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Unspeaked
Aug 8, 2006, 02:48 PM
So who else thought Apple went a little too far with the anti-Microsoft stuff yesterday?

I thought it actually cheapened Apple and the Mac OS X product.

I'm a huge Mac fan, and hardly use any Microsoft products, except for Office every once in a while. I don't even find anything wrong with those Mac vs PC ads that have been airing (though, admittedly, I'm not a huge fan of them).

But all those banners and taunts and jokes being cracked at the Keynote seemed awkward - if a company's as much of an originator and so far ahead of the curve as Apple claims to be, those sorts of actions shouldn't be necessary. It's like a high school kid picking on an elementary school kid who's trying to dress like him; the high school kid should be mature enough to know better.

Not only did Apple show immaturity, they insulted their audience, who already KNEW what Apple was trying to show and didn't NEED to be spoon-fed the fact that many of Microsoft's "innovations" came after Apple introduced them.

Apple's not perfect, either, and the attitude they've sported at WWDC is exactly the kind of thing that makes PC users loathe Mac users and draw conclusions without trying out products.

It's also the kind of attitude that makes me not care so much when they release a major bomb like the Cube. I wouldn't even mind if the whole Zune thing (which I previously couldn't stand) shaves a few percentage points of market share off Apple's MP3 player market.

heehee
Aug 8, 2006, 02:53 PM
I do find it funny they are bashing MS, but I don't think it's necessary.

yellow
Aug 8, 2006, 02:54 PM
Yes, I found it to be a bit childish.
They should take the high road and stick to it. But they never do.
It's the 'privilege' of being the underdog.

Unspeaked
Aug 8, 2006, 02:56 PM
I do find it funny they are bashing MS, but I don't think it's necessary.

Well, when the anti-Microsoft banners first started leaking out yesterday, I thought they were amusing; it made me smile.

You know, I was, like, "Wow, Apple's got one or two anti-Microsoft banners up! That's kinda cool; it'll light a little fire under their toes..."

Then I see another and another and another and then large chunks of the Keynote are about Microsoft and instead of friendly, witty teasing, it comes across as desperation and obsession.

Like, "Uh, yeah Steve, calm down. There's more to life than Microsoft..."

jellybean
Aug 8, 2006, 03:03 PM
I thought some of the jabs were quite harsh, especially when watching the french guy compare OS X to Vista.

Vista and OS X do have big similarities, but I wouldn't say Microsoft just copied everything like what was implied.

If some company just came out of the blue with a completely new operating system, there's no way it'll have a bland, grey, UI. It's a pretty safe bet it'll have lots of shiny buttons and cool effects, like a modern OS would have.

And that banner... "Hasta la Vista, Vista?" The new stuff in Leopard is hardly anything to blow Vista away. I was really hoping Leopard is going to make Vista seem inferior when they're both compared side-by-side once released, but as they currently stand they seem pretty much like equals. Possibly even Vista being slightly cooler, with (what I consider) a much nicer UI and some other neat stuff which isn't in OS X. I'm just hoping Leopard's "top secret" stuff will change all that.

But I did find PC guy's intro funny...especially the line which went something like "maybe whilst you're not doing anything you could help us with Vista...er, we could use a hand there" :D lol

Timepass
Aug 8, 2006, 03:06 PM
there is a fine line bettween slightly joking and crossing it to going to far. Apple didnt just cross that line they went way past it.
And to make it even worse worse 2 of the "new features" in leapod are pretty big copies of stuff XP has had for a while.

Space is a pretty blantant copy of a multidesktop power toy for XP that is at lest 4 years old now (if not older) I have a screen shot of it off my computer from fall 02 and I am pretty sure it is older than that.
And lets see time mechition is a pretty big copy of system restore or any other auto back up program. Both have been out for a while.

I sorry but if apple is going to thow crap like it did at WWDC then it better be damn sure none of the things it is bragging about is at all a remote copy of something XP has had for a long time and well 2 of the biggest are copies.

Cuckoo
Aug 8, 2006, 03:07 PM
I fully agree with you. I think MS has done nothing to provoke this response.

let them be.... a lot op people know how much better apple is. Some disagree, but both ways are fine, no sence in picking in such a childish way

Dont Hurt Me
Aug 8, 2006, 03:07 PM
Microsoft does stink but at least they know how to make a Mouse:cool:

iMeowbot
Aug 8, 2006, 03:09 PM
This sibling rivalry been going on between Microsoft and Apple forever. Both get in their little zingers, and then later the same day they are working together on something. It's all for show.

yellow
Aug 8, 2006, 03:11 PM
Space is a pretty blantant copy of a multidesktop power toy for XP that is at lest 4 years old now (if not older) I have a screen shot of it off my computer from fall 02 and I am pretty sure it is older than that.

Virtual Desktops has been part of UNIX for a very, very, very long time.
A lot longer than either Microsoft or Apple can claim.

However.. Fast User Switching is a blatant rip-off from Windows.

Unspeaked
Aug 8, 2006, 03:15 PM
And that banner... "Hasta la Vista, Vista?" The new stuff in Leopard is hardly anything to blow Vista away. I was really hoping Leopard is going to make Vista seem inferior when they're both compared side-by-side once released, but as they currently stand they seem pretty much like equals. Possibly even Vista being slightly cooler, with (what I consider) a much nicer UI and some other neat stuff which isn't in OS X. I'm just hoping Leopard's "top secret" stuff will change all that.

Yeah, that's another point I had: after all that bashing, you'd think Leopard would have looked lightyears ahead of Tiger; instead, it had some cool features, but it wasn't what I'd call a Vista-killer. Assuming Vista is ever released... heh.

bigandy
Aug 8, 2006, 03:29 PM
I fully agree with you. I think MS has done nothing to provoke this response.
isn't that what they were getting at? :rolleyes:

sorry, couldn't resist.

i do think it is a bit childish, but it was provoked. Microsoft are ripping off MacOS more blatantly than they have for a good few years.

finalcoolman
Aug 8, 2006, 03:37 PM
isn't that what they were getting at? :rolleyes:

sorry, couldn't resist.

i do think it is a bit childish, but it was provoked. Microsoft are ripping off MacOS more blatantly than they have for a good few years.

Sigh. Umm, whatever. What the hell do you call Time Machine? I couldn't believe the hipocracy. Blaming Microsoft of immitating them and introducing time machine as a revoloutionary new feture on the same stage. A feature that has been in Windows since the year 2000. Should I also mention unprovoked a la US invasion of Iraq? When was the last time Bill Gates went on stage and said ANYTHING bad about Apple? Microsoft has infact been very supportive towards Apple. But what else can I expect from a bunch of sheep.

iMeowbot
Aug 8, 2006, 03:47 PM
When was the last time Bill Gates went on stage and said ANYTHING bad about Apple? Microsoft has infact been very supportive towards Apple. But what else can I expect from a bunch of sheep.

Microsoft in fact throw around FUD about Apple all the time.

Gates on the inevitable failure of the Apple iPod: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/05/12/tech/main694822.shtml

Ballmer on how the iPod (unlike WMA) promotes piracy: http://management.silicon.com/itpro/0,39024675,39124642,00.htm

Microsoft were caught running a false Mac-to-Windows "switch" ad: http://www.macobserver.com/article/2002/10/14.14.shtml

Lau
Aug 8, 2006, 03:50 PM
Agreed, I thought it made them look bitter and desperate, and the stupid thing is that there's no need to Leopard will be better than Vista, hell, Tiger's probably better than Vista.

Timepass
Aug 8, 2006, 03:51 PM
for the most part apple wwdc was more about mud slinging that it was about being about it product.

Come on at M$ confresses they really dont talk much trash about apple for the most part they pay no attention to them or even care about them. It is about m$ product and not much else like it should be.

Apple as become more like the Replicants all trash talk and very little about there stuff.

Also there is a reason I stop paying attention to politics. It became all trash talk. If apple keeps acting like this I will for the most part stop paying attention to what they have to say.

jackc
Aug 8, 2006, 03:51 PM
Should have at least waited for more of the "top secret" features before making all of the Vista comparisons.

Do you think Jobs and Gates have a little friendly understanding there? A little bragging for Steve, something to show the antitrust guys for Bill.

finalcoolman
Aug 8, 2006, 03:53 PM
Microsoft in fact throw around FUD about Apple all the time.

Gates on the inevitable failure of the Apple iPod: url=http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/05/12/tech/main694822.shtml

Ballmer on how the iPod (unlike WMA) promotes piracy: http://management.silicon.com/itpro/0,39024675,39124642,00.htm

Microsoft were caught running a false Mac-to-Windows "switch" ad: http://www.macobserver.com/article/2002/10/14.14.shtml

Except the iPod has nothing to do with computing. Yesterday, they werent slandering Microsofts upcoming MP3 player onstage they were slandering Windows which Microsoft has never done before to Apple OS X/computers. And MS running ONE reverse switch ad? Umm, I'd call that a fair retaliation to Apple's countless switch CAMPAIGNS. You Apple zealots are distubing how you will twist the story in any way to conform with your blind no holds barred worship of Apple.

iMeowbot
Aug 8, 2006, 04:18 PM
Except the iPod has nothing to do with computing.
The iPod has absolutely nothing to do with computing except that it's a computer in its own right as well as a computer peripheral. Because that is where Apple is an actual competitor to Microsoft, that is where they put their competitive efforts.

Of course, there is no need for Microsoft to waste time spreading FUD about the Mac, it has never lived up to its potential in the marketplace. Microsoft use a different approach there, namely condescension and dismissal (as demonstrated by the Microsoft switch ad).

jellybean
Aug 8, 2006, 04:18 PM
In Apple's defence on the "Time Machine is copied from Windows" stuff... granted, it's nothing new, but Apple have implemented it in a way only a company like Apple could. The cool effects, the incredible ease of use. I know of some sort of backup utilities we've seen in Windows over the years but I've never bothered to look into them. I've had no great interest in reading through dialog after dialog of stuff, think about what settings I'm changing etc. The way Apple have done it is in a very self-explanitary way. Nice and easy, very user friendly.

But for Apple to knock Windows for copying them and then respond with something copied from them, is very sad.

It would be a lot better if Apple would just focus on what's good about Apple, rather than focusing on what's bad about someone else.

wPod
Aug 8, 2006, 04:27 PM
i thought it was funny until apple started talking about the new mail enhancements. . . having note and to do built right into mail kinda (completely) reminds me of M$ outlook! but i must admit, especially in vista, M$ has ripped off some of the better aspects of OS X. but with running on the registry and .dll files M$ will be just as bad as ever. . . . when they finally release vista!

After G
Aug 8, 2006, 04:31 PM
I do agree that Apple (Steve and Bertrand mostly) went a bit far in poking at Microsoft.

But I don't think Steve said anything about being the first to make virtual desktops. Just "a new way of working with your Mac." He didn't say a new way of working, no matter what OS.

Let Steve be bitter. His actions shouldn't reflect on your opinion of the OS. Apple has great engineers, to be able to do what MS does in a fraction of the time. And if you had an OS as great as OS X, Amiga, OS/2, or Linux, and the rest of the world didn't notice, you'd be pissed off as hell too. Like when you know the way to do a math problem really easily and the person you are helping doesn't get it.

Microsoft doesn't need to run FUD or make fun of Mac OS though. There's enough ignorant people and "my computer is better than yours" types to make up for it. "Macs are incompatible with the Internet ... Macs are for creative types ... Macs use special memory and incompatible hard drives" ... ugh.

I've seen a lot of people saying "Time Machine" is copied from Windows System Restore or Vista's Previous Versions. It's not. Please stop thinking that. Incremental file backups is a lot better than volume shadow copy. Saving only what changes is a lot more efficient than making a copy of the file every time there's a change. And with System Restore, only Microsoft's files get saved. Not yours.

user23
Aug 8, 2006, 04:45 PM
Sigh. Umm, whatever. What the hell do you call Time Machine? I couldn't believe the hipocracy. Blaming Microsoft of immitating them and introducing time machine as a revoloutionary new feture on the same stage. A feature that has been in Windows since the year 2000. Should I also mention unprovoked a la US invasion of Iraq? When was the last time Bill Gates went on stage and said ANYTHING bad about Apple? Microsoft has infact been very supportive towards Apple. But what else can I expect from a bunch of sheep.

you are possibly mistaken in this matter.

MS does not have an implementation of this "feature" that works as easily & simply as Time Machine - let alone the other differences described by the previous poster.

baaaah. :D

user23
Aug 8, 2006, 04:58 PM
there is a fine line bettween slightly joking and crossing it to going to far. Apple didnt just cross that line they went way past it.
And to make it even worse worse 2 of the "new features" in leapod are pretty big copies of stuff XP has had for a while.

Space is a pretty blantant copy of a multidesktop power toy for XP that is at lest 4 years old now (if not older) I have a screen shot of it off my computer from fall 02 and I am pretty sure it is older than that.
And lets see time mechition is a pretty big copy of system restore or any other auto back up program. Both have been out for a while.

I sorry but if apple is going to thow crap like it did at WWDC then it better be damn sure none of the things it is bragging about is at all a remote copy of something XP has had for a long time and well 2 of the biggest are copies.


Uh, how are these 2 similar?

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/helpandsupport/learnmore/systemrestore.mspx

http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/timemachine.html

btw: time mechition, as you spelled it, is not a 'pretty big copy' - it is an evolution. For example, Human beings are not pretty big copies of Apes; rather, they are an evolution away from apes. Note the difference.

VanNess
Aug 8, 2006, 05:20 PM
But all those banners and taunts and jokes being cracked at the Keynote seemed awkward - if a company's as much of an originator and so far ahead of the curve as Apple claims to be, those sorts of actions shouldn't be necessary. It's like a high school kid picking on an elementary school kid who's trying to dress like him; the high school kid should be mature enough to know better.

Not only did Apple show immaturity, they insulted their audience, who already KNEW what Apple was trying to show and didn't NEED to be spoon-fed the fact that many of Microsoft's "innovations" came after Apple introduced them...It's also the kind of attitude that makes me not care so much when they release a major bomb like the Cube. I wouldn't even mind if the whole Zune thing (which I previously couldn't stand) shaves a few percentage points of market share off Apple's MP3 player market.

Calm down.

You're making a huge deal out of this and there isn't any real issue to begin with. Apple is basically preaching to the choir with the MS jabs, and they don't expect that it's going to be taken this seriously. Jobs always says they are just poking fun at Microsoft and that's really the extent of it. If there was really a serious issue at stake, they wouldn't hang a bunch of trite banners about it, they would take them to court.

It should be perfectly obvious that there has always been an anti-MS contingent of Mac users (aka, paying customers) that this sort of stuff plays to, and as far as Microsoft's Vista copying OS X features, it's been noted in the press by critics who can hardly be described as Mac zealots, so it's not soley an Apple contrivance.

Meanwhile, you get to sit back, relax, and enjoy your operating system of choice.

zap2
Aug 8, 2006, 06:28 PM
Come on.. Apple did this with Tiger aswell ("RedMond start your photocopyers")
but they stepped it up with year(and they should Vista is the first new MS OS in a while, ands its mostly Apple based stuff) i mean Gadgets and Aero.. it low on MS half.

But really its all in good fun, Apple's joking around with MS, Apple clearly is not waging a war with MS or they wouldn't support BootCamp(and heck even put ads about running XP on a Mac)

hulugu
Aug 8, 2006, 06:29 PM
Except the iPod has nothing to do with computing. Yesterday, they werent slandering Microsofts upcoming MP3 player onstage they were slandering Windows which Microsoft has never done before to Apple OS X/computers. And MS running ONE reverse switch ad? Umm, I'd call that a fair retaliation to Apple's countless switch CAMPAIGNS. You Apple zealots are distubing how you will twist the story in any way to conform with your blind no holds barred worship of Apple.

I have a little rule, similar to Godwins, in that the minute someone calls someone else a zealot, fanboi, or some other variation (say sheep) they have ceased saying useful things.

Also, you need to look up the word slander.

zap2
Aug 8, 2006, 06:32 PM
Except the iPod has nothing to do with computing. Yesterday, they werent slandering Microsofts upcoming MP3 player onstage they were slandering Windows which Microsoft has never done before to Apple OS X/computers. And MS running ONE reverse switch ad? Umm, I'd call that a fair retaliation to Apple's countless switch CAMPAIGNS. You Apple zealots are distubing how you will twist the story in any way to conform with your blind no holds barred worship of Apple.

Yes.. i agree Apple should not put out ads saying the pluses about OS X.. why would they want to make money?

Also its clear Apple does not hate MS, as the support MS's OS on Apple's hardware.

dpaanlka
Aug 8, 2006, 08:20 PM
So who else thought Apple went a little too far with the anti-Microsoft stuff yesterday?

Not me

zoziw
Aug 8, 2006, 10:57 PM
I thought the jabs yesterday went a little far. Should have left it at the commercial.

I thought it was interesting they brought out someone who didn't speak very good english to talk about Vista. Almost felt like a jab against Roz at MS who doesn't speak as clearly as most presenters do.

GFLPraxis
Aug 8, 2006, 11:03 PM
I think it's about time. It's rather true. Last year, Apple made a single crack about the photocopiers, but Microsoft actually did go and outright copy EVERYTHING. If it was just a bunch of rude cracks I'd be unhappy, but Apple went up onstage and showed comparison shots. They brought proof, not accusations.

BGil
Aug 9, 2006, 02:13 PM
I do agree that Apple (Steve and Bertrand mostly) went a bit far in poking at Microsoft.

But I don't think Steve said anything about being the first to make virtual desktops. Just "a new way of working with your Mac." He didn't say a new way of working, no matter what OS.

Let Steve be bitter. His actions shouldn't reflect on your opinion of the OS. Apple has great engineers, to be able to do what MS does in a fraction of the time. And if you had an OS as great as OS X, Amiga, OS/2, or Linux, and the rest of the world didn't notice, you'd be pissed off as hell too. Like when you know the way to do a math problem really easily and the person you are helping doesn't get it.

Microsoft doesn't need to run FUD or make fun of Mac OS though. There's enough ignorant people and "my computer is better than yours" types to make up for it. "Macs are incompatible with the Internet ... Macs are for creative types ... Macs use special memory and incompatible hard drives" ... ugh.

I've seen a lot of people saying "Time Machine" is copied from Windows System Restore or Vista's Previous Versions. It's not. Please stop thinking that. Incremental file backups is a lot better than volume shadow copy. Saving only what changes is a lot more efficient than making a copy of the file every time there's a change. And with System Restore, only Microsoft's files get saved. Not yours.


System Restore, Previous Versions, and Backup in Vista are all based on the new volume shadow copy service. It does in fact have copy on write and bit-level change deltas (Time Machine does not). Never does it make a complete copy of a file that is already backed up. I'm not sure who told you that it didn't work that way.

Time Machine also requires a dedicated partition just for it's services, Vista does not. Time Machine backs up at timed intervals not after every change like Vista does.

Volume Shadow Copy in Vista (which is what runs Backup, System Restore, and Previous Docs) is far superior technologically to Time Machine.

7on
Aug 9, 2006, 02:54 PM
Time Machine is just Apple's Backup (http://www.apple.com/support/downloads/backup.html) only prettified and works without .Mac.

There, the secret has been solved.

_Matt
Aug 9, 2006, 02:56 PM
C'mon guys. Apple users have been pushed around for years by Microsoft. PC users have laughed in our faces as we helplessly defended the PowerPC and its supposed greatness. :( It's time for us to show those PC geeks what we're made of. If people thought Apple went too far at WWDC, I can't imagine what those people will think when this competition really heats up in Winter/Spring '07. Silicon Valley is going to need a few more heat sinks. :p

P.S. I love Bertron's accent. It's the greatest! :D

Timepass
Aug 9, 2006, 03:17 PM
C'mon guys. Apple users have been pushed around for years by Microsoft. PC users have laughed in our faces as we helplessly defended the PowerPC and its supposed greatness. :( It's time for us to show those PC geeks what we're made of. If people thought Apple went too far at WWDC, I can't imagine what those people will think when this competition really heats up in Winter/Spring '07. Silicon Valley is going to need a few more heat sinks. :p

P.S. I love Bertron's accent. It's the greatest! :D


and yet apple had to eat their words about Powerpc in the end. Trashing intel x86 one year and then the following year using them.

LoveMacMini
Aug 9, 2006, 03:36 PM
Let the product speak for itself, those bastards had Vista 2.0 banners and hasta la vista banners, but what was showed off was completly dull and boring.

Time Machine is a pretty UI version of Windows Shadow Copy.

If they wanted to stick it to Microsoft they should have spent more time from their keynote to show off Leopard than going LOL VISTA IS LATE, LOL VISTA IS COPYING US, LOL THEY'RE SO SLOW DURRRR

I swear apple must hire middle school kids to work for their PR departments.

Let the products show themselves off, Mr. Jobs keeps on forgetting that even tho he said it at MacWorld Boston in 1997

"For Apple to win, it isn't about making Microsoft lose. We have to make better, more compeling products"

yet the keynote came off as super smug. personally i can't wait until jobs steps down because he represents everything i don't like about apple.

_Matt
Aug 9, 2006, 04:12 PM
and yet apple had to eat their words about Powerpc in the end. Trashing intel x86 one year and then the following year using them.

Precisely. It's not about the quality of the product any more when it comes to Apple and Microsoft. It's now about effective marketing and marketshare territories. This is the crossroads of both companies, and right now it is difficult to say who will come out victorious in accomplishing their goals.

hulugu
Aug 9, 2006, 04:30 PM
and yet apple had to eat their words about Powerpc in the end. Trashing intel x86 one year and then the following year using them.

Actually Apple trashed x86 for a while and then went quiet, even about the megahurtz myth, especially after the introduction of the G5. And, remember Apple was bagging on the P2 -> P4 which weren't all that great.

But, the new chips are really impressive. The architecture of the PPC remains cleaner and more efficient, but manufacturing those chips the same way that Intel has with the Core Duo, etc. has been a problem.

Intel deserves all their kudos, but at one time the x86 architecture was crap.

Things change.

7on
Aug 9, 2006, 04:36 PM
and yet apple had to eat their words about Powerpc in the end. Trashing intel x86 one year and then the following year using them.

And the Pentium 4 still sucks.

dsnort
Aug 9, 2006, 05:19 PM
So who else thought Apple went a little too far with the anti-Microsoft stuff yesterday?

Hmmmm! Let's review:

1 M$ is a huge company, a monolith. I don't think Gates, Bawl-mer, and company are crying on their way to the bank over the mean things some Apple exec said about them.

2.M$ has a long history of copying other companies products, those that they don't buy outright.

3.M$ has a long history of anti-competitive business practices.

4.M$ has been sued numerous times for their unethical behavior.

5.M$ has been caught numerous times falsifying evidence at these trials.

6.Former M$ employees have admitted falsifying testimony at these trials.

7.At the Government v. M$ anti-trust suit, the behavior of M$ top execs, including Bill Gates, was so obviously, blatantly, and egregiously contemptious of the legal process as to prompt Judge Jackson to comment on it. (Which led to the judgement against them being overturned on appeal)

I guess my view on the jabs Apple took at M$ is....at least they made people laugh. The real truth isn't all that funny!

timswim78
Aug 9, 2006, 08:40 PM
Yes, I think that Apple went off on an out-of-touch-with-reality ego trip.

I would go into detail about how so many of the things that were said were off base, but this message would go on forever. I don't own a Mac because I hat MS. I own a Mac, because I like Mac's. I also happen to like SUSE Linux, Windows XP, and Windows 2000 and use them all regularly.

Aside from all of the details that Apple convoluted, I would like to point out the 800 pound gorilla that is standing in the corner. MS could play the same game if they wanted to tout MS Office and point out how Apple has failed miserably at coming to market with an office suite that is fully-feature and can actually do the work that is required in an office environment.

VanNess
Aug 9, 2006, 10:04 PM
System Restore, Previous Versions, and Backup in Vista are all based on the new volume shadow copy service...etc., etc., etc.

The purpose and intention of Time machine is to provide a simple, warm and fuzzy interface for steering users into making comprehensive, real world backups. It appears to succeed quite well in that intention, and the allusions to Vista's system restore, et al, is comparing, once again, apples to oranges. It may sound self-reassuring to MS fanboys who are given to swallow just about anything self-reassuring, but the simple fact that Time machine doesn't backup to your primary hard drive (which, for the intended purpose of backups, would be insane) and backs up to a separate drive pretty much shows Vista and Leopard approach the methodology differently.

VanNess
Aug 9, 2006, 10:24 PM
The architecture of the PPC remains cleaner and more efficient, but manufacturing those chips the same way that Intel has with the Core Duo, etc. has been a problem. Intel deserves all their kudos, but at one time the x86 architecture was crap. Things change.

When the G5 was originally introduced, it was one amazing, powerful chip (and still is for most users), and a giant leap forward for Apple. So the Intel bashing at the time in terms of performance was well justified. But that didn't last long. The problem with the G5 wasn't it's architecture, it was IBM's absolutely anemic updates to it. It became apparent that it was all but a question of time before IBM would fall behind Intel, potentially far behind, and IBM didn't seem to be the least bit concerned.

That's why Apple just didn't compare the present G5 architecture with Intel's chips, they looked at the future roadmap for both, and that's when the decision was made. It's too bad about the G5, but Apple didn't have to "eat it's own words" regarding it because at the time, what Apple claimed was perfectly valid. Obviously, after a few miserable (and late) updates from IBM along with Apple-designed CPU liquid cooling systems just to make the damn things work, and no end to this nonsense in sight, it was time to say adios to IBM.

Timepass
Aug 9, 2006, 10:42 PM
I dont think the blame all lyes on IBM. PPC arch was flawed from the begining. G5 was a thermo nightmare to put up with. PPC could not get the speed that AMD and intel where both getting on x86 with out heat being coming a huge factor.people keep saying it IBM fault but I bet it was a engineering nightmare to keep increasing the speeds and not having heat issues. The huge sign that there where heat problems was the fact that apple had to go to liquid cooling. To me that was a huge sign that something was wrong with PPC. They arch was producing way to much heat to keep increasing the speeds.

It may be more effeince but it hit the max speeds a lot sooner than x86 did. Also x86 has hit the speed barrier as well. There a reason everyone is going to the multicore. They are maxing out the single core.

That all being said apple is a very hypicritcal company. They will bash one thing and then the next day be worshiping it acting like it is the greating thing ever. (ingtergrating graphic, x86 and so on).

Like some else said earily the product should sell itself. It should not require the mudslinging that apple is currently doing. That is the first sign that something is wrong. That or Steve Jobs is starting to go back to stuff that got him fired in the first place and may need to be fired again. Apple losing my respect as a company and the keynots are no long worth watching because they spend more time bashing comppetors than showing why they are good. there a reason I quite paying attention to politics. Maybe it is time I do the same to apple and do my own reasearch on them from better sourse. Apple is already one of the worse places to get infomation on there stuff.

Orlando Furioso
Aug 9, 2006, 10:45 PM
Time Machine is just Apple's Backup (http://www.apple.com/support/downloads/backup.html) only prettified and works without .Mac.

There, the secret has been solved.


!?!?

*knock knock*

anyone home?

LoveMacMini
Aug 9, 2006, 11:50 PM
They spent a good portion of their keynote insulting Vista when they could have been showing off features that truely deserved that "Vista 2.0" name.

I felt like I was watching a high school popularity contest, not a keynote.

sunfast
Aug 10, 2006, 04:15 AM
I reckon it went a little too far. It was funny at first but generally I don't like negative marketing like that - would much prefer that they concentrated on making a significantly superior product that would speak for itself.

sushi
Aug 10, 2006, 04:22 AM
Yeah, it probably went too far.

It was funny to watch -- once. I did find myself laughing at times.

However, it would have been better not to have bashed Microsoft so much. IMHO it cheapens Apple's image as a class act.

Unspeaked
Aug 10, 2006, 11:48 AM
Actually Apple trashed x86 for a while and then went quiet, even about the megahurtz myth, especially after the introduction of the G5.

Really? I don't recall that.

I seem to remember all of Apple's benchmarks clearly showing that whatever new machine had been introduced with a G5 chip (or even G4 chip, in the case of the portable line) was X times faster than an Intel chip.

Unspeaked
Aug 10, 2006, 11:50 AM
Hmmmm! Let's review:

1 M$ is a huge company, a monolith. I don't think Gates, Bawl-mer, and company are crying on their way to the bank over the mean things some Apple exec said about them.

2.M$ has a long history of copying other companies products, those that they don't buy outright.

3.M$ has a long history of anti-competitive business practices.

4.M$ has been sued numerous times for their unethical behavior.

5.M$ has been caught numerous times falsifying evidence at these trials.

6.Former M$ employees have admitted falsifying testimony at these trials.

7.At the Government v. M$ anti-trust suit, the behavior of M$ top execs, including Bill Gates, was so obviously, blatantly, and egregiously contemptious of the legal process as to prompt Judge Jackson to comment on it. (Which led to the judgement against them being overturned on appeal)

I guess my view on the jabs Apple took at M$ is....at least they made people laugh. The real truth isn't all that funny!


Oh, ok. So since your laundry list of Microsoft grips is fairly accurate, that makes it OK for Apple to make themselves look smug and condescening?

Way to take the high road, there, Steve!

TBi
Aug 10, 2006, 12:27 PM
The heat problems were not caused by the PPC architecture but by the way the G5 was built. Same thing happened with the P4. That was one thirsty chip.

With enough R&D all these problems could have been fixed and we would be sitting here with ultra fast G5 machines. However i thank god they didn't because the benefits of X86 far out weigh any issues hard core users have with intel.

I dont think the blame all lyes on IBM. PPC arch was flawed from the begining. G5 was a thermo nightmare to put up with. PPC could not get the speed that AMD and intel where both getting on x86 with out heat being coming a huge factor.people keep saying it IBM fault but I bet it was a engineering nightmare to keep increasing the speeds and not having heat issues. The huge sign that there where heat problems was the fact that apple had to go to liquid cooling. To me that was a huge sign that something was wrong with PPC. They arch was producing way to much heat to keep increasing the speeds.

It may be more effeince but it hit the max speeds a lot sooner than x86 did. Also x86 has hit the speed barrier as well. There a reason everyone is going to the multicore. They are maxing out the single core.

That all being said apple is a very hypicritcal company. They will bash one thing and then the next day be worshiping it acting like it is the greating thing ever. (ingtergrating graphic, x86 and so on).

Like some else said earily the product should sell itself. It should not require the mudslinging that apple is currently doing. That is the first sign that something is wrong. That or Steve Jobs is starting to go back to stuff that got him fired in the first place and may need to be fired again. Apple losing my respect as a company and the keynots are no long worth watching because they spend more time bashing comppetors than showing why they are good. there a reason I quite paying attention to politics. Maybe it is time I do the same to apple and do my own reasearch on them from better sourse. Apple is already one of the worse places to get infomation on there stuff.

Evangelion
Aug 10, 2006, 03:51 PM
Paul Thurrot's opinion on the matter. (http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/macosx_leopard_preview.asp) And before you just label him as "Windows-fanboy", read his article. He does have a point.

I haven't seen the keynote yet, but judging from what I have heard, they did go a bit too far. I'm a firm believer of letting your products do the talking, instead of explicitly whining about your competitors. If Vista is crap and Leopard is great, why not let the product do the talking, instead of embarrassing yourself by screaing "our competitors product is crap!"? To me, that kind of behavior smells of desperation.

yellow
Aug 10, 2006, 04:04 PM
Imitation is the highest form of flattery. There's some high-road for ya.

DJMastaWes
Aug 10, 2006, 04:57 PM
I think they were kind of harsh, however I loved every minute of it, and it was REALLY funny!

But I think this may create some argguments with M$ and Apple.

brepublican
Aug 10, 2006, 05:09 PM
All this trash talking is one-sided. MS doesnt even mention OS X, it's just an insignificant fly buzzing around; a minor annoyance.

And yes, it went too far. Don't think people don't notice. There was nothing revolutionary at the keynote. It sucked. Cover it up with a 'Hasta la vista, Vista' smokescreen if you wish. But people notice. I, for one, was not impressed.

dsnort
Aug 10, 2006, 07:02 PM
And yes, it went too far. Don't think people don't notice. There was nothing revolutionary at the keynote. It sucked. Cover it up with a 'Hasta la vista, Vista' smokescreen if you wish. But people notice. I, for one, was not impressed.

I must admit, the more I look at what was previewed in Leopard on monday, the more I think I can get along just fine with Tiger, and save my money for something else. Unless the "Top Secret" features are better than this, no sell.

weev
Aug 16, 2006, 08:32 AM
It's like a high school kid picking on an elementary school kid who's trying to dress like him; the high school kid should be mature enough to know better.

Except in this case the elementary school kid owns 95% of the school.

weev
Aug 16, 2006, 08:38 AM
I must admit, the more I look at what was previewed in Leopard on monday, the more I think I can get along just fine with Tiger, and save my money for something else. Unless the "Top Secret" features are better than this, no sell.


With Vista scrambling for ideas do you think Apple would lay down a blue print.

The whole mock MS bit was, in my opinion, a tactic, a way of outing Microsoft before they steal. They are now on notice.

Though many mac users might think it excessive most windows users don't know where the ideas in their new OS came from.

It's like when people just love that cover song without ever having heard the original version.

maxrobertson
Aug 16, 2006, 09:19 AM
I don't think they went too far at that point, but I hope they don't keep it up. It was funny then, but any more would start to look tasteless and lame.