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MacRumors
Jan 12, 2007, 02:19 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

David Pogue has complied (http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/01/11/the-ultimate-iphone-frequently-asked-questions/) a list of frequently asked questions about the Apple iPhone. Pogue had some hands on time (http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/01/09/some-hands-on-time-with-the-iphone/) with the iPhone earlier this week.

A few of the more interesting/revealing answers are listed here:

- Does the Web browser support Flash or Java? –No.
- Can it open Word and Excel documents? –No. (Steve Jobs says it can open PDF files, though.)
- Will it sync with Outlook? –No.
- Does it connect to standard iPod accessories like car docks and speaker systems? –Yes!
- Won’t the screen get smudgy? –It does, but you don’t see it except when the screen is off. The one I played with was pretty streaky, but wiping it on my sleeve cleaned it completely.

The full FAQ list is available at his blog (http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/01/11/the-ultimate-iphone-frequently-asked-questions/).



Pistol Pete
Jan 12, 2007, 02:30 AM
too bad its still great though!

jhedges3
Jan 12, 2007, 02:30 AM
Does anyone know how much any of these things will change by June?

MacNut
Jan 12, 2007, 02:31 AM
Im curious as to when we get to demo these at the Apple Store.

emotion
Jan 12, 2007, 02:31 AM
I've seen reports that it can handle java and flash.

We need to wait a few months before taking any of this seriously.

Metatron
Jan 12, 2007, 02:33 AM
too bad its still great though!

That it doesn't do anything but have mobile itunes. I liked apple more as a computer company. They now seemed more concerned with thier DRM'd revenue stream.

dornoforpyros
Jan 12, 2007, 02:34 AM
I'm starting to think the iPhone is gonna kinda iStink.

Apple is on a roll right now, but let's not act like everything they do is success. Remember that whole "iPod by HP thing"? And the g4 cube?

In fact I'm calling it right now, the iPhone shall suffer the same faith as the g4 cube. Stunning design, but it just won't find success in the market place.

Although I am looking forward to the full screen iPods of the future, after apple learns from it's mistakes on this first touch screen endeavor.

/trolling :p

aiongiant
Jan 12, 2007, 02:37 AM
yea too bad
althought it's still awesome hehe
come on rev b! haha

kaada
Jan 12, 2007, 02:40 AM
I really, really hope that iPhone can open attached .doc and .xls files.... :(

zelet
Jan 12, 2007, 02:42 AM
Who pays $600 for a cell phone besides business users who are going to require Outlook integration? I was excited about this phone now I'm just disappointed. Its even worse that Apple is going to cripple the ability to add 3rd party applications. Now all the shortcomings of the phone can't be addressed by 3rd parties.

At the same time, this is Apple, and Apple makes sure they are as restrictive and proprietary as possible. You can't expect anything different from their cell phones. Plus, you are also dealing with cell phone companies - the biggest rip-off artists of all time.

CavemanUK
Jan 12, 2007, 02:48 AM
With steve pushing the itunes integration for mac or windows so hard, i find it difficult to believe that it doesnt support the most popular email package that would be synced with this kind of device.. plus no java/flash? what "complete" browser doesnt have these? i think this story is bs personally

Metatron
Jan 12, 2007, 03:05 AM
After reading Dave's full post, I am left thinking, what the hell does it actually do? :confused:

wilburdl
Jan 12, 2007, 03:21 AM
All I can say is wait till June to complain. Other than that, if you have a sugguestion, may I suggest emailing Apple. The crap this phone is getting pre-release is getting rediculous.

timmillwood
Jan 12, 2007, 03:33 AM
i think they iPhone will change loads between now and release, remember the first view of Leopard? Don't you think that would of changed loads next time we see it? I think the same will happen with the iPhone, All new software.

jpxdude
Jan 12, 2007, 03:33 AM
To be honest, since this device is essentially going to be a lifestyle PDA, and since devs are already on it, I'd imagine it wouldn't be long before something like an open office or Entourage in stripped form gets released on the device. I think the Flash/Java support is false, especially since the safari on the iPhone is said to be a 'full HTML desktop class application' I refuse to believe that these won't be supported on official release.

livingfortoday
Jan 12, 2007, 03:38 AM
It feels like Apple is taking the Zune approach to the iPhone - it's a device with huge potential, crippled by the producer. If it could function as a PDA as well, and had even just basic file reading capabilities, it would be such a more powerful tool. As is, what is it other than a more expensive iPod + phone?

toughboy
Jan 12, 2007, 03:48 AM
I'm starting to think the iPhone is gonna kinda iStink.

Apple is on a roll right now, but let's not act like everything they do is success. Remember that whole "iPod by HP thing"? And the g4 cube?

In fact I'm calling it right now, the iPhone shall suffer the same faith as the g4 cube. Stunning design, but it just won't find success in the market place.


G4 Cube may not had sold much, but this doesnt show that Cube was a failure.. It was just a bit overpriced and only the people who could afford bought it.. Other than that, Cube was a fantastic machine, powerful yet elegant, fast yet virtually silent!.. It was a Ferrari-like machine and even today I would love to have a Cube in my living room.

iPhone will surely sell more than Cube, but even it doesnt, I dont really care because the more something sells, the less "special" it becomes. I already accepted to give a fortune to it whenever it becomes available in Turkey and I dont give a thing if its successfully selling or not..

Machead III
Jan 12, 2007, 04:35 AM
Um... er.... why has Apple crippled their phone?

No 3rd party apps = smartphone buyers won't buy it. At $599 + 24*contract fee, if smartphone buyers won't buy it, no one will.

matticus008
Jan 12, 2007, 04:35 AM
That it doesn't do anything but have mobile itunes. I liked apple more as a computer company. They now seemed more concerned with thier DRM'd revenue stream.
What DRM revenue stream? iTunes isn't particularly profitable.

SPUY767
Jan 12, 2007, 04:36 AM
Apple has the brand clout to have released this phone on their own and had no problems with distribution. The reason that they had to partner with Cingular is because they needed a carrier to subsidize the price of this thing. There is a LOT of expensive technology in this phone whether you are willing to see it or not. I'd say that with no cotract you were looking at an $800.00 phone.

weg
Jan 12, 2007, 04:39 AM
Who pays $600 for a cell phone besides business users who are going to require Outlook integration?

Phones which sync with iSync can also sync with Entourage, but the lack of Outlook synchronization is definitely a show-stopper.

britishempire
Jan 12, 2007, 04:41 AM
lack of freedom is the main show stopper here.

no 3rd party apps, no freedom with regard to carrier... it's a shame, the actual DEVICE looks awesome, but the BS surrounding it might kill it off before it gets a chance to become established in the marketplace

macFanDave
Jan 12, 2007, 04:50 AM
Was I excited by the iPhone when Steve showed it off? Yes.

Was I prepared to buy one or two (one for the wife) and pay Cingular whatever exorbitant costs it demands to buy and use them? Yes.

If the answers to Pogue's questions are still the same in June, will I still be making this move? No . . . make that a "Hell, no!"

MagicWok
Jan 12, 2007, 05:00 AM
Was I excited by the iPhone when Steve showed it off? Yes.

Was I prepared to buy one or two (one for the wife) and pay Cingular whatever exorbitant costs it demands to buy and use them? Yes.

If the answers to Pogue's questions are still the same in June, will I still be making this move? No . . . make that a "Hell, no!"

Do you remind me of the surgeon from scrubs that Turk labels a 'question talker'? Yes you do... :p lol

Marx55
Jan 12, 2007, 05:03 AM
It should be posible to move files between the Mac or PC-Windows and the iPhone. At least from the computer to the iPhone, like Keynote and PowerPoint files for wireless computerless presentations from the iPhone.

FleurDuMal
Jan 12, 2007, 05:04 AM
No flash support? Does that mean no YouTube? That's gonna be a bit painful for Apple in the age of Web 2.0

Warbrain
Jan 12, 2007, 05:17 AM
No flash support? Does that mean no YouTube? That's gonna be a bit painful for Apple in the age of Web 2.0

I suspect that that will change no matter what. Remember, the iPhone isn't fully developed yet. Apple may be talking to Adobe about Flash support for the iPhone...

Tymmz
Jan 12, 2007, 05:17 AM
I'm impressed by the phone's UI, but the functionality is half-baked so far.

EDIT:

I'm very confident that Apple will bring more apps and greater functionality to the iPhone. They got themselves a great basis for future applications.

I'm really excited to see how the iPhone will develop.

emotion
Jan 12, 2007, 05:21 AM
Yawn....save the bleating for when this thing is finalised. It might be crippled junk and not worth picking up but we won't know until it's released.

iflipper
Jan 12, 2007, 05:22 AM
It does sync with ical though, right?

emotion
Jan 12, 2007, 05:24 AM
It does sync with ical though, right?

:D :D

Padraig
Jan 12, 2007, 05:35 AM
So it's a $500 dumb-phone. Quite a premium for the touchscreen.

Warbrain
Jan 12, 2007, 05:53 AM
So it's a $500 dumb-phone. Quite a premium for the touchscreen.

Such wonderful insight. Thanks.

For those that actually contribute to the conversation, the price is justified. You need to take out the price of the iPod that you're buying with the iPhone to understand it. 499-199=300. That's about right for a brand new, top of the line smartphone.

thejadedmonkey
Jan 12, 2007, 05:53 AM
Hardware wise, it's all there. It's just getting the software up to snuff, so to speak, in the next 6 months.

Personally, I think it's time Apple ditched iTunes as the sync engine and went back to using iSync, even for iPods. Just bundle iSync for Windows with the iTunes 7.1 download... it makes more sense for me that way.

iSaint
Jan 12, 2007, 05:56 AM
I, too, read in this forum that it does support flash and java, but no more plug ins than that.

Since it doesn't support Outlook, I guess it doesn't sync with Entourage? :confused:

Arcus
Jan 12, 2007, 05:58 AM
"Does the Web browser support Flash or Java? –No."

Umm....then how does it work with Yahoo or Google maps? No Java?? Maybe Im missing something.

lorien
Jan 12, 2007, 06:05 AM
After reading Dave's full post, I am left thinking, what the hell does it actually do? :confused:

Did you miss the 1 1/2 hour long explanation of what it DOES, that Steve gave a few days ago???

emotion
Jan 12, 2007, 06:05 AM
Hardware wise, it's all there. It's just getting the software up to snuff, so to speak, in the next 6 months.

Personally, I think it's time Apple ditched iTunes as the sync engine and went back to using iSync, even for iPods. Just bundle iSync for Windows with the iTunes 7.1 download... it makes more sense for me that way.

Yeah I noticed the overloading of the iTunes app too. They need a rethink really to make the app appear consistent. At least the name should be changed. Maybe it will be in Leopard (again waay to early to tell).

julzmon
Jan 12, 2007, 06:19 AM
Seems like day by day this phone is less and less kewl. I can't see buying one until I get.
Wifi-Bluetooth Sync... seems like a no brainer?
No Flash? I thought it was a full browser?.... I'm a Flash designer so this is a huge deal to me.
And no 3rd party apps?.... Seems a little insane to me.

julzmon
Jan 12, 2007, 06:20 AM
"Does the Web browser support Flash or Java? –No."

Umm....then how does it work with Yahoo or Google maps? No Java?? Maybe Im missing something.

Yeah! Cause Gmaps "IS" java.

rish
Jan 12, 2007, 06:31 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

David Pogue has complied (http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/01/11/the-ultimate-iphone-frequently-asked-questions/) a list of frequently asked questions about the Apple iPhone. Pogue had some hands on time (http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/01/09/some-hands-on-time-with-the-iphone/) with the iPhone earlier this week.

A few of the more interesting/revealing answers are listed here:



The full FAQ list is available at his blog (http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/01/11/the-ultimate-iphone-frequently-asked-questions/).

Everyone needs to ease up a little here. The Apple Phone has not even been approved yet and by the time it has there will be a marked difference between what comes to market and the intro device in terms of advancement.

I will say this, at this stage this device is clearly better than anything out there in terms of design, UI, ease of use and the apps available albeit in some peoples eyes limited.

The most interesting thing will be how will the current market leaders respond given that the Apple Phone tech is patented to the hilt.

I think Apple will make a considerable amount of money not only from the product but also patent disputes.

blurtigo
Jan 12, 2007, 06:38 AM
Everyone needs to ease up a little here. The Apple Phone has not even been approved yet and by the time it has there will be a marked difference between what comes to market and the intro device in terms of advancement.

I will say this, at this stage this device is clearly better than anything out there in terms of design, UI, ease of use and the apps available albeit in some peoples eyes limited.

The most interesting thing will be how will the current market leaders respond given that the Apple Phone tech is patented to the hilt.

I think Apple will make a considerable amount of money not only from the product but also patent disputes.

I don't think anyone is knocking the hardware and UI.

I do think it's becoming clear though that the direction they intend to take the iPhone in is very much crippled by the phone operator and modelled the way the iPod market works.

I think locking out 3rd party developers is a big mistake, and I can see 'updates' to the phone being done in iPod style yearly updates where new features are added to the latest version of the phone as selling points. Rather than it being an ongoing evolving platform which it should be.

Especially considering one of their killer-app demo features - Cover Flow - wouldn't even be in there if it wasn't for a 3rd party developer. It's such an exciting platform, with so much potential for innovation because of the interface, that it is gutting to see it crippled in this way.

bigmc6000
Jan 12, 2007, 06:45 AM
I swear if I didn't know any better I'd think this was a windoze fan-boy site. You guys are freakin harder on Apple than the M$ boys are! Simmer down - as steve said in the keynote it grabs everything from PCs as well as Macs so I'm thinking no outlook support claimed is likely bogus or hasn't been implemented yet. Flash/Java - that's just crap - no worry, it'll be there. No 3rd party software - that's also crap - as one poster pointed out in another thread Steve actually mentioned the 3rd party people VERBATIM when talking about the reasons for putting OS X on this thing.

I think it has to sync up through iTunes so iTunes can know where all your music is and keep the DRM in check. It's hilarious that you guys are all blaming Apple for this. Lest we not forget the RIAA said we aren't even allowed to have mp3 copies of our own CD's! We wouldn't even have the ability to put it on more than 1 device had Apple not pushed the music industry so hard. That and I have yet to run into any DRM problem - granted I don't own 6 iPods and 6 computers but the way some of you guys talk you MUST have at least this many right????

blurtigo
Jan 12, 2007, 06:48 AM
Do you honestly think Cingular will let a 3rd party Skype app appear?

I really don't think this will be an open-platform. We'll see at WWDC. If they don't roll out a OS X Mobile development platform there, then I think you can kiss the chances of that goodbye.

rish
Jan 12, 2007, 06:50 AM
I don't think anyone is knocking the hardware and UI.

I do think it's becoming clear though that the direction they intend to take the iPhone in is very much crippled by the phone operator and modelled the way the iPod market works.

I think locking out 3rd party developers is a big mistake, and I can see 'updates' to the phone being done in iPod style yearly updates where new features are added to the latest version of the phone as selling points. Rather than it being an ongoing evolving platform which it should be.

Especially considering one of their killer-app demo features - Cover Flow - wouldn't even be in there if it wasn't for a 3rd party developer. It's such an exciting platform, with so much potential for innovation because of the interface, that it is gutting to see it crippled in this way.

Remember this though, if Apple let every Tom Dick and Harry develop for the Mac platform the chances are pretty high that you'd get the same old crap thats on the current PDA's let alone PC's.

Seriously have you seen the apps available for some of Palms models. They are awful.

Being discerning in who develops for you also determines whether your product remains to be successful. Apple controlling who develops for their platform will ensure continuity and quality. Thats why cover flow made it and thats why Apple products look and work great.

blurtigo
Jan 12, 2007, 06:56 AM
Remember this though, if Apple let every Tom Dick and Harry develop for the Mac platform the chances are pretty high that you'd get the same old crap thats on the current PDA's let alone PC's.

Seriously have you seen the apps available for some of Palms models. They are awful.

Being discerning in who develops for you also determines whether your product remains to be successful. Apple controlling who develops for their platform will ensure continuity and quality. Thats why cover flow made it and thats why Apple products look and work great.

There's rubbish 3rd party Mac apps as well as good ones. But its a breeding ground for innovative products. The Mac development community just seems to be more creative, more concerned with ease-of-use, and have a more versatile OS at their disposal to make that happen.

Cover Flow, and iTunes/SoundJam for that matter, wouldn't have been able to be taken inhouse and adopted by Apple if someone hadn't been able to create them in the first place.

iPhone sounds like it's going to be incredibly restrictive, similar to games on the iPod, which doesn't suit the potential of the platform in my opinion.

rish
Jan 12, 2007, 06:59 AM
There's rubbish 3rd party Mac apps as well as good ones. But its a breeding ground for innovative products.

Cover Flow, and iTunes/SoundJam for that matter, wouldn't have been able to be taken inhouse and adopted by Apple if someone hadn't been able to create them in the first place.

iPhone sounds like it's going to be incredibly restrictive, similar to games on the iPod, which doesn't suit the potential of the platform in my opinion.

I could not agree more with you regarding Coverflow and Sound Jam, but I stick to what I said.

Control on what gets on your device is important hence the success of the iPod, it kept what was important without over complicating the platform.

blurtigo
Jan 12, 2007, 07:04 AM
I could not agree more with you regarding Coverflow and Sound Jam, but I stick to what I said.

Control on what gets on your device is important hence the success of the iPod, it kept what was important without over complicating the platform.

I think there's a 3rd way though. You could still let developers have the freedom to develop on it, while offering a selection of all that to the general public. Similar to how the Apple site tends to highlight the better shareware and 3rd party apps.

A lot of the general public aren't going to go to the trouble of going on versiontracker and downloading/installing something manually. Apple could just offer what they consider the best direct to the iPhone via the browser, while still letting other people play with whatever they want.

I think the restrictions are driven by Cingular and a desire to have yearly model/feature updates rather than a desire to protect the consumer personally.

Cepe Indicum
Jan 12, 2007, 07:07 AM
"Does the Web browser support Flash or Java? –No."

Umm....then how does it work with Yahoo or Google maps? No Java?? Maybe Im missing something.

I had the same thought... although, I don't claim to know anything about this kind of thing, so I did a quick search and it looks like Google Maps for existing cell phones use Java.

Can anyone actually shed any light. :confused:

Yeah! Cause Gmaps "IS" java.

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, sorry.

MacDonaldsd
Jan 12, 2007, 07:15 AM
I still like the iPhone. I think people have to remember its aimed at consumers (that have the money) rather than business customers.

I wouldn't mind WiFi syncing though

Stella
Jan 12, 2007, 07:25 AM
Other smartphones aren't locked down to the hilt by the manufacturer @ $600.

Other smartphones can play ( unprotected ) AAC, MP3, WMA et al so the lack of iTunes isn't a big deal.



Such wonderful insight. Thanks.

For those that actually contribute to the conversation, the price is justified. You need to take out the price of the iPod that you're buying with the iPhone to understand it. 499-199=300. That's about right for a brand new, top of the line smartphone.

sokrates
Jan 12, 2007, 07:33 AM
who says's it can't play unprotected mp3s? iTunes can, so why shouldn't the phone?

Stella
Jan 12, 2007, 07:39 AM
who says's it can't play unprotected mp3s? iTunes can, so why shouldn't the phone?
Since your post is undermine and seems related, I'm assuming its a response to mine:
Read my post again, I never said iPhone cannot play unprotected MP3 ( are any MP3s DRM protected?!) ( hint: other smartphones, unprotected AAC ).

Yes it may be early in the morning for you too :-)

peharri
Jan 12, 2007, 07:47 AM
"Does the Web browser support Flash or Java? –No."

Umm....then how does it work with Yahoo or Google maps? No Java?? Maybe Im missing something.

Google Maps is 100% Javascript and HTML. No Java at all.

I don't think anyone claimed it does Yahoo maps, but I may be wrong. Even if it does, there's some lattitude to the claim, as Yahoo's maps are available in both flash and non-flash forms.

Warbrain
Jan 12, 2007, 07:57 AM
Other smartphones aren't locked down to the hilt by the manufacturer @ $600.

Other smartphones can play ( unprotected ) AAC, MP3, WMA et al so the lack of iTunes isn't a big deal.

Have you tried to purchase a smart phone that was unlocked of late? 600 dollars. I've been looking into smartphones for a while and it's impossible to find an unlocked one for less. And plus, you pay as much for an Apple product which you know will work much better than those other devices.

dual64bit
Jan 12, 2007, 08:02 AM
I'm starting to think the iPhone is gonna kinda iStink.

Apple is on a roll right now, but let's not act like everything they do is success. Remember that whole "iPod by HP thing"? And the g4 cube?

In fact I'm calling it right now, the iPhone shall suffer the same faith as the g4 cube. Stunning design, but it just won't find success in the market place.

Although I am looking forward to the full screen iPods of the future, after apple learns from it's mistakes on this first touch screen endeavor.

/trolling


I agree, Apple has had it's share of disasters. You can even go back and look at older machines, the G4 cube wasn't the only over-priced computer, look at the TAM (20th Anniv. Mac (http://www.apple-history.com/body.php?page=gallery&model=anniversary&performa=off&sort=date&order=ASC)). This could be another product being offered that's going to overshoot the market, perhaps ahead of it's time? They don't even do marketing research! They have a few people who sit around and decide how much it should sell for. It's a great device, with little flaws. It'll be interesting to see exactly how well it does do.

mtrctyjoe
Jan 12, 2007, 08:05 AM
Wow... I hate to say this, but if even half of this is true - then I sure am not interested in the 1st version. This thing lacks memory, is expensive, Cingular sucks where I live, can't sync with Outlook, no third party support... on and on and on.....

I hope for Apple's sake this is not true, they will no doubt release some surprises between now and June. The touch screen is great - If they incorporate this into a fully functional tablet (like that cool OWC thingy!) I might give them my coin.

The iPone is "cool" but at those prices and limited functionality - no one is getting off of their crackberries and plams. I could see this as useful for a .mac member - but this is about it.

Stella
Jan 12, 2007, 08:13 AM
Have you tried to purchase a smart phone that was unlocked of late? 600 dollars. I've been looking into smartphones for a while and it's impossible to find an unlocked one for less. And plus, you pay as much for an Apple product which you know will work much better than those other devices.

Yes. In Canada the Nokia E-Series start from around $450 unlocked ( Symbian ) and I'm sure there are palms, Blackberrys around the same price range.

I have to disagree that the iPHone works better than <unspecified smartphones> ( that is a very far reaching statement by the way ). For one , once again, there are a large library of applications that you can install for all smartphones. All platforms encourage 3rd party developers, freely. Any one who has used a smartphone can appreciate the need for 3rd party applications - unrestricted.

Speedracer04
Jan 12, 2007, 08:15 AM
booooo I know for a fact that the iPhone will not be able to take over the corporate world if it cant open Excel or Word documents with editing capabilities. Until then there will always be a place for Blackberries and Treo's.

peharri
Jan 12, 2007, 08:16 AM
Have you tried to purchase a smart phone that was unlocked of late? 600 dollars. I've been looking into smartphones for a while and it's impossible to find an unlocked one for less. And plus, you pay as much for an Apple product which you know will work much better than those other devices.

Nokia 9300, unlocked: $249 (http://www.amazon.com/Nokia-9300-Smartphone-Unlocked/dp/B000BYGNVA/sr=8-3/qid=1168610828/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3/102-8708674-8244159?ie=UTF8&s=wireless)
Blackbery Pearl 8100 Unlocked - $449 (http://www.itechnyc.com/gsm_rim_pearl.htm)

Those are just the first two phones I searched for. Literally just the first two. Couldn't find the unlocked Pearl on Amazon but a quick Google found a whole bunch. For sheets and giggles I did a search for Unlocked Sidekick III, and while there doesn't seem to be an official channel for them, used sales are under $200.

I'm not saying either are as good as the iPhone of course, but then none of them approach $500+Absurd Contract in price.

BTW, I think people shouldn't ignore the Sidekick. It's an extremely populist platform, overlaps with the iPhone in functionality to a high degree, and has done T-Mobile a world of good in the US, but would it have sold at twice to three times the price? I doubt it.

If I were T-Mobile and Hiptop, I'd be looking right now at rolling out something that could be the Nintendo DS to the iPhone's Sony PSP. Ironically, that would probably push up sales of the iPhone too.

Warbrain
Jan 12, 2007, 08:17 AM
Yes. In Canada the Nokia E-Series start from around $450 unlocked ( Symbian ) and I'm sure there are palms, Blackberrys around the same price range.

I have to disagree that the iPHone works better than <unspecified smartphones> ( that is a very far reaching statement by the way ). For one , once again, there are a large library of applications that you can install for all smartphones. All platforms encourage 3rd party applications. Any one who has used a smartphone can appreciate the need for 3rd party applications - unrestrictive.

Yea, 450. So 500 dollars isn't much higher. And I'm sure that you'll be able to expand the iPhone software-wise. You need to remember that it's not fully developed and completed yet.

Stella
Jan 12, 2007, 08:20 AM
Yea, 450. So 500 dollars isn't much higher. And I'm sure that you'll be able to expand the iPhone software-wise. You need to remember that it's not fully developed and completed yet.

Erm, thats $450 unlocked, no contract. A better deal than iPhone. As previous poster said, they found cheaper smart phones.

Apple want to *control* the 3rd party software. No other smartphone platform does that. Like I just said, others encourage and want 3rd party software - uncontrolled, unrestrictived.

peharri
Jan 12, 2007, 08:20 AM
Yea, 450. So 500 dollars isn't much higher. And I'm sure that you'll be able to expand the iPhone software-wise. You need to remember that it's not fully developed and completed yet.

$450 is certainly lower than $500.
$500 + contract is considerably higher than $450 without one.

Or to put it another way, $250 with contract is considerably lower than $500 with contract.

You can't really suggest the iPhone's price is low or reasonable by comparing the prices of unsubsidized phones with the iPhone's subsidized price. And someone can, unquestionably, get a much cheaper good, carrier-neutral, smartphone for less than the price of an iPhone.

Warbrain
Jan 12, 2007, 08:22 AM
$450 is certainly lower than $500.
$500 + contract is considerably higher than $450 without one.

Or to put it another way, $250 with contract is considerably lower than $500 with contract.

You can't really suggest the iPhone's price is low or reasonable by comparing the prices of unsubsidized phones with the iPhone's subsidized price. And someone can, unquestionably, get a much cheaper good, carrier-neutral, smartphone for less than the price of an iPhone.

But one that you'll need to purchase additional software and cables for because it's not supported on a Mac? The iPhone is great because you don't need to do that. It'll work through iTunes just fine. If I wanted to connect a Treo, I'd have to buy Missing Sync...

Stella
Jan 12, 2007, 08:28 AM
But one that you'll need to purchase additional software and cables for because it's not supported on a Mac? The iPhone is great because you don't need to do that. It'll work through iTunes just fine. If I wanted to connect a Treo, I'd have to buy Missing Sync...

I don't need to purchase additional software for my phone. iSync does a great job - I'm quite impressed by it.

Give your example, however. Say I buy an unlocked , out of contract phone for $450 and then have to spend $50 on Missing Sync. Its still cheaper than $500 + 2 year contract.

Edit: a given, Missing Sync does a bit more than iSync. But my example still stands.

furrylogic
Jan 12, 2007, 08:31 AM
I read on a German website that Apple will definitely get Flash and Java working no the iPhone. They would like to have as many plug-ins for Safari as possible. I would assume that QuickTime would also work. No? The problem will come with other streaming media in Real or WMV formats. Apple would not be likely to want to support those technologies.

Another interesting point made in the German article is that the OS and applications will be contained within the 4MB and 8MB storage. They should take up "well under" 1/2 GB, according to Apple.

For those who can read German, check out the article at http://www.macwelt.de/news/messen/342764/index.html

MarcelV
Jan 12, 2007, 08:35 AM
No 3rd party apps = smartphone buyers won't buy it.
I am using a Blackberry for work for approx. 2 years, and so does 150 others with me in the company. I can tell you, almost not a single person has a 3rd party app loaded! And I have met quite a few people at our vendors that have Blackberries and Treo's. guess what, not a lot of people from them either that install 3rd party software.

Do I think it is missing some things? Yes, it does. Yahoo mail does push to the iPhone, but no push announced for .Mac mail. No outlook integration either. But just like the Treo, it is just a matter of time that someone will build a gateway for that on the desktop, IMHO.

I am very surprised that some people state they were very excited initial, but based on the answers of David Pogue, became less excited. Strange, because non of those things Steve showed at the Keynote. it's not that he showed something, and took it away later! It's still the same device.

I am not sure I will buy one, and the major reason is the 2 year commitment. I want an iPod widescreen video, I like the Wifi sync for applications, but I have a phone from work. And they are using a contract with Verizon. And I don't have a need for a second phone. So, please Steve, give me all of the iPhone, without phone, just the i part of it... :)

age234
Jan 12, 2007, 08:41 AM
Remember how upset people were over the "crippled" 1G iPod? Couldn't sync with Windows, not enough space, yadda yadda. Well, guess what?

#1, give it a chance to be finalized. There are 5+ months to go yet.

#2, this is just the first generation. At least give it a chance in the marketplace before making wild predictions of doom.

#3, Apple's stock has not faltered with all this negativity, so obviously all these assumptions aren't a problem for the people whose opinions matter most.

jellomizer
Jan 12, 2007, 08:42 AM
The thing that is really hindering Cell Phones is not the keys or the interface. It is just the lack of good features. It seems the iPhone has a lot of potential but... other then the first gee wiz factor real life use will be quite limited. A lot of these Questions from the FAQ are very good questions. While some of them are just asking about switching services (not Cingular). The other things are probably just as important if not more. 3rd party software is vital for the iPhone main success. Syncing with iTunes and iSync may not be good for people in business environments which are PC based and they don't want iTunes installed on the work PC for obvious reasons. While PDF are fine, right or wrong the rest of the world attached Word Docs and excel files. As well I could understand putting limits on what they features they can do off the Cingular network. But accessing normal internet data should be reasonably open.
I think when we wanted Apple to make an iPhone we wanted something close to a G3 iMac in performance and functionality. I dont think apple needs to make it super easy to install new apps but it would be nice if they could provide the functionality for those who need it.
I hear arguments that these cell phones are targeted for rich people for non-business use. But the reason these people have the extra cash to buy a $600 cell phone is because of business. If Palms offering although a technically inferior phone, offers more functionality. They will go with that other then the iPhone. It is like the old IBM vs. Mac debate in the 80's IBM won (then) because they had more software available and thus more functionionality even though the macs were technically superior.

macintel4me
Jan 12, 2007, 08:46 AM
To provide some perspective here. Steve Jobs has been involved in 5 major technology revolutions.
1) Apple Personal Computer. Didn't sell well until the Apple II two years later.
2) Mac. Didn't sell well at first. Steve was even found crying in his office for its perceived lack of success.
3) NeXT. Didn't sell well. Sales were simply awful in the beginning.
4) iPod. Did sell well which was a total surprise to everyone including Steve. Wasn't until the iTunes Store did it really take off....oh yeah and that Windows port of iTunes helped too.
5) iPhone. ??? I expect it won't do well in the beginning simply because that's the way it goes for Steve.

It's a real honor and great fun to be following such great technology revolutions. The iPhone in 5 years will probably do VoIP over WiFi/WiMAX, have no ties to a single provider, GPS device, perfect iTunes integration, HD camcorder/camera, incredible car, Apple TV integration, among so much more I can't think of. I can't wait!

acrafton
Jan 12, 2007, 08:51 AM
I am using a Blackberry for work for approx. 2 years, and so does 150 others with me in the company. I can tell you, almost not a single person has a 3rd party app loaded! And I have met quite a few people at our vendors that have Blackberries and Treo's. guess what, not a lot of people from them either that install 3rd party software.

My company (200K+ employees) locks blackberries so you can not install any 3rd party apps even if you want to. . . Also, most/all companies involved in stocks/bonds/banking/etc also lock them.

serious damage
Jan 12, 2007, 08:52 AM
... would be VoIP but what do you think, is this the reason 3rd party software is banned? Because someone would develope that application for iPhone and eat the network's dinner...?

BillHarrison
Jan 12, 2007, 08:54 AM
To provide some perspective here. Steve Jobs has been involved in 5 major technology revolutions.
1) Apple Personal Computer. Didn't sell well until the Apple II two years later.
2) Mac. Didn't sell well at first. Steve was even found crying in his office for its perceived lack of success.
3) NeXT. Didn't sell well. Sales were simply awful in the beginning.
4) iPod. Did sell well which was a total surprise to everyone including Steve. Wasn't until the iTunes Store did it really take off....oh yeah and that Windows port of iTunes helped too.
5) iPhone. ??? I expect it won't do well in the beginning simply because that's the way it goes for Steve.

It's a real honor and great fun to be following such great technology revolutions. The iPhone in 5 years will probably do VoIP over WiFi/WiMAX, have no ties to a single provider, GPS device, perfect iTunes integration, HD camcorder/camera, incredible car, Apple TV integration, among so much more I can't think of. I can't wait!

Well, All I see here is that we cannot really judge the success / failure of a product based on previous failures / success's of the company. The iPod did great, but it was a breakthrough, a large storage based mp3 player, when all the others were nary more than toys with 32 or 64mb of memory. It was a revolution.


THIS, however, is NOT. Take away fancy interface, and your left with a very poor smartphone judging by what has been found out so far. Yes, the interface is intuitive, and "Snazzy". Intuitive and snazzy however fail when you want to install a new program. When I want to watch divx on my iPhone, will "Apple/Cingular" let me? My smartphone does it just fine, with a 3rd party application.

These are the things that make a smartphone smart. Note, steve avoided calling it a smartphone, but labeled it an "Internet communicator".

I see this being locked down tightly like an iPod, and while that works great for an ipod, I definitely would not want that for a smartphone.

At this point, it offers nothing my smartphone in my pocket has, other than a snazzier interface. And to me, I cant justify paying another 300 dollars for (My 200mhz smartphone was 199).

harmless
Jan 12, 2007, 08:58 AM
I am very surprised that some people state they were very excited initial, but based on the answers of David Pogue, became less excited. Strange, because non of those things Steve showed at the Keynote. it's not that he showed something, and took it away later! It's still the same device.
OK, I'll explain it to you.

This thing was introduced as a smartphone. Actually, Steve made it sound like it was way better than any smartphone on the market.

Additionally he made a big point of it coming with (a version of) OS X.

Those two points made the audience (or at least a great portion of it) think, that this is in effect a very small Mac. And that the applications shown were only a glimpse of what that system is capable of. Similar to an iLife demo on a new Mac.

Now that Steve announced that there will be no 3rd party applications (only Apple-approved is just as bad as none at all) on this thing, it's practically dead in the water. A great machine with no way to reach it's potential.

It's really just like an expensive litte Mac with only iLife on it. Sure, there will still be people who'll buy it. But I, and may others who were thinking about the possibilities with diverse software on it, will not.

asphalt-proof
Jan 12, 2007, 09:02 AM
I can't believe that I am writing this, but the more I hear about this iPhone, the more I am disinclined to purchase it when it comes out. No Outlook!? That is a huge deal breaker for me. Not open to other developers?! There are several Palm programs I use FREQUENTLY that are 3rd party only. Most people that own smartphones are the same.
The more I hear about this phone the more I realize that this is NOT a smartphone and I don't think Apple has tried to hide it. Its a media phone ala LG Chocolate or SE W810i.
I assume Apple knows what they are doing and I have no doubt that it will be a huge hit. It will do what it does very well and look dead sexy while doing it. Its just not going to be in my pocket.:(

Stella
Jan 12, 2007, 09:09 AM
As Apple have found out in the past, Eye Candy isn't everything, you need substance, i.e., flexible functionality.
I can't believe that I am writing this, but the more I hear about this iPhone, the more I am disinclined to purchase it when it comes out. No Outlook!? That is a huge deal breaker for me. Not open to other developers?! There are several Palm programs I use FREQUENTLY that are 3rd party only. Most people that own smartphones are the same.
The more I hear about this phone the more I realize that this is NOT a smartphone and I don't think Apple has tried to hide it. Its a media phone ala LG Chocolate or SE W810i.
I assume Apple knows what they are doing and I have no doubt that it will be a huge hit. It will do what it does very well and look dead sexy while doing it. Its just not going to be in my pocket.:(

Surreal
Jan 12, 2007, 09:16 AM
i have been on a flash game kick and i have noticed that MANY games crash on a mac that do not crash on a PC. Flash for the mac is terribly written. bad code is to blame, but so is flash itself.

that said, i think "no flash" falls under the desire to ensure a pleasant user experience. no flash will frustrate some people...but not NEARLY as much as the PHONE crashing.

macFanDave
Jan 12, 2007, 09:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by macFanDave
Was I excited by the iPhone when Steve showed it off? Yes.

Was I prepared to buy one or two (one for the wife) and pay Cingular whatever exorbitant costs it demands to buy and use them? Yes.

If the answers to Pogue's questions are still the same in June, will I still be making this move? No . . . make that a "Hell, no!"

Do you remind me of the surgeon from scrubs that Turk labels a 'question talker'? Yes you do... lol

Did I see that episode of Scrubs? No.

Did I think that someone might pick up on a Donald Rumsfeld thing? Yes.

Why can't I stop talking like this? Because it is gratifying to carry on your own dialogue.

Will I ever end this post? Ye

foniks2020
Jan 12, 2007, 09:24 AM
i have been on a flash game kick and i have noticed that MANY games crash on a mac that do not crash on a PC. Flash for the mac is terribly written. bad code is to blame, but so is flash itself.

that said, i think "no flash" falls under the desire to ensure a pleasant user experience. no flash will frustrate some people...but not NEARLY as much as the PHONE crashing.

Hmmm it wouldn't be bothersome unless there was no plan to account for it happening. Say it uses a journaled filesystem to keep track of everything so you don't lose any data... and it automatically restarts (can't take long a few seconds at most).... worst thing that could happen is you drop a call cause you were playing a flash game while on hold or something ;-p

Now full fledged apps... they could be trouble if there's no Desktop application manager for the iPhone... how else would you get a buggy app off the device?

So until Apple announces some sort of application syncing through iTunes or whatever (not out of the question, especially for widgets at first) there won't be ANY additional apps.

Plus side, I can see a big market FOR widgets rather than full fledged apps.. you can do a lot with widgets (calculators, text editors, etc).

slughead
Jan 12, 2007, 09:26 AM
i have been on a flash game kick and i have noticed that MANY games crash on a mac that do not crash on a PC. Flash for the mac is terribly written. bad code is to blame, but so is flash itself.

that said, i think "no flash" falls under the desire to ensure a pleasant user experience. no flash will frustrate some people...but not NEARLY as much as the PHONE crashing.


Safari is more crash-prone than firefox. Firefox also has session restore which brings you back to where you were right before it crashed.

FF is also faster and my websites are optimized for it. I'm waiting for a real javascript debugger for Safari before I start really paying attention to it.

TheBobcat
Jan 12, 2007, 09:33 AM
I think that most of the stuff that this guy brought up can, and will probably happen by the time that June rolls around. I just can't believe Apple being so stupid as to not have Outlook integration (which they never really said it did or didn't so I don't know how anyone can really know), not open office documents, and not have at least Java in the browser. Don't forget, SJ (supposedly) didn't say there would be no third party support, he just said that it would be regulated heavily by Apple, and even that could change as well by June.

I think the lack of voice dial proves that while the iPhone was ready to demo, it was not ready to sell. The hardware may be pretty much finalized, but the software definitely isn't. If it was, we'd have it now, wouldn't we?

Relax, you'll loose weight.

Sandfleaz
Jan 12, 2007, 09:34 AM
Outlook synchronization is vital for corporate use.

However, you have to believe this product that has not even been released wil evole and mature. Sit back and enjoy the ride...at the very least it will shake up every other phone manufacturer.

acrafton
Jan 12, 2007, 09:37 AM
I don't think Apple will be releasing a wide screen Ipod with touch screen anytime soon - like not this year. . .There is little upside for them to do this as it would canabalize sales of the IPhone and all metrics for success will be on sales of the IPhone, not on IPods.

Existing IPods will continue to sell once they announce that no new ones will be avail until 08 - to "meet the demand for the IPhone" and when they do release them the price will be close to the Iphone, again, to reduce the impact on the IPhone.

Apple will force users to choose - "old" IPods or new IPhone if you want widescreen functionality. . .this is typical Apple and it will probably work as many/most on this board would, given the choice, opt for a widescreen IPod.

sishaw
Jan 12, 2007, 09:38 AM
There are differences between the iPod market and the cell phone market that Apple is entering. Clearly, one nice thing about the Treo is the huge selection of third-party apps. I would say the software lockdown and the lack of easily removable battery may be two areas where Apple will perhaps need to make some adjustments. Although, I could see other, Apple-like solutions as well.

To wit: Apple is no slouch at software development. They could (and maybe indeed plan to) create some must-have applications for the iPhone that will be so desirable that the failure to leverage third-party mindshare will seem less of a problem. Or, they could solve the potential problems with strict quality control. As for the end of life of the battery, maybe a part of the battery exchange program could include a temporary phone to tide one over until the new battery is installed one's iPhone.

In any event, let's all keep in mind that this is an initial entry of a more advanced technology.

I'm still hoping for a non-phone version with a nice, big hard drive, wide screen, and wi-fi (there's plenty of free wi-fi in my area). Now THAT would be a must-have iPod. PDA functions and games could be included as well.

McJofus
Jan 12, 2007, 09:38 AM
What's far more important than supporting Java in this day and age of rich browser-based apps is to support *JavaScript*. Two different animals.

Take a look at Gmail or various yahoo web properties. None of them use Java, but they do use 1,000s of lines of JavaScript. Flash would be very nice.

p0intblank
Jan 12, 2007, 09:41 AM
I agree with the majority of posters here who are saying to be patient and just wait and see what Apple does. June is a long ways off and that's plenty of time to add features to the iPhone. Not including Outlook support would not be very smart... and I think Apple knows this.

The moral of this thread: Be patient. :)

NightStorm
Jan 12, 2007, 09:42 AM
It's articles like this one that I don't like. Nowhere did he preface the article by stating that he was working with a pre-release version of the phone. In the keynote, Jobs stated that they are working on getting as many Safari plugins working on the iPhone before release. Does anyone really think they will not have Java/Flash support??? A lot of the issues can be handled by future software upgrades as well, except the 3G support.

As far as 3rd party apps are concerned, I do not want to edit documents on this phone. It's a phone; if I want to do some bigger computer work, I'll pull out my laptop. This is meant to get you information in a quick and easy manner, not replace laptops. I would like 3rd party widget support, and their are some apps that need to be added (RSS reader, but then again maybe the mobile Safari can handle these). A iPhone NetNewsWire would be awesome!

gwangung
Jan 12, 2007, 09:43 AM
I think there's a 3rd way though. You could still let developers have the freedom to develop on it, while offering a selection of all that to the general public. Similar to how the Apple site tends to highlight the better shareware and 3rd party apps.

And similar to WHAT STEVE ACTUALLY HAS SAID.

Jeezus. For a bunch of smart people, there's a real lack of reading comprehension going on around here.

Mitthrawnuruodo
Jan 12, 2007, 09:46 AM
I'm waiting for a real javascript debugger for Safari before I start really paying attention to it.Like Drosera (http://webkit.org/blog/?p=61)?

mdntcallr
Jan 12, 2007, 09:46 AM
it is retarded for apple to NOT Allow anyone to swap batteries on the cell phone. we need that.

EagerDragon
Jan 12, 2007, 10:25 AM
Such wonderful insight. Thanks.

For those that actually contribute to the conversation, the price is justified. You need to take out the price of the iPod that you're buying with the iPhone to understand it. 499-199=300. That's about right for a brand new, top of the line smartphone.

More like 499 - 199 - 100 (for shared components) = 200
Price should be 399, an ipod needs screen, a phone needs a screen, both need a battery, both need an enclosure, those are build in into the price of separate devices, here you only get one of the two, so you should deduct like 100 for what you are not getting. At a minimum it should come down 50.

Carefulle
Jan 12, 2007, 10:33 AM
Was I excited by the iPhone when Steve showed it off? Yes.

Was I prepared to buy one or two (one for the wife) and pay Cingular whatever exorbitant costs it demands to buy and use them? Yes.

If the answers to Pogue's questions are still the same in June, will I still be making this move? No . . . make that a "Hell, no!"

Consider, the old saying, "Redmond, start your photocopiers!" which occured just about every time Apple released a new product. I believe the same could be said, about the iphone. Keep in mind that it may be another company, but as we all know, apple's level of secrecy is very high. To think that as much time that went into the design and function i.e proximity sensor, ambient light sensor, et cetera only to leave out simple software applications is premature. Every cell phone designer is taking cue of the specs involved in the iphone. If apple stated for instance "oh by the way, the iphone also has a built in projector to play your downloaded content onto a 50 ft screen" surely you could imagine nokia or some other company yelling to thier R & D "Johnson!!! I want a projector on the next KRAZR, BLAZR, PROJECTR whatever. Moreover Dave Pogue did not know the specs until it was released, Granted he is a mac advocate, even Cingular, the only carrier for the iphone did not know the final product before the release.
I say this iphone will be everything and then some, although personally I liked the name inewton. Now thats gangsta!

emotion
Jan 12, 2007, 10:33 AM
More like 499 - 199 - 100 (for shared components) = 200
Price should be 399, an ipod needs screen, a phone needs a screen, both need a battery, both need an enclosure, those are build in into the price of separate devices, here you only get one of the two, so you should deduct like 100 for what you are not getting. At a minimum it should come down 50.

What you're forgetting is that these devices cost very little to produce. That's why they make kids work 18 hour days in China to make them.

Your figures don't stack up because of that.

The original argument is what it costs you to have that fucntionality with you.

quigleybc
Jan 12, 2007, 10:33 AM
I don't care

I'll still take two

:)

avalys
Jan 12, 2007, 10:39 AM
I'm sorry, but I will wait until either

a) The product is released.
b) Apple makes an official annoucement

Before getting all worked up about what features the phone has or does not have, rather than trusting the hazy recollection and guesswork of various bloggers who I've never heard of. When David Pogue says "The iPhone doesn't do X", we don't know if he means "I don't think it will do X," "The pre-release version I had didn't do X," or "Steve Jobs said it won't do X.

I mean, iTunes synchronizes Outlook contacts with iPods already - there is no way the iPhone won't.

kingtj
Jan 12, 2007, 10:41 AM
I think the iPhone is a great concept and looks terrific -- but it has too many strikes against it right now. Exclusive U.S. deal with Cingular is a big one. Nobody I know likes Cingular! If US Cellular carried this phone, I'm 95% sure I'd fork over the money and use it. But Cingular is a deal-breaker for me.

But ignoring that issue, the non-replaceable battery is a big negative too. I'm actually ok with that on iPods, because they're just an entertainment device anyway. If the battery quits charging after I've gotten a year or two of good use out of it, who cares really? Just pay for the repair, buy a 3rd. party battery and struggle for 30 mins. or so to get the thing swapped out, or sell it cheap and upgrade to the latest model for $300 or less.

But on a cellphone this expensive? No way! If my battery even loses 1/2 of its original life, that means I'm missing important business calls by the end of the day - and I can't live with that! I can't live without my phone for a few days while it's sent out someplace to be serviced either!


I'm starting to think the iPhone is gonna kinda iStink.

Apple is on a roll right now, but let's not act like everything they do is success. Remember that whole "iPod by HP thing"? And the g4 cube?

In fact I'm calling it right now, the iPhone shall suffer the same faith as the g4 cube. Stunning design, but it just won't find success in the market place.

Although I am looking forward to the full screen iPods of the future, after apple learns from it's mistakes on this first touch screen endeavor.

/trolling :p

pagansoul
Jan 12, 2007, 10:46 AM
I don't think Apple will be releasing a wide screen Ipod with touch screen anytime soon - like not this year. . .There is little upside for them to do this as it would canabalize sales of the IPhone and all metrics for success will be on sales of the IPhone, not on IPods.

Existing IPods will continue to sell once they announce that no new ones will be avail until 08 - to "meet the demand for the IPhone" and when they do release them the price will be close to the Iphone, again, to reduce the impact on the IPhone.

Apple will force users to choose - "old" IPods or new IPhone if you want widescreen functionality. . .this is typical Apple and it will probably work as many/most on this board would, given the choice, opt for a widescreen IPod.

I think your logic is in error. I believe Apple will indeed make a Widescreen ipod without the phone option. They now have the set-up. They will, however wait till the stores of the current ipods are low before they introduce the new product and at a time when they need a new buzz. Maybe between they give out information on the new OS and the time the phone actually appears. They have to pace themselves. Ipod people does not = iphone people. I'm a music and computer person, I don't give a crap about a new phone.

micoroan
Jan 12, 2007, 10:47 AM
It's sad that people here in this forum doesn't realize that the iPhone is a software runned cellphone (or smartphone), that's why it doesnt have any buttons except for the home button. So, what im pointing out is that there's alot of room for software expansion and updates from Apple. Steve Jobs and Apple are trying to control the environment of the Apple because it has a complicated software and it's a risk for them and for the phone to have bugs and errors from other programs made by 3rd party companies. It might ruin all the crucial application that runs the whole thing. And also, we still have like almost 5 months of wait and we might never know if Apple has something up their sleeves that is not annouced or even demoed at the keynote. Remember that the iPhone that they showed is just a prototype. So Flash/Java support will come anytime soon, it's just one installation away so it's not that serious issue. And also they might add some support like Outlook integration, maybe Word on the cellphone or any other programs that Apple will offer. There's alot of room for expansion software wise.

About the hardware issues, well it's hard to tell that Apple will have support for updates from them but still this is a good start for Apple and their iPhone. It sucks though that you can't change or replace your battery and you have to go to the Apple store or send it for battery replacement. They should have hardware expansion program too if users wants to upgrade from EDGE to 3G connection instead of buying a new phone just for that. So the only problem with iPhone is the hardware. But still I'm gonna buy it anyways, and I'm Cingular so it's ok for me coz I can update my phone in August.

So thats it. I'm having fun at this forum and thanks to MacRumors for the updates from the keynote. I still am excited for the products that they annouced from the keynote. :)

rjwill246
Jan 12, 2007, 10:47 AM
Who pays $600 for a cell phone besides business users who are going to require Outlook integration? I was excited about this phone now I'm just disappointed. Its even worse that Apple is going to cripple the ability to add 3rd party applications. Now all the shortcomings of the phone can't be addressed by 3rd parties.

At the same time, this is Apple, and Apple makes sure they are as restrictive and proprietary as possible. You can't expect anything different from their cell phones. Plus, you are also dealing with cell phone companies - the biggest rip-off artists of all time.


So your point would be------- or did I miss the other 12 paragraphs?

carlgo
Jan 12, 2007, 10:56 AM
it is retarded for apple to NOT Allow anyone to swap batteries on the cell phone. we need that.

This seems strange, having to send in your lifeline (for many people) to some central depot to replace a battery. Takes days in transit alone, maybe gets stolen or lost. My mailman can't read, so I get other's mail and they get mine half the time. Might not ever see it again.:mad:

But, iPod owners, can't you just take it down to the Apple store or local computer repair place and have them replace it while u wait? Or, how hard is it really to replace an iPod battery yourself if you are a handy person?

csubear
Jan 12, 2007, 10:57 AM
So,

No third party apps,
No Flash,
No meaningfull PC bussiness syncing,

Why again am I shelling out 500+ on a ipod that just happens to be an phone? I'll stick with my 3165, and 3g ipod until apple pulls there head out of their butt.

ipedro
Jan 12, 2007, 10:58 AM
Japan far ahead of iPhone
Toronto Star

Cellphones there used for everything from buying milk to booking a train
January 12, 2007
Bruce Wallace
SPECIAL TO THE STAR
TOKYO–Tomoaki Kurita presides over racks of cellphones lined up outside his shop on a busy sidewalk in Harajuku, Tokyo's catwalk of youth street culture where people attracted by the riot of phone options can stop to flip open and fondle the latest models of what the Japanese call a "keitai."

From behind his busy counter, Kurita giggles when asked about the excitement in the United States over the arrival of Apple's iPhone cellphone that also could be used to download music and surf the Internet.

"Sounds like business as usual," he says.

As stock markets swooned and techies buzzed over Apple Inc. CEO Steve Jobs' long-awaited entry into the cellphone market, Japanese consumers could be excused for wondering: Why the fuss?

Many Japanese had a hard time buying Jobs' hype about "reinventing" the phone. The revolution is well underway in Japan, where cellphones are used for everything from navigating your way home by GPS to buying movie tickets and updating your blog from wherever you are.

Oh yeah. Japanese cellphones also download music, surf the Net and make phone calls.

They've been a natural extension of daily life the past few years, spurred by the Japanese decision to be the first country to upgrade to third-generation cellphone networks, or 3G, which increased broadband capabilities and allowed for greater, faster transmission of voice and data. Apple's iPhone, by comparison, will operate on a 2G network.

It was 3G that sparked the boom in music downloads that makes it common for phones to be used as portable digital music players here.

And it is 3G that has led the Japanese into a world where they can watch live TV on their phones, use the phone as a charge card to ride trains or buy milk at the corner store or take a taxi, and conduct conference calls between as many as five people. Ticket Pia, Japan's major entertainment ticketing agency, has been selling email tickets to cellphones since 2003.

Most observers contend the U.S. has begun to close the gap on cellphone use in Japan, South Korea and Europe. Music downloads by cellphone are rising in the U.S. – and the long-term threat to iPod's lead in downloads was a major force behind Apple's entry into cellphones. Other functions are following.

"We plan to introduce one-way video conferencing in the U.S. this year," says Melissa Elkins of LG Electronics MobileCOMM, referring to a function that would allow one person to be visible to the other during a phone call. Two-way telephony has been available in South Korea for about 18 months, Elkins says.

But the biggest difference between the U.S. and countries like Japan is the culture the keitai has created. To wait for a light on a Tokyo street corner or ride a train these days is to see crowds of people with their heads down, thumbs pumping as they send photos, text message or play online games on their phone. Increasingly, they are reading books and manga comics on their phones, too.

The keitai has become an extension of personality.

There is software to create a personalized home page on the cellphone. Young men and women customize their phones, hang posses of tiny dolls off them, cover them with stickers and paints.

"I like it because it's cute," says Mami Nawa, 23, as she shows off the dial pad she has painted in purple and pink tones. "And with my long nails, the paint gives me a better feel for the phone. It curves more."

Nawa spent about $170 (U.S.) on her phone and another $25 to decorate it, although she says some friends spend much more – on the decoration, not the phone. But neither she nor friend Makiko Yamada, who are sampling the phones in Harajuku, would pay anything close to $500 for a cellphone, they say.

Like other Japanese consumers, Nawa and Yamada pick and choose the functions they want. They don't use their phones as charge cards – known here as the "wallet function."

But they check train schedules and have made hotel reservations with their phones. They keep music on their phones and subscribe to daily emails that deliver news headlines and fortune telling. They shop from their phones from online sites and bid for goods in online auctions.

Source (http://www.thestar.com/News/article/170455)

ipedro
Jan 12, 2007, 11:00 AM
As I expected, Asia was going to shrug this off. They might like this phone, but by the time it gets there in 2008, it better be more competitive in that market. Right now, there are plenty of options in Japan that go with the "disposable phone" philosophy that currently exists there and in most of the world.

KEL9000
Jan 12, 2007, 11:05 AM
no 3g + closed platform + no office support + 8gb + super ui + requires cpu to download to it + 2 year commitment + no video phone != $600

it is ok for the ipod to be closed, its really only a media player. but for a "smart phone" to by hamstrung by what ever apple thinks you need is a joke. I hope the consumers speak with their pocket books and hold off until apple realizes all this.

Hombre
Jan 12, 2007, 11:07 AM
Has anyone noticed Robin Williams in Dave Pogues video blog? At about 4:30 Williams says how much he likes the iPhone. This is understatement and very much Jumanji ;-)!

CJD2112
Jan 12, 2007, 11:10 AM
Two more questions to add to the long list:
1) Does the screen scratch easily? Smudges don’t worry me as much as scratching (and I’m surprised no one has addressed this issue yet).
2) Will there be full bluetooth OBEX capabilities? (i.e. will I be able to download files such as ringtones and pictures to and from my phone as I currently can with my Cingular RAZR?)
I have to admit, along with many others I was enthralled and captivated (i.e. ooo’ing and awww’ing) with the glitz and glamour of the iPhone, however in some regards it would be a DOWNGRADE in technology. HSDPA has been around for a while, and I am a little more than disappointed that Apple, Inc. (still getting used to that) hasn’t included that functionality in the unit, ESPECIALLY given Safari’s and Mail’s hunger for rich HTML pages and pictures. A faster bandwidth would most assuredly be a necessity, otherwise I can readily predict frustration in web browsing and email reading. If this “glass” screen is anything similar to the video iPod, then scratching will definitley be an issue. The lack of voice recognization and iTunes ringtones is a bit perplexing as well, although it doesn’t seem clear to me whether a bluetooth headset would automatically detect handsfree recognition (something my Verizon RAZR does without voice programming each contact entry, unlike, sadly, my Cingular RAZR which requires each contact entry be programmed for handsfree dialing).

What's the big deal about Cingular??? SERIOUSLY. I have used Verizon for years and switched to Cingular. The customer service is far better, with improvements in 3G (HSDPA) technology, download rates are on par with Verizon's, and they don't screw over their customers by locking features on phones other providers offer (i.e. Verizon's disabling Bluetooth OBEX to force customers to pay for downloading ringtones and pictures). CDMA limits use to North America only; it's dated and ineffecient. Why does everyone defend Verizon? The company is horrible. More over, would Steve Job's pick a bad cell phone carrier to launch a product his career might be staked on? Apple, Inc.'s choice to use Cingular will open many peoples' eyes to the reality that Verizon is NOT the only choice in excellent mobile service.

Hopefully these issues will be resolved either before June’s launch or within the year, otherwise I won’t be buying any time soon (especially for $599)

whooleytoo
Jan 12, 2007, 11:17 AM
no 3g + closed platform + no office support + 8gb + super ui + requires cpu to download to it + 2 year commitment + no video phone != $600

it is ok for the ipod to be closed, its really only a media player. but for a "smart phone" to by hamstrung by what ever apple thinks you need is a joke. I hope the consumers speak with their pocket books and hold off until apple realizes all this.

I don't think Office support is as important for consumer phone buyers as it is for the (traditionally) pro smartphone users. I don't think this device is in any way targetted at the Pro market, they're going for a much, much wider "the rest of us" - thus paralleling the Mac's reasoning and development.

I have a hunch Apple will open the iPhone up, just not initially. If Apple open the platform up to 3rd party developers, every analyst in the industry will warn the device's survival depends on the developer community - thus taking the iPhone's future chances largely out of Apple's hands. I think (and hope) once the device starts selling well, they'll release an SDK.

The 8GB is pretty good for a smartphone, isn't it? Compared to music players, I don't know of many Flash devices that have much more.

Incidentally, what does it use for RAM? I heard the Flash used in music players isn't suitable as it has a more limited number of re-writes.

sishaw
Jan 12, 2007, 11:17 AM
But, iPod owners, can't you just take it down to the Apple store or local computer repair place and have them replace it while u wait? Or, how hard is it really to replace an iPod battery yourself if you are a handy person?

It's not that easy. My experience is with the 4th gen, maybe the 5th gen is different. Here's how it seemed to me: getting the case open without damaging it is quite difficult--it is very tight. Then, the wire from the battery that you have to remove runs UNDER the main board at one point, so you need a special screwdriver (Newertech sells them very reasonably) to undo the screws at the bottom. And, there are a couple of very thin, very small ribbon connectors that you have to be careful not to damage.

My suggestion would be--you take your iPhone to the Cingular store. They send it in for battery replacement. In the meantime, they loan you a temporary phone (just a plain one, with your SIM card in it), for free, while you wait for your iPhone to come back. For a premium price, one should get premium service!

lorien
Jan 12, 2007, 11:18 AM
I still like the iPhone. I think people have to remember its aimed at consumers (that have the money) rather than business customers.

I wouldn't mind WiFi syncing though

Exactly! How many consumers absolutely have to have Outlook syncing anyway?! The same people that had orgasms after the release are whining now that it's not everything plus the kitchen sink. Apple has, for many years now, targeted the more wealthy consumer sector (macs have traditionally been more expensive than pc's). The iPhone is clearly going after the same market, for the moment anyway.

twoodcc
Jan 12, 2007, 11:20 AM
Does anyone know how much any of these things will change by June?


that's a good question....not sure. probably not i'm guessing

mnemonix
Jan 12, 2007, 11:20 AM
I've been a quiet but devoted mac user since the days of the Classic but looking at the front page today... all but one post about a freaking mobile phone.

That's it for me I'm afraid, Apple is all about expensive aspirational life style products now for people with too much money, no sense, and little interest in real innovation. I already have a phone. iTV is near useless outside of the US.

While we're at it, the computers are technically the same as current generation pcs now other than being hobbled by Apples proprietry interests, so while you guys get excited about each 0.2GHz speedbump in processor speed, the enthusiast pc community are already overclocking their Core2Duos well beyond 3GHZ in stock configuration.

There is increasingly less to choose between OSX and Linux save a few brushed metal dialogue boxes as an alternative to windows.

For the first time in 15 years I have zero interest in replacing my current mac (a 12" powerbook) when it dies.

tschull
Jan 12, 2007, 11:22 AM
I think there's a 3rd way though. You could still let developers have the freedom to develop on it, while offering a selection of all that to the general public. Similar to how the Apple site tends to highlight the better shareware and 3rd party apps.

A lot of the general public aren't going to go to the trouble of going on versiontracker and downloading/installing something manually. Apple could just offer what they consider the best direct to the iPhone via the browser, while still letting other people play with whatever they want.

I think the restrictions are driven by Cingular and a desire to have yearly model/feature updates rather than a desire to protect the consumer personally.

Why put in a full version of an OS without some use for it?

Article from Macworld:

The iPhone is running an optimised but full version of OS X that weighs in at “considerably less” than half a GB, according to Apple vice president of worldwide iPod marketing Greg Joswiak.

Joswiak confirmed that the operating system sits in the flash memory of the device and that Apple will “provide updates to the operating system like we do today.”

He emphasised: “Apple has a proven and very smooth update mechanism for everything from our computers to our iPods. We will follow that kind of model here, which is an advantage a lot of phones don’t have.”

Joswiak claimed that the reduced size of the operating system was a result of expertise of the team at Apple, rather than cutting out functionality or removing core technologies. “Remember that OS X on a Mac features a lot of applications that we don’t have to ship on the iPhone,” he added.

The optimised operating system sits in the flash memory. According to Joswiak, Apple chose flash because it is “more versatile” than a hard drive, this decision ruled out a larger hard drive, at least for now. “Flash has some nice advantages for us in putting it in that form factor. It’s very small and very durable,” Joswiak said.

Damek
Jan 12, 2007, 11:26 AM
I'm excited by the iPhone, but disappointed by all its lacking capabilities. Still, I'm encouraged by comparison with the iPod, which was primitive and really pretty bad at the start (limited to only Apple customers, interface could be improved, yada yada), but has evolved to be much more refined and pretty complete in terms of what I like and need.

I hope the iPhone follows a similar route and expect that, by 2010, which is coincidentally just about the time I'd be expecting to treat myself to one, they'll be much better, cheaper, and more widely available.

If not, of course, by then there will be much better and more refined other phones as well, no doubt.

DuckyDelite
Jan 12, 2007, 11:28 AM
I don't understand this iPhone announcement at all. Of all the rumored devices to be released at MacWorld, the best we get is a half-baked prototype of a phone?

Why didn't they just release this as a widescreen video iPod with a 60gig drive? All it needs is a little kickstand and this would be serious competition for the Archos 604. And it would completely crush the Zune.

As a phone, I don't get. It's 6 months from release. There are better phones available today for 1/3 the price. Yes, it's sexy and the multitouch screen is very cool. But I already have a phone. What I don't have is a great widescreen portable video player.

Steve, where's my new monitors with built in iSights? Where's my 12-inch MacBook Pro? Where's my quad-quad MacPros? Where's something I can buy today?

fastdrive
Jan 12, 2007, 11:29 AM
I have a SE P910 that I use for all of my business needs. It's a great phone.

The Iphone to me is a lifestyle phone. Can it do 1/2 the things my P910 can do..no..but I'm going to be first in line to buy the iphone.

Apple is catering to the people who enjoy cool gadgets and style. There are a lot of people out there, that it's going to be hard to find this in stock when it launches.

I also hope that they don't open this up to 3rd party developers. I don't want apps released that don't work seamlessly in convergence. If you saw the keynote and saw how SJ showed how it would work in real life, music fades, put someone on hold, send them pic or email, go back to call, or keep talking to them on speaker..that's what this product is about. Seemless integration that I am afraid a lot of 3rd party developers are just not going to be meticulous about as apple is.

CJD2112
Jan 12, 2007, 11:29 AM
I think the iPhone is a great concept and looks terrific -- but it has too many strikes against it right now. Exclusive U.S. deal with Cingular is a big one. Nobody I know likes Cingular! If US Cellular carried this phone, I'm 95% sure I'd fork over the money and use it. But Cingular is a deal-breaker for me.


I don't get the Cingular hate mobile. Why? I have used Verizon for years, but after being screwed numerous times I switched to Cingular. Some basic points in comparing Cingular to Verizon (which most people seem to defend):

1) Verizon is known for billing mistakes (I have countless friends who have had billing disputes with Verizon for not updating plan changes when made and not giving their loyal customers the benefit of the doubt). I was billed three times ranging from $300-400 dollars OVER a month because the Verizon rep didn't properly implement changes in my minutes and media allowments, not once, not twice, but THREE TIMES. What could I do? NOTHING.

2) Verizon cripples features on their phones that are available to other carriers. Verizon crippled the Bluetooth OBEX, forcing customers to pay for ringtones and file/picture downloads. Verizon's P.R. fully admitted this decision as a "business tactic", which ended up placing them in court in defense of Verizon's crippling Bluetooth OBEX on the Motorola v710 (and they lost, big time).

3) Cingular's network does have 3G and HSDPA, which is on par with download rates as Verizon and Sprint's 3G networks (so why all the misinformation about download rates?), AND as a GSM phone it can be used internationally (except for Japan, which doesn't allow any outside carrier).

4) Verizon's customer service is a JOKE. Cingular's reps are actually NICE and cordial (something American's seem to be forgetting - respectfulness).

5) Would Steve Jobs stake his career on a new product with a bad mobile carrier? I think not.

It seems a lot of people are talking out of ignorance, bad P.R. and heresay. Has anyone actually personally used Cingular (and don't lie) or made the change from another carrier (Verizon) to Cingular to discuss pertinent issues? Would someone please explain to me the hate for Cingular? Please.

Surreal
Jan 12, 2007, 11:32 AM
Safari is more crash-prone than firefox. Firefox also has session restore which brings you back to where you were right before it crashed.

FF is also faster and my websites are optimized for it. I'm waiting for a real javascript debugger for Safari before I start really paying attention to it.

that's not so relevant as i was stalking about flash.

not safari or Firefox. both crash. the problem is flash on a mac.

drbroom
Jan 12, 2007, 11:35 AM
I guess I will not be getting one after all... ATT wireless is the worst service in the world TDMA sucks and if I can't "open" the phone then well... LG KE850

Apple if you read these posts, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE rethink this and dump AT&T. Open the phone up so we all can buy it independently and choose our own service.

So what if the "Phone company" doesn't support us, None of them do now!!!

mr.suff
Jan 12, 2007, 11:35 AM
my take on this iphone deal is that all new products cost more than a counterpoint device from another company, this is how apple works. premium products cost more money, for example take the nokia 8800, when first launched it was about £300 with a contract, the product lacked many new technologies, yet there is a market for it. the iphone is a premium product, and will not be in most people's price range until a few generations later, the ipod did not really take off until generation 3.
the apple iphone is an amazing product, and i do not quite see the problem with price. its locked to one provider, so the numbers sold will not be as high, therefore the subsidy on the carriers part is low, will be made in reasonably small quatitites for a mobile phone, cingular had to change their network somewhat to accomadate the visual voicemail elements.
if apple had not partnered with just one network they would have had a much harder time in getting all of the major networks to change the network's to change their systems for the visual voicemail, which is probably why the price from cingular is higher than people would want, your paying for cingular to change the network.

sorry for the long post, but this is just my input on the situation, having read the many topics.

suff

shawnce
Jan 12, 2007, 11:37 AM
I'm waiting for a real javascript debugger for Safari before I start really paying attention to it. What do you call Drosera (http://webkit.org/blog/?p=61)?

slffl
Jan 12, 2007, 11:41 AM
I have no problems with any of this. Can't wait for it. :D

CJD2112
Jan 12, 2007, 11:47 AM
I guess I will not be getting one after all... ATT wireless is the worst service in the world TDMA sucks and if I can't "open" the phone then well... LG KE850

Apple if you read these posts, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE rethink this and dump AT&T. Open the phone up so we all can buy it independently and choose our own service.

So what if the "Phone company" doesn't support us, None of them do now!!!

Cingular is NOT ATT. Why does it suck? Read this article, it might enlighten you:

http://www.arcx.com/sites/CDMAvsTDMA.htm

color guy
Jan 12, 2007, 11:50 AM
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=cingular+sucks&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8



I don't get the Cingular hate mobile. Why? I have used Verizon for years, but after being screwed numerous times I switched to Cingular. Some basic points in comparing Cingular to Verizon (which most people seem to defend):

1) Verizon is known for billing mistakes (I have countless friends who have had billing disputes with Verizon for not updating plan changes when made and not giving their loyal customers the benefit of the doubt). I was billed three times ranging from $300-400 dollars OVER a month because the Verizon rep didn't properly implement changes in my minutes and media allowments, not once, not twice, but THREE TIMES. What could I do? NOTHING.

2) Verizon cripples features on their phones that are available to other carriers. Verizon crippled the Bluetooth OBEX, forcing customers to pay for ringtones and file/picture downloads. Verizon's P.R. fully admitted this decision as a "business tactic", which ended up placing them in court in defense of Verizon's crippling Bluetooth OBEX on the Motorola v710 (and they lost, big time).

3) Cingular's network does have 3G and HSDPA, which is on par with download rates as Verizon and Sprint's 3G networks (so why all the misinformation about download rates?), AND as a GSM phone it can be used internationally (except for Japan, which doesn't allow any outside carrier).

4) Verizon's customer service is a JOKE. Cingular's reps are actually NICE and cordial (something American's seem to be forgetting - respectfulness).

5) Would Steve Jobs stake his career on a new product with a bad mobile carrier? I think not.

It seems a lot of people are talking out of ignorance, bad P.R. and heresay. Has anyone actually personally used Cingular (and don't lie) or made the change from another carrier (Verizon) to Cingular to discuss pertinent issues? Would someone please explain to me the hate for Cingular? Please.
_____



http://www.consumersearch.com/www/electronics/cell-phone-plans/index.html

Digital Skunk
Jan 12, 2007, 11:57 AM
MS Office can go blow itself man.... sorry.... that was to brash of me..:o

I meant to say that MS Office support is not as necessary for me. Apple either needs to keep Office as an option but still raise iWork to a worthy competitor (it isn't yet but can be, and be greater)

OR

Scrap office support and just make iWork the must buy application (still making it a worthy competitor to Office) Pages should be able to save or export Word documents and just as Keynote should still be able to with Powerpoint docs.

The iPhone should sync with Pages and Keynote documents. iCal, Address Book and .Mac. I should be able to access my online storage from the phone, pull up a Pages doc, edit it, and then save it to the phone and online. review Keynote pages in full color and with full graphics and video and audio.

Nothing like the crappy PowerPoint on DocumentsToGo. Then people (like I have already done) can drop MS Office altogether. The only time I have to see a Word file is when I have to export so a Windows friend of mine has to read it. :D

That is the way Apple should go... If they don't... then support OpenOffice and free the world of tyranny. :cool:

Digital Skunk
Jan 12, 2007, 12:06 PM
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=cingular+sucks&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8







http://www.consumersearch.com/www/electronics/cell-phone-plans/index.html

I am glad I have read these. Now I can definitely keep my Sprint service.:D

CJD2112
Jan 12, 2007, 12:16 PM
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=cingular+sucks&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8







http://www.consumersearch.com/www/electronics/cell-phone-plans/index.html

right back at ya:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=safari&rls=en&q=Verizon+wireless+sucks&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=safari&rls=en&q=I+HATE+VERIZON&btnG=Search

As for your other article, I can find countless articles (which are basically OPINIONS) as to why Verizon and Sprint suck:

http://www.my3cents.com/search.cgi?criteria=verizon&usearch=X

http://www.epinions.com/content_110157663876

I found countless articles online that state how bad Verizon wireless and Sprint are (see, when you type in "[COMPANY] sucks" you will get articles about opinions on the company sucking (funny how that works). Keep in mind, people do NOT go online to write about how great the service is (in general) but do so when they have issues with the service. When service runs well, most people don't think twice about it.

Another point in the consumer article was WRONG: Cingular uses EDGE and 3G/HSDPA, which is just as fast if not faster than Verizon's download rates. Hating is easy, educating yourself on ALL the facts is essential.

Look, in the end, both companies have great technology with very minimal differences. Personally, I would rather spend my money on a company that DOES NOT dictate what I can and can not do with my phone, as Verizon does with crippling Bluetooth OBEX and other features readily available to me through Cingular mobile devices.

references here:
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1751567,00.asp

http://www.canyouhearusnow.net/v710/v710story.php

Plus, when I travel internationally, my Cingular GSM/3G phone works perfectly, unlike Verizon and Sprint CDMA dated technology. More over, CDMA technology is NOT as upgradable as GSM; what will happen when Verizon becomes overloaded, which WILL happen?

Carniphage
Jan 12, 2007, 12:23 PM
Look into the magic glass on the iPhone and the future reveals itself.
I foresee....

1) New features revealed before the phone is released.
2) Bugfixes will appear soon after launch.
3) The high price will fall. With the first cut in early November.
4) 3rd party software will come - but through Apple's ratification process. Buy through iTunes. You'll get additional functionality, you just won't have the freedom to screw up your own phone with shitware.
4a) Someone will probably figure a way round this.
5) 3G will happen for the European or Asian release.
6) Exchange integration will appear.
7) The exclusivity period with Cingluar will come to an end. (Soon if they miss their sales targets)

If you think a device is a collection of features, and that the more features you get the better the device is, then go buy something else. This is not a phone for you.

But if your current phone sucks, because it is like a bag of features which are impossible to use. Then stick around. This is going to get interesting.

C. with crystal balls.

TheBobcat
Jan 12, 2007, 12:29 PM
This is just like all the bitching when they announced iPod and everyone was pissed it wasn't a Newton, and we all know how that turned out, don't we? Too expensive! No features! Already done other places better! Waaah!

Oh, and PS: Businesses won't buy this phone even if it did sync with MS Office and whatnot, its too fancy. Businesses like cheap and easily replaceable. That's why businesses don't like Apple. Aside from a few small businesses, this will mostly be a smartphone for the masses.

I believe that this will be the phone to really compel the average person to think more of their phone than just what a basic phone is now. The smartphone market is small because most people don't see any advantages for their personal life. They just want a phone thats easy to use and that works. That's the market that Apple is going for, and the market where I think they have a chance. They're not going to take down Palm and RIM in the corporate arena, but they can definitely hurt Moto and Nokia for the average people that want more from their phone without the mess and don't want a piece of crap like Chocolate. :D

And as far as Cingular goes, they may not be the best carrier, but at least Apple didn't settle with a CDMA carrier and piss off all the Euros. Or allow any other carrier to compromise their UI extensively. And also to Cingluar's credit, they basically bent over and took it from Apple, developing random access voicemail and not even seeing a prototype until extremely recently and not compromising the UI or crippling functionality. Either way, this phone should be on T-Mobile within 12-18 months, max. And by then they should already have a Rev B that improves on everything. The exclusive deal was for iPhone, not for 2G iPhone.

So again, stop crapping your pants and getting all wound up already. Jeez.

BuzWeaver
Jan 12, 2007, 12:32 PM
One of the key factors from a business perspective was Steve's example of the cell phone market 'itself'. If Apple Inc. gets just 1% as the illustration showed (1 billion cell phone users/world wide) then Steve will probably be happy with 100 million sales.

freeny
Jan 12, 2007, 12:37 PM
This thread is full of those who see the phone for what it is (realists)
and those who see it for what it isnt (dreamers).

Either buy the phone or dont and quityerbitchin!:rolleyes:

CJD2112
Jan 12, 2007, 12:40 PM
Cingular:

Cingular Wireless, LLC, headquartered in Atlanta, Georgia, is an AT&T subsidiary and the largest mobile phone company in the United States and Puerto Rico, with more than 59.8 million subscribers. The company has the largest digital voice and data network in the United States.

Cingular was formed through mergers and acquisitions, and as a result of these - as well as the rapid technological change in the wireless industry - Cingular operates wireless networks using many different wireless communication standards. The most widely used of these technologies is called Global System for Mobile Communications, or GSM. On top of its GSM network Cingular operates a data network called GPRS (General Packet Radio Service) and an upgrade for faster speeds called EDGE (Enhanced Data rates for GSM Evolution). Cingular supports their legacy TDMA and analog networks; however in March 2006 they announced that these networks would be shut down by February 2008. As part of this effort, Cingular will charge a $5 monthly fee to those customers who still use TDMA-based phones. Former networks include various paging services and the Cingular Interactive division that became Velocita Wireless which was recently purchased by Sprint Nextel.

In Q1 2006, Cingular Wireless, LLC reported in its first-quarter financial statement that regulatory complaints (complaints to the FCC, Better Business Bureaus and other regulatory or semiregulatory bodies) were reduced over 56% compared to the same quarter one year prior.

Verizon
Verizon Wireless owns and operates the second-largest wireless telecommunications network in the United States, based on total wireless customers.

1) Verizon "cripples" the file and media transferring features of many of their cellphone offerings in order to force customers to purchase content through its "Get It Now" service. One example is the LG VX8500, a phone that features full MP3 player support. (It has a miniSD card to store MP3s, and play and pause/stop buttons on the front of the phone.) Verizon initially modified the phone's firmware to prevent MP3s from being used altogether. While newer phones were sold with the MP3 player re-enabled, and customers were usually informed of this feature, they still cannot be used as ringtones. The newest version of this phone has once again disabled this capability. Verizon's policy is in contrast to its major competitors (both GSM and CDMA): Cingular, T-Mobile, Sprint Nextel, and Alltel; which allow their customers to use all the features that are available in the manufacturer's reference firmware design.

Verizon advertised the Motorola V710 as having full Bluetooth capability, when in reality it had no OBEX or OPP functions built in. After many complaints, a class action suit was filed for false advertising, not only for advertising missing capabilities, but also for telling customers who complained to Verizon that an update was coming out "in November." The lawsuit was initiated in January of 2005 and settlement decision became final on March 20, 2006. The settlement to the lawsuit did not directly address the V710's restrictions. The same hardware crippling exists with Motorola's successor to the V710, the E815, but unlike the V710, the E815 was marked clearly that OBEX and OPP was disabled. Other carriers' versions of the V710, while still possessing some restrictions to the Bluetooth functionality, are much less restrictive overall, allowing full use of the customer's own MIDI and MP3 files for ringtones, etc.

2) Verizon makes heavy use of Qualcomm's BREW technology, and uses it over Java in case of phones where both are an option. By using BREW (which is branded Get It Now), Verizon locks users into its own applications, making it impossible to install anything Verizon doesn't offer. Programs such as the standard mail reader included in some phones were removed, forcing people to buy expensive mail readers from Get It Now. It is not uncommon for CDMA carriers to implement BREW. Most of the US CDMA carriers currently use BREW. Sprint Nextel is the main exception. They have opted for the Java interface.

3) Verizon Wireless has removed features in firmware updates for the Motorola V710 and several other newer phones for ringtone transfers, making it more difficult - but not impossible - to transfer MP3s from the phone's microSD card. This update also disabled editing of the homepage field in WebSessions making it more difficult to use alternate WAP gateways.

4) Verizon Wireless has recently implemented a standard user interface across all handsets. Somewhat reminiscent of LG's interface, this standard reduces support training costs. However, it has also anecdotally alienated many brand-loyal customers who find it not aesthetically pleasing, only minimally customizable, slower than the previous interface, and a hindrance to the functioning of several previously available phone features.

5) Verizon Wireless has come under fire by "power users" of its EV-DO wireless data network (called BroadbandAccess), for using language in its terms of service which heavily restricts what activities an EV-DO user can conduct even though the service is advertised as offering "Unlimited" data usage. The language in Verizon Wireless' usage agreement states "Unlimited NationalAccess/BroadbandAccess services cannot be used for uploading, downloading or streaming of movies, music or games, with server devices or with host computer applications, including, but not limited to, Web camera posts or broadcasts, automatic data feeds, Voice over IP (VoIP), automated machine-to-machine connections, or peer-to-peer (P2P) file sharing, or as a substitute or backup for private lines or dedicated data connections... We reserve right to limit throughput or amount of data transferred, deny or terminate service, without notice, to anyone we believe is using NationalAccess or BroadbandAccess in any manner prohibited above or whose usage adversely impacts our network or service levels."

Not only does Verizon limit the type of "unlimited" use, it imposes a quota on "unlimited" use, and terminates customers who exceed it. According to the Washington Post., Broadband Reports, tech columnist Robert X. Cringely, many wireless industry "insider" news sites, and countless blogs; Verizon advertises "unlimited" broadband service reserves the right to terminate anyone using more than 5G/month (166M/day). This is a quota of about 15 minutes of continuous data transmission time per day. A PBS investigator monitored his bandwidth during normal use and discovered it to be 184M/day.

6) Verizon has advertised picture/video (MMS) messaging as an "IN" Service that will not cost you the normal $0.25 fee per message, or will not deduct from a fixed number of messages plan as long as both parties use Verizon. They however do not mention that there is a data transfer charge at $.015/KB transferred. This hidden charge is imposed on all "data" phones regardless of whether your plan states that you get free "Pix/Flix." Because of this, even a small image transfer can end up costing several dollars.
Verizon has stated that this charge is due to a difference in the way "data phones" transmit pictures and video(by connecting to the data network).

7) Several customers have reported being mis-quoted billing rates for data transfer by customer service representatives over the phone. The company quoted rates such as "0.002¢ per kb" when the actual billed rate was "$0.002 per kb", 100 times more than the quoted rate. Attempts to rectify the discrepancy were hampered by an apparent inabillity for anyone at Verizon to recognize the difference between the two values.

...and yet Cingular sucks? That's a lot of complaints and legal issues with Verizon Wireless...

Draelius
Jan 12, 2007, 12:43 PM
...they won't sell a dozen of them. Power users will have no need for it. Kids won't have the money.

CJD2112
Jan 12, 2007, 12:43 PM
And as far as Cingular goes, they may not be the best carrier, but at least Apple didn't settle with a CDMA carrier and piss off all the Euros. Or allow any other carrier to compromise their UI extensively. And also to Cingluar's credit, they basically bent over and took it from Apple, developing random access voicemail and not even seeing a prototype until extremely recently and not compromising the UI or crippling functionality. Either way, this phone should be on T-Mobile within 12-18 months, max. And by then they should already have a Rev B that improves on everything. The exclusive deal was for iPhone, not for 2G iPhone.

Thank you, now I don't feel so alone in this LOL. Honestly, both companies have pro's and con's. As an ex-Verizon customer and as Cingular has changed course and is currently rapidly improving many of its own faults, I have been pleased with them so far and am looking forward to its recent advancements.

stcanard
Jan 12, 2007, 12:44 PM
Okay foolish as I am I will chime in here although I know this thread is just going to be used to bash based on preconceived opinions, but here we go...

- Can it open Word and Excel documents? –No. (Steve Jobs says it can open PDF files, though.)

.... Yet. What is it about "multipurpose CPU" and installable "Applications" that people don't get? When I got my Palm Smartphone it didn't open Word and Excel documents. Then I installed an application, and it did.

- Will it sync with Outlook? –No.

..... Yet. See above.

Only approved applications can be installed, for quality control

This depends on how its managed, but lets face it ... when I was looking for free applications for my Palm, 99.9% of the stuff out there was absolute, utter, and total cr*p, that I had to wipe because it destabilized my phone. The stuff that I kept was good quality, supported by a company or a developer, and cost money.

If Apple allows people to submit applications for review, approves and sells them through their site then the iPhone will get applications like everyone wants, but keep a reputation for high quality. This is the kind of thing Apple goes for, and I expect the way they will go.

If anyone can download anything, then likely the iPhone will get a reputation like Palms for being buggy and unstable (as I've seen mentioned elsewhere, I had memorized how to hit the reset button for my Smartphone and could do it blindfolded, in the dark, in a gale).

CJD2112
Jan 12, 2007, 12:45 PM
...they won't sell a dozen of them. Power users will have no need for it. Kids won't have the money.

This phone isn't for kids or businessmen. Just like the iPod, people were dissing it: "too expensive", "don't like digital music", "can't own songs", "vynyl or cd's". Look what happened years later. Apple, Inc. is raising the bar, pushing the industry to rethink and retool and with the free market, that is a good thing. Of course this phone won't sell like hot cakes, it's not supposed to, and it's directed to a small segment of the market initially (just as the iPod was when it was first released). In a few years time, let's all come back and discuss, I will be looking forward to where the iPhone and what it stands for will take us.

stcanard
Jan 12, 2007, 12:59 PM
Oh and one more thing that's really, really, been bugging me.

OSX is not 3GB. OSX -- the XNU kernel + a few supporting libraries that are core to the operation of the system -- is probably less than 100 MB. Its very easy to put a _real_ OSX on something of this size, just as it is to put Linux on an iPod.

manu chao
Jan 12, 2007, 01:03 PM
You pre-order the iPhone, without contract and SIM card and unlocked, at Amazon in Germany for 899 Euro and 999 Euro (4 GB and 8 GB model):
http://www.amazon.de/Apple-iPhone-8GB-Handy/dp/B0002W4P0C/sr=8-2/qid=1168614420/ref=sr_1_2/303-3866785-0845002?ie=UTF8&s=ce-de

http://www.amazon.de/Apple-IPhone-4GB-iPhone-Handy/dp/B0002W4OVW/sr=1-1/qid=1168614915/ref=sr_1_1/303-3866785-0845002?ie=UTF8&s=ce-de

CHROMEDOME
Jan 12, 2007, 01:05 PM
Why is there no iChat support, and then no 3rd party apps so I can't get adium. I need a IM client on my phone, whhyyyyy.:confused:

BrianMojo
Jan 12, 2007, 01:05 PM
Am I the only one who is really pissed off that you CANNOT add songs from iTunes as ringtones? This is the kind of industry ********* that I can't stand, and the kind of thing that Apple, with its "just makes sense" technology, shouldn't be endorsing. I don't care if they needed a partner, it's just money-grubbing ridiculousness at its finest.

Other ridiculousness: No Instant Messaging support outside of the pay-for-each-outgoing-AND-INCOMING-SMS -- again, ridiculous. Other countries don't pay for incoming messages and you shouldn't have to! If Apple is looking to revolutionize the phone, then you have to revolutionize the service and knock down these patently ludicrous barricades that they have set up just so they can make a buck.

WestonHarvey1
Jan 12, 2007, 01:15 PM
I don't think there is going to be Exchange support. Why? Because Mail still doesn't have Exchange support - real Exchange support, not IMAP. IMAP doesn't support everything, and many organizations (like mine) turn off IMAP access to the Exchange server, so even getting just your email is out.

If it really won't be able to run applications, then this phone really is not for business customers. I'll stick with my Treo, no matter how much I hate Windows Mobile, because I'm not going to buy 2 phones and 2 plans and somehow separate my work from my "digital lifestyle".

Apple is betting that consumers will suddenly want to pay a ton of money for a phone, the way the iPod made them suddenly want to spend a lot of money on an MP3 player. They don't seem to want the business market - this was probably a deliberate decision.

Too bad, because I really want one.

sishaw
Jan 12, 2007, 01:22 PM
Oh and one more thing that's really, really, been bugging me.

OSX is not 3GB. OSX -- the XNU kernel + a few supporting libraries that are core to the operation of the system -- is probably less than 100 MB. Its very easy to put a _real_ OSX on something of this size, just as it is to put Linux on an iPod.

I read in an article that the OSX on the iPhone is .5 (one-half) gig.

kddpop
Jan 12, 2007, 01:31 PM
all this talk of needing 3rd party apps...
i agree that its great to find a specific little app for my palm that only a small time code writer would produce due to lack of market. but i also really like the class of apple's closed systems. allow me to explain.

apple is selling a lifestyle device (as stated elsewhere in this very thread). part of that lifestyle is that things just work. you don't have to "geek around" to get an app to work. closing the system makes this possible.

another aspect of the apple lifestyle is simplicity. with a closed system, things are simpler...you don't have a choice between 30 different solitare programs, half of which are total garbage. you don't find 30 million pages of crappy, cheesy, pc-oriented websites when you google for an app for an apple platform. true, you loose out on choices. and i like choices. but i also like simplicity.

thats one of my main gripes about cell phones. i want to install a ringtone or game and i search around the web for it and....ugh....just page after page of pr0n-ad driven, animated gif riddled tripe that hurts my eyes, often not even having anything to do with the game or app im looking for. im willing to sacrifice some choice in order to have a more pleasant experience with the apple iphone.

we must keep in mind, apple is really good at making a device that is really good at what its designed to do. apple avoids truly crippling their products by making them completely open. the apple iphone will not meet every single need of every single consumer. it will meet the needs it is designed to meet and meet them more elegantly than any other product out there. yes, for that, you pay a premium. that is, if you choose to pay it. there is no law forcing anyone to buy it. if the iphone doesnt meet your needs, then dont buy it. i believe that it will meet the needs of many many people.

so, while it may not be the device for you, it may just well be the device for millions of others.

just my take on it today. tomorrow i might spout differently.

~kyle

jwa276
Jan 12, 2007, 01:31 PM
Geez... Why don't you just pay the 5 bucks extra or something per month to have your unlimited text messages.... It's not apple's fault.

Just because there is no iChat client now doesn't mean there will never be one. Take a chill pill guys. This phone boasts features that all work seamlessly in a revolutionary & slick interface. And besides- this is Apple's first phone. Give 'em a chance already, good lord!!!

wkhahn
Jan 12, 2007, 01:31 PM
Now full fledged apps... they could be trouble if there's no Desktop application manager for the iPhone... how else would you get a buggy app off the device?
...
Plus side, I can see a big market FOR widgets rather than full fledged apps.. you can do a lot with widgets (calculators, text editors, etc).

This is exactly what I've been thinking about the "lack" of 3rd party apps. The couple of apps shown were weather widget and stock widget. And since widgets did not require a rewrite for the Intel switch, I doubt they would for the iPhone processor either, especially since OSX lives under it all.
I think they will handle 3rd party apps the same way they do widgets: You develop it, you submit it, Apple tests it then distributes it. I'm sure there will be some free, like Marquee, and some that you might have to pay for, say a word or excel viewer. such as version of iCdocs that will let you edit.

Warbrain
Jan 12, 2007, 01:35 PM
I don't think there is going to be Exchange support. Why? Because Mail still doesn't have Exchange support - real Exchange support, not IMAP. IMAP doesn't support everything, and many organizations (like mine) turn off IMAP access to the Exchange server, so even getting just your email is out.

If it really won't be able to run applications, then this phone really is not for business customers. I'll stick with my Treo, no matter how much I hate Windows Mobile, because I'm not going to buy 2 phones and 2 plans and somehow separate my work from my "digital lifestyle".

Apple is betting that consumers will suddenly want to pay a ton of money for a phone, the way the iPod made them suddenly want to spend a lot of money on an MP3 player. They don't seem to want the business market - this was probably a deliberate decision.

Too bad, because I really want one.

Apple doesn't need to support a company's proprietary method of retrieving and sending e-mails. The company needs to use what is the standard that everyone uses.

Geez... Why don't you just pay the 5 bucks extra or something per month to have your unlimited text messages.... It's not apple's fault.

Just because there is no iChat client now doesn't mean there will never be one. Take a chill pill guys. This phone boasts features that all work seamlessly in a revolutionary & slick interface. And besides- this is Apple's first phone. Give 'em a chance already, good lord!!!

They all need something to bitch about. Let them bitch. But you're totally right.

dAlen
Jan 12, 2007, 01:45 PM
Am I the only one who is really pissed off that you CANNOT add songs from iTunes as ringtones? This is the kind of industry ********* that I can't stand, and the kind of thing that Apple, with its "just makes sense" technology, shouldn't be endorsing. I don't care if they needed a partner, it's just money-grubbing ridiculousness at its finest.

Other ridiculousness: No Instant Messaging support outside of the pay-for-each-outgoing-AND-INCOMING-SMS -- again, ridiculous. Other countries don't pay for incoming messages and you shouldn't have to! If Apple is looking to revolutionize the phone, then you have to revolutionize the service and knock down these patently ludicrous barricades that they have set up just so they can make a buck.

No your not the only one. Others, including myself, have posted here (i have blogged about it), that it is silly that you cannot:

- download songs from the itunes store through your apple ipod/iphone
- use your songs as ringtones to customize the tunes for people in your contact list...helps to identify whose calling, and I say have a no tone (heheh...) for those you people not on your contact list.

But what am I saying, I live in Hungary...heck, I cant even buy anything from iTunes, despite the fact I live in Europe and the country is in the E.U.

Oh well,

peace

dAlen

Hombre
Jan 12, 2007, 01:58 PM
You pre-order the iPhone, without contract and SIM card and unlocked, at Amazon in Germany for 899 Euro and 999 Euro (4 GB and 8 GB model):
http://www.amazon.de/Apple-iPhone-8GB-Handy/dp/B0002W4P0C/sr=8-2/qid=1168614420/ref=sr_1_2/303-3866785-0845002?ie=UTF8&s=ce-de

http://www.amazon.de/Apple-IPhone-4GB-iPhone-Handy/dp/B0002W4OVW/sr=1-1/qid=1168614915/ref=sr_1_1/303-3866785-0845002?ie=UTF8&s=ce-de

And the 8GB model is already the top seller in electronics! :-o

http://www.amazon.de/gp/bestsellers/ce-de

david foster
Jan 12, 2007, 02:02 PM
I just upgraded my company phone from a Treo to a Samsung Blackjack. It also works through Cingular's network.

It is 3G capable (and accesses it from my office).
It is fully Outlook/Exchange capable (using Goodlink technology). I receive all email, access contacts, to-do and schedule info just like I can from my office desktop. I can open Word and Excel document attachments.
The battery can be changed out (and it came with a spare battery and a charger to charge the spare battery).
It has a camera. Speakerphone. Vibration alert. Internet access. Music and video. It reads micromini SD cards (I just ordered a 1GB card online for $18).
The color screen is bright and sharp, very high resolution (2.5").
It has real keys. A dial on the side to scroll through menus and screens.

From a business perspective the proto-iPhone doesn't even come close. On top of everything else, my business bought it for about a third of the cost of the iPhone. The best part: you can have a BlackJack right now; I've got one in my hand. It is 1 cm thick, 6 cm wide and 11 cm long. You can put it in your pocket and just about forget it's there. And the sound fidelity of calls on it is awesome (WAYYY better than the Treo). Most people refuse to believe my calls are cellular (even when I am using the speakerphone!).

I love Macs and the iPhone is "lickabily" cool. But it isn't a business phone. So who will buy it? Or who can afford to? The realities of the world at large: most businesses use Outlook and Microsoft Exchange for email and group scheduling. Most people send Word and Excel attachments. I wish it was different, but M$ won and Apple will do best when it integrates with these realities. Look how successful iPod became when it became compatible with Windows and shed Firewire (superior, no question) for USB.

Best solution for me now is my 8 GB ipod nano and the Blackjack phone in two separate pockets. If you want or need the best solution right now (and probably in June 07), these make an awesome combo.

fastdrive
Jan 12, 2007, 02:06 PM
I have listened to the Keynote a few times and nowhere did I hear Steve Jobs say that the Iphone is Apples new business oriented phone.

I can't find any reference on the apple iphone site that states it's a business phone.

There is a difference between a consumer oriented smart phone and a business oriented smart phone.

drewpage
Jan 12, 2007, 02:07 PM
I think everyone is missing the point of the iPhone. First and foremost, its a cell phone and an iPod. It can't be everything to everyone. Apple is not billing it as a business tool, so quit saying "why can't it open Word or Excel" or "why can't it sync with Outlook". The is a consumer level phone people!! Apple is not going to market it to the business traveler! No companies will run out and buy it for their employees!!

I would think this would be obvious from the feature set, but many complainers miss this basic fact.

mazola
Jan 12, 2007, 02:12 PM
... will it be Leopard? If it's true it runs a variant of Leopard, will it include 'Time Machine'?

If that's true, will you able to call the future?

Now THAT would be a killer app!

AndyR
Jan 12, 2007, 02:13 PM
If your stuck with crappy standard ringtones and can't use iTunes songs/mp3 etc like nearly every other phone out there.....I won't get getting one. Small thing but important.

Stella
Jan 12, 2007, 02:21 PM
Then SJ shouldn't have called it a smartphone and compared it against the likes of the Symbian, Palm, Microsoft, Blackberry smartphones.

Its misleading. It gives the impression that the iPhone will compete against these devices, when, it really does not.

( A lot of ) People know what smartphone means - its more business orientated and more flexible than a regular phone. This isn't the iPhone.

I think everyone is missing the point of the iPhone. First and foremost, its a cell phone and an iPod. It can't be everything to everyone. Apple is not billing it as a business tool, so quit saying "why can't it open Word or Excel" or "why can't it sync with Outlook". The is a consumer level phone people!! Apple is not going to market it to the business traveler! No companies will run out and buy it for their employees!!

I would think this would be obvious from the feature set, but many complainers miss this basic fact.

iJon
Jan 12, 2007, 02:27 PM
Hmm, each day goes by and I'm less interested in an iPhone. Last time I checked OS X was an operating system I could do whatever I wanted with. Too bad the phone doesn't follow suit.

/loves his SE phone.

jon

iMeowbot
Jan 12, 2007, 02:27 PM
Who pays $600 for a cell phone besides business users who are going to require Outlook integration?
That's one of the interesting tidbits about this phone, it really doesn't look like it's been aimed at business users. Apparently Apple decided to carve out a different territory that most phone makers have largely ignored.

WestonHarvey1
Jan 12, 2007, 02:27 PM
Apple doesn't need to support a company's proprietary method of retrieving and sending e-mails. The company needs to use what is the standard that everyone uses.


Oh, I'm sorry, I said Exchange, right? Yes - Microsoft's proprietary method of retrieving and sending e-mails. And it's the standard that everyone uses. And Apple doesn't need to support it? Okay.

fastdrive
Jan 12, 2007, 02:31 PM
From the keynote what Steve kept emphasizing is :

An iPod, a phone, an internet mobile communicator. An iPod, a phone, an internet mobile communicator.... these are NOT three separate devices!


In regards to being a smartphone it would meet this criteria by the following comment:

Why would we want to run such a sophisticated OS on a mobile device? It's got everything we need. Mulittasking, networking, power management, graphics, security, video, graphics, audio core animation

seashellz2
Jan 12, 2007, 02:31 PM
What I want to know is-Steve had Beatles music playing either on the phone or on a backdrop.

Isnt that hitting us over the head about who the Beatles will be signing with?
(without Steve coming right out and saying it?)

Bosunsfate
Jan 12, 2007, 02:33 PM
I swear if I didn't know any better I'd think this was a windoze fan-boy site. You guys are freakin harder on Apple than the M$ boys are! Simmer down - as steve said in the keynote it grabs everything from PCs as well as Macs so I'm thinking no outlook support claimed is likely bogus or hasn't been implemented yet. Flash/Java - that's just crap - no worry, it'll be there. No 3rd party software - that's also crap - as one poster pointed out in another thread Steve actually mentioned the 3rd party people VERBATIM when talking about the reasons for putting OS X on this thing.

I think it has to sync up through iTunes so iTunes can know where all your music is and keep the DRM in check. It's hilarious that you guys are all blaming Apple for this. Lest we not forget the RIAA said we aren't even allowed to have mp3 copies of our own CD's! We wouldn't even have the ability to put it on more than 1 device had Apple not pushed the music industry so hard. That and I have yet to run into any DRM problem - granted I don't own 6 iPods and 6 computers but the way some of you guys talk you MUST have at least this many right????


I totally agree.

Overall no complaints from me. Its a first generation product with a huge future. I'll just laugh all the way to the bank as my Apple stock keeps rising....

DavidLeblond
Jan 12, 2007, 02:34 PM
My mouth dropped open when I read that it doesn't support voice recognition. Huh? My POS LG Verizon phone can even do THAT. To me this is sounding like a Widescreen iPod that you could call people on if your real cell phone just so happens to get run over by a car.

biturbomunkie
Jan 12, 2007, 02:45 PM
the big deal about cingular?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/06/21/BUG9VJHB9C1.DTL&type=business

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cingular#Controversy

better customer service? many switched from cingular to t-mo on hofo.


What's the big deal about Cingular??? SERIOUSLY. I have used Verizon for years and switched to Cingular. The customer service is far better, with improvements in 3G (HSDPA) technology, download rates are on par with Verizon's, and they don't screw over their customers by locking features on phones other providers offer (i.e. Verizon's disabling Bluetooth OBEX to force customers to pay for downloading ringtones and pictures). CDMA limits use to North America only; it's dated and ineffecient. Why does everyone defend Verizon? The company is horrible. More over, would Steve Job's pick a bad cell phone carrier to launch a product his career might be staked on? Apple, Inc.'s choice to use Cingular will open many peoples' eyes to the reality that Verizon is NOT the only choice in excellent mobile service.

Hopefully these issues will be resolved either before June’s launch or within the year, otherwise I won’t be buying any time soon (especially for $599)

stcanard
Jan 12, 2007, 02:48 PM
Last time I checked OS X was an operating system I could do whatever I wanted with. Too bad the phone doesn't follow suit.

Last time I checked OSX was XNU kernel + libc.

Everything else is value add for the Macintosh platform.

Now I agree with you that I would like to see more freedom, but lets keep these definitions, straight, please! Apple is not lying or even stretching the truth by claiming this thing runs a full OSX. It _does_ run a full OSX. It just appears that many people have a misunderstanding about what an operating system is.


better customer service? you'll find many switched from cingular to t-mo on hofo.

But HOFO is just one big place to complain about your carrier, and if you work for a carrier, complain about everyone else's service.

Using that as a source for recommendations on carriers would be ridiculous.

impierced
Jan 12, 2007, 02:52 PM
[QUOTE=Warbrain;3244210]Apple doesn't need to support a company's proprietary method of retrieving and sending e-mails. The company needs to use what is the standard that everyone uses.

AHHAHAHAHAH!!!

Sorry, I meant...

AHAHAHAHHAH!!!

Wait! You were serious?

Apple's largest hurdle for acceptance in corporate america is the lack of true Exchange connectivity. MS dropped the ball on it - Entourage is junk when compared to a true Exchange client such as Outlook - I use both.

Let me just summarize by saying when it comes to a very expensive cell phone that will really be marketed at those who buy the Blackberry and Treos which BOTH have Exchange connectivity - for Apple not to have it IS a huge oversight. Come on, even the Treo 650/680 with Palm OS (did I mention it's fricken Palm OS) has syncronization for contact, calendar, and email for Exchange.

impierced
Jan 12, 2007, 02:54 PM
That's one of the interesting tidbits about this phone, it really doesn't look like it's been aimed at business users. Apparently Apple decided to carve out a different territory that most phone makers have largely ignored.

You mean the teenagers making $50k a year? Yeah, that's a huge market! :eek: :eek: :eek:

biturbomunkie
Jan 12, 2007, 03:06 PM
not being harsh, just being real. the iphone may look sleek w/ an awesome UI, but the specs are dated - no flash, no GPS, no 3G, a 2.0mp camera? when the phone is released, it'll be even more dated then now.

give me at least flash + GPS and minus cingular, i'll be happily giving $800 to apple inc.

I swear if I didn't know any better I'd think this was a windoze fan-boy site. You guys are freakin harder on Apple than the M$ boys are! Simmer down - as steve said in the keynote it grabs everything from PCs as well as Macs so I'm thinking no outlook support claimed is likely bogus or hasn't been implemented yet. Flash/Java - that's just crap - no worry, it'll be there. No 3rd party software - that's also crap - as one poster pointed out in another thread Steve actually mentioned the 3rd party people VERBATIM when talking about the reasons for putting OS X on this thing.

danielwsmithee
Jan 12, 2007, 03:10 PM
You mean the teenagers making $50k a year? Yeah, that's a huge market! :eek: :eek: :eek:I think you will see these sell like crazy at first then fizzle out and die as people realize that it can not do that things they need it to. The type of people it could attract are for example entrepreneurs, real-estate companies, people who can afford the $80 a month data contract and are not tied to a corporate environment (Exchange & Office). I could see it being really useful for a real estate agent.

iMeowbot
Jan 12, 2007, 03:13 PM
You mean the teenagers making $50k a year? Yeah, that's a huge market! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Nah, everyone does phones for kids, and phones for suits. This thing is for a whole different bunch of people, the ones who hate mobile phones.

biturbomunkie
Jan 12, 2007, 03:15 PM
on hofo, there are complaints and there are compliments. much like MR, there are fan boys but there also people that give out helpful advices.

locking into a carrier for 2 years and paying $500+ without reading up on hofo would be ridiculous. :D


But HOFO is just one big place to complain about your carrier, and if you work for a carrier, complain about everyone else's service.

Using that as a source for recommendations on carriers would be ridiculous.

Grakkle
Jan 12, 2007, 03:25 PM
And as far as Cingular goes, they may not be the best carrier, but at least Apple didn't settle with a CDMA carrier and piss off all the Euros. Or allow any other carrier to compromise their UI extensively. And also to Cingluar's credit, they basically bent over and took it from Apple, developing random access voicemail and not even seeing a prototype until extremely recently and not compromising the UI or crippling functionality. Either way, this phone should be on T-Mobile within 12-18 months, max. And by then they should already have a Rev B that improves on everything. The exclusive deal was for iPhone, not for 2G iPhone.


Yeah, GSM is is a lot better. But some of us like to buy unlocked phones and use them with the SIM card from whatever carrier, or swap cards as needed.

Especially for travel, it's usually cheaper to buy a SIM card for whatever country you're traveling in and buy prepaid service than to pay Cingular or T-Mobile for roaming charges.

So even if T-Mobile gets the iPhone I still won't be happy till you can buy it unlocked.

iJon
Jan 12, 2007, 03:42 PM
Last time I checked OSX was XNU kernel + libc.

Everything else is value add for the Macintosh platform.

Now I agree with you that I would like to see more freedom, but lets keep these definitions, straight, please! Apple is not lying or even stretching the truth by claiming this thing runs a full OSX. It _does_ run a full OSX. It just appears that many people have a misunderstanding about what an operating system is.
Yes I know this but I am speaking on more common terms. When Steve said OS X I had grand envisions of using it somewhat like a computer where people can develop apps for the phone. Now all I see is a pretty phone that does some cool shiznit but also can't do some things that my 3 year old Sony Ericsson can do.

But who knows, Apple can change many things in the future. If they are touting this thing as the same category as the iPod then we know there isn't going to be many applications. Apple themselves even left out their Mac faithful gaming developers out of the loop for the iPod games.

jon

peharri
Jan 12, 2007, 03:47 PM
Yeah, GSM is is a lot better. But some of us like to buy unlocked phones and use them with the SIM card from whatever carrier, or swap cards as needed.

Especially for travel, it's usually cheaper to buy a SIM card for whatever country you're traveling in and buy prepaid service than to pay Cingular or T-Mobile for roaming charges.

So even if T-Mobile gets the iPhone I still won't be happy till you can buy it unlocked.

Hear hear. And not "Unlocked via some dubious third party process on the web" either, I want to see "iPhone for Cingular, iPhone for T-Mobile, iPhone (Unlocked)" as three entries on Amazon.com (or miss out one or both of the first two in that list.)

This is something people are expecting to pay hundreds of dollars - thousands if you include the contract - for, that will become a very personal part of you, and nobody cares if it's locked to a particular carrier?

I, personally, spend the extra to get phones that are unlocked. I may be in the minority there, but we're not talking about cheap throwaway phones here, it's something for keeps.

BTW to all the people who keep saying "I don't see why everyone's complaining about Cingular", we're complaining that it's locked to Cingular. And yes, I know some people are moaning that it's not available for Verizon - well, that's Verizon's fault for running an enhanced version of AMPS rather than a modern GSM/UMTS network. But ignore them, Verizon is not the only "other network" we want to be able to run this phone on, and Cingular is hardly perfect.

Anuba
Jan 12, 2007, 03:49 PM
Wait... time out...

"Meanwhile Jobs admits that he wants to control every cough and spit that ends up on the iPhone. This includes things like ringtones."

No custom ring tones? :eek:

Idiots! I HATE sound-branding. Steve wants you to do free advertising for the damn thing, just like Allchin at Microsoft made the Vista startup sound impossible to replace. Who the hell wants a factory default ringtone these days?

biturbomunkie
Jan 12, 2007, 03:57 PM
A++ :)


This is something people are expecting to pay hundreds of dollars - thousands if you include the contract - for, that will become a very personal part of you, and nobody cares if it's locked to a particular carrier?

I, personally, spend the extra to get phones that are unlocked. I may be in the minority there, but we're not talking about cheap throwaway phones here, it's something for keeps.

BTW to all the people who keep saying "I don't see why everyone's complaining about Cingular", we're complaining that it's locked to Cingular. And yes, I know some people are moaning that it's not available for Verizon - well, that's Verizon's fault for running an enhanced version of AMPS rather than a modern GSM/UMTS network. But ignore them, Verizon is not the only "other network" we want to be able to run this phone on, and Cingular is hardly perfect.

TheBobcat
Jan 12, 2007, 04:01 PM
Yeah, GSM is is a lot better. But some of us like to buy unlocked phones and use them with the SIM card from whatever carrier, or swap cards as needed.

Especially for travel, it's usually cheaper to buy a SIM card for whatever country you're traveling in and buy prepaid service than to pay Cingular or T-Mobile for roaming charges.

So even if T-Mobile gets the iPhone I still won't be happy till you can buy it unlocked.

I'm not disagreeing, but if Apple didn't have Cingular to subsidize the cost, which is STILL pretty high, people would reject iPhone en masse at the pure thought of paying $900-$1000 for a phone/iPod. Apple can't sell it at a loss, so what's the only solution, to get the price down to where at least some Americans will pay? A partnership. With who? Well, you have T-Mobile and Cingular as the main GSM carriers.

Apple got lucky that Cingluar would subsidize them without crippling the phone and blasting its logos all over (as far as we know, either way it has more than most other phones in terms of freedom). The only Cingular thing I even saw on it was the name next to the bars, which should reflect what network it's on anyway.

All that Cingluar asks in return is exclusivity (for now) and a 2-year contract with them when you purchase. After exclusivity is over, I'm sure Apple will just sell the phone unlocked through its stores like it will do in Europe. At launch in the US, I don't think a significant number of American consumers care enough to have an unlocked phone to make it a big issue and sacrifice the deal with Cingluar.

As I stated in my earlier post, given what most carriers do to their phones in the US in terms of crippling (Verizon being the worst), Apple got really lucky that Cingular is subsidizing for practically nothing except the contract.

CJD2112
Jan 12, 2007, 04:10 PM
the big deal about cingular?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/06/21/BUG9VJHB9C1.DTL&type=business

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cingular#Controversy

better customer service? many switched from cingular to t-mo on hofo.

I addressed this already. See my previous posts. There is A LOT more on Verizon. More over, Cingular has IMPROVED, with a 56% improvement in customer service since 1st quarter last year. Keep in mind, Cingular is a company that recently acquired AT&T and Voicestream, thus making it the largest mobile carrier in the U.S. C'mon guys, enough with the freakin' hate, Verizon isn't the only good company in the U.S. Read about the NUMEROUS lawsuits on Bluetooth OBEX crippling, misleading billing tactics and advertisin Verizon Wireless is dealing with. Given time, Cingular will prove itself better and more reliable than Verizon. As Steve Jobs always says, "it's not where it's been, it's where it's going that is crucial".

Lynxpoint
Jan 12, 2007, 04:12 PM
Wait... time out...

"Meanwhile Jobs admits that he wants to control every cough and spit that ends up on the iPhone. This includes things like ringtones."

No custom ring tones? :eek:

Idiots! I HATE sound-branding. Steve wants you to do free advertising for the damn thing, just like Allchin at Microsoft made the Vista startup sound impossible to replace. Who the hell wants a factory default ringtone these days?

its all about the money:

"When presented with the concept of allowing iPhone owners to take a song from their iTunes music library and turn it into a ring tone, however, Jobs said it could be done but implied through a simple hand gesture that the move would cost Apple a fairly large sum of money."
from: http://www.macnn.com/articles/07/01/12/jobs.on.iphone.platform/

WestonHarvey1
Jan 12, 2007, 04:33 PM
Nah, everyone does phones for kids, and phones for suits. This thing is for a whole different bunch of people, the ones who hate mobile phones.

I'm a suit, and I hate mobile phones. Thanks to no Exchange support, I guess I'll get to keep on hating them.

biturbomunkie
Jan 12, 2007, 04:54 PM
i.) the sf gate article discusses att privacy policy. i'm sure you have read it (it's about your data belongs to att/cingular). maybe you have addressed it, but i just kinda skipped your posts when you mentioned that att isn't cingular or vice versa. i apologize if you have already addressed cingular's privacy policy.

ii.) i'm sure you are also aware that cingular and verizon are not the only two carriers in the U.S.

I addressed this already. See my previous posts. There is A LOT more on Verizon.

i.) i don't understand, and can't agree with the logic behind a bigger corp = better for consumers.

ii.) how did cingular start? remember ma bell? what happened to the old att? will the new att be any different?

More over, Cingular has IMPROVED, with a 56% improvement in customer service since 1st quarter last year. Keep in mind, Cingular is a company that recently acquired AT&T and Voicestream, thus making it the largest mobile carrier in the U.S. C'mon guys, enough with the freakin' hate, Verizon isn't the only good company in the U.S. Read about the NUMEROUS lawsuits on Bluetooth OBEX crippling, misleading billing tactics and advertisin Verizon Wireless is dealing with. Given time, Cingular will prove itself better and more reliable than Verizon.

where it's goin isn't really that crucial. what's critical is that, when you are using such a personal device, where do these companies want you to go? kinda like one of those microshaft jokes, "where do we want you to go today?"

As Steve Jobs always says, "it's not where it's been, it's where it's going that is crucial".

back on the iphone - ditch cingular, add flash+GPS, apple can have my $800. :D

impierced
Jan 12, 2007, 04:58 PM
Nah, everyone does phones for kids, and phones for suits. This thing is for a whole different bunch of people, the ones who hate mobile phones.

While it's called an iPhone and that signifies it's to be put in the "phone" category - it's really more along the line of a PDA. I can't remember the last time I saw a kid with a Treo or Blackberry.

While I'm sure kids with money burning a hole in their pockets (or more correctly thier parent's pockets) will purchase the iPhone, I'm doubfult they'll be the majority of consumers purchasing it.

The bulk of people purchasing it - whether for leisure or work, will still want to use the device for both. Let's face it, the majority of businesses out there use Exchange for email.

Lack of Exchange connectivity for Apple (both on the workstation and now with the cell phone) is an issue and one that Apple has always been unwilling to address.

Gurutech
Jan 12, 2007, 05:06 PM
Consumbers buying 499 with 2yr contract ipod+phone+internet device?

:rolleyes:

considering that I can get 4 Gig ipod + Razor from better wireless service for 250?

well. I may pay extra 250 for PDA like capability. But if this crippled iphone story happened to be true in June, well.. lol
Apple must provide PDA like capabilities that other PDA+smartphones have already plus some extra (UI is enough for me in this case. but it needs to be 3rd Party application friendly)
Aiming consumer market with such price, regardless of how cheap it is compared to other smart phones, sounds way too optimistic.

Aiming consumer smartphone user market plus some of cooperate market, at least to me, may be more beneficial to Apple than aiming at small sector of consumer market in which people are willing to pay 499 for gadget toys.


plus, this phone must have user replaceable battery. This is not just a phone.
People will listen music, browse photos and internets, and etc.
They also will use this as phone.
Considering all that, bettery life is way crippled.

One device with half the battery life using two features
vs
two devices with its own battery

Doctor Q
Jan 12, 2007, 05:09 PM
Was it ever confirmed, or demonstrated, that the iPhone Mail.app display will change between portrait and landscape when you rotate the phone?

I find that a wide window is better than a tall window for reading text in emails, so I hope the answer is yes.

SiliconAddict
Jan 12, 2007, 05:19 PM
The iPhone is now officially dead to me without Outlook syncing. Yes someone will create a 3rd party conduit but that's just that much more on top of the device's already hefty price. Then non-Cingular version for 2 years, Gah Apple... Its a useless closed ecosystem. :rolleyes:

biturbomunkie
Jan 12, 2007, 05:19 PM
most of the cool kids i know have PDA-like phones - lots of treos and SK III, some symbians, a few WinMobs and one blackberry.

but then, cool kids aren't the majority... :D

While it's called an iPhone and that signifies it's to be put in the "phone" category - it's really more along the line of a PDA. I can't remember the last time I saw a kid with a Treo or Blackberry.

While I'm sure kids with money burning a hole in their pockets (or more correctly thier parent's pockets) will purchase the iPhone, I'm doubfult they'll be the majority of consumers purchasing it.

The bulk of people purchasing it - whether for leisure or work, will still want to use the device for both. Let's face it, the majority of businesses out there use Exchange for email.

Lack of Exchange connectivity for Apple (both on the workstation and now with the cell phone) is an issue and one that Apple has always been unwilling to address.

zac4mac
Jan 12, 2007, 05:34 PM
I'm pretty excited about this phone, have been since the announcement.
Looks like a RevC or D functional prototype to me though.
Five months to actual release, I hope Apple fixes a few egregious errors :

1) replaceable batteries is a must - I have two for my T-637
2) .doc, .xls and .jpg support are a must have
3) full sync with .mac over BT/USB, Outlook w/USB is close to a must have
4) Either open the platform to 3rd party developers, or set up a very proactive group to help with certifying 3rd party apps - so they still control the user experience

fingers crossed -

Z

alec
Jan 12, 2007, 05:39 PM
the real question is will this play very obscene pornography in very public places?

Cinch
Jan 12, 2007, 05:39 PM
The bulk of people purchasing it - whether for leisure or work, will still want to use the device for both. Let's face it, the majority of businesses out there use Exchange for email.

Lack of Exchange connectivity for Apple (both on the workstation and now with the cell phone) is an issue and one that Apple has always been unwilling to address.

I think we can get around this. Web Exchange version using Safari? It may not be practical though.

Cinch

dethl
Jan 12, 2007, 06:03 PM
As much as I love Apple and its products this is one I won't ever get. Had there been support for 3rd party apps (like Palm/etc..) I would be looking into ways to drop my Sprint account.

Whistleway
Jan 12, 2007, 06:09 PM
I've been a quiet but devoted mac user since the days of the Classic but looking at the front page today... all but one post about a freaking mobile phone.

That's it for me I'm afraid, Apple is all about expensive aspirational life style products now for people with too much money, no sense, and little interest in real innovation. I already have a phone. iTV is near useless outside of the US.

While we're at it, the computers are technically the same as current generation pcs now other than being hobbled by Apples proprietry interests, so while you guys get excited about each 0.2GHz speedbump in processor speed, the enthusiast pc community are already overclocking their Core2Duos well beyond 3GHZ in stock configuration.

There is increasingly less to choose between OSX and Linux save a few brushed metal dialogue boxes as an alternative to windows.

For the first time in 15 years I have zero interest in replacing my current mac (a 12" powerbook) when it dies.

great pos6 !!

Nicky G
Jan 12, 2007, 06:14 PM
Japan far ahead of iPhone
Toronto Star

Cellphones there used for everything from buying milk to booking a train
January 12, 2007
Bruce Wallace
SPECIAL TO THE STAR
TOKYO–Tomoaki Kurita presides over racks of cellphones lined up outside his shop on a busy sidewalk in Harajuku, Tokyo's catwalk of youth street culture where people attracted by the riot of phone options can stop to flip open and fondle the latest models of what the Japanese call a "keitai."

This is a seriously misinformed article:

In the US for the last couple of years, it strikes me our cellphones have largely caught up with the ones in Europe and Japan. Sure, we still don't use phones for making purchases from vending machines or at the checkout line, but we do use GPS on them, surf the internet, email, etc. We also have 3G via Sprint (primarily, with EV-DO) and Cingular. 4G WiMax rolls out from Sprint in early '08.

The article is simply wrong in stating that iPhone is 2G. It is at least 2.5G with its EDGE support, and as it's probably able to take advantage of the latest EDGE implementations, it's really technically probably 2.75G. Now, I wish it was true 3G, but that is OBVIOUSLY coming, as will 4G and beyond.

All of these fancy cool high-tech things in some ways miss the whole point of the iPhone. This is in some ways a new paradigm for portable computing -- Multitouch is a much bigger deal than I think most people realize (read the patents).

No, the point of the iPhone is that the interface works like IT SHOULD. This is not a cellphone you will have to battle to do basic things, like merge calls into a conference, or check your voicemail in any darn order you want to. For the things that 95% of all cellphone users do with their phones, iPhone will rule.

I think it's also obvious that at some point, Apple will open up iPhone _or something similar_ to developers as a whole new mobile computing platform. But they want to make sure to do that on their own terms. They will probably say they won't do it right up until they say they're doing it.

What is the appeal of iPhone? On paper, not a whole lot. But geez, take a freaking look at it in action. I'm sure in person, under our fingers, it will be a million times cooler still. The thing looks like it came through a time portal from the year 2020, looks just like a future-PDA that some cool cyberpunk anime series like Ergo Proxy might feature (neat fact -- Ergo Proxy even shows a multitouch user interface in action). There is no freaking way I won't buy one of these as soon as they come out. Now I'm a geeky, fairly successful guy who straddles Gen X and Gen Y, probably totally the target market for iPhone. But I also work in business, and don't give a monkey's bottom that I won't be able to sync with Outlook or view .doc or .xls files. I use my laptop for that. The iPhone will be an outlet for my technolust, and to impress the clients. :)

Sam0r
Jan 12, 2007, 06:30 PM
Jesus christ, its just one let down after another with this thing.

I honestly can't see why ANYONE would want to buy this, other than for its looks.

No flash or java? Come on, my current phone has flash java, and its not even a smartphone.

With all these lack of simple features I really cant see it selling, especially with the stupidly high price tag.

Apple are seriously going down hill with this thing, and the AppleTV.

Thats my OPINION by the way, incase any of you forget.

stcanard
Jan 12, 2007, 06:35 PM
You know, I had this feeling this thread felt really, really familiar.

Then it hit me:

iPod Shuffle Announcement (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=104208&highlight=ipod+shuffle)

Oh, no, wait a minute, maybe I'm thinking of

The Macintel announcement (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=104208&highlight=ipod+shuffle)

amphi
Jan 12, 2007, 06:43 PM
Nah, everyone does phones for kids, and phones for suits. This thing is for a whole different bunch of people, the ones who hate mobile phones.

... and speaking as one of that demographic exactly what does the iPhone offer?

Granted it's vapour ware at the moment, but I'll keep the ipod and the junky candybar that gets perfectly good reception and withstands daily abuse and is almost free to replace if I lose it (again).

It's a beautiful bit of engineering/industrial design but it is not ipod revolutionary (which was really the iPod and iTunes - not just the iPod).

barnaby
Jan 12, 2007, 06:47 PM
With steve pushing the itunes integration for mac or windows so hard, i find it difficult to believe that it doesnt support the most popular email package that would be synced with this kind of device.. plus no java/flash? what "complete" browser doesnt have these? i think this story is bs personally

We've gone overnight from WAP browsers to a fully functional browser and we're complaining that it doesn't support Java and Flash? Do I have that right?
A browser on a phone is for convenience (look up a companies number or address). It's not going to replace browsing on a computer.

amphi
Jan 12, 2007, 06:49 PM
You know, I had this feeling this thread felt really, really familiar.

Then it hit me:

iPod Shuffle Announcement (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=104208&highlight=ipod+shuffle)

Oh, no, wait a minute, maybe I'm thinking of

The Macintel announcement (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=104208&highlight=ipod+shuffle)

.... but even those who couldn't see the point could see the function.

The problem with the iPhone is what exactly is the new function? It does look awfully like design refinement which is why the cube comparisons might be apt.

swingerofbirch
Jan 12, 2007, 06:55 PM
Let me start by saying I feel y'all's pain. I feel it too.

However, lest we not forget that when the original iMac was introduced the specs on it included a 33.6k modem. After much clamoring and by its final release, Apple included a 56k modem.

My point is this, if we keep complaining, Apple may change the shipping specs. The thing is still 5-6 months off.

EagerDragon
Jan 12, 2007, 06:57 PM
What you're forgetting is that these devices cost very little to produce. That's why they make kids work 18 hour days in China to make them.

Your figures don't stack up because of that.

The original argument is what it costs you to have that fucntionality with you.

Cost me nothing to get that, I already have an iPod 20 gig and I have a smartphone. To temp me to switch it has to come down in price some.

There is a difference between "I want it" and "I need it".

nFace
Jan 12, 2007, 07:33 PM
For European (Q4 2007) and especially for Asian (early 2008) customers iPhone is DOA. Think about it... GSM/EDGE phone as a modern smart phone :rolleyes: If you have ever downloaded mail attachments or any files with GSM/EDGE you know what I'm saying. Thats just painfully slow. Browsing web pages isn't pleasurable either. Modern smart phone needs to be at least 3G or better yet 3.5G. Old GSM/EDGE just won't cut it in real use.

In Q1 2007 Nokia (http://www.nokia.com/nseries/index.html?loc=inside,main_n95&amp;lang=en&amp;country=GB) will be releasing N95 which is 3.5G smart phone that is far ahead of iPhone regarding the features and specs (http://www.nseries.com/nseries/v2/media/product/tech_specs/en-GB/tech_specs_n95_en_GB.html?lang=en&country=GB) By the time iPhone arrives to Europe Nokia, SonyEricsson, Samsung, Moto etc. have released even better phones.

Anyway, I have to say I love iPhone's big screen and that lovely graphics chip and especially the design but thats far as it goes. iPod / phone combo would be great but I rather wait for that real wide screen video iPod that I can actually use without being afraid of running out of battery all the time.

BillyShears
Jan 12, 2007, 07:39 PM
... Granted it's vapour ware at the moment ...

Vaporware (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware): "Vaporware is software or hardware which is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge, either with or without a protracted development cycle. The term implies unwarranted optimism, or sometimes even deception; that is, it may imply that the announcer knows that product development is in too early a stage to support responsible statements about its completion date, feature set, or even feasibility."

There's no reason to suspect it won't come out as/when promised. It's been pre-announced, but that does not make it vaporware.

I see this mistake a lot with regard to iPhone.

manu chao
Jan 12, 2007, 07:55 PM
The problem with the iPhone is what exactly is the new function? It does look awfully like design refinement which is why the cube comparisons might be apt.

The iPhone is a widescreen iPod with phone capabilities and Internet access. As such it is a successor to the top-level iPod (in price, functionality and status, unfortunately not in storage capacity). Its main fault is its high price, followed by the storage capacity.

The original iPod did cost $400 and had only 5 GB memory. It sold well enough and technology progressed fast enough that Apple was able to first offer 5 GB, than 10 GB, than 20 GB and currently 30 GB at a price point of $300, which helped its sales for sure.

The iPhone might follow that model, or it might suffer from its high pricing like the original iPod photos did.

iJawn108
Jan 12, 2007, 08:07 PM
LG iPhone anyone? (http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2006/12/15/the-lg-ke850-touchable-chocolate/)

Even the the wallpaper looks aqua like. :/

suneohair
Jan 12, 2007, 08:08 PM
For European (Q4 2007) and especially for Asian (early 2008) customers iPhone is DOA. Think about it... GSM/EDGE phone as a modern smart phone :rolleyes: If you have ever downloaded mail attachments or any files with GSM/EDGE you know what I'm saying. Thats just painfully slow. Browsing web pages isn't pleasurable either. Modern smart phone needs to at least 3G or better yet 3.5G. Old GSM/EDGE just won't cut it in real use.

In Q1 2007 Nokia (http://www.nokia.com/nseries/index.html?loc=inside,main_n95&amp;lang=en&amp;country=GB) will be releasing N95 which is 3.5G smart phone that is far ahead of iPhone regarding the features and specs (http://www.nseries.com/nseries/v2/media/product/tech_specs/en-GB/tech_specs_n95_en_GB.html?lang=en&country=GB) By the time iPhone arrives to Europe Nokia, SonyEricsson, Samsung, Moto etc. have released even better phones.

Anyway, I have to say I love iPhone's big screen and that lovely graphics chip and especially the design but thats far as it goes. iPod / phone combo would be great but I rather wait for that real wide screen video iPod that I can actually use without being afraid of running out of battery all the time.

DId it ever occur to you that the staggered release is so they can get 3G into the thing?

I highly doubt Apple will launch this phone with EDGE in Europe and Asia. It is not gonna happen.

Same thing as far as phone features. Pushing the roadmap for those countries out to late 2007 and 2008 will allow Apple to release a phone in those markets that can actually compete and offer the same features with all their new enhancements and takes on the smartphone.

I highly doubt that Apple will release the current iPhone in Europe or Asia when that time comes. By that time, there will another rev of the iPhone. One worthy of being released in those markets.

That being said. Not only does the iPhones new interface, gorgeous display (can the n95 touch it? http://www.engadget.com/2006/09/26/nokias-n95-smartphone-goes-legit/), sexy seamless integration between the three main functions make me want it. But above all Mac compatibility. I have a Treo 650. I can barely get it to work with my Mac. It is a huge PIMA.

There are things I want the iPhone to have:

1: Strong developed support. EVen if under Apples watch. Everyone wants to say well what if Apple controlled the apps on your Mac? That is a weak argument. A Computer is such a general tool. It can do ANYTHING. You can't restrict the apps on it. The iPhone is a phone. Yes, it does other things but of course I want it to work as a PHONE first. My Treo 650 has crashed many times from adding applications. Even apps I have paid for that are reputable. The platforms are simply not stable. Sure not everyone experiences that, but I can understand where Apple is coming from here. Besides, Steve did not say "No apps will be produced", he simpy said Apple would offer apps and there may be apps from developers that are certified (or something like that). They will not let the support of developers slip through their hands.

I think making this a stable platform should be first most important part right now. Apps can come later.

2: 3G and WiFi. THis is important. EDGE is indeed slow. Peak performance is never met. With this phone offering rich media, it needs 3G. Also, it would seem that it needs better WiFi performance as well. I don't know what he was connected to in the Hall though. He said 3G will come. So it may be best to just wait. The reason here is that it adds to the bulk of the device. The Pearl is EDGE. Hence its size. The Q does have 1xEVDO but it is a CDMA dual band phone which would allow for a 3G antenna. It is slightly lager as well. The Treo 750 is a brick.

For me that is it. Replacement battery. Meh. Don't care. It isn't the end of the world for me. I don't carry extra batteries around. If my phone dies. It dies. But carrying an iPod cable around isnt too hard. When the battery needs to be replaced I will stroll into an Apple repair shop and get it done. No need to send it off.

What it comes down to is this: If it doesnt do what you need it to do right now, don't buy it. Things may be a lot different in June. I say people start writing and strongly voicing these issues. That is the only way to get them to add those features (which wouldnt be hard) before launch. But who knows what they are working on and what they didnt show us. June gave them a lot of room to work with. Maybe even to get some feedback (despite the whole FCC thing) to see what they can jam in.

Lets just wait it out folks. They have til June. If then it doesnt have what you want. Wait til the next rev.

I may wait. As my sprint contract isnt up until March 08. By then there should be a snazzy iPhone out.

quigleybc
Jan 12, 2007, 08:13 PM
most of the cool kids i know have PDA-like phones - lots of treos and SK III, some symbians, a few WinMobs and one blackberry.

but then, cool kids aren't the majority... :D



I wish I was a cool kid :(

What it comes down to is this: If it doesnt do what you need it to do right now, don't buy it. Things may be a lot different in June. I say people start writing and strongly voicing these issues. That is the only way to get them to add those features (which wouldnt be hard) before launch. But who knows what they are working on and what they didnt show us. June gave them a lot of room to work with. Maybe even to get some feedback (despite the whole FCC thing) to see what they can jam in.

Lets just wait it out folks. They have til June. If then it doesnt have what you want. Wait til the next rev.

I may wait. As my sprint contract isnt up until March 08. By then there should be a snazzy iPhone out.


Great post, I totally agree. It's not out yet, let's wait and see how it ends up. Plus living in Canada, I'll get to see how all the folks in the USA like it, cuz it'll take longer to reach us up here.

post-prof
Jan 12, 2007, 08:17 PM
The iphone rocks - It is by far the best portable and most powerful device ever made.

There are no decent devices in the market where you can listen to music and view coplicated PDF files at the same time (lack of power perhaps, I don't know) and I don't want to give $1000+for a portable handheld pc....:mad:

I am a European and I will just wait for the phone to be available in my country! It is the best portable device (ipod+video+phone+internet and pdf viewer). FYI, I already own a SE P900 with excel an word support. I have never really used them since the SE P900 screen is too small for spreadsheets and as for word docs is concerned you can easily convert them them into PDF format.

I think the iphone will be exactly what I need for my communication and entertainment needs. Great work apple!

suneohair
Jan 12, 2007, 08:22 PM
The iphone rocks - It is by far the best portable and most powerful device ever made.

There are no decent devices in the market where you can listen to music and view coplicated PDF files at the same time (lack of power perhaps, I don't know) and I don't want to give $1000+for a portable handheld pc....:mad:

I am a European and I will just wait for the phone to be available in my country! It is the best portable device (ipod+video+phone+internet and pdf viewer). FYI, I already own a SE P900 with excel an word support. I have never really used them since the SE P900 screen is too small for spreadsheets and as for word docs is concerned you can easily convert them them into PDF format.

I think the iphone will be exactly what I need for my communication and entertainment needs. Great work apple!

Good post. A lot of the complaining about missing features is just because they aren't there. Not because they need them. Don't get me wrong I know people do. But I for one have never used my Treo to open docs. PDFs would be a joke, but I haven't used the documents feature.

Does it bug me that the iPhone doesn't have it? Yes. Why? Because I want a device to have every possible option and I am a geek. I like specs. Will the iPhone do it? Probably.

This poster is right on point. For HIM the device does what he needs it to do. It isnt for everyone. Just like the Blackberry, Q, and Treo. If one phone was for everyone we would all have the same thing.

Besides, the fact that most people are taking the time to whine about it probably means they want it.

gwangung
Jan 12, 2007, 08:26 PM
.... but even those who couldn't see the point could see the function.


No, they couldn't--they were being even more myopic that the folks on this thread were.

Though I have to say they probably had better reading comprehension...(I mean, people are whining about "no third party apps"--STEVE DIDN'T SAY THAT. People are whining about no 3G--STEVE SAID 3G IS COMING).

post-prof
Jan 12, 2007, 08:36 PM
No, they couldn't--they were being even more myopic that the folks on this thread were.

Though I have to say they probably had better reading comprehension...(I mean, people are whining about "no third party apps"--STEVE DIDN'T SAY THAT. People are whining about no 3G--STEVE SAID 3G IS COMING).

I totally agree! People don't listen.

However, for me, 3G absence in v1 of the iphone is not a big deal. 3G is too expensive. I prefer WIFI and WIFI is available now.... :)

kruzader
Jan 12, 2007, 08:44 PM
Apple takes on being one of the most innovative companies of our time. Putting new technologies in common sense for our chaotic-tech life style.

Loyal to their software, but their hardware...not that much hardware, I will wait once the bugs are out, new and cooler features go in, and other phone carriers get this model.

QUESTIONS: They announce they will hit Europe in 3rd or 4th quarter and Asia in 2008...so why Cingular? Doesn't T-Mobile have more of a global market? I'll say about 4 out of every 10 friends have Verizon, 5 T-mobile, sprint or nextel..and then one weird one with Cingular?

When you buy a phone do you consider its features or the service? Do you buy a fancy car that runs at times or a decent car that always gets you places when you want?

I hope this is not a Bad Apple. IF it is, it will atleast open the eyes of phone companies. Look at the ROKR big LEMON, but heck some one took that idea and came out with a CHOCOLATE...now how sweet is that for consumers.

amphi
Jan 12, 2007, 08:44 PM
Vaporware (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware): "Vaporware is software or hardware which is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge, either with or without a protracted development cycle. The term implies unwarranted optimism, or sometimes even deception; that is, it may imply that the announcer knows that product development is in too early a stage to support responsible statements about its completion date, feature set, or even feasibility."

There's no reason to suspect it won't come out as/when promised. It's been pre-announced, but that does not make it vaporware.

I see this mistake a lot with regard to iPhone.

Indeed but any discussion of 'what may actually ship' is a discussion about vapourware. So while I have no doubt it will ship there is a substantial vapour ware aspect to all the heated debate.

So no I didn't make a mistake in my usage :cool:

kruzader
Jan 12, 2007, 08:52 PM
Good post. A lot of the complaining about missing features is just because they aren't there. Not because they need them. Don't get me wrong I know people do. But I for one have never used my Treo to open docs. PDFs would be a joke, but I haven't used the documents feature.

Does it bug me that the iPhone doesn't have it? Yes. Why? Because I want a device to have every possible option and I am a geek. I like specs. Will the iPhone do it? Probably.

This poster is right on point. For HIM the device does what he needs it to do. It isnt for everyone. Just like the Blackberry, Q, and Treo. If one phone was for everyone we would all have the same thing.

Besides, the fact that most people are taking the time to whine about it probably means they want it.

To be honest, since this device is essentially going to be a lifestyle PDA, and since devs are already on it, I'd imagine it wouldn't be long before something like an open office or Entourage in stripped form gets released on the device. I think the Flash/Java support is false, especially since the safari on the iPhone is said to be a 'full HTML desktop class application' I refuse to believe that these won't be supported on official release.

DUring the keynote when he zooms into the NY times page on the lower left corner there is a plugging missing? I'm sure it was a splash or Java plugin. Why will NY times take the risk to deliver information and make users go through the trouble of getting a special pluggin? On the web come on, i dont find it in 2 seconds... click.

amphi
Jan 12, 2007, 08:59 PM
The iPhone is a widescreen iPod with phone capabilities and Internet access. As such it is a successor to the top-level iPod (in price, functionality and status, unfortunately not in storage capacity). Its main fault is its high price, followed by the storage capacity.

I'd agree chances are that this is the new form factor for the top of the line iPods - no reason that fancy interface could be put to use on a media player sans phone.

The original iPod did cost $400 and had only 5 GB memory. It sold well enough and technology progressed fast enough that Apple was able to first offer 5 GB, than 10 GB, than 20 GB and currently 30 GB at a price point of $300, which helped its sales for sure.

The iPhone might follow that model, or it might suffer from its high pricing like the original iPod photos did.

Big difference is that with iPod/iTunes apple blew everything that came before out of the water (and most things since). Now current smartphones (and yes I know it will not be marketed as a smartphone) are less than wonderful to use but compared to the mp3 players that the original iPod competed against they are true models of user friendly integration.

What I can't, perhaps for sheer lack of imagination, see is exactly what about the iPhone blows away the competition. It is perhaps in some ways a better widget (and all us Mac users appreciate a better widget) but I doubt it is going to be an equivalent revenue stream to the iPod. Rather it is a lovely design marker - for the next 10 years all phone designs will probably be referenced against it. So it is undoubtedly a brilliant marker for Apple as a high end (high margin) brand.

barnaby
Jan 12, 2007, 09:10 PM
For European (Q4 2007) and especially for Asian (early 2008) customers iPhone is DOA. Think about it... GSM/EDGE phone as a modern smart phone :rolleyes: If you have ever downloaded mail attachments or any files with GSM/EDGE you know what I'm saying. Thats just painfully slow. Browsing web pages isn't pleasurable either. Modern smart phone needs to be at least 3G or better yet 3.5G. Old GSM/EDGE just won't cut it in real use.

In Q1 2007 Nokia (http://www.nokia.com/nseries/index.html?loc=inside,main_n95&amp;lang=en&amp;country=GB) will be releasing N95 which is 3.5G smart phone that is far ahead of iPhone regarding the features and specs (http://www.nseries.com/nseries/v2/media/product/tech_specs/en-GB/tech_specs_n95_en_GB.html?lang=en&country=GB) By the time iPhone arrives to Europe Nokia, SonyEricsson, Samsung, Moto etc. have released even better phones.

Anyway, I have to say I love iPhone's big screen and that lovely graphics chip and especially the design but thats far as it goes. iPod / phone combo would be great but I rather wait for that real wide screen video iPod that I can actually use without being afraid of running out of battery all the time.

We'd be silly to assume that this is the model that will arrive in asia. They're not gonna be standing still for a year.

They'll probably announce a 2nd generation iPhone by next year's macworld. This one is going to be like the first generation MacBooks and iMacs which didn't even have 64bit processors. They got into the market, and then when they could, they added the Core2Duo.

Apple is serious about entering this market. I'd expect a model with a 3.2gigapixel camera and 3G or better. This will be the model that ships to asia which is much more competetive than the US in regards to cell phones.

I also find it interesting that Cocoa was a bullet on the slide for reasons for using OS X. Especially if the phone is going to be locked. It might be nice if they allow development of widgets (as opposed to full blown apps) which have limited access to the OS.

Realistically, Apple is aiming for 1% of the market, which I'm sure they'll get. Once they're established, expect this product to grow. It won't change much on the outside, but it'll change a lot on the inside.

barnaby
Jan 12, 2007, 09:29 PM
What I can't, perhaps for sheer lack of imagination, see is exactly what about the iPhone blows away the competition. It is perhaps in some ways a better widget (and all us Mac users appreciate a better widget) but I doubt it is going to be an equivalent revenue stream to the iPod. Rather it is a lovely design marker - for the next 10 years all phone designs will probably be referenced against it. So it is undoubtedly a brilliant marker for Apple as a high end (high margin) brand.

1) Mobile market is much bigger. They don't need as big a slice of the market for this to be a big revenue stream.

2) The UI is only going to improve, and as Steve said: they've patented the hell out of it. It can improve on the hardware front, the competition can't match them on the UI front.

3) The original iPod, when it came out was just as unreachably expensive, and only came out in one type. Now we have standard, nano and shuffle.
And no one will argue it's integration is best.

They managed to beat windows media player because iTunes had a better interface and it played the same music. They'll have a much harder time with ms office as most smartphones have some office integration.
Time will tell how they battle this one out. Business users won't be happy with only storing ms word documents they get as email attachments.

If PDF is better than it is on PDA's and smartphones, i for one will love it as I use PDF much more than word as a document format.

Time will tell in the end

Grakkle
Jan 12, 2007, 09:29 PM
All that Cingluar asks in return is exclusivity (for now) and a 2-year contract with them when you purchase. After exclusivity is over, I'm sure Apple will just sell the phone unlocked through its stores like it will do in Europe. At launch in the US, I don't think a significant number of American consumers care enough to have an unlocked phone to make it a big issue and sacrifice the deal with Cingluar.

As I stated in my earlier post, given what most carriers do to their phones in the US in terms of crippling (Verizon being the worst), Apple got really lucky that Cingular is subsidizing for practically nothing except the contract.

The contract limitation is a pretty big deal IMO. It's really a HUGE cap on the phone's versatility, and while I might spend $600 or even more for an unlocked phone (if it was a good one) I would not spend $600 for a locked phone, even the iPhone. Too expensive for what it is.

barnaby
Jan 12, 2007, 09:42 PM
Last time I checked OSX was XNU kernel + libc.

Everything else is value add for the Macintosh platform.

Now I agree with you that I would like to see more freedom, but lets keep these definitions, straight, please! Apple is not lying or even stretching the truth by claiming this thing runs a full OSX. It _does_ run a full OSX. It just appears that many people have a misunderstanding about what an operating system is.


He did include Cocoa and Cora Animation on the slide for reasons why to include it. I think we're talking about more than the kernel here. I agree that it's unlikely to be the entire OS.

I don't think we're going to find out any time soon how far it goes.

feffer37
Jan 12, 2007, 10:12 PM
Sure, you're entitled to your negative opinions about the iPhone, but this bad flap is absolutely insane! It's just like all of you mac-zealots who complained about the iPod, and about every other cool and innovative product that Apple came out with. I mean, sweet jesus you guys, we've been screaming for a full screen ipod, and lone and behold, here it is! What, it's got a phone in it too, so I don't have to carry around 2 devices in my pocket?!?! Wait, and I can surf the internet with this thing?!?!!? Holy crap, I'd pay a Thousand for that convenience!!! $599 is a S-T-E-A-L!!!

You nay-sayers have GOT to put some perspective on this thing. Cool your horses, wait for the actual phone to come out in it's June release, and then render your opinions. And for that matter, for all of the complaining the mac-masses cried over the iPod, isn't it strange that EVERYONE now carries an iPod?!?!

Nuff Said.

amphi
Jan 12, 2007, 10:15 PM
1) Mobile market is much bigger. They don't need as big a slice of the market for this to be a big revenue stream.

but the patch where this first iteration is competing is a much smaller market and dominated by corporate buyers. No way that apple wants any part of the low/no margin bulk of the market.

2) The UI is only going to improve, and as Steve said: they've patented the hell out of it. It can improve on the hardware front, the competition can't match them on the UI front.

agreed, one thing that struck me when this was demoed was the idea that (with wifi) you have an almost perfect front end for an appleTV/media server solution. A sonos remote on steroids - the sonos is nice but only provides an audio solution. An iPhone would make the perfect remote/communicator for in house media control and net access (in addition to the odd phone call).


Time will tell in the end

The cynic in me thinks that the cingular deal says a lot about apples plans - the upfront and ongoing cash they will receive by locking it up will no doubt make up for a big chunk of the development and initial production run costs. Not to mention that if it fails to take off they can always blame the service provider ;)

Object-X
Jan 12, 2007, 10:43 PM
Who pays $600 for a cell phone besides business users who are going to require Outlook integration?

The same people who paid $400 for the first iPod when everyone said that was crazy. Sheesh. Count me in. Saving my pennies.

Besides, this is much more than a cell phone. It will become a platform. First gen devices are always expensive. Just wait, before long there will be the iPhone Nano, the iPhone flip (or iFlip!), ect. :)

rjwill246
Jan 12, 2007, 10:46 PM
DId it ever occur to you that the staggered release is so they can get 3G into the thing?

The complaints about this device vs what is already out there are amazing. I was shopping for phones in the UK, France and Australia a few weeks ago and while they ARE capable of more than the CURRENT iteration of the iPhone, the bits and pieces cost a fortune. In each country, my friends needed SMS services because they considered regular phone use (talking) too expensive!!! Hello!!!!! I need my phone to TALK, not send bloody messages-- that is soooooo low tech and useless... I cannot believe the number of people I saw on the Tube doing messaging instead of talking--- get a grip! TALK for crying out loud.

And that may explain in large part why the US is NOT into messaging. It is slow, and it avoids talking, which is a far more natural meas of communication than sending writen messages-- really, really pathetic. Here, our European counterparts are basically screaming for a system that only does pedestrian tasks. I want to TALK not write messages... that is so low brow!!!

Even with its clearly compromised potential, this is an amazing device that no other phone can equal for all it does-- and it isn't only a phone!!!! Wait for the months to unfold and see where this puppy, based on the best OS out there, OS X, goes. It is sure to get to state of the art in no short order--- then, our poorer cousins might be able to actually talk to people at a reasonable price and not have to use an idiotic keyboard to communicate if their servic providers offered decent prices-- something that is sorely lacking right now. To get over 1000 VOICE minutes for 60 odd bucks a monhs in the US is not exceptional--- I tried that in the UK and Australia and couldn't believe the prices. In addition, no country that I have come across offers the same speed on the Internet for computing that the US does for such low prices. So these complaints from outside the US are odd---- In any case, 3G is likely, then hang on for 4G--- they are just around the corner.

stephenli
Jan 12, 2007, 10:54 PM
I suppose iPhone would have its 3G version by 2008, as one of its major market - JAPAN - does not use GSM network.....

really shocked that the phone have SIM-Lock... i was planning to get one and use other network regardless of 2 yr contract...
and how come it doesnt support flash and java....cannot believe.....

btw how about .mac?! how about mail account @mac.com?!
Yahoo!?.....well....i really want .mac.....

shrimpdesign
Jan 12, 2007, 10:57 PM
I think a lot of people are looking at this wrong.

The iPhone isn't a smartphone. Remember the keynote? Steve said they were releasing an iPod, a phone and a internet communicator. I think they covered the three basic needs for a mobile device.

Personally, I carry around a phone, an iPod and a Nokia 770.

The phone was about $30 with a 2-year contract, my iPod was $79 and my Nokia 770 was $350. Now if I add the prices up it's 529 (after changing the iPod's price to the reasonable price of a 2GB Nano).

So that's enough to get a 4GB iPhone. I know I would definately jump on that. And not only would I only have to carry one device, my phone would FINALLY sync with iCal and I would have a much better video watching expirience than the Nokia 770.

The iPhone may not be a good choice for you, but I doubt it'll fail. It's going to be extremely popular.

Remember, the iPod had a lot less features than mp3 players back then, but with it's exceptional input device (scroll wheel) and overall simplicity.

chubad
Jan 12, 2007, 11:10 PM
This from David Pogues blog Today in the comments section:

"NEWS FLASH! Just spoke to a recent Apple ex-programmer who says that, in fact, the decision on third-party widgets has not yet been made. So maybe there’s a backdoor to adding new apps to this phone after all."

suneohair
Jan 12, 2007, 11:33 PM
I suppose iPhone would have its 3G version by 2008, as one of its major market - JAPAN - does not use GSM network.....

really shocked that the phone have SIM-Lock... i was planning to get one and use other network regardless of 2 yr contract...
and how come it doesnt support flash and java....cannot believe.....

btw how about .mac?! how about mail account @mac.com?!
Yahoo!?.....well....i really want .mac.....

No need for supposition when you follow up with a fact about Japan's network. It WILL have 3G by 08 at the latest. No doubts.

The bulk that is added to a quad band wifi phone isn't what Apple wants. In a year the tech will shrink and they can fit it in the same package. I personally don't want a brick like the Treo 750 or a dual band Q for the sake of having speeds not available in my area.

SIM-lock. That is probably apart of the agreement with Cingular. The new legislation might allow users to get an unlock code anyway. I havent looked into it much.

.mac is simple. Apple doesn't have near the amount of infrastructure that Yahoo has for delivering push mail to millions of iPhone users.

Maybe the mail can be .mac but tied to Yahoo? Forwarding maybe so you can use the .Mac?

The server limitations are likely the reason for no .Mac action.

Bali Cockfight
Jan 12, 2007, 11:50 PM
Remember this though, if Apple let every Tom Dick and Harry develop for the Mac platform the chances are pretty high that you'd get the same old crap thats on the current PDA's let alone PC's.

Seriously have you seen the apps available for some of Palms models. They are awful.


That's right! Look at how discerning Apple is with widget developers. [sarcasm]

jhedges3
Jan 12, 2007, 11:59 PM
I really, really hope that iPhone can open attached .doc and .xls files.... :(

Why?

Why would anyone want to read, edit, or create these sorts of documents on an iPhone? It just doesn't seem like the right device for it. Why not just wait until you get to your desktop or your laptop? Do you really get attached .doc and .xls files that are that important? I don't.

Stella
Jan 13, 2007, 12:07 AM
http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/index.cfm?RSS&newsID=16919

"UPDATE 12.01.07: Apple vice president of worldwide iPod marketing Greg Joswiak confirmed the iPhone's lack of support for VoIP, saying: "You can’t do VoIP, Edge and WiFi are data networks and they will carry data only""

Right, so WiFi can't do VoIP? Utter, utter horse*****

Gurutech
Jan 13, 2007, 12:09 AM
Why?

Why would anyone want to read, edit, or create these sorts of documents on an iPhone? It just doesn't seem like the right device for it. Why not just wait until you get to your desktop or your laptop? Do you really get attached .doc and .xls files that are that important? I don't.

on the go, you may download that kind of files from email message or from internet webpage.

I can keep linting all the possible reasons people may want to open up the .doc or .xls to check something.
Yes, they probably don't want to edit, but they should be able to open it up and read.



WHAT???????????WIFI CANNOT DO VOIP????
wow. nice progress

Konradx
Jan 13, 2007, 12:13 AM
Didnt get a response in the other thread. Anyone know who will be picking up the Canadian Contract?

Stella
Jan 13, 2007, 12:22 AM
Didnt get a response in the other thread. Anyone know who will be picking up the Canadian Contract?

Rogers, its the only GSM network, since Rogers bought Fido.

Maxipeg
Jan 13, 2007, 12:22 AM
...Even with its clearly compromised potential, this is an amazing device that no other phone can equal for all it does-- and it isn't only a phone!!!! Wait for the months to unfold and see where this puppy, based on the best OS out there, OS X, goes.

I hope Apple listens to all these comments. Frankly I am not so impressed with that phone. Functionality and flexibility has to improve. WHAT? I won't be able to read documents that people send me by e-mail? Steve, you beter fix this. Also, this obsession not to use a stylus, it appears as Steve doesn't want anything that could remind people of a PDA since he dumped the Newton. Some people would love to use one. Perhaps to take a quick note. Or to draw a quick sketch. Or simply because they don't want to touch the screen too much with their sweaty, greasy fingers. Actually I have a Palm TX and a bluetooth phone. I would love to have a little gadget based on OS X with more functionality. Right now, the only real advantage the iPhone appears to have over my Palm TX - Bluetooth phone combo is the better browser, it is true, the Palm browser sucks (but it appears that the iPhone version of Safari will have some serious limitations too). Otherwise, I can listen to music, watch movies (4 GB SD cards have become really cheap), use e-pocrates for drug reference, take notes, .... Other than that, I have a mobile phone plan that is extremely competitive and flexible (800 minutes/month for 40 bucks, no contract. I had to pay somewhat more for the phone but it was worth it). Unlikely that the iPhone as it is now will make me to move to Cingular for a 2-year contract.

peharri
Jan 13, 2007, 12:26 AM
Keep in mind, Cingular is a company that recently acquired AT&T and Voicestream, thus making it the largest mobile carrier in the U.S.

FWIW Voicestream is T-Mobile USA, having been bought by DT a few years ago. It was never purchased by Cingular. But it certainly is the largest carrier in the US.

Maxipeg
Jan 13, 2007, 12:32 AM
WHAT???????????WIFI CANNOT DO VOIP????
wow. nice progress

I think this would not be in the best interest of Cingular... Perhaps VOIP will be actively prevented, Apple wants to have full control on what is being installed...

suneohair
Jan 13, 2007, 04:04 AM
One thing about VOIP. I don't remember if it was mentioned here. But it may be avoided for the time being because of the iPhone name debacle. Cisco's iPhone is a VOIP phone. Adding that functionality may cause more problems.

ts1973
Jan 13, 2007, 04:30 AM
I am ready to replace my SE P900 whenever Apple's ready, if I ever get the chance (if it ever reaches Belgium, which I'm still not sure of because of the laws that forbid locked phones here).

But I do really really need one thing and that's Outlook integration. And so does every windows user (I'm a double platform user FYI). No way I can buy this without it. I don't really care about word or excel, I never use these on my P900 either (however I could if I wanted to). But Outlook integration is a no brainer.

I'm very anxious to see where this is going...

post-prof
Jan 13, 2007, 04:48 AM
on the go, you may download that kind of files from email message or from internet webpage.

I can keep linting all the possible reasons people may want to open up the .doc or .xls to check something.
Yes, they probably don't want to edit, but they should be able to open it up and read.



WHAT???????????WIFI CANNOT DO VOIP????
wow. nice progress

I really don't understand when people want to open excel spreadsheet in pda and mobile phone. As a businessman I usualy work on spreadsheets with hundreds of lines and lots of columns with complex formulas and lots of graphs. Serious people wont ever consider to open these kind of docs on their mobiles. They will just use their powereful notebook or desktop computer with a glorious 19inch screen to view and edit. So this is funny argument for me. No I dont want to open or check anything on my mobile. I will just wait to go to my office and do that.

matticus008
Jan 13, 2007, 05:38 AM
I really don't understand when people want to open excel spreadsheet in pda and mobile phone. As a businessman I usualy work on spreadsheets with hundreds of lines and lots of columns with complex formulas and lots of graphs. Serious people wont ever consider to open these kind of docs on their mobiles. They will just use their powereful notebook or desktop computer with a glorious 19inch screen to view and edit. So this is funny argument for me. No I dont want to open or check anything on my mobile. I will just wait to go to my office and do that.

Exactly. Not only that, but the mobile versions of Word and Excel are not feature-complete, nor are they capable of rendering the full standard formatting. The documents I work with have specific formatting set by conventions and statutes, and Word mobile can't display them properly (or even meaningfully--the line numbers get scattered into the text). If I make any changes from my smartphone, I can forget about being able to print them--any of it would be rejected by the court.

Mobile document access is a complete gimmick that only matters for geeks who want to find missing "features" or for people who don't actually use any of the advanced features of the Office programs and therefore might as well just save everything as a text document or an HTML table, for all it matters.

The contract limitation is a pretty big deal IMO. It's really a HUGE cap on the phone's versatility, and while I might spend $600 or even more for an unlocked phone (if it was a good one) I would not spend $600 for a locked phone, even the iPhone. Too expensive for what it is.

So unlock it. It's not against the law--there is a specific exemption for it, in fact. Carriers are not permitted to prosecute or punish in any way customers who unlock their phones.

peharri
Jan 13, 2007, 08:00 AM
One more thing to add to the ongoing 3G debate:

When the phone finally debuts in Europe, it seems probable that then, or shortly afterwards, it will support UMTS. This is because a non-3G "smartphone" (or "internet communicator" if you prefer that) is dead in the water in Europe. I would imagine they'll have difficulty finding any operators who'd want to subsidize something that only works on GSM networks, and only efficiently works on EDGE networks, and even if they do, people are going to make serious comparisons between the 3G smartphones already on sale in Europe and Apple's crippled effort.

This is being extrapolated to mean "Don't worry folks, an unlocked, 3G phone will be out by the end of the year, we'll just have to import them from Europe."

Unfortunately, that's not the case. Europe has standardized on 1900MHz/2100 as the frequency pair used for 3G over there. In the US, Cingular's current network uses 1900 for both the uplink and downlink, 850MHz for both too, and both Cingular and T-Mobile will be rolling out UMTS over 1700MHz/2100MHz in the near future.

This confusion is why 3G phones aren't being imported in quite the same way as 2G phones are.

So if you're looking at this as "It doesn't matter, 3G will come soon because it has to for Europe", then you're probably going to be disappointed. Unless you live in Europe. You're unlikely to be able to use a European, unlocked, 3G Apple Telephonic Device on T-Mobile USA except in EDGE mode.

Stella
Jan 13, 2007, 08:08 AM
Yes, that is understandable, two telephony devices that can do VOIP may upset Cisco.

All the more reason why Apple should drop the iPhone crap it created for itself and rename it something else.

One thing about VOIP. I don't remember if it was mentioned here. But it may be avoided for the time being because of the iPhone name debacle. Cisco's iPhone is a VOIP phone. Adding that functionality may cause more problems.

sionharris
Jan 13, 2007, 09:05 AM
i can understand the disappointment that some of these features might not be in the first iphone but some of the knee-jerk reactions in this thread are almost embarassing to read. this phone is SIX MONTHS away from being released. that is, wait for it, about 20% of its total development time. given the number of features that have been incorporated in the first two years, and that includes the time taken to physically design the thing, i wouldn't be surprised if apple addresses at least 60-70% of the major gripes, yet some of you are talking like it has already been released!

seriously, calm down... if apple don't get it quite right in june i am certain that by 2009 the iphone will be unquestionably the best mobile phone in the world. it will have ipod's status in the mobile phone world, but without ipod's marketshare.

so to all of the doubters... i was only 12 at the time but it seems to me that the tam was massively overpriced right from the beginning. the g4 cube was not aimed at a large market and was overpriced given that it was just a computer. the iphone is aiming at the largest electronic market in the world and is competitively priced (this thing looks eons ahead of anything i've ever seen), and yet some of you are talking like it has already failed.

asphalt-proof
Jan 13, 2007, 09:18 AM
That's one of the interesting tidbits about this phone, it really doesn't look like it's been aimed at business users. Apparently Apple decided to carve out a different territory that most phone makers have largely ignored.


Then why did he make such a pooint to compare it to RIM, Treos, and other business phones? The whole point of those phones is business connectivity. Even in the after-keynote interviews, the comparisons were made. If all he is doing is comparing them because of their looks (but not feature set) then he's completely misrepresenting the product. A more apt comparison would have been a SE w810i or Nokia N73 etc.

As the iPhone stands NOW, no its not a smartphone. But maybe by the time it appears in June will have Exchange support, document retrieval and editing. I could see third party programs being sold through iTunes. It would make complete sense and the structure is already in place. I'm waiting for the 2nd or 3rd generation before saving cash for this.

rish
Jan 13, 2007, 10:19 AM
I've read with great interest what most of you have blogged on this forum and the one thing that keeps coming up is this. Why have the leading competitors in this market never really innovated in the same way Apple has? Not one of these companies has really come close in my opinion in developing a Smart Phone with the UI and ease of use nor the flawless design as the iPhone.

Okay the iPhone currently is based on GSM/GPRS which is old hat now, but hey even with that old tech look what the iPhone can do, rich text email, great web browsing, google maps (zoom in and out without pissing about), iPod, blah blah blah. ITS NOT EVEN GOT FCC APPROVAL YET IT STILL OUT DOES THE LEADING CROWD (shares dipping in the major mobile phone manufacturers after the iPhone intro is evidence to that).

Now keep at the forefront of your mind how much time each of the market leaders has had in developing something to at least counter Apples efforts into the mobile/cell phone market (including the 2 plus years in develpoing the iPhone). Samsung rolled out phones looking like an iPod while Nokia the leader in the industry released its NSeries that either look like thicker versions of Tungsten Palm's or mini DV camera with mini keyboards. All I believe are 3G. What a waste of R&D funds at these companies hey, however there is something much more important. THE MARKET LEADERS NEVER REALLY FULLY UTILISED THE GSM NETWORKS IN THE WAY APPLE HAS DEMONSTRATED.

So you'll still cite issues, but hey again I say to you, its not got FCC approval yet, certainly in that time there will be advancements. Yes I appreciate that there are business users among you who need to open certain documents that are forwarded via email, but hey THIS IS NOT A BUSINESS USER PHONE, ITS A GENERAL CONSUMER PHONE.

Jobs made the comparison against other Smart phones but not for the reasons some of you think.

I hear you say, why would a general consumer want to fork out a huge amount of cash.

I would and I’m a general consumer. I’m more discerning when it comes to purchasing devices I’ve had to endure years of poor user experience with not only Nokia phones but now Sony Ericsson phones (which are better than most until last Tuesday). This is not too different from my experience as a PC user funny enough. Which is why I have never renewed my contract with my service provider.

I would buy this phone as it will allow me to do things easily on a beautiful device. I care little at this stage that it is not 3g device and that it won’t open certain types of documents. In my eyes this device is far superior to the Smart phones currently out there.

What this phone means for me is that I no longer have to put up with overcomplicated products that fail to live up to expectations.

Zadillo
Jan 13, 2007, 10:33 AM
I think you're on to something.

I think Apple isn't necessarily going with the hardcore smartphone crowd with this phone; that is, the people who buy Blackberries, Treos, etc. and install lots of third party apps, use their Exchange mail with it, etc.

The smartphone makers have been trying to target consumers with their devices. Look at some of the more consumer-friendly blackberries, or more recently, the Palm Treo 680. The Treo 680 is clearly aimed at consumers, although the way it is is kind of half-assed ("look, it's a Treo you can buy in different colors! Consumers love buying stuff in different colors!").

Palm, RIM, etc. have been really trying to push the idea that consumer users want and should use their smartphones too, because it will of course greatly expand their market.

But the problem is, these devices aren't necessarily well suited for the average consumer.

Personally I like my Treo 650 ok, but I can't imagine giving it to a non-techie friend or family members, and explaining to them how to install third party apps, how to browse the web with Blazer, how to set up their e-mail accounts, etc.

But the appeal is still there; my mom for example was telling me she wanted a Treo like mine because she thought it was cool she could send and read e-mail on it, browse the web, etc. But I can't imagine her using the junky mail client my Treo comes with (and the third party stuff like Chatteremail is very good, but I think over her head).

But I think for this "consumer smartphone" market, that might what the iPhone is really aimed at, at least for now. People who like the idea of some smartphone capabilities, but wouldn't be well suited to actually carry a Treo or Blackberry around.

So I think that's why the iPhone's focus is on much smoother contact management, a nicer web browsing and e-mail experience, and photo, movie and music management that is really far ahead of what you can do on a Treo or Windows Mobile-device.

crazytom
Jan 13, 2007, 10:49 AM
.

TheBobcat
Jan 13, 2007, 10:50 AM
So I think that's why the iPhone's focus is on much smoother contact management, a nicer web browsing and e-mail experience, and photo, movie and music management that is really far ahead of what you can do on a Treo or Windows Mobile-device.

THANK YOU JESUS! SOMEONE GETS IT!!!!!! :D

Warbrain
Jan 13, 2007, 10:57 AM
THANK YOU JESUS! SOMEONE GETS IT!!!!!! :D

I'll have you know that I've gotten it from the start and I'm absolutely happy with the iPhone as it was announced.

jhande
Jan 13, 2007, 11:36 AM
THANK YOU JESUS! SOMEONE GETS IT!!!!!! :D

And I've got it from the start as well. I'm just not happy with it. :rolleyes: If only it would 'be all that it could be'.

Zadillo
Jan 13, 2007, 11:47 AM
And I've got it from the start as well. I'm just not happy with it. :rolleyes: If only it would 'be all that it could be'.

Understandable. And I think I really would look at it as a first generation device.

Think about all the things missing from the original iPod, for example (or the original Mac, or the Newton or any number of things). Heck, look at all the things that were missing from Handspring's original Treo even.

I think that the product will evolve as more features and capabilities are added.

I'm more excited about seeing how Apple rolls this technology in the iPhone out to other devices, like a new iPod, or a sort of true "tablet"-style Mac.

coffey7
Jan 13, 2007, 11:54 AM
Why Cingular? I live near a city and everyone uses Verizon because the phones work better. Plus I can call everyone I know for free. If I switched to the Iphone then I would have to pay for every call and in the town where I live The coverage is crap for Nextel, Cingular and sprint. Sorry no deal.

Zadillo
Jan 13, 2007, 11:58 AM
Why Cingular? I live near a city and everyone uses Verizon because the phones work better. Plus I can call everyone I know for free. If I switched to the Iphone then I would have to pay for every call and in the town where I live The coverage is crap for Nextel, Cingular and sprint. Sorry no deal.

Because a) Verizon is CDMA, and Apple is launching this phone as a GSM device, which is a more popular standard around the world. b) Verizon is a control-freak company that probably doesn't even want the iPhone on its network. Granted, Verizon does sell the Q and the Treo, but they probably wouldn't have seen the iPhone that way, and would have wanted to dictate the features and UI more closely. c) Verizon may be good in your area, but it isn't everywhere. No matter which company Apple went with initially, there would be places where the coverage was good, and places where it was bad. Cingular was probably a safe bet to start out with. d) Cingular seems to be pretty willing to work closely with Apple (to the point they even made changes to their voicemail system to enable the "visual voicemail" functionality of the iPhone. It is questionable whether Verizon would do the same.

BigHat
Jan 13, 2007, 01:09 PM
Isn't another HUGE unknown the $$$ Cingular is going to charge us on a monthly basis? I forecast 2 years of a VERY high monthly rate.

I want to justify this phone but it's just too hard.

For me, it's a free highend BB from work and all the phone time and msgs I care to use vs this thing. I'm supposed to trade that for a $600 phone and I'm guessing at least $100 a month bill for use. Plus I get that added pleasure of no Outlook sync which is what I live on at work.

I wished they had made the thing a 100 gig video iPod with a few new features. I'm sick of the small video iPod screen during air travel.

tja
Jan 13, 2007, 01:37 PM
Note...hopeful speculation below! :)

In everyone's opinion, what are the odds of Apple developing a product containing 2 of the 3 features of the iPhone: a new widescreen iPod with Wifi browsing capabilities, with of course the new multi-touch screen?

Since Cingular does not provide great coverage in my location, I would love to buy a product with the '2 of 3' features stated above!

I want to buy an iPod, but am holding off until I possibly hear of either the potential product above is developed, or at the very least a new widescreen iPod alone is created with the new multi-touch screen capabilities.

What does everyone think? Should I hold my breath waiting for either of these 2 scenarios to unfold?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

Tom