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MacRumors
Aug 3, 2006, 01:29 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

InsideMacGames reports (http://www.insidemacgames.com/news/story.php?ID=13850) on TransGaming's (http://www.transgaming.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&file=index&func=display&ceid=24) announcement of a software portability engine called Cider.

Cider allows video game developers to deploy their Windows-based titles to Apple's new Intel-based Macs quickly and easily without the need for "traditional" porting.

According to the press release, this portability engine could allow publishers to release to both Windows and Mac simultaneously, ending the long delays that Mac users have come to expect with gaming titles.

With Cider, game developers and publishers can easily extend their triple A portfolio to Intel Mac without any effort or delay which means that avid Mac gamers will have access to triple A video games coincidental with the Windows release

Cider requires no changes to the original source code. Instead, Cider actually loads the Windows-based game and links them to a set of optimized Win32 APIs. The process is similar to how WINE/CrossOver (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/06/20060630170338.shtml) works allowing users to run Windows applications under Mac OS X without emulation.

These games, of course, would not run on PowerPC Macs, and could have consequences with Mac-focused developer companies which have provided porting services in the past.

boncellis
Aug 3, 2006, 01:30 PM
Could this mean an end to the whining within these hallowed halls?

It's the end of an era. ;)

Stridder44
Aug 3, 2006, 01:30 PM
Awesome. Now if only games didn't run slower under OS X in the first place.

pianodude123
Aug 3, 2006, 01:33 PM
Say goodbye to native OS X game development.

:(

Eidorian
Aug 3, 2006, 01:34 PM
Awesome. Now if only games didn't run slower under OS X in the first place.Maybe some DirectX to OpenGL overhead. :(

Say goodbye to native OS X game development.

:(I don't see that happening. I don't see CURRENT OS X game developers just giving up. It's not like they're porting games. They already have an established fan base and are making games natively for OS X.

Chaszmyr
Aug 3, 2006, 01:34 PM
I don't know if this is very good news or very bad news... Depends on how well it works and how easy it makes things for developers I guess. If i am lucky enough to get to play NWN2 because of this, I'll be a happy camper.

mainstreetmark
Aug 3, 2006, 01:36 PM
THis is good news. Puts to rest one of the big three anti-mac arguments:

1. No software - bootcamp
2. No games - cider
3. Expensive - YGWYPF

Stridder44
Aug 3, 2006, 01:37 PM
Maybe some DirectX to Open GL overhead. :(


No kidding. Ever heard of WoW running up to 20 fps faster under windows on an Intel iMac than under OS X? I'll look for the link

steve_hill4
Aug 3, 2006, 01:37 PM
Would be nice if they could still concentrate on bringing out quality Mac versions of popular games. I hope this only adds to the range available and not swallow up native development.

Oh well, this is still great news. We'll see however.

Felldownthewell
Aug 3, 2006, 01:40 PM
If this works, I would be quite happy. I could delete my windows partition! Weee! Now, if it weren't 105 outside...when are we going to see the iWeather?

BoyBach
Aug 3, 2006, 01:40 PM
2. No games - cider


Alcohol is not the solution to a problem :p

alec
Aug 3, 2006, 01:40 PM
Aspyr is about to be Joe Liebermaned...

shawnce
Aug 3, 2006, 01:44 PM
Maybe some DirectX to OpenGL overhead. :( No kidding. Ever heard of WoW running up to 20 fps faster under windows on an Intel iMac than under OS X? I'll look for the link
???

WoW on Mac OS X on an Intel Mac still uses OpenGL, DirectX doesn't come into play... so I don't understand your statement.

thejadedmonkey
Aug 3, 2006, 01:44 PM
How does this differ from WINE? Doesn't WINE do the same exact thing?

Cider-powered games use the same copy protection, lobbies, game matching, and connectivity as the original title.Starforce? Will our macs end up with CD-ROM issues due to driver crap like XP has?

nsjoker
Aug 3, 2006, 01:44 PM
<sarcasm> oh yeah, i'm sure games will run really well with this </sarcasm>

shawnce
Aug 3, 2006, 01:46 PM
This likely means Windows like UI (in behavior maybe not look... it wont follow Mac OS X behaviors well)... luckily most games are almost 100% in game UI rendered via OpenGL.

shawnce
Aug 3, 2006, 01:48 PM
How does this differ from WINE? Doesn't WINE do the same exact thing? It sounds like WINE (likely is WINE based) but likely more focused on the subset of WIN32 that most game stick to using.

jaxstate
Aug 3, 2006, 01:50 PM
hahahah! Yeah i'd wait for some real world benchmarks before I get too happy.
<sarcasm> oh yeah, i'm sure games will run really well with this </sarcasm>

Stridder44
Aug 3, 2006, 01:50 PM
???

WoW on Mac OS X on an Intel Mac still uses OpenGL, DirectX doesn't come into play... so I don't understand your statement.


Well I can't say that it's 100% without a doubt true but I've heard alot of comments from people that can agree with me.

Also, http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/games/mac_wow_performance.html

A quote from the article:
I was seeing about 25-30 FPS in the Ironforge Auction House area in OS X. With the same settings, I was seeing about 40-45 FPS in the same location with similar crowds in XP.

shawnce
Aug 3, 2006, 01:55 PM
Well I can't say that it's 100% without a doubt true but I've heard alot of comments from people that can agree with me.

Also, http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/games/mac_wow_performance.html

A quote from the article:

The performance gain exists... I wasn't questioning that... I was questioning the context of your post.

jmarte
Aug 3, 2006, 01:56 PM
Maybe I missed it, but when is it going to be released?

Chaszmyr
Aug 3, 2006, 01:57 PM
Maybe I missed it, but when is it going to be released?

It's not a consumer product, it is for developers, and there are developers that already have it in their hands.

mdntcallr
Aug 3, 2006, 01:59 PM
Well, here i think a couple things:

1- This could be great. more games for macs (intels)
2- can i say it again, more games for the mac
3- Native development shouldnt be dead, because my bet is this software will run a little slower than native windows games on windows. so performance games will have a reason to develop for mac. ie, ID games

Apple should have some tricks up it's sleeves regarding gaming as well. I bet a real program to push it, including more gaming high end graphics type macs.

shawnce
Aug 3, 2006, 02:01 PM
So far it only states it provides Win32 APIs... nothing about DirectX stated (I don't really think of DirectX as part of the Win32 API set). This makes me wonder if it attempts to provide DirectX APIs or not.

If not then this product only makes the porting of games that use (or can use) OpenGL (and things like OpenAL for audio) a little easier. Personally in my experience not that much easier... it is relatively trivial to rework Win32 based UI (and lower level stuff like file access) with a Cocoa UI and use of POSIX API.

The main issue for many games is the exclusive use of DirectX.

Chaszmyr
Aug 3, 2006, 02:03 PM
Shawnce, I think it must provide DirectX APIs, otherwise it would be practically worthless. Games that don't use DirectX are much easier to port to begin with.

amols
Aug 3, 2006, 02:04 PM
I wonder who's going to need Mac native games ported from PC a year later when new Macs can run Windows natively. As the old saying goes.."Why buy the milk when you own a cow"..The Mac game porting companies were already doomed when Apple released Boot Camp. My PC copy of Doom 3 runs perfectly well on MBP.

ictiosapiens
Aug 3, 2006, 02:06 PM
Can't be WINE based, WINE is based on grapes... CIDER is apple based...

[/bad joke]

nagromme
Aug 3, 2006, 02:09 PM
Whether traditionally ported or with Cider, there is a BIG need for Mac-native games, and I have no doubt they will continue to be offered. Rebooting (and defending myself from viruses when I go online--time wasted, at best) is not an acceptable alternative even if Windows were free, which it's not. Running Windows is a last resort, and it's nice to have the option, but it's no better than that. (Parallels is neat, but not for gaming now--and also not free, and also not immune from Windows viruses. And I'm inclined to believe Apple when they say they're not offering virtualization of their own.)

To that end, I look forward to seeing what comes of Cider. Given the timing, and the fact that it's a developer product, I wonder if Steve will demo it on Monday?

I can accept that Cider might entail a little CPU overhead: Intel's new chips are fast enough to handle it.

rainmanbk
Aug 3, 2006, 02:10 PM
Can't be WINE based, WINE is based on grapes... CIDER comes from apples...

[/bad joke]

Haha. That made me laugh.

Anyways, I feel that this can only be a step in the right direction. If this works well enough that it is widely accepted, and we can only hope, then what does it matter if Mac game developers are phased out. Isn't there a lot more money in Windows games anyways? Those developers need to realized that the real money is not in Mac games. Although I am also positive that they are most likely not in it for the money, but still. If somebody has to lose to gain "gaming" for Macs, then by all means, I'm for it.

This seems like the perfect solution.

If I hit a nerve, I'm sorry.

jaxstate
Aug 3, 2006, 02:12 PM
I agree. I game 100% in Windows. Waiting a year or more for a game to be ported isn't good business.
I wonder who's going to need Mac native games ported from PC a year later when new Macs can run Windows natively. As the old saying goes.."Why buy the milk when you own a cow"..The Mac game porting companies were already doomed when Apple released Boot Camp. My PC copy of Doom 3 runs perfectly well on MBP.

bousozoku
Aug 3, 2006, 02:17 PM
Various porting companies already have libraries to support the major APIs of DirectX and convert them to native Mac OS X API calls, where Apple has them. They just don't sell what they've written for other companies to buy.

There will still be plenty of overhead but maybe they're better than the various companies who already have lots of experience with Mac OS X.

rbarris
Aug 3, 2006, 02:18 PM
No kidding. Ever heard of WoW running up to 20 fps faster under windows on an Intel iMac than under OS X? I'll look for the link

I have heard those stories. We're doing something about it.

Ask again after WWDC.

Rob (Blizzard Mac Team)

Eidorian
Aug 3, 2006, 02:22 PM
I wonder who's going to need Mac native games ported from PC a year later when new Macs can run Windows natively. As the old saying goes.."Why buy the milk when you own a cow"..The Mac game porting companies were already doomed when Apple released Boot Camp. My PC copy of Doom 3 runs perfectly well on MBP.Uh, it'll allow publishers/developers to make Windows games Intel Mac compatible without PORTING the code. Just tack Cider onto a Windows game and you get an OS X one as well.

5) How much does does Cider cost?
The business model for Cider is based on a revenue share with the publisher with no upfront fee, no risk and lots of upside potential.

dextertangocci
Aug 3, 2006, 02:24 PM
Yay!:) I like games:) :D

ampd
Aug 3, 2006, 02:25 PM
As I occasionally feel the need to play games every once and awhile this is great news for me since I have finally decided that this coming Monday will be the day I convert to Macs...

Dalriada
Aug 3, 2006, 02:25 PM
Now just how am I going to break this news to my Powerbook.... :(

nws0291
Aug 3, 2006, 02:27 PM
Well I can't say that it's 100% without a doubt true but I've heard alot of comments from people that can agree with me.

Also, http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/games/mac_wow_performance.html

A quote from the article:

I also remember people overclocking the gpu using windows only software so that right there is a performance boost since the x1600's are underclocked in the Macbook Pro for heat/power reasons.

jaxstate
Aug 3, 2006, 02:30 PM
Not to get off topic, could apple could fix this with a SW update? I've also read about how the 1600's are underclocked in MBP.
I also remember people overclocking the gpu using windows only software so that right there is a performance boost since the x1600's are underclocked in the Macbook Pro for heat/power reasons.

balamw
Aug 3, 2006, 02:49 PM
It sounds like WINE (likely is WINE based) but likely more focused on the subset of WIN32 that most game stick to using.
Transgaming's WineX/Cedega is a fork from the main Wine project (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedega) aimed at supporting DirectX.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/winex/

Like Crossover there are both commercial closed and open source elements to the project.

B

Stridder44
Aug 3, 2006, 02:51 PM
I have heard those stories. We're doing something about it.

Ask again after WWDC.

Rob (Blizzard Mac Team)


For serious? Why after WWD- wait........you know something.....


Also I wasn't directly targeting WoW, it was more of a blanket statement (but then again Im not even sure if it's true for other games as well).

Eidorian
Aug 3, 2006, 02:52 PM
For serious? Why after WWD- wait........you know something.....http://forums.macrumors.com/search.php?searchid=4020477

O RLY?

kalisphoenix
Aug 3, 2006, 02:58 PM
"Why buy the milk when you own a cow"

Or, as people on Earth say, "Why buy the cow when you can have the milk for free?"

dernhelm
Aug 3, 2006, 03:01 PM
Can't be WINE based, WINE is based on grapes... CIDER is apple based...

[/bad joke]

Funny, I thought WINE was based on Dandelions...

kalisphoenix
Aug 3, 2006, 03:05 PM
I was sitting on Steve Jobs' lap the other day, spoonfeeding him his cappucino, and he said "Why EFI, Kalisphoenix?"

And I said, "Why the #@$% are you asking me?"

"Well," he said, "because we can toss a thin DirectX compatibility layer into it and add a hard-suspend hook into OS X so that you can sleep Aqua with the execution of certain programs, like... games... and have far more free memory and processor capacity, not to mention the total unload of a rather hefty compositor. Games will actually run better than they did on XP."

"Really?" I asked.

"No."

Stridder44
Aug 3, 2006, 03:09 PM
http://forums.macrumors.com/search.php?searchid=4020477

O RLY?


Sorry - no matches. Please try some different terms.

YA RLY

slu
Aug 3, 2006, 03:09 PM
I can't believe the thread has gone on this long without someone complaining about how the fact that the mini and macbook use integrated graphics makes this annoucement irrelevant since the performance of the games will be crappy.

Now I don't necessarily agree with this statement. Especially since I have not tried this out.

I just thought every thread about games was required to have a complaint about integrated graphics on the first page.:D

Church
Aug 3, 2006, 03:11 PM
"Where such ports normally require total code conversion, Cider should eliminate that by using a shell that wraps around an existing Windows code base. It operates by first loading the app into memory (on an Intel-based Mac), and from there connecting to an optimized set of Win32 APIs."

That's from macnn (http://www.macnn.com/articles/06/08/03/windows.games.on.mactels/). Kinda makes it sound like it takes more memory than it would normally take to run a regular mac native app. So, it brings up the question of how much extra memory will we have to have inorder to run these games at windows-like speeds? :confused:

ictiosapiens
Aug 3, 2006, 03:14 PM
I was sitting on Steve Jobs' lap the other day, spoonfeeding him his cappucino, and he said "Why EFI, Kalisphoenix?"

And I said, "Why the #@$% are you asking me?"

"Well," he said, "because we can toss a thin DirectX compatibility layer into it and add a hard-suspend hook into OS X so that you can sleep Aqua with the execution of certain programs, like... games... and have far more free memory and processor capacity, not to mention the total unload of a rather hefty compositor. Games will actually run better than they did on XP."

"Really?" I asked.

"No."


That was too funny...

greenstork
Aug 3, 2006, 03:30 PM
I don't know if this is very good news or very bad news... Depends on how well it works and how easy it makes things for developers I guess. If i am lucky enough to get to play NWN2 because of this, I'll be a happy camper.

It's all about the FPS, we'll have to wait and see.

greenstork
Aug 3, 2006, 03:31 PM
Aspyr is about to be Joe Liebermaned...

Time for you to get out of DC :rolleyes:

greenstork
Aug 3, 2006, 03:33 PM
The performance gain exists... I wasn't questioning that... I was questioning the context of your post.

When you boot Windows on an Intel iMac, you use DirectX, plain and simple, his post makes perfect sense.

kalisphoenix
Aug 3, 2006, 03:36 PM
That was too funny...

It's basically how I feel about Apple in general. Everyone's seen that "Apple Product Cycle" thing, but I'd like to make it a bit more personal.

Day Zero: WWDC.

Week One: Excitement about Core Fiddler and XCongrabula gradually dies out. "Why didn't they do that 'fast-OS swapping' or 'new Front Row' or 'adding some better configuration options to skinning/slideshows/et cetera'? Oh well, at least it's faster and less buggy."

Week Two: "Oh well, there's always MW Paris."

Week Three: Desperation sets in. "I can't possibly make it until Paris." *smokes a joint* "Hey... what if they turned OS X into a ZUI, incorporating those touchscreens that you don't touch? What if the OS could drop back to EFI and use that for Front Row? What if Apple made .Mac free?"

Week Four: In need of a shave, our hero stays up until all hours of the night defending his brand o' choice against Windows users. "I didn't buy my Mac to play games, you silly bastards. Fast OS swapping doesn't really matter to me. Nor does a new, less-crippled Front Row, or all the configuration options that I deeply want. And Leopard will be faster and less buggy."

Week Five: Hero bittorrents a dev version of Leopard and accidentally nukes his hard drive trying to install it (including well over 1100 painfully-detailed pages of ideas for his next book, 100GB of music he loves, his "Worms 3D" savegame, and his secret cache of Monica Bellucci pictures). He accepts it philosophically. "At least I'll get to play around with Leopard."

Week Six: Our hero finally boots into Leopard. "Hmm. The menu bar is a bit less shiny. The Apple in the Apple Menu is a bit flatter in color. The Dock is a bit more transparent." He attempts to play with Core Fiddler and XCongrabula, but suffers from kernel panicks.

Week Seven: The week before MW Paris. Any discrepancies between the chronologies of this chart and reality should be blamed upon the heroic doses of psilocybin mushrooms he has been taking in between frantic "Don't make it feature-complete yet! I HAVE AN IDEA!" emails to sjobs@apple.com and pleas for career advice from Stephen King.

Week Eight: MW Paris. The iPod nano gets a higher capacity, a different case, and a new iGadget. Doors are locked, windows are barred, and our hero's beard grows even longer.

Week Nine: A dinner with Dean Koontz ends in tragedy. World rejoices. Hero is comatose for many weeks, but when he wakes up.... he thinks it is still

Week Ten: MWSF. Steve Jobs makes a sly allusion to the next version of OS X, called "Lynx." Rumors abound that it might contain fast-OS swapping, a zoomable UI, drops to EFI, and so forth. Hero shaves and steps out into the bright light of a new day.

Stridder44
Aug 3, 2006, 03:38 PM
When you boot Windows on an Intel iMac, you use DirectX, plain and simple, his post makes perfect sense.


Thank you greenstork

macidiot
Aug 3, 2006, 03:38 PM
I wonder who's going to need Mac native games ported from PC a year later when new Macs can run Windows natively. As the old saying goes.."Why buy the milk when you own a cow"..The Mac game porting companies were already doomed when Apple released Boot Camp. My PC copy of Doom 3 runs perfectly well on MBP.


Boot camp is not the best solution. Don't get me wrong it's very cool.

But having to completely reboot your machine to play a game is a complete PITA. I often have plenty of other apps running in the background when I'm playing a game of Civ 4 on my Mac. In other words, I actually use my computer for something other than pure gaming.

Oh, and I'd rather just pay $40-$50 to play Doom 3 instead of $150 (Doom + the cheapest version of Windows available).

iMikeT
Aug 3, 2006, 03:52 PM
Finally, a way for me to rid Windoze from my life for good!:D

shawnce
Aug 3, 2006, 03:56 PM
When you boot Windows on an Intel iMac, you use DirectX, plain and simple, his post makes perfect sense.

No s%*t =P

Yes true but I was asking in the context of running WoW under Mac OS X on an Intel Mac... maybe I miss read his original post... because I thought that was what his statement was about... looking back now he did say windows... my bad.

shawnce
Aug 3, 2006, 03:58 PM
Thank you greenstork

I simply misread you original statement...

shawnce
Aug 3, 2006, 04:00 PM
Transgaming's WineX/Cedega is a fork from the main Wine project (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedega) aimed at supporting DirectX.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/winex/

Like Crossover there are both commercial closed and open source elements to the project.

Ok that makes more sense then... it would really need to support DirectX to be of much benefit in porting (OpenGL capable games are generally easy to port to Mac... I have helped on a few).

G.Kirby
Aug 3, 2006, 04:09 PM
If Battle Front 2 gets a couple of pints of Cider and the benchmarks are good I will need to get me one of the new Intel towers that may be released next week. Then I can shoot the snot out of my PC using friends :D

deconai
Aug 3, 2006, 04:14 PM
As always, there is the issue of performance...

Now all we need is a quad-SLI Mac.

Eidorian
Aug 3, 2006, 04:22 PM
YA RLYNO WAI

http://forums.macrumors.com/member.php?u=23696

Click on "Find all posts by rbarris". I guess it's a search term. So it's time limited.

SteveRichardson
Aug 3, 2006, 04:58 PM
excellent news

bankshot
Aug 3, 2006, 05:43 PM
Apparently this is for commercial games only. According to their FAQ, their pricing model pretty much excludes any shareware or freeware game developers, which really, really sucks:

5) How much does does Cider cost?
The business model for Cider is based on a revenue share with the publisher with no upfront fee, no risk and lots of upside potential.

So rather than charging a reasonable fee for the product, they want a piece of your revenue forever. What if you have little or no revenue? I'd much rather see them charge $1000 or whatever for rights to use it in any product you create thereafter. Just like libraries that come with any compiler.

Of course, they're probably just looking for a big payday if they can get one of the really popular game makers to sign on.

Electro Funk
Aug 3, 2006, 05:50 PM
Say goodbye to native OS X game development.

:(

dear god people... if i had a $1.00 for everytime someone said this here at MR i would retire this year... :rolleyes:

ezekielrage_99
Aug 3, 2006, 07:40 PM
This is good news and I think it will show most developers they can have games on a Mac. As long as the speed of the games are very playable this will be very good news for Mac gaming in the long run.

ezekielrage_99
Aug 3, 2006, 08:16 PM
dear god people... if i had a $1.00 for everytime someone said this here at MR i would retire this year... :rolleyes:

I wish I was in on that as well, but seriously people are panic merchants especially when it comes to Mac gaming any small change or decent development we see the "that's the end for games on Apple forever posts".

I remember hearing these rumors when Apple first announced we are going to use Intel processors......

tominated
Aug 4, 2006, 12:27 AM
One word; WOOHOO!:D

Lollypop
Aug 4, 2006, 12:48 AM
I wish I was in on that as well, but seriously people are panic merchants especially when it comes to Mac gaming any small change or decent development we see the "that's the end for games on Apple forever posts".

I remember hearing these rumors when Apple first announced we are going to use Intel processors......

I think people are worried the little that is there will just go away and they will be forced to use windows forever :eek:

I personally would like apple to provide a bit of support to game developers, I hate to agree with balmer but its all about the developers, and if apple started kissing game developer ass maybe we would see more native games!

fblack
Aug 4, 2006, 01:05 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

InsideMacGames reports (http://www.insidemacgames.com/news/story.php?ID=13850) on TransGaming's (http://www.transgaming.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&file=index&func=display&ceid=24) announcement of a software portability engine called Cider.

Cider allows video game developers to deploy their Windows-based titles to Apple's new Intel-based Macs quickly and easily without the need for "traditional" porting.

According to the press release, this portability engine could allow publishers to release to both Windows and Mac simultaneously, ending the long delays that Mac users have come to expect with gaming titles.



Cider requires no changes to the original source code. Instead, Cider actually loads the Windows-based game and links them to a set of optimized Win32 APIs. The process is similar to how WINE/CrossOver (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/06/20060630170338.shtml) works allowing users to run Windows applications under Mac OS X without emulation.

These games, of course, would not run on PowerPC Macs, and could have consequences with Mac-focused developer companies which have provided porting services in the past.

-Sounds good but is there a performance hit using this?

-I dont think it would kill native development, but could spell the end of porting houses.

tveric
Aug 4, 2006, 02:11 AM
Well, guess what, folks. This article sounds like a dream come true for Mac gamers, right? Turns out the Linux gaming crowd has been dealing with the company putting this out, Transgaming, for a while. They have a similar software portability engine for Linux called Cedega. Here's a fairly represenative comment on THAT engine:

Cedega is the most unstable, buggy, and alltogether awful gaming product on Linux. It has done more to hold back Linux gaming than anything I can imagine. Why should a developer waste any resources when "Cedega allows you to run Windows games in Linux!" Newsflash: The games don't ********** WORK.

Transgaming brags about all these great results on their website but the sheer number of workarounds and hacks to get a game to play are unbearable. And what's worse is that the games, once installed, randomly crash, screw up graphics, display incorrect fonts, lose mouse control, can't position correctly on the screen, takes an inordinate amount of Microsoft software to even function... BLAH.

If Cider is anything like Cedega, I wouldn't hold my breath for the "end of an era" as one poster put it.

For a more detailed discussion of this topic that goes beyond the typical MacRumors post of "uhhh.... this good!" see:

http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/03/2051230&from=rss

MacsRgr8
Aug 4, 2006, 05:29 AM
Cider is not about being able to run Windows games on your Intel Mac running OS X, but it's a commercial product for "(ex-)porting houses", or the original developers, to "translate" Windows games to an Intel based Mac very easily.
So, Aspyr could bring out F.E.A.R. for Intel based Macs very fast, and probably very cheap.

I just wonder how well a DirectX game will be transformed to OpenGL.
What about surround sound?

Still, it seems good news to me.

This could be a scenario:

Call of Duty 3 released for Windows PC
- You could use Boot Camp to play it right away.

Call of Duty 3 released for Intel based Mac.
- Probably the same week, or either very shortly afterwards.

Call of Duty 3 Universal released (or just PPC??)
- Nice. Now my Quad can be used in playing this. But it would have taken about 4 months....

Parallels with DirectX support released.
- Great! Hardware 3D grfx and sound support in Parallels. No need to reboot using Boot Camp. Still needs more RAM and CPU power as both operating systems are running simultaneously....
But can use the original Windows version of COD 3.

I wonder if the consumers will be able to figure out which COD 3 copy they should buy.... Windows version? "Cidered" version? Wait for PPC release? Can you run it using Parallels?

:D

balamw
Aug 4, 2006, 08:13 AM
They have a similar software portability engine for Linux called Cedega.
There's a big difference. Cedega is aimed at the end user and allows them to play games that were released as Windows only on Linux. While Cider is aimed at developers and not the end users at all.

B

eMagius
Aug 4, 2006, 09:57 AM
If Cider is anything like Cedega, I wouldn't hold my breath for the "end of an era" as one poster put it.


Cider is like the Winelib SDK (but with Cedega's DirectX support).

SPUY767
Aug 4, 2006, 10:37 AM
Awesome. Now if only games didn't run slower under OS X in the first place.

Oddly enough, games run slower under OSX because of OSX's better handling of multitasking. In Windows, a task can easily take complete control of the processor, and in doing so, will make the task run at its fastest. A consequence of that is, however, that the OS is prevented from performing many necessary tasks in a timely manner. This can cause the OS to crash. With OSX, an app simply can't take over the processor completely.
Another reason is the fact that game developers hacen't written proper multiprocessor optomized games yet, when that happens, games will get better.

ATG
Aug 4, 2006, 10:38 AM
They used my name!!! I was going to use cider for a Mac version of Wine. I was going to make it open-source too.

Never got round to making it though (the reason might have something to do with the fact that I don't own an intel mac :p).

SPUY767
Aug 4, 2006, 10:38 AM
dear god people... if i had a $1.00 for everytime someone said this here at MR i would retire this year... :rolleyes:


Best avatar ever.

Stridder44
Aug 4, 2006, 12:52 PM
Oddly enough, games run slower under OSX because of OSX's better handling of multitasking. In Windows, a task can easily take complete control of the processor, and in doing so, will make the task run at its fastest. A consequence of that is, however, that the OS is prevented from performing many necessary tasks in a timely manner. This can cause the OS to crash. With OSX, an app simply can't take over the processor completely.
Another reason is the fact that game developers hacen't written proper multiprocessor optomized games yet, when that happens, games will get better.


Huh, I see. Well as awesome as multitasking is (and it is), there should be some sort of option to optimize system performance for the specific app (in this case, game) running. Maybe 10.5 will see some improvment in this area.

amols
Aug 5, 2006, 12:20 AM
Huh, I see. Well as awesome as multitasking is (and it is), there should be some sort of option to optimize system performance for the specific app (in this case, game) running. Maybe 10.5 will see some improvment in this area.

"renice" in Terminal.

dekator
Aug 5, 2006, 03:03 AM
Alcohol is not the solution to a problem :p

Do you have a problem with alcohol ? No, only without alcohol :D

sharpie05
Aug 5, 2006, 11:16 AM
well how hard could it be to port to mac? its the same architecture... i dont see what the problem is, unless theres something im missing.

thegreatluke
Aug 5, 2006, 03:38 PM
well how hard could it be to port to mac? its the same architecture... i dont see what the problem is, unless theres something im missing.
Differences (or in this case similarities) in architecture are almost nothing in relation to differences in the operating system and underlying kernels.

dsnort
Aug 6, 2006, 06:33 PM
If they can do this for games, i wonder if they can do it for other apps?

andy89
Aug 7, 2006, 09:55 AM
couln't this be used with qemu to run pc games on ppc computers?

balamw
Aug 7, 2006, 10:15 AM
If they can do this for games, i wonder if they can do it for other apps?
Sure they can, but that's not their focus.

The focus of the Transgaming guys is to implement the Win 32 API's necessary for games. The people who focus on the rest of the Win32 API, with a particular emphasis on Office type apps are http://www.codeweavers.com whose Crossover Office for OS X is in beta testing.

couln't this be used with qemu to run pc games on ppc computers?
As soon as you add qemu to the mix, it'll be far too slow to play anything.

B

Nermal
Aug 12, 2006, 11:26 PM
I have heard those stories. We're doing something about it.

Ask again after WWDC.

Asking again :)

rbarris
Aug 13, 2006, 12:46 PM
Asking again :)

Fair enough. Well, there is good news and bad news. The good news is that Apple had a lot of good news about OpenGL performance at WWDC. The bad news is that - since it wasn't covered in the initial public keynote - it's still under NDA.

Nermal
Aug 14, 2006, 07:32 PM
Fair enough. Well, there is good news and bad news. The good news is that Apple had a lot of good news about OpenGL performance at WWDC. The bad news is that - since it wasn't covered in the initial public keynote - it's still under NDA.

I hate to pry, especially if there's an NDA involved, but hopefully you're allowed to give a "yes or no" answer to this question: Is it multi-threaded OpenGL?