Open letter to Apple: What I need to stay with Apple in 2K4

[MorganX]

OPEN LETTER

My Mac experience has been pleasant. I definitely Love/Hate Apple. I can't say anything bad about my 17" FP iMac except it needs more CPU and graphic power for the high cost, but it is quite a good performer on general computing tasks.

I like Apple's style and OS X is quite good, though clearly in progress.

To stay with Apple given the mac platform's limitations and where Windows and Intel are going, I will need the following in a 17" or 19" FP iMac late 2k3 or very early 2k4 to not return to the Wintel world. I knew the iMac would be obsolete by the end of the year because it was close to that when I bought it. But I bought it to support Apple and becuase I tire of the Wintel world, it's BS, and paper-only engineers who can't make heads or tails of FTP Server vs. and FTP client.

So here's to you Apple; I need the following in the next major rev. of the FP iMac, these are minimums at current prices + up to 20% increase if upgradeable options are included, and I need them ALL:

HARDWARE

Mobility Radeon 9600 w/FlexFit (FlexFit makes it upgradeable) or GeforceFX Go

64-128MB DDR Video RAM

DVD+R/RW (You only hurt customers and potential customers when you don't know when to give it up.)

FW800

USB 2.0

PPC 970 or performance equivalent to P4 2.4Mhz across the board (socketed for upgradability)

512MB DDR Standard

266MHz FSB minimum (Beyond 266MHz I have only seen minimal gains except in 3D Games. I'll take more, but 266Mhz is minimum)

Bluetooth standard

Bluetooth Mouse/Keyboard (2-button mouse. I simply won't buy another 1-button computer. If this is not available)

SOFTWARE

Office equivalent - Word Processor, Spreadsheet, Keynote, finished, with a lot of templates, etc. If you're gonna play play for real. The style of Keynote with the quality of Office X. Learn from those more successful than you, buy Omingraffle 3 and throw it in iWorks. IT people moving to mac still need Visio, and this app is superior on usability and Apple can add the polish and integration. Apple, you need this app.

iDVD - (A 2hr DVD better hold 2hrs of video)

iTunes - (Only comment: I own a $2500 iMac for iTunes and my iPod. Period. The rest is a bonus. Thank You.)

Finder - fully context-sensitive menus. If I have to go to the finder menu to clean up a windows my cursor is alread in in the year 2k4... it'll get ugly in here.

Finder - Implement the Home and End keys in the Finder and all other Apple software properly. ISVs are doing it, Apple should too.

Finder - With no additonal software/drivers XP mounts every digicam I have. I can drag and drop from its flash. Why is this functionality not in OS X. Catch up here.

That's it, was that too much to ask for? I don't think so. I'll be happy to buy another iMac at its premium pricing if everything above is included. I'd probably even become a mac evangelist.

I actually believe Apple has what it takes to have 25% marketshare in 2-5yrs. But there's an obsessive stubborness that is holding them back. Some Jerk somewhere in apple needs to be checked. In addition, a shift from margin to volume will have to begin. Also, the executive bonus program needs to be checked.

CLOSE LETTTER

[OutThere]

give it up

[funkywhat2]

Bitch, bitch, bitch. It's all anybody does anymore. :rolleyes:

If you have a need that can be fulfilled someplace else, go fulfill it. If you need all this, then a Mac just isn't right for you, at least current Macs aren't. Besides, it's unreasonable to drop two grand on something just to support a company, especially if that company doesn't make what you need.

Feel how you must, but don't bitch about it here.

[MorganX]

Originally posted by OutThere761
give it up

Why?

[MorganX]

Originally posted by funkywhat2
Bitch, bitch, bitch. It's all anybody does anymore. :rolleyes:

If you have a need that can be fulfilled someplace else, go fulfill it. If you need all this, then a Mac just isn't right for you, at least current Macs aren't. Besides, it's unreasonable to drop two grand on something just to support a company, especially if that company doesn't make what you need.

Feel how you must, but don't bitch about it here.

Lacking any meaningful substance but interesting nonetheless.

[springscansing]

Morgan, stop acting like you're 12.

You don't NEED a bluetooth keyboard for god sakes.

And if you think apple can have 25% of the marketshare in 2 years (which marketshare?) then you're totallly insane as well as immature.

[patrick0brien]

-To posters above this post other than MorganX

Why do you feel you need to step on MorganX here?

Even I don't agree with every item of his technical wish list, but getting a wish list out there is a good thing. It let's us talk about it, and, I know it comes as a shock, but Apple listens to it's cusomers pretty damn well.

Sure, "you can't please all the people all the time" but I'll take Apple's customer-centricity over Wintels "Jam it down the user's throat and they'll enjoy it wether the like it or not/You'll learn to love me" modus operandi.

Apple is driven by useability, Wintel, technology. An unused system is a useless system, this is why I prefer the slower OS X.

So please, MorganX makes a great point. Make lists. Apple might actually listen.

[Flowbee]

Apple already knows that everybody wants all of the latest features and hardware at a lower price. They already know that we want every application we could ever use to be bundled for free and upgraded for free for life.

Do you think you're telling them something new?

[MorganX]

Originally posted by Flowbee
Apple already knows that everybody wants all of the latest features and hardware at a lower price. They already know that we want every application we could ever use to be bundled for free and upgraded for free for life.

Do you think you're telling them something new?

Actually, I said current price plus a 20% increase in price for additional upgradeability features.)

Every application? An Office Suite and decent DVD burning software. That's every application? Free... There's nothing free from Apple. The bundled software is what justifies paying more for less is it not? Therefore, even with the 970, which isn't written in stone, to keep paying more for less a DVD buring app that is included with the hardware should burn 2hrs on a 2hr DVD.

What part of that is unreasonable again?

[MorganX]

Originally posted by springscansing
Morgan, stop acting like you're 12.

You don't NEED a bluetooth keyboard for god sakes.

And if you think apple can have 25% of the marketshare in 2 years (which marketshare?) then you're totallly insane as well as immature.

I don't NEED a Mac. I can buy a faster more capable PC for less, so what's your point? Clearly, I didn't by what I wanted. And I'm telling Apple what I want to stay with Apple in 2k4 because some good shiznit is happening in PC land.

What do you want to keep purchasing top of the line macs? Less? I'd be very interested in seeing your "mature" list of what you want for your money.

I'm serious. Tell me, what will make you buy another mac in 2k4? More wires when the world is going wireless? 30 minutes on a 2hr DVD? What?

2-5 years. Consumer/Prosumer (SOHO) market. But not unless they learn to "Think Different" :D

[Taft]

Morgan--

You are such a whiner! Why must you be such an ***hole and try to hold Apple to a higher standard? All evidence on this board points to Apple being absolutely infallible, so you're obviously a trolling jerk. Get a life! Then, when you've got a life, suck it up and be happy with the Mac you've got. Apple is perfect, so the Mac you've got must be perfect, too. Therefore, you've got nothing to complain about.

****!

Taft


BTW, this post was sarcastic. Those of you flaming Morgan deserve all the criticism you've poured on him/her. Re-read the first post...it was mainly constructive and layed out a fairly realitic roadmap for Apple to follow over the next couple years. Get a friggin' life!

[Macpoops]

You own a top of the line iMac and you sit here and say it is already out of date? I had the same machine and have absolutely no gripes about it. The iMac has never been and was never designed to be a upgradable machine. Because 90% of consumers don't do any real upgrading. They just buy the machine and use it. What you asking for is a powermac in an iMac case. And that is not going to happen. You may get your 970 but thats about it. You wanna bitch about firewire 800, I want you to tell me exactly what you plan on using it for, and why you can't do it with firewire 400. Same thing with USB2.

[jayscheuerle]

Morgan, if this is your final stand then enjoy Windows...

Your feature set sounds nice, but they're certainly not going to apply it to the consumer iMac if they're not applying it to the towers. We've been undersupplied in both processing power and standard RAM forever it seems...

It would be nice for Apple to offer options like cordless keyboards and mice, but it would also be nice for them to offer a bare-bones upgradeable tower that you could take your old components (drives, optical, zip, RAM, etc.) and just plop them into a basic powersupply/processor (upgradeable) box and go. But that's not the way Apple works.

Love 'em or leave 'em... - j

[MorganX]

Originally posted by Macpoops
You wanna bitch about firewire 800, I want you to tell me exactly what you plan on using it for, and why you can't do it with firewire 400. Same thing with USB2.

If you read and comprehended the post, I said I'd be willing to pay 20% on top of the existing premium for upgradeable options.

Bitching about FW800, asking for it is hardly bitching about it. I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about. I could tell you what I would like FW800 for but since I don't think I was "bitching" about FW800 I guess I won't.

But nevermind anything in my post, expound on yours. Explain to me how stating that to purchase another iMac I want FW800 in it, is bitching about it? Educate me.

Regarding the iMac being obsolete, I believe all Mac hardware of today, is obsolete the day you buy it. That doesn't stop people, myself included, from wanting one. Or wanting more ...

[Flowbee]

Originally posted by MorganX
Actually, I said current price plus a 20% increase in price for additional upgradeability features.)

Every application? An Office Suite and decent DVD burning software. That's every application? Free... There's nothing free from Apple. The bundled software is what justifies paying more for less is it not? Therefore, even with the 970, which isn't written in stone, to keep paying more for less a DVD buring app that is included with the hardware should burn 2hrs on a 2hr DVD.

What part of that is unreasonable again?

Who said unreasonable? My point was that Apple *already knows* their customers want all of this and more. Your 'open letter' isn't going to make a lightbulb suddenly switch on in some Apple execs head.

Don't get me wrong, I want all of the same things you do, it's just that *demanding* them in a public forum doesn't serve you well. If this thread had been titled "My Personal Wishlist" I don't think you'd be getting nearly as many negative responses.

[Taft]

Originally posted by Macpoops
You own a top of the line iMac and you sit here and say it is already out of date? I had the same machine and have absolutely no gripes about it. The iMac has never been and was never designed to be a upgradable machine. Because 90% of consumers don't do any real upgrading. They just buy the machine and use it. What you asking for is a powermac in an iMac case. And that is not going to happen. You may get your 970 but thats about it.

Putting your CPU on a friggin' daughter card (or making it otherwise replacable) is not to much to ask, and it doesn't make the iMac any less of a consumer machine or less user friendly. Why is this such a unrealistic or rediculous thing to ask for??


You wanna bitch about firewire 800, I want you to tell me exactly what you plan on using it for, and why you can't do it with firewire 400. Same thing with USB2.

Hmmmm...how about the same exact stuff I use firewire for, except higher transfer speeds. As drives get faster, we need a faster bus/transfer protocol to keep up. Think digital audio recording to an external firewire drive (recommended by most comercial digital audio software venders, incl. ProTools). I've got 6 tracks on disk, and I'm recording a seventh. Firewire 800 and an impressively fast HD no longer look like luxeries.

And there is no reason to exclude this technology from a so called consumer computer, at least as an extra cost option. As devices start to have higher data requirements, they will get faster and necessitate higher bus speeds. Its already happening.

Taft

[sedarby]

Originally posted by patrick0brien
-To posters above this post other than MorganX

Why do you feel you need to step on MorganX here?

Even I don't agree with every item of his technical wish list, but getting a wish list out there is a good thing. It let's us talk about it, and, I know it comes as a shock, but Apple listens to it's cusomers pretty damn well.

Sure, "you can't please all the people all the time" but I'll take Apple's customer-centricity over Wintels "Jam it down the user's throat and they'll enjoy it wether the like it or not/You'll learn to love me" modus operandi.

Apple is driven by useability, Wintel, technology. An unused system is a useless system, this is why I prefer the slower OS X.

So please, MorganX makes a great point. Make lists. Apple might actually listen.

MorganX did not make a list, he made demands. This is a very "either play my way or I'll take my things home" attitude. Very unrealistic and besides if he feels that Apple can't deliver then he needs to go Wintel with all the issues associated with it.

Good luck.

[MorganX]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
but it would also be nice for them to offer a bare-bones upgradeable tower that you could take your old components (drives, optical, zip, RAM, etc.) and just plop them into a basic powersupply/processor (upgradeable) box and go.
Love 'em or leave 'em... - j

Now that's asking for too much. :D

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by MorganX
Actually, I said current price plus a 20% increase in price for additional upgradeability features.)

Every application? An Office Suite and decent DVD burning software. That's every application? Free... There's nothing free from Apple. The bundled software is what justifies paying more for less is it not? Therefore, even with the 970, which isn't written in stone, to keep paying more for less a DVD buring app that is included with the hardware should burn 2hrs on a 2hr DVD.

What part of that is unreasonable again?


Okay, this is the only point that was really bothering me. What exactly is a 2hr DVD? Are you refering to a standard 4.7gig DVD blank? If so, the amount of video, in terms of minutes, that can be put onto the 4.7gig blank is completely dependent on that amount of compression. And the quality of said video is dependent on the quality of that compression. Squeezeing 2hrs of video onto a 4.7gig DVD using consumer sofware does not look pretty. I'm not a fan of the 60min ceiling on iDVD (I know it will burn 90min but I don't like the extra compression), but it's kinda pointless to extend the range to 2hrs when it will just look like *****. I'd like to see a DVD studio express program for maybe $200 but considering DVDSP 1.5 (and 2 when it's released) is only $499 I probably wouldn't buy an "express" version even if they offered one.



Lethal

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by MorganX
Now that's asking for too much. :D

Not really... (http://www.2khappyware.com/corecrib.html)

[Taft]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
Morgan, if this is your final stand then enjoy Windows...

Your feature set sounds nice, but they're certainly not going to apply it to the consumer iMac if they're not applying it to the towers. We've been undersupplied in both processing power and standard RAM forever it seems...

It would be nice for Apple to offer options like cordless keyboards and mice, but it would also be nice for them to offer a bare-bones upgradeable tower that you could take your old components (drives, optical, zip, RAM, etc.) and just plop them into a basic powersupply/processor (upgradeable) box and go. But that's not the way Apple works.

Love 'em or leave 'em... - j

This is such a sh***y attitude. Its almost as good as saying, "Don't like the US's current policies? Move to France!" As if running away from the things you love rather than trying to fix them is the best solution.

Why not try to inspire change in the company who makes you favorite computer? I think that's what this letter was all about. Its not about some idle threat or deep down hatred of Apple, its about trying to make Apple a better company. Its about wanting your favorite computer to be even better. Its about holding Apple to higher standards. Its about trying to inspire change for the good of a company and its users.

"Fine! Go to Wintel!" is not an acceptable reply to such aspirations.

Taft

[MorganX]

Originally posted by Flowbee

Don't get me wrong, I want all of the same things you do, it's just that *demanding* them in a public forum doesn't serve you well. If this thread had been titled "My Personal Wishlist" I don't think you'd be getting nearly as many negative responses.

This makes no sense to me Flowbee. What's the difference between "my personal wishlist" and "what I need to stay with apple in 2k4?"

[Taft]

Originally posted by sedarby
MorganX did not make a list, he made demands. This is a very "either play my way or I'll take my things home" attitude. Very unrealistic and besides if he feels that Apple can't deliver then he needs to go Wintel with all the issues associated with it.

Good luck.

He/she was being practical. These are his requirements to stay with the platform. Not demands, requirements. And they aren't that unreasonable.

And thats the main problem with Apple as it stands: rather than being forced to improve products because of customer backlash at under-performing hardware, Apple has a loyal base of customers keeping it afloat and allowing them to simply meet the status quo...or worse.

If there were more people like Morgan, Apple might take the situation more seriously. Because we need faster processors. We need better and more uniform customer service. We need faster buses. We need the latest and greatest technologies. We need to make Macs appealing to a wider range of people. And even if we don't need them in order for Apple to stay in business, we need them in order to keep Apple in the industry as an innovator and a maker of computers we can be proud of.

That concept is at the heart of Morgan's post and more people need to understand that.

Taft

[patrick0brien]

-Taft

It's good to see you weigh in :D

Where ya been?

(oo. I'm a poet - and didn't know it.)

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by MorganX
Regarding the iMac being obsolete, I believe all Mac hardware of today, is obsolete the day you buy it.

You may want to check your dictionary Morgan as to what obsolete means. Obsolete would mean that you can no longer use it for the things you need to do with it. I'm running a beige G3400 at home for my music and web surfing, even light design? and I have no compulsion to upgrade. People are happily using pre-PowerPC machines for basic word-processing and email. If that's all they want to do, their machines aren't obsolete. And that's by definition...

Perhaps you mean by the time the machine is sold, it's no longer cutting edge?

- j

- to add- Since I primarily use my home box for iTunes and surfing, there is really very little reason for me to stay with Apple when that box dies, especially if iTunes for Windows comes out. I can pick up a more than adequate (for what I need) PC for $500...

[rainman::|:|]

buy a goddamned powermac already. or leave the platform. apple has better things to do than cater to a single brat that *needs* features that NO one needs, and wants a ****load of pro features in a consumer machine. you're cheap, you're obnoxious, and you're wrong.

pnw

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by Taft
This is such a sh***y attitude. Its almost as good as saying, "Don't like the US's current policies? Move to France!" As if running away from the things you love rather than trying to fix them is the best solution.

Why not try to inspire change in the company who makes you favorite computer? I think that's what this letter was all about. Its not about some idle threat or deep down hatred of Apple, its about trying to make Apple a better company. Its about wanting your favorite computer to be even better. Its about holding Apple to higher standards. Its about trying to inspire change for the good of a company and its users.

"Fine! Go to Wintel!" is not an acceptable reply to such aspirations.

Taft

Actually Taft,

The title of Morgan's post is "What I need to stay with Apple in 2K4". If he's honest about needing these things to stay with Apple and has the integrity to stick to his guns, then he will be running a Wintel Box in 2K4 as these requests are not going to happen. I didn't tell him to go to Windoze, but was merely pointing out the finality of such a pronouncement.

Simple as that. I'm a sympathizer...

A little edgy today? - j

[MorganX]

Originally posted by paulwhannel
pro features in a consumer machine. you're cheap, you're obnoxious, and you're wrong.
pnw

Pro features in a consumer machine. I laugh at that. And if Apple can't offer me what I want in 2k4, I will go back.

By the way, the substance, construction, and content of your post has really displayed your high intellect. Thanks for sharing it.

[MorganX]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
as these requests are not going to happen.


Now I'm really starting to worry about you guys. Exactly what part of that request do you believe is simply "not going to happen?"

FW800? pfft. Do you think Apple will put a 970 in the high end iMac without it?

They're already working on iWorks.

Do you think they'll put a Geforce4 MX with a 970?

In the face of countless sub $100 DVD authoring apps that can compress quite good video onto a 2hr DVD on the Intel platform do you think iDVD will continue to be meaningful in its current state?

The upgradeability options are optional. Realizing the financial state Apple's in I would be willing to pay 20% over the top.

I'm not sure that those who are having mild seizures even know what they're upset about. That I won't buy "another" iMac without the features or equivalent I mentioned? I guess that's too bad. You buy can buy the one I won't. And the one 95% of buyers won't.

I will have what I want, whether it comes from Apple or someone else. I would like it to come from Apple. If it doesn't it doesn't. I only get irate and idignant like you guys over women.

[jayscheuerle]

Not gonna happen:

64-128MB DDR Video RAM - (doubtful for iMac)

FW800 (stick with 400 in iMac)

USB 2.0 (Steve's ego)

PPC 970 or performance equivalent to P4 2.4Mhz across the board (socketed for upgradability) Stick with a G4 in iMac.

512MB DDR Standard (256, Apple is always under RAM'd)

266MHz FSB minimum (Beyond 266MHz I have only seen minimal gains except in 3D Games. I'll take more, but 266Mhz is minimum) (Apple doesn't even know what one of these does)

------------------------------

It's not that Apple can't do these things, but they want to differentiate between Pro and Consumer. Personally, I don't see why the iMac isn't considered a high-end machine, but this isn't my business.

I'm hoping Apple comes out with something great (and practical) before my beige box dies because I can't afford a new mac tower and I have no use for an "all in one" model. The "Dark Side" is often just the "Inexpensive Side" or the "Practical Side"... - j

[macktheknife]

I really don't understand why everyone is giving MorganX such an awful time. I've been looking through a few similiar comments on MR, and the mean-spirited vitriol that spews from these threads is quite amazing. Anyone who criticizes Apple, apparently, is a some clueless troll who just doesn't get it. As a recent switcher, I cannot understand why so many Macusers love Apple and Macs so unconditionally.

[jxyama]

I think many of us Mac users get very antsy over a post like this for one reason: it makes the poster sounds like he/she is doing Apple an favor by favoring/using/purchasing their products.

"I am an Apple user and I like Apple, but if they don't do this and that, I'm gonna go buy a PC that is more capable and half the price." A message like this is posted every once in a while... Because he/she thinks he/she is doing Apple a favor, he/she feels entitled to demand something in return for their "favors." I think this is the reason many people get ticked off with a post like this.

"If you want to leave, leave then."

Apple is a company, a profit driven company, I am sure it's trying to figure out ways to improve their products and offer good stuff instead of sitting on past laurels. I think I like the idea of discussing wishlists to see what different people want but I think there might have been a better way post it without the demanding and "reverse-switching" threat tone.

[MorganX]

>>64-128MB DDR Video RAM - (doubtful for iMac)

- The iMac already has 64MB DDR video memory. I only included the memory spec because I don't put it past Apple to up the GPU and try to squeeze profit clipping the video RAM.

>>FW800 (stick with 400 in iMac), Stick with a G4 in iMac.

Why? Why cripple it if you can sell it at a profit? To keep a consumer and pro machine? That has little purpose. You have cheap and expensive machines. The expensive machine should have as much as you can put in it and sell for profit at a resonable price. Not too many people want PowerMacs, period. So keep selling what people want. Not was you want them to want.

>>USB 2.0 (Steve's ego)

Do you think this is OK, normal for a business? If not, why just say fuggetabout it? SJ goes to the bathroom just like I do. His may be gold-plated but that doesn't stop the stink.

>>512MB DDR Standard (256, Apple is always under RAM'd)

So lets just resign ourselves that despite the low cost of RAM, Apple's always going to be uner RAM'd which hurts potential sales and has a delterious affect on price/performance.

>>266MHz FSB minimum (Apple doesn't even know what one of these does)

Well lets you and I let 'em know by telling them if you want me to buy another <insert mac model here> I want it.

>>It's not that Apple can't do these things, but they want to differentiate between Pro and Consumer.

This Pro/Consumer thingy needs to go away. And I think it will. When the 970 doesn't do much for generating new PowerMac sales, maybe Apple will finally get it. The sooner the better, I will, and I'm sure many more would pay a premium for a tricked out iMac. But I have not interest in even a free PowerMac.

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by MorganX
I'm sure many more would pay a premium for a tricked out iMac. But I have not interest in even a free PowerMac.

Interesting!

I'd happily pay for a bare-bones tower, but have no interest in an iMac. :D

[lmalave]

Originally posted by paulwhannel
buy a goddamned powermac already. or leave the platform. apple has better things to do than cater to a single brat that *needs* features that NO one needs, and wants a ****load of pro features in a consumer machine. you're cheap, you're obnoxious, and you're wrong.

pnw

The problem is that the iMacs are not consumer-priced. For a premium price, Macs should deliver premium performance. There used to be a time when Macs had the best operating system *and* the fastest hardware. Now, I think Apple is getting there with the 970, and I didn't find Morgan's post to be unreasonable. Everything he requested is quite reasonable to expect in an $1800 iMac by the end of next year.


I really don't understand all the reactions on this board. I bought my iBook and iPod because I thought the were the best values on the market for what I was looking for. When it comes time to buy a new desktop, I will consider Apple if it can lower the price or raise its performance/features to the point where I think they are a good value. They just haven't done it for me yet with the eMacs, iMacs, or PowerMacs.

[Taft]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle

A little edgy today? - j

Actually, a little sick of Mac-zealots today. :)

Way too many people are baching this guy for posting a *relatively* realistic set of expectations and requirements. You made a guess at which of these features will make it into the next iMac and basically called Morgan wrong, but you have no idea, do you? You could be very, very wrong.

And none of this changes the basic intent of the original post.

I'm a huge fan of Apple, but I occasionally get sick of people trumpeting their greatness without admitting their shortfalls. While you might not be one of those people, you are certainly one of those being unnecessarily harsh here.

Taft

[patrick0brien]

Originally posted by macktheknife
I cannot understand why so many Macusers love Apple and Macs so unconditionally.

-macktheknife

This is one of the more apt questions I've seen dicussed in recent times. And there are many different theories flying about as to why this appears to be true.

I for one, love Apple for it's products and always watch what they're about to pull out of their hats (via Uncle Steve of course).

As a longtime Apple user starting with an Apple ][ plus way back in the day, it's been an interesting road.

I personally don't love Apple unconditionally however, but I do find myself on their side a lot. They're vastly misunderstood by the rest of the world, and as (by my guess) most Mac users are Wintel users as well. And having feet in both camps, they have the perspective and experience to debate this things.

Some Mac users take very personally anything they can view as an attack on Apple, and that's part-and-parcel to the fact that Apple customers are better defined as Fans, rather that simple consumers. Additionally, Mac users consider their machine to be a friend and not just a tool, and by extension, Apple, not just any other company.

So by default, Apple users are a loyal bunch, and when their loyalties are questioned, or their "friend" doubted, there will invariable be an uprising of sorts.

This passion can be negative at times, but all-in-all, I enjoy being a part of it.

Did that help? :D

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by Taft
You made a guess at which of these features will make it into the next iMac and basically called Morgan wrong, but you have no idea, do you? You could be very, very wrong.


-and nothing would make me happier.
:cool:

[MorganX]

Originally posted by jxyama
I think many of us Mac users get very antsy over a post like this for one reason: it makes the poster sounds like he/she is doing Apple an favor by favoring/using/purchasing their products.


I do feel that way. I do McDonalds a favor when I go to them over Burger King. You're doing them a favor too.

I believe every customer, in a competitive society/market should feel that way.

[chewbaccapits]

"I knew the iMac would be obsolete by the end of the year because it was close to that when I bought it. But I bought it to support Apple and becuase I tire of the Wintel world..."
Morgan x


I always ask this when people complain that their system is obsolete...But what do you use your computer for? Obsolete? Isn't your processor twice as fast as mine? I have a powermac G4 450 sawtooth...One of the first generation G4 computers and it still woops ass. I use FCP 3,DVDSP, Flash MX and your other various adobe products. How can you claim that?

[MorganX]

Originally posted by lmalave
Everything he requested is quite reasonable to expect in an $1800 iMac by the end of next year.

Woohoo! I'll take two, overnight in fact. :D

I'd be whistling dixie if they could pack all that for $1800. I'm thinking $2200. $2400 if GPU is upgradeable. $2700 if GPU & CPU were upgradeable.

[bertagert]

Ok Morgan - a few things first.

1. Your letter would get tossed in the trash can for the simple reasons that you sound like your 15 years old and hangout on mac rumor sites. For example: FP iMac (professional letter would read Flat Panel or even current iMac), BS (thats professional), 17" or 19" (maybe a 19" screen isn't possible so don't jump to conclusions on things that don't even exist).

2. You said you'd pay 20% for certain upgradable parts. If you're willing to spend extra, get a power mac. It will cost the same by the time you get done with it.

3. The Office software thing. Microsoft makes it and it works just fine. If not, you can use a few others. Why does Apple have to make it?

4. you don't need firewire 800. Even if you could buy a camera or what ever that suppots fw800, your imac wasn't designed for those needs. It will happen eventually but not in 2004.

5. The bus thing. Well Apple depends on others companies for processors and since the bus and processor have to work together, it will be out of Apples hands for right now.

6. Bluetooth mouse keyboard. Logitech makes them (although radio not blue tooth) and they work fine. The mouse actually has 4 buttons and a scroll wheel to boot.

So lets say your wish list doesn't come true. Are you going to jump ship and go with Dell, Gateway, Micron? When you write your letter to them, how are you going to ask them to make anything on your list? They don't make mice, keyboards, motherboards, office software, or Firewire built in (on a compariable consumer machine) especially fw800. So will you come back to mac then?

You might say you could get half the stuff at a cheaper cost when you make the switch. Yes and no on that. Apple has created a experince with there computers and software. When people see a Apple computer/ipod/OSX, they are in awe. How come no one does that around a Dell or HP machine?

Don't bother sending your letter in without the neccessary corrections.

[matthew24]

If it comes to contents Morgan has some very good points. I am a switcher myself and am a very satisfied user, nevertheless Apple should steal some nice features back from the windows platform, but seems to be too stubborn/proud to do so; Two button mouse, the home/end (begin of line) cntr/alt function keys, (Windows keyboard shortcuts handling is quicker/ more clear), USB 2.0. Apple is looking for switchers, that's why I think they should focus a little bit more about the most populair/best features of windows. (Even if it ain't many.)
But let's be honest Apple has been working very hard and if you have been following their innovations and rumors we don't need to worry, but we should have some patience.

If you do have some reservations, there is no reasonable alternative (I have seen it), and if we drop Apple way to quick, Apple could be too easy sabotaged by the monopoly power of MS. Our support of Apple is still critical, special now while Apple is recovering of the neglectance of innovations at Motorola.

[Fukui]

DVD+R/RW (You only hurt customers and potential customers when you don't know when to give it up.)

Actually, now they use the sony drives which do support all the "standards" you can use toast to access them all, OS X only supports DVD-R I believe..something like that...

As to your wish list, I agree. I am a former wintel user myself, and I so wish I could buy an iMac to replace my Cube, but they just aren't high-end enough, and I don't want some noisy powermac either, thats why I have a G4 cube <30db baby!!

I would really like it if they supported those replaceable notebook GPUs, I am not sure about the CPU being upgradeable on such a small system, but that would be nice.

I know apple has a powermac feedback page but they don't have one for the iMac.
If you really want their attention though, don't post your request here, send it as as a "Switchers story" on their switch page, you can be guaranteed that they want to know what PC users *really* think about their products. It can only benefit them.

As for becoming obsolete, if the definition of obsolete is "not as fast as the others in the same price range" yea the iMac is sorta obsolete, but usually it means "useless" like my old PII...

Peace.

[iJon]

morgan, i would really be interested in the reasons why you want each of these things. if you can just be specific about your reasons why these are a must and what you plan on using them for.

iJon

[MorganX]

Originally posted by chewbaccapits
"I knew the iMac would be obsolete by the end of the year because it was close to that when I bought it. But I bought it to support Apple and becuase I tire of the Wintel world..."
Morgan x


I always ask this when people complain that their system is obselete...But what do you use your computer for? Obsolete? Isn't your processor twice as fast as mine? I have a powermac G4 450 sawtooth...One of the first generation G4 computers and it still woops ass. I use FCP 3,DVDSP, Flash MX and your other various adobe products. How can you claim that?

Maybe obsolete was a little harsh. Heading toward obsolescence? I had to make a trade, what I wanted in the iMac, plus getting away from Wintel, or a while at least, and doing all the fun stuff I've been missing.

Now, FCP and DVDSP. Going by the performance of iMove and iDVD I can't imagine that on a G4 450 given my performance on a 1GHz G4.

It could be ethnocentrism. I'm coming from a 2Ghz PIV overclocked to 2.4Ghz with 333Mhz DDR. It ate video conversion for lunch.

edit: and it cost me about $850 to build.

[MorganX]

Originally posted by Fukui

Actually, now they use the sony drives which do support all the "standards" you can use toast to access them all, OS X only supports DVD-R I believe..something like that...


I received my iMac after 2/14/03 and it has the Pioneer DVD-R. Wasn't lucky enough to get one of the Sonys.

[Fukui]

1. Your letter would get tossed in the trash can for the simple reasons that you sound like your 15 years old and hangout on mac rumor sites. For example: FP iMac (professional letter would read Flat Panel or even current iMac), BS (thats professional), 17" or 19" (maybe a 19" screen isn't possible so don't jump to conclusions on things that don't even exist). He's just requesting what he wants.
Big deal.

2. You said you'd pay 20% for certain upgradable parts. If you're willing to spend extra, get a power mac. It will cost the same by the time you get done with it.
Too noisy, not as elegant as a iMac.
Wayyyy overpriced (1Ghz and a Geforce4 MX should not be $1400)


3. The Office software thing. Microsoft makes it and it works just fine. If not, you can use a few others. Why does Apple have to make it? Because as long as apple has to bow down to MS they are forever putting their chances over a smoking fire. MS is like the mafia to apple, its better to move out of the neighborhood before they try to bribe/extort/kill them again (which they have done).

4. you don't need firewire 800. Even if you could buy a camera or what ever that supports fw800, your imac wasn't designed for those needs. It will happen eventually but not in 2004.
Thankyou for telling us what we need and don't need, how do you know??I bet by 2004 iMacs WILL have fw800. BTW the customer is always right.

5. The bus thing. Well Apple depends on others companies for processors and since the bus and processor have to work together, it will be out of Apples hands for right now.
Not for long.

6. Bluetooth mouse keyboard. Logitech makes them (although radio not blue tooth) and they work fine. The mouse actually has 4 buttons and a scroll wheel to boot.
Again, we already pay the premium for apple's hardware, on a high-end 1800 dollar computer, the least they could include would be a BT mouse.

[Fukui]

I received my iMac after 2/14/03 and it has the Pioneer DVD-R. Wasn't lucky enough to get one of the Sonys.
Yea, you can replace it if you really need it, its just a little "messy" if you know what I mean.

[bertagert]

Again:

He's just requesting what he wants.

He's not doing it in a professional/elegant way. He sounds like he just came from the rumor boards instead of through a educated thought out process.

Too noisy, not as elegant as a iMac.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder of course. As for the noise, it doesn't bother me on my 1.25 gig.

Because as long as apple has to bow down to MS they are forever putting their chances over a smoking fire. MS is like the mafia to apple, its better to move out of the neighborhood before they try to bribe/extort/kill them again (which they have done).

Again, that wasn't his point. He's telling apple to make it. Yet, Dell, HP, etc. don't make a office product.

Thankyou for telling us what we need and don't need, how do you know??I bet by 2004 iMacs WILL have fw800. BTW the customer is always right.

Its not me telling you what you want. Its what your buying thats telling you what your getting. Your buying a consumer machine but asking for pro performance. Nothing wrong with that . Your just not going to get it for awhile.

BTW, the customer isn't always right. They just don't understand or didn't read the owners manual half the time. Just because you demand a feature doesn't mean the company has to bow to you. Thats why they're in business (because if the made every thing you wanted at your price they would go broke!)

Not for long.

yes for the long haul. Apple will still be dependent on moto or ibm or whom ever to make the processor. So nothing there will change.

Again, we already pay the premium for apple's hardware, on a high-end 1800 dollar computer, the least they could include would be a BT mouse.

You pay a preium for dell/Gateway/etc. yet they don't make bluetooth mice. They don't even make mice.

[sparks9]

Apple definitely needs to put MORE RAM in the computers by standard. 128 mb don't go long these days. I'm sure ram is the biggest bottleneck in most new Apple computers.

[MorganX]

>>1. Your letter would get tossed in the trash can for the simple reasons that you sound like your 15 years old and hangout on mac rumor sites. For example: FP iMac (professional letter would read Flat Panel or even current iMac), BS (thats professional), 17" or 19" (maybe a 19" screen isn't possible so don't jump to conclusions on things that don't even exist).<<

Chuckle, my letter was on a mac rumor site. Do you really think I would send a letter to Apple with SJ from a "Customer wants" perspective. I'd have the secretary write it and wouldn't disclose it on a mac rumors site.

Having said that, given the culture that is supposed to exist at Apple, I would have no qualms whatsoever about writing and informal letter to them.

You can do a lot more as a customer as opposed to being a business associate.

>>2. You said you'd pay 20% for certain upgradable parts. If you're willing to spend extra, get a power mac. It will cost the same by the time you get done with it.<<

I don't want a PowerMac even with all those things.

>>3. The Office software thing. Microsoft makes it and it works just fine. If not, you can use a few others. Why does Apple have to make it?<<

Becasue they are already making it and if they can do it with the style and elegance of Keynote, I'll be one happy mac user. If they make it, and don't really finish it, like Keynote (don't ask me, if you have it and are realistic you know the things that are missing or need fixing.)?

This one I'll withdraw, I won't not purchase an iMac in 2k4 if Apple doesn't have their Office Suite together.

>>4. you don't need firewire 800. Even if you could buy a camera or what ever that suppots fw800, your imac wasn't designed for those needs. It will happen eventually but not in 2004.<<

This is a problem that hopefully someone will start a thread on. It would be a thread I would enjoy reading. This pro/con-sumer designation can't continue IMO.

>> 5. The bus thing. Well Apple depends on others companies for processors and since the bus and processor have to work together, it will be out of Apples hands for right now.<<

I disagree. Apple can ensure this in their selection of their next-gen architecture. The only thing that will stop it is the pro/consumer tiering practice.

>>6. Bluetooth mouse keyboard. Logitech makes them (although radio not blue tooth) and they work fine. The mouse actually has 4 buttons and a scroll wheel to boot.<<

Still desired, from Apple, but withdrawn. This wouldn't keep me from purchasing another iMac.

>>So lets say your wish list doesn't come true. Are you going to jump ship and go with Dell, Gateway, Micron?<<

For personal use I've never purchased and name brand PC in 15 years. If I can't get the iMac I want, I'll probably build a dual processor PC with widescreen display wait for longhorn, I'll keep the iMac or give it to a loved one.

>>When you write your letter to them, how are you going to ask them to make anything on your list? They don't make mice, keyboards, motherboards, office software, or Firewire built in (on a compariable consumer machine)?<<

I loved my iPod on my PC first. $35 3 Firewire 2 USB 2.0 ports. Taht's a whole different, story. There are those who want a bare-bones PowerMac for just such easy to implement consumer coponents.

>>Apple has created a experince with there computers and software. When people see a Apple computer/ipod/OSX, they are in awe.<<

Awe is a little strong, but I do "love" my iPod. But not the new one ;>

Fortunately for Apple there's no competitor better than or as good as my current 5G.

[MorganX]

Originally posted by iJon
morgan, i would really be interested in the reasons why you want each of these things. if you can just be specific about your reasons why these are a must and what you plan on using them for.

iJon

I'll will, but I've done no work today thanks to this thread. I'll keep my Mac dreams to myself next time. I'll answer you later. Just promise not to give me the pro/consumer argument.

BTW, who needs an Infiniti FX 45 when you can get a Toyota Celica? <grin> No, that's not may answer.

[patrick0brien]

-MoganX

52 replies in 4.5 hours.

My hat is off to you :) :)

I hope found some of the answers you sought.

[beez7777]

Originally posted by MorganX
I don't NEED a Mac. I can buy a faster more capable PC for less, so what's your point? Clearly, I didn't by what I wanted. And I'm telling Apple what I want to stay with Apple in 2k4 because some good shiznit is happening in PC land.


NOTE: I POSTED THIS UNDER THE WRONG U/N. I AM REALLY FUNKYWHAT2. NOTICE THIS, PLEASE.

Which is what I said to do. Damn, you're a little whiny one aren't you.

If you want pro speed you need a PRO model. Hence their being considered PRO models. if you want raw power that you can get in a Wintel, get a Wintel. Apple's not going to notice if you didn't buy a computer from them, and we aren't going to care.

[bertagert]

Morgan,

Glad to hear your willing to conceed to a few things. Makes for a good debate.

I didn't realise this letter was just to this board because it was addressed to Apple. But lets drop that now.

You said the consumer/pro lines need to mesh. I think from a business standpoint, that will never go away. Reasons why:

You would want apple to have all the high end compents in a box but that would mean there wouldn't be a $799 machine anymore. Having prices like that aren't for the idea of selling a ton of cheap machines. They price it that way so people look at they're system and then hope they'll upgrade to a more expensive machine. From computers to lawnmowers, this is how businesses get you in the door. So, what I'm saying is, Apple and everyone else, need to have the seprate lines.

The bus thing will still be a problem. -

Apple doesn't have the muscle to push ibm or moto around. This is quit relevant as the current moto processors aren't what Apple wants/needs. Trying to push ibm would get you in the same place. Lets just hope, if the ibm 970 is to come, that ibm will increease to power and technology like we want them to. It would be great to not have to talk about how sucky moto is and why we apple geeks are slower than intel.

As for building your own system -

I think you would be in the same boat because your not getting what you need/want. So i still don't think you'll be happy. So buy another imac so you can hang out in here and talk shop (as in, you'll still have a mac to look at and talk about).

As for ipods, I'm getting my first one on Saturday (30 gig from Best Buy) Never touched the new one yet so I'll let you know how it turns out.

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by MorganX
Pro features in a consumer machine. I laugh at that. And if Apple can't offer me what I want in 2k4, I will go back.

By the way, the substance, construction, and content of your post has really displayed your high intellect. Thanks for sharing it.

i'm a card carrying mensan. are you? :D

i'm sorry, but the FW800 request puts your post in the garbage IMHO. You tell me ONE thing you will use FW800 for. Planning on using a large RAID? because it's the only device i can think of that would make FW800 useful. You want apple to put a useless feature into a computer which will make it more expensive to produce, and you want them to drop the price? not bloody likely. You obviously have no idea how the business world operates-- and you obviously don't understand the concepts of luxury items and conspicuous consumerism. i'm gonna throw the car thing out again, groan if you will: you will not get BMW to release a cheap car with more features by bitching at them. You will not get a lexus for under $20,000. Accept it and move on. frankly, i think your whining does you a great disservice in the way of reputation here.

pnw

[iJon]

Originally posted by MorganX
I'll will, but I've done no work today thanks to this thread. I'll keep my Mac dreams to myself next time. I'll answer you later. Just promise not to give me the pro/consumer argument.

BTW, who needs an Infiniti FX 45 when you can get a Toyota Celica? <grin> No, that's not may answer.
no no, im not here to bash you or anything, i was just seeing what you needed to help you see if there are any alternatives to help you now.

iJon

[MorganX]

Originally posted by Fukui
Yea, you can replace it if you really need it, its just a little "messy" if you know what I mean.

I don't want to void the warranty on the iMac, do you know if an Apple Service Center can do it?

If not, any details on doing it yourself would be appreciated. If for no other reason, I could not find a DVD-R at Best Buy yesterday, +RW out the wazoo.

[MorganX]

>>i'm a card carrying mensan. are you? :D<<

No I'm not, but can you hook me up with Sharon Stone?

>>i'm sorry, but the FW800 request puts your post in the garbage IMHO. You tell me ONE thing you will use FW800 for.<<

Jon this is your answer also. I don't have to have it now. But I will have to have it if/when I purchase another PC in 2k4. And I will, and I will be doing even more stuff that can always be faster.

I do al my DV editing and playback on a Lacie D2 firewire drive on my iMac. I do wait on the HD quite often. It's a soldier and it's quite usable. But, if I buy another iMac in 2k4, I'll need FW800. And yes, i will buy an FW800 external.

I just don't get this. This is like Intel saying we're going to reserve Serial ATA for high end servers. Yes, it will be utilize more and a greater percentage of the time in low cost RAID devices, but hey, destkops will benefit also. You raise the bar to continue generating sales.

No more USB 1.0 chips from Intel. If you never buy a 2.0 device, well, when you do you're ready. So buy a PC and you won't be left behind, within reason of course.

Even when Intel does play the pro/consumer squeeze game, they make sure users can easily upgrade when they catch on and get PO'd.

Enough BS, FP, and PR. Time for some T&A. Have a good weekend all, didn't mean to raise everyones blood pressure.

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by MorganX

I do al my DV editing and playback on a Lacie D2 firewire drive on my iMac. I do wait on the HD quite often. It's a soldier and it's quite usable. But, if I buy another iMac in 2k4, I'll need FW800. And yes, i will buy an FW800 external.


Just as an FYI if you are having problems or dropped frames the HDD is to blame, not FW. FW400 has more than enough bandwidth to handle DV. In fact, AJA just released a break out box, called Io, that allows you to, among other things, capture 10-bit uncompressed video via a single firewire hookup.

http://www.aja.com/io.htm

Lethal

[vniow]

I don't think any of MorganX's hardware requests are unreasonable at all, the one difference between say an iMac or a brand new Sony (both of which my parents were considering when they were in the market for a new computer) is upgradability.

On the iMac you can upgrade (without voiding the warranty) the RAM, the Airport card and.....and.....well that's about it.
You can technically upgrade the hard drive, optical drive and even the logic board (assuming you could actually find one) but that's about it.
The processor is soldered onto the logic board as is the graphics card.
So is the display, unless you want to try a risky hack to the 17", you can't hook up a monitor with a different resolution that the screen itself and even then you're only limited to a VGA connection, no DVI flat panel here...

If you want Bluetooth on an iMac and you didn't get it installed when you bought it, you have to have this ugly dongle hanging out from a USB port, or how about USB 2.0?
Nada, unless some transformer box that comes out on the market and magically transforms Firewire to USB..

802.11g? (unless it already supports it)
Nope, unless some 3rd party comes out with an adapter that hooks up to the regular Airport slot...

FW 800?
Not a chance in hell unless you can somehow bridge two FW 400 ports together or something...

The arguments against these usually go something like this; are you going to use these technoligies?
"Well....not really..."
So quit your whining and deal with it, go back to a PC, see what we care..!

But that's not really the point now is it?

The point MorganX is trying to make is upgradeability or lack thereof, even though he may never use any of the things that you can currently not upgrade the iMac to, he is stating that he should be able to have the option to if he wishes and I agree with him.

On my parents Sony, even though it was pretty well equipped to begin with, its got a few PCI slots free on it so if we ever decide to put an 802.11g (or even 802.11a) card in it, BAM!
There goes one PCI slot or maybe it can even be external, its already got plenty of USB 2.0 slots open and I wouldn't be suprised to see an external 802.11g/a solution out sometime in the future since there are already plenty of USB 802.11b adapters..

Or what if we decide to get a Bluetooth phone and sync it with our computer?
Okay, that'll still be an ugly USB dongle, blah.

Firewire 800?
BAM! There goes another PCI slot!

Want to upgrade the processor to a 3.06Ghz PIV with Hyperthreading?
Can if we want...

Upgrade the hard drive?
Hell, there's space for at least two, if that damn useles floppy/Memory Stick slot was removed, I'll bet there could be three...

Upgrade the optical drive(s)?
No problem, its got a DVD+/-RW drive so its a bit future proof in that regard but if a faster one comes out, then we can just pop it in without voiding the warranty.

Replace the graphics card?
Nope. no problems here...

And the best part about it is....none of the above will void the warranty (except for maybe the processor)

But the real point of all this is with the Sony it can be upgraded pretty much however we choose, with an iMac we would have been stuck with what it came with and would have had to throw it away/donate it to something/or sell it and get a new one if we wanted some of the latest goodies.

I would like to see a small expandable computer similar to Shuttle Cubes when the 970 boards come around, those things are pretty small but you can fit quite a bit inside and the newest ones don't have the cooling problems that the first revision had, they come with one one full size AGP and one full size PCI slot so you can put whatever graphics card you wish and whatever you want in the second slot.
An Apple version of this would probably be similar (although more stylish) with one AGP and one PCI and while it would be legacy free (unlike the Shuttles which include parallel and serial ports...http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=251202) it would have at least one FW 800 port and a couple FW 400 (maybe even one on front?) USB 2.0 (no reason not to unclude it) one space for a 5.25" optical drive, space for at least one 3.5" hard drive and an upgradeable CPU socket.

Granted the small expendable desktop market is a niche right now but its growing fast, Shuttle expects to ship more of its little barebones systems this year than Apple expects to ship Powermacs and that's not including all the other little Shuttle clones out there....

So yeah, I don't think it would be a bad thing if they made the iMac line more upgradeable, it certainly doesn't hurt PC sales and it would lead to longer longetivity and more usablilty when they become older, there's plenty of older iMacs out now that are running 10.2 without any trouble but they could be running it a lot better if they were more upgradeable, and if they don't do that, then I'd like to see a display-less mini-desktop for the geekier group of Mac users who like to tweak and mess with their computers a bit, there's only so much you can do to an iMac....

[coolsoldier]

I agree with MorganX that apple needs to get at least semi-competitive with PC Technology to keep users. The pro models should have ALL of the high-end features in the market. The iMac is a consumer model and doesn't need upgradability BUT they need to get the performance issues down. If Apple can't convince me that their performance, technology, and price combonation doesn't make them a dying platform, it will be hard to justify investing any more money in it. I love apple and have been a devoted user, but I AM NOT AN UNCONDITIONAL CONSUMER and I will not invest anymore money in Apple hardware or software unless they can prove to me that they still have viability in the computer market. It's looking more and more like they don't.

[edit: I don't really care which way they go, but we need either competitive performance, competitive tchnology or competitive pricing to remain a viable platform --and The MacRumors user base doesn't make a very big consumer base; The number of "Mac Faithful" is dwindling at an alarming rate.]

[trebblekicked]

i know it's an old comment, but:

Originally posted by MorganX
Now, FCP and DVDSP. Going by the performance of iMove and iDVD I can't imagine that on a G4 450 given my performance on a 1GHz G4.

iMovie and iDVD run about 20% the speed of FCP3 and DVDSP 1.5 on my quicksilver. program complexity is not necessarilly an indication of speed. i would agree, however, that idvd 3 is painfully slow.

[humantech]

Morgan-
going to Windows is a choice we all must struggle with. For me, OS X , The designs of the hardware ( and yes, the new chips coming sound NICE) are MORE than enough to stay far away from windows- For you, it seems like you have a more specific list-- I for one think that they will probably exceed your performance expectations ( But maybe not by using a specific hardware mix that you are mentioning)
I Agree that soon we will see a fairly noticeable mass exodus to apple gear from the pc side ( although 25% in two years might be a little ambitious) , but I disagree they need to leave margin and go to volume- That is the way of Dell and wintel overall--- I think they keep responsibly lowering pricing and make up margin on media services, But keep their high margins- That is the reason they can afford R&D, slow periods, wartime, stock market crashes and the rest- I for one think they deserve a third for the product they sell, so paying them 28 or so percent makes me feel like I'm getting a bargain---javascript:smilie(':D')
As always, my 2 cents---

[toughboy]

you know what, everything that I had requested on the feedback reports is now on the new generation iPods.. So, apple actually does listen to us...

and what morganX did is quite intresting by the way...

to the buddy talking about bluetooth keyboard: man, I really do want bluetooth keyboard and mouse!! and i can pay them a 100$ is released.. and I agree about one-click mice of apple.. they should release 2 buttons, even 3-4 button ones, just like micro$oft do...

whatever... in my opinion, morganX is in the right way, just let apple be no1!...;)

[bertagert]

vniow,

First:
I hope that "thing" you created isn't your baby. YIKES!!!

Second:
I think everyone needs to understand something. The imac and ibook are not computers that people will be upgrading. Even if they were, people still wouldn't do it. Why? Because the people that buy them have no inkling to do so. Yes, there are a few who have purchased it that may want a new hard drive in the next couple years but, in the numbers game, I bet 95 - 98% of people buying these systems have no desire to upgrade except for buying a new system when the time comes. So, as Apple Computer, why would you put resources into developing something that only 2 - 5% of the people want?

As for your parents Sony. I'll bet the only time that thing gets upgraded, if at all, will be performed by you. Your parents aren't going to do it. This is exactly who the imac/ibook are targeted too.

If you want the ability to upgrade, you should be looking at the powermac. If you like the imac for looks and what ever, I understand why you wouldn't want the powerbook. If its for $$, then you're out of luck. But what are your alternatives? Gateway Profile?

Or, another way to look at it, you can upgrade the imac. New hardrive, go get one and put it in or get an external. More ram, go get the biggest one you can stick in there. Its not sold as a power machine so having tons of ram will never be an option nor should it be. Graphics card, I'm not sure so I won't comment. There you go, computer upgraded.

Thats all for this week :)

[QCassidy352]

Ok, the MorganX said what he wanted, and this degenerated in to a debate about his wishlist. But he also asked others to put what they wanted, so I'm not saying another word about MorganX's wish list. Here's what *I'd* (realistically) like by mid 2004 from apple (I'd hope a little more by the end of the year, so I'm thinking a year or a little more from right now):

I use an ibook, so I'll direct my comments there.
1) 1.4 Ghz Gobi G3 or better
2) 200 Mhz FSB or better
3) 256 installed ram, one slot open. Ideally more of course, but I said realistic.
4) 64 megs VRAM on a Radeon 9000 or better (9600 would be great, but I suspect that will be seen on the PBs, not the ibooks).
5) option for higher resolution on the 14" model.
6) airport extreme.
7) battery life that is 5-6 hours of REAL use, not under some ideal conditions that never happen.
8) Case that doesn't scratch so darn easily.
9) 2nd firewire 400 port would be nice, as would a 3rd usb, but not a big deal.

Ok, I think that's it. I don't care a bit about bluetooth or firewire 800. I also don't want to hear how the G3 is dead, 'cause when you see a 1.4 Ghz or better with a 200 mhz fsb or better, I think you'll see just how alive it can be.

If prices could stay constant with these improvements I would be one extremely happy customer. This is my wishlist; it's what would make a difference to ME. Maybe these features aren't practical for other ibook users, or maybe they want things I don't. Frankly, I don't care. :p Let 'em make their own lists. These are the ibook improvements that I think are possible and that would tempt me to buy another one (not as opposed to switching, as opposed to sticking with my current ibook). How about enough with MorganX's list? How about your lists?

[mbustamante]

If you don't like the mouse three words: Logtech USB mouse. I have one and the 2 buton feture works fine on it.

[Fukui]

I use an ibook, so I'll direct my comments there.
1) 1.4 Ghz Gobi G3 or better
2) 200 Mhz FSB or better
3) 256 installed ram, one slot open. Ideally more of course, but I said realistic.
4) 64 megs VRAM on a Radeon 9000 or better (9600 would be great, but I suspect that will be seen on the PBs, not the ibooks).
5) option for higher resolution on the 14" model.
6) airport extreme.
7) battery life that is 5-6 hours of REAL use, not under some ideal conditions that never happen.

I would add two things, thinner/lighter and...13" widescreen display. I'd pay for just those two additions.

[lmalave]

Originally posted by sparks9
Apple definitely needs to put MORE RAM in the computers by standard. 128 mb don't go long these days. I'm sure ram is the biggest bottleneck in most new Apple computers.

Every reseller throws in from 256MB to 512MB of extra RAM depending on the model. I got my iBook with 384 MB RAM, preinstalled. Not to mention a printer free after rebate.

[lmalave]

Originally posted by QCassidy352
Ok, the MorganX said what he wanted, and this degenerated in to a debate about his wishlist. But he also asked others to put what they wanted, so I'm not saying another word about MorganX's wish list. Here's what *I'd* (realistically) like by mid 2004 from apple (I'd hope a little more by the end of the year, so I'm thinking a year or a little more from right now):

I use an ibook, so I'll direct my comments there.
1) 1.4 Ghz Gobi G3 or better
2) 200 Mhz FSB or better
3) 256 installed ram, one slot open. Ideally more of course, but I said realistic.
4) 64 megs VRAM on a Radeon 9000 or better (9600 would be great, but I suspect that will be seen on the PBs, not the ibooks).
5) option for higher resolution on the 14" model.
6) airport extreme.
7) battery life that is 5-6 hours of REAL use, not under some ideal conditions that never happen.
8) Case that doesn't scratch so darn easily.
9) 2nd firewire 400 port would be nice, as would a 3rd usb, but not a big deal.

Ok, I think that's it. I don't care a bit about bluetooth or firewire 800. I also don't want to hear how the G3 is dead, 'cause when you see a 1.4 Ghz or better with a 200 mhz fsb or better, I think you'll see just how alive it can be.

If prices could stay constant with these improvements I would be one extremely happy customer. This is my wishlist; it's what would make a difference to ME. Maybe these features aren't practical for other ibook users, or maybe they want things I don't. Frankly, I don't care. :p Let 'em make their own lists. These are the ibook improvements that I think are possible and that would tempt me to buy another one (not as opposed to switching, as opposed to sticking with my current ibook). How about enough with MorganX's list? How about your lists?

Once again, I think this is very doable by the end of next year. 1 and a half years is a long time in the computer industry, even by Apple's slowed-down standards. I think the release of the 970 will usher in an era of rapid change. The 1.4 GHz Gobi and 200MHz FSB are definitely possible. The video card is definitely possible (after all, the Radeon 7500 32MB was considered a high-end desktop card just a year and a half before I got my iBook). Battery life will definitely be increased - that's an area of a lot of innovation right now.

My wishlist would look like ours except I do want Bluetooth. Once quality Bluetooth stereo headphones become a reality, I want to be able to use them with my iBook.

C'mon people, have some faith! I think most of the stuff on these wishlists are quite reasonable within a year and a half timeframe.

[NavyIntel007]

First off Vnoiw and Morgan...

A sony desktop most likely is NOT processor upgradable. The OEMs design their motherboards to restrict this activity so that you'll go out and buy a new machine.

The iMac should only be compared to the all-in-one systems offered by Gateway and Sony. They should not be compared to machines that are capable of being upgraded. If you want upgradable macs you get the powermac, that's just the game plan. Although I would love to see a PCMCIA card slot on the iMac/eMac because it would have some limited expansion but not for those not comfortable opening the hood.

With that said...
Processor upgradable... NO, not the point.
970.... possibly
More Ram... possibly
bigger HD... for sure
Faster superdrive... likely
19" display... doubtful
FW800... Maybe, it's not even on all the pbooks yet...
Bluetooth... a very good chance

Ever since I got my own computer I was looking for some way not to use windows. I found it with the mac and I'm happy with it because although it's not the fastest machine on earth, it's fast enough and it works. People who are ultra picky and need to upgrade and have max performance are a nich crowd. Even the PC OEMs don't really service this crowd other than Alienware. For the most part if you want super fast and ultra upgradable you have to build your own.

[janey]

morgan, i understand what you're trying to say, however Apple will never do all that. It's totally unrealistic compared to everything that Apple has done in the past few years. If you like the Mac so much but think that Apple is very uncompetitive, why don't you just use a Mac and a PC at the same time? I like what Apple has to offer in the Power Macs and I like to build my own custom PC's. Get the best of two worlds Morgan and stop bitching about Apple.

[vniow]

Originally posted by bertagert
vniow,

First:
I hope that "thing" you created isn't your baby. YIKES!!!

Hee hee...

Second:
I think everyone needs to understand something. The imac and ibook are not computers that people will be upgrading.

The iBook I can understand, people pay a premium for portability when they want a notebook so upgrade options are limited in this arena (although the Pismos are pretty upgradeable as far as notebooks go so it doesn't have to be that way..) but the iMac is a desktop and people are already paying a premium for it and that's for the software suite appatently, the hardware is way behind compared to similar PCs at similar (or even cheaper) prices...
But the difference between the iMacs and comparable PCs is even if the PC comes with not-too-up-to-date hardware its as simple as adding a card or whatever, not too difficult, even the owner's manuals tell you how to do a lot of the upgrades so if you've ever used a screwdriver before, chances are you can upgrade the computer.

Even if they were, people still wouldn't do it. Why? Because the people that buy them have no inkling to do so. Yes, there are a few who have purchased it that may want a new hard drive in the next couple years but, in the numbers game, I bet 95 - 98% of people buying these systems have no desire to upgrade except for buying a new system when the time comes. So, as Apple Computer, why would you put resources into developing something that only 2 - 5% of the people want?

You'd be suprised how many people use the extra PCI slots in PCs, I don't know a simple PC owner that hasn't already used at least one or will sometime in the future, mostly they do it to get the latest goodies (like Firewire for example) that didn't come with it by default and if they don't install it themselves, they'll have the local computer geek do it for them (there's one in every town)
But most of the upgrades come when the computer is getting out of date or parts that are not under warranty fail or something but at least they don't have to spend another $1800 or so on a brand new computer yet!

As for your parents Sony. I'll bet the only time that thing gets upgraded, if at all, will be performed by you. Your parents aren't going to do it. This is exactly who the imac/ibook are targeted too.

Actually my dad will likely do any upgrades to it when the time comes (he is the Cisco engineer after all) and my sister is starting to learn a little about computers so maybe she'll do something to it in the future, I dunno..

If you want the ability to upgrade, you should be looking at the powermac. If you like the imac for looks and what ever, I understand why you wouldn't want the powerbook. If its for $$, then you're out of luck. But what are your alternatives? Gateway Profile?

The Powermac, are you kidding?
For the same price as the 1Ghz Powermac the Sony came with a DVD+/-RW drive, twice the RAM, 20GB bigger hard drive, 2.4Ghz PIV w/533Mhz bus and a TV tuner/AV input card.
Granted the software bundle is horrible but the hardware is pretty good, I realy like the case, you just pop off one of the side panels and there's all the insides, no screws to mess around with or anything and all the components are well organized.
The iMac we configured was too expensive but the eMac was priced just right, but it also had much inferior hardware plus an included display which was redundant since we already had a 17" monitor so that (and some other reasons, upgradeability certainly didn't hurt) we went for the Sony instead of a Mac of any type.

Or, another way to look at it, you can upgrade the imac. New hardrive,

Voids warranty.

go get one and put it in or get an external.

External ones are about $80-100 more expensive on the average, if you want USB along with Firewire for your external its going to be on the higher side...

More ram, go get the biggest one you can stick in there. Its not sold as a power machine so having tons of ram will never be an option nor should it be. Graphics card, I'm not sure so I won't comment. There you go, computer upgraded.

Thats all for this week :)

Graphics card is soldred onto the logic board, I've seen the motherboard by itself (in a service manual) and the graphics card was integrated with the logic board.
And what about an optical drive?
If I want to use iDVD, I have to take it apart (voiding the warranty like I would if I were to replace the hard drive) which is not an easy procedure from what I've seen in the service manuals, replace the drive and put it back together again, hoping I don't lose any of the little screws..
I could buy an external one which would probably more more expensive but definately more convienent but wait, iDVD doesn't work with external drives http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=251202 so I either have to buy a new computer with a Superdrive installed or do it myself...
And I'm not talking about all the other things that you're stuck with too like FW 400 and 802.11g for example, no chance of adding those to a brand new iMac...

Anyhoo, the point I'm trying to make here is the lack of upgradeability in the so-called consumer line is a turn off for a lot of PC users who are intrested in the Mac but don't want to pay too much for a tower and like the option (even if they never touch the inside) to upgrade their PCs if they so wish, and I believe if Apple either added more upgradeability to the i/eMac or introduced something similar to a Shuttle cube, they would bring in a more varied userbase that the typical tweakaphobic cost conscious consumer, the Cube hit a nerve with a lot of users because of its innovative design and upgradeability options but the price tag was a major turnoff, the Shuttle cubes expanded on the small form factor idea that Apple first set foot in and improved on it in a number of ways, a full size AGP and PCI slot are the biggest ones.

And they're being quite sucessful at it I may add.http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=251585

[tazo]

i can honestly say that I disagree with every part of the first person's post. besides the mac-needs-more-initial-memory thing, i didnt agree with any of his ideas.

[Snowy_River]

Boy, quite a heated debate.

I, like many others, didn't like some of the tone of the first message. The 'Letter'. What I didn't like about it was the tone of ultimatum. Especially in certain areas. Now, I'm glad to have seen that Morgan backed off from some of the 'requirements' in those areas that troubled me the most (i.e. input devices).

I guess that there's a degree to which I think that the Pro/Con-sumer distinction actually makes sense. It helps Apple more than it hurts them. So, I really believe that it will be here for the time being.

I also expect that Apple will stand by the position that consumer machines don't need that much upgradeability. And, if you're worried about computer life-span, Apple is certainly a good choice. My parents currently have an original Rev. A iMac, which will be 5 years old in August, and it's still going strong.

Apple took a shot at a small form factor Pro level machine, and it was a total bomb. There were, I know, a number of reasons for that.

I know it's been said, and rejected (though I'm not clear as to why), if you want flexibility and upgradeability, then you want a Pro level machine, and that's the Power Mac.

[Snowy_River]

Originally posted by matthew24
... (Windows keyboard shortcuts handling is quicker/ more clear)...

Uh, I'll have to disagree with this one. I'll make one simple example as a case-in-point:

To make the degree symbol:

Windows: Type Alt & 0176

Macintosh: Type Option-Shift-8

Which do you think is quicker and more clear?

[macdong]

If they haven't gone under in 2K4, i'll stay with them :D

[Dont Hurt Me]

Mac is the best platform, it just doesnt have the best cpu. It really is a shame that there will be people with brand new 1 gigers that will not to be able to run doom3. This is sad in my opinion, you drop $1500-over 2 grand and the machine is slower then a $1000 or less new Pc with a P4 at 2.4 ghz. These are the facts! we love our macs but do not love motorola! This is why sales continue to drop for the powermacs. You pay a fortune it should act like it. Not get its but kicked all the time by machines that cost 2/3 the price or less.

[ac2102]

Ok, first thing i would like to echo patrick0briens comendation of this thread in that it has received an extroadinary number of posts in an incredibly short space of time!

However, i would like to also like to ask MoganX whether he/she put forward this thread as a serious discussion or whether or not he simply wanted to rile as many Mac devotees as possible!

Having said this, i do agree with some of the points that were made, but i beleive these will become part of Apple's line up as a natural progression.

I am also aware that MorganX has not checked this post in some time!

Oh, and what was the point at taking a dig at S teve J obs?

ac2102