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MacRumors
Jan 2, 2007, 12:43 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

While it is believed that Apple CEO Steve Jobs will unveil more information regarding the company's "iTV" (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2007/01/20070101180909.shtml) at MacWorld San Francisco, AppleInsider believes that availability of the product may be pushed back (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=2341) to late January or early February.

While Apple has only formally announced that the so-called "iTV" would be released in the "first quarter of 2007 (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/09/20060912161621.shtml)", Apple has reportedly been pushing to get the device ready for a release at MacWorld. However, according to AppleInsider's report, a series of quality-assurance related concerns regarding the iTV's software have delayed availability until the bugs can be worked out.

Of interest is that the device's software is reportedly a scaled-down version of Mac OS X. Rumors of Apple developing a "light" version of Mac OS X have been repeatedly reported on rumor site LoopRumors (http://www.looprumors.com/). A previous report (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/12/20061219140034.shtml) indicated that Apple's phone was also using a light version of Mac OS X.



theheadguy
Jan 2, 2007, 12:44 PM
Waited this long, a few more doesn't hurt.

...

Wait a sec- no-- I want it now!!! Come on Apple!

moesker007
Jan 2, 2007, 12:45 PM
Interesting...one less thing at Macworld, bring on the whatever-phone :D

thejadedmonkey
Jan 2, 2007, 12:46 PM
Sounds good to me. I'd rather a working product that takes a few extra weeks than a PoS that's out earlier.

balamw
Jan 2, 2007, 12:54 PM
Doesn't mean they won't release it at MWSF, just that availability may be scarce (or nil) immediately after release. It wouldn't be the first time...

B

MacinDoc
Jan 2, 2007, 12:56 PM
Interesting that it will use a portable version of OS X, if the rumors are correct. This would certainly make a smartphone and an ultraportable possible. Of course, Apple won't necessarily see a market for such devices...

Mogenshu
Jan 2, 2007, 12:56 PM
Since its a software problem, i'd be glad to take the PoS now and have a software update 2 weeks later :D

Grimace
Jan 2, 2007, 12:59 PM
I've never been so eager to buy a product that I know so little about!! You have my $300 Apple, just release it soon!

Xavier
Jan 2, 2007, 01:02 PM
I want to see what they did for wireless. That will be the turn on or turn off for me

AndyR
Jan 2, 2007, 01:03 PM
Oooooh...... My first LCD HD TV turns up next Tuesday. PLEASE let this come out at MWSF! :D

dongmin
Jan 2, 2007, 01:04 PM
Interesting that it will use a portable version of OS X, if the rumors are correct. This would certainly make a smartphone and an ultraportable possible. Of course, Apple won't necessarily see a market for such devices...This is no doubt the next major push for Apple: a series of 'smart' gadgets running on OS X Lite.

-phone
-media center
-tablet
-car entertainment

Lord Blackadder
Jan 2, 2007, 01:06 PM
I must say I'm excited about the iTV...it could be the biggest thing of 2007 as far as home entertainment is concerned.

Or it could be another Mac TV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_TV). :rolleyes:

I'm pumped though, and I can't see Steve not giving details at MWSF. It would suck if it's a paper launch due to software bugs...I hate paper launches.

mkrishnan
Jan 2, 2007, 01:06 PM
Oooooh...... My first LCD HD TV turns up next Tuesday. PLEASE let this come out at MWSF! :D

There's likely to be at least some discussion of it, and probably a promise date, even if it is not immediately available in the store right at the moment Jobs mentions it. :) So it looks like you're going to be having some fun in January! :)

Macula
Jan 2, 2007, 01:13 PM
..."quality assurance-related concerns stemming strictly from the gadget's operating system software"...

Yeah, right... How about "we only have Disney movies for sale at the moment, no other distribution label will agree to provide us with content, and therefore the iTunes movie store sucks and renders iTV little more than a useless box"?

I truly hope this is a software issue being worked out rather than a lack of industry interest in providing iTunes-downloadable movies. Otherwise Jobs and his movie dreams may be in for an abrupt landing.

~Shard~
Jan 2, 2007, 01:20 PM
Too bad if this is the case, but I would prefer a working device rather than a flaky device rushed to market. That aside though, I'm just curious to see what the iTV actually ends up being, so regardless of the release date I'm hoping Jobs gives us all a detailed preview of it next week. :)

pdpfilms
Jan 2, 2007, 01:24 PM
Interesting that it will use a portable version of OS X, if the rumors are correct. This would certainly make a smartphone and an ultraportable possible. Of course, Apple won't necessarily see a market for such devices...

Not a portable OS, but a "light" OS.

ChiltonWebb
Jan 2, 2007, 01:25 PM
Hi,

The LoopRumors site is offline. Is this The Man bringing the smack down on them for dealing secrets? Or did they just forget to pay the bill?

-Chilton

crees!
Jan 2, 2007, 01:25 PM
I've never been so eager to buy a product that I know so little about!! You have my $300 Apple, just release it soon!

Yea, I just broke the bank on a new TV so getting iTV when it comes out like I wanted to seems less of a reality now. Oh well, life goes on.

shelterpaw
Jan 2, 2007, 01:26 PM
..."quality assurance-related concerns stemming strictly from the gadget's operating system software"...

Yeah, right... How about "we only have Disney movies for sale at the moment, no other distribution label will agree to provide us with content, and therefore the iTunes movie store sucks and renders iTV little more than a useless box"?

I truly hope this is a software issue being worked out rather than a lack of industry interest in providing iTunes-downloadable movies. Otherwise Jobs and his movie dreams may be in for an abrupt landing. You have a point with regards to the movie deal.

I certainly think there's a market for strictly on demand programming only. I'd be happy to ditch cable tv to watch HD content downloaded off the web and pay for what I watch only (without commercials). I wonder if Apple will take that approach? Seems like they're well setup for that type of distribution model apart from the HD and a full line of content.

dernhelm
Jan 2, 2007, 01:29 PM
Bigger news would be an OS/X lite platform that they are building iTV on top of. Sure would be interesting if they made this "small device platform" something other vendors could include as a part of their own device!

Migrate the iPod+Phone to OS/X lite, and build the iTV using it, and you've got a platform that a lot of vendors would like to get their hands on. They may never make OS/X available to the PC user buying masses, but OS/X lite could be a different story.

A real competitor to Microsoft in this area would be a very welcome happy new year's present.

bbabics
Jan 2, 2007, 01:31 PM
You have a point with regards to the movie deal.

I'd be happy to ditch cable tv to watch HD content downloaded off the web and pay for what I watch only (without commercials). I wonder if Apple will take that approach? Seems like they're well setup for that type of distribution model apart from the HD and a full line of content.

I already ditched my cable about a month ago... and I'm not loathing the idea of saving $85 a month either. :D

WildCowboy
Jan 2, 2007, 01:32 PM
The LoopRumors site is offline. Is this The Man bringing the smack down on them for dealing secrets? Or did they just forget to pay the bill?

They've been up and down all day...they've been Slashdotted with their rumor roundup thread.

iMacZealot
Jan 2, 2007, 01:34 PM
I had a feeling they'd announce it at Macworld, show it with some new features or whatever, but say that they're shipping at the end of the month.

I don't care about the MacPhone anymore because I have a Sidekick now. :)

And how could you forget that Mac Tablet next Tuesday that also runs a "stripped down version of OS X"??? :)

Texas04
Jan 2, 2007, 01:39 PM
I could definitely see something like this coming out at MWSF. And with a light version of OS X this could be great. Take a "remote" similar maybe to the Nintendo Wii remotes and incorporate that into the iTV for selection, iTunes, streaming movies and more.

I will be looking forward to this product for sure. :D

shelterpaw
Jan 2, 2007, 01:39 PM
I already ditched my cable about a month ago... and I'm not loathing the idea of saving $85 a month either. :D Did you switch to a dish or just say goodbye to TV all together?

bbabics
Jan 2, 2007, 01:45 PM
Did you switch to a dish or just say goodbye to TV all together?

I said goodbye to Cable TV altogether. Two weeks ago I purchased a SONY Grand WEGA 50" HDTV and a Terk HD antenna and both have worked together wonderfully. I am welcoming the iTV into my heart and home the moment Steve announces it's for sale. I want to be a part of the digital-choice tv ala carte revolution! And I'm wicked excited about it too! :D

Unfortunately for Comcast (and I probably shouldn't say this), they forgot to cap off my cable so I'm still getting all my digital and HD channels for free. So I'm not hurting too bad. But once the iTV is released I could care less about the free cable. I've already said goodbye and I'm not planning on ever looking back. :cool:

50548
Jan 2, 2007, 01:46 PM
As long as iTV allows for proper streaming of my legally ripped DVDs onto my LCD set, I am all for it...300 bucks are nothing compared to whatever hassle I will save in terms of boring disc swapping in my Sony DVD player...bring it on APPLE!

dashiel
Jan 2, 2007, 01:46 PM
apple is so smart, they know that no matter how good the UI or remote, doing anything more than selecting/play/pause/next from the couch is a PITA. while all these other media companies spend countless dollars coming up with DOA remotes and complex onscreen GUIs, apple knows that people are going to hate that.

just like itunes/ipod the heavy lifting will be done from a UI that is perfect for that sort of thing -- your computer.

brilliant.

iJaz
Jan 2, 2007, 01:47 PM
Scaled down version of Mac OS X on the iTV sounds interesting, I wonder what capabilities it will have!?
However, I have just thrown out my TV and will only be using my 20" ACD and an EyeTV, which is on the way, connected to my PowerMac, so I guess the iTV is not for me anyway.

shelterpaw
Jan 2, 2007, 01:50 PM
I said goodbye to Cable TV altogether. Two weeks ago I purchased a SONY Grand WEGA 50" HDTV and a Terk HD antenna and both have worked together wonderfully. I am welcoming the iTV into my heart and home the moment Steve announces it's for sale. I want to be a part of the digital-choice tv ala carte revolution! And I'm wicked excited about it too! :D

Unfortunately for Comcast (and I probably shouldn't say this), they forgot to cap off my cable so I'm still getting all my digital and HD channels for free. So I'm not hurting too bad. But once the iTV is released I could care less about the free cable. I've already said goodbye and I'm not planning on ever looking back. :cool: I'll have to look into that antenna. I only have Comcast internet because DSL is not offered in my area. Comcast only offers digital cable TV in my area and I don't watch enough TV to justify the cost. They let you have analog for free so, I'm analog now for now.

I completely agree that ala carte is the way to go.

pdpfilms
Jan 2, 2007, 01:51 PM
Unfortunately for Comcast (and I probably shouldn't say this), they forgot to cap off my cable so I'm still getting all my digital and HD channels for free. So I'm not hurting too bad. But once the iTV is released I could care less about the free cable. I've already said goodbye and I'm not planning on ever looking back. :cool:

Happened to me at my last residence, I'm (somewhat guiltily) going to attempt the same thing next semester.

miketcool
Jan 2, 2007, 01:53 PM
Hope they don't call it a Macintosh-whatever, I heard another company already makes things for your living room with this name.

http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/default.aspx

Diatribe
Jan 2, 2007, 01:56 PM
So if they use any Mac as a server for iTV, which with 802.11n is pretty cool, and you can put one in pretty much any room for the price...

...has anyone thought about disc longevity?

If all your iTVs are accessing your HD on your server Mac constantly how is the HD in there going to hold up? My guess is not very well.

Somebody correct me if I am wrong here but are current HDs really up for the task?

bbabics
Jan 2, 2007, 01:59 PM
I'll have to look into that antenna. I only have Comcast internet because DSL is not offered in my area. Comcast only offers digital cable TV in my area and I don't watch enough TV to justify the cost. They let you have analog for free so, I'm analog now for now.

I completely agree that ala carte is the way to go.

I kept my Internet with Comcast because they're service is really good. When I told them I was canceling my TV service with them they had no problem informing me that my $40 internet service would be upped to $60 a month. So once I gave back the boxes and all my Comcast channels (both digital & HD) still worked I had no problem paying the extra $20. From what I understand, it's pretty common for them to not cap off your TV service because it interferes with their internet service.

Like you, my wife and I watch mostly network TV, so we had no problem saying goodbye to paying for all the other channels because Comcast said we had to.

Oh, and the Terk HD Antenna works perfectly too. We still get about 25-30 channels with about a dozen or more of those being in HD. I think it's worth checking out. The antenna sells for about $80 at Best Buy but with some shopping around on the net I found it for $25. If you want I'll give the link. Let me know. ;)

Good Luck!

gloss
Jan 2, 2007, 01:59 PM
I said goodbye to Cable TV altogether. Two weeks ago I purchased a SONY Grand WEGA 50" HDTV and a Terk HD antenna and both have worked together wonderfully. I am welcoming the iTV into my heart and home the moment Steve announces it's for sale. I want to be a part of the digital-choice tv ala carte revolution! And I'm wicked excited about it too! :D

I bought a nice Terk HD antenna and then realized that it doesn't work in the basement. Yay for forethought.

I'm too lazy to wire one up to the roof. Bleh.

balamw
Jan 2, 2007, 02:00 PM
Somebody correct me if I am wrong here but are current HDs really up for the task?
Sure they are. Many of use have been watching TV through HDDs for years through our PVRs, my DirecTiVos are constantly recording the satellite stream throughout the day and get a fair amount of use for playback as well.

B

cynerjist
Jan 2, 2007, 02:01 PM
..."quality assurance-related concerns stemming strictly from the gadget's operating system software"...

Yeah, right... How about "we only have Disney movies for sale at the moment, no other distribution label will agree to provide us with content, and therefore the iTunes movie store sucks and renders iTV little more than a useless box"?

I truly hope this is a software issue being worked out rather than a lack of industry interest in providing iTunes-downloadable movies. Otherwise Jobs and his movie dreams may be in for an abrupt landing.

couldn't agree more. i am very excited about the iTV, but its success will be content driven. they will need greater distribution access. the movie industry should be more accepting towards Apple seeing how well they have protected music while selling a ton of it.

personally, i could get by watching photoshop tv and dl.tv podcasts with it as better alternatives are made available, but it is the maintstream population that is going to decide the success of iTV.

xVeinx
Jan 2, 2007, 02:02 PM
Since its a software problem, i'd be glad to take the PoS now and have a software update 2 weeks later :D

You say that now, but realize that it may not be that simple. The hardware may not be designed to be upgraded at whim - i.e. you may not be able to add patches very easily. I don't know why this would be the case, but it is a possibility...

shelterpaw
Jan 2, 2007, 02:05 PM
I kept my Internet with Comcast because they're service is really good. When I told them I was canceling my TV service with them they had no problem informing me that my $40 internet service would be upped to $60 a month. So once I gave back the boxes and all my Comcast channels (both digital & HD) still worked I had no problem paying the extra $20. From what I understand, it's pretty common for them to not cap off your TV service because it interferes with their internet service.

Well I guess I'm lucky because they kept my internet the same price, which is $45 a month. :rolleyes:

Cheers!

a456
Jan 2, 2007, 02:07 PM
Migrate the iPod+Phone to OS/X lite, and build the iTV using it, and you've got a platform that a lot of vendors would like to get their hands on. They may never make OS/X available to the PC user buying masses, but OS/X lite could be a different story.

In theory this sounds great, but wouldn't it create similar problems to licensing the OS for other PC vendors?

Diatribe
Jan 2, 2007, 02:07 PM
Sure they are. Many of use have been watching TV through HDDs for years through our PVRs, my DirecTiVos are constantly recording the satellite stream throughout the day and get a fair amount of use for playback as well.

B

Cool. Didn't know that they were that resilient.

Then I guess I am even more excited over the iTV announcement. Before I would have needed a Mac mini in every room, now I only need 1 server Mac and then just iTVs.

balamw
Jan 2, 2007, 02:08 PM
In theory this sounds great, but wouldn't it create similar problems to licensing the OS for other PC vendors?
Much less so since an embedded OS is not meant to run on random hardware. Think Windows CE not XP.

Cool. Didn't know that they were that resilient.

Then I guess I am even more excited over the iTV announcement. Before I would have needed a Mac mini in every room, now I only need 1 server Mac and then just iTVs.

It's actually quite surprising how much you can do with an HDD. With many PVRs you can record two programs simultaneously and view one at the same time so the HDD's sustained bandwidth must be more than 3x that required for a single stream.

B

notjustjay
Jan 2, 2007, 02:09 PM
Somebody correct me if I am wrong here but are current HDs really up for the task?

Can't be any worse than 24/7 serving up of web pages, like many existing servers have been asked to do for years...

bbabics
Jan 2, 2007, 02:10 PM
Well I guess I'm lucky because they kept my internet the same price, which is $45 a month. :rolleyes:

Cheers!

That's probably because you still have your analog cable service. If you cancel that they'll probably up it. :( But hey, maybe they won't. :eek:

If you're interested in that antenna you can check it out at Amazon for about $20+. Here's the link with NEW antennas (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0001FV36E/ref=olp_tab_new/002-1424342-7545643?ie=UTF8&seller=&condition=new). If that doesn't work you can search Amazon for "Terk Technology HDTVi VHF/UHF HDTV Indoor Antenna ".

Good Luck!

Diatribe
Jan 2, 2007, 02:11 PM
Can't be any worse than 24/7 serving up of web pages, like many existing servers have been asked to do for years...

I was just asking because I think most people would use a Mac mini, etc. to do that. But if there is no difference between the 2.5" and the 3.5" drives I guess we're all right.

balamw
Jan 2, 2007, 02:13 PM
Can't be any worse than 24/7 serving up of web pages, like many existing servers have been asked to do for years...
In very few instances is serving web pages as demanding as constant streaming use. Much of the time static content can be cached in RAM. Plus if it is more demanding, the load is usually spread over many devices in a SAN and is much more than a consumer HDD.

B

cynerjist
Jan 2, 2007, 02:13 PM
as of today, i am not certain HD distribution is altogether feasible. The bandwidth required (and hence cost) for that is substantial. People with DVRs know how much space HD eats up. I would love to get some 1080p content for my new TV, but I'm not holding my breath. Maybe something between DVD & HD quality is a more reasonable expectation for the time being.

uNext
Jan 2, 2007, 02:13 PM
I suspect a complete rethinking of the #1 consumer device -- breathtakingly elegant, simple and powerful -- in the spirit of the iPod.

Say hello to iTV. This puppy will bring together the best of Tivo, Dolby digital surround sound, iDVD and big plasma display technology into a clean white buttonless free-standing appliance, controlled by an iPalm remote or any Mac -- all based on QT6. Via Firewire you can synch your iBook and take "Enterprise" and "West Wing" with you. Cool feature: family videoconferencing with other iTV users.

Sony electronics, optional wireless Harmon Kardon surround.

Hey, I'm just making this up....but it COULD happen....

Gregg McVicar
MacDreamer since 1984

ORIGINALLY POSTED ON 01-02-2002, 02:54 PM

Amazing this guy is like a macstradamus-he predicted this released exactly 5 years ago

mkrishnan
Jan 2, 2007, 02:24 PM
as of today, i am not certain HD distribution is altogether feasible. The bandwidth required (and hence cost) for that is substantial. People with DVRs know how much space HD eats up. I would love to get some 1080p content for my new TV, but I'm not holding my breath. Maybe something between DVD & HD quality is a more reasonable expectation for the time being.

Mmm, it might not be too unreasonable for Apple to start off offering 720p. A 2 hour movie at 720P in H.264 is on the order of 5-6 gigs, right? I've been thinking a lot about it too, and I think one of the ballsiest things Apple could try to do right now is to offer an iTV / iTS solution using H.264 as an alternative to HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. Strike now while neither one has really reached high levels of support. 720p isn't "perfect," but it will appeal to the vast majority of HD homes that have 720p and not 1080p hardware. And of course they can always move up easily to 1080p when they're ready.

cynerjist
Jan 2, 2007, 02:28 PM
Mmm, it might not be too unreasonable for Apple to start off offering 720p. A 2 hour movie at 720P in H.264 is on the order of 5-6 gigs, right? I've been thinking a lot about it too, and I think one of the ballsiest things Apple could try to do right now is to offer an iTV / iTS solution using H.264 as an alternative to HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. Strike now while neither one has really reached high levels of support. 720p isn't "perfect," but it will appeal to the vast majority of HD homes that have 720p and not 1080p hardware. And of course they can always move up easily to 1080p when they're ready.

now that i think about you are on to something. they really cannot compromise at all, like i errantly thought in my post. they are going to have to pick some kind of standard (480p, 720p, etc) for the TV to display it, right? 720p would be a great choice.

ziwi
Jan 2, 2007, 02:32 PM
Rather see it done properly than rushed. If that means waiting until Feb. then so be it. Better that than a buggy system.

jholzner
Jan 2, 2007, 02:32 PM
Amazing this guy is like a macstradamus-he predicted this released exactly 5 years ago

I suppose, but from everything Apple has said and we've seen, the iTV will not be a DVR.

maxp1
Jan 2, 2007, 02:33 PM
I wonder if the device will also be a 802.11n basestation kind of like the Airport Express is a basestation and music streaming relay device. I sure could use an upgrade to my original graphite Airport basestation.

I also read somewhere that devices based on the draft spec of 802.11n may not be compatible with the final spec.

artpease
Jan 2, 2007, 02:34 PM
Mmm, it might not be too unreasonable for Apple to start off offering 720p. A 2 hour movie at 720P in H.264 is on the order of 5-6 gigs, right? I've been thinking a lot about it too, and I think one of the ballsiest things Apple could try to do right now is to offer an iTV / iTS solution using H.264 as an alternative to HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. Strike now while neither one has really reached high levels of support. 720p isn't "perfect," but it will appeal to the vast majority of HD homes that have 720p and not 1080p hardware. And of course they can always move up easily to 1080p when they're ready.

And where do you plan on getting the 1080p content. 720p is the best broadcast or upscaled to 1080i...only HD-DVD and BluRay provide 1080p content..there is no other source of 1080p.

Diatribe
Jan 2, 2007, 02:36 PM
now that i think about you are on to something. they really cannot compromise at all, like i errantly thought in my post. they are going to have to pick some kind of standard (480p, 720p, etc) for the TV to display it, right? 720p would be a great choice.

Still, do you know how long it would take to actually download 5GB worth of data?
With current broadband bandwidths I think this is unreasonable. Although I would definitely appreciate it with a 5Mb connection.

ChrisA
Jan 2, 2007, 02:39 PM
Yeah, right... How about [I]"we only have Disney movies for sale at the moment, no other distribution label will agree to provide us with content, and therefore the iTunes movie store sucks


I understand that for many (most) people watching Hollywood movies and recorded television is about the only use of this gadget but for people who own and use cameras this is going to be very usful even if iTunes does suck (it does and will until they get at least 480p content) I like to watch stuff that I shot and edited on the Sony LCD TV but the only way to do that now is to burn a DVD. But my Sony LCD is 1080p and currently I don't have ANY way to move 1080p content from my mac to the TV screen. I hope iTV will allow this. I couldn't care less about Hollywood movies and TV shows.

Diatribe
Jan 2, 2007, 02:42 PM
I wonder if the device will also be a 802.11n basestation kind of like the Airport Express is a basestation and music streaming relay device. I sure could use an upgrade to my original graphite Airport basestation.

I also read somewhere that devices based on the draft spec of 802.11n may not be compatible with the final spec.

The spec is pretty much locked though and I'd say the changes can be pretty much coped with with a firmware update.

Cinch
Jan 2, 2007, 02:44 PM
can I have your attention please.

Watching TV is a VERY passive thing that we all do! Whatever form the release iTV takes; it will make watching TV laborous. I and the whole 95% of the human species will not bother with it if we have to think of what we want to watch every single time we turn on the tube. For the iTV to succeed, it will have to be very easy to use. Infact it has to be easier to use than the iPod. Having say that I predict the iTV will be the new Apple flop taking the place of the Cube.

Cinch

ChrisA
Jan 2, 2007, 02:50 PM
And where do you plan on getting the 1080p content. 720p is the best broadcast or upscaled to 1080i...only HD-DVD and BluRay provide 1080p content..there is no other source of 1080p.

We all have Macs right? Don't we use them to create videos, slide shows. My Nikon D50 shoots 3000 x 2000 pixels. It looks decent when down sampled to 1080 but not to 480. I'd really like to get this displayed on my 1080p screen. I don't own an HD video camera but I've been wanting to try Green Screen I could composite live action over a background I shot with my DSLR to make a 1080P final result.

cynerjist
Jan 2, 2007, 02:50 PM
And where do you plan on getting the 1080p content. 720p is the best broadcast or upscaled to 1080i...only HD-DVD and BluRay provide 1080p content..there is no other source of 1080p.

exactly unless its homemade

Still, do you know how long it would take to actually download 5GB worth of data?
With current broadband bandwidths I think this is unreasonable. Although I would definitely appreciate it with a 5Mb connection.

this is the point i was originally trying to make about the feasibility of HD content. it would take a long time to download 720p, but 480p just isn't sexy anymore.

balamw
Jan 2, 2007, 02:53 PM
Watching TV is a VERY passive thing that we all do! Whatever form the release iTV takes; it will make watching TV laborous.

:confused: Have you actually used a TiVo?

The UI is very easy to use and can make watching TV much more enjoyable. Why do you assume that Apple can't do something similar here.

B

gloss
Jan 2, 2007, 02:54 PM
And where do you plan on getting the 1080p content. 720p is the best broadcast or upscaled to 1080i...only HD-DVD and BluRay provide 1080p content..there is no other source of 1080p.

You can get uncompressed 1080i over-the-air with an antenna. Most 1080p TVs will deinterlace this and display it at 1080p.

Diatribe
Jan 2, 2007, 02:54 PM
:confused: Have you actually used a TiVo?

The UI is very easy to use and can make watching TV much more enjoyable. Why do you assume that Apple can't do something similar here.

B

I think he is referring to actually having to download the episodes first.

Anyway, this is not just for TV it is for movies, music, photos, TV shows and more.

Docoe
Jan 2, 2007, 02:55 PM
So... the product is still on schedule for release in the first quarter of 2007 - or am I missing something?:confused:

balamw
Jan 2, 2007, 02:58 PM
You can get uncompressed 1080i over-the-air with an antenna. Most 1080p TVs will deinterlace this and display it at 1080p.
Of course deinterlacing doesn't actually add any information back into the signal it's still 1080i just displayed as 1080p, it's not much better than 720p scaled up to 1080p.

FWIW I've watched some low bitrate 960x540 content that looks quite a bit better than DVD, but is still only ~700 MB/hour. Yes, you can see artifacts in fast moving or dark scenes, but overall it's quite viewable.

I think he is referring to actually having to download the episodes first.

Anyway, this is not just for TV it is for movies, music, photos, TV shows and more.

I was including that too. Picking a program to record on your TiVo is not difficult and/or laborous.

B

Cinch
Jan 2, 2007, 02:59 PM
:confused: Have you actually used a TiVo?

The UI is very easy to use and can make watching TV much more enjoyable. Why do you assume that Apple can't do something similar here.

B


no, but I've seen it use. Do I feel compel to get TiVo? no. I ussually come home late ~10 to 11pm, and by then my brain is fried or physically exhausted from work and working out. I don't have a regular time that I sit down to watch TV, and I can't think of a show that I would devote time to watch regularly. Haven't say this, I got to get back to work.

Cinch

~Shard~
Jan 2, 2007, 03:03 PM
So... the product is still on schedule for release in the first quarter of 2007 - or am I missing something?:confused:

There were several rumors that the iTV would actually be released at MWSF, but now it is looking like that is not the case. Obviously yes January and February are still 1Q07, so the product is not necessarily delayed per se.

balamw
Jan 2, 2007, 03:04 PM
no, but I've seen it use. Do I feel compel to get TiVo? no. I ussually come home late ~10 to 11pm, and by then my brain is fried or physically exhausted from work and working out. I don't have a regular time that I sit down to watch TV, and I can't think of a show that I would devote time to watch regularly. Haven't say this, I got to get back to work.
IMHO this is exactly where TiVo fits in for 95% of people who own them.

Think of it as your own personal On Demand channel that has only the programs you like to watch whenever you want to watch them. Want to watch a movie in 10 15 minute slices? Go ahead. Skip commercials? Or even as I sometimes do, watch a show at 2X speed with the closed captions on. It's all at your fingertips.

I think that iTV is already a bit of a niche market product as previewed since it seems to only be worthwhile if you already have an HDTV.

B

bilbo--baggins
Jan 2, 2007, 03:09 PM
By the time they have given a detailed overview of Leopard, introduced iLife 07, shown off the iTV in more detail, and perhaps tied in with that 802.11n availability for all new macs, and perhaps a few other minor updates for the Macs, I cannot imagine they're going to fit much more into the Keynote. Last year I was expecting everything, and was disappointed. For me, anything more than what I've described will be a bonus.

papaburgundy
Jan 2, 2007, 03:14 PM
I was just asking because I think most people would use a Mac mini, etc. to do that. But if there is no difference between the 2.5" and the 3.5" drives I guess we're all right.

I've been using a mac mini, HDTV ant. and an eyetv hybrid for months now. It works great. I have it hooked up to my 60 inch Sony SXRD via DVI. The only problem is the resolution is not perfect (top and left side of screen is cut-off a bit), but hardly noticable. In order for me to abandon my set-up it would have to allow me to kill my cable tv altogether. The only channels keeping me tethered to my cable is ESPN.

Diatribe
Jan 2, 2007, 03:15 PM
By the time they have given a detailed overview of Leopard, introduced iLife 07, shown off the iTV in more detail, and perhaps tied in with that 802.11n availability for all new macs, and perhaps a few other minor updates for the Macs, I cannot imagine they're going to fit much more into the Keynote. Last year I was expecting everything, and was disappointed. For me, anything more than what I've described will be a bonus.

Yeah, I guess I'd be surprised if we really see all the things people are anticipating...

iTV
Leopard
iLife07
iPhone
video iPod
new displays
new MacPros

Would be nice though. :D

bbabics
Jan 2, 2007, 03:18 PM
By the time they have given a detailed overview of Leopard, introduced iLife 07, shown off the iTV in more detail, and perhaps tied in with that 802.11n availability for all new macs, and perhaps a few other minor updates for the Macs, I cannot imagine they're going to fit much more into the Keynote. Last year I was expecting everything, and was disappointed. For me, anything more than what I've described will be a bonus.

I agree. Last years keynote was disappointing. It's hard enough not to begin to buy into the rumors when you're being bombarded with them everyday. I'm just hoping this year they really release a lot of (hopefully new but okay if only updated) goodies... otherwise, Apple's new ad on their website "the first 30 years were just the beginning" is just a big tease.

technocoy
Jan 2, 2007, 03:18 PM
wasn't there a report of apple talking with the studios about releasing MP4/Quicktime compatible versions of movies on Blu-Ray and HD-DVD Discs?

That could be very interesting, since then you could buy the HD-DVD's as well as Blu-Ray and know that you have an authorized copy for your computer or streaming media server.

VERY interesting indeed.

I would drive purchases for the studios as well as supplying content for the new apple products.

sartinsauce
Jan 2, 2007, 03:25 PM
can I have your attention please.

Watching TV is a VERY passive thing that we all do! Whatever form the release iTV takes; it will make watching TV laborous. I and the whole 95% of the human species will not bother with it if we have to think of what we want to watch every single time we turn on the tube. For the iTV to succeed, it will have to be very easy to use. Infact it has to be easier to use than the iPod. Having say that I predict the iTV will be the new Apple flop taking the place of the Cube.

Cinch

Of course, listening to music is even more passive than watching TV. The Christmas day crash of the iTS should be some indication that consumers are willing to casually interact with a device in order to appreciate their content anywhere and anytime.

That being said, I wouldn't be surprised to see the iTV crash and burn. I think it still may be ahead of it's time. Those of us who are technologically inclined have been waiting for something like this, but I think the rest of the general consuming public is still getting used to their Tivos. In fact, I think that with Tivo's brand recognition, they are the company best suited to offer online content distribution.

BeyondCloister
Jan 2, 2007, 03:32 PM
In fact, I think that with Tivo's brand recognition, they are the company best suited to offer online content distribution.

The difference is that Apple is a world wide known brand.
Tivo is nothing much outside of the US. They pulled out of the UK years ago.

Of course just because I've heard of Apple and own several of their computers does not mean I would by content via their online store. I still buy CDs for music and DVDs for TV and films.

hyperpasta
Jan 2, 2007, 03:33 PM
Infact it has to be easier to use than the iPod. Having say that I predict the iTV will be the new Apple flop taking the place of the Cube.

I agree that it is dangerous to assume that the iTV will succeed. Apple is introducing an all-new kind of device. While it very well could turn out to be a hit a la iPod, it could easily fail; the iPod's appeal alone will not buoy an all-new class of Apple products.

Also, I think that an "iPhone" could more easily appeal to the iPod's audience: phones are more "hip" than video streaming devices.

islanders
Jan 2, 2007, 03:52 PM
Of course, listening to music is even more passive than watching TV. The Christmas day crash of the iTS should be some indication that consumers are willing to casually interact with a device in order to appreciate their content anywhere and anytime.

That being said, I wouldn't be surprised to see the iTV crash and burn. I think it still may be ahead of it's time. Those of us who are technologically inclined have been waiting for something like this, but I think the rest of the general consuming public is still getting used to their Tivos. In fact, I think that with Tivo's brand recognition, they are the company best suited to offer online content distribution.


Iím starting to warm up to the idea of the Tivo online download. I donít have Tivo, but my dad does and he loves it. He explained exactly how it works.

I could see iTV getting itís foot in the door with this added feature with a subscription.

Not sure if this would be for the high end user or the average Joe who wants OTA HD and HD Tivo.

1080i or 720p would be generous.

blashphemy
Jan 2, 2007, 04:14 PM
And where do you plan on getting the 1080p content. 720p is the best broadcast or upscaled to 1080i...only HD-DVD and BluRay provide 1080p content..there is no other source of 1080p.

Sure there are. HD television recievers, and user-content. Games (iTV is for PC too, remember?) But most importantly, iTunes will eventually bring high-def over the Internet. And why not with the release of iTV? The Showtime event showed that the iTV will have an HDMI port, which of course, is for HD content. Why can't Apple start offering movies in HD on iTunes? Present digital distrobution as a viable alternative to the costly HD-disc formats, and with more movie studios onboard (as rumored after the heavy-DVD holiday buying season), imagine being able to get whatever movie you want, in high def, for cheap on your living room HDTV. This might even be the right time to bring out subscription models for iTMS, $14.99 a month for unlimited music rentals, and $29.99 a month for unlimited movie/TV rentals, maybe $39.99. Make iTMS more like the media store of the future, streaming all the content you want to your computer and then to your computer. Essentially, this takes every single cable TV provider and knocks them out of the business. Another monopoly for Apple.

That is the future.

What's preventing it?
1) The computers: current US ISP speeds. Most US homes do not get more than about 4 MB/s of bandwidth download, and many get less. People who have cable (and dont have neighbors with cable) or Verizon's FiOS do have the necessary bandwidth. If you get the above model, you're only going to be able to download HD movies. No VoIP. No games. No Youtube in the background, cause you simply don't have enough bandwidth. As it is, HD movies take up TONS of hard drive space, much more than whats available on off-the-shelf consumer Macs if you're going to download more than a couple. Forget about laptops. Time to download actually isn't a problem, so the movie takes about 30 mins before you can start watching as you're downloading instead of a few mins. Its a sacrifice I'm willing to make for the current day, and as the future arrives, this wont be a problem with FttH (fiber to the home) becomes more prevalent and people get faster connections.
2) The content providers themselves. Content providers, like it or not, are paranoid. And any relatively informed content provider is going to get cold-feet at the prospect of HD content being transferred un-encrypted over 802.11. And even if Apple can develop some kind of encryption that works between iTV and iTunes and yet still works with run-of-the-mill 802.11 NICs, odds are that content providers are still not really going to like the future. Not many companies in general do, I mean look at how Verizon Wireless locks up the Bluetooth functionality on its phones and forces you to use VCast.
3) The consumers. HDTV's may have been the hot, hot product this holiday season, but if you look at the numbers there are still very few people out there with HDTVs yet, let alone those that can play 1080p. Broadband? (following numbers may be inaccurate, sry) Barely 2/3 of the US has Internet access, and only half of those have any kind of broadband access, which can be as low as 256 Kb/s download. I mean, only in 2006 did the number of households with DVD players pass the number of households with VHS players. And like it or not, considering that this is a new direction that Apple is heading in, Apple needs to bring out the marketing team and put this alongside the TiVos in retail stores, not just Apple retail. If it stays with Apple retail, its gonna take a year or two to take off, just like the iPod. Many people can afford an iPod, entertainment, an HDTV, a computer, appropriate monthly power, TV, ISP bills, or a life, and many people have some combo of those, but very few people can afford all. And considering the fact that the iTV essentially asks people to buy all of those (many people buy an iPod before anything else from Apple), and an additional $300 for the iTV itself may be too much for a lot of people. A lot of people are going to ask themselves first, "What's wrong with the way I'm doing it right now? Why not go to a local Best Buy, pick up a plain DVD which looks just fine to me, and bring it home and watch it?"

Sure, many of those questions Apple's already answered, but many it either needs to answer for the first time or answer again. And that could mar a great product.

Now for the actual rumor :p

Steve Jobs will announce at MWSF, show off all the features, and then say shipping in February. Simple as that.

balamw
Jan 2, 2007, 04:16 PM
Iím starting to warm up to the idea of the Tivo online download. I donít have Tivo, but my dad does and he loves it. He explained exactly how it works.

I could see iTV getting itís foot in the door with this added feature with a subscription.

Not sure if this would be for the high end user or the average Joe who wants OTA HD and HD Tivo.

1080i or 720p would be generous.

The problem with the TiVo series 3 (the only non-DirecTV HD TiVo) is that it's $800 for the box alone and doesn't work with all sources of HD (e.g. DirecTV, non CableCard cable). The iTV (if done right) will compete nicely with it. Makes more sense to me to buy a Mac Mini and EyeTV Hybrid.

B

SpaceMagic
Jan 2, 2007, 04:16 PM
LoopRumors is down... did they say something true?!!

starflyer
Jan 2, 2007, 04:22 PM
I wonder if the device will also be a 802.11n basestation kind of like the Airport Express is a basestation and music streaming relay device. I sure could use an upgrade to my original graphite Airport basestation.

I also read somewhere that devices based on the draft spec of 802.11n may not be compatible with the final spec.

This is what I have thought all along. With the availability of the Airport Extreme being nonexistant, this is the only reason I can think of.

mrmma
Jan 2, 2007, 04:28 PM
This is what I have thought all along. With the availability of the Airport Extreme being nonexistant, this is the only reason I can think of.

Does the "draft" part of "draft-n" allow for software upgrades or will it require new hardware too?

Samurai
Jan 2, 2007, 04:32 PM
I said goodbye to Cable TV altogether. Two weeks ago I purchased a SONY Grand WEGA 50" HDTV and a Terk HD antenna and both have worked together wonderfully. I am welcoming the iTV into my heart and home the moment Steve announces it's for sale. I want to be a part of the digital-choice tv ala carte revolution! And I'm wicked excited about it too! :D

That's what I want to do too, but I would currently loose sports channels I watch, like ESPN and EPSN2. You can't get those over the air or watch events live (or almost live) via the internet.

Bregalad
Jan 2, 2007, 04:35 PM
Steve Jobs will announce at MWSF, show off all the features, and then say shipping in February. Simple as that.

Exactly!

I expect Leopard and 'iTV' will be the stars of Macworld, but given that neither will be ready to ship immediately there will be something else announced that people will be able to get their hands on right away. Post keynote delirium is perfect for separating people from their cash.

If anyone here actually believes any "pro" items (new Cinema displays, quad core Mac Pro, etc.) will be announced at Macworld, I have some ocean front property in Louisianna for sale.

greg6028
Jan 2, 2007, 04:37 PM
What ever happen to the rumor about sharing our bandwidth to help distribute these movie files? I hope that Apple offers these movies in 720p. I heard there was a possibility that if you share your bandwidth, you will receive a credit in iTunes? Have our own Apple bit-torrent!

People are speculating that new Mac Pros and Displays will be introduced. Forgive me, but I don't recall ANY Pro devices introduced at MacWorld.

So here are my predictions for MacWorld 2007
Pre-View of Leopard with bit-torrent.
iTV with new base stations and cards (need the speed!)
New iPods Ė one as the true Video iPod
New iLife Apps, some how tied to the .mac subscription for movie downloads, via the Apple Bit-Torrent and the possible addition or name change for iTunes to show that movies are available.
And the iPhone

xnu
Jan 2, 2007, 04:40 PM
Next 30 years.... MacOS X lite licensed to every device that moves and entertainment device in existence.... multimedia dominance. iTV will serve as a demonstration of the OS power. Microsoft may have Ford, but everything else will be running OS X. Content creation on full version of the MacOS and Apple's hardware, marketshare explosion.... Trojan Horse... licensing without licensing everything. Ok maybe not.

starflyer
Jan 2, 2007, 04:46 PM
Does the "draft" part of "draft-n" allow for software upgrades or will it require new hardware too?

Im not sure but wasnt the original Airport base station a draft b, and the original Airport Extreme base station a draft g? Anyways, it should work fine with the draft n cards they are putting in the shipping Intel Macs.

page3
Jan 2, 2007, 04:47 PM
The difference is that Apple is a world wide known brand.
Tivo is nothing much outside of the US. They pulled out of the UK years ago.

Of course just because I've heard of Apple and own several of their computers does not mean I would by content via their online store. I still buy CDs for music and DVDs for TV and films.
Whilst TiVo pulled out of selling in the UK market (bah humbug, the rotters), they still supply the programme guide here. There is also an active 'hackers' community to keep our Series 1 boxes alive - and Mac compatible :)

mdntcallr
Jan 2, 2007, 04:58 PM
i dont mind, its not a long delay, and it is much better to have a reliant product and wont damage the quality of apple rep

bankshot
Jan 2, 2007, 05:11 PM
This product needs to allow me to store, organize, browse, and watch my DVD movies the same way I do with iTunes and my music CDs. If it does this, I think I'll actually buy one shortly after keynote and release (a first for me). If it doesn't do this, I have trouble seeing the point of its existence.

Sadly, I don't think the movie studios will allow such a thing.

mmmcheese
Jan 2, 2007, 05:17 PM
Sounds good to me. I'd rather a working product that takes a few extra weeks than a PoS that's out earlier.

And bad press/reviews fly faster than the speed of light....

chuckles:)
Jan 2, 2007, 05:21 PM
"But since this is MACWORLD, lets forget the iPod for a day and talk about the MAC."- Steve Jobs, Keynote 2006

iMikeT
Jan 2, 2007, 05:37 PM
Take that Windoze Live!:p

twoodcc
Jan 2, 2007, 05:39 PM
well this really isn't good news, but not that bad i guess. just hope they get it right

SiliconAddict
Jan 2, 2007, 05:47 PM
Interesting that it will use a portable version of OS X, if the rumors are correct. This would certainly make a smartphone and an ultraportable possible. Of course, Apple won't necessarily see a market for such devices...

OS X in a smartphone would be. . . difficult to say the least if I understand the basics on how Darwin works.

As for iTV. Bring it on. I am really hoping that its much more then a dumb terminal. I've got a huge DVD collection just waiting to be completely ripped.

MarkCollette
Jan 2, 2007, 05:47 PM
"But since this is MACWORLD, lets forget the iPod for a day and talk about the MAC."- Steve Jobs, Keynote 2006

"Since this is MACWORLD, let's rename the iPod to the MacPod, so we can still just talk about it" :)

gloss
Jan 2, 2007, 05:47 PM
Of course deinterlacing doesn't actually add any information back into the signal it's still 1080i just displayed as 1080p, it's not much better than 720p scaled up to 1080p.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the difference between 1080i and 1080p, but they're both 1920x1080, one simply transmits at 60fps interlaced while the other is half the framerate, but progressive. Since 1080p flat-panel TVs are inherently progressive, they will deinterlace a 1080i signal and display it as 24/30fps 1080p, with very nearly identical results to a straight 1080p transmission. See this article
(http://blog.hometheatermag.com/geoffreymorrison/0807061080iv1080p/)
Correct me if I'm wrong.

islanders
Jan 2, 2007, 05:48 PM
The problem with the TiVo series 3 (the only non-DirecTV HD TiVo) is that it's $800 for the box alone and doesn't work with all sources of HD (e.g. DirecTV, non CableCard cable). The iTV (if done right) will compete nicely with it. Makes more sense to me to buy a Mac Mini and EyeTV Hybrid.

B



Agreed,

Maybe the iTV, iTunes would have the option to download broadcast shows sooner, then play at same time of the broadcast or later.

Some of the 480p digital looks pretty good. Donít know if this is because it was filmed in higher resolution or what, but anything over that would be an improvement over most broadcast.

timswim78
Jan 2, 2007, 05:50 PM
Sounds good to me. I'd rather a working product that takes a few extra weeks than a PoS that's out earlier.

If I buy one of these, I think that I will definitely wait for revision B.

smueboy
Jan 2, 2007, 06:18 PM
I'd love an iTV if it has a substantial hard-drive and twin HD tuners to replace my DVR.

ezekielrage_99
Jan 2, 2007, 06:32 PM
I must say I'm excited about the iTV...it could be the biggest thing of 2007 as far as home entertainment is concerned.

Or it could be another Mac TV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_TV). :rolleyes:

I'm pumped though, and I can't see Steve not giving details at MWSF. It would suck if it's a paper launch due to software bugs...I hate paper launches.

Computer power has come along way since the Mac TV and remember Apple doesn't make the same mistake more than once (yeah I know the Mighty Mouse is still rubbish).

Not addressing bugs is a Microsoft thing ;)

ezekielrage_99
Jan 2, 2007, 06:41 PM
So here are my predictions for MacWorld 2007
Pre-View of Leopard with bit-torrent.
iTV with new base stations and cards (need the speed!)
New iPods Ė one as the true Video iPod
New iLife Apps, some how tied to the .mac subscription for movie downloads, via the Apple Bit-Torrent and the possible addition or name change for iTunes to show that movies are available.
And the iPhone

That's a pretty good call not sure about the iPhone (I think it's very wishfull thinking), but I do think we will see a quiet Mac Pro, iMac update and a new iSight product.

emotion
Jan 2, 2007, 06:41 PM
I doubt we'll see OSX on this class of device. More likely is a platform based on Portal Player's OS (or the Apple alternative that's in the nano (?)) that runs what looks like Dashboard and Frontrow.

I could be way off though, but we'll see this month.

emotion
Jan 2, 2007, 06:43 PM
That's a pretty good call not sure about the iPhone (I think it's very wishfull thinking), but I do think we will see a quiet Mac Pro, iMac update and a new iSight product.

Don't forget the L7400 based 12" macbook ultra-portable :).

digitalbiker
Jan 2, 2007, 07:18 PM
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the difference between 1080i and 1080p, but they're both 1920x1080, one simply transmits at 60fps interlaced while the other is half the framerate, but progressive. Since 1080p flat-panel TVs are inherently progressive, they will deinterlace a 1080i signal and display it as 24/30fps 1080p, with very nearly identical results to a straight 1080p transmission. See this article
(http://blog.hometheatermag.com/geoffreymorrison/0807061080iv1080p/)
Correct me if I'm wrong.

This seems correct to me as long as your DLP, LCD, or Plasma is 1920X1080 native resolution or greater you should be OK.

The only thing that bugs me a bit about this information is that I can currently directly compare 480i to 480p on LCDs and DLPs today and I can see a difference. It seems like if frame rate and interlacing were the only issues that differentiate these transmissions then these displays should be identical as well. I can definitely tell you that they aren't.

dernhelm
Jan 2, 2007, 07:26 PM
In theory this sounds great, but wouldn't it create similar problems to licensing the OS for other PC vendors?

No, actually. Or at least I wouldn't think so. They could reasonably tighten down on the hardware specs they support (something nearly impossible for a user-installed OS). Since they would only be supporting it with vendors that have contracts with them they would also have less to worry about in terms of loss of income from people "sharing" copies of OS/X lite.

Apple could rig it so other device manufacturers could OS/X lite and nobody would even need to know it. Or they could go the Microsoft route, and make sure that their logos are stamped all over it (apple inside, or osx lite, or whatever).

Peel
Jan 2, 2007, 07:26 PM
The problem with the TiVo series 3 (the only non-DirecTV HD TiVo) is that it's $800 for the box alone and doesn't work with all sources of HD (e.g. DirecTV, non CableCard cable). The iTV (if done right) will compete nicely with it. Makes more sense to me to buy a Mac Mini and EyeTV Hybrid.

B

The TiVo S3 Does work with non-cablecard cable. Perhaps you meant non-cablecard digital cable. That would be true, but now all cable providers in th US are required by the FCC to make cablecards available to their subscribers. I have an S3, but no digital cable, it works fine with the analog cable (recording 2 shows at once) and, as seems to be the trend here, I've got the Terk antenna to pull HD content in over the air.

Peel
Jan 2, 2007, 07:45 PM
This seems correct to me as long as your DLP, LCD, or Plasma is 1920X1080 native resolution or greater you should be OK.

The only thing that bugs me a bit about this information is that I can currently directly compare 480i to 480p on LCDs and DLPs today and I can see a difference. It seems like if frame rate and interlacing were the only issues that differentiate these transmissions then these displays should be identical as well. I can definitely tell you that they aren't.

The difference between 480i and 480p (assuming that the source material was at this rate) is that the interlaced is shown at 60 half frames (each is called a field) per second, and each of these half frames are shot 1/60 of a second apart. So when you combine 480i to be shown on 480p equipment the two half frames get put together, but as they were not shot at the same time, they are slightly out of sync - especially for fast motion shots. The result is that the image looks slightly fuzzy, as the two half frames don't line up precisely.

This is because material originally shot at 480i was recorded at 60 fields per second. The video being put to 1080i or 1080p is not, it's either a film transfer (24fps) or shot with an HD camera. If that HD camera is a 720p, then your only scaling the data, not de-interlacing it. The only chance would be if it's shot with a 1080i cam, but as I understand it they save the data as 60 fields per second, but they're not shot with a 1/60th second offset between fields, so they combine better.

moonislune
Jan 2, 2007, 08:02 PM
I already ditched my cable about a month ago... and I'm not loathing the idea of saving $85 a month either. :D

Ditto. Did the same. It's nice to have a cheap cable bill (only for internet). I set up EyeTV with a $99 WinTV-HVR-950 and it makes a great media center. I control it with my phone via bluetooth and sailingclicker. over a dozen HD channels in my area makes it very tolerable.

dmelgar
Jan 2, 2007, 08:56 PM
Why would iTV be any better than a Mini? I wanted to buy the original mini as a media center, but I didn't when I realized that there was no digital audio output.

The new Intel Mac Mini has digital audio output and input and comes with FrontRow and includes a remote. It can hook up to your TV with DVI and adapters to composite and S-Video.

It doesn't record, but neither does iTV. It only has a 2.5" hard drive limiting the capacity for local storage, but so does iTV.

With a Mini, you can also surf the web, use your LCD TV as a monitor to keep the kids surfing in public. Can watch online videos such as youTube, weather, etc.

I'm excited at the idea of iTV, but I'm leaning towards buying a Mini when Leopard comes out.

digitalbiker
Jan 2, 2007, 10:17 PM
The difference between 480i and 480p (assuming that the source material was at this rate) is that the interlaced is shown at 60 half frames (each is called a field) per second, and each of these half frames are shot 1/60 of a second apart. So when you combine 480i to be shown on 480p equipment the two half frames get put together, but as they were not shot at the same time, they are slightly out of sync - especially for fast motion shots. The result is that the image looks slightly fuzzy, as the two half frames don't line up precisely.

This is because material originally shot at 480i was recorded at 60 fields per second. The video being put to 1080i or 1080p is not, it's either a film transfer (24fps) or shot with an HD camera. If that HD camera is a 720p, then your only scaling the data, not de-interlacing it. The only chance would be if it's shot with a 1080i cam, but as I understand it they save the data as 60 fields per second, but they're not shot with a 1/60th second offset between fields, so they combine better.

I never considered the source material but that does make sense. So do you know the process for film transfer? Do they interpolate frames to 60 fps before transcribing to 1080i?

Sport73
Jan 2, 2007, 10:50 PM
I think people are reading too much into the presence of HDMI and Component in the iTV in terms of functionality at launch. I expect it to be released with NO Change in the quality of iTunes downloads. They will be 640x480 as they are today, but your iPhoto library will stream in HD resolution, as will your home made movies (if shot with an HD camcorder).Later in the year, Apple will begin to release a select number of HD Movies and TV shows. They're simply planning ahead, and I thank them for it.

If they launched the iTV for standard def resolutions as are on the store today, we'd all be a little peeved with the 2nd gen HD unit came out. People don't replace home electronics gear with the same frequency that they will an iPod, so Apple knows that they have to build a box that is at least a little bit 'future-proof'.

I'm ordering an iTV the minute it becomes available. I've already tried twice to set up a Mac Mini as a HT Mac, but the resolution is never quite right and the need to go into OSX actually hampers the experience of the device as a pure 'utility'.

emaja
Jan 2, 2007, 11:06 PM
As long as iTV allows for proper streaming of my legally ripped DVDs onto my LCD set, I am all for it...300 bucks are nothing compared to whatever hassle I will save in terms of boring disc swapping in my Sony DVD player...bring it on APPLE!

Although that would indeed be sweet, in the US where Apple is based, there is no such thing as a legally ripped DVD. Say what you want to say about the stupidity of that part of the DMCA, but the very act of breaking the encryption on a commercially available DVD is illegal here. I doubt that Apple would make something that will tweak the nose of the MPAA or RIAA.

There may be an out for Apple on this one. I can rip DVDs on my PC, transcode them with Transcode360 and stream them to my Xbox 360. Maybe if Microsoft looked the other way on this matter, Apple could too.

Wishful thinking maybe, but it would be sweet.

I agree that it is dangerous to assume that the iTV will succeed. Apple is introducing an all-new kind of device. While it very well could turn out to be a hit a la iPod, it could easily fail; the iPod's appeal alone will not buoy an all-new class of Apple products.

Depending on what it will do, it may not be an all-new type of device. Apple took the clunky MP3 player and turned it into the very elegant iPod. Imagine what they could do if they combined the TiVO and SlingBox technology. Add to that the fact that they could also deliver content to directly from their servers.

Sounds pretty sweet to me, but we will have to wait.

OdduWon
Jan 2, 2007, 11:22 PM
With more than one iTV, could you have access to all the content, from one computer, on multiple screens at the same time? ;)

This would be a good solution to some cable or satellite setups where two tv's have to share the same box. Which means they have to watch the same thing.

Now if apple hooked up with the service providers, they could network some sort of Pay-per copy/download of an episode they saw while channel surfing. ;)

or more likely Apple will create a "network" with "channels" providing some sort or .Mac style account to gain access to all the material. like monthly subscription cable or satellite. This seems to have connection to something that was on the iTMS last month, i can't find it now but, it was like PANDORA (http://www.pandora.com/), a program that played music it "Thinks you like" based on your iTunes library ( "you bought ___" . "you own ____"). My thoughts of the iTMS service were that it should have been sampling one or my playlists or my top rated/most played. It kept throwing some funky stuff at me. (three very different tastes in music sharing 30 gigs of library space). So this may have been a research project for the APPLE NETWORK.

Peel
Jan 3, 2007, 12:13 AM
I never considered the source material but that does make sense. So do you know the process for film transfer? Do they interpolate frames to 60 fps before transcribing to 1080i?

Here's a link (http://www.hometheatermag.com/gearworks/1106gear/) to an article in Home Theater Magazine that explains 2:3 pulldown to 1080, that has a helpful illustration. The article also demonstrates that when the source is 24fps (i.e. film) there is no real difference between 1080i and 1080p, as they both go through the 2:3 pulldown process.

balamw
Jan 3, 2007, 12:18 AM
I think people are reading too much into the presence of HDMI and Component in the iTV in terms of functionality at launch.
I think the bigger question is why composite and S-video were conspicuous by their absence.

With a Mini, you can also surf the web, use your LCD TV as a monitor to keep the kids surfing in public. Can watch online videos such as youTube, weather, etc.

I'm excited at the idea of iTV, but I'm leaning towards buying a Mini when Leopard comes out.
FWIW I used the exact same arguments and ended up buying the iMac for the living room, precisely because you can have dual displays which is impossible with a Mini. This way one kid can be watching iTunes video on the TV and the other can be surfing the web or looking at iPhoto slideshows on the iMac display. I also plan to buy the iTV to further facilitate this.

B

rikers_mailbox
Jan 3, 2007, 01:56 AM
Beyond software "quality issues", I find it likely that the timing of iTV's release is also in consideration. Consumers can't be asked to buy too much at once. I think the iTV market overlaps with Wii or PS3 folks, and especially people who own a nice Plamsa/LCD. The price points hit about the same too.

I say wait for the holiday spending hangover to cure and then unleash this thing.

BeyondCloister
Jan 3, 2007, 03:18 AM
Whilst TiVo pulled out of selling in the UK market (bah humbug, the rotters), they still supply the programme guide here. There is also an active 'hackers' community to keep our Series 1 boxes alive - and Mac compatible :)

Not much use to the average consumer on the street though is it?
Also the TiVo name has hardly any brand recognition.

50548
Jan 3, 2007, 05:29 AM
Although that would indeed be sweet, in the US where Apple is based, there is no such thing as a legally ripped DVD. Say what you want to say about the stupidity of that part of the DMCA, but the very act of breaking the encryption on a commercially available DVD is illegal here. I doubt that Apple would make something that will tweak the nose of the MPAA or RIAA.

There may be an out for Apple on this one. I can rip DVDs on my PC, transcode them with Transcode360 and stream them to my Xbox 360. Maybe if Microsoft looked the other way on this matter, Apple could too.

Wishful thinking maybe, but it would be sweet.

Sure...in fact, it's incredible how the DMCA still lives on in the US...what a piece of legal garbage it is.

The fact of the matter is that Apple doesn't need to dirty its fingers with mud here...it may just leave the possibility open, as it is nowadays with CDs...and why so?

Because not all DVDs are copy-protected, especially older or homemade ones. This constitutes an obvious legal door for Apple to do that, as it is not, in any way, breaking the current (and stupid) US laws:

1 - it is NOT breaking any copy-protection;
2 - it is NOT providing any anti-circumvention mechanism.

MikeDTyke
Jan 3, 2007, 07:02 AM
A lot of people have been commenting on the obvious announced features of the iTV, but it seems to me the most interesting part will be the stuff jobs left out.

The fact that the frontrow interface shown back in Sept was effectively unchanged from what exists already seemed to imply at least to me that this was a quick n dirty demo version and that frontrow 2.0 would be much more polished.

I'm eager to see the integration between leopard and iTV. What sort of data formats/application types will exist on both platforms. ie. will we see dashboard plugins? I'm think yes as an announced feature of leopard is dashboard syncing via .mac.

Will we be able to view incoming email, ical alerts, rss feeds? They're all candidates, and what will help make iTV popular in areas where the content deals aren't signed. eh? ITS movies and tv for europe pretty please.

Will we be able to remotely view a mac desktop, unlikely, but wouldn't it be cool to play counterstrike on darwine running on the macpro upstairs, sitting in front of ones 40 inch lcd tv?

M.

goosnarrggh
Jan 3, 2007, 08:04 AM
I think the bigger question is why composite and S-video were conspicuous by their absence.
Well that one would be understandable if Apple wants to market this thing as primarily a purveyor of big-studio commercial HD content. When HDCP becomes commonplace, you won't be allowed to send full-quality content with the encryption flag set, through any unauthorized or unencrypted communication channel -- the FCC is seeing to that. That means that all analog ports are out of the question.

It also renders the Mac Mini's DVI port obsolete since even digital DVI doesn't support content encryption.

But I think there are provisions to allow the transmission of decrypted HD content as long as it has been artificially downgraded to non-HD quality first. So that might be output through the DVI port, and Apple already has adaptors to convert DVI signals into various analog schemes like VGA, S-video etc. Why waste money building those ports into the device when you can charge people extra for the adaptors?

- Luke

ezekielrage_99
Jan 3, 2007, 09:34 AM
Don't forget the L7400 based 12" macbook ultra-portable :).

That would be cool, I'd buy it :D

I think we will see the GMA 950 upgraded to the newer GMA X3000 also.... well my fingers are crossed on that one.

WilliamLondon
Jan 3, 2007, 12:16 PM
Wouldn't it be cool if it tied seamlessly into Elgato's EyeTV and you were allowed to watch streaming/live television in addition to the recorded programmes, therefore not requiring additional tuners and freeing your television to sit anywhere in your home, only being restricted by the power lead??

Goldfinger
Jan 3, 2007, 12:23 PM
I think the bigger question is why composite and S-video were conspicuous by their absence.
I agree. I can understand no composite. But no S-video ? come on.

Also, no SCART RGB for Europe would mean zero sales IMHO. I wouldn't buy one if it only has component or HDMI.

There are VERY few TVs with component in Europe. Only the newer ones have it but they have HDMI as well. Also, HDTV isn't nearly that popular in Europe which means that a LOT of people haven't switched to HDTVs with HDMI.
Almost all TVs sold in Europe have RGB SCART.

But there's always the possibility that they offer a version with SCART and HDMI for Europe. I'd really like to see that.

Half Glass
Jan 3, 2007, 12:31 PM
Wouldn't it be cool if it tied seamlessly into Elgato's EyeTV and you were allowed to watch streaming/live television in addition to the recorded programmes, therefore not requiring additional tuners and freeing your television to sit anywhere in your home, only being restricted by the power lead??

I second that notion! Just got a MigliaTVMini HD (uses EyeTV also) and love it! **But,** true love would be the ability to stream recordings *sans commercials* to my big screen!

That plus HD pictures plus consumer HD camcorders likely hitting the $700 range this year is where the iTV would be an awesome product that I would grab in a heartbeat!

--Carl

Rocketman
Jan 3, 2007, 02:53 PM
I wonder if the device will also be a 802.11n basestation kind of like the Airport Express is a basestation and music streaming relay device. I sure could use an upgrade to my original graphite Airport basestation.

I also read somewhere that devices based on the draft spec of 802.11n may not be compatible with the final spec.

Steve Jobs himself stated the iTV box he showed has Wi-Fi. He did not narrow down which spec probably because he does not discuss details of unreleased products.

But as soon as dual-booters under WinXP of C2D iMacs, MacBooks, MacBook Pros, and MacPros started detecting WORKING 802.11n cards under OS Win XP, it was made clear.

The primary chip supplier for 802.11n is Intel. Therefore Intel can simply do in the future what does not break the past. Other third parties will have to conform to Intel chip details to not break, but considering the domoinant market share of Intel, who wouldn't?

The top three wi-fi chip suppliers have committed to conform to Intel style releases.

So even if n evolves a bit you can expect a "high degree" of backward compatibility. In Macs in particular, these are all insertable cards, so if the unexpected happens you have a $100 upgrade path in any case.

I wonder what Wi-Max stuff will cost?

Rocketman

davork
Jan 3, 2007, 03:08 PM
Hmm...

I'd expect a NAS box for the low end... perhaps using Infrant's hardware and some of the usual apple special spice... hmm... maybe I'll hold off upgrading my stuffed-to-the-gills infrant for a little while longer! LOL

I guess there could be an iSCSI SAN, but... hmm... I don't think they'd get the price level down this year9!)

And how come apple don't have any blade servers...:confused:

TheSpaz
Jan 3, 2007, 03:40 PM
You must admit that not EVERYONE likes TV as much as some. Also, they should probably think about changing the name of iTV because it could get confusing over the phone when talking about EyeTV and iTV. I probably won't be one of the people buying this thing when it comes out. I can't find a reason to justify it. I have a nice Apple Cinema Display... why wouldn't I just watch TV shows on that?

Also, speaking of resolutions here, do you think Apple iTunes Store will soon be offering TV shows and movies in 1080p or 720p? Anything would probably be better than the current 640x480 shows they're trying to sell you. I'm getting an EyeTV 250 so that I don't have to pay for TV shows anymore.

ChrisA
Jan 3, 2007, 06:26 PM
Why would iTV be any better than a Mini?

Easy. The iTV will sell for less than 1/2 the price of the mini.

Apple would not sell to many $700 set top boxes. If you ask me, $300 is high After all an iTV is just a video iPod with no screen and no storage but with a bundled wifi card and a remote. I'm expecting a device that is much smaller than a Mini.

ChrisA
Jan 3, 2007, 06:47 PM
Hmm...

I'd expect a NAS box for the low end... perhaps using Infrant's hardware and some of the usual apple special spice... hmm... maybe I'll hold off upgrading my stuffed-to-the-gills infrant for a little while longer! LOL

I guess there could be an iSCSI SAN, but... hmm... I don't think they'd get the price level down this year9!)

And how come apple don't have any blade servers...:confused:

What I'd love to see is a Sun/Apple alliance.

Apple lacks a professional class service network. Seriously standing in line with your computer at an an Apple store and waiting two or three days for a repair is a total deal breaker any business. If something important breaks you needs it fixed in hours not days. Sun has a world wide network that can do same day on-site response. In many places Sun can offer one hour on-site service. Sun also sells storage that scales to many many terrabytes and hundreds of simultaneous users

Apple has a good desktop machine while Sun's is horrible (I know I have one) Sun needs a way to get onto the desktop and they've not been able to do it although they've tried for years

Sun and Apple already have a slight relationship -- two of Solaris' big innovations are going into Leopard Dtrace and ZFS. I'm sure neither of these could have been done without help from Sun so at least the Sun and Apple kernel hackers are talking.

Apple gets a World class service network and gets to re-brand some high end storage and servers and Sun finally gets on the desktop.

GregA
Jan 3, 2007, 07:01 PM
Watching TV is a VERY passive thing that we all do! Whatever form the release iTV takes; it will make watching TV laborous. I and the whole 95% of the human species will not bother with it if we have to think of what we want to watch every single time we turn on the tube. For the iTV to succeed, it will have to be very easy to use. As it stands, the iTV is a different way of viewing TV. People will need to do different things - that takes some effort to learn, but once learned it may not be more laborious.

My mother-in-law is someone who supports your example She has only had a DVR for 2 weeks, but she still sits down and watches whatever is on, rather than look in the planner. For her, a POSSIBLE interface would be to channel surf through the recorded programs, showing her every recorded program just a minute into the show. Or she could channel surf the trailers for each show. As it stands, perhaps she'll learn to use the planner... time will tell.

(if I dropped cable) I would currently loose sports channels I watch, like ESPN and EPSN2. You can't get those over the air or watch events live (or almost live) via the internet.That's a big blackspot for IPTV for now. At least ESPN is Disney - perhaps Apple will find a way of streaming ESPN & ABC News shortly.

they should probably think about changing the name of iTV because it could get confusing over the phone when talking about EyeTV and iTV. Not just that - the iPhone name is taken, so Apple needs a different name for their phone. This may be a chance to make a similar branding for iTV & iPhone - and gain mindshare.

GregA
Jan 3, 2007, 07:17 PM
deinterlace a 1080i signal <snip> nearly identical results to a straight 1080p transmission.If there's no movement, a deinterlaced signal is identical to a progressive signal. Movement causes problems, faster movement causes more problems - to the extent that 1080i is sometimes converted to 540p for best response.

The good thing is that colour & contrast is far more important than resolution.

why (were) composite and S-video conspicuous by their absence.Good question, and it does tend to indicate that this is for high end devices. I'd like to see better support for ye-olde TVs :) there would seem to be a big market for them. So Apple is aiming for the new technologies?

OS X in a smartphone would be. . . difficult to say the least if I understand the basics on how Darwin works.OSX Lite wouldn't be built on Darwin. In fact, for a TV or Phone a realtime OS might be more appropriate (ie: It's not OSX-Lite so much as Embedded-Realtime-OSX)
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_operating_system)

Still, do you know how long it would take to actually download 5GB worth of data?83minutes if you've got 9Mbps. :-).
as of today, i am not certain HD distribution is altogether feasible. The bandwidth required (and hence cost) for that is substantial. People with DVRs know how much space HD eats up. I would love to get some 1080p content for my new TV, but I'm not holding my breath. Maybe something between DVD & HD quality is a more reasonable expectation for the time being.
HD programs of 5GB ARE unreasonable over Australian broadband (and most western countries' services I'd guess), due to Internet fees as well as download speed. However, in a check of Sydney, ADSL2+ provides 75% of the population >10Mbps - so there's a substantial potential market if you're only looking at the last mile (but not universal).

Still, if you wanted to watch 2 HDTV shows live/streamed you'd be in trouble! If everyone turned on the TV at once the backbone from the exchange to the ISP would clog up quickly too. Locally available iTunes servers would help a bit, OR an amazing iTunes Bittorrent sharing system that identifies nearby users and forms high speed local peer-to-peer communities.

Still, all things considered, even at SDTV bandwidth we would have trouble if it became more common. Downloading at least ensures TV quality, whilst sacrificing "live"/streaming.

balamw
Jan 3, 2007, 07:25 PM
So that might be output through the DVI port, and Apple already has adaptors to convert DVI signals into various analog schemes like VGA, S-video etc. Why waste money building those ports into the device when you can charge people extra for the adaptors?
I agree with you, this certainly fits with all recent Macs, except for one thing. The iTV as previewed does not have a DVI-I port, only HDMI and component. Unlike the DVI-I ports on Macs, HDMI doesn't carry the analog singals required to convert to VGA or S-video, instead opting to carry audio. So they'd need some other kind of adapter than the ones they have today. Digital to analog adapters (HDMI to VGA) do exist, but they are about as expensive as the iTV!

B

Mac'Mo
Jan 3, 2007, 08:50 PM
HD iTV

virduk
Jan 3, 2007, 09:54 PM
I just hope its easier to get the iTV to play other formats than it is the 360. I really want something that handles HD to replace my Xbox with XBMC.

GregA
Jan 3, 2007, 10:27 PM
I've been thinking alot about the bandwidth issues (I'm at work, getting paid to answer phone calls, and no-one is calling).

In 10 years time, I'd guess that bandwidth will not be an issue. For now, it certainly is. So how can Apple release the next generation of TV in a way that gives us a great user experience, and that will not bring the internet to a grinding halt?

Stage 1:
1) Sell shows - not rental or subscription. People limit what they spend (fewer downloads) and they only download once. If they compare it to buying DVDs online, it's much quicker than waiting for postal delivery even on slower connections.
2) Avoid VoD. Don't even mention it. (Some people will start watching soon after pressing "buy"... but don't mention it!)
3) Allow purchases in advance. If I buy all of this season's Stargate in ADVANCE.. iTunes could download the next episode before I ask for it. It could download the whole thing the day before it's released and authorise it only when it's released. If I buy 5 episodes in a row, it could anticipate I want the next and download in advance (or put up an ad so I can purchase in advance?).
4) Record FTA (HD and SD). No bandwidth required, and it covers a large number of popular shows (optionally recompress into h264!)
5) Support downloads through Bittorrent uploads. In particular, connect to other iTunes users with fewer "hops" (closer) to minimise congestion. Pass on the savings as rewards to those uploading.
6) Have iTunes regularly report to Apple so Apple can create a map of activity on the net, and offer advanced services to users who can handle it.

edit:
7).... Remote downloads - download a show via the local Blockbuster/Wallmart/Apple-store.
If I pick a movie in iTunes, it'll start downloading. But why not take my iPod down to the local store (which has fibre internet) and plug it into their docking station. Apple knows I'm 12% through my download at home, so they can automatically download the rest of the show to my iPod over the fibre connection. Plus any other shows that Apple "predicts" I might be interested in (and has locally available). Same goes for if I go to my brother's house and he has high speed internet while I don't (assuming he authorises me!!)

Stage 2:
1) Collaborate with existing developments for streaming content (Sport & News for starters) over multicast. Encourage IPv6 multicast setups.
2) Make deals with ISPs. Sell Apple-branded media servers to ISPs (otherwise use Akamai). Sometimes donate them to blackspots (if it's a backbone issue). ISPs may use servers at a country level, city level, or exchange level??
3) Offer VoD services like HBO On Demand to users with good bandwidth.
4) Offer entire cable "channels" by subscription, broken up into downloadable chunks
5) Provide shows FREE by inserting 1 ad into each ad break. Charge the advertiser more (the same as 8 regular ads!), since
a) it's only 1 ad per break
b) the ad is only shown to a specific subset of viewers interested in the product
c) the viewer can't fast forward through it.

I think the key is to create small groups of users who upload to each other without putting any strain on the internet backbone.

Okay enough rambling ...

ezekielrage_99
Jan 4, 2007, 07:50 PM
Okay enough rambling ...

Phase 1: Collect Underpants
Phase 2: ?
Phase 3: Profit