new optical technologies to professional systems first,” said Jupiter Research senior analyst Joe Wilcox. “DVD-RAM and DVD-R formats are excellent examples.”

The exact timing of Blu-ray's introduction into the Mac Pro is uncertain, however.

Ross Rubin, director of analysis at market-research firm NPD Group, agrees that Apple will work with the professional machines first. However, noting that Intel-based pro desktops have yet to appear, he predicts Blu-ray drives won’t wind up in Apple systems for a few more months.

“January would be good—the timing for that would work out pretty well,” Rubin said. “It comes down to the introduction cycle, but we would see it in desktops first, no doubt.”

Blu-ray is a next-generation optical disk format that can hold up to 25 GB of data per layer compared to rival HD DVD's 15 GB per layer. In April, TDK produced a 6 layer Blu-ray disk (http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2006/04/28/tdk_200gb_blu-ray_disc/) that could hold up to 200 GB when the single-layer maximum was pushed to 33 GB. Currently, Blu-ray players are scarce and cost over $1000 USD, and the format has seen several delays. Much of the industry is watching Sony's Playstation 3 (http://www.us.playstation.com/PS3/default.html) game console which is expected to arrive in November 2006 and should push Blu-ray prices down.

Apple joined Blu-ray's Board of Directors (http://www.macworld.com/news/2005/03/10/bluray/index.php) in March of 2005.

Digg This (http://digg.com/apple/Mac_Pro_And_Bluray_Speculation)

Chef Medeski
Jul 13, 2006, 10:24 PM
So, how long till it comes to laptops? :D

And on top of that, its only going to be a viewer, right? I mean have they created any Blu-ray burners, yet?

I really don't want to buy a Macbook Pro until it has Merom, 802.11n, and blue-ray, cause I know those are all going to be standard in less than a year and I can't afford to have a crippled laptop for 3 yrs.

Hopefully it won't be too far, I've saved enough cash.

mduser63
Jul 13, 2006, 10:27 PM
So, how long till it comes to laptops? :D

And on top of that, its only going to be a viewer, right? I mean have they created any Blu-ray burners, yet?

Yes, Blu-Ray burners for computers are already available from Pioneer and a few other companies.

angelwatt
Jul 13, 2006, 10:28 PM
Well I hope it doesn't come too soon. Blu-ray is just too expensive right now and it would jack up Mac cost significantly. It's also better to see how the Blu-ray vs HD DVD thing works out as well just to make sure Apple doesn't back a dead horse.

rxse7en
Jul 13, 2006, 10:32 PM
Put it in the Core 2 Duo Macbook Pro 17" and I'm all over it. Would still like to see if HD-DVD prevails.

Now, I have a plasma hdtv that'll "do" 1080i and a dvd player that can output and upscale (if needed) to 1080i--can I burn 1080i sources and play the BR disk in my dvd player OR will I also need a BR player to view HD video? 25gb per side is a nice chunk o' storage though.

B

galstaph
Jul 13, 2006, 10:32 PM
imagine the data you could put onto those disks though!

longofest
Jul 13, 2006, 10:37 PM
So, how long till it comes to laptops? :D

And on top of that, its only going to be a viewer, right? I mean have they created any Blu-ray burners, yet?

I really don't want to buy a Macbook Pro until it has Merom, 802.11n, and blue-ray, cause I know those are all going to be standard in less than a year and I can't afford to have a crippled laptop for 3 yrs.

Hopefully it won't be too far, I've saved enough cash.

Really, the only company that is actually selling laptops with Bluray drives in them currently is Sony with their Viao. Pioneer has a desktop reader, but it is very expensive (around $1000 USD). BenQ has recently announced that in late August it will be shipping a Bluray burner for a bit above $1000, but not sure if its going to be availbable in the US. The prices are pretty fixed mainly because of Sony apparently. I couldn't really go into it in the story, but there is soooo much to this whole Bluray thing, its ridiculous.

The focal point of Bluray has really turned on Sony's Playstation 3. There are a lot of conspiracy theories (that supposedly have a lot of reason behind them) that Sony isn't letting the price of Bluray players go down until the Playstation 3 comes out.

Then you have the format war between HD DVD and Bluray. HD DVD has not only beaten Bluray to the market, but is beating them on price as well, although not as dramatically as once thought might happen.

I speculate that we could see a Bluray drive as a build to order option perhaps in the first revision of the Mac Pro, or perhaps as standard in the high-end model, but that very well could not happen until the first revision like the analyst said early next year.

tangerineyum
Jul 13, 2006, 10:38 PM
So, how long till it comes to laptops? :D

And on top of that, its only going to be a viewer, right? I mean have they created any Blu-ray burners, yet?

I really don't want to buy a Macbook Pro until it has Merom, 802.11n, and blue-ray, cause I know those are all going to be standard in less than a year and I can't afford to have a crippled laptop for 3 yrs.

Hopefully it won't be too far, I've saved enough cash.

all going to be standard ? how long did it take for wireless g and dvd burners to become standard? :rolleyes:

ham_man
Jul 13, 2006, 10:38 PM
If they do decide to add it, it better be BTO only. I don't wanna buy a computer that's $500 more because of a Blu-Ray drive I don't want...

twoodcc
Jul 13, 2006, 10:42 PM
dang, that would be awesome. i just hope i can buy one and put it in an external enclosure and have my mac be able to use it

rockthecasbah
Jul 13, 2006, 10:46 PM
I'm sure that the drive with be built-to-order only. They are far too expensive and appeal to such a small audience (right now) that having it standard would just iritate people buying pro line equipment who don't need these drives yet because of the unnecessary costs.

chasingapple
Jul 13, 2006, 10:49 PM
I say no thanks. Optical storage is way too slow! Why should I pay $1000 to get a 33GB disc that is slow on accessing when I can spend WAY LESS and use another harddrive thats 300GB+ and rewritable, or buy a 100 pack of DVD-R's for $10? I for one dont see this HD-DVD / Bluray thing getting big anytime soon, and Im sure as hell not going to rebuy my DVD collection, higher res or no higher res, I mean hell... I dont even have an HD TV yet,too damn expensive!

Apple - wait on this one please. Just put superdrives in everything and leave the combo drive in the past.

tipdrill407
Jul 13, 2006, 10:53 PM
Put it in the Core 2 Duo Macbook Pro 17" and I'm all over it. Would still like to see if HD-DVD prevails.

Now, I have a plasma hdtv that'll "do" 1080i and a dvd player that can output and upscale (if needed) to 1080i--can I burn 1080i sources and play the BR disk in my dvd player OR will I also need a BR player to view HD video? 25gb per side is a nice chunk o' storage though.

B

You'll neet a blu ray player. A non blu-ray dvd player does not have the correct laser to read a blu ray disc.

wmmk
Jul 13, 2006, 11:02 PM
Will I be able to get a reasonably priced apple laptop with merom, 802.11n, blueray burner, possibly HD, and leopard (or whatever 10.6 is called) in late 2007 or early 2008?

JackSYi
Jul 13, 2006, 11:03 PM
I bet it will be BTO when it is introduced at WWDC.

DTphonehome
Jul 13, 2006, 11:07 PM
I say no thanks. Optical storage is way too slow! Why should I pay $1000 to get a 33GB disc that is slow on accessing when I can spend WAY LESS and use another harddrive thats 300GB+ and rewritable, or buy a 100 pack of DVD-R's for $10? I for one dont see this HD-DVD / Bluray thing getting big anytime soon, and Im sure as hell not going to rebuy my DVD collection, higher res or no higher res, I mean hell... I dont even have an HD TV yet,too damn expensive!

Apple - wait on this one please. Just put superdrives in everything and leave the combo drive in the past.

Yeah! Since this guy doesn't want it, neither do the rest of us!

wmmk
Jul 13, 2006, 11:08 PM
I bet it will be BTO when it is introduced at WWDC.
I'd think the option would come a bit later. I mean, who wants an optical drive that can currently play nothing and burn to nothing which will cost them $500-$1000 on a machine that is already very pricey.

iris_failsafe
Jul 13, 2006, 11:10 PM
I think is too early for either HDDVD or Blue-Ray, maybe have it as a built to order option?

It makes more sense than to put it as standard equipment

Fuchal
Jul 13, 2006, 11:14 PM
HD-DVD all the way.

wmmk
Jul 13, 2006, 11:17 PM
Yeah! Since this guy doesn't want it, neither do the rest of us!
Actually, he has a point. Bluray is not currently at a reasonable price, and doing away with combo drives would be a bigger deal than getting Bluray for at least 70% of users.

sushi
Jul 13, 2006, 11:18 PM
I say no thanks. Optical storage is way too slow! Why should I pay $1000 to get a 33GB disc that is slow on accessing when I can spend WAY LESS and use another harddrive thats 300GB+ and rewritable, or buy a 100 pack of DVD-R's for $10? I for one dont see this HD-DVD / Bluray thing getting big anytime soon, and Im sure as hell not going to rebuy my DVD collection, higher res or no higher res, I mean hell... I dont even have an HD TV yet,too damn expensive!
Good points.

Apple - wait on this one please. Just put superdrives in everything and leave the combo drive in the past.
I agree with your concept.

However, I wonder what the actual cost difference is to Apple for a Combo vice Superdrive? Surely it can't be that much.

wmmk
Jul 13, 2006, 11:23 PM
HD-DVD all the way.
I respect your opinion, but why do you think that HD-DVD is better? The price aspect? In that case, I'd agree, but doubt that Apple or Sony would, because they always tend to try to have the newest top of the line stuff. Then again, Apple is a supporter of both HD-DVD an BluRay, which could really play out in an interesting way.

Hollis
Jul 13, 2006, 11:23 PM
I'd think the option would come a bit later. I mean, who wants an optical drive that can currently play nothing and burn to nothing which will cost them $500-$1000 on a machine that is already very pricey.

Theres movies on Blu-Ray already.. and you can buy discs to burn too already... I think a BTO option is perfectly reasonable.

AvSRoCkCO1067
Jul 13, 2006, 11:33 PM
Will I be able to get a reasonably priced apple laptop with merom, 802.11n, blueray burner, possibly HD, and leopard (or whatever 10.6 is called) in late 2007 or early 2008?

Well you know you'll get merom and leopard by that timeframe. Personally, I believe you'll get 802.11n and a blueray option as well - and with a blueray option should come HD as well.

wmmk
Jul 13, 2006, 11:38 PM
Theres movies on Blu-Ray already.. and you can buy discs to burn too already... I think a BTO option is perfectly reasonable.
there are what, about four movies on BluRay? how much do each cost? If there are barely any players, what's the point of blank media? BTW, don't tell me about storage. if you want storage, get a portable 30 GB HD.I'm not saying I don't think BluRay won't be really cool. it'll just be more reasonable come MWSF time.

Jbook
Jul 13, 2006, 11:39 PM
Maybe if there was more media available in blue-ray format, I would be more excited. Anyways, blue-ray player or not, the Mac Pro is gonna be a beast.

AvSRoCkCO1067
Jul 13, 2006, 11:42 PM
Meh, Apple came out with that Express Card slot for the MacBook Pro kind of early as well...but I'm with most people in arguing that a blue-ray drive won't see the light of day in Apple computers until early 2007.

Platform
Jul 13, 2006, 11:42 PM
So, how long till it comes to laptops? :D

And on top of that, its only going to be a viewer, right? I mean have they created any Blu-ray burners, yet?

I really don't want to buy a Macbook Pro until it has Merom, 802.11n, and blue-ray, cause I know those are all going to be standard in less than a year and I can't afford to have a crippled laptop for 3 yrs.

Hopefully it won't be too far, I've saved enough cash.

Not long, as others have said its for sale for the desktops and I know that HP or someone has put and HD DVD player in a laptop ;)
Edit: Sony is selling VAIO laptops with Blue Ray players !

JesterJJZ
Jul 13, 2006, 11:48 PM
there are what, about four movies on BluRay? how much do each cost? If there are barely any players, what's the point of blank media? BTW, don't tell me about storage. if you want storage, get a portable 30 GB HD.I'm not saying I don't think BluRay won't be really cool. it'll just be more reasonable come MWSF time.

I think there are about 20-30 titles available for both BluRay and HDDVD, though I know I only saw a small selection at Best Buy. They were all priced around $24.99. Perfectly reasonsable and comparable to how the launch of standard DVDs went, though I think those had a higher launch price. I rememver movies debuting at $30 bucks. Players started around $700 i think.

Silentwave
Jul 14, 2006, 12:03 AM
Well you know you'll get merom and leopard by that timeframe. Personally, I believe you'll get 802.11n and a blueray option as well - and with a blueray option should come HD as well.

I'm not so sure that 802.11n will necessarily be out as soon as we think. Everything out so far claiming to be it is Pre-N and the standard is not finalized. Although Intel's Santa Rosa chipset is supposed to include it, the standard did not pass last time around and the next vote as far as I can tell is after the introduction date for the Santa Rosa chipset, which will have the 800mt/s FSB version of Merom (and the new socket). Still, i'm with you on that hope. I would love to see Blu-Ray in my macs. Better still if we could get both BR and HD-DVD as BTO in the towers and pick one for the MBPs.

Of course I am really hoping apple gets behind new technologies as fast as they have in the past, particularly in storage formats and interfaces. (BR, HD-DVD, and other future formats that are emerging that may supplant those both quickly for portable discs, SAS/Sata3g/sataII for HD interfaces.

tk421
Jul 14, 2006, 12:23 AM
Meh, Apple came out with that Express Card slot for the MacBook Pro kind of early as well...but I'm with most people in arguing that a blue-ray drive won't see the light of day in Apple computers until early 2007.

Good point, and this isn't just with Express Card, either. Apple was an early adopter with 802.11b (with the original iBook, I think). They were early to drop the floppy drive, too.

I for one would love a Blu-Ray drive, but I understand that others might not. They should make it a BTO option.

ibook30
Jul 14, 2006, 12:25 AM
I'm not so sure that 802.11n will necessarily be out as soon as we think. .

I agree - sadly. I believe the 802.11n will be slower to market than I would like - but am somewhat excited that Bluray is on it's way. I don't look forward to the format wars, but think bluray is a step towards a much bigger trend in high capacity portable media technology.
As long as tech companies find a way to incorporate these technologies in the market place,,. in other words I think the biggest obstacle to the advances in portable storage media will be tech companies apprehension to adopt technology that makes current offerings or recent offerings obsolete... complicated market but it could be the biggest obstacle to advancement.

Silentwave
Jul 14, 2006, 12:36 AM
I agree - sadly. I believe the 802.11n will be slower to market than I would like - but am somewhat excited that Bluray is on it's way. I don't look forward to the format wars, but think bluray is a step towards a much bigger trend in high capacity portable media technology.
As long as tech companies find a way to incorporate these technologies in the market place,,. in other words I think the biggest obstacle to the advances in portable storage media will be tech companies apprehension to adopt technology that makes current offerings or recent offerings obsolete... complicated market but it could be the biggest obstacle to advancement.

What i'm worried about is if this whole format war between HD-DVD and Blu-ray turns out to be really worthless and end up with neither format winning and instead having both supplanted by further formats. it would be like trying to put betamax up against laserdisc then having DVDs come to market :rolleyes: .

There are great things coming though- future discs, future mass storage too. HDs may be on their way out soon enough for speed reasons. one thing i'm keeping an eye on is ferroelectric memory, which might also make HD-DVD/Bluray etc. partly obsolete as a storage format- useful primarily for video media only.

JFreak
Jul 14, 2006, 12:41 AM
I think is too early for either HDDVD or Blue-Ray

I think Blu-Ray should have been out 3 years ago. There have been HD displays for reasonable price for some time now, but nothing to really use them with. 3 years ago you would probably have been right saying it's too early, but still IMHO it would have been great if Blu-Ray were released together with the G5's.

It's so sad to think that Blu-Ray shouldn't be here now, because it is still rather expensive. Everything is, until they can produce larger volumes. Using this kind of "too early" thinking, we would have nothing ever released. How cool would that be :P

JFreak
Jul 14, 2006, 12:46 AM
Maybe if there was more media available in blue-ray format, I would be more excited.

There will be more media once there are more players, and there will be more players once there is more media. Which goes first? Players, naturally. Apple and the rest of the industry will just have to begin selling the players, and then the content will follow. Very soon I'd guess. The new Blu-Ray media can be sold at premium, so I think there will be a lot of discs to buy once certain threshold of players have been installed.

ibook30
Jul 14, 2006, 12:51 AM
What i'm worried about is if this whole format war between HD-DVD and Blu-ray turns out to be really worthless and end up with neither format winning and instead having both supplanted by further formats. it would be like trying to put betamax up against laserdisc then having DVDs come to market :rolleyes: .

There are great things coming though- future discs, future mass storage too. HDs may be on their way out soon enough for speed reasons. one thing i'm keeping an eye on is ferroelectric memory, which might also make HD-DVD/Bluray etc. partly obsolete as a storage format- useful primarily for video media only.

Excellent points, and concerns. I think the format wars will be mitigated by tech companies desire to make a dollar and the markets inability to handle too many choices and price points vs. value.

It's not impossible that the bluray/ HD DVD conflict will be supplanted by new technology - but it will become a regional issue (Asia vs Europe or N America) and/or price against value issue .. ultimately leaving the consumer with two or three choices.... no matter how fast the technology advances. "The market" is unlikely to handle more than 2 or 3 choices. (I am speaking of the consumer market - a seperate market for the technocracy will allow more choices for niche markets.... I hope)

Let's see what happens- it'll be an interesting ride.

On the 802.11n front- to deviate from the thread again - if Apple and other traditional tech companies do not get behind this - it will leave an opening for telecom/cable companies like Comcast, AT&T, and Verizon - all of whom are delivering faster and faster connection speeds to the (residential)consumer's front door .... Verizon's fiber optic system gives faster download and upload times than previous options, so they are creating a need for faster home networks.
Apple is beginning to compete with telcoms for the communication dollar (iChat AV and ventures into cell phones) - so telcoms might strike back by offering machines or networking cards that work with these advancing high speed internets. I dunno.

p.s. (Silentwave) I am reading about ferroelectric tech - and it is fascinating. Glad you mentioned it!

sisyphus
Jul 14, 2006, 12:55 AM
Well I hope it doesn't come too soon. Blu-ray is just too expensive right now and it would jack up Mac cost significantly. It's also better to see how the Blu-ray vs HD DVD thing works out as well just to make sure Apple doesn't back a dead horse.

1) It would probably by a BTO option at first.

2) With that kind of attitude, the standard you are backing will fail if you wait to see if it will succeed.


MMmmmmmm 200 gig burnable disk...

iMikeT
Jul 14, 2006, 12:57 AM
I'm going to have to give this one a big negative.

The problem with either HD-DVD or Bluray is that neither is a standard in the next generation of DVDs.

I would not want my next Mac to have a Bluray drive and find out several months later that HD-DVD ended up becoming the standard. Which in turn would lead to Bluray not having any support.

This is all Sony's fault.:mad: If they learned anything from the Betamax, they should know that when ever they try to standardize a technology, they fail.

This is way too soon to call.

Silentwave
Jul 14, 2006, 12:59 AM
On the 802.11n front- to deviate from the thread again - if Apple and other traditional tech companies do not get behind this - it will leave an opening for telecom/cable companies like Comcast, AT&T, and Verizon - all of whom are delivering faster and faster connection speeds to the (residential)consumer's front door .... Verizon's fiber optic system gives faster download and upload times than previous options, so they are creating a need for faster home networks.
Apple is beginning to compete with telcoms for the communication dollar (iChat AV and ventures into cell phones) - so telcoms might strike back by offering machines or networking cards that work with these advancing high speed internets. I dunno.

802.11n I could care less about right now. I'm sure wherever I end up at college will go to it eventually, but i'll do most of my stuff wired methinks :p

What we REALLY need is 10-gigabit ethernet standard. Gigabit is now becoming standard among too many companies! apple needs to lead the way into the future!

The high speed interfaces of the future are going to be verrrry nice. I wonder if we'll have infiniband as an option instead of just fibrechannel.

mdntcallr
Jul 14, 2006, 01:09 AM
So, how long till it comes to laptops? :D

And on top of that, its only going to be a viewer, right? I mean have they created any Blu-ray burners, yet?

I really don't want to buy a Macbook Pro until it has Merom, 802.11n, and blue-ray, cause I know those are all going to be standard in less than a year and I can't afford to have a crippled laptop for 3 yrs.

Hopefully it won't be too far, I've saved enough cash.

I am in the same boat. Want All of that, a better graphics chip and the ability to upgrade direct from apple a 160 gb hard drive internal.

I Honestly don't believe it should take too long to include in the mac pro or macbook pro, Sony currently has a tower and a laptop both with Blu-Ray. so lets get both types of devices to get this.

ibook30
Jul 14, 2006, 01:10 AM
I'm going to have to give this one a big negative.

The problem with either HD-DVD or Bluray is that neither is a standard in the next generation of DVDs.
.....
This is all Sony's fault.:mad: If they learned anything from the Betamax, they should know that when ever they try to standardize a technology, they fail.
This is way too soon to call.

Too soon to call is right.

I forgot about Sony's history in this field... :eek: they have some challenges,,,, but the way this plays out in the DVD/ Home Entertainment market is a problem....

Unless.... the DVD/ Home Entertainment market continues to converge with the PC market.. (I know I have used the word "market" too much tonight, my apologies) Perhaps the high cost of bluray DVD players will make a 30 inch iMac with bluray more attractive for the elite who want a cool new TV to play fancy DVDs on, and surf the internets while checking email from the couch. (eventually the rest of us will afford this... just a theory). But there is definitely a couple of trends likely to converge here, and soon - in the next three years , I thinks.

thejadedmonkey
Jul 14, 2006, 01:10 AM
You won't see a blu-ray or HD-DVD burner in a Laptop (erm, notebook) for some time. Why? Simple; the battery would drain before it could burn a full disk.

We'll have to wait for at least 4x burning, probably a lot more though, before we see em in laptops.

and Wireless "N"? psh, I'm still using "B".

PeteyKohut
Jul 14, 2006, 01:22 AM
The only Mac Pro model that will have Blu-Ray will be the top of the line machine, as was the case when DVD-R was first introduced. If you remember, it was the G4 733 Mhz, right before the Quicksilvers came out. People who buy the top of the line machines rarely care abou the cost.

bokdol
Jul 14, 2006, 01:25 AM
dont forget that there are alot of backers of bluray.

Board of Directors include Dell Inc.; Hewlett Packard Company; Hitachi, Ltd.; LG Electronics Inc.; Mitsubishi Electric Corp.; Panasonic (Matsushita Electric); Pioneer Corp.; Royal Philips Electronics; Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.; Sharp Corp.; Sony Corp.; TDK Corp.; Thomson; Twentieth Century Fox; and Walt Disney Pictures and Television

and apple

banjomamo
Jul 14, 2006, 01:26 AM
I think it will be at least 12 more months before bluray shows up in an Apple machine - at least as a standard. The only real hint I have seen is that they already let you author the HD-DVD spec video in DVD SP. Maybe because the Bluray specs werent done in time for that release though.

iAlan
Jul 14, 2006, 01:37 AM
Bluray (or Blu-ray - not sure how to write it yet) will win because it sounds way cooler to say 'Bluray' than 'HD-DVD' :p

And we all know how important a name can be - can you say 'MacBook'? :p :p

swingerofbirch
Jul 14, 2006, 01:54 AM
I don't understand why anyone would complain about Apple not waiting and including as a BTO option. If that's the case it wouldn't affect the price of any machine you want with a standard DVD burner.

To say not to include it because of price would mean we would wait forever for new techology! You could say that Sony shouldn't produce set-top Blu-ray players now because they're too expensive!

We have early adopters to thank for the prices eventually going down! The more are sold, the farther the prices will be able to drop.

The turning point may come even faster with PS3.

I think this transition will happen even faster than with VHS to DVD. The US is full of millionaires and people with enough credit card debt to act like they are. They have plasma HDTVs and are going to want Blu-ray when they hear it's the only way to see 1080p full length movies on those fancy screens.

Bakey
Jul 14, 2006, 02:19 AM
Pioneer has a desktop reader, but it is very expensive (around $1000 USD).

The BDR-101 is actually a writer as well as a reader, and to be fair at $1000 [or rather around 650.00 over this side of the pond] it's pretty well priced when considering the cost of the first batch of DVD writers, eg. the Pioneer DVR-S201 authoring drive that retailed at a whacking cost of 12,000! General media writers were by definition significantly cheaper, but I recall purchasing our first DVD-R writer at a cost of around 350.00, with DVD-R5 blank media at around 15.00 a pop - so the economies of scale, etc., IMO makes BD at a pretty good starting point.

As for the Sony BD story I feel a lot of people are indeed watching how well the PS3 takes off to then try and validate the outcome and success of BD. But as you rightly said it's historic and as with the PS2 being such a huge success story which then solidified the consumer need for DVD as a new medium; certainly in Japan the green lights shone very brightly for DVD as a consequence of the PS2 success story!

But all in all personally speaking I hope BD wins; from a technical viewpoint it's able to offer a lot of new and quite exciting features that aren't possible on HD-DVD. And I know my next statement is probably going to cause controversy but HD-DVD is [in simple terms] simply a DVD-Video, but with larger capacity! I know that's generalising A LOT!!

Yes, HD-DVD requires a lot less re-tooling for replication houses, which in turn means it's cheaper to bring to market BUT BD has a lot to offer and I hope and prey it's given a chance!

Anyway, here's to hoping... ;)

dextertangocci
Jul 14, 2006, 02:20 AM
HD-DVD all the way.

Why? It has worse specs than Blu-ray...

dguisinger
Jul 14, 2006, 02:27 AM
I personally would love to see both formats fall flat on their asses. Both sides are way too stubborn to standardize and are expecting consumers to waste money on one side or the other, just to have their super-expensive players become paperweights when a standard is picked.

Not to mention, the DRM is so restrictive its not even funny. Especially on Blueray. It is rediculous that if you use an analog connection or a non-secured digital connection that blueray down-samples and then up-samples the video to distort it so you cannot somehow make a digital copy. Thats not how the professional pirates duplicate discs! Morons, all they are doing is once again hurting consumers. Blueray players even phone home to tell Sony what you've been watching and download new encryption keys incase someone broke the keys like they did with CSS. Sony has assumed way too much control with Blueray, so if I'd have to pick either format I'd go with HD-DVD. Lets not forget Microsoft is backing HD-DVD on the X-Box 360. Last week when I was at the game store, they said the add-on drive would be coming soon for around $100. Thats alot less than a blueray player. Heck, when combined with this fall's xbox price cuts (we all know its going to happen with the ps3 release), it will be significantly less than buying a PS3 for a blueray player.

We've seen it with Betamax, MiniDisc, MemoryStick, etc. Sony doesn't play well with others, they like their own formats. Heck, take a look at the Sony DRM fiasco from last year with the rootkit CDs. Do you really trust Sony to be checking in on what Blueray discs you are playing and verifying your encryption keys on a dailybasis? There are very few features in Blueray which are consumer friendly.

Like I said, HD-DVD and Blueray both suck in my opinion, too many DRM controls, too expensive, not enough difference really over DVD for most people....

So.......back to the main topic, what do I want Apple to do?
Nothing, don't include either. I knew someone who felt very betrayed when he purchased a PowerMac with DVD-RAM drive. He was convinced because Apple chose that drive that it was where the industry was headed. A year later he could barely find media for it and he couldn't use the discs on anyone elses machines. He actually has always been a pro-mac person, preaching to everyone, but that absolutely infuriated him.

Until there is a standard, Apple should stay out of the way. It doesn't matter if they put it in the highend mac or not, people say people spending that much don't care.........thats not true. They do care, they usually spend that much extra to get a job done with extra features they need. Compatibility and future proofing is a BIG DEAL to these people.

So......apple should not put Blueray in anytime soon. BTO option? MAYBE....BUT......they should put lengthy and wordy warnings when selected informing users that it may be a paperweight in a year.

mozmac
Jul 14, 2006, 02:43 AM
Apple is frequently the first to incorporate new technologies. USB, ditching the floppy drive, airport wireless networking, firewire. I remember when I had my iBook on campus back in 2002. I was one of the ONLY people that had wireless. A few buildings offered it, and I didn't see many other people sitting around on their laptops, unless they had an illuminated Apple shining on their lap.:)

I wouldn't be surprised if Apple was one of the first to use Blu-Ray, especially seeing they are a contributing company. They have a tendency to take new technologies and make them mainstream. They did it with the Apple II, the original Mac, and they continue to do it today.

TangoCharlie
Jul 14, 2006, 02:52 AM
imagine the data you could put onto those disks though!
... and what you'd loose when the disk goes bad :mad:

Silentwave
Jul 14, 2006, 02:55 AM
The BDR-101 is actually a writer as well as a reader, and to be fair at $1000 [or rather around 650.00 over this side of the pond] it's pretty well priced when considering the cost of the first batch of DVD writers, eg. the Pioneer DVR-S201 authoring drive that retailed at a whacking cost of 12,000! General media writers were by definition significantly cheaper, but I recall purchasing our first DVD-R writer at a cost of around 350.00, with DVD-R5 blank media at around 15.00 a pop - so the economies of scale, etc., IMO makes BD at a pretty good starting point.

As for the Sony BD story I feel a lot of people are indeed watching how well the PS3 takes off to then try and validate the outcome and success of BD. But as you rightly said it's historic and as with the PS2 being such a huge success story which then solidified the consumer need for DVD as a new medium; certainly in Japan the green lights shone very brightly for DVD as a consequence of the PS2 success story!

But all in all personally speaking I hope BD wins; from a technical viewpoint it's able to offer a lot of new and quite exciting features that aren't possible on HD-DVD. And I know my next statement is probably going to cause controversy but HD-DVD is [in simple terms] simply a DVD-Video, but with larger capacity! I know that's generalising A LOT!!

Yes, HD-DVD requires a lot less re-tooling for replication houses, which in turn means it's cheaper to bring to market BUT BD has a lot to offer and I hope and prey it's given a chance!

Anyway, here's to hoping... ;)

While im all for BR, I don't think the PS3 will be the #1 promoter for it, and I don't thnk the PS2 did all that much. For a few weeks maybe it was my only DVD player when another broke or when we moved one into another room to make way for a new one that hadn't arrived- but really it is limited- not necessarily going to be the best quality BR player, and to be honest, people will buy it because it's a game console. I think that in the future it will be multipurpose devices yet again, yes, but of a different sort. I'm now on my 2nd DVD burner TiVo and I wouldn't trade it for the world. I've burned over 60 DVDs worth so far. If someone makes one Blu-Ray, i'll be all over it as soon as I can afford it. And who knows, the tech savvy may head more for media center computers to drive their home theaters?
So while I think that devices with multiple funcitons will have an effect here, I don't think the PS3 will drive BR to domination on its own.

Silentwave
Jul 14, 2006, 02:57 AM
... and what you'd loose when the disk goes bad :mad:

so just burn two :)

or just wait until ferroelectric memory comes out- imagine having the equivalent of a few 500GB external HDs in a device the size of a small thumb drive, solid state but without any heads to crash- the capacity of huge HDs, the reliability and ability to maintain data without power of flash memory, and access speed like RAM.

TangoCharlie
Jul 14, 2006, 03:04 AM
I reckon these analyists get thier "information" by reading ThinkSecret and extrapolat even further!

Let's just see when the Mac Pro comes out! Heck, the "analysts" can't even agree which CPU the damn thing(s) are going to have!

(Pssst, Shhh.. don't tell anyone.... it's going to be Intel Xeon 5100 series a.k.a Woodcrest. Shhh. Don't tell anyone I said so!!)


ASIDE:
I used to do lots of work doing image analysis, and I wrote an application imaginitively called "Analysis". In Windows, when I had lots of versions of "Analysis" running, the names on the buttons on my task bar would get truncated. It made several people take a double-take when they saw all these buttons labeled Anal Anal Anal Anal Anal Anal Anal!!

Why did I mention that? Oh, yes, there's a reason they're called Analysts! :D

noservice2001
Jul 14, 2006, 03:06 AM
this is sweet!

bigandy
Jul 14, 2006, 03:10 AM
a BTO option would be great.

i'd pop one in if i could afford it- it would be damn useful considering the amount of data i need to archive making films... :rolleyes:

Marx55
Jul 14, 2006, 03:28 AM
Cheaper Blu-ray next month: "BenQ to launch Blu-ray Disc writer in August"

http://www.macworld.com/news/2006/07/05/benq/index.php

Blu-ray is awesome for backups as well as HDTV and HD movies in general. You can also have much more content on a Blu-ray than on a HD-DVD disk.

So, should Blu-ray drop prices more to match HD-DVD as seems the trend, the election is clear: Blu-ray for ever!

Apple: go for it with the option ot two-drive BTO Macs. We need them.

sam10685
Jul 14, 2006, 03:34 AM
So, how long till it comes to laptops? :D

And on top of that, its only going to be a viewer, right? I mean have they created any Blu-ray burners, yet?

I really don't want to buy a Macbook Pro until it has Merom, 802.11n, and blue-ray, cause I know those are all going to be standard in less than a year and I can't afford to have a crippled laptop for 3 yrs.

Hopefully it won't be too far, I've saved enough cash.

ur goin' to be waitin' a while... just get one now.

Silentwave
Jul 14, 2006, 03:39 AM
ur goin' to be waitin' a while... just get one now.

no way! everyone knows that 802.11n and bluray AND HD-DVD 16x 6-layer burners will be in the powerbook g5s next tuesday!

I do think it will be a while though, probably better off getting one in September after Merom is out and just calling it a day.

JFreak
Jul 14, 2006, 03:41 AM
Wireless "N"? psh, I'm still using "B".

It would be nice - in theory - to have a hyper-fast wireless connection; however, what does it matter if my outside line stays at 2M/512k speed? The B-spec is perfectly fine for quite some time.

bokdol
Jul 14, 2006, 04:10 AM
... and what you'd loose when the disk goes bad :mad:


but you can say that with most drives....

mozmac
Jul 14, 2006, 04:17 AM
ASIDE:
I used to do lots of work doing image analysis, and I wrote an application imaginitively called "Analysis". In Windows, when I had lots of versions of "Analysis" running, the names on the buttons on my task bar would get truncated. It made several people take a double-take when they saw all these buttons labeled Anal Anal Anal Anal Anal Anal Anal!!

Why did I mention that? Oh, yes, there's a reason they're called Analysts! :D

I appreciate your added humor. Thank you.

lord_flash
Jul 14, 2006, 05:23 AM
Sony has assumed way too much control with Blueray, so if I'd have to pick either format I'd go with HD-DVD. Lets not forget Microsoft is backing HD-DVD on the X-Box 360. Last week when I was at the game store, they said the add-on drive would be coming soon for around $100. Thats alot less than a blueray player.

And how often have consoled that come in two parts been successful? Sega MegaCD, anyone (Genesis CD)? Developers won't be able to use the HD-DVD drive because they reduce their potential market, so it's just a player. Why not buy a decent stand alone (as soon as there are any - the Toshiba was slated in reviews).

Like I said, HD-DVD and Blueray both suck in my opinion, too many DRM controls, too expensive, not enough difference really over DVD for most people....

That's content owners for you - they'll always demand that. It doesn't mean you can't burn your own disc without rights management - backing up photos etc to 50Gb wouldn't be too bad. A lot easier than changing DVDs 6-12 times.

Given the drives are out there and Apple are supporting the format, there is no reason not to make the option available. In fact given Apple's customer base outside the rabid geek community, Blu-ray creation capabilities would seem the way to go (Blu-Ray Studio Pro?). At 650/$1000 it isn't even that high a percentage of the overall price of a higher spec machine. Macs aren't cheap.

Evangelion
Jul 14, 2006, 05:33 AM
There will be more media once there are more players, and there will be more players once there is more media. Which goes first? Players, naturally. Apple and the rest of the industry will just have to begin selling the players, and then the content will follow. Very soon I'd guess. The new Blu-Ray media can be sold at premium, so I think there will be a lot of discs to buy once certain threshold of players have been installed.

Well, PS3 will have Blu-Ray in it. And if PS3 is even moderately succesfull, it would mean lots of Blu-Ray-players in the market.

Evangelion
Jul 14, 2006, 05:34 AM
This is all Sony's fault.:mad: If they learned anything from the Betamax, they should know that when ever they try to standardize a technology, they fail.

You mean like when they standardised on CD's?

Evangelion
Jul 14, 2006, 05:37 AM
It would be nice - in theory - to have a hyper-fast wireless connection; however, what does it matter if my outside line stays at 2M/512k speed?

Because those speeds go up? And because you are not always accessing the outside?

Cobrien
Jul 14, 2006, 06:11 AM
For a start HD-DVD players can play in 1080p, its just the xbox360 that cant. Th HD-DVD player which comes out for it may be able to, I dont know yet.

Secondly, its not whether it has a blu-ray drive alone, if it did then there is no point buying it, just buy an extra hard drive. It has to have an HDMI connection so that it will also work as a blu-ray player in your HDtv.

I have both an xbox 360 (and I will get the HD-DVD player for a steal I might add) and a Sony Vaio AR with blu-ray hooked up to my HDtv. Yes it is expensive, but when you see the quality its definitely worth it.

I am going to steer clear of the Playstation3. The ps2 and psp just didnt impress me enough, although it will win the console wars simply because its a PlayStation. When you think about it, it has never really had the best console, N64 was better and would have won the first war had it not been on cartlidge and the xbox was better because of the online play, the ps2 was shocking online.

andiwm2003
Jul 14, 2006, 06:20 AM
i hope blu-ray stays optional. a superdrive is good enough for me. blu ray at the current time is a waste of money for me.

Sabenth
Jul 14, 2006, 06:22 AM
I have both an xbox 360 (and I will get the HD-DVD player for a steal I might add) and a Sony Vaio AR with blu-ray hooked up to my HDtv. Yes it is expensive, but when you see the quality its definitely worth it.

I am going to steer clear of the Playstation3. The ps2 and psp just didnt impress me enough, although it will win the console wars simply because its a PlayStation. When you think about it, it has never really had the best console, N64 was better and would have won the first war had it not been on cartlidge and the xbox was better because of the online play, the ps2 was shocking online.


The winner will be nintendo if they get it all done in time the ds has wiped the floor with the psp here in europe .. As for all this blue ray bussines i like the idea of it but not as a main feature of any computer system not just apple ... i am still getting my head around dvd rw -/ what ever format ... Blue ray will just cause more chaos to the public plus at the current prices they can sod off...

Cobrien
Jul 14, 2006, 06:29 AM
The winner will be nintendo if they get it all done in time the ds has wiped the floor with the psp here in europe .. As for all this blue ray bussines i like the idea of it but not as a main feature of any computer system not just apple ... i am still getting my head around dvd rw -/ what ever format ... Blue ray will just cause more chaos to the public plus at the current prices they can sod off...


I hope the ninitendo will win as it means that for once he innovative ideas will win rather than the companies who try to make it look better and more powerful. It would be wonderfully refreshing. I'm from Scotland by the way an I knwo about four people with a ds and everyone has a psp. Its a shame beause it may not look as good people immediately think its worse.

ezekielrage_99
Jul 14, 2006, 06:55 AM
If Apple introduces Blu Ray products will it be standard high end (Mac Pro, MacBook Pro) or BTO?

JFreak
Jul 14, 2006, 07:15 AM
Because those speeds go up? And because you are not always accessing the outside?

It'll take a while before B-spec becomes too slow for web surfing ;)

Evangelion
Jul 14, 2006, 07:26 AM
It'll take a while before B-spec becomes too slow for web surfing ;)

But there are lots of people who use the wireless for more than just web-surfing. Hell, WLAN is used at my workplace quite extensively in place of wired ethernet. That was the whole point of my comment. I (among others) use network-connectivity (wired or otherwise) for other things besides web-surfing

As to just web-surfing.... In the time of few years my internet-connection has moved from 512KB to 8MB. I could go to 12 or 24MB right now. The speed-increase has been FAST.

hvfsl
Jul 14, 2006, 07:42 AM
I would like to point out a few things:
-Of course BluRay burners will be optional in Macs (until they cost around the same as DVD writers cost now)
-A BluRay writer will allow people to record movies on their HD camera (Sony and co already have a few pro-sumer models out) and then burn them in HD to BD-R using upcoming versions of iDVD and DVDstudio.
-You will be able to watch HD movies on your Mac.

Also I personally want BluRay to win over HD-DVD because it will mean that we won't need another new format for many years to come. BluRay has plans for 200GB disks.

HD-DVD may be fine for current HD movies, but what happens when we move to even higher resolutions and to 3D (Lucas and Jackson both have plans to release their movies in 3D).

JFreak
Jul 14, 2006, 07:43 AM
As to just web-surfing.... In the time of few years my internet-connection has moved from 512KB to 8MB. I could go to 12 or 24MB right now. The speed-increase has been FAST.

I bet your uplink is still 512k and you could perhaps upgrade to 1M, but that's it. Not very fast compared to B-spec ;) I would value a symmetric 2M/2M line more than asymmetric 12M/1M, but maybe that's just me.

Evangelion
Jul 14, 2006, 07:50 AM
I bet your uplink is still 512k and you could perhaps upgrade to 1M, but that's it. Not very fast compared to B-spec ;) I would value a symmetric 2M/2M line more than asymmetric 12M/1M, but maybe that's just me.

my uplink is 1MB, and I could move to 3MB if I wanted to. But the point is/was that the speeds are going up fast, and there are other uses for WLAN than mere web-surfing.

Multimedia
Jul 14, 2006, 07:59 AM
Well I hope it doesn't come too soon. Blu-ray is just too expensive right now and it would jack up Mac cost significantly. It's also better to see how the Blu-ray vs HD DVD thing works out as well just to make sure Apple doesn't back a dead horse.I agree. I would be surprised if Apple even offers it before next year. Blu-Ray DVRs are still about $1k and the blank media is also very expensive. Apple will have enough challenges keeping the Intel Quad under $4k without including Blu-Ray yet. But by this time next year, I would expect it to be a BTO option for the desktops at least.

Meanwhile, anyone who wants it can buy an external burner or make one with a FW case. But I don't think even Toast 7 supports Blu-Ray yet. So even HOW we would burn Blu-Ray media is an open question at this point.

Evangelion
Jul 14, 2006, 08:13 AM
I agree. I would be surprised if Apple even offers it before next year. Blu-Ray DVRs are still about $1k and the blank media is also very expensive. Apple will have enough challenges keeping the Intel Quad under $4k without including Blu-Ray yet. But by this time next year, I would expect it to be a BTO option for the desktops at least.

Currently, prices of Xeons seem to hover between $500 and $1000. And note: these are RETAIL PRICES for consumers! Apple's prices for those CPU's would be considerably less. So I don't see Apple having any problems offering quad-Woodcrest for under $4000. I wouldn't be one bit surprised if we saw quad-Woodcrest for under $3000!

asphalt-proof
Jul 14, 2006, 08:21 AM
What i'm worried about is if this whole format war between HD-DVD and Blu-ray turns out to be really worthless and end up with neither format winning and instead having both supplanted by further formats. it would be like trying to put betamax up against laserdisc then having DVDs come to market :rolleyes: .

There are great things coming though- future discs, future mass storage too. HDs may be on their way out soon enough for speed reasons. one thing i'm keeping an eye on is ferroelectric memory, which might also make HD-DVD/Bluray etc. partly obsolete as a storage format- useful primarily for video media only.


I read recently (from an internet sent to me by the tube) that disc-based formats are on their way out.

TerryJ
Jul 14, 2006, 08:25 AM
As purely a data storage format, obviously Blu-ray has the potential to store more data than HD DVD.

However, as someone who has been following the whole BD vs. HD DVD consumer video format war, and as someone who has bought an HD DVD player (and, until recently, had a BD video player on order), at this (albeit early) stage of the game, HD DVD is the superior video format.

HD DVD has 30gb dual layer discs available (almost all the latest video releases on HD DVD are 30gb dual layer.) There are many more titles available for HD DVD right now (probably because it's been out longer and the discs themselves are easier to manufacture.) HD DVD uses a more efficient codec (Microsoft's VC-1, which is akin to H.264, in that it's much much more efficient than MPEG-2.) HD DVD titles have either Dolby Digital Plus (a higher bit-rate multichannel audio codec) and Dolby TruHD (a lossless multichannel audio codec).

BD only has 25gb single layer discs available now. Apparently the 50gb dual layer discs are hard to manufacture and the yields are not ready for prime time. No BD retail video discs are above 25gb single layer. No timetable for 50gb discs has been announced. The video is MPEG-2, meaning it takes up more space on the disc. And, the most recent BD releases all suffer from more MPEG artifacts than any HD DVD releases. BD audio is either standard Dolby Digital or space consuming uncompressed PCM audio (which sucks up even more disc space, leaving even less for video.)

The current Samsung BD player actually has the same (Broadcom) chip that the current Toshiba HD DVD player has in terms of outputing video... and it only outputs 1080i. The Samsung player tacks on another (Faroudja) chip to deinterlace it, so it outputs 1080p (so BD can say "we output 1080p!"), except, that chip apparently stinks and makes the picture somewhat soft. In reality, any HDTV worth its salt can easily deinterlace 1080i signals, so the whole "we output 1080p" is a false advantage anyway. Both BD and HD DVD discs store the video as 1080p, by the way.

So, what you have, on the video front, BD has a smaller capacity disk with less efficient video and audio codecs (that look and sound worse). And it is TWICE the price ($500 vs. $1000). And has less titles. And is late.

If you read any reports on BD video quality vs. HD DVD video quality on boards like AVSforum.com, HD DVD beats BD hands down.

Who knows how this video format war will shake out, but Blu-ray is way behind right now.

-Terry

thejadedmonkey
Jul 14, 2006, 08:44 AM
I read recently (from an internet sent to me by the tube) that disc-based formats are on their way out.
I hope so! They're such a pain, and scratch too easily.

Multimedia
Jul 14, 2006, 08:51 AM
Currently, prices of Xeons seem to hover between $500 and $1000. And note: these are RETAIL PRICES for consumers! Apple's prices for those CPU's would be considerably less. So I don't see Apple having any problems offering quad-Woodcrest for under $4000. I wouldn't be one bit surprised if we saw quad-Woodcrest for under $3000!Gee I hope you're right. Quad MacIntels For Under $3k Would Be A Miracle. Thanks for the heads up. :rolleyes:

Dagless
Jul 14, 2006, 09:06 AM
Yeah! Since this guy doesn't want it, neither do the rest of us!

I don't want it either. does that stop you from wanting it? no. Would I buy a Mac with a BluRay burner as standard with a bumped up cost? no. would I buy a Mac if it had BluRay AND HD-DVD burner with no obvious price bump? yes.

I'm not being tied down to BluRay. I'm not prepared to spend a Mac Pro amount of money on a format that isn't the standard. It's not good business to force us into it like that, I'd rather have HD-DVD burner. What with their lower costs and all.

Will_reed
Jul 14, 2006, 09:11 AM
I don't care if it's only a BTO option but having this would be awsome.
Could be a great way to view your 1080p blu-ray movies especially on the cinema display. Or you could burn your 1080p trailers directly off apple.com/trailers and watch them on your hd-dvd player. And what about home movies
How many consumer HD video editors come with computers a blu-ray option would be a really cool adition to idvd.

xterm
Jul 14, 2006, 09:21 AM
As purely a data storage format, obviously Blu-ray has the potential to store more data than HD DVD.

However, as someone who has been following the whole BD vs. HD DVD consumer video format war, and as someone who has bought an HD DVD player (and, until recently, had a BD video player on order), at this (albeit early) stage of the game, HD DVD is the superior video format.

HD DVD has 30gb dual layer discs available (almost all the latest video releases on HD DVD are 30gb dual layer.) There are many more titles available for HD DVD right now (probably because it's been out longer and the discs themselves are easier to manufacture.) HD DVD uses a more efficient codec (Microsoft's VC-1, which is akin to H.264, in that it's much much more efficient than MPEG-2.) HD DVD titles have either Dolby Digital Plus (a higher bit-rate multichannel audio codec) and Dolby TruHD (a lossless multichannel audio codec).

BD only has 25gb single layer discs available now. Apparently the 50gb dual layer discs are hard to manufacture and the yields are not ready for prime time. No BD retail video discs are above 25gb single layer. No timetable for 50gb discs has been announced. The video is MPEG-2, meaning it takes up more space on the disc. And, the most recent BD releases all suffer from more MPEG artifacts than any HD DVD releases. BD audio is either standard Dolby Digital or space consuming uncompressed PCM audio (which sucks up even more disc space, leaving even less for video.)

The current Samsung BD player actually has the same (Broadcom) chip that the current Toshiba HD DVD player has in terms of outputing video... and it only outputs 1080i. The Samsung player tacks on another (Faroudja) chip to deinterlace it, so it outputs 1080p (so BD can say "we output 1080p!"), except, that chip apparently stinks and makes the picture somewhat soft. In reality, any HDTV worth its salt can easily deinterlace 1080i signals, so the whole "we output 1080p" is a false advantage anyway. Both BD and HD DVD discs store the video as 1080p, by the way.

So, what you have, on the video front, BD has a smaller capacity disk with less efficient video and audio codecs (that look and sound worse). And it is TWICE the price ($500 vs. $1000). And has less titles. And is late.

If you read any reports on BD video quality vs. HD DVD video quality on boards like AVSforum.com, HD DVD beats BD hands down.

Who knows how this video format war will shake out, but Blu-ray is way behind right now.

-Terry

Good post, sums up the current situation very nicely.

Given that dual layer 50GB blu-ray discs cant even be produced yet, i think the 200GB claim is complete vaporware.

I hope HD-DVD wins this war soon, as it is out of the gates first, and thus far a far superior format. If Blu-Ray were to give up now, i dont think many people would be sad. One format is better for everyone.

whoooaaahhhh
Jul 14, 2006, 09:54 AM
Good post, sums up the current situation very nicely.

Given that dual layer 50GB blu-ray discs cant even be produced yet, i think the 200GB claim is complete vaporware.

I hope HD-DVD wins this war soon, as it is out of the gates first, and thus far a far superior format. If Blu-Ray were to give up now, i dont think many people would be sad. One format is better for everyone.



NO.



First of all, Blu-Ray discs are a completely new material and fabrication process, so highlighting the fact that they've only made 25GB discs (which were stable-ly created long before almost ANY HD-DVD's) and can't produce a disk which is far above the specs of the competition, is like saying screw the russians cuz they're space program hasn't sent a man to mars (nobody's done it yet, anyway). You can't blame Blu-Ray for not being able to deliver 50 GB yet, the meat of the war is just beginning anyway.

Secondly, what was said about the VC-1 codec is very wrong. Microsoft's VC-1 codec is far worse and more difficult to work with than MPEG 2 or MPEG 4 that sony will probably offer in later versions of Blu-Ray. All this malarky about artifacts doesn't really make sense when you consider that we've been USING MPEG2 IN DVD'S FOR YEARS NOW! There's no way that the algorithim could be to blame for the artifacts! Sure it's fatter, but it's a lighter compression, and as Sony has shown with their PCM Audio on Blu-Ray, sometimes light compression on a bigger disk is better than heavy compression on smaller disks. It will be a lot easier to change to a more efficient codec down the line (which is what we've done with computers time and time again, as well as professional video) so we can get Ultra HD on Blu Ray when it comes out as well.

I'm sorry, I understand people really want HD-DVD to win because it's easier and cheaper right now, but since when has the easiest option been the best? If Blu-Ray doesn't win this war we'll have another short life-span format, this version of HD will not be enough for the professional industry much longer, take it from a video guy. I've written a frickin' paper on this very subject.

IMHO I'd like to see a Blu-Ray with the Mac Pro's to help solidify the consumer base into purchasing a better product, because that's how you standardize something in the market...sales...But I don't know that it will happen. Although remember DVD-RAM? Apple seemed to like that for awhile...that died...



I also don't want microsoft handling my video codec, anybody remember the wonderous creation of WMV/WMA? The one that like none of us can use on macs? HD-DVD's codec is a derivation of the WMV-HD codec. Welcome to the Microsoft reality. They really like controlling proprietary codecs. Also...MPEG was created by a group of companies and people working together, Microsoft created WMV, so they've got almost complete say in how that plays out.

fishkorp
Jul 14, 2006, 10:10 AM
I also don't want microsoft handling my video codec, anybody remember the wonderous creation of WMV/WMA? The one that like none of us can use on macs? HD-DVD's codec is a derivation of the WMV-HD codec. Welcome to the Microsoft reality. They really like controlling proprietary codecs. Also...MPEG was created by a group of companies and people working together, Microsoft created WMV, so they've got almost complete say in how that plays out.
MS is using the ATI H.264 codec for HD content on the XBox 360 HD-DVD drive, so they're not using their own crazy codecs.

ATI Technologies today announced that Microsoft Corp. has chosen ATI's H.264 decoder for the Xbox 360 HD DVD player, bringing users sharper, more true-to-life visuals and smoother playback of high-definition content. HD DVDs encoded using one of three approved codecs deliver up to six times the resolution of traditional DVDs all on a single disc. Built on ATI's Avivo technology, the decoder used for the Xbox 360 HD DVD player brings to bear ATI's considerable multimedia know-how to ensure gamers, home theatre buffs, and casual viewers alike get a more perfect picture from the H.264 format.

"The Xbox 360 gives consumers access to a world of high-definition games and video content through Xbox Live Marketplace. With the new Xbox 360 HD DVD player using ATI's decoder technology, we're giving consumers the choice to playback the latest in high-definition movies," said Todd Holmdahl, corporate vice president of Xbox 360 hardware development. "HD DVD brings new meaning to the term home theater. When people see the visual clarity and realism that Microsoft and ATI are delivering through the Xbox 360 this holiday, they will be blown away."

To enable the smoothest H.264 video playback possible, the ATI decoder technology makes use of the Xbox 360's graphics processing unit (GPU) to accelerate video processing. The unified shader design of the GPU enables high-end processing techniques such as comb filtering and automatic gain control to ensure that video artifacts such as blockiness or color bands don't disrupt playback.

"With the Xbox 360 HD DVD player, Microsoft and ATI are pushing the boundaries of high-definition multimedia content," said Rick Bergman, senior vice president and general manager, PC Business Unit, ATI. "The decoder technology used in the new drive provides high fidelity visuals unlike anything ever seen before. This is another example of the close cooperation between our two companies, and the commitment we both share to delivering the most immersive experience possible for audiences around the world."

Chef Medeski
Jul 14, 2006, 10:13 AM
ur goin' to be waitin' a while... just get one now.
I have a top spec Powerbook 12". It was my first mac and it will hold me over. I want a Intel Mac just for Parallels and stuff, so I'm not stuck in college going to the lab for that one application. Yet, I'm not about to put down $2,000 for a computer, whose only new technology is a Intel chip that is about to be replaced and a Gigabit ethernet (its nice but....). I mean it doesn't even ahve FW800 anymore.

You see if I'm going to buy a very expensive laptop, I want it to last. When I bought this PB, it wasn't at the edge, I mean most of the technology had been around awhile, but I know there wasn't new coming out for years, not the case this time around. And I have the time to wait... I mean this computer is still under warranty, works fine, and does all my tasks at I speed I enjoy.

iMikeT
Jul 14, 2006, 10:16 AM
You mean like when they standardised on CD's?


From what I recall, Philips began working on the compact disk project and Sony later on joined them in that venture.

Also, CDs were not easily accepted as a standard. It did take some time before everyone else adapted.

I must also point out that if you want to take the compact disk standard as an example of standardization, that CDs were the only format in its class. That is, there was no other competition for a standard format. Which brings us to today. Like the Betamax and VHS, we are seeing two formats of next generation's storage medium competing to become a standard.

Just keep in mind Sony's hit/miss ratio for standardization.;)

Chef Medeski
Jul 14, 2006, 10:17 AM
It would be nice - in theory - to have a hyper-fast wireless connection; however, what does it matter if my outside line stays at 2M/512k speed? The B-spec is perfectly fine for quite some time.
Personally the only thing the speed helps is within a network. You see I have a mac server (old G4 B&W) that holds all my music and photos to be broadcasted over the connection. If I want to transfer some songs or photos to e-mail, well it helps to have the extra speed. But your right thats really minimally helping...

the big help would be range. I mean G was supposed to make covering a whole house no problem, but guess what I reguarly spot out a floor below and to the left. I'm about to install two extenders, so I actually get service throughout the house :rolleyes: .... hopefully with n, I wouldn't have to wry about that.

zwilliams07
Jul 14, 2006, 10:23 AM
Faster processors, I'll take those of course. Blu-Ray? Hell no, I don't want that turd. Pretty much every format Sony has ever come up with is dead, just look at the UMD now, its a joke.

I'll pass on that MPAA sponsored DRM ladden expensive dog turd.

poppe
Jul 14, 2006, 10:24 AM
As purely a data storage format, obviously Blu-ray has the potential to store more data than HD DVD.

However, as someone who has been following the whole BD vs. HD DVD consumer video format war, and as someone who has bought an HD DVD player (and, until recently, had a BD video player on order), at this (albeit early) stage of the game, HD DVD is the superior video format.

HD DVD has 30gb dual layer discs available (almost all the latest video releases on HD DVD are 30gb dual layer.) There are many more titles available for HD DVD right now (probably because it's been out longer and the discs themselves are easier to manufacture.) HD DVD uses a more efficient codec (Microsoft's VC-1, which is akin to H.264, in that it's much much more efficient than MPEG-2.) HD DVD titles have either Dolby Digital Plus (a higher bit-rate multichannel audio codec) and Dolby TruHD (a lossless multichannel audio codec).

BD only has 25gb single layer discs available now. Apparently the 50gb dual layer discs are hard to manufacture and the yields are not ready for prime time. No BD retail video discs are above 25gb single layer. No timetable for 50gb discs has been announced. The video is MPEG-2, meaning it takes up more space on the disc. And, the most recent BD releases all suffer from more MPEG artifacts than any HD DVD releases. BD audio is either standard Dolby Digital or space consuming uncompressed PCM audio (which sucks up even more disc space, leaving even less for video.)

The current Samsung BD player actually has the same (Broadcom) chip that the current Toshiba HD DVD player has in terms of outputing video... and it only outputs 1080i. The Samsung player tacks on another (Faroudja) chip to deinterlace it, so it outputs 1080p (so BD can say "we output 1080p!"), except, that chip apparently stinks and makes the picture somewhat soft. In reality, any HDTV worth its salt can easily deinterlace 1080i signals, so the whole "we output 1080p" is a false advantage anyway. Both BD and HD DVD discs store the video as 1080p, by the way.

So, what you have, on the video front, BD has a smaller capacity disk with less efficient video and audio codecs (that look and sound worse). And it is TWICE the price ($500 vs. $1000). And has less titles. And is late.

If you read any reports on BD video quality vs. HD DVD video quality on boards like AVSforum.com, HD DVD beats BD hands down.

Who knows how this video format war will shake out, but Blu-ray is way behind right now.

-Terry


Another point to add is... Recently the Blue Ray eye has become in shortage as said on G4 Attack of the Show. All this talk about prices going down? How can price go down if their is a shortage... If I remember economics correctly shortages don't help decrease price...
_________________________________________________________________



I just dont trust Sony... I get realy nervous when I think about Sony crap...
Especially with the whole DRM CD they did last year...

TerryJ
Jul 14, 2006, 10:28 AM
First of all, Blu-Ray discs are a completely new material and fabrication process, so highlighting the fact that they've only made 25GB discs (which were stable-ly created long before almost ANY HD-DVD's) and can't produce a disk which is far above the specs of the competition, is like saying screw the russians cuz they're space program hasn't sent a man to mars (nobody's done it yet, anyway). You can't blame Blu-Ray for not being able to deliver 50 GB yet, the meat of the war is just beginning anyway.
It is true that we don't know what will be delivered in the future. I am sure 50gb+ discs will be available at some point. How soon, however, is important, especially considering there is a format war. If Blu-ray can get those discs out fast with good yields, then obviously that changes things. But reports are they are not at this point, with no timetable on when they might. Add to this the fact that it is a new fabrication process... this can only mean that prices most likely will stay higher longer, as opposed to a cheaper/easier fab process for HD DVDs.

Secondly, what was said about the VC-1 codec is very wrong. Microsoft's VC-1 codec is far worse and more difficult to work with than MPEG 2 or MPEG 4 that sony will probably offer in later versions of Blu-Ray. All this malarky about artifacts doesn't really make sense when you consider that we've been USING MPEG2 IN DVD'S FOR YEARS NOW! There's no way that the algorithim could be to blame for the artifacts! Sure it's fatter, but it's a lighter compression, and as Sony has shown with their PCM Audio on Blu-Ray, sometimes light compression on a bigger disk is better than heavy compression on smaller disks. It will be a lot easier to change to a more efficient codec down the line (which is what we've done with computers time and time again, as well as professional video) so we can get Ultra HD on Blu Ray when it comes out as well.
Watch HD DVD content on a Toshiba HD DVD player vs. BD content on a Samsung BD player... HD DVD content (using VC-1) is consistantly better than BD content (using MPEG2). Not sure what is wrong with the BD stuff exactly, but something is going wrong. And if it's MPEG2 issues, then all those BD discs out now are just stuck being crap. They'd have to reencode and rerelease new versions of the same movies later. That does not help the BD cause.

Remember, HD is over 4x the resolution compared to SD. MPEG-2 was good for SD DVDs. Not sure how good it is for HD if your disc is maxed at 25gb capacity.

I'm sorry, I understand people really want HD-DVD to win because it's easier and cheaper right now, but since when has the easiest option been the best?
If it's cheaper, looks better, sounds better, and has more available titles, then why shouldn't HD DVD win? If BD used a more efficient codec, or at least had 50gb dual layer discs now (so MPEG2 could have a high bit rate at least), and the all the backing studios pumped out more titles, I'd buy it. But that isn't what it's shaping up to be right now. If they can get their act together, this could be a fight... but they are behind.

-Terry

poppe
Jul 14, 2006, 10:33 AM
If it's cheaper, looks better, sounds better, and has more available titles, then why shouldn't HD DVD win? If BD used a more efficient codec, or at least had 50gb dual layer discs now (so MPEG2 could have a high bit rate at least), and the all the backing studios pumped out more titles, I'd buy it. But that isn't what it's shaping up to be right now.

-Terry

Because this is MacRumors which has more Sony fans that Mac fans

Chef Medeski
Jul 14, 2006, 10:45 AM
If it's cheaper, looks better, sounds better, and has more available titles, then why shouldn't HD DVD win? If BD used a more efficient codec, or at least had 50gb dual layer discs now (so MPEG2 could have a high bit rate at least), and the all the backing studios pumped out more titles, I'd buy it. But that isn't what it's shaping up to be right now. If they can get their act together, this could be a fight... but they are behind.

-Terry
Because current performance isn't prove of future trends, even if it is a indicator. If BD has a plan to release 50-200GB discs, while HD DVD can only make 70, then there is an advantage. If BD runs a better codec, I'm not sure but I think MPEG2/4 is a lot more flexible than VC-1 (knowning how windows is), unless its just H.2164? (forgot the number. Yet, personally I used to be a Blu-Ray fan, but now favor HD-DVD. The reason?

Well, firstly, Blu-Ray is obviously going to have a lot more DRM control, which I HATE. I HATE THAT CRAP. I mean the whole rootkit CD thing, pissed of my friends, I mean I didn't care too much cause I could jsut burn it regularily on my mac. :D! But, if a Blu-Ray player comes to mac, I'm sure DRM will come too. And man... that would suck. I really don't want my mac slowed down, so some Sony exec knows what I'm watching.

And personally, I don't see any use for discs over 50GB. I mean I probably could fit my whole music collection on one 70GB HD-DVD to back up. Hell, I could probably fit my music and photo collection if I got rid of some music I have been meaning to get around too. But even if I had to use two discs... big whoop... plus one disc of 200GB.... I don't even have 200GB of HD space ebtween 4 computers. How the hell can I use it?

Plus, with current trends, it looks like HD-DVD will have a bigger foothole by the time Sony releases the PS3... itll be late b/c of shrotage in chip and blue ray drives... and then itll be really expensive. I think Xbox might have one this one... hopefully they dont botch it with the HD-DVD thing. And if they don't then that means for $400 you can get a HD-DVD player.... thats a steal when you consider everything it does also. I just dont see Sony winning this one, unless they drop DRM and massively subsidize all products (fat chance).

TerryJ
Jul 14, 2006, 10:45 AM
Because this is MacRumors which has more Sony fans that Mac fans
Heck, I have a Sony RP television. I love Sony TVs. And I'm no MS fan.

But HD DVD just plain looks better than BD at this point, and for much less money. (And I can actually get some decent movies for it!)

-Terry

Chef Medeski
Jul 14, 2006, 10:46 AM
Faster processors, I'll take those of course. Blu-Ray? Hell no, I don't want that turd. Pretty much every format Sony has ever come up with is dead, just look at the UMD now, its a joke.

I'll pass on that MPAA sponsored DRM ladden expensive dog turd.
UMD wasn't supposed to be a new standard in anything. With the MD, they tried to create new audio players and even a new drive for hte computer, and it was a good format( unlike most sony formats) but since sony was the only one using it.... well.... it went the way of the dinosoars..

but UMD was never like MD in that they tried pushing it on many fronts, just for PSP. And I think its fairly sucessful for only pertainging to PSP owners.

jephrey
Jul 14, 2006, 10:53 AM
I thought that there were other benefits to BD, therefore I've been backing their effort. I read that the scratch resistance of a BD is amazing. I know that there's a size issue at this point, but 25G on one layer is nicer than 30 on 2. Yes, you're going to pay for it, but there's much more "potential" with BD. We justified the expense of our macs using a similar argument. Finally, I think that in the future, we'll be needing that extra space on the 2-6 layers of a BD for uncompressed or losslessly compressed Hi-Fi audio/video. And is BD limited to MEPG-2, or can't it do MPEG-4 h.264 ? But all this may be bunk. I'm waiting for the first HVD to come out, then I can just stour a few TB on each disc. I'll just burn a main and a backup and keep all my digital data on them.

Jephrey

poppe
Jul 14, 2006, 10:58 AM
I thought that there were other benefits to BD, therefore I've been backing their effort. I read that the scratch resistance of a BD is amazing. I know that there's a size issue at this point, but 25G on one layer is nicer than 30 on 2. Yes, you're going to pay for it, but there's much more "potential" with BD. We justified the expense of our macs using a similar argument. Finally, I think that in the future, we'll be needing that extra space on the 2-6 layers of a BD for uncompressed or losslessly compressed Hi-Fi audio/video. And is BD limited to MEPG-2, or can't it do MPEG-4 h.264 ? But all this may be bunk. I'm waiting for the first HVD to come out, then I can just stour a few TB on each disc. I'll just burn a main and a backup and keep all my digital data on them.

Jephrey

If we are gonna base the present of potential then logically you should be going for Holographic disc since they have potential to bring out a single layer 300 gb disc at the end of 2006...

Or is that what you meant by HVD?

guzhogi
Jul 14, 2006, 11:01 AM
I went to my local MicroCenter a few days ago & saw BluRay movies (XXX, Underworld: Evolution, Hitch, and 1 or 2 more) so there ARE movies out for it. Each was worth $29.99 USD so they're gonna be expensive.

I'm just going to wait a while until either BluRay or HD-DVD win out. I'm sure this is going to be like the VHS vs. Betamax thing. I remember hearing that while BluRay can hold more data, movie studios would have to buy totally new equipment to burn them. HD-DVD, however, while having a lower capacity, the studios would only have to make minor adjustments. But don't quote me on that.

If I had the money (which I don't), I'd really like to get the top of the line Mac Pro w/ all the bells & whistles when Apple ships Leopard and build my own windows computer when (if?) Windows Xista ships. I saw a full tower case w/ 5 external 5.25" bays, 2 3.5" external & 5 internal bays. I'd like to get a DVD-burner, a BluRay burner, an HD-DVD burner and a CD-RW. Probably an Nvidia mobo, 2 ATI high-end workstation graphics card (if they work w/ nvidia's sli), a Soundblaster X-Fi w/ the 3.5" bay thing, a memory card reader for the other external 3.5" bay. Then a Western Digital Raptor 10,000 RPM 150GB drive and 4 Seagate 750 GB drives and as many of Apple's 30" displays it can handle (or whatever the biggest, fastest stuff is out then). :D

TerryJ
Jul 14, 2006, 11:13 AM
I went to my local MicroCenter a few days ago & saw BluRay movies (XXX, Underworld: Evolution, Hitch, and 1 or 2 more) so there ARE movies out for it. Each was worth $29.99 USD so they're gonna be expensive.
Yup... there are BD movies (about 10) and HD DVD movies (about 30) available now. The pricing is about $20-30 dollars each. (Not bad, in my opinion.)

The HD DVD group promo site (http://www.thelookandsoundofperfect.com/) has listed all the LOTR and all the Matrix movies as announced. I wouldn't mind picking up those (hopefully by the end of the year.) Hopefully it's not just marketing "carrot on a stick".

-Terry

guzhogi
Jul 14, 2006, 11:23 AM
Does anyone know whether the regular BluRay & HD-DVD players have HDMI connectors? Also, when is HDMI going to become more common on video cards?

Chef Medeski
Jul 14, 2006, 11:23 AM
If we are gonna base the present of potential then logically you should be going for Holographic disc since they have potential to bring out a single layer 300 gb disc at the end of 2006...

Or is that what you meant by HVD?
UMM... of course you should base desicions on the potential of a system, of course within a timeframe. I mean the potential of my Powerbook isn't nearly as great as a MacBook Pro, so that why I wouldn't buy a Powerbook right now ;) . Its not based on cost, cause I can get a powerbook at much less, but just the fact that while the MacBook is only faster for universal apps, so really its mostly slower due to rosetta, and it has no other upgrades..... well there seems to be little advantage to pick it .... OHH WAIT it has the potential to be much faster in the future.... I forgot about that...

ccunning
Jul 14, 2006, 11:28 AM
I just saw this and though it was pretty interesting:

Sony also introduced their own small-format 90.0 94.0 mm disk, similar to the others but somewhat simpler in construction than the AmDisk. The first computer to use this format was the HP-150 of 1983, and Sony also used them fairly widely on their line of MSX computers. Other than this the format suffered from a similar fate as the other new formats; the 5-inch format simply had too much market share. Things changed dramatically in 1984 when Apple Computer selected the format for their new Macintosh computers. By 1989 the 3-inch was outselling the 5-inch.
Here is the source:
Sony's 3.5" Floppy Disk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_drive#The_3.C2.BD-inch_microfloppy_diskette)

Chef Medeski
Jul 14, 2006, 11:31 AM
I just saw this and though it was pretty interesting:

Sony also introduced their own small-format 90.0 94.0 mm disk, similar to the others but somewhat simpler in construction than the AmDisk. The first computer to use this format was the HP-150 of 1983, and Sony also used them fairly widely on their line of MSX computers. Other than this the format suffered from a similar fate as the other new formats; the 5-inch format simply had too much market share. Things changed dramatically in 1984 when Apple Computer selected the format for their new Macintosh computers. By 1989 the 3-inch was outselling the 5-inch.

Here is the source:
Sony's 3.5" Floppy Disk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_drive#The_3.C2.BD-inch_microfloppy_diskette)

Yeah, but wasn't that also when Apple had something like 50% of the consumer market share. I mean... I think its a very different situation even if its the same names.

poppe
Jul 14, 2006, 11:33 AM
UMM... of course you should base desicions on the potential of a system, of course within a timeframe. I mean the potential of my Powerbook isn't nearly as great as a MacBook Pro, so that why I wouldn't buy a Powerbook right now ;) . Its not based on cost, cause I can get a powerbook at much less, but just the fact that while the MacBook is only faster for universal apps, so really its mostly slower due to rosetta, and it has no other upgrades..... well there seems to be little advantage to pick it .... OHH WAIT it has the potential to be much faster in the future.... I forgot about that...

Right. If he is going to base a decision on potential and storage then Blue Ray and HD-DVD is not really the way to go... I find it funny everyone here is oozing for Blue Ray yet Holographic has more potential...

Chef Medeski
Jul 14, 2006, 11:36 AM
Right. If he is going to base a decision on potential and storage then Blue Ray and HD-DVD is not really the way to go... I find it funny everyone here is oozing for Blue Ray yet Holographic has more potential...
Can I purchase a Holographic disc?

Nope not at my local BestBuy, I guess that makes it pretty hard to include. Wait... does anyone have a holographic disc.... nope ... no manufacturer.... not even researchers.... so I guess that means the timeframe for the device... is slated release with Vista or about 10 yrs from now.... which means it doesn't have a greater potential within a timeframe.

poppe
Jul 14, 2006, 11:39 AM
Can I purchase a Holographic disc?

Nope not at my local BestBuy, I guess that makes it pretty hard to include. Wait... does anyone have a holographic disc.... nope ... no manufacturer.... not even researchers.... so I guess that means the timeframe for the device... is slated release with Vista or about 10 yrs from now.... which means it doesn't have a greater potential within a timeframe.
Can I get a Dual Layer BR? No. When can I get that? Probably around the same time Holographic is released. End of the year or beggining of 2007

Acctually as stated before Holographic is supposed to be released at the end of the year.

The true problem with Hologrpahic is we don't have big ole sony or the HD-DVD companies backing it up. Its just one company... so from what I've read they said they will wait and perfect it for the pros first and later come at the consumer.

On potential... Beta had all the Potential and was a better player. I can't remember how that worked out? would you explain?

TerryJ
Jul 14, 2006, 11:40 AM
Does anyone know whether the regular BluRay & HD-DVD players have HDMI connectors? Also, when is HDMI going to become more common on video cards?
Both BD and HD DVD players have HDMI connectors. (Except apparently the cheap PS3 player won't... and not sure about the XBox360 add-on.)

I have a feeling video cards won't be seeing HDMI, considering most monitors have DVI... and you can get a DVI to HDMI adapter anyway.

-Terry

Chef Medeski
Jul 14, 2006, 11:44 AM
From Wiki:

Holographic disks: standards with 200 and 300 GB storage are under development and prototypes expected in 2008

I've heard about Mac users waiting, but 5 years for most likely the first consumer device if lucky, 6 for probably first computer device. 2012.... yes exactly when I wanted to buy my next laptop after the next four I plan to purchase.

Chef Medeski
Jul 14, 2006, 11:49 AM
The real deal about codecs from Wikepedia:

HD DVD:

the same video compression techniques: MPEG-2, Video Codec 1 (VC1) and H.264/MPEG-4 AVC.

HD DVD can be mastered with up to 7.1 channel surround sound using the linear (uncompressed) PCM, Dolby Digital and DTS formats also used on DVDs. In addition, it also supports Dolby Digital Plus and the lossless formats Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD.

BD:

decode at least the following codecs: MPEG-2, the standard used for DVDs; MPEG-4's H.264/AVC codec; and VC-1, a codec based on Microsoft's Windows Media 9. Realistically, when using MPEG-2, quality considerations would limit the publisher to around two hours of high-definition content on a single-layer BD-ROM. The two more advanced video codecs can typically attain four hours of high quality video.

For audio, BD-ROM supports up to 7.1 channel surround sound using the linear (uncompressed) PCM, Dolby Digital and DTS formats also used on DVDs. In addition, it also supports Dolby Digital Plus and the lossless formats Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD.

So, easily seen. The employ the exact same codecs. The only difference is:

BD:
Stricter DRM control
Much More Scratch Resistant
Greater future capacites

HD-DVD:
Cheaper to manufacture

And if Toshiba can make a 6-layer disc... well then that means a 90GB HD-DVD..... not bad. That would pull it in right above the total capacity of my PB HD.

TerryJ
Jul 14, 2006, 11:53 AM
So, easily seen. The employ the exact same codecs.
They CAN use the same codecs. The problem on the BD side is that... all of the Sony discs (and other studios so far) use MPEG2 for video and standard DD or PCM for audio.

Also, the current generation BD decks (Samsung and forthcoming Sony deck) cannot decode DD+, Dolby TruHD audio formats. They can only do same DD and DTS as old DVDs. HD DVD decks can decode DD+ and Dolby TruHD (TruHD can only be decoded to stereo in the current decks, though, unfortunately.) Also, the software needs to have audio encoded in DD+ and Dolby TruHD. All HD DVD discs have at least DD+. No BDs have DD+.

If Sony and other studios started using VC-1 or H.264 for video, things might look better for BD... but they aren't using it. I don't think there are any plans for Sony to author discs using VC-1... ever. It's all MPEG2 as far as I have heard.

[Warner Home Video has already released HD DVDs in VC-1... so it would stand to reason they'd just use the same encode for their BDs, but I guess we'll see if that is true.]

That's the trick. Talking pure specs, on paper, before anything was ever released, and BD seemed like it should be equal or better. Reality... I mean actual implementation, of course, is a different matter.

-Terry

KingYaba
Jul 14, 2006, 11:56 AM
PS3 Consoles will cost 500-600 bucks. 400 bucks cheaper than a blu ray dvd player :) So I bet people could buy that as an alternative to read your blu ray movies. Plus I bet gaming on it will be totally awesome.

Chef Medeski
Jul 14, 2006, 11:59 AM
They CAN use the same codecs. The problem is on the BD side is that... all of the Sony (and other studios so far) discs are using MPEG2 for video and standard DD or PCM for audio. Warner Home Video has already released HD DVDs in VC-1... so it would stand to reason they'd just use the same encode for their BDs, but I guess we'll see if that is true.

Also, the current generation BD decks (Samsung and forthcoming Sony decks) cannot decode DD+, Dolby TruHD audio formats.

If Sony and other studios started using VC-1 or H.264 for video, things might look better for BD... but they aren't using it. I don't think there are any plans for Sony to author discs using VC-1... ever. It's all MPEG2 as far as I have heard.

-Terry
I don't see any reason any manufacture would cripple their own storage capacity when they obviously have other options. If its no for the first generation of discs and players, then coroporate rigmroll is the reason to blame for HD-DVD winning out because that is just STUPID.

poppe
Jul 14, 2006, 12:08 PM
From Wiki:

Holographic disks: standards with 200 and 300 GB storage are under development and prototypes expected in 2008

I've heard about Mac users waiting, but 5 years for most likely the first consumer device if lucky, 6 for probably first computer device. 2012.... yes exactly when I wanted to buy my next laptop after the next four I plan to purchase.

As I said they aren't attacking the Consumer market because they have no Backing. Who can beat Sony when Sony pay's best buy to Disply the blue rays and HD-DVD no longer is displayed?

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8370

This link says 2006

http://www.engadget.com/2005/04/18/inphase-announces-300gb-holographic-discs/

This says 2006 for 300 GBS/ 2009 for 1TB

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/11/24/maxell_holo_storage/

"Late 2006"

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/80850/holographic-discs-set-for-retail-next-year.html

2006...

http://www.techtree.com/techtree/jsp/article.jsp?article_id=69424&cat_id=581

2006...

http://www.layersmagazine.com/beta/article/holographic-discs-set-for-retail-next-year.html

2006...

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Optware-Announces-200GB-Holographic-Discs-for-2006-10859.shtml

2006 - for 200 gbs

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1785630,00.asp

2006...

http://www.computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/storage/story/0,10801,95446,00.html

2006... though this was written (2004) so...

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1311642.cms

2006...

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1821012,00.asp

2006..

From Wikipedia (your source) - "160 times the capacity of single-layer Blu-ray Discs, and about 8 times the capacity of standard computer hard drives with space that accounts for year 2006 standards. Optware is expected to release a 200 GB disc in early June of 2006, and Maxell in September 2006 with a capacity of 300 GB and transfer rate of 20 MB/sec [3] [4].
"
But yeah your probably right:rolleyes:

TerryJ
Jul 14, 2006, 12:12 PM
I don't see any reason any manufacture would cripple their own storage capacity when they obviously have other options. If its no for the first generation of discs and players, then coroporate rigmroll is the reason to blame for HD-DVD winning out because that is just STUPID.
I agree. It's really stupid.

If Blu-ray studios authored their discs in VC-1 and DD+ or TruHD... the whole HD DVD picture/sound "advantage" would be moot. But they are not. (At least, not yet anyway.)

One possibility is that they are just trying to rush stuff out the door (to counter HD DVD's time advantage), and it's easier/faster to author in MPEG2 (with existing tools). At least they can say "we have product out there", even though that product sucks.

But apparently not wanting to use a Microsoft codec is another.

-Terry

Chef Medeski
Jul 14, 2006, 12:15 PM
As I said they aren't attacking the Consumer market because they have no Backing. Who can beat Sony when Sony pay's best buy to Disply the blue rays and HD-DVD no longer is displayed?

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8370

This link says 2006

http://www.engadget.com/2005/04/18/inphase-announces-300gb-holographic-discs/

This says 2006 for 300 GBS/ 2009 for 1TB

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/11/24/maxell_holo_storage/

"Late 2006"

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/80850/holographic-discs-set-for-retail-next-year.html

2006...

http://www.techtree.com/techtree/jsp/article.jsp?article_id=69424&cat_id=581

2006...

http://www.layersmagazine.com/beta/article/holographic-discs-set-for-retail-next-year.html

2006...

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Optware-Announces-200GB-Holographic-Discs-for-2006-10859.shtml

2006 - for 200 gbs

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1785630,00.asp

2006...

http://www.computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/storage/story/0,10801,95446,00.html

2006... though this was written (2004) so...

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1311642.cms

2006...

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1821012,00.asp

2006..

From Wikipedia (your source) - "160 times the capacity of single-layer Blu-ray Discs, and about 8 times the capacity of standard computer hard drives with space that accounts for year 2006 standards. Optware is expected to release a 200 GB disc in early June of 2006, and Maxell in September 2006 with a capacity of 300 GB and transfer rate of 20 MB/sec [3] [4].
"
But yeah your probably right:rolleyes:

Early June. Its middle of July. Where is it? Wheres the player? They're showing of a prototype disc? Its world away from ever reaching my computer.

poppe
Jul 14, 2006, 12:20 PM
Early June. Its middle of July. Where is it? Wheres the player? They're showing of a prototype disc? Its world away from ever reaching my computer.

So one company doesn't display it that means that the other companies that are working on it couldn't have it out by end of 2006/early 2007 as I stated earlier?

Dell didn't release a workstation. Hp must not either

Evangelion
Jul 14, 2006, 12:22 PM
From what I recall, Philips began working on the compact disk project and Sony later on joined them in that venture.

It was originally made by Philips, but the CD we know today is a Philips/Sony Co-Op.

And, regarding the BetaMax... It was actually quite succesfull. Yes, it failed in consumer-space, but it's still being used in television-productions.

Just keep in mind Sony's hit/miss ratio for standardization.;)

Is it REALLY that bad? BetaMax wasn 't really a failure, since it's widely used even today. It's just not used by consumers. Sony was very important in creating the CD. They do have to misses that can't be denied: Memory Stick and MiniDisk.

Other companies might have less misses in these things, but we must acknowledge that none of them has been as active in coming up with alternatives. I haven't really seen Matsushita (for example) try to come up with new stuff. Sony has tried to come up with new stuff. Some of the succeeded, some of them failed.

poppe
Jul 14, 2006, 12:25 PM
It was originally made by Philips, but the CD we know today is a Philips/Sony Co-Op.

And, regarding the BetaMax... It was actually quite succesfull. Yes, it failed in consumer-space, but it's still being used in television-productions.



Is it REALLY that bad? BetaMax wasn 't really a failure, since it's widely used even today. It's just not used by consumers. Sony was very important in creating the CD. They do have to misses that can't be denied: Memory Stick and MiniDisk.

Other companies might have less misses in these things, but we must acknowledge that none of them has been as active in coming up with alternatives. I haven't really seen Matsushita (for example) try to come up with new stuff. Sony has tried to come up with new stuff. Some of the succeeded, some of them failed.


On betamax. Your very right it is very succesful in a production studios for broadcasting and what not. But now even those are being replaced by DVC Pro (which I think is sony is it not?).

But I was more talking about the format war that keeps getting mentioned. It was one vs. the other in the consumer market. Who won? VHS. Thats all I meant.

TerryJ
Jul 14, 2006, 12:27 PM
On betamax. Your very right it is very succesful in a production studios for broadcasting and what not. But now even those are being replaced by DVC Pro (which I think is sony is it not?).
DVC-PRO is a Panasonic created format.

-Terry

poppe
Jul 14, 2006, 12:31 PM
DVC-PRO is a Panasonic created format.

-Terry

Oops... I stand Corrected...

maxvamp
Jul 14, 2006, 12:59 PM
All,

As with DVD+R and DVD-R, the HD Video Disc formats WILL merge. In fact it is Ricoh that is working on it. See here. (http://www.mobilemag.com/content/100/344/C8632/)

As for What will ship, it will be a Pioneer Blu-Ray in the top end Mac. Just look back on the PowerMac DA 700. It had a Pioneer A-03 DVD-R burner ( the first ) and the drive retailed for ( yep, you guessed it ) $1000.

Finally, as for quality, Name me a format space where there were two competitors, and the one with the Higher Quality won? I can personally think of only one time....


Beta vs. VHS ?
Cassette vs. 8-track?
CED vs. LaserVision ?
DVD-A vs. SACD ? ( trick question )
DV- Pro vs. DVCam?
DCC vs. DAT ?
D-1 vs. DCT?
DVD+R vs. DVD-R?

Gas vs. Diesel ?

HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray?


I could go on....

Max.

Rod Rod
Jul 14, 2006, 05:33 PM
I think it will be at least 12 more months before bluray shows up in an Apple machine - at least as a standard. The only real hint I have seen is that they already let you author HD video in DVD SP.
You appear to support Blu-Ray Disc, but your "evidence" is that today we can author HD-DVDs (onto red-laser DVDs) in DVD Studio Pro.

BTW, all Macs sold today, and many Macs going back the past few years, are HD-DVD players. They play HD-DVD from red-laser DVDs authored in DVD SP. DVD Player 4 (or maybe 4.1 or 4.6) in Tiger has the capability as long as your other hardware (G5[s] or Core Duo) is up to it.

peestandingup
Jul 15, 2006, 12:33 AM
I usually think Apple makes great decisions, but my guess is that Blu-Ray was a bad one. I think it will ultimately fail with consumers.

There is A LOT riding on this right now & given Sony's track record with this sorta stuff, im a little concerned. Their PSP (UMD) format is already on its way out & is being discontinued. Not to mention all the other failed Sony formats over the years.

Now, they announce the PS3 is gonna have that ridiculous price tag of $600, which could have been much cheaper if they didnt include Blu-Ray in every single machine. They should have made it an add-on & gave people a choice instead of shoving it in everyones face. Correct me if im wrong, but dont gamers just wanna play games? You're looking at upwards of $1,000 for the system, a couple games, add-ons, etc. If PS3 fails (which it very well might), then kiss Blu-Ray goodbye.

Sony is setting themselves up for a huge backlash & I could really care less about them. I just wish Apple wasnt supporting their format.

sushi
Jul 15, 2006, 02:38 AM
After reading all this good discussion concerning Bluray vs. HD-DVD, it makes me wonder how much the consumer will put up with. It seems to me that the consumer is the one who looses.

Anyhow, just think about 10 years from now we will get a whole new format and whichever wins now, Bluray or HD-DVD, will be outdated! ;) :eek: :D

Platform
Jul 15, 2006, 02:41 AM
Does anyone know whether the regular BluRay & HD-DVD players have HDMI connectors? Also, when is HDMI going to become more common on video cards?

Yes:

There is hardly any reason for the video cards to go with HDMI, they have DVI its the same, just HDMI carries audio as well, we don't need our audio mixed with our video processing ;)

bilbo--baggins
Jul 15, 2006, 03:18 AM
I think it's important for OS X to support Blue Ray as soon as possible, and to me it would seem crazy to not at least offer it as a BTO option when the Mac Pro is launched. Maybe if it's going to be in the PS3 then then high volume purchases will make it cheap enough to put into at least the high end Mac Pros as standard. Looking at the current prices of 800 then obviously that's too expensive to put in as standard.

It seems everything gets integrated these days, for example DVD+RW and DVD-RW both still exist (even though + is more popular and cheaper) so I would assume that sooner or later there will be writers than can work with both HD-DVD and Blue Ray.

Although I really would benefit from Blue Ray discs NOW, I couldn't afford it at current prices. However, I would be very disappointed in Apple as a company if they didn't have it as an option. The top of the range model should be the flagship of the very best and latest technology. Some people will have the money and will be very let down if Apple doesn't deliver.

dextertangocci
Jul 15, 2006, 01:03 PM
As to just web-surfing.... In the time of few years my internet-connection has moved from 512KB to 8MB. I could go to 12 or 24MB right now. The speed-increase has been FAST.

Wow. In South Africa the fastest internet connection we have is 1MB, or if you get HSDPA, 1.*MB:o :( :rolleyes: Plus it's a RIP OFF!!:mad:

poppe
Jul 15, 2006, 04:06 PM
I think it's important for OS X to support Blue Ray as soon as possible, and to me it would seem crazy to not at least offer it as a BTO option when the Mac Pro is launched. Maybe if it's going to be in the PS3 then then high volume purchases will make it cheap enough to put into at least the high end Mac Pros as standard. Looking at the current prices of 800 then obviously that's too expensive to put in as standard.

It seems everything gets integrated these days, for example DVD+RW and DVD-RW both still exist (even though + is more popular and cheaper) so I would assume that sooner or later there will be writers than can work with both HD-DVD and Blue Ray.

Although I really would benefit from Blue Ray discs NOW, I couldn't afford it at current prices. However, I would be very disappointed in Apple as a company if they didn't have it as an option. The top of the range model should be the flagship of the very best and latest technology. Some people will have the money and will be very let down if Apple doesn't deliver.

Only thing I'd be concerned with Blue Ray being offered in Mac Pro's is that the eye was just announced to be in shortage... I doubt Sony is gonna give other companies a bunch of Blue Ray eyes while they will be struggling to have enough for their PS3...

rubaiyat23
Jul 15, 2006, 08:00 PM
Are you sure this drive isn't for Professional Disc for Data media as used in the Sony XDCAM machines?

http://www.tapeonline.com/store/XDCAM_FAQ.asp

It too, is based on Blu-Ray, but with a protective casing a la DVD-RAM.

bloodycape
Jul 16, 2006, 04:00 AM
We've seen it with Betamax, MiniDisc, MemoryStick, etc. Sony doesn't play well with others, they like their own formats. Heck, take a look at the Sony DRM fiasco from last year with the rootkit CDs. Do you really trust Sony to be checking in on what Blueray discs you are playing and verifying your encryption keys on a dailybasis? There are very few features in Blueray which are consumer friendly.

I'd beg to differ on that point. MemoryStick is actually doing pretty well in the market considering that the top three cards are SD, CF and MS stick. Granted they keep changing it but it is doing better then Beta, MiniDisc and MinisDisk HD(even though there are many die hard minidisk fans). Hell you even look at those multi memory card readers there is always support for MS stick. So it does look like Sony did something right there.

Silentwave
Jul 16, 2006, 11:27 AM
I'd beg to differ on that point. MemoryStick is actually doing pretty well in the market considering that the top three cards are SD, CF and MS stick. Granted they keep changing it but it is doing better then Beta, MiniDisc and MinisDisk HD(even though there are many die hard minidisk fans). Hell you even look at those multi memory card readers there is always support for MS stick. So it does look like Sony did something right there.

That's only because one of the biggest brands keeps using it. I honestly can't think of anything Sony doesn't make that uses MS besides card readers.
Even sony must realize its not gonna be such a good idea long term...some of their better cameras don't use it- the new Digital SLR has an adapter to use it- it uses a real professional media format instead.

peestandingup
Jul 16, 2006, 06:54 PM
That's only because one of the biggest brands keeps using it. I honestly can't think of anything Sony doesn't make that uses MS besides card readers.
Even sony must realize its not gonna be such a good idea long term...some of their better cameras don't use it- the new Digital SLR has an adapter to use it- it uses a real professional media format instead.
Yup. Plus, Sony has LOTS of consumer based digital cameras on the market. Most normal people are still new to digital cameras, so they see a bunch of Sony's on sale at Best Buy & they're like "Oh, Sony. I heard they make good cameras." So, they buy one & the salesman says "Hey, you need a memory stick with that." Customer pays it without really looking at other options & Sony just sold to another noob sucker.

Thats why Memory Stick is so popular with average consumers, but not with serious amateurs & pros. They know better.

seashellz
Jul 18, 2006, 01:25 PM
1. The reports are coming in that the BR DVD picture is....well, lousy-while the HD picture is said to be primo. You can buy an HD player NOW (and discs-soon)for under $500.
For all intents and purposes, $1000 Blu Ray players are as scarce as George Bush's IQ numbers-if there are even any to be had at all...

2. *VERY Important: SONY has yet to produce a single BR disc under the promised new HD Codec 1- the prime reason to buy BR HD in the first place-the ones they are selling now are just 'prototype', being rushed to market so they can say "We were first!" which is like selling a car without spark plugs-youll just have to be patient until some arrive.

Yes, a "Better Future" is just around the corner, as they like to say defensively-well I say- PRODUCE THEM-then we will believe-other wise, it is VAPORWARE.
So you are in effect buying v.1 BR discs down at Best Buy-while v.2 discs are still being worked on-possibly to arrive by Christmas.
Who would buy a BR disc that will be obsolete in a few months-that is-if the Codec 1 discs ever arrive at all-?
They are having manufacturing problems with these still- [Corpspeak: "we are 'fine tuning' them"] which is the reason for the delay.

2. SONY JUST GOT KICKED IN THE BALLS #1: (Reuters) a UK high court ruling Friday declared that the the giant SONY/BMG merger is not legal, and must be broken apart, worldwide.
If this ruling stands, SONY will be sucked dry, in order to either fight this, or to seperate, as they have streamlined and folded the two companies in together so tightly-like two Octopi in battle-or love, that it will drain much time, money and resources from the company to fight the ruling, or to re-separate as two distinct entities should they lose...it could in fact, this SINK SONY.

Because of this ruling, Warner Bros. have already backed out of a deal to merge with EMI.
And while spokemen at EMI declared 'This will be no problem,'
Warner Bros. spokesfolks retorted with-'We wouldnt bet the farm on that if we were you'
The deal is on HOLD and possibly withdrawn.

Anyway, this will be a HUGE drain on SONYs already shaky financial structure-they are literally betting the whole company on Blue Ray-hoping it wont become another Betamax. There is also much infighting in the ranks of SONY, according to reports. (also, they themselves admit they have lost 3% marketshare worldwide, since the merger (If thats so, why would they APPEAL the decision?!)

3. SONY JGKITB #2: Reports are coming from the chip manufacturing plant that for every FIVE PSP-3 chips created, only ONE is usable-SONY still has to pay for the other chips. (Wednesdays Gizmo.com)
(they are too complex, and they are rushing this whole thing to market too fast)
What this means is that SONYs expected cash influx from selling these will be nill-in fact, this will bleed the company big time.

What it will mean for the consumer, is that the PSP-3 may be very hard to find, as there will be supply and distribution problems, if this is not corrected PRONTO.
SONY was counting on being able to flood the landscape with these in order to better 'push' BR.
But apparaently not any longer.

And we all know what it means when a desired product is scarce-much higher prices.

SONY has alienated much of the CD community with the secret DRM implant from a few months ago.
They have alienated much of the DVD community with subpar DVD releases of late.
ie: too many pan and scan releases, or cancelled titles.

And will they finally decide on flagging these BR discs so the folks with non-upconverting HDMI Monitors (or no HDMI outs at all) will be unable to play their discs in prime mode, if at all?
If they do-all you thousands of folks with the non-upconverting/compliant "HD" Bigscreen TVs will have to donate them to GOODWILL, and buy a new one.

While these trial discs dont have the feature yet, the *whole rational* in BRs security architecture was to keep
people from copying or PLAYING 'unauthorized' discs.

When SONY finally chooses to implement this essential (in their minds) baseline feature:

1.You will be unable to download BR movies onto your computer from disc or Internet.
2.You will need to connect to the internet through your player to get "permission" from a SONY server to play any title-not just SONY-Columbia movies.
I do not know if HD discs/players have the same feature, but doubt it.

Aside from the intrusion into your privacy, your player would be shut down via a signal from SONY if you tried to play a 'pirated', a backup disc, or one copied/borrowed from a friend. (It is not clear whether you will be locked out from that title only, or your WHOLE player will be shut down-and become a piece of junk-until the situation is rectified with SONY over an 800 number-remember, however, -thought criminals-er, pirates-you will have no reason to complain-or have recourse-what you did was ILLEGAL, so no amount of whining may save you-or your useless player.
(While this is still conjecture-it is a likely and very real possibility-as they spent billion on just this sort of feature)
They WILL NOT be burned by a cracked CSS code and wholesale DVD copying again.

They are serious about "piracy"-and your friends borrowed copy of a title-maybe even if legit-will shut down your player just as if playing a dubious Chinese-made copy of PIRATES OF THE CARRIBEAN disc bought today.

I dont think APPLE or anyone, should jump into BR just yet-It is not OUR duty to shore up a flagging, unproven-or any-HD format.

Let the war of the marketplace and the better player decide, before you buy into another potential Laserdisc or Betamax-whether BR or HD, then make a decision

It clearly looked for a moment that HD was the underdog, but that has changed overnight.
While at this point I have a slight bias towards HD for no particular reason,
I am sitting out ALL HD out until:

1. ONE format emerges as the clear winner.
2. Second generation of players and discs are available - a year or two from now-and most of the kinks are worked out.
Oh yea-and the prices comes down.
3. If this waiting causes the format to fail-IT AINT OUR PROBLEM or RESPONABILITY.
4. They DO NOT implement Orwellian spying on my player or my movie choices via the internet-remember DIVX?.
5. I have the funny feeling that 90% of the masses will care little about HD,
as they are too busy working and LIVING to care that much.

DVD is fine and is GOOD ENOUGH to them-(and to even many of us.)
Hi-Def will be seen as a little too 'esoteric' to them-like Laserdiscs and SACD were.
Why fix what aint broke?

Even those of us with golden eyes, ears AND the disposable income will see no HUGE jump in quality like we (and J6P did) in the jump from VHS to DVD.

Hence, my 10% friends, we will be stuck in a "niche market'-like Laserdisc-or SACD.

So if were really short on luck, we will be:
a. essentially stuck with a betamax player or
b. stuck with a Laserdisc player-for all intents and purposes.
(which happened to me.)

And we all know how that turned out-LD was made obsolete by an even newer technology-DVD.
And dont forget the DVD Audio/SACD/Minidisc fiasco. ALL DOA-or soon to die.

I think more R&D on DVDs will make them to near HD quality.
GREED is stopping the companies from further R&D.

Yet here we are-the richest, most spoiled nation in the world, worrying about whether our picture is as sharp as it could be-or whether the sound is 'just right'-

while millions starve, are dying innocently in illegal wars, by the thousands, or being tortured by cruel rulers-and as we sit on the potential brink of WW 3-as Newt Gringritch* and others are waking up to see.(* an interview Saturday, in Seattle)

Oh, Im still a HT nut-BUT
-this kind knowledge sort of puts the REALLY important things in life into perspective, doesnt it?

WAKE UP.

Lets sit this one out.

7on
Jul 18, 2006, 01:35 PM
I think the biggest problem is that most HD-DVDs use a WMV codec. And any WMV file with DRM is unplayable with osx. I highly doubt these files lack DRM. So OSX will probably not be able to playback HD-DVD disks. BR uses MPEG2 currently and will transition to .h264.

Apple released DVD-RAM with Power Macintoshes back in the day, why can't they release BTO BR drives? I see it more as a viable Data storage than video playback anyway.