Mac Pro Announced

[aswitcher]

Greedy sod you already have a MacBook Pro.

:D

Yeah, sold my 17"PB and with that money and salary packaging got my MBP for about $300. Definetly worth the upgrade ;)

But my other money comes from an insurance claim since we were recently robbed :( So my second Mac will be a mixed blessing.

[Multimedia]

It is pennywise - pound foolish to buy a disk smaller than the biggest possible.

The most expensive thing on a typical computer is the disk slot - you only get a few (or one) of them. Fill the slots with small disks, and you'll soon run out of space.

You'll soon regret wasting the 90 GB or so that you saved 60 dollars on.

The "cost per GB" of a disk is nothing compared to the "cost per disk slot".Except for the fact that you can buy a 300GB SATA/300 HD for $80 almost any weekend at Fry's. Money saved downgrading to the 160 is like getting it for free. You can set it aside unused for when you sell it.But when you run out of HD slots, you can always just dump the small HD you had originally. I'd totally recommend getting the smallest available boot drive and adding a big third party drive with the money you save, unless you plan on filling all four slots reasonably quickly.

[glassbathroom]

Has anyone had a Mac Pro with Airport installed shipped yet? I am hoping that they are not far away. The 2 weeks of my 2-4 weeks is up on Tuesday.

[Roy]

Should Mac Pro Rev. B be expected to come out in January 2007? Or since the switch to Intel, is there any expectation that Rev. B. will actually be sooner?

[Trekkie]

Should Mac Pro Rev. B be expected to come out in January 2007? Or since the switch to Intel, is there any expectation that Rev. B. will actually be sooner?

I'd expect a Rev A.5 in November when Clovertown comes out. Mainly a speed/core bump. I doubt they'd release a new system right now and then refresh it with new stuff beyond the proc in two months.

I'd guess Rev B would be WWDC or so next year.

[Multimedia]

I'd expect a Rev A.5 in November when Clovertown comes out. Mainly a speed/core bump. I doubt they'd release a new system right now and then refresh it with new stuff beyond the proc in two months.

I'd guess Rev B would be WWDC or so next year.From what I've gathered here, Clovertown may need a different motherboard (it runs a different speed FSB and RAM) and a different cooling system (it's hotter). I'm not for sure. Perhaps this motherboard can adapt to those differences in the processor and ram. And perhaps the cooling system is overbuilt in anticipation of Clovertown's needs for a little more cooling. Since Clovertown is probably not going to arrive in quantity until almost the end of the year, I think, we may not see the OctoCore before MacWorld Expo January 9.

I hope I'm wrong though. Sooner before Christmas would be awesome! :)

[Trekkie]

I hope I'm wrong though. Sooner before Christmas would be awesome! :)

I don't have my work computer with me to check what I'm allowed to say yet per my NDA, but I think I can say be prepared for a Happy thanksgiving, at least from Intel's perspective. Apple needs to release it though so not sure what their schedule is.

[Multimedia]

I don't have my work computer with me to check what I'm allowed to say yet per my NDA, but I think I can say be prepared for a Happy thanksgiving, at least from Intel's perspective. Apple needs to release it though so not sure what their schedule is.November Clovertown Deliveries May Be Enough To Get It On The BTO Page Sooner Than Later. I take it you know they will ship in November. Question is in what quantity? But I suppose it wouldn't take many delivered to Apple for them to start offering it. I read a report recently that says the Woodcrest motherboards are all built to Clovertown Thermal spec. So it may indeed simply be a processor option Apple can tack onto the current BTO page. Wonder about the differetn RAM speed Clovertown uses though. Perhaps it will get it's own BTO Page. Since demand may not be fierce for Clovertown to begin with due to much higher cost, a small supply in Apple's manufacturing plants may be enough for them to add it early on. Here's hoping anyway. Thanks for the leak. :) I'm sure your credibility is impeccable. :p

[THX1139]

November Clovertown Deliveries May Be Enough To Get It On The BTO Page Sooner Than Later. I take it you know they will ship in November. Question is in what quantity? But I suppose it wouldn't take many delivered to Apple for them to start offering it. I read a report recently that says the Woodcrest motherboards are all built to Clovertown Thermal spec. So it may indeed simply be a processor option Apple can tack onto the current BTO page. Wonder about the differetn RAM speed Clovertown uses though. Perhaps it will get it's own BTO Page. Since demand may not be fierce for Clovertown to begin with due to much higher cost, a small supply in Apple's manufacturing plants may be enough for them to add it early on. Here's hoping anyway. Thanks for the leak. :) I'm sure your credibility is impeccable. :p

Just because Intel is shipping doesn't mean Apple is going to use them right away. Merom would be an example of a faster/better chip that is currently being ignored by Apple even though it's been shipping for over a month. Based on how long it took Apple to get a Woodcrest box out and it's slow adaptation to Merom, I don't think we will see any major chip changes until MWSF '07. I think Apple will want to choose if and when and not get too influenced by what Intel does. They are arrogant enough to ignore what's going on in the PC world. It costs a lot of overhead to be caught up in the chip race. I believe that Apple will put it's emphasis on products and services over how fast they can make their computers go.

[Trekkie]

Just because Intel is shipping doesn't mean Apple is going to use them right away. Merom would be an example of a faster/better chip that is currently being ignored by Apple even though it's been shipping for over a month. Based on how long it took Apple to get a Woodcrest box out and it's slow adaptation to Merom, I don't think we will see any major chip changes until MWSF '07.

How long? They announced the Mac Pro, what, 8/6 right? (sorry don't have calendar handy). Intel Launched Woodcrest 6/28...you might be confusing Dempsey and Woodcrest because Dempsey did launch in May. A few months I would constitute as 'long' but when you're refreshing a product line from one architecture to another and SHIPPING it the day you announce 8/6 isn't 'long'

You could have been like the other guy, announce a system 06/28 but they didn't ship em until recently. Read the fine print of the announces, all of them say 'available within 45 days' where as Apple was able to say Available now, except mine which needs a wireless card and that apparently is a few weeks from now.

[Multimedia]

Just because Intel is shipping doesn't mean Apple is going to use them right away. Merom would be an example of a faster/better chip that is currently being ignored by Apple even though it's been shipping for over a month. Based on how long it took Apple to get a Woodcrest box out and it's slow adaptation to Merom, I don't think we will see any major chip changes until MWSF '07. I think Apple will want to choose if and when and not get too influenced by what Intel does. They are arrogant enough to ignore what's going on in the PC world. It costs a lot of overhead to be caught up in the chip race. I believe that Apple will put it's emphasis on products and services over how fast they can make their computers go.Say what? :confused: Merom is only just now begining to be manufactured and will ship in a large quantity to Apple first half of September. No way is Apple going to sit on Core 2 Duo for the entire line 'til January. NO WAY.How long? They announced the Mac Pro, what, 8/6 right? (sorry don't have calendar handy). Intel Launched Woodcrest 6/28...you might be confusing Dempsey and Woodcrest because Dempsey did launch in May. A few months I would constitute as 'long' but when you're refreshing a product line from one architecture to another and SHIPPING it the day you announce 8/6 isn't 'long'

You could have been like the other guy, announce a system 06/28 but they didn't ship em until recently. Read the fine print of the announces, all of them say 'available within 45 days' where as Apple was able to say Available now, except mine which needs a wireless card and that apparently is a few weeks from now.Absolutely. Apple is very aggresively shipping Core 2 Duo Woodcrests as soon as it was practical to make them available to the masses.

[Roy]

I've never had more than one internal hard drive in a computer, but I've had several external hard drives. With an external hard drive, I would turn it off until I wanted to store some data, but with multiple internal hard drives is there someway to turn off the other hard drives and just have only the main hard drive spinning.

[rimbaud@mac.com]

The Mac LightSpeed is like a big iPod:
Has no moving parts.
Is light-rechargeable (solar).
Has 2GB of RAM.
Has 40GB of Flash Memory (removable and upgradeable).
Comes with a bluetooth remote that is also a VOIP phone.
Comes with a sling that lets you carry it anywhere like a purse.
Connects to WiFi or EV-DO.
Has an 11" widescreen.
Dock includes a Blue-Ray sync drive, DVI port for widescreen HD output to a monitor.

[THX1139]

Say what? :confused: Merom is only just now begining to be manufactured and will ship in a large quantity to Apple first half of September. No way is Apple going to sit on Core 2 Duo for the entire line 'til January. NO WAY.Absolutely. Apple is very aggresively shipping Core 2 Duo Woodcrests as soon as it was practical to make them available to the masses.

Oops...sorry. I was thinking of Conroe. Duh! :rolleyes:

[THX1139]

I've never had more than one internal hard drive in a computer, but I've had several external hard drives. With an external hard drive, I would turn it off until I wanted to store some data, but with multiple internal hard drives is there someway to turn off the other hard drives and just have only the main hard drive spinning.

Just put in sleep mode and they will spin down. Modern drives don't need to be turned off. Least I can't think of any reason they would need to be.

[Chuck]

Has anyone had a Mac Pro with Airport installed shipped yet? I am hoping that they are not far away. The 2 weeks of my 2-4 weeks is up on Tuesday.
Hi Glassbathroom,

I don't know, but I'd like to! I also ordered airport, but my order was only a week ago so there's still a bit of a wait for me.

Hope you get yours soon.

Chuck.

[relimw]

Has anyone had a Mac Pro with Airport installed shipped yet? I am hoping that they are not far away. The 2 weeks of my 2-4 weeks is up on Tuesday.
My 3 weeks were up yesterday, and it hasn't shipped yet.

[glassbathroom]

My 3 weeks were up yesterday, and it hasn't shipped yet.

It can't be 3 weeks. They only went on sale on the 8th. 2 maybe :)

[Roy]

Just put in sleep mode and they will spin down. Modern drives don't need to be turned off. Least I can't think of any reason they would need to be.

But can you put an additional internal hard drive (HD 2) in a sleep mode while keeping the hard drive with the system on it (HD 1) still working? :confused:

[Trekkie]

But can you put an additional internal hard drive (HD 2) in a sleep mode while keeping the hard drive with the system on it (HD 1) still working? :confused:


1-800-APPLESTORE or your countries equivalent, and ask them.

[Spaceman Spiff]

It can't be 3 weeks. They only went on sale on the 8th. 2 maybe :)

'course he can. He obviously has the ability to manipulate time and space in order to get Apple products before everyone else.

MY 3 weeks is up on Monday. This wait has thus far been thoroughly unhealthy for me.

[Chuck]

Argh, what a tease...

My Applecare arrived on it's own on Wednesday and then the 23" ACD arrived yesterday... Now they are just sitting there saying "Ha-ha" (insert Nelson voice).

Chuck.

[THX1139]

Argh, what a tease...

My Applecare arrived on it's own on Wednesday and then the 23" ACD arrived yesterday... Now they are just sitting there saying "Ha-ha" (insert Nelson voice).

Chuck.

I hope Apple gets it's "bleep" together on these BTO Macpros! At first I thought the long delays were due to the machines being so new and they needed to ramp up production. Now I have a suspicion that long delay on BTO will be the norm. 3 to 5 weeks just to add or replace generic components is ridiculous! I was hoping that as time went by, the shipping times would get shorter. They will lose sales in the long run if they can't deliver these machines within a 10 day period. If a Mac based studio lands a big contract that requires extra machines, they probably aren't going to have the luxury to wait up to 5 weeks to get the boxes required to do the job. 3 to 4 weeks is an eternity when it comes to computers!

[relimw]

It can't be 3 weeks. They only went on sale on the 8th. 2 maybe :)
For some reason I seem to have been time warping again.... :eek:
Or maybe it was a rounding error/wishful thinking :)

[glassbathroom]

Mac Pro Ram now showing up on Crucial UK and US, but only in 512MB modules and they are not in stock when you hit order. I guess they are coming soon.

[Night Phoenix]

The Mac Pro looks great, there are several people in the research lab I work in that want one. If only I had the extra grant money to buy myself a sweet setup like this!

[zwida]

I hope Apple gets it's "bleep" together on these BTO Macpros! At first I thought the long delays were due to the machines being so new and they needed to ramp up production. Now I have a suspicion that long delay on BTO will be the norm. 3 to 5 weeks just to add or replace generic components is ridiculous! I was hoping that as time went by, the shipping times would get shorter. They will lose sales in the long run if they can't deliver these machines within a 10 day period. If a Mac based studio lands a big contract that requires extra machines, they probably aren't going to have the luxury to wait up to 5 weeks to get the boxes required to do the job. 3 to 4 weeks is an eternity when it comes to computers!

Isn't the delay primarily for machines that have the "new" wireless cards?

[relimw]

Isn't the delay primarily for machines that have the "new" wireless cards?
Apparently the delay seems to be on the ATI x1900 video cards.

[Trekkie]

Apparently the delay seems to be on the ATI x1900 video cards.

I have both the ATI x1900 and the BT+Wireless card.

Anyone get one yet with a Wireless card?

[Spaceman Spiff]

I have both the ATI x1900 and the BT+Wireless card.

Anyone get one yet with a Wireless card?


The Wireless and Bluetooth Mac Pros have been shipping recently if you look around. ATI still has not.

[jesteraver]

Are we ever going to see a MacPro with like upto 8 cores soon... like 4 x Intel Core Duo or what not?

[zwida]

Are we ever going to see a MacPro with like upto 8 cores soon... like 4 x Intel Core Duo or what not?

Next summer, I'd guess. Once there are quad-core chips, you'll have your eight core machine.

Of course, I ordered the current quad core anyway. I just couldn't wait that long.

[Trekkie]

Next summer, I'd guess. Once there are quad-core chips, you'll have your eight core machine.

Of course, I ordered the current quad core anyway. I just couldn't wait that long.


Intel is releasing their quad core processor system before the end of the year. Does this mean Apple will ship it? dunno, they may wait for MacWorld to announce it.

[jesteraver]

Intel is releasing their quad core processor system before the end of the year. Does this mean Apple will ship it? dunno, they may wait for MacWorld to announce it.

One thing would be nice to see a 4 x Intel Quadcore PowerMac, I for sure would have no use for it, but I have a feeling many people would need something that powerful. Would be interesting too see the amount of memory that would go with that sucker.

[Trekkie]

One thing would be nice to see a 4 x Intel Quadcore PowerMac, I for sure would have no use for it, but I have a feeling many people would need something that powerful. Would be interesting too see the amount of memory that would go with that sucker.


Speaking as someone who for a living helps determine the design for systems that use two or more processors inside them I'd like to comment on this from that perspective.

This is a botique system, beyond apple, beyond IBM, beyond HP, Beyond Dell.

The reason I say that is that once you cross from a two socket to a for socket system certain assumptions are made in the base chipsets.

First, there is one of them for Intel processors that is generally available. That is Intel's 'Caneland' Platform, or also known as Twincastle.

The first and primary challenge for that chipset is that it was not designed to do a 16x slot out of the chute. THis doesn't mean you couldn't do it, but if you check out Dell or HP's website and look at the 6850/DL580 G4 you'll notice the PCI-E slot layout should be identical. Several 8x's I believe it is.

IBM Makes a Xeon 7000 class chipset called EXA or Enterprise X-Architecture. It currently is PCI-X 2.0 only, with PCI-E on the horizion but 8x maximum per slot, and video is not supported.

So someone would need to get Intel's permission, and the chipset would have to be able to support 16x slots. I've not seen the low level details of twincastle in a while, but I don't believe it can even do this without a new I/O southbridge, or if the northbridge has enough bandwidth to do it.

The second problem is power consumption. Intel's new 7100 processor at the top two speeds consumes 150W of power maximum per socket, the two slower ones are 95W maximum. But just think, your average system would need about 1200W power supply, or twin 600W. If you're in the US that's reaching the very edge of what 110V can drive and maintain UL listing.

Then there's the cost. I believe the average list price for the 3.3GHz/2M/16MB L3 chip is $4899. Don't let the websites fool you when the announces and they say the price is $1850. That's the price to someone who buys 1000 at a time. Then you also have to factor in the heatsink, and the VRM. Those are not inexpensive to make (well that is, you could probably slap something together and have it fail a lot)

The final problem, and the most damning in my opinon, is the architecture itself.

The FSB for memory on the Mac Pro today and the Core Solo chips is 25% faster. Shortly, it will be 40% faster. Xeon 7100 has a 667MHz FSB and a 800MHz FSB. Woodcrest has a 1066MHz and clovertown should have 1333MHz. To put one of my favorite engineering comments I've heard at a conference when this was asked 'why' the answer was: Physics is a Bitch!

The more processors you have, the more wires you have, the harder it is to get it up in clock speed. Historically the quad processor socket systems have always been behind. When Two socket was 800MHz, Four socket was 400Mhz, when Four socket was 667MHz, Two socket was 1066MHz, when two socket was 400Mhz, Four socket was 133MHz.

This does not work well for 98% of the end user workloads. Hence my 'botique' comment. SGI and others have made these though in the past, and notice that they don't exist anymore. The market has really dried up.

Thinking forward into 2007 and 2008. If the 'core war' that is going on between AMD and Intel continues. It would be conceivable that we could have a system with two physical sockets on it, but 16 cores. Unless someone changes how we program now for threading it's gonna make the software guys cringe. Clock speed was like crack. It's gonna take a long time for the software guys to get off the crack in regular applications. Sure there is always a specialized application that does really well on humongo number of threads, but Photoshop, Microsoft Word, Mac OS X, Linux, many things don't know what to do after about eight to sixteen cores.

I feel that the comments about systems being out of date will continue because Intel and AMD are going to be fighting their way to the 'top' for the next few years like the did in the late 90s that drove us from 400MHz to GHz in record time.

[Multimedia]

I have both the ATI x1900 and the BT+Wireless card.

Anyone get one yet with a Wireless card?When did you receive it? Can you confirm it does or does not support Dell Monitor Rotation?

Sorry. I misunderstood your post thinking you had already received yours.

[tribulation]

Woohoo. My first post to the forums, just to spread my happiness when I woke up this morning. I got the shipping notification from Apple and a FedEx tracking #. I have all the goodies - the Radeon + airport/BT card.

My original shipping date was Sept 9, but I sure won't complain. Looks like a bunch of you should be receiving shipping notifications as well soon enough :)

If only it wasn't Sunday, and if only TOMORROW wasn't a darn holiday (Labor Day in the US at least)...I'd get it much sooner. Supposed to get here by the 6th, but I'm guessing the 5th. :p

[miniConvert]

I have all the goodies - the Radeon + airport/BT card.
Wow, congrats! I ordered the 8th Aug and my delivery date is still estimated at the 28th Sep (UK) which makes no sense.

[tribulation]

Wow, congrats! I ordered the 8th Aug and my delivery date is still estimated at the 28th Sep (UK) which makes no sense.

Thanks...I just couldn't keep the excitement inside LOL.
I ordered right after the keynote, so I bet your order will be getting updated soon (unless there's some delay with the UK for some reason, hopefully not). Since it's the weekend, maybe you'll just get the confirmation first thing Tues (or maybe even monday without the holiday in the UK - I have no idea how apple shipping works).

[Multimedia]

Woohoo. My first post to the forums, just to spread my happiness when I woke up this morning. I got the shipping notification from Apple and a FedEx tracking #. I have all the goodies - the Radeon + airport/BT card.

My original shipping date was Sept 9, but I sure won't complain. Looks like a bunch of you should be receiving shipping notifications as well soon enough :)

If only it wasn't Sunday, and if only TOMORROW wasn't a darn holiday (Labor Day in the US at least)...I'd get it much sooner. Supposed to get here by the 6th, but I'm guessing the 5th. :pAny chance you have a Dell rotatable monitor?

[relimw]

Ok, I'm really getting tired of waiting for my new system to arrive. If it wasn't for the fact that some people have reported that the x1900 has begun shipping, I would seriously consider reordering without the board. It took at least 15 mins to crank up and import 25 pics into lightroom on my mini this morning. Not to mention the amount of time it takes to get anything done once it's in lightroom and friends.

[cromeyellow]

We (my business partner and I) have two coming with the top of the line video card, 4 drives and 16Gb of memory. We confirmed the order Friday and were told they will be shipping later this week, believe it or not. But then, my company's order is almost $100K including other equipment so maybe Apple is giving us some extra hustle.

Two 3GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon
16GB (8 x 2GB)
500GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
500GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
500GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
500GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
NVIDIA Quadro FX 4500 512MB, Stereo 3D (2 x dual-link DVI)
2 x SuperDrives
Both Bluetooth 2.0+EDR and AirPort Extreme
Apple USB Modem
Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse - U.S. English
Mac OS X - U.S. English
AppleCare Protection Plan for Mac Pro/Power Mac (w/or w/o Display)

[Trekkie]

Did you buy the modem for decoration on that monster or you really use it?

[cromeyellow]

Did you buy the modem for decoration on that monster or you really use it?

FAXing.

[tribulation]

If it weren't for the long weekend, I bet most of the earlier orderers would have their tracking # by now. Mine's in the FedEx system (w/radeon card), but it doesn't look like it's actually left the dock, or wherever it's coming from. Just says the shipping information has been received, so I'm hoping that it'll get out tomorrow, and arrive by Wed. at the latest.

BTW: My credit card was charged, but they didn't add on the extra shipping charge for 2day. Nice! Hopefully it won't be added separately, I don't think I've had that happen before; but it looks like they gave me a break for 2day, and I didn't even call or anything. Not bad at all.

[cromeyellow]

Once Apple charges the credit card, it ships quite quickly, so you are in good shape.

Our order is via P.O. (purchase order) since we have a line of credit with Apple. Included in that $100K order are four 30" screens, two for each new MacPro. I don't think I've been this excited about a new computer since...my first one.

[THX1139]

We (my business partner and I) have two coming with the top of the line video card, 4 drives and 16Gb of memory.

That's crazy to buy all of those add-on's directly from Apple! Must be nice to blow the company money when you could have saved hundreds if not thousands by purchasing ram and hard drives elsewhere. I know, it's a tax write off.. but jeez, that is nuts to throw that money away when you could invest it elsewhere. Smart business move for Apple though! I bet they make a ton of money by offering add-ons at such a high markup because people are willing to pay for them without thinking about the inflated cost.

Good luck with your new systems. :)

[Trekkie]

That's crazy to buy all of those add-on's directly from Apple! Must be nice to blow the company money when you could have saved hundreds if not thousands by purchasing ram and hard drives elsewhere.

For an end user, that statement is true. For a professional, that's a bunch of crap.

If you 'saved money' and bought a hard drive from newegg. When it breaks, you mail it off to Seagate, wait a few weeks, and it comes back.

You buy it from Apple, you have Apple care. They ship you one that day, it arrives the next morning, then you send the broken one back. Or you run down with the unit to the nearest Apple Store and they have it in stock and swap it for you, because you paid $99 for ProCare.

Same goes for memory, and the other options you could 'save money on'

9 times out of 10 the 'save money on' options would cost you thousands, or possibly tens of thousands in lost business because the machine is a boat anchor until something is fixed.

You spend a fraction more, and you have peace of mind, and when something breaks, you don't get A) Fired or B) Loose lots of money out of your business

[Multimedia]

Fry's Has Seagate 16MB Buffered 400GB SATA & PATA HDs For $100 Today. I bought 4. I love holidays at Fry's. Next up Black Friday. :p

[THX1139]

For an end user, that statement is true. For a professional, that's a bunch of crap.

If you 'saved money' and bought a hard drive from newegg. When it breaks, you mail it off to Seagate, wait a few weeks, and it comes back.

You buy it from Apple, you have Apple care. They ship you one that day, it arrives the next morning, then you send the broken one back. Or you run down with the unit to the nearest Apple Store and they have it in stock and swap it for you, because you paid $99 for ProCare.

Same goes for memory, and the other options you could 'save money on'

9 times out of 10 the 'save money on' options would cost you thousands, or possibly tens of thousands in lost business because the machine is a boat anchor until something is fixed.

You spend a fraction more, and you have peace of mind, and when something breaks, you don't get A) Fired or B) Loose lots of money out of your business

Nice try... you almost had me convinced. Try justifying all that to my associates who run their studios on slim margins. Every dollar saved can be applied to more important things than paying premium for Apple branded products. The money you save through buying quality 3rd party products can be applied to backup systems. Go and price out those 8 500 gig drives that they bought from Apple and then see how much money they would have saved buying better and faster drives from Newegg or other vendor. Off the top of my head, I'm guessing they could buy another terabyte of storage and still come out ahead. How's that for backup!?!? If you have an extra terabyte of storage, you don't need to worry about running down to the Apple store to pickup a replacement drive, or waiting for Seagate. Though, last I checked, Newegg has a decent return policy too! And gee while I'm thinking about it, they could have bought faster drives with 16MB of cache instead of the 8MB versions Apple is offering. Choice is always good.

Ram? I've been running Macs with quality 3rd party ram for 12 years and have NEVER had ram failure. If I did, I'd just send it in and have it replaced, same as with Applecare. Decent ram outlets have lifetime warranties and quick replacement. Though, I can't be sure because I've never had to replace ram!

Applecare serves is purpose, but it's needed if your worried about Apple only equipment failure. However, if you are running a business and worrying about failure, then you need to evaluate your backup systems or take out a rider on your business insurance. You do have business insurance don't you?? If your business comes to a sudden halt because you have a drive failure... or your ram suddenly stops working, then you need to re-evaluate your business plan. Having paid too much for your gear so that you have peace of mind and perceived guarantee for quick replacement is a bunch of crap. If you're so concerned about downtime due to component failure, just buy a backup system since you don't mind spending money... or ahem, throwing money down the toilet.

peace

[Trekkie]

Nice try... you almost had me convinced.

I was obviously not trying to convince you, because clearly you have a different model to work off of that can accomodate a $5000 computer being broken for a day or two while you try and get parts.

Try justifying all that to my associates who run their studios on slim margins.

I don't need to justify, the first time a system is unusable and the part replacement time is 7 - 10 days if you're lucky not including shipping and they'll only ship it back to you parcel post from across the continent not matter how much money you wave in their face and you miss an all important deadline and it costs you a job, and reputation, then it matters.


The money you save through buying quality 3rd party products can be applied to backup systems.

Backup systems do you a heck of a lot of good when the system is unusable until the replacement part arrives. I've mailed off many hard drives that I bought dirt cheap. I love em. But then again I could wait a month before the replacement came.

Though, last I checked, Newegg has a decent return policy too!

Return policy, sure, but when a part breaks it is between you and the manufacturer. I'm not bashing newegg in the slightest, I've bought thousands of dollars of gear from them over the last five or so years.

Ram? I've been running Macs with quality 3rd party ram for 12 years and have NEVER had ram failure.

Me too, I usually figure out what's the most I can get from the vendor that's reasonable, and if I want more then I'll buy it from someone else. Crucial is my current favorite for the last five years an my iMac is running 2 of their 1GB sticks with never a hiccup. But then I don't make money with my desktop so I don't sweat it.

Having paid too much for your gear so that you have peace of mind and perceived guarantee for quick replacement is a bunch of crap.

I'm giving you ideas that I've learned from many businesses and how they provide uptime for their stuff. I've seen them buy duplicate systems down to the paint so that they could swap any part out instantly and warranty them back. I've also seen vendors get upset because they use the one systems serial number instead of the 50 that they had so it looked like the one computer broke 40 times in a year... heh that was kinda funny.

I was an Apple repair tech from '94 to '98. Third Party Memory and them didn't get along back then in a corporate environment. You call in with weird issues and they start troubleshooting and collecting info out of the machine they'll hit that 3rd party memory and no matter what the problem is they'll tell you to rip it out and call em back if it still is an issue. It's a PITA if you're support 700 - 800 clients.

There are tolerances that people will deal with at any level, clearly your worry is the upfront cost and you feel you have an adequate system for when something goes wrong. But not everyone feels your system is the way to go, I've seen quite the opposite more times than not. I'll run into the 'I do it my way' kind of person and I've also had them run back to me after they did it their way and something went wrong and someone almost lost their job.

I'm not saying that way works for everyone either, just being on the service end of the industry since '89 I've seen everything go wrong and could easily think up of a scenario I've experienced where no matter what you did up front to save a few $ if you'd done it slightly different the vendor would bend heaven and earth to help.

[THX1139]

I was obviously not trying to convince you, because clearly you have a different model to work off of that can accomodate a $5000 computer being broken for a day or two while you try and get parts.

Parts?? How hard is it get another drive if one dies? You're paying premium so that Apple will replace right away? Do you live in the Outback? If I have a drive failure, I just go to Frys or Compusa and buy a new one or order online if I'm not in the middle of a project. The point I was making is that they are paying a hell of a lot of money for the convenience of Apple sending them another one if it fails.

I haven't done the math, but I believe the cost of all those Apple drives and all that Apple ram could "almost" buy another Woodcrest, or a used G5 Quad. It could certainly buy bunch of hard drives! Or how about just leaving the money in the bank for an emergency?

The base Woodcrest is not $5000 unless you load it up with Apple amenities. My point was that if you are so concerned about failure or even one second of downtime, you buy a backup computer. Are you saying that it makes more sense to purchase premium products from Apple, over having a backup system, or backup drives? The OP spends thousands of dollars on top-of-the-line when they could have spread their money out and invested in a better backup system. If a drive fails in your scenario, they have to call Apple or go to the Apple store to get a replacement drive and then transfer all of the files (if they were backed up). In my scenario, they already have the backup drive in the studio that contains all of the backup files. When the project is done or during downtime, they send in the defective drive and that one becomes their backup when it gets back. Or just throw the damn thing away. LOL!! I would rather have a backup drive ready to roll than the ability to call Apple for a replacement drive!!

Ram failure after 30 days is so rare that it's not an issue.

Anyway, I'll agree that we are arguing apples and oranges. Each business model has it's own concerns and we could argue forever and say the same things. A two man studio is going to have different requirements than a studio like Pixar or advertising agency like Satchi & Satchi.

I don't agree with everything you wrote and you obviously don't agree with me either. So, let agree to disagree. ;)

[cromeyellow]

I've always bought the top of the line when it came in and I could afford it. Spent about $10K on the finest 9500/132 system around 1994-5, and about the same on a PowerMac G4 in 2003. I missed the G4 towers entirely.

It's interesting how through the personal computer revolution about $10,000. has been the amount you need to spend to get the finest. From what I understand the old S-100 4Mhz based hexadecimal and DOS systems that came out in the late 70s also cost $10K if outfitted with all the bells and whistles.

Sure, a barebones system today will cost under a grand, but from what I read so did a crappy TRS-80 from Radio Shack at the same time that $10K could get you a color graphics system (in 1980).

Back to the point of all this....

On the Power Mac 9500, I went ahead and got the aftermarket memory and drives. The seller was one of those who discounted and put in aftermarket drives period - there are plenty of such dealers left around today as well. In other words, the system came with no Apple installed drives whatsoever - all OEM.

Well, THAT system did not work from the getgo. Just my luck, a drive failed on day one. Luckily Apple covered it as a courtesy under warranty (or maybe their tech never figured out the drives were not Apple), but within a couple of years one of the drives failed again. When a drive fails the issue is not just down time, but potential loss of data!

Now, I am not saying that the aftermarket drives are cheapos and the Apple ones are the finest, because in some cases they might even APPEAR to be identical, but my experience has been that the Apple original drives last, and the aftermarket ones fail.

Maybe this is because Apple tests the drives again after they get them (in the final operating computers) so they go through two levels of tests, while the aftermarket companies test them once only. Anyway, who knows. My experience has been that the Apple drives last, the others do not. For this reason alone, I will never purchase non-Apple drives in an Apple system again.

Then - memory. On my 9500 I had no Apple memory installed. Again, not my choice. The dealer did it that way. Many dealers still do it that way but do not bother to tell you this (of course). On the G4, the original standard memory was Apple, rest was not.

And on the G4 some of the memory failed. Apple refused to service, because obviously it was a non-Apple part. So, there I was left with a broken machine, and down time, because I tried to save some money.

So, finally, this third time around I decided and was determined to go Apple all the way. Besides, that type of memory for the MacPro is not even available anywhere else (yet).

It comes down to a penny wise, pound foolish philosophy that I bought into before, but no longer. Sometimes, if you purchase from a place like MacMall, you have no choice when it comes to certain items such as extra memory - they won't even install the Apple memory for upgrades unless it is the only form available (such as is the case for the MacPro at present) - but in the end you will be holding the bag if the system fails.

Unless you are a technician you will be unable to differentiate whether the failed part is Apple or non-Apple, and only after it goes in and you are drumming your fingers with down time, will you get the final answer. And depending on the answer the system might be coming back to you from Apple, for you to lug over to some other place to repair.

And don't think that Apple does not discount - they discounted each of our towers about $1500. from full retail.

A good analogy is software. If you know what you are doing you can pirate about anything. But, when your copy of MSFT Office freezes because it detects a non registered copy in the middle of a school lecture or business presentation, or you are unable to upgrade your software and need to reinstall, find serial numbers and start all over just to get your work done, you will understand and weigh the benefits.

Bottom line: if your tool (whether it be software or hardware) makes you money, then you will not jeopardize its use by cutting corners. Why mess with your livelihood?

[Silentwave]

Interesting, cryellow, thank you for sharing.

I'd go all apple if their stuff fulfilled my needs, but unless they expand their HD selection big time I will have to load up on aftermarkets :o

[chatin]

I've always bought the top of the line when it came in and I could afford it. Spent about $10K on the finest 9500/132 system around 1994-5, and about the same on a PowerMac G4 in 2003. I missed the G4 towers entirely.


Ouch! Sounds like you were around during the Dark Times for Apple. The time of the Twenty Fifth Anniversary Edition Mac, with the white gloves and limo.

The new Apple mantra is VALUE! Compete with Dell. No more anniversary, unless we're talking about the PC twenty fifth anniversary which all Apple power users celebrated with a MAC PRO!!!

:D :D

[cromeyellow]

Well, that's something else entirely. 500gb x 4 is more drive than I have ever had! I never thought I would even fill my G4 tower which has two 120Gbs, but then the day came when I wanted to install Final Cut Pro 5.0


By the way, I meant that I missed the G5 towers entirely. I never owned any G5. Looks like I never will. On to Intel!

[cromeyellow]

Ouch! Sounds like you were around during the Dark Times for Apple. The time of the Twenty Fifth Anniversary Edition Mac, with the white gloves and limo.

The new Apple mantra is VALUE! Compete with Dell. No more anniversary, unless we're talking about the PC twenty fifth anniversary which all Apple power users celebrated with a MAC PRO!!!

:D :D

Untrue. Throughout history, whether we're talking Apple or PC if you want a top end laptop it's always about $3500., and about $10K for the fully loaded tower with maximum memory, drives and the best video card. Prices have not changed - just technology.

Prices have dropped only to the extent of inflation. Ya' falla'?

[dongmin]

Bottom line: if your tool (whether it be software or hardware) makes you money, then you will not jeopardize its use by cutting corners. Why mess with your livelihood?Hard drives are hard drives. Buying directly from Apple has nothing to do with it. Hard drives fail sooner or later; that's why you should make backups and that's why Apple is introducing Time Machine.

There's really no reason to buy HDs directly from Apple, especially now that they've made installing them such a snap. Just have someone moderately hardware-savvy to install it for you, if you're nervous about that kind of thing.

[cromeyellow]

Also maybe the HD companies send the tested and true ones to the manufacturers and put the barely passed or tested lightly ones on the shelves.

Don't think it's true? Family members owned a modem manufacturing company (huge public co.) and they used to do exactly that all the time with their modems.

[Silentwave]

Untrue. Throughout history, whether we're talking Apple or PC if you want a top end laptop it's always about $3500., and about $10K for the fully loaded tower with maximum memory, drives and the best video card. Prices have not changed - just technology.

Prices have dropped only to the extent of inflation. Ya' falla'?

But doesn't that mean that courtesy of inlation, we get more for our dollar?

If a fully loaded mac pro is $10k, as was a fully loaded 9500 (1995-1997) those $10,000 from then would be about $13000 today.

[cromeyellow]

But doesn't that mean that courtesy of inlation, we get more for our dollar?

If a fully loaded mac pro is $10k, as was a fully loaded 9500 (1995-1997) those $10,000 from then would be about $13000 today.

That's exactly what I said! Ya' falla'?

[Roy]

Two independent 10/100/1000BASE-T Ethernet (RJ-45) interfaces

I can understand one of these, but I haven't been able to figure out exactly what are some of the uses for the 2nd one. I'm sure there is a good reason for 2 of them, but as a home user of a G4 tower, I can't figure out what I would do with with the 2nd one. Anyone want to increase my knowledge base?:)

[aswitcher]

Two independent 10/100/1000BASE-T Ethernet (RJ-45) interfaces

I can understand one of these, but I haven't been able to figure out exactly what are some of the uses for the 2nd one. I'm sure there is a good reason for 2 of them, but as a home user of a G4 tower, I can't figure out what I would do with with the 2nd one. Anyone want to increase my knowledge base?:)

One connects to your modem/router, the other connects to either:

Internal wired network or second Mac or Network storage device, where you want high speed transfers (1000mbps not 54mbps).

[THX1139]

...Now, I am not saying that the aftermarket drives are cheapos and the Apple ones are the finest, because in some cases they might even APPEAR to be identical, but my experience has been that the Apple original drives last, and the aftermarket ones fail. ...

The last word eh?

Well, okay... whatever floats your boat. Just be aware that the drives don't come from Apple. A Seagate is a Seagate. A WD is a WD... doesn't matter who you buy it from. Apple buys the same OEM drives as you can get from Newegg etc. Only they actually pay less and sell it to you for more. Apple running two tests is not going to keep it from failing anymore than any other drive you can buy. You think that Apples quality control is that tight? Yeah, right. This forum is littered with posts for defective Apple products that got by quality control. Do you really believe that Apple installed drives are made with some sort of magic? Sorry, I digress. Here's the bottom line:

Apple: 500GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s [Add $400]

Newegg:Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 ST3500630AS 500GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM $259.99

The Seagate is faster and cheaper. And probably a better drive that Apple uses (16MB cache vs 8).

Those Apple installed drives cost around $400 per machine EXTRA ($140 x 3 x 2). With the money you freely gave to Apple, so they could run two tests, you would have been able to buy 3 extra drives and an external housing to run a terabyte firewire 800 raid for backup! And still have a extra drive to put on a shelve for emergencies. Now who's being pound foolish?


Firewire dual case (http://www.cooldrives.com/dusahadrfi80.html)

Oh well, I give up. I'll leave you alone now. Good luck.

[THX1139]

Also maybe the HD companies send the tested and true ones to the manufacturers and put the barely passed or tested lightly ones on the shelves.

Don't think it's true? Family members owned a modem manufacturing company (huge public co.) and they used to do exactly that all the time with their modems.


Ooohh, sounds like a conspiracy theory!!! Try telling that to the millions of PC users and gamers who build their own systems. What about all those external drive vendors. Do they get bad drives too? LOL!!!

[Macinposh]

1.

When a drive fails the issue is not just down time, but potential loss of data!

2.
Now, I am not saying that the aftermarket drives are cheapos and the Apple ones are the finest, because in some cases they might even APPEAR to be identical, but my experience has been that the Apple original drives last, and the aftermarket ones fail.


3.
And on the G4 some of the memory failed. Apple refused to service, because obviously it was a non-Apple part. So, there I was left with a broken machine, and down time, because I tried to save some money.


4.
Bottom line: if your tool (whether it be software or hardware) makes you money, then you will not jeopardize its use by cutting corners. Why mess with your livelihood?



1.
Backup.Backup.Backup.And once more,backup.
Obviously.
Raid,NAS,DVD or what ever.
The drives have their MTBF and once they go,they go.




2.
You are buying from apple whatever they might have in the store at that moment!!! Frigging sake,they use Hitachis,Seagates,WDs, whatever they are suplied with at that moment. The worst part in that is that you dont know what you will get!!! You might get a model with 8.9ms seek time and 8mb cache OR a 8.6ms seek time and 16MB cache.
In a worst case, you might get different HDDs in the same machine, and you dont even know that.
Try to build a RAID array with that.
So getting buying OEM hard-drives you can make sure that you buy enterprise class HDDs in the first place,with longer MTBFs.
AND with the saved money you can buy 30% more HDDs and put them on your shelf waiting for a HDD to fail. Then you just throw in it,take the data from your backups and get the system running.

You´ll propably have that done sooner than gotten the apple care people to answer you phone call.


3.

I dont know where you live,but in most cities getting the replacent memory via a delivery/messenger would take about 1hour.
You buy it from some store and have that delivered.
Apple store,fine.Some other store,fine too.
Those aftermarket memories are mostly done in the same factories that where the apple memories are done too. Going kingston or crucial is a quite safe bet nowadays.

AND you will get 2x the memory for the same price.
That money you could use to buy more memory AND some "backup" memory.
Like,if your memory would fail in the middle of a stormy night, could applecare do anything? No.
Pop your backup in and keep on producing.


4.
Because most of us small/middle size companies DONT have money coming pouring in from the doors and windows they tend to be more
money conscious in their purchase. I tend to use the profits on myself,instead of soaking my suppliers with money.






Let´s put it this way.

You buy a Jaguar with all the blings and a good service contract for 100.000$.Then you drive.

I buy a Jaguar too.But I bling it with a lot of pimpy stuff making it UberPimp. And i pay 30.000$ for it.

On a dark and stormy night,you cruise along with your girl in your normal Jaguar and suffer a puncture. You call the service.They tell you to wait for 3 hours,because there is a lot of punctures on that stormy night.
But well,I happen to drive past with my UberPimp jaguar.Well,you bored girl asks for a ride, and..why not!!?Jump in,girl!
But alas!
I suffer a punctured tyre too!!! What a coincidence!!?
But as a handy man, I change my tyre,and after 5mins we are going to my Casa (wich I pimped with some 70.000$ that I had lying around..) to make some mad love with the girl,because she thinks it´s hot that a man can change his tyres.

End of story.


Obviosly,different companies have different business modells.
What works for some,doesnt work for the other.

My business modell is to make as much money possible,with as small investments possible,while still maintaining OR surprassing my competitors quality by being creative.
And knowing my **** well.

But thats just me.
:)

[relimw]

Grr. My ship date has moved out to Sept. 20th from the 7th. Talk about last minute slippage.

[BigHat]

This thread has settled down so I thought I'd ask you pros a quick question.

I have a 20" iMac dual core 2.0. Nice machine, but I'd REALLY like to get a bigger display and have embarked on some hi res photo work in RAW. Have purchased Aperture and have started fooling with it. Seems to work okay. I also aspire to maybe start playing with a video camera (maybe HD). Other than that I pretty much use the computer for medium sized spreadsheets, email, and basic word processing. Almost forgot, I also use it as an iTunes music server that I control from laptops around the house.

Of course, no one NEEDs a reason for a particular computer, but do you think the MacPro would be overkill? Again, I don't design stuff in PS or do any gaming. Do you think one of the new iMacs with a 24" screen would suffice or would you press for the 2.66 MP (or 3.0??). I must admit I like the idea of future mods too. With a 30" screen my configuration would be about $6K. The iMac would be about half of that. Again, not adverse to spending the cash but hate to think the machine would be WAY underutilized.

Thanks for your input.

Thanks

[Trekkie]

Of course, no one NEEDs a reason for a particular computer, but do you think the MacPro would be overkill? Again, I don't design stuff in PS or do any gaming. Do you think one of the new iMacs with a 24" screen would suffice or would you press for the 2.66 MP (or 3.0??). I much admit I like the idea of future mods too. With a 30" screen my configuration would be about $6K. The iMac would be about half of that. Again, not adverse to spending the cash but hate to think the machine would be WAY underutilized.

Here are my thoughts, take it for what it's worth.

Because of the photography aspect, at first I would have said Mac Pro. Why? Because of the video card upgradability. You could go with the 2.66GHz and be perfectly happy, and in a year you could probably find some 3.0GHz chips on the used market if you needed more processing power.

But now that the iMac 24" has a socketed video card, that changes the game. If I could have updated my iMac G5's video card, I'd have been ok. Aperture doesn't run on the slow vid card in my gen1 iMac has, but the processor did.

The challenge is that if the iMac 24" has the socketed video card, thanks to Apple's insistance on secrecy we may never know if they plan on letting you upgrade that card or someone makes a card you could upgrade too in the future. With the Mac Pro you have a good guess as to it's upgradability over time as it has a proven

I'm sure if you had the extra power you could find a use for it, or the machine would have more legs over time for you to enjoy. Don't fall for the processor marketing of more cores, not everything benefits from that as much as they'd like you to think.