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arn
May 2, 2003, 01:05 PM
Can someone provide a human translation:

http://www.macbidouille.com/niouzcontenu.php?date=2003-05-02#5414


note there are two articles... intersted in both.

sparkleytone
May 2, 2003, 01:13 PM
i dont speak it but i can understand it well enough. i won't try to give you a translation tho. main pointsi gleaned:

new emac design
ichat with videoconferencing
970 in june.

celaurie
May 2, 2003, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by arn
Can someone provide a human translation:

http://www.macbidouille.com/niouzcontenu.php?date=2003-05-02#5414


note there are two articles... intersted in both.

Why human? Basically, both my brain and Babelfish (http://babelfish.altavista.com/) came up with the same things... give or take some sentence structure here and there... ;)

arn
May 2, 2003, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by celaurie
Why human? Basically, both my brain and Babelfish (http://babelfish.altavista.com/) came up with the same things... give or take some sentence structure here and there... ;)

there's always some things that don't make it into the autotranslation

celaurie
May 2, 2003, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by arn
there's always some things that don't make it into the autotranslation

Yeah true, but for the most part Babel is very good.

Veldek
May 2, 2003, 02:24 PM
The second article means something like that, I think:

A well-informed source told us that the first PPC 970 single processors at 1,4 GHz left production of Hon Hai. That’s excellent news because they will be available much earlier as expected (not sure on this part). The single processors will be on stock and for sale at the end of may, then the higher models (again not sure) will arrive in the middle of june, just before WWDC.

Seul bémol (?). These machines will be furnished with Mac OS X 10.2 which is not 64 bits optimized. For each purchase of one of these machines, Mac OS X 10.3 will be offered at its introduction in september. With these conditions, at least if Apple not opposes, we will have benchmarks of this machine not later than May, 15th.

(Not sure about the next, but I think means Apple employees get 30% off of G4 Pro, which indicates that this will be the end of those machines.)

HTH,
Veldek

dorleac
May 2, 2003, 02:36 PM
Here's a translation of the PPC 970 rumor...

[Rumor] The PPC 970 in advance! [ MŕJ ] - Lionel - 17:23:32

A well-informed source told us that the first PPC 970 single processors at 1.4 GHZ have left Hon Hai’s assembly lines. This is excellent news because they will be available much earlier than envisaged at the start. The single processor will be in stock and sold at the end of May, whereas the top-of-the-line [chip] will arrive mid-June, right before WWDC.

The only downside: the machines will be furnished with OSX, but not optimized with 64 bits. With every purchase of such a machine, Mac OSX 10.3 will be offered when it is ready in September. In this state, unless Apple opposes it, we will reveal the benchmarks of the machine on May 15th at the latest.

[ MŕJ ] Apple US is offering an exceptional 30% employee rebate on pro G4 models. This is the first sign of the demise of the [G4] computer. Note that the 17” iMacs are also part of Apple’s promo.

Mr. Anderson
May 2, 2003, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by dorleac
Apple US is offering an exceptional 30% employee rebate on pro G4 models. This is the first sign of the demise of the [G4] computer. Note that the 17? iMacs are also part of Apple?s promo.

I think this might be the biggest bit of news here. Imagine offering single 970s in the iMacs and duals in the PowerMacs. Wow!

D

illumin8
May 2, 2003, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by dukestreet
I think this might be the biggest bit of news here. Imagine offering single 970s in the iMacs and duals in the PowerMacs.
This might also explain why Apple has been selling so-called "Factory Refurbished" 17" iMacs for $1599 for the last few weeks. They can't have that many refurb 17" machines. Perhaps they're just trying to clear their inventory to get rid of the G4 line.

Come to think of it, look at the Apple Store right now in the refurb section and you will see almost everything in their entire G4 line is being sold as refurb. Maybe they are doing that because they know the machines will go faster that way, even though they are new machines. Those that aren't smart enough to check the refurbished machines and are going to buy now can just pay full price, but the refurb prices might make those that are sitting on the fence jump over and buy.

Smart marketing, Apple!

dstorey
May 2, 2003, 03:31 PM
If 970 iMacs come out in june thats so good news...I've been hoping for this instead of just pro lines...hopefully i'll have a job by then or sept at the latest so i can buy one of them babies...iMac would become a much better all round consumer machine then too. Stylish but also packs a punch running os x and providing a decent graphics chip gets in there it will do as well as a similar priced pc at games..well except there will be hardly any games for mac of course.

dstorey
May 2, 2003, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by sparkleytone
i dont speak it but i can understand it well enough. i won't try to give you a translation tho. main pointsi gleaned:

new emac design
ichat with videoconferencing
970 in june.

also mouse and keyboard havn't changed much

BaghdadBob
May 2, 2003, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by illumin8
Come to think of it, look at the Apple Store right now in the refurb section --

OK, stop right there, I just looked and I don't see it. Where is the refurb section?

Falleron
May 2, 2003, 05:08 PM
I hope that the 970 does come out soon. The mac platform could do with a boost to increase market share. If they were to release them now, I would buy one in January 2004. I have a Dual 1Ghz G4 which suits me fine for now.

Wano
May 2, 2003, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by BaghdadBob
OK, stop right there, I just looked and I don't see it. Where is the refurb section?

There is a little red tag in the left bottom corner of the apple store that says 'special deal'...that is where they have their refurbs.

illumin8
May 2, 2003, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by BaghdadBob
OK, stop right there, I just looked and I don't see it. Where is the refurb section?
Go to the bottom left of the store site and click on the graphic that says "Special Deals"

MM2270
May 2, 2003, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by BaghdadBob
OK, stop right there, I just looked and I don't see it. Where is the refurb section?

Look in the "Special Deals" section. It's on the lower left of the Store homepage. You'll find the refurbs there. I do have to admit, there are a lot more refurbs there right now than what one might usually see. It may be that they are working to move existing Macs as soon as possible. Guess we'll just have to wait for WWDC to find out. Thankfully the wait isn't too long now!! Bring on the 970!

iSmell
May 2, 2003, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by BaghdadBob
OK, stop right there, I just looked and I don't see it. Where is the refurb section?

It's in the lower left corner. It's a red tag that says special deals. I check this every once in a while and it does seem to have an unusually large selection right now. I'm not sure I would believe that these are brand new machines, but I guess it's possible.





Tempting, but not gonna do it.

evil
May 2, 2003, 05:15 PM
i would be all over a 970 imac..as long as the price doesnt get raised by much.

Chad4Mac
May 2, 2003, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by BaghdadBob
OK, stop right there, I just looked and I don't see it. Where is the refurb section?

I think it's on the bottom left...first SPAM post!

Easy on the multiple "special deals" posts...


Chad4Mac

york2600
May 2, 2003, 05:22 PM
30% is always what Apple offers to employees. I bought an iMac through a network admin in Sac. 30% off retail for a 15incher.

mim
May 2, 2003, 05:23 PM
Are all the slots at WWDC that are currently labelled "TBA" a sign that something likke thid release is in the works? Are there usually a lot of last minute program inclusions?

I would think it makes more sense to release the 970's before a developer's con, rather than >at< it. Even if they release it a few weeks ahead they're likely to get people queueing up to get there.

jholzner
May 2, 2003, 05:25 PM
Well, putting the 970 in the iMac would make sense...since it would further remove apple from and dependancy on moto for the G4 chip...if the powermacs and imacs get the 970 in may/june...with the power books to follow...that only leaves the eMac with a moto G4...since the iBooks use IBM's G3.

crapple33
May 2, 2003, 05:27 PM
wow. we just had four people answer baghdadbob's question with the exact same answer. lol.

pgwalsh
May 2, 2003, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by york2600
30% is always what Apple offers to employees. I bought an iMac through a network admin in Sac. 30% off retail for a 15incher. That's not entirely true. It usually ranges between 10% and 15%.

hvfsl
May 2, 2003, 05:43 PM
Its the begining of the end for the G4, come on G5 (PPC970). Apple has to call it G5 or think up a new chip name. Maybe PPC Photon Proccessors? I hope the 1.4Ghz are duals otherwise they will not be able to keep up with the P4 3Ghz let alone the dual P4HT.

jettredmont
May 2, 2003, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by york2600
30% is always what Apple offers to employees. I bought an iMac through a network admin in Sac. 30% off retail for a 15incher.


Well, unless Apple offers different deals to different employees, it is 25% on one system per year, 10% on all others ... at least, that's what my friend gets unless he's gyping his family members of that extra 5% for himself ... :)

He hasn't mentioned any bigger deals (ie, 30% off power macs, which is generally what anyone I know would be looking for) on employee purchasing, though, and I know that he hasnt used his one 25% off deal this year yet, so I'd think he'd mention it ...

FWIW, most other companies do this (heavy employee discounts) as well. I mean, Gateway even offers UPS drivers a 15% discount just because they have a special deal with UPS ...

dornball
May 2, 2003, 05:53 PM
the article in question never mentions "powermac".
this article takes every precaution to avoid saying types, such as powermac or powerbook.

this 1.4 GHz chip could be for either of the pro-type models. i do believe that apple will release a 970 in either the powerbook and powermac together ( at different speeds of ciourse), or in just the powermac model first.
the imac will not get a 970 chip. there is just no reason to put a 64-bit (though 32-bit compatible) in a consumer desktop. the 64-bit functionality of the chip would be useless. people would be paying for something that they don't even use, or know is there.
the 970 chip will be for the "pro" line only. better distinguishing the separation between the pro and consumer lines. the current high-end imac and high-end powerbook are way to similar. i am of course, mostly referring the speed of both. i know they have different memory bandwidth, FSB, L3 cache, and the fact that one is a desktop and one is a portable...etc. but the speed is too similar in perception of the public's eye. a little more separation between the two wouldn't hurt.

the discount offered to apples emploees is for "pro G4 models" which could be either powerbook or powermac.
(this is all assuming that the article is translated correctly.)

just some thoughts......

-dornball

Gus
May 2, 2003, 05:56 PM
A 64 bit chip running a 64 bit optimized OS (10.3?) would not be useless, even to consumers. I mean really, who here wouldn't want one?

Regards,
Gus

Mr.Hey
May 2, 2003, 06:01 PM
Holy Crap,

Steves on a roll

xelterran
May 2, 2003, 06:04 PM
Man.. i cant wait, if they release them in May or some time this summer then id definatly buy one!:D

iznAdiznam
May 2, 2003, 06:05 PM
Hey, I gotta chime in on this. I've read that the sales for the PowerMacs have been abysmal. With this in mind, and the fact that the apple line is way behind (in terms of technological advances, i.e. bus speed, processor speed, etc...), I would think Apple wants to get the ball rolling with the G5 (or whatever it will be called). So maybe this rumor has some merit to it.

I can only hope that the 970 rumor comes true, because I am jonesing for a new machine. I was going to get the 1.25 DP, but decided against it, as it is already almost 4 months since it was released, and a new tower must be coming along in the next few months. Instead, I upgraded my Pismo 400, to the Powerlogix G3 900Mhz upgrade. Can't wait! Very affordable, and will tide me over fine until new PowerMacs are released.

Hoping its soon,
Adam

evolu
May 2, 2003, 06:12 PM
I just bought a dual 1.4 (and 20") - hasn't even shipped yet.

I was planning on selling it before the 970 came out anyway.

I've been burned before by buying according to rumor site timelines, but -

any suggestions?

dornball
May 2, 2003, 06:15 PM
let me know when you sell that 20" display

-dornball@yahoo.com

Freg3000
May 2, 2003, 06:16 PM
Wow, this is great news. The best part is that it is May already.....so we are talking like 3 to 4 weeks here? :)

pivo6
May 2, 2003, 06:22 PM
The sooner the better I say. I'll have to tell my dad who may be in the market for a new machine come June if he can sell his old Powermac.

MacManiac1224
May 2, 2003, 06:23 PM
I am definetly going to be ready to buy one of these babies, I have been waiting for a decent chip in an Apple machine for 3 years. I am probaly going to go for the mid model, if the low model it 1.4, most likely the mid would be DP 1.6 and high DP 1.8 or DP 2.0's. We will see, this is what I am buying:

Dream Machine:
DP 1.6 PPC 970
1gig of Ram
120 gig hard drive
Superdrive
ATI 9700 128mb

Hope these powermac's are the same price's or less, or I am going to break the bank.

I think they are going to lower prices a bit, maybe just be $100 on each end to really entice people to make the jump to PPC 970's

beatle888
May 2, 2003, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by dornball
the imac will not get a 970 chip. there is just no reason to put a 64-bit (though 32-bit compatible) in a consumer desktop. the 64-bit functionality of the chip would be useless.

so i guess according to your logic apple has peaked its manufacturing of consumer computers and will stop increasing its performance? wow do you have like inside info or what?

even if at the moment consumers dont need a 64bit chip, what about all the other benefits that come with the 970? personaly i think your 100% wrong. but we will see.

evolu
May 2, 2003, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by dornball
let me know when you sell that 20" display

-dornball@yahoo.com

I'll probably hold on to the monitor - but i will upgrade to 970...

BTW - got my gear via the employee promo discount (a buddy)...

dornball
May 2, 2003, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by Gus
A 64 bit chip running a 64 bit optimized OS (10.3?) would not be useless, even to consumers.


Gus does make a good point. "useless" may have been too strong a word, and maybe just having the OS alone as 64-optimized would be enough. i just don't think it makes sense to put a new, high-end, chip (the PowerPC 970) in a consumer model right away. i think that it will hit the pro line and then eventually hit the imac. though, i honestly don't know what they would put in it for the next revision, the 1.25 Ghz that the Pmacs are using? who knows.

-dornball

TMJ1974
May 2, 2003, 06:55 PM
I'm with everyone here when I say that I can't wait to see the 970s debut.

One little "glitch" I see in this article mentions 1.4Ghz chips leaving Hon Hai....I remember IBM saying quite clearly these chips would be made in the New York facility.

Not trying to burst any bubbles...just what I remember reading.

In any event, if it's true....I'd gladly admit I'm wrong. Just don't want to get my hopes up too far.

Tim

dguisinger
May 2, 2003, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by TMJ1974
I'm with everyone here when I say that I can't wait to see the 970s debut.

One little "glitch" I see in this article mentions 1.4Ghz chips leaving Hon Hai....I remember IBM saying quite clearly these chips would be made in the New York facility.

Not trying to burst any bubbles...just what I remember reading.

In any event, if it's true....I'd gladly admit I'm wrong. Just don't want to get my hopes up too far.

Tim


Did it say chips or systems leaving that location? At this point, to release a new platform this soon, they would need systems, not just the chips.

BaghdadBob
May 2, 2003, 07:05 PM
You know, just because someone owns an iMac it does not mean they don't want or use power. I happen to use Photoshop on my iMac, and it is quite a bit zippier than my last model. I know it doesn't compare to the powermacs, but I can't afford a freakin powermac right now.

And please remember it is the ""consumer"" market where Apple is lacking customers right now. Introducing the 970s in the low-end will give them time to work on their dual or quad (dream, baby...) formations for the pros, while offering people with less free cash some more incentive to fork out for a mac instead of going to one of those $800 3Ghz Dells.

Plus, I believe it has been theorized in previous threads that Apple will try to stop using G4s as quickly as possible to distance themselves from motorola. So until the G3 gets a hell of a lot faster, this is what they've got, unless they go all 64-bit, in which case they're both obsolete.

Does anyone here have the same grudge against Mercedes drivers I do, that because they seem to have this belief that since they spent more on their car than you (assuming you don't drive an 80k+ vehicle) that you should just get out of their way and recognize how much they've paid to be on the road with you?

'nuff said.

dornball
May 2, 2003, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by dguisinger
Did it say chips or systems leaving that location? At this point, to release a new platform this soon, they would need systems, not just the chips.

agreed. i think its the chip that was manufactured in the NY facility, and a system that's leaving Hon Hai now. at least, thats what seems to make the most sense, given the rumor. and if apple does in fact plan to release it in a matter of weeks, then it would have to be assembled systems leaving the Hon Hai location.

either way, i can't wait to get a 970 machine.

-dornball

3.1416
May 2, 2003, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by Freg3000
so we are talking like 3 to 4 weeks here? :)

The most likely time for the rollout would be Steve's keynote at WWDC. That's the end of June, so about 7 weeks.

dornball
May 2, 2003, 07:34 PM
assuming the 1.4 Ghz chip is for the low-end Pmac, why would apple introduce this chip without refrshing the whole lineup.
they would have a 1.4 GHZ 970 (single processor), 1.25 GHZ G4 DP, and then for the high-end a 1.42 GHZ G4 DP. it doesn't make sense.

the more that i think about it, the more this rumor, in of itself, has many holes.

-dornball

Freg3000
May 2, 2003, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by dornball
assuming the 1.4 Ghz chip is for the low-end Pmac, why would apple introduce this chip without refrshing the whole lineup.
they would have a 1.4 GHZ 970 (single processor), 1.25 GHZ G4 DP, and then for the high-end a 1.42 GHZ G4 DP. it doesn't make sense.

the more that i think about it, the more this rumor, in of itself, has many holes.

-dornball

Well, the reason you think the rumor has "holes" is because you are making an invalid assumption in my opinion. I think a 1.4 G5 would almost definetly be the high end model-NOT the low end. Even if it is only a single processor, a G5 will need to be top dog in a mixed G4/G5 Powermac line.

dornball
May 2, 2003, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by Freg3000
Well, the reason you think the rumor has "holes" is because you are making an invalid assumption in my opinion. I think a 1.4 G5 would almost definetly be the high end model-NOT the low end. Even if it is only a single processor, a G5 will need to be top dog in a mixed G4/G5 Powermac line.

i agree with the G5 needing to be the top dog, but most people wont understand why going from a DP 1.42 Ghz to a SP 1.4 Ghz is an upgrade. well come to think of it, they are doing it with centrino....selling lower numerical speed machines as better and faster machine than the previous versions. maybe it will work, with a big help from marketing.

-dornball

BaghdadBob
May 2, 2003, 07:49 PM
OK, I need a tech buff here. The above post (edit: two up) raises a question: would a single 1.4 970 ;) be higher end than a dual 1.42 G4 just because it's 64 bit -- assuming you are using 64 bit optimized software?

I don't think so, I think you would need at least a 2.0 GHz (which we have heard is not coming yet) or a dual of the lower processors to catch up to a DP G4, but I'm not the guy to ask...

Someone with some real technical knowledge of how much of an edge optimized 64 bit processing is over 32, please share...

a9mike
May 2, 2003, 07:49 PM
I'd like to see a new 970 system debut in the next few weeks as much as anyone out there, but... Is it possible that these, slower than anticipated, chips/systems are for developers & not the public? I'd don't expect Apple to bring out a half-ass system.

Make it - give it to the developers (with a solid and immediately available yet slower 970 proc) - perfect it (including faster than 1.4 970 procs) - and then bring it out to the public in the next 4-8 months with full 64-bit support.

I don't even know if dev systems get built in Hon Hai, just a theory. Anyone who really knows have any thoughts?

Going to buy/order an iPod in about a half hour...

jettredmont
May 2, 2003, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by BaghdadBob
OK, I need a tech buff here. The above post (edit: two up) raises a question: would a single 1.4 970 ;) be higher end than a dual 1.42 G4 just because it's 64 bit -- assuming you are using 64 bit optimized software?



Look through the archives of these foums for more detail, but the quick summary: no, a single 64-bit CPU is not better than dual 32-bit processors.

However a single 970 has a lot more going for it than just 64-bit integer processing: it also has a massive front-side bus (as big as the FSB that Intel finally put on their latest P4 after a recall and much delay), and is altogether a much more advanced CPU than the G4. On SPECInt numbers (heavily skewed towards server-type CPU usage, but still useful here), the GHz G4 gets around 300, while the 1.8GHz 970 tops 1000 (i forget the exact numbers). In other words, the 970, clock for clock, is about twice as fast as the G4. And it has a much bigger pipeline feeding it (the major bottleneck in the G4 design).

So, no, a 64-bit chip is not equivalent or better than two 32-bit chips. A single 970 running at 1.4GHz, however, is definitely better than dual 1.42GHz G4s.

jettredmont
May 2, 2003, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by a9mike
I'd like to see a new 970 system debut in the next few weeks as much as anyone out there, but... Is it possible that these, slower than anticipated, chips/systems are for developers & not the public? I'd don't expect Apple to bring out a half-ass system.

Make it - give it to the developers (with a solid and immediately available yet slower 970 proc) - perfect it (including faster than 1.4 970 procs) - and then bring it out to the public in the next 4-8 months with full 64-bit support.

I'm assuming you mean external software developers here, not internal hardware engineers (who I would assume have been playing with their 970-equipped machines for some time now ...)

Coming out on the high-end PowerMac is essentially releasing it to developers. These are the machines developers buy. I doubt Apple could somehow restrict any product "just" to developers, besides just making them really expensive to buy.

arn
May 2, 2003, 08:08 PM
this rumor is a very optimistic view of the release of the 970.

we'll see...

arn

rice_web
May 2, 2003, 08:58 PM
Well, from how I read it, the low-end PowerMac would be released in the next two to four weeks, with the top-of-the-line model coming at WWDC. Firstly, did I read into that correctly? Secondly, what would be wrong with a release schedule such as this?

mxpiazza
May 2, 2003, 09:01 PM
you know, i think a fact that many people are overlooking here, is that the eMac's are going to get their speed bump to 1gHz... most likely right aside the release of the 970. looking at it that way, then the eMac being that powerful makes sense, and you wouldn't have a $1,000 educational machine outperforming professional models... upgrading the powermacs (and dare i say powerbooks?) to the 970 would clear the way for this eMac speed bump... i think looking at the rumors of the eMac speed bump provides some more stability and cerdibility to this 970 rumor. let me know what you think.

BaghdadBob
May 2, 2003, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by jettredmont
Look through the archives of these foums for more detail, but the quick summary: no, a single 64-bit CPU is not better than dual 32-bit processors.

However a single 970 has a lot more going for it than just 64-bit integer processing: it also has a massive front-side bus (as big as the FSB that Intel finally put on their latest P4 after a recall and much delay), and is altogether a much more advanced CPU than the G4. On SPECInt numbers (heavily skewed towards server-type CPU usage, but still useful here), the GHz G4 gets around 300, while the 1.8GHz 970 tops 1000 (i forget the exact numbers). In other words, the 970, clock for clock, is about twice as fast as the G4. And it has a much bigger pipeline feeding it (the major bottleneck in the G4 design).

So, no, a 64-bit chip is not equivalent or better than two 32-bit chips. A single 970 running at 1.4GHz, however, is definitely better than dual 1.42GHz G4s.

No ****? I wonder how that's going to boil down in real terms?

OK, assuming it's still true that a G4 is like 130-180% faster in benchmarks than a P4 with equivalent clock speed...if a 970 is twice as fast as a G4, well, let's cut that down to 1.5 times to assume lack of optimization or other bottlenecks or whatever...1.4Ghz*1.5*1.5...

A 1.4 GHz 970 will be equivalent to a 3.15 GHz P4? With a DP -- (assuming QP is just pure fantasy on my part)....

Where's my biffo cartoon?!? "Let's kick Intel's ass!" (We're fighting back for Mac!)

Someone shoot me down before I start pacing uncontrollably...

a9mike
May 2, 2003, 09:27 PM
Thanks jettredmont for clearing that up, and forgive my ignance...

I just find it hard to believe that with all the timelines we've seen from IBM on the chip, that they can get this thing launched this soon. Apple does have a way of suprising us though, don't they?

Also, won't they be expanding the Mhz Myth? <general public>"They already have a 1.4Ghz proc - what kind of upgrade is this new 1.4 Ghz?"</general public>

rice_web
May 2, 2003, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by BaghdadBob
No ****? I wonder how that's going to boil down in real terms?

The PowerMac G4s that are currently on the market make very little use of the second processor due to its insanely slow system bus--167MHz, and not nearly enough. But, there is definitely more to the equation. Here's a list of what I've heard from the rumor scene over the past few months concerning the 970:

- 512K L2 Cache
- 900MHz (Up To) System Bus
- 64-Bit Memory Address (for increased amounts of system memory)

This compares to 256 L2 Cache (though the G4 does have 2MB L3 cache), 167MHz system bus, and 32-bit memory addressing in Motorola's G4.

Plus, the 970 has a significantly improved architecture. The 970 uses a simpler design than the G4 could ever imagine (though, the 970 has a surprisingly complex structure, it is still a better design than the G4).

Will these advantages mean a faster system? Not necessarily. However, if 1.4 is the low-end (as some insist), it may not be a problem.

BaghdadBob
May 2, 2003, 09:33 PM
Seen many ads lately? Maybe they're saving their pennies...

Think "Q3 marketing blitz"

This year's theme: how Apple kicks all your PCs in the fatherboard...over and over again...

ffakr
May 2, 2003, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by rice_web
The PowerMac G4s that are currently on the market make very little use of the second processor due to its insanely slow system bus--167MHz
It's not like the first processor gets all the bandwidth and the second doesn't get any. ;-)

Here's a list of what I've heard from the rumor scene over the past few months concerning the 970:
You know, you can get all this directly from IBM's web site. You don't need to rely on second hand info here at the rumor sites
- 900MHz (Up To) System Bus
- 64-Bit Memory Address (for increased amounts of system memory)

This compares to... 167MHz system bus, and 32-bit memory addressing in Motorola's G4.
Well, the G4 has a 64 bit, bi-directional bus while the 970 has two single direction 32bit buses.
And, if you check Motorola's site you'll see the G4 actually has 36 bit memory addressing. I believe the G4 can natively address 64 GB of memory. The P4 also has 36bit memory addressing. This is why you can find Xeon server that support more than 4Gig of ram.

Plus, the 970 has a significantly improved architecture. The 970 uses a simpler design than the G4 could ever imagine (though, the 970 has a surprisingly complex structure, it is still a better design than the G4).

I'm confused. You are getting your info from the internet but you seem to know that the architecture of the 970 is a 'simpler design' than the G4. How so?
Did you know that the 970 is 8 way superscaler while the G4 is 5 way [i believe]? (that it can issue up to 8 instructions per clock cycle while the G4 maxes at 5) Did you know that it will have a longer pipeline than the G4? Are these examples of the simpler design?

Will these advantages mean a faster system? Not necessarily. However, if 1.4 is the low-end (as some insist), it may not be a problem.
I think it's pretty safe to say that the 970 will be much faster than the G4... even when you compare a dual G4 to a 970. The SPEC scores show about twice the performance for the 970 and there is significantly more bandwidth available to the processor. The chipset of any 970 based machine will also likely use hyperthreading [probably between north & southbridges] so the entire system will be faster.
I doubt we'd see something like a single 1Gig G4, a dual 1.25Gig G4, and a single 1.4 GHz 970 in that order though. It'd be awfully hard to market unless they portrayed the 970 machine as a workstation. I mean, IBM still demands $10,000 for Power based workstations that clock significantly lower than their P4 desktops.
I guess we'd have to wait and see....
Maybe Apple can swing it by continuing to sell the Pro towers... while introducing the new Apple Pro Workstation. Then as the 970 becomes more available, the Pro Tower goes away and it's just consumer and Workstation.
Hmnnnn??

Dave K
May 2, 2003, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by BaghdadBob

A 1.4 GHz 970 will be equivalent to a 3.15 GHz P4? With a DP -- (assuming QP is just pure fantasy on my part)....


No. The SPEC (~980 int,, ~1000 Floating Point IIRC), numbers provided by IBM were estimated for a 970 at 1.8 GHz, and have been eclipsed by a 3 GHz 533Mhz P4 setup.

Like the Athlon, however, the 970 is quite competitive at lower clocks with the P4.

Howver, one should note that SPEC scores are only valid for the exact same configuration and therefore, no one can know what the 970 will do until they get their hands on the final setup in terms of mem/motherboard/etc.

Awimoway
May 2, 2003, 10:38 PM
We shouldn't lose sight of the major increase in refurb models being offered by Apple. I know, because late last week I was shopping for a new display, so I checked Apple's refurb list. I can confirm that they were only selling 2 or 3 items a week ago.

It's also interesting to note that they are moving both displays that they currently sell. Perhaps they need to empty stock on these so that they can release redesigned displays. I know they just released new displays, but if Apple is going to make the 970 PowerMacs looks dramatically different, they would probably want the displays to match.

In any case, that's a darn fine price for a refurbed 20" Cinema display.

Snowy_River
May 2, 2003, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by Freg3000
Well, the reason you think the rumor has "holes" is because you are making an invalid assumption in my opinion. I think a 1.4 G5 would almost definetly be the high end model-NOT the low end. Even if it is only a single processor, a G5 will need to be top dog in a mixed G4/G5 Powermac line.

I think that the invalid assumption is not the one that you named. I think that, like the latest PowerMac upgrade, the low end is available for delivery first, but the higher end models are announced. So, the 1.4GHz single processor 970 machine is the low end model. I seriously doubt we'll see a mixed processor PowerMac line.

That said, something that was pointed out in another thread but hasn't been mentioned here is the fact that the Hon Hai location is where Apple has it PowerBooks made, not its PowerMacs. Could this be suggestive of a 1.4GHz 15.4" PowerBook?

(If it is, I'm sure that there are also new PowerMacs on the way. I want no one to have any misconceptions that I might be suggesting that the 970 will be released in the PowerBooks before the PowerMacs. I am not.)

BaghdadBob
May 2, 2003, 11:03 PM
No way, I don't like it. I don't want to have to got beyond the price range of the towers just to get a freakin computer I can upgrade. I don't think they will do this.

I still think that the problem of implementing the 970 into the current powermac lineup is the reason having them come in the iMacs first makes some sense, hopefully closely followed by DP version in the PowerMacs...they'll kill tower sales for a short period of time, but that's going to happen soon anyway...or maybe these are rolling out but are not scheduled to release until all the products are side-by-side, but they will have enough new macs to produce that they are getting a head start with the iMac.

Just speculation.

But I can't imagine Apple actually taking a step backwards in the issue of upgradability by eliminating powermacs and giving people the choice between an as-you-bought-it iMac and an even more expensive upper line with no middle ground. They lose enough sales this way already.

Edit:
Could this be suggestive of a 1.4GHz 15.4" PowerBook?
Crap, snowy, how much of a titanic earth-shattering crush-the-competition roll do you expect them capable of? If this is the speculation then I am standing by my Quad 970 :D (or G5, if you're a SpyMac type).

Not that I don't like this kind of thinking.

steveh
May 2, 2003, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by TMJ1974
I'm with everyone here when I say that I can't wait to see the 970s debut.

One little "glitch" I see in this article mentions 1.4Ghz chips leaving Hon Hai....I remember IBM saying quite clearly these chips would be made in the New York facility.

IBM makes the CPU, they don't make the Apple systems. They would ship the chips to Hon Hai to put in the machines for Apple.

Actually, sounds to me like a batch of beta machines being built by Hon Hai for Apple to test before production ramps up.

It would be about right for a January product introduction.

rice_web
May 2, 2003, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by ffakr
And, if you check Motorola's site you'll see the G4 actually has 36 bit memory addressing. I believe the G4 can natively address 64 GB of memory. The P4 also has 36bit memory addressing. This is why you can find Xeon server that support more than 4Gig of ram.

I didn't actually realize that the G4 offered 36-bit memory addressing. Well hell, that'd offer 16 times the memory capacity of 32-bit. So do we actually need 64-bit (which theoretically slows down due to the larger amounts of data being pushed)?

I'm confused. You are getting your info from the internet but you seem to know that the architecture of the 970 is a 'simpler design' than the G4. How so?
Did you know that the 970 is 8 way superscaler while the G4 is 5 way [i believe]? (that it can issue up to 8 instructions per clock cycle while the G4 maxes at 5) Did you know that it will have a longer pipeline than the G4? Are these examples of the simpler design?

ArsTechnica ran a set of nice stories a while back that detailed the 970 very well. Yes, the 970 is far more complex, but ArsTechnica called it an elegant design--obviously not verbatim--and one that is a much better structure than the G4. I'll have to re-read the articles, but the folks at ArsTechnica had great things to say about the 970.

rice_web
May 2, 2003, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by Snowy_River
I think that the invalid assumption is not the one that you named. I think that, like the latest PowerMac upgrade, the low end is available for delivery first, but the higher end models are announced. So, the 1.4GHz single processor 970 machine is the low end model. I seriously doubt we'll see a mixed processor PowerMac line.

That said, something that was pointed out in another thread but hasn't been mentioned here is the fact that the Hon Hai location is where Apple has it PowerBooks made, not its PowerMacs. Could this be suggestive of a 1.4GHz 15.4" PowerBook?

(If it is, I'm sure that there are also new PowerMacs on the way. I want no one to have any misconceptions that I might be suggesting that the 970 will be released in the PowerBooks before the PowerMacs. I am not.)

Hon Hai only produces PowerBooks? Do we know the exact details of the Hon Hai facility? I honestly don't know, but I'd think from the articles at Tom's Hardware that Apple moves from one manufacturer to the next quite often, and the street doesn't hear about it immediately. Perhaps Hon Hai is now producing the PowerMac.

NavyIntel007
May 2, 2003, 11:42 PM
Dude, I was all about to get a new powerbook sometime this summer but all this talk about the 970 has me wondering if I should just get a desktop, especially if the iMacs go 970. That's probably unlikely but it would be more bang for my buck and portability is something I already have with the Palm T|C. Oh god, choices... it was much easier when it was between the $1800 iBook 500 or the $3000 powerbook 500.

JtheLemur
May 3, 2003, 12:31 AM
Hmm. Am I the only one who wants (in addition to 970s of course) a new ENCLOSURE??! PLEASE Apple, PLEASE retire the Captain! Arggghy! =D

Snowy_River
May 3, 2003, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by BaghdadBob

Crap, snowy, how much of a titanic earth-shattering crush-the-competition roll do you expect them capable of? If this is the speculation then I am standing by my Quad 970 :D (or G5, if you're a SpyMac type).

Not that I don't like this kind of thinking.

Well, I can dream. And hope. I am going to be getting a new PowerBook once the new ones come out (whether they are G4 or 970), so I like to speculate on the prospects of a really killer new PowerBook.

And, no, I'm not a SpyMac type. I won't call it anything but a 970 until I hear 'G5' (or some other name) from Apple.

Rincewind42
May 3, 2003, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by rice_web
I didn't actually realize that the G4 offered 36-bit memory addressing. Well hell, that'd offer 16 times the memory capacity of 32-bit. So do we actually need 64-bit (which theoretically slows down due to the larger amounts of data being pushed)?


Because 36-bit addressing is extremely awkward. It's like trying to bring in a dozen bags of groceries when you can only carry 10. If your going to manipulate a memory address, you have to carry around the extra bits somewhere, even if they aren't going to change very often. It generally amounts to greater inefficiency than just going all the way to 64-bit. As for theoretical slow downs, it depends highly on the system architecture. In many cases carrying around more than 33-63 bits is just as expensive/messy as carrying around 64, so you might as well carry all 64 and get the extra functionality that go with it.

Wyrm
May 3, 2003, 01:27 AM
Ha ha - so it looks like we've already decided for Apple to use the 970. Well, I must admit, it is the most impressive public processor that Apple could use. Let's hope they think the same.

Does anyone remember the Power 601 rollout? I guess that was even worse, since it was a totally different CPU ISA - did Apple change all lines (albeit much smaller at the time) at once?

The interesting thing is they could roll out the 970 with the present 32 bit OS (heck they rolled out Duallies before they had an OS that could really use it - well OS X was public beta at the time) and it should still be faster than what they have. I guess they'd have a new chipset to support - but they've snuck stuff like that in pretty quickly - like the 17" PowerBook.

I for one, would be up for a PowerMac with the rumored CPU - it's just too cool to pass up.

-Wyrm

Dave Marsh
May 3, 2003, 01:36 AM
Apple's next big meeting is the WWDC at the Moscone Center in late June, isn't it? Wasn't this conference delayed a month and moved to this venue?

I don't see Steve releasing a new 970-anything without his parading on stage to compare it to G4s and P4s, and that suggests to me no public mention of the 970s until the WWDC, whether they're stacked in warehouses in May or not.

As much as I'd like to see them sooner, I don't see it happening. So, for now, I'm much more interested in hearing more details about Apple's implementation of the 970 on their new motherboards. It's MacBidouille's ~May 15 tech teaser that's now got my attention.:p

dorleac
May 3, 2003, 01:39 AM
Arn,

Seeing my translation again on the site prompts me to make a few small edits. Also, apostrophes and the like are not appearing correctly in the rumor on the home page.


[Rumor] The PPC 970 in advance! [MŕJ] - Lionel - 17:23:32

A well-informed source has told us that the first PPC 970 single processors, [clocked] at 1.4 GHZ, have left Hon Hai’s assembly lines. This is excellent news because they will be available much earlier than envisaged at the outset. The single processor will be in stock and for sale at the end of May, whereas the top-of-the-line [chip] will arrive mid-June, right before WWDC.

The only downside: the machines will be furnished with OSX, but not optimized with 64 bits. With every purchase of such a machine, Mac OSX 10.3 will be offered when it is ready in September. In this [current] configuration, unless Apple opposes it, we will reveal the benchmarks of the machine on May 15th at the latest.

[MŕJ] Apple US is offering an exceptional 30% employee discount on pro G4 models. It is, in theory, a sign of the demise of the [G4] computer. Note that the 17” iMacs are also part of Apple’s promo.

Regards,
Dorleac

WD-40
May 3, 2003, 02:03 AM
MacBidouille has been known to get *WAY* ahead of themselves in the past. The most glaring example is January 2002 when they predicted PowerMac lines of 1.2 Gig, 1.4 Gig, and dual-1.4 Gig. Yes, that's close to the current lines, but this was predicted for 16 months ago, not now.

$749 for an eMac on the refurb list. Hmmm, I just wish I had the cash.

C14ru5
May 3, 2003, 02:12 AM
Originally posted by Wyrm
Does anyone remember the Power 601 rollout? I guess that was even worse, since it was a totally different CPU ISA - did Apple change all lines (albeit much smaller at the time) at once?The PowerMacs (6100/7100/8100) all came rolling out at once. Apple offered PowerPC upgrades for the PowerBook 520/540. The rest of the line was either Quadra or LC040. The Performas and PowerBook 5300s came out a year later when the PPC603 was available.

laodamas
May 3, 2003, 02:14 AM
I believe the G4 can natively address 64 GB of memory.

Yes, the G4 can address 64GB of memory. Unfortunately 32bit addresses make this difficult. The OS would need to internally represent every memory location as 64bit, causing significant performance reduction and resident system memory bloat. The Xeon is able to accomplish 36bit addressing in a slightly more graceful way due to the x86's segmented memory model. This effectively involves bank switching - the OS running on a Xeon can only utilise 4GB of memory at a time, but can swap banks (with a performance penalty) in order to effectively increase the addressable memory size.

Are these examples of the simpler design?

Yes and no. PPC970 represents individual instructions in a simpler manner, utilising a concept similar to the P4's crack and decode method to product micro-ops. The internal state of the PPC970 is much more complex than existing G4 designs.

The PowerMac G4s that are currently on the market make very little use of the second processor due to its insanely slow system bus--167MHz, and not nearly enough.

This is not exactly true. Both CPUs can run very efficiently once code is cached in their individual L3's. What causes most of the performance problems in the duals is keeping the caches coherent between the CPUs. Memory traffic is a secondary concern. Remember that memory runs at 133MHz while the CPUs runs at 1GHz+. On a similar note: the reason why we have not seen quad G4 workstations is because the G4 IPC Bus (Inter Processor Communication) performs poorly when more than two processors are connected to it. The PPC970 fixes this problem. :)

I congratulate the Apple Engineer(s) who routed the 970's 900MHz FSB on the upcoming apple mobos.

MacWhispers
May 3, 2003, 02:52 AM
I will not elaborate on the following statement. I will just make it and drift quietly away: Hon Hai (Elitegroup) is not manufacturing the upcoming 970 PowerMacs. In fact, Elitegroup has nothing to do with any portion of this product, at all, in even the most minor way.

This entire MacBidouille piece is completely fabricated from air.

cb911
May 3, 2003, 04:08 AM
Originally posted by MacWhispers
I will not elaborate on the following statement. I will just make it and drift quietly away: Hon Hai (Elitegroup) is not manufacturing the upcoming 970 PowerMacs. In fact, Elitegroup has nothing to do with any portion of this product, at all, in even the most minor way.

This entire MacBidouille piece is completely fabricated from air.


you won't elaborate or explain youreself? then i think that most people here will just take a momentarily glance at your post...

this rumor of the 970's is a very promising one, then you just come along and say it's false? what the!!???:eek: :confused:

Shaktai
May 3, 2003, 04:09 AM
macbidouille just posted this correction. This sounds a bit more reasonable.
Google Translation:
A mistake in interpretation slipped into the news of yesterday.

The PPC 970 will be shown with the developers with the WWDC and the public the following semane (week?). It will be on sale immediately
But unquestionable APPLE of its planetary success will start to make large stocks and to distribute them on the planętre as of the end May.

dekator
May 3, 2003, 05:31 AM
Originally posted by celaurie
Why human? Basically, both my brain and Babelfish (http://babelfish.altavista.com/) came up with the same things... give or take some sentence structure here and there... ;)
Because a human translation is always infinitely superior. Also, if you don't understand the source language you can never be sure whether the automated translation is correct. So, yes, if you understand the text + find the machine translation +- okay, there you go. But then you have to understand the stuff in the first place. So you always have to check humanly.
BTW, I have yet to see a text that was accurately translated by a machine. As for minor details, even those can confuse. Lastly, for me, language is also about (a)esthetics.
This is what I got from Babelfish (excerpt):
"Only flat. These machines will be provided with Mac OS X 10.2 not optimized 64 Bits. For any purchase of such a machine, Mac OS X 10.3 will be offered to its exit in September. Under these conditions, has less than APPLE is not opposed to it, we will reveal the benchmarks machine at the latest on May 15."
Okay, what does "only flat" mean ? What does the last sentence mean ? I don't think one could know from this "translation". Okay, a human translation has already been given. If your brain came up with more or less the same, I pity you. Well, okay, I think you're having us on anyway...

Titian
May 3, 2003, 05:41 AM
Well guys,
it seems that lot of you get excited again about rumors. I just wanted to ask you: when is the last time that Apple fulfilled the expectations of the Apple community? Maybe a few decades ago. Maybe.
Do you really think that things will change? I suppose in June we will read again lot of disappointed members.

And another small point:
since it seems that over here messages of macbidouille are very often read, interpretated, commented from members who don't have absolutely no knowledge of french, wouldn't you think that instead of spending time on surfing around, it would be more usefull to learn a little bit of french? :D

dekator
May 3, 2003, 05:42 AM
Originally posted by Shaktai
macbidouille just posted this correction. This sounds a bit more reasonable.
Google Translation:
Human translation:
A translation error has sneaked into yesterday's news.

The PPC 970 will be shown to developers at the WWDC and to the public a week later (semane is a typo in the original for "semaine").
It will be available for purchase right away.
But Apple, sure of its overwhelming (planet-wide) success, will create some stocks in order to unleash them all over the planet at the end of May.

Sorry for this error in translation.

dongmin
May 3, 2003, 06:44 AM
Originally posted by dekator
...unleash them all over the planet at the end of May.
Sounds quite ominous...


Regarding Hon Hai:

I just did a quick google search for Hon Hai. Their registered trademark name is Foxconn. I'm not sure where 'EliteGroup' comes in. Hon Hai's primary markets, according to their website, are connectors for PCs, cables, and enclosures. One interesting note: under 'enclosures', they have an image of the original G3 Smurf case (http://www.foxconn.com/about/pc.asp).

OK I just found a story from 2002 that reports that Hon Hai manufactures motherboards for Dell (http://www.taiwanheadlines.gov.tw/20011227/20011227b7.html). They've been aggressively trying to expand to other markets, like assembling PCs and notebooks and manufacturing cellphones.

Ensign Paris
May 3, 2003, 06:57 AM
hmm, i wonder who else predicted / has info about this.

Ensign

bikertwin
May 3, 2003, 06:59 AM
Originally posted by Titian
Well guys,
it seems that lot of you get excited again about rumors. I just wanted to ask you: when is the last time that Apple fulfilled the expectations of the Apple community? Maybe a few decades ago. Maybe.
Do you really think that things will change? I suppose in June we will read again lot of disappointed members.


Last fall, few people were seriously expecting 15" PowerBooks with 1 GHz processors and SuperDrives. Apple delivered.

January (MacWorld) was widely anticipated to be a no-show show, with little in the way of updates. Yet Steve produced 12" and 17" PowerBooks, Keynote, and (the only things that really were expected) Safari & iLife.

In April, Apple blew everyone away again with Final Cut Pro 4 and DVD Studio Pro 2.

Oh, and by the way, did you happen to hear about THE ONLY SUCCESSFUL LEGAL ONLINE MUSIC DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM?! Just a little thing.

What planet do you live on--Depression & Denial? :-)

Titian
May 3, 2003, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by bikertwin
Last fall, few people were seriously expecting 15" PowerBooks with 1 GHz processors and SuperDrives. Apple delivered.

January (MacWorld) was widely anticipated to be a no-show show, with little in the way of updates. Yet Steve produced 12" and 17" PowerBooks, Keynote, and (the only things that really were expected) Safari & iLife.

In April, Apple blew everyone away again with Final Cut Pro 4 and DVD Studio Pro 2.

Oh, and by the way, did you happen to hear about THE ONLY SUCCESSFUL LEGAL ONLINE MUSIC DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM?! Just a little thing.

What planet do you live on--Depression & Denial? :-)

If you are happy about that hardware then good for you. If didn't help much for Apple to close the gap to the PC's and no further it help to increase much the sales. These updates are just cosmetics my friend.
About the software you are right: Apple is doing great things, better than anyone else.

About music distribution: nice diversification of computer business and of course very nice way of earning money on music. I also must say that I am a music lover, for me quality is very important and at the moment the quality of digital music is far away from the quality of analogue. But this is another issue which should be put in a music forum. In other words for me music isn't a tissue to be used one day and to be thrown away after it was used 100 times.
But I suppose most of the people think differently. ;-)

cheers

leo
May 3, 2003, 08:55 AM
It might be true that some PPC 970-based systems have left the assembly lines. But that doesn't mean these are destined for the mass-market (sure, I don't have actual info on quantities).
I for one am absolutely sure that these are testing-platforms for seeding to a broader circle of developers. The new chip is code-compatible, yes, but because of the new architecture, i believe new and existing software can greatly benefit from optimization.
For me, the future scenario looks like this:
Apple shows off some PowerPC 970 demos at WWDC in june and supplies developers with public info and some with testing-platforms.
Public availability will follow in September, along with a 64-bit-OS (10.3).
This will crush sales of PM G4 for some two months. But, from what I have learnt, sales can't be much lower than they are now. This way however, Apple can eventually provide a better product to the customer.

What do you think?

MacsRgr8
May 3, 2003, 09:04 AM
Apple keeps coming up with wonderful things, and yes, they keep on suprising us.
But.... the ONE thing which is most rumored/talked about (the last couple of years even), has never come.... and that's the successor of the G4.
Starting just before MWSF 2002 people at Apple discussion/rumors sites have been speculating, and also expecting the "G5". Ofourse "it" (must be PPC 970) will come eventually, and the WWDC event this June sounds like the right time and place for it.
So a 1.4 GHz PPC 970-Mac is ready this May? Fine, just keep it where it is....
And let Apple surprize us once again with 10.3 (64 bits) AND the 970-Mac this June.
And just for the MHz-myth issue.... let the low-end start at 1.5 Ghz, please. :)

pkradd
May 3, 2003, 10:08 AM
Of course Hon Hai doesn't make the PPC 970 chip. They receive them from the vendor (and other components as well) and assemble and manufacature the various internal boards for the Macs.

JJTiger1
May 3, 2003, 10:58 AM
Apple has to make me drool over a new computer before I buy a new computer.
-
Last night at the iPod show at the local Apple Store: iPod is a kick@ss JukeBox driving JBL speakers on tripod jackstands.

The dual 1.4ghz TowerMac driving dual flatpanel displays is nice compared to my QuickSilver-733. But drooling was not initiated.
-
The QS-733 caused drooling when compared to the 6500/250 upgraded to G3-400.
-
The 6500/250 caused drooling when compared to the Performa 630-CD.
-
The Performa 630-CD caused drooling when compared to the MacSE30.
-
The MacSE30 with dual B&W monitors caused drooling when compared to the Mac Plus.
-
The Mac Plus caused drooling.
-
I want front panel access to USB and FireWire ports.
I want front panel access to a Zip Drive.
I want front panel access to dual optical drives.
-
C'mon Apple, make the new TowerMac really fast fast fast. Make the new TowerMac with useful features, like USB and FireWire plugins on the front panel so that I don't have to turn the tower around.

Make me wanna new TowerMac!! :D
-
JJ

macrumors12345
May 3, 2003, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by MacWhispers
I will not elaborate on the following statement. I will just make it and drift quietly away: Hon Hai (Elitegroup) is not manufacturing the upcoming 970 PowerMacs. In fact, Elitegroup has nothing to do with any portion of this product, at all, in even the most minor way.

This entire MacBidouille piece is completely fabricated from air.

Um, I thought Hon Hai == Foxconn, and Elitegroup is a separate company. Unless they recently merged? But I couldn't find any evidence of that.

Supposedly Elitegroup is no longer making Apple products, but they appear to be a separate company from Hon Hai:

http://www.digitimes.com/Backgrounders/ecs.asp?view=article&datePublish=2003/04/02&pages=02&seq=4

beatle888
May 3, 2003, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by Titian

cheers

yeah right. i think he had you pinned in his earlier response.:rolleyes:

maynard
May 3, 2003, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by laodamas
Yes, the G4 can address 64GB of memory. Unfortunately 32bit addresses make this difficult. The OS would need to internally represent every memory location as 64bit, causing significant performance reduction and resident system memory bloat. The Xeon is able to accomplish 36bit addressing in a slightly more graceful way due to the x86's segmented memory model. This effectively involves bank switching - the OS running on a Xeon can only utilise 4GB of memory at a time, but can swap banks (with a performance penalty) in order to effectively increase the addressable memory size.

Just a minor nit: PAE addressing in the MMU of a PPRO or above processor doesn't really 'bank switch' in the traditional sense, since old bank switching tricks usually worked by mapping an addressable memory window across the total memory area by scribbling on a set of mapping bits at a specific memory cell (or sometimes an offset register as with the PDP-11). The processor was completely unaware of the bank switching hardware (otherwise the memory would be directly accessible) and as such block transfers, jumps, pointers, etc. were completely impossible between memory segments. Usually one would reserve a buffer window for transferring data from one segment to the next. This is how most 8 bit systems handled greater than 64KB of ROM/RAM... systems like the old Apples, C-128, a variety of CP/M boxes like the old Kaypro, etc.

The original 8088 in the IBM PC could directly address 1MB (20 bits of address lines) of RAM, but because of an internally brain damaged design, it divided the address space into 16 bit regions Intel called 'segments'. Essentially, it was a 20 bit memory space externally with a 16 bit internal path. Moving data, handing pointers, and executing conditional jumps between segments was an exercise in frustration (to put it mildly), but possible. The stack was always available across segments though.

PAE is different. Internally a PPRO and above processor can only represent 32 bits of address space but the processor can address 36 bits worth of pages across it's pins, for a physical space of 64GB. The OS kernel and each process must still fit within a 4GB VM window. Usually this is handled by setting up a 36 bit page table in kernel space and then mapping pages per process into and out of that window. The processor can't really address more than 32 bits internally, but unlike old bank switching one needn't copy data bank and forth between banks in a common buffer since access to the total address space is simply a matter of setting a page table entry. So, unlike with bank switching the processor can represent 36 bits worth of pages for mapping into the 32 bit window directly - though for interprocess communication one must still copy data into kernel space and then back out to pages associated with each process - an expensive operation in context switching. Old bank switching could never perform these tricks since those old processors didn't even have an MMU to speak of - never mind pages, memory protection bits, etc.

As a side note, one person suggested that 36 bit architectures are inherently more performance expensive than 32 bit. This is not true. Old DEC System 10 and 20 boxes were fully 36 bit back in the late sixties through the early eighties with no performance penalty due to their memory bus sizes. These systems generally implemented 6 bit bytes, hence a 36 bit bus.

OK this is getting seriously offtopic. Getting back to message - yeah, I want a PPC970 based mac too! :) --M

flyfish29
May 3, 2003, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by crapple33
wow. we just had four people answer baghdadbob's question with the exact same answer. lol.


Yeah, but did you realize all four of those replies were made within about 4 minutes time...enjoy the refurb. list while it is there...will vanish soon as it always does!

praetorian_x
May 3, 2003, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by ffakr
I'm confused. You are getting your info from the internet but you seem to know that the architecture of the 970 is a 'simpler design' than the G4. How so?
Did you know that the 970 is 8 way superscaler while the G4 is 5 way [i believe]? (that it can issue up to 8 instructions per clock cycle while the G4 maxes at 5) Did you know that it will have a longer pipeline than the G4? Are these examples of the simpler design?


Quite correct. The 970 design, as described on arstechnica is very complex, much more so than the current g4s.

Originally posted by ffakr
I think it's pretty safe to say that the 970 will be much faster than the G4... even when you compare a dual G4 to a 970. The SPEC scores show about twice the performance for the 970 and there is significantly more bandwidth available to the processor. The chipset of any 970 based machine will also likely use hyperthreading [probably between north & southbridges] so the entire system will be faster.


Hyperthreading, as I understand it (and certainly as Intel is advertizing it) is a processor trick rather than a northbridge/southbridge trick: allowing threads access to chip functionality that the current active thread isn't using. I have never seen HT technology mentioned with respect to the 970 except in "possible future 980 development" contexts. Furthermore, the jury is still out on the overall benefits of this technology. (IIRC, shorter pipelined designs don't get the boost that an insanely deep design like the p4 does.)

Originally posted by ffakr
I doubt we'd see something like a single 1Gig G4, a dual 1.25Gig G4, and a single 1.4 GHz 970 in that order though. It'd be awfully hard to market unless they portrayed the 970 machine as a workstation. I mean, IBM still demands $10,000 for Power based workstations that clock significantly lower than their P4 desktops.

Power chips are a different thing entirely than the 970. They are huge, with huge caches and often with multicores. Given the die size of the 970 (I've seen conflicting reports, but it seems to be a bit bigger than the g4), there is no reason to suspect that we won't be seeing it in the powermacs and powerbooks at around current pricing.

There is also the question of cache. Right now g4s are expensive because, due to the slow FSB, they have massive l3 caches. The 970 won't need this because of its fat pipes. This will further reduce cost, unless IBM decides to use this cost for other (perhaps faster) cache.

Cheers,
prat

aethier
May 3, 2003, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by Veldek
then the higher models (again not sure)
Seul bémol (?).

(Not sure about the next, but I think means Apple employees get 30% off of G4 Pro, which indicates that this will be the end of those machines.)

HTH,
Veldek

All in all thats a good translation... "then the higher models (again not sure) " its actualy they are saying top of the line

"Seul Bémol" means "the only dilema"

this you did all good on (Not sure about the next, but I think means Apple employees get 30% off of G4 Pro, which indicates that this will be the end of those machines.)

aethier

rog
May 3, 2003, 02:28 PM
I can't remember, but has this site so far been right about anything?

XnavxeMiyyep
May 3, 2003, 02:59 PM
They predicted the release date of the 17" 1 GHz iMac. Probably other stuff too, but I'm new to the site.

macrumors12345
May 3, 2003, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by praetorian_x
I have never seen HT technology mentioned with respect to the 970 except in "possible future 980 development" contexts.

No, he meant HyperTransport.

BaghdadBob
May 3, 2003, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by Titian
Well guys,
it seems that lot of you get excited again about rumors

Well, ka-DUH! What did you think, this is MacConcreteFacts.com?

cb911
May 3, 2003, 06:05 PM
i can see the benefits of getting the 970 out there as soon as possible - that would mean Apple could catch up with the PC world as soon as possible.

but if they can't get it out soon, like in the next month or two, then it would make some sense to announce it so that companies would know for sure it's coming and might hold off purchasing a new batch of PC's and switch to Macs with the 970.

Mr.Hey
May 3, 2003, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by Titian
Well guys,
it seems that lot of you get excited again about rumors. I just wanted to ask you: when is the last time that Apple fulfilled the expectations of the Apple community? Maybe a few decades ago. Maybe.

Fare question and again like many have said here you're wrong. If you were a true Apple aficionado and have been following and using their hardware/software on a daily basis and see from example what this hardware/software actually does for one and how it helps and contributes to your life, you'd understand. But if you're a novice or PC centric user and have not applied it and used it for its intended purpose you're not going to appreciate the Macintosh and OS X truly and know its worth.

Now let me ask you a question
Q.When is the last time you heard of a hardware+softare/ music service provider include the most popular mp3 player/ movie production - dvd authoring/ Digital photography/photography/ photo-retouching/ photo-printing / Advertising / TV production/ Movie Production/ Fashion design/ Education/ company, do ANYTHING to fulfill the expectations and needs of anyone.

MacWhispers
May 3, 2003, 08:38 PM
Mental lapse in a hurried post: Hon Hai = Foxconn, not Elitegroup.

It's still not where the PowerMacs are being assembled.

Gyroscope
May 3, 2003, 09:33 PM
The only downside: the machines will be furnished with OSX, but not optimized with 64 bits. With every purchase of such a machine, Mac OSX 10.3 will be offered when it is ready in September. In this state, unless Apple opposes it, we will reveal the benchmarks of the machine on May 15th at the latest.


Think that these MacBidoul. PPC 970 rumors are absolute crap.
During PPC 970 presentation Peter Sandon has said that some changes are needed to 32-bit OS in order to work with 970. So there is absolutley no way that it could work outta box with Jaguar.

:mad:

Shaktai
May 3, 2003, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by Gyroscope
During PPC 970 presentation Peter Sandon has said that some changes are needed to 32-bit OS in order to work with 970. So there is absolutley no way that it could work outta box with Jaguar.

:mad: [/B]

Nobody has said it would work "out of the box" with the current Jaguar, but it has also been indicated that the modifications needed to Jaguar to allow it to run on the 970 in 32 bit mode, are relatively minor and would require minimal development resources.

Jaguar as it is today? No. A modified Jaguar? Yes. It wouldn't be the first time Apple has modified a current OS to enable it for a new processor. We will have to wait for Panther to get the full power of the 970, but even a modified Jaguar running on a 970 system should provide a substantial performance boost over current systems.

Gyroscope
May 3, 2003, 11:46 PM
Nobody has said it would work "out of the box" with the current Jaguar, but it has also been indicated that the modifications needed to Jaguar to allow it to run on the 970 in 32 bit mode, are relatively minor and would require minimal development resources.

Well we can only speculate about the extent of these modifications. I must agree with you that this wouldn't be first time Apple has done so. I remember when System 7.1 came out it was modified only few months(if not even days) after its release (7.1.2) to support PPC. As I herard back then. It was all work of one single person who wrote that PPC enabler. Somehow, this time I have feeling that first PPC 970 enabled OS will be Panther (or whatever that may be called).

Rustus Maximus
May 4, 2003, 12:44 AM
Isn't Panther (10.3) also debuting at WWDC? This is for developers...to get their hands on these 970 boxes and start optimizing their programs for them. I just don't see a public May release for these guys...much less a June 'planet wide' conquest with these things. This will be the first peek, to start the hype.

Production will then ramp up...with a full blown intro and product line unveiling in January 2004. 20 years after the last shattering of Orwellian (wintel) domination (see 1984 commercial)...only this time let's hope they do it right ;) . Anyway...from a marketing standpoint, it is perfect.

I hope I'm wrong, I'd like to have one of the 2.0 GHz 970's running FCP 4, Maya in June. Maybe they will surprise me, either way it's going to be a fun next 6 months :D

BaghdadBob
May 4, 2003, 02:22 AM
Originally posted by Rustus Maximus
20 years after the last shattering of Orwellian (wintel) domination (see 1984 commercial)...

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that aimed at IBM at the time?

Assuming I'm not totally off base...isn't it ironic? Doncha think? It's like raiaaaaaaaain, on yer wedding day...sort of. :D

Titian
May 4, 2003, 02:32 AM
Originally posted by Mr.Hey
If you were a true Apple aficionado and have been following and using their hardware/software on a daily basis and see from example what this hardware/software actually does for one and how it helps and contributes to your life, you'd understand. But if you're a novice or PC centric user and have not applied it and used it for its intended purpose you're not going to appreciate the Macintosh and OS X truly and know its worth.

Good question, I understand what you mean. I was working in the development department for a company which received one of the first try out model of Macintosh II (two guys were constantly there watching that we didn't open the computer). Since then I never left Apple, my heart beats for Apple and I always updated my computer every 3-5 years. I was at that time one of the very few Mac user in Switzerland and I remember my friends were constantly laughing about it. I am also the very first client of the now biggest Apple seller in Switzerland.
Nevertheless I am an Apple fan I try to see things from a neutral point of view. Of course a "neutral" point of view doen't exists because anyway either the heart or the lack of knowledge and information has an important part in any point of view.

Now let me ask you a question
Q.When is the last time you heard of a hardware+softare/ music service provider include the most popular mp3 player/ movie production - dvd authoring/ Digital photography/photography/ photo-retouching/ photo-printing / Advertising / TV production/ Movie Production/ Fashion design/ Education/ company, do ANYTHING to fulfill the expectations and needs of anyone.

I think that Apple is doing a super job in software which no other software company is beating (I think I wrote this in my previous message). The overall performance of the hardware is instead behind everybody and Apple knows that.
Lots of us blame Motorola but it is Apple choice to choose that processor. I beleve that Apple's strategy is to keep being (slightly) behind the performances of the competitors so that they can bring constantly hardware updates which they could bring out months before. I believe when I read forums that Apple has "brain washed" their customers (please do not take this as an offense: I am also an Apple fan). Apple has learnt how to manipulate their customers, giving them just the minimum to keep them. The conferences, anouncements and communication policy is another part in the chain... What I feel is that there is not enough pressure from the Apple customers to the company as there is for example in the PC world. We are very easily satisfied and this doesn't help the development on the hardware side.
Will the PPC 970 PowerMac change the situation: I believe no, because you can sell more with several small updates than with one big one especially when the users feel always satisfied. I just hope I am wrong. One thing I know: Apple is not so stupid.

Sorry if my english is not academic: I suppose I should also learn more english if I want to write in english forums. :D

BaghdadBob
May 4, 2003, 02:53 AM
That's a bunch of crap.

Sorry, but no one around here is satisfied with the level of hardware performance Apple has put out in quite some time. And correct me if I'm wrong, but even though they were more expensive as usual, there was a time when Apple was keeping up with the Pentiums. Brief, but there.

And it's not just as simple as "choosing" a processor, unless you want them to go intel compatible -- which wouldn't be simple by any leap either. Motorola did an okay job for a while, I think we all had expectations from them that they had no intentions of living up to.

Now they've partnered up with Big Blue against a common enemy, and I don't believe they are trying to keep behind the competition.

I mean, for christ's sake, we used to have a ten percent market share. You think this is healthy in any way for the company? Is Jobs trying to thin the herd so he can have only the truly loyal in his cult?

Come on, none of that makes any sense.

pfranzen
May 4, 2003, 05:56 AM
I thnik that your argument regarding the incremental upgrades is flawed. I dont think that Apple is only interested in keeping hold of its customers in this way. It would be far far better for apple to come out with superior hardware and software in order to grab a bigger market share. THIS is where they will make alot of money in the future. Not just hanging on as youd suggest...

Have a nice one...

chabig
May 4, 2003, 08:03 AM
Originally posted by dornball
just don't think it makes sense to put a new, high-end, chip (the PowerPC 970) in a consumer model right away.

If they could do it a good price, it makes infinite sense. Power users know the Mac is a good machine--competitive with and often superior to Wintel machines. But it's the average consumer Apple needs to reach to grow its market.

HasanDaddy
May 4, 2003, 08:20 AM
Out of curiousity, how come MacBid's rumors always end up on the front page, whereas LoopRumors and Macwhispers are always on Page 2??

Does Arn have extra faith in them?

ktlx
May 4, 2003, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by Gyroscope
Well we can only speculate about the extent of these modifications.

We do not have to speculate too much. IBM has said the modifications to get a 32-bit OS currently running on a PPC to work on the 970 are minimal. It sounds like, from their slides, you basically have to set some registers on the CPU to tell it to run in 32-bit compatibility mode.

I would imagine that, like most port jobs, the majority of the work is in the testing and not the programming.

Personally I think the rumors make a lot of sense. If Apple and IBM are going to be ready to move the PowerMac line to the 970 this fall or winter, they are going to want to get early machines the hands of developers. I think they want to at least preview a few great apps during the rollout presentation. That would require work to have already started and really ramp up this summer.

What I would do is get as many of early 970s as possible (usually slowerly clockspeeds are easiest to produce), modify my system controller to mate to the 970 and make single processor PowerMac 970s available to ADC Premier and Select members. If I have any left, then I would make them available to the general public.

But the first version would not be a redesign, it would not be dual processor and it would be done with the smallest hardware impact I could get to work. That is why I think a single processor PowerMac 970 1.4Ghz being released in a couple of months sounds reasonable. The point would be to get hardware into the hands of my software developers to test 64-bit Mac OS X.3 and port their apps.

dekator
May 4, 2003, 09:13 AM
Titian, I think you're both right and wrong.
Right because Apple was indeed trying to keep their customers contented over the last year or two by little updates. You're right also saying they're delivering superb software.
However, I think it's entirely wrong to think the current hardware situation is in anyway what they want.
Apple computers were as well or outperforming Wintels even in the early days of the PPC. Yes, Apple equipment and the machines were always much more expensive, but you got a lot of punch for that money (SCSI drives and all). Apple slowly migrated away from overly costly parts, using ATA drives and USB. Still, when the first G4s came out, they were seen and marketed as the fastet PCs on the planet. *Then* the G4 chip looked like a winner. Co-processing units and all with nothing (at that time) on the Wintel side to beat them.
Apple delivers to pros, not just graphic but also video. What you need there is raw power. This was always a major selling point for Apple. They would *never*, I repeat *never* willingly fall behind in performance. What happened was that they bet on the wrong horse (Moto) and lost. Sure, they made some mistakes but they certainly never wanted to loose. But they did. Then, and only then, did they have to apply all those marketing tricks we've seen the last 2 years. Yet, can't you see how deperately they are trying to keep up (Dual procs) but hardly ever managed to ? Indeed, with Shake and Maya Apple needs the most performing machines it can possibly get, and they're doing all they can to get them. G4 Pro sales have been plummeting recently and for a reason. Apple has all the jockeys, now they need the horse to to be ridden: The PPC 970. The development of the latter has already been dramatically accelerated by Apple. Apple has worked hard to make inroads into the movie business but only the PPC970 can substantiate them.
What Apple wants to see is, I think, what we all here want to see: The Pentium flattened again.

chabig
May 4, 2003, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by dekator
What happened was that they bet on the wrong horse (Moto) and lost.

I think you're right about this, but nobody can fault Apple for that choice. Nobody could have seen it 20 years ago when the Mac was first developed. At the time, the Motorola processor was way ahead of Intel's.

If I remember right, the big three names in microprocessors then were Intel, Motorola, and National Semiconductor (not counting the 8 bit processors from Zilog). Intel had the worst architecture of the three.

macrumors12345
May 4, 2003, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by MacWhispers
Mental lapse in a hurried post: Hon Hai = Foxconn, not Elitegroup.

It's still not where the PowerMacs are being assembled.

So where, in your opinion, are they being assembled? I was under the impression that the PowerMacs were still assembled in the US, but that was a few years ago. Are they now contracted out to builders in Asia, like the iMac/eMac/iBook/Powerbook?

Snowy_River
May 4, 2003, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by Rustus Maximus
Isn't Panther (10.3) also debuting at WWDC? This is for developers...to get their hands on these 970 boxes and start optimizing their programs for them. I just don't see a public May release for these guys...much less a June 'planet wide' conquest with these things. This will be the first peek, to start the hype.

Production will then ramp up...with a full blown intro and product line unveiling in January 2004. 20 years after the last shattering of Orwellian (wintel) domination (see 1984 commercial)...only this time let's hope they do it right ;) . Anyway...from a marketing standpoint, it is perfect.

I hope I'm wrong, I'd like to have one of the 2.0 GHz 970's running FCP 4, Maya in June. Maybe they will surprise me, either way it's going to be a fun next 6 months :D

I think that this would be truly foolish on Apple's part. Show us a 970 now (even if it's only to developers, you know that word will spread like wildfire), and then wait six months before releasing it? That a formula for half a year of nearly zero sales across the board! No, I can't believe that Apple doesn't want to get these machines out the door as fast as possible. This is their ticket to catch up in the area of hardware power. Why wouldn't they take advantage of it?

ktlx
May 4, 2003, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by Snowy_River
I think that this would be truly foolish on Apple's part. Show us a 970 now (even if it's only to developers, you know that word will spread like wildfire), and then wait six months before releasing it? That a formula for half a year of nearly zero sales across the board!

You know, people say this, but I wonder how much it really is true. People know that in six months you will be able to buy 3.6Ghz PCs with dual channel DDR and they still buy 3.02Ghz PCs with PC1066 RDRAM. I find it hard to believe it would affect iMac, iBook and PowerBook sales at all since those are not the top of the line performers anyway and probably will not be affected by the 970 for at least a year after its announcement.

I think there are a lot of people that realize if you wait six months there will always be something better. People still buy what they want/need when they want/need it.

The PowerMac sales right now are not that great and people know/believe something better is coming along in six months. I find it hard to believe many, other than those who simply cannot wait any longer, are buying PowerMacs now anyway. The sales are sinking like a stone and all that can happen is the stone sinks a little faster due to the announcement.

In my opinion, getting the PowerMac 970s in the hands of developers and getting the kinks worked out and apps updated is worth more to Apple than three or four months of even poorer PowerMac sales. I think when IBM is ready to produce 1.8Ghz+ 970s in quantity, Apple wants to be in a position to scream out of the gate. I don't think they want to delay getting machines into the hands of developers simply to save some percentage of three or fours months worth of PowerMac sales.

macmunch
May 4, 2003, 02:46 PM
Why all people allways say that macbidouille give no good info ?

They realesed the Pics of the MDD Power Mac nearly 2 weeks before it was realesed and reported all thing which will be announced at Apple expo paris !

So till yet I cant remember that they gave wrong infos !

BaghdadBob
May 4, 2003, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by chabig
If I remember right, the big three names in microprocessors then were Intel, Motorola, and National Semiconductor (not counting the 8 bit processors from Zilog). Intel had the worst architecture of the three.

Ironically, they've been building on that same architecture for the last 20 years. Kinda like Windows.

Ballmer: "Linux is a clone of a twenty-year-old operating system, that's what it is."

:D

GulGnu
May 4, 2003, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by ktlx
People know that in six months you will be able to buy 3.6Ghz PCs with dual channel DDR and they still buy 3.02Ghz PCs with PC1066 RDRAM.

That difference isn't *that* large, performance wise - The introduction of the PPC 970, on the other hand will be a huge leap for Apple - quite a difference.

Regards / GulGnu

-Stabil som fan!

MacsRgr8
May 4, 2003, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by ktlx
You know, people say this, but I wonder how much it really is true. People know that in six months you will be able to buy 3.6Ghz PCs with dual channel DDR and they still buy 3.02Ghz PCs with PC1066 RDRAM. I find it hard to believe it would affect iMac, iBook and PowerBook sales at all since those are not the top of the line performers anyway and probably will not be affected by the 970 for at least a year after its announcement.

I think there are a lot of people that realize if you wait six months there will always be something better. People still buy what they want/need when they want/need it.

The PowerMac sales right now are not that great and people know/believe something better is coming along in six months. I find it hard to believe many, other than those who simply cannot wait any longer, are buying PowerMacs now anyway. The sales are sinking like a stone and all that can happen is the stone sinks a little faster due to the announcement.

In my opinion, getting the PowerMac 970s in the hands of developers and getting the kinks worked out and apps updated is worth more to Apple than three or four months of even poorer PowerMac sales. I think when IBM is ready to produce 1.8Ghz+ 970s in quantity, Apple wants to be in a position to scream out of the gate. I don't think they want to delay getting machines into the hands of developers simply to save some percentage of three or fours months worth of PowerMac sales.

I agree with that.
I think two more reasons for Apple to shout it from the rooftops:
1) Make potential "back" switchers realize Apple is coming back strongly on the speed front. I bet there a quite a few speed-demons out there (Pixar?) who would WANT a Mac, but NEED a PC, pure for its power. Maybe letting these people know it's coming, they could wait just a couple of months. At least they would know WHEN it's coming, instead of speculating IF it's coming...
2) OK, so PowerMac sales could drop below freezing point.... This could work out to be the PPC 970 PM boiling point sales! (if ya know what i mean). This would mean that whenever the "new" 970 will be relased by Apple, it would be an enormous hit, right away!
I wonder how many MacRumors-readers are waiting for it allready...... These guys would buy the 970 instantaneously! I would :)

Frobozz
May 5, 2003, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by Gyroscope
Think that these MacBidoul. PPC 970 rumors are absolute crap.
During PPC 970 presentation Peter Sandon has said that some changes are needed to 32-bit OS in order to work with 970. So there is absolutley no way that it could work outta box with Jaguar.


It can work just fine with a point-release, which is always the case with new machines anyway. I've never seen new machines ship with the same version of the OS you can auto-update to... they always have a new build number to support the hardware.

JJTiger1
May 5, 2003, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by MacsRgr8
I wonder how many MacRumors-readers are waiting for it allready...... These guys would buy the 970 instantaneously! I would :)
I would like to buy the 970 instantaneously, too.

Historically: I wait for the model that I'm drooling for to become "discontinued" so that I can save many dollars. I make-do with what I've got until the "clearance sale". I drooled for the Mac that I'm using.

The performance of the Wind-Tunnel MDD's, (and the current MDD's) does not feel all that much greater compared to the quieter QuickSilver-733. A week after the intro of the Wind-Tunnel MDD's, I bought a discontinued QS-733 at clearance prices, and saved a couple hundred dollars from the regular price of the QS-733.

And that was at the Apple Store. The catalog houses were only few dollars different from Apple Store prices.

My QS-733 is still augmented by my 6500/250 upgraded to G3/400.

I can wait for Apple to discontinue the TowerMac with front panel USB and FireWire ports. That computer will have to feel twice as fast as my QS-733, not just some specification number on paper that only Martians appreciate. :D
-
JJ

macmunch
May 6, 2003, 09:47 AM
Yes sure Peter Sandon said there must be some changes !

But this are not big and as Macbid. said it was an Alpha version of Panther so where is the problem ?

For me it is not clear that these benchs are faked !

I think they are real !