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MacRumors
Jul 28, 2006, 07:13 AM
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ZDNet reports (http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9584_22-6099299.html) on Microsoft's recently revealed audio player initiative known as "Zune". Last week (http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1040_22-6097935.html?tag=nl) Microsoft confirmed that they were entering the music player market with an integrated solution for music, called Zune:

"We do need a more consistent experience," Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer said in a January interview. "That doesn't mean it's bad to have a variety of devices. I think that's great. But there are some things we need to make sure are more consistently delivered across the portable devices."


In the latest article, Microsoft's president of the Entertainment and Devices Division states that the Zune initiative is a long term effort with tie ins into other Microsoft projects including the Xbox, Medica center and Live Anywhere gaming.

Bach didn't offer new details on Zune but said creating a sense of community and making it easier to find new music are central to it. "We're not just introducing Zune to do the same thing other people do," Bach said. Still, he said, the company expects it to take three to five years for the effort to really pay off.

rxse7en
Jul 28, 2006, 07:18 AM
Awesome! I can't wait for Vista! And now Zune! Who needs those silly Macs?









Uh, why is this on page 1? We already have enough iPod news, now we're going to be following an MS product that doesn't exist yet? C'mon! More grainy photos of elevators! Chop, Chop!


:D

B

dextertangocci
Jul 28, 2006, 07:19 AM
It will FAIL!!!!!!!

Idiot M$:rolleyes:

ibook30
Jul 28, 2006, 07:19 AM
"We do need a more consistent experience,",,,, introducing the Zune Blue Screen.

blackout8
Jul 28, 2006, 07:22 AM
If it has any features like Pandora or Last.fm i'll be very interested... albeit I already have those two for free... As long as the 'finding new music' feature is better than the iTunes Mini store, which is down right bad. Bring on a pandora like stream but with intergrated purchasing features, so that you can in a way try before you buy, as well as find more music.

That would work wouldn't it - i know it would get me purchasing more music online. O WAIT! DRM... nevermind ignore this whole post :rolleyes:

crees!
Jul 28, 2006, 07:27 AM
As long as the 'finding new music' feature is better than the iTunes Mini store, which is down right bad. Bad. I think it's great.

Tommyg117
Jul 28, 2006, 07:29 AM
I think Itunes and mac are great! The iPod is number one because it is amazingly easy and equally impressive looking. Zune will have a lot of competition.

Swinny
Jul 28, 2006, 07:29 AM
Its interesting to see Microsoft's strategy on this - I think its only a good thing that somebody is trying to look at the whole player/content ecosystem in the same way that Apple have...that competition can only be a good thing surely?

However...some of the comments do seem to suggest they already expect to be losing the battle though - surely if you really thought you could compete with iPod/iTunes you would be a little bolder? Makes it sound half-hearted, and thats a shame.

JGowan
Jul 28, 2006, 07:30 AM
"Three to Five Years"! What a HARD laugh!

The iPod (which started the whole dang thang) has only been OUT for five years and the iTunes Music Store for about three.

I think it is downright presumptous to predict 5 years down the pike just about anything when NOBODY could've predicted just what Apple would accomplish in such a period of time.

fenixx
Jul 28, 2006, 07:34 AM
"Still, he said, the company expects it to take three to five years for the effort to really pay off."

This is great news! When the Zune is at its peak in three-five years, it can coincide with the first release of Vista in 2009-2012.

-_-









I hate the name Zune.

Stella
Jul 28, 2006, 07:35 AM
Don't discount microsoft - they have money to lose for years in trying to get #1 for MP3 - slowly they creep up and overturn Apple - apple doesn't ahve the same stamina.

A long term commitment, not a short term thing.

Awesome! I can't wait for Vista! And now Zune! Who needs those silly Macs?









Uh, why is this on page 1? We already have enough iPod news, now we're going to be following an MS product that doesn't exist yet? C'mon! More grainy photos of elevators! Chop, Chop!


:D

B

Applechild
Jul 28, 2006, 07:37 AM
It's too late for Microsoft - they are just riding Apple's coattails now, in a desperate attempt to create something that can compete with iTunes+iPod...but thats all it is, a desperate attempt :eek:

eric_n_dfw
Jul 28, 2006, 07:39 AM
Bad. I think it's great.
Have you ever used Pandora.com? (It's pretty awesome)

bigmc6000
Jul 28, 2006, 07:40 AM
Don't discount microsoft - they have money to lose for years in trying to get #1 for MP3 - slowly they creep up and overturn Apple - apple doesn't ahve the same stamina.

A long term commitment, not a short term thing.

$9,500,000,000 - that's just sitting around in cash with no long term debt. I think Apple's got plenty of "stamina"...

joeops57
Jul 28, 2006, 07:42 AM
I actually hope it's moderately successful. Hopefully then, Apple will see fit to reduce their pricing schema on the iPods.

Realistically, it could go either way. Despite the debacle that is Windows, Microsoft has had a great deal of success with the XBox. I wouldn't be surprised if Zune isn't as bad as most members of MacRumors will make it out to be.

~Joe

Chaszmyr
Jul 28, 2006, 07:43 AM
This sounds just like what they said with Xbox. They want it to do something new, they expect it to be the next big thing, and it's gonna take a few years. I think once Wii is released, we'll see 360 take a market dive just like 360 did, and Zune may well face the same fate.

supremedesigner
Jul 28, 2006, 07:46 AM
<snip>
I hate the name Zune.<snip>

That word remind me of: dune or even worse - DOOM! :D

bigmc6000
Jul 28, 2006, 07:54 AM
I actually hope it's moderately successful. Hopefully then, Apple will see fit to reduce their pricing schema on the iPods.

Realistically, it could go either way. Despite the debacle that is Windows, Microsoft has had a great deal of success with the XBox. I wouldn't be surprised if Zune isn't as bad as most members of MacRumors will make it out to be.

~Joe


Really depends on yoru defintion of success. Popularity wise it's been successful (360 is helped solely by the fact it's the only HD player out there right now) but as far as the stock holders and business men are concerned it's been a debacle - they've lost hundreds of millions of dollars in the XBox and have still yet to see a single positve quarter, financially speaking, since it's inception.

dextertangocci
Jul 28, 2006, 07:58 AM
This is great news! When the Zune is at its peak in three-five years, it can coincide with the first release of Vista in 2009-2012.

Do you seriously think VISTA (Viruses, Infections, Spyware, Trojans & Adware) is going to be released that early?:rolleyes: lol.

jarednt1
Jul 28, 2006, 07:59 AM
$9,500,000,000 - that's just sitting around in cash with no long term debt. I think Apple's got plenty of "stamina"...

Yes however MS can try and fight it out for much longer, they have about 3 times that in cash and no long term debt as well. I can see this makeing some really kick a** iPods.

blackout8
Jul 28, 2006, 08:00 AM
Have you ever used Pandora.com? (It's pretty awesome)

exactly, i'm sure the mini store has its uses but i mean compared to the others... i'm sure the itunes recommendations thingo is great for some people, but if you could stream music that is similar to your tastes / the current song ala pandora.com that would be 'saweet' :D

AlanAudio
Jul 28, 2006, 08:02 AM
When Microsoft claim that their investment might not pay off for five years, they're paving the way for failure. For the next two or three years, when pressed about the lack of profits, they can claim that the payoff will be in a couple of years from then. They won't have to actually admit that they've failed until after 2010. It's not dissimilar to Bill Gates claiming that there's an 80% chance of Vista shipping on time, it sounds positive, but few people believe it actually will ship in January. It's just paving the way for the next excuse.

It's very important that Microsoft try very hard with Zune. They keep claiming that the iPod succeeded simply because of slick marketing, whereas everybody else knows that it succeeded by being an attractive proposition, combining style with ease of use. It was word-of-mouth publicity that really worked for the iPod. You can't buy that, it added massive value to the money that was spent on advertising.

So here's Microsoft's opportunity to look at the last five years of the iPod, together with three years of iTMS, take it all in and apply their 'innovation', show us the ultimate product and then spend a fortune marketing it. There must be no doubt that Microsoft must be seen to throw everything into this project. Then Steve Jobs will be delighted to rise to the challenge and delight in humiliating Bill Gates.

Stella
Jul 28, 2006, 08:03 AM
$9,500,000,000 - that's just sitting around in cash with no long term debt. I think Apple's got plenty of "stamina"...

Apple are not going to blow all that on the iPod, they would abandon the market long before that.

Shareholders would revolt, Jobs would be kicked out ( again ).

However, this threat ( a very real threat ) from microsoft may see Apple pick the pace up on iPod evolution, which has been fairly slow.

However, Microsoft haven't been that successful in the hardware market, a lot more products ( i.e., routers ) have failed than succeeded, so their track record isn't so good. XBox still isn't making a profit - again thats another example of a long term strategy that microsoft will hope will pay off in the future. Short term pain for long term gain!

rxse7en
Jul 28, 2006, 08:08 AM
Don't discount microsoft - they have money to lose for years in trying to get #1 for MP3 - slowly they creep up and overturn Apple - apple doesn't ahve the same stamina.

A long term commitment, not a short term thing.

Aside from trying to be funny, I was just pointing out that--for myself--I'd rather read about Mac rumors not MS rumors. I think the whole point of confirming Zune this early is just this, create spin. A consumer, music product that is years away from making any impact is now first page news on Macrumors...again.

I understand its potential. I understand MS's deep pockets. I would just prefer to read about it on MSrumors.com or Zunerumors.com. :D

B

junker
Jul 28, 2006, 08:13 AM
I don't get the name Zune either...
I think a better name could be Xune,
no wait... Exhume...like, "exhume the zombie of a creative microsoft.

What am I saying!?!!?! Creative Microsoft!!? That's an oxymoron - like miltary intelligence!

And 3-5 years? Seriously man, I can appreciate you have to have a plan... but what about a little innovation and less copying. (have you seen the vista snapshots? Outright OSX ripoff) I don't understand why someone would say something like that. It's just pointless, from a marketing standpoint.
The subtext is: "We're unable to actually make money today or anytime in this decade - with this product - but dont forget to buy our shares."

Essentially, it seems like they're saying:
"We don't intend put our juices into this - ever. By the time, the whole industry is saturated with our worthless crap, and apple has come out with something else innovative...we'll have these selling for 15 bucks each"

Nevermind that in 3-5 years, we'll be dealing with the equivilent of a G4 that you can wear on your wrist or attach to you glasses... or for that matter to your tongue!
see link: http://www.livescience.com/technology/060424_ap_tongue_soldiers.html

I dont mean to cheer on the competition, but it would at least be nice to occassionaly have some.

crees!
Jul 28, 2006, 08:13 AM
Have you ever used Pandora.com? (It's pretty awesome) Yes, at work I have but now I just listen to my iPod instead.

Dr.Gargoyle
Jul 28, 2006, 08:15 AM
This news will hopefully inspire Apple to make the next generation iPods even more amazing. However, I don't see MS as the biggest threat to the iPod. I am much more concerned about mp3 cellphones with 4Gb flash (see e.g. SonyEricsson).
Apple needs come up with a revolutionary device that integrates an iPod with a cellphone and possibly even a GPS, in order to keep their mp3 marketshare.

Spagolli94
Jul 28, 2006, 08:16 AM
Apple has done something VERY important with the iPod. They made it cool, especially among teens thru college-aged kids. Whenever I'm in an Apple store, it's very obvious just how strongly Apple is going after this demographic and I think it's paying off. Once Zune comes out, would you want to be the one kid in school who has a dorky Microsoft MP3 player? Sure, it will probably have more features. Just like those calculator wristwatch things. They are loaded with features too. That doesn't mean that 99% of kids would be caught dead wearing one.

Too many features can be a bad thing. I remember guy back in college... He always had the latest and greatest gadgets. Cell phone and beeper on his belt, you know they type. ***** tool.

As long as the iPod keeps it's position as the "cool" MP3 player, they will be just fine.

junker
Jul 28, 2006, 08:17 AM
This news will hopefully inspire Apple to make the next generation iPods even more amazing. However, I don't see MS as the biggest threat to the iPod. I am much more concerned about mp3 cellphones with 4Gb flash (see e.g. SonyEricsson).
Apple needs come up with a revolutionary device that integrates an iPod with a cellphone and possibly even a GPS, in order to keep their mp3 marketshare.


And when MRAM comes to the market - I hope Apple gets that first, it'll mean a HUGE advantage for whomever.

Chris Bangle
Jul 28, 2006, 08:21 AM
at microsoft the name they had to choose from were probably ipod killer or zune, and someone obviously chose zune....... what an idiot. it like fords new s-max which is reffered to as smack eg smacking ure kids...

Stella
Jul 28, 2006, 08:21 AM
Absolutely!!

Have any microsoft products ever been seen as 'cool'?! lol

Apple has done something VERY important with the iPod. They made it cool, especially among teens thru college-aged kids. Whenever I'm in an Apple store, it's very obvious just how strongly Apple is going after this demographic and I think it's paying off.

zapp
Jul 28, 2006, 08:22 AM
$9,500,000,000 - that's just sitting around in cash with no long term debt. I think Apple's got plenty of "stamina"...


31,100,000,000 is alot of stamina too, I remember when m$oft got in the gaming console business there was a lot of this talk, now look at them, they sell the thing for a loss. Now imagine if they did that for the zune, a 60gb video capable for $150.00. Something to think about.........

Windowlicker
Jul 28, 2006, 08:26 AM
It's too late for Microsoft - they are just riding Apple's coattails now, in a desperate attempt to create something that can compete with iTunes+iPod...but thats all it is, a desperate attempt :eek:

Remember MS has a big pile of cash for marketing and windows install base is also huge. So this product will probably succeed in a way or another.

Is it gonna beat iPod? Who knows, but it will be hard.

jaxstate
Jul 28, 2006, 08:27 AM
I agree. I like MS strategy. They want to get their foot in the door and compete, then sell you all kinds of other ish. Look at the XBOX/XBOX 360, they may sell them at a loss, but with the Software, XBOX Live, and the Marketplace, they are making their money.
31,100,000,000 is alot of stamina too, I remember when m$oft got in the gaming console business there was a lot of this talk, now look at them, they sell the thing for a loss. Now imagine if they did that for the zune, a 60gb video capable for $150.00. Something to think about.........

Porchland
Jul 28, 2006, 08:28 AM
If the hints are any indication, I think Apple may be getting ready to one-up Zune before Zune hits the ground.

* iTMS has been featuring Woody Allen, M. Night Shyamalan, and a "Clerks 2" celebrity playlist since Tuesday. All three are related to current releases. iTMS had an exclusive clip of "Superman Returns" and a Brandom Routh celebrity playlist several weeks ago. (Fred Armisen from "SNL" had a celebrity playlist the week before "SNL" became available on iTMS.)

* Warner Brothers television shows were added to the store this week, so all but one of the major studios (Columbia/Sony) that make movies and television shows are represented in the TV Shows store.

* WWDC starts in 10 days. (I know; it's a developers conference and not a consumer conference like Macworld, but it's a major platform.)

* No new iPod so far this year, so it's about time for a new one. The previous rumors had been that a movie store won't arrive without a new wide-format device for playing video content.

* Recent rumors of book publishers prepping material for an iTunes bookstore, which would only make sure for a larger iPod device.

* Apple is running an iPod nano promo, which may indicate that they're thinning the stock. (A new video-capable device wouldn't be the nano, but Apple may want the marketing pop of reintroducing all of the iPod lines at once.)

I know that's a lot of random things to string together, but everyone knows that Apple will eventually launch a movie store and a handheld movie player. I'm just saying there's a lot of evidence that it may happen before Zune gets out of the box.

Also, Apple's new content announcement from E! Entertainment this week really makes me hopeful that Apple is working with Comcast to integrate iTMS with an HD on-demand service. (Comcast is the majority owner of E!) I could see an arrangement where you download a movie on iTMS and get to view it on an Apple-branded Comcast on Demand service.

kevin.rivers
Jul 28, 2006, 08:29 AM
Really depends on yoru defintion of success. Popularity wise it's been successful (360 is helped solely by the fact it's the only HD player out there right now) but as far as the stock holders and business men are concerned it's been a debacle - they've lost hundreds of millions of dollars in the XBox and have still yet to see a single positve quarter, financially speaking, since it's inception.

News Flash. The 360 does NOT play any HD. They are working on an add on HD DVD, but it is not out. Therefore no HD. So the sole thing that the 360 is helped by doesn't exist.

beg_ne
Jul 28, 2006, 08:31 AM
I'm curious. Are they really allowed to do this kind of stuff under their Monopoly status? I would think that, "Breaking into a market and losing Billions of dollars to crush your competition and former 'partners' while sustaining your product on your Monopoly money". Might be against some restriction they have. Am I just nuts or is someone asleep at the wheel.

As for their partners I think I'll be lining up for my lawsuit about now. Especially since I'm sure they have to pay to be "PlaysForSure" compliant, and may have shown MS their Software, Hardware and Music Stores in intimate detail to get that compliancy. In one way or another their money and knowledge in part will fund the very thing that MS will try to crush them with.

Dr.Gargoyle
Jul 28, 2006, 08:36 AM
Too many features can be a bad thing. I remember guy back in college... He always had the latest and greatest gadgets. Cell phone and beeper on his belt, you know they type. ***** tool.
Almost everybody have a cellphone these days. Add a iPod to that and possibly even a pocket pc and we all look like that poor dweeb. I doubt toolbelts filled with gadgets ever will make it as a fashion statement.
As you said yourself: As long as the iPod keeps it's position as the "cool" MP3 player, they will be just fine.
IMO, Apple needs to integrate the "must haves" in the iPod, or they will soon loose the "cool factor".

rxse7en
Jul 28, 2006, 08:37 AM
News Flash. The 360 does NOT play any HD. They are working on an add on HD DVD, but it is not out. Therefore no HD. So the sole thing that the HD DVD is helped by doesn't exist.
That's not entirely true. The Xbox 360 doesn't play HD-DVDs, but it does upscale standard dvds to 720p. http://www.avforums.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-256882.html

Better link:
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/xbox360/physics.htm

Stella
Jul 28, 2006, 08:42 AM
Never too late.

Isn't that what people said when Apple released the iPod - its too late... Now look.

It's too late for Microsoft - they are just riding Apple's coattails now, in a desperate attempt to create something that can compete with iTunes+iPod...but thats all it is, a desperate attempt :eek:

kevin.rivers
Jul 28, 2006, 08:42 AM
That's not entirely true. The Xbox 360 doesn't play HD-DVDs, but it does upscale standard dvds to 720p. http://www.avforums.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-256882.html

Better link:
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/xbox360/physics.htm

The OP statement was that the 360 was the only HD player on the market right now. Which clearly isn't true. Upscaling isn't HD in my book. But that is me.

hyperpasta
Jul 28, 2006, 08:45 AM
While this could influence Apple's stock, the vast majority of America will never hear about it enough to remember it. All they know is that they want an "iPod", and even if Best Buy tries to sell them a Zune instead, they'll get the original.

However, Apple should try to combat it, because that's an even better way to make sure the Zune has no impact: make the iPod better!

Yvan256
Jul 28, 2006, 08:49 AM
Don't discount microsoft - they have money to lose for years in trying to get #1 for MP3 - slowly they creep up and overturn Apple - apple doesn't ahve the same stamina.

A long term commitment, not a short term thing.

That's what worries me. They don't get #1 by being the best, they get to #1 because they can lose money for years and drive the competition to the ground. Look at the Xbox and Xbox 360 as a perfect example. They're still in the red, no a single cent of profit from the two consoles.

mlrproducts
Jul 28, 2006, 08:51 AM
Why doesn't everyone copy the AACs from all of their iTunes purchasing friends. Have those friends authorize that machine, and then go buy a ZOOM or whatever. Let MS scan for purchased tracks, and then pay $100's in licensing fees for the one purchased zoon. Then, pass the zuun onto a friend so they can do the same.

Only available once? Resell on eBay and at least that is 1 less new one being purchased and produced. (Plus then THEY'LL be pissed they can't get all their itunes songs in zuun format for free, haha!)

rxse7en
Jul 28, 2006, 08:56 AM
The OP statement was that the 360 was the only HD player on the market right now. Which clearly isn't true. Upscaling isn't HD in my book. But that is me.

I think the OP was talking about game play in HD. I've tried the component HD cable for my PS2 on my plasma HDTV and it's nicer, but it's only 480p at best, depending on the title. I use an upscaling DVD player that outputs to 1080i and though it is HD, it still doesn't have the image data of a true HD title. The only time I've been able to see REAL HD is through my DishTV HD programming--again, depending on the source--or connecting a Mac to the plasma and viewing Apple's HD trailers. You're right though, the HD content still isn't readily available.

Read a rumor about MS dropping the price of the 360 by $100 for the holidays to help combat the release of the PS3. That would put it almost half the price of the PS3!

Yvan256
Jul 28, 2006, 08:59 AM
I agree. I like MS strategy. They want to get their foot in the door and compete, then sell you all kinds of other ish. Look at the XBOX/XBOX 360, they may sell them at a loss, but with the Software, XBOX Live, and the Marketplace, they are making their money.

Wrong. The Xbox division still hasn't made a cent of profit. That's with the Xbox/Xbox 360 and everything related to it.

That's not entirely true. The Xbox 360 doesn't play HD-DVDs, but it does upscale standard dvds to 720p. http://www.avforums.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-256882.html

Better link:
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/xbox360/physics.htm

So what? That doesn't make it an HD-DVD player. And if you think the Xbox 360 is the only piece of hardware that can upscale standard DVDs to 720p, think again.

The only thing helping the Xbox 360 right now is the fact that it's the only next-gen console on the market right now.


Never too late.

Isn't that what people said when Apple released the iPod - its too late... Now look.

Well, when Apple released the iPod, MP3 players were still a niche market with mostly tech-oriented buyers. Just like Microsoft grabbed the market in the early days of personnal computing and has the biggest share today, maybe Microsoft will have to be happy with a 10-15% MP3 player marketshare in 5-10 years.

MP3 player = iPod, just like personnal computer = PC = Windows these days.

kevin.rivers
Jul 28, 2006, 09:07 AM
Here is my take on this.

Apple has this market wrapped up. People don't know what an MP3 player is, they know what an iPod is.

Those who love the Zune are hypocrites. Everyone hates the iPod. Why? Inferior everything. Plus you are locked into the iPod/iTunes/iTMS and can't do what you want with your music.

Now, MS is doing the same thing. And everyone praises it. They are pulling the same add campaign as Sandisk was. Conforming isn't cool, don't be a sheep. If everyone starts buying a Zune aren't you still a sheep if you buy it? Not to mention they are dumping PlaysForSure, the DRM they helped build, and screwing tons of people who have bought PFS music already. Not to mention screwing their partners.

The fact that the will buy you out of iTunes shows what kind of game they are playing. They don't care about consumers, all they care about is winning. All I can say is they are 5 years late to the ball game. Good luck.

Also, it is slated that the big Zune will be $399, with a nice feature set including bluetooth, wifi, 30GB, big screen, etc.

Apple will release new ipods. If they will replace the current iPods or be a new product I am not sure. But we expect them to be the true video iPod. In which case it will have more capacity and the same feature set if not more for the same price. With the brand recognition it has already they will surely win.

rxse7en
Jul 28, 2006, 09:07 AM
So what? That doesn't make it an HD-DVD player. And if you think the Xbox 360 is the only piece of hardware that can upscale standard DVDs to 720p, think again.

The only thing helping the Xbox 360 right now is the fact that it's the only next-gen console on the market right now.

I clearly state it's not an HD-DVD player, nor do I say it's the only upscaling "player" out there. It IS the only game console that upscales standard DVDs at this point though.

rekahs
Jul 28, 2006, 09:07 AM
This sounds just like what they said with Xbox. They want it to do something new, they expect it to be the next big thing, and it's gonna take a few years. I think once Wii is released, we'll see 360 take a market dive just like 360 did, and Zune may well face the same fate.


surely if you look at it that way the ipod is in the position the 360 is in and the zune is like the wii.

however i really dont think microsoft will ever be able to compete.

they're fighting against a huge marketshare.
and ms will never be as "cool" as apple.

apple would have to do alot wrong to lose their position now.

as for microsoft calling it a "long-term project"
yeah...long-term like getting vista working?

Yvan256
Jul 28, 2006, 09:12 AM
I clearly state it's not an HD-DVD player, nor do I say it's the only upscaling "player" out there. It IS the only game console that upscales standard DVDs at this point though.

And you really think this is a major factor for people buying a 400$CAD - 500$CAD game console?

Upscaling DVDs to 720p is something I expect from those 30$CAD no-name DVD players in about 6 months.

rxse7en
Jul 28, 2006, 09:19 AM
And you really think this is a major factor for people buying a 400$CAD - 500$CAD game console?

Upscaling DVDs to 720p is something I expect from those 30$CAD no-name DVD players in about 6 months.

No, I wasn't even discussing what SHOULD BE included. I was discussing what was stated regarding the current situation of consoles and HD. What aren't you understanding?

Chris Bangle
Jul 28, 2006, 09:20 AM
It seems that nobody ever likes anything successful.. Look at poor mcdonalds,coca cola,Ford and now apple and its ipod.... All the biggest comapanies always get in trouble. BMW and their idrive, ford and the firestone blowouts, apple and hearing loss... while dont people stop being jealous and peee off.

sconnor99
Jul 28, 2006, 09:22 AM
Once again the drones at Microsoft can't come up with anything new so they spend all their money trying to muscle in on something someone else had the vision to create. I hope they fail big time.

By the time M$ get any sort of marketshare Apple will be onto something new and innovative that that Big Bill will have to throw even more $$$ down the drain to catch up.

Jobs must be laughing his A*** off, he's forced M$ to create something that's going to lose them money, whilst Apple turns a tidy profit on each iPod sold!

Stella
Jul 28, 2006, 09:23 AM
It seems that nobody ever likes anything successful.. Look at poor mcdonalds,coca cola,Ford and now apple and its ipod.... All the biggest comapanies always get in trouble. BMW and their idrive, ford and the firestone blowouts, apple and hearing loss... while dont people stop being jealous and peee off.

Ford and GM problems are their own fault - they don't produce fuel efficient cards - in north america - other ( non u.s ) manufacturers do - and they are reaping the benefits - whilst oil prices are high.

Once again the drones at Microsoft can't come up with anything new so they spend all their money trying to muscle in on something someone else had the vision to create. I hope they fail big time.

By the time M$ get any sort of marketshare Apple will be onto something new and innovative that that Big Bill will have to throw even more $$$ down the drain to catch up.

Jobs must be laughing his A*** off, he's forced M$ to create something that's going to lose them money, whilst Apple turns a tidy profit on each iPod sold!

What, your saying that Apple should have the MP3 market to itself, no one else can try and muscle in - its called competition, and competition is heathly. Apple entered the MP3 market when people thought it was already saturated... this is a case of double standards, in afraid. :-\

Dunepilot
Jul 28, 2006, 09:24 AM
[QUOTE=rekahs]surely if you look at it that way the ipod is in the position the 360 is in and the zune is like the wii.

QUOTE]

Except that the wii is being marketed on the basis that it will bring something innovative to the table. If there's one thing Microsoft doesn't understand, its innovation/ease of use/elegance.

Yvan256
Jul 28, 2006, 09:25 AM
No, I wasn't even discussing what SHOULD BE included. I was discussing what was stated regarding the current situation of consoles and HD. What aren't you understanding?

My mistake, sorry. I got mixed-up between your replies to kevin.rivers, who replied to bigmc6000...

Really depends on yoru defintion of success. Popularity wise it's been successful (360 is helped solely by the fact it's the only HD player out there right now)

Maybe he meant "the only high-def console" on the market right now with the PS3 still a few months away?

junker
Jul 28, 2006, 09:26 AM
What aren't you understanding?


LOL!

He's Canadian!! just kidding...

playaj82
Jul 28, 2006, 09:27 AM
iTunes, iPod, Music Store, TV Shows, etc.....

Apple's efforts have been just as long term as Microsoft's. Apple just seems more segmented because they don't disclose info ahead of time. Apple had the advantage of being the first with all of these.

Microsoft has no choice, they have to announce we will be able to do this stuff or nobody will listen. In reality, all of these endeavors require a long term effort because you need partners to really entrench the product.

The iPod is special because you have thousands of companies and products that have brought it so deep, people can't get out.

Switch from iPod, you Beemer can't play your new MP3 Player
Switch from iPod, all your other accessories become obsolete.

Microsoft must follow this path or the Zune will never have an effect. Unless they focus on a 5 year or 7 year plan with this product, it will flop for sure.

Buschmaster
Jul 28, 2006, 09:31 AM
"We're not just introducing Zune to do the same thing other people do,"
Well that certainly isn't what Microsoft is about...

All of a sudden they're going to be innovative? What the hell? It's going to be a combination of every player on the market but you can probably plug it into your XBox to have it charge.:rolleyes: I hope it costs like a thousand dollars.

Tymmz
Jul 28, 2006, 09:36 AM
It seems that nobody ever likes anything successful.. Look at poor mcdonalds,coca cola,Ford and now apple and its ipod.... All the biggest comapanies always get in trouble. BMW and their idrive, ford and the firestone blowouts, apple and hearing loss... while dont people stop being jealous and peee off.

I think, if big companies or successful products are being "attacked" it's because a lot of people are using their products and at a certain point those companies have to have a much bigger responsibility towards the enduser.

Because as more people are using the iPod as more people are in danger using it the wrong way and suffer from hearing loss.

Of course a lot of people sue big companies just for the sake of money and in North America the whole thing got out of hand, but I believe, that big companies have to make sure that people don't get hurt because of their products.

-> Bigger influence of a product means way more responsibility for the company, because the chances, that the product hurts someone, raises.

poor McDonald's, poor Coca Cola, yeah, right! We don't want discuss this topic.

(sorry if my english is kinda bad, just got back to england)

Chaszmyr
Jul 28, 2006, 09:36 AM
surely if you look at it that way the ipod is in the position the 360 is in and the zune is like the wii.

I think you missed the point. I wasn't comparing the iPod to the 360 and the Zune to the Wii.

I was comparing the Zune project to the Xbox project, and the iPod to the Xbox's competitors.

Yvan256
Jul 28, 2006, 09:37 AM
iTunes, iPod, Music Store, TV Shows, etc.....

Apple's efforts have been just as long term as Microsoft's. Apple just seems more segmented because they don't disclose info ahead of time. Apple had the advantage of being the first with all of these.

In think the main point of view of many people here is that when Microsoft makes long-term plans, it's because they're planning to drive the competition to the ground with the help of a big pile of cash instead of innovation and good products.

The fact that they started this whole new thing by dropping their own PlaysForSure DRM isn't a good indicator (for the users AND commercial partners - they have to switch hardware again).

Apple, on the other hand, has switched three times (68K->PPC, OS 9->OS X, PPC->Intel) and has always tried to keep compatibility with the previous system. A first generation iPod can play iTMS-bought tunes, too (unless I'm mistaken).

rxse7en
Jul 28, 2006, 09:43 AM
My mistake, sorry. I got mixed-up between your replies to kevin.rivers, who replied to bigmc6000...



Maybe he meant "the only high-def console" on the market right now with the PS3 still a few months away?


No sweat. :D

Personally, I'd hope that the new gaming consoles--read PS3--would offer some DIVX playback too. I have a Samsung HT-q70 that upscales to 1080i over HDMI and it has a USB port on the front that allows you to plug an external drive into it and it plays VCD, DVD, DIVX, MPEG 2 & 4. That would be a nice simple feature that can be added to these consoles that would make them more useful as a media center.

B

milo
Jul 28, 2006, 09:48 AM
Really depends on yoru defintion of success. Popularity wise it's been successful (360 is helped solely by the fact it's the only HD player out there right now) but as far as the stock holders and business men are concerned it's been a debacle - they've lost hundreds of millions of dollars in the XBox and have still yet to see a single positve quarter, financially speaking, since it's inception.

360's main advantage is that it's the only console of the three to release the next generation version. They have a year's head start on the other two.

They're still losing money on the 360, but component costs will drop until they are making a profit on boxes. Don't forget, ALL consoles lose money when they first ship. With the original xbox, they never really caught up, but it looks like they will this time around. And with the PS3 shipping at an even higher price, there's less pressure for them to drop prices. As much money as MS has been losing, Sony stands to lose much more. If Sony doesn't get their act together, I could see MS and Nintendo driving Sony out of the video game business.

I agree. I like MS strategy. They want to get their foot in the door and compete, then sell you all kinds of other ish. Look at the XBOX/XBOX 360, they may sell them at a loss, but with the Software, XBOX Live, and the Marketplace, they are making their money.

That's the goal, but so far they have yet to get out of the red on xbox and 360. And "ish"? You seriously just said that?

The OP statement was that the 360 was the only HD player on the market right now. Which clearly isn't true. Upscaling isn't HD in my book. But that is me.

It does play GAMES at HD resolutions, right? The original post never said it plays HD dvd's.

etoiles
Jul 28, 2006, 09:56 AM
Competition is good...

kevin.rivers
Jul 28, 2006, 09:59 AM
360's main advantage is that it's the only console of the three to release the next generation version. They have a year's head start on the other two.

They're still losing money on the 360, but component costs will drop until they are making a profit on boxes. Don't forget, ALL consoles lose money when they first ship. With the original xbox, they never really caught up, but it looks like they will this time around. And with the PS3 shipping at an even higher price, there's less pressure for them to drop prices. As much money as MS has been losing, Sony stands to lose much more. If Sony doesn't get their act together, I could see MS and Nintendo driving Sony out of the video game business.



That's the goal, but so far they have yet to get out of the red on xbox and 360. And "ish"? You seriously just said that?



It does play GAMES at HD resolutions, right? The original post never said it plays HD dvd's.


Then it is an HD CONSOLE not an HD PLAYER. Player implies HD media.

playaj82
Jul 28, 2006, 10:04 AM
In think the main point of view of many people here is that when Microsoft makes long-term plans, it's because they're planning to drive the competition to the ground with the help of a big pile of cash instead of innovation and good products.

The fact that they started this whole new thing by dropping their own PlaysForSure DRM isn't a good indicator (for the users AND commercial partners - they have to switch hardware again).

Apple, on the other hand, has switched three times (68K->PPC, OS 9->OS X, PPC->Intel) and has always tried to keep compatibility with the previous system. A first generation iPod can play iTMS-bought tunes, too (unless I'm mistaken).

I tend to agree with you, but that is just business, and Microsoft is good at it.
If we want to point fingers, point them at the consumers.
The only reason Microsoft still pours money into things is because people will still buy their products.

Competition is just as much about monopoly as it is about necessity. People could say that Apple is using their marketshare to push around accessory makers and by emphasizing their "Made for iPod" label to rake in some extra cash solely because of their position.

Microsoft also uses their position of having a large amount of disposable cash. If their product sucks, people won't buy it, and Microsoft suffers.

Yvan256
Jul 28, 2006, 10:05 AM
Don't forget, ALL consoles lose money when they first ship.

Nintendo never sold any console at a loss.


I tend to agree with you, but that is just business, and Microsoft is good at it. If we want to point fingers, point them at the consumers. The only reason Microsoft still pours money into things is because people will still buy their products. Microsoft also uses their position of having a large amount of disposable cash. If their product sucks, people won't buy it, and Microsoft suffers.

If that were true, Microsoft would never have been able to survive after Windows 95.

If a product sucks but almost everyone else is using it, most people will use it too.

milo
Jul 28, 2006, 10:07 AM
Then it is an HD CONSOLE not an HD PLAYER. Player implies HD media.

I don't know about that. You should probably just ask the OP for clarification, it's possible you're just misunderstanding his choice of words.

Nintendo never sold any console at a loss.

Really? What's your source on that?

Buschmaster
Jul 28, 2006, 10:11 AM
Wooooow, we're straying off topic.

Back to the topic...

Don't you guys think that the iPod being overtaken is about as likely as Apple overtaking HP, Dell, and Gateway?

I just don't see it happening, Apple has a really high following when it comes to mp3 players and when people have had an iPod, they upgrade to a new iPod, not a Zune.

supafly1703
Jul 28, 2006, 10:13 AM
I wonder if they have appropriated another $4 BILLION to blow in an effort to overtake a market leader a la XBox...

kevin.rivers
Jul 28, 2006, 10:14 AM
Wooooow, we're straying off topic.

Back to the topic...

Don't you guys think that the iPod being overtaken is about as likely as Apple overtaking HP, Dell, and Gateway?

I just don't see it happening, Apple has a really high following when it comes to mp3 players and when people have had an iPod, they upgrade to a new iPod, not a Zune.

There is no incentive to go to a Zune. Same DRM, same features. The people who hate the iPod and buy Creative aren't switching to Zune. They don't want to be locked into DRM. So unless microsoft really does something innovative it is just another player in a sea of non-iPods.

EDIT: I mean same DRM in the sense that the download are locked by DRM, not exactly the same type.

wedge antilies
Jul 28, 2006, 10:21 AM
I agree. I like MS strategy. They want to get their foot in the door and compete, then sell you all kinds of other ish. Look at the XBOX/XBOX 360, they may sell them at a loss, but with the Software, XBOX Live, and the Marketplace, they are making their money.

No they are still not making money....From a Forbes article 2005/09/12..

linkypoo (http://www.forbes.com/home/technology/2005/09/12/microsoft-management-software_cz_vm_0913microsoft.html)

"The Xbox game console is hot, but its division has lost $4 billion in four years and isn't yet in the black."

And as for the success of the XBox 360 from bink.nu (july 23)

bink link (http://bink.nu/Article7827.bink)

"Microsoft's Home and Entertainment division, home to the Xbox, posted a hefty fiscal year loss of $1.26 billion, thanks largely to losses involved with the Xbox 360. For Microsoft's fourth quarter, losses in the Home and Entertainment division were $414 million. Microsoft says they have shipped 5 million Xbox 360 units worldwide as of the end of June, roughly seven and a half months after launch."

Having said that I do own a Xbox, and will probably buy an Xbox 360 when Halo 3 comes out. And a PS3. And a Wii.

The fact is the Xbox 360 really isn't sellilng that well outside the US, where it has sold 3.3 mil units, in Europe it has sold only 1.3 mil, and more embarrasingly only 0.4 mil in the rest of the world INCLUDING Japan. In fact for the week ending 16th July only 1105 Xbox 360s were sold in Japan, compared to 140,858 DS LItes, and less than one tenth of the sales of the DS phat and less than one twentieth of the PS2, during the same time.

Microsofts home and entertainment division just lost $414million in the last quarter!

I just don't think you should say that the Xbox has been a success, it is possible, however success is a long way off.

-Red 2.

Yvan256
Jul 28, 2006, 10:24 AM
There is no incentive to go to a Zune. Same DRM, same features. The people who hate the iPod and buy Creative aren't switching to Zune. They don't want to be locked into DRM. So unless microsoft really does something innovative it is just another player in a sea of non-iPods.

EDIT: I mean same DRM in the sense that the download are locked by DRM, not exactly the same type.

That's the funny thing, though. You're not locked into DRM with the iPod. You don't need an iTMS to use your iPod, just iTunes. It plays standard MP3 files and non-DRM'ed AAC files.

rxse7en
Jul 28, 2006, 10:24 AM
There is no incentive to go to a Zune. Same DRM, same features. THe people who hate the iPod and buy Creative aren't switching to Zune. They don't want to be locked into DRM. So unless microsoft really does something innovative it is just another player in a sea of non-iPods.

That's a good point. I think people are happy with what's available to them and I'm not so sure that an all-encompassing portable media device is ncessary. I've had 4g ipod for a couple of years now. Use it at the gym and when mowing the lawn. I don't think I'm the typical iPod user, but how much portable entertainment is too much? I always thought Walkmen and iPods were a little antisocial, people tend to shut themselves in. I think MS would be better off creating the next media paradigm.

B

Stella
Jul 28, 2006, 10:38 AM
How can you possibly make that statement - that no one is switching to Zune ( or will switch to )

Zune isn't out yet!!!

There is no incentive to go to a Zune. Same DRM, same features. The people who hate the iPod and buy Creative aren't switching to Zune. They don't want to be locked into DRM. So unless microsoft really does something innovative it is just another player in a sea of non-iPods.

EDIT: I mean same DRM in the sense that the download are locked by DRM, not exactly the same type.

kevin.rivers
Jul 28, 2006, 10:40 AM
That's the funny thing, though. You're not locked into DRM with the iPod. You don't need an iTMS to use your iPod, just iTunes. It plays standard MP3 files and non-DRM'ed AAC files.

If you want to buy music online, you ARE locked into to DRM. Which is what people hate about the iPod/iTMS model.

If you have your own MP3's great. In that regard MS and Apple will be the same. Apple does however offer an end to end solution. That is what MS wants. They don't want to just have a player. THey want to offer music for download online, and with your purchase you get a full slab of DRM.

So no, it is not the funny thing. Unless MS starts wrapping DRM into your ripped collection. There is no advantage to buying an iPod over a Zune. Which is bad for MS because there is already tons millions if iPod users to sway.

I don't think they will get them with the, share files over WiFi but I guess they could...

kevin.rivers
Jul 28, 2006, 10:42 AM
How can you possibly make that statement - that no one is switching to Zune ( or will switch to )

Zune isn't out yet!!!


If you hated DRM would you switch to a Zune? It is common sense. MS is doing the same thing that Apple is. And people already hate the iPod... Besides you have nothing else to offer to this besides a play on words?

Chris Bangle
Jul 28, 2006, 10:44 AM
I reckon the zune will be in the same situation as the sony clie. Its gonna be an amazing product with a million more features than an ipod, but will millions of people buy. Just as sony couldnt compete with palm, microsoft cant compete with apple, but the xbox is very impressive for a software company so im not going to underestimate microsoft.

sam10685
Jul 28, 2006, 10:47 AM
I hate the name Zune.

it reminds me of the month June, but with a Z instead. no way is M$ going to come up with a product that even remotely rivals the iPod.

kevin.rivers
Jul 28, 2006, 10:47 AM
I reckon the zune will be in the same situation as the sony clie. Its gonna be an amazing product with a million more features than an ipod, but will millions of people buy. Just as sony couldnt compete with palm, microsoft cant compete with apple, but the xbox is very impressive for a software company so im not going to underestimate microsoft.

I am getting tired of feature after feature that no one needs. It makes the devices overcomplicated and moe expensive.

I don't need WiFi in an MP3 player. But since MS will have, Apple will have to add it in order to compete. Thank god they haven't added the FM tuner into the player. Which everyone seems to want...:confused:

Stella
Jul 28, 2006, 10:51 AM
If you hated DRM would you switch to a Zune? It is common sense. MS is doing the same thing that Apple is. And people already hate the iPod...

DRM is a evil necessity - and one that isn't going to go away - we must live with

I would be able to use more than one music store... and from my point of view - is a great benefit. If one music store doesn't have the music I want to buy - maybe another does?

( And please, don't tell me to burn -> rip - its slow and unconvenient )

kevin.rivers
Jul 28, 2006, 10:57 AM
DRM is a evil necessity - and one that isn't going to go away - we must live with

I would be able to use more than one music store... and from my point of view - is a great benefit. If one music store doesn't have the music I want to buy - maybe another does?

( And please, don't tell me to burn -> rip - its slow and unconvenient )

I am by no means saying DRM is not necessary. This is what some people hate though. I understand it is necessary and have no problem with it. I personally choose to buy and rip. Mainly because of quality.

DRM is great. I am just giving another side of the argument.

zync
Jul 28, 2006, 11:03 AM
When Microsoft claim that their investment might not pay off for five years, they're paving the way for failure. For the next two or three years, when pressed about the lack of profits, they can claim that the payoff will be in a couple of years from then. They won't have to actually admit that they've failed until after 2010. It's not dissimilar to Bill Gates claiming that there's an 80% chance of Vista shipping on time, it sounds positive, but few people believe it actually will ship in January. It's just paving the way for the next excuse.

It's very important that Microsoft try very hard with Zune. They keep claiming that the iPod succeeded simply because of slick marketing, whereas everybody else knows that it succeeded by being an attractive proposition, combining style with ease of use. It was word-of-mouth publicity that really worked for the iPod. You can't buy that, it added massive value to the money that was spent on advertising.

So here's Microsoft's opportunity to look at the last five years of the iPod, together with three years of iTMS, take it all in and apply their 'innovation', show us the ultimate product and then spend a fortune marketing it. There must be no doubt that Microsoft must be seen to throw everything into this project. Then Steve Jobs will be delighted to rise to the challenge and delight in humiliating Bill Gates.

I really like that last paragraph, lol. I seriously doubt they'll even pose competition. There was an image that was supposedly an actual Zune player, and if it is it's already paving the road for failure.

Honestly Microsoft will fail, and it's not because they are going to take forever to show anyone anything. Microsoft will fail because it doesn't understand the demographic it is trying to produce a product for. Microsoft may cater to business and such, but in the eyes of teenagers, many of whom are anti-establishment, Microsoft is simply not cool. Not only is Microsoft uncool, it doesn't understand what IS cool.

Meanwhile, Apple is a huge corporation, and yet even people who hate large corporation love Apple. Apple knows how to market. Apple continuously sets the standard for good design year in, year out.

Steve Jobs is cool. He's funny. Most people just think Bill Gates, though simply a figurehead now, is the devil (despite that recent huge charitable donation). Steve Ballmer is an oaf. Microsoft has neither the image or the talent to fight this battle. Hell, they've even started to slowly lose the grip on the industry that once held them so dear—business computing.

mozmac
Jul 28, 2006, 11:05 AM
A.K.A...."If Zune fails, you can't bash us in the media. We told you it wasn't going to be successful." And then when it's still unsuccessful after five years, they'll be like, "Forget about Zune, look at this new operating system we're releasing this year. It's called Vista. It has this new search feature called Floodlight. When you search for something it instantly floods you with results from your hard drive."

cgriff44
Jul 28, 2006, 11:31 AM
There are many reasons why I think MIcrosoft's efforts are not going to top Apple:

First off....Zune? WTF is Zune? What meaning does it have? Just from the name it sounds like they are trying way too hard. At least iPod works in conjunction to Apple's other line of products and it makes sense. Zune isn't even a word. iPod is a much friendly and cooler name than Zune.

Second, the Zune looks like a cheap knockoff of the iPod, and its already been deemed the "iPod Killer". Ok, you aren't going to kill the iPod by imitating it. Knockoffs are never cooler than the original. Plus we are talking about Microsoft here, when is the last time they ever did any innovation in the computing industry?

Third off, since they suck at innovating and all they can do is immitate, they will always be one step behind Apple and Apple is already years ahead of them and have a stronghold on the music download industry.

But, I'll invite Zune into the market. Since Apple doesn't really have any competition this could create enough competition to make the iPod lineup even better than they arlready are.

mozmac
Jul 28, 2006, 11:51 AM
Microsoft sounds like it wants to start a revolution in the music industry, but they don't know how to do it. And besides, the music industry just went through a revolution with Apple, so consumers don't want to go through it again.

A part of me wants to say Microsoft should just stay out because they have no experience, but look at the spalsh they made with the Xbox. People said the same thing to Microsoft back then. The video game market was crowded and seemingly had no room for another player, especially one who eats Rabbit poo for breakfast, but somehow M$ muscled its way in there. I just don't see the same thing happening this time with Zune-i-wanna-go-stick-my-hand-in-a-crocodile's-mouth.

Hunabku
Jul 28, 2006, 12:01 PM
Honestly Microsoft will fail, and it's not because they are going to take forever to show anyone anything. Microsoft will fail because it doesn't understand the demographic it is trying to produce a product for. Microsoft may cater to business and such, but in the eyes of teenagers, many of whom are anti-establishment, Microsoft is simply not cool. Not only is Microsoft uncool, it doesn't understand what IS cool.


True, but as i have send in a previous thread about MS, the people behind their XBox division are actually "cool" and creative and MS is said to be giving them lots of freedom. Let's not wholeheartly disregard our competition here - even though it feels good to do so!

mattk39
Jul 28, 2006, 12:02 PM
Because of their money ? :confused:

In what is shaping up to be a clash between computer titans, many are keeping close watch to see whether Microsoft will break through or break down (http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/20060728/microsoft-zune-apple-ipod.htm) in the face of iPod dominance.

Applechild
Jul 28, 2006, 12:08 PM
Never too late.

Isn't that what people said when Apple released the iPod - its too late... Now look.

I'ts too late;)

OhEsTen
Jul 28, 2006, 12:13 PM
Had Apple licensed FP a year ago like a lot of people were begging... they probably would have had to license it to MS. MS then could - nay.....would have used it to try to beat them with this cheesie spin-off....

Apple's dominance in the mp3 player market is legal - everytime someone declares an "iPod-Killer" Apple steps up to the plate... they don't try to keep these companies from competing with them.

MS on the other hand is already announcing how they intend to "win" the mp3 player battle....by operating at a loss for a few years - that is not leagal and yes someone at the DOJ is dead asleep.

Apple is stale right now - so this new competitor is good - they need to step up and blow away their current line of iPods with a completely new device. Remember, thats what they did with the iPod mini. EVERYONE was copying the mini, then when all these companies had their mini look-alikes Apple totally changes it. Apple is waiting now for MS to actually release this thing, then watch - they will totally blow away the iPod with a new design...

_______________________________________
See this movie (http://www.sonyclassics.com/whywefight)

quigleybc
Jul 28, 2006, 12:18 PM
Now is really the time for Apple to go all out and move in on MS....

If I were Steve, I would be cranking out products, and really pushing hard to get stuff like a full on Mac media center, next gen iPods, iPhones, iTablets ect. ect..

Just because MS is kind of in limbo right now, not really doing anything big, Gates just stepped down...now is the time to really move in on their territory.

Maybe that's exactly what they're doing, but it seems like the big product announcements have dropped off completley....the last big announcement was the Macbook, which was a no brainer...high fi ect....

Hopefully they are all going mad scientist in the Apple labs cooking something really special up, and are just going to unload them all at once....we'll see...

Jayrod
Jul 28, 2006, 12:18 PM
Microsoft has waited WAY too long to make any type of impact on the portable music device industry. iPod has been around now for too long, and has too strong of a grip on the marketshare for anyone to try to threaten their hold. This Zune thing will have to have some aspect to it that is totally it's own for anyone to take any notice to it whatsoever.

playaj82
Jul 28, 2006, 12:40 PM
Microsoft has waited WAY too long to make any type of impact on the portable music device industry. iPod has been around now for too long, and has too strong of a grip on the marketshare for anyone to try to threaten their hold. This Zune thing will have to have some aspect to it that is totally it's own for anyone to take any notice to it whatsoever.

It has something unique, look at all the press covering it now, and how many of us are talking about it.

VanNess
Jul 28, 2006, 12:42 PM
Copying someone else stuff isn't competing. It's a strategy, but as business strategy targeting the iPod market, it's practically a non-starter as many potential "competitors" (including Microsoft) have already found out. DRM seems to be more of an issue with some tech journals than with the general public. Tens of millions of iPods have been sold, and the iTunes music store is well on it's way to posting another billion songs sold milestone. The anti-DRM arguments don't seem to be resonating in those numbers.

At this point, I don't see anyone else mounting a formidable run at the iPod market, unless they can come with something truly unique, something smart, something that just reeks of must-have desirability and not just like the iPod has now, but even more so. That's what's at stake. So does Microsoft have the answer? Not apparently. Since Ballmer already envisions five years or so of less than stellar expectations before it's even out in front of the public, what does that tell you about Microsoft's "Zune?"

Already handicapping your yet-to-be released product just isn't a good sign.

millar876
Jul 28, 2006, 01:01 PM
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/1329/mzuneex3.th.jpg (http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mzuneex3.jpg)

"inovative" clunk wheel to navagate
ring of power from 360 shows persentage of bower left 10, 20, 30, and 40+ percent
touch sensative buttons
windows button to access exclusive content pre installed for people wuo buy the premium executive pro vista edition
plays only WMV & WMA for optimal video and audio quality
holds 20,000,000,000 songs (songs encoded at 32kbps mono WMA)
holds 2,000 hours of HQ WMV video (125kbps WMV10)
HD output upto 1080i (requires a PC with windows media center 2005 update rollout 2 and a graphics card capable of displaying HD resolutions)
Ultra high resolution 321x241 display (bigger than the iPod with video's)
ONLY $999.99 (for home lite - value pack with no headphones or software and in an unmarked brown box
*removing pointless and unsightly stickers voids any warrenty and relinquishes all rights should somthing go wrong with this product.

zync
Jul 28, 2006, 01:06 PM
If a product sucks but almost everyone else is using it, most people will use it too.

e.g. myspace...

VanNess
Jul 28, 2006, 01:09 PM
Had Apple licensed FP a year ago like a lot of people were begging... they probably would have had to license it to MS.

The only people begging to license Fairplay were Apple's so-called competitors looking for access to the iPod.

Essentially, they were competitors asking for a free ride into Apple's market (iPods) that Apple alone had carved out, offering nothing more than what Apple was already offering through the iTunes music store (same songs, same price). It was absurd. There was absolutely no incentive for Apple and no benefit to the iPod user. Arguably, less benefit to the iPod user because the iTunes Music store is tightly integrated into iTunes, which is further tightly integrated with the iPod. The other so-called music stores, of course, weren't offering that.

zync
Jul 28, 2006, 01:15 PM
True, but as i have send in a previous thread about MS, the people behind their XBox division are actually "cool" and creative and MS is said to be giving them lots of freedom. Let's not wholeheartly disregard our competition here - even though it feels good to do so!

Also true, but they're not cool enough that people would want to advertise that they have one. That's where Apple is ahead. It's cool to have an iPod, it's cool to have a Mac. I never got compliments on my computer when I had a boring POS Dell.

Yvan256
Jul 28, 2006, 01:21 PM
Unless MS starts wrapping DRM into your ripped collection. There is no advantage to buying an iPod over a Zune. Which is bad for MS because there is already tons millions if iPod users to sway.

I heard that WMP did add DRM to CDs you ripped yourself. Don't know if it's true, though.

Yvan256
Jul 28, 2006, 01:26 PM
"Forget about Zune, look at this new operating system we're releasing this year. It's called Vista. It has this new search feature called Floodlight. When you search for something it instantly floods you with results from your hard drive."

"Floodlight"... good one. :D

CmdrLaForge
Jul 28, 2006, 01:56 PM
Thats typical for M$ and thats why we hate them all....:mad:

sonnys
Jul 28, 2006, 02:11 PM
Once you are a market leader, it's almost impossible to be unseated in that market unless you make a lot of mistakes. It comes down to top-of-mind awareness. When you think portable music, what is the first thing you think about? iPod. 90% of consumers will buy from the brand with the #1 top-of-mind awareness, and it goes down steeply from there.

Apple needs the competition in order to evolve better products, but it's not a huge threat in terms of Apple losing the top spot. It may lose a few points of market share, but it will certainly continue to lead the market no matter how much cash Microsoft throws down. Apple is simply better at marketing, better at making things cool, and those are the two things that have made the iPod a success -- two things that, I might add, Microsoft is terrible at.

I wish Microsoft luck with this, but would advise stockholders to get out now.

mrrory
Jul 28, 2006, 02:22 PM
Have you ever used Pandora.com? (It's pretty awesome)

Not until just now, it's rather amazing! Thanks for the tip!!

RodThePlod
Jul 28, 2006, 02:34 PM
Microsoft has waited WAY too long to make any type of impact on the portable music device industry. iPod has been around now for too long, and has too strong of a grip on the marketshare for anyone to try to threaten their hold. This Zune thing will have to have some aspect to it that is totally it's own for anyone to take any notice to it whatsoever.

I just set up a webpage where you can cast your vote for Zune or iPod. Check out www.will-zune-beat-ipod.com

:D

RodC
--
www.expodition.com - for iPod users who love to travel

DaveGee
Jul 28, 2006, 02:49 PM
It will FAIL!!!!!!! Idiot M$:rolleyes:


But just remember (and don't ever forget), it's not just a "ham sandwich", it's a "HAM Sandwich!" :lol:

D

milo
Jul 28, 2006, 02:54 PM
It has something unique, look at all the press covering it now, and how many of us are talking about it.

Just because it's being talked about doesn't make it unique. So what is unique about it?

And people are only talking about it because it's an announcement from a huge company. Which has nothing to do with whether it will actually sell well or not.

iMikeT
Jul 28, 2006, 03:04 PM
Three to five years to pay off? In that time frame Apple will be miles ahead of Microsoft, as usual. Actually, Apple is currently miles ahead of Microsoft, go figure.

emorydunn
Jul 28, 2006, 03:19 PM
Apple will make new iPods but only with limited new features (maybe a true video iPod, maybe nintendo games) but when the zoon is realeased Apple will realese the MP3 player to end all MP3 players. It will be announced the day be fore the zoon is out then be realese a week later and it bwill have EVERYTHING that we want-- and more. Cell phone thouch screen/ non-touch, pda, widescreen, an IDE for developers. EVERYTHING. And that is that.


And what is up with the name? "Zune" sounds like microsoft tried to access their inner teen (oh wait, all these poeple never had childhoods) Sounds like microseoft tried to make a 'hip' name. and just like the XBOX put a random letter in front of something everybody already knows (but yet another hitch in the plan what the hell is a "une")

inkswamp
Jul 28, 2006, 03:59 PM
$9,500,000,000 - that's just sitting around in cash with no long term debt. I think Apple's got plenty of "stamina"...

Exactly! I don't understand all this doom-and-gloom everytime MS talks about the music download market. They can't even get their friggin' OS out on time and we're supposed to worry that they can take over a highly competitive market that is still too new for anyone but Apple to really get their head around? I think not. Look at the video game market. After several years and two iterations of their precious XBox, they have still made hardly a dent in that market (despite all the headlines it gets, it's still no threat to Nintendo.)

Plus, you have to factor in the seemingly limitless well of great ideas that Apple has at their disposal that MS does not. MS may have a lot more cash to bully their way into the market, but Apple will continuously outfox them on the sheer basis that they have better ideas and are quick to the draw.

And, as if that's not enough, MS is trying to bully their way into many markets simultaneously while holding ground on the ones they dominate, so it's not like they can throw 100% of their assets at the music market. They have a lot of resources, but they are limited and are spread between gaming, Windows, office software, hardware, MSN, their search portal, .NET, Origami/tablet PC, etc. They are not all-powerful, and I think their effort in music will be halfhearted and ultimately unsuccessful.

And you know what else matters? The fact that when Steve Jobs gets up on stage and talks about music, you can tell that he's really passionate about it. He's not just up there to sell tunes. He's a music lover and other music lovers relate to that and appreciate it. It's infectious. And it matters. I've seen MS and other companies talk about music (most often while wearing a suit which is enough to stop you right there) and the way they talk--there's no passion. You can tell that they view it at arms-length, like some kind of commodity, and surround their efforts with insulting marketing campaigns that play down to the lowest common denominator and that does not help.

I don't think Apple has anything to worry about. As long as they keep going, they're fine. I see no reason to think otherwise.

mk_in_mke
Jul 28, 2006, 04:40 PM
Seriously: M$oft has to think about changing their Ad agency... Zune... what did they offer for breakfast to the consumer panel they tested with this name....????

Anyways: remember guys that Apple has all the background when it comes to Itunes+Ipod... They have the knowledge, the technology , the experience and more importantly the tools are way cool... Apple comes with a new Ipod model every 6 months and they know how to create the event...


My only fear: M$oft and the music companies are going to sign deals and this is what could hit Apple very bad... Major labels do not care where the music is bought... Apple... M$oft... the money goes into their pocket... So Apple need to have an idea to keep the Ipod owners their side.... The fact that Apple is proprietary is not a factor...

I predict that the future is bright for the Ipod for one reason: movies, videos and Wii + what Steve has up in his sleeves

milatchi
Jul 28, 2006, 04:40 PM
Zune is a crappy name.

END OF DISCUSSION.

nsjoker
Jul 28, 2006, 05:00 PM
"We do need a more consistent experience,",,,, introducing the Zune Blue Screen.

:/ i've yet to see a blue screen from xp. i'm sure it's out there. but if you run sp2, xp is a pretty solid and reliable OS. zune won't beat the ipod, but it sure as hell won't fail.

inkswamp
Jul 28, 2006, 05:19 PM
:/ i've yet to see a blue screen from xp.

I've seen the blue screen on XP. It's funny because I've been told by Windows users that it doesn't exist in XP, yet I witnessed it two weeks ago when a colleague of mine was trying to do something with Adobe Acrobat. The program just spazzed and the blue screen came up.

Wellander
Jul 28, 2006, 05:26 PM
Hi,
Microsoft kills basically everything.
They pretty much killed the netscape browser, they pretty killed other office suites, they are going to tery to kill the iPod now?
What next after that?
ERR.
One thing they have'nt killed yet is the Mac OS operating system.
Getting more and more upset at them.

NewSc2
Jul 28, 2006, 05:43 PM
I think this is great news~ I mean, really a few things would happen:

Zune sucks, doesn't do well (good for Apple)
Zune is well designed, but Apple makes an even better iPod (good for us)
Zune is really really well-designed, better than the iPod. (good for me, I'll get a Zune over an iPod)

matt.shaver
Jul 28, 2006, 10:30 PM
I've been lurking around for sometime and now thought it was time to join MacRumors.com.

At any rate, here's my take on Zune, Ipod, Apple and Microsoft. Yes, the facts are:

1. Microsoft has purchased technologies and integrated them into their OS and/or corporate structure. When they needed a killer application for the xBox, they purchased Bungie. Heck, they didn't even create the NT kernel, purchased that one too.

2. Apple too have purchased a few technologies along the way too. Final Cut Pro was purchased from Macromedia. iTunes (well it was not called that) was purchased too and released as a different product.

But what I've not read is that Apple has invested a great deal of money into R and D. Without research and development, Apple would have floundered. When we take that R/D and couple it with the vision of Jobs, Apple has grown in terms that we only dreamed in the mid-90s. Jobs knew this would eventually happen. As CEO of Apple, he has a responsibility to the stock holders to keep that company breathing, but there is more. Apple's culture is deep with Steve. Steve Jobs is Apple. Both are iconic in nature. And Apple is the Mac and the iPod too. So what we have here are strong brand identities like Steve Jobs, Apple, Macintosh/Mac OS X and iPod, incredible brand images that people have come to trust.

But don't forget Microsoft, the company that saved millions of desktop PCs with a GUI that nearly matched the sheer elegance of the Mac. However, people in the mid-90s loved MS, they could do no wrong. Win98 and NT had a great following. But something happened that many people underestimated - the Internet. Originally designed for Unix, now Windows and Mac clients were able to ride on that "super highway".

Malicious hackers were writing viruses hand-over-fist attempting to crack and hack Windows machines. Did MS bring them on themselves? Perhaps another topic for another time.

I personally think that MS's once strong iron-clad hold is beginning to weaken as the consumer no longer trusts them anymore. It's a joke to use Windows now. Restarts, spyware, pop-up ads, disfunctional software and hardware, incompatibility after incompatibility...it's like running around with a Ford Pinto. How much more can the average consumer take?

Now enter xBox. Yea it's OK but tepid at best by squeezing the market at Christmas time.

This Christmas is the Zune. MS is taking another shot at the consumer. Will they bite? Don't know because does the average consumer trust Microsoft?

In the end, Steve has been preparing for this day for a long long time and as usual in his time Steve will provide us with a newly designed iPod and perhaps a few other things too.

If there is something I learned when working with Apple, it's all about innovation, usability, presentation and execution. Without those four ingredients, Apple would just be another PC manufacturer.

zync
Jul 28, 2006, 11:11 PM
And you know what else matters? The fact that when Steve Jobs gets up on stage and talks about music, you can tell that he's really passionate about it. He's not just up there to sell tunes. He's a music lover and other music lovers relate to that and appreciate it. It's infectious. And it matters. I've seen MS and other companies talk about music (most often while wearing a suit which is enough to stop you right there) and the way they talk--there's no passion. You can tell that they view it at arms-length, like some kind of commodity, and surround their efforts with insulting marketing campaigns that play down to the lowest common denominator and that does not help.

I don't think Apple has anything to worry about. As long as they keep going, they're fine. I see no reason to think otherwise.

EXACTLY!

Also, add me to the list of users that have seen an XP blue screen—multiple times actually. It all depends on how much work you make your computer do. Of course it exists, even if it were impossible, I'm sure they'd put it in as an easter egg!

iDrinkKoolAid
Jul 29, 2006, 12:15 AM
I'm guessing others have already echoed my thoughts already, but competition is good a good thing.

The iPod is great (I use one every day at the gym), but nothing lasts forever.

I'm worried that Microsoft is in it for the long haul and will hold on until the iPod is crushed.

Then we'll be all left with sub-standard MP3 players that only work with Windows. :(

ezekielrage_99
Jul 29, 2006, 04:45 AM
It will suck like all Microsoft products except for the MS Mouse that is good.

How come pretty much everthing Apple makes is good except for the Mouse :confused:

JFreak
Jul 29, 2006, 07:54 AM
It will suck like all Microsoft products except for the MS Mouse that is good.

MS Natural Keyboard is also good.

How come pretty much everthing Apple makes is good except for the Mouse :confused:

Apple mouse is beautiful and using one is not very stressful for your hand. Scroll ball in the Mighty Mouse is the best I've used and there's no comparison.

The only bad Apple mice were the hockey pucks.

britishempire
Jul 29, 2006, 11:15 AM
i'll actually be more likely to go out and get a new iPod this christmas, thank to Zune.

Just to spite MS. :)

ariechel
Jul 29, 2006, 11:35 AM
My only fear: M$oft and the music companies are going to sign deals and this is what could hit Apple very bad... Major labels do not care where the music is bought... Apple... M$oft... the money goes into their pocket... So Apple need to have an idea to keep the Ipod owners their side.... The fact that Apple is proprietary is not a factor...

I think the music companies are at least a little worried about Apple's dominance of the music download and mp3 player markets, particularly after Apple strongarmed them into continuing the single 99 cent price scheme under iTunes.

It would not be unreasonable for them to provide preferential treatment to competitors in order to break the quasi-monopoly Apple has in this area and thus provide themselves with more leverage in price negotiations. Whether they will be willing to throw in their lot with MS, on the other hand, is somewhat questionable.

pink-pony115
Jul 29, 2006, 12:56 PM
I will give the microsoft zune a chance. But keep mind microsoft was created as a by-product of apple. I haven't had the best experience with mircosoft. Sooo I'm just curious.

imacintel
Jul 29, 2006, 01:22 PM
I will give the microsoft zune a chance. But keep mind microsoft was created as a by-product of apple. I haven't had the best experience with mircosoft. Sooo I'm just curious.


Me too, I am curious. To see if it sucks.

If it is anything like the Gigabeat, it will suck ass.

ThomasJefferson
Jul 29, 2006, 07:16 PM
Zune?
As in, this is something that does not Zoom, its Zunes?

Could still be fun to watch tho ...
Just how uncool can M$ make music?

ezekielrage_99
Jul 30, 2006, 07:55 AM
MS Natural Keyboard is also good.

Apple mouse is beautiful and using one is not very stressful for your hand. Scroll ball in the Mighty Mouse is the best I've used and there's no comparison.

The only bad Apple mice were the hockey pucks.

Yeah the MS Natural Keyboard is good, but sorry the Mighty Mouse just plain is a mighty sucky product. The ergonomics sucks, the scroller thingy gets dirty and hardly work and ithe Mighty Mouse is by far too expensive compared with other better products on the market.

rayz
Jul 31, 2006, 08:35 AM
I've seen the blue screen on XP. It's funny because I've been told by Windows users that it doesn't exist in XP, yet I witnessed it two weeks ago when a colleague of mine was trying to do something with Adobe Acrobat. The program just spazzed and the blue screen came up.

Entirely possible, but not necessarily a problem with XP. The operating system will immediately blue screen if an application attempts to write into an illegal memory area, which I've seem Acrobat do, and a Java application that used a native dll. I believe it's a security feature built into newer processors.

Zune?

The MS tactic will probably be the same as the one they used to defeat IBM, Apple and Palm; just keep throwing money at it, make gradual improvements until the competition makes a huge gaff and falls flat on it's face. They don't actually win; everyone else just kind of ... loses.
They've come from way behind before (remember when Palm had 90% of the PDA market) and ended up on top, but rarely on their own merits. Apple just has to keep up the marketing and keep adding value to the brand, and that should be enough to keep them ahead.

milo
Jul 31, 2006, 10:22 AM
I've seen the blue screen on XP. It's funny because I've been told by Windows users that it doesn't exist in XP, yet I witnessed it two weeks ago when a colleague of mine was trying to do something with Adobe Acrobat. The program just spazzed and the blue screen came up.

The reason you don't see it much is because the new default in XP is to just reboot the machine instead of sitting on that screen. It's still there.

rayz
Jul 31, 2006, 11:16 AM
The reason you don't see it much is because the new default in XP is to just reboot the machine instead of sitting on that screen. It's still there.


Mmm .. no. The reason you don't see it much is because XP SP2 is pretty rock solid as far as operating systems go.

If a machine reboots when you're typing an email, then folk would still register this as a crash. Unless the machine reboots while they're not there. The blue screen isn't the problem; the loss of work is ....

The only lock up I've had with XP was down to a printer driver, and even then I managed to recover by logging out without rebooting, then logging straight back in again.

milo
Jul 31, 2006, 11:59 AM
Mmm .. no. The reason you don't see it much is because XP SP2 is pretty rock solid as far as operating systems go.

Well, it is better than previous versions of windows. Both are reasons you don't see it as much.

My pc used to crash fairly often, and it was often when it was just sitting there and I wasn't even using it. Based on the number of times it happened when I was around, I can only imagine how many times it happened and I was unaware.

zync
Jul 31, 2006, 12:11 PM
Mmm .. no. The reason you don't see it much is because XP SP2 is pretty rock solid as far as operating systems go.

If a machine reboots when you're typing an email, then folk would still register this as a crash.

He was talking about seeing blue screens. So it doesn't matter how many people would register it as a crash....they still wouldn't see a blue screen. That was the point he was trying to make.

Also, just as a side note...it took them three years to create the version you're talking about. I'm not stating this for argument—it's only here as additional info.

rayz
Aug 1, 2006, 12:20 AM
He was talking about seeing blue screens. So it doesn't matter how many people would register it as a crash....they still wouldn't see a blue screen. That was the point he was trying to make.

Yep. I got that; I was saying that the reason you don't see it is not because they've hidden it; it's because XP is actually a lot more stable. Crashes these days are pretty rare, and are usually caused by attempts to access strange areas of memory, or driver problems. I have an XP box running a couple of web containers, and a few app servers; aside from a driver hiccup, never had a crash or secret reboot (and I would know, because I would still need to log back in when I got back from the water cooler).

Also, just as a side note...it took them three years to create the version you're talking about. I'm not stating this for argument—it's only here as additional info.

... and it took Apple just as long to create a stable version of OSX; the only real difference was that MS didn't charge for the interim versions. Again, just additional info.

Timepass
Aug 1, 2006, 01:13 AM
The reason you don't see it much is because the new default in XP is to just reboot the machine instead of sitting on that screen. It's still there.


also the blue screen of death is not really in XP. Yeah the screen is blue and cause a reboot but it is a very differnt screen compared to the one that was in the windows 9.x line and has very different infomation displayed in it.

Now the screen is still blue and cause a reboot but it also a lot rarer to see it and does not really happen as offen. But it not the same blue screen of death so it tecnolly XP does not have THE blue screen of death. it has a different blue screen of death.

zync
Aug 1, 2006, 10:20 AM
Yep. I got that; I was saying that the reason you don't see it is not because they've hidden it; it's because XP is actually a lot more stable. Crashes these days are pretty rare, and are usually caused by attempts to access strange areas of memory, or driver problems. I have an XP box running a couple of web containers, and a few app servers; aside from a driver hiccup, never had a crash or secret reboot (and I would know, because I would still need to log back in when I got back from the water cooler).



... and it took Apple just as long to create a stable version of OSX; the only real difference was that MS didn't charge for the interim versions. Again, just additional info.

I only clarified because it didn't seem like you got it. If you did, then my apologies.

As for the time it took Apple to create a stable version I disagree...the first desktop version that was available came out in March 2001. I would say that Jaguar was the first completely stable version, which came out in August 2002. Even if you disagree my PowerBook has been completely stable since I got it (it shipped with 10.2.7) in September 2003. Just over two years. My XP boxes have been far less stable.

Also, Apple charges because they offer new things to the operating system, not just stability fixes. OS X updates are also cheaper.

Timepass,
It's still called the Blue Screen of Death. If OS X had one, it'd be called the same thing. The point is that it's Blue, not that it's caused by .dll errors or incorrect memory addressing.

Willis
Aug 1, 2006, 10:48 AM
'Microsoft's Zune - Long Term Effort'... yeah, in R&D. 3-5 years time for a product is crazy. The market wont want what they will have on offer in that time. Its like that origami or whatever it is. Something that cropped up on MR, and then disappeared. no one cares.

rayz
Aug 1, 2006, 10:54 AM
I only clarified because it didn't seem like you got it. If you did, then my apologies.

No problem

As for the time it took Apple to create a stable version I disagree...the first desktop version that was available came out in March 2001. I would say that Jaguar was the first completely stable version, which came out in August 2002. Even if you disagree my PowerBook has been completely stable since I got it (it shipped with 10.2.7) in September 2003. Just over two years. My XP boxes have been far less stable.

Well, I actually didn't have a problem with any version of XP, even before I had installed XP2. The first releases of OSX were pretty hellish for me. Panther was fine; then I installed Tiger and I was back in beta land, which is when I decided to move the business-related stuff back to XP and just do the fun stuff on OSX. Fortunately Apple released a fix a few weeks after they released Tiger.

Also, Apple charges because they offer new things to the operating system, not just stability fixes. OS X updates are also cheaper.

Well, I don't think they've really done that much. They've mashed a few extra look and feels into the UI, added dashboard (and I'm not even sure they invented that), Automator (wich I really should try out). Apart from that, the OS is pretty much the same as it was when it was released (though a lot more stable obviously).

It's an excellent piece of work, but it certainly should be cheaper because when you get right down to it, they didn't actually have to write it from scratch.

Timepass,
It's still called the Blue Screen of Death. If OS X had one, it'd be called the same thing. The point is that it's Blue, not that it's caused by .dll errors or incorrect memory addressing.

Er ... OSX does have one, but it appear to be black (http://www.applematters.com/index.php/section/comments/ask-apple-matters-os-x-crashes-afterall/) ....

zync
Aug 1, 2006, 11:07 AM
No problem



Well, I actually didn't have a problem with any version of XP, even before I had installed XP2. The first releases of OSX were pretty hellish for me. Panther was fine; then I installed Tiger and I was back in beta land, which is when I decided to move the business-related stuff back to XP and just do the fun stuff on OSX. Fortunately Apple released a fix a few weeks after they released Tiger.



Well, I don't think they've really done that much. They've mashed a few extra look and feels into the UI, added dashboard (and I'm not even sure they invented that), Automator (wich I really should try out). Apart from that, the OS is pretty much the same as it was when it was released (though a lot more stable obviously).

It's an excellent piece of work, but it certainly should be cheaper because when you get right down to it, they didn't actually have to write it from scratch.



Er ... OSX does have one, but it appear to be black (http://www.applematters.com/index.php/section/comments/ask-apple-matters-os-x-crashes-afterall/) ....

I agree that it should be cheaper. Tiger introduced a lot. And Panther introduced Exposé. I think Panther was hit or miss for those first few weeks. Some people had major problems, I didn't.

OS X "Kernel Panics" are transparent :)

For the record, I've had errors on both ends. XP ones have been a lot more annoying—for me at least.

rayz
Aug 1, 2006, 11:55 AM
I agree that it should be cheaper. Tiger introduced a lot. And Panther introduced Exposé.

Actually, you know what I missed out?
SpotLight! .... :rolleyes:

Don't have any use for Expose, but I use Spotlight quite a bit.

I think Panther was hit or miss for those first few weeks. Some people had major problems, I didn't.

Panther was fine for me; if I'd stuck with that version, then I probably would have been OK.

OS X "Kernel Panics" are transparent :)

That's a neat trick, but it's still a crash. ... :)

For the record, I've had errors on both ends. XP ones have been a lot more annoying—for me at least.

OSX was my problem, which I did find surprising.

zync
Aug 1, 2006, 12:28 PM
Actually, you know what I missed out?
SpotLight! .... :rolleyes:

Don't have any use for Expose, but I use Spotlight quite a bit.



Panther was fine for me; if I'd stuck with that version, then I probably would have been OK.



That's a neat trick, but it's still a crash. ... :)



OSX was my problem, which I did find surprising.

I think we're just polar opposites. I've been fine with all versions of OS X. I use Exposé all the time but I may have used Spotlight like 5 times. Of course if we had Tiger at work I'd probably use it a lot more!

nishishei
Aug 18, 2006, 12:08 PM
I've seen the blue screen on XP. It's funny because I've been told by Windows users that it doesn't exist in XP, yet I witnessed it two weeks ago when a colleague of mine was trying to do something with Adobe Acrobat. The program just spazzed and the blue screen came up.
Your colleague either downloads porn/warez, or there is a potential hard drive physical failure (bad sectors on the disk), or he has crappy 3rd party drivers. Seriously, I've never seen the blue screen in XP and I've used XP since it came out on 3 computers plus work. These jokes on the XP blue screen are so misinformed that the laugh is on the joker. XP is very stable considering how much compatibility it has to provide for the infinite combinations of drivers, software and hardware.

milo
Aug 18, 2006, 03:27 PM
Your colleague either downloads porn/warez, or there is a potential hard drive physical failure (bad sectors on the disk), or he has crappy 3rd party drivers. Seriously, I've never seen the blue screen in XP and I've used XP since it came out on 3 computers plus work. These jokes on the XP blue screen are so misinformed that the laugh is on the joker. XP is very stable considering how much compatibility it has to provide for the infinite combinations of drivers, software and hardware.

Yet that doesn't change the fact that the BSOD still exists in XP.

Padraig
Aug 18, 2006, 04:28 PM
Yet that doesn't change the fact that the BSOD still exists in XP.

Ive never experienced the BSOD in 5 years, which is remarkable given the problems i had with 95. Bought a Rev D ibook when they were released, had two kernal panics within first week. Was not impressed with the stability of Panther, Tiger seems somewhat better. Applications still seem to shut down without warning.

generik
Aug 18, 2006, 04:49 PM
I think everyone should not forget that Microsoft is rich, and to apologist going "HA! Apple is rich as well", perhaps the point should be made that Microsoft is way richer.

Remember Palm? It used to be the top handheld, where is it today?
Even Sony's PS is slowly on its way down, afterall the marketshare that Microsoft is gaining, albeit tiny, is what used to be Sony's!

Trouble is Microsoft has a B$ monopoly going for it in the OS and office productivity markets, they can easily afford to blow billions to make Zune work. Heck, they blown hundreds of millions literally on a whim to stand up against the EU (on principle of their evilness!), I don't see why they won't blow at least as much cash on a line that'd effectively cripple their next competitor in the other market (MacOS vs Vista).

Without all that extra slush funds from iPod sales Apple would be hard pressed to keep the quarterlies up, that said I really hope to get an ultimate cool iPod this Paris expo :D

generik
Aug 18, 2006, 04:51 PM
Yet that doesn't change the fact that the BSOD still exists in XP.

The code for kernel panics exists in MacOS too, from my experience sometimes the OS even croaks before it can even draw the cool graphical error screen out. At least Windows XP has a fully functional BSOD :rolleyes: