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maradong
May 17, 2003, 05:43 AM
Macbidouille posts the following.

A propos de Darwin, il est intéressant de noter que les sources ne sont plus mises à jour depuis février. Maintenant Apple diffuse uniquement les sources correspondantes aux versions officielles de MacOSX. Par exemple,Darwin 6.6 pour OS X 10.2.6.

Auparavant, Apple diffusait aussi les sources des versions en développement sur leurs serveurs CVS. Ainsi en mai dernier, on avait déjà accès aux sources du futur Jaguar. Apple prenait toutefois le temps d'enlever les parties du code écrites pour supporter des produits non sortis.

J'imagine que s'ils ont ajouté le support du PowerPC 970 dans Darwin. Ce n'est pas un petit nettoyage qu'il faut faire subir au code pour cacher ces modifications.

On peut alors imaginer qu'avec le support du PowerPC 970, il était devenu impossible de cacher ces modifications. Et c'est peut être pourquoi Apple se limite depuis février à diffuser les sources des versions officielles.

Les outils pour développeurs ont subi le même traitement. On a l'impression qu'Apple a arrêté de travailler dessus depuis décembre.

A mon avis, la sortie de Macintosh à base de PowerPC 970 est certaine. Mais Apple veut préserver l'effet d'annonce.

Autre chose, j'ai eu confirmation que c'était le matériau à faible k, leSiLK, qui était à la base des nouveaux Power4+ à 1,7 GHz. Ils doivent sortir en juillet. Avec le même matériau, les PowerPC 970 devraient tourner à 2,3 GHz et plus.

En gros, Le PowerPC 970 c'est un Power4+ gravé plus fin. On n'a pas les mêmes exigeances de fiabilité pour ce type de processeur. Mais plus un processeur est gravé fin plus il est rapide. Le problème c'est que l'on atteint alors d'autres limites physiques. Et il faut alors faciliter le passage des électrons en utilisant des matériaux à faible k. Pour IBM, c'est le SiLK pour la gravure en 0,13 um. Et encore nouveau matériau pour la gravure en 0,09 um.

Comme le PowerPC 970 est gravé plus fin que le Power4+, il bénéficiera plus de ce nouveau matériau. Et il devrait atteindre dans un futur proche 2,5 GHz comme IBM l'a annoncé un moment. Fin 2003, début 2004, il devrait bénéficier de la gravure à 0,09 um. Et fin 2004, IBM va y ajouter le"strained silicon". Dont le but est toujours d'accélérer la mobilité des électrons. Le Power5+ atteindra alors 3 GHz. Et le PowerPC 970/980 peutêtre 4,5 GHz. Si les rapports se maintienent.

Voilà c'est tout ce que je sais,


the translation will follow immediatly, give me 10 minutes.

maradong
May 17, 2003, 05:50 AM
I hope your gonna understand something my english isnt really one of the best...


Let's start with Darwin, its interesting to note that the darwin sources haven t been update since febuary. Now, Apple is spreading only the sources corresponding at the official versions of MacOSX. For instance, Darwin 6.6 for OS X 10.2.6

Before, Apple spreaded also the sources for the versions in devel on their servers. Hence, in the may 2002 the community already had access to the future Jaguar. Apple took their time to take out the parts of the code written to allow non-released products to be supported.

I imagine that Apple have put-in the support of the PPC970 into darwin. It is only a little modification you have to make to the source to hide the modifications.

We could now imagine that with the support of the PPC 970, it has become impossible to hide the modifications. And it is perhaps because of this point that Apple has decided to limit the grab'in of the sources of the official version.

The Developpment utilities have been treated the same way. We think that Apple has stopped to work at it since last december.

Another point is that it is the material with a little k ( ??? ), the SiLO, who will be used as the basis of the new Power4+ @ 1.7 ghz. They have to come out in july. With the same material the PPC 970 should be able to turn @ 2.3 ghz and even faster.

[Edit] hm that has been difficult .. [/edit ]

In general, the power pc 970 is a power4+with a smaller gravature.
**** I don t know how to translate that, even if i understand it well... ****
A finer cpu is generally faster.

Can please anybody else continu the work? my english is just to bad to write the following lines.
TIA

Tiauguinho
May 17, 2003, 06:05 AM
Thanks Maradong for the translation and for bringing this news for all of us! This is indeed some more great news for us all. IBM is pushing things forward! Go Apple go!

wallinbl
May 17, 2003, 06:23 AM
From Google:

In connection with Darwin, it is interesting to note that the sources are not updated any more since February. Now APPLE diffuses only the sources corresponding to the official versions of MacOSX. For example, Darwin 6.6 for OS X 10.2.6. Previously, APPLE diffused also the sources of the versions under development on their waiters CVS. Ainsi last May, one had already access to the sources of the future Jaguar. APPLE took however time to remove the parts of the code written to support products not left. I imagine that if they added the support of PowerPC 970 in Darwin. It is not a small cleaning which it is necessary to subject the code to hide these modifications. One can then imagine that with the support of PowerPC 970, it had become impossible to hide these modifications. And it east can be why APPLE is limited since February to diffuse the sources of the official versions. The tools for developers underwent the same treatment. One has the impression that APPLE stopped working above since December. With my opinion, the exit of Macintosh containing PowerPC 970 is certain. But APPLE wants to preserve the effect of advertisement. Another thing, I had confirmation that it was the material with low K, leSiLK, which was at the base of new Power4+ with 1,7 GHz. They must leave in July. With same material, PowerPC 970 should turn to 2,3 GHz and more. Approximately, PowerPC 970 it is finer engraved Power4+. There is not same the exigeances reliability for this type of processor. But more one processor is engraved fine more it is fast. The problem it is that one reaches others then limit physical. And it is then necessary to facilitate the passage of the electrons by using materials with low K For IBM, it is SiLK for engraving in 0,13 um. And still new material for engraving in 0,09 um. As PowerPC 970 is engraved finer than Power4+, it will profit more this new material. And it should reach in an immediate future 2,5 GHz as IBM announced one moment. At the end of 2003, at the beginning of 2004, it should profit from engraving with 0,09 um. And at the end of 2004, IBM will add le"strained silicon to it ". The goal is always to accelerate the mobility of the electrons. Power5+ will reach 3 then GHz. And PowerPC 970/980 peutêtre 4,5 GHz. If the reports/ratios are maintienent. Here it is all that I know,

Belgium
May 17, 2003, 06:37 AM
Originally posted by maradong
Macbidouille posts the following.

the translation will follow immediatly, give me 10 minutes.

Here's my try to translate the last part of the post:

So, in short, the PowerPC 970 is a Power4+ but manufactured with a smaller etching technology (difficult to translate indeed!). This is possible because the reliability of the 970 doesn't need to be as high as that of the Power4. But by using the smaller manufacturing process a processor can run faster. Problem remains that you hit other physical barriers. To keep the electrons going in the right direction you need materials with a low k value. IBM is using SiLK for the 0,13 micron manufacturing process and again other materials for the 0,09 micron process.

Because the PowerPC 970 is manufactured using the 'smaller' process compared to the Power4, its performance will improve more with this new material. This will result in 2,5GHz in a not so far future, as IBM announced recently. End 2003, beginning of 2004, it will be produced using the 0,09 micron process. End 2004, IBM will add "strained silicon". The reason for all of this is to improve the mobility of the electrons. The Power5+ will get to 3 GHz. And the PowerPC 970/980 will probably reach 4,5 GHz. Based on these reports.

That's it. My native language is Flemish so don't shoot the messenger because I was translating from my second to my third language. :rolleyes:

maradong
May 17, 2003, 06:59 AM
Originally posted by Belgium


That's it. My native language is Flemish so don't shoot the messenger because I was translating from my second to my third language. :rolleyes:

same for me, i only know luxembourgish german , french, english and spanish :(

maradong
May 17, 2003, 07:02 AM
Originally posted by wallinbl
From Google:

does google translate it that way, i can t follow your point..

hvfsl
May 17, 2003, 07:06 AM
What it sounds like they are basically saying is that IBM is going to use the 0.09 microns manufacturing process (this is how wide the wires or circuit pathways are). As a comparison AMD recently switched from 0.18 to 0.13. Intel is also now at 0.13 but plans to go to 0.09 some time in the future.

Having smaller circuit pathways means the chip requires less power, gives off less heat and can run faster. So the 0.09 PPC970 should be OK for a powerbook G5/PPC970.

King Cobra
May 17, 2003, 07:45 AM
The translation as Babelfish has it (http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?lp=fr_en&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.macbidouille.com%2Fniouzcontenu.php%3Fdate%3D2003-05-17%235568)

I may sound like the knife in the back, but I doubt the new machines carrying the PPC 970 chip will be released in July. I don't feel Apple has enough of the supplies and time to manufacture 6 or 7 digits worth of machines carrying the PPC 970 chip. Even if Apple did announce these machines in July, they may not ship until later in the year. Also, the quantity of these chips, whatever it is now, will significantly increase the longer Apple and ourselves wait. The end result is a $2000 machine running a PPC 970, rather than a $3000 machine running a dual processor G4.

Remember when the first G4 machine was announced? It was based on the G3 motherboard. The G4 was not expected to arrive until 2000 or even 2001. Instead, it was released before the year 2000. To top it off, it was $3500 without a monitor.

I still remember using my father's computer and going to Apple's website, to find that the first supercomputer was being sold for under $4000. I remember my father walking into his office when I was using his machine, as he noticed the new machines on his CRT. He told me the G4s were not even supposed to come out yet.

I doubt Apple wants to go through this mistake of being rushed. It is nearly impossible for something being rushed to go unnoticed. Yet it is also almost impossible for something to go unrushed and not have both time and effort spent on the project. In this case, it is perfecting the new machines and their accompanying processors.

dhdave
May 17, 2003, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by King Cobra

I may sound like the knife in the back, but I doubt the new machines carrying the PPC 970 chip will be released in July. I don't feel Apple has enough of the supplies and time to manufacture 6 or 7 digits worth of machines carrying the PPC 970 chip. Even if Apple did announce these machines in July, they may not ship until later in the year. Also, the quantity of these chips, whatever it is now, will significantly increase the longer Apple and ourselves wait. The end result is a $2000 machine running a PPC 970, rather than a $3000 machine running a dual processor G4.

I agree 100%. The time frame is just too short. Releasing them at WWDC would be great, but IMO it's total fantasy.

--dh

QCassidy352
May 17, 2003, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by maradong
same for me, i only know luxembourgish german , french, english and spanish :(

hey, that's pretty darn good if you ask me... I just speak english and spanish (the latter almost fluently). :) Thanks for the info; sounds like great news!

I hope Mac Bidouille is on target with all of their many predictions. Either they have a some very high up sources or they have been talking out of their ***** for a long time now.

ericthemacpope
May 17, 2003, 10:59 PM
Originally posted by dhdave
I agree 100%. The time frame is just too short. Releasing them at WWDC would be great, but IMO it's total fantasy.

--dh
I also agree. We know they are realeasing panther at wwdc, but what else will they introduce? Will they mention the 970? they did mention itunes 4 way back in the year, but the 970 is little higher on the "upgrade scale".
eric

Freg3000
May 18, 2003, 08:12 AM
Originally posted by hvfsl
What it sounds like they are basically saying is that IBM is going to use the 0.09 microns manufacturing process (this is how wide the wires or circuit pathways are). As a comparison AMD recently switched from 0.18 to 0.13. Intel is also now at 0.13 but plans to go to 0.09 some time in the future.

Does anyone know the next step after 0.09 microns? Like 0.06 or 0.05? Or is 0.09 the farthest our current technology can go?

dhdave
May 18, 2003, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by ericthemacpope:

I also agree. We know they are realeasing panther at wwdc, but what else will they introduce? Will they mention the 970? they did mention itunes 4 way back in the year, but the 970 is little higher on the "upgrade scale".



I don't think they are even releasing panther are they? Unless I've read it wrong, and maybe I have, everyone at WWDC will get a preview release of Panther, not the final. Big difference IMO. If they were releasing it, then I would say that adds much more weight to the possibility of new Power Macs. However all the estimates I have heard are still shooting for a September launch.
If that is the case I would expect new PM on or after that date. Not before. Especially not with them making small upgrades to make the current PM more compatible with Panther. Why would they bother if the NEW machines were coming out? The answer is they wouldn't. SJ wants you to buy a new machine, not stay with the old stuff.

--dh

ericthemacpope
May 18, 2003, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by dhdave
I don't think they are even releasing panther are they? Unless I've read it wrong, and maybe I have, everyone at WWDC will get a preview release of Panther, not the final. Big difference IMO. If they were releasing it, then I would say that adds much more weight to the possibility of new Power Macs. However all the estimates I have heard are still shooting for a September launch.
If that is the case I would expect new PM on or after that date. Not before. Especially not with them making small upgrades to make the current PM more compatible with Panther. Why would they bother if the NEW machines were coming out? The answer is they wouldn't. SJ wants you to buy a new machine, not stay with the old stuff.

--dh

yeah your right, they are previewing it. On apple.com it says, "Get an in-depth look at the future of the Mac platform and a preview release of the next major version of Mac OS X, codenamed "Panther", at Worldwide Developers Conference 2003, June 23-27, in San Francisco. " But do you think they will even mention the 970's or are they trying to keep low profile until their launch?

nuckinfutz
May 18, 2003, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by Freg3000
Does anyone know the next step after 0.09 microns? Like 0.06 or 0.05? Or is 0.09 the farthest our current technology can go?

I think you'll see ..065 microns. Intel will go from .09 to .065 so I assume that may be the next logical step for all.

dhdave
May 18, 2003, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by ericthemacpope

yeah your right, they are previewing it. On apple.com it says, "Get an in-depth look at the future of the Mac platform and a preview release of the next major version of Mac OS X, codenamed "Panther", at Worldwide Developers Conference 2003, June 23-27, in San Francisco. " But do you think they will even mention the 970's or are they trying to keep low profile until their launch?

It's hard to say. On the one hand I think panther and the new hardware go hand in hand. You can't really extoll the virtues of one without the other. On the other hand we all know if they preview the hardware and say it will be available at x time in the future, Power Mac sales will damn near cease or at least take a large hit. Maybe apple feels they can't get any lower, I don't know. I know it won't stop me from buying a dual 1.42 but I'm a freak. LOL

--dh