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iJon
Mar 18, 2003, 04:36 PM
Well i walked by one being worked on here and I was like, what the hell that is different. So here is a picture of it. You can go to apple's site to see what the 1Ghz and Dual 1.25's heatsink looks like.

iJon

shadowfax
Mar 18, 2003, 05:05 PM
http://a1904.g.akamai.net/7/1904/51/cf6f036d6c2f7a/www.apple.com/r/store/gallery/powermac2003/images/5.jpg
http://a944.g.akamai.net/7/944/51/c1714be60c8537/www.apple.com/powermac/images/expansionbottom01292003.jpg
is this the image you had in mind? it looks like the sinks are missing there.

dang, that heat sink is funky on the 1.42! it looks like some exotic wood almost. what's it made of?

NavyIntel007
Mar 18, 2003, 05:08 PM
Looks like copper.

szark
Mar 18, 2003, 05:10 PM
Yea, the new one is copper with horizontal plates.

The old one is aluminum(?) with vertical plates.

iJon
Mar 18, 2003, 05:14 PM
your right, apple doesnt show it. here you go.

iJon

shadowfax
Mar 18, 2003, 05:25 PM
Ah, thanks iJon, it looks like they had one on the main site after all, but not too good.

i knew they were copper, but it's really shiny in your pic, and the way it's cut makes it look like wood cut across the grain... i dunno, it was striking.

iJon
Mar 18, 2003, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by Shadowfax
Ah, thanks iJon, it looks like they had one on the main site after all, but not too good.

i knew they were copper, but it's really shiny in your pic, and the way it's cut makes it look like wood cut across the grain... i dunno, it was striking.
no no its suppose to look like that. its not one huge copper block. its a bunch of skinny copper layers welded together with spaces in between them.

iJon

iJon
Mar 18, 2003, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by szark
Yea, the new one is copper with horizontal plates.

The old one is aluminum(?) with vertical plates.
even the new ones are aluminum. The sigle ghz and dual 1.25's have that power supply. the dual 1.42's have the new copper one. i dont know if you knew that and that was the point you are making. i just wanted to make sure.

iJon

Dont Hurt Me
Mar 18, 2003, 05:32 PM
Thanks ijohn, i dont mean to sound negative but i think this is a perfect example of apple squeezing every last drop out of motorolas g4 to stay on the same page as the 3 gig p4. They have resorted to 2 cpus and a massive copper heat sink. It is time for the 970 if not the next will be a water cooled overclocked g4.Its almost getting ridiculous.

shadowfax
Mar 18, 2003, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by iJon
no no its suppose to look like that. its not one huge copper block. its a bunch of skinny copper layers welded together with spaces in between them.

iJon

on the sides, yes, i see. damn those are close together! but i was talking about the one on the top when i said it was smooth. wow, that's a cool heat sink. is it not noisy, as close as they are together?

shadowfax
Mar 18, 2003, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
Thanks ijohn, i dont mean to sound negative but i think this is a perfect example of apple squeezing every last drop out of motorolas g4 to stay on the same page as the 3 gig p4. They have resorted to 2 cpus and a massive copper heat sink. It is time for the 970 if not the next will be a water cooled overclocked g4.

i doubt they will watercool. that is mondo expensive, and they shouldn't need to on the 970, i believe it draws less power.

scem0
Mar 18, 2003, 05:55 PM
for equal speeds, but let's hope we have higher speeds. ;)

cubist
Mar 18, 2003, 06:02 PM
No, that kind of heat sink is copper, with very close-together plates, because copper conducts heat better than aluminum. It's comparatively expensive for heat sinks. The amount of heat they are trying to dissipate must be truly phenomenal. I agree with "Don't Hurt Me", it shows that Apple is desperate to wring every bit of performance out of the G4.

Don't touch it if the computer's been running, BTW!

szark
Mar 18, 2003, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by iJon
even the new ones are aluminum. The sigle ghz and dual 1.25's have that power supply. the dual 1.42's have the new copper one. i dont know if you knew that and that was the point you are making. i just wanted to make sure.

iJon

Yes, I was aware of that. Just didn't say it very well.

I guess I should have said the new heatsink design vs. the old heatsink design... ;)

iJon
Mar 18, 2003, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by Shadowfax
on the sides, yes, i see. damn those are close together! but i was talking about the one on the top when i said it was smooth. wow, that's a cool heat sink. is it not noisy, as close as they are together?
didnt turn it on, just saw it open being worked on. ask law guy, he has one.

iJon

MacsRgr8
Mar 19, 2003, 11:24 AM
Here's a pic of a Dual 1.25 (FW 800) and 1.42 from the inside.
I have the 1.25, and a friend of mine has the 1.42. We had been playing multiplayer games, and wanted to compare the two interiors.
It was kinda late, so sorry for the pic not being perfect :)

MacsRgr8
Mar 19, 2003, 11:27 AM
Some extra info:
Notice indeed the two different heatsinks.... The 1.25 is on the left.
By the way, the 1.25 has a ATI Radeon 8500 installed. The 1.42 has the standard 9000. My 9000 is installed in a G4 500 Mhz (seen on the ground)

Mr. Anderson
Mar 19, 2003, 11:59 AM
Nice comparison pic. From the looks of it, the copper one is a little bit smaller - probably radiates the heat faster and the aluminum one couldn't do the job.

Very weird. But with a probable new mobo and case design for the 970s, who knows what we'll see with them.

D

Bear
Mar 19, 2003, 12:09 PM
I wonder if the copper heat sinks are properly coated or if they're going to turn green.

Make sure you don't scratch the coating on the heatsinks.

MacsRgr8
Mar 19, 2003, 12:09 PM
We also tried to "listen" to differences. And it 'sounds" like that the 1.42 is somewhat quieter than my 1.25!
That's good news isn't it?

edit: well not for me, obviously. :D

acj
Mar 19, 2003, 06:08 PM
But now it's in a mac. Come on release the 970!


...

I remember my PC overclocking days. I just needed little aluminum heatsinks and I could get my dual celeron 400 up to 600. 50% overclocks seem to be impossible now. Man that machine screamed for its time and for being a cheap system. I used to render a 3dsmax scene, burn a cd and play quake3 all at the same time just to, well, be a nerd.

shadowfax
Mar 19, 2003, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by acj
I used to render a 3dsmax scene, burn a cd and play quake3 all at the same time just to, well, be a nerd.

that's pretty impressive for a celeron, even dual.

my 933 MHz P3 would have locked up with just Quake and CD burning, even with the 512 MB RAM

acj
Mar 19, 2003, 06:14 PM
Wait, does anyone have a bigger photo? Since the fins are stacked horizontaly they must have heatpipes running vertically. Heat pipes transfer heat about 100 times faster than metal. Really. Combined with copper they make one helluva efficient cooler. However, this just confirms that this is being pushed to its limits.

Why do I say this? Well I own a gaming PC with a hot pentium 4 2.4 GHz. It's cooled by a heatpipe setup with a much much smaller Aluminum heat sink. When I'm not doing anything intensive, it doesn't even need a fan to stay cool and stable.

acj
Mar 19, 2003, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by Shadowfax
that's pretty impressive for a celeron, even dual.

my 933 MHz P3 would have locked up with just Quake and CD burning, even with the 512 MB RAM

Maybe Windows NT was more stable. The thing barely worked at 600MHz, but at 400 it never locked up.

I don't currently own a dual cpu computer but I miss it! Dual is so much better than single. I may choose a dual G4 over a single 970 if the price was the same and even if the 970 performed somewhat better. Dual CPUs just make the computer SEEM faster. I guess it's more responsive.

Dont Hurt Me
Mar 19, 2003, 06:30 PM
Duals are faster then a single . this is really true when running multiple stuff. Apple didnt start using duals because of this. they used them because motorola was frozen. they had to have something to market. You cant just keep selling 400 or 500 mhz machines forever. this is why they went dual. a dual 500 is not better then a single 1 giger this is fact. When the 970 shows itself it wont need a dual configuration. it is going to smoke any current dual everywhere. Now apple could still make a dual 970 but right now i dont see them needing it with a 970. we will have to wait and see how they compare in real world, xbench, photoshop, game frame rates and then we will know for sure. Duals where brought to market by apple because motorola wasnt moving forward and apple is a very forward company.

law guy
Mar 19, 2003, 08:01 PM
Another picture of the heatsink a little bit closer. There are no spaces between the copper plates. Note the excellent "hot" icon.

Dont Hurt Me
Mar 19, 2003, 08:08 PM
Nice picture is it a lot of fins as in normal heat sinks or is there a heat pipe in there somewhere.

law guy
Mar 19, 2003, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
Nice picture is it a lot of fins as in normal heat sinks or is there a heat pipe in there somewhere.

Well, not spaced fins like what I think of in a normal heatsink, i.e., with space for air to move between and carry off the heat conducted out from the chip. The 1.42 sink is more or less a solid looking block. I have no idea what a heatpipe looks, so I can't shed any light on that. It would have to be visible (at least a little) from the outside as you can't see into the copper block.

shadowfax
Mar 19, 2003, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by acj
Maybe Windows NT was more stable. than XP pro? nah. probably just the dualies.

iJon
Mar 19, 2003, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by law guy
Well, not spaced fins like what I think of in a normal heatsink, i.e., with space for air to move between and carry off the heat conducted out from the chip. The 1.42 sink is more or less a solid looking block. I have no idea what a heatpipe looks, so I can't shed any light on that. It would have to be visible (at least a little) from the outside as you can't see into the copper block.
how is the powemac doin, you get my email on .mac?

iJon

Le Big Mac
Mar 19, 2003, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by Bear
I wonder if the copper heat sinks are properly coated or if they're going to turn green.


Are you planning to dip it in water? If you keep it running, the heat will keep off any moisture.

anyway, a verdigris heat sink might look pretty cool.:cool:

law guy
Mar 19, 2003, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by iJon
how is the powemac doin, you get my email on .mac?

iJon

Excellent. I just put the USB card you guys sent. I think your email must be in my yahoo account - I'll go and look for it. Thanks iJon.

rainman::|:|
Mar 19, 2003, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by Le Big Mac
Are you planning to dip it in water? If you keep it running, the heat will keep off any moisture.

anyway, a verdigris heat sink might look pretty cool.:cool:

Copper oxidizes, which means it reacts with oxygen, that being in the air. heat notwithstanding, it should oxidize fairly quicky with the fan moving air around so fast...

it looks like it's been treated tho...

pnw

shadowfax
Mar 19, 2003, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by paulwhannel
Copper oxidizes, which means it reacts with oxygen, that being in the air. heat notwithstanding, it should oxidize fairly quicky with the fan moving air around so fast...

it looks like it's been treated tho...

pnw

i think that is right, hehe, but i think the water corrodes the coating on copper roofing and such, which lets it oxidize, which is what threw him off. is that right?

acj
Mar 19, 2003, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by Shadowfax
than XP pro? nah. probably just the dualies.

This was in 1999 dude. Sorry, no XP or OSX. NT was the only Dual CPU option (well for running common programs). But this is getting more and more off topic. This is a Mac forum.

Back to heat pipes... It looks like there are 4 in there, sticking out the top (as on my PC’s sink). That's basically the only way the sink could work effectively. Heat pipes can be anywhere from 3mm thick to a foot thick. The ones here look to be about 5-6mm thick (1/4 inch).

How they work: Heat pipes have a gas that is partially liquid at room temperature. The liquid, because of gravity, is at the bottom. When heat builds up, the liquid boils. It rises to the cooler fins, and condenses, releasing the heat (remember chem. Class?). This does not go back and forth, but rather is in a constant flow. The liquid flows down the sides of the pipe and the gas goes up the middle. This is an EXTREMELY effective way of moving heat, in fact 100 times or more fast than copper itself. Most (all?) laptops use heat pipes, but instead of gravity returning the liquid to the bottom they have a wick or ridges in the walls of the pipe.

I live in Alaska, and the trans-Alaska oil pipeline is suspended on pillars that contain heat pipes to keep the ground frozen and solid year round. In Fairbanks, it gets to -50 degrees in the winter. The liquid in the (relatively) warm ground at, say, 0 degrees, boils, and the whole cycle happens to slowly cool the ground to the air temperature. In the summer, when the air gets as high as 90 degrees, nothing happens, because the heat only travels one way. The ground was chilled enough in the winter to make it through the summer frozen. This is called permafrost. There’s a picture of me in Der Spiegel Magazine in an article about Alaska permafrost, but that’s another story…

caveman_uk
Mar 21, 2003, 05:26 AM
We took delivery of a 1U Dell server the other day which has a 2.4GHz P4 in it. It had a copper heat sink too - so it's not just for the PC overclocking crowd...Copper is more expensive but it is just better at removing heat. Apple aren't using fans on top of their heatsinks (unlike AMD Athlons) so they can't be that hot yet...

acj
Mar 21, 2003, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by caveman_uk
Apple aren't using fans on top of their heatsinks (unlike AMD Athlons) so they can't be that hot yet...


Yeah, their fan is to the side, and it's enormous. This is good, however, it can move the same amount of air at slower RPM's, and therefore be quieter and less whiny. Apple has superb case design (not speaking asthetically).

caveman_uk
Mar 22, 2003, 03:25 AM
Originally posted by acj
Apple has superb case design (not speaking asthetically).
Personally I think they look quite nice in a monolithic sort of way. :) Way better than the Beige POS I had before...(yes I'm a 'Switcher')

Quixcube
Mar 22, 2003, 08:08 PM
I took a look inside the new dual 1.33 GHz Xserve we got in and it is still using a very low profile (of course, since the unit is only 1u) aluminum heat sink. There is a blower pointed directly into the side of heat sink.

The part that I find interesting is how amazingly quiet the new Xserve is compared to the old one, even though the dual 1.33GHz chips have to give off considerably more heat than the old 1.0GHz parts did.

The old one we had sounded like there were two 800 watt hairdryers fighting inside the case. It was impossible to be near it. I configured the new one beside the old on in the rack, and when I finally cut the power on the old one I thought I had accidently killed the power to both of them. Silence descended. I was stunned to see that the new one was actually running, it just wasn't making any real noise.

So why the new heatsink on the tower? Do the 1.42GHz chips really give off that much more heat than the 1.33GHz chips? Noise shouldn't be an issue either if they mount one of the blowers that they use in the new Xserve.

Maybe they just want the WOW factor that a big shiny copper heatsink delivers.

bousozoku
Mar 26, 2003, 01:15 PM
How about a dual 800 heatsink just for comparison?

MacsRgr8
Mar 27, 2003, 03:07 AM
Luckily you don't have a quad! :D
Gr8 pic!

acj
Mar 27, 2003, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by Quixcube
So why the new heatsink on the tower? Do the 1.42GHz chips really give off that much more heat than the 1.33GHz chips? Noise shouldn't be an issue either if they mount one of the blowers that they use in the new Xserve.

Those blowers can move a lot of air efficiently. They may spin up when needed and make some more noise. Also, the 1.42's DO need a lot more cooling. Not only do they generate more heat, but they need to run cooler to be stable because they are being pushed so hard.

fyi, an increase in clock speed alone gives a linier increase in power consumption. An increase in voltage is exponential. For example: something with 1 ohm of resistance will draw 4 watts at 2 volts. At 4 volts it will draw 16 watts. Often increasing voltage slightly (NOT doubling like my example) is a way to get stability at higher clock speeds. But then you get more heat from the higher clock PLUS more heat from increasing the voltage, PLUS less high temperature stability. The end result is needing to keep a hotter chip cooler, hence the massive copper heat piped sink.

AlphaTech
Mar 27, 2003, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by Shadowfax
i doubt they will watercool. that is mondo expensive, and they shouldn't need to on the 970, i believe it draws less power.

Water cooling is NOT "mondo expensive". There are different levels of cooling kits, ranging all the way from under $100 to over/about $300 depending on what else you want to cool.

Still, with a large enough heat sink, and sufficient air flow there is NO reason to water cool a computer. There are even ways to get more effecient cooling by installing TEC (Thermal Electric Cooling) units. Just one example can be found here. (http://www.thermaltake.com/products/subzero/subzero4g.htm) I'm sure that there are other examples out there, as well as just the TEC plate itself that can be installed between the processor and heat sink. Just as I am sure that Apple could integrate the controller for such an item onto the motherboard.

The CONSTANT commenting on the 970 is getting VERY old. Apple will do what Apple will do and NOTHING you can say will change that. IF (HUGE IF) Apple decides to go with a 970 (or varient) then they will, and in their own sweet time. Until the next generation processor comes out, DEAL WITH IT and ****. :eek: :P

FuzzyBallz
May 2, 2003, 05:47 PM
Hmmm... nobody brought up where to buy the Dual 1.42 Cu heatsink. So does anyone know? After seeing this dude switching his aluminum dual 1.25 heatsink for the 1.42's, I'm tempted to do the same. If only the Cu heatsink's available for purchase.