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Stinkythe1
Oct 23, 2006, 10:05 PM
Before you gasp :eek:

My brother and I always attend a halloween party as a pair. In the past we've been Gordon Freeman and the G-Man, Gabe and Tycho, Good Ash and bad Ash. You get the idea. So this year we are thinking about going as Jules and Vincent from Pulp Fiction. I will be playing the role of Jules. I am white and I need to turn into Samuel L Jackson. Does anyone know about face makeup and where I could procure an African American hue? I want it to be pretty permenant where it doesn't rub off on clothes yet easily washed off in the shower.

However, I don't want to look like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/Minstrel_PosterBillyVanWare.jpg

Advice?

afornander
Oct 23, 2006, 10:08 PM
try walmart;)

dornoforpyros
Oct 23, 2006, 10:09 PM
we did a play in grade 5 or 6 and I remember using face cream and coco powder. Can't remember how realistic the results were (hey, it was like 15 years ago!) but I do remember it left the wearers skin uber smooth after :)

beatsme
Oct 23, 2006, 10:57 PM
eh...are you sure you want to wear that makeup all night?

hmmm...costume duos
Batman & Robin, but only from the 60's tv show
Clark Kent & Superman
Young Elvis & Fat Elvis

Dean Martin & Jerry Lewis, maybe?

Kirk & Spock?

how about Lenny & Squiggy, or if you're feeling really adventurous, Laverne & Shirley?

katie ta achoo
Oct 23, 2006, 10:58 PM
get a few bottles of foundation and do it very meticulously?

don't forget your hands, neck, and ears.

livingfortoday
Oct 23, 2006, 11:03 PM
Ok, wow, I totally wouldn't go for that. Just seems like it's a bad idea, like it'd be too easy for people to misinterpret what you're going for.

beatsme
Oct 23, 2006, 11:05 PM
Ok, wow, I totally wouldn't go for that. Just seems like it's a bad idea, like it'd be too easy for people to misinterpret what you're going for.

I didn't want to come right out and say it, but yea...I'm not sure the black-face makeup is what you want to do. Bad connotations, esp. in Mississippi

Eldentistfuturo
Oct 23, 2006, 11:14 PM
As a black male, I wouldn't want you to show up at my house with black makeup on.

DISCOMUNICATION
Oct 23, 2006, 11:19 PM
I didn't want to come right out and say it, but yea...I'm not sure the black-face makeup is what you want to do. Bad connotations, esp. in Mississippi
Yeah why don't one of you just go as Uma with a black wig, boobs, and a nose bleed. I'd even suggest the gimp before going in black face. You could both wear black suits and introduce yourself as Mr. Brown and Mr. Pink. Or if that doesn't work just tell people your the Blues Brothers or Men in Black. Actually don't do MIB that's just lame.

DISCOMUNICATION
Oct 23, 2006, 11:22 PM
As a black male, I wouldn't want you to show up at my house with black makeup on.
Yeah, deffinately no makeup. Maybe just the afro could sell it. How pale are you?

savar
Oct 23, 2006, 11:23 PM
Ok, wow, I totally wouldn't go for that. Just seems like it's a bad idea, like it'd be too easy for people to misinterpret what you're going for.

Exactly what I was thinking. Even though your going as a particular character, black face has a connotation of racism because of its use in in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. (See The Birth Of A Nation, e.g.) However, if you have your heart set on it, the way they did back then was with charcoal. I believe they burned wood thoroughly then mashed it up with water to make a paste.

It would probably be funnier to print out Sam Jackson's face on a color printer and make a mask.

nospleen
Oct 23, 2006, 11:43 PM
As a black male, I wouldn't want you to show up at my house with black makeup on.


I agree, as a white male, I wouldn't want you to show up at my house with black makeup on.

I know it is all in fun and not mean spirited, but, I think some things are just too serious to even take the chance. (especially in Miss.)

MrSmith
Oct 23, 2006, 11:53 PM
Ren & Stimpy?

Markleshark
Oct 24, 2006, 02:37 AM
Wow, while almost saying the OP is a racist, you yourselves have all come rather as the same. Why such a large divide? It's a costume FFS... Maybe its just a touchy US thing... Who knows...

MrSmith
Oct 24, 2006, 02:44 AM
Wow, while almost saying the OP is a racist, you yourselves have all come rather as the same. Why such a large divide? It's a costume FFS... Maybe its just a touchy US thing... Who knows...
For some reason Political Correctness is infectious. If someone came to my house looking like the guy in the top picture I'd laugh my arse off...because I think it's funny.

Markleshark
Oct 24, 2006, 02:53 AM
For some reason Political Correctness is infectious. If someone came to my house looking like the guy in the top picture I'd laugh my arse off...because I think it's funny.

Me too. Where are you from... Oh, yeah... UK. :rolleyes: :D

Foggy
Oct 24, 2006, 02:53 AM
Just out of curiosity, would the people saying not to do it have a problem if a black person turned up with white makeup on?

Brize
Oct 24, 2006, 04:41 AM
Wow, while almost saying the OP is a racist, you yourselves have all come rather as the same. Why such a large divide? It's a costume FFS... Maybe its just a touchy US thing... Who knows...

The racial dynamic of Mississippi is probably different to that of Carlisle. Regardless, I'd find black face offensive in nearly all contexts.

I vote BNP (Link) (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=2962918#post2962918)

'Nuff said.

Markleshark
Oct 24, 2006, 05:17 AM
WTF?

I'd find black face offensive in nearly all contexts

You find all back faces offensive?...

Cleaver idea anyway... I was asking what everyones problem was, trying to bridge the gap, and you dig up my honesty. You should maybe read up a bit more before judging. ;) And the Daily Mail doesn't count as reading up... Anyway, I'm not here to discuss and argue about my political views, so if you don't mind.

Sun Baked
Oct 24, 2006, 05:36 AM
As a black male, I wouldn't want you to show up at my house with black makeup on.Yeah, deffinately no makeup. Maybe just the afro could sell it. How pale are you?But people are most likely to beat up a Michael Jackson impersonator, than somebody showing up with the blackface makeup.

mrzeve
Oct 24, 2006, 05:41 AM
Wow, your all a bunch of liberals ;]

I cant believe you guys find this offensive. Maybe things really are that much different in other states than here in New York City.

Ive seen people do this using a mixture of powder and black make up. It gives it more of a comedic look then a realistic one - kind of like when Dave Chapelle dresses as a white news anchor on his show.

MrSmith
Oct 24, 2006, 05:45 AM
kind of like when Dave Chapelle dresses as a white news anchor on his show.
:eek: The racist son-of-a... No. Hang on a minute. He's... I'm... Oh, someone tell me what to think. Please!

Sun Baked
Oct 24, 2006, 05:56 AM
:eek: The racist son-of-a... No. Hang on a minute. He's... I'm... Oh, someone tell me what to think. Please!This is a text-based forum, which means you need to know how to read.

Please go to YouTube for your video-based opinion.

Edit: Nevermind ... I'm too lazy to make a video-based insult. :p

MrSmith
Oct 24, 2006, 06:17 AM
This is a text-based forum, which means you need to know how to read.

Please go to YouTube for your video-based opinion.

Edit: Nevermind ... I'm too lazy to make a video-based insult. :p
Nope. I can't make head or tail of your reply, but in case you misunderstood my oblique reference I was alluding to the double standards referred to by mrzeve and the independence of thought (i.e., non-political, just rational) required to recognize it. That's all.

bowens
Oct 24, 2006, 08:23 AM
I guess you guys would probably think this was offensive too then.

redAPPLE
Oct 24, 2006, 09:13 AM
some americans are simply too uptight. i just don't get it. it is halloween for gods sake. if that is the americans only problem, then i would reconsider my statement.

another poster also stated, what if a black guy (or gal) goes to a halloween party and tries to look white? would they be bashed, too? i honestly hope not.

livingfortoday
Oct 24, 2006, 09:34 AM
some americans are simply too uptight. i just don't get it. it is halloween for gods sake. if that is the americans only problem, then i would reconsider my statement.

another poster also stated, what if a black guy (or gal) goes to a halloween party and tries to look white? would they be bashed, too? i honestly hope not.

The problem with it is that there is a historical (and you don't have to go back too far, either) context for this kind of racism against black people in the US. Black face was used as a way to insult black people, whereas there is no history of people using "white face" to insult whites.

KingYaba
Oct 24, 2006, 09:41 AM
PC be damned, just find some brown/black paint and go with it! :D

takao
Oct 24, 2006, 11:19 AM
oh well .. what's next ? not being able to dress up as islamic terrorist either ?

ontopic:
aren't there special makeups available like during carnival ? ... i remember using such stuff when i went as a green monster as a kid

Calvinatir
Oct 24, 2006, 11:31 AM
Last halloween I was a "New Orleans Looter" and I used black face paint from walmart... worked very well

erickkoch
Oct 24, 2006, 11:50 AM
Last halloween I was a "New Orleans Looter" and I used black face paint from walmart... worked very well

Yikes!!!!:eek: :eek: :eek:

I would never do such a thing. I lived through the LA riots and if I dressed as a black rioter or looter it would have been considered in bad taste, but that's just my opinion.

Calvinatir
Oct 24, 2006, 11:56 AM
eh, it was when I lived in Calabasas (or CalaBlackless as some say) so I was in no real danger...

livingfortoday
Oct 24, 2006, 11:58 AM
eh, it was when I lived in Calabasas (or CalaBlackless as some say) so I was in no real danger...

Well, I mean, *I* woulda kicked your ass, but you know. I live in Chicago, so you're safe.

Calvinatir
Oct 24, 2006, 12:01 PM
I was welcomed by a couple black people who were at the party, they thought it was hilarious... I had an Albertson's carry basket with some nike boxes and some food and stuff in it. And I carried around a fake glock and a rifle. It was amazing.

iKwick7
Oct 24, 2006, 12:16 PM
Before you gasp :eek:

My brother and I always attend a halloween party as a pair. In the past we've been Gordon Freeman and the G-Man, Gabe and Tycho, Good Ash and bad Ash. You get the idea. So this year we are thinking about going as Jules and Vincent from Pulp Fiction. I will be playing the role of Jules. I am white and I need to turn into Samuel L Jackson. Does anyone know about face makeup and where I could procure an African American hue? I want it to be pretty permenant where it doesn't rub off on clothes yet easily washed off in the shower.

However, I don't want to look like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/Minstrel_PosterBillyVanWare.jpg

Advice?



Noooooooooo!!!! I was going to do that NEXT year w/ a good friend of mine! This year we are going to a holloween party as "two wild and craaaazy guys" (the Saturday Night Live skit w/ Steve Martin and Beluschi), which is easy enough since I actually own clothes that look exactly like they wore in that skit.


The Pulp Fiction idea is great though (I really am doing it next year!). Wear a nice suit or the like as an entry costume, and get rid of them later on (wear some nasty, ugly ass golf lookin clothes underneath).

Thanatoast
Oct 24, 2006, 12:17 PM
Was it in MS that a frat got disbanded because two guys dressed up as Venus and Serena Williams?

I thought they woulda made great costumes, but apparently the university disagreed.

Markleshark
Oct 24, 2006, 12:18 PM
Last halloween I was a "New Orleans Looter" and I used black face paint from walmart... worked very well

LMFAO... Now thats funny! :D

Stinkythe1
Oct 24, 2006, 12:50 PM
The Pulp Fiction idea is great though (I really am doing it next year!). Wear a nice suit or the like as an entry costume, and get rid of them later on (wear some nasty, ugly ass golf lookin clothes underneath).

Maybe I can sell you our wigs for next year.... :p

Maybe I should have clarified the nature of this party. This is probably only about 8-10 of some close friends, where we all go to a cabin out somewhere and watch scary movies. No black people will be there to be offended. :D

So now that we know that I won't be offending anyone at this party, can you please answer my question?

Thanks.

ChrisWB
Oct 24, 2006, 01:08 PM
For some reason Political Correctness is infectious. If someone came to my house looking like the guy in the top picture I'd laugh my arse off...because I think it's funny.Your country does not have the extremely negative historical connotations associated with black face that ours does. It has an entirely different meaning in the U.S.
Last halloween I was a "New Orleans Looter" and I used black face paint from walmart... worked very wellThat's sick. Most of the "looters" were people trying to feed their families. Also, regardless of what you might think white residents also "looted".

Calvinatir
Oct 24, 2006, 01:22 PM
That's sick. Most of the "looters" were people trying to feed their families. Also, regardless of what you might think white residents also "looted".


I didn't think it was sick. When I watched TV all I saw were black people running a muck on the streets with guns and NIKE's and all that nonsense. It's really not that big of a deal, I'm trying to think of something even more offensive for next week like Terri Schiavo, LOL kidding

vniow
Oct 24, 2006, 01:25 PM
I'm trying to think of something even more offensive for next week like Terri Schiavo, LOL kidding


Now that's funny.

ChrisWB
Oct 24, 2006, 02:08 PM
I didn't think it was sick. When I watched TV all I saw were black people running a muck on the streets with guns and NIKE's and all that nonsense. It's really not that big of a dealAll I saw was families trying to hold together through a crisis.

mactastic
Oct 24, 2006, 02:43 PM
That's sick. Most of the "looters" were people trying to feed their families. Also, regardless of what you might think white residents also "looted".
No no no, you have it all wrong (http://www.adammagazine.com/2005/09/white-foragers-report-threat-of-black.html). White people "foraged", black people "looted". ;)

quigleybc
Oct 24, 2006, 02:45 PM
You're askin for trouble....and you're from MISS ?? ha ha


good luck with that....

thedude110
Oct 24, 2006, 04:04 PM
This is the first time I think I've actually been frightened by a thread on these boards.

If you can't get outside your own head or your own culture, don't expect others not to be offended by your ignorance.

aricher
Oct 24, 2006, 04:17 PM
Noooooooooo!!!! I was going to do that NEXT year w/ a good friend of mine! This year we are going to a holloween party as "two wild and craaaazy guys" (the Saturday Night Live skit w/ Steve Martin and Beluschi), which is easy enough since I actually own clothes that look exactly like they wore in that skit.

It was Steve Martin & Dan Aykroyd - not Belushi.

And as far as the blackface thing goes, I know a guy who tried a similar costume a few years ago. He got his a$$ kicked on the bus ride home.

Good luck.

Apple Hobo
Oct 24, 2006, 06:23 PM
If you're set on Pulp Fiction, I vote for Zed and Maynard. If someone doesn't like your costumes, you can tie them up and sodo...uh, err, have loving relations with them. ;)

extraextra
Oct 24, 2006, 09:08 PM
I wouldn't be offended. I'm Asian, maybe that's why. :rolleyes:

I second the foundation. It's a little tough to find darker shades, and I've forgotten what brands offer it. I'm pretty sure Covergirl or L'Oreal will, you can find it at Target or someplace similar. It should stay on pretty well (just don't sweat a lot) and then wash off with some soap.

yojitani
Oct 24, 2006, 09:17 PM
Your country does not have the extremely negative historical connotations associated with black face that ours does. It has an entirely different meaning in the U.S.

Yes it does. Mr.BNP & co. wouldn't admit to it though. It's a different history, of course, but the negative connotations are there.

Racially motivated violence in the UK is still pretty common.

I'm frankly surprised that the Brits in this thread seem to think saying that wearing black face paint is not ok means that American's are 'uptight.' I'm a dual national and don't think that any mature, straight thinking person would think it's ok on any side of the pond (aside from Mr.BNP& Co. and perhaps some of the Tory backbench). It really doesn't have anything to do with equivalences. The argument, "if a black guy dressed up like a white guy.." is an invalid argument. Whites dressing up as africans, indians, asians etc. was a symbol of repression for.. a long time. There is still a huge power differential in the US AND the UK between white and other races, thus to try to reduce this to a matter of moral equivalences is supremely moronic.

Incidentally, for Americans, waking Aussies and Kiwis who don't know: BNP=British National Party. They are the polite wing of British Nazi's.

yt

MrSmith
Oct 24, 2006, 10:54 PM
Yes it does. Mr.BNP & co. wouldn't admit to it though. It's a different history, of course, but the negative connotations are there.

Racially motivated violence in the UK is still pretty common.

I'm frankly surprised that the Brits in this thread seem to think saying that wearing black face paint is not ok means that American's are 'uptight.' I'm a dual national and don't think that any mature, straight thinking person would think it's ok on any side of the pond (aside from Mr.BNP& Co. and perhaps some of the Tory backbench). It really doesn't have anything to do with equivalences. The argument, "if a black guy dressed up like a white guy.." is an invalid argument. Whites dressing up as africans, indians, asians etc. was a symbol of repression for.. a long time. There is still a huge power differential in the US AND the UK between white and other races, thus to try to reduce this to a matter of moral equivalences is supremely moronic.

Incidentally, for Americans, waking Aussies and Kiwis who don't know: BNP=British National Party. They are the polite wing of British Nazi's.

yt
Your argument is to the effect that because seeing a white person in black get-up (as Samuel L. Jackson - not to ridicule black people) doesn't offend me I'm a Nazi :confused: Look. It's nothing to do with history. I can't relate such a small thing as that with racial suffering. You are obviously only too willing to be offended. How can there ever be peace and equality with people like you making every little thing a tense political drama?

yojitani
Oct 25, 2006, 01:15 AM
Your argument is to the effect that because seeing a white person in black get-up (as Samuel L. Jackson - not to ridicule black people) doesn't offend me I'm a Nazi :confused: Look. It's nothing to do with history. I can't relate such a small thing as that with racial suffering. You are obviously only too willing to be offended. How can there ever be peace and equality with people like you making every little thing a tense political drama?

edit: retract this post. It's visible below in a reply from MrSmith, I know, but this argument is breaking down and I don't want to be part of it.

Koodauw
Oct 25, 2006, 01:26 AM
what about going as Steve Irwin and a Stingray? or is that not PC either?

Calvinatir
Oct 25, 2006, 01:37 AM
what about going as Steve Irwin and a Stingray? or is that not PC either?



perfect, my new Halloween costume!!

MrSmith
Oct 25, 2006, 02:37 AM
Edit: post retracted with respect.

Supa_Fly
Oct 25, 2006, 03:31 AM
Before you gasp :eek:

My brother and I always attend a halloween party as a pair. In the past we've been Gordon Freeman and the G-Man, Gabe and Tycho, Good Ash and bad Ash. You get the idea. So this year we are thinking about going as Jules and Vincent from Pulp Fiction. I will be playing the role of Jules. I am white and I need to turn into Samuel L Jackson. Does anyone know about face makeup and where I could procure an African American hue? I want it to be pretty permenant where it doesn't rub off on clothes yet easily washed off in the shower.

However, I don't want to look like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/Minstrel_PosterBillyVanWare.jpg

Advice?

ARRGH! Ok I need to breathe!

I'm going to try to be honest, and objective to what I see posted and your intent as posted.

Some points before this gets outta hand.
NOTE:> I'm black, I do have caucasian members in my family in the states, France and England. I was brought up to be an open mind even if I get thrown a mud ball in my afro since I was a kid. However something here appalls me here.

I'm most likely older than you and see things differently. The post you made above, given your from Mississippi - a state that traditionally in history (from what I've read, I'm Canadian) has a LONG history of blantant racism. And you post a caricature like that above. To understand why I might me appalled please visit this site to understand a little more. Take a GOOD look at the photos and the timeline of artistry and how closely it matches yours http://www.ferris.edu/news/jimcrow/caricature/.

That said I have some tips.
1> Its old Hollow e'en! So go out and have fun; Just be careful and avoid ANY confrontation when alone.

2> Historically actors of that error pre 1940's that had attained a darken face actually used shoe shine pollish. Something I would advise against. (You don't want a brother with an already bad attitude finding you in the street after a party).

3> Go to the mall, makeup store with your girlfriend and ask for the DARKEST complexion makeup and use it sparingly across your face. You dont need to cover your neck or under the ears, unless your going for top prize costumes. Some advise dont push your luck and wear white gloves either; trust me on this.

4> DONT go to school like this WITHOUT notifying your teachers and possibly vice principle (if your in Grade School, High School, or College/Uni) as not only would you put yourself in criticism but also faculty, and quite possibly your family & neighborhood under the microscope IF it gets blown outta proportion. PS if you want to have a mustache, steal your mom's mascara, it works - I did this on my face to get into bars when I was 16 (Clubs I didnt have to, I was hooked up).

See I tried REALLY hard to be honest & objective. However, MOD's may I ask to Carefully watch this thread as it can get ugly if mature conversation breaks down.

Thank you.

MrSmith
Oct 25, 2006, 07:17 AM
See I tried REALLY hard to be honest & objective.You certainly were. Thanks for the posting and the link.

However, MOD's may I ask to Carefully watch this thread as it can get ugly if mature conversation breaks down.
Seeing as you are black and you didn't give the slightest hint at being offended with anything written here there doesn't seem a lot left to be said on the subject. Things get ugly when conversation steers away from rational debate and turns into insults against the perceived character of those participating in the debate. It's difficult not to put up a defence when that happens.

Foggy
Oct 25, 2006, 07:38 AM
NOTE:> I'm black, I do have caucasian members in my family in the states, France and England. I was brought up to be an open mind even if I get thrown a mud ball in my afro since I was a kid. However something here appalls me here.


I took that as a hint he was offended somewhat.

I still think that asking if it is ok for a black person to dress as a white person is a perfectly valid question. Maybe white people didnt have to suffer the same as ethnic minorities in the past - maybe they still dont, but I personally find reverse discrimination bloody annoying. Things like the MOBO awards I find offensive - where are the MOWO awards? I cant see that going down very well, there are also radio stations over here for music of black origin, sure as hell dont get white music radio stations. I actually think these things are detrimental towards race relations as they preach that there are differences based on the colour of skin and create yet another divide.

Another question - would people find it offensive if he wanted to dress as an italian? or an austrian in lederhosen? or wear a cork hat and pretend to be australian? All stereotypes, but they are ok because it doesnt involve a change in skin colour? As far as I can tell the bloke just wants to go to a party dressed as Samuel L Jackson, not bring back segregation.

MrSmith
Oct 25, 2006, 07:55 AM
I took that as a hint he was offended somewhat.

I believe he was referring to the caricature; which, if you read the link, is understandable.

Foggy
Oct 25, 2006, 08:04 AM
I believe he was referring to the caricature; which, if you read the link, is understandable.

Ahh - fair enough mate

freeny
Oct 25, 2006, 08:13 AM
Ahh! Mississippi.:rolleyes:

Brize
Oct 25, 2006, 08:59 AM
I actually think these things are detrimental towards race relations as they preach that there are differences based on the colour of skin and create yet another divide.

Skin colour is a mark of difference. Not an innate difference, but a difference nonetheless, socially constructed by White people. The discourse of 'colour-blindness' is an attempt to obscure these differences because they continue to benefit White people.

Some of the posters here are clearly speaking from a position of white privilege: you find 'reverse discrimination bloody annoying', while MrSmith can't relate black face to racial suffering himself, so concludes that people are just 'too willing to be offended'. Frankly, I'm appalled by some of the comments in this thread, especially those from British members.

MrSmith
Oct 25, 2006, 10:56 AM
Jimmini jillickers, here we go again.:rolleyes:

Skin colour is a mark of difference.
Black and white and yellow and every other colour are different. Period. Whether skin colour or car colour. A mark of difference? As opposed to a non-mark of difference? This has no meaning.

Not an innate difference,
So...the Colour Fairy paints babies' skins while they're asleep?

but a difference nonetheless, socially constructed by White people.
All the laws of physics governing wave frequencies, colour perception, what-have-you, are rubbish. It's the White Man who does it all.

The discourse of 'colour-blindness' is an attempt to obscure these differences because they continue to benefit White people.
I think people of all nationalities are individuals and not to be despised purely because of some genetic difference. This includes the notion of considering whites and blacks as equal = the colour difference is not important to me = I don't see the colour difference. But you're saying I mustn't think that way because I'm a whitey (sorry, Whitey) and thinking that way benefits me? So I shouldn't be colour-blind. What should I think then? "You're a different colour to me...but I like you anyway"? But at the beginning I thought you said colour differences are 'not innate' and were invented by the White man.

Some of the posters here are clearly speaking from a position of white privilege
For example? You know these people personally? Or are you saying they're privileged purely because they're white?

you find 'reverse discrimination bloody annoying'
And you, presumably, find it perfectly acceptable without any sense of hypocrisy at all.

while MrSmith can't relate black face to racial suffering himself, so concludes that people are just 'too willing to be offended'
I was born white. I can't help it. Whether I'm privileged compared to others is a matter of opinion. Personally I can't think of any reason why I should be so considered.

The black faces in question were, firstly, one the OP wanted to wear to a fancy dress party - which, no, I can't relate to black suffering. I know there was black suffering, but I don't see the connection. Or maybe the OP is a reincarnation of Hitler, eh? The second is the picture at the top, which is intrinsically funny but which I said somewhere above I could understand being offensive after reading the linked article (the contents of which I was largely ignorant).

My comments about 'being too willing to be offended' were a direct, knee-jerk reaction to another poster for what I perceived to be an unfair, unwarranted attack towards me. However, the same may be extended in your direction. You accuse some of the people here of offending your sensibilities but offer no concrete examples. You've clearly jumped on some bandwagon of discontentment, seemingly without any rational thought whatsoever, and quite prepared to make sweeping statements about people you don't even know.

Frankly, I'm appalled by some of the comments in this thread, especially those from British members.
"Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"

Oh, funnily enough, my wife is Asian, so it's unlikely I'm a closet Adolf. And I'm sure as hell not overly sensitive about the colour of her skin either. Sorry, but after all these years I got the dreaded colour-blindness.

Foggy
Oct 25, 2006, 10:58 AM
Skin colour is a mark of difference. Not an innate difference, but a difference nonetheless, socially constructed by White people. The discourse of 'colour-blindness' is an attempt to obscure these differences because they continue to benefit White people.

Some of the posters here are clearly speaking from a position of white privilege: you find 'reverse discrimination bloody annoying', while MrSmith can't relate black face to racial suffering himself, so concludes that people are just 'too willing to be offended'. Frankly, I'm appalled by some of the comments in this thread, especially those from British members.

So discrimination is a nono but reverse discrimination is fine? I should be fine with it because others have suffered far worse and I because I am white and therefore am privileged?!?

Hold on - just got to go pull this silver spoon out my arse and go yell at Jeeves to get the Rolls.

kasei
Oct 25, 2006, 11:41 AM
Wow! I've read this entire thread and I have to say I am disappointed. It is pretty clear that not only have people failed to learn about the history of this nation, but they choose to see what they want. I've lived in many different countries and I've lived in the southern (Georgia) part of the US. I think it would be in poor tasted to go in Black Face to a party. Case in point Tedd Dason decided to appear at a roast in Black Face and caused a fire storm in 1993.

It has nothing to do with political correctness and everything to do with social sensitivity. It may be time for me to reduce the amount of time I visit MacRumors.

Foggy
Oct 25, 2006, 11:51 AM
Wow! I've read this entire thread and I have to say I am disappointed. It is pretty clear that not only have people failed to learn about the history of this nation, but they choose to see what they want. I've lived in many different countries and I've lived in the southern (Georgia) part of the US. I think it would be in poor tasted to go in Black Face to a party. Case in point Tedd Dason decided to appear at a roast in Black Face and caused a fire storm in 1993.

It has nothing to do with political correctness and everything to do with social sensitivity. It may be time for me to reduce the amount of time I visit MacRumors.

Not being funny but the bloke specifically has said he doesn't want to look like he has gone in 'Black Face', he is wants to go dressed as Samuel L Jackson. I could see exactly why people would find it offensive if he wanted to go in make up looking like that picture he posted, which is why I am assuming he doesn't want to look like that.

I personally see it as no more racist him wanting to go as Samuel L Jackson as I would see it as being sexist if he wanted to go dressed as Uma Thurman.

kasei
Oct 25, 2006, 12:16 PM
Not being funny but the bloke specifically has said he doesn't want to look like he has gone in 'Black Face', he is wants to go dressed as Samuel L Jackson. I could see exactly why people would find it offensive if he wanted to go in make up looking like that picture he posted, which is why I am assuming he doesn't want to look like that.

I personally see it as no more racist him wanting to go as Samuel L Jackson as I would see it as being sexist if he wanted to go dressed as Uma Thurman.

You are right. He did say he didn't want to go in Black Face. However the followup posts leave little to imagination.

freeny
Oct 25, 2006, 12:31 PM
You are right. He did say he didn't want to go in Black Face. However the followup posts leave little to imagination.

Perhaps if he had not used the linked picture that illustrated a time in our (US) history that was shamefully racist there may have not been an uproar.

I found the image to be unnecessary and think it would have been just fine to say "Samual L Jackson".

Did we really need the image?

No insult intended on the OP but the south, as progressive as they'd like to believe they are, is still livin in a different time...

yojitani
Oct 25, 2006, 12:59 PM
Threads like these either degrade into senseless angry, defensive attacks or just get silly. I opt for the latter:
blackpeopleloveus (http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com)

Apologies and thanks to MrSmith. As much as I disagree with him, I mistakenly identified him as a BNP voter because of his response to one of my posts (there was a BNP voter on this thread, but NOT MrSmith). I spent some good time in North London in the 90's doing anti-fascist/skinhead 'activism' some of which was direct action against BNP. I've outgrown the physical side of this (not to mention I'm no longer near the beautiful streets of Holloway), but just the mention got my blood boiling. In other words: apologies for losing my temper.:o

Brize
Oct 25, 2006, 01:01 PM
This includes the notion of considering whites and blacks as equal = the colour difference is not important to me = I don't see the colour difference.

The problem is that White people and Black people aren't equal: Black people don't have access to the same opportunities as White people, and are far more likely to experience discrimination in education, employment, the criminal justice system, etc. Your over-literal interpretation of 'equality' only serves to obscure the structures of oppression that continue to marginalise and disenfranchise Black people and other people of colour.

The second is the picture at the top, which is intrinsically funny but which I said somewhere above I could understand being offensive after reading the linked article (the contents of which I was largely ignorant).

Intrinsically funny? I'm not sure that you understand the concept of intrinsicism, but regardless, you won't be surprised to learn that I don't share your sense of humour.

You've clearly jumped on some bandwagon of discontentment, seemingly without any rational thought whatsoever, and quite prepared to make sweeping statements about people you don't even know.

First, I'd like to think that my personal commitment to anti-racism is more long-standing than 'jumping on a bandwagon' would imply. Second, it's nothing more than vacuous rhetoric to suggest that those who don't share your views are not thinking rationally. Finally, I don't need to know you personally to establish that (a) you're White, (b) White people occupy a position of privilege relative to Black people, and (c) the discourses that you and others have employed in this thread are ethnocentric.

thedude110
Oct 25, 2006, 03:52 PM
I was born white. I can't help it. Whether I'm privileged compared to others is a matter of opinion. Personally I can't think of any reason why I should be so considered.



Let's start here (http://seamonkey.ed.asu.edu/~mcisaac/emc598ge/Unpacking.html).

As for reverse discrimination, look. Everyone is prejudiced. Fact is, it's hard for the disempowered to discriminate against the empowered in a socially meaningful way. Certainly you'll grant there's a stark difference between discrimination and prejudice.

Calvinatir
Oct 25, 2006, 07:15 PM
what about going as Steve Irwin and a Stingray? or is that not PC either?


If he wanted to be actually offensive he'd dress up as a Milkman and an Amish girl...

but no person who has any sort of soul would do that...

MrSmith
Oct 25, 2006, 07:43 PM
yojitani: respect.

Well, I don't know what more I can say. I'm just one guy trying to earn enough dough to raise his family peacefully. Since there's no prejudice in what I teach them I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong according to you guys. Is it because I don't think enough about racial inequality? I'm certainly not denying the history of black oppression any more than I'd deny the Holocaust.

I'm not sure what is ethnocentric here. Ethnocentric: evaluating other peoples and cultures according to the standards of one's own culture. I think that's a natural inclination for humans since we are surrounded by our culture from the day we're born and it shapes us. I drink alcohol and I would defend my right to drink it. Is that ethnocentric? Because Islam forbids it.

That picture is funny intrinsically because of the exaggerated eyes and mouth, much as this is:

http://www.outofbalance.org/gmcd1222/days3/GIFs/solange-goggle-eyed.jpg

Not because it resembles a black person. That's what I mean by intrinsically funny. There's no associated humour reference, if you see what I mean. [but see * below]

I really don't think I could function if I was as hung up about my privileges as some of you seem to be. It's hard enough to get through day-to-day. I'm not denying or confirming color privileges exist, any more than male privileges exist. But I'm just not hung up on things like those listed in the article. Man, I'd go mad if I was obsessed enough to make a list like that.

*Socially insensitive? I had a thought late last night which perhaps helped me see where some of you are coming from. Suppose someone turned up at my door in a wheelchair and said they'd come to my fancy dress party as an invalid. That I can understand and maybe that is what I'm missing here, although in that case it's being disrespectful to a handicap, i.e. something regrettable that the subject would rather not have.

Out of interest, does anyone find Borat offensive?

And where's Prom1's voice?

Stinkythe1
Oct 25, 2006, 11:50 PM
I'm not too sure if anyone read this reply:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=2976300&postcount=38

Also, I probably should have taken off my location, just so people wouldn't be even more shocked that I were doing this.

Would ya'll get mad if I posted pictures after the party?? ;)

Brize
Oct 26, 2006, 04:56 AM
MrSmith: Thanks for your considered post.

I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong according to you guys. Is it because I don't think enough about racial inequality?

I think it's important to at least recognise that people of colour continue to get a rough deal; arguably, ignoring inequality is as bad as denying it. In this particular instance, you couldn't find anything wrong with the OP's question or the image he posted - you found it funny in fact - and you therefore couldn't understand why anyone else might find it offensive or problematic until provided with some historical context.

No, it's not ethnocentric to drink alcohol or defend your right to do so, because, referring back to the definition you posted, you've merely acknowledged that drinking alcohol is forbidden by Islam; you're not evaluating another culture from the perspective of your own.

The only thing intrinsic to the image posted above is the exaggerated eyes and lips. The humour that you find in the image is entirely subjective; personally, I find it to be grotesque, offensive and somewhat unsettling: the character in black face looks to be on the verge of tears.

Out of interest, does anyone find Borat offensive?

See here for some responses to that question:

http://film.guardian.co.uk/features/featurepages/0,,1931712,00.html

Brize
Oct 26, 2006, 05:02 AM
I'm not too sure if anyone read this reply:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=2976300&postcount=38

Yes, it's perfectly fine to be racist among friends. :rolleyes:

MrSmith
Oct 26, 2006, 06:01 AM
MrSmith: Thanks for your considered post.Likewise. ;)


I think it's important to at least recognise that people of colour continue to get a rough deal; arguably, ignoring inequality is as bad as denying it. In this particular instance, you couldn't find anything wrong with the OP's question or the image he posted - you found it funny in fact - and you therefore couldn't understand why anyone else might find it offensive or problematic until provided with some historical context.
True. And I maintain that people from the UK, although we are aware of black suffering 'academically' (as in the US South/hangings/slavery), pictures like the above don't have the same impact generally.


No, it's not ethnocentric to drink alcohol or defend your right to do so, because, referring back to the definition you posted, you've merely acknowledged that drinking alcohol is forbidden by Islam; you're not evaluating another culture from the perspective of your own.
True. But I gotta say my culture's better regarding the booze :D


The only thing intrinsic to the image posted above is the exaggerated eyes and lips. The humour that you find in the image is entirely subjective; personally, I find it to be grotesque, offensive and somewhat unsettling: the character in black face looks to be on the verge of tears.

:( True, he does. I viewed it as posed.

Respect.

Brize
Oct 26, 2006, 06:48 AM
Respect.

Likewise. :)

bowens
Oct 26, 2006, 07:52 AM
I still think that asking if it is ok for a black person to dress as a white person is a perfectly valid question. Maybe white people didnt have to suffer the same as ethnic minorities in the past - maybe they still dont, but I personally find reverse discrimination bloody annoying. Things like the MOBO awards I find offensive - where are the MOWO awards? I cant see that going down very well, there are also radio stations over here for music of black origin, sure as hell dont get white music radio stations. I actually think these things are detrimental towards race relations as they preach that there are differences based on the colour of skin and create yet another divide.

I've thought this same thing and a quick google search shows that others have too.

http://naawpflch.org/

redAPPLE
Oct 26, 2006, 08:03 AM
Out of interest, does anyone find Borat offensive?


i love borat.

so let me go back on topic. try charcoal that should give you the black teint you need.

Brize
Oct 26, 2006, 08:36 AM
there are also radio stations over here for music of black origin, sure as hell dont get white music radio stations.

I rarely listen to the radio, but I find it hard to believe that White people aren't expressly catered for by UK radio stations.

There's Classic FM (http://www.classicfm.com/), which I've always considered to be pretty White-orientated, then there's Virgin Radio (http://www.virginradio.co.uk/), BBC Radio 2 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/shows/presenters.shtml) (four Black presenters out of fifty-two), Radio 3 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/presenters/index.shtml) (two Black presenters out of fifty-five) and Radio 4 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/presenters/index.shtml) (zero Black presenters out of ninety-six!). Hardly representative, is it?

Let's face it, this is predominately White programming for White people, hosted by White presenters.

wimic
Oct 26, 2006, 09:03 AM
Okay... so I might be bringing my macrumors involvement to a screeching hault by posting this, but what the hell.

I don't see why african americans have such a problem with white people impersonating them or talking like them - and why they assume that we have such bad intentions when doing so.

I know there's a lot of bad history there, but that's exactly what it is - history. we all talk about being equal and having equal rights, and i believe that the people who are suffering in this world, whether they be african american or not, are those very people who didn't take it upon themselves to do something about their poor living conditions/quality of life.

i can't even count how many times i've heard the word cracker used on television. white people shrug it off. why is there such a bad connotation with the N word - the fact that i can't type it on here is a perfect example of the difference. there are double standards and it's not fair.

it's almost a reverse discrimination, in my opinion. it's time for people to stop being so defensive, take responsibility for their actions and stop pinning their disadvantages on other people - especially over something that was over and done with decades ago.

My intent is not to offend people - not by a long shot. and perhaps my opinion arises out of naivety. but in any case, i think everyone's entitled to an opinion... and this is mine.

lmalave
Oct 26, 2006, 09:05 AM
I took that as a hint he was offended somewhat.

I still think that asking if it is ok for a black person to dress as a white person is a perfectly valid question. Maybe white people didnt have to suffer the same as ethnic minorities in the past - maybe they still dont, but I personally find reverse discrimination bloody annoying. Things like the MOBO awards I find offensive - where are the MOWO awards? I cant see that going down very well, there are also radio stations over here for music of black origin, sure as hell dont get white music radio stations. I actually think these things are detrimental towards race relations as they preach that there are differences based on the colour of skin and create yet another divide.

Another question - would people find it offensive if he wanted to dress as an italian? or an austrian in lederhosen? or wear a cork hat and pretend to be australian? All stereotypes, but they are ok because it doesnt involve a change in skin colour? As far as I can tell the bloke just wants to go to a party dressed as Samuel L Jackson, not bring back segregation.

The difference is that there isn't the the historical baggage of people dressing up as Italians, Austrians, Australians, etc. to demean them as inferior.

On the other hand, there *is* a history in American culture of white people dressing up as black people in order to mock and demean them. And this was in the same time period that violence against blacks was common, and blacks were institutionally denied civil rights under state laws. Therefore, the practice of blackface is inextricably linked with racism and discrimination. That's not necessarily an attack on the OP of being rasicst. It *is* an indication, on the other hand, of a profound ignorance of the historical baggage associated with the actions that he is proposing (a white person dressing in blackface).

So it's a free country and anyone has the right to be offensive, but it's important to recognize that it *is* offensive. For people that are just responding "I don't see how this is offensive": fine, *you're* not offended. But a lot of people are. If a bunch of people are saying that they're offended, then it's your right to offend them - but for Pete's sake don't try to argue with them that they shouldn't be offended!

EDIT: to answer the other part of your post - it is NOT the same thing for a black person to dress as a white person, because it doesn't have the historical baggage. Look at it from a legal perspective. It is *not* inherently illegal for a white person to wear a black disguise or vice versa. But let's say it happened in something like a work situation (a work halloween party), where there could be legal ramifications related to job discrimination, intimidation, etc. In that case, wearing the costume itself would not be illegal. The legal issue would be whether it was done with the intent to intimidate or create a hostile work environment. Because of the *historical precedents*, it would be a *lot* easier to argue in court that a white boss was being intimidating by dressing up in blackface, vs. a black boss being intimidating by dressing up in whiteface. The history *does* matter here because there is a longstanding historical *precedent* to use blackface as a way to demean blacks.

savar
Oct 26, 2006, 10:02 AM
Just out of curiosity, would the people saying not to do it have a problem if a black person turned up with white makeup on?

No. I wouldn't have a problem if a white person showed up in black face either.

I was just suggesting that most people are not like myself. The response would probably not be favorable, depending on where you wanted to where this.

I certainly never called the OP a racist, nor hinted at it nor skirted around it. I simply said that blackface carries racist connotations because of its historical usage.

Edit: just read Imalave's response above. Couldn't agree more. Like I said in my first post, if you're wondering what this history is, watch Griffith's "The Birth of A Nation".

Foggy
Oct 26, 2006, 11:06 AM
I rarely listen to the radio, but I find it hard to believe that White people aren't expressly catered for by UK radio stations.

There's Classic FM (http://www.classicfm.com/), which I've always considered to be pretty White-orientated, then there's Virgin Radio (http://www.virginradio.co.uk/), BBC Radio 2 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/shows/presenters.shtml) (four Black presenters out of fifty-two), Radio 3 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/presenters/index.shtml) (two Black presenters out of fifty-five) and Radio 4 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/presenters/index.shtml) (zero Black presenters out of ninety-six!). Hardly representative, is it?

Let's face it, this is predominately White programming for White people, hosted by White presenters.

I am not denying there is a greater white presence but I would expect there to be - according to the 2001 UK census the UK population was 91% white (I actually really didnt expect the figure to be that high).

It is just my belief that things like Radio1 Xtra actually goes against everything that we try and teach in terms of equality. We try to teach that skin colour doesnt make us different, but then in the next breath we seem to say that it does. At the same time, I find it strange that it is perfectly politically correct to say that we have a radio station that is the 'New black music network' but there is no way a 'New white music network' could be advertised without riots.

Then again, I feel the same way about the way we teach sexual equality - we say that is it wrong to discriminate against women but at the same time say it is fine to have women only gyms, women only classes, women only sports events. It isnt that I am saying that sexism and racism are justified - far from it - it is more that I find it somewhat hypocritical to say that it is ok one way and not the other, regardless of history.

Foggy
Oct 26, 2006, 11:14 AM
The difference is that there isn't the the historical baggage of people dressing up as Italians, Austrians, Australians, etc. to demean them as inferior.

On the other hand, there *is* a history in American culture of white people dressing up as black people in order to mock and demean them. And this was in the same time period that violence against blacks was common, and blacks were institutionally denied civil rights under state laws. Therefore, the practice of blackface is inextricably linked with racism and discrimination. That's not necessarily an attack on the OP of being rasicst. It *is* an indication, on the other hand, of a profound ignorance of the historical baggage associated with the actions that he is proposing (a white person dressing in blackface).

So it's a free country and anyone has the right to be offensive, but it's important to recognize that it *is* offensive. For people that are just responding "I don't see how this is offensive": fine, *you're* not offended. But a lot of people are. If a bunch of people are saying that they're offended, then it's your right to offend them - but for Pete's sake don't try to argue with them that they shouldn't be offended!

EDIT: to answer the other part of your post - it is NOT the same thing for a black person to dress as a white person, because it doesn't have the historical baggage. Look at it from a legal perspective. It is *not* inherently illegal for a white person to wear a black disguise or vice versa. But let's say it happened in something like a work situation (a work halloween party), where there could be legal ramifications related to job discrimination, intimidation, etc. In that case, wearing the costume itself would not be illegal. The legal issue would be whether it was done with the intent to intimidate or create a hostile work environment. Because of the *historical precedents*, it would be a *lot* easier to argue in court that a white boss was being intimidating by dressing up in blackface, vs. a black boss being intimidating by dressing up in whiteface. The history *does* matter here because there is a longstanding historical *precedent* to use blackface as a way to demean blacks.

Please re-read my posts - I totally agree that going dressed in blackface would be incredibly offensive but I dont think that is what the OP was wanting to do and have said as much a couple of times before.

Earendil
Oct 26, 2006, 11:51 AM
I rarely listen to the radio, but I find it hard to believe that White people aren't expressly catered for by UK radio stations.

There's Classic FM (http://www.classicfm.com/), which I've always considered to be pretty White-orientated, then there's Virgin Radio (http://www.virginradio.co.uk/), BBC Radio 2 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/shows/presenters.shtml) (four Black presenters out of fifty-two), Radio 3 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/presenters/index.shtml) (two Black presenters out of fifty-five) and Radio 4 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/presenters/index.shtml) (zero Black presenters out of ninety-six!). Hardly representative, is it?

Let's face it, this is predominately White programming for White people, hosted by White presenters.

*enters into the fray*

I've been following and just waiting for someone to say something far enough off that I had to jump in. When you are talking about "representing" what exactly are you talking about? Take a step back and think about that. To me it seems like you are implying a couple things here:
White people like White music.
Black People like Black music.
There is no cross over.
A White person could not pick music a Black person would like.
A Black person could not pick music a White person could like.
Now you will emediately disagree with all of those statements, as any person who has actually lives in society would.

So what than do you mean by "White People are expressly catered to" ?!! Really, please, tell me. Because afaik Musical taste is not genetic. In fact worse than that, as most american genetics are pretty well world class mutt, what you're actually telling me is that musical taste resides in the gene for skin tone. Give me a BREAK.

Now on to what the guy you replied to was Actually saying.
Why is it okay to have a "Black Person Radio", whether they play music that 90% of white kids today like or not, and NOT okay to have a "White Person Radio", Even if they play music that most Black people would like? Please, can you tell me? Few people blink an eye at "Black TV (BTV)" or heck, the Apollo Theater. But do you know the riots that would happen if those were reversed?!!

I think what a few members here are trying to convey is a little bit off topic. The thing is that prejuist runs in every direction. Perhaps under the covers and in the back of peoples minds, or in the old farts and back woods people, there exists those people that go out of their way to hinder the progress of someone of a different skin color. However the obvious in your face dividing lines of today are drawn not by people of lighter skin, but those of darker skin. My generation in my neck of the woods sees no segragation brought on by white people. In Fact as a white college student I'm keenly aware that if I were black or a women my options for scholarships would sky rocket. There isn't a soul out there that could offer a "White people only" scholarship without being sued and beaten to death. Why is that?

fyi the number one song on iTunes right now is by a black group. 3 of the top 7 artists are black artists. And one of those white artists is weird al doing a paradoy of song written by a black guy!! Notice I am talking about an artists skin color, I am not talking about the skin color of their listeners. After all, not too many black Africans would probably find Ludacris all that interesting :rolleyes:

I almost (but don't) find it funny all the talk of discrimination and prejudice, because in my generation there is very little. Social economically the adults are still throwing up lines, but every black person I know gets along dandy with every white person I know without question. There are no lines in my part of the country, in my world. Except for those lines drawn to give people of a different skin color an advantage, or to highlight the difference of skin, not the difference of culture or who a person is.

On the topic of the OP, I just have this to say. If a person is doing something to intentionally offend someone else, and does so, that is wrong. If someone does something that they know might offend someone, but they make sure they don't see it, that isn't wrong. The OP is doing something that in SOME cultures in SOME parts of the world might be found offensive by SOME people. Does that make it okay to offend those people? NO, of course not. But if he is doing it in the privacy of his own home with some friends that he knows he isn't going to offend, and he isn't doing it with any hatred in his heart, but instead to dress like an actor that he probably regaurds highly? Is this okay people? Let's get it out on the floor, does anyone REALLY think that is wrong?

Some of you guys REALLY need to chill. Not that what some of you say isn't true, but because for some reason some of you felt like launching off on the racist(!!) bandwagon without opening an ear :(

~Tyler

Brize
Oct 26, 2006, 01:08 PM
Foggy: I can only assume that radio stations targeted at Black audiences came about because it was felt that Black culture wasn't properly represented in mainstream radio. Yes, you would perhaps expect White-orientated programming to predominate in the UK, but as I've attempted to illustrate, it's unlikely that mainstream radio is representative of the general population.

Let's face it, Radio 4 could aptly be renamed as 'White, Middle-Class FM'. I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with that, but bear in mind that it's not only White, middle-class people who pay the licence fee. The overriding point here is that we don't need to label a radio station as a 'White radio station' in order for it to be so.

Earendil: I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about: I'm implying nothing that you suggest. Foggy identified that Black audiences were being expressly catered for, and argued that it wouldn't be socially acceptable for a radio station to specifically target White audiences. My point, as noted above, is that it clearly is socially acceptable, because the radio stations mentioned in my earlier post do precisely that.

I'm not suggesting that White people only listen to White music and vice-versa, but that Gospel Vibrations with DJ Fitz on Radio 1Xtra is targeted at those who identify with Black culture, whereas The Beethoven Experience on Radio 3 likely draws a predominately White audience. I think that's a fair assumption.

Earendil
Oct 26, 2006, 01:37 PM
Foggy: I can only assume that radio stations targeted at Black audiences came about because it was felt that Black culture wasn't properly represented in mainstream radio. Yes, you would perhaps expect White-orientated programming to predominate in the UK, but as I've attempted to illustrate, it's unlikely that mainstream radio is representative of the general population.

That last line there... It is inlike that mainstream radio is representative of the general population? Um? All qualms with radio content aside, how is "main stream" radio not suiting the "general" population? It has been sited that 91% of the UK is white, and you yourself say that "main stream" radio caters to white people.

Let's face it, Radio 4 could aptly be renamed as 'White, Middle-Class FM'. I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with that, but bear in mind that it's not only White, middle-class people who pay the licence fee. The overriding point here is that we don't need to label a radio station as a 'White radio station' in order for it to be so.

The point he was trying to make is that it COULDN'T be renamed that, not because it wouldn't be true, but because our society wouldn't find that okay. We can make things publically exclusive for people of a different color, unless they are white. It's a double standard. If you heard "White Radio" you'd probably think it was run by neo-nazis, the KKK, or the UK equivalent.

Earendil: I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about: I'm implying nothing that you suggest. Foggy identified that Black audiences were being expressly catered for, and argued that it wouldn't be socially acceptable for a radio station to specifically target White audiences. My point, as noted above, is that it clearly is socially acceptable, because the radio stations mentioned in my earlier post do precisely that.

He can correct me if I misinterpretted his post. But see what I write a paragraph above.
What you failed to glean from my post, is that I do not believe that Radio targets "white people" or "Black people". It targets cultures, it targets musical taste, it targets age groups. It does not target skin color.
NOW, you may find that within a culture the skin color may sway more in one direction than another. However unlike where Christianity may define a Christian culture, I do not think skin color is what defines the culture you are calling "black".
Even if you did think so, music is hardly the area to try and break down these two "cultures", and it crosses all racial lines, and in very large percentages.

I'm not suggesting that White people only listen to White music and vice-versa, but that Gospel Vibrations with DJ Fitz on Radio 1Xtra is targeted at those who identify with Black culture, whereas The Beethoven Experience on Radio 3 likely draws a predominately White audience. I think that's a fair assumption.

And that assumption makes for too many bad conclusions.
A: The content makes the music
B: I would have to be from a "black culture" to understand or appreciate gospel and DJ Fitz. If I manged to break that I would not be normal.
C: Beethoven draws white people.

Now if you don't think that musical taste is genetic, than what you are really defining is a culture, which breaks all color boundries. I don't know about the UK, but kids in the US 12-22, both black and white, are more apt to shun both Beethoven AND Gospel in favor of Emenim and Beyonce.

Now perhaps you could make the argument that radio stations run by white's are more likely to only play music by whites based SOULY on their skin color. And that Black artists need radio stations that will cater to Black artists. However since Generes are far more screwed ethnically than the audiance, that would also be a hard argument to make.

I've heard a few racial slurs in my life, I've seen a few people with a distaste for another race. I've NEVER heard anyone say "turn that artist off, he's black" or "I'd like this if it wasn't a white guy singin it".

Personally I'm going to stick to my Counting Crows, Linkin Park, Eagle Eye Cherry, Hooters, and Bob Dylan. However my room mate doesn't turn off the Rap and R&B... oh yeah, and he's about as white as they come.

~Tyler

jsw
Oct 26, 2006, 01:57 PM
I can't see how this thread can go anywhere but further down, so....