PDA

View Full Version : Future of iTunes Norway, Sweden, Denmark?


MacRumors
Aug 1, 2006, 08:37 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Macworld.co.uk reports (http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=15415&Page=1&pagePos=3) that Apple has provided an intial response to Norway's Consumer Council regarding Apple's Digital Rights Management and the terms of service in Apple's iTunes Music store.

The contents of the response are not yet public, but Macworld.co.uk claims that "the contents of the letter could determine the future of the iTunes music store in Norway, Sweden and Denmark."

The initial complaint filed (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/06/20060606203834.shtml) was based on Apple's Digital Rights Management protection that accompanies every iTunes song sold. Apple's DRM reportedly violates the Norwegian Copyright Act because the songs can only be played on Apple's iPod.

The French legislature recently received (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/06/20060630152628.shtml) a lot of attention for trying to pass a similar law in France. There was speculation that Apple would withdraw iTunes from France if the law came into effect. In the end a softened version of the law passed in France and has had no immediate effects on Apple iTunes France.

acearchie
Aug 1, 2006, 08:43 AM
Ohhh :( everyone should be able to benefit from the beautiful iTunes music store... But i wish apple would hurry up in getting tv shows to the other stores!!!

I would buy buy buy its so simplistic! LOl

mi5moav
Aug 1, 2006, 08:52 AM
WHY NOT IN MY COUNTRY!!! It does blow a bit, but oh well. Fortunetly, I have a credit card and a P.O. Box in America so I don't have a problem, and you can always use gift cards.

Mitthrawnuruodo
Aug 1, 2006, 08:54 AM
Well, I've only gotten 8 songs from iTMS Norway, so far, and I doubt I'll get many more... I get all my music from the local library... :cool:

So, considering that I couldn't care less if iTMS was closed.

On the other hand, I could think of a number of things, that will affect my and most Norwegians far more than DRM'ed music, that the Consumer Council should be concern about before starting to poke into iTMS and MSN Music (or whatever that is called). Though I support their effort to prevent Apple (or any other) to change the terms after the sale is made, that Apple tries to reserve the right to do in the EULA. For that Apple might get a big fat slap...

twoodcc
Aug 1, 2006, 09:00 AM
well this doesn't seem too good. let's hope everything will get worked out

Mac
Aug 1, 2006, 09:16 AM
What happened in France will weigh heavily into the decision. Though the Consumer Council (CC) will never admit to that it still will matter. In the beginning everyone here in Norway thought that if the CC would push too hard that Apple and its subsidiary iTMS Luxembourg would pull out, but after heavy consumer discussion it all kind of mellowed out in the summer months.

I heavily doubt that the DRM demand from CC would be admitted to by Apple/iTMS. As for the legal and contractual language I am quite sure that Apple/iTMS will change this and thus comply with the most important demand from CC.

Still, the French outcome will be enormously important for all of Europe, not just France and Norway.

Dr.Gargoyle
Aug 1, 2006, 09:22 AM
I don't get it....
We in scandinavia have put up with MS for years up without raising a voice against MS's strive towards total monopoly. Now when there a new player has entered in a less profitable market and doing well...BAM!
I just don't get it

It makes one wonder if our honourable legislators have MS stocks

shawnce
Aug 1, 2006, 10:00 AM
I get all my music from the local library... :cool:
Cool screw the artist!

(you can find many artists that you can purchase music from directly... including on iTMS)

Mitthrawnuruodo
Aug 1, 2006, 10:05 AM
Cool screw the artist!That's taken care of through an intricate web of taxes, duties and fees. So all music borrowed on the library can be copied and/or ripped legally by the lender (though the Library can not copy it for you), and I can even make copies for my "closest friends and relatives" of all music and movies (but not software) that I borrow, rent or buy. It's very good to be a consumer in Norway... most of the time... ;)

ccrandall77
Aug 1, 2006, 10:07 AM
I seriously don't understand why people and countries have a problems with Apple's DRM???? You don't have to buy from iTunes and if you do, you know the limitations of that download. If you don't like it, buy elsewhere... iTunes is hardly a monopoly... besides, wouldn't you rather have the CD so you can rip it into a lossless format, have the CD sleeve, etc.???

I've purchased a lot off of iTunes and then I bought an Archos PMP. Ya it sucked that I couldn't play my iTunes music on there without burning it to CD and re-ripping it, but so what! I knew what I was getting when I downloaded from iTunes so I have no right to bitch.

rcread
Aug 1, 2006, 10:13 AM
This is just one more reason why socialism doesn't work. It takes away the incentive of a company to put a product in the country, and the consumers ultimately suffer.

Stella
Aug 1, 2006, 10:17 AM
This is just one more reason why socialism doesn't work. It takes away the incentive of a company to put a product in the country, and the consumers ultimately suffer.

LOL.

Nice troll.

Josias
Aug 1, 2006, 10:37 AM
Awww, they finally made it possible to buy DMB Music on Music Store. Though I don't se it much, I know many that do, and I think it would be a loss for everyone...:(

How can a Norwegian law affect Denmark like this?:confused:

Mitthrawnuruodo
Aug 1, 2006, 10:41 AM
How can a Norwegian law affect Denmark like this?:confused:Gjennom EØS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area)-avtalen... :(

Josias
Aug 1, 2006, 10:49 AM
Gjennom EØS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area)-avtalen... :(

Øv pis! Dumme Nordmand! I skal altid ødelægge det, når vi andre har det sjovt! :p

Nah, I just hope Apple passes, like in France...:rolleyes:

dsnort
Aug 1, 2006, 10:50 AM
You want to see something really funny!. Look what happpens when you try to Access Sony's online music service on a Mac

"We appreciate your interest in the Connect music store, but our store currently only works with Internet Explorer 5.5 and above. You don't seem to be using that particular browser at the moment, so, unfortunately, we'll have to part ways until we support the browser you're currently using or you upgrade to the latest version of Internet Explorer. Please click the Download link below if you'd like to upgrade now.
Thank your for your interest in the Connect music store!"


Upgrade to IE????? Bwhahahahahahahahahahaha. Those silly wabbits

dsnort
Aug 1, 2006, 10:58 AM
On a more serious note, I wonder how all this drama surrounding Apples DRM will impact the ODF argument? I mean, if you have the right to open a recording you PURCHASED on whatever type of player you wish, shouldn't you also have the right to open a document YOU CREATE, on any type of app that handles that type of data, without losing any functionality? I mean, shouldn't a Pages doc open on word without losing the formatting? Shouldn't an excel file open on Lotus? Did Steve Jobs forsee this? Is it all part of some masterplot???:eek:

Mitthrawnuruodo
Aug 1, 2006, 11:03 AM
On a more serious note, I wonder how all this drama surrounding Apples DRM will impact the ODF argument? I mean, if you have the right to open a recording you PURCHASED on whatever type of player you wish, shouldn't you also have the right to open a document YOU CREATE, on any type of app that handles that type of data, without losing any functionality? I mean, shouldn't a Pages doc open on word without losing the formatting? Shouldn't an excel file open on Lotus? Did Steve Jobs forsee this? Is it all part of some masterplot???:eek:dsnort, meet OpenDocument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opendocument)... ;)

dsnort
Aug 1, 2006, 11:29 AM
dsnort, meet OpenDocument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opendocument)... ;)
Oh, I know it's do-able, with enough workarounds, just like it's possible to burn iTune recordings to a CD and re-rip them into another player, a process I would call "conversion". The question in my mind is why have to convert the file at all? Why not have all the software companies supply the codes so that all other apps could open their docs with out other steps? Kind of like what the French and Norwegians want Apple to do with iTunes?

dsnort
Aug 1, 2006, 11:47 AM
For shawnce, I luv the movies of Bawl-mer

macFanDave
Aug 1, 2006, 11:55 AM
Denmark, Norway and Sweden are just about the happiest countries in the world. Taking the iTMS away from them ought to knock them down a few pegs!

weitzner
Aug 1, 2006, 12:51 PM
well if the argument was to make a completely cross-platform DRM that would work in all media players and on all portable music players, that would be fine with me- especially if napster and all other music stores were being scrutinized too. personally, i think that most people buy from the ITMS after they have an iPod because it's easy. and downloaders aren't demanding that the DRM be licensed to other music players because they are happy with the iTunes-iPod solution. i think these suits are well-intentioned but misdirected. the demand should be for completely cross-platform files- then the music player license issue would work itself out.

Timepass
Aug 1, 2006, 12:54 PM
Denmark, Norway and Sweden are just about the happiest countries in the world. Taking the iTMS away from them ought to knock them down a few pegs!


Problem is Demark, Norway and Sweden are just the first countries to really crack down on DRM like this but they will not be the last. Pulling iTMS away from them might work right now but think long term. The 3 counties will not be the last to do it. Other will follow suit with the DRM. France will at some point get the laws passed since they are pretty close to DRM set up like that with ones that went though so it would not be much of a surpise to see France force DRM to open up there as well. I could see most of the EU at some point forcing the issue.

Should apple pull iTMS away from every country that does that. No it will catch up to them and they will just open up to all. Problem is any country the pulled out of they burned those bridges and will have a very hard time getting back in and will more than likely lose a lot of market share long term by pulling that stunt.

Long term the wises action is for apple to give in and just open it up because those countries are just the first and they most certanily will not be the last.

Yvan256
Aug 1, 2006, 01:11 PM
"the songs can only be played on Apple's iPod"

I'm really tired of hearing this. First of all, people are not forced to buy from the iTMS, CDs still exist.

Second, the songs can be played on a Mac computer with iTunes, a Windows computer with iTunes, iPods. They can also be burned to an audio CD which can be played on millions of devices.

How is that "iPod-only"?! :confused:

Stella
Aug 1, 2006, 01:15 PM
I'm really tired of hearing this. First of all, people are not forced to buy from the iTMS, CDs still exist.

Second, the songs can be played on a Mac computer with iTunes, a Windows computer with iTunes, iPods. They can also be burned to an audio CD which can be played on millions of devices.

How is that "iPod-only"?! :confused:

To use on other devices requires you to have to go through a lot of unnecessary and time consuming hoops.

DRM should be unified - one DRM standard for ALL devices.

Dr.Gargoyle
Aug 1, 2006, 01:46 PM
Denmark, Norway and Sweden are just about the happiest countries in the world.
If that is the case, you guys must be *********g miserable.

Lyra
Aug 1, 2006, 01:48 PM
Ok, so this is one thing people don't really talk about, but to be completely honest, why don't we just be honest here.

Loosing Denmark, or Norway or both, doesn't matter one bit. It is a courtesy that Apple even allowed these small and meaningless countries to join in on the fun.

Point is, that loosing Denmark or Norway, or both, doesn't play any roles here... They are no market for Apple. We have Denmark, who is 98% PeeCee users and are still allergic to change and everything Apple. So, with a population of roughly 5 million, and most people use, PCs, and their aggressive TDC (Local Telephone company/Internet Company) downloadable music campaigns came out a month or two before Apple was allowed into the country. Conveniently they got a head start, no one talks about how TDC was blocking Apple from getting in.

Now, Apple users have just recently started to grow in Denmark, and if I say that the total Mac User community in Denmark is 25.000 people, then I am being optimistic at best. Out of that 25.000 a good 10.000 to 15.000 users don't have a modern mac, or don't even have broadband and don't surf the web like others, or rather, they are not part of the iLife community that has spawned an entire culture, thanks to Apple.

Then we have a few the 10.000 or so who actually have a current mac and do use all the tools and apps in the iLife community. But not all download music, so if we say that 5000 people actually buy music from iTunes, then is a minor miracle. A song on iTunes costs you $1.37 and then you actually need an iPod too, so let's throw that into the equation too. How many currently active iLife / iPod users are there really? Not a heck of alot. The iPod is not cheap in Denmark and songs are not cheap either.

People might have tried to buy a few songs from iTunes, but don't count on people actually building their library up with songs purchased with music from iTunes.

So, in the grand scheme of things, loosing 5-10.000 customers (being optimistic here and I am not even saying they are reoccurring users) for Apple doesn't mean a thing. New York has more inhabitant than Denmark...Ohh I don't know, say, 4 times more?

NEW YORK (Population 19,227,088)
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0108252.html

DENMARK (Population 5,450,661 -the entire country-)
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107460.html

NORWAY (Population 4,610,820 -the entire country-)
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107851.html

SWEDEN (Population 9,016,596 -the entire country-)
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0108008.html

New York makes up these three countries and no, not the entire State buys iTunes, but then neither do, these three countries...

So, the entire US, Canada, Asia, Australia and parts of Europe.. Do, you really think, Denmark makes an impression? Or Sweden and Norway for that matter?

Honestly, they are full of them selves, and they are MS friendly, always have been and always will be... That is their way... It won't change, creativity doesn't live these places.

The fact that these small countries yell so loudly has to be because they don't have anything better to do with their time and money.

So, for those who really think, Apple should give in, to these spoiled nations... Think again... Apple would benefit from leaving these countries, and let them enjoy whatever they want to enjoy.

TV shows, in those countries? Well I can only speak for Denmark, as I am stationed here... With their perverted Laws... That won't ever happen... Something called CODA and License, are the real pirates of those countries.

These countries simply didn't deserve to have Apple even thinking about giving them a piece of the fun...

xlight
Aug 1, 2006, 01:49 PM
Norway is doing you all a favor. Do not act as stupid ass consumers with no brain. It is your right when you by music to listen to i where ever you want it too.
You payed for it didn't you so now it is yours ....
DRM is ******** and it takes away your rights as a consumers.

Act now stop that ********.

One more thing. At least we have the freedom and our goverment tries too help.

Stella
Aug 1, 2006, 01:52 PM
If that is the case, you guys must be *********g miserable.

Why?

Believe or not, iTunes is *not*the secret of happiness - it does not make or break a country.

:-\

noservice2001
Aug 1, 2006, 01:56 PM
interesting....

spencecb
Aug 1, 2006, 01:57 PM
I like how the Norwegians are saying that the music purchased from the iTMS can only be plaid on an iPod. Um, am I missing something, or what about the millions and millions of computerts around the world that can play iTMS content just fine? That seems to me like that would qualify for more than one type of device that can play the content.

dsnort
Aug 1, 2006, 01:57 PM
Problem is Demark, Norway and Sweden are just the first countries to really crack down on DRM like this but they will not be the last. Pulling iTMS away from them might work right now but think long term. The 3 counties will not be the last to do it. Other will follow suit with the DRM. France will at some point get the laws passed since they are pretty close to DRM set up like that with ones that went though so it would not be much of a surpise to see France force DRM to open up there as well. I could see most of the EU at some point forcing the issue.

Should apple pull iTMS away from every country that does that. No it will catch up to them and they will just open up to all. Problem is any country the pulled out of they burned those bridges and will have a very hard time getting back in and will more than likely lose a lot of market share long term by pulling that stunt.

Long term the wises action is for apple to give in and just open it up because those countries are just the first and they most certanily will not be the last.

I have always thought Apple would eventually open up it's DRM of their own free will. At this time, there is no serious competitor to the iPod/iTunes combo. Should serious competition arise, perhaps sometime Zune, the iPods inability to play music from other sources will be a competitive disadvantage.
However, as a philosophical issue, I have a problem with any government interfering like this in a free market! Sometimes such interference is necessary to prevent harm to the public, but I don't see where this is the case with the iPod. It doesn't cause injury to the user, ( if you heed the volume warnings ), and there are alternatives. Those who don't like iPod/iTunes locking them in to one player are fully free to use the alternatives!

Dr.Gargoyle
Aug 1, 2006, 01:58 PM
Why?\
I was just flabbergasted by the statement that we scandinavians are supposed to be the happiest people in the world. If my memory serves me correct we also have the highest suicidal rates in the world too... and THAT is before we stood to lose iTMS ;)

xlight
Aug 1, 2006, 02:00 PM
First you bitch about MS then when Apple does the same thing it is not wrong.
Come on ...

Lyra
Aug 1, 2006, 02:03 PM
Honestly Denmark, Norway and Sweden...

If you don't like it, then get out... Leave it, don't touch it and shut up!

No one is forcing you to buy it, so stop whining... You are not making any sense, you are just acting like desperate little people wanting to bash Apple cause that is the PC way to do things...

Most PC users with an iPod in Scandinavia only rip music and that is all...

So, let me explain it to you, since you don't seem to get it...

IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT... Here it comes... DON'T BUY IT!!!!!!

Stop acting so money hungry... Yeah, Norway wanting to give Apple a fine for their format... Wow... that's rich!

So, if a tiny country (Norway) with a few people wanting money, all they have to do is make a new law that is formulated so that they can "according to their law" say that international companies are violating their laws... Inventive, but very greedy...

There are other ways of getting noticed you know... Like doing something that actually benefits the world... (Max Von Sydow, doesn't count, he was Swedish)

Lyra
Aug 1, 2006, 02:06 PM
I was just flabbergasted by the statement that we scandinavians are supposed to be the happiest people in the world. If my memory serves me correct we also have the highest suicidal rates in the world too... and THAT is before we stood to lose iTMS ;)


See he gets it!!!!

He is one of the few people who (if he lives in Scandinavia, needs to be granted amnesty, and sent to a happier place!) actually understands how it is there...

He is telling the truth, but I didn't want to bring up the suicidal rates in those countries and how the youth is just rotting away... But hey, now that he did...

I am sure they don't spend their money on iPods or iTunes, but rather crack and weed... After all their lives suck... so...

Dr.Gargoyle
Aug 1, 2006, 02:37 PM
See he gets it!!!!

He is one of the few people who (if he lives in Scandinavia, needs to be granted amnesty, and sent to a happier place!) actually understands how it is there...

He is telling the truth, but I didn't want to bring up the suicidal rates in those countries and how the youth is just rotting away... But hey, now that he did...

I am sure they don't spend their money on iPods or iTunes, but rather crack and weed... After all their lives suck... so...
OOOOkkkeeyyyy...
First of all, I do live in Sweden. (born and bred). Secondly, my comment shouldn't be taken too seriously.
I don't know where are from, but my guess is that you never been close to scandinavia. If you had done some traveling you would know that all countries have to live with their own moronic politicians for better or worse.

Lyra
Aug 1, 2006, 02:50 PM
OOOOkkkeeyyyy...
First of all, I do live in Sweden. (born and bred). Secondly, my comment shouldn't be taken too seriously.
I don't know where are from, but my guess is that you never been close to scandinavia. If you had done some traveling you would know that all countries have to live with their own moronic politicians for better or worse.

Hmmm, hvad skal det betyde? Før du siger noget skulle du tænke dig om, ik?;)

I am stationed in Denmark, and have been since Bush became President...

I do know what it means to be in Scandinavia and yes, I deal with your politicians quite a bit... So, don't get me started.

casperghst42
Aug 1, 2006, 02:57 PM
TV shows, in those countries? Well I can only speak for Denmark, as I am stationed here... With their perverted Laws... That won't ever happen... Something called CODA and License, are the real pirates of those countries.

These countries simply didn't deserve to have Apple even thinking about giving them a piece of the fun...

I live in The Netherlands, and I don't have any TV shows either, so it's not only in Denmark, etc. which you can't get them. And as far as I can you can only get them in the US (maybe there are other countries where they are awailable, but there aren't many).

The issue is that ITMS needs to get distribution rights in each and every country where they want to distribute anything, which can be a pain, and for europe the networks might not be interested in making a TV Show available via ITMS before it have been air'ed as they then will loose ad money.

It is not just a simple matter...

As for DRM, one of the reasons for this is going on is that when you download something from ITMS it will only play in either iTunes or on a iPod which is locking the user to a single device.

We where all laughing when the EU fined MS - issue is that Apple is not much better in this case....

I'm a Mac head, but I do not like the DRM Apple is forcing me to live with....

Casper

Lyra
Aug 1, 2006, 03:02 PM
I live in The Netherlands, and I don't have any TV shows either, so it's not only in Denmark, etc. which you can't get them. And as far as I can you can only get them in the US (maybe there are other countries where they are awailable, but there aren't many).

The issue is that ITMS needs to get distribution rights in each and every country where they want to distribute anything, which can be a pain, and for europe the networks might not be interested in making a TV Show available via ITMS before it have been air'ed as they then will loose ad money.

It is not just a simple matter...

As for DRM, one of the reasons for this is going on is that when you download something from ITMS it will only play in either iTunes or on a iPod which is locking the user to a single device.

We where all laughing when the EU fined MS - issue is that Apple is not much better in this case....

I'm a Mac head, but I do not like the DRM Apple is forcing me to live with....

Casper

I see what you mean and I agree to some extend...

But no disrespect when I say, you really are not forced to live with the DRM... No one is, and that is the main point here...

If people really are that bothered by it, then all they need to do is to stop using the Apple iPod and iTunes.

I for one, really don't feel affected by this, not even a little bit...

And you are right, it is only the American version of the iTunes that offer TV shows... At the moment...

dsnort
Aug 1, 2006, 03:32 PM
Do not act as stupid ass consumers with no brain. It is your right when you by music to listen to i where ever you want it too.
You payed for it didn't you so now it is yours ....
DRM is ******** and it takes away your rights as a consumers.

Act now stop that ********.

One more thing. At least we have the freedom and our goverment tries too help.

I don't FEEL ignorant and stupid. Maybe that's because I took the time to READ and UNDERSTAND the limitations imposed on me by iTunes/iPod before I BOUGHT in. And maybe because I understand that what I am BUYING is a DIGITAL DATA FILE that must be interpreted by a certain APPLICATION to become music, and that this was EXPLAINED to me before I BOUGHT. That I don't OWN the MUSIC, and that there are LIMITATIONS to what I can do with it. ( And if you think I'm wrong on that last point, let a copyright holder catch you using their music for commmercial gain. Write back to us and describe the world of hurt that descends on you)!

The fact of the matter is that reasonable DRM's protect the artists who are the source of the music. And Apples DRM is one the most reasonable in the industry, both protecting the artist, and allowing fair use by the customer.

Inkling
Aug 1, 2006, 03:51 PM
DRM should be unified - one DRM standard for ALL devices.

While I'm no great fan of DRM, this makes about as much sense as making all home, car and office locks use the same key. And making files DRM'd under one system transferable to a different DRM (what France was attempting) simply means that no DRM will be stronger than the weakest.

Like it are not, if we want to buy legit music, we've got to have a fairly effective DRM or those who own music have no incentive to release it. Would any of us leave a brand-new MacBook Pro unattended on a park bench while we went into a store? Well, these people have far more invested in their music than we have in our computers.

In short, we shouldn't demand of others different standards than those we live by ourselves.

Timepass
Aug 1, 2006, 04:26 PM
I have always thought Apple would eventually open up it's DRM of their own free will. At this time, there is no serious competitor to the iPod/iTunes combo. Should serious competition arise, perhaps sometime Zune, the iPods inability to play music from other sources will be a competitive disadvantage.
However, as a philosophical issue, I have a problem with any government interfering like this in a free market! Sometimes such interference is necessary to prevent harm to the public, but I don't see where this is the case with the iPod. It doesn't cause injury to the user, ( if you heed the volume warnings ), and there are alternatives. Those who don't like iPod/iTunes locking them in to one player are fully free to use the alternatives!]

It is a fine line. But really apple is flirting with needing the goverment to step in. Goverment waits to long to do anything and the damage is permant and compition is hurt for years to come. A good example is M$ got nailed for it but that didnt change the fact that it made the software the domante force on the market and they didnt have to give up the market share they took.

a completely free market is bad plan and simple. So is the other direction of the goverment controling everything. it has to be a balance bettween the 2. I am of the opinan that it is getting to the point in just DRM that it is getting close to the time where the goverment needs to step in and help clean up some of the mess before it gets out of hand and all they can do at most is damage control. Right now there is still time to prevent the damanage from happening. Apple got there market share power and now they are getting near to virtual monoploly standing in both the mp3 player market and online music store. Once you cross those lines and become a virtual monoploly in a market the rules change. No longer is using the power in one market to effect the other legal. (so Apple cannt use iTMS to effect ipod sales and ipod to effect iTMS sales as it does now.)



I also like to point out as people say pull out of those country you have to rememeber that they are just the first countries to pass these laws and THEY WILL NOT BE THE LAST. So should apple pull out of every country that pass those laws. Some how I think that is stupid idea. I expect in the next few years to see all of the EU have laws forcing open DRM and now you are talking about a large enough market that it really will effect the bottom line. And at some point the US is going to pass laws forcing open DRM. Now think about it. Apple can burn there bridges now or releliez this is where the market is heading weather they like it or not. Now either move now and deal or pay the price in permate damage down the road.

pgw3
Aug 1, 2006, 04:27 PM
I don't FEEL ignorant and stupid. Maybe that's because I took the time to READ and UNDERSTAND the limitations imposed on me by iTunes/iPod before I BOUGHT in. And maybe because I understand that what I am BUYING is a DIGITAL DATA FILE that must be interpreted by a certain APPLICATION to become music, and that this was EXPLAINED to me before I BOUGHT. That I don't OWN the MUSIC, and that there are LIMITATIONS to what I can do with it. ( And if you think I'm wrong on that last point, let a copyright holder catch you using their music for commmercial gain. Write back to us and describe the world of hurt that descends on you)!

The fact of the matter is that reasonable DRM's protect the artists who are the source of the music. And Apples DRM is one the most reasonable in the industry, both protecting the artist, and allowing fair use by the customer.


The problem is that the license says that the limitations can change at any time, so one doesn't really know what one buys, even if one has read the license - which I'm sure most people has not. I don't believe that the complaint is first and foremost about the DRM (which one may have opinions about exactly how it is implemented and shared but most anyway recognises it as a necessary evil) but rather what is summarised in these two sentences: "it is unreasonable that the agreement the consumer must give consent to is regulated by English law. That iTunes disclaims all liability for possible damage the software may cause and that it may alter the rights to the music". I think most of us agree that it is not reasonable that that which we buy can destroy anything on our computer and that they can e.g. suddenly just allow me to play a song just five times. And even though we all trust and like Apple these sort of licences are getting sillier and sillier (and it is certainlly not just Apple, it is basically the whole industry) and I think it is really good that someone who has the time and knowledge to fight it takes a stand against it, even though I believe shutting down the store may be overkill but I'm sure it won't come to that.

Cheers,

Peter

dsnort
Aug 1, 2006, 08:39 PM
The problem is that the license says that the limitations can change at any time, so one doesn't really know what one buys, even if one has read the license - which I'm sure most people has not. I don't believe that the complaint is first and foremost about the DRM (which one may have opinions about exactly how it is implemented and shared but most anyway recognises it as a necessary evil) but rather what is summarised in these two sentences: "it is unreasonable that the agreement the consumer must give consent to is regulated by English law. That iTunes disclaims all liability for possible damage the software may cause and that it may alter the rights to the music". I think most of us agree that it is not reasonable that that which we buy can destroy anything on our computer and that they can e.g. suddenly just allow me to play a song just five times. And even though we all trust and like Apple these sort of licences are getting sillier and sillier (and it is certainlly not just Apple, it is basically the whole industry) and I think it is really good that someone who has the time and knowledge to fight it takes a stand against it, even though I believe shutting down the store may be overkill but I'm sure it won't come to that.

Cheers,

Peter

I understand what you are saying, and empathize with your concern. I just find it bewildering that the focus of so much of this debate is Apples DRM, which is one of the most reasonable out there. This is not a case, so far, of Apple abusing the customer so much as it is of Apple having so many customers. For real DRM abuse stories, check out what Sony did on some of the DVD's they sold. Or Napsters subscription service where you have rights to the music as long as you keep making the payments, every month. Or try to decipher M$'s DRM policy. Or try to sign up for Sony's Connect Store on a Mac.
I personally don't think it will ever come to the point where Apple will pull iTunes from any country, at least, I certainly hope not.
As for the post you quoted, sorry. People who insist that everyone who doesn't agree with them is mentally defective touch a hot button for me. Especially when their reasoning is.....suspect.

TeppefallGuy
Aug 1, 2006, 08:40 PM
I spent 15 minutes registering for an account only to find out that The Daily Show is off limits for Norwegian buyers. I then tried to buy a DVD - only to discover that the DVD is US zone only. The Apple DVD player will not play it without a zone switch. And max is 4 times per OS install.

The only way I can get The Daily Show is:

1 - $$$ porn package from cable company
2 - YouTube
3 - Piracy

I'm not 12 years old.. I don't have the time to pirate anything. So the only TDS for me is on YouTube. Quail hunting with the VP !!

iTunes+DRM == Avis. You don't own ****. So... in Norway... DRM ! It's a crime !!

Also.. The default M4A bit rate used by iTunes is a joke. You have to be 80 years old not to notice the huge difference between a CD and a standard iTunes M4A track.

PPC970FX
Aug 2, 2006, 02:24 AM
1) Oslo the capital of norway is the city where the ipod/people ratio is highest in the WORLD.
2) They are stuffed with cash.
3) They are the most advansed tech people in the world, "everybody" has a computer and DSL. And many even know how to use them :P
4) They have been trendsetters on the intnernett for the past 3-6 years.

That is why Norway Sweden and Denmark has iTS

gekko513
Aug 2, 2006, 02:47 AM
Lyra, your tone is condescending. Calling Scandinavian laws "perverted" tells us that you're single minded to begin with and that your points can't be taken seriously.

I'll still address the point you make about the size of the Scandinavian market. The total population of the Scandinavian countries are 18.9 million. The total population of the USA is 296 million. The size of the Scandinavian market is only 6.4% of the size of the US market, but if Apple pulls out it's still lost income, potentially up to a couple of percent of what Apple makes in the US if you count loss of sales of music and the domino effect that will cause loss of sales of iPods and Macs.

Of course Apple can survive without the Scandinavian market, but why give up potential profit for nothing except stubbornness?

Lyra
Aug 2, 2006, 04:24 AM
1) Oslo the capital of norway is the city where the ipod/people ratio is highest in the WORLD.
2) They are stuffed with cash.
3) They are the most advansed tech people in the world, "everybody" has a computer and DSL. And many even know how to use them :P
4) They have been trendsetters on the intnernett for the past 3-6 years.

That is why Norway Sweden and Denmark has iTS


You are kidding right?

Mitthrawnuruodo
Aug 2, 2006, 04:31 AM
You are kidding right?Apart from the conclusion... what do you think is just "kidding"?

Lyra
Aug 2, 2006, 05:00 AM
Lyra, your tone is condescending. Calling Scandinavian laws "perverted" tells us that you're single minded to begin with and that your points can't be taken seriously.

I'll still address the point you make about the size of the Scandinavian market. The total population of the Scandinavian countries are 18.9 million. The total population of the USA is 296 million. The size of the Scandinavian market is only 6.4% of the size of the US market, but if Apple pulls out it's still lost income, potentially up to a couple of percent of what Apple makes in the US if you count loss of sales of music and the domino effect that will cause loss of sales of iPods and Macs.

Of course Apple can survive without the Scandinavian market, but why give up potential profit for nothing except stubbornness?

It is in your right to feel the word "PERVERTED" is condescending, however you seem to be missing the point. And furthermore, when your country gives Apple a bad rep, just cause you have a law that benefits your greedy idea of harming international companies and getting some money out of them, in this certain case, it happens to be Apple. Were you this engaged to do something when MS broke the law? The international law?

The fact of the matter is that Scandinavia simply isn't worth this...

You call it stubbornness when you talk about opening the DRM, which shows you, to be completely delusional when it comest to understanding this matter.

As one of the posters here mentioned, it would be like unifying the keys to everything you own and hoping no one breaks in, or steals anything from you.

Do you think ALL those companies would have joined iTunes, if Apple didn't have a good and pretty solid security to present them with? Ultimately it is all about making sure that the items you buy from them are safe and has a copy protection that insures the record labels that they can trust this format.

So who are you to go up against a phenomenon like iTunes, and these major companies? Do you honestly believe that Apple is the only one who is pushing DRM?

Try to do something productive instead and fight FOR and not against Apple... If you want iTunes, you have to adjust your selves to their format. It is idiotic to think that because I don't agree with certain companies and how they make their products, I can actually make a difference. Scandinavia doesn't have an impact on anything, you won't be able to change anything.

It is like someone disagreeing that the off button on SONY TVs remote is on the right side and not the left... If you can adjust and live with all the things other companies do, then why can't you with Apple? No one is forcing you to use iTunes... Better yet, if you don't like it buy the SONY, knock off of the iPods...

People whining about this simply don't see what is behind all of this. It is like moaning about DVD regional Codes, or copy protection on DVDs in general. Why don't you write to Panasonic or Pioneer and tell them, that you don't like and would fine them for not allowing you to switch regional codes on your DVD burner/player.

You can tolerate other companies, yet you cannot understand why iTunes HAS to work this way.

Your post indicates you have an issue with the size of your country. It indicates a certain insecurity, when you actually want to make justify your views on how many people live in Scandinavia and how many there are in New York alone. We are not talking about the 296 million in the entire USA. Canada is excluded in those numbers.

Why are you people so ungrateful? Why can't you just enjoy what Apple is giving you? Would you rather pirate songs?

Your laws ARE perverted (meaning they are not fair and serve only greed).
Just like our laws are perverted in many of our states, yours in your tiny country has a worse effect. After all, you still don't matter in the grand scheme of things...
And sooner or later, Apple will leave you, then you won't be able to buy anything from iTunes...

Is that what you want? Then why don't you just vote on it? If it matters so much to you?

Don't be so naive and think you have any influence over this... You are not just going up against Apple, but the entire band of companies who are backing Apple in this. Try do go up against them... It is as I said, you cannot change the power on/off buttons placement on the remote-control... Or any other silly thing people have a problem with...

Apart from the conclusion... what do you think is just "kidding"?


Oh I don't know, just about everything? It is this insecurity thing again isn't it?

The fewer the people in a nation, the easier it is to say they are the best or the worst in certain things. Get it?

10 people loved the new Godzilla movie (People loved this movie and this might be the next best thing to sliced bread)

1.000.000 people hated the new Godzilla movie (People hated this movie and is considered to be a major flop)

donbluto
Aug 2, 2006, 05:09 AM
The fewer the people in a nation, the easier it is to say they are the best or the worst in certain things.

So a ratio isn't necessarily a ratio, then? It depends on the population size?

Mitthrawnuruodo
Aug 2, 2006, 05:21 AM
Oh I don't know, just about everything? It is this insecurity thing again isn't it? Insecurity...? The only thing I'm insecure about at the moment is whether you are for real or just trolling... :confused:

The fewer the people in a nation, the easier it is to say they are the best or the worst in certain things. Get it?Who says we're best at anything. It's not a contest... :rolleyes:

Up here in the Nordic countries we're a small, fairly uniform, very rich, well-educated (to a degree - pun intended), technological advanced population. The marked might be small, but it's still a nice little marked.

Do you honestly see Apple pull out of a similar marked, let say New Your city, just because an unresolved quarrel with the local government...?

Lyra
Aug 2, 2006, 05:26 AM
So a ratio isn't necessarily a ratio, then? It depends on the population size?

You are aiming at being impossible right now...

A ratio doesn't always mean what people want it to mean... Simple as that...

It is all about how you twist and turn the results...

People talk, about how many voted for Bush and actually like him, or how many people hate Bush and wish he wasn't president... Which do you think dominates the US networks?

Shall we talk about statistics now?

Cause I would hate to go off topic...

Let us just stick to the main subject here.

Explain to me why you people feel threatened, harmed or hurt by the DRM?

How does it affect you?

What would you like if it wasn't there?

And what kind of reality would suit you best?

Make a case here so we can understand why you are so hung up on this crusade...

Lyra
Aug 2, 2006, 05:31 AM
Insecurity...? The only thing I'm insecure about at the moment is whether you are for real or just trolling... :confused:

Who says we're best at anything. It's not a contest... :rolleyes:

Up here in the Nordic countries we're a small, fairly uniform, very rich, well-educated (to a degree - pun intended), technological advanced population. The marked might be small, but it's still a nice little marked.

Do you honestly see Apple pull out of a similar marked, let say New Your city, just because an unresolved quarrel with the local government...?

You New York is New York, part of the USA.

Saying that you are small, rich and well educated... And then you even say, you are technologically advanced?

Have you been to Singapore, Kuwait, Japan? I can name a few more places, but let's keep the list short.

You are not very technologically advanced you know... Well, again, compared to Africa you are...

Look, it seems, you are not seeing the overall picture, only what you see in front of you... And in this case it is Apple... But that is not all there is...

Mitthrawnuruodo
Aug 2, 2006, 05:40 AM
Let us just stick to the main subject here.

Explain to me why you people feel threatened, harmed or hurt by the DRM?Remember, even if the press is very hung up on DRM, that is not the only principle in queation in the initial complaint. Most important, IMO, is Apple reserving the right to change the terms of the sale after the sale. And that is not only illegal, but very bad business practice... for the consumer, that is... :(

I don't give a toss about DRM on downloadable media in general. Of course if it actually bothered me I wouldn't even have bought the 8 songs I have from iTMS, but it doesn't. I actually think Fairplay is pretty fair... :)

One thing I don't like so called copy-protected CDs because they can hurt your equipment (car stereos, slot loading PCs, etc) by getting stuck, and you don't get an option to buy real CDs of the "copy-protected" albums, but that's for another thread... ;)

donbluto
Aug 2, 2006, 05:41 AM
I don't feel threatened or harmed, this is not a crusade for me. I would much rather have the consumer council go after Microsoft, don't get me wrong. The point is that the ongoing case against Apple is viewed as a benchmark test for this law, and if the consumer council wins it is expected that they will grab several other international companies by the nuts. Go figure.

Where I think you go wrong is the effects (or lack thereof) you think this will have on iTMS worldwide. There is in fact a potential domino effect here, even though we hardly even count in the big picture. And we don't, I realize that. But what if countries that count a wee bit more than we do follow up on this if Apple lose?

gekko513
Aug 2, 2006, 05:41 AM
I'm sorry, I can't contain myself. *laughs*

Lyra ranted something about: Greedy perverted laws... greedy idea of harming international companies and getting some money out of them, in this certain case, it happens to be Apple...

Do you even know what this case is about? None of the complaints are about getting money from Apple or any other company. All the complaints are about protecting the consumers' rights and making sure that companies don't take advantage of consumers by including obscure terms that can come back and render the purchase the consumer made worthless to him/her some time down the road.

Mitthrawnuruodo
Aug 2, 2006, 05:44 AM
You New York is New York, part of the USA.That's why I said local government... you have that in the US, too, you know... :rolleyes:

Saying that you are small, rich and well educated... And then you even say, you are technologically advanced?

Have you been to Singapore, Kuwait, Japan? I can name a few more places, but let's keep the list short. No I haven't been to any of those places. But what has that to do with anything...? :confused:

Again, this is not a contest, and I didn't even say we were the most technological advanced population in the world, nor the richest.

Just that we as population in general are rich and technologically advanced. Or don't you agree with that?

Dr.Gargoyle
Aug 2, 2006, 06:53 AM
Loosing Denmark, or Norway or both, doesn't matter one bit. It is a courtesy that Apple even allowed these small and meaningless countries to join in on the fun.
Since you claim you work in Denmark, you should know Denmark, as well as Sweden, is a part of European Union (EU). If you had done your homework, you should also know that EU implies that all non-nation specific laws should be idential for all countries in EU (very much the same as in US). That is, if the French and the scandinavians find that Apples DRM violates consumer rights, it has a very good chance to become accepted all over EU. Furthermore, since EU has about 460 million people whereas US only have 296 milion people, it should according to your argumentation about minor markets imply that Apple rather should dump the US market than the european market. :rolleyes:
You should know by now that a company sole purpose is to make money for the shareholders, and nothing else. I very much doubt that board of Apple or its partners even would consider dumping a close to half a billion potential customers.

dsnort
Aug 2, 2006, 07:06 AM
Does anyone know what became of the constitutional challenge to the french iTunes law? I had read somewhere that the opposition party was trying to get the law overturned, haven't seen anything more about it since.

Mitthrawnuruodo
Aug 2, 2006, 07:12 AM
Apple Gets French Support in Music Compatibility Case

By THOMAS CRAMPTON
Published: July 29, 2006

PARIS, July 28 — The French constitutional council, the country’s highest judicial body, has declared major aspects of the so-called iPod law unconstitutional, undermining some controversial aspects of the legislation.

“ Apple’s lawyers might want to drink a glass of French Champagne today, but not a whole bottle,” said Dominique Menard, partner at the Lovells law firm and a specialist in intellectual property. “The constitutional council has highlighted fundamental protections for intellectual property in such a way as to put iTunes a little further from risk of the French law.”

Released late Thursday, the council’s 12-page legal finding made frequent reference to the 1789 Declaration on Human Rights and concluded that the law violated the constitutional protections of property.

The decision affects Apple’s market-dominant iTunes Music Store by undermining the government’s original intention, which was to force Apple and others to sell music online that would be playable on any device. Apple’s iPod is the only portable music device that can play music purchased on iTunes, which lead rivals to complain about anti-competitive practices.

Although the ruling could still require companies like Apple to make music sold online to be compatible with other hand-held devices, it said that the companies could not be forced to do so without receiving compensation. The council also eliminated reduced fines for file sharing.

“The constitutional council effectively highlighted the importance of intellectual property rights,” Mr. Menard said, emphasizing that Apple and other companies must be paid for sharing their copy-protection technology.

The law, which had been approved by the French Senate and National Assembly last month, was brought for review at the demand of more than 100 members of the National Assembly. The council’s review of whether the law fits within the French Constitution’s framework is one of the final steps before a law is promulgated. It now could take effect as altered by the council or the government could bring it once more before the Parliament.

The French minister of culture, Renaud Donnedieu de Vabres, advocated enforced interoperability as a way to ensure diverse cultural offerings on the Internet by limiting technical constraints on digital works.

While the constitutional council highlighted the need for compensation, it was not such good news for Apple and other companies that the principle of forced interoperability remained in place, said Jean-Baptiste Soufron, legal director of the Association of Audionautes, a group opposed to copy restrictions.

“It is good news for Apple because they receive monetary compensation, but much bigger bad news if it forces them to license iTunes,” he said. Link (requires login) (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/29/technology/29music.html?_r=4&ref=business&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=login&oref=slogin)

Hattig
Aug 2, 2006, 08:27 AM
Despite what a couple of posters here seem to be saying, it is good that some countries have a mechanism for protecting consumers from bad situations.

In terms of Apple's DRM however, I think you'll find that each type of DRM is a platform. Much like CDs, cassettes, and so on. I can't play vinyl in my CD player, however I can make a recording of the output, much as I can burn a CD from iTunes of iTMS purchased music.

Also it is not restricted to iPods. You can play it on every Apple Mac and Windows based PC using the freely available software from Apple. You can even play them on a couple of Motorola phones. This will weaken this part of the case against Apple. Apple can say they've taken reasonable measures to ensure that purchased media is available to the purchaser. They'll also state that there is no "No DRM" option available, this is mandated by the music companies. Also they'll state that they're not selling the music under false pretences, and people aren't forced to buy music from their store.

However I hope that the terms and conditions of use are made more consumer friendly. There are laws about terms and conditions when they apply to consumers in the EU - basically they have to be easily understood - i.e., plain english (french, german, etc), and have no unreasonable clauses, and the ability to alter the terms and conditions is an unreasonable clause.

In the past Apple has used that clause to reduce the number of playlist recordings down from 7 to 5 - I don't remember if this happened before iTMS was available outside the US however.

TeppefallGuy
Aug 2, 2006, 09:00 AM
Why all this hostility against Scandinavia ? In Norway we pay 25 percent VAT on music and iPods and expect them to work well with other products.

The Powerbook I am typing this on had a faulty harddrive and crashed after 16 months of use. Apple Norway fixed it for free. Did I have AppleCare ? No, Norwegian law dictates that a consumer electronic product should have no technical problems in the first two years with a maximum of five.

A maxed out 17" MacBook Pro will set you back US $4,304 in Norway. Now you understand why we are kinda picky ?

A nice flat in Oslo/Trondheim costs about the same as in the better parts of San Francisco (Pine Street/Pacific Heights). It is not New York prices.. but we are getting there :(

Yvan256
Aug 2, 2006, 09:19 AM
To use on other devices requires you to have to go through a lot of unnecessary and time consuming hoops.

DRM should be unified - one DRM standard for ALL devices.

While I agree with that (unified DRM), no jumps are required to use the songs on a Windows or OS X computer nor an audio CD player.

Yvan256
Aug 2, 2006, 09:28 AM
The default M4A bit rate used by iTunes is a joke. You have to be 80 years old not to notice the huge difference between a CD and a standard iTunes M4A track.

I'm sorry but most people (I'd say 99.9%) can't hear the difference between a CD and a 128kbps AAC file.

Heck, we got people still using 128kbps MP3 for crying out loud. If they heard any difference (or if it really sounded like crap) we'd see them using 256kbps MP3 instead. Granted, the encoder makes a huge difference, but most files you see on P2P networks are 128kbps.

TeppefallGuy
Aug 2, 2006, 11:22 AM
I'm sorry but most people (I'd say 99.9%) can't hear the difference between a CD and a 128kbps AAC file.

Heck, we got people still using 128kbps MP3 for crying out loud. If they heard any difference (or if it really sounded like crap) we'd see them using 256kbps MP3 instead. Granted, the encoder makes a huge difference, but most files you see on P2P networks are 128kbps.

128 M4A (on my system) cuts the top and bottom out and leaves the middle range intact. Maybe it´s my Sennheiser setup or something but 128 actively alters electronic music, rap and nu metal/rapcore. If you only listen to iTunes you´re in for a shock if you go to a concert.

I think M4A was designed for pop pop pop music :)

Timepass
Aug 2, 2006, 11:29 AM
I'm sorry but most people (I'd say 99.9%) can't hear the difference between a CD and a 128kbps AAC file.

Heck, we got people still using 128kbps MP3 for crying out loud. If they heard any difference (or if it really sounded like crap) we'd see them using 256kbps MP3 instead. Granted, the encoder makes a huge difference, but most files you see on P2P networks are 128kbps.


Well I wouldnt say that. the biggest limiting factor is going to come down to speaker system behind it. High quility speakers it going to be noticible but on lower end stuff you cannt really tell.

Highland
Aug 2, 2006, 11:33 AM
Norway is doing you all a favor. Do not act as stupid ass consumers with no brain. It is your right when you by music to listen to i where ever you want it too.
You payed for it didn't you so now it is yours ....
DRM is ******** and it takes away your rights as a consumers.

Act now stop that ********.

One more thing. At least we have the freedom and our goverment tries too help.
VERY WELL SAID.

A couple of points people always seem to miss.

#1 -- This is not solely about iTunes. It isn't an attack on Apple... it's FOR ALL online music stores.
#2 -- "Just buy CDs" DOES NOT cut it. They won't be around for much longer.

Stop being such asses and realise that proprietary DRM on music, video, pictures or digital books is a really, really, ridiculously stupid thing for consumers and society. I'd rather have no DRM, but if we have to, let's make it something that everyone can use.

Also... this isn't being driven entirely by Apple. The content owners are as much, if not more to blame. We all need to start speaking up about this or we're going to REALLY regret it in a few year's time.

Highland
Aug 2, 2006, 11:45 AM
In terms of Apple's DRM however, I think you'll find that each type of DRM is a platform. Much like CDs, cassettes, and so on. I can't play vinyl in my CD player, however I can make a recording of the output, much as I can burn a CD from iTunes of iTMS purchased music.
There's two important things here though... what you can do, and what you can do legally. Plus, any "red book" CD can be played on any CD player. And anyone who wants can make a CD. That's not the case with Fairplay (the iTunes DRM), or pretty much any DRM on the market right now.

And Lyra... OMG. You don't seem to have any grasp of the situation and are pretty keen on making some very insulting remarks. To suggest Apple (or any other online store) drop a region just because they can't be bullied into changing their local laws to suit a large multinational company is completely insane. You're loco.

And just so everyone knows, I'm not from the US or the EU. I'm not taking sides, and I'm not getting involved in the "my country is worth more to iTMS than yours". ;)

As others have mentioned, these things have a tendency to act as test cases. Once one country sorts this out, others will follow.

TeppefallGuy
Aug 2, 2006, 11:58 AM
1 - Apple will change EULA.
2 - Apple will not allow iTunes music on other players.
3 - Norwegian government person "iTunes music should work on my cellphone".
4 - There is going to be a meeting later this week.

Apple is referred to as "the computer giant Apple". The same label is used when talking about Microsoft/HP/IBM/etc.

-TeppefallGuy Newsroom-

TeppefallGuy
Aug 2, 2006, 12:50 PM
Apple´s response is linked as a PDF. Norwegian text and partially censored with a big black marker.

http://www.nettavisen.no/it/article699846.ece

Nettavisen
"We will not give up, we believe that this is an important consumer question and that the product lock-in they (Apple) have is unreasonable. The Ombudsman believes that locking music to a certain brand of player - is a problem that affects many people. Most people have cell phones that can take many songs, but all the music I have bought from iTunes I can´t listen to via my cell phone, she says."

(direct translation and no cleanup so it´s a bit rough)

-- TeppefallGuy Newsroom --

zac4mac
Aug 2, 2006, 01:33 PM
Lyra - mellow out, we(the USA) have enough people out there P.O.d at us as it is. Like Mel Gibson just said, "It's about existing in harmony in a world that seems to have gone mad."

I'm not fond of DRM, but I see it as a necessary evil for the time being. I buy from iTMSm not for music quality, but for convenience. If I really need quality, I buy the CD and rip. Someday I'm going to archive all my Vinyl - somewhere around 600+ albums, from the 60s-80s; a daunting task I keep procrastinating.

iTMS is not a closed system - music plays, as said on iPods, PCs, Macs, and not mentioned, several Motorola phones. Not as many options as "Plays for Sure", but not as isolated as portayed.

I hope for the folks in France and Scandinavia that they don't force Apple to abandon them. I don't see Apple caving on this issue.

Z

dsnort
Aug 2, 2006, 02:06 PM
Stop being such asses and realise that proprietary DRM on music, video, pictures or digital books is a really, really, ridiculously stupid thing for consumers and society. I'd rather have no DRM, but if we have to, let's make it something that everyone can use.

Also... this isn't being driven entirely by Apple. The content owners are as much, if not more to blame. We all need to start speaking up about this or we're going to REALLY regret it in a few year's time.

That's just wrong on so many levels. I wish I had more time...

gaseby
Aug 2, 2006, 02:58 PM
hi,
I have had a chance to browse through the reply (allthough parts of it was cencored):
- License agreement. Apple distinguish between license agreement for iTunes Jukebox and iTunes Music Store and they mean the government have been mixin this up
- License agreement. They will do som smaller adjustments (clarifications) around the issue of changes to the license agreement would have effect on previously purchased music, the intention was not to have any effect on previously purchased music
- License agreement. They will do changes so it will be clearer to the user when the license agreement has been changed
- DRM, usage of iTunes music files in other players than iPod. They do not give in on this, their argument is 1) it is playable on the PC 2) it may be burned on a CD and played on other CD players. They also blend into the argument that Norway has a fairly new law with respect to music download and copy/usage rights and the different plotical parties and politicians have said "this and that" which may support Apples case. I would assume that sooner or later there will be a court case in order to put more details on the law and its interpretation. This may be it (or not).

With respect to this having impact on other countries there are some arguments in the letter which quotes EU/EØS laws, however their DRM arguments is mainly reflecting their interpretation of Norwegian law.

casperghst42
Aug 2, 2006, 04:39 PM
Your laws ARE perverted (meaning they are not fair and serve only greed).
Just like our laws are perverted in many of our states, yours in your tiny country has a worse effect. After all, you still don't matter in the grand scheme of things...
And sooner or later, Apple will leave you, then you won't be able to buy anything from iTunes...


I think you should look up the word 'perverted' before you use it in this context.

The laws are there to protect the 'user', and there is nothing wrong with that, this case is the same as the case against M$, Apple have an unfair advantage over any other producer of media players, media from iTMS will only play on iTunes or on an iPod, which is what this whole case is about.

Highland
Aug 2, 2006, 08:04 PM
Stop being such asses and realise that proprietary DRM on music, video, pictures or digital books is a really, really, ridiculously stupid thing for consumers and society. I'd rather have no DRM, but if we have to, let's make it something that everyone can use.

Also... this isn't being driven entirely by Apple. The content owners are as much, if not more to blame. We all need to start speaking up about this or we're going to REALLY regret it in a few year's time.That's just wrong on so many levels. I wish I had more time...
I dare you to try and argue against those points. Trust me, I've spent long enough in the music industry and observed all the DRM and copy protection stuff that's been happening since... well... a very long time (since DAT days etc).

#1 "proprietary DRM on music, video, pictures or digital books is a really, really, ridiculously stupid thing" -- So you don't want to have free interchange on products you own with content you've bought a license to play? I'm not saying we have a legal right to play the content where we like, I'm saying we SHOULD.

#2 "I'd rather have no DRM, but if we have to, let's make it something that everyone can use." -- I think it'd be much better to have one DRM model for all. The idea of heaps of different online stores all selling music that only works with one or two devices is just insane. And if you think that wouldn't work because it'd be cracked... well, every DRM model can and will be cracked in time. They all suffer that flaw.

#3 "Also... this isn't being driven entirely by Apple. The content owners are as much, if not more to blame." -- The DRM is there because labels want it, not because Apple does. Period. Don't even bother arguing about that one.

#4 "We all need to start speaking up about this or we're going to REALLY regret it in a few year's time." -- CDs won't be around forever. So what are we going to do when DRMed files are the ONLY choice? That's not an option I like to think about. We need to fight this right now or be in a whole lot of trouble.

Honestly, there's really not really a sane way to argue that proprietary DRM is good for consumers. There's quite a few ways to argue that it's morally not a good thing for society. There's also a few ways to argue that it breaches fair trading practices.

gaseby
Aug 3, 2006, 04:58 AM
The newspaper VG in Norway have an article today where they have interviewed a spokes person from the Council:
- They see the answer to be positive and in the right direction, however a lot remains
- The outstanding issues are:
Not being able to play the purchased music on other players than iPOD
When you purchase the music you cannot regret the purchase after it has been downloaded (they still see this as a problem and it may indicate that they do not know they are talking about, unfortunatelly)

The person also reflects that the current situation clearly indicates that the Noregian concumer laws should be ammended, a statement which to me indikates that the Council are complaining based on "whishful" laws...

This is a pitty since I fully agree with them that the music should be playable on all players.

dsnort
Aug 3, 2006, 10:20 AM
I dare you to try and argue against those points.

:eek: Dare!!??? As in double dog dare!!?? As in triple dog dare with a cherry on top!!?? ( Don't get your bowels in an uproar, I'm only teasing!!:D )

Trust me,

Nope. Prefer to think for myself.

#1 "proprietary DRM on music, video, pictures or digital books is a really, really, ridiculously stupid thing"

Oddly enough I am not in complete disagreement with this. If you will look back earlier in this thread you will see where I opined that Apple would be forced to abandon it's proprietary ways, not by government fiat, but by competitive pressure. To do so otherwise is just to allow companies that have not been able to produce a successful product to feed at the trough that Apple built.

So you don't want to have free interchange on products you own with content you've bought a license to play?

Depends on the license. I have a license to drive a passenger vehicle. If I want to ride a motorcycle on the road, I have to get a different license. If you don't like the license offered by a certain vendor, then take your business elsewhere.

"I'd rather have no DRM, .....The content owners are as much, if not more to blame." -- The DRM is there because labels want it, not because Apple does. Period. Don't even bother arguing about that one.


This is the argument that most pains me. For better or worse, and whether we like it or not, the content owners OWN THE CONTENT. It is their property, and they are free to do with it as they please, up to and including making it unavailable for digital download. And many content owners do just that because they feel the DRM is too lenient, and is depriving them of revenue. If you don't believe me, go to iTMS and try to find any recordings by Garth Brooks, ACDC, the Beatles, etc. etc.. EDIT: Honesty compels me to acknowledge that I do not know for certain why this content is not there, DRM may not be involved. That being said, it does underscore that many content owners do not find online digital downloads advantageous at this time, and I'm certain that that's not because they find the DRM unfair to the consumer.

CDs won't be around forever.

Maybe, but my opinion is that the music industry will adopt a model similar to the movie industry, new content available on CD now, digital downloads in 6 months to a year

Honestly, there's really not really a sane way to argue that proprietary DRM is good for consumers.

How do you sanely argue that the consumer, who is getting exactly what they paid for, is being harmed? More honestly you would argue that the consumer is trying to change the terms of the deal they willingly signed up for, and using the Consumer Council of Norway to put the "strong-arm" on Apple. Remember, "Caveat Emptor"!

Highland
Aug 3, 2006, 07:48 PM
:eek: Dare!!??? As in double dog dare!!?? As in triple dog dare with a cherry on top!!?? ( Don't get your bowels in an uproar, I'm only teasing!!:D )
I'm not upset :)

I just find it really strange for people to defend questionable actions of large companies!

Nope. Prefer to think for myself.
That's the best way for all of us to act.

Oddly enough I am not in complete disagreement with this. If you will look back earlier in this thread you will see where I opined that Apple would be forced to abandon it's proprietary ways, not by government fiat, but by competitive pressure. To do so otherwise is just to allow companies that have not been able to produce a successful product to feed at the trough that Apple built.
In a situation where one company has a monopoly, they're not likely to be challenged by competitive pressure.

Depends on the license. I have a license to drive a passenger vehicle. If I want to ride a motorcycle on the road, I have to get a different license. If you don't like the license offered by a certain vendor, then take your business elsewhere.
The license for iTMS you're defending also states that the license may be changed at Apple's discretion at any point with no recourse from the consumer. This means they could say "guess what, none of your songs can be burnt to a CD any more", or "all iTMS songs, including previous ones you've bought, only work on the new iPod micro". Agreements like that are illegal in most counties. This is one of the MAIN points Norway is contesting.

This is the argument that most pains me. For better or worse, and whether we like it or not, the content owners OWN THE CONTENT. It is their property, and they are free to do with it as they please, up to and including making it unavailable for digital download.
While I certainly agree with that (they do own the content), it's about "balance of power". Right now the music industry has pretty much all of it. Think of an employment situation where the employer has all the power... without someone to defend the employees (minimum wages etc), they can ask the employees to work for whatever they choose.

Noway just has good representation for it's people. That's a GOOD thing.

Here in Australia, Apple's dead pixel policy is the same as it is worldwide (I think it's something like "we won't replace anything with less than 4 dead pixels"). That agreement is actually illegal here... any manufacturing defect within reason is deemed as faulty, so I can take my brand new 30" Apple display that I paid a fortune for back to the store and swap it for one that's actually like the one in the brochure ;)

Without laws like this in place, companies can run rampant.

Maybe, but my opinion is that the music industry will adopt a model similar to the movie industry, new content available on CD now, digital downloads in 6 months to a year.
Ok, this one I'm going to totally, and completely flat out disagree with you. CDs will die as soon as digital downloads are successful enough. Why?

Pros:
- No need for stock control, warehouses, freight
- No need for manufacturing
- No need for artwork printing, or even expensive artwork (crappy JPEGs are pretty cheap to knock up)
- The ability to lock EVERYONE in to DRM, and not have a non-DRM version of the songs on the market (big plus)
- Simultaneous world-wide release to all digital music stores is a snap, and much easier than dealing with all the retail chains

Cons:
- Some consumers won't buy digital downloads... but what choice do they have now? If they want the song, they'll buy it MWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA.

How do you sanely argue that the consumer, who is getting exactly what they paid for, is being harmed? More honestly you would argue that the consumer is trying to change the terms of the deal they willingly signed up for, and using the Consumer Council of Norway to put the "strong-arm" on Apple. Remember, "Caveat Emptor"!
Firstly, remember that the iTMS agreement has a point where they can change any aspect of the agreement at any time.

Secondly, it's about abuse of power. "Getting what you agreed to" doesn't cut it if it's an unfair contract to begin with. I think some of you might not know that the sole reason that artists get a reasonable amount of money from a successful song exists BECAUSE governing bodies stepped in and set up the mechanical/publishing royalty system. It's the kind of thing that the music industry can't be left to self regulate. They will f&^k it up.

dsnort
Aug 3, 2006, 09:08 PM
Highland
I'm going to try to do this without all that cumbersome quoting we've been doing.

1.Cool, we all need to laugh sometimes. And big company or individual, right is right, and wrong is wrong. It is no more ethical to trample the rights of the large than it is to run roughshod over the small. ( Because where do you draw the line between big and small, and who gets to decide?) And just in case you think I will always jump to Apples defense, I personally think they are dead wrong on the dead pixel issue. Anyone receiving a new product from a manufacturer has a right to expect it to be properly functional with no obvious defects.

2.What? We agree on something? ( I must have my open mind meter set too high!)

3.Disagree that iPod is a monopoly. MP3 players introduced in 1998, first download service, Napster P2P, in 1999. iPod into'd 2001. If I remember correctly currently 70% of market(?). Even the French legislature admitted that there was fierce competition in the online music business, and that the competition was effective.

4.I believe Apples letter to the CC of Norway clarified that changes to the agreement only affected FUTURE downloads, and had no effect on files downloaded prior to the change. There is no "Ex Post Facto" effect.

5. Ehhh, the balance of power can be a bit slippery. The maiin reason they have all the power, is because we give it to them! We vote with our dollars. Just like the main reason we have $3.00/gallon gas (US) is because we continue to go to the pump and pay $3.00 for a gallon of gas. If we would find ways to limit our usage, the price would come down. But everyone is convinced that they should be able to jump in an auto and hare off around town on the slightest pretext. The wife and I have reduced our gas bill about 40% a week just by taking the time to plan out our trips so as to accomplish as much as possible in one trip, instead of making 5 trips. (Meanwhile, my sister inlaw lives in her car, and is the loudest complainer about the price of gas you've ever heard)
Similiarly, we have this insane argument over the terms of some service we didn't even know about 10 years ago, but have convinced ourselves we can't live without!

6.As for the cd thing, I guess only time will which of us, if either of us, is right.

Well, the wifes abed, need to go before she gets sleepy;)

G'night, and look forward to hearing from you.

IF YOU DARE:D LOL

Highland
Aug 3, 2006, 10:24 PM
1. Agreed. The only situation governing bodies should step in is in extreme cases. The dead pixel thing is really just a case of Apple trying to push their luck I think. Quite a few manufacturers do that with dead pixels.

2. :)

3. The iPod isn't a monopoly, but iTMS might be considered one soon, driven by the fact that it only operates with it's own player (which isn't really any better than the competition). I'm not arguing that iTMS or the iPod is bad. In fact, I think they're both great and might be considered the saviour of the recording industry if we get this DRM mess fixed.

4. Apple's agreement with users can be changed at any point (according to Apple). That's illegal in some countries, plain and simple. The changes to the situation in Norway might be only "from now onwards", but the iTMS agreement still says they can shift the rules for songs purchased dating back to the launch of iTMS.

5. Yes and no. Sure, we all vote with our dollars, but when the only players are big companies and the four major labels are all working only with a small selection of online stores, we're not left with enough choices to show how we'd like things done. If you like an artist then you have to put up with whatever's served.

Another example of how things have been done well in the past for the music industry is the current situation with cover songs. It works really well. Anyone can cover anyone, but the original artist gets paid 100% of the song writing royalties (publishing), while the new performer gets all the mechanical royalties (physical sales). It works, and it's law. I doubt a system like that would be put in place today. Today it'd be all like "I own this song so no one else can touch it!". We all need to mature a little and look at this from a more positive angle for everyone, rather than short term greed.

6. Yep, time will tell. Although I think you probably do agree that CDs will die, it's just a matter of time, and what they're replaced with. I can't see another physical audio format being introduced and having any mainstream success though.

dsnort
Aug 4, 2006, 07:56 AM
Still can't agree with ya on the cd thing for one reason, I went to a movie theatre this past weekend. I may be showing my age, but i can remember when the hue and cry was that the availibity of movies on VHS was going to put the theatres out of business, but it didn't. There are always going to be those who want the latest and greatest right now, without having to wait, and these people are willing to pay a premium. Some type of physical media will allow them to do that.

Saerd
Aug 4, 2006, 08:44 AM
It would be sad if they'd decide to close them. :(

dsnort
Aug 4, 2006, 09:54 AM
I was thinking, ( always a dangerous activity).

There IS one thing that could make me switch over to the cross platform compatibility side of this argument.

That would be if the CC of Norway enforced it ACROSS THE BOARD!

My first MP3 player was a Creative Zen Micro. The only reason I have an iPod is because when I switched to Macs, the nice people at Creative Labs informed me that their sync software DID NOT SUPPORT MAC OS.

I can't even access Sony's Connect music store on my Mac. I'm told I need to "upgrade to Internet Explorer 5.5 or higher". (Upgrade to IE??? Bwahahahahaha!!! Those silly wabbits. :D)

I have a couple of programs I used in my PC days that are completely useless now, they won't run on Mac OS. Why not? I bought them! I paid for them! What right do these software companies have to lock me into a single platform?

I have, at last count, 317 files on my comp with the extension .xls. If I should decide I prefer to use Lotus, will I be able to open these files as is? Or will I have to take the time to convert them to XML format? Will I lose any of the custom formatting these files contain? ( I honestly don't know. I'm just beginning to learn the ODF stuff. Beside, current version of Lotus appears to be Windows only!) And these files aren't something I paid for, they are my own creations!

I'd be more than willing to see Apple surrender some iPod sales, (given the quality of the product, I don't think it would be much), if it would remove the single largest block against switching to Mac OS; the availabilty of software! Then the OS's could compete on other planes; features, ease of use, quality of computing experience, stability, etc. All of which would be, dare I say, good for the consumer?

Maybe I'm just a silly dreamer, but imagine the boon to Mac and Linux users if all these software development companies were forced to make their products interoperable, with the same functionality, and price.

What a beautiful place the world would be! :cool:

applebum
Aug 5, 2006, 12:09 PM
I was thinking, ( always a dangerous activity).

There IS one thing that could make me switch over to the cross platform compatibility side of this argument.

That would be if the CC of Norway enforced it ACROSS THE BOARD!

My first MP3 player was a Creative Zen Micro. The only reason I have an iPod is because when I switched to Macs, the nice people at Creative Labs informed me that their sync software DID NOT SUPPORT MAC OS.

I can't even access Sony's Connect music store on my Mac. I'm told I need to "upgrade to Internet Explorer 5.5 or higher". (Upgrade to IE??? Bwahahahahaha!!! Those silly wabbits. :D)

I have a couple of programs I used in my PC days that are completely useless now, they won't run on Mac OS. Why not? I bought them! I paid for them! What right do these software companies have to lock me into a single platform?

I have, at last count, 317 files on my comp with the extension .xls. If I should decide I prefer to use Lotus, will I be able to open these files as is? Or will I have to take the time to convert them to XML format? Will I lose any of the custom formatting these files contain? ( I honestly don't know. I'm just beginning to learn the ODF stuff. Beside, current version of Lotus appears to be Windows only!) And these files aren't something I paid for, they are my own creations!

I'd be more than willing to see Apple surrender some iPod sales, (given the quality of the product, I don't think it would be much), if it would remove the single largest block against switching to Mac OS; the availabilty of software! Then the OS's could compete on other planes; features, ease of use, quality of computing experience, stability, etc. All of which would be, dare I say, good for the consumer?

Maybe I'm just a silly dreamer, but imagine the boon to Mac and Linux users if all these software development companies were forced to make their products interoperable, with the same functionality, and price.

What a beautiful place the world would be! :cool:

dsnort - finally, someone has hit the nail on the head. A standard DRM does not help ALL consumers - only those using Windows. This is why I see these rules/laws as fluff. There has to be 2 parts to any law before I will see it as positive. First - the law must insist on OS Neutrality. Meaning, if you want to have an online music store, it must work on Linux, Mac, and Windows. You make a music player, then it must have drivers or work on Linux, Mac and Windows. Once you have that, then let's get a universal DRM that is used by all these music stores and all these music players. Until both things happen, these laws do not help all consumers. And isn't what these laws are supposed to do - help the consumer???

My household has nothing but Macs. If these "laws" were enacted and we suddenly had a universal DRM, it would NOT help me as a consumer. I would still only be able to use iTunes, as none of the other big music stores (Sony, Yahoo, Napster, Real, Microsoft, Walmart) work on a Mac. I could perhaps buy a different player, but that would only help if that player had drivers or software that would work on a Mac.

These "laws" seemed to be created by Windows using politicians who don't truly understand what it would take to be fair to ALL consumers. It seems that they only care about whether Windows users get all the bells, whistles, and benefits. So I say leave it the way it is until it will help everyone.