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MacRumors
Jul 27, 2006, 09:34 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Intel announced (http://www.macworld.com/news/2006/07/27/core2duo/index.php) the long anticipated Core 2 Duo processors today. Intel announced 10 new chips including 5 designed for latops (Merom) and 5 for desktops (Conroe).

Core 2 Duo runs at slower clock speeds than Pentium-era chips, but is still more productive because it handles more calculations per clock cycle, said Sean Tucker, a product manager at HP. Thanks to that slower speed, Core 2 Duo chips need less electricity, drawing just 65 watts compared to the Pentium 4s 95 watts and Pentium Ds 130 watts.

Intel has already started shipping Core 2 Duo chips to manufacturers, so the first Core 2 Duo Desktop machines should reach consumers in early August. Meanwhile Core 2 Duo laptops will reach consumers by the end of August.

Conroe and Merom are successors to the Core Duo processor which was introduced by Intel early this year. The Core Duo (Yonah) was the first Intel chip used in Apple's switch to intel earlier this year.

At present Apple's lineup is as follows:

Intel: MacBook, MacBook Pro, iMac, Mac mini: Core Duo or Core Solo (Yonah)
PowerPC: PowerMac, Xserve: PowerPC 970 (G5)

Newer processors from Intel sharing a new architecture now include:
Core 2 Duo mobile (Merom)
Core 2 Duo desktop (Conroe)
Xeon 5100 (Woodcrest)

Woodcrest is rumored (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/07/20060711225142.shtml) to be used in the Mac Pro, which is expected be released at WWDC 2006. Apple's use of the Core 2 Duo is not yet clear, but the Core 2 Duo mobile (Merom) is pin compatible (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/06/20060613185240.shtml) with the current Core Duo (Yonah). This means that Apple could easily upgrade the existing Intel-based Macs to the newer processor with no design changes.

Chaszmyr
Jul 27, 2006, 09:36 AM
All of the reviews of the Core 2 Duo say that it crushes AMD in the desktop arena. This is good news, now we just need new iMacs, MacBook Pros, and Mac Pros.

joecool85
Jul 27, 2006, 09:41 AM
Yay! Chips that don't suck and are fast! (I hate P4s)

bigandy
Jul 27, 2006, 09:42 AM
this makes me happy. jumping up and down for wwdc...

:) :) :)

supafly1703
Jul 27, 2006, 09:43 AM
C'mon Steve, wow us...

Littleodie914
Jul 27, 2006, 09:44 AM
So since these new mobile chips are pin-compatible with the Yonah chips (like the one in my MBP), will it be easy/possible to simply buy one and upgrade myself?

thejadedmonkey
Jul 27, 2006, 09:44 AM
WWDC, WWDC, WWDC.... Or perhaps another one of those unannounced bumps.. I really don't like them though, I wish Apple would go back to big announcements on things like this, but yeah...that's life. Now lets have the upgrade!

So since these new mobile chips are pin-compatible with the Yonah chips (like the one in my MBP), will it be easy/possible to simply buy one and upgrade myself?
Yes. I believe people who have gotten their hands on Core 2 Duo beta chips have put them in their mini's with no difference (except a massive speed boost)

G5power
Jul 27, 2006, 09:48 AM
Assuming August 7 as an announcement date of new systems, the waiting is killer.

ferguldy
Jul 27, 2006, 09:49 AM
So are we really going to get ALL of these new toys come WWDC? Leopard preview, Merom laptops, Core2/Woodcrest Mac Pros, Core2 Imacs (oh, and maybe a movie download add to iTunes) That sounds like an awful lot of stuff to cover in such a short period of time. What do people think about timelines for introduction here?

cwedl
Jul 27, 2006, 09:49 AM
at last, I may be able to build a system that will run Vista well!

odedia
Jul 27, 2006, 09:50 AM
Yes. I believe people who have gotten their hands on Core 2 Duo beta chips have put them in their mini's with no difference (except a massive speed boost)

Only the Mac Mini and the iMac's processor can be replaced. the MacBook and MacBook Pro have the processor soldered into the motherboard.

atari1356
Jul 27, 2006, 09:51 AM
Yes. I believe people who have gotten their hands on Core 2 Duo beta chips have put them in their mini's with no difference (except a massive speed boost)

It's no problem in the Mini's, however, in both the MacBook and MacBook Pro the chips are soldered onto the logic board... so they're not upgradeable.

(although I expect some company like Daystar will eventually offer a "mail your computer in and we'll upgrade the processor" service like they do the PowerBook G4's)

Aztechian
Jul 27, 2006, 09:52 AM
Yes. I believe people who have gotten their hands on Core 2 Duo beta chips have put them in their mini's with no difference (except a massive speed boost)

Weren't the notebook CPU's soldered to the boards though?

^^^beat me to it ;-)

Chundles
Jul 27, 2006, 09:56 AM
at last, I may be able to build a system that will run Vista well!

Gee, talk about getting ahead of yourself.

Core 3 will be out before Vista is. I'm going to call it now.

Everybody, be my witness, Core 3 (any processor that goes beyond Core 2 because I don't know if they'll call it "Core 3") will be out before a consumer version of Vista is shipped.

bigmc6000
Jul 27, 2006, 09:59 AM
"...Core 2 Duo chips need less electricity, drawing just 65 watts compared to the Pentium 4’s 95 watts and Pentium D’s 130 watts"

Good Lord - does anybody know what the G5 is? I'd imagine that the elaborate cooling system in the current G5 towers probably won't be needed it it's running anything like the D's...

And about the WWDC, I think it is possible for Merom laptops, Core 2 iMacs, Leopard Preview, Mac Pro's and possibly Movie service. However, I think the movie thing could be replaced by a larger capacity nano but that's about it. Only 1, at most, iTunes/iPod announcement with all the Mac stuff that should be addressed.

twoodcc
Jul 27, 2006, 09:59 AM
Assuming August 7 as an announcement date of new systems, the waiting is killer.

yes i hate waiting. but remember, "good things come to those who wait"

BeefUK
Jul 27, 2006, 09:59 AM
Merom in a macbook is all I want, add in 2GB of RAM, and that'll do me. Although they'll be released in the MBP first............looks like more waiting for my first mac!!!:(

PLEASE PLEASE hurry, I wanna get rid of my PC. The case in like a wind turbine and the CRT monitor is like a heater!

4God
Jul 27, 2006, 10:00 AM
My credit card is melting just thinking about WWDC. :D

Chundles
Jul 27, 2006, 10:00 AM
So are we really going to get ALL of these new toys come WWDC? Leopard preview, Merom laptops, Core2/Woodcrest Mac Pros, Core2 Imacs (oh, and maybe a movie download add to iTunes) That sounds like an awful lot of stuff to cover in such a short period of time. What do people think about timelines for introduction here?

Rule 1 of Apple Events:

You never get all the marbles.

michaelrjohnson
Jul 27, 2006, 10:03 AM
Rule 1 of Apple Events:

You never get all the marbles.
Very very wise, Chundles. You are correct.

(In other words, they're always disappointing on some level to someone.) :)

Chaszmyr
Jul 27, 2006, 10:04 AM
Rule 1 of Apple Events:

You never get all the marbles.

Very, very true. You usually only get half the things you expect... the real gem is when you get something you didn't expect.

gnasher729
Jul 27, 2006, 10:07 AM
So since these new mobile chips are pin-compatible with the Yonah chips (like the one in my MBP), will it be easy/possible to simply buy one and upgrade myself?

With things like this, my rule is: If you have to ask, then you can't do it :-(

At the very least, you have to open your MacBook, get access to the processor, remove it, put in a new ones. But laptops are not built to be opened, and the processor is most definitely not intented to be swapped, so you might have to take an awful lot of things apart. Now taking it apart is the easy part, putting all the things back together again with everything fitting and nothing left over, that is the more difficult part.

It is one thing to try these things with a cheap MacMini, especially if your goal is not to have a faster MacMini, but an impressive webpage. Risking a $2000 MacBook Pro is quite another thing. Better to sell your MacBook/MacBook Pro on eBay and buy a new one.

bigmc6000
Jul 27, 2006, 10:08 AM
Rule 1 of Apple Events:

You never get all the marbles.


Considering some of the rumors I'm thinking all the marbles would be:
MacPro
MBP, MB, iMac, Mini processor update
Leopard Preview
iTunes Movie Store
Larger capacity nanos
True Video iPod

So, you're right. Not a chance we're getting all of that (one can only dream).

Eidorian
Jul 27, 2006, 10:08 AM
"...Core 2 Duo chips need less electricity, drawing just 65 watts compared to the Pentium 4s 95 watts and Pentium Ds 130 watts"

Good Lord - does anybody know what the G5 is? I'd imagine that the elaborate cooling system in the current G5 towers probably won't be needed it it's running anything like the D's...

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=219310

Peace
Jul 27, 2006, 10:10 AM
Very, very true. You usually only get half the things you expect... the real gem is when you get something you didn't expect.

Like the 30th Anniversary Mac ;)

wPod
Jul 27, 2006, 10:11 AM
With things like this, my rule is: If you have to ask, then you can't do it :-(


It is one thing to try these things with a cheap MacMini, especially if your goal is not to have a faster MacMini, but an impressive webpage. Risking a $2000 MacBook Pro is quite another thing. Better to sell your MacBook/MacBook Pro on eBay and buy a new one.

i cant wait to do this to my mac mini. i bought the core solo with the intention of upgrading the chip myself (once i heard core 2 was pin to pin compatible) but my question now is does anyone know if the version shipping is still pin to pin compatible???!?!?!

thogs_cave
Jul 27, 2006, 10:11 AM
All of the reviews of the Core 2 Duo say that it crushes AMD in the desktop arena. This is good news

This week, anyhow. This stuff goes back-and-forth like a tennis match.

I don't know if it's a good thing or not, it just is. I prefer AMD on the whole, as I like their design philosophy. But, I'm totally happy with the Intel chip in my MacBook. Whatever works. I find as I get older, the same computers get faster while I just get slower. :D

pherplexed
Jul 27, 2006, 10:11 AM
wasn't this announced last friday? (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/07/20060721145043.shtml)

jacg
Jul 27, 2006, 10:12 AM
Does anyone know what the maximum size is for a laptop drive is likely to be at the end of August? In other words, predict what Apple will put in a top spec Merom 15" MBP. I want to at least double the 80 GB in my PBG4.

Will MBP get a redesign? New keyboard that doesn't mark my screen perhaps? (BTW, I know nobody can actually give the answers to these questions...)

Eidorian
Jul 27, 2006, 10:12 AM
i cant wait to do this to my mac mini. i bought the core solo with the intention of upgrading the chip myself (once i heard core 2 was pin to pin compatible) but my question now is does anyone know if the version shipping is still pin to pin compatible???!?!?!http://guides.macrumors.com/Merom

mkrishnan
Jul 27, 2006, 10:13 AM
Good Lord - does anybody know what the G5 is? I'd imagine that the elaborate cooling system in the current G5 towers probably won't be needed it it's running anything like the D's...

According to this article (http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/G5/xserveG5.html), a single, single core 2.0GHz 970FX consumes 12-45W, with an average consumption around 25.... An iMac G5 containing onesuch processor consumes about 90W altogether.

michaelrjohnson
Jul 27, 2006, 10:13 AM
wasn't this announced last friday? (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/07/20060721145043.shtml)
Yeah, but it was a line on a report before, and this time there was an "event" of sorts.

BBC B 32k
Jul 27, 2006, 10:13 AM
I am just waiting to pull the trigger and get myself a 20"er. Hurry up with those chips Mr Jobs. Ah and where has the wireless mouse/kbd option gone in the store? Maybe they will be free with the upgraded iMacs. :p

What a world away from the G5 iMacs these beasts will be. Still when (not if) they are out I will prob. start waiting for the chinless 23" wonder - my ideal requirement.

Must hold out...

dextertangocci
Jul 27, 2006, 10:21 AM
Can I swop the Merom with the Yonah in my MB?

BlizzardBomb
Jul 27, 2006, 10:22 AM
Well there's always going to be some die-hard PPC and Core Duo users who will vote negative on this story :p

Well Apple, get those Core 2 Duos in the iMacs and MacBook Pros, and a Woodcrest... No... 2 Woodcrests in the Mac Pros.

jacg
Jul 27, 2006, 10:22 AM
Ah and where has the wireless mouse/kbd option gone in the store? Maybe they will be free with the upgraded iMacs.

According to the bluetooth mighty mouse info at apple.com, you still need a wired keyboard and mouse to install the thing. When you went for the wireless option before, did you get a wired keyboard too?

Also, are there any how-to guides for upgrading Yonah iMacs to Merom?

iAlan
Jul 27, 2006, 10:23 AM
out-of-focus photos of boxes in elevators and poorly photo-shopped renditions of casings...

The only problem is that Apple will have to be on the ball with upgrades so as not to loose the speed war against other intel machines (running Windows unfortunately) but we will all want the latest and fastest processors in the line-up even if we are not in the market for a new computer...

kretzy
Jul 27, 2006, 10:25 AM
Lovely! :)

This time next year I'll be in possession of a flawless Core 2 Duo, Rev C/D MBP, with Leopard. Hopefully

SteveRichardson
Jul 27, 2006, 10:27 AM
MBPs the end of august? I START school in the end of august.


ughghghghghghg

dernhelm
Jul 27, 2006, 10:27 AM
Rule 1 of Apple Events:

You never get all the marbles.

Perfect description.

...But all I want is an iMac upgrade to Core 2 Duo and I'll be happy.

wPod
Jul 27, 2006, 10:27 AM
http://guides.macrumors.com/Merom

hate to be repetative, but this tells me what i already know.

Merom is pin compatible the Yonah's current socket.

but the quesiton comes with this line:

Still, this hasn't prevent users from installing prototype and engineering samples of the chips in Macs

Does anyone know if the chips that are actually shipping are the same as the prototype chips?

again, sorry for the repatition, but id really like to drop one of these in my mini and dont want to find out AFTER i tear apart the mini that the new chips wont fit!

jaxstate
Jul 27, 2006, 10:29 AM
Sorry if i missed it, but at what speeds do these run? Don't they know just because they keep bumping and bumping the chip speed don't really mean they have a faster system. Seem just like yesterday when a better design was more important than a super fast chip. Oh well, everyone is buying into the Mhz myth now. Funny that just a year or so ago, Apple was trying to shoot down the Mhz myth, now they have people cheering for it. I guess power consumption is good though.

Apple Corps
Jul 27, 2006, 10:29 AM
"...Core 2 Duo chips need less electricity, drawing just 65 watts compared to the Pentium 4s 95 watts and Pentium Ds 130 watts"

Good Lord - does anybody know what the G5 is? I'd imagine that the elaborate cooling system in the current G5 towers probably won't be needed it it's running anything like the D's...

And about the WWDC, I think it is possible for Merom laptops, Core 2 iMacs, Leopard Preview, Mac Pro's and possibly Movie service. However, I think the movie thing could be replaced by a larger capacity nano but that's about it. Only 1, at most, iTunes/iPod announcement with all the Mac stuff that should be addressed.

100watts @ 2.5 GHz on the MP970 90mm fab.

ImNoSuperMan
Jul 27, 2006, 10:33 AM
T minus 11 days...............




Cant wait.

jaxstate
Jul 27, 2006, 10:37 AM
Wowzers, that expensive.
"$999 for the 2.93GHz Core 2 Extreme X6800"

jholzner
Jul 27, 2006, 10:42 AM
Sorry if i missed it, but at what speeds do these run? Don't they know just because they keep bumping and bumping the chip speed don't really mean they have a faster system. Seem just like yesterday when a better design was more important than a super fast chip. Oh well, everyone is buying into the Mhz myth now. Funny that just a year or so ago, Apple was trying to shoot down the Mhz myth, now they have people cheering for it. I guess power consumption is good though.

If you read the linked articled you will find the answer.

Also, right from the macrumors page is a quote that says, "Core 2 Duo runs at slower clock speeds than Pentium-era chips, but is still more productive because it handles more calculations per clock cycle." I think that would show that this has nothing to do with the Mhz myth but is the opposite.

treblah
Jul 27, 2006, 10:43 AM
Wowzers, that expensive.
"$999 for the 2.93GHz Core 2 Extreme X6800"

$999 for the 4.0GHz Core 2 Extreme (http://anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2795&p=18) :)

QCassidy352
Jul 27, 2006, 10:50 AM
nice. :) I'm predicting no MBPs at WWDC, just mac pros, leopard preview, and maybe new displays. MBPs will be quietly updated with Merom a week or two later and start shipping soon after that.

unless there's a new case design (which I doubt) - if there is, Steve would have something impressive to show up on stage.

ctachme
Jul 27, 2006, 10:50 AM
MBPs the end of august? I START school in the end of august.


ughghghghghghg

Me too. I'm just going to hang onto my aging iBook G4 until they come out. I really would kick myself if I bought a MacBook Pro now so close to them being updated. I'm just hoping I can order soon, and then they will arrive at the end of August... just in time for school. *crosses fingers*

milo
Jul 27, 2006, 10:57 AM
All of the reviews of the Core 2 Duo say that it crushes AMD in the desktop arena. This is good news, now we just need new iMacs, MacBook Pros, and Mac Pros.

And minis.

I'm guessing we get the towers at WWDC and probably meroms in the macbook. Most if not all the other models will get updates, but they can't do them all at once, I'd bet they'll follow up with separate announcements in a few weeks.

Core 3 will be out before Vista is. I'm going to call it now.

Well, duh. That's already pretty much been announced. Vista will be next year, and quad core intel chips are supposed to be out before the end of the year.

wasn't this announced last friday? (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/07/20060721145043.shtml)

Yeah. But today, it happened.

Does anyone know if the chips that are actually shipping are the same as the prototype chips?

YES! That's the whole point of a prototype.

Sorry if i missed it, but at what speeds do these run? Don't they know just because they keep bumping and bumping the chip speed don't really mean they have a faster system. Seem just like yesterday when a better design was more important than a super fast chip. Oh well, everyone is buying into the Mhz myth now. Funny that just a year or so ago, Apple was trying to shoot down the Mhz myth, now they have people cheering for it. I guess power consumption is good though.

You really need to read about this...these chips are just a little higher clock speed. But they have a 20%+ boost at the same clock speed. They ARE making better chip designs instead of just bumping clock speed. Intel/Apple is actually doing pretty much the opposite of what you accuse them of doing.

bendejo
Jul 27, 2006, 10:57 AM
Since the WWDC is focused on developers, wouldn't it make the most sense for Apple to do all of the chip transition announcements plus the Leopard preview at WWDC and wait until MW SanFran or hold a special event for the video iPod/iTunes movie announcements? After all, developers want to know what to expect in the forthcoming OS and what the processing abilities for the full range of hardware will be so they can devise applications to fully exploit the specs on the OS and the various hardware configs. iPod and iTunes announcements may be neat, but they would seem to be less relevant to the WWDC audience.

DVK916
Jul 27, 2006, 11:02 AM
Only the Mac Mini and the iMac's processor can be replaced. the MacBook and MacBook Pro have the processor soldered into the motherboard.


No, this isn't true. All of them have a socket cpu that can be replaced.

shawnce
Jul 27, 2006, 11:02 AM
"...Core 2 Duo chips need less electricity, drawing just 65 watts compared to the Pentium 4’s 95 watts and Pentium D’s 130 watts"

Good Lord - does anybody know what the G5 is? I'd imagine that the elaborate cooling system in the current G5 towers probably won't be needed it it's running anything like the D's...

1) The watts numbers listed are TDP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_Design_Power). They are not the amount of power the processor consumes ("drawing").

2) PPC 970fx falls in the realm of Conroe in terms of heat generation but of course the Conroe has better performance.

I should note that the PPC 970FX is a single core chip while the PPC 970MP is the dual core one... don't have good numbers for the later but I would guess it would be about 1.75 times (or more) the PPC 970FX in terms of thermal generation and power consumption.

Stridder44
Jul 27, 2006, 11:03 AM
For Great Justice!!

SteveRichardson
Jul 27, 2006, 11:04 AM
Me too. I'm just going to hang onto my aging iBook G4 until they come out. I really would kick myself if I bought a MacBook Pro now so close to them being updated. I'm just hoping I can order soon, and then they will arrive at the end of August... just in time for school. *crosses fingers*

Yeah same same. Haha I've had my iBook G4 for like 2 1/2 years now (can it be that long already?).

tiiimeee for an upgrade.

I wonder if they can ship it to my dorm in one piece if needed (as in if I need to wait that long before they become available....:( )

milo
Jul 27, 2006, 11:08 AM
No, this isn't true. All of them have a socket cpu that can be replaced.

Absolutely not true. The laptops are all soldered. What gave you that idea?

jaxstate
Jul 27, 2006, 11:11 AM
I read the link, and it give no mention of the speeds of the notebook chips. It only gives a range for the desktop chips. Maybe you didn't read it.
If you read the linked articled you will find the answer.

Also, right from the macrumors page is a quote that says, "Core 2 Duo runs at slower clock speeds than Pentium-era chips, but is still more productive because it handles more calculations per clock cycle." I think that would show that this has nothing to do with the Mhz myth but is the opposite.
When did Apple have pentium-era chips in their machines?

Chundles
Jul 27, 2006, 11:11 AM
No, this isn't true. All of them have a socket cpu that can be replaced.

No that isn't true. The desktop Macs have socketed processors but the portables are soldered to the logic board - there are sites that do dissections of new machines and they confirmed it.

Replaceable: iMac, Mac mini
Soldered: MacBook, MacBook Pro.

Please don't post false and misleading information.

jaxstate
Jul 27, 2006, 11:15 AM
Once again, I read it and read it well. The big deal about the G5 being in Mac was that the entire system was redesigned for better performance. Go read about the G5 system architecture if apple still has it up.

You really need to read about this...these chips are just a little higher clock speed. But they have a 20%+ boost at the same clock speed. They ARE making better chip designs instead of just bumping clock speed. Intel/Apple is actually doing pretty much the opposite of what you accuse them of doing.

bradc
Jul 27, 2006, 11:19 AM
"...Core 2 Duo chips need less electricity, drawing just 65 watts compared to the Pentium 4s 95 watts and Pentium Ds 130 watts"

Good Lord - does anybody know what the G5 is? I'd imagine that the elaborate cooling system in the current G5 towers probably won't be needed it it's running anything like the D's...



Don't ask! Hahahaha, the G5's run hot, I'd hate to know how much they're sucking but with a 600W power supply...it's a lot;)

DavidLeblond
Jul 27, 2006, 11:24 AM
Considering some of the rumors I'm thinking all the marbles would be:
MacPro
MBP, MB, iMac, Mini processor update
Leopard Preview
iTunes Movie Store
Larger capacity nanos
True Video iPod

So, you're right. Not a chance we're getting all of that (one can only dream).

MacPro
MBP, iMac processor update
Leopard Preview


I think those are the most likely marbles.

jaxstate
Jul 27, 2006, 11:27 AM
MacPro
Leopard
iTunes Movie store
Asteroid
Al Nano up to 8G
MacPro
MBP, iMac processor update
Leopard Preview


I think those are the most likely marbles.

shawnce
Jul 27, 2006, 11:27 AM
Once again, I read it and read it well. The big deal about the G5 being in Mac was that the entire system was redesigned for better performance. Go read about the G5 system architecture if apple still has it up.

I think you are missing some important facts review ...

Intel announces Core 2 Duo processors, price cuts; AMD fires back (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060727-7364.html)
Into the Core: Intel's next-generation microarchitecture (http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/core.ars)

Intel Core 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_2)
List of Intel Core 2 microprocessors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Core_2_microprocessors)

1) To put it simply the Core 2 family of processors can outperform existing G5s clock for clock and core for core (in many many tasks)... this has nothing to do with just increasing clock rates as you seem to imply in your prior post.

2) The chipset that supports the Core 2 (and Core) has generally greater capabilities (and fewer parts) then the chipset that supports the G5 Macs.

Compare iMac G5 (http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/Developer_Notes/Macintosh_CPUs-G5/iMacG5/index.html)...

http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/Developer_Notes/Macintosh_CPUs-G5/iMacG5/Art/050832001303_01.jpg

...to iMac Core Duo (http://developer.apple.com/documentation/HardwareDrivers/Conceptual/iMac_06Jan/index.html)...

http://developer.apple.com/documentation/HardwareDrivers/Conceptual/iMac_06Jan/Art/051183001314_01.jpg

...and the chipset in a PowerMac replacement will easily exceed the capabilities of the current PowerMacs.

jholzner
Jul 27, 2006, 11:28 AM
I read the link, and it give no mention of the speeds of the notebook chips. It only gives a range for the desktop chips. Maybe you didn't read it.

When did Apple have pentium-era chips in their machines?

They didn't. Where is this Mhz myth you are talking about? They are downplaying the use of Mhz was the point I was making.

milo
Jul 27, 2006, 11:35 AM
Once again, I read it and read it well. The big deal about the G5 being in Mac was that the entire system was redesigned for better performance. Go read about the G5 system architecture if apple still has it up.

What's your point?

Each new generation of these intel chips has improvements over the last. Sometimes clock speeds get higher, but more emphasis is on chip improvements that bring improved performance at the same clock speed. Apple isn't hyping clock speed, these new chips don't have much higher clock speeds than the G4's and G5's they replace and have considerably lower clock speeds than other intel and amd chips that are already out.

Not only has Apple continued to shoot down the MHZ myth, Intel has joined as well.

If you look at benchmarks, I think the yonahs already outperformed the G5's for many things at the same clock speed. This next gen takes it a step farther.

mdntcallr
Jul 27, 2006, 11:39 AM
No that isn't true. The desktop Macs have socketed processors but the portables are soldered to the logic board - there are sites that do dissections of new machines and they confirmed it.

Replaceable: iMac, Mac mini
Soldered: MacBook, MacBook Pro.

Please don't post false and misleading information.

Chundles and the others are right. THE CPU is SOLDERED on to the logic board.

That said, it does NOT mean the CPU cannot be upgraded. There are mac upgrade companies which are soon to launch services where you can fedex in your laptop in, and within days, they will replace the cpu, solder expertly on a new one, and you will be very happy with a new / faster CPU.

honestly, right now i do not believe the power differential to be worth it. it would be better to wait for chips with a larger speed differential.

milo
Jul 27, 2006, 11:42 AM
honestly, right now i do not believe the power differential to be worth it. it would be better to wait for chips with a larger speed differential.

Based on current pricing, the only upgrade that is really appealing right now is Core Solo mini to merom.

mashinhead
Jul 27, 2006, 11:48 AM
Yes. I believe people who have gotten their hands on Core 2 Duo beta chips have put them in their mini's with no difference (except a massive speed boost)


so cn you put it in a mb too?

ChickenSwartz
Jul 27, 2006, 11:49 AM
Since the WWDC is focused on developers, wouldn't it make the most sense for Apple to do all of the chip transition announcements plus the Leopard preview at WWDC...

This seems to make most sense to me. Obviously developers care about the OS. But introducing a line of "Pro" machines with the newest/best processor (maybe a new look?!?) seems intuitive at a developers conference but who knows.

I sit waiting anxiously. For me, I hope there is a new MBP with Merom by the time school starts. If they changed nothing but the processor I would be happy...it seems they have worked most of the kinks out (whine, etc.) by now.

Fabio_gsilva
Jul 27, 2006, 11:53 AM
Gee, talk about getting ahead of yourself.

Core 3 will be out before Vista is. I'm going to call it now.

Everybody, be my witness, Core 3 (any processor that goes beyond Core 2 because I don't know if they'll call it "Core 3") will be out before a consumer version of Vista is shipped.

I'll remember!

ChickenSwartz
Jul 27, 2006, 11:54 AM
Has anyone ever thought that the reasons the MBPs run hot is because they were originally designed to have a cooler chip in them...Merom.

I know it had been rumored that Apple originally wanted to wait for Merom but "settled" for Yonah to get Intel in faster. Or maybe I am just trying to give myself hope that I will get a super cool MBP in a month (or less?).

milo
Jul 27, 2006, 11:55 AM
so cn you put it in a mb too?

mini and iMac can be upgraded, they have a socket.

MB and MPB can not (at least not do it yourself), they are soldered.

Eidorian
Jul 27, 2006, 12:07 PM
hate to be repetative, but this tells me what i already know.



but the quesiton comes with this line:



Does anyone know if the chips that are actually shipping are the same as the prototype chips?

again, sorry for the repatition, but id really like to drop one of these in my mini and dont want to find out AFTER i tear apart the mini that the new chips wont fit!http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=276&type=expert&pid=3

There might be a voltage issue. It will fit though.

moonzilla
Jul 27, 2006, 12:08 PM
i think it's safe to assume that Apple will be making an effort to differentiate the Macbooks and the MBP. As of right now, other than the video card, and backlit keyboard, there doesnt seem like a solid reason to fork over an extra 800-1200 bucks. i expect Apple to use the core2 for this purpose. put merom only in the mbp, and force the power-hungry users to upgrade to the pro model.

LillieDesigns
Jul 27, 2006, 12:14 PM
i think it's safe to assume that Apple will be making an effort to differentiate the Macbooks and the MBP. As of right now, other than the video card, and backlit keyboard, there doesnt seem like a solid reason to fork over an extra 800-1200 bucks. i expect Apple to use the core2 for this purpose. put merom only in the mbp, and force the power-hungry users to upgrade to the pro model.

this would be smart because as of right now the mac book pro doesnt WOW me over the macbook. Do you think the "core 3" will also have the same pin structure as the 2's?

Kelmon
Jul 27, 2006, 12:15 PM
I wish people would stop posting these articles. Every time I read a new one talking about Merom and new MacBook Pros I end up soiling my pants. Frankly, my wife is starting to complain...

Dan==
Jul 27, 2006, 12:17 PM
How about a new Mac at WWDC?

Lower Model:
CConroe E6300 - 1.86 GHz FSB1066 2 MB cache - ($185)
1GB RAM
160GB Serial ATA hard drive
Double-layer SuperDrive (DVD+R DL/DVDRW/CD-RW)
One open PCI-Express expansion slot
One open Optical drive slot [maybe] (i.e. for 2nd DVD drive)
Graphics Card with 128MB SDRAM
Built-in AirPort Extreme and Bluetooth 2.0, USB/FW800
Remote [(?] I think this box will still be small enough to fit into home entertainment setups.]
Keyboard, Mighty Mouse...................................................... $999

Some Options:
Conroe E6600 - 2.40 GHz FSB1066 4 MB cache (+$100)
Wireless Keyboard/Mouse +$60
Add DVD/CD ROM drive (in 2nd slot) + $50
250GB SATA hard drive +$75
+1GB RAM (2GB total) +$100
+3GB RAM (4GB total) +$300
Slightly Better Graphics Card with 256MB SDRAM + $50
Much Better Graphics Card +$200+

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/9648/macandmacminipx9.jpg

ChrisA
Jul 27, 2006, 12:18 PM
With things like this, my rule is: If you have to ask, then you can't do it :-(


How true. The processor is soldered to the logic board on the notebooks It is in a socket in the iMac. So yes iMacs will be easy to upgrade but MB and MBP will require conciderable level of skill and some very specialized equipment. There may be 3rd parties offing the upgrade some day

Why would they solder the CPU? Saves the space of a socket. Heat transfer is better, very little chance of it comming loose. Those socets add not a small amount of height to the chip

fastlane1588
Jul 27, 2006, 12:19 PM
thats a pretty cool concept i must say

shawnce
Jul 27, 2006, 12:25 PM
Do you think the "core 3" will also have the same pin structure as the 2's?

Future revisions of the Core 2 will use a new socket allowing for faster FSB speeds, etc. (so the answer is likely no).

Teddy's
Jul 27, 2006, 12:32 PM
at last, I may be able to build a system that will run Vista well!

EEEEEEEEEWWWWW!!!!!

BlizzardBomb
Jul 27, 2006, 12:51 PM
How about a new Mac at WWDC?

The Mac name will never work! It's just too generic. And Apple must be suicidal if they keep a Core Solo in the Mini. The Core Solo will NOT be price dropped and offers very poor value for money compared to a low-end Merom or mid-range Yonah (after price drop).

Manuel Moreno
Jul 27, 2006, 12:59 PM
will apple lower the actual prices of macs?
intel is about to cut 61% of the prices of core duo's...

valiar
Jul 27, 2006, 01:02 PM
Ouch.
And I have just bought a 2.16 GHz MacBook Pro.
I know what everybody would say - "buy the machine that is available now". That is what I am saying to myself.
Still - ouch :(

milo
Jul 27, 2006, 01:03 PM
this would be smart because as of right now the mac book pro doesnt WOW me over the macbook. Do you think the "core 3" will also have the same pin structure as the 2's?

The next gen of chips has 4 core versions of conroe and woodcrest, each with the same sockets as the ones they're replacing. Not sure if there will be a 4 core merom.

How about a new Mac at WWDC?

Lower Model:
CConroe E6300 - 1.86 GHz FSB1066 2 MB cache - ($185)
1GB RAM
160GB Serial ATA hard drive
Double-layer SuperDrive (DVD+R DL/DVDRW/CD-RW)
One open PCI-Express expansion slot
One open Optical drive slot [maybe] (i.e. for 2nd DVD drive)
Graphics Card with 128MB SDRAM
Built-in AirPort Extreme and Bluetooth 2.0, USB/FW800
Remote [(?] I think this box will still be small enough to fit into home entertainment setups.]
Keyboard, Mighty Mouse...................................................... $999

Some Options:
Conroe E6600 - 2.40 GHz FSB1066 4 MB cache (+$100)
Wireless Keyboard/Mouse +$60
Add DVD/CD ROM drive (in 2nd slot) + $50
250GB SATA hard drive +$75
+1GB RAM (2GB total) +$100
+3GB RAM (4GB total) +$300
Slightly Better Graphics Card with 256MB SDRAM + $50
Much Better Graphics Card +$200+

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/9648/macandmacminipx9.jpg

Pretty cool, but it needs a real name, MAC won't cut it. Maybe Mac Express?

And it wouldn't have FW800 or a second optical slot. Probably a second HD slot instead. And I'd guess it would be more of a pizza box enclosure, but that's wild speculation. Your price is probably way too low, too.

shawnce
Jul 27, 2006, 01:12 PM
The next gen of chips has 4 core versions of conroe and woodcrest, each with the same sockets as the ones they're replacing.

Those aren't next generation version of the Core 2 just MCM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-Chip_Module) of the existing Core 2.

Krevnik
Jul 27, 2006, 01:13 PM
will apple lower the actual prices of macs?
intel is about to cut 61% of the prices of core duo's...

Probably not, except maybe the Mini. Expect chips to shove down the product line, rather than Apple to mess with the pricing structure. And at best, any price drop would be 10% or less, on average, because of the cost of the other components.

andiwm2003
Jul 27, 2006, 01:19 PM
How about a new Mac at WWDC?

Lower Model:
CConroe E6300 - 1.86 GHz FSB1066 2 MB cache - ($185)
1GB RAM
160GB Serial ATA hard drive
Double-layer SuperDrive (DVD+R DL/DVDRW/CD-RW)
One open PCI-Express expansion slot
One open Optical drive slot [maybe] (i.e. for 2nd DVD drive)
Graphics Card with 128MB SDRAM
Built-in AirPort Extreme and Bluetooth 2.0, USB/FW800
Remote [(?] I think this box will still be small enough to fit into home entertainment setups.]
Keyboard, Mighty Mouse...................................................... $999

Some Options:
Conroe E6600 - 2.40 GHz FSB1066 4 MB cache (+$100)
Wireless Keyboard/Mouse +$60
Add DVD/CD ROM drive (in 2nd slot) + $50
250GB SATA hard drive +$75
+1GB RAM (2GB total) +$100
+3GB RAM (4GB total) +$300
Slightly Better Graphics Card with 256MB SDRAM + $50
Much Better Graphics Card +$200+




prepare to be disappointed.

and your prices are $500 to low anyway.

gauriemma
Jul 27, 2006, 01:25 PM
I never thought there'd come a day when I needed to know anything about what kind of chips Intel was coming out with.

rockthecasbah
Jul 27, 2006, 01:35 PM
This means that Apple could easily upgrade the existing Intel-based Macs to the newer processor with no design changes.
Not many people seem to be making too much of a deal about this, but i don't like the sound of that. It's great for upgrading a Mini or iMac, but i really want fresh new designs for the Mac Pro and MacBook Pro. If that is the case, Apple may just wait longer for a design change just because they can! It's not like i'd turn one away, but the current designs are tiring... Oh well i'll still be excited if my "fears" are true, but i really want a fresh design.

Am i the only one that seems to think that WWDC is getting clogged up with TOO many things? I mean sure the more Apple products released/updated the better, but this keynote seems to be taking a lot of emphasis off of Leopard previews (according to the rumors) to focus more on new products. iPods galore, Mac Pros, MBPs, Mac Mini (maybe), whatever at this point, i mean where are we really fitting in Leopard other than a quick flash!?!

enda1
Jul 27, 2006, 01:37 PM
How long do you people think it will be before merom is put in the macbook?
Really want one befor i go back to college but it looks lokie i might have to splurge for an MBP instead.

Poor me....

Willis
Jul 27, 2006, 01:45 PM
I havent checked yet to see if someone mentioned it, but in regard to what people expect to see at WWDC, dont worry if it isnt annouced then... Paris Expo is in September.

Mac Pro's might come out then i think.

mozmac
Jul 27, 2006, 01:53 PM
Apple has been silent for a while in the hardware release area. It's time for them to update their whole line for the back-to-school and Christmas seasons. I can't wait for Aug 7. I want to see Leopard so bad. Also, let's all remember that Apple can make product announcements at any time. I can see the PowerMac being updated at WWDC because it's a product that deals with the developer market; however, consumer products could very well be reserved for a separate, stand-alone announcement day.

Multimedia
Jul 27, 2006, 01:55 PM
Well it's back to the future for all of us. Remember when the Mac was going 64-bit with the introduction of the G5 PowerMac on June 23, 2003? :rolleyes: Only more than three years later and we're doing it all over again thanks to Yonah's 7 month retrograde.

Dan==
Jul 27, 2006, 02:00 PM
The Mac name will never work! It's just too generic. And Apple must be suicidal if they keep a Core Solo in the Mini. The Core Solo will NOT be priced dropped and offers very poor value for money compared to a low-end Merom or mid-range Yonah (after price drop).

I can't say much about the name. I'm not the first to offer it. But nothing else comes to mind that seems to fit well.

For the Mini, I'd much rather see a Duo in the bottom of line unit, but let's face it, there's a lot of clamouring for the return of a sub $500 dollar unit, and a Core 2 Duo won't be in it, at least not in the next 6 months anyway. I'd personally like to see a $499 unit with a Core 2 Yonah, but suspect a Solo is all that will be affordable. For the rest of the Mini's, we should see 2MB cache Merom's. They're gonna be the same prices!

It's true, I haven't seen any price cuts in print for the Solo, but they simply can't be kept the same (when the other processors start shipping). But, true, this is an assumption.

Pretty cool, but it needs a real name, MAC won't cut it. Maybe Mac Express?

And it wouldn't have FW800 or a second optical slot. Probably a second HD slot instead. And I'd guess it would be more of a pizza box enclosure, but that's wild speculation. Your price is probably way too low, too.
Thanks!

I can't figure out why it wouldn't have a 2nd slot or FW800. They're both cheap enough to add. The only problem is the 2nd slot adds some height, but not that much. This unit would be less than 5" tall. And anyway, how do you backup your CD's? What a pain to go to the HD first! Adding another slot for a HD would be great, but I think that'll be one of the differentiators with the Pro. (Hey, maybe one or the other.)

As far the price goes, why does someone always have to resist? At this price there is plenty more profit here than the Mini.

Here's what I wrote in a thread over at 123macmini.com
http://www.123macmini.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6896&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
However, these prices are, I think, pretty doable. They're based largely on what Apple already sells the Mini for. That cheaper Conroe processor is just about the same price as the Core Solo in the $600 Mini right now! (Well, when it was introduced, anyway.) 3.5" 160MB SATA drives are roughly the same price as 2.5" 60GB SATA drives, separate graphics are < $50, and I suspect that system slots, fans, FW800, and other interfaces wouldn't add more than $100 to the price of the system. (Think +$50 in profits over the Mini.)
That was before I included a number of things, including extra RAM, and a mouse/keyboard in the base model, and bumped the price $40. Also, the cheaper Conroe came out at $185 instead of $210 as was being considered.

I think a box like this at $999 would have $100 to $150 more profit than the Mini!

-Dan

BlizzardBomb
Jul 27, 2006, 02:00 PM
Well it's back to the future for all of us. Remember when the Mac was going 64-bit with the introduction of the G5 PowerMac on June 23, 2003? :rolleyes: Only more thanthree years later and we're doing it all over again thanks to Yonah's 7 month retrograde.

What difference does it make if virtually no consumer software is effected by 64-bit processors, even now?

penter
Jul 27, 2006, 02:06 PM
i literally let out a high pitched "aaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh" when i saw this. Im really excited about it, yet so sad that i wont be able to enjoy it since i just bought my new mac a month ago (hence the "aaaahhhh")
this summarizes my post: :) but :(

steve_hill4
Jul 27, 2006, 02:07 PM
How about a new Mac at WWDC?

Lower Model:
CConroe E6300 - 1.86 GHz FSB1066 2 MB cache - ($185)
1GB RAM
160GB Serial ATA hard drive
Double-layer SuperDrive (DVD+R DL/DVDRW/CD-RW)
One open PCI-Express expansion slot
One open Optical drive slot [maybe] (i.e. for 2nd DVD drive)
Graphics Card with 128MB SDRAM
Built-in AirPort Extreme and Bluetooth 2.0, USB/FW800
Remote [(?] I think this box will still be small enough to fit into home entertainment setups.]
Keyboard, Mighty Mouse...................................................... $999

Some Options:
Conroe E6600 - 2.40 GHz FSB1066 4 MB cache (+$100)
Wireless Keyboard/Mouse +$60
Add DVD/CD ROM drive (in 2nd slot) + $50
250GB SATA hard drive +$75
+1GB RAM (2GB total) +$100
+3GB RAM (4GB total) +$300
Slightly Better Graphics Card with 256MB SDRAM + $50
Much Better Graphics Card +$200+

While I like your thinking, your mock-up is wrong. If Apple are going to release a mid-Tower it has to appeal to both gamers and those looking for a headless iMac. They would really have to bring out about three main models, one which was basically an upgradable iMac spec for a couple to few hundred bucks less than the real deal and two higher spec conroes, (short of Mac Pro though). From what I can see, yours looks too small to easily customise, which would appeal to gamers.

Single optical, single HD (2nd slot free), assume better specs will mainly lie with graphics and ram.

steve_hill4
Jul 27, 2006, 02:13 PM
What difference does it make if virtually no consumer software is effected by 64-bit processors, even now?
Remember that the G5 is 64 bit. While the consumer apps may not be too directly affected at first, (speed increases, but nothing else), as more memory is required, 32 bit will hit a brick wall at 4GiB, whereas 64 bit can go along happily to 2,305,843,009,200,000,000GiB.

Realistically, it will take some time to get to that level, but with the last G5 supporting 16GiB, 32 then 64 wouldn't be too far off. within 10 years, I'm sure 1TiB will start to become common.

BlizzardBomb
Jul 27, 2006, 02:15 PM
Remember that the G5 is 64 bit. While the consumer apps may not be too directly affected at first, (speed increases, but nothing else), as more memory is required, 32 bit will hit a brick wall at 4GiB, whereas 64 bit can go along happily to 2,305,843,009,200,000,000GiB.

Realistically, it will take some time to get to that level, but with the last G5 supporting 16GiB, 32 then 64 wouldn't be too far off. within 10 years, I'm sure 1TiB will start to become common.

But with only 2 RAM slots in most current Macs (apart from obviously the Power Mac G5 which has 64-bit processor anyway), getting past 4GB is basically impossible/ ridiculously expensive at the moment.

Willis
Jul 27, 2006, 02:19 PM
They didn't. Where is this Mhz myth you are talking about? They are downplaying the use of Mhz was the point I was making.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKF9GOE2q38

Anyone wanting to know about the Mhz myth shall find it there.

These new chips are to prove that the Mhz myth doesnt exist. Just by changing their arch. they can provide more performance with the same mhz, instead of increasing it (such as the Pentiums)

Imagine. If the Intel's were'nt annouced in January... we'd only have them for a month or two now instead of 7. Crazy.

Just goes to show the MBP's truely are designed for Merom

milo
Jul 27, 2006, 02:21 PM
Those aren't next generation version of the Core 2 just MCM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-Chip_Module) of the existing Core 2.

Still, they are the successors to conroe and woodcrest. As long as they are socket compatible, they're the next generation for these machines, whether you consider them a new chip or not.

Am i the only one that seems to think that WWDC is getting clogged up with TOO many things? I mean sure the more Apple products released/updated the better, but this keynote seems to be taking a lot of emphasis off of Leopard previews (according to the rumors)

It's all just rumor at this point. More than 2 computer announcments would be very unlikely, and the idea that all macs would get updated at once is ridiculous.

Well it's back to the future for all of us. Remember when the Mac was going 64-bit with the introduction of the G5 PowerMac on June 23, 2003? :rolleyes: Only more thanthree years later and we're doing it all over again thanks to Yonah's 7 month retrograde.

The only mac that took a step back was the iMac, and it never took advantage of any of the 64 bit advantages in the first place.

I can't figure out why it wouldn't have a 2nd slot or FW800. They're both cheap enough to add. The only problem is the 2nd slot adds some height, but not that much. This unit would be less than 5" tall. And anyway, how do you backup your CD's?

A second slot is overkill for a midline model. And Apple has obviously made the decision that FW800 is a pro feature only, if it's not in the 15 inch MBP. Not to mention that it's not included in the standard intel chipsets, so adding it is extra work for Apple.

Remember that the G5 is 64 bit. While the consumer apps may not be too directly affected at first, (speed increases, but nothing else), as more memory is required, 32 bit will hit a brick wall at 4GiB, whereas 64 bit can go along happily to 2,305,843,009,200,000,000GiB.


And since the iMacs have never supported more than 2 gigs of ram, how is that a step back by switching them to Yonah?

inkswamp
Jul 27, 2006, 02:22 PM
but is still more productive because it handles more calculations per clock cycle

I'm no processor geek. I have a basic understanding of the terminology and how things work so correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this one of the advantages that the PPC had over Intel chips? Does this mean Intel is moving toward shorter pipes? Are we talking more instructions per clock cycle or what? What does "calculations" mean in this context?

Dan==
Jul 27, 2006, 02:29 PM
While I like your thinking, your mock-up is wrong. If Apple are going to release a mid-Tower it has to appeal to both gamers and those looking for a headless iMac. They would really have to bring out about three main models, one which was basically an upgradable iMac spec for a couple to few hundred bucks less than the real deal and two higher spec conroes, (short of Mac Pro though). From what I can see, yours looks too small to easily customise, which would appeal to gamers.

Single optical, single HD (2nd slot free), assume better specs will mainly lie with graphics and ram.
I'm not much of a gamer, so take this with a healthy grain of salt...

Gamers seem to like to do a few things:

Upgrade the processor, or overclock it, possibly with cooling.
Faster memory
Better graphics cards
Here's my take on this box.

The processor should be swappable, as it is in the Mini, and should be easier. Overclocking should be no problem, but special cooling would be a challenge. However, for those max systems, why not just leave it to the Pro. (What's the Pro going to be for, anyway?)
Memory upgradable - of course. 64 bit processor. Box should support at least 8GB.
I'd expect graphics cards to be on their own slot, and upgradable. (I.e. see the BTO options)

Also, the system as spec'd has an open PCI-x slot, which isn't much use for these things, and adding more slots won't really help, except more space for cooling.

With a choice of processor, memory, and graphics cards, I think you have a machine that spans $1000 to well over $1500, slotting in nicely between the Mini and Pro in both price and capability.

I'll have to leave it to Apple to make the internals accessible. I'm not drawing that :-). (:) for you left-tilt-challenged individuals.)

Oh, and I really like having a 2nd optical drive, so I'm leaving it in. :-) If Apple has to take it out, so be it.

eeboarder
Jul 27, 2006, 02:29 PM
Actually, the merom in not completely compatible with the yonah chips. There will have to be some redesign on Apple's part that is supposed to delay the new MBPs. This article somewhat explains it:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=249

Also, since Apple is now kind of competeing with PCs who get the newest and fastest, it would be in Apple's best interest to get these chips in MBPs asap. Also, it is easy to see that a lot of people are waiting to purchase a new Apple laptop with this technology. MBP's current sales are going to slump from here on out until this technology is put into some new computers.

Eidorian
Jul 27, 2006, 02:32 PM
Actually, the merom in not completely compatible with the yonah chips. There will have to be some redesign on Apple's part that is supposed to delay the new MBPs. This article somewhat explains it:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=249

Also, since Apple is now kind of competeing with PCs who get the newest and fastest, it would be in Apple's best interest to get these chips in MBPs asap. Also, it is easy to see that a lot of people are waiting to purchase a new Apple laptop with this technology. MBP's current sales are going to slump from here on out until this technology is put into some new computers.WRYYYYYY!!!

Looks like I'm going with a tower or iMac for school then.

Dan==
Jul 27, 2006, 02:43 PM
A second slot is overkill for a midline model. And Apple has obviously made the decision that FW800 is a pro feature only, if it's not in the 15 inch MBP. Not to mention that it's not included in the standard intel chipsets, so adding it is extra work for Apple.
Ah. That last point could be the most important aspect for inclusion of FW800.

As far as the 2nd optical slot goes, don't you think it's a pain to have only a single drive?

And especially when a second one probably adds less than $50-$75 to the system cost to the customer? (And extra profit potential for Apple?)

yac_moda
Jul 27, 2006, 02:45 PM
Nice news from intel, good for WWDC ...

... Apple will probably announce right before, since SJ said long ago no hard announcements at WWDC.

Of course he reverses A LOT :eek:

ARE YOU PREPARED for the NASTY NEWS THAT COULD COME AT ANY TIME :eek: :eek:


MS will announce that they are dropping Mac development :eek: :eek: :eek: :mad:


DON'T YOU GET IT ...

... this is the plan Bill G., the NICE GUY, leaves MS with his CLOD BULLDOG in charge AND YOU GET WHAT YOU GET, Balmer cuts the Mac devision and probably a TON of other jobs too and then they announce their MP3 player and all sorts of services !!!

This way their player looks more credible then Apple, for a while anyway !!

If Apple was smart after all they would have hired me to test their spreadsheet app a long time ago, I am after all, the SPREADSHEET GOD :cool:

matznentosh
Jul 27, 2006, 02:54 PM
Don't ask! Hahahaha, the G5's run hot, I'd hate to know how much they're sucking but with a 600W power supply...it's a lot;)


Reminds me of the time I borrowed my brother's very old Volkswagon Beetle, the air cooled kind. I noticed there was no temperature gage and asked him how hot it gets - he laughed and said "you don't want to know... think cherry red hot metal".

Snowy_River
Jul 27, 2006, 02:55 PM
Pretty cool, but it needs a real name, MAC won't cut it. Maybe Mac Express?

And it wouldn't have FW800 or a second optical slot. Probably a second HD slot instead. And I'd guess it would be more of a pizza box enclosure, but that's wild speculation. Your price is probably way too low, too.

I'm not sure why you're saying this price is way too low. The specs, so far as I can see, are quite similar to the current bottom-end iMac, which has an integrated screen, and it's price is only $300 more. It seems to me that this price is actually about right.

Also, I think that the name 'Mac' is a distinct possibility. Not saying I like it (or that I don't), or that it isn't simplistic, but I think that it's not unreasonable. FWIW, 'Mac Express' is nice, too, but I don't see Apple jumping on a name like that as quickly.

tekmoe
Jul 27, 2006, 02:57 PM
Actually, the merom in not completely compatible with the yonah chips. There will have to be some redesign on Apple's part that is supposed to delay the new MBPs. This article somewhat explains it:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=249

Also, since Apple is now kind of competeing with PCs who get the newest and fastest, it would be in Apple's best interest to get these chips in MBPs asap. Also, it is easy to see that a lot of people are waiting to purchase a new Apple laptop with this technology. MBP's current sales are going to slump from here on out until this technology is put into some new computers.

this blog was also written by jason o'grady, aka the PowerPage rumor site. his writing means nothing to me.

BlizzardBomb
Jul 27, 2006, 03:02 PM
I can't say much about the name. I'm not the first to offer it. But nothing else comes to mind that seems to fit well.


But its like ATI simply naming one of their chips ATI Radeon with no additional naming (being something like X1800 etc.). Why not something like Mac Plus, Mac Extra, Mac Express... I could go on.

jholzner
Jul 27, 2006, 03:16 PM
Nice news from intel, good for WWDC ...

... Apple will probably announce right before, since SJ said long ago no hard announcements at WWDC.

Of course he reverses A LOT :eek:



Can you show me where he said that? I don't recall hearing that his year. In the past I recall them stating that but it was only for the particular WWDC not a blanket statement. They intro'd the G5 Powermac at a WWDC.

lOUDsCREAMEr
Jul 27, 2006, 03:19 PM
T minus 11 days...............




Cant wait.

i always wonder what does that T stand for??:confused:

aaronb
Jul 27, 2006, 03:21 PM
I always thought it was "Time" but I could be wrong!

eeboarder
Jul 27, 2006, 03:25 PM
this blog was also written by jason o'grady, aka the PowerPage rumor site. his writing means nothing to me.

It is a rumor.....just like many other things including almost everything on this site. You just have to decide for yourself really.

SiliconAddict
Jul 27, 2006, 03:25 PM
Rule 1 of Apple Events:

You never get all the marbles.


Too be fair Apple has never been given all the marbles, from moto, to hand out in the first place. This is new for them.

SiliconAddict
Jul 27, 2006, 03:29 PM
this blog was also written by jason o'grady, aka the PowerPage rumor site. his writing means nothing to me.


++

99.998% of what is posted on POwerPage is garbage. I love the crap about how he's against a buttonless iPOd because touching the screen would scratch it. o.O No Jason....touching the screen would smuge it. Unless you hands are as hard as sandpaper....anyways. PP is pretty much crap.

Nice news from intel, good for WWDC ...

... Apple will probably announce right before, since SJ said long ago no hard announcements at WWDC.

Of course he reverses A LOT :eek:

ARE PREPARED for the NASTY NEWS THAT COULD COME AT ANY TIME :eek: :eek:


MS will announce that they are dropping Mac development :eek: :eek: :eek: :mad:


DON'T YOU GET IT ...

... this is the plan Bill G., the NICE GUY, leaves MS with his CLOD BULLDOG in charge AND YOU GET WHAT YOU GET, Balmer cuts the Mac devision and probably a TON of other jobs too and then they announce their MP3 player and all sorts of services !!!

This way their player looks more credible then Apple, for a while anyway !!

If Apple was smart after all they would have hired me to test their spreadsheet app a long time ago, I am after all, the SPREADSHEET GOD :cool:


Dude. One word.....Decaf. :rolleyes:

milo
Jul 27, 2006, 03:29 PM
Actually, the merom in not completely compatible with the yonah chips. There will have to be some redesign on Apple's part that is supposed to delay the new MBPs. This article somewhat explains it:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=249

I don't know that I buy that, especially considering they have no source, and people have already done merom swaps on shipping machines. If there is an issue, I'd guess it's only an issue in the soldered version.

As far as the 2nd optical slot goes, don't you think it's a pain to have only a single drive?

And especially when a second one probably adds less than $50-$75 to the system cost to the customer? (And extra profit potential for Apple?)

Not really. My last machine had two, and I rarely used both. I think most people in the market for two optical drives are probably going to want the full pro tower anyway, and there's not that much profit from the second slot since most people will add the drive themselves instead of from Apple.

MS will announce that they are dropping Mac development

But didn't MS sign a multiyear contract with apple committing to support?

I'm not sure why you're saying this price is way too low. The specs, so far as I can see, are quite similar to the current bottom-end iMac, which has an integrated screen, and it's price is only $300 more. It seems to me that this price is actually about right.

Also, I think that the name 'Mac' is a distinct possibility. Not saying I like it (or that I don't), or that it isn't simplistic, but I think that it's not unreasonable. FWIW, 'Mac Express' is nice, too, but I don't see Apple jumping on a name like that as quickly.

Maybe not way too low, but a bit low, especially when you compare specs to the $799 mini. The problem with MAC by itself as a name is that people will ask "what kind of mac" and the response is "Mac". It's a bad slapstick routine. It's like Ford selling a car called the Ford.

SPUY767
Jul 27, 2006, 03:38 PM
Sorry if i missed it, but at what speeds do these run? Don't they know just because they keep bumping and bumping the chip speed don't really mean they have a faster system. Seem just like yesterday when a better design was more important than a super fast chip. Oh well, everyone is buying into the Mhz myth now. Funny that just a year or so ago, Apple was trying to shoot down the Mhz myth, now they have people cheering for it. I guess power consumption is good though.


This is a positively thoughtless remark. No one's cheering the MHz myth on, in fact, Intel itself has abandoned the concept. Until the 3Ghz woodies get dropped in a MacPro, the 2.7 GHZ G5 will still be the fastest chip ever put in a Macintosh. I have a dual core Pentium D in a bastard Mac at the house, it runs at 3.8 GHz. I'm pretty sure that even it is slower in a lot of areas than these Core 2's. So no, you're absolutely wrong, the MHz myth is all but dead.

milo
Jul 27, 2006, 03:39 PM
It's always a little alarming when a post starts "sorry if I missed it but..."

This is a positively thoughtless remark. No one's cheering the MHz myth on, in fact, Intel itself has abandoned the concept. Until the 3Ghz woodies get dropped in a MacPro, the 2.7 GHZ G5 will still be the fastest chip ever put in a Macintosh. I have a dual core Pentium D in a bastard Mac at the house, it runs at 3.8 GHz. I'm pretty sure that even it is slower in a lot of areas than these Core 2's. So no, you're absolutely wrong, the MHz myth is all but dead.

The 2.7 G5 will be the highest clocked chip in a mac for a while, but probably not the fastest. In a number of benchmarks, Yonah has already beaten dual G5's, the conroes and woodrests will likely widen the gap even more.

bryanc
Jul 27, 2006, 03:46 PM
Well it's back to the future for all of us. Remember when the Mac was going 64-bit with the introduction of the G5 PowerMac on June 23, 2003? :rolleyes: Only more thanthree years later and we're doing it all over again thanks to Yonah's 7 month retrograde.

Just so long as Steve doesn't say we'll be at 3 GHz in a year. :eek:

Cheers

Fabio_gsilva
Jul 27, 2006, 03:47 PM
How about a new Mac at WWDC?

Lower Model:
CConroe E6300 - 1.86 GHz FSB1066 2 MB cache - ($185)
1GB RAM
160GB Serial ATA hard drive
Double-layer SuperDrive (DVD+R DL/DVDRW/CD-RW)
One open PCI-Express expansion slot
One open Optical drive slot [maybe] (i.e. for 2nd DVD drive)
Graphics Card with 128MB SDRAM
Built-in AirPort Extreme and Bluetooth 2.0, USB/FW800
Remote [(?] I think this box will still be small enough to fit into home entertainment setups.]
Keyboard, Mighty Mouse...................................................... $999

Some Options:
Conroe E6600 - 2.40 GHz FSB1066 4 MB cache (+$100)
Wireless Keyboard/Mouse +$60
Add DVD/CD ROM drive (in 2nd slot) + $50
250GB SATA hard drive +$75
+1GB RAM (2GB total) +$100
+3GB RAM (4GB total) +$300
Slightly Better Graphics Card with 256MB SDRAM + $50
Much Better Graphics Card +$200+

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/9648/macandmacminipx9.jpg

Very nice, indeed... (of course, i expect that Apple release something much more beautiful than waht you did :D :p :D)

voyagerd
Jul 27, 2006, 03:52 PM
Woot! I'm going to buy and ATI Radeon X850XT!

jholzner
Jul 27, 2006, 03:54 PM
Maybe not way too low, but a bit low, especially when you compare specs to the $799 mini. The problem with MAC by itself as a name is that people will ask "what kind of mac" and the response is "Mac". It's a bad slapstick routine. It's like Ford selling a car called the Ford.

Actually, it'd be like Ford selling a car named Model. Instead, they used to use Model-T etc. What model is it? It's a T model. What Mac is it? it's a mini...and i(Mac) etc.

Cowinacape
Jul 27, 2006, 03:56 PM
How about a new Mac at WWDC?

Lower Model:
CConroe E6300 - 1.86 GHz FSB1066 2 MB cache - ($185)
1GB RAM
160GB Serial ATA hard drive
Double-layer SuperDrive (DVD+R DL/DVDRW/CD-RW)
One open PCI-Express expansion slot
One open Optical drive slot [maybe] (i.e. for 2nd DVD drive)
Graphics Card with 128MB SDRAM
Built-in AirPort Extreme and Bluetooth 2.0, USB/FW800
Remote [(?] I think this box will still be small enough to fit into home entertainment setups.]
Keyboard, Mighty Mouse...................................................... $999

Some Options:
Conroe E6600 - 2.40 GHz FSB1066 4 MB cache (+$100)
Wireless Keyboard/Mouse +$60
Add DVD/CD ROM drive (in 2nd slot) + $50
250GB SATA hard drive +$75
+1GB RAM (2GB total) +$100
+3GB RAM (4GB total) +$300
Slightly Better Graphics Card with 256MB SDRAM + $50
Much Better Graphics Card +$200+

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/9648/macandmacminipx9.jpg

You da man Dan :D I'd definetly hit one of your super sized macminis. Now if Apple was to fit those specs in a regular iMac, would make for a great little machine.

shawnce
Jul 27, 2006, 03:57 PM
Still, they are the successors to conroe and woodcrest. As long as they are socket compatible, they're the next generation for these machines, whether you consider them a new chip or not.

They will not replace the dual core version, they will exist as an additional product offering.

Willis
Jul 27, 2006, 03:58 PM
It's always a little alarming when a post starts "sorry if I missed it but..."



The 2.7 G5 will be the highest clocked chip in a mac for a while, but probably not the fastest. In a number of benchmarks, Yonah has already beaten dual G5's, the conroes and woodrests will likely widen the gap even more.

true.... didnt the Macbook outrun a G5 in final cut studio or something?

Willis
Jul 27, 2006, 04:02 PM
Roz Ho? said at Macworld SF that Microsoft BU was commiting at least 5 more years of mac software.

they say they like the platform... go figure.

ADD: just a thought aswell. Wonder if we may see the next Office at WWDC?

SPUY767
Jul 27, 2006, 04:03 PM
It's always a little alarming when a post starts "sorry if I missed it but..."



The 2.7 G5 will be the highest clocked chip in a mac for a while, but probably not the fastest. In a number of benchmarks, Yonah has already beaten dual G5's, the conroes and woodrests will likely widen the gap even more.


I'm sorry. I thought that it was adequately implied that I meant the fastest chip, to date. Anyway, that's what I meant if I've been misunderstood.

Dan==
Jul 27, 2006, 04:06 PM
But its like ATI simply naming one of their chips ATI Radeon with no additional naming (being something like X1800 etc.). Why not something like Mac Plus, Mac Extra, Mac Express... I could go on.
Those are all fine.

Well, the Mac Plus is pretty slow these days. What was that - 8Mhz?

Too bad the Mac Mini wasn't named the Mac Nano. Then we could have named this one the Mac Mini.

milo
Jul 27, 2006, 04:07 PM
They will not replace the dual core version, they will exist as an additional product offering.

I never said otherwise. My point is they are the follow-ups to conroe and woodcrest and will use the same sockets as those two. Which means they can be swapped in, which I believe was the original question.

milo
Jul 27, 2006, 04:11 PM
I'm sorry. I thought that it was adequately implied that I meant the fastest chip, to date. Anyway, that's what I meant if I've been misunderstood.

I wasn't disagreeing with the "to date" part, just with the notion that a higher clock speed is the same as a faster chip.

The 2.7 G5 will continue to be the highest clocked chip in a mac to date. But chips with lower clock speeds will likely prove to be faster in benchmarks, meaning it's not the fastest chip.

shawnce
Jul 27, 2006, 04:11 PM
I never said otherwise.

You did say "successors" and "next generation" which I was pointing out they are not :D

shadowfax
Jul 27, 2006, 04:13 PM
Well it's back to the future for all of us. Remember when the Mac was going 64-bit with the introduction of the G5 PowerMac on June 23, 2003? :rolleyes: Only more thanthree years later and we're doing it all over again thanks to Yonah's 7 month retrograde.

This may be a bit of a disappointment, but I think that Merom is still in the "past:" merom is not a 64-bit chip. None of these Core 2's are. They just have EM64T (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EM64T), which allows them to address more than 4 GB of memory directly. These are not true 64-bit processors like the G5--that is, the Core 2 Duo won't work with 64-bit applications. The G5's Intel counterpart would, I think, bit the Itanium chip, based on intel's IA-64 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IA-64) Architecture, which is truly 64 bit in every way. Merom simply contains a 64-bit extension to the IA-32 (x86) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86_architecture#64-bit) architecture, which I understand is still a 32-bit architecture. We're not out of the woods yet...

shawnce
Jul 27, 2006, 04:19 PM
This may be a bit of a disappointment, but I think that Merom is still in the "past:" merom is not a 64-bit chip. None of these Core 2's are. They just have EM64T (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EM64T), which allows them to address more than 4 GB of memory directly. These are not true 64-bit processors like the G5--that is, the Core 2 Duo won't work with 64-bit applications.

You are incorrect. The Core 2 family of processors are 64 bit processors.... they support 64 bit integer math, they support load/store using 64 bit virtual addresses (also at least 40 bit of physical), sport 64 bit wide register file, they support the larger register set enabled by EM64T, etc.

They are 64 bit just like the G5 (PPC 970/FX/MP) is 64 bit (granted 64 bit support on PowerPC chips is a little more transparent).

The Itanium is a completely different type of ISA of which 64 bit support is only one feature.

milo
Jul 27, 2006, 04:20 PM
You did say "successors" and "next generation" which I was pointing out they are not :D

It seems like you're just quibbling over semantics. Webster defines "successor" as "one that follows" which is exactly what the quad core chips will be doing (and "next gen" seems to imply the same thing). Kentsfield and cloverton follow conroe and woodcrest, and use the same sockets respectively. People will upgrade, and top of the line computers for sale will switch to the new chips.

You don't seem to be disagreeing as much as quibbling with my word choice. What would you suggest as an alternative to "succcessor" to describe these future chips?

Multimedia
Jul 27, 2006, 04:22 PM
Actually, the merom in not completely compatible with the yonah chips. There will have to be some redesign on Apple's part that is supposed to delay the new MBPs. This article somewhat explains it:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=249

Also, since Apple is now kind of competeing with PCs who get the newest and fastest, it would be in Apple's best interest to get these chips in MBPs asap. Also, it is easy to see that a lot of people are waiting to purchase a new Apple laptop with this technology. MBP's current sales are going to slump from here on out until this technology is put into some new computers.Wow. Apple is going to abandon soldering the processor directly to the printed circuit board (PCB) and add a socket to the MBP PCB? If so they must redesign the case as well since it will have to be thicker. I do want a layout redesign so the HDs can be easily swapped out like they can in the MB. And why wouldn't Apple know this long ago and be ready with the next version? Waiting past September seems too long for the refresh. :eek:

shawnce
Jul 27, 2006, 04:29 PM
What would you suggest as an alternative to "successor" to describe these future chips?

The normally accepted definition of successor is one who replaces the one that came before it (as in succession).

The normally accepted definition of "next generation" in this field implies a new architecture (aka Core 2 to Core 3, or G4 to G5).

Kentfield and Clovertown are simply a different packaging of the Conroe and Woodcrest... putting multiple Conroe or Woodcrest chips into a multiple-chip module (MCM).

Not trying to quibble just make sure folks don't read things incorrectly.

Dan==
Jul 27, 2006, 04:53 PM
Very nice, indeed... (of course, i expect that Apple release something much more beautiful than waht you did :D :p :D)
Thanks, and yes, me too. I just hope they do something to fill that headless hole between the mini and pro. And I hope the innards are more accessible than the mini.

boncellis
Jul 27, 2006, 04:54 PM
Dan=='s mockup is something that I had considered before, I remember talking about it with Yvan 256 at some point as something like "the return of the Cube." I think it's a pretty good design, the guts of the Mini are so packed as it is, an expanded case would allow for a substantial upgrade in components, including the oft clamored for dedicated GPU.

Another way Apple could do it is just to elongate the Mini's case to make it just as svelte vertically, only slightly wider. Could you take a run at that one Dan==? ;)

eeboarder
Jul 27, 2006, 04:56 PM
This may be a bit of a disappointment, but I think that Merom is still in the "past:" merom is not a 64-bit chip. None of these Core 2's are. They just have EM64T (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EM64T), which allows them to address more than 4 GB of memory directly. These are not true 64-bit processors like the G5--that is, the Core 2 Duo won't work with 64-bit applications. The G5's Intel counterpart would, I think, bit the Itanium chip, based on intel's IA-64 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IA-64) Architecture, which is truly 64 bit in every way. Merom simply contains a 64-bit extension to the IA-32 (x86) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86_architecture#64-bit) architecture, which I understand is still a 32-bit architecture. We're not out of the woods yet...


Wow. I've very interested. Any sources? I was really looking forward to using 64-bit apps and possibly a stable os with the new meroms.

Dan==
Jul 27, 2006, 05:02 PM
Another way Apple could do it is just to elongate the Mini's case to make it just as svelte vertically, only slightly wider. Could you take a run at that one Dan==? ;)
I could take a stab to make a Mini double-wide :-). (Perhaps not til the weekend tho to make it pretty.)

It would work well in home entertainment setups, but not so much on the desktop, I think. I'd expect a deeper, rather than wider, chassis would be preferred.

-Dan

boncellis
Jul 27, 2006, 05:11 PM
I could take a stab to make a Mini double-wide :-). (Perhaps not til the weekend tho to make it pretty.)

It would work well in home entertainment setups, but not so much on the desktop, I think. I'd expect a deeper, rather than wider, chassis would be preferred.

-Dan

That's exactly what I was thinking, it would fit in with other home audio/video components--or in my case, replace them. I've played around with it, but I obviously don't have the skills that you do. ;)

One thing that crossed my mind the other day is back in the days of my 486, I remember reading about Digital's alpha 64 bit processor and some software that was available to take advantage of the 64 bit architecture. One of the applications was MS Word, which makes me wonder--how long will it be before basic 3P applications like Office take advantage of 64 bit processors?

Dan==
Jul 27, 2006, 05:37 PM
Another way Apple could do it is just to elongate the Mini's case to make it just as svelte vertically, only slightly wider. Could you take a run at that one Dan==?

[...]

That's exactly what I was thinking, it would fit in with other home audio/video components--or in my case, replace them. I've played around with it, but I obviously don't have the skills that you do. ;)

Ok, here goes. (Quick pass)
http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/3350/macminidblwidepk4.jpg
Eeek. Not so sure I like that.

Hmmm... maybe with just one slot?
http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/4436/macminidblwideunislotvr9.jpg

A little better. I personally prefer the taller narrower one, though.

gnasher729
Jul 27, 2006, 05:37 PM
This is a positively thoughtless remark. No one's cheering the MHz myth on, in fact, Intel itself has abandoned the concept. Until the 3Ghz woodies get dropped in a MacPro, the 2.7 GHZ G5 will still be the fastest chip ever put in a Macintosh.

Assuming that you are talking about clock speed, there have been Macs running at over 3 GHz, just not for sale to the public. The Intel machines that were shipped to developers after WWDC 2005 had 3.4 GHz Pentium IVs.

WildPalms
Jul 27, 2006, 05:50 PM
Yay! Chips that don't suck and are fast! (I hate P4s)

Ironic, isnt it? Core Duo's are based on Pentium 3 architecture.

Very, very true. You usually only get half the things you expect... the real gem is when you get something you didn't expect.


Get a golden cats eye and who cares about the rest! ;);)

gnasher729
Jul 27, 2006, 05:59 PM
but is still more productive because it handles more calculations per clock cycle

I'm no processor geek. I have a basic understanding of the terminology and how things work so correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this one of the advantages that the PPC had over Intel chips? Does this mean Intel is moving toward shorter pipes? Are we talking more instructions per clock cycle or what? What does "calculations" mean in this context?

With most processors, especially the Intel/AMD processors, "instructions per cycle" is not a useful number. These processors have both simple instructions (add register number 3 to register number 6) and complex instructions (add register number 3 to the number whose address is in register number 6). A PowerPC has the simple instructions, but not the complex ones. Instead it would need three instructions "load the number whose address is in register number 6, and move it to register 7", "add register 3 to register 7", "store register 7 to the location whose address is in register 6". But the Intel processor doesn't magically do three times as much work. Instead, it splits the complex instruction into three so-called "macro-ops", and does exactly the same work. So in this case, the PowerPC would execute three times as many instructions per cycle (3 instead of 1), but because it doesn't do more actual work, that is pointless. Instead you would count the number of operations, and they are more or less the same.

Intel is indeed moving towards shorter pipelines. They have done that already with the Core Duo chips. Longer pipelines have the advantage that each pipeline step is a bit faster, so you can get higher clockspeed. Shorter pipelines have the advantage that they take much less energy (very important; at some point your chips just melt), they are much faster handling branches, and they are just much much easier to design. Pentium 4 needed absolutely heroic efforts to produce it, and would have needed twice the heroics to improve it. Instead, the Core Duo has a much simpler design, that is just as powerful, and because it was so simple, Core 2 Duo could improve it.

And Core 2 Duo can now execute up to four "micro-ops" per cycle, same as the G5, compared to three for Core Duo, Pentium 4 and G4. It also has some clever features that reduce the number of micro-ops needed up to 10 percent, and some other improvements.

milozauckerman
Jul 27, 2006, 06:49 PM
looking at reference systems - for $2049, Gateway's Core 2 Duo gets the 2.4GHz/4MB L2 cache Conroe, 2GB of RAM from the factory, an x1900 512MB graphics card, 320GB hard drive, card reader and DL DVD burner.

Apple had better step its game up compared to the prices/specs rumored last week. A weak graphics card and 512MB of RAM aren't going to cut it in the low tower, even if it does have XEON INSIDE or whatever the marketing pitch will be to distract us.

EDIT: Dell would be even cheaper, with a lesser video card, but there doesn't seem to be a way to separate the XPS 410 from the included 20in monitor as of now.

MrCrowbar
Jul 27, 2006, 06:50 PM
Ok, here goes. (Quick pass)
http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/3350/macminidblwidepk4.jpg
Eeek. Not so sure I like that.

Hmmm... maybe with just one slot?
http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/4436/macminidblwideunislotvr9.jpg

A little better. I personally prefer the taller narrower one, though.

Actually I like the one with 2 slots. Perfect for all those people wanting 2 drives. :-)

shawnce
Jul 27, 2006, 07:04 PM
looking at reference systems - for $2049, Gateway's Core 2 Duo gets the 2.4GHz/4MB L2 cache Conroe, 2GB of RAM from the factory, an x1900 512MB graphics card, 320GB hard drive, card reader and DL DVD burner.

make sure to note that is an ATI X1900 CrossFire XT adapter

ppnkg
Jul 27, 2006, 07:07 PM
With those frequent speed bumps I begin to worry that my G5 imac will not be fast enough to run Leopard...

eeboarder
Jul 27, 2006, 07:44 PM
With those frequent speed bumps I begin to worry that my G5 imac will not be fast enough to run Leopard...

It absolutely will!!! Leopard is just going to be mostly beneficial for dual-core machines. Read this article:

http://macosrumors.com/20060710A1.php

Leopard sounds FAST!

Fabio_gsilva
Jul 27, 2006, 07:55 PM
http://www.alienware.com/product_detail_Pages/area-51_alx/area-51_overview.aspx?SysCode=PC-AREA51-ALX-R5&SubCode=SKU-DEFAULT

Man, alienware is ready to ship new Area 51 ALX PC wuth Core 2 duo Extreme processors. This must be huge!!!

I'd love to see one in real life...

Thataboy
Jul 27, 2006, 07:59 PM
It absolutely will!!! Leopard is just going to be mostly beneficial for dual-core machines. Read this article:

http://macosrumors.com/20060710A1.php

Leopard sounds FAST!

You didn't really just link to MOSR, did you? :p

Anyway, I have the sneaking suspicion that we will see Core 2 Duo/Extreme-related computer announcements next week, and not at WWDC. WWDC will get major coverage anyway because of Leopard (which could easily take up the whole keynote). So why not spread the Apple press over 2 weeks?

Moreover, everyone announced new computers today. Apple might have wanted to avoid the first-day glut of releases, but they might not want to wait almost 2 full weeks to announce a Mac Pro.

My wild guess is Mac Daddy Extreme and/or iMaconroe on Tuesday with near-immediate availability, and announcement of MeromBook Pro at WWDC with early September availability.

meanmusic
Jul 27, 2006, 09:32 PM
You didn't really just link to MOSR, did you? :p

Anyway, I have the sneaking suspicion that we will see Core 2 Duo/Extreme-related computer announcements next week, and not at WWDC. WWDC will get major coverage anyway because of Leopard (which could easily take up the whole keynote). So why not spread the Apple press over 2 weeks?

Moreover, everyone announced new computers today. Apple might have wanted to avoid the first-day glut of releases, but they might not want to wait almost 2 full weeks to announce a Mac Pro.

My wild guess is Mac Daddy Extreme and/or iMaconroe on Tuesday with near-immediate availability, and announcement of MeromBook Pro at WWDC with early September availability.

I'm hoping for Merom news at WWDC but Fujitsu announced Merom laptops that will only be available sometime in Q4 I hope the same isn't true for the MBP.

http://www.engadget.com/2006/07/27/fujitsu-to-add-core-2-duo-options-to-lifebook-n6400-series/

greenstork
Jul 27, 2006, 09:45 PM
but is still more productive because it handles more calculations per clock cycle

I'm no processor geek. I have a basic understanding of the terminology and how things work so correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this one of the advantages that the PPC had over Intel chips? Does this mean Intel is moving toward shorter pipes? Are we talking more instructions per clock cycle or what? What does "calculations" mean in this context?

This was one of the advantages of the G5 but IBM stalled and Intel has essentially blown past everybody. AMD will answer no doubt, but it appears that Intel has about a 6 month jump on them.

ezekielrage_99
Jul 27, 2006, 10:04 PM
This was one of the advantages of the G5 but IBM stalled and Intel has essentially blown past everybody. AMD will answer no doubt, but it appears that Intel has about a 6 month jump on them.

AMD has it's hands full with an ATi take over which gives Intel the chance to get a bit a head on the Processor game. Either way it's good Intel has some real competition it means faster cheaper chips.:cool:

sam10685
Jul 27, 2006, 10:14 PM
(I hate P4s)

you can't make a statement like that. that's like saying "i hate general electric air conditioners." what the heck? all CPU's (and air conditioners) do the same thing.

Kane.Elson
Jul 27, 2006, 10:21 PM
Ahh so many announcments !!! Kill me now !

I'm waiting for the end of august then I'm buying whatever I can get.

dicklacara
Jul 27, 2006, 10:27 PM
The next gen of chips has 4 core versions of conroe and woodcrest, each with the same sockets as the ones they're replacing. Not sure if there will be a 4 core merom.



Pretty cool, but it needs a real name, MAC won't cut it. Maybe Mac Express?

And it wouldn't have FW800 or a second optical slot. Probably a second HD slot instead. And I'd guess it would be more of a pizza box enclosure, but that's wild speculation. Your price is probably way too low, too.


How about Mac Midi?

peeInMyPantz
Jul 27, 2006, 10:40 PM
if merom produces less heat.. i would think that apple will quickly update both MB and MBP so it won't be releasing anymore problematic notebooks

borisadmin
Jul 27, 2006, 10:52 PM
You are incorrect. The Core 2 family of processors are 64 bit processors.... they support 64 bit integer math, they support load/store using 64 bit virtual addresses (also at least 40 bit of physical), sport 64 bit wide register file, they support the larger register set enabled by EM64T, etc.


Could Shadowfax or Shawnce or someone else who knows describe a little more about the implications of the upgrade from Yonah to Merom? I'm trying to decide whether to get a Macbook or wait, I'm not that worried about the minor speed boost, but I am more concerned about longer term compatibility (say with mac OS or Windows). If there's going to be a point in a couple of years where the difference between Yonah and Merom is the difference between running the latest version of the OS or not, then I might wait. But if it's only speed and heat, I'll probably go for the Yonah (after WWDC) and live with not having the speed and lower heat that the upgrade brings.

twoodcc
Jul 27, 2006, 10:59 PM
Could Shadowfax or Shawnce or someone else who knows describe a little more about the implications of the upgrade from Yonah to Merom? I'm trying to decide whether to get a Macbook or wait, I'm not that worried about the minor speed boost, but I am more concerned about longer term compatibility (say with mac OS or Windows). If there's going to be a point in a couple of years where the difference between Yonah and Merom is the difference between running the latest version of the OS or not, then I might wait. But if it's only speed and heat, I'll probably go for the Yonah (after WWDC) and live with not having the speed and lower heat that the upgrade brings.

i want to know the exact same thing

Chuck
Jul 27, 2006, 11:08 PM
So if the new iMacs are using 64-bit merom or conroe chips, what is the likelihood of them offering 4Mb of RAM?

And if they did, is the RAM likely to cost any more than it does for the current iMacs, due to the no of slots?

Chuck.

Multimedia
Jul 27, 2006, 11:26 PM
if merom produces less heat.. i would think that apple will quickly update both MB and MBP so it won't be releasing anymore problematic notebooksYes your logic is impecible. But Apple does not act on logic. They are in it for the money. :D

Multimedia
Jul 27, 2006, 11:38 PM
So if the new iMacs are using 64-bit merom or conroe chips, what is the likelihood of them offering 4Mb of RAM?

And if they did, is the RAM likely to cost any more than it does for the current iMacs, due to the no of slots?I think you mean 4GB of RAM. The likelyhood of Apple offering it is ZERO. If they did, it would be offered for two to three times what you could buy it from a third party.

2GB sticks are still too expensive. See the G5 Quad prices for 2GB sticks:

Non ECC is $4700 for 8 sticks $587.50 each or $1175 per pair

ECC is $10,300 for 8 sticks or $1287.50 each or $2575 per pair

These prices are not in the class that an iMac buyer would want to consider paying.

Multimedia
Jul 27, 2006, 11:48 PM
Duplicate.

Multimedia
Jul 27, 2006, 11:48 PM
Ahh so many announcments !!! Kill me now ! I'm waiting for the end of august then I'm buying whatever I can get.You might want to make that til Tuesday September 12 when the Paris Apple Expo opens with an Apple keynote.

"Otellini said the company expects to ship its 1 millionth Core 2 Duo processor in a little less than seven weeks after launch. In comparison, it took Pentium a year to reach that level of ramp-up. (http://www.macworld.com/news/2006/07/27/core2duo/index.php)"

Two million cores shipped by this time in September. Wow!

fastlane1588
Jul 27, 2006, 11:52 PM
so everyone keeps saying wwdc for all of the hardware releases....well seeing as how apple enjoys releasing stuff on tuesdays there happens to be a tuesday before wwdc. what if they just either quitely released everything or anounced everything that tuesday. that way they arent slow about releasing, and everyone will be set for when they talk about leopard and all the cool apps that they can run on their new machines,

this way they can also keep the focus of wwdc on the software instead of trying to squeeze new releases and software demos and all into one event......just a thought

Ensoniq
Jul 28, 2006, 12:12 AM
Just to clarify a few things...

Merom does NOT use less power than Yonah. The cause of confusion about this is that Merom DOES use less power than the Pentium M. And Conroe uses less power than the Pentium D and Pentium 4. And Woodcrest uses less power than the previous Xeon chips. So people are confusing the latter as a misrepresentation of the former.

Merom uses the same amount of power essentially per MHz as Yonah. However, it is 20% more efficient than Yonah is. So while putting Merom into any of the current machines will NOT make them cooler or use less power than the Yonah versions, they will all:

1 - Be approximately 20% faster at the same MHz rating.
2 - Have 64-bit capability.
3 - Have enhanced SSE (closer to AltiVec than previous Intel chips.)

Some of the Merom chips also have twice the L2 cache (4 MB vs. 2 MB) which would also increase speeds, but the other items above are more important in the grand scheme of things.

peeInMyPantz
Jul 28, 2006, 12:50 AM
I'm hoping for Merom news at WWDC but Fujitsu announced Merom laptops that will only be available sometime in Q4 I hope the same isn't true for the MBP.

http://www.engadget.com/2006/07/27/fujitsu-to-add-core-2-duo-options-to-lifebook-n6400-series/
at least they made an announcement.

do you think apple will try to release core 2 duo notebooks as soon as possible, before Leopard? so that once Leopard is released, more users have to buy it separately. the longer the wait, chances are there are less users that will switch from their current MBP to the new MBP knowing that Leopard's release date is soon.

damienvfx
Jul 28, 2006, 03:01 AM
I am waiting until the new MBP is released with merom. I don't care if it's now or in January.

My question is: What's the fastest way to get the new MBP into my hands? Is ordering it online after it's announcement the fastest, or going to an apple store?

I live within 3 stores. So I can play the call and place one on hold bit.

glassbathroom
Jul 28, 2006, 03:18 AM
It absolutely will!!! Leopard is just going to be mostly beneficial for dual-core machines. Read this article:

http://macosrumors.com/20060710A1.php

Leopard sounds FAST!

MOSR is always good for a laugh, but don't be fooled into believing any of it.

glassbathroom
Jul 28, 2006, 03:21 AM
Ok, here goes. (Quick pass)
http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/3350/macminidblwidepk4.jpg
Eeek. Not so sure I like that.

Hmmm... maybe with just one slot?
http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/4436/macminidblwideunislotvr9.jpg

A little better. I personally prefer the taller narrower one, though.

Big is the new small.

Kane.Elson
Jul 28, 2006, 03:57 AM
You might want to make that til Tuesday September 12 when the Paris Apple Expo opens with an Apple keynote.

Yeah, I meant around that time. I'm not going to order it on midnight august 31st :P
It's just painfull thinking about all the goodies coming out soon.

Lollypop
Jul 28, 2006, 04:07 AM
I would really like to se a mid range mac, not really fond of the illustrations above but the extra expansion of the pro line would be apreciated but at a more affordable price. I use a few older powermacs for servers but I really would like something with a bit more processing power... :D and something with a bit more longevity, something like a nice new Core 2 Duo Extreme! LOL

inkswamp
Jul 28, 2006, 04:34 AM
gnasher729, thanks for taking the time to explain that. I had to read it twice, but I get it.

So it seems that in many ways we're getting the best of the G5 and the best of Intel with the Core 2 Duo chips. As these kinds of things unfold, Apple's decision to switch to Intel chips makes more and more sense. They probably knew where Intel was going. Interesting.

borisadmin
Jul 28, 2006, 05:11 AM
Just to clarify a few things...
Merom uses the same amount of power essentially per MHz as Yonah. However, it is 20% more efficient than Yonah is. So while putting Merom into any of the current machines will NOT make them cooler or use less power than the Yonah versions, they will all:

1 - Be approximately 20% faster at the same MHz rating.
2 - Have 64-bit capability.
3 - Have enhanced SSE (closer to AltiVec than previous Intel chips.)

Some of the Merom chips also have twice the L2 cache (4 MB vs. 2 MB) which would also increase speeds, but the other items above are more important in the grand scheme of things.

Ensoniq, thanks so much for the useful corrections. How significant do you think that 64-bit capability will be in the future compared to not having it(say, 2-3 years time)?

TangoCharlie
Jul 28, 2006, 05:16 AM
Can I swop the Merom with the Yonah in my MB?
No. Not unless you're extremely handy with a soldering iron!

TangoCharlie
Jul 28, 2006, 05:17 AM
Ensoniq, thanks so much for the useful corrections. How significant do you think that 64-bit capability will be in the future compared to not having it(say, 2-3 years time)?
AFAIK, the Merom CPUs have an improved SpeedStep technology, so that
on average the heat generation may infact be lower for Merom.

rosalindavenue
Jul 28, 2006, 06:11 AM
I am waiting until the new MBP is released with merom. I don't care if it's now or in January.

My question is: What's the fastest way to get the new MBP into my hands? Is ordering it online after it's announcement the fastest, or going to an apple store?

I live within 3 stores. So I can play the call and place one on hold bit.

I'd think you would have a better chance to get one fast with the stores. I don't live near one and I ordered an ibook last August when it was upgraded-- even with expedited shipping it still took 10 days to arrive from China. (Apple refunded the expedited shipping fee).

Willis
Jul 28, 2006, 06:11 AM
gnasher729, thanks for taking the time to explain that. I had to read it twice, but I get it.

So it seems that in many ways we're getting the best of the G5 and the best of Intel with the Core 2 Duo chips. As these kinds of things unfold, Apple's decision to switch to Intel chips makes more and more sense. They probably knew where Intel was going. Interesting.

*sigh* REMEMBER! Apple said they were changing in June 06 at the last WWDC. Even though Intel are just annoucing now, im sure if apple was waiting, they might of 'bumped' it up a notch.

Ah well, at least we have some good products now. i cant imagine still looking at a powerbook and ibook still for sale.

gnasher729
Jul 28, 2006, 06:27 AM
Ensoniq, thanks so much for the useful corrections. How significant do you think that 64-bit capability will be in the future compared to not having it(say, 2-3 years time)?

64 bit is required for applications that need more than four GB of memory. For other things, it is nice to have, but not required. If you buy a MacBook today, you wouldn't be able to put more than 4 GB of memory in it for the next few years anyway, so in that respect it doesn't matter much whether you have a Yonah or Merom chip. For everything else, 64 bit software might run a bit faster than 32 bit software on a 64 bit chip, but it is not essential. So I think applications will ship as 32 bit or as combined 32/64 bit applications for quite some time.

The question for the developers would be: If I switch to 64 bit exclusively, so my code runs ten percent faster on Core 2 Duo, but 1-2 million Macintosh users cannot use it at all, how many sales will I gain because it is faster, and how many sales will I lose because 2 million people cannot use it? Three years from now, the answer will still be that you lose more sales running 64 bit only.

gnasher729
Jul 28, 2006, 06:32 AM
AFAIK, the Merom CPUs have an improved SpeedStep technology, so that
on average the heat generation may infact be lower for Merom.

Do you have any links that describe Merom's SpeedStep compared to Yonah's? I thought Yonah's was quite good, allowing you to reduce both clock speed and voltage simultaneously. It is always a problem with Intel, they say "improved SpeedStep", but they never tell you "improved compared to what".

berkleeboy210
Jul 28, 2006, 07:43 AM
Looking forward to WWDC! Unfortunately I'll be returning home on a plane while the Keynote is going on.

At MacWorld when Steve announced the MacBook Pro's I literally fell off a chair. Here's hoping that the Plane won't do the same thing if the Pilot's are Mac Nuts! :D

borisadmin
Jul 28, 2006, 08:00 AM
The question for the developers would be: If I switch to 64 bit exclusively, so my code runs ten percent faster on Core 2 Duo, but 1-2 million Macintosh users cannot use it at all, how many sales will I gain because it is faster, and how many sales will I lose because 2 million people cannot use it? Three years from now, the answer will still be that you lose more sales running 64 bit only.

Thanks heaps gnasher729, that's exactly the kind of perspective I was looking for! I'll wait until WWDC to see if there's a bump, but I need to upgrade my PB G4 12" because the optical drive has broken, so I think I'll get a Macbook then regardless.

milo
Jul 28, 2006, 09:37 AM
Apple had better step its game up compared to the prices/specs rumored last week.

That list was probably something some random guy threw together, it didn't come from a real source and AI only posted it because it's been floating around (saying they didn't believe it).

Actually I like the one with 2 slots. Perfect for all those people wanting 2 drives. :-)

But it would make way more sense to lose the "slot" and go with a standard tray loading drive. It's very impractical to give users the ability to add an optical drive...but require it to be a laptop model.

you can't make a statement like that. that's like saying "i hate general electric air conditioners." what the heck? all CPU's (and air conditioners) do the same thing.

You don't think there's a significant difference between different models of CPU? :eek:

How about Mac Midi?

I've thought about Mac Mid, but just doesn't seem quite right. Mac Midi is funny, but would confuse music guys (unless it actually had midi ports).

So if the new iMacs are using 64-bit merom or conroe chips, what is the likelihood of them offering 4Mb of RAM?

Current macs can handle 4 gigs of ram, if you get the expensive 2 gig chips. 32 bit limits you to 4 gig, doubt iMacs will handle more than that for a while.

Snowy_River
Jul 28, 2006, 10:51 AM
You da man Dan :D I'd definetly hit one of your super sized macminis. Now if Apple was to fit those specs in a regular iMac, would make for a great little machine.

Hey, how about the Mac Grande? Or Mac Venti?

Grokgod
Jul 28, 2006, 10:58 AM
What I am really interesting is in wether the new chip will be COOLER in the MBP's than whats in it now.

Anyone have any specs as to compare the two chips and the heat that they produce in the MBP's.

These things have got to get cooler!

Or at least a plastic something to cover the ALU so that you can type on them>

Does the pCheese world have this problem with HOT! palm rest?

They never seem to over at FRys electronics

Multimedia
Jul 28, 2006, 12:02 PM
What I am really interesting is in wether the new chip will be COOLER in the MBP's than whats in it now.

Anyone have any specs as to compare the two chips and the heat that they produce in the MBP's.

These things have got to get cooler!

Or at least a plastic something to cover the ALU so that you can type on them>

Does the pCheese world have this problem with HOT! palm rest?

They never seem to over at FRys electronicsUnknown 'til we see how the new design performs. Merom draws the same power as Yonah so on paper it is not cooler but is 20% faster at computing at the same clock speed. MBP need redesigns to get cooler and to allow user easy swap of the HDs. ;)

Soba
Jul 28, 2006, 01:02 PM
you can't make a statement like that. that's like saying "i hate general electric air conditioners." what the heck? all CPU's (and air conditioners) do the same thing.

I'm not sure if this was intended as some kind of throwaway comment or not, but this is not even remotely true.

The original poster said he hated the P4, and honestly, the P4 was a lousy chip design from day 1. The original Pentium 4 chips released about 5 1/2 years ago were outperformed in some instances by an original Pentium chip running at 166MHz. The Pentium 4 was an awful architecture in many respects that simply could not be cleaned up enough to be viable; that would be why Intel abandoned it and based its current designs on the Pentium Pro's core (which was really a very decent server chip in the nineties).

When Apple announced last year they were going with Intel, a lot of people agreed it was a good choice based on the current state of the PowerPC architecture and based on Intel's planned chip designs. Personally, I was a bit unsure at the time, but was optimistic about the switch and figured we could scarcely do much worse than sticking with the G5, which was languishing. Turning back the clock a bit, if instead of releasing the G5, Apple had announced a switch to Intel in 2003, I would have thought they were crazy. Intel's chips were awful at that time and there wasn't much of a light at the end of the tunnel, either.

CPUs can be very, very different even if the overall system architecture is similar. And I side with the original poster. The P4 was a dog, and thankfully it is about to be buried forever.

ed233
Jul 28, 2006, 02:02 PM
Do you have any links that describe Merom's SpeedStep compared to Yonah's? I thought Yonah's was quite good, allowing you to reduce both clock speed and voltage simultaneously. It is always a problem with Intel, they say "improved SpeedStep", but they never tell you "improved compared to what".
I was able to find this about Conroe's implementation, which sounds fairly impressive:
http://www.sharkyextreme.com/hardware/cpu/article.php/3620036

The Conroe core includes support for Intel SpeedStep technology, and in an attempt to lower power and heat requirements, it emulates a mobile processor by lowering the multiplier when idle or in low usage. In the case of the Core 2 Extreme and Duo processors we reviewed, that amounted to a 1.6 GHz clock speed at idle. The Conroe can immediately fire up at full speed and match the system load. Core voltages can also be lowered through similar techniques, such as Intelligent Power Capability, which can turn computing functions on and off when needed, in order to fully maximize power efficiency.

merk850
Jul 28, 2006, 03:01 PM
I am a new Mac owner. I just bought my new 20 " iMac and I am learing aout the upcomming conference and possible new product releases. I
Would appreciate any thoughts on my question.

I am considering returning the new 20" I just bought in the 14 day period and taking the 10% hit and waitning to see if the iMac gets updated and I will repurchase. What is the likelyhood that the version I have will be updated. I would be bummed if I just bought it and I am at the end of a cycle. The $160 fee would actuallly be worth it to me to get thte latest. I would have to return it prior to the conference to stay within the 14 days but i may not want to loose out on lthe chance to get the latest.

Any thoughts on this 20 " model be increased with a new processor??

Thanks,

New Mac owner.....

Snowy_River
Jul 28, 2006, 03:26 PM
Dan=='s mockup is something that I had considered before, I remember talking about it with Yvan 256 at some point as something like "the return of the Cube." I think it's a pretty good design, the guts of the Mini are so packed as it is, an expanded case would allow for a substantial upgrade in components, including the oft clamored for dedicated GPU.

Another way Apple could do it is just to elongate the Mini's case to make it just as svelte vertically, only slightly wider. Could you take a run at that one Dan==? ;)

Okay, I did some tinkering myself, just for kicks, and here's what I came up with. I thought that we were talking about a computer that was somewhere between a Mac Mini and a Mac Pro (Power Mac), so I thought, maybe the style should be a combination of the two. Let me know what you think.

It's not a Mac Plus... It's a Mac++!

http://www.ghwphoto.com/Mac++1.PNGhttp://www.ghwphoto.com/Mac++2.PNG

Grokgod
Jul 28, 2006, 03:36 PM
merk850

dont take it back.

I dont think that the difference will be that much, with the new systems.

If your happy with its performance then keep it.
A mild CPU boost isnt all that, and I doubt that the video cards will be upped that much.

I wouldnt take the hit in money lost, cause you can always sell it later down the line and get the lastest and greatest thats really a must buy.

fastlane1588
Jul 28, 2006, 03:43 PM
Okay, I did some tinkering myself, just for kicks, and here's what I came up with. I thought that we were talking about a computer that was somewhere between a Mac Mini and a Mac Pro (Power Mac), so I thought, maybe the style should be a combination of the two. Let me know what you think.

It's not a Mac Plus... It's a Mac++!

http://www.ghwphoto.com/Mac++1.PNGhttp://www.ghwphoto.com/Mac++2.PNG
thats pretty nice what did u use to make that?

Willis
Jul 28, 2006, 04:27 PM
Okay, I did some tinkering myself, just for kicks, and here's what I came up with. I thought that we were talking about a computer that was somewhere between a Mac Mini and a Mac Pro (Power Mac), so I thought, maybe the style should be a combination of the two. Let me know what you think.

It's not a Mac Plus... It's a Mac++!

http://www.ghwphoto.com/Mac++1.PNGhttp://www.ghwphoto.com/Mac++2.PNG

can you say "G4 Cube"?

Fabio_gsilva
Jul 28, 2006, 04:52 PM
Thanks, and yes, me too. I just hope they do something to fill that headless hole between the mini and pro. And I hope the innards are more accessible than the mini.

A headless iMac would be very nice to mee, indeed. I own a Mini, so I don't want to throw my keyboard, mouse and display right now... And I don't have enough money to replace them now too.

Multimedia
Jul 28, 2006, 04:57 PM
I am a new Mac owner. I just bought my new 20 " iMac and I am learing aout the upcomming conference and possible new product releases. I
Would appreciate any thoughts on my question.

I am considering returning the new 20" I just bought in the 14 day period and taking the 10% hit and waitning to see if the iMac gets updated and I will repurchase. What is the likelyhood that the version I have will be updated. I would be bummed if I just bought it and I am at the end of a cycle. The $160 fee would actuallly be worth it to me to get thte latest. I would have to return it prior to the conference to stay within the 14 days but i may not want to loose out on lthe chance to get the latest.

Any thoughts on this 20 " model be increased with a new processor??

Thanks,

New Mac owner.....merk850

dont take it back.

I dont think that the difference will be that much, with the new systems.

If your happy with its performance then keep it.
A mild CPU boost isnt all that, and I doubt that the video cards will be upped that much.

I wouldnt take the hit in money lost, cause you can always sell it later down the line and get the lastest and greatest thats really a must buy.I respectfully disagree. I say take it back and be ready for a much faster iMac Core 2 Duo. You want the latest, take it back. It won't be the latest for many more weeks. Core 2 Duo will be the latest for two more years.

Multimedia
Jul 28, 2006, 05:07 PM
Okay, I did some tinkering myself, just for kicks, and here's what I came up with. I thought that we were talking about a computer that was somewhere between a Mac Mini and a Mac Pro (Power Mac), so I thought, maybe the style should be a combination of the two. Let me know what you think.

It's not a Mac Plus... It's a Mac++!

http://www.ghwphoto.com/Mac++1.PNGhttp://www.ghwphoto.com/Mac++2.PNGThat looks stunningly beautiful. wish there were 3 or 4 card slots though.

merk850
Jul 28, 2006, 05:23 PM
I respectfully disagree. I say take it back and be ready for a much faster iMac Core 2 Duo. You want the latest, take it back. It won't be the latest for many more weeks. Core 2 Duo will be the latest for two more years.

I appreciate the thoughts on my quandry whether or not to return my 20 " iMac and purchase after the WWDC. Of course my decision is not any easier with one vote for and one vote against.

Thanks Grokgod and Multimedia for the thoughts...

Snowy_River
Jul 28, 2006, 05:34 PM
I appreciate the thoughts on my quandry whether or not to return my 20 " iMac and purchase after the WWDC. Of course my decision is not any easier with one vote for and one vote against.

Thanks Grokgod and Multimedia for the thoughts...

I'll chime in and try to help alleviate your quandary. I would take it back. You've got a narrow window of opportunity to take it back, and we're just a few days away from an event that will likely harold the release of a new iMac. Even if you wanted to keep this model, if you take it back and then buy it after the release of the new one, you'll likely be able to get it at a fairly discounted price. So, that's what you have to weigh against having a computer to play with for the next couple of weeks...

Snowy_River
Jul 28, 2006, 05:37 PM
That looks stunningly beautiful. wish there were 3 or 4 card slots though.

Well, I was trying to hit the mid-point. The PM has four, and the Mini has none, so I put in two. If I had put in a third one, I would have had to make it taller.

(Of course, I realize that both the two and the four aren't quite accurate, as the PM has one slot taken up by the video card, so it's really three, as does my M++ so it's really only got one. But a strong argument can be made that people who need more than one expansion slot should really get a full sized system...)

Willis
Jul 28, 2006, 05:46 PM
I appreciate the thoughts on my quandry whether or not to return my 20 " iMac and purchase after the WWDC. Of course my decision is not any easier with one vote for and one vote against.

Thanks Grokgod and Multimedia for the thoughts...

bare in mind that iMacs might not even get updated at wwdc. it could be at the paris expo.

go with what you feel suits you best.

Grokgod
Jul 28, 2006, 05:49 PM
I certainly agree that the Core duo will be the lastest, latest.

yet what about it will be so valuable to the user, that has jsut purchased one.
That he should return her new unit.

Does it bake cookies, ? no.
Produce less heat? no , it wont really. and if it does it will be small differences in possible either direction. Cooler or hotter.

So, I see the only real difference with CPU changes as being limited to a small boost in hertz. Minor at best.

In the iMac realm there will be little other changes, most are limited to the Macpro area etc.

And returning it will cost time and effort waiting for the next iMac which may not appear for some time.

Multimedia
Jul 28, 2006, 06:00 PM
I'll chime in and try to help alleviate your quandary. I would take it back. You've got a narrow window of opportunity to take it back, and we're just a few days away from an event that will likely harold the release of a new iMac. Even if you wanted to keep this model, if you take it back and then buy it after the release of the new one, you'll likely be able to get it at a fairly discounted price. So, that's what you have to weigh against having a computer to play with for the next couple of weeks...Point. You will be able to repurchase as refurbished - which you could have done already BTW - for the same as what you will get back. Refurbished is same as new with new warranty but lower price. Core 2 Duo iMac may be an entirely new design. It's not necessarily going to be just a tweak. I wouldn't risk keeping the one you bought.

We're not saying it will be out after WWDC. We're saying it is DUE by September.

Grokgod
Jul 28, 2006, 06:52 PM
Well we all know how Apple works with when things are due.

Look at the G5 laptop.

Tweak or no tweak, the return will cost money and getting a refurbished is not getting a new one.

CounterPoint: If he is just going to take it back to buy a refurbished one, why take it back.
He allready has it! Thats a roundabout way to work, isnt it?

If you take it back, you wait for the new one, why spend the money for restocking and not get the new one?

The question remains, what are you going to get with a new iMac that you dont have now?

If you were going to get a MacPro, then I would say, my god, return that iMac and get a new MacPro, if not then keep what you got and use it for the next 2 months and enjoy it,, cheers!

merk850
Jul 28, 2006, 07:41 PM
Well we all know how Apple works with when things are due.

Look at the G5 laptop.

Tweak or no tweak, the return will cost money and getting a refurbished is not getting a new one.

CounterPoint: If he is just going to take it back to buy a refurbished one, why take it back.
He allready has it! Thats a roundabout way to work, isnt it?

If you take it back, you wait for the new one, why spend the money for restocking and not get the new one?

The question remains, what are you going to get with a new iMac that you dont have now?

If you were going to get a MacPro, then I would say, my god, return that iMac and get a new MacPro, if not then keep what you got and use it for the next 2 months and enjoy it,, cheers!

Multimedia, Snowy and Grokgod,

Thanks for the continued thoughts. A store manager said she would be flexible with the 14 day return date, as lnog as I understand that I would pay the restock fee of 10%. What that means to me is I will hold on to this machine until the WWDC and if new model is announced I will return and repurchase, eating the restock fee.( Kind of a pay for usage plan I look at it as.) If no new enhancements are announced with the iMac i guess I will keep mine.

However, there is the thought as one of you have brought up to just reetuen and wait until Sept. when it may be more likely to arrive. A slippery slop0e I know but I am leaning mroe toward a return and repurchase, as a sort of insruance policy of sorts.

I know I can't have my cake and eat it...., but I was looking for insight into how likely an improvement in the iMac is this August.

Thanks again!

Merk850

Willis
Jul 28, 2006, 09:39 PM
Multimedia, Snowy and Grokgod,

Thanks for the continued thoughts. A store manager said she would be flexible with the 14 day return date, as lnog as I understand that I would pay the restock fee of 10%. What that means to me is I will hold on to this machine until the WWDC and if new model is announced I will return and repurchase, eating the restock fee.( Kind of a pay for usage plan I look at it as.) If no new enhancements are announced with the iMac i guess I will keep mine.

However, there is the thought as one of you have brought up to just reetuen and wait until Sept. when it may be more likely to arrive. A slippery slop0e I know but I am leaning mroe toward a return and repurchase, as a sort of insruance policy of sorts.

I know I can't have my cake and eat it...., but I was looking for insight into how likely an improvement in the iMac is this August.

Thanks again!

Merk850

Update this august... not likely. It will be all pro. Any consumer will be Paris Expo. The imac G5 was launched there. why not a Core 2 Duo iMac?

Multimedia
Jul 29, 2006, 12:24 AM
I recall someone here recently reiterating the point that Merom should not use less power than Yonah, but accomplish 20% more work. That was my understanding.

Now the claim is being made that a Core 2 Duo Notebook can get longer battery life than a "previous model" notebook, up to 5 hours.

Video: Long-lasting Intel Core 2 Duo notebooks (http://news.com.com/1606-2_3-6100051.html?part=rss&tag=6100051&subj=news)Love this news. Just what I was expecting and one of the main reasons to have waited for Core 2 Duo mobile Macs. :)

Kane.Elson
Jul 29, 2006, 03:42 AM
Love this news. Just what I was expecting and one of the main reasons to have waited for Core 2 Duo mobile Macs. :)

Ahh the rewards of waiting.
The performance increase and the 64-bit sounded good but this just makes me grin about the fact that I waited. I can never get enough battery life.

MacinDoc
Jul 29, 2006, 04:03 AM
Update this august... not likely. It will be all pro. Any consumer will be Paris Expo. The imac G5 was launched there. why not a Core 2 Duo iMac?
Of course, the problem with waiting until Paris for consumer upgrades like MacBook is that Apple will entirely miss the educational buying season, losing one of the largest markets for its consumer products...

Willis
Jul 29, 2006, 05:35 AM
Of course, the problem with waiting until Paris for consumer upgrades like MacBook is that Apple will entirely miss the educational buying season, losing one of the largest markets for its consumer products...

apples education buying season is now.... in fact, theyve already had a 33K notebook order from one school that i read on.

Willis
Jul 29, 2006, 08:23 AM
Does anyone else find the UK store Shipping times a bit long all of a sudden. theyve been like this since monday i think.

white Macbooks 3 days, iMac 20" 5-7 days?

generik
Jul 29, 2006, 09:29 AM
this would be smart because as of right now the mac book pro doesnt WOW me over the macbook. Do you think the "core 3" will also have the same pin structure as the 2's?

Not a chance in hell, give up the idea of upgrading your Mac already :rolleyes:

The newer Meroms that are to come out Q2 2007 will be based off a completely new socket.

ariechel
Jul 29, 2006, 11:05 AM
Of course, the problem with waiting until Paris for consumer upgrades like MacBook is that Apple will entirely miss the educational buying season, losing one of the largest markets for its consumer products...

If my memory serves me correctly, new models are hardly ever introduced in time for the educational buying season. Whether this is by design (Apple can probably make the highest profit margins off selling somewhat older products at the same price point) or by chance, I don't know.

There does seem to be a lot of wishful thinking about what Apple "has to do" because of educational buying season, competition with other PC manufacturers, whatever. From the business and engineering point of view, Apple may have very good reasons to delay releases beyond what we think is "reasonable."

dhunt
Jul 29, 2006, 04:41 PM
I know for a fact that the design college I go to just placed an order for MANY MANY MBP 17". Apple knows that students and schools need computers before school starts, and getting rid of some "old" products before you release your new ones, is a pretty good idea if you ask me.

backdraft
Jul 29, 2006, 05:57 PM
well I'd rather see a ppc update...

boncellis
Jul 29, 2006, 05:59 PM
Ok, here goes. (Quick pass)

Eeek. Not so sure I like that.

Hmmm... maybe with just one slot?

A little better. I personally prefer the taller narrower one, though.

It looks pretty good! The extra room would allow for the 3.5" HDD and a dedicated GPU--making it a "true" media center.

Not to nitpick, but maybe it would only have to be 1.5x wider rather than 2x wide. Either way, I think it's pretty cool. Thanks! ;)

Multimedia
Jul 29, 2006, 07:03 PM
this would be smart because as of right now the mac book pro doesnt WOW me over the macbook. Do you think the "core 3" will also have the same pin structure as the 2's?Core 3 is in 2009. Many things will be very different by then. You wouldn't want to upgrade a 2006 Mac in 2009.Not a chance in hell, give up the idea of upgrading your Mac already :rolleyes:

The newer Meroms that are to come out Q2 2007 will be based off a completely new socket.With Santa Rosa to boot!

Snowy_River
Jul 30, 2006, 02:08 AM
It looks pretty good! The extra room would allow for the 3.5" HDD and a dedicated GPU--making it a "true" media center.

Not to nitpick, but maybe it would only have to be 1.5x wider rather than 2x wide. Either way, I think it's pretty cool. Thanks! ;)

I think that the bigger issue with Dan=='s design (full credit and kudos for the idea!) is that the Mac Mini is so small that it only uses laptop components. If you want to have a full-size optical drive or a full-size hard drive, you need to use a larger form factor. This is part of the reason for the size of my design.

Here's a comparison in sizes (I've also changed the floor because my wife thought that the reflection was confusing...)

http://www.ghwphoto.com/3MacsFrontSm.png

http://www.ghwphoto.com/3MacsBackSm.png

Cheers!

Willis
Jul 30, 2006, 11:09 AM
I think that the bigger issue with Dan=='s design (full credit and kudos for the idea!) is that the Mac Mini is so small that it only uses laptop components. If you want to have a full-size optical drive or a full-size hard drive, you need to use a larger form factor. This is part of the reason for the size of my design.

Here's a comparison in sizes (I've also changed the floor because my wife thought that the reflection was confusing...)

http://www.ghwphoto.com/3MacsFrontSm.png

http://www.ghwphoto.com/3MacsBackSm.png

Cheers!

actually.... that looks really good. If apple were to incorperate that... man... it'll be a good seller

spicyapple
Jul 30, 2006, 11:15 AM
All of the reviews of the Core 2 Duo say that it crushes AMD in the desktop arena. This is good news, now we just need new iMacs, MacBook Pros, and Mac Pros.
Can't wait to hear Steve Jobs' spin on the Core 2 Duos at WWDC. He makes everything sound so good, and with the C2Ds really good, it should be fantastic! :)

Val-kyrie
Jul 30, 2006, 01:22 PM
So are we really going to get ALL of these new toys come WWDC? Leopard preview, Merom laptops, Core2/Woodcrest Mac Pros, Core2 Imacs (oh, and maybe a movie download add to iTunes) That sounds like an awful lot of stuff to cover in such a short period of time. What do people think about timelines for introduction here?

Doubtful. This would leave nothing for September. (I hope this hasn't already been said, but I want to post before reading the other 200+ via modem). My prediction is the debut of Mac Pros, a preview of Leopard and perhaps an iMac update. The Merom chips will not be shipped until the end of Aug., so expect the unveiling of the MBPs in a (slightly) new form factor with 64 bit Core 2 Duo in Sep., along with the silent update of MBs, and an iMac update if they are not updated in Aug. I have not a clue about movie updates or updates to the iPod lines, though by Sep. would be reasonable.

Val-kyrie
Jul 30, 2006, 01:27 PM
Gee, talk about getting ahead of yourself.

Core 3 will be out before Vista is. I'm going to call it now.

Everybody, be my witness, Core 3 (any processor that goes beyond Core 2 because I don't know if they'll call it "Core 3") will be out before a consumer version of Vista is shipped.

You don't think Vista will be out before the revision to the Core 2 Duo due in Q1 2007 with the Santa Rosa chipset??? I bet Vista will ship by the time the Santa Rosa chipset is ready, especially because MS is suggesting Vista systems use harddrives or Mobos with flash RAM to speed up the boot process.

Multimedia
Jul 30, 2006, 03:25 PM
Gee, talk about getting ahead of yourself.

Core 3 will be out before Vista is. I'm going to call it now.

Everybody, be my witness, Core 3 (any processor that goes beyond Core 2 because I don't know if they'll call it "Core 3") will be out before a consumer version of Vista is shipped.Here's an example of a post based in fantasy instead of fact. Core 3 is a distinct next generation set of processors based on a 45nm manufacturing process that will not begin before LATE 2008 and reign all of 2009 and 2010. :rolleyes:

We are your witness. And what we are witnessing is that you have not studied the Intel Roadmap at all.You don't think Vista will be out before the revision to the Core 2 Duo due in Q1 2007 with the Santa Rosa chipset??? I bet Vista will ship by the time the Santa Rosa chipset is ready, especially because MS is suggesting Vista systems use harddrives or Mobos with flash RAM to speed up the boot process.Vista ships early 2007 and way preceeds the Core 3 launch. :rolleyes:

Core 2 is with us for the next two years, all of 2007 and most of 2008.:)

ChickenSwartz
Jul 30, 2006, 04:45 PM
...The Merom chips will not be shipped until the end of Aug...

I don't think this is correct. The Merom chips were introduced last Thursday, but have been shipping for a while now, a month ahead of schedule.

Intel said that you could expect to see this chip in a laptop by the end of August. Does that mean custom built or in Best Buy (or wherever)?

It seems to me that if one was going to introduce a so called "Mac Pro" with the newest 64-bit processor, one would also choose introduce its mobile "Pro" counterpart.

Val-kyrie
Jul 30, 2006, 05:09 PM
I don't think this is correct. The Merom chips were introduced last Thursday, but have been shipping for a while now, a month ahead of schedule.

Intel said that you could expect to see this chip in a laptop by the end of August. Does that mean custom built or in Best Buy (or wherever)?

It seems to me that if one was going to introduce a so called "Mac Pro" with the newest 64-bit processor, one would also choose introduce its mobile "Pro" counterpart.

Perhaps I have overstated my case. Intel is shipping Merom chips, but laptops with Merom inside are not expected in retail channels until the end of August--perhaps because of limited supply?

MacinDoc
Jul 30, 2006, 06:23 PM
Vista ships early 2007 and way preceeds the Core 3 launch. :rolleyes:
That is, Bill Gates has stated that there is an 80% chance that Vista will ship in early 2007, which, when multiplied by the 80% probability that his estimate is something smelly that comes out of the backside of a bull (and only 20% chance that it is actually true), gives a 16% chance that Vista will REALLY ship in early 2007. ;)

macaddicted
Jul 30, 2006, 07:42 PM
Perhaps I have overstated my case. Intel is shipping Merom chips, but laptops with Merom inside are not expected in retail channels until the end of August--perhaps because of limited supply?

I hope not. Visions of Motorola hauntingly return.

Frobozz
Jul 30, 2006, 08:13 PM
I've built a gaming PC around the Core 2 Duo E6700. I'd like to be able to install OS X on it, because the only reason why I'd ever use Windows is for the latest games. Here are the spec's, think this would run OS X nicely? ;-)

Intel 975XBX Motherboard
Intel Core 2 Duo E6700 (should overclock to around 3.2 to 3.5 GHz with my Zalman CNPS9500 AT air cooler)
ATI Crossfire x1900 (crossfire master card)
Sapphire ATI x1900xt (in crossfire)
1GB Crucial Ballistix DDR2 800 Memory
2 x 320GB Seagate Perpendicular Recording SATA2 HD's in RAID 1
Antec Trupower II 550 watt power supply
Antec P180 case in black

... keep in mind I am a diehard Mac fan, but I've always wanted to build a gaming rig since I'm a hardcore gamer. After all, I'm writing this entry on my MacBook Pro. Mmmmm.

Eidorian
Jul 30, 2006, 08:55 PM
I'd like to be able to install OS X on it, because the only reason why I'd ever use Windows is for the latest games. Here are the spec's, think this would run OS X nicely? ;-)This is a joke...right?

fastlane1588
Jul 30, 2006, 10:36 PM
why not just upgrade a new macpro w/ ur hard drives and all that stuff, and then just bootcamp into windows....ud have a pretty sweet pc if the mac pros have all the goodies that people keep saying they will have

gnasher729
Jul 31, 2006, 05:39 AM
I've built a gaming PC around the Core 2 Duo E6700. I'd like to be able to install OS X on it, because the only reason why I'd ever use Windows is for the latest games. Here are the spec's, think this would run OS X nicely? ;-)

For $599 you can buy a MacMini with a Core Solo processor. That is currently the cheapest way to get a legal copy of MacOS X for Intel. It is clearly illegal to install that copy of MacOS X on your home-built computer while it is still on the Macintosh, it is unclear whether it is legal or illegal to install it if you removed it from the Macintosh (seems legal in many european countries). If it is legal, then obviously you can also salvage parts for the MacMini, like DVD drive, harddisk, a bit of memory and save a bit of money that way. Unfortunately an unmodified MacOS X will refuse to run on anything that is not a Macintosh.

You may be able to get MacOS X slightly cheaper by buying a refurbished MacMini, or by buying one on eBay. And sometimes people sell broken computers on eBay.

Dan==
Jul 31, 2006, 09:35 AM
I think that the bigger issue with Dan=='s design (full credit and kudos for the idea!) is that the Mac Mini is so small that it only uses laptop components. If you want to have a full-size optical drive or a full-size hard drive, you need to use a larger form factor. This is part of the reason for the size of my design.

Here's a comparison in sizes (I've also changed the floor because my wife thought that the reflection was confusing...)

http://www.ghwphoto.com/3MacsFrontSm.png

http://www.ghwphoto.com/3MacsBackSm.png

Cheers!
Now you've got some skills. I especially like the shadowing, reflections and detail on the back side. Very nice.

I agree with your size assessment.

Actually, our designs are quite close, differing primarily in cosmetics. What I'm refering to is my earlier design, (which I suspect you missed) not boncellis'. boncellis wished to see a wider, flatter version for use in home entertainment, so I conjured that 2nd one up for visualization. While that form factor has grown on me somewhat, I still like the taller version, as I had done earlier, and you've shown here, as well.

Here's my initial design, from earlier in this thread.
http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/9648/macandmacminipx9.jpg
The size of mine is a little smaller (narrower) - I wanted the whole thing less than 8" wide, though it could go back a little deeper, i.e. not necessarily square.

Also, see possible/hoped for product specs earlier in the thread.

Personally, I think I still prefer the smoother Mini-like skin than the perforated look of the Pro, but I'm just quibbling.

Thanks for the imagery.

-Dan

milo
Jul 31, 2006, 09:49 AM
I respectfully disagree. I say take it back and be ready for a much faster iMac Core 2 Duo. You want the latest, take it back. It won't be the latest for many more weeks. Core 2 Duo will be the latest for two more years.

Much faster? Benchmarks so far only say about 20% faster at the same clock speed. You just have to decide if paying a 10% restocking fee and being without your computer for who knows how long (I REALLY doubt new iMacs at the show, probably just towers and maybe MBP's) is worth that speed boost. And core 2 duo won't be "the latest for two years". Supposedly intel is going to ship quad cores by the end of this year! Not sure why you think that intel is suddenly going to stop making improvements.

Personally, at this point if I hadn't bought I'd wait, but if did I'd keep it.

Of course, the problem with waiting until Paris for consumer upgrades like MacBook is that Apple will entirely miss the educational buying season, losing one of the largest markets for its consumer products...

The educational buying season already happened...and apple was just in time with the macbook. They just came out a couple months ago and are still selling like hotcakes, they didn't miss anything.

And Snowy...love that design, that would be perfect. And it would have WAY better bang for buck compared to the cube, they need to make it simple, not a shiny work of art.

You don't think Vista will be out before the revision to the Core 2 Duo due in Q1 2007 with the Santa Rosa chipset??? I bet Vista will ship by the time the Santa Rosa chipset is ready, especially because MS is suggesting Vista systems use harddrives or Mobos with flash RAM to speed up the boot process.

The next update to Core isn't the new chipset, it's the four core versions, cloverton and kentsfield. And those are supposed to ship before the end of this year, which would beat Vista handily.

Here's an example of a post based in fantasy instead of fact. Core 3 is a distinct next generation set of processors based on a 45nm manufacturing process that will not begin before LATE 2008 and reign all of 2009 and 2010. :rolleyes:

Did you read his post? He said he meant the next update to Core, whether that's called Core 3 or not (any processor that goes beyond Core 2 because I don't know if they'll call it "Core 3"). He just used "core 3" because he didn't know what the real name for the next gen is.

I hope not. Visions of Motorola hauntingly return.

Possible initial supply constraints...because they decided to ship the chip a month EARLY? That's not remotely like moto.

Snowy_River
Jul 31, 2006, 10:37 AM
Now you've got some skills. I especially like the shadowing, reflections and detail on the back side. Very nice.

I agree with your size assessment.

Actually, our designs are quite close, differing primarily in cosmetics. What I'm refering to is my earlier design, (which I suspect you missed) not boncellis'. boncellis wished to see a wider, flatter version for use in home entertainment, so I conjured that 2nd one up for visualization. While that form factor has grown on me somewhat, I still like the taller version, as I had done earlier, and you've shown here, as well.

Here's my initial design, from earlier in this thread.
http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/9648/macandmacminipx9.jpg
The size of mine is a little smaller (narrower) - I wanted the whole thing less than 8" wide, though it could go back a little deeper, i.e. not necessarily square.

Also, see possible/hoped for product specs earlier in the thread.

Personally, I think I still prefer the smoother Mini-like skin than the perforated look of the Pro, but I'm just quibbling.

Thanks for the imagery.

-Dan

Thank you. I had fun doing it. Although I realized later that my MP is missing the Apple Logo on the side. Oh well.

I did see your earlier design, actually. I had though that it was meant to be the same footprint as the Mac Mini. Seeing it again, I can see that I was mistaken. By comparison, my design is 10"W x 11"D x 4"H. I think to bring it down to the MP 8.1"W, it would have to be made taller, to be reasonable.

Also, in the vein of quibbling, I think that the perforated look of the MP allows for much better cooling, and therefore hotter components, such as extra boards, faster processors, higher-end GPU, etc. That's the reason I went with it... :)

Maybe now I should draw a scene with the Mac++, a keyboard, a mouse, and an ACD. What do you think?

Orange-DE
Jul 31, 2006, 11:04 AM
You Do Dat!

cozart
Jul 31, 2006, 12:00 PM
so i'm having a difficult time deciding what to do.

North Carolina's sales tax holiday is this coming weekend, just a couple of days before WWDC (of course!). i had every intention of buying a MacBook Pro during the holiday, but now i have no idea what to do.

assuming there's not a silent release of an updated MBP tomorrow...

will waiting be worth losing the 7.5% (somewhere between $150 and $200 depending on how i customize it) that i'll have to pay if i don't get it during the holiday?

should i go ahead and get it during tax free weekend in case there's not even an announcement at WWDC? or, if there is an announcement, should i go ahead and get it and then return it within the 14-day window, losing the 10% restocking fee.

so many options and this first-time mac buyer doesn't know what to do!

greenstork
Jul 31, 2006, 12:01 PM
Multimedia, Snowy and Grokgod,

Thanks for the continued thoughts. A store manager said she would be flexible with the 14 day return date, as lnog as I understand that I would pay the restock fee of 10%. What that means to me is I will hold on to this machine until the WWDC and if new model is announced I will return and repurchase, eating the restock fee.( Kind of a pay for usage plan I look at it as.) If no new enhancements are announced with the iMac i guess I will keep mine.

However, there is the thought as one of you have brought up to just reetuen and wait until Sept. when it may be more likely to arrive. A slippery slop0e I know but I am leaning mroe toward a return and repurchase, as a sort of insruance policy of sorts.

I know I can't have my cake and eat it...., but I was looking for insight into how likely an improvement in the iMac is this August.

Thanks again!

Merk850

That's an accommodating manager that you found. The lesson learned here I suppose, and it's been said time and time again, is never buy a new computer before a major Mac conference (Macworld SF & Paris, and WWDC).

greenstork
Jul 31, 2006, 12:05 PM
Update this august... not likely. It will be all pro. Any consumer will be Paris Expo. The imac G5 was launched there. why not a Core 2 Duo iMac?

Why not? Cost...

The prices of the Yonahs just dropped precipitously, thereby increasing Apple's margins on their line of computers in mid product cycle. They'll be selling fewer iMacs anyway because everyone will want the fanciest MB Pros and Mac Pros with the super fast Intel chips. To make up for selling fewer iMacs, they'll be raking in higher margins on each computer.

Look for consumer model speed bumps ahead of the holiday season.

uv23
Jul 31, 2006, 12:07 PM
Apple will never ship a desktop machine so close in size to the mini. Impractical and too much market confusion. I'm expecting a ~25% decrease in size of the current G5 tower, making it more mid-tower sized. This would still be an improvement to the current behemoths.

greenstork
Jul 31, 2006, 12:08 PM
Of course, the problem with waiting until Paris for consumer upgrades like MacBook is that Apple will entirely miss the educational buying season, losing one of the largest markets for its consumer products...

Why would Apple miss the educational buying season? They just released a brand new educational iMac (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/07/20060712164540.shtml) this month. eMacs don't need or want the latest and greatest, fastest chips, they need the most bang for their buck. I believe that the $899 educational iMac fits that description to the letter.

greenstork
Jul 31, 2006, 12:17 PM
I've built a gaming PC around the Core 2 Duo E6700. I'd like to be able to install OS X on it, because the only reason why I'd ever use Windows is for the latest games. Here are the spec's, think this would run OS X nicely? ;-)

Intel 975XBX Motherboard
Intel Core 2 Duo E6700 (should overclock to around 3.2 to 3.5 GHz with my Zalman CNPS9500 AT air cooler)
ATI Crossfire x1900 (crossfire master card)
Sapphire ATI x1900xt (in crossfire)
1GB Crucial Ballistix DDR2 800 Memory
2 x 320GB Seagate Perpendicular Recording SATA2 HD's in RAID 1
Antec Trupower II 550 watt power supply
Antec P180 case in black

... keep in mind I am a diehard Mac fan, but I've always wanted to build a gaming rig since I'm a hardcore gamer. After all, I'm writing this entry on my MacBook Pro. Mmmmm.

You should have waited for a Mac Pro. By hacking OS X to run on your custom built machine, you're constantly going to have to deal with a buggy Mac OS. There's no doubt that with every OS update, Apple will try to disable your hacked copy, if not fry your OS X installation. Make sure you partition...

I'm a gamer too and I'm just sitting on my hands waiting for a Mac Pro. Sure, it may be more expensive than a custom-built Intel machine, but it will run OS X like a charm, and that's ultimately the most important factor in my computer purchase. But access to Windows games and Mac OS X, that's a dream come true for this mac fanatic. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that virtualization makes big enough strides that I never have to leave OS X to play Windows-based games.

greenstork
Jul 31, 2006, 12:25 PM
Apple will never ship a desktop machine so close in size to the mini. Impractical and too much market confusion. I'm expecting a ~25% decrease in size of the current G5 tower, making it more mid-tower sized. This would still be an improvement to the current behemoths.

Wow, you're pulling out my deep cuts with your sig. They never did fit a G5 in a notebook, I guess that was my intention with that quote. The G4 was never a great chip. It ran hot and the only way to make it faster was to make it run hotter, Apple needed a new chip and they knew it. Because they couldn't find a producer of efficient PPC chips, they switched to Intel, and I don't think anyone saw that coming.

Sometimes, chip makers move backwards to an architecture that works. Look at Intel's latest chips, they're an evolution of the Pentium M architecture and a departure from what previously was their "best" and fastest, the Pentium 4.

iFry
Jul 31, 2006, 12:28 PM
Sure, it may be more expensive than a custom-built Intel machine, but it will run OS X like a charm, and that's ultimately the most important factor in my computer purchase. But access to Windows games and Mac OS X, that's a dream come true for this mac fanatic. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that virtualization makes big enough strides that I never have to leave OS X to play Windows-based games.

my thoughts exactly... MacBook Pro in two weeks :D

wish i had that Core 2 goin in it...

Eidorian
Jul 31, 2006, 12:31 PM
What I'd like to know is the upgrade options in a new tower. We're running on EFI instead of Open Firmware now.

Dan==
Jul 31, 2006, 12:35 PM
I did see your earlier design, actually. I had though that it was meant to be the same footprint as the Mac Mini. Seeing it again, I can see that I was mistaken. By comparison, my design is 10"W x 11"D x 4"H. I think to bring it down to the MP 8.1"W, it would have to be made taller, to be reasonable.
Yes, mine's about 5" high, which is tall enough so it would probably need some low hand grips or something. I'm not an engineer for these things, so I'm not even sure it would fit everything, but it looks like it might.
Also, in the vein of quibbling, I think that the perforated look of the MP allows for much better cooling, and therefore hotter components, such as extra boards, faster processors, higher-end GPU, etc. That's the reason I went with it... :)
Perforation only might help cooling. I've heard getting cool air on the parts in question is the most important, and internal flow may actually be better served with a mostly (obviously not completely) closed case design. (I'm probably wrong though in my recollection.)
Maybe now I should draw a scene with the Mac++, a keyboard, a mouse, and an ACD. What do you think?
Sure, I'd love to see some more pretty pictures of what we're dreaming about. It's a little like holding a lottery ticket in your hand, waiting for the numbers to be drawn, visualizing what you're going to buy with the winnings. :-)

-Dan

greenstork
Jul 31, 2006, 12:49 PM
With the possible introduction of the iPhone, movie downloads, Leopard preview, and true video iPods, in addition to new Mac Pros and possibly other updated Macs with the Core 2 Duos, I'm putting my money on a product announcement tomorrow.

Steve's going to spend the keynote telling developers about what they'll be able to do with Leopard, it is a developers conference after all. I'll go out on a limb and say Mac Pros tomorrow or perhaps at the very least, new Xserves. There is every reason to just wait until August 7, but I'll chance my prediction for an update tomorrow. Who's with me!