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DavidLeblond
Jan 5, 2007, 06:32 AM
Have you guys seen Thinksecret (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0701iwork.html) this morning? They have a supposed pic of the iWork spreadsheet application.



adrianblaine
Jan 5, 2007, 06:34 AM
Have you guys seen Thinksecret (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0701iwork.html) this morning? They have a supposed pic of the iWork spreadsheet application.

It looks a lot like a photoshopped version of Pages... But I would imagine that is what it will look like anyway :)

Father Jack
Jan 5, 2007, 06:36 AM
It looks a lot like an altered version of Pages... But I would imagine that is what it will look like anyway :)

Yeah, they would want continuity.



FJ

DavidLeblond
Jan 5, 2007, 06:37 AM
It looks a lot like a photoshopped version of Pages... But I would imagine that is what it will look like anyway :)

Yeah, it sure enough doesn't look like an Excel killer... not sure I like that icon either.

MacRumors
Jan 5, 2007, 06:39 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

ThinkSecret reports (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0701iwork.html) that iWork '07 will launch next week at Macworld and is expected as "one of the company's more significant product launches of the year".

The new version of Apple's productivity suite offers a long expected spreadsheet component that has been previously described (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/10/20061011213410.shtml).

Sources have also passed along additional notes regarding features in Lasso, including many that will transcend all iWork applications, such as conditional formatting in spreadsheets, enabling images to be treated as content in table cells, and an iPhoto-like "heads-up display" interface offering image editing options.

Thinksecret has posted a development screenshots of the application icon and application itself. They warn that the final shipping versions may differ slightly.

Amazon has posted placeholders (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2007/01/20070105002709.shtml) for the expected iLife '07 and iWork '07 updates on their site.

mkrishnan
Jan 5, 2007, 06:39 AM
Yeah, it sure enough doesn't look like an Excel killer... not sure I like that icon either.

Yeah... I do hope they do something more clever.... :(

Compile 'em all
Jan 5, 2007, 06:43 AM
Have you guys seen Thinksecret (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0701iwork.html) this morning? They have a supposed pic of the iWork spreadsheet application.
Looks so.....basic.

ColdFlame87
Jan 5, 2007, 06:48 AM
those links at amazon arent working anymore...

danman
Jan 5, 2007, 06:50 AM
like a fake to me.

millar876
Jan 5, 2007, 06:51 AM
well only have to wait til monday to see if its right or not

Macnoviz
Jan 5, 2007, 06:54 AM
it's a fair assumption, even if the screenshot is fake

after all they do want iWork to eventually replace Office

adrianblaine
Jan 5, 2007, 06:57 AM
it's a fair assumption, even if the screenshot is fake

after all they do want iWork to eventually replace Office

That's because they know MS will stop making Office for Mac after this next version.

BoyBach
Jan 5, 2007, 07:01 AM
Finally some kind of a 'leak' about a future product. :D

lorien
Jan 5, 2007, 07:04 AM
It looks terrible. I wouldn't trash Excel for this!

cecildk9999
Jan 5, 2007, 07:12 AM
That's because they know MS will stop making Office for Mac after this next version.

I've heard this, too; how definite do people think this is? iWork looks alright to me, but I'm still chugging along with office 2003 on my mac (and don't see much need to change). I'm just wondering if discontinuing a mac version of office will hurt mac sales down the road.

BornAgainMac
Jan 5, 2007, 07:16 AM
I bet this image won't be the selected image on Apple.com when iLife '07 is finally showcased.

adrianblaine
Jan 5, 2007, 07:17 AM
I've heard this, too; how definite do people think this is? iWork looks alright to me, but I'm still chugging along with office 2003 on my mac (and don't see much need to change). I'm just wondering if discontinuing a mac version of office will hurt mac sales down the road.

I'm pretty sure it will happen. Messenger for Mac is crappy and they have discontinued Media Player and Explorer. Office is the last and final step and in order for people to want a Mac, there needs to be an alternative. I've been using iWork since it came out and it seems to be working fine. I love Keynote much better than PowerPoint. They are using this time between now and when Office is discontinued to polish it up.

Chef Medeski
Jan 5, 2007, 07:21 AM
I've heard this, too; how definite do people think this is? iWork looks alright to me, but I'm still chugging along with office 2003 on my mac (and don't see much need to change). I'm just wondering if discontinuing a mac version of office will hurt mac sales down the road.

Ehh.. by the time that is. Office 13. Which is maybe 5 years off. Think of how well developed iWork will become. The key is that Office 2007 is still going to be on mac which is neccessary since iWork is not a satisfactory replacement.

And as for compatibility, with XML format, iWork will have even creater ability for interoperability.

Right now iWork is a joke even compared to NeoOffice. But its perfect timing. Apple needed a place to test out their apps before just releasing them years in advance (word processing isnt as simple as it seems). Now they aren't catering to word processing to make it non-threathening. But wait... slowly they are coming too as they aren't too much worried about MS dropping support early, which WOULD BE BAD.

No worries.

wordmunger
Jan 5, 2007, 07:27 AM
It needs to have a better graphing function than what's available in pages / keynote to get me to switch over.

Also, *please* allow users to edit / save in MS office format, instead of having to import and export all the time. Some of us still have to work with people who use Office.

Roy
Jan 5, 2007, 07:29 AM
I have never understood why Apple discontinued any upgrading of Appleworks/Clarisworks and I've never seen any one give any explanation for why Apple ceased upgrading Appleworks and is letting it "die on the vine". Anyone have any explanation for Apple's behavior?:confused:

ero87
Jan 5, 2007, 07:29 AM
right now, the whole iWork suite looks like a toy to me. anyone agree? I still prefer Microsoft Office, in terms of usability and looks (maybe it's just what I'm used to?).

I want to love iWork, I hope the '07 version convinces me enough to buy it!

xUKHCx
Jan 5, 2007, 07:33 AM
I have been waiting evr since iWork was first released for something like this, and i am afraid to say i will continue to wait if this is indeed what the iWork equivilant of Excel is.

It is far to basic, i do not use any where near all the features of Excel, just tables, graphs, macros (from time to time), and a few other features. I need to be able to produce nice looking graphs, tables and have perfect interaction between the iWork applications.

If this application does have these features Pages still needs a massive update to make it more usable for scientific papers.

Keynote is almost perfect. Just need a better way of getting them to play on windows computers. Export to quicktime is alright and export to powerpoint is dreadful (i know this is a limitation with powerpoint really)

slidingjon
Jan 5, 2007, 07:35 AM
I'm in school right now and use iWork '06 for all my assignments, but I'm not convinced it's a full-on Office replacement yet. The GUI is pretty, but that is default since it comes out of Cupertino. Office still has superior functionality in my book. I am one of those that refuses to have Microsoft products on my computer.

adrianblaine
Jan 5, 2007, 07:36 AM
right now, the whole iWork suite looks like a toy to me. anyone agree? I still prefer Microsoft Office, in terms of usability and looks (maybe it's just what I'm used to?).

I want to love iWork, I hope the '07 version convinces me enough to buy it!

I agree with you on Pages, but I personally like the Keynote interface. For some reason it "feels" better than Pages even though they are very similar. I don't care for the inspector so much. It is an odd way to get to those options. Office just has the toolbar at the top with most of the same stuff. But we all know Apple doesn't like doing Apps like that...


Keynote is almost perfect. Just need a better way of getting them to play on windows computers. Export to quicktime is alright and export to powerpoint is dreadful (i know this is a limitation with powerpoint really)

I use Keynote a lot and by itself is worth getting iWork. I just hope the next Keynote has motion paths, it is the most obvious thing missing that PowerPoint has.

animefan_1
Jan 5, 2007, 07:36 AM
I have never understood why Apple discontinued any upgrading of Appleworks/Clarisworks and I've never seen any one give any explanation for why Apple ceased upgrading Appleworks and is letting it "die on the vine". Anyone have any explanation for Apple's behavior?:confused:

iWork is the replacement for AppleWorks. It's not there yet, but hopefully '07 will be.

cwoloszynski
Jan 5, 2007, 07:37 AM
right now, the whole iWork suite looks like a toy to me. anyone agree? I still prefer Microsoft Office, in terms of usability and looks (maybe it's just what I'm used to?).

I want to love iWork, I hope the '07 version convinces me enough to buy it!

I use iWork as an Office replacement (and have been for about one year). When the feature you want is in iWork, it works *much* better than in Office. The biggest issue is missing features.

For a corporate environment, the biggest issue I have is the lack of change tracking/compare document. Everything else is sweet. I really like the ability to add tables in Pages with equations. If I could cross-reference a value from one table to another within Pages, I don't think I'd need Excel.

If Apple could knock off those two items, I will be very happy next week.

BenRoethig
Jan 5, 2007, 07:41 AM
Yeah, it sure enough doesn't look like an Excel killer... not sure I like that icon either.

It's not supposed to be an excel killer. It's a consumer suite for God's sake. It's designed for families, not business. Personally, I think the crowd who looks to iWork to unseat Office a) hates anything non-Apple and B) is completely ignorant of offices high end capabilities and importance in a professional environment. Believe me, those college reports just scratch the surface of what Word can do. Those could be done as effectively with works on the PC side.

cube
Jan 5, 2007, 07:41 AM
But what are the improvements to Pages? It's not obvious it is worth to upgrade.

Digitalclips
Jan 5, 2007, 07:42 AM
I still have four Mac Plus disks called Plan, Chart, Word and File (names are self explanatory I think). A set if applications that under contract from and on behalf of Apple, Microsoft developed. All Steve Jobs' concept, the set making up an 'Office Suite'. Ironic that till then Microsoft's (if memory serves me correctly - please feel free to jump in) best effort was a knock of of Gary Kildall's, of Digital Research Inc's, CP/M aka DOS that Gates bought for $50K (and not from Digital Research Inc. either!) and then foisted on IBM.

After creating these applications for the Mac, Microsoft had their first real applications and the rest is history. I only wish Apple had simply made them in house and secured all copy-writes and patents as best they could. All due reverence to Visicorps, I also have a copy if Visicalc somewhere, the first spreadsheet I saw on a micro.

Not to mention the suite of apps for the Lisa. Personally I have long wondered why Apple let the Office Suite concept be stolen so easily when they had such a demonstrable lead in this field over Microsoft and great product names ... like Word for example!:confused:

hob
Jan 5, 2007, 07:43 AM
iWork to me is fundamentally flawed.

Pages is based on keynote, as is Lasso (or so it looks like). Keynote is not the most logical program I have ever seen. I like it, I like what effects it can produce and the presentations look great, but the whole "inspector" thing just seems really clunky to me...

I wish Pages was a decent alternative to MS Word as opposed to MS Publisher...

mark88
Jan 5, 2007, 07:47 AM
That icon is so ugly, not Apple style at all.

Also, it seems odd that this new app would retain the old style aqua toolbar, surely pages and keynote will be updated to use a unified toolbar for iLife 07?

Reach
Jan 5, 2007, 07:52 AM
I don't like Pages either, but that's because it tries to do what I use InDesign and Word for. Pages does have it's target market though, as I have learned from how many newsletters etc I see that completely design-illiterate people are making in Pages, and they actually look ok. I think that's more what they're aiming at, and if so they seem to have hit in my opinion.
As I said, it doesn nothing for me though.

ziwi
Jan 5, 2007, 07:52 AM
Excel will probably not have to worry about this, but perhaps the suite of products is not meant to be 'professional' grade. Maybe, this suite is just to deliver the minimal things that a user needs to get things done and not run business from. For the price - it would be consumer grade tools - so it is unfair to compare to the likes of excel.

running
Jan 5, 2007, 07:52 AM
I don't know why you don't, but i do like it ... yes, it looks simply, but Pages and Keynote look simply too

BenRoethig
Jan 5, 2007, 07:57 AM
But what are the improvements to Pages? It's not obvious it is worth to upgrade.

Hopefully we'll see an option to quick change between page layout and traditional word processing layouts.

failsafe1
Jan 5, 2007, 08:00 AM
If this is true (skeptical) then perhaps this is one more small step to be MS free is 07? If this offers true functionality than I am all for it.

lonepilgrim
Jan 5, 2007, 08:09 AM
Excel will probably not have to worry about this, but perhaps the suite of products is not meant to be 'professional' grade. Maybe, this suite is just to deliver the minimal things that a user needs to get things done and not run business from. For the price - it would be consumer grade tools - so it is unfair to compare to the likes of excel.
Long may Apple not go after the business market.

Xyl
Jan 5, 2007, 08:19 AM
That's because they know MS will stop making Office for Mac after this next version.

Most possibly...
If you look at one of the events last year (MWSF or WWDC), Roz Ho said that they had signed a contract with Apple for developing/supporting Office for Mac for the next five years, which would mean until 2011.

Macula
Jan 5, 2007, 08:31 AM
right now, the whole iWork suite looks like a toy to me. anyone agree? I still prefer Microsoft Office, in terms of usability and looks (maybe it's just what I'm used to?).


Do you ever work with image-intensive documents? Pages is incomparably better than Word in that respect. Its behavior is much more rational (though still not perfectly rational), and my productivity with it is much higher.

Buschmaster
Jan 5, 2007, 08:31 AM
Wow, that really doesn't look like an icon Apple designed. Think about how weird it would look in your dock...

Warbrain
Jan 5, 2007, 08:33 AM
Yea, I looked at that picture and I wasn't impressed...I doubt I'll upgrade to the new version unless there's something amazing in it...

bryanc
Jan 5, 2007, 08:33 AM
I think there's a very complex dynamic going on here.

MS Office is the de-facto standard, and nothing is going to displace it in the corporate environment in the foreseeable future. However, Office is also a train-wreck from a software POV, partly due to it's age and Microsoft's laudable policy of not breaking backwards compatibility while adding increased complexity.

Everyone talks about how feature-encrusted Office is, and how they'd like a leaner, simpler system that just did what was necessary, but what's necessary is different for every user.

I think what Apple is trying to do with iWork is provide software that superficially looks like it is serving the non-corporate, non-pro users who don't need, and don't want to pay for MSOffice (with the exception of Keynote, which not only competes directly with PowerPoint, it makes PowerPoint look like utter crap). But iWork is also filling a bigger and more important role.

Apple knows that Microsoft's MacBU is going to get the chop. Office 2007 will be the last version of Office for OS X, and it's crippleware to start with (without VB support, it's a complete non-starter for many corporate clients). Microsoft will be telling their Mac-using clients to buy the Windows version and run it under Parallels.

So Apple needs to be able to provide an alternative to Office, without appearing to have driven MS from the platform by competing with their cash-cow.

What I expect to see is iWork continuing to develop modestly, filling the role of office applications for those who don't need the complete feature-set of MS Office (again, with the exception of Keynote, which I see as the flagship app of the suite) until MS announces the end of MacOffice development. At that point, I expect a major iWork upgrade, bringing the apps to near feature-parity with their MSOffice counterparts, and, most importantly, with 100% file sharing capability (which will be possible as MSOffice has been forced to use open standards for their file formats by the EU).

There will still be many shops that rely on VB automation that will be unable to use anything but MSOffice, and Apple simply won't compete in that market. However, iWork will be a viable option everywhere else, and I expect to see some significant improvements in the automation of iWork now that OS X development is starting to slow down.

The bottom line is that for the past couple of decades, Microsoft has had a knife to Apple's throat in the form of Office. Killing Office for Mac would effectively killed Apple. Now that Apple has got it's feet back under it, developing an alternative to MSOffice has to be a high priority as a counter to that long-feared move on Microsoft's part.

What I'd love to see is a version of iWork that people would be eager to use instead of Office available *before* MS kills Office development, but I don't think that's likely to happen.

Cheers

gavd
Jan 5, 2007, 08:34 AM
Excel will probably not have to worry about this, but perhaps the suite of products is not meant to be 'professional' grade. Maybe, this suite is just to deliver the minimal things that a user needs to get things done and not run business from. For the price - it would be consumer grade tools - so it is unfair to compare to the likes of excel.

Agreed - I think iWorks is really aimed at home users who like to do the odd newsletter, monthly budgets etc. After all, the suite is considerably cheaper than MS Office (excluding edu dicounts etc).

wiswis
Jan 5, 2007, 08:35 AM
Very ugly.....I hope its fake.

m-dogg
Jan 5, 2007, 08:37 AM
What an ugly icon! I doubt that's what it would actually look like.

I hope they don't include anything like years in the real icon though - I hate that the iCal icon has that default date in the icon when the app isn't running.

Macula
Jan 5, 2007, 08:38 AM
BTW, am I the only one who needs a word processor that will allow a user to simply click on any point on the page and type text freely, without having to worry about anchored objects, text boxes, etc.?

I need a word processor that will mimic the behavior of good old pen and paper for Christ's sake!


(Note: Neither Word nor Pages are even close to achieving this simplicity and intuitiveness)

xUKHCx
Jan 5, 2007, 08:38 AM
@bryanc

I hope you are true and like you hope it comes out sooner rather than later.

a456
Jan 5, 2007, 08:38 AM
That's because they know MS will stop making Office for Mac after this next version.

They'll stop making OSes too.

peharri
Jan 5, 2007, 08:41 AM
Looks so.....basic.

I would hope so. Excel is positively scary looking.

I like the screenshot, it looks like they're aiming for the Lotus Improv view of making spreadsheets more freeform and less based upon numbered rows and columns.

This could be a winner.

a456
Jan 5, 2007, 08:41 AM
One of the comments for the article points out that this is a screenshot of another program called Mesa: http://www.plsys.co.uk/mesa.htm

Goldfinger
Jan 5, 2007, 08:43 AM
If it's true that MS plans to kill Office after 2011 (any evidence on this ? links ?) then Apple better have a 100% compatible Office suite with exactly the same features as MS Office.
Everybody requires you to have MS Office. Studens, small businesses and even a lot of home users will dump macs in droves when there is no MS Office option.

Parallels and boot camp are NOT viable options.

jsnoah
Jan 5, 2007, 08:44 AM
If this is true and a spreadsheet app is coming next week, does this mean it will open all the same files that excel would? Pages opens .doc and Keynote opens .pps(or whatever the extension is) so "Lasso" should open .xls right? f so what is keeing me from getting rid of MS Office? Anyone? Anyone?

clevin
Jan 5, 2007, 08:54 AM
If this is true and a spreadsheet app is coming next week, does this mean it will open all the same files that excel would? Pages opens .doc and Keynote opens .pps(or whatever the extension is) so "Lasso" should open .xls right? f so what is keeing me from getting rid of MS Office? Anyone? Anyone?

have to wait to see. and I highly doubt it, especially the excel files with diagrams and plots.

misr12
Jan 5, 2007, 08:55 AM
Everyone,

Opinions are like noses and we all have one but come on. In regards to the anticipated iWork 7 release I think there are so many comments that are drawing conclusions from one screen shot of iWork 07 spreadsheet.

I think Apple has made things simplier by removing so many itimidating icons in their approach to productivity software. In contrast, yes, I am referring to Excel. I use it and will not stop using it until I find another alternative but I have swithced over to Pages from MS word becuase it feels less clutterd, snappier and easier to me. I understand why there are so comments on iWork (Sheets?) 07 but do not let our conditioned pavlov like response from many years of using excel draw to many conclusions. Let's see what apple has to offer next week.

clevin
Jan 5, 2007, 09:02 AM
Everyone,

Opinions are like noses and we all have one but come on. In regards to the anticipated iWork 7 release I think there are so many comments that are drawing conclusions from one screen shot of iWork 07 spreadsheet.

I think Apple has made things simplier by removing so many itimidating icons in their approach to productivity software. In contrast, yes, I am referring to Excel. I use it and will not stop using it until I find another alternative but I have swithced over to Pages from MS word becuase it feels less clutterd, snappier and easier to me. I understand why there are so comments on iWork (Sheets?) 07 but do not let our conditioned pavlov like response from many years of using excel draw to many conclusions. Let's see what apple has to offer next week.

its just that excel is obviously more functional than all other office suites i can think of in this market now, and its hard to think apple can do better than other suites.

about how it looks and feel, it might be important for some ppl who use them for personal environment, but if u gonna use it across the platform or to submit file to any professional publications. iWork just can do it.

longofest
Jan 5, 2007, 09:03 AM
Yeah, it sure enough doesn't look like an Excel killer... not sure I like that icon either.

None of the iWork apps are supposed to be MSOffice "killers". Pages, for instance, can't do half of what Word can, and neither can Keynote (although it does what it does very well, and one could say it does it much better than PowerPoint).

iWork is more of a consumer-level suite in my mind, but very well done. It doesn't have all the bells and whistles that Office has, but many folks won't need them. However, on the other hand, many of us will need them (for instance, I'm sure Lasso won't have any kind of Pivot Table functionality, which is something that myself and other corporate users use daily. Thats just one example).

~Shard~
Jan 5, 2007, 09:04 AM
I feel that Excel is the strongest of the MS Office apps, so it will be interesting to see how this new iWork app turns out. On one hand, it would need to be pretty powerful and slick to make me want to give up Excel - then again, I am a bit of a power-user of Excel. On the other hand, Apple is all about simplicity, and perhaps they will be targeting "light" users who will find the basic features and ease-of-use more appealing and less intimidating than Excel. I guess we'll have to see...

Machead III
Jan 5, 2007, 09:04 AM
I hope that screenshot is fake, just because I absolutely DETEST pinstripes... and it's unlikely Apple will stick with that most distracting and unpleasant of UI features for such an important app.

I certainly do hope iWork will be "one of the more significant product launches of the year", simply because that kind of language warrants a Word-killer, and a Word-killer is perhaps the single best bet Apple has toward increasing market share outside of "halo effects".

adrianblaine
Jan 5, 2007, 09:06 AM
Everyone,

Opinions are like noses and we all have one but come on. In regards to the anticipated iWork 7 release I think there are so many comments that are drawing conclusions from one screen shot of iWork 07 spreadsheet.


Not to be nitpicky, but isn't this the point of MacRumors? I am personally glad we are discussing iWork and the speculation surrounding it. We should be concerned with the future of iWork if/when MS does stop making Office for Mac.

Xyl
Jan 5, 2007, 09:07 AM
If it's true that MS plans to kill Office after 2011 (any evidence on this ? links ?) then Apple better have a 100% compatible Office suite with exactly the same features as MS Office.
Everybody requires you to have MS Office. Studens, small businesses and even a lot of home users will dump macs in droves when there is no MS Office option.

Parallels and boot camp are NOT viable options.

We don't know if MS plans to kill Office for Mac after 2011, that's just when their contract with Apple ends, it could always be renewed (but who knows). If you want to see Roz Ho saying that their contract with Apple has been extended for an extra five years, go to http://www.apple.com/quicktime/guide/appleevents/ and watch MWSF 2006 or WWDC 2006 (I watched both a few days ago, and forgot which one she spoke at).

~Shard~
Jan 5, 2007, 09:07 AM
Regarding Office for Mac itself, I see one more update to the suite from MS and that's it, but I could be wrong (I know people have mentioned the 2011 date, but I have my doubts...)

Regardless, Apple will need to address this issue so I think that adding this spreadsheet app is a good idea regardless. As iWork matures and Office for Mac goes away, hopefully there won't be any significant gaps from a user persepctive. Perhaps Pages and this spreadsheet app will not be Word and Excel killers respectively initially, however either they might morph into them over time, or simply carve out their niche as "different" and gradually people will adopt them as different and presumably more appealing ways to do their work. Perhaps it will even be a bit of a paradigm shift (although this is admittedly very optimistic and unrealistic! ;) :D)

sushi
Jan 5, 2007, 09:10 AM
I feel that Excel is the strongest of the MS Office apps, so it will be interesting to see how this new iWork app turns out. On one hand, it would need to be pretty powerful and slick to make me want to give up Excel - then again, I am a bit of a power-user of Excel. On the other hand, Apple is all about simplicity, and perhaps they will be targeting "light" users who will find the basic features and ease-of-use more appealing and less intimidating than Excel. I guess we'll have to see...
Agree with you about Excel.

Apple, or anybody else for that matter, tries to compete they will need a completely compatible version with Excel.

Sometimes I wonder if an upstart could surpass Microsoft, Apple and others in an office suite. For example, could some new energetic company make an office suite:

- with word processing, spreadsheet and presentation applications that could run on Windows, Mac, and Linux platforms.

- that would be 100% compatible across these platforms.

It would be nice to see!

2ndPath
Jan 5, 2007, 09:11 AM
I'm pretty sure it will happen. Messenger for Mac is crappy and they have discontinued Media Player and Explorer. Office is the last and final step and in order for people to want a Mac, there needs to be an alternative. I've been using iWork since it came out and it seems to be working fine. I love Keynote much better than PowerPoint. They are using this time between now and when Office is discontinued to polish it up.

Contrary to Messenger, Media Player and Explorer Microsoft is supposedly earning money with Office. Also for many purposes there is not really a competing software available yet for MS Office on the Mac. But things might also be changing here. Keynote might already be comparable or even better than Powerpoint. For the other iWork applications it remains to be seen how good and what their focus will be. Right now pages is more of a simple layout program than a true text processor. But Apple might also add another program for word processing. And we don't know yet, what the spread sheet application in iWork will be like. Aside from iWork there might also be other software available in the future like the Mac port of Openoffice for example.

Microsoft will probably still sell Office for the next couple of years (didn't the make a statement at last years Macworld about supporting the Mac for the next 5 years? But this might mean releasing one more version and not releasing the version after that any more, which might be due in about 4 years.). After this time a very good alternative needs to be available or it might really hurt Apples market share.

BenRoethig
Jan 5, 2007, 09:13 AM
If this is true (skeptical) then perhaps this is one more small step to be MS free is 07? If this offers true functionality than I am all for it.

If it's existence isn't true, Apple has dropped a ball of epic proportions. It'll also mean they've dropped more traditional computer users in favor of completely catering towards the creative crowd.

sushi
Jan 5, 2007, 09:14 AM
Microsoft will probably still sell Office for the next couple of years (didn't the make a statement at last years Macworld about supporting the Mac for the next 5 years? But this might mean releasing one more version and not releasing the version after that any more, which might be due in about 4 years.). After this time a very good alternative needs to be available or it might really hurt Apples market share.
I believe that as long as MSFT Office for the Mac is profitable for Microsoft, they will continue to make it. I don't see this happening any time soon since so many depend on office to have compatibility.

2ndPath
Jan 5, 2007, 09:20 AM
I believe that as long as MSFT Office for the Mac is profitable for Microsoft, they will continue to make it. I don't see this happening any time soon since so many depend on office to have compatibility.

That's what I think too. If they would kill Office when it is profitable, then only to kill or hurt the Mac platform. I don't think that's in their interest.

oldMac
Jan 5, 2007, 09:29 AM
its just that excel is obviously more functional than all other office suites i can think of in this market now, and its hard to think apple can do better than other suites.

I think the key is that Apple can't do better than the other suites "overnight". MS Office was developed over 15 years with lots and lots of intensive effort and resources.

In my view, iWork has always been a long-term hedge. Apple hopes that MS will continue to develop Office for the Mac, because the world basically runs on Office. But Apple needs to have a solid foundation and active development effort in this area to protect against a future possibility where MS stops making Mac Office, or worse, makes it functionality incompatible with Windows Office.

So long as the Mac market is growing, MS should continue to make more money on Mac Office, so it's unlikely that they would pull the plug on a profitable product with a growing user base. This bodes well for the "status quo", where Office for Mac and Windows are basically compatible, with the Mac version a bit behind on the latest features.

However, if Microsoft should ever feel threatened by the Mac platform, they know that they can largely shut Apple out of the business market by stopping or altering Mac Office development. This is why Apple needs a hedge for that scenario.

Another scenario is that Microsoft would curtail the functionality of the Mac version to make it slightly incompatible or crippled. Essentially, a poison-pill to hurt the Mac's compatibility reputation at a critical time when they're gaining traction in the business market. This might be done under the guise of using open standards-based file formats or some type of "imperfect translation".

More likely, Microsoft will keep the price of Mac Office higher than the Windows version (through bulk licensing, bundling oem, etc.) and use that pricing disparity to shift the business "Total Desktop Cost" in favor of Windows.

Finally, there's the scenario where MS keeps making more money on Mac Office, keeps making it better, lowers the price to increase sales volume and everybody wins.

MacVault
Jan 5, 2007, 09:31 AM
Yuck! It looks very UGLY and featureless. Oh, and can't Apple come up with a better name than iWork? I've always thought that is the dumbest name and I hope they change it soon.

bob_hearn
Jan 5, 2007, 09:31 AM
I have never understood why Apple discontinued any upgrading of Appleworks/Clarisworks and I've never seen any one give any explanation for why Apple ceased upgrading Appleworks and is letting it "die on the vine". Anyone have any explanation for Apple's behavior?:confused:

It's complicated. There's some history here:

http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bob/clarisworks.php

There is some stuff I'm not allowed to talk about, and no doubt a lot I don't know as well. But one additional point is that there were rumors of a backroom deal between Steve and Bill to keep ClarisWorks/AppleWorks from becoming more competition for Office.

Bob Hearn
ClarisWorks coauthor

adrianblaine
Jan 5, 2007, 09:40 AM
Yuck! It looks very UGLY and featureless. Oh, and can't Apple come up with a better name than iWork? I've always thought that is the dumbest name and I hope they change it soon.

iWork may always be the "consumer" name for it. There is a Pro version for all the iLife apps (except iWeb) so maybe iWork will get a "Pro" version eventually. I don't know how Keynote could get more professional, I consider it already more professional than PowerPoint, but Pages could get more advanced and start competing with InDesign (or at least have the capability).

Or, I guess it could just stay iWork, but that would sound rather silly in the corporate world.

BenRoethig
Jan 5, 2007, 09:41 AM
iWork may always be the "consumer" name for it. There is a Pro version for all the iLife apps (except iWeb) so maybe iWork will get a "Pro" version eventually. I don't know how Keynote could get more professional, I consider it already more professional than PowerPoint, but Pages could get more advanced and start competing with InDesign (or at least have the capability).

Or, I guess it could just stay iWork, but that would sound rather silly in the corporate world.

I don't forsee "ProWork" unless Word gets dropped.

It's complicated. There's some history here:

http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bob/clarisworks.php

There is some stuff I'm not allowed to talk about, and no doubt a lot I don't know as well. But one additional point is that there were rumors of a backroom deal between Steve and Bill to keep ClarisWorks/AppleWorks from becoming more competition for Office.

Bob Hearn
ClarisWorks coauthor

I have no doubt the Claris team could have built a true professional office competitor if they were given the opportunity.

uNext
Jan 5, 2007, 09:43 AM
iWork compared to office? lol

iWork is like fisher price toys of productivity.

Microsoft office crumbles everything related to iWork.

I know people hate microsoft but man their office suite is
1 bad ass software.

Sometimes apple feels like they belong in the 2-10 year category
i love simplicity but man comapring apple and microsoft
is so diffrent i dont see how this rivalry carried for so long.

Diatribe
Jan 5, 2007, 09:47 AM
I think there's a very complex dynamic going on here.

MS Office is the de-facto standard, and nothing is going to displace it in the corporate environment in the foreseeable future. However, Office is also a train-wreck from a software POV, partly due to it's age and Microsoft's laudable policy of not breaking backwards compatibility while adding increased complexity.

Everyone talks about how feature-encrusted Office is, and how they'd like a leaner, simpler system that just did what was necessary, but what's necessary is different for every user.

I think what Apple is trying to do with iWork is provide software that superficially looks like it is serving the non-corporate, non-pro users who don't need, and don't want to pay for MSOffice (with the exception of Keynote, which not only competes directly with PowerPoint, it makes PowerPoint look like utter crap). But iWork is also filling a bigger and more important role.

Apple knows that Microsoft's MacBU is going to get the chop. Office 2007 will be the last version of Office for OS X, and it's crippleware to start with (without VB support, it's a complete non-starter for many corporate clients). Microsoft will be telling their Mac-using clients to buy the Windows version and run it under Parallels.

So Apple needs to be able to provide an alternative to Office, without appearing to have driven MS from the platform by competing with their cash-cow.

What I expect to see is iWork continuing to develop modestly, filling the role of office applications for those who don't need the complete feature-set of MS Office (again, with the exception of Keynote, which I see as the flagship app of the suite) until MS announces the end of MacOffice development. At that point, I expect a major iWork upgrade, bringing the apps to near feature-parity with their MSOffice counterparts, and, most importantly, with 100% file sharing capability (which will be possible as MSOffice has been forced to use open standards for their file formats by the EU).

There will still be many shops that rely on VB automation that will be unable to use anything but MSOffice, and Apple simply won't compete in that market. However, iWork will be a viable option everywhere else, and I expect to see some significant improvements in the automation of iWork now that OS X development is starting to slow down.

The bottom line is that for the past couple of decades, Microsoft has had a knife to Apple's throat in the form of Office. Killing Office for Mac would effectively killed Apple. Now that Apple has got it's feet back under it, developing an alternative to MSOffice has to be a high priority as a counter to that long-feared move on Microsoft's part.

What I'd love to see is a version of iWork that people would be eager to use instead of Office available *before* MS kills Office development, but I don't think that's likely to happen.

Cheers

Nice post.

We might have a Chance on Apple offering feature parity if the compatibility is 100% guaranteed.

Besides that, I have yet to see any substancial evidence for MS pulling Office for the Mac. It makes them money, why would they?

adrianblaine
Jan 5, 2007, 09:48 AM
iWork compared to office? lol

iWork is like fisher price toys of productivity.

Microsoft office crumbles everything related to iWork.

I know people hate microsoft but man their office suite is
1 bad ass software.

Sometimes apple feels like they belong in the 2-10 year category
i love simplicity but man comapring apple and microsoft
is so diffrent i dont see how this rivalry carried for so long.

For just every day stuff, iWork is just fine, and a lot cheaper (much cheaper with the student discount). Office is overloaded with features that the average user doesn't use. As a simpler, cheaper alternative for those who do not need an advanced word processor iWork is fine.

Diatribe
Jan 5, 2007, 09:51 AM
iWork compared to office? lol

iWork is like fisher price toys of productivity.

Microsoft office crumbles everything related to iWork.

I know people hate microsoft but man their office suite is
1 bad ass software.

Sometimes apple feels like they belong in the 2-10 year category
i love simplicity but man comapring apple and microsoft
is so diffrent i dont see how this rivalry carried for so long.


:rolleyes:

Excel is an awesome app, I agree. Word is decent and better than Pages. But Powerpoint better than Keynote? I don't think so. Access better than Filemaker? Nope.
So one app a lot better and one a little bit is crushing...?

ready2switch
Jan 5, 2007, 09:53 AM
I feel that Excel is the strongest of the MS Office apps, so it will be interesting to see how this new iWork app turns out. On one hand, it would need to be pretty powerful and slick to make me want to give up Excel - then again, I am a bit of a power-user of Excel. On the other hand, Apple is all about simplicity, and perhaps they will be targeting "light" users who will find the basic features and ease-of-use more appealing and less intimidating than Excel. I guess we'll have to see...

Agreed. Excel is by far the "best" program out of MS Office. Word is just horrid. It has a ton of features and capabilities, yes, but for "power" or true professional users, it thinks too much. True professionals don't need the auto-formatting or any other assumptions that add massive amounts of code to your documents. Excel still has some of this, but it seems that its assumptions are much more basic, which allows power users to start from scratch, rather than undo/turn off/reformat every little thing.

I have not used any of the iWork programs, so I can't comment specifically on them as they are. What I would hope for in future revisions of iWork (or any Office replacement suite) is very basic applications (be it word processing, spreadsheets, presentations, or anything else) that have every feature I could ever need plus the ones I didn't know I needed. Nothing forced on me, but everything available to me. And the deal-breaker: Office compatible.

iWork as it is now may not be aimed at true professional users, but I believe in time and with development it can and should be the better alternative to Office. From what I know and have seen from Apple, they should be able to accomplish this and I look forward to seeing their 07 product, even if it contains a few "first tries".

MacVault
Jan 5, 2007, 09:54 AM
iWork compared to office? lol

iWork is like fisher price toys of productivity.

Microsoft office crumbles everything related to iWork.

I know people hate microsoft but man their office suite is
1 bad ass software.

Sometimes apple feels like they belong in the 2-10 year category
i love simplicity but man comapring apple and microsoft
is so diffrent i dont see how this rivalry carried for so long.

You're exactly right! I agree 100%! Apple seems to sacrifice features for simplicity and this makes many of their products seem like fisher price toys, such as Pages, iCal, Mail, etc, and probably the worst case of fisher-price-ness unfortunately is the OS X GUI.

adrianblaine
Jan 5, 2007, 09:56 AM
You're exactly right! I agree 100%! Apple seems to sacrifice features for simplicity and this makes many of their products seem like fisher price toys, such as Pages, iCal, Mail, etc, and probably the worst case of fisher-price-ness unfortunately is the OS X GUI.

have you looked at the default look for XP lately? The epitomey of "fisher-price-ness". I don't particularly care for how Office '07 looks on Windows either...

MacVault
Jan 5, 2007, 10:01 AM
For just every day stuff, iWork is just fine, and a lot cheaper (much cheaper with the student discount). Office is overloaded with features that the average user doesn't use. As a simpler, cheaper alternative for those who do not need an advanced word processor iWork is fine.

But why not have all the features available for when you do need them. Everyone says MS Office is bloated or whatever but what's wrong with having the features there for when you need them??? I'd much rather have a few extra features show up in the menus than have to install/run a different Application when I do need the extra features. It is SOOO nice knowing I have features and options when I'm using MS Office. I don't know why people praise feature-less-ness in the name of simplicity. That just makes me want to throw up :eek: .

adrianblaine
Jan 5, 2007, 10:06 AM
But why not have all the features available for when you do need them. Everyone says MS Office is bloated or whatever but what's wrong with having the features there for when you need them??? I'd much rather have a few extra features show up in the menus than have to install/run a different Application when I do need the extra features. It is SOOO nice knowing I have features and options when I'm using MS Office. I don't know why people praise feature-less-ness in the name of simplicity. That just makes me want to throw up :eek: .

I'm not defending Apple's need to be simple, I just don't have a need for the advanced features of Word. I am mostly under the impression that Apple is using this time to perfect the applications in iWork while MS still makes Office for Mac. Better now than leaving people without anything if Office does get pulled.

Machead III
Jan 5, 2007, 10:06 AM
Pages is next to useless. Even as it stands with it's few current features, it's slow, clunky and unberable to use reguarly.

As much as I hate to admit it, Word is a pretty excellent piece of software, and 2007 looks even better - the complex features are there if you need them, and even the biggest technophobe now knows which buttons they're interested in.

But most of all, it's fast - it loads quickly, it responds quickly, it's interface is slick and sharp. This is what Pages lacks most - it really does feel Fisher price.

Apple could and should be ready to take Pages up a notch to directly rival Word.

Xyl
Jan 5, 2007, 10:07 AM
have you looked at the default look for XP lately? The epitomey of "fisher-price-ness". I don't particularly care for how Office '07 looks on Windows either...

It reminds me of those horrific Teletubbies. :confused:

MacVault
Jan 5, 2007, 10:07 AM
have you looked at the default look for XP lately? The epitomey of "fisher-price-ness". I don't particularly care for how Office '07 looks on Windows either...

Oh yea, I was network admin for a couple years in an XP/Server 2003 environment, and maybe the "default look" seems toy-ish, but let's talk about features, right-click menu integration, UI consistency, etc - this is where MS blows Apple away! MS gives the user access to just about whatever option the user could ever imagine. Apple, on the other hand, tells the user what they should or shouldn't imagine/want.

p0intblank
Jan 5, 2007, 10:14 AM
Yay for a new application! :) Personally I'm more excited to see what iLife '07 has to offer, but iWork updates are good, too.

dernhelm
Jan 5, 2007, 10:22 AM
I'm not defending Apple's need to be simple, I just don't have a need for the advanced features of Word. I am mostly under the impression that Apple is using this time to perfect the applications in iWork while MS still makes Office for Mac. Better now than leaving people without anything if Office does get pulled.

I agree. I have both Office and iWork, and in the 80% case I use pages because it is quicker and easier to get obvious stuff done. Example: try mixing columns and tables in word and you will quickly go insane. But in iWork it just does what I want it to - it seems to guess what I'm after and work with me instead of against me. The same goes for placement of images, background colors and text wrapping. In all of these, I am 100% faster in Pages than I am in Word, and I generally like the results better when I am done. I do agree that the "inspector" panel was a little weird at first, but once I got used to it, I actually liked it better than "button bars" that never seem to be displayed when you want them to be.

There are times when I need the "extras" office provides, and I am glad I purchased it, but it infuriates me more often than not when I want to do some of the simplest things.

Keynote is simply better than powerpoint for what I do, and so I never use powerpoint except to view stuff sent to me from PC users. My own slideshows are all done in keynote. But then again I don't do that many.

For myself iWork '07 is a no-brainer purchase. I didn't upgrade to iWork '06 (because I didn't need most of the new features and didn't feel like spending the money). So I am ready for an update to the suite. I just hope the cost does not rise too much with the addition of the spreadsheet component.

lonepilgrim
Jan 5, 2007, 10:26 AM
Everybody requires you to have MS Office. Studens, small businesses and even a lot of home users will dump macs in droves when there is no MS Office option.
No one requires you to have Office. Office is far more complex than probably 99% of people need, business users included.

More and more people are buying Macs for home because they don't want an ugly Dell running Office like they already have in their own office.

2ndPath
Jan 5, 2007, 10:27 AM
But why not have all the features available for when you do need them. Everyone says MS Office is bloated or whatever but what's wrong with having the features there for when you need them??? I'd much rather have a few extra features show up in the menus than have to install/run a different Application when I do need the extra features. It is SOOO nice knowing I have features and options when I'm using MS Office. I don't know why people praise feature-less-ness in the name of simplicity. That just makes me want to throw up :eek: .

Yes, leaving out features for the sake of simplicity is not good. What rather needs to be done is to organize the features in a coherent way. I haven't used office so often recently, but one of the biggest problems of many of the professional applications is not the number of features, but the way they are organized. In photoshop for example there are several adjustment menues which do essentially the same but in several different ways. I guess it's the result of the organic growing of the applications and refining this into a coherent GUI is a challenge but would be very nice.

islanders
Jan 5, 2007, 10:34 AM
This is a good website that compares the features between Pages, Word and FrameMaker. It’s a little outdated but informative.

If you think you might be interested in Frame as an option, please sign the petition to bring Frame back to OSX.

http://www.fm4osx.org/comp.html

2ndPath
Jan 5, 2007, 10:35 AM
Oh yea, I was network admin for a couple years in an XP/Server 2003 environment, and maybe the "default look" seems toy-ish, but let's talk about features, right-click menu integration, UI consistency, etc - this is where MS blows Apple away! MS gives the user access to just about whatever option the user could ever imagine. Apple, on the other hand, tells the user what they should or shouldn't imagine/want.

I agree that vista offers a better access to more options, but in point of the consistency of the UI design I still think Mac OS is clearly ahead in the game.

sishaw
Jan 5, 2007, 10:38 AM
on what you want to do. Pages is fine for putting together a newsletter or something, and for mixing formats, as people have suggested. For anyone doing serious writing, such as a legal brief, news article, fiction, etc., Pages is unusably slow. Even OpenOffice is better.

Machead III
Jan 5, 2007, 10:38 AM
Even simple aspects of Word's interface make it much more approachable.

Icons needs to be small and inconspicuous, you do want plenty of them on the tool bar because you don't want to have to dive into menus all the time...

Even framing the document on all sides over a background, in Word 07 one that's nicely beveled, keeps you look in the right places and make the whole thing easier on the eyes.

ie. this screenshot

http://www.mstechtoday.com/screenshots/vista/5308/word2007.PNG

dernhelm
Jan 5, 2007, 10:40 AM
Oh yea, I was network admin for a couple years in an XP/Server 2003 environment, and maybe the "default look" seems toy-ish, but let's talk about features, right-click menu integration, UI consistency, etc - this is where MS blows Apple away! MS gives the user access to just about whatever option the user could ever imagine. Apple, on the other hand, tells the user what they should or shouldn't imagine/want.

So humor me. What features are you talking about that blows away OS/X?

Right click integration? Pick an issue that hasn't already been made moot. Ever since the mighty mouse introduction, OS/X has right-click integration shipping with their products. And even before that - right click was available if you simply purchased a two button mouse. And please don't tell me that "you shouldn't have to purchase another mouse" because I don't use the two-button mouse that shipped with my Dell machine either - mostly because it was so terrible.

Now let's talk about some windows features. Like Search. Ever used search to search for files with funny extensions? Notice it can't find these files? Ever wonder why? Because by default Windows ships with the inherent inability to locate files with unknown extensions. Of course, you can turn it on - by making prodigious use of the famed windows right-click integration. Here are the steps: right click My Computer then choose Manage -> Services and Applications -> Indexing Service. (Breathe) Right click on Indexing Service choose Properties, click on the checkbox that says "Index files with unknown extensions" and click OK. Now search will find files with extensions that are "unknown", whatever that means.

Thank God for right-click integration. That is so much easier then pressing command-space and typing what I'm looking for. And what is with Apple anyway? How dare they assume that I would want spotlight to look in files that have "unknown" extensions. The nerve of that company! And no option to turn it off either! Unbearable!

:rolleyes:

adrianblaine
Jan 5, 2007, 10:44 AM
Oh yea, I was network admin for a couple years in an XP/Server 2003 environment, and maybe the "default look" seems toy-ish, but let's talk about features, right-click menu integration, UI consistency, etc - this is where MS blows Apple away! MS gives the user access to just about whatever option the user could ever imagine. Apple, on the other hand, tells the user what they should or shouldn't imagine/want.

This is why so many people don't like Windows. In many ways Windows is very advanced so the average user is very confused, but I have never found the Apple way telling me what I "should or shouldn't imagine/want." In many ways, the "keep it simple stupid" philosophy enable just the opposite and allow more productivity.

Machead III
Jan 5, 2007, 10:53 AM
"Keep it simple stupid" works in consumer media apps like iPhoto and iMovie, where users can upgrade to Aperture and FCP if they need increased power and sophistication, but the world is used to Word - the app that everyone from computer newbs to business users can use thanks to the ability for the human mind to ignore what it doesn't need to pay attention too.

When people word process, the amount of complexity in the tasks they perform may usually be low, usually be high, but can quickly alternate between the two, as is the nature of written language. Two apps doesn't work for word processing (TextEdit is for a level way below even consumer word processing anyway), so Pages needs to be as complex as Word, and just as, if not more, easy to navigate and intuitive in order to balance that out.

The solution is not Fisher Price word processing that may or may not be suitable for your needs every time you double click on a document to boot up your primary word processor, which pretty soon, will have to be Pages.

lonepilgrim
Jan 5, 2007, 10:54 AM
This is why so many people don't like Windows. In many ways Windows is very advanced so the average user is very confused, but I have never found the Apple way telling me what I "should or shouldn't imagine/want." In many ways, the "keep it simple stupid" philosophy enable just the opposite and allow more productivity.
Exactly right - Macs are computers for the rest of us. (More than twenty years later that Apple slogan is happily still very true.)

BTW if one is a 'serious' writer, then for all of Pages' supposed shortcomings I would contend that Word is not exactly one's best option either. Once you get into the tens of thousands of words it is as slow as molasses, and god help you if you want to make global style changes in a couple of clicks.

The fact that Word is seen as 'standard' or the benchmark for everything is just another repulsive example of Microsoft ideology.

So let's just see Pages for what it is - a nice consumer app that helps relatively inexperienced computer users make pretty looking documents.

IJ Reilly
Jan 5, 2007, 10:58 AM
What I'd love to see is a version of iWork that people would be eager to use instead of Office available *before* MS kills Office development, but I don't think that's likely to happen.

Which people? Some of us are already very happy with iWork as an alternative to Office. A number of others apparently aren't going to be satisfied until iWork turns into an Office clone, which if it happened, those of us who like the current direction Apple is taking will dislike very much.

ready2switch
Jan 5, 2007, 11:02 AM
This is why so many people don't like Windows. In many ways Windows is very advanced so the average user is very confused...

I have to disagree. In my experiences, Windows on the whole tries to cater to the "average" user and ends up with default options that more advanced users would rather not have to change or work around or disable.

As a personal example, the first things I do on a new Windows computer are change the look back to classic, change the start menu, change the control panel, change the way folders are displayed, turn off any auto-format or auto-correct in programs, remove toolbars, remove icons, and on and on. From my level of use, Windows is "dumbing-down" my work and trying too hard to help me do the work that I am very capable of doing on my own.

~Shard~
Jan 5, 2007, 11:02 AM
Perhaps one way Apple could bridge the gap between the powerful Excel and a more simplistic "light" spreadsheet app is by making some of the powerful, yet more commonly used/useful features easier to use. For instance, some of the formulae I use in Excel are quite advanced with regards to cell references, cross-sheet references, etc. I know how to do them, but try and explain the proper use of the $ in a formula to represent constants to some people and you'll lose them. Yet, people do need this functionality from time to time. Perhaps it will be this type of functionality which Apple will try and simplify in this spreadsheet app (among other things of course).

IJ Reilly
Jan 5, 2007, 11:02 AM
Agreed - I think iWorks is really aimed at home users who like to do the odd newsletter, monthly budgets etc. After all, the suite is considerably cheaper than MS Office (excluding edu dicounts etc).

Nonsense! I don't know where people get this idea. I am using Pages as our every-day word processor for our business, and it is perfectly acceptable in this role already, and will only improve. Just because I'm a business user, doesn't mean I need a word processor with four zillion poorly implemented features.

clevin
Jan 5, 2007, 11:04 AM
Nonsense! I don't know where people get this idea. I am using Pages as our every-day word processor for our business, and it is perfectly acceptable in this role already, and will only improve. Just because I'm a business user, doesn't mean I need a word processor with four zillion poorly implemented features.

errr.... u are business minority. ;)

failsafe1
Jan 5, 2007, 11:05 AM
I barely use Excel, don't like Entourage, and could stop using Word. So I welcome stuff that works in OSX that frees me from using stuff I don't like. Bring on all the new stuff you can on Monday!!

IJ Reilly
Jan 5, 2007, 11:11 AM
errr.... u are business minority. ;)

I know, I started out that way. We use Macs. :)

Hombre
Jan 5, 2007, 11:12 AM
MS Office is not that much advanced as everyone is trying to suggest here. I tried to do a simple (!) automatic grading in Excel and wanted it to produce automated and personalized results in Word.

At least in the Mac version I had several problems:

1) Merging features have been _very_ chrash prone. I had to do replacement texts for many different grades and I was lucky that it did work at last. (After about 30 hangs/crashes)

2) Merging is very unintuitive and ugly. Replacement texts for fields are nearly unusable, espacially if you want to change different fields (e.g. their order).

3) Excel's documentation is way to complex and uneasy to understand. I made a mistake in the first row and put the names of the students in the first column. Should have put it in the first row, as merging is only possible with data from the header (limitation!). As I already had entered much data, I didn't want to start all over again. I simply wanted to make the first row the first column and vice versa. No way to do that automatically. I had to use the very cryptic MTRANS command to do that. I don't know how but it eventually worked. But I won't put my energy in such a crappy piece of software anymore. (And that was only a simple sheet of grades that were calculated from points and then merged in a Word document!)

To conclude my rant: I wish Apple would not try to produce an Excel clone, but rather put their efforts on a Lotus Improv clone with a refined Cocoa Interface. The screenshot does suggest it being more like improv, as I don't see any numbered lines or alphabetized columns. I keep my fingers crossed for Improv on steroids (and much easier to use for the end user).

adrianblaine
Jan 5, 2007, 11:15 AM
I have to disagree. In my experiences, Windows on the whole tries to cater to the "average" user and ends up with default options that more advanced users would rather not have to change or work around or disable.

As a personal example, the first things I do on a new Windows computer are change the look back to classic, change the start menu, change the control panel, change the way folders are displayed, turn off any auto-format or auto-correct in programs, remove toolbars, remove icons, and on and on. From my level of use, Windows is "dumbing-down" my work and trying too hard to help me do the work that I am very capable of doing on my own.

Windows may be "dumbing-down" for you, but overall OS X is even simpler out of the box. All the things you just described that you do in Windows the first time you use it is crazy. Shouldn't a UI be made in such a way that you wouldn't need to change that much when you first use it? I go through the same thing in Windows, but when I switched to OS X, all I had to do was customize my Dock and that was it.

the first things I do on a new Windows computer are change the look back to classic, change the start menu, change the control panel, change the way folders are displayed, turn off any auto-format or auto-correct in programs, remove toolbars, remove icons, and on and on.

You shouldn't have to do this much to make the OS "usable".

devman
Jan 5, 2007, 11:16 AM
None of the iWork apps are supposed to be MSOffice "killers". Pages, for instance, can't do half of what Word can, and neither can Keynote (although it does what it does very well, and one could say it does it much better than PowerPoint).

iWork is more of a consumer-level suite in my mind, but very well done. It doesn't have all the bells and whistles that Office has, but many folks won't need them. However, on the other hand, many of us will need them (for instance, I'm sure Lasso won't have any kind of Pivot Table functionality, which is something that myself and other corporate users use daily. Thats just one example).

Yep. These posts about iWork and MS Office are just nuts. It is not positioned by Apple to MS Office. It is positioned to MS Works or Appleworks.

That said; some of what iWork does, some people consider as good or good enough to the respective MS Office app. That's fine and that's their opinion (and in some cases I'd agree).

It does not change how Apple positions and develops iWork though.

thedbp
Jan 5, 2007, 11:19 AM
I have never understood why Apple discontinued any upgrading of Appleworks/Clarisworks and I've never seen any one give any explanation for why Apple ceased upgrading Appleworks and is letting it "die on the vine". Anyone have any explanation for Apple's behavior?:confused:

Maybe because the codebase goes back to Mac OS 6 or 7 and to use all the best parts of Mac OS X, it would have to be rewritten in Cocoa. Which means they would have to start from scratch.

Which is what they did.

AppleWorks is, and has been, on life support for a long time.

Let it die with dignity.

Hombre
Jan 5, 2007, 11:20 AM
Here's another screenshot of what we can (hopefully) expect:

http://www.webgraphics.at/macnews/Improv.gif

clevin
Jan 5, 2007, 11:20 AM
I simply wanted to make the first row the first column and vice versa.

paste special, check transpose

excel is powerful, u just need to know how to use it.
and powerful programs always need to be studied a little bit. like photoshop, illustrator, dreamweaver, and of course, excel.

devman
Jan 5, 2007, 11:21 AM
That's what I think too. If they would kill Office when it is profitable, then only to kill or hurt the Mac platform. I don't think that's in their interest.

You're kidding - right? MS won't do something to hurt a competitor that costs them money? Their history is FULL of such actions.

clevin
Jan 5, 2007, 11:21 AM
Here's another screenshot of what we can (hopefully) expect:

http://www.webgraphics.at/macnews/Improv.gif

wow, whats that? window maker?

dernhelm
Jan 5, 2007, 11:23 AM
I have to disagree. In my experiences, Windows on the whole tries to cater to the "average" user and ends up with default options that more advanced users would rather not have to change or work around or disable.

As a personal example, the first things I do on a new Windows computer are change the look back to classic, change the start menu, change the control panel, change the way folders are displayed, turn off any auto-format or auto-correct in programs, remove toolbars, remove icons, and on and on. From my level of use, Windows is "dumbing-down" my work and trying too hard to help me do the work that I am very capable of doing on my own.

Exactly. For me at least Windows makes all the wrong assumptions about what I want to do. The inability to work with me extends beyond the OS into the applications as well.

Frustrating.

Hombre
Jan 5, 2007, 11:23 AM
Let it die with dignity.

It's a good thing that AppleWorks is dead now. It never felt like a Mac app for me. Even in OS 9 or earlier. I'm thankful they have written a replacement in Cocoa.

Hombre
Jan 5, 2007, 11:24 AM
wow, whats that? window maker?

That's NeXTSTEP. Probably around 3.3.

xyian
Jan 5, 2007, 11:24 AM
True or not, when the hell is Apple going to come out with a database like Access? I have a real hard time believing that Filemaker Pro is the only major database application for the Mac.

Mac Fly (film)
Jan 5, 2007, 11:25 AM
Easy guys, you didn't see the new UI yet!

clevin
Jan 5, 2007, 11:26 AM
That's NeXTSTEP. Probably around 3.3.

oh, ok, then that GUI is window maker, looks pretty nice, :D

twoodcc
Jan 5, 2007, 11:27 AM
well i'm looking forward to getting my hands on this. cant wait....:)

lorien
Jan 5, 2007, 11:28 AM
Who needs Excel when there is Google Spreadsheets? ok, maybe for the more advanced functions, but the former is fine for basics

Hombre
Jan 5, 2007, 11:28 AM
paste special, check transpose

excel is powerful, u just need to know how to use it.
and powerful programs always need to be studied a little bit. like photoshop, illustrator, dreamweaver, and of course, excel.

I don't know what my problem was, but that didn't resolve it. I ended up using MTRANS. Ever tried that one?

sishaw
Jan 5, 2007, 11:30 AM
Nonsense! I don't know where people get this idea. I am using Pages as our every-day word processor for our business, and it is perfectly acceptable in this role already, and will only improve. Just because I'm a business user, doesn't mean I need a word processor with four zillion poorly implemented features.

People get the idea from trying to use Pages. If I type at my normal speed, which is only maybe 50-60 wpm, it just locks up. IMHO, the only way you could be using it and not be going bonkers is if you're a hunt-and-peck typist.

bob_hearn
Jan 5, 2007, 11:30 AM
It's a good thing that AppleWorks is dead now. It never felt like a Mac app for me. Even in OS 9 or earlier. I'm thankful they have written a replacement in Cocoa.

Of course you're entitled to your opinion, but I would submit that at the time ClarisWorks was written, during the OS 6/7 transition days, the interface was as quintessential Mac as it could get. Everything was designed to be as consistent as possible with MacWrite, MacDraw, MacPaint, etc. And to avoid the Microsoft interface clutter that is being argued about so much in this thread. We won quite a few awards for interface design. In those days the idea was "simple things -- easy, complicated things -- possible". I think we did quite well. These days the balance at Apple has tended to swing towards, if there's not a simple, clean way of adding a feature, then don't have that feature.

Now, by the time ClarisWorks came to be renamed AppleWorks, that's a whole 'nother story. It was indeed dated by then.

Bob Hearn

clevin
Jan 5, 2007, 11:32 AM
I don't know what my problem was, but that didn't resolve it. I ended up using MTRANS. Ever tried that one?

ooops, thats weird. I didn't use MTRANS.
http://img287.imageshack.us/img287/9131/picture1tv0.png

~Shard~
Jan 5, 2007, 11:32 AM
MS Office is not that much advanced as everyone is trying to suggest here.

Yes it is. You just have to know how to unleash its power. This is at least the case with Excel. :cool:

Who needs Excel when there is Google Spreadsheets? ok, maybe for the more advanced functions, but the former is fine for basics

Don't you mean "the latter"? :p ;)

Hombre
Jan 5, 2007, 11:34 AM
Of course you're entitled to your opinion, but I would submit that at the time ClarisWorks was written, during the OS 6/7 transition days, the interface was as quintessential Mac as it could get.
[...]
Now, by the time ClarisWorks came to be renamed AppleWorks, that's a whole 'nother story. It was indeed dated by then.


I used it for the first time in 1998. It was obviously already AppleWorks back then. I can't judge earlier versions, but then it felt like it Apple wasn't investing much in it anymore.

Object-X
Jan 5, 2007, 11:35 AM
I like it. Not sure why there are so many negitive criticisms of it, especially since no one has tried it yet. Office for Mac is extremely dated and Microsoft hasn't updated or improved it in years. So, I welcome Apple's offering. I think if you really "need" the more advanced features of Office you are better off running the Windows version under Parallels and Coherance.

I don't think most Office users ever use half of what these applications can do. Apple really has the right idea. They sell a suite of software that does what most people need and it's priced reasonably. For everyone else who needs advanced features Microsoft Office is there and they can pay $$$ for it. Best of both worlds really.

I apprecite Apple not screwing us; unlike Microsoft, who forces you to buy and expensive and more advanced suite of software than you need because they can.

Hombre
Jan 5, 2007, 11:36 AM
ooops, thats weird. I didn't use MTRANS.


I know that function as well, but as I've already written: That didn't help me back then. Unfortunately I don't have the file on my disk anymore...

MacVault
Jan 5, 2007, 11:40 AM
True or not, when the hell is Apple going to come out with a database like Access? I have a real hard time believing that Filemaker Pro is the only major database application for the Mac.

Apple could use a more enterprise-level database app - maybe something based on SQL, but I HOPE APPLE NEVER MAKES ANYTHING LIKE MS ACCESS. Access is the most hell-ish app I have ever seen or had to work with.

MacVault
Jan 5, 2007, 11:45 AM
...I think if you really "need" the more advanced features of Office you are better off running the Windows version under Parallels and Coherance...

That is unacceptable as a solution. It's a shame that this seems to be the only solution for an increasing number of things on the Mac. Rather than getting real OS X Cocoa apps we are having to run Windows now to get fully powered apps such as for personal finance, CAD, etc, and now for productivity (word processing, etc). What a shame :mad:

clevin
Jan 5, 2007, 11:45 AM
I like it. Not sure why there are so many negitive criticisms of it, especially since no one has tried it yet. Office for Mac is extremely dated and Microsoft hasn't updated or improved it in years. So, I welcome Apple's offering. I think if you really "need" the more advanced features of Office you are better off running the Windows version under Parallels and Coherance.

I don't think most Office users ever use half of what these applications can do. Apple really has the right idea. They sell a suite of software that does what most people need and it's priced reasonably. For everyone else who needs advanced features Microsoft Office is there and they can pay $$$ for it. Best of both worlds really.

I apprecite Apple not screwing us; unlike Microsoft, who forces you to buy and expensive and more advanced suite of software than you need because they can.

i disagree M$ force u to buy while apple doesn't, 3 licenses MS Office 2004 education verion cost $114. thats <$40 a copy, that isn't expensive, and iWork isn't free neither.

I agree apple's spreadsheet doesn't need to be as powerful as M$ excel, but again, in the arena, there is a free one, open office, with cross platform support.

But yeah, apple should try, at least for the future.

zami
Jan 5, 2007, 12:01 PM
Although I use Pages for letter writing like AppleWorks there seems to be the problem that it won't save in a standard "word document" format. Pehaps this is just me being thick but what is the work around?

SiliconAddict
Jan 5, 2007, 12:05 PM
Pros - Apple finally has a complete package that replaces the aging POS that is Apple Works. It also is a cheaper package then Office.

Cons- Anyone in a business environment won't go near it because it isn't office.

Indifferent- XOver and Parallels makes the con a moot point for anyone who already owns office.


I already own office 2003 so this isn't that big of a deal, for me that is. I can see this as being great for your average user. However I would absolutely KILL to see this bundled into the purchase of a new Mac. Yes if MS did it people would be screaming bloody murder but Apple owns the platform from transistors to kernels, and as such its their right. Finally a truly complete package with one single purchase. Its a wonderful dream. :rolleyes:

i disagree M$ force u to buy while apple doesn't, 3 licenses MS Office 2004 education verion cost $114. thats <$40 a copy, that isn't expensive, and iWork isn't free neither.

I agree apple's spreadsheet doesn't need to be as powerful as M$ excel, but again, in the arena, there is a free one, open office, with cross platform support.

But yeah, apple should try, at least for the future.

why does everyone think that everyone in the known universe still goes to school and as such qualifies for an educational discount? :confused:

Granted I'm considering going back but for now I and many others DON'T qualify.

2ndPath
Jan 5, 2007, 12:08 PM
You're kidding - right? MS won't do something to hurt a competitor that costs them money? Their history is FULL of such actions.

Generally spoken that is true. But the situation is different with Apple. Microsoft even helped them out in the past. These two companies get on better together than it looks on at first. Microsoft loved having Apple as a compeditor. They needed a compeditor for anti-trust trials and they might need one again. And Apple is perfectly fitting this spot as a company which is not aggressively trying to get a bigger market share. And Bill Gates, for example, who still has a lot to say at MS, is a Mac fan. They are much more agressive against other compeditors. Just remember Steve Ballmer comparing open source software to cancer, when talking about Linux.

I think MS likes having Apple as the small compeditor, which regularily inspires them with new things that are later on copied into windows.

shelterpaw
Jan 5, 2007, 12:12 PM
iWork is not meant to challenge MS Office. Just like iPhoto is not meant to challenge PhotoShop. Clearly iLife and iWork are consumer based applications that offer simplicity for the consumer. They're not trying to triumph in the professional market, so comparing them is silly.

If you want an Office alternative you could use NeoOffice (openoffice) or ThinkFree Office. Both are fairly feature rich and are competitors to MS Office. If you're a web junky and you just need to punch out a document or a simple spreadsheet you can use Google's Doc & Spreadsheets.

iWork is great for a consumer who wants an integrated suite with simplicity. It'll get the job done and it'll look semi professional. It's not a workhorse and it's not meant to be. I think it's good for what it is and it'll only get better.

Clive At Five
Jan 5, 2007, 12:13 PM
I think that once we saw that Keynote blew the pants off MS Powerpoint, we expected Apple to finish the job with a winner of an office suite. Then, Pages, we found out, was not so killer. It didn't suck, but it didn't best MS Word. People have mentioned, however, that it's better for making newletters and whatnot. Well here's my question:

Does Pages blow the pants off of MS Publisher? (Or is it Apple's intent to do so?) I mean, think about it. Publisher sucks as a word processor, but it *could* function as one... Maybe the current Pages is meant to evolve into a Publisher competitor and Apple will release a dedicated word processor, which will compete with MS Word. One never knows.

So for those of you saying "Charts" won't blow the pants off of Excel, don't be too sure. It very well might. It also, may very well be aimed at a consumer level, like many have already mentioned.

Regardless, we're talking about Apple, and Apple knows what they're doing. They know when their software is lack-luster, they know how to make it better, and you can be assured that they will do whatever they can to make iWork a viable option for as many people as possible.

-Clive

MacsAttack
Jan 5, 2007, 12:14 PM
Although I use Pages for letter writing like AppleWorks there seems to be the problem that it won't save in a standard "word document" format. Pehaps this is just me being thick but what is the work around?

File->Expot->Word appears to do the trick quite well enough...

I've been trying out Pages 6 for the last month (trial version about to expire) with a view to using it as a Word replacement. I need it for doing freelance writing where the required document format is Word. I've been using Word since Word for Windows 1.0a, and to be brutally honest that version would still be perfectly suitable for 99% of Word users today. I don't use any of the features that have bloated the application over teh years. None of my coleagues in my day job (in an IT copmpany no less) require any of the features. None of the people I have colaborated on writing projects in my freelance moonlighting role use any of those features. The only the requirment for a consistent file format has kept Word where it is (and not always - thanks to M$ fudging about with formats just to try and get people to upgrade).

My month with Pages has proven it to be a perfectly acceptible substitute - and far less expensive than upgrading to the next version of Word on the Mac is going to cost.

If a spreadsheet is added to iWork next week then I will be very tempted to buy it.

clevin
Jan 5, 2007, 12:14 PM
why does everyone think that everyone in the known universe still goes to school and as such qualifies for an educational discount? :confused:

Granted I'm considering going back but for now I and many others DON'T qualify.

didn't try before, can anybody tell me if u goto macmall and buy a student version, will they ask you for proof of student/teacher or not?

digitalbiker
Jan 5, 2007, 12:15 PM
Do you ever work with image-intensive documents? Pages is incomparably better than Word in that respect. Its behavior is much more rational (though still not perfectly rational), and my productivity with it is much higher.

My experience is just the opposite.

I tried putting together a simple document with two graphics on each page with a table. The document was 55 two sided pages or 110 pages in total.

Trust me you don't want to even open this document with Pages. It takes literally 8 mins on a 1.67 GHz PPC PB with 2GB memory. This is with iWork 06. Everytime you scroll to make an edit or view another part of the document it forces a re-draw and there is about a 2 minute wait for the document to update.

Putting together the document was torture. It was a series of unlock / ungroup/ re-select/ alter position/ delete page break/ fix page spanning/ re-group/ re-lock. It drove me nuts!

I hate Pages. I haven't touched it since except for creating simple one page notes of information to myself. It is a worthless piece of CR%P. Not even close to a Word replacement and not a true desktop publishing app. It falls in the middle and fails.

I have given this document to other mac users who were Pages fanatics who thought that they could fix the document for me. That I had obviously done something wrong or were exagerating. Guess what everyone has failed miserably and now agree that this maybe the worst piece of software ever created by Apple.:mad: :mad: :mad:

SiliconAddict
Jan 5, 2007, 12:15 PM
Generally spoken that is true. But the situation is different with Apple. Microsoft even helped them out in the past. These two companies get on better together than it looks on at first. Microsoft loved having Apple as a compeditor. They needed a compeditor for anti-trust trials and they might need one again. And Apple is perfectly fitting this spot as a company which is not aggressively trying to get a bigger market share. And Bill Gates, for example, who still has a lot to say at MS, is a Mac fan. They are much more agressive against other compeditors. Just remember Steve Ballmer comparing open source software to cancer, when talking about Linux.

I think MS likes having Apple as the small compeditor, which regularily inspires them with new things that are later on copied into windows.


The problem is that now Microsoft can pull the same crap they did with IE. Point and tell everyone that Apple has their own solution and anyone who wants to can run Office through XOver or Parallels. (Even though Office 2003 in XOver is still a joke.) There simply is no reason for MS to continue to develop for the Mac platform. There are many alternate solutions now. I fully expect MS to release a UB of Office and then kill MS office for the Mac.

MacsAttack
Jan 5, 2007, 12:18 PM
3 licenses MS Office 2004 education verion cost $114. thats <$40 a copy, that isn't expensive

But if you don;t qualify for the educational version (and you need to install it on a laptop and a desktop), then it is in fact very,very expensive.

cgc
Jan 5, 2007, 12:20 PM
I just wish Apple would collaborate/buy-out the Neo Office stuff and improve that.

IJ Reilly
Jan 5, 2007, 12:20 PM
People get the idea from trying to use Pages. If I type at my normal speed, which is only maybe 50-60 wpm, it just locks up. IMHO, the only way you could be using it and not be going bonkers is if you're a hunt-and-peck typist.

Well, I'm neither hunt-and-peck nor 50 wpm unless I'm really on a roll, so I'm not ordinarily affected by this problem (which is lag, not lock-up). When I'm just hammering out text I don't use any word processor anyway -- I use TextEdit. But I agree, Pages needs to be made faster to keep up with efficient typists.

clevin
Jan 5, 2007, 12:22 PM
But if you don;t qualify for the educational version (and you need to install it on a laptop and a desktop), then it is in fact very,very expensive.

well, i understand. then i guess the question becomes, how good will iWork spreadsheet be when compare to openoffice?

I just wish Apple would collaborate/buy-out the Neo Office stuff and improve that.

they don't need to buy, openoffice is opensource, apple can do this just like they did with safari and KHTML, buy apple will need to make iWork free in some form, which I doubt they want to.

adrianblaine
Jan 5, 2007, 12:27 PM
why does everyone think that everyone in the known universe still goes to school and as such qualifies for an educational discount? :confused:

Granted I'm considering going back but for now I and many others DON'T qualify.

If you aren't in school than iWork is an even better deal. It isn't that much more than the Ed-discount, but Office is much more without the student discount.

MacsAttack
Jan 5, 2007, 12:28 PM
Well, I'm neither hunt-and-peck nor 50 wpm unless I'm really on a roll, so I'm not ordinarily affected by this problem (which is lag, not lock-up). When I'm just hammering out text I don't use any word processor anyway -- I use TextEdit. But I agree, Pages needs to be made faster to keep up with efficient typists.

I've not had any problems with lag... But with a 3GHz Quad Mac Pro behind it "lag" is not somehting I've had a problem with. Perhaps I should dig out my old G4 Mac Mini an see what it is like there???? :D

zami
Jan 5, 2007, 12:28 PM
File->Expot->Word appears to do the trick quite well enough...

I've been trying out Pages 6 for the last month (trial version about to expire) with a view to using it as a Word replacement. I need it for doing freelance writing where the required document format is Word. I've been using Word since Word for Windows 1.0a, and to be brutally honest that version would still be perfectly suitable for 99% of Word users today. I don't use any of the features that have bloated the application over teh years. None of my coleagues in my day job (in an IT copmpany no less) require any of the features. None of the people I have colaborated on writing projects in my freelance moonlighting role use any of those features. The only the requirment for a consistent file format has kept Word where it is (and not always - thanks to M$ fudging about with formats just to try and get people to upgrade).

My month with Pages has proven it to be a perfectly acceptible substitute - and far less expensive than upgrading to the next version of Word on the Mac is going to cost.

If a spreadsheet is added to iWork next week then I will be very tempted to buy it.

Thanks, that does it for me.

Enough with the lumbering Microsoft POS that takes for ever to start itself up and in its absurd over complication reminds me of Gates' sick self.

Xeem
Jan 5, 2007, 12:28 PM
I know several people that have been waiting for an iWork spreadsheet program; my dad, for example, is sick of having to run OpenOffice in addition to Pages and Keynote (and he wouldn't touch MS Office with a ten foot stick). Hopefully this pans out.

IJ Reilly
Jan 5, 2007, 12:28 PM
i disagree M$ force u to buy while apple doesn't, 3 licenses MS Office 2004 education verion cost $114. thats <$40 a copy, that isn't expensive, and iWork isn't free neither.

Most people don't get this deal. They have to pay $400 for one copy of Office. However, anybody can get an iWork family pack for $100. That's $20 a seat.

Apple gives us a bargain, and still people complain.

Obligatory eye-rolling to follow:








:rolleyes:

simontarr
Jan 5, 2007, 12:34 PM
didn't try before, can anybody tell me if u goto macmall and buy a student version, will they ask you for proof of student/teacher or not?

Buy it online- no one will ask you for ID then

donlphi
Jan 5, 2007, 12:35 PM
I never heard that Microsoft was going to quit making an OS X verions of Office. I have a hunch they are going to wait to upgrade it so the Vista version looks more and functions more like the mac version. The UI is so clunky in windows. They aren't going to fire a bunch of guys in programming when they are clearly making money selling to the Apple users. When you think about all the things microsoft creates and loses money on, they aren't going to stop making money because they want to stick it to Steve Jobs.

I don't see them making any significant changes to MS WORD anyway. How much better can you make a memo look?

Honestly, I just like the built in "SAVE AS PDF" function on my apps so I can send things out in that format. I don't like the blue and red formatting lines that show up when I send word documents anyway.

MacsAttack
Jan 5, 2007, 12:40 PM
Most people don't get this deal. They have to pay $400 for one copy of Office. However, anybody can get an iWork family pack for $100. That's $20 a seat.

Apple gives us a bargain, and still people complain.

Obligatory eye-rolling to follow:








:rolleyes:

An interesting excercie is to look at how every single component and program you run on it has come down in price by orders of magnitude over the last 10 years.

With one exception.

Any OS or application with the word "MicroSoft" on it...

Makes you think.

J Radical
Jan 5, 2007, 12:42 PM
Theres a lot of predictable hate for anything Microsoft here, but I must say that Office 2007 looks damn good. It's the typical Apple cliché to say "PC's are good for dull office stuff.' But under the pejorative marketing jargon it's true!

Office 07 is way ahead of iwork and open/neooffice, you have to hand it to microsoft, they did a great job, and they ain't gonna share it with OS X until Q4 07 I believe...

If Office support for Mac is coming to an end, Apple needs to get a move on and make iWork brilliant at everything, not just presentations and graphics. They should also bundle it with every mac- selling a computer with no word processor is like selling a car with no wheels IMO. (Not everyone has heard of NeoOffice)

Any chance Apple could team up with the open source community and overhaul openoffice for a 3.0 release? If this is iWork 07, I'm disappointed.


There used to be a nice demo of word 07 on the MS website, the link is down however (haha)

http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/suites/HA101672651033.aspx

highres
Jan 5, 2007, 12:51 PM
MS Office is one of the most stable apps on my Mac and has been for years. XL is still the best spreadsheet program out there and will continue to be for quite some time.

All the programs in iWork in general are for beginner or basic users and were created for that purpose or demographic, it's like comparing iWeb to Dreamweaver.

Why would people expect the new spreadsheet app in iWork to be a a fully professional or industrial version when it's purpose is to introduce people to spreadsheet basics?

clevin
Jan 5, 2007, 12:54 PM
Why would people expect the new spreadsheet app in iWork to be a a fully professional or industrial version when it's purpose is to introduce people to spreadsheet basics?

good point, maybe because ppl have high hope for apple, and openoffice is free for basic spreadsheet functions...

dernhelm
Jan 5, 2007, 12:56 PM
Theres a lot of predictable hate for anything Microsoft here, but I must say that Office 2007 looks damn good. It's the typical Apple cliché to say "PC's are good for dull office stuff.' But under the pejorative marketing jargon it's true!

Office 07 is way ahead of iwork and open/neooffice, you have to hand it to microsoft, they did a great job, and they ain't gonna share it with OS X until Q4 07 I believe...

If Office support for Mac is coming to an end, Apple needs to get a move on and make iWork brilliant at everything, not just presentations and graphics. They should also bundle it with every mac- selling a computer with no word processor is like selling a car with no wheels IMO. (Not everyone has heard of NeoOffice)

Any chance Apple could team up with the open source community and overhaul openoffice for a 3.0 release? If this is iWork 07, I'm disappointed.


There used to be a nice demo of word 07 on the MS website, the link is down however (haha)

http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/suites/HA101672651033.aspx

That means every copy of Windows ships with no wheels? Or are you calling notepad and/or wordpad an actual word processor?

J Radical
Jan 5, 2007, 01:02 PM
MS Office is one of the most stable apps on my Mac and has been for years. XL is still the best spreadsheet program out there and will continue to be for quite some time.

All the programs in iWork in general are for beginner or basic users and were created for that purpose or demographic, it's like comparing iWeb to Dreamweaver.

Why would people expect the new spreadsheet app in iWork to be a a fully professional or industrial version when it's purpose is to introduce people to spreadsheet basics?

From what you are saying there is no point in anyone buying iWork at all. Office is the defacto standard on the PC, there is no 'beginner' or 'basic' office suite on world's most popular OS.

Office 07 (and most of the offices before it) show that a powerful office app and a user friendly app aren't mutally exclusive, Office 07 does everything iWork does and more. In order for iWork to be relevant, it needs to be competitive.

Office 2007 UI > iWork UI. Apple should really get over their pride, bite the bullet and start their photocopiers.

dernhelm
Jan 5, 2007, 01:03 PM
I think that once we saw that Keynote blew the pants off MS Powerpoint, we expected Apple to finish the job with a winner of an office suite. Then, Pages, we found out, was not so killer. It didn't suck, but it didn't best MS Word. People have mentioned, however, that it's better for making newletters and whatnot. Well here's my question:

Does Pages blow the pants off of MS Publisher? (Or is it Apple's intent to do so?) I mean, think about it. Publisher sucks as a word processor, but it *could* function as one... Maybe the current Pages is meant to evolve into a Publisher competitor and Apple will release a dedicated word processor, which will compete with MS Word. One never knows.

So for those of you saying "Charts" won't blow the pants off of Excel, don't be too sure. It very well might. It also, may very well be aimed at a consumer level, like many have already mentioned.

Regardless, we're talking about Apple, and Apple knows what they're doing. They know when their software is lack-luster, they know how to make it better, and you can be assured that they will do whatever they can to make iWork a viable option for as many people as possible.

-Clive

You bring up a very good point. Word is terrible at page layout. Publisher is just plain terrible. Yes, Pages does blow the pants of of publisher for page layout. And now that I come to think of it, that is most of what I use Pages for. I never thought of it that way before, but Pages is an excellent Publisher competitor.

But here is one case where I hope Apple doesn't release a separate word-processing product to compete with Word. They should instead upgrade Pages capability to better compete with the more salient features of Word. Hopefully they can do so without losing the simplicity that their product shows now.

adrianblaine
Jan 5, 2007, 01:06 PM
Office 2007 UI > iWork UI. Apple should really get over their pride, bite the bullet and start their photocopiers.

Have we stopped to think that Apple isn't trying to compete with MS but rather trying to create a new market? MS is not going after the average home user with Office, especially with the pricetag. For all intents and purposes iWork is everything an average home user needs without the loss of money. I don't think most people are moving to the free apps online in droves, it is for them that iWork may be for.

J Radical
Jan 5, 2007, 01:06 PM
That means every copy of Windows ships with no wheels? Or are you calling notepad and/or wordpad an actual word processor?

Every PC I've bought came with windows and the office/ms works suite.

Thats not to say you don't have a point.

Have we stopped to think that Apple isn't trying to compete with MS but rather trying to create a new market? MS is not going after the average home user with Office, especially with the pricetag. For all intents and purposes iWork is everything an average home user needs without the loss of money. I don't think most people are moving to the free apps online in droves, it is for them that iWork may be for.

Sorry, but I disagree. Having grown up using office for school work etc, iWork doesn't cut the mustard. Don't get me wrong, pages is nice and keynote is definitely better than the current powerpoint, but as a package office is plain better.

swingerofbirch
Jan 5, 2007, 01:08 PM
I think that a lot of the advanced features Office has are not used by most users. iWork--like iLife and Mac OS X--brings the best of what a computer can do to the end user very quickly. I gave two Keynote presentations in my public speaking class and everyone was AMAZED. They asked me so many questions about the Mac and Keynote and said I could have sold them one on the spot.

I think that you may find some of the more advanced collaboration features in Office will be partially found in the next version of iChat with screen sharing.

I like Keynote and Pages so much that I don't even know if I will have a reason to upgrade. Also, because I have no use for a spreadsheet app. The only enhancement I could see would be a speed improvement in Pages.

Hombre
Jan 5, 2007, 01:08 PM
didn't try before, can anybody tell me if u goto macmall and buy a student version, will they ask you for proof of student/teacher or not?

The problem is that you break the license agreement when you use an edu version and don't qualify for it. You could then use a pirated copy as well. Doesn't make a difference.

Lovesong
Jan 5, 2007, 01:10 PM
MS Office is one of the most stable apps on my Mac and has been for years. XL is still the best spreadsheet program out there and will continue to be for quite some time.
Really? I must not be living right then, because in my experience, the only pieces of software that I have had crash on me on a consistent basis have been made by microsoft and adobe. Don't get me wrong, Excel is good. And given my lack of options, I use it on a daily basis. However, I have found myself using Pages and Keynote for most of my word processing/ presentation stuff, and in many ways, I'm hoping that this spreadsheet application will have the math prowess to allow me to abandon XL as well.

MacsAttack
Jan 5, 2007, 01:13 PM
All the programs in iWork in general are for beginner or basic users and were created for that purpose or demographic


And most people have very basic requirments but end up using word only because they have to use the Word file format - not because they need any of the other features...

MicroSoft has had trouble selling new versions of office since '97 because most users don't need any of the new features. Companies were not amused when they have to shell out for upgrades to office just because MicroSoft changes the file format and now they can' read some of the stuff they are being sent by other companies. That is no joke. It really did happen. People go so fed up having to constantly e-mail others and ask them to resend documents, only saved using the "save-as" option so that the correct file format would be used...

Excel is a slightly different proposition, but most people at home or in the office don't need Word. Only access to it's file format.

Clive At Five
Jan 5, 2007, 01:23 PM
But here is one case where I hope Apple doesn't release a separate word-processing product to compete with Word. They should instead upgrade Pages capability to better compete with the more salient features of Word. Hopefully they can do so without losing the simplicity that their product shows now.

Hmm interesting... It would be less confusing to have fewer apps, but on the other hand, if iWork integration becomes as tight as iLife integration, the number of apps becomes more and more irrelevant. Think about it: As awkward as it would be, you *could* satisfy your desire to listen to music without even launching iTunes, because iPhoto, iMovie, and iDVD all have access to the iTunes Library. Sure you'd have to click and play one song at a time, and you wouldn't be able to continue working in that given program until you stopped listening to music, but the point is that it could be done.

Project that sort of integration onto an office suite. Pulling spreadsheets, presentations, page layouts, and word processing documents in and out through each individual application... sure you'd need a iWork Library, but think of how powerful a tool that would be. *licks chops*

Also, if I'm word processing with no intention of doing layout construction, I don't want to be bothered by those functions cluttering up my window. I would prefer a word app, a spreadsheet app, a presentation app, and then use Pages to pull everything together into a super document, full of all types of iWork "media."

That would be beautiful.

-Clive

adrianblaine
Jan 5, 2007, 01:27 PM
Sorry, but I disagree. Having grown up using office for school work etc, iWork doesn't cut the mustard. Don't get me wrong, pages is nice and keynote is definitely better than the current powerpoint, but as a package office is plain better.

What are you doing that Pages is unable to do? I've used for the last 2 years in school and I have never run into any problems. As far as I'm concerned, it is a perfect solution for a Student/Home user.

Clive At Five
Jan 5, 2007, 01:27 PM
...most people at home or in the office don't need Word. Only access to it's file format.

How very true indeed.

-Clive

BWhaler
Jan 5, 2007, 01:50 PM
That's because they know MS will stop making Office for Mac after this next version.

Nope...MS just signed a new multi-year deal with Apple to continue developing Office.

Sure, given how long it takes Microsoft to develop anything, the agreement may expire. But I think MS is more afraid of Apple porting a solid Office killer over the the PC then they let on. Sure, the big corporations won't care, but it will kill them in the SMB market. (And Apple did it to Adobe.)

adrianblaine
Jan 5, 2007, 01:52 PM
Sure, given how long it takes Microsoft to develop anything, the agreement may expire.

This is what I was counting on...

J Radical
Jan 5, 2007, 02:02 PM
What are you doing that Pages is unable to do? I've used for the last 2 years in school and I have never run into any problems. As far as I'm concerned, it is a perfect solution for a Student/Home user.

The most succinct answer is probably "file format standard" as has already been discussed. But more broadly the entire suite is a standard in itself- schools and businesses everywhere rely on office. Most non technical people would prefer Office to iWork because it's what they know and is more powerful to boot. The success of the Office UI cannot be denied.

(And I used a lot of Excel, not only for science but also for tables in other projects)


I'm basically saying that overall Office is more powerful and easier to use. I hope Apple makes iWork as good, but I don't think they can without revamping the interface entirely.

Mac'Mo
Jan 5, 2007, 02:04 PM
doesn't look very impressive =(

~Shard~
Jan 5, 2007, 02:14 PM
doesn't look very impressive =(

It's just one screenshot. I'll reserve judgment until I find out some actual details about the app and see a demo of it. :cool:

BBC B 32k
Jan 5, 2007, 02:32 PM
my mac came with a wordprocessor installed - Textedit - I always use it for quick plain text letters or notes. you get just what you see on the screen - just like the old days :p

by the way I do use Pages as I have a small buisness and it produces fine looking paperwork. For a spreadsheet I use Google spreadsheet online or Pages for small stuff. Heck I even file my returns online and do not even need an app as it is all done online.

For running a company MS office is just great, but for a small fish like me I have all I need.

Bring back View/Viewsheet/Viewdata ;)

xyian
Jan 5, 2007, 03:02 PM
I agree with you wholeheartedly MacVault. I just used Access as a comparison because it comes with the Windows Office Suite. SQL or a relational database management system for the Mac would give me a lot more leeway to work at home more often. :cool: Apple could use a more enterprise-level database app - maybe something based on SQL, but I HOPE APPLE NEVER MAKES ANYTHING LIKE MS ACCESS. Access is the most hell-ish app I have ever seen or had to work with.

Roy
Jan 5, 2007, 03:17 PM
It's complicated. There's some history here:

http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bob/clarisworks.php

There is some stuff I'm not allowed to talk about, and no doubt a lot I don't know as well. But one additional point is that there were rumors of a backroom deal between Steve and Bill to keep ClarisWorks/AppleWorks from becoming more competition for Office.

Bob Hearn
ClarisWorks coauthor

Bob,

Thanks for the information. A lot of behind-the-scenes information. Excellent program. I've used it more than any other software. Only wish IWorks could be as good.

Roy

milo
Jan 5, 2007, 03:24 PM
You're exactly right! I agree 100%! Apple seems to sacrifice features for simplicity and this makes many of their products seem like fisher price toys, such as Pages, iCal, Mail, etc, and probably the worst case of fisher-price-ness unfortunately is the OS X GUI.

Does office express have more features than iCal and Mail? Don't forget that the iLife apps are *free* when you buy a mac, so those should be compared to free apps bundled with windows, not Office.

And lets not forget that the Apple apps are brand new ones, created from scratch. More features are added with new versions. While Apple may be leaving some things out for the sake of simplicity, other features are missing because they haven't been added yet.


I think Word is overkill for many (if not most) home users, and a decent number of office users. There are a huge number of people using Word for file compatibility that never use a single feature beyond what Pages (or often even Text Edit) has.

belovedmonster
Jan 5, 2007, 03:42 PM
People are talking about the need for a replacement for Office in 5 years time, but I believe that in 5 years time everyone will be using none propriety files most of the time when it comes to sharing documents, and thus it wont matter if you have MS Office or OpenOffice or iWork or use online apps such as those offered by Google. 5 years from now .doc and the other MS files wont be able to hold the business world hostage anymore.

Sure, you might find that you want to use MS Office and it is no longer available for a Mac, but you wont be totally buggered if this is the case since you can still share files with perfect conversations, instead it just means you will have to use a different app which maybe isn't so good but gets the same results.

SiliconAddict
Jan 5, 2007, 04:11 PM
I never heard that Microsoft was going to quit making an OS X verions of Office. I have a hunch they are going to wait to upgrade it so the Vista version looks more and functions more like the mac version. The UI is so clunky in windows. They aren't going to fire a bunch of guys in programming when they are clearly making money selling to the Apple users. When you think about all the things microsoft creates and loses money on, they aren't going to stop making money because they want to stick it to Steve Jobs.

I don't see them making any significant changes to MS WORD anyway. How much better can you make a memo look?



You haven't looked at Office 2007 lately have you? MS majorly revamped the UI. I hate it but don't hold your breath expecting ANOTHER UI revamp anytime soon.

http://att.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=65570&stc=1&d=1168035010

IJ Reilly
Jan 5, 2007, 04:15 PM
You haven't looked at Office 2007 lately have you? MS majorly revamped the UI. I hate it but don't hold your breath expecting ANOTHER UI revamp anytime soon.

Not enough buttons and tabs. They actually left some room for typing.

bbyrdhouse
Jan 5, 2007, 04:24 PM
I use Pages 06 on a daily basis, multiple times a day. I also have MSWord but it is a rare thing for me to use it. When iWork first came out I was so excited but was really disappointed with it. I had to force myself to use it and now it is my app of choice for so many projects. I use it for notes, letters, lite DTP and more.

I wish that you were able to set some defaults with the lists and bullets and in some other areas.

Hopefully, this will be a major update to Pages.

Keynote is very good already. One thing I would like to see is the export to FLA to be able to include transistions.

Object-X
Jan 5, 2007, 04:24 PM
That is unacceptable as a solution. It's a shame that this seems to be the only solution for an increasing number of things on the Mac. Rather than getting real OS X Cocoa apps we are having to run Windows now to get fully powered apps such as for personal finance, CAD, etc, and now for productivity (word processing, etc). What a shame :mad:

Well, you really don't have an option now do you? You can thank Microsoft for that. Micrsoft loves to force you to buy over priced outdated software. Be grateful you can run Parallels to do more advanced work, since the OS X version sucks.

You should also be grateful that Apple is subtly, but forcefully, putting pressure on Microsoft by releasing iWork. By not attempting to make iWork a professional office suite, it gives Microsoft an incentive to keep developing Office on the Mac, but at the same time, Apple could easily take that space from them by creating a Pro version of iWork, so it's also an incentive for Microsoft to keep improving their software. I didn't really make that point in my last post, but it's another reason why I like iWork. Apple is making very intellegent business decsions that benefit their customers.

Object-X
Jan 5, 2007, 04:32 PM
i disagree M$ force u to buy while apple doesn't, 3 licenses MS Office 2004 education verion cost $114. thats <$40 a copy, that isn't expensive, and iWork isn't free neither.

I agree apple's spreadsheet doesn't need to be as powerful as M$ excel, but again, in the arena, there is a free one, open office, with cross platform support.

But yeah, apple should try, at least for the future.

I like how you price compare with educationaly priced software. The fact is that most OS X users don't qualify for that discount and if you buy and use the software without qualifying for it you are stealing. Office for OS X is between $400 - $500! It's outragously priced for what you get. So the premise of you argument is flawed. iWork is still only $70.

coolsoldier
Jan 5, 2007, 04:52 PM
I think there's no doubt in anyone's mind that Office has a lot more features than iWork. Office also costs US$321 more than iWork ($400 - 79). What people really need to be asking themselves is whether the extra features in Office are worth paying five times the price. Even if you already have a copy of Office, the price of an office upgrade is still close to three times the price of iWork.

Personally, the only thing I use in MS office that is not available in iWork is spreadsheets. Keynote is teriffic and Pages, while it doesn't do everything, does everything I need it to do (without a bunch of features I never use getting in the way). If Apple's spreadsheet can do that, they will replace office on my mac -- and save me a couple hundred dollars in the process.

clevin
Jan 5, 2007, 05:20 PM
I like how you price compare with educationaly priced software. The fact is that most OS X users don't qualify for that discount and if you buy and use the software without qualifying for it you are stealing. Office for OS X is between $400 - $500! It's outragously priced for what you get. So the premise of you argument is flawed. iWork is still only $70.

wow, i don't remember how many users have said that,
1. Im in shcool, teaching or studying, I bought education ver. legally
2. if macmall is listing it, and not asking for proof, and ppl buy it, what do you suggest?
3. it would be really interesting to see the numbers about how many ppl who own M$ office is currently in school, and how many is buying with a eduction discount (no matter they are in school or not)
4. if u wanna compare to M$ office, price is a factor, function is another one, you can't keep saying "iWork isn't designed to compete with M$ Office" while using the rhetoric of "iWork is cheaper than M$ Office".

Hairball
Jan 5, 2007, 05:27 PM
I bought my first Mac last March and at the time I purchased Office. A few months later I purchased iWork. After trying to use Pages as the first choice for word processing, when away from work, I can honestly say that Pages seriously lags behind Word. I hope Pages is severly updated to have at least half the features of Word. If it contained the basic word processing functions, then Steve and the rest of Apple could claim a success in the new version.

MacsAttack
Jan 5, 2007, 05:32 PM
Not enough buttons and tabs. They actually left some room for typing.

:D

Sometimes I think the folks at MicroSoft forget that we don't all have two 20+ inch widescreen displays hanging off the back of our machines...

clevin
Jan 5, 2007, 05:35 PM
:D

Sometimes I think the folks at MicroSoft forget that we don't all have two 20+ inch widescreen displays hanging off the back of our machines...

this is exactly same problem with IE6, its toolbar occupy way too much space.

but, I kinda feel Office 2007 would allow you to rearrange the toolbar, does it?

sushi
Jan 5, 2007, 05:40 PM
Sometimes I think the folks at MicroSoft forget that we don't all have two 20+ inch widescreen displays hanging off the back of our machines...
Yep.

My favorite word processor is still FullWrite Professional. Simple clean interface. I am not an icon fan. I prefer menus. What I really like about FullWrite Professional is that special menus appear when you need them. They show up at the end of the Menu bar so it is very easy to locate and use them.

And it was programmed in assembly language so it is fast and takes up very little space on your HD.

One thing that I do not like about MSFT Office is the difference between the Windows and Mac versions. My favorite versions of both were 97 PC and 98 Mac. They had the same interface so it was so easy to go from Mac to PC and vice versa.

Today Office is getting so bloated. But unfortunately, no other suite package can compare to features. And very few are cross platform.

I would love to see a start up that would create an office suite that would run on Mac, Windows and Linux with total file, menu/icon, and feature compatibility. And of course it could open and write Word, Excel and PowerPoint files seamlessly.

misr12
Jan 5, 2007, 06:34 PM
Nonsense! I don't know where people get this idea. I am using Pages as our every-day word processor for our business, and it is perfectly acceptable in this role already, and will only improve. Just because I'm a business user, doesn't mean I need a word processor with four zillion poorly implemented features.

I couldn't agree more. I own and run my business using Pages and it intergrates just fine in the PC world. Some the Pagees bashing are from those who want Apple to become MS. I hope we don't. Apple keep doing what you are doing. I look forward to iWork 07 and using Apples first entry into spreadsheets in quite some time.

Object-X
Jan 5, 2007, 06:36 PM
wow, i don't remember how many users have said that,
1. Im in shcool, teaching or studying, I bought education ver. legally
2. if macmall is listing it, and not asking for proof, and ppl buy it, what do you suggest?
3. it would be really interesting to see the numbers about how many ppl who own M$ office is currently in school, and how many is buying with a eduction discount (no matter they are in school or not)
4. if u wanna compare to M$ office, price is a factor, function is another one, you can't keep saying "iWork isn't designed to compete with M$ Office" while using the rhetoric of "iWork is cheaper than M$ Office".

I didn't imply you were personally using software illegally and if it came across that way I apologize. However, the licensing agreement for educationaly discounted software states you must be a full time student or teacher, and for you to make the price comparison assumes nothing is wrong for others to use this software who do not qualify; and that assumption is ethically wrong. Just because you can find a vendor that doesn't inforce this policy doesn't make it acceptable to recieve a discount for which you are not eligible for. It is this that I object too, for your whole arguments rests on an unethical premise.

As far as numbers and percentages of student/teachers, you are a minority, to suggest otherwise would be ludicrous.

I only mention iWork's price to demonstrate that it's a reasonably priced software package by comparison to Microsoft's $400-$500 package. The fact that Office offers more advanced features can not possibly justify such a huge price disparity; in addition to the fact that they haven't updated it in over 4 years just makes it worse! I have no where in my posts stated that the two products are comparable in any way other than iWork offers a more useful subset of functionality at a more reasonable price. If you actually read my posts you would see that my whole argument revolves around features vrs. price not rhetoric; Apple has priced it's software resonably with the feature set it offers, Microsoft on the other hand has not.

jonharris200
Jan 5, 2007, 06:40 PM
Keynote is very good already. One thing I would like to see is the export to FLA to be able to include transistions.
I second that entirely. Would be very cool indeed, especially if export file sizes are low.

mdriftmeyer
Jan 5, 2007, 07:33 PM
Yeah, it sure enough doesn't look like an Excel killer... not sure I like that icon either.

Oh for sure! That "icon" makes or breaks whether I use this app or that app to get my work done.

Ardchoille
Jan 5, 2007, 08:37 PM
There is some stuff I'm not allowed to talk about, and no doubt a lot I don't know as well. But one additional point is that there were rumors of a backroom deal between Steve and Bill to keep ClarisWorks/AppleWorks from becoming more competition for Office.

Bob Hearn
ClarisWorks coauthor


Many thanks for all you did with this programme. I have iWorks and keep an eye on its development, but after a short use of Pages, I went back to Appleworks.

I run a small business totally in Appleworks and find that it does (almost) everything I need. WP is just for letters, I use WP with embedded spreadsheet for billing (including automatically generating a billing number). I can include calculating tables with Pages, but it is neat and simple in AW. All business calculations are easily done in AW spreadsheet. For reports, Pages ability to automatically make "contents" is nice, but not essential.

One of my clients (a huge organization with thousands of employees) communicates by Word which I open with Pages and reply by exporting to Word. Nothing I have ever received from them requires more than is in AW. I also get information from them in Excel which I open with Word for Mac (only used under extreme need). Again, nothing that AW couldn't do.

My point is that for many, including in my business, there is no need for all that Word or Excel offers.

(I was going to name myself ProDos in remembrance of the early years, but my wife thought it might be misconstrued!)

kcmac
Jan 5, 2007, 09:18 PM
I only mention iWork's price to demonstrate that it's a reasonably priced software package by comparison to Microsoft's $400-$500 package. The fact that Office offers more advanced features can not possibly justify such a huge price disparity; in addition to the fact that they haven't updated it in over 4 years just makes it worse! I have no where in my posts stated that the two products are comparable in any way other than iWork offers a more useful subset of functionality at a more reasonable price. If you actually read my posts you would see that my whole argument revolves around features vrs. price not rhetoric; Apple has priced it's software resonably with the feature set it offers, Microsoft on the other hand has not.
No doubt iWork is reasonably priced. I use Pages the majority of the time and enjoy it although I hope to see improvements in speed, use of inspector, floating windows, etc.
Where I work, we can get MS apps such as Mac Office for $20. Most people I know that work for medium to large companies get this deal as well. It's kind of a sneaky (smart) corporate world thing that MS does. As long as I work where I work now, I can use the software. Leave and I am supposed to remove it from my computer.

All the programs in iWork in general are for beginner or basic users and were created for that purpose or demographic,
I constantly use Pages in the corporate world to FIX Word documents that have been totally destroyed and corrupted in regards to Styles and formatting. Then I convert them back into .doc or pdf format and all is good. Easy schmeezy. I know few people that can fix those things directly in Word. I gave up long ago although I do use Word a lot.

bousozoku
Jan 5, 2007, 10:12 PM
Not enough buttons and tabs. They actually left some room for typing.

They've had versions since BYTE magazine was still alive (7 years ago?) that would take up all but one line with toolbars.

Clearly, something different would be indicated. Someone complained to me the other day about the way Pages works but couldn't describe anything. The only thing I can surmise is that different is wrong.

I'm certainly glad to see that iWork is progressing. It's interesting to get beta software in a retail package but it's still inexpensive and it would be quite a bit more money for such software otherwise.

Infinity
Jan 5, 2007, 11:40 PM
right now, the whole iWork suite looks like a toy to me. anyone agree? I still prefer Microsoft Office, in terms of usability and looks (maybe it's just what I'm used to?).

I want to love iWork, I hope the '07 version convinces me enough to buy it!

I would agree that Pages is more of a toy however I doubt the same thing can be said about Keynote, give me that over Powerpoint anyday!

~Shard~
Jan 5, 2007, 11:44 PM
I would agree that Pages is more of a toy however I doubt the same thing can be said about Keynote, give me that over Powerpoint anyday!

Agreed. Pages may not play in the same space as Word, however I would argue that Keynote one-ups PowerPoint in pretty much every way and succeeds at being a legitimate alternative and direct competitor to PowerPoint. :cool:

mrkramer
Jan 6, 2007, 12:22 AM
I would love to see a start up that would create an office suite that would run on Mac, Windows and Linux with total file, menu/icon, and feature compatibility. And of course it could open and write Word, Excel and PowerPoint files seamlessly.

There is OpenOffice (http://www.openoffice.org/) or NeoOffice (http://www.neooffice.org/) I havn't used them enough to know if they have as many features as M$ Office.

SiliconAddict
Jan 6, 2007, 01:11 AM
this is exactly same problem with IE6, its toolbar occupy way too much space.

but, I kinda feel Office 2007 would allow you to rearrange the toolbar, does it?

Yah because the interface is collapsible. Something the picture doesn't convey.

aafuss1
Jan 6, 2007, 02:30 AM
I hope that Excel 2007 .xlsx format spreadsheets will be importable.

Hombre
Jan 6, 2007, 03:06 AM
2. if macmall is listing it, and not asking for proof, and ppl buy it, what do you suggest?
3. it would be really interesting to see the numbers about how many ppl who own M$ office is currently in school, and how many is buying with a eduction discount (no matter they are in school or not)


The problem is: When you don't qualify for the educational discount, you could use a pirated copy from bittorrent as well. It doesn't make a difference, legally, how you break the license agreement.

aafuss1
Jan 6, 2007, 04:17 AM
Google's Docs & Spreadsheets doesn't seem to be Safari friendly-that's why I don't use it on my Mac.

I bet the charts will be of similar quality to Keynote's.

BBC B 32k
Jan 6, 2007, 04:19 AM
Google spreadsheets and docs works fine in firefox. Also gmail works much better in firefox.

Come on google/apple give me compatability.

Goldfinger
Jan 6, 2007, 04:27 AM
No one requires you to have Office. Office is far more complex than probably 99% of people need, business users included.

More and more people are buying Macs for home because they don't want an ugly Dell running Office like they already have in their own office.

The complexity of Office is irrelevant. I AM required to have Office. I use office docs on a daily basis. I need 100% file compatibility with Word and I need Excel. Just like most people in higher education and business.

All of this will be less of an issue when Office switches to open XML document formats. But right now me and most people are indeed required to use Office. There are no serious alternatives that are 100% compatible. It's all about being 100% compatible with just about everybody else.

Machead III
Jan 6, 2007, 05:08 AM
Many thanks for all you did with this programme. I have iWorks and keep an eye on its development, but after a short use of Pages, I went back to Appleworks.

I run a small business totally in Appleworks and find that it does (almost) everything I need. WP is just for letters, I use WP with embedded spreadsheet for billing (including automatically generating a billing number). I can include calculating tables with Pages, but it is neat and simple in AW. All business calculations are easily done in AW spreadsheet. For reports, Pages ability to automatically make "contents" is nice, but not essential.

One of my clients (a huge organization with thousands of employees) communicates by Word which I open with Pages and reply by exporting to Word. Nothing I have ever received from them requires more than is in AW. I also get information from them in Excel which I open with Word for Mac (only used under extreme need). Again, nothing that AW couldn't do.

My point is that for many, including in my business, there is no need for all that Word or Excel offers.

(I was going to name myself ProDos in remembrance of the early years, but my wife thought it might be misconstrued!)

I actually thought AW was excellent, and used it right up until Apple made it pretty much impossible to. Continued R&D could have turned AW into the 100% Office alternative.

devman
Jan 6, 2007, 05:25 AM
The complexity of Office is irrelevant. I AM required to have Office. I use office docs on a daily basis. I need 100% file compatibility with Word and I need Excel. Just like most people in higher education and business.

All of this will be less of an issue when Office switches to open XML document formats.

You are seriously mistaken there. MS OpenXML (a most horrific misnomer if ever there was one) is a 6000+ page spec that only one company can implement. Try this for starters http://www.robweir.com/blog/2006/01/how-to-hire-guillaume-portes.html and then this attrocity http://www.robweir.com/blog/2006/10/bit-about-bit-with-bits.html

clevin
Jan 6, 2007, 07:00 AM
I only mention iWork's price to demonstrate that it's a reasonably priced software package by comparison to Microsoft's $400-$500 package. The fact that Office offers more advanced features can not possibly justify such a huge price disparity;

this is exactly what makes me feel weird, u are perfectly happy to compare price with M$, while definitely not want to compare their function.
you think $400~$500 can't be justified, how about Adobe Creative Suite? PPC version, cost $1200. You only use 5% of office's function doesn't mean its other functions don't deserve more money.

Goldfinger
Jan 6, 2007, 07:01 AM
You are seriously mistaken there. MS OpenXML (a most horrific misnomer if ever there was one) is a 6000+ page spec that only one company can implement. Try this for starters http://www.robweir.com/blog/2006/01/how-to-hire-guillaume-portes.html and then this attrocity http://www.robweir.com/blog/2006/10/bit-about-bit-with-bits.html

Ah, didn't know that. This makes things even worse I guess :mad:

Machead III
Jan 6, 2007, 08:10 AM
I can't believe how attrocious it is M$ isn't adopting OpenDocument XML. Pages better use OpenDocument as standard!!!

When will the bigs corps get it? Universal standard = better for everyone.

cheunghy
Jan 6, 2007, 09:03 AM
Microsoft doesn't adopt the OpenDocument standard because... (I think)
Microsoft Office has a long history, and up to now, it has a very large user base. If they are going to use an universal standard, current users may switch to other alternatives. To keep its industry-leading market share, a unique file format is one of simplest solutions, so that users will stick with MS Office.

projectle
Jan 6, 2007, 09:31 AM
They are using a "universal standard".
If everyone is forced to upgrade from Office 2003, XP and 2000 because of the new "security vulnerabilities" that are being "found" on a "daily" "basis", and a new format is the default, where if you write a new document it automatically becomes *.docx or when you open, change and press save, it gets "upgraded" to *.docx, then it becomes "the universal standard" because everyone in the universe has been made to use it.

All governmental organizations will be using MSOOXML because they will upgrade to the latest versions to ensure that they are not suseptable to unpatched security vulnerabilities from previous versions.

All companies that deal with the government will upgrade to read the documents and submit them back in the "expected" format.

Think FCC, where they do a ton of stuff in Excel using nested tables, VB and Macros, things that have never worked in OpenOffice (Nested Tables are the real complaint that I have because it prevents reading the documents).

eladekralc
Jan 6, 2007, 10:16 AM
http://www.x-tables.eu/more/overview.html

This is more like the screenshot than Mesa and is pretty good to use, do not know where it will stand when Iworks 07 is released though.

I use pages all the time and do all sorts of Flyers and books using it, I find it quicker and more enjoyable. Looking forward to some extra's especially the ability to comment on images and charts etc as well as text...:)

MacsAttack
Jan 6, 2007, 10:59 AM
this is exactly what makes me feel weird, u are perfectly happy to compare price with M$, while definitely not want to compare their function.
you think $400~$500 can't be justified, how about Adobe Creative Suite? PPC version, cost $1200. You only use 5% of office's function doesn't mean its other functions don't deserve more money.

Poor comparison there... If psd or ai were the de-facto standards for exchanging vector or bitmap graphics you could have a point. But the sandard for image exchange is jpg, gif, and eps - all of which can be manipulated with a wide range of software of varying prices and capabilities...

If MS Works (now there is an oxymoron for you) were file-compatible with office (and available on a range of platforms), then nobody would be complaining about over-priced software and illegal monopolistic marketing practices. The only component in an of the shelf Wintel PC that has increased in price over the last two decades has been the operating system. Think about it...

clevin
Jan 6, 2007, 11:56 AM
Poor comparison there... If psd or ai were the de-facto standards for exchanging vector or bitmap graphics you could have a point. But the sandard for image exchange is jpg, gif, and eps - all of which can be manipulated with a wide range of software of varying prices and capabilities...

If MS Works (now there is an oxymoron for you) were file-compatible with office (and available on a range of platforms), then nobody would be complaining about over-priced software and illegal monopolistic marketing practices. The only component in an of the shelf Wintel PC that has increased in price over the last two decades has been the operating system. Think about it...
lol, my comparison maybe isn't as accurate as u want, but how about the comparison I mentioned that somebody kept using? do u agree with those comparisons? i.e. do u think iWork should be compared with MS Office in functions if they are to be compared in price?

Im not arguing about the bad about monoplay and copyright software, Im just making a simple point, if u think iWork isn't competing with MS Office, then stop comparing price.

Also, I don't understand where your "standard issue" comes from, there is no standard of process of doing something (so called functionalities), if u want to make a chart, diagram, plot, its not excel is standard, its that excel can do it, while others can't.

rifepe
Jan 6, 2007, 12:03 PM
Every PC I've bought came with windows and the office/ms works suite.

Thats not to say you don't have a point.



Sorry, but I disagree. Having grown up using office for school work etc, iWork doesn't cut the mustard. Don't get me wrong, pages is nice and keynote is definitely better than the current powerpoint, but as a package office is plain better.

Having grown up don´t using MS office for school work etc, MS Office doesn't cut the mustard :p .Don´t get me wrong, word specially the first versions in mac are nice but as a exange format is dreadfull, and excel couldn't make a decent scientific graph even if all the MS income was bet on it and powerpoint is a pain in the butt.

if you has tasted better things for your needs and you are forced to use MS office because is the only program of this kind that accounting would accept, they already paid for it in a volume licence. :mad:

clevin
Jan 6, 2007, 12:06 PM
Having grown up don´t using MS office for school work etc, MS Office doesn't cut the mustard :p .Don´t get me wrong, word specially the first versions in mac are nice but as a exange format is dreadfull, and excel couldn't make a decent scientific graph even if all the MS income was bet on it and powerpoint is a pain in the butt.
if you has tasted better things for your needs and you are forced to use MS office because is the only program of this kind that accounting would accept, they already paid for it in a volume licence. :mad:

so what are u using for scientific graph? mathematics? matlab? origin?

rifepe
Jan 6, 2007, 12:25 PM
so what are u using for scientific graph? mathematics? matlab? origin?

Kaleidagraph

clevin
Jan 6, 2007, 12:59 PM
Kaleidagraph

oh yeah, I hope origin had a mac version, its very good, at least as good as this one u are using.

yes, I have to say, the function plotting in excel is painful, u can't just input a equation and expect a curve. but still, it can do most of the data plotting and simple analysis such as regression equation, extrapolation etc.

and to be honest, the software u listed, as well as origin, are beyond the market majority, mostly they are only used by professionals.

Dr.Gargoyle
Jan 6, 2007, 06:45 PM
...but still, it can do most of the data plotting and simple analysis such as regression equation, extrapolation etc.
Why dont you try Maple, Gauss, or Mathematica just to name a few?

rifepe
Jan 7, 2007, 04:16 AM
oh yeah, I hope origin had a mac version, its very good, at least as good as this one u are using.

yes, I have to say, the function plotting in excel is painful, u can't just input a equation and expect a curve. but still, it can do most of the data plotting and simple analysis such as regression equation, extrapolation etc.

and to be honest, the software u listed, as well as origin, are beyond the market majority, mostly they are only used by professionals.

The only reason most of the people can afford excel is due to volume licenses.
if everybody would have to pay 500$ that office cost none would use it. That is another problem in volume would not be much differences in price but the company has already buy excel so is "free" so using the right tool became specially difficult.

I don't find excel good in anything just barelly good enough for a lot of thing and with training easilly available.

ppnkg
Jan 7, 2007, 08:09 AM
As a personal example, the first things I do on a new Windows computer are change the look back to classic, change the start menu, change the control panel, change the way folders are displayed, turn off any auto-format or auto-correct in programs, remove toolbars, remove icons, and on and on.

Funny.... this is exactly what I do too, and mostly in that order!

jcrowe
Jan 7, 2007, 04:00 PM
You bring up a very good point. Word is terrible at page layout. Publisher is just plain terrible. Yes, Pages does blow the pants of of publisher for page layout. And now that I come to think of it, that is most of what I use Pages for. I never thought of it that way before, but Pages is an excellent Publisher competitor.

But here is one case where I hope Apple doesn't release a separate word-processing product to compete with Word. They should instead upgrade Pages capability to better compete with the more salient features of Word. Hopefully they can do so without losing the simplicity that their product shows now.

I'd like to look back at ClarisWorks and AppleWorks and see what can be salvaged conceptually from them and add OpenDoc (not OpenDocument) type features to compete with Office and OLE. The *Works programs had wordprocessing, database, spreadsheet, drawing, painting and presentation. OpenDoc had the concept of container docs that could contain elements from any combination of modules, with the dynamic content changing with underlying element editting. I do see shades of this in Apple products. For me Pages remains like a layout program that needs a more efficient text-entry module. For me Word grew from acceptable as a real document processing system in the late 80s/early 90s to a bloated, non-functional mess by the late 90s and onward. I had to use it extensively for technical documentation after being forced away from Framemaker. Pages could compete with something better than Word, IMO. It's already conceptually based on a more coherent framework. As far as competing with Excel, it's doable, but one has to wonder whether it's worth the effort. Excel is really by far the most useful component of Office, but it's only a spreadsheet after all. One must assign a value to development costs of a spreadsheet vs. value to installed base. Apple could implement a fairly simple set of spreadsheet functionality and address the majority of its target market. For me, I'll probably upgrade iWork when the new version appears. It's a pretty inexpensive way to get decent functionality. I personally cannot justify regular price for Office....to me it's fairly flawed software and overly expensive to boot. As always, YMMV....

DavoMrMac
Jan 8, 2007, 11:34 AM
I used iWork when it was first released, but didn't stick with it. I suppose I was so used to Word and Quark and had no need for Pages.

I then tried iWork 06, saw the improvements, but again didn't stay with it.

If a spreadsheet application appears, then I will again give it a try. I use Excel quite a bit and if the new Apple offering were to offer Excel compatibility I would defo be there. :D

rt_brained
Jan 8, 2007, 12:03 PM
I just bought a version at the 99¢ store...and it only works on Windoze.

IJ Reilly
Jan 8, 2007, 12:08 PM
I'd like to look back at ClarisWorks and AppleWorks and see what can be salvaged conceptually from them and add OpenDoc (not OpenDocument) type features to compete with Office and OLE. The *Works programs had wordprocessing, database, spreadsheet, drawing, painting and presentation. OpenDoc had the concept of container docs that could contain elements from any combination of modules, with the dynamic content changing with underlying element editting. I do see shades of this in Apple products. For me Pages remains like a layout program that needs a more efficient text-entry module. For me Word grew from acceptable as a real document processing system in the late 80s/early 90s to a bloated, non-functional mess by the late 90s and onward. I had to use it extensively for technical documentation after being forced away from Framemaker. Pages could compete with something better than Word, IMO. It's already conceptually based on a more coherent framework. As far as competing with Excel, it's doable, but one has to wonder whether it's worth the effort. Excel is really by far the most useful component of Office, but it's only a spreadsheet after all. One must assign a value to development costs of a spreadsheet vs. value to installed base. Apple could implement a fairly simple set of spreadsheet functionality and address the majority of its target market. For me, I'll probably upgrade iWork when the new version appears. It's a pretty inexpensive way to get decent functionality. I personally cannot justify regular price for Office....to me it's fairly flawed software and overly expensive to boot. As always, YMMV....

A nice critique.

OpenDoc was an incredible concept. Someday, I'd like to know the real reason why Apple abandoned it.

As for Pages, Apple could borrow a page from PageMaker (so to speak), which opens a text-only editing window when double-clicking on a text block. If implemented properly (which I don't think it was in PageMaker), it could get around the complaint that Pages behaves more like a page layout application than a word processor. (Though I think this is far more perception than reality.)

Mammoth
Jan 8, 2007, 04:01 PM
iWork is the replacement for AppleWorks. It's not there yet, but hopefully '07 will be.

So we could see a replacement for MacPaint or whatever program it was? :D

chrisrb
Jan 11, 2007, 11:43 AM
Why doesn't Apple just buy Adobe?

Seems to me that if Apple owned PhotoShop that this would effectively prevent for all time the chance that Microsoft might threaten to stop developing Office for Mac. Apple could simply counter by threatening to stop developing PhotoShop for Windows.

By buying Adobe, Apple would own the creative side of computing, while Microsoft would own the business side. Each needs the other to survive.

Perfect parity.

Permanent symbiosis.

Spaceman Spiff
Jan 14, 2007, 07:33 PM
Why doesn't Apple just buy Adobe?


Why don't you buy Adobe?

What? Can't afford it you say? Too expensive?

Ditto for Apple. No way could they take over Adobe. And the negative response to such a buyout would be enormous. I don't think Apple would ever consider such a thing.

mkrishnan
Jan 15, 2007, 02:13 PM
What? Can't afford it you say? Too expensive?

Adobe's current market cap actually seems fairly svelte. Not that I think there would be any value in Apple buying them. God, no. :o