Is safari leading the way to be innovate?

[chewbaccapits]

So far, Safari is catching up with the rest...We just got tabbed browsing and auto-filll, two features that should have been implemented in the first place...My question now is....What can Apple do to make this browser truly innovative? Are they holding back until the BETA expires for some real new features?

[NavyIntel007]

What new features are you suggesting? I can't think of any new features I'd want.

[P-Worm]

Originally posted by NavyIntel007
What new features are you suggesting? I can't think of any new features I'd want.

Well, right there is the problem. If we already know what we want, it isn't innovative anymore. Oh well. All i know is that Apple's good at innovating and I'll just have to wait to see how things like browsers get better. Snap back is cool, I use it a lot.

All they need is an idea...

P-Worm

[arn]

I don't think it's about innovation...

I think it's about being more independant... not depending on Microsoft for their browser to get faster/better

arn

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by arn
I don't think it's about innovation...

I think it's about being more independant... not depending on Microsoft for their browser to get faster/better

arn

i think it's a combination... i think their motivation is probably the independence. but they know that to really stand out they'll have to innovate. i think the snapback is definitely a start

i don't expect anything groundbreaking. but i wouldn't be surprised to see some interesting things...

[MrMacMan]

I'd like to see less random bugs...

like the forum bugs are gone one version, the next THERE BACK!

wtf?

[chewbaccapits]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
i think their motivation is probably the independence. but they know that to really stand out they'll have to innovate.

I totally agree. Look at the thread that announced the safari beta, many bitched and complained that Safari is still not as good as the others. While its not without merit, its still needs bugs fixed and it can always use a speed boost. But,I believe for Safari to be considered a success, it needs features that are innovative and enrich the mac experience. With that written, I would love to see the browser intergrated with iApps and I would love to see what rendezvous can do within the browser.

[MacBandit]

Having a browser that uses tabs and autofill is innovative. It must be look at all the other browsers available none of them have both features.

[alset]

Safari fans will hate me for saying this, but the interface could use a lot of work. It still makes me sick.

Yes, GUI is a place for innovation! What do you think Aqua is?

Dan

[irmongoose]

How about the Snapback feature? Or the Google search bar in the browser itself? Everyone seems to have forgotten about that....



irmongoose

[wsteineker]

I'd just like to be able to post images properly to my eBay auctions. I know it's not terribly innovative or anything, but it would sure help a lot of folks out.

[mac15]

Originally posted by irmongoose
How about the Snapback feature? Or the Google search bar in the browser itself? Everyone seems to have forgotten about that....



irmongoose

Google its hardly an innovation, its been in phoenix, snapback is kinda lame, I never use it.

Its not really innovative, its interesting but not innovative. Most of the stuff in safari have been or are in browsers today.

[tazo]

Originally posted by MacBandit
Having a browser that uses tabs and autofill is innovative. It must be look at all the other browsers available none of them have both features.

ever heard of Mozilla? Mozilla on pc with both those features has been available for a while.

[macmax]

i would like a small button that when touched would give me some cash, hehehhehe

[macmax]

Originally posted by tazo
ever heard of Mozilla? Mozilla on pc with both those features has been available for a while.

i have mozilla on my sisters pc, it doesn't have tabs

[benixau]

safari may not be innovative YET.

But as has been mentioned. Apple is trying not to make a browser that is good but that is the best. They are putting in the good parts of everyones browser into an effecient package that is fast and light.
In my opinion they should have a preference for turning on or off the metal interface.
For the programmers out there it just means that when teh nib loads it checks the preference and then sets its textured window property based on that.

Overall safari is the best browser out there for the mac. Yes it has its bugs. But its features more than make up for that.
Also, IE can't render my website properly, safari can. My site is HTML 3 compliant. Not bad for a beta browser compared to a version 5.x competitor eh ....

[NavyIntel007]

I've got an idea. Instead of the search bar just used with Google, maybe it could use different sites too with some degree of user enhancability. For instance, you pull down the scroll down menu and click Amazon.com and then search for an item there rather than having to go on the site and then search. Plus if the user could add more search engines or different searchable sites it would be really useful.

[Jaykay]

Originally posted by NavyIntel007
I've got an idea. Instead of the search bar just used with Google, maybe it could use different sites too with some degree of user enhancability. For instance, you pull down the scroll down menu and click Amazon.com and then search for an item there rather than having to go on the site and then search. Plus if the user could add more search engines or different searchable sites it would be really useful.

Something like a built in sherlock (old one) with lots of plugins rh?

[mac15]

Originally posted by Jaykay
Something like a built in sherlock (old one) with lots of plugins rh?

Being able to use the google bar for any site you want, say even the macrumors.com site.

see thats innovation, although I'm sure something like would be managable with a .plist hack? any takers? But if it can't be done with a .plist hack then its probably in the Safari Code

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by tazo
ever heard of Mozilla? Mozilla on pc with both those features has been available for a while.

That may be so but that's not on a Mac is it? I was specifically comparring Safari to other Mac browsers.

[chewbaccapits]

Originally posted by NavyIntel007
I've got an idea. Instead of the search bar just used with Google, maybe it could use different sites too with some degree of user enhancability. For instance, you pull down the scroll down menu and click Amazon.com and then search for an item there rather than having to go on the site and then search. Plus if the user could add more search engines or different searchable sites it would be really useful.


That sounds great!

[yzedf]

Originally posted by macmax
i have mozilla on my sisters pc, it doesn't have tabs
What version? Tabs have been since about 0.98 or so...

@$^@#$^$&@%$&(@#&

[GregA]

Originally posted by NavyIntel007
I've got an idea. Instead of the search bar just used with Google, maybe it could use different sites too with some degree of user enhancability. For instance, you pull down the scroll down menu and click Amazon.com and then search for an item there rather than having to go on the site and then search. Plus if the user could add more search engines or different searchable sites it would be really useful.

Sounds good. (I'd like Google Australia instead of Google to start with)

Also how about a group of search engines under a heading? Then when you do a search it opens a tab for each search engine you've chosen.

Just an idea.
Greg
(ps. Shouldn't the close button on the tabs be coloured Red?)

[richie]

Innovation? I thought, myself, that the Bookmarks management system was that. It took a step back from tradition and invites a new way to manipulate them, or at least, I hadn't seen that concept applied to bookmarks before. It's changed my way of browsing - all my frequently used bookmarks are right there in the bookmarks bar, divided into categories. I'd barely noticed the bookmarks bar on other browsers. I sort my bookmarks so much more quickly now that I can just drag and drop them round in a window that's one click away.. nice stuff :)

[rainman::|:|]

personally, i'd say Safari is about finished in terms of features, now the bugs need to get ironed out for that perfect finished app that will be fabulous :) For instance, clicking "stop" during page loading needs to be instantanous, the cursor needs to stay put when a page finishes loading (will drop out of location or search bar), cookies need some work...

There's just not a great deal of innovation that can be done here. But anything drastic Apple might have up their sleeves will wait until the standard Safari 1.0 is perfected...

pnw

[bousozoku]

Safari and innovation don't belong in the same sentence.

Since when has adapting someone else's work to serve been innovative?

Safari is a tool and a slap in the face. Well, maybe that is a little innovative. :)

[bennetsaysargh]

a browser can't have everything. i mean this especially when i say that it IS STILL A BETA! you people are bashing safari for not being innovative. that is true. it still also has a little catching up to do.but there is room for innovation down the line. you can't really innovate a browser because it is a browser.

when you people say innovations are needed, what are you talking about?

[joker2]

In terms of catching up -- I'd like to see natively in Safari (without installing any 3rd party enhancers)
- I'd like to be able to see the certificate on self-certified secure webpages... (give me a button to view it)
- I'd like an option to tell a website that I'm using their "preferred" Windows IE $latestversion when any other response is "locked out" of the site due to them being lazy. This feature can be buried deep in a preference pane... and you can specify a list of sites you want this "little white lie" told to.

Interface enhancements:
- Radio-button choice of brushed metal or Aqua or anything else that comes down the Apple pipeline.
- The 'x' button on the tabs -- shouldn't it be red when on the current tab? ... and less touchy. I click to close one and occasionally end up closing two if the mouse pointer is still over the space.
- When selecting from the History menu, give an option to open the page in a new tab or window.
- Add an option to the contextual menu - open this (image / source / link) in (specified default application)?
- An optional dialog box that can be turned on and off in the preferences: "The window you are closing has multiple tabs. Are you sure you want to close ALL of them now?"

In terms of innovation:
- I second the integration of sherlock-like features into the search box ... Google is nice, but not always what I want to search.

With this revision, I have finally made Safari my browser of choice, beating out Mozilla, Netscape and IE. I still keep them around for compatibility reasons, though they're being used less and less.

[nuckinfutz]

It's a Browser.


How much Innovation do we really need. The idea is to keep Safari small and as Bloatfree as possible. I like my Browers quick and memory efficient. Apple my add Rendezvous for some networking functions but I don't think you're going see Major features added that the competition hasn't thought of. I'm just thankful that Apple now has a Browser and it's one less Microsoft product needed.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by bousozoku
Since when has adapting someone else's work to serve been innovative? OS X?

[bennetsaysargh]

im not trying to be smart, but i just wanna know how os x is taking someone else's work, thanks if there is an explanation.

[wsteineker]

Originally posted by bennetsaysargh
im not trying to be smart, but i just wanna know how os x is taking someone else's work, thanks if there is an explanation.

Umm...it's NextStep. I mean it's not like Apple didn't just purchase their new "revolutionary" OS or anything. ;)

[bousozoku]

Mac OS X is a conglomeration of FreeBSD, NeXTStep, various GNU projects, and Mac OS. Safari is mostly the Konqueror browser with a thin layer on the outside.

Apple owns Mac OS and NeXTStep but has carefully leveraged other people's work to contribute to their own. It's not stealing, and I consider it clever, but it's hardly innovative.

[tazo]

Originally posted by macmax
i have mozilla on my sisters pc, it doesn't have tabs

fine, then opera has all those features

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by tazo
fine, then opera has all those features mozilla has tabs. it has for several .x versions now.

[tazo]

Originally posted by Shadowfax
mozilla has tabs. it has for several .x versions now.

i know, but i dont care to argue online :D

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by tazo
i know, but i dont care to argue online :D sorry, that begs the question--why the heck are you even here? :p

[bennetsaysargh]

Originally posted by tazo
i know, but i dont care to argue online :D

the whoole reason i joined these forums was to argues (in a polite way), and discuss about macs, and other stuff. you have to be able to argue.

[nuckinfutz]

Originally posted by bousozoku
Mac OS X is a conglomeration of FreeBSD, NeXTStep, various GNU projects, and Mac OS. Safari is mostly the Konqueror browser with a thin layer on the outside.

Apple owns Mac OS and NeXTStep but has carefully leveraged other people's work to contribute to their own. It's not stealing, and I consider it clever, but it's hardly innovative.

Hardly Innovative? That's subjective. You may feel it's not innovative but I do. The Definition of Innovate according to dictionary.com


To begin or introduce (something new) for or as if for the first time.


v. intr.

To begin or introduce something new.

To Innovate can mean developing something entirely new it can also mean ehancing a current product with "Innovative" ideas. I happen to think Safari is Innovative. Frankly I grow weary of the constant battles between people on what's innovative or not. It's all a matter of personal preference.

[bousozoku]

Originally posted by nuckinfutz
Hardly Innovative? That's subjective. You may feel it's not innovative but I do. The Definition of Innovate according to dictionary.com

To Innovate can mean developing something entirely new it can also mean ehancing a current product with "Innovative" ideas. I happen to think Safari is Innovative. Frankly I grow weary of the constant battles between people on what's innovative or not. It's all a matter of personal preference.

Interesting that you quote dictionary.com and then, discard its definition, because it doesn't fit your need.

If you want to believe that it's innovative, fine, feel free. If you don't want to be involved in the "constant battles", don't participate. It might save you a headache or two, or let you sleep better. :)

[shadowfax]

americans, huh? damned subjectivists! everything has to be democratic. no wrong answer!

lol, i was kidding, really...
...i'll take up nuckinfutz' broken flag. 2. To change or alter by introducing something new; to remodel; to revolutionize. [Archaic] --Burton. then, hmm, we have some etymology:[French innover, from Old French, from Latin innovare, innovat-, to renew _: in-, intensive pref.; see in-2 + novre, to make new (from novus, new. See newo- in Indo-European Roots).]the innovare, from latin, is to renew. one can extrapolate and still innovate. one can even extrapolate severely and still innovate. you could call it renovation, for it certainly is, but renovation contains within it an aspect of innovation. Safari, without question, has introduced some new ideas to the browsing environment--i wouldn't go so far as to say that they have renewed the web experience, but i don't think something has to utterly redefine that which it pertains to to be considered innovative. you will never get around the fact that innovation in computers will not be pure innovation like, say, the creation of TV or the PC (which are admittedly of dubious purity, depending on your definition). Safari is designed to introduce minor innovations into the browsing experience, such as the bookmarking structure or "snap-back." it also has the goal of incorporating some of apple's already-existing design innovations into the design of the browser.

anyways, i don't fully agree with the above, but i will say, bousozoku, i think you are being pretty harsh.

[bousozoku]

Originally posted by Shadowfax
americans, huh? damned subjectivists! everything has to be democratic. no wrong answer!

lol, i was kidding, really...
...i'll take up nuckinfutz' broken flag. then, hmm, we have some etymology:the innovare, from latin, is to renew. one can extrapolate and still innovate. one can even extrapolate severely and still innovate. you could call it renovation, for it certainly is, but renovation contains within it an aspect of innovation. Safari, without question, has introduced some new ideas to the browsing environment--i wouldn't go so far as to say that they have renewed the web experience, but i don't think something has to utterly redefine that which it pertains to to be considered innovative. you will never get around the fact that innovation in computers will not be pure innovation like, say, the creation of TV or the PC (which are admittedly of dubious purity, depending on your definition). Safari is designed to introduce minor innovations into the browsing experience, such as the bookmarking structure or "snap-back." it also has the goal of incorporating some of apple's already-existing design innovations into the design of the browser.

anyways, i don't fully agree with the above, but i will say, bousozoku, i think you are being pretty harsh.

As much as I believe that Apple have done a brilliant job with the software, I won't agree to much of it being innovative.

NeXT was innovative, when it was new, and Mac OS, when it was new, was innovative. Many of the things introduced are still quite effective so many years later.

I don't think anyone's flag is broken. I would certainly hope that he wouldn't be hurt because of what I said. I think it's great to be a cheerleader, but I'm not going to be one. :)

[nuckinfutz]

Good comments. It's always good to look at things from different angles.

With Computing really the "Devil is in the Details" Like those BASF commercials. Apple might make make the product..they make the product better.

Much of what OSX is cobbled together. But it does contain enough changes to warrant to "innovation" tag. The Window Server along is pretty amazing Tech the way it composits the UI on the fly. Slow right now but in 3 years or less speed won't be the issue.

Safari is based primarily on Konqueror but the Innovation is the flexibility and extensibilty of Webcore.

Looking at a comparison sheet between Windows and OSX would not tell you much about how each UI "feels" In many areas Apple seems to perceive what the user will need to do next. I expect this to improve with future OSX versions.

[GregA]

Originally posted by Shadowfax
Safari is designed to introduce minor innovations into the browsing experience, such as the bookmarking structure or "snap-back." it also has the goal of incorporating some of apple's already-existing design innovations into the design of the browser.

What would be a major innovation anyway? When the Mac came out, ease-of-use became synonymous with menus, mice, & icons.

The web lost menus though. Why are the menus I have now for the web browser (Safari), and not for the website (MacRumors)?

What would happen if a website/application used standard Mac (or Windows) menus? Would that be innovation? Or just adding menus to a website/application?

I guess this is part question, part idea.
I'd like to just click File menu/Print on my banking site and have it automatically load and print the "print friendly" receipt. Why not have a "MacRumors" menu next to the Apple menu? Click "Preferences" would adjust your setup for that website. File/Attach to add files to a post. And so on.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by GregAussie
What would be a major innovation anyway? When the Mac came out, ease-of-use became synonymous with menus, mice, & icons.

The web lost menus though. Why are the menus I have now for the web browser (Safari), and not for the website (MacRumors)?

What would happen if a website/application used standard Mac (or Windows) menus? Would that be innovation? Or just adding menus to a website/application?

I guess this is part question, part idea.
I'd like to just click File menu/Print on my banking site and have it automatically load and print the "print friendly" receipt. Why not have a "MacRumors" menu next to the Apple menu? Click "Preferences" would adjust your setup for that website. File/Attach to add files to a post. And so on. that wouldn't be innovative if it took over though. that would be like "hey, we're kicking out you freaking asses who are too stupid to format a page in html. now you have to read a carbon/java book on web standards before you can get within a mile of a web server! mwahahahaha!"

ok, not quite like that, but it would transform the web into a much more sophisticated place that was less inclusive of normal, technically un-apt people

[bousozoku]

Originally posted by Shadowfax
that wouldn't be innovative if it took over though. that would be like "hey, we're kicking out you freaking asses who are too stupid to format a page in html. now you have to read a carbon/java book on web standards before you can get within a mile of a web server! mwahahahaha!"

ok, not quite like that, but it would transform the web into a much more sophisticated place that was less inclusive of normal, technically un-apt people

Would it be so terrible to render HTML into a spatial format? This was once done for disk storage in Apple's Project X/Hot Cocoa but it was rather convoluted. Why not a view like recent t.v. weather map technology?

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by bousozoku
Would it be so terrible to render HTML into a spatial format? This was once done for disk storage in Apple's Project X/Hot Cocoa but it was rather convoluted. Why not a view like recent t.v. weather map technology? lol, buddy, i am way out of my league with you, you know. i was just making conversation; i suppose it probably wouldn't be much trouble to do an open standard format that provided for sites to have their own menus natively... isn't stuff like CSS a step in this direction?

i just don't see it happening, as many standards as there are out there.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by bousozoku
Mac OS X is a conglomeration of FreeBSD, NeXTStep, various GNU projects, and Mac OS. Safari is mostly the Konqueror browser with a thin layer on the outside.


But in a way you're defeating your own argument since it's Apples work with the open source community and the development team for KHTML that is so innovative. Before Apple the KHTML had barely gotten a start now it's turned into a full fledged browser to rival or beat any browser out there. The true innovation though as I stated is the working relationsip between the open source community, Apple, and the KHTML developers.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by MacBandit
But in a way you're defeating your own argument since it's Apples work with the open source community and the development team for KHTML that is so innovative. Before Apple the KHTML had barely gotten a start now it's turned into a full fledged browser to rival or beat any browser out there. The true innovation though as I stated is the working relationsip between the open source community, Apple, and the KHTML developers. he has going for him that apple has been a little niggard about sharing its innovations with the open source community, though dave hyatt would prrobably disagree strongly.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by Shadowfax
he has going for him that apple has been a little niggard about sharing its innovations with the open source community, though dave hyatt would prrobably disagree strongly.

Read the latest MacAddict the guy that represents the KHTML group came across as being very excited with the work and progress from Apple.

[benixau]

they are excited because that means that KHTML may actually become a good remdering engine. It was good for some things but generally not very much very well. You still needed NS by your side. Now, well KHTML is letting me view MR, VT, AusPUG etc as if it were IE.
Pretty good.

AND - it is the only browser to have made MSN Messenger NOT use IE as its default for viewing email. OW, NS, Chime .. oops .. Camino - no other broswer would change that setting. IMO that is the best innovation of all - great wrok apple :D

[bousozoku]

Originally posted by MacBandit
But in a way you're defeating your own argument since it's Apples work with the open source community and the development team for KHTML that is so innovative. Before Apple the KHTML had barely gotten a start now it's turned into a full fledged browser to rival or beat any browser out there. The true innovation though as I stated is the working relationsip between the open source community, Apple, and the KHTML developers.

Konqueror was already a full-fledged browser before Apple came to use it. They've definitely made improvements to the code as I hear the KDE users claiming it to be more reliable now. That's not innovative, that's a software professional doing debugging and writing code correctly. :)

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by bousozoku
Konqueror was already a full-fledged browser before Apple came to use it. They've definitely made improvements to the code as I hear the KDE users claiming it to be more reliable now. That's not innovative, that's a software professional doing debugging and writing code correctly. :)

As I stated the innovation comes from the openness of communications between Apple, the open source community, and the KHTML devolopers. I woudn't call it a full fledged browser before hand. Yes, it was a working browser but far from full featured.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by MacBandit
As I stated the innovation comes from the openness of communications between Apple, the open source community, and the KHTML devolopers. I woudn't call it a full fledged browser before hand. Yes, it was a working browser but far from full featured. seriously. konqueror was not a heavily used browser. most linux users would just get mozilla's latest. KHTML was pretty decent before, but it wasn't anything like safari. people trashed the first release of safari as incomplete, and that, i guarantee, was much more complete than the konqueror from which safari is derived.

[GregA]

I know it wouldn't be innovation... but I'd love to be able to pause a download and resume later. Or restart a download if I lose connection...
(if that already exists somewhere, can someone tell me how to enable it?)

Maybe innovation could come by searching for other sources to download from?

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by GregAussie
I know it wouldn't be innovation... but I'd love to be able to pause a download and resume later. Or restart a download if I lose connection...
(if that already exists somewhere, can someone tell me how to enable it?)

Maybe innovation could come by searching for other sources to download from?

This is exactly the program you want. I used it for years and it works great.

http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/10801

[Perceptes]

I think Safari needs a lot of little improvements. I send lists of suggestions I think of periodically. Here are some of them:

- downloads window opens itself to clear the entry when a transfer finishes, window should not open for this reason
- option to bring download window to front when a new download starts and the download window is already open
- after posting a message on a messageboard and automatically redirected to the thread, the new post doesn't appear unless the page is then refreshed
- more personal preference than a problem: don't keep track of how many windows have been opened (e.g. Untitled X) when opening a new window
- key commands for page back and forward should be cmd-leftarrow and cmd-rightarrow
- images that don't load properly need a visible placeholder on the page
- should be able to load images that don't load individually from a contextual menu
- a way to disable auto-completing in the address bar
- bookmark folders should appear in in the bookmark menu as well as by clicking the bookmark icon in the favorites bar
- more control over the history: how many places to save, when to clear them, ability to remove single entries from the history
- ability to control cookies like Omniweb, on a per-cookie basis: accept always, accept but don't save, reject
- ability to open addresses in a new tab from clicking links in another application, instead of opening a new window
- option to save new bookmarks loose in the menu to be filed later, so the pop up doesn't come up every time you add a bookmark
- ability to search Google images directly from the search bar
- add a "save window size and location" feature like Omniweb. A window being opened by clicking a link, etc. should not become the default when you next open a blank window
- you should be able to download a file directly by typing its URL in the address bar and holding option while you press return

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by Perceptes
- after posting a message on a messageboard and automatically redirected to the thread, the new post doesn't appear unless the page is then refreshed

- bookmark folders should appear in in the bookmark menu as well as by clicking the bookmark icon in the favorites bar

- option to save new bookmarks loose in the menu to be filed later, so the pop up doesn't come up every time you add a bookmark



With MacRumors at least Safari loads the page correctly on the redirect for me.

Put your bookmarks in the bookmark menu folder. When you want to seen them in the boomark window using the icon in the favorites bar simply open the window and click on the bookmarks menu.

To save bookmarks loose, when the pop up window opens simply choose the book marks menu rather then a specific folder. It would be nice if it went back to that folder everytime though.

The rest of your suggestions were great.

[bennetsaysargh]

thanks for the tips MacBandit!

[i_wolf]

In my humble opinion the best and most advanced, usable and quick browser has to be Opera 7.10. I use it on the PC and it has so many useful little quirks that the others simply dont have. Opera has had tabbed browsing for ages. It has the good bar, in fact pretty much any search bar can be integrated or built into the interface (which again IMO is way ahead of the competition). Then we get to its mouse gestures features which is really cool..... instead of having to click left and right buttons at the top of the screen... leave the mouse where it is hold down the right mouse button and move slightly left or right instead. Again this sounds probably more complication but, trust me its so intuitive and easy to do.
Anyway
Kind Regards
i_wolf