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MacRumors
Jan 11, 2007, 03:09 AM
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TreoCentral posted (http://www.treocentral.com/content/Stories/1047-1.htm) an excellent analysis of the Apple iPhone from the Palm and Smartphone market perspective. It addresses issues that have been long-standing in the smartphone world, including on-screen keyboards and battery life issues.

One interesting aspect is the lack of a removable battery in the iPhone. While this has worked for them in the iPod marketplace, the author suggests that Palm's experience has been one where users demand a removable battery. Certainly, the tradeoff provides a much slimmer form factor for the iPhone.

No other slim phone has every gotten good battery life. That is the tradeoff for slimness, and one of the primary reasons the Treo is so thick. While Apple's engineering is incredible, it seems hard to believe that they have solved this one industry-wide problem in a device that looks more power-hungry then any other.

Also pointed out, however, are the relatively vague battery life numbers provided, though, to be fair, the product remains 5 months from shipping.

The article (http://www.treocentral.com/content/Stories/1047-1.htm) also addresses on-screen keyboards, user interface, lack of 3G, non-open platform and more.

A Palm VP was quoted in terms of marketing against the iPhone in the coming months:

"How do you compete with vaporware? You sell the product that only costs half as much, and is available now. Palm's not going to try to market against product that they haven't seen yet."

Indeed, Palm CEO (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/11/20061122021457.shtml) had suggested that Apple would have difficulties in entering the phone market after Palm had "learned and struggled for a few years here figuring out how to make a decent phone".



DMann
Jan 11, 2007, 03:13 AM
Here we go

iJawn108
Jan 11, 2007, 03:14 AM
Ahh so I was right with my no battery thoughts. I hoping this might be the first iPod device with an interchangable battery. :(

DMann
Jan 11, 2007, 03:15 AM
Here we go

First round -- EDGE.

After first takers, 3G offered wih rev b
for incentive to upgrade.....

DMann
Jan 11, 2007, 03:18 AM
Ahh so I was right with my no battery thoughts. I hoping this might be the first iPod device with an interchangable battery. :(

with such an elegant enclosure, a battery swapping chute
or trap door would perhaps compromise the overall sleekness.
Perhaps solar panels integrated into the screen will be
implemented before June:rolleyes:

Willis
Jan 11, 2007, 03:21 AM
Jobs clearly said that they're making 3G phones in the future along with other bits of com technology.

He should of watched the keynote :rolleyes:

mattalici
Jan 11, 2007, 03:24 AM
oooooh, bitter

jmsait19
Jan 11, 2007, 03:24 AM
i think the phone ships 3G... no way it stays edge... they just didn't want to announce it without knowing it could be completely implemented in the phone yet (kind of like the 3GHZ in one year thing)... of course i may just be making that up...

about the treocentral article... i read about half of it but then i had to go throw up...

After G
Jan 11, 2007, 03:27 AM
I don't know ... 3G seems redundant with Wi-Fi.

I can't imagine where I'd be out in the middle of nowhere and then bam, have to surf the net or check email at 700 kbps.

I would do Wi-Fi if I wanted fast. 6mbit down on my cable Internet connection, and I wouldn't pay EDGE/3G fees. That's just me though. I guess it would be useful for email, but then EDGE would be enough for that ...

I was hoping iPhone would do 802.11n ... maybe it'll come with 3G in the next upgrade :)

Is 3G backwards compatible? They might have done EDGE because it was more ubiquitous.

GodBless
Jan 11, 2007, 03:28 AM
with such an elegant enclosure, a battery swapping chute
or trap door would perhaps compromise the overall sleekness.
Perhaps solar panels integrated into the screen will be
implemented before June:rolleyes:Although you mentioned it sarcastically, I think solar implementation is a fabulous idea for Apple to experiment with. Jonathan Ive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Ive)'s team could totally revolutionize the way solar is efficiently used.

jmsait19
Jan 11, 2007, 03:31 AM
I don't know ... 3G seems redundant with Wi-Fi.

I can't imagine where I'd be out in the middle of nowhere and then bam, have to surf the net or check email at 700 kbps.

I would do Wi-Fi if I wanted fast. 6mbit down on my cable Internet connection, and I wouldn't pay EGDE/3G fees. That's just me though. I guess it would be useful for email, but then EDGE would be enough for that ...

I was hoping iPhone would do 802.11n ... maybe it'll come with 3G in the next upgrade :)

Is 3G backwards compatible? They might have done EDGE because it was more ubiquitous.

there are lots of places where i get phone service but not wifi access... this would be the advantage of having 3G also... it would have a good range and if i'm driving down the road I don't have to authenticate with 10 different wireless routers just to load 1 page... i'd say that its a range thing... but if you are in a wifi hotspot the wifi would be the choice method.

EDIT: by driving down the road i mean riding in a vehicle while someone else drives... cause i'd be the first person to get all upset over someone surfing the web and driving at the same.... swervin' all over the place... i can see it now... buckle up everyone...

Abstract
Jan 11, 2007, 03:51 AM
oooooh, bitter

But he does make a good analysis. Apple can use the tech that's out there, and Apple didn't just invent superior batteries that can be super small in size, and give you decent battery life. The battery life numbers SJ told us sounds like he's hoping for a miracle in the battery world for that to happen. Otherwise, it'll be like the 15" PB when it came out, with it's amazing 4.5 hour battery life (that lasted 2 hours).

mattalici
Jan 11, 2007, 03:57 AM
I have a 3G phone here in Berlin, Germany, where arguably, the people here use SMS and ringtones and games in a much bigger way than they do in the states. (Mtv here is basically the Ringtone Channel.) So I can download video. Woop dee doo. At first, this was cool, it was before video iPod. But three things keep me from DLing more:

1. The shiza is expensive to buy.

2. The shiza is really expensive to download.

3. There's no real good shiza worth forking over the cash for. (I HAVE to see the new Lupe Fiasco video 500 times. On my cel phone. Right.)

Apple not using 3G is smart because, just sync up what ever media you want from your computer, and you should be able to store enough to GET YOU THROUGH YOUR COMMUTE. These guys talking about no 3G was hilarious. It just goes to show how crappy their relationships are with the carriers.

What a horrible business. Please Apple, introduce some civility and downright class into the telecommunications industry. These poor guys are retarted with frustration.

GodBless
Jan 11, 2007, 03:59 AM
Solar isn't the only Apple could do for a non-charge power solution. Apple could include an RF energy conversion feature using a similar solution to Powercast's (a review of their amazing RF receiver is here (http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-12760_7-9673092-5.html?tag=txt)). If worse comes to worse then they could license Powercast's solution from them (however I think Apple would probably buy Powercast first knowing how much they hate licenses from the iPhone patent incident).

After G
Jan 11, 2007, 04:05 AM
there are lots of places where i get phone service but not wifi access... this would be the advantage of having 3G also... it would have a good range and if i'm driving down the road I don't have to authenticate with 10 different wireless routers just to load 1 page... i'd say that its a range thing... but if you are in a wifi hotspot the wifi would be the choice method.

EDIT: by driving down the road i mean riding in a vehicle while someone else drives... cause i'd be the first person to get all upset over someone surfing the web and driving at the same.... swervin' all over the place... i can see it now... buckle up everyone...If you drove and looked at MR at the same time ... get your priorities straight. Macrumors first! :D

I was thinking EDGE would primarily be for e-mail, maybe IM. You know, quick communications.

It'd be like Apple putting 802.11n in all the Intel Macs just because they could, without having a deployment strategy (the new Airport) in mind.

If 3G is backwards compatible, I would have done it.
If it's not, it wouldn't be a good idea for Apple to put a technology with limited deployment into a production device.

Maybe it's a battery life thing as well. Who knows?

Stiivi
Jan 11, 2007, 04:06 AM
What about SIM card? I do not see any ways of putting it in the phone. Is the iPhone going to be US-only device? Here in Europe each phone uses a SIM card from a service provider... Does anyone know more information on that?

christian_k
Jan 11, 2007, 04:22 AM
No !
WiFi doesn't make 3G redundant.

I live in Germany and the situation is like this:

- WLAN is common for use at home. I have my WLAN at home using a 4 mbit DSL line. So surfing at home with the iPhone wohld be fun, but the iMac still has a larger screen.
But on the go, WLAN is nearly useless. In the town where I live I do not know any WLAN I can access and I relally walked around a lot with a MacBook. Some hotels etc. do have public WLANs, but they are often quite expensive (often more expensive than 3G service) and they are very insecure (no encryption), sometimes you even have to enter credit card info via unencrypted WLAN.

- UMTS (3G) is now widely available. Even in the small Town where I live it is available nearly everywhere. Surfing with the MacBook (using a SonyEriccson 3G mobile) is not as fun as DSL, but it is very useable. The Operators even started to upgrade to HSDPA (1.8 MBit/s+).
I also is afordable now, there is an "unlimited" pricing plan (data+phone calls) for 50 Eur/month. But I could not use that with the iPhone.

- EDGE is virtualy non existant. Only T-Mobile has some EDGE, but only in a few places. The other operators do not offer it at all. I think they prefer to invest the money in 3G.

- GSM/GPRS is available nearly everywhere. So I could check the mail with the iPhone. But it is limited to 56 kbit/s and has very high latency, so even things like pop3 or icq are slower than on old modem connections. Surfing the web with this is horrible.

Now understand why 3G is important?

Christian


I don't know ... 3G seems redundant with Wi-Fi.

I can't imagine where I'd be out in the middle of nowhere and then bam, have to surf the net or check email at 700 kbps.

I would do Wi-Fi if I wanted fast. 6mbit down on my cable Internet connection, and I wouldn't pay EGDE/3G fees. That's just me though. I guess it would be useful for email, but then EDGE would be enough for that ...

I was hoping iPhone would do 802.11n ... maybe it'll come with 3G in the next upgrade :)

Is 3G backwards compatible? They might have done EDGE because it was more ubiquitous.

SiliconAddict
Jan 11, 2007, 04:23 AM
Palm has several things still going for it still. The biggest being 3rd party app support. This is something that Apple really does need to push over the next year. If they don't all we have here is an expensive, closed smart phone.
However as I said before I'm not overly concerned right now since there is almost half a year until the *Phone comes out. In typical Apple fashion they are taking things slow and steady. Nothing wrong with that approach. It just drives some people insane in a world of I WANT IT NOW! NOW NOW NOW!

emotion
Jan 11, 2007, 04:23 AM
If Apple pull this off this will finish off Palm won't it?

CrackedButter
Jan 11, 2007, 04:25 AM
Jobs clearly said that they're making 3G phones in the future along with other bits of com technology.

He should of watched the keynote :rolleyes:

It is really amazing how many people online are bitching about the lack of 3G when Steve himself mentioned it in the Keynote. I could understand if it was only mentioned on a web page on Apple's site, but Steve said it himself and people are still griping about the lack of it!

The product is not even out so the point is irrelevant anyway!

Steve hinted at a lot of things in that keynote and all people can do is bitch, personally I'm amazed and just sat back since the Keynote and not commented online anywhere. I'm doing so now because it seems somebody else did watch it with me.

I've seen some posts on engadget for example state the phone is already out of date... and CNET reviewers gave it a 7.1 score somehow... whatever.

I'm not talking like a Fanboi here either, this product and the multi-touch technology is amazing and the fact Apple changed its' name would in my opinion reflect their new attitude to the world of electronics and open them up to do more than just computers... which they are doing. I also doubt they are keeping Multi-touch to the phone as well... you're going to want that one on as many devices as possible.

MhzDoesMatter
Jan 11, 2007, 04:26 AM
Yes, there is a slot for the sim card.

irmongoose
Jan 11, 2007, 04:28 AM
I think yesterday I put in 7 hours on my Treo covering macworld. 3 hours as a modem, 1 hour browsing the web, and 3 hours on the phone. Oh, and 143 text messages.

This is definitely not the market Apple is aiming for. Seven hours... on a phone... 143 texts... crazy.



irmongoose

daneoni
Jan 11, 2007, 04:28 AM
Somewhat true, the iPhone is still lacking although its a solid competitor i dont see it replacing my treo but rather partnering with it. There is no removable battery, no Office suite editing support, no memory expansion support (which i guess is a marketing ploy to get people to keep upgrading to higher capacity versions). Also what about apps?

The iPhone is an amazing product but i dont see myself getting the first gen unless i have spare cash lying around. The treo is still more productive for me.

Also lets be fair the iPhone copied/borrowed stuff from Palm such as the ringer/silent switch function, threaded SMS, the famous home button/home screen, phone app etc but thats ok they took the good stuff and improved on them so im not complaining.

matticus008
Jan 11, 2007, 04:32 AM
What about SIM card? I do not see any ways of putting it in the phone.
Cingular also uses SIM cards, and the iPhone will be made available in other countries using GSM. As such, there has to be some way of inserting and swapping the cards, but it's not clear how, exactly. (EDIT: as has been mentioned by others and can be seen in the keynote, there is a slot on top of the iPhone.)

I was hoping iPhone would do 802.11n ... maybe it'll come with 3G in the next upgrade :)

Is 3G backwards compatible? They might have done EDGE because it was more ubiquitous.
802.11n is too fast and too demanding for the hardware in current PDA/smartphone class devices. It also won't speed up Internet access in any meaningful way, and given that virtually no one has an n-capable router, even home use would be irrelevant. I have yet to see a single "palmtop" device make full use of even 802.11g.

As for 3G, Cingular doesn't have a 3G network worth a crap, so there's no rush to get it in the device. The United States just barely got EDGE implemented, so I wouldn't hold my breath for tens of billions of dollars in new spending, especially since the industry is already talking about 4G. Our broadband access sucks in general, be it DSL/cable or cellular in nature.

emotion
Jan 11, 2007, 04:32 AM
Also what about apps?


Don't you think the iPhone (from what we've seen) looks like an ideal platform for dashboard style widgets?

They are really easy to write yourself. We just need to wait to see if Apple will allow this but I don't know why people think Apple will lock this down to 1st party apps. It seems like an ideal platform for 3rd party stuff.

CrackedButter
Jan 11, 2007, 04:34 AM
Palm has several things still going for it still. The biggest being 3rd party app support. This is something that Apple really does need to push over the next year. If they don't all we have here is an expensive, closed smart phone.
However as I said before I'm not overly concerned right now since there is almost half a year until the *Phone comes out. In typical Apple fashion they are taking things slow and steady. Nothing wrong with that approach. It just drives some people insane in a world of I WANT IT NOW! NOW NOW NOW!

I personally think the people in the linked article are short shighted, I don't think they know what Vapourware is and its unlikely Palm is going to catch up in 6 months. It will have to remove all its buttons at least to get anywhere on the right road, how much Q and A testing does that take?

iPhone is going to overtake Palm like a gale force blowing over a daffodil. I want one and I told my PC friend last night and my room mate and they watched the demo... they are both getting one as well and we both do not have smart phones to begin with, Palm has never had our business so they are clearly doing something wrong.

Those two guys are still debating usability between the iPhone and a Treo... lame.

matticus008
Jan 11, 2007, 04:35 AM
Now understand why 3G is important?
It's utterly irrelevant in the launch market. It will be added later, as mentioned in the keynote, and undoubtedly before any international launch.

mdntcallr
Jan 11, 2007, 04:38 AM
I agree, I have a palm right now.

Unless Apple has within it's design removable/replaceable batteries. This power hungry device won't be right for me, a power user who frequently needs to swap out an empty battery for a full one.

also, i really want cingular hdspa standard for broadband anywhere. NOT Edge which is terminally slow.

dernhelm
Jan 11, 2007, 04:40 AM
I dunno, this vaporware clearly has them beat. Even Jobs knew that or he would never have announced it 6 months in advance. It seems to me this could make a severe dent in the Cingular smart-phone customer base (of people who want/could afford a $500 phone), and maybe draw a few of those big spenders over to Cingular from somewhere else.

However, Palm is not in any real trouble until Apple can market this phone to all providers. So they've got 2.5 year notice and a bunch of patents to overcome. Palm is far from through, but in typical Apple fashion they've skipped the "learning curve" part, and produced a phone head and shoulders above anything Palm has to offer from a usability standpoint.

Except for missing MS Office compatibility, and possibly a few other nits, there is very little Palm can use a leverage to promote their phones over this one. And since this phone can run OS/X, I wonder how hard it would be to port something like open office over to it? It wouldn't surprise me if in 6 mos time Apple announces an XCode plugin toolkit (free to the open source community even) for developing smartphone applications. Once that happens, Office compatibility will be solved at no cost to Apple.

sishaw
Jan 11, 2007, 04:47 AM
If it is true, though, that the battery is not easily user-replaceable on the fly, that aspect may be a "learning experience" for Apple. It's one thing to be without an iPod for a few days while the battery is replaced, but a cell phone is different. People rely on them, and the broader cell phone market, which is what Apple is aiming for, is not going to accept it. I would hope that somehow they've made battery replacement easier, even just to the extent of making the case easier to open.

I'm a huge iPhone supporter, by the way. I think the multi-touch screen and the "convergence" as people call it of web, computing, media, and phone functions is the best realized yet, by far. But I did recently learn how difficult battery replacement is with my old 4G iPod.

Carniphage
Jan 11, 2007, 04:50 AM
It's utterly irrelevant in the launch market. It will be added later, as mentioned in the keynote, and undoubtedly before any international launch.

There are a ton of features that the iPhone can clearly do - which will not be announced at launch.

Skype-style voice-over-ip-via-WiFi will not be included because it would piss-off Cingular. I suspect that user installable content is currently blocked for the same reason. Someone might find a way of getting them new fangled free phone calls. Cingular want people paying for calls even if they are at home.

The iPhone is being compromised with the tie-up with a mobile carrier. But currently Apple have no choice. Their hands are tied, they had to go with one carrier.

But this will change. The European launch will compel Apple to offer an unlocked handset - and possibly 3G at launch. The Asian market will change the game again. And at some point the exclusivity deal with Cingular will end.

If production costs have fallen by that point - Apple might then be bold enough to offer a $599 handset unlocked. This unshackled handset could be equipped with VOIP, 3rd party software and become a much more convincing new platform.

But of course Apple cannot say that is going to happen. 'cos it would piss-off Cingular.

C.

matticus008
Jan 11, 2007, 05:00 AM
Skype-style voice-over-ip-via-WiFi will not be included because it would piss-off Cingular. I suspect that user installable content is currently blocked for the same reason. Someone might find a way of getting them new fangled free phone calls. Cingular want people paying for calls even if they are at home.
I have Skype installed on my current smartphone, and it didn't require anyone's permission or any strange hacking. There are also hundreds of (usually crappy) applications which I can install at will. Unlike standard cell phones, smartphones have never been locked down to the extent you suggest. They're too expensive, and professionals simply won't stand for it, especially given the monthly cash piles we send them.

If there is any actual restriction on installing 3rd-party software, it's completely Apple's doing. The statement might simply reflect the lack of a proper coding environment to write for it--something which relies on Leopard.

mymacluvsme
Jan 11, 2007, 05:15 AM
What about SIM card? I do not see any ways of putting it in the phone. Is the iPhone going to be US-only device? Here in Europe each phone uses a SIM card from a service provider... Does anyone know more information on that?

Cingular also uses SIM cards, and the iPhone will be made available in other countries using GSM. As such, there has to be some way of inserting and swapping the cards, but it's not clear how, exactly.


In the keynote Steve said there is a door for inserting a SIM, it's next to the headphone jack on the top.

entropys
Jan 11, 2007, 05:22 AM
Palm VP was quoted in terms of marketing against the iPhone in the coming months:

Quote:
"How do you compete with vaporware? You sell the product that only costs half as much, and is available now. Palm's not going to try to market against product that they haven't seen yet."

Ok, So this guy is messing his strides over the iPhone mini that will no doubt make its debut around September/OCtober, in time for the Christmas market.

tny
Jan 11, 2007, 05:59 AM
I personally think the people in the linked article are short shighted, I don't think they know what Vapourware is and its unlikely Palm is going to catch up in 6 months.

Palm don't know what vaporware is? I'm guessing you think Cobalt is just a slot on the periodic table ;-)

Nym
Jan 11, 2007, 06:02 AM
Cingular also uses SIM cards, and the iPhone will be made available in other countries using GSM. As such, there has to be some way of inserting and swapping the cards, but it's not clear how, exactly.

The iPhone has a sim card slot on the top from what I can remember from the keynote.

GregA
Jan 11, 2007, 06:16 AM
The iPhone has a sim card slot on the top from what I can remember from the keynote.

Is it possible to have an external battery that connects to the bottom of the iPhone for long days? I know it'd be far lamer than changing the battery, just wondering.

Otherwise the market for car chargers and secondary chargers (home + work) will be huge.

edit: okay, found a few external batteries, all quite large (eg half size of regular iPod). The redeeming feature is that it'll charge your iPod while connected, so you don't have to necessarily USE it with the external battery. Ah well.

csimmons
Jan 11, 2007, 06:25 AM
I watched a news program on German TV last night where a tech mag writer (from the German mag Connect) was not impressed by the iPhone because "Nokia and Sony Ericsson smartphones already have all the same features the iPhone has". Many of these critics still don't understand that the iPhone isn't about the features per se, but the implementation. It will be by far the easiest to use smartphone on the market.

This mindset is exactly why the iPhone will be a hit, despite it's perceived high price and the growing FUD campaign against.

Microsoft has just been technologically b*tch-slapped. Again.:D

GregA
Jan 11, 2007, 06:32 AM
So how does the "visual voicemail" work?

I'm hoping Apple has made Cingular send the voicemails to the phone, as Multimedia Messages. At least that uses existing technology - so would be far easier for other carriers around the world to design.

Will Palm be able to do a similar multimedia message design? Hell... all they REALLY need to do is use a system that attaches the voicemail to an email that goes to your phone. At least that integrates voicemail and email!

Stella
Jan 11, 2007, 06:35 AM
Its new - Cingular had to specifically develop it for Apple. Other networks will have to follow suite if visual voice mails are to work with iPhone.

Its a new protocol.

So how does the "visual voicemail" work?

I'm hoping Apple has made Cingular send the voicemails to the phone, as Multimedia Messages. At least that uses existing technology - so would be far easier for other carriers around the world to design.

Will Palm be able to do a similar multimedia message design? Hell... all they REALLY need to do is use a system that attaches the voicemail to an email that goes to your phone. At least that integrates voicemail and email!

Rychiar
Jan 11, 2007, 06:38 AM
is there a vibrate feature on this or is it just ringtones? cus that would be annoying. I've only ever used vibrate on my phones:confused:

jwa276
Jan 11, 2007, 06:48 AM
I've had multiple palm devices from the Palm IIIxe to the more recent Palm T|X. I have recently switched to the HP iPaq hx2495 because my T|X battery simply up and died.

Granted, these are not smartphones- but I have learned both the Palm OS & Windows Mobile extensively. I truly believe that Palm is just seeing this as a last chance scenario, since the iPhone has not been released yet- this is their last chance to convince people of good alternatives. When comparing the two interfaces, it is like night and day.

I believe that Apple has created a device that will set the new standard for personal communication/computing. Palm has nothing right now. With the death and failure of their long awaited Palm OS 6 (Cobalt), they are now shipping palm devices with windows mobile. I still think Palm OS 5 is better than Windows Mobile 5, but it looks like the iPhone interface will blow ANYTHING clean out of the water- and it's obvious that Palm is well aware of that.

Multi-Touch
Core Animation
Visual Voicemail
Dynamic Interface
Sexiness

Palm may think they will win if they slam the iPhone for its initial shortcomings, but hopefully they realize that the product hasn't even seen its first cycle. Apple seems to always make the users happy, and I'm positive if something is that big of a problem that Apple will fix it one iPhone generation or another.

How will Palm and other smartphone manufacturers keep up? Time will tell!

JeffDM
Jan 11, 2007, 07:00 AM
I think Palm makes some points, but just weeks ago they suggested that "PC guys" won't be able to make significant impact because PC ideas would be unusable in a PDA phone. Now it looks like they are trying to distract people from the fact that they made that prediction.

Motley
Jan 11, 2007, 07:06 AM
I watched a news program on German TV last night where a tech mag writer (from the German mag Connect) was not impressed by the iPhone because "Nokia and Sony Ericsson smartphones already have all the same features the iPhone has". Many of these critics still don't understand that the iPhone isn't about the features per se, but the implementation. It will be by far the easiest to use smartphone on the market.

This mindset is exactly why the iPhone will be a hit, despite it's perceived high price and the growing FUD campaign against.

Microsoft has just been technologically b*tch-slapped. Again.:D

Wasn't this how the iPod took off? It didn't beat the competitors on price or features, but intergration and interface.

Sol
Jan 11, 2007, 07:11 AM
Notice how Steve Jobs refered to the bottom port as an iPod, not Dock connector? I hope it is a standard Dock connector so that we can recharge iPhones using the same peripherals we have for our iPods.

freeny
Jan 11, 2007, 07:12 AM
The battery issue could be a deal breaker for allot of people. Me included. If I cant make it through a whole day without my phone draining, whats the point?

Zadillo
Jan 11, 2007, 07:12 AM
I hope Palm keeps their "this isn't a threat to us" attitude; they have been ignoring customer demands for years, and this is par for the course for them.

I've had a Treo 650 for a year and a half, and was thinking about upgrading to a Treo 680 or even maybe a 750w (as much as I dislike Windows Mobile), but those devices both look like jokes now. Now I'm going to just keep going with my Treo 650 til the iPhone is available.

I do like the third party Palm apps, but I'm not completely tied to them or anything. But the Palm OS itself has been completely neglected (and I have no idea what is going to happen with Access's new Access Linux Platform to replace Palm OS).

The iPhone looks like what Palm should have been doing if they ever wanted to really move things forward, rather than releasing incremental updates and hacks to the aging Treo design.

I'm still hoping Apple will clarify things in regards to third-party support. So far I've only seen vague comments on blogs, etc. but nothing concrete. Some people are claiming it will be a closed platform like the iPod (I think gizmodo even said that an Apple exec told them that), while on another blog when they asked about it, they were said to keep an eye on developers.apple.com.

I will say that the core featureset of the iPhone is compelling enough to me that I might still buy it even without third party support, but it would be a major disappointment, since it seems like such a natural platform for all sorts of cool stuff.

-Zadillo

Samurai
Jan 11, 2007, 07:18 AM
Somewhat true, the iPhone is still lacking although its a solid competitor i dont see it replacing my treo but rather partnering with it.

So you're saying you're going to pay for and carry around both a Treo and iPhone ??

mick4394
Jan 11, 2007, 07:33 AM
i think the phone ships 3G... no way it stays edge... they just didn't want to announce it without knowing it could be completely implemented in the phone yet (kind of like the 3GHZ in one year thing)... of course i may just be making that up...


This isn't the type of thing that can be kept secret. All cell phones have to pass FCC testing. You can't just slip in different communications chips.

If this thing ends up being 3G before it ships, Howardforums will be all over it long before June.

KindredMAC
Jan 11, 2007, 07:36 AM
My prediction....

The iPhone will go the way of the G4 Cube.

Check back here 1 year after it finally makes market and we will see if I am right. Even the G4 Cube didn't have this much bad press when it was released.... It also didn't make the stock value jump over 10 points in a 3 hour period either but.... we shall see what happens.

CrackedButter
Jan 11, 2007, 07:45 AM
Wasn't this how the iPod took off? It didn't beat the competitors on price or features, but intergration and interface.

Seems people still cannot learn how Apple works, except its customers... again.

My prediction....

The iPhone will go the way of the G4 Cube.

Check back here 1 year after it finally makes market and we will see if I am right. Even the G4 Cube didn't have this much bad press when it was released.... It also didn't make the stock value jump over 10 points in a 3 hour period either but.... we shall see what happens.

I will check back in one year. I'm noting your name for future reference.

Compile 'em all
Jan 11, 2007, 07:46 AM
I watched a news program on German TV last night where a tech mag writer (from the German mag Connect) was not impressed by the iPhone because "Nokia and Sony Ericsson smartphones already have all the same features the iPhone has". Many of these critics still don't understand that the iPhone isn't about the features per se, but the implementation.

And in some cases even less features just like in the iPod. I think you have hit the nail right in the head, the iPhone will win just like the iPod did because of simplicity alone.

Uragon
Jan 11, 2007, 07:56 AM
I just hope the battery is replaceable, I always buy extra or spare battery with my mobile phones, simply because I don't want to be caught in the middle of conversation with a low bat.

Though the iPhone is beautiful but if the battery is not replaceable or interchangeable, it's no buy for me.

rhpixelfreak
Jan 11, 2007, 08:01 AM
An unreplaceable battery would be a good reason for users to get a car FM transmitter and charger which already makes ipods infinitely more useful.

...what would happen if you get a phone call though?

CrackedButter
Jan 11, 2007, 08:04 AM
I just hope the battery is replaceable, I always buy extra or spare battery with my mobile phones, simply because I don't want to be caught in the middle of conversation with a low bat.

Though the iPhone is beautiful but if the battery is not replaceable or interchangeable, it's no buy for me.

It isn't.

one09jason
Jan 11, 2007, 08:07 AM
Even the G4 Cube didn't have this much bad press when it was released....


I think the bad press is due to the fact that Apple has actually really shaken the competition. What else can they do but hurl insults? I seem to remember the reaction to the first iPod being something like, "that's it? What's the big deal about another MP3 player?"

blilly
Jan 11, 2007, 08:10 AM
. . . what anyone else has to say, especially other competitors . . this is NOT about a phone or an iPod or whatever.

This is a 'computer'. This is the FIRST of MANY devices that will leverage the UI and usability of the 'iPhone'.

Scale this up to 7 x 9. I guarantee AAPL has a device on a desk in the workshop running this version of X and more complex apps (GarageBand, etc)

Scale this down to a mini. Remove all functionality but the phone, contacts and iCal, and messaging. Scroll with a circular finger motion like an iPod on the bottom and your contact scroll, etc.

Think this is a 'closed' system? It is for now, but it will open to ALL widgets, new 3rd prty apps, iPod games, other games, etc.

Seriously . . . . people are being far too literal with this product.

This is an AMAZING leap in functional possibilities.

Other companies (MS included) HAVE to be looking at this and saying "Why can't our team figure out how to do 10% of that?)

By the way, remember "Origami" and how PC folks were drooling over the potential? This is 100x cooler than that, and will soon be real.

Also, I have almost zero interest in the Apple TV because it does not record TV, but I will also bet that this is the toe in the water for a TON of future functionality that will integrate with everything else out of Cupertino.

Digitalclips
Jan 11, 2007, 08:14 AM
Solar isn't the only Apple could do for a non-charge power solution. Apple could include an RF energy conversion feature using a similar solution to Powercast's (a review of their amazing RF receiver is here (http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-12760_7-9673092-5.html?tag=txt)). If worse comes to worse then they could license Powercast's solution from them (however I think Apple would probably buy Powercast first knowing how much they hate licenses from the iPhone patent incident).

Thanks for that link! This might just be the start of something big! One day maybe I'll be able to tap into next door's wi-fi power grid too :) lol.

Seriously though, exciting development.

CrackedButter
Jan 11, 2007, 08:15 AM
I think the bad press is due to the fact that Apple has actually really shaken the competition. What else can they do but hurl insults? I seem to remember the reaction to the first iPod being something like, "that's it? What's the big deal about another MP3 player?"

I haven't noticed anybody say anything positive about it apart from a few mac users on these boards and some intelligent people on slashdot.

I've not heard anybody mention anything about the huge 3rd party market that caters towards the ipod, being leveraged for this phone and nobody is really talking up the touch screen features.

stockscalper
Jan 11, 2007, 08:18 AM
No other slim phone has every gotten good battery life. That is the tradeoff for slimness, and one of the primary reasons the Treo is so thick

Wrong. The Treo is so thick because it is a brick. It's a dog that doesn't do anything well except for take up weight.

You can have a slim phone, long battery life with a removable battery all in one package. I have the Moto SLVR and it is as thin as the iPhone at .46", has six and a half hours talk time and the battery is removable. It can be done. It's just a matter of whether the manufacturer wants to provide these features. The SLVR has the best talk time of any phone I have ever had. Plus it has itunes, which is a very nice addition. :) The iPhone is the same length and thickness as the SLVR, it's just .6 of an inch wider. They could have made the battery removable if they wanted to.

Digitalclips
Jan 11, 2007, 08:18 AM
. . . what anyone else has to say, especially other competitors . . this is NOT about a phone or an iPod or whatever.

This is a 'computer'. This is the FIRST of MANY devices that will leverage the UI and usability of the 'iPhone'.

Scale this up to 7 x 9. I guarantee AAPL has a device on a desk in the workshop running this version of X and more complex apps (GarageBand, etc)

Scale this down to a mini. Remove all functionality but the phone, contacts and iCal, and messaging. Scroll with a circular finger motion like an iPod on the bottom and your contact scroll, etc.

Think this is a 'closed' system? It is for now, but it will open to ALL widgets, new 3rd prty apps, iPod games, other games, etc.

Seriously . . . . people are being far too literal with this product.

This is an AMAZING leap in functional possibilities.

Other companies (MS included) HAVE to be looking at this and saying "Why can't our team figure out how to do 10% of that?)

By the way, remember "Origami" and how PC folks were drooling over the potential? This is 100x cooler than that, and will soon be real.

Also, I have almost zero interest in the Apple TV because it does not record TV, but I will also bet that this is the toe in the water for a TON of future functionality that will integrate with everything else out of Cupertino.

Absolutely 100% on the mark!
(p.s. Going way down the scale of complex possibilities, I bet a non phone/internet version, i.e. just wide screen iPod is close too - $199?)

Stella
Jan 11, 2007, 08:21 AM
And in some cases even less features just like in the iPod. I think you have hit the nail right in the head, the iPhone will win just like the iPod did because of simplicity alone.

Since I saw this phone, I thought its not the software that it runs but its the UI - the simplicity.

Sure my phone can do what the iPhone can do, except for the visual voice mails - which has been implemented specifically for the iPhone by Cingular. It doesn't have the UI, not a chance. Not close.

However, I can use my phone one handed - can you do that with iPhone? Cell phones should be single handed use also.... I learnt that with the SE P900.

Digitalclips
Jan 11, 2007, 08:21 AM
I haven't noticed anybody say anything positive about it apart from a few mac users on these boards and some intelligent people on slashdot.

I've not heard anybody mention anything about the huge 3rd party market that caters towards the ipod, being leveraged for this phone and nobody is really talking up the touch screen features.

Right on the mark! I can imagine a host of 3rd party software and hardware. This is a new OS X remember! This is just the tip of an Apple iceberg.

Stella
Jan 11, 2007, 08:24 AM
Right on the mark! I can imagine a host of 3rd party software and hardware. This is a new OS X remember! This is just the tip of an Apple iceberg.

If Apple can get the third party developers like they did with the accessories for iPod - its going to do really well. Apple really needs the developer support if this thing is to survive. People are going to tire of stock applications very quickly if its a closed platform.

A smartphone is more useful because you can also put 3rd party apps on. Most phones allow you to sync now anyway, so that part of 'smartphone' has gone into mainstream.

Paladin
Jan 11, 2007, 08:26 AM
Shouldn't the creative professionals be complaining that this device isn't specifically targeted at them? This device is absolutely perfect for me, so I'm patiently waiting for both the 3G version at MWSF '08 and my Verizon contract to end.

Wi-Fi is at the top of my list. This is the #1 reason why I wouldn't buy a Q or a Treo. 3G will come, as Steve specifically mentioned it in the keynote. While I have around 30GB of music, I can easily narrow it down to selections that I'll actually listen to before the next sync. Google Maps looks to be well-implemented, so directions on the go will be a snap. I do anticipate that we'll see a 3rd party Bluetooth GPS solution, probably from Garmin. Even if that package comes in at $299, then the total package will only equal the price of a Nuvi. Finally, it's got push email and a real mobile web browser. I don't need anything else. I sure don't need any document editors on my phone, though I understand that some might. Besides, my fingers are too big to type Word documents on such a small surface with any regularity. Also, I really don't need such a full-featured photo program.

I know I'm asking alot, but be patient. The 3rd party apps will come, as Apple would kill their product without it. Adobe probably won't do a mobile Photoshop, but I'd almost guarantee a DocumentsToGo for the iPhone. Palm, like the Garnet OS, is a dinosaur. They will be gone in the near future, and I have no interest in what their executives have to say. They still can't put out a compelling new product at the $400 price point after years of practice. Let's see: Blazer, VersaMail and pTunes vs. Safari, Mail and the best iPod yet. Can we really even talk about these devices in the same breath?

SimonTheSoundMa
Jan 11, 2007, 08:27 AM
Right on the mark! I can imagine a host of 3rd party software and hardware. This is a new OS X remember! This is just the tip of an Apple iceberg.
It is not a new OS X. Under it all is a UNIX kernel with BSD on top, the rest are just wrapped up.

Digitalclips
Jan 11, 2007, 08:27 AM
Since I saw this phone, I thought its not the software that it runs but its the UI - the simplicity.

Sure my phone can do what the iPhone can do, except for the visual voice mails - which has been implemented specifically for the iPhone by Cingular. It doesn't have the UI, not a chance. Not close.

However, I can use my phone one handed - can you do that with iPhone? Cell phones should be single handed use also.... I learnt that with the SE P900.

Well you could place the iPhone on a table or lap and use one hand... The second hand, from what I saw, only held the iPhone it was never required to do anything other than turn it. That thought makes me wonder though ... which orientation the screen would think it was in when places flat on its back? Maybe there is a manual selection for that too?

Digitalclips
Jan 11, 2007, 08:29 AM
It is not a new OS X. Under it all is a UNIX kernel with BSD on top, the rest are just wrapped up.

Sorry, I meant only new iteration as in it has a new UI but essentially still OS X and all that is wonderful and therefore a host of developers already out there

Stella
Jan 11, 2007, 08:30 AM
Well you could place the iPhone on a table or lap and use one hand... The second hand, from what I saw, only held the iPhone it was never required to do anything other than turn it. That thought makes me wonder though ... which orientation the screen would think it was in when places flat on its back? Maybe there is a manual selection for that too?

No, I mean one handed. Have it in one hand and use it with the same hand, just like any other phone.

I had a P900 - a good phone but I got really tired of its two handed nature. I had to use the stylus to get to the majority of the functionality and that meant TWO HANDS. Forget about the stylus - it was the need for two hands.

Thats me, other people may not find this a problem.

Digitalclips
Jan 11, 2007, 08:36 AM
No, I mean one handed. Have it in one hand and use it with the same hand, just like any other phone.

I had a P900 - a good phone but I got really tired of its two handed nature. I had to use the stylus to get to the majority of the functionality and that meant TWO HANDS. Forget about the stylus - it was the need for two hands.

Thats me, other people may not find this a problem.

OK I understand.

Maybe a new 3rd party product opportunity ... a flexi-snake extension that fits round the neck and extends a false hand in front of the user ... "Griffin iArm":D

CrackedButter
Jan 11, 2007, 08:38 AM
Right on the mark! I can imagine a host of 3rd party software and hardware. This is a new OS X remember! This is just the tip of an Apple iceberg.

I wasn't even thinking 3rd party software, I simply meant hardware accessories. Cases and jackets and stuff. :)

mick4394
Jan 11, 2007, 08:38 AM
I haven't noticed anybody say anything positive about it apart from a few mac users on these boards and some intelligent people on slashdot.

I've not heard anybody mention anything about the huge 3rd party market that caters towards the ipod, being leveraged for this phone and nobody is really talking up the touch screen features.

Personally, it's hard for me to talk up the touch screen feature because, to me, that's one of the major weaknesses of the phone. The thought of using a virtual keyboard for typing up email or texting really makes me cringe.

This is how Palms used to be. They started putting keyboards on these things for a reason.

Digitalclips
Jan 11, 2007, 08:41 AM
My prediction....

The iPhone will go the way of the G4 Cube.

Check back here 1 year after it finally makes market and we will see if I am right.

This is a good one! This will go down in history along with quotes about mice and graphical UIs not ever going to catch on:D

I know we all just saw a paradigm shift in Phone UIs. While making negative iPhone comments Palm, Trio et al are all in their R&D departments screaming to find a way to copy this. 100% guaranteed

Stella
Jan 11, 2007, 08:42 AM
OK I understand.

Maybe a new 3rd party product opportunity ... a flexi-snake extension that fits round the neck and extends a false hand in front of the user ... "Griffin iArm":D

I need that!! :-)

sishaw
Jan 11, 2007, 08:43 AM
I haven't noticed anybody say anything positive about it apart from a few mac users on these boards and some intelligent people on slashdot.

I've not heard anybody mention anything about the huge 3rd party market that caters towards the ipod, being leveraged for this phone and nobody is really talking up the touch screen features.

Read thread #500. It is complaint after complaint about the original iPod. The amount of people who cannot see the significance of technological advances, or just plain design elegance and ease of use, is truly amazing. Steve Jobs said in an interview, "people don't know what they want until we tell them," or words to that effect. How true.

Digitalclips
Jan 11, 2007, 08:44 AM
I need that!! :-)

I always think of such a device at a buffet too, drink in one hand plate in other and food on table! :confused:

jjthomps
Jan 11, 2007, 08:44 AM
I love the quote that it says it has taken Palm a couple of years to figure out how to build a decent phone.

I have the Treo 700p, and decent would be the highest mark I would consider giving it. The phone is slow, and stalls often. Bluetooth is BS, as it's totally hit or miss with "Trusted Devices".

Not having an open platform may be the trick to making this phone work day in and day out. My Treo is Ok when it was new, but put on any apps from another developer, and "boom" no longer so Ok.

I think what most people give a rat's arse about is what's not being discussed.

ANTENNAE. How is the reception on this thing. The palm sux and it has the little nubbin. The iPhone is in a metal/plastic case with no external antennae. How will that work out?

All, and all I love this iPhone so far. Concept is awesome. But I'm holding out for iPhone Gen3. I was an early 1st gen 5Gig iPod owner at the lofty price of $400 (if I remember right). the 3rd gen iPhone should have many, many bugs worked out. (It also helps that I'm locked into the current Verizon contract until April '08.)

twoodcc
Jan 11, 2007, 08:46 AM
Here we go

yep. this will be interesting in the coming months (and weeks). i hope that the iphone gets here fast!

bbydon
Jan 11, 2007, 08:48 AM
palm seems upset.

Stella
Jan 11, 2007, 08:57 AM
palm seems upset.

Its easier to be dismissive of a product rather than praise it.

Behind the walls, I bet they are looking at the design of the UI to see how they can better their own Palm UI.

Nym
Jan 11, 2007, 09:04 AM
This is a good one! This will go down in history along with quotes about mice and graphical UIs not ever going to catch on:D

I know we all just saw a paradigm shift in Phone UIs. While making negative iPhone comments Palm, Trio et al are all in their R&D departments screaming to find a way to copy this. 100% guaranteed

And THAT'S the truth :D

bbydon
Jan 11, 2007, 09:11 AM
I read an article about palm saying how apple wasn't going to be able to come along and solve the phone problem.
Where as they probably haven't solved all of them....they did from the looks of things solve alot of them. Its hard to tell with out using it.

But i think all it needed was a fresh look at it.
All of palms market reserch goes into how they make their phone. In 1999 it said people want buttons.
But that was 1999....and there wasn't ever a good touch screen.

A fresh look at the phone market made the iphone...if we had not had the problems of palm and motos or rims blackberry we wouldnt have the iphone.

So let me say thankyou to palm for making yer phones suck...so we could see whats really cool.

tacojohn
Jan 11, 2007, 09:19 AM
But he does make a good analysis. Apple can use the tech that's out there, and Apple didn't just invent superior batteries that can be super small in size, and give you decent battery life. The battery life numbers SJ told us sounds like he's hoping for a miracle in the battery world for that to happen. Otherwise, it'll be like the 15" PB when it came out, with it's amazing 4.5 hour battery life (that lasted 2 hours).

This to me looks like a door for a battery and SIM card. Steve didn't mention anything about the battery NOT being removable...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/145/353860554_228b0d4f5a.jpg?v=0

Porchland
Jan 11, 2007, 09:22 AM
If Apple pull this off this will finish off Palm won't it?

The iPhone will definitely hurt the Treo, but it will not compete face up for every Treo customer until it talks to ActiveSync.

The enterprise customers that buy Treos by the hundred are not going to switch to a platform that won't work with ActiveSync/Exchange/Office out of the box.

And don't replay to this post telling me about IMAP and iCal and some third-party solution that will make it all work; we'll know that Apple is serious about business customers when we hear Steve Jobs start talking about ActiveSync.

And I think it could happen. From Apple's prospective, why not? There are tons of other third-party devices that already talk to ActiveSync, and Apple has a huge upside to going after business customers. I'd like to see the iPhone go this route along with tighter integration of Mail/iCal/Address Book to Outlook in general.

kmogul
Jan 11, 2007, 09:25 AM
Wasn't this how the iPod took off? It didn't beat the competitors on price or features, but intergration and interface.

If I remember correctly, at the conference Jobs said he they had copyrighted the interface (or something along those lines). But how long before we see the same interface on other phones? Apparently Synaptics 'ClearPad' technology is available to OEMs, and Pilotfish are openly stating that they will develop interfaces for OEMs using ClearPad.

http://www.pilotfish.eu/EN/homepage/teaser/teaser_2/index.html

Does the iPhone use ClearPad technology, or is it Apples own tech that just does the same thing?

(If you havent seen the Synaptics Onyx concept phone interface already, then check it out, its practically exactly the same as the iPhone... perhaps Onyx is an early iPhone concept??)

Kamran

bbydon
Jan 11, 2007, 09:27 AM
yeah steve never said anything about the battery other than life.....
how do we know its not removable.

BenRoethig
Jan 11, 2007, 09:28 AM
My prediction....

The iPhone will go the way of the G4 Cube.

Check back here 1 year after it finally makes market and we will see if I am right. Even the G4 Cube didn't have this much bad press when it was released.... It also didn't make the stock value jump over 10 points in a 3 hour period either but.... we shall see what happens.

I don't think it's going to sell 10 million units or anything close to that, but it's not going to bomb like the Cube. The Cube didn't offer anything revolutionary like the iPhone does.. In fact, I don't remember it actually offer anything over the less expensive PMG4.

BitstreamCEO
Jan 11, 2007, 09:29 AM
My first Post!

I'd like to comment on a few things. When I first was online here watching the live updates, I drooled over the phone. Then I watched the keynote. It is amazing to me how well Apple designs their products and how good this one could be out of the box.

With that said, obviously there are things that could be, should be or won't be. Removable battery as people have stated here, vibrate, 3G and a host of other questions. But it seems that Apple, in it's first iteration of the phone has nailed, by in large, the functionality most peopple would want, and how all of those are interoperable.

Apple seems to be a company that looks as a product launch as part of their R&D, not post. As stated by others, we have all the introduction of cool technology of this phone. Without having it 100,000 people's hands, who knows how good it really can be based on feedback?

I don't expect this phone to be the be all end all of iPhone (why not just call it ApplePhone like AppleTV?). Once the technology is out, Apple will surely say "we didn't even know we could implement things this way" and make improvements while adding features.

About the 3rd party developers and apps. I would love to see the ability to run keynote or other apps from this. Imagine being able to walk into a conference room, throw a presentation to a laptop from your iPhone, and be able to run it. Next, back, volume up and down, anything from the iPhone now acting as a remote for your keynote! That would rock. At least for me.

What people need to remember, is that yes, Apple seems to have gotten it right out of the box for the way this phone operates. the best news is it's only their first phone. Imagine in two years what they will be like.

Richard

Abu Reno
Jan 11, 2007, 09:38 AM
2 years in the making and still garbage!

I've owned 2 Treo 650's & I'm on my 3rd Treo 700p. The phone constantly freezes. I'm unable to fwd messages longer then 30 secs that I've received from other phones. The Blue Tooth is killing me. I've tried 3 different brands and they all seem to need to paired over a certain number of calls! The only reason I'm still using it is because of SMS. I'm not expecting the iPhone to be perfect, but if Treo claims to be fixing bugs for more then 2 years. GO $*(#@#$&$#@%:mad: I honestly can't remember if and when apple ever designed something that blew up in their face......

Paladin
Jan 11, 2007, 09:39 AM
This to me looks like a door for a battery and SIM card. Steve didn't mention anything about the battery NOT being removable...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/145/353860554_228b0d4f5a.jpg?v=0

I agree. Look at the iPhone Introduction video at approx. 12:45. He says it has a tray for the SIM card, but the arrow is pointing at the middle of the top of the phone. Clearly, no SIM tray exists in that location. The tray is the black part at the bottom of the phone, and I bet it also houses by the removable battery.

kddpop
Jan 11, 2007, 09:42 AM
However, I can use my phone one handed - can you do that with iPhone? Cell phones should be single handed use also....

this is the first new product that i have instantly wanted. unfortunately, i wont be able to afford one right away. thankfully, that will stall me to wait for revb. all that to say...this thing looks great and i can't wait.

i did, however, notice this need for two hands. maybe it is possible to scroll with one hand but im not seeing how it will be comfortable. it seemed steve really needed to hold the phone with one hand and do the nifty scroll move with the other.

for me, i couldn't care less about edge vs. g3. or replaceable battery. as i dont travel often at all, i could use wifi. and charging/syncing every night doesnt bug me at all. but the day to day use issue of having to use both hands to scroll through my contacts to make a call might be something i couldn't live with. i guess i'll have to wait and see it in person.

~kyle

migue
Jan 11, 2007, 09:43 AM
No other slim phone has every gotten good battery life. That is the tradeoff for slimness, and one of the primary reasons the Treo is so thick

Wrong. The Treo is so thick because it is a brick. It's a dog that doesn't do anything well except for take up weight.

You can have a slim phone, long battery life with a removable battery all in one package. I have the Moto SLVR and it is as thin as the iPhone at .46", has six and a half hours talk time and the battery is removable. It can be done. It's just a matter of whether the manufacturer wants to provide these features. The SLVR has the best talk time of any phone I have ever had. Plus it has itunes, which is a very nice addition. :) The iPhone is the same length and thickness as the SLVR, it's just .6 of an inch wider. They could have made the battery removable if they wanted to.

I like your point, but I also have a SLVR and I notice that the battery is only removable after one pries away the outer back shell. Any battery, even the iPod's, is removable if you open the shell. It will all depend on how easy they made it for the ordinary person (after all, selling batteries is a major cashpoint of handset makers), as well as on how they engineered the battery (I recall some rumors of dual battery for phone and ipod function)

age234
Jan 11, 2007, 09:49 AM
This to me looks like a door for a battery and SIM card. Steve didn't mention anything about the battery NOT being removable...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/145/353860554_228b0d4f5a.jpg?v=0

I think so too.

crumpled
Jan 11, 2007, 09:57 AM
My first post too!

My first Post!

Apple seems to be a company that looks as a product launch as part of their R&D, not post.

Exactly. I suspect that the delay for the european introduction may be about putting 3G functionality into the iPhone as 3G is widespread in Europe, EDGE isn't. Even where I live (more sheep than humans) we have 3G. And with 3G comes the bandwidth for video calling: iChat AV mobile?[/P]

About the 3rd party developers and apps. I would love to see the ability to run keynote or other apps from this.

Again, I think the delay in introduction is due to further features. We also haven't seen iLife 07 or iWork 07. If these new releases (which seem to be tied up with Leopard; ? resolution independence) will work on the iPhone then you'd be able to edit MS office docs, run presentations etc etc from the iPhone. This would make it a pretty good business phone. I used to have a Treo 600. It was ok. I could read docs on it but editing sucked because of the tiny screen and tiny keyboard. I now have a 12 " ibook and a 3G phone and both work better than a hybrid.

But the iPhone is oh so tempting......:D

Pete

slffl
Jan 11, 2007, 09:59 AM
Once again people are comparing apples to oranges. Palm has been going after the business market with the Treo. IMO Apple is set on going after the consumer market and letting Windows Mobile keep the 'business men'.

sishaw
Jan 11, 2007, 10:01 AM
I agree. Look at the iPhone Introduction video at approx. 12:45. He says it has a tray for the SIM card, but the arrow is pointing at the middle of the top of the phone. Clearly, no SIM tray exists in that location. The tray is the black part at the bottom of the phone, and I bet it also houses by the removable battery.

That's what I thought at first, and I hope you're right. My guess, though, is that's where the antenna is. An all-metallic case would limit reception.

shelterpaw
Jan 11, 2007, 10:12 AM
If I were Palm, I'd bash it too. So many people have been picking away at Palms market of course they're going to be nay sayers.

I used to know a ton of people with Palm Pilots. Now most people I know have the Blackberry or the Sidekick. Business users tend to gravitate towards the Blackberry and non-business users the Sidekick.

I was interested in the SideKick 3 myself until I saw the iPhone. The iPhone is going to strike a little fear in a lot of companies, fear the iPhone may turn into the iPod and cannibalize the PDA and SmartPhone industry.

Sandfleaz
Jan 11, 2007, 10:15 AM
I've never had a Smart phone before, but I'm getting a company issued Blackberry in a couple of days.
It should give me a good point of reference.

odaiwai
Jan 11, 2007, 10:33 AM
If Apple pull this off this will finish off Palm won't it?

Yep. While the Palm T|X has a lot of comparable specs (screen size and resolution, total size and weight, WiFi, Bluetooth, good battery life), it looks like an antique compared to the iPhone.

But: "You had me at scrolling". Yep, me too. Seeing a mobile device which didn't look underpowered on the graphics front, seeing that multi-touch interface, seeing the seamless integration between all the services, *seeing the multi-tasking* made me realise that I will never buy another palm. I've had Palms for the last ten years. No more.

Apple may or may not have reinvented the phone, but they sure as heck have raised the bar for the PDA.

BKF
Jan 11, 2007, 10:35 AM
I think the iPhone v. Treo v. Blackberry conversation actually misses the point. Though they'll take whatever converts they can get, my guess is that Apple is not intending to go head to head with these devices, but, rather, to create a market for this type of device among people who have never felt the need or desire for a Treo or Blackberry. I, for instance, have never till now needed such a thing, but to see it done so elegantly, simply, beautifully, coolly — well, now I want one.

If the iPhone succeeds it will be because Apple is expanding and creating a market, not entering one.

Ljot
Jan 11, 2007, 10:36 AM
This to me looks like a door for a battery and SIM card. Steve didn't mention anything about the battery NOT being removable...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/145/353860554_228b0d4f5a.jpg?v=0

That is probably the non-conducting cover over the antennas. It has approximatly the right size necessary for the complex multiband antenna (4 band-GSM, 2 band Wifi/BT). It is placed at a good location for getting a reliable link with a low SAR. As the SIM-card is inserted elsewhere, it would suprise me if this is a removable door.

sebastianlewis
Jan 11, 2007, 10:37 AM
Tough Words, but Apple showed it at Macworld so the FCC wouldn't do it for them. :cool:

Sebastian

Laz45
Jan 11, 2007, 10:41 AM
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/2655/iphonevske850wmhf8.jpg
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/7313/iphonevske8502wmtt9.jpg
Found this on Engadget

emotion
Jan 11, 2007, 10:44 AM
meh, the treo looks like the blackjack which looks like the blackberry. They are far from the same device though.

tallyho
Jan 11, 2007, 10:48 AM
I want one of these as a music/video/photo ipod (with considerably more than 8GB too!:rolleyes: ), but it's obviously too clunky to use as a phone. Nobody uses two hands on their phone - you use the thumb of the hand you're holding it with, because the other hand is holding your bag/fighting through the crowds of commuters etc etc. Plus you throw your phone around and generally mistreat it in a way you don't with an ipod.

Also - unless you get a really cheap pay-as-you go phone (mine cost £19.99 and still works fine 2 years later), then people expect a cool phone to be free or pretty much near free if you're signing up to a contract...and they expect to get upgraded regularly too. All of this means that people fundamentally treat phones and ipods differently:
-phones are pretty much disposable (you get the latest model until it breaks/you get an upgrade, which is free because it is heavly subsidised by the phone company)
-ipods are expensive and treated as treasured possessions-you can't walk into an apple store and get an upgrade for free!

Is there really such a difference between the Uk and the US on this? I'm amazed that we in the UK seem to be so far ahead when it comes to mobiles than the Americans :D

JeffDM
Jan 11, 2007, 10:49 AM
The battery issue could be a deal breaker for allot of people. Me included. If I cant make it through a whole day without my phone draining, whats the point?

The playback times are given, but to me, the most critical part is the standby times. I don't turn off my current phone and I'm somewhat used to charging my phone once a week. Two or three times a week isn't out of the question if it's a media player because there are always new podcasts coming anyway.

JeffDM
Jan 11, 2007, 10:55 AM
I want one of these as a music/video/photo ipod (with considerably more than 8GB too!:rolleyes: ), but it's obviously too clunky to use as a phone. Nobody uses two hands on their phone - you use the thumb of the hand you're holding it with, because the other hand is holding your bag/fighting through the crowds of commuters etc etc. Plus you throw your phone around and generally mistreat it in a way you don't with an ipod.


I usually end up having to use handheld devices with two hands anyway, most of them are too small, too big, buttons are too stiff, buttons too low on the device or have some other ergonomic problem. This includes phones, all of the ones I've tried are at least a little cumbersome to use single-handed.

wildmac
Jan 11, 2007, 11:07 AM
everyone is forgetting the one big feature of the new high-speed data capability of the new Treos, etc. The ability to use it as a modem for your laptop. I'll bet you the iPhone won't do it.

that's a deal-breaker for me.

JeffDM
Jan 11, 2007, 11:08 AM
yeah steve never said anything about the battery other than life.....
how do we know its not removable.

If it was there, I think he'd call it a revolutionary new feature and have some gimmicky means of holding it or ejecting it.

Laz45
Jan 11, 2007, 11:10 AM
everyone is forgetting the one big feature of the new high-speed data capability of the new Treos, etc. The ability to use it as a modem for your laptop. I'll bet you the iPhone won't do it.

that's a deal-breaker for me.

It's called "Tethering" and I'm pretty sure it wont have it..... The only thing I see on the phone that is Revolutionary is the GUI and Multi-Touch it still needs Faster speeds and 3rd party software to be great.

JeffDM
Jan 11, 2007, 11:11 AM
I like your point, but I also have a SLVR and I notice that the battery is only removable after one pries away the outer back shell. Any battery, even the iPod's, is removable if you open the shell. It will all depend on how easy they made it for the ordinary person (after all, selling batteries is a major cashpoint of handset makers), as well as on how they engineered the battery (I recall some rumors of dual battery for phone and ipod function)

That's not even the same type of phone, and the screen size is a lot smaller too. The SLVR isn't being asked to do nearly as much as the iPhone is.

iPods do have replaceable batteries, but they aren't replaceable on the go. Some people want a second battery on hand in case their primary dies.

emotion
Jan 11, 2007, 11:15 AM
everyone is forgetting the one big feature of the new high-speed data capability of the new Treos, etc. The ability to use it as a modem for your laptop. I'll bet you the iPhone won't do it.

that's a deal-breaker for me.

There's no way Apple won't allow this. It's a feature of every bluetooth phone (again, my ancient se t610 can do it).

Cingular might block it but it would be insane for Apple to hobble the device like that.

However, at EDGE speeds I don't know why you'd bother unless in an emergency.

whatever
Jan 11, 2007, 11:21 AM
Although you mentioned it sarcastically, I think solar implementation is a fabulous idea for Apple to experiment with. Jonathan Ive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Ive)'s team could totally revolutionize the way solar is efficiently used.

Whatever, yeah I see the headline today:

"Man catches fire when solar powered smart phone catches fire in his pocket!"

hvfsl
Jan 11, 2007, 11:27 AM
No !
But on the go, WLAN is nearly useless. In the town where I live I do not know any WLAN I can access and I relally walked around a lot with a MacBook. Some hotels etc. do have public WLANs, but they are often quite expensive (often more expensive than 3G service) and they are very insecure (no encryption), sometimes you even have to enter credit card info via unencrypted WLAN.

Just pointing out that sending credit card info over an unencrypted WLAN is not as insecure as some might think. Don't forget that your browser is encrypting the credit card details.

Anyway, Jobs said they will add 3G to the iPhone so I fully expect it to be in the European and Asian versions of the phone. We in Europe won't see it until around October and Asia sometime in 2008 (plenty of time to get it sorted).

Nym
Jan 11, 2007, 11:29 AM
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/2655/iphonevske850wmhf8.jpg
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/7313/iphonevske8502wmtt9.jpg
Found this on Engadget

What is this? care to explain the LG brand on the iPhone Look Alike? Or was it Apple that copied LG? :o

whatever
Jan 11, 2007, 11:32 AM
Somewhat true, the iPhone is still lacking although its a solid competitor i dont see it replacing my treo but rather partnering with it. There is no removable battery, no Office suite editing support, no memory expansion support (which i guess is a marketing ploy to get people to keep upgrading to higher capacity versions). Also what about apps?

The iPhone is an amazing product but i dont see myself getting the first gen unless i have spare cash lying around. The treo is still more productive for me.

Also lets be fair the iPhone copied/borrowed stuff from Palm such as the ringer/silent switch function, threaded SMS, the famous home button/home screen, phone app etc but thats ok they took the good stuff and improved on them so im not complaining.
I was a huge fan of Palm way back in the day, but ever since my iPod could sync up my contacts and calendar, it has pretty much set on my desk and I use to retreive old stored data.

To many of us, Palm has been dead for years. Basically we all went from clucky laptops, to Palm, to smaller laptops, to a Blackberry/laptop combo. When you mention Palm to people, often you hear, "are they still around".

The iPhone is the type of device that many of us are looking at. Just the other day, one of the many anti-Mac boys claimed that it was just a regular phone, so we ordered him to go onto the site and do a little research and he came back a while later saying that this is exactly what he's been waiting for. Mind you, this guy is anti-Apple.

We're currently timing the battery life on our Blackberries and the four of us (the time keepers) are all dying after 90 minutes.

Ljot
Jan 11, 2007, 11:35 AM
What is this? care to explain the LG brand on the iPhone Look Alike? Or was it Apple that copied LG? :o

It is the LG KE850: http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2006/12/15/the-lg-ke850-touchable-chocolate/

skochan
Jan 11, 2007, 11:39 AM
Out of curiosity, I went back to the original thread that was created after Jobs announced the iPod. MANY of the posts back then were very negative. Here's a sampling from just the first page:

Great just what the world needs, another freaking MP3 player. Go Steve! Where's the Newton?!

I still can't believe this! All this hype for something so ridiculous! Who cares about an MP3 player? I want something new! I want them to think differently!
Why oh why would they do this?! It's so wrong! It's so stupid!

gee! an mp3 player with a HD! how original! kinda reminds me of a JUKEBOX i once knew..

OH NO! Just checked Apple Store - they want $399.00 for this thing...Ouch!!!

I pray steve has saved one last new thing to pull out ala steve right at the end...

All that hype for an MP3 player? Break-thru digital device? The Reality Distiortion Field™ is starting to warp Steve's mind if he thinks for one second that this thing is gonna take off.

Sure the iPod is cool, and hell yeah I'd love to have one, but only for half the asking price of $399. Here's the questions though...
If this is also a 5gb HD, can it be used as a quicktime player for video in any other way?
Is the software that runs it upgradeable to add features later on?
If the ipod is only the world's most baddass MP3 player then I don't know if I'm really going to stand in line to buy it, I have a cd walkman and a burner already, and besides that now that I don't have a dotcom job anymore I need that $400 to pay car payments and rent.
Steve, bring down the price or add video to it and I'll eat TopRamen for a month to afford one.


I think history is about to repeat itself here. Apple may be looking to capture just 1% of the market in 2008, but I have a feeling that's conservative and is just the beginning.... Apple is going to end up dominating this market as well.

miketcool
Jan 11, 2007, 11:41 AM
Not only does this squash rumors and secrecy but this sets up the market. Look at it this way:

You can buy an iPod anytime. Almost anywhere nowadays. No contracts to renegotiate, no company required to provide the iPods basic services, its yours.
Cell phones are completely different because you cannot just go out and buy one unless you renew your current contract (assuming that phone is on there already) or you pay to end your contract early and switch to another.
We all have 6 months to think about it. A huge amount of customers are going to have to resign contracts in the next 6 months, so here is their chance to switch. Apple is letting people decide instead of frustrating them by releasing it immediately and forcing people to stay on their contract and not leave it. We have a choice now.
This is all marketing and attention, and Apple has started the year well.:p

whatever
Jan 11, 2007, 11:42 AM
Is it possible to have an external battery that connects to the bottom of the iPhone for long days? I know it'd be far lamer than changing the battery, just wondering.

Otherwise the market for car chargers and secondary chargers (home + work) will be huge.

edit: okay, found a few external batteries, all quite large (eg half size of regular iPod). The redeeming feature is that it'll charge your iPod while connected, so you don't have to necessarily USE it with the external battery. Ah well.
Well, you just hit the nail on the head.

There is already a huge market for iPod products. Most of the people who use their iPod in their car already have the charger and an FM transmitter. The iPhone is not a new LG or Motorola phone which have different jacks and chargers from their older counterparts. The iPhone uses the same devices as your trusty iPod.

DUCKofD3ATH
Jan 11, 2007, 11:43 AM
The iPhone does have a docking port, yes? So some third party will sell a thin battery pack that will plug into the port, much like the TunePower Rechargeable Battery Pack for iPod.

Nym
Jan 11, 2007, 11:45 AM
It is the LG KE850: http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2006/12/15/the-lg-ke850-touchable-chocolate/

This is very very stange, the buttons on the bottom are very similar, I wonder how there isn't a post about this somewhere here on MacRumors.

I mean, that LG phone photos, were they released before the iPhone?
I hate to think that Apple may have ripped off someone else's idea for the UI :o

2ndPath
Jan 11, 2007, 11:49 AM
Solar isn't the only Apple could do for a non-charge power solution. Apple could include an RF energy conversion feature using a similar solution to Powercast's (a review of their amazing RF receiver is here (http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-12760_7-9673092-5.html?tag=txt)). If worse comes to worse then they could license Powercast's solution from them (however I think Apple would probably buy Powercast first knowing how much they hate licenses from the iPhone patent incident).

The description of this technology sounds like you need a power transmitter and a reciever. If the reciever is sitting in the phone, you still need a transmitter sending power to it. This has to either be close to the phone or use a directed transmission towards it. Otherwise, to cover large areas with enough power to operate a cellphone with a fingernail sized reciever would require an enormous ammount of energy.

mick4394
Jan 11, 2007, 11:50 AM
This is very very stange, the buttons on the bottom are very similar, I wonder how there isn't a post about this somewhere here on MacRumors.

I mean, that LG phone photos, were they released before the iPhone?
I hate to think that Apple may have ripped off someone else's idea for the UI :o

Yes, those pics were released long before the iPhone was announced. Those pictures were from December 15th on Engadget.

whatever
Jan 11, 2007, 11:51 AM
Once again people are comparing apples to oranges. Palm has been going after the business market with the Treo. IMO Apple is set on going after the consumer market and letting Windows Mobile keep the 'business men'.

I agree. Apple is going after the Consumer market with this device in hopes that people will start bringing it to work. Almost like a hardware version of the Podcast. Podcasts started off as fun things that kids did and parents started watching them and now companies are taking advantage of the technology.

The only device out there that is simalar to the iPhone is really Sony's PSP (except for the phone feature). If you think I'm crazy take a close look at it and some of the hacks available. What's the battery life on that.

Nym
Jan 11, 2007, 11:52 AM
Yes, those pics were released long before the iPhone was announced. Those pictures were from December 15th on Engadget.

That's not good... :(

eightball0
Jan 11, 2007, 12:00 PM
Don't you think the iPhone (from what we've seen) looks like an ideal platform for dashboard style widgets?

They are really easy to write yourself. We just need to wait to see if Apple will allow this but I don't know why people think Apple will lock this down to 1st party apps. It seems like an ideal platform for 3rd party stuff.

Apple has already said that the iPhone will be just like the iPod-- a closed platform.

That means that IF there's any 3rd-party development at all, it's going to be Apple-approved apps sold through iTunes.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/macworld2007/gizmodo-iphone-hands-on-part-deux-why-isnt-it-white-and-other-questions-227575.php

"...like an iPod, it won't be an open system that people can develop for. Remember, this is both an iPod and a Phone."

If you want this to change, why not file a bug with Apple?
http://rentzsch.com/cocoa/iphoneIndieAppDevelopment

I can understand why they're doing this--they want to fully control the user experience so they can be sure it's what they think is best.

For someone like me who owns a Treo 650 and a Nokia E70, and is a software developer, it's tremendously disappointing. I use plenty of third-party apps on my phones to keep track of projects, interface with GPS software, and watch video in formats not supported by the software. I've also randomly hacked together a couple things on my phone.

While there aren't many people in the world like me, there are a substantial number--this is why the third party software market for Palm, Symbian, and Windows Mobile exists. Many of those people wouldn't have trouble spending $499 or $599 on a phone.

The iPhone has perhaps the best interface of any phone (save for a few shortcomings, such as the keyboard, which you pointed out in your excellent hands-on write-up). Despite all that, I don't want to give up GPS mapping, project management, instant messaging, and fast access to my appointments and todo list. Since Apple isn't providing those features with the phone, and they're not allowing third-party development, I'm going to have to pass on the iPhone.

One of the best things about the Macintosh is the wide array of great shareware. Apple has purchased companies developing shareware and integrated their products with OS X. (iTunes and its new CoverFlow feature both started their life as shareware programs). They've also hired away talented shareware developers from their own companies. Hence, Apple is familiar with what an great asset third-party software is--even software from small developers. I'm surprised they didn't incorporate this lesson into the iPhone by allowing 3rd-party developers to work their magic on the iPhone.

miketcool
Jan 11, 2007, 12:01 PM
Also lets be fair the iPhone copied/borrowed stuff from Palm such as the ringer/silent switch function, threaded SMS, the famous home button/home screen, phone app etc but thats ok they took the good stuff and improved on them so im not complaining.

Are you kidding?
Apple created this market, Palm followed suit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Newton

http://www.blakespot.com/list/images/mp2100.jpg

hulugu
Jan 11, 2007, 12:10 PM
Don't you think the iPhone (from what we've seen) looks like an ideal platform for dashboard style widgets?

They are really easy to write yourself. We just need to wait to see if Apple will allow this but I don't know why people think Apple will lock this down to 1st party apps. It seems like an ideal platform for 3rd party stuff.

An Apple SDK is sure to arrive soon.

shawnce
Jan 11, 2007, 12:13 PM
An Apple SDK is sure to arrive soon.

I wouldn't be so sure about soon... someday likely (2008-2009) but I doubt anytime soon (aka 2007).

In the near term (1-2 years) I expect Apple to keep it closed and to selectively work with 3rd parties to bring specific high-quality applications/capabilities to the iPhone.

50548
Jan 11, 2007, 12:16 PM
Mr. Metz from PC Mag says it all:

"For all of ten minutes. Ten minutes isn't much, but I can safely say that the iPhone is even more impressive than it appeared during the Jobs keyote. And that's saying something."

Conclusion? Palm is dead, Treo is dead, every other high-end mobile phone is dead...Apple leads yet another revolution...simply amazing.

I will get one as soon as it comes, no question about it.

Ljot
Jan 11, 2007, 12:19 PM
Mr. Metz from PC Mag says it all:

Conclusion? Palm is dead, Treo is dead, every other high-end mobile phone is dead...Apple leads yet another revolution...simply amazing.



If, and only if, Apple makes it open for 3rd party developers. As it was presented, there is a lot of functionality from my Palm that is missing (ebook reader, MS office doc. support, pdf reader, sync with MS Office, games etc.)

jjthomps
Jan 11, 2007, 12:43 PM
If, and only if, Apple makes it open for 3rd party developers. As it was presented, there is a lot of functionality from my Palm that is missing (ebook reader, MS office doc. support, pdf reader, sync with MS Office, games etc.)

I doubt palm is dead, but really..... 3rd party apps continue to bloat my Treo 700p. It's a POS as it freezes constantly. The new iPhone doesn't have a paperclip hole.... but I could find mine on my Treo in the dark holding the paperclip between my toes I use it so often.

Just picked up a word document yesterday through email, and tried to open it in documents to go. It said it wasn't supported. Though even AppleWorks opened it fine on the Mac, and of course Word worked without a hitch. How many times have you had a PDF that wouldn't load on your Palm? How long does it take? Wouldn't it be easier just to open up a laptop and look at it. I know it would be for me.

Keeping everything in house makes for a cleaner product. Have you tried an iPod? I believe that you will find only a hand full of developers allowed to partner for 3rd party solutions. But who knows. This is gen 1......

jjthomps
Jan 11, 2007, 12:44 PM
What is this? care to explain the LG brand on the iPhone Look Alike? Or was it Apple that copied LG? :o

What exactly did you think Apple would do with a 10 key layout that wouldn't be a ripoff from something? I can look at a calculator or an AT&T phone from 1984 and say that they both ripped off the layout.

hulugu
Jan 11, 2007, 12:54 PM
I wouldn't be so sure about soon... someday likely (2008-2009) but I doubt anytime soon (aka 2007).

In the near term (1-2 years) I expect Apple to keep it closed and to selectively work with 3rd parties to bring specific high-quality applications/capabilities to the iPhone.

It's hard to tell, but the apps on the iPhone look considerably similar to Dashboard—maybe they were testing the interface waters a little—and thus there may be something similar to Dashcode, but for the iPhone. Obviously the SDK won't be released before the phone, so your timeline may be correct, since the iPhone won't be released until around WWDC.

Apple's been recticent with the iPod, but the iPhone may be a different story. We'll see.

Ljot
Jan 11, 2007, 12:57 PM
Just picked up a word document yesterday through email, and tried to open it in documents to go. It said it wasn't supported. Though even AppleWorks opened it fine on the Mac, and of course Word worked without a hitch. How many times have you had a PDF that wouldn't load on your Palm? How long does it take? Wouldn't it be easier just to open up a laptop and look at it. I know it would be for me.

Keeping everything in house makes for a cleaner product. Have you tried an iPod? I believe that you will find only a hand full of developers allowed to partner for 3rd party solutions. But who knows. This is gen 1......

So we agree, the iPhone of today is not the death of Palm. (The iPhone of tomorrow will have to compete with the Palm (etc.) of tomorrow.)

And as to your questions: I have pdf:s that crash my printer! But I also have pdf:s that work fine on Palm, and that I can always have with me for reference. The same goes for word-documents. The iPhone did not seem to have any ebook-reader capabilities as of today in any format. And I can easily use the Palm for taking notes at meetings without having to look at the device, and without having to crowd the space with my laptop. Two important things (for me) that the iPhone does not have. I also have some 3rd party stuff that I would really miss: a star map, tide tables etc. Highly specialised narrow stuff that I doubt I will ever find in a stock release of a iPhone.

(And I have an iPod. Which I bought for the design, not the functionality. I also have a macbook, a couple of PCs, some Palms, mobile phones, etc. etc. And I will instantly buy the >=80GB Video iPod which uses the same screen and UI as the iPhone!)

jhande
Jan 11, 2007, 12:59 PM
Don't you think the iPhone (from what we've seen) looks like an ideal platform for dashboard style widgets?

They are really easy to write yourself. We just need to wait to see if Apple will allow this but I don't know why people think Apple will lock this down to 1st party apps. It seems like an ideal platform for 3rd party stuff.

Amen! I don't want to make widgets, I want to develop for this thing.

sinterp29
Jan 11, 2007, 01:01 PM
I second the previous suggestion that Apple is not even trying to really compete with some of the 'business' smart phone makers. From the perspective of a recent college graduate, I can tell you that Apple has made leaps and bounds with the regular consumer/youth market. My freshman year, whenever I'd walk into the library every laptop was a Dell; now virtually every laptop I ever see around campus is an iBook or MacBook!

Similarly, the only people that I know with a Palm or Blackberry are people that I work with and for, none of my friends have one. I think what Apple is doing by creating a simple, easy-to-use interfaced device with great functionality is giving people who previously would never even think of getting a smart phone to strongly reconsider what their next phone will look like. Everyone I know is drooling at the possiblity of having something that they can easily walk around campus with and listen to music, call people, jot down assignments, etc. and surf the net with.

I think people should not look at the iPhone as the end all product (and thus criticize every minute thing they can find wrong with it), but consider that it is the foundation for a whole new take on mobile computing. Apple is, and has always been, about enriching regular people's lives through innovation. I think this perfectly in step with that. I think Steve Jobs doesn't give a hoot whether he can replace every Treo in the board room; he's looking at that soon to be college student who is putting his list together.

ShermDog
Jan 11, 2007, 01:01 PM
I think the iPhone is sure to have some issues, and it won't make everyone happy, just most. In the end I think it will be a hit, but I also think that it would be foolish for Apple not to learn from established companies in this market. For heavy text and email users, I can see there being an issue with a completely touch-screen interface because of the lack of feedback. I remember when Apple switched the iPod's control wheel to being touch sensitive, and a lot of people complained about the lack of tactile feedback when scrolling through their playlists. But, this didn't hurt iPod sales at the end of the day, and I don't think it will hurt the iPhone either.

rish
Jan 11, 2007, 01:03 PM
I don't think the current market entrants will disappear any time soon. Some business people are dull therefore will always use dull fiddly smart phones, others might like fiddly complicated devices and the rest may actually love their smart phones and get a great deal of joy using them.

I don't.

Currently I use a Tungsten for word and excel apps and syncing these documents through docs to go is slow and painful. I've experienced on too many occassions the slow opening of documents let alone freezing screens. My end user experience is poor very poor and I do hate using that bloody stylus thing. Do I use my Tungsten because I want to? No, I use it because I have to. It's no fun at all.

Now the Apple Phone looks like a device I want to use for work and play (more for the latter). It's not only stunning in design and UI but most important of all, seriously easy to use. I do not care one iota that its not 3G, the fact that it can do all thats been demonstrated and very possibly so much more once approved and available whets onces desire to purchase one.

The fact alone that its been a carefully crafted product from Apple means to me that the ball is way way out of the park.

My only question is how long will I have to wait to get one!

50548
Jan 11, 2007, 01:11 PM
I don't think the current market entrants will disappear any time soon. Some business people are dull therefore will always use dull fiddly smart phones, others might like fiddly complicated devices and the rest may actually love their smart phones and get a great deal of joy using them.

I don't.

Currently I use a Tungsten for word and excel apps and syncing these documents through docs to go is slow and painful. I've experienced on too many occassions the slow opening of documents let alone freezing screens. My end user experience is poor very poor and I do hate using that bloody stylus thing. Do I use my Tungsten because I want to? No, I use it because I have to. It's no fun at all.

Now the Apple Phone looks like a device I want to use for work and play (more for the latter). It's not only stunning in design and UI but most important of all, seriously easy to use. I do not care one iota that its not 3G, the fact that it can do all thats been demonstrated and very possibly so much more once approved and available whets onces desire to purchase one.

The fact alone that its been a carefully crafted product from Apple means to me that the ball is way way out of the park.

My only question is how long will I have to wait to get one!

Exactly my thoughts...Apple just did it right, period. Every other smartphone is scary to say the least, and made just for geeks or those execs that also prefer Windows over OS X...their interfaces are just awful, and no comparison can be made with the iPhone...not at all.

jhande
Jan 11, 2007, 01:14 PM
Its easier to be dismissive of a product rather than praise it.

Behind the walls, I bet they are looking at the design of the UI to see how they can better their own Palm UI.

Huh, good luck. Over at Palm Infocenter (http://www.palminfocenter.com) we've called the Palm OS 'FrankenGarnet' for a couple of years. Cobalt was a complete bust, and the best definition of vaporware since Duke Nukem.

I have and use a Treo 650. One thing, though, that is fantasic is precisely the 3rd party apps. Standing in a stream 3,000 miles away from your office (Finlande, 300km north of the polar circle) with your fishing rod thrown up on the bank in haste, and fixing a clients problem through a SSH session...... saved my neck, that did.

So, for me terminal/ssh and all the other developer stuff is essential. Given the underlying OS on the iPhone, that should be no problem at all. Except from willingness from Apple.

Edit: That should be 3,000 km, not miles

SpaceJello
Jan 11, 2007, 01:15 PM
Exactly my thoughts...Apple just did it right, period. Every other smartphone is scary to say the least, and made just for geeks or those execs that also prefer Windows over OS X...their interfaces are just awful, and no comparison can be made with the iPhone...not at all.

Same here, I had the Palm twice in my life, T5 and E. They were horrible to use and sync even back in the day when I was on Windows. Everyone knows that the iPod claim to fame isn't the fact that it was THE most technologically advanced or with the most "features" or being the first mp3 player in the market. It's the design. SIMPLE.

Freak, I don't know why the other companies can't get it through their head. WE WANT SIMPLE TO USE THINGS. I don't have the time of day to sit down and read the whole manual for my phone or pda in order to get it to work. I want something that's right out of the box.

jjthomps
Jan 11, 2007, 01:16 PM
So we agree, the iPhone of today is not the death of Palm. (The iPhone of tomorrow will have to compete with the Palm (etc.) of tomorrow.)

And I can easily use the Palm for taking notes at meetings without having to look at the device, and without having to crowd the space with my laptop.


And I will instantly buy the >=80GB Video iPod which uses the same screen and UI as the iPhone!)

How do you do quick notes with a Treo? I used to with my Tungsten and Grafitti, but the Treo doesn't support that shorthand that I learned over the years..... I can't/won't type fast enough with the QWERTY on my Treo. I'm sure the same will hold true on the iPhone.

I also would buy this device as an 80Gig Video iPod only.

Another feature that is not shown, but will probably be easily added is audio recording, and video camera. Both of which I use with the treo. Audio for meetings, and video for more than I care to admit.

Paladin
Jan 11, 2007, 01:21 PM
While I do think the LG phone has a similar interface, I think it's impossible that Apple could've ripped off, built and presented a similar interface in 25 days. Not to mention, they also had to design and build a similar looking phone in that same time frame. We simply have two phones based around a 3.5" touchscreen. How different could the dialing interfaces be?

Considering that this project was started 2.5 years ago, with all of the patents and rumors along the way, I'd say it's more likely that LG is trying to rip off Apple.

wildmac
Jan 11, 2007, 01:25 PM
There's no way Apple won't allow this. It's a feature of every bluetooth phone (again, my ancient se t610 can do it).

Cingular might block it but it would be insane for Apple to hobble the device like that.

However, at EDGE speeds I don't know why you'd bother unless in an emergency.

Well, I spent 2 hours in SFO yesterday waiting for my flight to return home from MacWorld, and there is NO free wireless in any of the airports. And I'm not going to pay TMobile $20 for 2 hours of WiFi time.

Those are the situations I want my phone to be able to act as a modem for my laptop.

But I still bet you that Apple won't have that feature. (Just like Jobs and the 1-button mouse)

Lepton
Jan 11, 2007, 01:26 PM
I wonder what the calendar app looks like on this thing. I was barely mentioned, but is an important function. And, wasn't there also a PODCAST icon on the device?

stcanard
Jan 11, 2007, 01:27 PM
It's hard to tell, but the apps on the iPhone look considerably similar to Dashboard—maybe they were testing the interface waters a little—and thus there may be something similar to Dashcode, but for the iPhone.

Would the fact that Jobs referred to them as "widgets" during the keynote provide some hints as to why the similarities?

If I had to guess, I would say that on the first iteration, applications will be locked, first or second party only, and widgets would be open -- the nature of widgets present far less danger of instability to the OS as a whole.

Zadillo
Jan 11, 2007, 01:30 PM
So we agree, the iPhone of today is not the death of Palm. (The iPhone of tomorrow will have to compete with the Palm (etc.) of tomorrow.)

And as to your questions: I have pdf:s that crash my printer! But I also have pdf:s that work fine on Palm, and that I can always have with me for reference. The same goes for word-documents. The iPhone did not seem to have any ebook-reader capabilities as of today in any format. And I can easily use the Palm for taking notes at meetings without having to look at the device, and without having to crowd the space with my laptop. Two important things (for me) that the iPhone does not have. I also have some 3rd party stuff that I would really miss: a star map, tide tables etc. Highly specialised narrow stuff that I doubt I will ever find in a stock release of a iPhone.

(And I have an iPod. Which I bought for the design, not the functionality. I also have a macbook, a couple of PCs, some Palms, mobile phones, etc. etc. And I will instantly buy the >=80GB Video iPod which uses the same screen and UI as the iPhone!)

I don't know that the iPhone will be the death of Palm as much as Palm will be the death of Palm. How much longer can Palm last with the same old Treo design, the same hacked up Palm OS, etc.? Even with them now offering Windows Mobile it seems like other cellphone manufacturers are making better devices.

I dig my Treo 650 for the most part, but it seems like whatever creative minds there were at Palm and Handspring are long since gone, and it's like Palm has just been spinning their wheels (that's not to mention Palm's almost complete abandonment of non-smartphone PDA's).

migue
Jan 11, 2007, 01:34 PM
While I do think the LG phone has a similar interface, I think it's impossible that Apple could've ripped off, built and presented a similar interface in 25 days. Not to mention, they also had to design and build a similar looking phone in that same time frame. We simply have two phones based around a 3.5" touchscreen. How different could the dialing interfaces be?

Considering that this project was started 2.5 years ago, with all of the patents and rumors along the way, I'd say it's more likely that LG is trying to rip off Apple.

LG's Prada-branded phone interface apparently is totally different from the iPhone's and maybe it has a more traditional touchschreen, as can be seen in this pic from gismodo circulated two weeks ago. Touchschreens have been there for ages, even the old Sony Ericsson P900 variants and Windows Mobile 5 support touchscreen input, and they normally do not work so good.
The similitude just appears because they used an Aqua-esque wallpaper. It's a nice concept, better designed than most, and with tabs and lateral buttons, but nowhere close to iPhone's all multitouch interface from what I can see.

http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2006/12/ke8502.jpg

wildmac
Jan 11, 2007, 01:38 PM
Mr. Metz from PC Mag says it all:

"For all of ten minutes. Ten minutes isn't much, but I can safely say that the iPhone is even more impressive than it appeared during the Jobs keyote. And that's saying something."

Conclusion? Palm is dead, Treo is dead, every other high-end mobile phone is dead...Apple leads yet another revolution...simply amazing.

I will get one as soon as it comes, no question about it.

No, no no.... there are many business needs that Apple has not shown with the iPhone...

1) Who cares about push email from a yahoo account?... business users will need GoodLink.

2) using it as a modem. (tethering). that is also a necessity.

3) 3rd party specialized apps.

4) as mentioned already, SSH and other types of communications options.

5) can't synch over bluetooth?... even a Treo does that.

Right now the iPhone is very slick, and will be a hit with the "in" crowd, but the business users that are the bulk of the market for $500 smartphones and who pay the data charges these phones require will need at least some of the above issues dealt with.

mick4394
Jan 11, 2007, 01:46 PM
No, no no.... there are many business needs that Apple has not shown with the iPhone...

1) Who cares about push email from a yahoo account?... business users will need GoodLink.

2) using it as a modem. (tethering). that is also a necessity.

3) 3rd party specialized apps.

4) as mentioned already, SSH and other types of communications options.

5) can't synch over bluetooth?... even a Treo does that.

Right now the iPhone is very slick, and will be a hit with the "in" crowd, but the business users that are the bulk of the market for $500 smartphones and who pay the data charges these phones require will need at least some of the above issues dealt with.

Agreed. I don't view the iPhone as a business class phone. I view it as a Sidekick class phone with a business class price.

joeshell383
Jan 11, 2007, 01:47 PM
Also lets be fair the iPhone copied/borrowed stuff from Palm such as the ringer/silent switch function, threaded SMS, the famous home button/home screen, phone app etc but thats ok they took the good stuff and improved on them so im not complaining.

Also, the interface is completely ripped off of Vista. If this is what Leopard looks like, than Apple will have copied MICROSOFT.

joeshell383
Jan 11, 2007, 01:52 PM
Don't you think the iPhone (from what we've seen) looks like an ideal platform for dashboard style widgets?

They are really easy to write yourself. We just need to wait to see if Apple will allow this but I don't know why people think Apple will lock this down to 1st party apps. It seems like an ideal platform for 3rd party stuff.

Imagine if they included (or you could create/import):
A dictionary/thesaurus with audio
A calculator/tip calculator/graphing calculator
A translator with audio
etc...

You wouldn't need any of those individual devices/internet and it would be easily accessible on the large full color screen.

edoates
Jan 11, 2007, 01:53 PM
If it is true, though, that the battery is not easily user-replaceable on the fly, that aspect may be a "learning experience" for Apple. It's one thing to be without an iPod for a few days while the battery is replaced, but a cell phone is different. People rely on them, and the broader cell phone market, which is what Apple is aiming for, is not going to accept it. I would hope that somehow they've made battery replacement easier, even just to the extent of making the case easier to open.

I'm a huge iPhone supporter, by the way. I think the multi-touch screen and the "convergence" as people call it of web, computing, media, and phone functions is the best realized yet, by far. But I did recently learn how difficult battery replacement is with my old 4G iPod.

The battery issue is easily resolved by third parties. The iPhone has a regular iPod doc connector which can supply power: so just create a battery pack which clips onto the iPhone connector and viola: a spare battery. These things already exist for iPods.

Ed

rt_brained
Jan 11, 2007, 02:00 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)
Indeed, Palm CEO had suggested that Apple would have difficulties in entering the phone market after Palm had "learned and struggled for a few years here figuring out how to make a decent phone".

Oh, absolutely...assuming Palm's design and R&D team are on par with Apple's.

mick4394
Jan 11, 2007, 02:05 PM
Oh, absolutely...assuming Palm's design and R&D team are on par with those at Apple.

What the Treo does do is take some punishment. I doubt that the iPhone will be the tank that the Treo is. Apple designers sure know how to make great looking hardware, but often times pretty devices are also fragile devices. Ipods aren't exactly known for their toughness.

sishaw
Jan 11, 2007, 02:06 PM
The battery issue is easily resolved by third parties. The iPhone has a regular iPod doc connector which can supply power: so just create a battery pack which clips onto the iPhone connector and viola: a spare battery. These things already exist for iPods.

Ed

Eh, it's not that easy. Just getting the case open is a pain, and one false move and you tear a tiny ribbon cable and you're SOL. Or, you have to be without the device for a few days--as I said, not a tragedy for a luxury item, but undoable for someone who needs their phone every day. It's not a big issue, and frankly, it doesn't bother me personally (there's no way I'm not getting one of these, unless it's because Apple comes out with something even more amazing using this technology), but Apple is entering a new market where expectations are different, and being able to pop in a space battery on the fly is one of those expectations. I agree the external battery pack is a solution, albeit not an elegant one.

50548
Jan 11, 2007, 02:08 PM
No, no no.... there are many business needs that Apple has not shown with the iPhone...

1) Who cares about push email from a yahoo account?... business users will need GoodLink.

2) using it as a modem. (tethering). that is also a necessity.

3) 3rd party specialized apps.

4) as mentioned already, SSH and other types of communications options.

5) can't synch over bluetooth?... even a Treo does that.

Right now the iPhone is very slick, and will be a hit with the "in" crowd, but the business users that are the bulk of the market for $500 smartphones and who pay the data charges these phones require will need at least some of the above issues dealt with.

Sorry, but I am a normal business user as most execs out there...and this also means I DON'T need 90% of what you mentioned there...

1 - the iPhone has almost universal email access, including MS Exchange...and that's what most people need and use;

2 - using it as a modem? What for, if every civilized notebook out there already has wi-fi, BT, ethernet and (gasp) modem?

3 - 3rd party apps for what, specifically? You've got media, browser, calendar, widgets, mail and, more importantly, a phone that works with no hassles...every other need is a niche;

4 - SSH? I've never used it on a desktop machine...and I won't use it on a phone either;

5 - BT syncing is just coming, believe me...it's simple and it's gonna be there.

As a final comment, I think you guys should tell the difference between the needs of MR members and the needs of 90% of the target market out there, formed by lawyers, execs, secretaries, teenagers, commuters...not necessarily programmers or very specialized technicians.

The iPhone is close to complete and wonderful...and it set the bar pretty high for anyone else...trust me.

rish
Jan 11, 2007, 02:29 PM
No, no no.... there are many business needs that Apple has not shown with the iPhone...

1) Who cares about push email from a yahoo account?... business users will need GoodLink.

2) using it as a modem. (tethering). that is also a necessity.

3) 3rd party specialized apps.

4) as mentioned already, SSH and other types of communications options.

5) can't synch over bluetooth?... even a Treo does that.

Right now the iPhone is very slick, and will be a hit with the "in" crowd, but the business users that are the bulk of the market for $500 smartphones and who pay the data charges these phones require will need at least some of the above issues dealt with.

This device is for the general consumer who enjoys purchasing a device with sheer kudos and ease of use.

However lets not forget that FCC approval will take time and the intro device will be improved upon by the time its released to market.

shawnce
Jan 11, 2007, 02:29 PM
That's not good... :(

LOL why?

Are you implying that Apple looked at photos of the LG device, decided to copy the design and had a working prototype (nearly fully functional... enough to start the FCC process) going in less then a month?

Folks LG and Apple developed similar products using similar concepts (large touch screen) but clearly differences exist between the two products (IMHO iPhone has the superior implementation of touch UI)... and the development of one did not precede the development of the other by any reasonable measure of time.

rish
Jan 11, 2007, 02:31 PM
Sorry, but I am a normal business user as most execs out there...and this also means I DON'T need 90% of what you mentioned there...

1 - the iPhone has almost universal email access, including MS Exchange...and that's what most people need and use;

2 - using it as a modem? What for, if every civilized notebook out there already has wi-fi, BT, ethernet and (gasp) modem?

3 - 3rd party apps for what, specifically? You've got media, browser, calendar, widgets, mail and, more importantly, a phone that works with no hassles...every other need is a niche;

4 - SSH? I've never used it on a desktop machine...and I won't use it on a phone either;

5 - BT syncing is just coming, believe me...it's simple and it's gonna be there.

As a final comment, I think you guys should tell the difference between the needs of MR members and the needs of 90% of the target market out there, formed by lawyers, execs, secretaries, teenagers, commuters...not necessarily programmers or very specialized technicians.

The iPhone is close to complete and wonderful...and it set the bar pretty high for anyone else...trust me.


I couldn't have said it better!

Paladin
Jan 11, 2007, 02:34 PM
Why would Apple include Bluetooth 2.0 with all of these hypothetical limitations? Let me see...we're getting forecasts of no Bluetooth syncing and no tethering. Of course, not one person has any clue that this is actually the case. If Apple wanted to severely limit Bluetooth, then they'd have chosen Verizon as the exclusive. Apple has always embraced Bluetooth, and they will continue to with the iPhone. They didn't put Bluetooth on the phone just so we could wear a stupid looking earpiece into our local restaurants. Yeah, it wasn't shown in the keynote, but that doesn't mean that the functionality won't be there.

newrigel
Jan 11, 2007, 02:39 PM
I'm sooo glad that Apple came out with a device that is USEABLE! OS X mobile is the key to innovative products that will keep Apple on top of their game. I don't care if they don't support PS on it... The thing is... it does what it's supposed to do and integration is whats going to be Apples strong points! Apple has always done that and their doing it again...
Where's that OCTAL MacPro!:(

whatever
Jan 11, 2007, 03:09 PM
No, no no.... there are many business needs that Apple has not shown with the iPhone...

1) Who cares about push email from a yahoo account?... business users will need GoodLink.

2) using it as a modem. (tethering). that is also a necessity.

3) 3rd party specialized apps.

4) as mentioned already, SSH and other types of communications options.

5) can't synch over bluetooth?... even a Treo does that.

Right now the iPhone is very slick, and will be a hit with the "in" crowd, but the business users that are the bulk of the market for $500 smartphones and who pay the data charges these phones require will need at least some of the above issues dealt with.
Modems? Is this 2007 or 1980? Using a traditional modem (tethering) is a thing of the past. Who does that? Between WiFi in McDonalds to Broadband cards, why would I want to kill my Cell phones battery and lug around an unnecceary cable?

As far as the Bluetooth syncing goes. That means a lot of different things to different people. Syncing iTunes, I doubt it, because the content is too large. But syncing files, maybe.

Who said there are no 3rd party apps? For all we know there will be an iPhone store as a part of iTunes in June, filled with 3rd party apps.

No one will really know until the FCC gives it the green light and hands it off to the consumers.

doctorgregg
Jan 11, 2007, 03:12 PM
Reading the several early evaluations of the iPhone is like re-reading historical events that are often forgotten and never learned.

After the initial "wow" reaction upon the final unveiling of the iPhone we see much posturing about how the iPhone is "vaporware" and how it really doesn't meet the so-called network (3G) and prosumer expectations. After all, didn't we hear similar protestations when the first iPod was released?

I for one did not expect anything like what was finally enveiled on Tuesday. I am quite happy to overlook the apparent short-comings of this device until I am able to purchase one later this year. After struggling with finding a few good applications to run on my current BlackBerry 3700 series I am not at all frustrated with the currently closed development for the iPhone - I have no doubt, though, that more apps will be written for this device. :)

jettredmont
Jan 11, 2007, 03:28 PM
Yeah, Jobs seemed to leave it purposefully vague. The tech-specs state that you can get 5 hours of talk, video playback, or browsing, but I am fairly confident that these activities were not measured at the same time. So this means you can do 2 hours of talk, 1 hour of video, and 2 hours of wifi use in one battery session, but not at the same time. That said, I doubt even these numbers. It is easy to manipulate battery life figures - are you testing with a strong cellular signal, or a weak signal? Are these real world, or lab tests? I bet most users will have Wifi on and cellphone on - does this mean that your phone will work for a total of 2 hours max?

No other slim phone has every gotten good battery life. That is the tradeoff for slimness, and one of the primary reasons the Treo is so thick. While Apple's engineering is incredible, it seems hard to believe that they have solved this one industry-wide problem in a device that looks more power-hungry then any other.

First off, of COURSE "five hours of A, B, or C" means that you can do any ONE of those for five hours (or a combination adding up to five hours).

Second, "I bet most users will have Wifi on and cellphone on". Umm, yeah, probably, but the cellphone will be in standby, which probably has about the battery life of the Treo in standby, which is around 300 hours (give or take).

Third, "It is easy to manipulate battery life figures - are you testing with a strong cellular signal, or a weak signal? Are these real world, or lab tests?" Of course it is. That's why the Treo's claimed 5 hours of talk time is really more like 2 hours of talk + goof around in WM5 time. All cell phone rated times are in ideal, strong cell tower situations. I expect Apples were, too (I mean, there is no "typical" situation for cell phones, and talk time can go from five hours with a strong tower to about thirty minutes on the fringe outskirts of a tower's range).

So, I trust Apple's "5 hours" estimate just as much as I trust Palms (and Moto's, and Nokia's and Sanyo's, etc). Which is: I know 5 hours is about 2 hours of solid talk/usage time. That's what I get on my Treo, and that ratio is what I got on my LG phone before it. It's not a matter of the tests being rigged: it's a matter of the only common comparison that anyone can trust is "idealized conditions", and everyone (for the most part) degrades from that at the same rate.

Ljot
Jan 11, 2007, 03:39 PM
How do you do quick notes with a Treo? I used to with my Tungsten and Grafitti, but the Treo doesn't support that shorthand that I learned over the years..... I can't/won't type fast enough with the QWERTY on my Treo. I'm sure the same will hold true on the iPhone.


I don't. That is why I use a Tungsten and a separate (paired) GSM-phone. Unfair comparison with the iPhone? Maybe, but didn't somebody say something about being 5 years ahead?

And regarding 3G in the iPhone. I did some quick calculations of estimated talk-time. One thing we can be fairly sure of is that Apple has not found a radical new battery type, so we can safely assume that they have the same Wh/kg as everybody else. We have the iPhone at 135 grams with a talktime of 5 hours for GSM. The SonyEricsson W950i has a weight of 112 grams and a talk-time of 7.5 hours for GSM/ 2.5 hours for UMTS. If we assume that Apple and SonyEricsson are equally good at designing low-power radios, this would give the iPhone a hypothetical UMTS talk-time of 1.7 hours. Not to bad, but not very good either. (I am still curious about the stand-by time of the iPhone: it is not given in the specs...)

matticus008
Jan 11, 2007, 03:43 PM
So, I trust Apple's "5 hours" estimate just as much as I trust Palms (and Moto's, and Nokia's and Sanyo's, etc). Which is: I know 5 hours is about 2 hours of solid talk/usage time. That's what I get on my Treo, and that ratio is what I got on my LG phone before it.
I get a solid 4 hours of talk time out of my T-Mobile MDA (which I use with Cingular service due to professional commitments), and it's over a year old. I have absolutely no problem believing that the iPhone can hold 5 hours of talk time; iPod battery life is exactly as advertised (I get 12-13 hours out of my first generation nano, and my full-sized iPod is still going strong after almost 3 years, too).

this would give the iPhone a hypothetical UMTS talk-time of 1.7 hours. Not to bad, but not very good either. (I am still curious about the stand-by time of the iPhone: it is not given in the specs...)
Except that the iPhone doesn't support UMTS, so GSM time would easily reach the 5 hours quoted, even using your dubious model.

Thanatoast
Jan 11, 2007, 03:43 PM
Steve said that phone calls are the killer app for the iPhone, but I think he's being disingenuous. You can get any number of phones that make acceptable calls. The UI is the killer app on the iPhone. As mentioned everywhere, this phone has few truly "new" features, but what it has is implemented so seamlessly, so elegantly that they seem like a whole new experience.

I am eagerly awaiting the new innovations that occur following the release of this UI. Perhaps now we know why we haven't seen those Leopard secret features? And also perhaps why we may be getting new displays soon? :D :cool:

Ljot
Jan 11, 2007, 03:54 PM
Except that the iPhone doesn't support UMTS, so GSM time would easily reach the 5 hours quoted, even using your dubious model.

I know. This was just an observation in the pervasive "iPhone will have 3G when launched in europe" discussion. And weights and efficiency measures are some of the better ways to make estimates regarding mobile tech, in my experience and humble opinion.

annexw
Jan 11, 2007, 03:56 PM
2 - using it as a modem? What for, if every civilized notebook out there already has wi-fi, BT, ethernet and (gasp) modem?

Except the Macbook and Macbook Pros, where you have to buy the modem separately. ;) Sometimes you don't access to wireless, BT, Ethernet or a land line. At those times, tethering is a life-saver. I will admit I'm thinking of rather specialized situations, but I live near the oil patch so these things can come up with buyers.

I have no doubt the new phone will sell well once it gets FCC approval and ships, but until you have a customer release unit in hand there is no "for sure" information. People have played with a demo unit and demo's don't always stack -up to the real thing. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse.

It will be interesting to see one, if it ever makes it to Canada. :)

matticus008
Jan 11, 2007, 04:04 PM
I know. This was just an observation in the pervasive "iPhone will have 3G when launched in europe" discussion. And weights and efficiency measures are some of the better ways to make estimates regarding mobile tech, in my experience and humble opinion.
We'll just have to see. We don't know what the SOC consumption will be, since we don't have many hardware details, and since the battery seems to be integrated, the upshot to that is that it can be substantially larger than a removable one. Existing cell phone batteries also don't exactly lead the way in terms of efficiency, though maybe Ericsson is better than others (namely Motorola). The W950 and the iPhone may also have radically different power management capabilities, and as a mixed-use device, its biggest problem will be people watching 30 minute TV shows, listening to 6 hours of music, and then being surprised by a limited 2-hour talk time.

wildmac
Jan 11, 2007, 04:05 PM
Agreed. I don't view the iPhone as a business class phone. I view it as a Sidekick class phone with a business class price.

Totally. They need a lot more features/solutions to convince the business crowd, who are the major buyers of Treos. etc.

clevin
Jan 11, 2007, 04:11 PM
if there is anything this iphone brought to me, is the thoughts of getting a palm.... cheaper, Im already with cingular, and im satisfied with my Nokia 3200. but a PDA sounds good now....

Ljot
Jan 11, 2007, 04:11 PM
...and since the battery seems to be integrated, the upshot to that is that it can be substantially larger than a removable one.

And that is why you compare the weights of the devices: a certain mass of LiIon-battery does have a certain capacity (more or less). No way around it. The weights thus show that they can't have stuffed a very large battery inside the iPhone. And battery efficiency is depending on chemistry: Motorola, Nokia and SonyEricsson have the same types. But they differ in power management in the electronics.

Otherwise I agree: we will have to wait and see.

wildmac
Jan 11, 2007, 04:11 PM
Modems? Is this 2007 or 1980? Using a traditional modem (tethering) is a thing of the past. Who does that? Between WiFi in McDonalds to Broadband cards, why would I want to kill my Cell phones battery and lug around an unnecceary cable?

As far as the Bluetooth syncing goes. That means a lot of different things to different people. Syncing iTunes, I doubt it, because the content is too large. But syncing files, maybe.

Who said there are no 3rd party apps? For all we know there will be an iPhone store as a part of iTunes in June, filled with 3rd party apps.


Ahem.

In the past three days, I spent 4+ hours sitting in airports, (LAX and SFO) with NO public WiFi capability. You want WiFi?.. you have to pay TMobile $20/day. A business-class phone needs to be able to be used as a modem to access wireless services with your laptop. (Or you can buy a card for that, but that's a separate data charge for that).

Did Jobs announce that 3rd party developers were welcomed?... not yet.

He did say no wireless synching. That sucks. Having to dock to charge, and to just update your contacts bites.

rish
Jan 11, 2007, 04:16 PM
First off, of COURSE "five hours of A, B, or C" means that you can do any ONE of those for five hours (or a combination adding up to five hours).

Second, "I bet most users will have Wifi on and cellphone on". Umm, yeah, probably, but the cellphone will be in standby, which probably has about the battery life of the Treo in standby, which is around 300 hours (give or take).

Third, "It is easy to manipulate battery life figures - are you testing with a strong cellular signal, or a weak signal? Are these real world, or lab tests?" Of course it is. That's why the Treo's claimed 5 hours of talk time is really more like 2 hours of talk + goof around in WM5 time. All cell phone rated times are in ideal, strong cell tower situations. I expect Apples were, too (I mean, there is no "typical" situation for cell phones, and talk time can go from five hours with a strong tower to about thirty minutes on the fringe outskirts of a tower's range).

So, I trust Apple's "5 hours" estimate just as much as I trust Palms (and Moto's, and Nokia's and Sanyo's, etc). Which is: I know 5 hours is about 2 hours of solid talk/usage time. That's what I get on my Treo, and that ratio is what I got on my LG phone before it. It's not a matter of the tests being rigged: it's a matter of the only common comparison that anyone can trust is "idealized conditions", and everyone (for the most part) degrades from that at the same rate.

Good score.

I have a Tungsten. Battery lasts for ages. Do I want to use it no, only when I absolutely have to and even then very briefly. Reason why my battery lasts for ages.

I have a Sony K750i mobile/cell phone. Battery lasts for ages. Do I want to use it, no only when I have to bloody use it. Until Tuesday it was one of the best phones out there but even then listening to music is crap, calling people is unpleasureable because the damn joystick doesn't always scroll down my address book. I have to hold the relevant key to bring up a list of people I might want to call, that buttons screwed as well. Hey the flaming screen freezes not to mention loss of resolution. So it stays on stand by hence my battery lasts for ages.

Apple Phone. Yes I would flaming well use it to the hilt. I have an ipod cable I can connect to a usb/firwire port to charge it, I could charge it in my car, hey I can charge the thing (possibly, won't know until I get it) on my portable charger.

Am I concerned about battery life. Hell no, at least I'll use it and feel happy using it.

No more upgrading my phone looking for that elusive all in one package in a cool design and UI/OS. Haha, its finely alive, its alive (even if it is for a couple of hours!).

Hunabku
Jan 11, 2007, 04:20 PM
Phew! I just spent the last day trying to sync a treo 650 with address book and ical. Had to buy 3rd party software "Missing Sync" to pull it off & even then there were all kinds of hoops to jump through.

Bottom line - USABILITY! Current smartphones for the average user are about as far away from usability as imaginable. Not totally the problem of the manufactures or the carriers but rather a lack of coherence between the two and a lack focus on the total user experience.

Apple IS the only company with the background, technology and vision to deliver on the total experience. Sure others will excel in niche and more technical applications but Apple is poised to smoke em all in the marketplace at large.

I'mAMac
Jan 11, 2007, 04:23 PM
i think its amazing

mick4394
Jan 11, 2007, 04:23 PM
Totally. They need a lot more features/solutions to convince the business crowd, who are the major buyers of Treos. etc.

Agreed. I don't personally use a smartphone, but you'd have to pry my wife's Treo out of her cold, dead hand. I've tried to convince her that there are better solutions, these days, but she doesn't care. The Treo does everything that she wants it to do, and she knows how to use it. Also, contrary to what others have posted in this thread, it's reliable. She's been using the same one for the past three years.

It does not matter how cool and iPhone is, or a Q or Blackjack for that matter. A lot of people don't have the time or inclination to learn a new device/system.

This is all without even mentioning the fact that Apple's never built a phone, and Apple's Rev A hardware is traditionally problematic. People who use these smartphones rely on them like no other device. If my wife's Treo broke, it would be a catastrophic event. She keeps her whole life on that damn thing.

All this being said, I do think the iPhone will be a hit with the younger folks, and a large portion of the Mac crowd. I just don't think it will be a hit of iPod proportions. Personally, I have a 5G iPod. I have a phone. I have a Macbook. I don't need a six hundred dollar mac/ipod/cellphone combo.

GregA
Jan 11, 2007, 04:34 PM
My prediction....

The iPhone will go the way of the G4 Cube.

Check back here 1 year after it finally makes market and we will see if I am right.

Hey, MacRumors developers.... what we need (I think) is a feature to let us make predictions and lock them against our name. It'd be GREAT to look at someone's previous predictions and accuracy :)

Ljot
Jan 11, 2007, 04:35 PM
One thing just hit me: There seems to be no on/off-button? The top button is "wake", and presumably the mobile phone part is still running even when "sleeping" so that calls can be recieved. I really hope that there is an easy way to shut the device completely down, and in addition to that, a "flight mode" with everything running except the mobile phone/WiFi/BT. Otherwise you will not be able to bring it on an airplane...
But I am fairly confident that this will be solved in the final phone. You will still have to convince the stewardess that the mobile phone is really off when playing with it...
(Does anybody know if the sound on/off button on the side has tactile feedback on the position?)

Hunabku
Jan 11, 2007, 04:44 PM
I agree that apple is way better at addressing the consumer user experience than the business user's. However, if they would just pour more energy into the business arena, they are so poised to capture tons of new business users - because there are practically zero "round trip" friendly business solutions out there.

Apple spend some time improving .Mac. Let business user host .coms there with large capacity IMAP mail services. When they are on the road, let them sync their desktop contacts and calendars with their phones' - just like you support with laptops. You can keep the whole package geared for mac business users (forget PCs let them continue to struggle with the hodge podge)

After all business users are not different from consumer users - they just want to get it done, have it be seamless and even fun too!

GregA
Jan 11, 2007, 04:49 PM
makes me wonder though ... which orientation the screen would think it was in when places flat on its back? Maybe there is a manual selection for that too?
I imagine that as you place it on a table, it'd keep the last setting. Of course, if you rotate it 90' to show the person next to you a nice pic, you don't want the picture to reorient itself towards you again. Interesting question you have there!

I also wonder what happens if you keep rotating it... ie does it reorient when it's upside down too?

shadowfax
Jan 11, 2007, 04:51 PM
If, and only if, Apple makes it open for 3rd party developers. As it was presented, there is a lot of functionality from my Palm that is missing (ebook reader, MS office doc. support, pdf reader, sync with MS Office, games etc.)
I doubt palm is dead, but really..... 3rd party apps continue to bloat my Treo 700p.

How many times have you had a PDF that wouldn't load on your Palm? How long does it take? Wouldn't it be easier just to open up a laptop and look at it. I know it would be for me.

You know, I don't understand why anyone would want a PDF reader on the iPhone--the Adobe PDF readers are pretty clunky on Windows, and even OS X, slow as crap and a serious pain. but, recall that OS X natively supports PDF--as in, a lot of its graphics are rendered as pdf objects. Their pdf "reader" Preview is fast as all hell. I would be very, very, very surprised if you couldn't open an e-mail with an attached pdf and either view it RIGHT IN THE E-MAIL like in OS X Mail, at snappy-as-jpg speeds. Steve is a nutcase when it comes to email, he's been into making e-mails look smooth and perfect since frickin' NeXT.

I think there are going to be a number of features on the iPhone that haven't been touted yet. Look at the keynote, it was an hour and a half almost, just on that phone. He doesn't have time to talk about MS Office document support, PDF support, etc. Talking that kind of thing up is for a phone that's so POS that that's the best thing about it, or at best, a phone that's been around so long that it's part of a new feature addition suite.

moreover, i can't help but wonder if it will support custom Quicktime codecs... at least eventually. That will be badass. However, I'm going to go ahead and guess that it's probably in the iPhone's interest in terms of success as a product for them to restrict who can develop on the platform, the way they have for the iPod. At the same time, it's OS X-based, and it will garner a following that will make the Newton seem like the least popular PDA ever, so I would expect that someone will figure out how to hack stuff onto it...

clevin
Jan 11, 2007, 04:55 PM
this one looks good
http://www.palm.com/us/products/mobilemanagers/lifedrive/blazer.epl
$399

Zadillo
Jan 11, 2007, 05:00 PM
this one looks good
http://www.palm.com/us/products/mobilemanagers/lifedrive/blazer.epl
$399

The LifeDrive is one of the worst products that Palm has launched. It is clunky, and it also is becoming even less supported. It was Palm's last attempt at making a non-Treo Palm, and it failed to catch on. Now Palm is putting their llast remaining support into the Treo product line.

Also note that the LifeDrive has a mechanical hard drive in it, not flash. You're better off with a Treo and a 4GB SDHC (the only thing the LifeDrive has going for it is a bigger screen, but even there, a Tungsten X and a large SDHC card or something would be better).

Also, Blazer is a really terrible and slow web browser. But options are limited on the Palm platform (there is Opera Mini for the Palm OS now, but it is really buggy, and crashes my Treo 650 constantly).

Seriously, if you're going to get any kind of Palm, you might as well get a Treo, as it's the only product line Palm is even showing some kind of support for (even though the Palm OS itself is still a mess and no longer being developed beyond whatever hacks they cram into it).

Media playback is pretty terrible too; pTunes is ok, but doesn't have much on the music playing capabilities demonstrated in the iPhone. And for media viewing, you are basically limited to the Core Media Player, which doesn't perform very well on it.

But really, I would stay away from the LifeDrive. One of Palm's biggest failures as a device. The fact that they are still selling it for $399 is remarkable, and I think puts the $499 price of the 4GB iPhone in perspective.

clevin
Jan 11, 2007, 05:05 PM
The LifeDrive is one of the worst products that Palm has launched. It is clunky, and it also is becoming even less supported. It was Palm's last attempt at making a non-Treo Palm, and it failed to catch on. Now Palm is putting their llast remaining support into the Treo product line.

Also note that the LifeDrive has a mechanical hard drive in it, not flash. You're better off with a Treo and a 4GB SDHC (the only thing the LifeDrive has going for it is a bigger screen, but even there, a Tungsten X and a large SDHC card or something would be better).

Also, Blazer is a really terrible and slow web browser. But options are limited on the Palm platform (there is Opera Mini for the Palm OS now, but it is really buggy, and crashes my Treo 650 constantly).

Seriously, if you're going to get any kind of Palm, you might as well get a Treo, as it's the only product line Palm is even showing some kind of support for (even though the Palm OS itself is still a mess and no longer being developed beyond whatever hacks they cram into it).

Media playback is pretty terrible too; pTunes is ok, but doesn't have much on the music playing capabilities demonstrated in the iPhone. And for media viewing, you are basically limited to the Core Media Player, which doesn't perform very well on it.

But really, I would stay away from the LifeDrive. One of Palm's biggest failures as a device. The fact that they are still selling it for $399 is remarkable, and I think puts the $499 price of the 4GB iPhone in perspective.

oh, how about palm tx?
these are only products of palm with large screen and Wi-Fi

matticus008
Jan 11, 2007, 05:06 PM
And that is why you compare the weights of the devices:
If by 'devices' you mean 'batteries' then I agree, with a few caveats. It's an illogical jump to draw any conclusion from the total weight of a device. My PowerBook weighs 5.7 pounds, but the battery life is far better than my 8.2 pound Dell Latitude.

This, of course, is not to mention the fact that the battery formulation is unknown. It could be Li-polymer, it could be Li-ion, it could use substantially lightweight cell packaging (which accounts for a not insignificant percentage of total mass). If we had more details, we could make a guess with a better foundation.

Comparing weights is a decent guess for normal cell phones, since you can compare dozens that weigh roughly the same, but once you start getting into smartphone-class devices, it is no longer reliable. Some have sliding keyboards, some have built-in keyboards, some have no keyboards, some have bigger screens, some have metal cases, some have a built-in stylus, etc. 5 grams here and 10 grams there makes a big difference in something this small.

daneoni
Jan 11, 2007, 05:09 PM
So you're saying you're going to pay for and carry around both a Treo and iPhone ??

IF(and a big if) i have the money by the time the iPhone launches in Europe, why not. Business & Pleasure.

JGowan
Jan 11, 2007, 05:16 PM
I remember reading shortly after ZUNE came on the scene, that some MS rep had said (paraphrase): "We're looking at the Zune as a long-term product. We probably will catch up in 5-10 years and grow features along the way".

I was shocked by this attitude. Why enter the market if you'd have something remotely as good as the competition. They even came in at the same price... and STILL with much less on the complete experience.

Apple decided to enter the phone market and I thought they were crazy as there are some sophicated things out there. But they decided to blow everyone away and enter on top with a superior product. It might not have EVERY SINGLE thing that EVERY SINGLE phone has, but what it does (and it does a lot), it does slicker and cooler than anything I've seen.

People complain about the price, but the iPod was first perceived as too expensive. It was only $100 less than the iPhone 4GB model. 1GB less and $100 more... but to compare the 2 is like night and day. What a difference 5 years makes. You'll also recall that Apple got cheaper and cheaper with the iPod as they continued to make make better and with larger capacity. I wouldn't doubt if Steve knows the specs and details on the next 5 iPhones. Some of the things you feel are lacking will most likely make it in. Why blow your wad all in one place, my dad used to say? The phone will simply get better and cheaper with time, just as the iPod has.

Lastly, the name... I noticed that iPhone was curiously absent on the phone. I'm sure this was done on purpose and I doubt if Apple will ever put the name on it, regardless of how the Cisco suit turns out. The silver logo on the back just says it all. Nothing else is needed.

All-in-all, I think Apple has shown MS (and the world) how to be a beginner and enter a new market. Unless you have VERY deep pockets (and MS does), you just don't enter a market and say "we'll be competitve in 5-10 years". how lame.

Ljot
Jan 11, 2007, 05:20 PM
If by 'devices' you mean 'batteries' then I agree, with a few caveats. It's an illogical jump to draw any conclusion from the total weight of a device. My PowerBook weighs 5.7 pounds, but the battery life is far better than my 8.2 pound Dell Latitude.


My last two comments about this:

1) In the time calculations I am not using the battery weight at all.

2) And I only use the weight to argue that the iPhone probably does not have a very much larger battery than comparable devices. Furthermore: If it had a very large battery, wouldn't they get a better talk-time than 5 hours then, considering that the screen is turned off when in phone position?

(I will not go inte the deeper details of reverse engineering: it would be too hard to remember what I can publicly state etc.)

williwombat1066
Jan 11, 2007, 05:26 PM
Are you kidding?
Apple created this market, Palm followed suit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Newton

http://www.blakespot.com/list/images/mp2100.jpg

Good point.... The Newton was way ahead of it's time. The keynote address was impressive. It's exiting, but I won't ditch my treo too soon, it's most compatible for work

rt_brained
Jan 11, 2007, 05:38 PM
Also, the interface is completely ripped off of Vista. If this is what Leopard looks like, than Apple will have copied MICROSOFT.
Oh god, I can't even bring myself to comment on this one.

daneoni
Jan 11, 2007, 05:38 PM
Can anyone confirm if there's a search function in Contacts?, all i've seen so far is scrolling. No offence but someone with 500 contacts cant be scrolling through the entire book.

Also, any voice dialling/recording??

szark
Jan 11, 2007, 05:39 PM
One thing just hit me: There seems to be no on/off-button? The top button is "wake", and presumably the mobile phone part is still running even when "sleeping" so that calls can be recieved. I really hope that there is an easy way to shut the device completely down...

Well, the iPod doesn't have an on/off button either. It seems logical that you would hold the wake button down for 5 seconds or so to shut it off.

daneoni
Jan 11, 2007, 05:42 PM
Are you kidding?
Apple created this market, Palm followed suit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Newton

http://www.blakespot.com/list/images/mp2100.jpg

Touche. Thinking about it now, the iPhone seems more like a modern Newton. Evolution not revolution.

rt_brained
Jan 11, 2007, 05:43 PM
My prediction....

The iPhone will go the way of the G4 Cube.
What, come back as an even smaller and faster device like the Mac Mini?

Do tell!

shadowfax
Jan 11, 2007, 05:45 PM
Oh god, I can't even bring myself to comment on this one.Something tells me he was kidding... being as he was commenting on the claim that Apple copied palm--perhaps a less straightforward way of saying, "actually, Palm copied Apple before Apple copied Palm..."

matticus008
Jan 11, 2007, 05:48 PM
Furthermore: If it had a very large battery, wouldn't they get a better talk-time than 5 hours then, considering that the screen is turned off when in phone position?
Every phone's screen turns off when you're on the phone. Whether it's 2 seconds or 5 seconds into the call doesn't really make a terribly huge difference. The only thing new about the iPhone in this regard is that it disables the touch surface and automatically turns off the screen with a sensor, rather than with a timer.

Well, the iPod doesn't have an on/off button either. It seems logical that you would hold the wake button down for 5 seconds or so to shut it off.
Yep. Even smartphones with power buttons don't turn off when you press the power button (it just turns the screen off, and depending on settings, sometimes the BT/wifi). You have to hold the button down to invoke a shutdown--and then suffer through the agonizingly long boot process, which is why no one actually turns them off.

Zadillo
Jan 11, 2007, 06:25 PM
oh, how about palm tx?
these are only products of palm with large screen and Wi-Fi

The Palm TX is ok, although even when it first came out the initial reaction was kind of lukewarm (pretty much because it was seen as Palm FINALLY responding to thinks people had been asking for in a Palm PDA for a couple of years..... and by the time the TX came out, it had already been leapfrogged by Windows Mobile-based PocketPC's).

Having said that, really, what exactly are you looking for the device to do? If you're looking for it to be a music player or web browser, I really might suggest looking elsewhere. Even with the TX's or LifeDrive's big screen, Blazer is still a pretty crippled browser.

The bigger thing is that I have a hard time recommending buying into the Palm OS platform now unless you just really like the Palm UI and third party apps available for it. It just seems a little strange to get into the Palm market now, especially with the existing Palm OS dead in the water (Palm isn't doing anything with it, and the new owners of the Palm OS, Access, are working on a new OS called the Access Linux Platform which is intended to be the successor to the Palm OS, but not a whole lot is known about it). Palm themselves seem to be hedging their bets by offering Windows Mobile-based Treos, while trying to make what little incremental improvements they can to the Palm OS on the Treo line.

But Palm has really seemingly given up on the non-Treo PDA market. Not only that, they are encouraging developers to make Treo-only apps, and really pushing that as the main development platform.

Of course, the Windows Mobile PDA market is also facing similar issues; with most of the hardware development coming in Windows Mobile smartphones, etc.

-Zadillo

Zadillo
Jan 11, 2007, 06:27 PM
Every phone's screen turns off when you're on the phone. Whether it's 2 seconds or 5 seconds into the call doesn't really make a terribly huge difference. The only thing new about the iPhone in this regard is that it disables the touch surface and automatically turns off the screen with a sensor, rather than with a timer.


Yep. Even smartphones with power buttons don't turn off when you press the power button (it just turns the screen off, and depending on settings, sometimes the BT/wifi). You have to hold the button down to invoke a shutdown--and then suffer through the agonizingly long boot process, which is why no one actually turns them off.

Yeah, I never turn my Treo off. No point.

I have to say I like the idea of the proximity sensor, not to mention the multitasking capabilities of the iPhone; with my Treo, I've always wanted to be able to be on a call and look up something on the web while talking with someone, and can't do it. That was one of the cooler parts of the demonstration to me at least. Multitasking on the Treo in general seems like a pain.

pianojoe
Jan 11, 2007, 06:27 PM
I've had a Treo 650 for a year and a half, and was thinking about upgrading to a Treo 680 or even maybe a 750w (as much as I dislike Windows Mobile), but those devices both look like jokes now.

I'm upgrading my Treo 650 to a 680 right now. No good waiting for a Phone that will be available in fall (over here in Germany). What I'd like to see:

1. 3rd party apps. I'm a musician, and I have my metronome, tuner, and a pro drum machine on my Treo. This is so handy! Anyone fore VoIP?

2. 3G/UTMS. Online flat rate is $30/month.

3. iSyncing not only via dock, but also via internet AND BT! Please! Cables are so last century.

4. I'm not concerned about battery life. 5hrs talk usually means 100hrs standby, right?

About branding: Over here there's a new business model: Some phone shops take over the phone that you get from your service plan, and give you another phone (for some extra $$, it's clear). This is cool if your carrier doesn't offer the phone model you want.

Phones that don't come with a plan seem to be rare in the U.S. I'm sure Apple will offer a non-branded iPhone in Europe. But without carrier subsidisation, it'll cost $799 or so. Plus 19% tax.

Anyway, I'm going to get me one.

pianojoe
Jan 11, 2007, 06:36 PM
Modems? Is this 2007 or 1980? Using a traditional modem (tethering) is a thing of the past. Who does that? Between WiFi in McDonalds to Broadband cards, why would I want to kill my Cell phones battery and lug around an unnecceary cable?

Believe it or not: I often go online with my MacBook in strange places where WiFi is not available, or heavily overpriced. Connecting to my cell phone via BT (Look, mum! No cable!), and using the Treo as a modem. Works like a charm. The MacBook doesn't have a card slot. Nor has my other notebook, a Powerbook 12".

Actually, not having a modem (which every peasant Nokia phone from three years ago had) would be a dealbreaker for me.

RollTide
Jan 11, 2007, 06:43 PM
not that it is a big deal or anything, but is it a video camera on the iphone, or regular?

sigamy
Jan 11, 2007, 07:24 PM
Palm still has the LifeDrive on their site for $399. The iPhone is a much, much better LifeDrive and Treo.

Palm is hurting.

Zadillo
Jan 11, 2007, 07:29 PM
Palm still has the LifeDrive on their site for $399. The iPhone is a much, much better LifeDrive and Treo.

Palm is hurting.

I have to think the only reason Palm hasn't even bothered lowering the price of the LifeDrive on their site is that no-one is even thinking of buying one of them.

edoates
Jan 11, 2007, 08:28 PM
Eh, it's not that easy. Just getting the case open is a pain, and one false move and you tear a tiny ribbon cable and you're SOL. Or, you have to be without the device for a few days--as I said, not a tragedy for a luxury item, but undoable for someone who needs their phone every day.

I agree: internal replacement is not a good idea unless the phone is built for it. I was advocating external add-on battery packs. Since the iPhone is so thin, I can imagine a 1/4 inch thick battery pack into which the iPhone slides with the iPod connectors mating. Not the most elegant, but it will likely be among the first accessories if battery life turns out to be an issue.

Ed

whatever
Jan 11, 2007, 08:43 PM
Ahem.

In the past three days, I spent 4+ hours sitting in airports, (LAX and SFO) with NO public WiFi capability. You want WiFi?.. you have to pay TMobile $20/day. A business-class phone needs to be able to be used as a modem to access wireless services with your laptop. (Or you can buy a card for that, but that's a separate data charge for that).

Did Jobs announce that 3rd party developers were welcomed?... not yet.

He did say no wireless synching. That sucks. Having to dock to charge, and to just update your contacts bites.

So you want "free" WiFi. Do you also think that airport restauarants should give you their food for free too. I don't understand where people get off about having to pay for a service or a product. Did you know that some airports don't have any WiFi (or even a McDonalds)? I bet if you really needed to use the Internet or were in the airport for a couple of hours you would pay the $20.00.

A business class phone? What is that? You're talking business class, yet you or your company won't pay $20.00 for WiFi access? Something sounds off here.

A lot was not said in the Keynote, until there is an approved product that can be sold why should any promises be made. We were basically given an overview of the product. That's it.

When he said no wireless syncing, what was he referring to? Some people consider connecting to an e-mail service and downloading messages as syncing. Does that mean that won't be available? I'll answer that one, No. I beleive that the syncing that he's referring to is syncing up on the iPod side of things.

And how do you know that 3rd party developers aren't currently developing apps for this product?

mick4394
Jan 11, 2007, 09:46 PM
In the past three days, I spent 4+ hours sitting in airports, (LAX and SFO) with NO public WiFi capability. You want WiFi?.. you have to pay TMobile $20/day. A business-class phone needs to be able to be used as a modem to access wireless services with your laptop. (Or you can buy a card for that, but that's a separate data charge for that).



So you want "free" WiFi. Do you also think that airport restauarants should give you their food for free too. I don't understand where people get off about having to pay for a service or a product. Did you know that some airports don't have any WiFi (or even a McDonalds)? I bet if you really needed to use the Internet or were in the airport for a couple of hours you would pay the $20.00.

A business class phone? What is that? You're talking business class, yet you or your company won't pay $20.00 for WiFi access? Something sounds off here.


I think what wildmac means is that people tend to say things like, who needs 3G when you have Wifi?, as if there's free Wifi everywhere. He's not saying it should be free, just pointing out that it isn't.

I think you're connecting a lot of dots that aren't there.

ssh
Jan 11, 2007, 10:06 PM
The iPhone replaces my Treo 650 the moment I can get one. A real multitasking operating system, a human interface instead of a "user" interface, and a decent iPod all put together. I'm there. I'll miss the one eBook application that I use, but I'll live without it for the rest of this.

Frankly, the iPhone can't be worse than my Treo in terms of stability, and I expect it will be closer to my MacBook. Bring it on!

Those comments from Palm are just proof that they really don't understand the market, even after all this time. They don't understand the need for a real OS (where's their Linux one that's been promised?!?!), they don't understand that the phone has to first be a great phone and just work, and they have been sitting on their PalmPilot laurels for years. Wake up, Palm, or you're toast.

whatever
Jan 11, 2007, 11:48 PM
I think what wildmac means is that people tend to say things like, who needs 3G when you have Wifi?, as if there's free Wifi everywhere. He's not saying it should be free, just pointing out that it isn't.

I think you're connecting a lot of dots that aren't there.

Actually I think all of us are making assumptions about a product that we still know very little about.

I just watched a couple of the Mac Break podcasts from the show and that's the general concensus.

Until users actually get the product in their hands everything here is just hearsay and rumor. But then again this is MacRumors! I can't believe I've once again allowed myself to be suckered into this.

Jim Campbell
Jan 12, 2007, 06:28 AM
... But one potential killer feature I'm surprised no-one's speculated on yet (that I've seen) ...

What if the iPhone runs Apple Remote Desktop?

Think about that for a minute. Instead of having a smaller, crappier version of your computer inside your mobile, your mobile is a portable terminal for your home computer.

You don't need a separate e-mail account/address for your phone, because you can access your main e-mail, and everything else on your computer via your mobile.

Just a thought ...

Cheers!

Jim

2ndPath
Jan 12, 2007, 07:08 AM
... But one potential killer feature I'm surprised no-one's speculated on yet (that I've seen) ...

What if the iPhone runs Apple Remote Desktop?

Think about that for a minute. Instead of having a smaller, crappier version of your computer inside your mobile, your mobile is a portable terminal for your home computer.

You don't need a separate e-mail account/address for your phone, because you can access your main e-mail, and everything else on your computer via your mobile.


But all applications on your desktop are set up to be controled with a keyboard and mouse. Thus they probably cannot be controled nicely with the touch screen. At least presently remote desktop does nothing else than displaying the normal user interface on a remote screen and transmitting the keyboard and mouse commands from that screen. Opposed to this, the applications running on the iPhone have a user interface optimezed for the touchscreen and small display size.

jettredmont
Jan 12, 2007, 02:36 PM
If my wife's Treo broke, it would be a catastrophic event. She keeps her whole life on that damn thing.


There's the problem.

Why are people happy with their "lives" ghettoized to a device? I absolutely, positively hate that. I'm a lot closer to having a working sync solution now with my Treo and Missing Sync, but things shouldn't be so hard. I shouldn't have to periodically do some voodoo over my Treo to get it to sync again (I am convinced that the problem is with Windows Mobile, not Missing Sync; they've done an admirable job reacting to a really flaky system). I shouldn't have to keep telling WM5 that the change Entourage made really was correct and I don't want it to undo it. I shouldn't have to re-enter things like speed dials and settings and call logs if I replace my Treo.

It should all just work. If my Treo gets run over by a train, I'll lose anything I put in it since the last sync, but otherwise I should just need to pick up a replacement Treo at the nearest kiosk, sync everything back over, and be on my way as though nothing happened.

That's how things should be. There's no reason why our cell phones should be so locked up, why people should feel like if that device fails on them they've lost all memory of events and contacts. Move out of the ghetto! Hopefully Apple's phone fixes this. From what I've seen, I have some very high hopes that it does!

jettredmont
Jan 12, 2007, 02:56 PM
Steve said that phone calls are the killer app for the iPhone, but I think he's being disingenuous. You can get any number of phones that make acceptable calls. The UI is the killer app on the iPhone. As mentioned everywhere, this phone has few truly "new" features, but what it has is implemented so seamlessly, so elegantly that they seem like a whole new experience.


"Killer App" has two manifestations.

1. It's the app that makes Platform X a viable platform, something which will drive people to adopt Platform X.
2. If you are introducing a new take on Platform X, you had better make damned sure you either flawlessly run its Killer Apps, or that you have a viable alternative.

Phone calls are the killer app of mobile phones. This sounds obvious, but IMHO that's been lost on many mobile phone makers.

mick4394
Jan 12, 2007, 04:21 PM
There's the problem.

Why are people happy with their "lives" ghettoized to a device? I absolutely, positively hate that. I'm a lot closer to having a working sync solution now with my Treo and Missing Sync, but things shouldn't be so hard. I shouldn't have to periodically do some voodoo over my Treo to get it to sync again (I am convinced that the problem is with Windows Mobile, not Missing Sync; they've done an admirable job reacting to a really flaky system). I shouldn't have to keep telling WM5 that the change Entourage made really was correct and I don't want it to undo it. I shouldn't have to re-enter things like speed dials and settings and call logs if I replace my Treo.

It should all just work. If my Treo gets run over by a train, I'll lose anything I put in it since the last sync, but otherwise I should just need to pick up a replacement Treo at the nearest kiosk, sync everything back over, and be on my way as though nothing happened.

That's how things should be. There's no reason why our cell phones should be so locked up, why people should feel like if that device fails on them they've lost all memory of events and contacts. Move out of the ghetto! Hopefully Apple's phone fixes this. From what I've seen, I have some very high hopes that it does!

I hope Apple gets it right, but I'm not that optimistic. The lack of Outlook support is a big deal, especially for those corporate types.