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coopdog
Apr 5, 2003, 11:38 PM
I have a Mac G4 350 running Jag and it is bad for any kinda gaming, photoshop and it was murder tring to edit an hour and half of video a few weeks ago. So my Mac loving friend just bought and built a PC for about $600 with ATI 128 MB Graphics, 1.8 GHz AMD it is killer at everything! It maxed out every benchmark on this benchmark program we downloaded. Well I would still keep my G4, it's great for itunes and Jag oh so nice! But my dads laptop a Pentium 3 450mhz running XP Pro is so Slow... Epecialy in gaming area when is about the only time I use it since it takes about 3 min to start up. So I was planing on selling my dads laptop and using the $500 or so from it on buying a new PC it would be great for rendering video, GAMING, Photoshop and PC only stuff. But with all this news about new Apples comming out and IBM I would hate to waste my money on getting a good gaming PC when in a few months Apple drops prices and comes out with some great new computer. Can you advise me at all? The way i look at it is, XP is OK (no. it's bad compared to X) but a custom built PC the same speed as a Apple G4 would be about $600-$800 Vs. the apple $3000-$4500. Also on a PC later when new AMD's come out you can just swap out for a prosessor $90-$200, unlike apple where you have to get a XLR8 upgrade for up to or above $1000.

Can you please advise me on what to do?

macktheknife
Apr 5, 2003, 11:54 PM
That's the sad truth about the Mac vs. PC war these days. My friend and I built a PC with a 1800 AMD Athlon with 1 GB of RAM for about $750 and it rocks. My old 800 MHz P3 Dell Inspiron was actually faster than my current 550 MHz TiBook even with twice the RAM (512 MB).

Anyhow, I digress. If you *really* love gaming, then (I hate to say it) the PC is the way to go. Also, are you looking to buy a new laptop or desktop?

G5orbust
Apr 6, 2003, 12:29 AM
erm.. I hate to tell you... but the G4 was never introduced at 350 MHz. You probably have a B&W G3, which obviosuly is substantially slower and isnt even *supposed* to run Jag at all. So before swtiching to PC's, you should probably make sure of what you do have first.

but, on the advise part dont buy anything now. AMD has bus speed increases and new, smaller, faster procs on their way; some of which will be based on the fabled 64 Bit Clawhammer. Intel also has the pending release of its newer chips, which supposedly bump bus speed to an unheard of 800 MHz (200 MHz quad pumped or 200 MHz x 4). Apple too hs the impending release of the 970, which will dramatically reduce cost when it moves to the smaller die size and when it gets settled in as the new processor.

NavyIntel007
Apr 6, 2003, 12:30 AM
Screw gaming! Quit wasting your time, be productive.

G5orbust
Apr 6, 2003, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by NavyIntel007
Screw gaming! Quit wasting your time, be productive.

well, you cant exactly game on a 600$ PC anyways... unless its an insane bargain.

arn
Apr 6, 2003, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by G5orbust
erm.. I hate to tell you... but the G4 was never introduced at 350 MHz.

I owned one...

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?threadid=16430&highlight=350mhz

arn

kishba
Apr 6, 2003, 12:58 AM
HAHHAH


i actually bought arn's old 350!!

runs like a dream... not for video editing, but for most everything else...

physicsnerd
Apr 6, 2003, 01:02 AM
I hate to say it, and I love my mac, but if you want to game go with the PC. Mac hardware isn't that much slower then PCs, but there are way more games out there for PC. The down side is that you'll have to go with a microsoft OS, but thats where the market is at. Sigh. I run two boxes, my powerbook and a PIII. When I want to game I always use the PC. I've found that I can keep the PC fairly up to date for about $100 or so a year. They're cheap, but oh my god does that box crash a lot! I never do anything but game on that box.

As for running photoshop, my 1ghz powerbook runs it very fast. So I'm sure that the 970 will just smoke running photoshop.

Quite frankly Apple needs to three things if they wants to compete in the gaming market.
1) Speed is key for gaming, give me a chip that can at least run neck and neck with a 3+ ghz P4. Hopefully the 970 will fix this one *cross fingers*
2) cost and upgrade ability needs to be improved. Frankly, I'd like to see the cube return with a few minor improvements. Give me a processor I can switch out for less then $300. I want one AGP port, and two PCI slots. Two 3.5' drive bays, and one 5 1/4" drive bay. AND it needs to start around $700 on the low end. Apple needs a simple box, that's cheap.
3) More games! Apple needs to get more companies to port games to OSX. Or, get a company or two to get the must have game to only run on OSX.

Even if the 970 does manage to run circles around Intel/AMD chips, the games just aren't there or are still being ported over. I'm still waiting for sim city 4K for OSX. One of these days....

However, I do remember Steve saying after the 17" powerbook was released that good things were coming in the power macs too. So maybe well see the cube I want. (but I'm not hold my breath)

So to sum up my rant, if you really want to game go with the PC. If you're going to be doing mostly photoshop and video stuff you may as well wait for the 970s. Or if you can afford it run both.

Physicsnerd

physicsnerd
Apr 6, 2003, 01:10 AM
Originally posted by G5orbust
well, you cant exactly game on a 600$ PC anyways... unless its an insane bargain.

From:
http://www.dell.com/us/en/dhs/offers/specials_3x_special61.htm

Maximize your productivity with the DimensionTM 2350 desktop, ideal for all of your basic home and home office applications!

* Intel Pentium® 4 Processor 2.0GHz
* 30GB Hard Drive
* 17" (16" viewable, .27dp) E772 Monitor
* FREE Ground (3-5 day) Shipping!
* FREE 1st Bay CD-Burner - Online Only!

$599
After $100 Mail-in Rebate - Online Only!

You can run most any game on that system. Apple needs to lower its prices, period.

kishba
Apr 6, 2003, 01:24 AM
ok, i really hate this debate, but i'm going to jump in anyways.

pc's can be cheaper. loads cheaper. but what good would it do to have a computer that doesn't fit with your personality or goals? i use a mac because it fits my needs. i don't play games. i make web sites and videos and listen to music. i like working with technology that's fun and interesting--not frustrating.

for me the mac works and therefore wins. and, for me, i save up my money to get a decent computer.

pdham
Apr 6, 2003, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by physicsnerd
From:
http://www.dell.com/us/en/dhs/offers/specials_3x_special61.htm

Maximize your productivity with the DimensionTM 2350 desktop, ideal for all of your basic home and home office applications!

* Intel Pentium® 4 Processor 2.0GHz
* 30GB Hard Drive
* 17" (16" viewable, .27dp) E772 Monitor
* FREE Ground (3-5 day) Shipping!
* FREE 1st Bay CD-Burner - Online Only!

$599
After $100 Mail-in Rebate - Online Only!

You can run most any game on that system.
Apple needs to lower its prices, period.

I just went to Dell's webpage and looked at the deal above:
First off the system for the price you quoted actually has a celeron 1.8ghz, to add the 2.oghz P4 you have to click customize.. the price then immediatley jumps to 1,100. Not t mention that it only has 256mb of ram and has an "integrated 3D accelerateor" With that so called video card you wouldnt be able to play virtually any of the games on the market. My roomate has a 1.8 AMD with 512 DDR and the GeForce 4 Titanium and still cant smoothly play some of the newly or soon to be released games.

The bottom line is if you want a PC with everything you get in a Mac you will be paying very close to the same prices.

pdham
Apr 6, 2003, 01:43 AM
To prove my point I did a little configuring:

Apple Power Mac dual 1.42
-512mb exbandable to 2.0 gb
-120 gb Hard drive
- Top of the line ATI 97000 (available for order)
- Superdrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
--$2,699

Dell Precision Workstation 3.0ghz.
(if you are going to comapre a Power Mac to a Dell it cant be the Dell personal Desktop it must be their work orientated one as that is what a Power Mac is)
-512mb exbandable to 4.0gb (but that would cost $3,000)
-120 gb Hard Drive
- ATI Fire GL (<-excellent card)
-DVD-R/CD-RW
-$3,440

(neither have monitors)

Now is the Dell faster? probable a little, and yes the Dell has hyperthreading (but that is one processor pretending to be two... The Mac actually has two), however, both are more then fast enough to run any game, video editting etc. So then you ask yourseld, is OSX worth the slight speed difference..... I beleive I hear a resonding YES!!.

Paul

dricci
Apr 6, 2003, 01:54 AM
PCs are better for computer gaming right now due to the better selection of video cards and the availbility of more games to choose from.

However, you're not going to get a really *good* gaming machine for under $1,000 (unless you make one yourself or find a really killer deal). Most have the integrated video, which won't even work with a lot of games due to the fact that it's just not powerful enough for true 3D acceleration (heck, one of the Microsoft XP screensavers I downloaded required a video card with 16 MB of Video Ram, this excludes 90% of your "low end" PCs right there for a screen saver!)

So, PCs have the Mac beat in gaming right now. After some of the issues I've gone through with my XP Pro Compaq these last few weeks, I could never see myself doing any serious work on a Wintel anytime soon. But if all you want to do is game, then go for it. (I'm saving up for a GameCube, myself)

iJon
Apr 6, 2003, 01:56 AM
this very simple, if you wanna game get a pc, if you dont want to game keep your mac. i have both. pc for games and mac for everything else. but remember, its not as easy as popping a new processor in that athlon mobo. chipsets change and things like that. but for the most part you can, just to let you know if you build a pc. i my pc is coming up on its year birthday, still going good, ill start looking at building a new pc when i have to start looking at the system specs for games again.

iJon

physicsnerd
Apr 6, 2003, 01:57 AM
Originally posted by pdham
I just went to Dell's webpage and looked at the deal above:
First off the system for the price you quoted actually has a celeron 1.8ghz, to add the 2.oghz P4 you have to click customize.. the price then immediatley jumps to 1,100. Not t mention that it only has 256mb of ram and has an "integrated 3D accelerateor" With that so called video card you wouldnt be able to play virtually any of the games on the market. My roomate has a 1.8 AMD with 512 DDR and the GeForce 4 Titanium and still cant smoothly play some of the newly or soon to be released games.

The bottom line is if you want a PC with everything you get in a Mac you will be paying very close to the same prices.

I'm sorry, but I don't think you followed my link. 1st off the system I was talking about only has 128mb ram. Second I went all they way to checkout and it did have a 2.0ghz P4.

I know that dual 1.42 will run circles around this box. But that wasn't my point. My point is simply that you can get a very decent gaming box for between $500 and $1000. It might not run the very top of the line games, but it will run many games just fine. My real beef with apple isn't over midlevel and top of the line pricing, it's over entry level price and software availbility. If you want to compare top of the line systems I'll go with the powermac any day. I love my powerbook, and I do 95% of my work on it. But gaming is in that 5% left to the PC.

physicsnerd

coopdog
Apr 6, 2003, 02:24 PM
My friend spent about $550 on a PC because his ibook is just to slow for most things.

About $650 in parts from NewEgg.com got him
1. A very nice Asus MoBo w/ 6 USB + firewire 8X AGP
2. ATI 9500 W/128 MB His comp was getting 230+ FPS on quake with full detail and full detail and smothing on the ATI preffs

3. 20 gig HD
4. A nice case w/ 450 watts
5. AMD 2200+ 1.8 GHz
6. 512 DDR 2700 Ram
7. CD-R at 52X
8. Floppy
9. Keyboard+Mouse
10. and all the other parts

We then did a test His new PC Vs. his G3 500 ibook

We both loaded a large desktop picture 1280X1024 in Photoshop then did Guasian Blur to the max and both pushed return at the same time. The PC did it almost instantly and it took the ibook about 20 Seconds. Well I couldn't believe the frame rates he was getting! With Full detail in game and on the Card preffs! 230+ FPS is just crazy! Too bad most screens can only display about 70 FPS and our eyes too. Splinter Cell looks 100 times better than xbox and in some games the gameplay actually looks real.

I benched marked my Dad's PC the one i try and game on now and it got less than one FPS on complex 3D. I benched it against a bottom of the line pc w/ 32MB video card and AMD 2000. The Graphics were 10,713% better on the the AMD 2000. :p :p I need a new PC!

GulGnu
Apr 6, 2003, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by pdham
To prove my point I did a little configuring:

Apple Power Mac dual 1.42
-512mb exbandable to 2.0 gb
-120 gb Hard drive
- Top of the line ATI 97000 (available for order)
- Superdrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
--$2,699

Dell Precision Workstation 3.0ghz.
(if you are going to comapre a Power Mac to a Dell it cant be the Dell personal Desktop it must be their work orientated one as that is what a Power Mac is)
-512mb exbandable to 4.0gb (but that would cost $3,000)
-120 gb Hard Drive
- ATI Fire GL (<-excellent card)
-DVD-R/CD-RW
-$3,440


Paul

Let's be honest here - you slapped on a really expensive professional gfx card on the Dell, and left the PowerMac with a consumer one. Not entirely straight, no?


A more reasonable comparison would be this system:

3.06 GHz P4 w/ HT
120 GB HD
512 MB PC1066 RDRAM
Win XP Pro
16 X DVD ROM
4X DVD+RW Drive
ATI Radeon 9700 Pro, 128 MB RAM

Which comes out at 2269$. Quite a difference. Also, when I try to configure the Dual 1.42 to the same spec, I come up with a price of $3,058.00.

Regards / GulGnu

-Stabil som fan!

MacsRgr8
Apr 6, 2003, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by arn
I owned one...

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?threadid=16430&highlight=350mhz

arn

Well, he's (G5orbust) kinda right, you know.
He said "never introduced at 350 Mhz". The G4 was "introduced" at 400 Mhz and up .... well, we all know the rest of the story (tnx Motorola): beginning of end of Apple and speed :(
Was this not a premiere? Having to downgrade the products? Going from 400, 450, 500... to 350, 400, 450 because of production problems?

MacsRgr8
Apr 6, 2003, 04:12 PM
Right, back on topic. (same old story)

Speed per buck: get a PC
Games per buck: get a PC

Grace per buck: get a Mac
Happiness per buck: get a Mac
Better OS per buck: get a Mac
Rumors per buck: get a Mac

TOTAL LOVIN' COMPUTING EXPERIENCE (no, not XP) = Macintosh!

C'est tout.

Macpoops
Apr 6, 2003, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by physicsnerd

2) cost and upgrade ability needs to be improved. Frankly, I'd like to see the cube return with a few minor improvements. Give me a processor I can switch out for less then $300. I want one AGP port, and two PCI slots. Two 3.5' drive bays, and one 5 1/4" drive bay. AND it needs to start around $700 on the low end. Apple needs a simple box, that's cheap.
Physicsnerd

I love these people with these plans that are totally unfesable. First you want a Cube, the cube was designed to be a elegant machine, small footprint like nothing on the market. Then you say you want all this expandablity well from what you describe you want a powermac. Basicly what i am seeing here is a box that A) would lose money and B) Go completely against alot of Apple's design principles.

As for the price of the processor, it's not Apple's problem and they can do little about the price of the chips. Talk to the companies that make the upgrade cards for christsake.

iJon
Apr 6, 2003, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by physicsnerd
I hate to say it, and I love my mac, but if you want to game go with the PC. Mac hardware isn't that much slower then PCs, but there are way more games out there for PC. The down side is that you'll have to go with a microsoft OS, but thats where the market is at. Sigh. I run two boxes, my powerbook and a PIII. When I want to game I always use the PC. I've found that I can keep the PC fairly up to date for about $100 or so a year. They're cheap, but oh my god does that box crash a lot! I never do anything but game on that box.

As for running photoshop, my 1ghz powerbook runs it very fast. So I'm sure that the 970 will just smoke running photoshop.

Quite frankly Apple needs to three things if they wants to compete in the gaming market.
1) Speed is key for gaming, give me a chip that can at least run neck and neck with a 3+ ghz P4. Hopefully the 970 will fix this one *cross fingers*
2) cost and upgrade ability needs to be improved. Frankly, I'd like to see the cube return with a few minor improvements. Give me a processor I can switch out for less then $300. I want one AGP port, and two PCI slots. Two 3.5' drive bays, and one 5 1/4" drive bay. AND it needs to start around $700 on the low end. Apple needs a simple box, that's cheap.
3) More games! Apple needs to get more companies to port games to OSX. Or, get a company or two to get the must have game to only run on OSX.

Even if the 970 does manage to run circles around Intel/AMD chips, the games just aren't there or are still being ported over. I'm still waiting for sim city 4K for OSX. One of these days....

However, I do remember Steve saying after the 17" powerbook was released that good things were coming in the power macs too. So maybe well see the cube I want. (but I'm not hold my breath)

So to sum up my rant, if you really want to game go with the PC. If you're going to be doing mostly photoshop and video stuff you may as well wait for the 970s. Or if you can afford it run both.

Physicsnerd
get a shuttle if you want all if that stuff.

iJon

G5orbust
Apr 6, 2003, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by physicsnerd
From:
http://www.dell.com/us/en/dhs/offers/specials_3x_special61.htm

Maximize your productivity with the DimensionTM 2350 desktop, ideal for all of your basic home and home office applications!

* Intel Pentium® 4 Processor 2.0GHz
* 30GB Hard Drive
* 17" (16" viewable, .27dp) E772 Monitor
* FREE Ground (3-5 day) Shipping!
* FREE 1st Bay CD-Burner - Online Only!

$599
After $100 Mail-in Rebate - Online Only!

You can run most any game on that system. Apple needs to lower its prices, period.

hmm... you say you can run games on that rig. Integrated graphics have a tough time with that. I mean, if you are running Starcraft or playing the Sims, thats perfectly legit. But, we are talking real games here. No sissy (not starcraft; but the sims and the like) games like that. We speak of frame rate busters like UT2k3, Unreal 2, Sim City 4 (believe it or not, it requires a high performence PC to run), Max Payne and games of that nature. Lets see you run Windows XP + a game stealing the max possible memory your system can handle and you are seeing a substantial slow down. You cant even run the shaders in those games w/o a good, dedicated graphics chip. Lets see you buy that 599$ Dell and run any decent game. You'll see then that your system will soon become like molassas going uphill instead of like water flowing down a waterfall in terms of speed.

Sorry, but your arguement is flawed.

etoiles
Apr 6, 2003, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by G5orbust
Sorry, but your arguement is flawed.

I think that is a bit harsh. I am not sure what kind of memory and AGP this system has, but I guess you should be able to get at least 256mb of ram and a nice graphics card (GForce4 128m) for about $200...which should do the job for most games.

AndyNotts
May 2, 2003, 05:25 AM
I don't get this if you want to game buy a console, they are a damn sight cheaper smaller quieter and have all the games you could want. If you want a computer then yeah get a mac. If you get a shop bought PC and WinXP says 'Unmountable Boot Volume' you've lost everything on the HDD. Yes the recovery console can fix it but OEM machines generally don't have the recovery console.

caveman_uk
May 2, 2003, 06:22 AM
Originally posted by AndyNotts
I don't get this if you want to game buy a console, they are a damn sight cheaper smaller quieter and have all the games you could want. If you want a computer then yeah get a mac. If you get a shop bought PC and WinXP says 'Unmountable Boot Volume' you've lost everything on the HDD. Yes the recovery console can fix it but OEM machines generally don't have the recovery console.
Agreed. Show me a PC that costs £129 (about $200 - the UK price of an Xbox) that can play as many decent games. Sure it's behind the curve on a top gaming rig but a graphics card for one of those costs more than a xbox.

CmdrLaForge
May 2, 2003, 06:27 AM
Use Macs for work and Playstation for gaming !

jes13
May 2, 2003, 07:22 AM
Think About it Coop - do you like Windows? (I HATE Windows!)

I 'switched' in January.

Sure all computers have some kind of 'problems' but I LOVE my Mac (G-4 Desktop)....

But then again, I'm not 'into' games, thou I'd love to have a Pinball game and I do have Solitare and I'm going to buy the Mahjong (that's as far as I'd go)...

Good luck!:rolleyes:

h'biki
May 2, 2003, 07:48 AM
Originally posted by coopdog
I have a Mac G4 350 running Jag and it is bad for any kinda gaming, photoshop and it was murder tring to edit an hour and half of video a few weeks ago.
Can you please advise me on what to do?

Weird. I edited video on my *G3*/350 for 3 years and it was fine for long form projects. Same as the dual G4/450 I used at my work until recently (when it was replaced with a dual 1.4... sweet). I still use the G3/350 as a log and capture machine. Yes, render times are a bitch, but you just work around them. Render times are always a bitch. The G3 isn't good for Photoshop 7 but the G4/450 was and is. I don't know what your problem is... lack of ram? impatience?

Yes, the PCs speed advantage does make them faster at rendering..

But Final Cut Pro kicks serious ass. As does Shake.

I think you need to work out where your priorities lie. If you want to get into video seriously, I would stick with the mac and wait it out until the 970s (dual altivec pipe line will make FCP4 shine). If you wanna concentrate on gaming, get your PC and keep on upgrading it and upgrading it and upgrading it and upgrading it and upgrading it so you can the greatest and latest games.

Or you could buy an X Box or a PS2 in the meantime, get a great game machine for a good price and then wait it out a bit more for the 970 G4s and get the best of both worlds.

hvfsl
May 2, 2003, 08:16 AM
People say get an Xbox/Ps2/GC for games and a Mac for everything else, but this is not always the best thing to do. PCs are still faster at things like video editing and the PC has some really good games that are not on the consoles e.g. Command and Conquer: Generals. The only console that has unique games is the GameCube.

kaltsasa
May 2, 2003, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by hvfsl
People say get an Xbox/Ps2/GC for games and a Mac for everything else, but this is not always the best thing to do. PCs are still faster at things like video editing and the PC has some really good games that are not on the consoles e.g. Command and Conquer: Generals. The only console that has unique games is the GameCube.


Video editing is faster on a PC my butt, it may render faster, but I can fly through edits with FCP way faster than any program on the PC. Problem with all the PC programs is they don't integrate all the stuff right into one program. With the PC your always running Boris FX or something takeing up more time. I can usually do almost all the compositing I need to do right in FCP. For Reference I am a Communications Student and I do a "wee" bit of editing.

If you are simply concerned with pure speed, the PC will be your choice no matter what we say here. However if you want to get more work done in less time, you know what your choice is.

lmalave
May 2, 2003, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by G5orbust
well, you cant exactly game on a 600$ PC anyways... unless its an insane bargain.

Oh yes you can. If you build it yourself, $600 is not a problem. Will you have the latest and greatest $400 video card? No. But you can get one that's one generation behind that for $150 or less and that'll probably be your biggest expense. Check out newegg.com to see just how low you can go!

NavyIntel007
May 2, 2003, 09:06 AM
When you can get an Xbox, PS2 or Gamecube for under $200 each I really don't see the point of buying a PC just for gaming. $600 for hardware you aren't really going to use seems like a massive waste of money when you could get all three gaming systems for that price or one system with at least 8 games.

Cubeboy
May 2, 2003, 11:58 AM
This has already been discussed before, a dual G4 1.25 running FCP is about even with a single 3.06 ghz P4 running Aftereffects. A 3.06 ghz P4 system running Combustion will beat both a 1.25 ghz FW800 as well as the 1.42 ghz FW800. Really, if you want a video editing pc, you should go with a dual Xeon system, for 2400 dollars, you can get a dual Xeon 2.4 ghz system which when running combustion will leave the 1.42 ghz "Ultimate" configuration in the dusts. The advantages of the pc are performance, price, and upgradability. The benefits of a mac are reliability, support, and OS.

An Xbox uses a 733 mhz P3 processor a Geforce3 video card and has 64 mb of ram. For less than 200 dollars, you could get a better configured pc.

PC's can run more much more demanding games and pretty much have their own niche of games, hardcore simulators are exclusively on the pc, as are strategy and empire building games, hardcore roleplaying games (ie D&D), adventure/puzzle games, and various others that don't fit these categories (wall street trader). Many of the best first person shooters are on pc as well as most of the online games. If you look at the most popular games on the PC, almost none of them are available on a console. Another advantage of the pc is the community, their are no custom maps, or modifications (like Counterstrike), or editors, or clans, in the console, in the best scenario, all you end up with is a few guys playing a session together on map the the developers included.

I love my powermac (quicksilver) because of it's reliability, OS, and aethestics, it's fast enough to run all my apps, beautiful, and crashes extremely rarely. However I'm not going to be ignorant and close myself to the outside world as some have done. An educated consumer is the best consumer.

yzedf
May 2, 2003, 04:29 PM
*sigh*

Ultimate Gaming Machine (Dell)

Dimension XPS Series

P4 3GHz 800MHz bus
512MB Dual Channel DDR SDRAM at 400MHz
ATi Radeon 9800 TV-out and DVI (128MB)
Sound Blaster Audigy 2 with DVD Audio
120GB UATA 100 7200rpm hdd
16x DVD-Rom drive
48x/24x/48x CD-RW drive
3.5" floppy
no modem
integrated Intel Pro 10/100 NIC
19.0" CRT
HK-395 speakers with sub
Dell keyboard / 2 button scroll wheel mouse
XP Home
NO PRODUCTIVITY SOFTWARE

$2.118.00

This is the stock configuration!

You can get 2GB RAM, 9800 PRO, 240GB RAID 0 hdd setup, 4x dvd burner drive etc etc etc.

This box rivals the Mac at the 1.42 GHz dual proc that goes for $2,699.00 without monitor, and with the 9000 vid card.

And I can't remember the last major release game that I wanted (FPS or RPG or whatever) that did not come out first for the PC. $2,118.00 gets you a machine that will be a good all purpose box for at least 5 years, and a good gaming box until everyone starts using the yet to be released DOOM 3 graphics engine (even then, upgrade the vid card and you are fine).

Mac's are still at the stage where the proc (or 2 proc's) are what determines how fast a game will run. That is sad.

macktheknife
May 2, 2003, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by yzedf
*sigh*

$2.118.00

This is the stock configuration!

You can get 2GB RAM, 9800 PRO, 240GB RAID 0 hdd setup, 4x dvd burner drive etc etc etc.

This box rivals the Mac at the 1.42 GHz dual proc that goes for $2,699.00 without monitor, and with the 9000 vid card.

And I can't remember the last major release game that I wanted (FPS or RPG or whatever) that did not come out first for the PC. $2,118.00 gets you a machine that will be a good all purpose box for at least 5 years, and a good gaming box until everyone starts using the yet to be released DOOM 3 graphics engine (even then, upgrade the vid card and you are fine).

Mac's are still at the stage where the proc (or 2 proc's) are what determines how fast a game will run. That is sad.

You're right on target, yzedf. For a reasonable amount of cash, you can get a pretty decent PC that will do almost anything you need or want. Assuming that a consumer is comparing this Dell system with an Apple PowerMac, he or she will have to find reasons to justify paying more for the latter.

The typical Mac partisan will respond that gaming isn't important, that it's about the overall "experience", that their machines look better, etc. But I think Macusers have to ask themselves several hard questions. Mac OS X is a great OS, but is it really worth the $500 differential in this case? This is not even counting the absence of a monitor or ATI Radeon 9800. And this is not even counting the difference in sheer speed (let's not talk about the "Megahertz Myth"--can you really tell me that a P4 3 GHz is slower than the 1.42 G4 DP?).

Also, the "get a console for gaming" retorts make little sense. Some games work better on a computer than a console. And remember that a computer should be used for whatever we want. We don't tell people who want to watch movies on their computers to buy a TV instead. We don't tell people who want to listen to music on their computers to buy a stereo instead.

rotlex
May 5, 2003, 07:31 AM
This has been one of my biggest "issues" in my want to "switch". (Other than waiting it out to see what happens with the new procs, see post in the switching area). I want the Mac for SO many reasons, the beauty, the reliability the OS, (Unix based) etc. etc., but I'm having a hard time getting over this as well:

Truly ultimate gaming system:

Alienware Area 51 (I currently own a 4 year old Alienware):

P4 3.0Ghz, 800Mhz FSB
1GB PC3200 Ram
200GB Western Digital Caviar HDD
Pioneer A05 DVD-R
2nd DVD player
ATI Radeon 9800 Pro, 128MB Video
AlienIce Video Cooling system
Sound Blaster Audigy 2 6.1
Intel Gigabit Ethernet
MS Keyboard, Mouse etc. etc.
All the usual stuff built in:

Price: $2700.00 out the door with free shipping.

I know in my heart this thing will SCREAM through anything I can throw at it, plus it has perhaps the coolest looking case I have ever seen, LOL. Also, just as an example, Alienware reliability and reputation are top notch. Trust me, I'm not trying to get into any debates here, I really do want to move to a Mac, but this pricing is making it VERY difficult to keep my head in that direction.

Anywho, just my 2 cents and some early morning ramblings.

iJon
May 5, 2003, 07:56 AM
Originally posted by rotlex
This has been one of my biggest "issues" in my want to "switch". (Other than waiting it out to see what happens with the new procs, see post in the switching area). I want the Mac for SO many reasons, the beauty, the reliability the OS, (Unix based) etc. etc., but I'm having a hard time getting over this as well:

Truly ultimate gaming system:

Alienware Area 51 (I currently own a 4 year old Alienware):

P4 3.0Ghz, 800Mhz FSB
1GB PC3200 Ram
200GB Western Digital Caviar HDD
Pioneer A05 DVD-R
2nd DVD player
ATI Radeon 9800 Pro, 128MB Video
AlienIce Video Cooling system
Sound Blaster Audigy 2 6.1
Intel Gigabit Ethernet
MS Keyboard, Mouse etc. etc.
All the usual stuff built in:

Price: $2700.00 out the door with free shipping.

I know in my heart this thing will SCREAM through anything I can throw at it, plus it has perhaps the coolest looking case I have ever seen, LOL. Also, just as an example, Alienware reliability and reputation are top notch. Trust me, I'm not trying to get into any debates here, I really do want to move to a Mac, but this pricing is making it VERY difficult to keep my head in that direction.

Anywho, just my 2 cents and some early morning ramblings.
what do you want to do with a computer, answer that first before we talk about pricing and types of computers.

iJon

rotlex
May 5, 2003, 08:23 AM
Originally posted by iJon
what do you want to do with a computer, answer that first before we talk about pricing and types of computers.

iJon

Honestly, I'm looking for many things. Most of my time now is spent with digital photography, digital video editing, web page design and of course, internet surfing e-mail etc. etc.

I'm generally an avid gamer, although with the birth of my daughter 9 months ago, I'm finding little time for it. Most of my gaming is now done on an X-Box as the wife and I find it easier to sit on the couch and play while our little darling sleeps in one our laps. :)

So, I guess I'm not really looking for a new gaming machine, but rather something I can use heavily for the above mentioned items. Like I said, I'm really not looking to knock either side, I'm just having a really tough time spending close to, or more than, 3K for a PowerMac that APPEARS to a slower machine.

Also, as stated above, my reasons for WANTING the Mac are many, but the primary thing is the OS. I've been waiting a long time for something that will run a Unix based OS, that can also run the latest applications. I've run Linux quite a bit, primarily the Red Hat and Debian flavors, and while I love them, they are just not practical at this point from an application standpoint. i.e. I need Photoshop, a decent Video editor and access to my existing hardware. (Memory stick readers, peripherals etc. etc. that Linux just doesn't support yet. At least at a reasonable usability level).

I still think I'm going to wait and see what appears in June, but I'm also hoping that my hopes aren't bashed by either no new news, or prices out of the stratosphere.

iJon
May 5, 2003, 08:39 AM
Originally posted by rotlex
Honestly, I'm looking for many things. Most of my time now is spent with digital photography, digital video editing, web page design and of course, internet surfing e-mail etc. etc.

I'm generally an avid gamer, although with the birth of my daughter 9 months ago, I'm finding little time for it. Most of my gaming is now done on an X-Box as the wife and I find it easier to sit on the couch and play while our little darling sleeps in one our laps. :)

So, I guess I'm not really looking for a new gaming machine, but rather something I can use heavily for the above mentioned items. Like I said, I'm really not looking to knock either side, I'm just having a really tough time spending close to, or more than, 3K for a PowerMac that APPEARS to a slower machine.

Also, as stated above, my reasons for WANTING the Mac are many, but the primary thing is the OS. I've been waiting a long time for something that will run a Unix based OS, that can also run the latest applications. I've run Linux quite a bit, primarily the Red Hat and Debian flavors, and while I love them, they are just not practical at this point from an application standpoint. i.e. I need Photoshop, a decent Video editor and access to my existing hardware. (Memory stick readers, peripherals etc. etc. that Linux just doesn't support yet. At least at a reasonable usability level).

I still think I'm going to wait and see what appears in June, but I'm also hoping that my hopes aren't bashed by either no new news, or prices out of the stratosphere.
ok, i have many friends like you. go they go shopping for these badass machines when its not even in their field. we will start off first with photograhy. photoshop loves a mac to work on , plus iphoto is great if you are gonna be taking pictures of your baby girl and making book, putting them on a web page and things like that. now to digital video. Final Cut Pro is the #1 video editing software out there, plus you ahve the option of final cut express for 700 dollars less, or the option of imovie, which is by far the best free editor i have ever used. with safari and mail it just makes it so much easier, i never browse on my pc just because its such a hassle and not a fun enviroment to work on. games will be better on a pc, but the way i look at it is you can get a gamecube, ps2, and an xbox for all less than a good gaming macine, it just depends if the games you play are for console or not. from what you have told me a powermac would do or even an imac. but from what you have told me, the alienware would come with stuff you would probably never use.. Audigy 2 Platinum, im a gamer and i dont even use mine, cant even tell a difference sometimes.

iJon

rundevilrun
May 5, 2003, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by rotlex
Honestly, I'm looking for many things. Most of my time now is spent with digital photography, digital video editing, web page design and of course, internet surfing e-mail etc. etc.

I'm generally an avid gamer, although with the birth of my daughter 9 months ago, I'm finding little time for it. Most of my gaming is now done on an X-Box as the wife and I find it easier to sit on the couch and play while our little darling sleeps in one our laps. :)


That sounds a lot like what I do, I have a dual 1GHz PowerMac, a 17" Powerbook, and a 2.5GHz P4. I will tell you right now that a Mac is what you want, especially with a 9month old child. Before I got my Macs I could never really get started with photography or video because windows would always keep doing some dumb thing and I'd have to fix it first. For example yesterday for no apparent reason the sound on the pc stopped working and I had to reboot. (This is windows xp by the way) The Macs have been very maintenance free and have given me time to actually do photo and video stuff. Sure the pc may be faster at some stuff but I don't notice that, what I do notice is windows is horrible. :)