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View Full Version : Is Micro$oft taking Apple ideas again ?


Remus
May 6, 2003, 02:35 PM
I do not know if this is the right area to post this. This article talks about how Micro$oft wants to "to help computer makers develop a new generation of PCs and reinvigorate the stagnant industry." so that "Microsoft wants to work with hardware vendors earlier, as soon as they create new PC technologies, so that they can synchronize hardware and software development and produce better computers."

The article even talks about how Apple is doing it. "That's the approach taken by Apple Computer, which develops both software and hardware in-house and is credited with numerous innovations to the ire of Gates and other leaders in the Windows PC industry." :)

What kind of impact will this have on Apple? :confused:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/134689749_winhec06.html

If this is not the are to post please move to the correct are....

patrick0brien
May 6, 2003, 02:40 PM
-Remus

Well, I suppose we'll see - anything would be an improvement.

But these are only two of the triumvirate of WinTel. They would need to get far more further involved in the design of the chips with Intel, and I don't see Intel doing that any time soon.

But to make it truly effective - eliminating the classic WinTel peeves, MS and Intel would have to abandon the x86 architecture and the Windows architecture completely and start over to make a truly modern offering. And I really don't see that with all the legacy they have to support.

Are they copying Apple? When are they not? Seriously.

Remus
May 6, 2003, 02:54 PM
Yes we will see. But it just angers me that Micro$oft has, after 20 years, finally decided to try to make thier software work with the hardware. If they had done that from the begining things would have definately been different. :mad:

Maybe I am just over reacting to this. Maybe M$ will screw this up to.... :p

Just an after thought. Is M$ really concerned about Apple's <5% market? or have they caught wind of whats in the pipeline for Apple and concerned about that?

just a thought or two to munch over.... :D

ericthemacpope
May 6, 2003, 07:21 PM
yeah, micro$oft has always copied apple. but i mean who hasn't. i think Microsoft will just use this hardware software integration for marketing reasons cause they obviously can't do much without screwing it up.

mac15
May 6, 2003, 08:07 PM
well this is what apple has bene doing forever. Making SW for the hardware and visa-vera.

And then M$ have the nerve to say its revolutionary.

patrick0brien
May 7, 2003, 09:19 AM
-Gents

Let's not forget Sun. They make the hardware and the OS as well (Solaris). So they fit into this picture as well.

frozenstar
May 7, 2003, 09:41 AM
Let's also not forget that this is the way of the world. Everyone copies everyone. It's part of competition. Only good can come of it.

Dare I say it, but Apple has copied Microsoft's ideas on numerous occasions as well.

patrick0brien
May 7, 2003, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by frozenstar
Let's also not forget that this is the way of the world. Everyone copies everyone. It's part of competition. Only good can come of it.

Dare I say it, but Apple has copied Microsoft's ideas on numerous occasions as well.

-frozenstar

Very true. Though nowhere near as much - or as significant.

The flow of copying (I call it Aping because MS changes it a little) is so significantly flowing toward MS it's still essentially a one-way street.

frozenstar
May 7, 2003, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by patrick0brien
-frozenstar

Very true. Though nowhere near as much - or as significant.

The flow of copying (I call it Aping because MS changes it a little) is so significantly flowing toward MS it's still essentially a one-way street.

No argument here. I definitely regard Microsoft as one of the biggest inhibitors to innovation in the industry. It looks like most of the development that goes into their software is geared toward making Microsoft's life easier, not the end-users'.

Remus
May 7, 2003, 10:09 AM
And Money in thier pocket...

Cha Ching $$$$$

patrick0brien
May 7, 2003, 11:10 AM
-frozenstar

I often refer to Microsoft as "The place where innovation goes to die."

NW80pdx
May 7, 2003, 11:40 AM
do we really need to ask if MS is stealing apples ideas? they've always been doing it, its just too bad apple always perfects it, and MS always makes it slower, isn't that why they need faster processors?

AppleMatt
May 7, 2003, 01:42 PM
I posted a while ago that a few days after the piles rumors were flying around in the Mac community, a few days later Microsoft released their latest beta of Longhorn and announced a new feature...

...stacks!

They also said they had no implementation as yet to test, but to look out for it.

I'm sure Apple are aware, or at least I hope they are.

AppleMatt

MorganX
May 7, 2003, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by AppleMatt
I posted a while ago that a few days after the piles rumors were flying around in the Mac community, a few days later Microsoft released their latest beta of Longhorn and announced a new feature...

...stacks!

They also said they had no implementation as yet to test, but to look out for it.

I'm sure Apple are aware, or at least I hope they are.

AppleMatt

Did you ever think maybe "piles" suddenly resurfaced because of what Apple may have gleaned about Longohorn? It's been in development for some time.

Too often Apple settles for being "first." Quartz Extreme? Wonder if Microsoft will have better font smoothing.

I like the mac, better than the PC. But to me, finishing unfinished business is not stealing.

I still can't right-click in a folder and clean it up or arrange the view.

I'd rather see Apple continue to work on their stuff, to completion and let MS do what MS will do.

BTW, if MS can't get an OS right after all these years, what makes you think they can develop new technology in a week or two. Both camps are always workign on similar technology. They both leak for mindshare when appropriate. IMO anyway.

patrick0brien
May 7, 2003, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by MorganX
Did you ever think maybe "piles" suddenly resurfaced because of what Apple may have gleaned about Longohorn? It's been in development for some time.

-MorganX

I almost sounds like you are defending MS as if they invented the "piles" paradigm.

Apple holds an active patent on the idea this time.

Pablo
May 7, 2003, 02:30 PM
Again implies that Microsoft stopped at one point.

jayscheuerle
May 7, 2003, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by MorganX
Too often Apple settles for being "first." Quartz Extreme? Wonder if Microsoft will have better font smoothing.


Microsoft's font smoothing is far more readable than OSX's.

As a matter of fact, OS9 had better font smoothing as well with QuickDraw.

OSX has sacrificed legibility in favor of typeface rendering accuracy. As pixel density on displays increases, this will be a boon, but for now it means fuzziness at smaller point sizes.

- j

acj
May 7, 2003, 05:16 PM
Windows 3.1 played minimized movies as an icon. OSX coppied that. Windows 95 introduced the taskbar. The Dock is more similar to that than the old NeXT dock... Windows 95 had DMA, OSX FINALLY adopted that...

In the early 1910s Peugeut made car engines that were what we now call "modern" Dual Over Head Cam designs. All manufacturers are finally copying that.

It's all just competition. Just as Apple "adopted" AGP and USB and dozens of other hardware items, MS will "adopt" pretty visual effects in software.

You always argue the points that make your argument simple. MS coppies software. Mac coppies hardware. Sometimes it goes the other way. But it almost ALWAYS makes an improvement.

MorganX
May 7, 2003, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by patrick0brien
-MorganX

I almost sounds like you are defending MS as if they invented the "piles" paradigm.

Apple holds an active patent on the idea this time.

Patents are more about habit and the filing fee than innovation. The first person to file a patent is not necessarily the innovator or creator. I really haven't seen piles at work, but gathering related files in a single location is hardly an Apple innovation though they may have filed a patent. OS/2 had this feature. And I'm not sure I like the circular piles I saw somewhere, looks messy.

Apple can only patent "their" implementation. And even if they get the patent, it may not hold up in court.

I just don't think MS is stealing anythying in this case.

ericthemacpope
May 7, 2003, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by NW80pdx
do we really need to ask if MS is stealing apples ideas? they've always been doing it, its just too bad apple always perfects it, and MS always makes it slower, isn't that why they need faster processors?
very good point

jayscheuerle
May 8, 2003, 07:51 AM
Originally posted by NW80pdx
do we really need to ask if MS is stealing apples ideas? they've always been doing it, its just too bad apple always perfects it, and MS always makes it slower, isn't that why they need faster processors?

Apple hardly perfects anything. They're excellent at polishing the paint-job that sells. Image is everything, right?

You want slower? Just remember moving from OS9 to OSX. We're all here hoping that the 970 will finally make OSX feel as snappy as OS9.

What about USB 2.0? There's no reason other than politics that any Apple machine updated in the past 6 months hasn't included it. Sure we have firewire, but that's a different forte.

There's theivery on both sides of the market. What Apple has always been able to sell is elegance. MS can ape it or mock it, but it's obvious that they're struggling to understand it. Lots of people know it when they see it, but few can create it. MS has the money to hire the best interface designers out there, but they don't know what they're looking for. Lord knows what Apple products would have looked like without Jonathan Ive. He's probably had more of an impact on Apple's fortune than Steve has. Then again, Steve's the master salesman. He can fawn about how icons get sucked into the dock and convince people that load-bearing graphic excess is cool.

I'm looking for a focus on substance other than style at this point, so the 970s better come in affordably or I'll have little reason to stick with Apple at home, especially if a PC version of iTunes is created.

- j

MorganX
May 8, 2003, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by jayscheuerle
Apple hardly perfects anything. They're excellent at polishing the paint-job that sells. Image is everything, right?

- j

True. But the Mac is growing on me. There's so many things missing. Expecialy context-menu implementation. I was happy that in iTunes 4 you can right click on the iPod to Update it or eject it. I couldn't do this previously. If users are too dumb to use the right mouse button, so what? They'll never know how close efficiency is and can keep wasting time traveling up to the finder menu for trivial tasks. So Apple understands how useful proplery implemented context-sensitive menus and a two-button mosue are. So why drag their feat on implementing it as pervasively as MS.

This tells me it's a political thing. An obsessive resistance. And a company as large as Apple can't/shouldn't have a single individual preventing these type of things. Apple may need Steve Jobs, but they need to be able to tell him, "No, you're wrong." And he needs to listen to why.

If they don't/can't, the he becomes a Dictator and in time, even the most successful dictatorships fail. All of them.

i_am_a_cow
May 8, 2003, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by jayscheuerle
You want slower? Just remember moving from OS9 to OSX. We're all here hoping that the 970 will finally make OSX feel as snappy as OS9.
- j


uhhh, let me see . . .
i have a g4 450 and os 10.2 is faster.

jayscheuerle
May 8, 2003, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by i_am_a_cow
uhhh, let me see . . .
i have a g4 450 and os 10.2 is faster.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Quit it! You're killing me!! 10.2 faster!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

My achin' sides.... whew.... Man, that is rich...

etoiles
May 8, 2003, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by jayscheuerle
There's theivery on both sides of the market.

you are right. But damn, they even copied the Aqua desktop background !

cfountain72
May 8, 2003, 12:08 PM
While Apple is busy pushing 1 mil+ Tunes through their pipes, Microsoft is hailing the introdcution of the iLoo. Who says Redmond doesn't have any new ideas of their own?

jayscheuerle
May 8, 2003, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by cfountain72
Who says Redmond doesn't have any new ideas of their own?

Microsoft's biggest problem is their own size and ambition. They undoubtably have the same lack of communication, politics and red tape that a city government has. They want to control everything and therefore focus on nothing...

There are probably tons of great ideas that never make it past middle managment. There are obviously many bad ideas that do. Any desire to innovate is eclipsed by a passion to rule the world. Bigger isn't necessarily better. Look at the dinosaurs...

- j