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MacRumors
Feb 1, 2007, 04:38 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Crunchgear reports (http://crunchgear.com/2007/02/01/source-microsoft-zune-phone-in-the-works/) that Microsoft may be working on their own mobile phone under the Zune brand.

We’ve just received a sound tip that Microsoft is working on its very own phone to be branded under the Zune moniker. Our tipsters inform us that Microsoft execs are in meetings today hammering out details of the device and developing strategies and timescales for its release.

The Zune phone is reportedly not even in development yet, but is expected to be a "smartphone" and run a modified version of the current Zune interface/operating system. The target launch date, however, is said to as soon as holiday 2007.

Despite obvious comparisons to Apple's iPhone initiative, the original Zune had been expected (http://www.macrumors.com/2006/07/11/microsoft-argo-ipod-killer/) to be a long term effort and only the beginning of a line of digital products.

Many have commented that Apple's early iPhone announcement has given competitors a 6-month lead time to market. Indeed, the announcement did first reveal Apple's "touch OS X" which could serve as the basis for a line of future digital devices from Apple.



Much Ado
Feb 1, 2007, 04:40 PM
Another triumph for innovation.

MA.

iEric
Feb 1, 2007, 04:42 PM
WOW they really can't think of anything by themselves. holy shiza manelli.

blasto333
Feb 1, 2007, 04:42 PM
M$ just loves to copy apple. Their OS, their Zune and now a smartphone.

chubad
Feb 1, 2007, 04:44 PM
Wow. A Zune phone.:rolleyes: They are hoping to capitalize on all of the tremendous Zune sales. I hope they offer it in brown. Or possibly for real Microsoft style innovation, BEIGE!!:o

Dagless
Feb 1, 2007, 04:45 PM
Monkey see, monkey do.

xyian
Feb 1, 2007, 04:45 PM
As I am a practicing psychic, I will tell you all what I see.......

I see a touch screen interface and a transparent scrolling feature.

It's hazy but I also see a music store interface.

IJ Reilly
Feb 1, 2007, 04:45 PM
So Microsoft will now begin competing directly with their OS licensees? That'll teach 'em to trust Microsoft.

Peace
Feb 1, 2007, 04:45 PM
A Zune Phone?

That "cracks" me up..:p

QCassidy352
Feb 1, 2007, 04:46 PM
If you worked in microsoft R&D and someone asked you what you did for a living, could you tell them without blushing? I know I couldn't.

aricher
Feb 1, 2007, 04:46 PM
Jeebus... just what the world needs. I bet it's gonna look great. :rolleyes:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/176/368241530_d4ecdba5aa_o.jpg

m4rc
Feb 1, 2007, 04:47 PM
Oh come on, it was talked about when the Zune was still in development that a long line of gadgets would appear. Apple have hardly invented the phone, if you say MS are copying then the same must be said for Apple.

However we all know it will crash 3 times when making a call, and as the Zune is hardly a runaway success I still think they will be playing catch up.

It's good when your competitors are always playing catch up.

Chaszmyr
Feb 1, 2007, 04:48 PM
I'd bet good money that Microsoft won't get a solid phone offering onto the market in time for Christmas. Sure, they could rebrand another company's device, like they did with Zune, but I don't think that would quality as a solid competitor to iPhone.

Frisco
Feb 1, 2007, 04:48 PM
I can see it now, instead of telling someone to call me, just tell them to "Zune Me."

czeluff
Feb 1, 2007, 04:49 PM
Ballmer is the biggest idiot in the world. Just last week, he screamed "$500 for a PHONE?!?!". I have two problems with this:

1. The full version of Vista costs $400....who would spend THAT much for an OS? Haha, that's a piece of SOFTWARE! No hardware included.

2. Their phone will probably cost about the same.

3. The phoen will probably require a M$ activation lol.

Pull your heads out, Microsoft!

cz

roland.g
Feb 1, 2007, 04:51 PM
Zune Phone. Another Zune product they can sell none of. Maybe it will come in Turquoise.

MacNtoss
Feb 1, 2007, 04:52 PM
Zune phone=stupid idea
I mean c'mon no matter how much they try it will never work, the iPhone set the bar so high for mobile phones its almost impossible for MiCroSoft to match it without copying it.
Apple is just 2 cool!:cool:

chubad
Feb 1, 2007, 04:56 PM
Let me get this straight. The execs are in initial concept meetings and they are going to have a Zune phone to market by November?
Yea right. :rolleyes:
The screen saver will be Ballmers crack monkey dance routine.:D

hulugu
Feb 1, 2007, 04:58 PM
So Microsoft will now begin competing directly with their OS licensees? That'll teach 'em to trust Microsoft.

Exactly, how is this going to line up with Microsoft's push for Windows-based PDA phones, including their partnership with Palm for the Treo 700. Considering the relative success of the Windows Mobile market, why would they sully that with the weak Zune brand.

Hey, Microsoft you don't have to be the big winner in every single market. Focus.

twoodcc
Feb 1, 2007, 04:59 PM
you have got be kidding me. what a copy cat. and i thought microsoft was bad when bill gates was the CEO.......i think they're getting worse :eek:

vitaboy
Feb 1, 2007, 04:59 PM
This is just standard operating procedure for Microsoft. They announce an initiative just for the FUD effect. This is pure FUD, nothing but. They do the same with every product in their offering, promising a pie-in-the-sky product that's just "around the corner" but in reality is 3-5 years from release.

We're to believe that a company that took 5 years to produce the Zune based on an existing hardware design it licensed from Toshiba can produce a brand-new smartphone from scratch in less than a year. Give me a break.

DTphonehome
Feb 1, 2007, 05:00 PM
Well, if it's anywhere near as successful as the Zune, then Apple doesn't have a thing to worry about.

elppa
Feb 1, 2007, 05:00 PM
Steve Balmer also said that the Windows Mobile strategy would be the one they will pursue. So that was obviously more lies to cover the cracks.

What next? A single OS stratergy?

I bet this thing will be great if it is out by the holidays.

rcs128
Feb 1, 2007, 05:03 PM
A phone by MS... great -- it will be a race to see which happens first: the call gets dropped or the OS crashes....

Maybe they can call it the "Roulette"

drumpat01
Feb 1, 2007, 05:03 PM
Let them try. The problem with the Zune is that you dont hear it called the Zune, its always called "Zune, M$ would be iPod killer." No one will ever see it as anything else besides M$ lame attempt at competing with the iPod.

The same will happen with a phone. No one will ever see this as anything besides "ZunePhone, M$ would be iPhone killer."

And oh yea, the Zune also fails because its crappy and no one wants to rent their music.

Stridder44
Feb 1, 2007, 05:07 PM
God forbid Microsoft focus on one area like oh say Operating Systems.

dscottbuch
Feb 1, 2007, 05:09 PM
This announcement is typical MSFT vapor marketing. They won't/can't do this in this time frame and they know it now but by announcing this they are trying to delay decisions by consumers. This is the worst type of non-productive marketing.

ro2nie
Feb 1, 2007, 05:10 PM
If you can't innovate, you just imitate. But it will never be as good as the original.

LOL... Yesterday I found another product that MS copied... It's called Ms Virtual Earth (http://www.microsoft.com/virtualearth/default.mspx), being the copy of Google Earth

Kirkmedia
Feb 1, 2007, 05:11 PM
The Zune phone will undoubtly sync with Outlook. That's a plus for them.

mrthieme
Feb 1, 2007, 05:14 PM
My first reaction
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRLRjKCGHek

nimno
Feb 1, 2007, 05:15 PM
This is just standard operating procedure for Microsoft. They announce an initiative just for the FUD effect. This is pure FUD, nothing but. They do the same with every product in their offering, promising a pie-in-the-sky product that's just "around the corner" but in reality is 3-5 years from release.

We're to believe that a company that took 5 years to produce the Zune based on an existing hardware design it licensed from Toshiba can produce a brand-new smartphone from scratch in less than a year. Give me a break.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. The notion that, from a standing start on Feb 1, Microsoft could have a product of the complexity of a smart phone ready this year strains the imagination. I think Microsoft would have to get through FCC approval for U.S. sales just like Apple is doing. Apple worked on iPhone for a long while. There's simply no way Microsoft could do all the things that need to be done in that short a time.

Apple releases iPod updates or new models on the average of every 6 - 8 weeks. Microsoft already said that it would be a year before there would be a new Zune model. And that's just the player - add a phone and do it months faster? No way.

IJ Reilly
Feb 1, 2007, 05:16 PM
Exactly, how is this going to line up with Microsoft's push for Windows-based PDA phones, including their partnership with Palm for the Treo 700. Considering the relative success of the Windows Mobile market, why would they sully that with the weak Zune brand.

Hey, Microsoft you don't have to be the big winner in every single market. Focus.

Oh yes they do. Microsoft has proven many times that their biggest fear is seeing any of their competitors succeed at anything. They will spend billions on losing ventures just to prevent it.

Years ago, the CEO of AT&T remarked that Microsoft can be your closest partner and your worst enemy all at the same time.

rdowns
Feb 1, 2007, 05:16 PM
Welcome to the social.

SkyBell
Feb 1, 2007, 05:17 PM
This'll fail, at some point the public has to see that this is an iPhone ripoff... But then again, they DID buy Windows....:eek:

timswim78
Feb 1, 2007, 05:19 PM
This may be news to some. MS already has a 4.5% share of the smart phone market. Adding their music player line to it only makes sense. Will ever be as popular as the iPhone or the iPod? Most likely not.
http://www.windowsfordevices.com/news/NS5566717572.html

maverick18x
Feb 1, 2007, 05:23 PM
I'm thinking this insider got the date wrong. Maybe a target date of Christmas 2008 with a ship date of Christmas 2009, but not this year.

Apple announced that the iPhone -- a product they had in development for 2.5 years -- will not be out for another 6 months... there's no way Microsoft is going to design, develop, approve, manufacture, distibute, and market a phone before this christmas.

If this report is serious the only option MS has is to rebrand an existing device like they did with the Zune, but to an even greater degree.

surferfromuk
Feb 1, 2007, 05:27 PM
I'm trying to understand the decision process a consumer goes through these days ;

1: Buy something amazing and innovative - rewarding with my purchasing decision the company that is genuinely trying to push the boundaries of technology and still make it elegant and easy to use ie Apple

or

2: Buy something second rate, clunky and derivative - rewarding with my purchasing decision the company that clones, mimics and stifles the boundaries of technology offered by others and in doing so makes it awkward, complicated and unsatisfying ie M$

Are 95% of people wearing 'micro-goggles' - do they genuinely believe M$ products are the 'best' their money can buy anymore ?

xliver
Feb 1, 2007, 05:28 PM
That Bill Gates or some other MS monkey said they were not going to enter the cell phone market and had no interest in it just a few months ago.

I don't know if announcing this is a diversion but even if it is true (and they were either lying then or are lying now), and even if they could get it out in time, it will be the same defunct type of MS product. If they really are sitting down and talking about it - I honestly believe they will come out w/ it by the holidays.
I say that w/ confidence b/c MS puts no effort into and develops products that don't work and they accomplish it in a short amount of time (that is of course except for Vista - which took over five years to release and was still not ready).

dscottbuch
Feb 1, 2007, 05:29 PM
This may be news to some. MS already has a 4.5% share of the smart phone market. Adding their music player line to it only makes sense. Will ever be as popular as the iPhone or the iPod? Most likely not.
http://www.windowsfordevices.com/news/NS5566717572.html

I don't believe they have ANY % of the hardware market, which is what this would be, presumably.

This sure shows how realiable and believable Ballmers comments to be.

ModestPenguin
Feb 1, 2007, 05:32 PM
A phone by MS... great -- it will be a race to see which happens first: the call gets dropped or the OS crashes....

Maybe they can call it the "Roulette"


lol, you spin a roulette wheel to see what you get when you try to use it,

Red: Drops call

Black: OS Crash

00:works like windows ME...:D

MrCrowbar
Feb 1, 2007, 05:33 PM
Jeebus... just what the world needs. I bet it's gonna look great. :rolleyes:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/176/368241530_d4ecdba5aa_o.jpg

love it. Exactly what I had in mind. Even the video running there is appropriate.

sockdoggy
Feb 1, 2007, 05:34 PM
My first reaction
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRLRjKCGHek

Very amusing!

I can't believe how defensive those messages are on youtube.com. They all sound like M$ fanboys (which I've never encountered).

OhEsTen
Feb 1, 2007, 05:36 PM
Are 95% of people wearing 'micro-goggles' - do they genuinely believe M$ products are the 'best' their money can buy anymore ?

I think a lot of people don't care. I don't know if its the crap food we're fed these days, but so many people could care less about whether or not something they use or buy is actually "better" - as long as it's cheap and remotely convenient they buy it. How else can you explain Walmart's success.

Rocketman
Feb 1, 2007, 05:40 PM
Apple pre-announce:

1. FREE advertising on all news services for 2 weeks on a wall-to-wall basis.

2. 6 month so consumer mindshare and accustomization to the idea of a high pricepoint with huigh value-added features.

3. 6 month lower level FREE advertising on all news services on a not wall-to-wall basis, but as the background to anything Microsoft does, and they are releasing Vista, or Cisco does, and they are releasing VOIP consumer handsets in some micro-markets.

The value of #1 is hard to measure, but we can safely say several tens of millions of dollars.

The value of #2 is also hard to measure but it is succeeding because there has not been massive consumer blow-back to (Balmer notwithstanding) high prices. Quite the opposite there seems to be general acceptance of the idea. This indicates the 10 million unit estimate is at minimum, not impossible to imagine anymore.

The value of #3 is hard to measure, but we can safely say in the range of tens of millions of dollars.

This post shows one thing. Apple wins. It wins big.

The only chance to tarnish this thing is if Apple TV is some kind of bust.

Rocketman

nsbio
Feb 1, 2007, 05:42 PM
What they will do is to re-badge the iPhone (1st generation by that time), attach a brown, 1'' thick "goodie" to its backside to make it look "More substantial" (C), and preload Vista Mobile. Welcome to the "More substantial" (C). :D

thejadedmonkey
Feb 1, 2007, 05:42 PM
Hell, if it's sub $600 and has more than 8 gigs of memory, it's fair competition. Heck, I like the zune GUI better than the iPod, I just wish it had a scroll wheel and better PC side software and I'd get one.

Rocketman
Feb 1, 2007, 05:43 PM
I'm trying to understand the decision process a consumer goes through these days ;

1: Buy something amazing and innovative - rewarding with my purchasing decision the company that is genuinely trying to push the boundaries of technology and still make it elegant and easy to use ie Apple

or

2: Buy something second rate, clunky and derivative - rewarding with my purchasing decision the company that clones, mimics and stifles the boundaries of technology offered by others and in doing so makes it awkward, complicated and unsatisfying ie M$

Are 95% of people wearing 'micro-goggles' - do they genuinely believe M$ products are the 'best' their money can buy anymore ?

Some products simply have lower price points and openly facilitate pirating (thus lowering usage costs). Those appeal to a wider cross-section of amoral folks.

Rocketman

TheBobcat
Feb 1, 2007, 05:44 PM
The problem with a Zune phone is that after you squirt on all your friends, your calls drop after 3 minutes unless you convert $40 a month into Microsoft Points and constantly validate your genuine Zune. I hope it has a "DEVELOPERS" ringtone!

That, and it'll only support Hotmail and MSN Messenger. And it'll require Vista.

And according to MonkeyMan it'll have a keyboard, since any self-respecting phone has to have a myriad of buttons and a keyboard.

Other than that, yeah, it'll be great.

andrew050703
Feb 1, 2007, 05:45 PM
Jeebus... just what the world needs. I bet it's gonna look great. :rolleyes:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/176/368241530_d4ecdba5aa_o.jpg

Don't diss microsoft like that - i saw the zune phone in development.

Here's a sneak preview:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38638000/jpg/_38638535_bigphone150.jpg

also comes in really cool colours, like ..... um, brown!

iPoodOverZune
Feb 1, 2007, 05:46 PM
O boy, only yesterday i posted that I am so looking for the brown zPhone and M$ santa is promising to deliver (or more accurately innovate by coping). :D

Hell I will have a fun time making fun of zune zombies. :)

gugy
Feb 1, 2007, 05:46 PM
good for Microsh•t.
Another product destiny to fail. Let them keep the good work!:rolleyes:

kuebby
Feb 1, 2007, 05:51 PM
Ballmer is the biggest idiot in the world. Just last week, he screamed "$500 for a PHONE?!?!". I have two problems with this:

1. The full version of Vista costs $400....who would spend THAT much for an OS? Haha, that's a piece of SOFTWARE! No hardware included.


cz

Actually the FULL Version of Vista Ultimate costs $670, that's more than a Mac Mini, how ridiculus is that? And how unfair is it that you have to pay a premium to gain full use out of your pc?

And I agree with whoever said that Microsoft should stop broadening their interests. If all they did was make an OS (Windows) maybe it would be worth using.

EagerDragon
Feb 1, 2007, 05:52 PM
Talk about a rush job!
Not even in development, yet they plan to release it before end of 2007?

Bring it on M$, Verizon is waiting for you.

iPoodOverZune
Feb 1, 2007, 05:55 PM
If you can't innovate, you just imitate. But it will never be as good as the original.

LOL... Yesterday I found another product that MS copied... It's called Ms Virtual Earth (http://www.microsoft.com/virtualearth/default.mspx), being the copy of Google Earth

A little correction: "If you can't innovate, you MUST imitate"...:)

hug
Feb 1, 2007, 05:58 PM
I pulled this line out of the article.

"That gives Microsoft about nine months to get everything together, an entirely possible feat". Oh ya, like Vista. It took five years and they are going to bring a phone in nine months.

The biggest problem with the Zune is Microsoft hurried it to the market place. That's why it is such a dud. I just found out today about 50% of the Zune content can even be squirted. Squirted is Microsoft's term for transferring the content. The whole social thing. Because of DRM 50% of the content cannot be sent to someone, they have to download their own.

If they try and do a phone in nine months are they going to have a good product? They'll produce a horrible product to fill up our land fills. However, with their marketing power and customer base they can bring poor quality products to the market and then spend years enhancing them.

J Radical
Feb 1, 2007, 06:01 PM
err, this would be a pretty serious thread to iphone (and thus the entire ipod brand)


The Zune is a decent player and has attracted good reviews and interest from PC tech heads. It is also only their first attempt, MS showed with the xbox that they are willing to throw money at a market to establish themselves in the long term. They have also showed that they can develop hardware in a very short space of time regardless of cost.

The iPhone looks like an amazing piece of kit, but it has deal breaking flaws for many people:

No 3G (yet)
Only 4-8 GB storage
VERY expensive
Locked to one network

For a Zune phone to be a threat it wouldn't need to have all the amazing iPhone features, it could simply be an MP3/Video Player capable of making calls and sending e-mails with a 20-30 GB capacity and lower price.

Should they go the whole hog and make a PDA phone, they would be able to call upon all the experience they have in the mobile software business already.

Bitch all you want about idea stealing but you must never underestimate MS.

For me capacity and price are the biggest problem with the iPhone. Apple will surely have to broaden the iPhone line to appeal to average customers. An iPhone nano seems like an obvious move.

Clive At Five
Feb 1, 2007, 06:01 PM
HA!

Whoever buys a Zune Phone gets what they deserve.

-Clive

macidiot
Feb 1, 2007, 06:02 PM
Microsoft intends to develop and sell a Microsoft branded set top box, called MicrosoftTV, socks for the Zune, a microzune that attaches with a clip, a suite of multimedia software for Vista called msLife, and a Microsoft branded black turtleneck.

The turtleneck is expected in 3-5 years, as the Vista development team is working on it. It will, however, have exciting "next-gen" features, like a pocket.

EagerDragon
Feb 1, 2007, 06:02 PM
A phone by MS... great -- it will be a race to see which happens first: the call gets dropped or the OS crashes....

Maybe they can call it the "Roulette"

Screen saver is a blue screen.

hubfam
Feb 1, 2007, 06:05 PM
You all have it wrong! They will make it by christmas 2007. They will ship 500. It will cost $1250.00. They will spend 600 million to market it. Bill Gates will then go on the Today show and say it is the first phone ever!! He will make even more money, because dumb s**ts will still buy OS, because PCs are cheeper?

timswim78
Feb 1, 2007, 06:07 PM
I don't believe they have ANY % of the hardware market, which is what this would be, presumably.

I agree with you. I was just saying that MS has had a mobile phone OS for years, and it is pretty popular.

BillyShears
Feb 1, 2007, 06:10 PM
So Microsoft is building a smartphone using the "Zune OS"? Is that based on Windows mobile? I haven't paid attention to the handheld market in years, but it seems odd they wouldn't use Windows mobile.

mikeinternet
Feb 1, 2007, 06:13 PM
I'm thinking this insider got the date wrong. Maybe a target date of Christmas 2008 with a ship date of Christmas 2009, but not this year.

Apple announced that the iPhone -- a product they had in development for 2.5 years -- will not be out for another 6 months... there's no way Microsoft is going to design, develop, approve, manufacture, distibute, and market a phone before this christmas.

If this report is serious the only option MS has is to rebrand an existing device like they did with the Zune, but to an even greater degree.

MS can handle the faster turn around since that dont have to think up new features.

surferfromuk
Feb 1, 2007, 06:13 PM
The famous Pirates of Silicon Valley clip..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im589uTchKs

now....Can anyone tell me that ANYTHING has changed in the modus operandi of M$?

astaples
Feb 1, 2007, 06:15 PM
So Microsoft is building a smartphone using the "Zune OS"? Is that based on Windows mobile? I haven't paid attention to the handheld market in years, but it seems odd they wouldn't use Windows mobile.

It's not that odd - WM5 is a piece of garbage. I've got a so-called "smart" phone and the MS PDA OS is a terrible memory pig that offers very little additional functionality on its own (like a 3-pound Swiss Army knife that has only a broken corkscrew and a dull blade).

MS != MicroSoft
MS == Mediocrity & Shaftiness

PS. Microsoft, how about you support all the stuff I have legitimately purchased from you and doesn't work instead of asking me to buy more stuff that probably won't work. Thanks to you (and not PC manufacturers) I switched to Apple a year ago and haven't looked back... the one favor you've done for me since I've been a PAYING customer for the past 15+ years. :apple:

ChrisA
Feb 1, 2007, 06:16 PM
.....as long as it's cheap and remotely convenient they buy it. How else can you explain Walmart's success.

No, "cheap" in unimportant to most people. what matters more is the amount of the monthly payments. For example: They ask "What does this phone cost?" Answer: "$40 per month for two years." So they sign up not even thinking they are spending about a $1K. Cheap? Not really, not compared to the dimes we used to put in pay phones.

iJawn108
Feb 1, 2007, 06:18 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5oGaZIKYvo

"How do you compete with that?" look at his face, so odd they are deciding to do this. Will the zune have a keyboard? lol ****in ballmer.

iPoodOverZune
Feb 1, 2007, 06:20 PM
In future, parents can punish their kids by giving them zPhone! so it crashes, freezes, drop calls, viruses,....... and plainly zucks and kids will hate it and therefore wont yap too much on their phones. Hence save money for parents :D

sam10685
Feb 1, 2007, 06:20 PM
"not in development yet"... "to be released this holiday"...? wow. did steve jobs say he's been excited about the iPhone for 2 and a half years? that would mean it's been in development for atlest 2 years.

apfhex
Feb 1, 2007, 06:28 PM
Actually the FULL Version of Vista Ultimate costs $670, that's more than a Mac Mini, how ridiculus is that?
WTF are you talking about? The full retail Vista Ultimate costs $399.99 (USD).

It's no surprise they want to make a Zune phone (whassit called, "Zone"? :rolleyes: ), but a launch by this winter? And they don't even have anything in development? Sure......

sachamun
Feb 1, 2007, 06:30 PM
As I am a practicing psychic, I will tell you all what I see.......

I see a touch screen interface and a transparent scrolling feature.

It's hazy but I also see a music store interface.

I agree, but the scrolling will be controlled by a manual slider on the side of the turd phone.

e12a
Feb 1, 2007, 06:31 PM
I for one, welcome new competition in the world of MP3 smartphones.

If the Zune comes out cheaper, you know Apple will be forced to reduce their prices.

kuebby
Feb 1, 2007, 06:33 PM
My bad, I could have sworn I saw that price this weekend in one of the Sunday ads (CompUSA maybe?). I just didn't bother to look up the price again, either way $400 is still really expensive.

pale9
Feb 1, 2007, 06:53 PM
zune, prune, whats the difference....

dschertz
Feb 1, 2007, 06:56 PM
Ha ha ha. Are you kidding me? Gates is such a fricking looser!

Tell him to quit reinventing the wheel!

Maccus Aurelius
Feb 1, 2007, 07:01 PM
err, this would be a pretty serious thread to iphone (and thus the entire ipod brand)


The Zune is a decent player and has attracted good reviews and interest from PC tech heads. It is also only their first attempt, MS showed with the xbox that they are willing to throw money at a market to establish themselves in the long term. They have also showed that they can develop hardware in a very short space of time regardless of cost.

The iPhone looks like an amazing piece of kit, but it has deal breaking flaws for many people:

No 3G (yet)
Only 4-8 GB storage
VERY expensive
Locked to one network

For a Zune phone to be a threat it wouldn't need to have all the amazing iPhone features, it could simply be an MP3/Video Player capable of making calls and sending e-mails with a 20-30 GB capacity and lower price.

Should they go the whole hog and make a PDA phone, they would be able to call upon all the experience they have in the mobile software business already.

Bitch all you want about idea stealing but you must never underestimate MS.

For me capacity and price are the biggest problem with the iPhone. Apple will surely have to broaden the iPhone line to appeal to average customers. An iPhone nano seems like an obvious move.


How much storage do MOST phones in general have? Even some of the more expensive ones don't carry much over 1-2GB without the aid of a separate flash card. Why would anyone want an HDD-based phone? The 1.8" HDD would seriously add heft to the phone, not to mention be a battery pig. 8GB is a very generous offering for a phone, and being flash based saves lots more juice.

Anyway, MS will just be following the same pattern that it's started with the Zune, first establish a steady relationship with the third-party, then suddenly come out with your own product to turn around and bite them in the ass, just like they did to PlayforSure with their DRM. Typical.

gd12345
Feb 1, 2007, 07:03 PM
it strikes me as odd how anti-competitive so many users are. what's the problem with a company introducing a competing product? who knows, it may even pressure apple to improve on its award-winning iPhone design. weren't we the ones screaming about anti-competitive behavior on the part of microsoft not too long ago?

Sabenth
Feb 1, 2007, 07:07 PM
Havent had the time to read all the responding posts to this. but i am taking a stab in the dark its gonna be some time before europe sees this .because we dont even have zune 1.0 yet let alone the idea of having a zune Phone

MacTheSpoon
Feb 1, 2007, 07:29 PM
After hearing this, like most others I at first figured Microsoft would probably rip off Apple's interface with this Zune phone. But on second thought, I doubt that a Zune phone will be very different than the other smart phones already out there. It's going to run Windows Mobile, just like they do, that's why Ballmer was fiercely talking up Windows Mobile and pooh-poohing the iPhone the other day. It has to run Windows, otherwise Microsoft would be running a marketing campaign against their own product in use by other phone manufactuers, and I couldn't see them doing that.

That means it won't be anything special; probably it'll be able to share music files wirelessly with Zune music players, and that'll be its only differentiating characteristic from all the other Windows smart phones already out there. And we've seen just how being able to share songs for 3 plays is driving Zune sales.:rolleyes:

Oh, and my vote for most likely snazzy Zune Phone (Zhone?) colors - pale yellow, brown, and navy blue. :)

fall3n
Feb 1, 2007, 07:42 PM
The Zune phone is reportedly not even in development yet, but is expected to be a "smartphone" and run a modified version of the current Zune interface/operating system. The target launch date, however, is said to as soon as holiday 2007.

Thus the reason why nothing from Microsoft ever works...

freediverdude
Feb 1, 2007, 07:47 PM
Heard during a Zunephone call......."Zunephone has encountered a problem and must hang up. We apologize for any inconvenience. Press "send" to send an error report to Microsoft." *Zunephone owner presses "send"* Coming out of speaker- "You are not connected to the internet. Please dial a valid number, or press "connect" to search for a wi-fi signal." *Zunephone owner presses "connect"* Coming out of speaker- "There is a new version of the "connect" software available. Please press "ok" to download and install the update." * Zunephone owner presses "ok"* Coming out of speaker- "You are not connected to the internet. Please dial a valid number, or press "connect" to search for a wi-fi signal." *Zunephone owner presses "connect"* Coming out of speaker- "Your version of Zunephone is not genuine. Please press "ok" to connect to Microsoft and purchase a valid Zunephone license." *Zunephone owner drops Zunephone in toilet and presses "flush"*

iPoodOverZune
Feb 1, 2007, 07:51 PM
Heard during a Zunephone call......."Zunephone has encountered a problem and must hang up. We apologize for any inconvenience. Press "send" to send an error report to Microsoft." *Zunephone owner presses "send"* Coming out of speaker- "You are not connected to the internet. Please dial a valid number, or press "connect" to search for a wi-fi signal." *Zunephone owner presses "connect"* Coming out of speaker- "There is a new version of the "connect" software available. Please press "ok" to download and install the update." * Zunephone owner presses "ok"* Coming out of speaker- "You are not connected to the internet. Please dial a valid number, or press "connect" to search for a wi-fi signal." *Zunephone owner presses "connect"* Coming out of speaker- "Your version of Zunephone is not genuine. Please press "ok" to connect to Microsoft and purchase a valid Zunephone license." *Zunephone owner drops Zunephone in toilet and presses "flush"*

LOL! That was awesome narrative :D

MrCrowbar
Feb 1, 2007, 07:54 PM
*Zunephone owner drops Zunephone in toilet and presses "flush"*

I always wondered why the zune comes in brown. That way you feel more comfortable when pressing "flush" :P

I want one of the 100 pink ones just to flush it :-)

seashellz2
Feb 1, 2007, 07:55 PM
Whats a 'Zune' ??

sys0p
Feb 1, 2007, 08:26 PM
I am really looking forward! Could be that it will

a) show again how bad they copy
b) make look the iPhone even better
c) will put more competition into the market - better for all of us ! :)

Exxxxciting ! :)

SheriffParker
Feb 1, 2007, 08:33 PM
The zune phone is going to suck.

SpaceJello
Feb 1, 2007, 08:34 PM
This is getting ridiculous.

Zune phone?! I mean, we all saw that one coming (don't kid outselves, we KNEW they would copy). But really, if it is a smartphone, what is MS really doing? Going against its partners like Moto, Palm, Samsung, LG and all those awlful "smartphones".

I really wish MS makes a Zune phone and really go crash and burn:
- first by succeeding in moderate sales
- second in pissing off all its smartphone partners and make them go the way of Nokia and SE for their Symbian OS
- third, because of the lack of Windoze smartphone makers, the fall of the MS empire!

maxrobertson
Feb 1, 2007, 08:42 PM
At first I was wondering how they heck they were going to manage to push out a phone that isn't even in development yet by the holiday season of this year. Then I realized, they're probably going to do the Zune thing and repackage someone else's phone, add a few useless features and barely make any effort on the software, since it can always be updated later.

God, I hate Microsoft.

monke
Feb 1, 2007, 08:45 PM
67351

Don't tell me you were expecting any different. :D

nsbio
Feb 1, 2007, 08:48 PM
The zune phone is going to suck.
Bingo - the smallest, the suckiest vacuum cleaner !

brepublican
Feb 1, 2007, 08:50 PM
*Yawn* Wake me up when something innovative and exciting happens

p0intblank
Feb 1, 2007, 08:56 PM
Here we go again...

Stella
Feb 1, 2007, 09:03 PM
Microsoft have got already two smartphone OSes ( windows mobile and smartphone ) - they really want a third!???

Still, they won't over take Symbian... not for a long time yet.

rhpixelfreak
Feb 1, 2007, 09:08 PM
Let's just hope that this attempt communicates microsoft's lack of originality to the people who still respect them.

imacdaddy
Feb 1, 2007, 09:19 PM
...and they will call it the Pune

mrkramer
Feb 1, 2007, 09:25 PM
Who cares about a Zune phone, it's obvious from the Zune's sales that most people don't care about it so why would they care about a Zune phone.

ChampagneBob
Feb 1, 2007, 09:35 PM
By the time ZunePhone hits the market, iPhone will be adding new models with even more features, includeing 3D. Apple will move fast, just as they did with iPod, and as volume ramps up they will lower the price of the original iPhone and replace it with better features, larger memory, brighter/larger screens, better resolutions, etc.

The game is over before its even started. Think of 1st Quarter Christmas sales (10 million easy), along with upgaded iPods with touch sensitive screens out by July and ramped up for the Christmas Quarter.

What else is in Steve's basket of tricks for the second half of the year?

Keep an eye on the Apple chart for a basing period and a good entry point for long term growth. OS 10.5 release probably will signal the next leg up for AAPL.;) ;) ;)

cuestakid
Feb 1, 2007, 09:45 PM
I think that not only will the phone stink but whatever touch screen capabilities it has will likely get some paperwork fed exed to Redmond

Reverend Wally
Feb 1, 2007, 10:01 PM
The ....

http://att.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=67351&d=1170384273

ePhune

:rolleyes:

Analog Kid
Feb 1, 2007, 10:15 PM
I dunno... I look at the iPod and think-- yeah, I could hold that to my ear and use it as a phone. I look at the Zune and think "ouch!".

I call it irrelevant. It won't make any more of a difference in the market than any other Windows Mobile phone. The Zune branding is just a way of keeping the Xbox team busy until they have another console to design.

God forbid Microsoft focus on one area like oh say Operating Systems.
Nope. Bad idea... First rule of business: focus on your core competence.

This is just standard operating procedure for Microsoft. They announce an initiative just for the FUD effect. This is pure FUD, nothing but. They do the same with every product in their offering, promising a pie-in-the-sky product that's just "around the corner" but in reality is 3-5 years from release.

My thoughts exactly. MS does this habitually. The announce anything they can think of in hopes that it will scare people out of the market space, or undercut a competitor because the press or investors think the 800lb gorilla will be in the ring a few months down the road.

That's why Vista shed so many features-- MS didn't care whether they ended up in the product or not, they just needed to announce them for a few months.

That's not going to work here though-- MS is not the dominant player and Zune just proved MS is impotent against iPod. Announcing a Zune phone looks weak.
err, this would be a pretty serious thread to iphone (and thus the entire ipod brand)

The Zune is a decent player and has attracted good reviews and interest from PC tech heads.
Anybody else reading stories about MS astroturfing? When was the Zune released?
I agree with you. I was just saying that MS has had a mobile phone OS for years, and it is pretty popular.

So Microsoft is building a smartphone using the "Zune OS"? Is that based on Windows mobile? I haven't paid attention to the handheld market in years, but it seems odd they wouldn't use Windows mobile.
Windows mobile sucks, along with the whole CE product line. It's the hardest embedded OS I've ever had to work with. It looks intentionally designed to test how many contortions a company is willing to go through to put the MS logo on their product.

noservice2001
Feb 1, 2007, 10:19 PM
omg... i'm almost embarassed to say i'm living in washington....

powermac_daddy
Feb 1, 2007, 10:43 PM
competition is good. i would like to see more companies jump in.

omg... i'm almost embarassed to say i'm living in washington....

embarassed because of MS. get a life dude. get over it.

aaronbrethorst
Feb 1, 2007, 11:08 PM
Anybody else reading stories about MS astroturfing? When was the Zune released?


I never astroturf. I'm pretty open about working for Microsoft. The Zune came out last November. In fact, Wikipedia pegs the release date (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zune) as being November 14, 2006.


Windows mobile sucks, along with the whole CE product line. It's the hardest embedded OS I've ever had to work with. It looks intentionally designed to test how many contortions a company is willing to go through to put the MS logo on their product.

Really? What have you had to do with it? I love hacking code on my Dash, since I get to work with C# in Visual Studio 2005 (bias alert: I work on Visual Studio). I've tried my hand at developing Palm software once or twice, and it never seemed as easy. I'd love to hear what other embedded operating systems you've worked with. Is it just an issue of logo certification? You should complain to the Windows Mobile team (http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/), if that's the case.

Cheers,
Aaron

Revlimit Punk
Feb 1, 2007, 11:54 PM
Why so many negative replies?

If anything, this "new" product will bring some competition to the iPhone, which, for us consumers is a good thing. This could lead to Apple dropping the iPhone price zuner (haha ok, bad pun).

And since when making a phone + mp3 player is copying somebody else hard work? I say we'll see it when it comes out and then if it looks like a carbon copy of the iPhone, I will be happy to hear people bashing microsoft (it's likely I'll be one of those people).

But what if microsoft brings to us a similar device, but with the features that people have been asking to be included in the iPhone (like third party apps, gps routing, higher res screen...) at roughly the same price of the iPhone?

In that case, either the price of the iPhone goes down or the new iPhone gets a ton of new features for the same price! It's a win-win situation for us consumers!

Competition is good, people. Even if I hate microsoft, I can't wait for them to bring their iPhone clone to the party.

rhpixelfreak
Feb 1, 2007, 11:57 PM
I hate those "competition is good" comments... I can't disagree but it's not just about that. It's about mac pride and about Apple deserving success over it's competitors, especially Microsoft.
It's about Microsoft sucking and being so powerful despite their lack of creativity, originality, innovation and um... coolness
It's also about cell phones sucking because they always should have aimed at doing something like the iPhone... I guess they all are now.

So competition is good because it brought the iPhone, but that's not the point.

jordo
Feb 2, 2007, 12:04 AM
And the award for the most unimaginative and obsolete company of 2007 goes to… Microsoft Corporation.

jhedges3
Feb 2, 2007, 12:23 AM
I feel like I’m in the minority of us who thinks differently about this. I don’t, for example, understand the negative votes. Are you voting negative because you want to say MS sucks? Well, isn’t it funny that so many of you follow that novel idea by pointing out that they’re copying? You’re not only relaying something that’s clichéd, which all of us already know, and that is to some extent only partially true. But you’re also knowingly or unknowingly copying everyone else who already posted the same exact thing. Copier.

Instead of voting negative or seconding everyone else by saying that a device you know nothing about will suck, why not wish them well? Why not hope that whatever it is they release, if they release something, is a fantastic device? Do you really believe that Apple is better off without pressure from anyone else? Do you believe their innovations to be as simple gifts; little bit of corporate altruism, development to please people like us.

Copy. We don’t know yet. Maybe they’ll release something exactly the same. But even if they did copy in that sense so what. If copying is the sincerest form of flattery why aren’t you all preparing yourselves for a little pride fest, a bit of gloating and smiling at yourselves in mirrors? Or is that what we’re already doing and what we’d do regardless of what MS does. Plus what should MS do instead, not enter a market just cause someone else has almost already done so, lest they be marked as copiers. You copier, no you’re the copier, no you are.

Digital Skunk
Feb 2, 2007, 12:32 AM
If they unlock it or make it for Sprint.... I might just have to get it :eek: . I might just pick up a Dell PC with Windows Vista on it to run. And about 4 GB of ram and a hitachi 1TB drive. I am selling my PowerMac and MacBook Pro and switching to Windows if I can't have an iPhone. :mad:

Nevermind... i will just get a Treo or something...

Supa_Fly
Feb 2, 2007, 12:37 AM
Man analysts these days lol.

I think they got it ALL wrong.

Microsoft will NOT make a pocket PC phone or a smartphone hardware themselves. Costs too much and their favorite darling HTC purchases licenses like CRAZY! Microsoft will make more money off of HTC then them doing it themselves.

Case in point. There was as long rumored even spy photos of a Music Centric Pocket PC-PE (Phone Ediiton) device that was supposed to debut BEFORE hte TyTn or what Cingular calls the 8525!

Take look at news archives of Modaco or smartphonethoughts.

Trust me on this - it'll be an HTC device.

Rodimus Prime
Feb 2, 2007, 12:40 AM
you have got be kidding me. what a copy cat. and i thought microsoft was bad when bill gates was the CEO.......i think they're getting worse :eek:

You might want to re read the beginning of it. The Zune was just the first step of a long list of products. At most the apple iPhone only caused them to accelerate there plan to bring out the Zune phone but it is a safe bet that it had been in the pipeline from the beginning.

[Despite obvious comparisons to Apple's iPhone initiative, the original Zune had been expected (http://www.macrumors.com/2006/07/11/microsoft-argo-ipod-killer/) to be a long term effort and only the beginning of a line of digital products.

But well the chances of people believe that are well slim to none here. Just because M$ is starting making there own DOES NOT mean they are just coping it. Just means apple got it first. Beside it would be stupid not to make there own phone. They made the mistake once when the iPod came out and Apple corned the market and now unseating the iPod is going to be really hard for any one. They are moving in at the beginning of the expansion which is the smart thing to do.

But what is the point everyone only thinks copy cat and could not possible believe that it was already planned.

elskeptico
Feb 2, 2007, 01:05 AM
Check it out: http://youtube.com/watch?v=KNPAtGQsxoI

Shoeguy
Feb 2, 2007, 01:39 AM
Remember when Microsoft could kill another company by just suggesting that they were thinking of working on a competing product? Now everybody just giggles.

Bonte
Feb 2, 2007, 01:47 AM
I never astroturf. I'm pretty open about working for Microsoft. The Zune came out last November. In fact, Wikipedia pegs the release date (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zune) as being November 14, 2006.



Really? What have you had to do with it? I love hacking code on my Dash, since I get to work with C# in Visual Studio 2005 (bias alert: I work on Visual Studio). I've tried my hand at developing Palm software once or twice, and it never seemed as easy. I'd love to hear what other embedded operating systems you've worked with. Is it just an issue of logo certification? You should complain to the Windows Mobile team (http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/), if that's the case.

Cheers,
Aaron

I do agree MS is better at pleasing the developer in short term (Vista seems great for them) but its not long term oriented, lots of XP apps don't work on Vista (even XP certified) and windowsmobile may be the best to hack and program for but its being dumped now, ha-ha. Windows based products are easier to program for but as a direct result less secure and have a worse enduser experience.

Apple is very careful to introduce something new because pulling the plug on something is bad karma even for a simple feature and MS is known for quitting projects when they don't meet expectations, its simply bad management.

Evangelion
Feb 2, 2007, 01:56 AM
M$ just loves to copy apple. Their OS, their Zune and now a smartphone.

You mean like Apple copied Nokia (or any other phone-company), when they combined a music-player with a cell-phone?

lorien
Feb 2, 2007, 02:12 AM
OOOOOO, this has made my day! Finally a brown phone to match my brown zune, to match my ....uh.... dog

Rod Rod
Feb 2, 2007, 02:21 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)
Many have commented that Apple's early iPhone announcement has given competitors a 6-month lead time to market.

The FCC approval process takes about three months. Steve Jobs said on January 9, that Apple preferred to announce its iPhone rather than leave it to the FCC. When a mobile phone is submitted for FCC approval, the filing is public knowledge. That's how sites like phonescoop.com get some of their information about upcoming devices.

So, the "many" who are paraphrased in that sentence are mistaken about how things work.

Also, the difference between January and June is 5 months, not 6. It becomes close to a 6-month difference if it's the end of June, but until July the difference is 5 months.

iMikeT
Feb 2, 2007, 03:14 AM
I can hear all the "Competition is good for Apple, it will only push them to produce something better" argument. I'll say that is nothing but a load of donkey poo. Come on, how can anyone else produce something better than the iPhone at the moment when Apple holds 200+ patents for the product that pratically prevents anyone else inventing an iPhone killer within the next few years?

Now regarding the same argument about the iPod... Sure, Apple has the technology readily available to upgrade the 5G iPod but will they, of course they will, when they feel that it is necessary.

Competition, pfft!

stephenli
Feb 2, 2007, 03:15 AM
The Zune phone is reportedly not even in development yet, but is expected to be a "smartphone" and run a modified version of the current Zune interface/operating system. The target launch date, however, is said to as soon as holiday 2007.

Hay, did anyone remembe the "target launch date" of Longh.....oops no, Vista?

well, M$ put everything in, allow you to open office files, sync with outlook, use IE, and the most important, allow 3rd party to make applications...
or perhaps, sync with xbox360...
these are functions that :apple: iPhone won't have - though I would never want to use it :rolleyes:

doogle
Feb 2, 2007, 04:21 AM
It's been leaked from the boardroom, the Zune phone will officially be called the...


Phune

SeaFox
Feb 2, 2007, 04:29 AM
Here's a sneak preview:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38638000/jpg/_38638535_bigphone150.jpg

also comes in really cool colours, like ..... um, brown!

Why would you want to look like you're speaking into a turd?

Oh well. I'm sure there will be a way to change the exterior to prevent that.








Like hiding the Microsoft logo with a little sticker. :D

needthephone
Feb 2, 2007, 04:42 AM
If the Zune phone isn't in development but will be out by Holiday 2007 then its going to be another half arsed product liek Zune. Base on an existing phone maybe the LG Pradia but nothing innovative. It will be, like the Zune, crap.

Apple have the initiative, everyone else is playing catch up.

I really don't have any aligience to apple but I applaud the bloke who has a go and is innovative.

Evangelion
Feb 2, 2007, 04:44 AM
I'm pretty darn disappointed by the level of "discussion" going on in this thread. Most comments are just useless "OMG, Microsoft is copying Apple!"-drivel (nevermind the fact that we have had phones, mp3-players and combination of the two long before iPhone, so Apple is guilty of copying as well). Where is the relevant and intelligent discussion about this? Closest thing we have had is the "If it does as well as Zune, Apple has nothing to worry about". And speaking of that: brushing the Zune off like that is dumb. Complacency, look it up in your dictionary.

doogle
Feb 2, 2007, 04:48 AM
I'm pretty darn disappointed by the level of "discussion" going on in this thread. Most comments are just useless "OGM, Microsoft is copying Apple!"-drivel (nevermind the fact that we have had phones, mp3-players and combination of the two long before iPhone, so Apple is guilty of copying as well). Where is the relevant and intelligent discussion about this? Closest thing we have had is the "If it does as well as Zune, Apple has nothing to worry about". And speaking of that: brushing the Zune off like that is dumb. Complacency, look it up in your dictionary.

'phune'

whooleytoo
Feb 2, 2007, 05:01 AM
Let me get this straight. The execs are in initial concept meetings and they are going to have a Zune phone to market by November?
Yea right. :rolleyes:


Now that Vista has been released, the Zune guys have obviously borrowed their calendar. "Late this year" = 2009.

surferfromuk
Feb 2, 2007, 05:18 AM
ok..a balanced and fair appraisal of M$ reactions to the Iphone (and add to that any innovation from a Steve Jobs helmed Apple in the last 20 years if you like!)

1: Competition. Yes, competition is vital. It is good and it is the wonderful thing about a fair and open marketplace.

However, when your main rival has begun operating at the level of a far eastern sweat shop and churning out soulless reactive products you no longer have competition - you have a form of piracy in the oldest term of the word. Ships on the high sea and all that.

However, this is actually not the problem - Steve Jobs can prosper from this, Apple will become resolute and strong but it's the uninformed consumer that's getting the big shaft. 'mom and pop' who don't know any better and get caught up in the micro-lies and go and lay out hard earned money on a product they believe is 'cheaper' and 'better' only to find they can't use it or it just blows their brains trying to find the 'receive calls' checkbox which is defaulted to off and buried ten layers deep in some subterranean preferences. This is what really annoys me. If M$ made products as amazing and as innovative as Apple I'd be thrilled - I genuinely would!!. Then we'd really have a fight on our hands and we'd get some amazing products.

I have always felt that the world lost something when Windows rose to take the 95%. They got served 'second best' - maybe they got what they 'chose' I don't know - but I wish dearly for the majority to see they can really enjoy computing and that it can really change the world, which is Steve's vision. Bill's it would appear is simply to 'win at all costs' - subtly different.

Computers are in their infancy - they really are and the future of mankind is getting bogged down in mega-crap - do we 'compute' with honor and dignity with elegant and visionary products or do we 'compute' like snakes in the mud lying and stealing and sending in ninjas and stuff to shutdown the competition - bullying ordinary folks to win the market to win - to just win!

we simply can't let 'the brat' become 'the man'...Can we:??? I thought the civilized world didn't tolerate bullies ? or was I wrong ?

BoyBach
Feb 2, 2007, 05:31 AM
I think the 2007 release date might be a bit optimistic, unless they just 'modify' an existing product and brand it as a Microsoft phone. But I think this is unlikely after the failure of the Zune.

However, I think Microsofts real goal for 2007 is to release Zune version 2.0. I imagine this will be massive improvement over the original (designed by an accountant, now 'retired' by Microsoft at the age of 43), now that Mr Xbox, J Allard, is taking charge.(ARS Technica story (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070201-8754.html))

So, a vastly improved Zune player for Christmas 2007: yes.

Zune Phone: probably not.

fixyourthinking
Feb 2, 2007, 05:35 AM
1) The Zunicator will be a CDMA phone and we will find out that THIS IS THE REAL REASON Verizon passed because Microsoft might have talked to Verizon about exclusive deals.

2) The unit will have an actual tactile keyboard to make the Dvorak/Scoble camps happy

3)The unit will run a Windows Mobile / Zune Hybrid and essentially be like any other high end mobile phone currently on the market except be limited just slightly more by means of DRM.

4) Phone calls will be limited to 3 minutes. (just as Zune beamed songs are limited to 3 days or 3 listens)



I have always felt that the world lost something when Windows rose to take the 95%. ?

Actually Microsoft has about 77% ... but point taken. (there's other OS's on people's and businesses desktops than Mac OS and Windows)


err, this would be a pretty serious thread to iphone (and thus the entire ipod brand)

The Zune is a decent player and has attracted good reviews and interest from PC tech heads.

What reviews in what forums ... the Zune forums? What tech heads? Scoble? Dvorak?

ErikCLDR
Feb 2, 2007, 05:50 AM
What OS will it run?

Vista Mobile Home
Vista Mobile Home Premium
Vista Mobile Business
Vista Mobile Ultimate


?????

Jo-Kun
Feb 2, 2007, 05:53 AM
M$ just loves to copy apple. Their OS, their Zune and now a smartphone.

like apple is the first one to build a phone with smart functions & mp3 player... they allso only improved what others have, they didn't invent something completly new... except for the interface off course (but not the first phone with touchscreen... first without stylus :p)

Nokia & others allready build phones with MP3 functions (not 4 or 8 GB I know) & radio... caldendar adress book email whatever.... apple just did the japanese thing: take something and improve it... Microsoft does the same, let them do it, let them build it cheaper without 2y subscription so Apple has to make their phone available to everyone ;-)

sometimes you people here act as if Apple is inventing everything and microsoft is the copydevil... its not allways the case LOL

allready from day 1 I was unimpressed by the iPhone, the only thing I would like is the iPhone light... no internet no iPod just a phone with a great interface :p

Analog Kid
Feb 2, 2007, 05:54 AM
Really? What have you had to do with it? I love hacking code on my Dash, since I get to work with C# in Visual Studio 2005 (bias alert: I work on Visual Studio). I've tried my hand at developing Palm software once or twice, and it never seemed as easy. I'd love to hear what other embedded operating systems you've worked with. Is it just an issue of logo certification? You should complain to the Windows Mobile team (http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/), if that's the case.

Cheers,
Aaron
I've worked on a line of products that started with homebrew OS, evolved through VxWorks and now we're running Windows CE/PocketPC on some stuff and a hybrid real-time Linux on others. Other product lines are less GUI oriented and run a variety of systems like µITRON and eCOS. I haven't tried Palm. I find the CE family to be bulky and slow compared to slimmer embedded OS's. It runs slower on a 250MHz processor than our older systems did on a 25MHz processor and the pretty shaded graphics aren't enough to explain it.

The fact that everything is held in RAM rather than being able to XIP from Flash is a nightmare for a product we're trying to make dependable-- I'm told it's because the damned registry has to be dynamic and newer versions are supposed to start addressing this but for now we have to run a third party application to mirror RAM to flash and restore after a crash. It's not stable enough on a battery operated system, probably because it's all RAM based, so changing batteries is a headache. The Bluetooth drivers took forever to stabilize. It's impossible to run anything close to real time because the interrupt latencies are high and inconsistent.

No code is portable if you write it against MFC which tries to encompass more than just the GUI layer, and C# just makes this problem worse (that's one of my complaints about Cocoa being Objective-C based).

The CE family tries to maintain its heritage as a desktop system which makes the user experience clunky in my opinion. All processes are kept running unless you get into the systems panel, hunt it down and kill it. It maintains the taskbar even though the screen is the size of a business card and doesn't have real-estate to spare.

I'm hoping the embedded OS X doesn't make the mistake of carrying all the weight of a desktop OS into a portable device. A portable device has very different needs in the OS layers and in the GUI. Scaling a desktop system down to the reduced hardware seems like the wrong way to go-- there's too much bloat to fight against. Newton recognized this, Palm recognized this. MS took 4 generations for CE to get some of the basics down, and it's still a behemoth.

The counter argument, of course, is that PocketPC is becoming dominant, and our marketing likes it because certain customers want to run third party apps targeted to it. Visual Studio is the key there, I think. It maintains the illusion that any Windows programmer can write applications for a handheld device and, for PDA type applications at least, that might almost be true.

Sorry to rant... I've got some pent up frustrations here and, well..., you asked...

Digitalclips
Feb 2, 2007, 06:18 AM
First Dell, next Microsoft ...

In the not too distant future ...

'Balmer ousted by board after Microsoft's sales plummet. Gates comes out of retirement to take over the helm of the sinking ship ... Gates stated he has a better track record of knowing what things at Apple to copy' ...

J Radical
Feb 2, 2007, 06:23 AM
Actually Microsoft has about 77% ... but point taken. (there's other OS's on people's and businesses desktops than Mac OS and Windows)



What reviews in what forums ... the Zune forums? What tech heads? Scoble? Dvorak?

http://reviews.cnet.com/Zune_30GB_black/4505-6490_7-32068976.html

And the impressions I've read from other forums I'm a member of.

The discussion on this topic has been infantile.

There are other good mp3 players out there which are not ipods- Zune is MS's first step into a new market, like the xbox they developed the product quickly and are willing to take a big hit in the pocket to see it succeed.

Apple has been successful because it hasn't stood still in the mp3 market, it makes as much sense for MS to get into the smart phone business as it does for apple.

A price drop and or an iPhone nano would be the best response to the new zune brand. And where the hell is the full video ipod to sort out the zune in the video mp3 market?

ezekielrage_99
Feb 2, 2007, 06:30 AM
Unlike an STI do you think if we ignore the Zune it will go away :confused:

Digitalclips
Feb 2, 2007, 06:35 AM
Unlike an STI do you think if we ignore the Zune it will go away :confused:

Let me think ... if everyone ignored Zune would it go away? That's a hard one. I guess if MS staff had to buy one a day they might keep going ... lol Just kidding. The market will decide as always. Things can go away if they don't sell. TWA went away, PANAM went away, one day MS will go away. Can but hope :)

Stella
Feb 2, 2007, 06:50 AM
Any phone from microsoft may not contain the fatal flaws of the iPhone:

- open platform ( microsoft do not close their platforms to third party development )
- cost ( SIM locked - even though you've paid full price )

Microsoft could very well out do the iPhone - sure it may not have the interface but if they don't do the exclusivity like Apple did - that gives consumers the freedom to pick and choose the carriers.

windows mobile ( zune is based on that ? ) is more mature than the OS Mobile ( windows mobile has been around for years, mobile OSX - never been used in the wild ) and therefore potentially less bugs / problems.

However, both Apple and microsoft have to compete against other cell phones, i.e., Nokia - and that will be very, very tough.

I wish people would cut the 'microsoft are copying Apple'. Yea right - as if Apple never copy anyone...

mrthieme
Feb 2, 2007, 06:53 AM
Microsoft - "We have a plan to rebadge a phone and make it suck in a whole new way, are you in?

Verizon - "Most definitely, we'll do our best to make it suck even more than you ever dreamed possible!

MS - " We want users to be able to squirt viruses and adware to all their friends, what do you think?"

V - " It's like you were reading our minds, we could charge 25 cents for every squirt."

MS - " We like the way you think"

Digitalclips
Feb 2, 2007, 07:05 AM
Microsoft - "We have a plan to rebadge a phone and make it suck in a whole new way, are you in?

Verizon - "Most definitely, we'll do our best to make it suck even more than you ever dreamed possible!

MS - " We want users to be able to squirt viruses and adware to all their friends, what do you think?"

V - " It's like you were reading our minds, we could charge 25 cents for every squirt."

MS - " We like the way you think"

lol right on! I suggest all the MS defenders are made to buy one and a Zune and not be allowed any Apple hardware for a year. Why are they even in this forum anyway... ? Oh, I know a balanced opinion. ;)

Uragon
Feb 2, 2007, 07:07 AM
Let me get this straight. The execs are in initial concept meetings and they are going to have a Zune phone to market by November?
Yea right. :rolleyes:
The screen saver will be Ballmers crack monkey dance routine.:D

It's possible they will ask a mobile phone maker and to sell it under a re-branded zune phone. And LOL to the screen saver...

fixyourthinking
Feb 2, 2007, 07:45 AM
http://reviews.cnet.com/Zune_30GB_black/4505-6490_7-32068976.html

And the impressions I've read from other forums I'm a member of.

This is a somewhat bias review in myopinion and most forums/reviews I have seen (not necessarily Apple bias) call the Zune the most lame competitor wannabe iPod rival yet. Sales also indicate acceptance and are a kind of consumer review. I'm glad you like yours though.

The discussion on this topic has been infantile.

And the discussion has also been very bias in favor of the Zune - Microsoft has admitted to hiring evangelists and bribing reviewers. I agree that some Apple fanboys pile it on a little thick - but for ther most part it's merited

There are other good mp3 players out there which are not ipods ...

Of course there are, but none match the software, hardware, accessory experience that the iPod has.

Apple has been successful because it hasn't stood still in the mp3 market...

Actually this is where you might be off base. The reason the iPod is successful is because it has remained the same. The iPod isn't revolutionary (now) ... it has continued to be simplistically and functionally evolutionary. Other players that add features and constantly change their look can't compete on visual recognition and simplicity

A price drop and or an iPhone nano would be the best response to the new zune brand. And where the hell is the full video ipod to sort out the zune in the video mp3 market?

Are you sure you're not just a fanboy? It's okay if you are. To respond, I don't Apple evens blinks at news about Microsoft doing anything to compete with the iPod.

And by the way ... Microsoft had the opportunity with the Xbox 360 to steal a market - instead they waited ... the Wii is the game in town and I imagine it will eventually put Microsoft back into 3rd, maybe even 4th place.

ricebag
Feb 2, 2007, 07:48 AM
A phune?

javierbds
Feb 2, 2007, 08:09 AM
This is just getting ridiculous ...
Some day, M$ will realize it is cheaper just to buy Apple than try to copy it ...

Stella
Feb 2, 2007, 08:17 AM
Sorry if I mis-understand you, but microsoft have got the lionshare of the 3rd gen market console - having released the 360 a year in front of anyone else ( well, that was down to Sony's recent problems ).

The Wii is selling very well and has what - 4 million sales - that is very impressive in such a short time. Its an excellent machine, but thus far, no game has utilitised its full graphics potential ( like all games after any console launch ). A shame.

I hope the Wii doesn't turn out to be a fad - because it deserves to do very well. Unlike other consoles - it really does get you interacting with the game.

I would be surprised if the PS3 over turns the 360 lead - without hefty PS3 price cuts to match or better the 360 price. I really think Sony have blown it with the PS3.

We will have to wait for around 12 months to get a true picture of the 3rd Gen consoles - by then all supply constraints should be been resolved.


And by the way ... Microsoft had the opportunity with the Xbox 360 to steal a market - instead they waited ... the Wii is the game in town and I imagine it will eventually put Microsoft back into 3rd, maybe even 4th place.

To get back on topic... a Zune smartphone.. interesting. So, how will it differ from any other smartphone-enabled-media phone?!

Digitalclips
Feb 2, 2007, 08:53 AM
Sorry if I mis-understand you, but microsoft have got the lionshare of the 3rd gen market console - having released the 360 a year in front of anyone else ( well, that was down to Sony's recent problems ).

The Wii is selling very well and has what - 4 million sales - that is very impressive in such a short time. Its an excellent machine, but thus far, no game has utilitised its full graphics potential ( like all games after any console launch ). A shame.

I hope the Wii doesn't turn out to be a fad - because it deserves to do very well. Unlike other consoles - it really does get you interacting with the game.

I would be surprised if the PS3 over turns the 360 lead - without hefty PS3 price cuts to match or better the 360 price. I really think Sony have blown it with the PS3.

We will have to wait for around 12 months to get a true picture of the 3rd Gen consoles - by then all supply constraints should be been resolved.



To get back on topic... a Zune smartphone.. interesting. So, how will it differ from any other smartphone-enabled-media phone?!

Stella you always have such a calm and well balanced approach to defending MS. Are you connected to them in anyway? Just wondering.

Stella
Feb 2, 2007, 09:00 AM
Stella you always have such a calm and well balanced approach to defending MS. Are you connected to them in anyway? Just wondering.

I have absolutely no love for microsoft whatsoever. OTH - I don't want to be a drooling Apple over-zealot either. It just seems like I'm defending MS - because on these forums it always ( seems like ) it comes down to Apple v Microsoft.

Even though I dislike microsoft, I admire some things they have done - i.e., console market. They came in late and managed to make a huge impact - especially with the 360.

I like Apple, but some of their decisons are breath taking ( in a negative way ), IMO.

asphalt-proof
Feb 2, 2007, 09:06 AM
You know, I just can't see why MS feels the need to go with a Zune phone. All WM5 smartphones have windows media 10-11 on them. Basically, they ALREADY have a phones that does music, email, sms, etc. Really, the only difference is that someone else makes the hardware. And in the case of the current Zune, well they don't make that hardware either. Isn't it just a cut up Toshiba? This is absolutely stupid of MS. They are confusing buyers ("Do I get a WM5 smarphone, PDA phone, Pocket PC phone, or a Zune... what the Hell is the difference? I'll just get a Palm.") They are shooting themselves the foot! They are going to piss off partners left and right! This is nothing more than a pissing match between MS and Apple. THe problem for MS is that they are the only ones pissing.

This is a great time for Palm to get their head out and actually upgrade their OS and innovate their offerings.

I was interested in what the submitter had to say about the 'problem of the 6 month lead time allowing other manufacturers to get in the game.' Why would Apple announce a product not yet ready for realease? One POSSIBLE reason is because of the hype built up about the rumored iPhone. It was such a fever pitch that maybe Apple was afraid that if they didn't talk about it, stock would plunge and articles predicting gloom and doom would start up again. This coupled with the fact that they didn't have anything else to present... not even upgraded Macs, could surely spell major problems for the last MWSF. For all those complaining about that last MWSF, maybe that was all they COULD show. Maybe the reason iLife and iWOrk weren't demoed was because they are too tightly integrated with Leopard and would reveal secret features they wouldn't be able to hide.

This is a lot of maybes but I think some of them are pretty probable. Here is hoping that there will be an early release of the iPHone. But unlikely.

Digitalclips
Feb 2, 2007, 09:19 AM
You know, I just can't see why MS feels the need to go with a Zune phone. All WM5 smartphones have windows media 10-11 on them. Basically, they ALREADY have a phones that does music, email, sms, etc. Really, the only difference is that someone else makes the hardware. And in the case of the current Zune, well they don't make that hardware either. Isn't it just a cut up Toshiba? This is absolutely stupid of MS. They are confusing buyers ("Do I get a WM5 smarphone, PDA phone, Pocket PC phone, or a Zune... what the Hell is the difference? I'll just get a Palm.") They are shooting themselves the foot! They are going to piss off partners left and right! This is nothing more than a pissing match between MS and Apple. THe problem for MS is that they are the only ones pissing.

This is a great time for Palm to get their head out and actually upgrade their OS and innovate their offerings.

I was interested in what the submitter had to say about the 'problem of the 6 month lead time allowing other manufacturers to get in the game.' Why would Apple announce a product not yet ready for realease? One POSSIBLE reason is because of the hype built up about the rumored iPhone. It was such a fever pitch that maybe Apple was afraid that if they didn't talk about it, stock would plunge and articles predicting gloom and doom would start up again. This coupled with the fact that they didn't have anything else to present... not even upgraded Macs, could surely spell major problems for the last MWSF. For all those complaining about that last MWSF, maybe that was all they COULD show. Maybe the reason iLife and iWOrk weren't demoed was because they are too tightly integrated with Leopard and would reveal secret features they wouldn't be able to hide.

This is a lot of maybes but I think some of them are pretty probable. Here is hoping that there will be an early release of the iPHone. But unlikely.

I suspect you are correct about the tie in to Leopard holding everything up. I think soon, very soon, when Leopard is ready loads of stuff will start flooding out of the gate.

Perhaps another 'Maybe' is Apple wanted Vista out there first forcing MS to show their hand fully. Had Apple brought Leopard out last Fall I bet there would have been another delay from MS and a few more Apple ideas would have got crammed into Vista.

aristobrat
Feb 2, 2007, 09:28 AM
I hope the Wii doesn't turn out to be a fad - because it deserves to do very well. Unlike other consoles - it really does get you interacting with the game.
IMO, the Wii is very much like an Apple product in that it's so freaking easy to understand and intuitive to use, people who wouldn't normally consider getting a game console can't wait to get a Wii.

Any phone from microsoft may not contain the fatal flaws of the iPhone:

- open platform ( microsoft do not close their platforms to third party development )
And the reason that Steve Jobs said that he doesn't initially want third-party apps on the iPhone was from the fatal flaw of Windows Mobile devices, where a wonky 3rd party application can easily lock-up the device.

Out of curiosity, which Windows Mobile phone devices do you have experience with? Anything with WM 2005?

gauriemma
Feb 2, 2007, 09:31 AM
I'm trying to understand the decision process a consumer goes through these days ;

1: Buy something amazing and innovative - rewarding with my purchasing decision the company that is genuinely trying to push the boundaries of technology and still make it elegant and easy to use ie Apple

or

2: Buy something second rate, clunky and derivative - rewarding with my purchasing decision the company that clones, mimics and stifles the boundaries of technology offered by others and in doing so makes it awkward, complicated and unsatisfying ie M$

Are 95% of people wearing 'micro-goggles' - do they genuinely believe M$ products are the 'best' their money can buy anymore ?

It's interesting that you note this, because whenever I see someone on the train, for example, who is using a non-iPod MP3 player, the first thing I always think is that that person obviously made a deliberate decision NOT to get an iPod, and I can not, for the life of me, figure out why.

Why would you pass over the simplest to use, best made product available in the widest variety of styles and price points (and with the largest number of accessories available)? Is it just to make an anti-Apple statement?

guzhogi
Feb 2, 2007, 09:31 AM
Hmm, looks like M$'s copiers are still @ work. For some reason, I get the feeling that this would have the same results as the Zune: major flop.

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

The Zune phone is reportedly not even in development yet, but is expected to be a "smartphone" and run a modified version of the current Zune interface/operating system.

I wonder why not a mobile version of Windows Vista? Probably too bloated to be able to run on any mobile device. :p

Stella
Feb 2, 2007, 09:37 AM
I use Symbian devices ( that is a consious decision - not because I just happen to buy it ) - none with WM5. And yes, I install 3rd party apps and use them regularly.

I see no difference between a bad application locking up a Mac and thus losing data and a bad app locking up a cell phone. I view SJ statement regarding this a very poor argument.

Personally, on the Symbian device I have - I've yet to come across a bad app that has locked up my phone good and hard. I came across several on my SE P900 - but never has it resulted in a missed phone call ( but then, granted, people don't phone me every 5 minutes - other people will vary! :-D )

IMO, the Wii is very much like an Apple product in that it's so freaking easy to understand and intuitive to use, people who wouldn't normally consider getting a game console can't wait to get a Wii.


And the reason that Steve Jobs said that he doesn't initially want third-party apps on the iPhone was from the fatal flaw of Windows Mobile devices, where a wonky 3rd party application can easily lock-up the device.

Out of curiosity, which Windows Mobile phone devices do you have experience with? Anything with WM 2005?

Digitalclips
Feb 2, 2007, 09:39 AM
IMO, the Wii is very much like an Apple product in that it's so freaking easy to understand and intuitive to use, people who wouldn't normally consider getting a game console can't wait to get a Wii.


And the reason that Steve Jobs said that he doesn't initially want third-party apps on the iPhone was from the fatal flaw of Windows Mobile devices, where a wonky 3rd party application can easily lock-up the device.

Out of curiosity, which Windows Mobile phone devices do you have experience with? Anything with WM 2005?

An Apple Game Console would make sense once AppleTV is in many homes as I suspect as many others do, that Leopard has more HD TV connectivity than Apple are letting on. So a easy to use OS X based console with all Apple's skills at making stuff cool could enter a crowded market and do well.

To those that say Apple don't know that market I say iPhone ;)

Stella
Feb 2, 2007, 09:43 AM
IMO, the Wii is very much like an Apple product in that it's so freaking easy to understand and intuitive to use, people who wouldn't normally consider getting a game console can't wait to get a Wii.


QFT

Absolutely!!!

micharadi
Feb 2, 2007, 09:45 AM
You guys kept talking about the technicality point of view. What about business?

In my opinion, this move is very dirty one, yet very clever. It might turn around everything and also may lead to Apple being forced to reduce their price; which could be a loss.

Microsoft knows for sure that they wont be able to produce a smartphone that can match iPhone, but why are they doing it? Only god knows why and of course them.

For me I will always hope that Microsoft does not stop competing with Apple, even if it means to imitate them. This is because its gonna make our lives easier, we consumers.

VISTA had been delayed for a reason, maybe. I always interpret the delay of VISTA as: when it was due to be launched a few years ago, VISTA was ready. However, it was not very compatitive in comparison to Apple OS and hence they were forced to delay it. They could not figure any way out for a couple of years so they thought why not imitate the Mac OS X? They're only good at this.

Microsoft is a lousy one. Their best theory is; throw everything on the wall and see what sticks. It works with Spaghetti too.

tbrinkma
Feb 2, 2007, 09:47 AM
err, this would be a pretty serious thread to iphone (and thus the entire ipod brand)

I'll assume you meant 'threat'. :D

The Zune is a decent player and has attracted good reviews and interest from PC tech heads. It is also only their first attempt, MS showed with the xbox that they are willing to throw money at a market to establish themselves in the long term. They have also showed that they can develop hardware in a very short space of time regardless of cost.

The Zune is a decent player that has attracted *mixed* reviews, and *minimal* interest from PC tech heads. Remember, this is the DAP that was out-sold by a record player less than a month after it was launched.
No argument with the 'MS will throw money at a problem' point, it's what they're best at. Unfortunately, they throw money at a problem, and consistently end up with mediocre solutions. It's just the way they are.
Where have they showed they can develop hardware in a very short space of time (given that cost isn't really a factor for MS)? The XBox? Essentially a PC. The 360? Not developped in 'a short space of time'. The Zune? A different face-plate on a pre-existing Toshiba MP3 player that didn't sell well the first time around.

The iPhone looks like an amazing piece of kit, but it has deal breaking flaws for many people:

No 3G (yet)
Only 4-8 GB storage
VERY expensive
Locked to one network

For the most part, the *US* doesn't have 3G yet. Where it does it's extremely expensive, and the phones that support it are battery hogs (less than 2 hours use of 3G functionality on a phone that otherwise gives 30 hours of talk-time).

Only 4-8GB of storage. Only? Most smartphones come with 128MB or less! Sure, they've got an SD (or mini-SD, or micro-SD) slot, but the phone doesn't have 4-8GB of storage.

Very expensive. Compared to what? Seriously, compared to what? You're not going to find a smart-phone on the market that has the same features as the iPhone for less. Period. End of story. Even if you ignore the mulit-touch nature of the screen, and the built-in storage capacity the iPhone is the least expensive phone in its feature-set neighborhood. The phones that come close in features & price come with 128-256MB of storage, and you'll spend another $80 getting a 4GB mini-SD card for them if you can even find one (god forbid you want an 8GB card).

For a Zune phone to be a threat it wouldn't need to have all the amazing iPhone features, it could simply be an MP3/Video Player capable of making calls and sending e-mails with a 20-30 GB capacity and lower price.


A Zune phone without all the amazing iPhone features would be yet another Windows Mobile smart-phone, which combined have managed to capture 4.5% of the smart-phone market which represents a piddly 5% of the cell-phone market. Give it a 20-30GB drive, and you're looking at something even larger than the 30GB Zune (which is slightly larger than the 80GB iPod). Remember, a device doesn't get *smaller* when you start adding radios and antennas. If the Zune phone has 20-30GB of flash, it's *not* going to be less expensive than the iPhone.

Should they go the whole hog and make a PDA phone, they would be able to call upon all the experience they have in the mobile software business already.


The experience that finally brought us an acceptably usable PDA interface with winCE 5 (Windows Mobile 5)?

Bitch all you want about idea stealing but you must never underestimate MS.


I've discovered over the past 10 years as a software developer (using mostly Microsoft products) that it's actually quite *difficult* to underestimate Microsoft. For example, when they first announced the intended ship-date of Longhorn (well before they announced the Vista name), I had it pegged as being released in early- to mid-2006. When did it ship? Late 2006 for enterprise customers, and early 2007 for consumers.

For me capacity and price are the biggest problem with the iPhone. Apple will surely have to broaden the iPhone line to appeal to average customers. An iPhone nano seems like an obvious move.

If capacity and price are the biggest problems you have with the iPhone, I can only assume you have the same problem with every other smart phone on the market. None have anywhere *near* the capacity of the iPhone, and nothing with anything close to the feature-set of the iPhone is noticably cheaper.

There's only one way Microsoft is going to beat the feature-set of the iPhone *and* beat the price. Unfortunately, that way is an illegal activity for a monopoly referred to as 'dumping', where the monopoly enters a market selling their goods below cost in order to drive out the competition. To top it off, if MS *did* try dumping, they'd have more than just Apple filing anti-trust complaints. They'd have the entire smart-phone market *including* their Windows Mobile smart-phone partners.

Stella
Feb 2, 2007, 09:53 AM
I view competition that results in Apple having to reduce their prices a Good Thing.

Microsoft have already the mobile platform - all they need is the hardware - and they have their own branded media phone.

Why do you view competition as bad?


Y
In my opinion, this move is very dirty one, yet very clever. It might turn around everything and also may lead to Apple being forced to reduce their price; which could be a loss.

freeny
Feb 2, 2007, 09:55 AM
Why so many negative votes?
Competition is good

Stella
Feb 2, 2007, 09:58 AM
For example, Nokia N Range - i.e., Nokia N95. It doesn't have the interface of course, but you can use memory cards ( up to 2Gig each ).

http://www.nseries.com/nseries/v2/media/product/tech_specs/en-R1/tech_specs_n95_en_R1.html?lang=en&country=R1

It'll be subsidized by carriers, or you can buy outright and unlocked.



Very expensive. Compared to what? Seriously, compared to what? You're not going to find a smart-phone on the market that has the same features as the iPhone for less. Period. End of story. Even if you ignore the mulit-touch nature of the screen, and the built-in storage capacity the iPhone is the least expensive phone in its feature-set neighborhood. The phones that come close in features & price come with 128-256MB of storage, and you'll spend another $80 getting a 4GB mini-SD card for them if you can even find one (god forbid you want an 8GB card).

tbrinkma
Feb 2, 2007, 10:29 AM
Zune is MS's first step into a new market, like the xbox they developed the product quickly and are willing to take a big hit in the pocket to see it succeed.

Some people would argue that if you take a big hit in the pocket, the product *didn't* succeed.

For example, when the XBox left the market (at the introduction of the 360), it was about 2 million units ahead of that generation's 'loser' (the GameCube). Unfortunately, MS reports the number *shipped* while Nintendo reports the number *sold*, so the difference is very likely to be smaller, though the XBox probably did still come out ahead on unit sales. However, the PS2 sold about triple what the XBox and Game Cube did *combined*. In that kind of scale, the XBox and Game Cube were *both* the losers of the generation, seperated by a statistically insignificant margin.

Now take a look at it from a profit perspective. Again, Sony wins in this comparison, but Nintendo takes a distinct 2nd place having made a hefty profit of the Game Cube. Microsoft, however lost (IIRC) an estimated 1-2 billion on the XBox (nothing major for MS, but not pocket change even for them).

In market-terms the XBox was nothing except an abject failure. The 360 seems to be about as popular as the XBox was, and this time around, I expect MS will manage to break even, or maybe pull a small profit, but I still think Sony is going to come out ahead of MS in the long term. This generation, however will probably end up being owned by Nintendo with their Wii. It was released on November 20th, and it's *still* selling out as soon as shipments arrive. The PS3 has gotten to the point where you can walk in late in the week and find 2 or 3 available. (We're not talking massive piles, but you can find them if you check around.) The 360 has a 1-year lead on, but both the PS3 and the Wii are selling better at this point than the 360 did at the same point after it's release (the Wii by a large margin).

kalisphoenix
Feb 2, 2007, 10:48 AM
For example, Nokia N Range - i.e., Nokia N95. It doesn't have the interface of course, but you can use memory cards ( up to 2Gig each ).

http://www.nseries.com/nseries/v2/media/product/tech_specs/en-R1/tech_specs_n95_en_R1.html?lang=en&country=R1

It'll be subsidized by carriers, or you can buy outright and unlocked.

That doesn't compare at all. It's like answering the question "What pickup truck can you get for under $5000?" with "Well, I can get a radio flyer wagon, replace one of the axles, attach a lawnmower engine, and bolt a bicycle seat to it..."

tbrinkma
Feb 2, 2007, 10:52 AM
They came in late and managed to make a huge impact - especially with the 360.

MS came in a little late in the XBox/PS2/GC generation and barely managed 2nd place by losing more money on the endeavor than they brought in with it.

MS entered the 360/PS3/Wii generation *early*. With a year's lead-time they're leading the pack with 10.4 million, but comparing roughly the same time span from release, here's the figures (http://forum.pcvsconsole.com/viewthread.php?tid=8498):
Wii - 3.19 million (launch to end of 2006 = 41 days)
PS3 - 1.84 million (launch to end of 2006 = 43 days)
360 - 1.5 million (launch to end of 2005 = 39 days)

Note that the 360 didn't have any competition from its own generation for a year, and is still being out-sold by the PS2. Also note that the Wii's numbers are currently being held back by availability and the PS3 has only just recently gotten past that point.

Also note that MS releases *shipped* numbers while both Nintendo and Sony release *sold* numbers. I've seen accusations that MS flooded the supply chain with 360s this Xmas season to make their numbers look better, but I figure it's more likely that they over-estimated the demand in the face of the PS3 & Wii releases.

Stella
Feb 2, 2007, 10:52 AM
Why doesn't it compare?

Its a smartphone + media phone , just like the iPhone.

That doesn't compare at all. It's like answering the question "What pickup truck can you get for under $5000?" with "Well, I can get a radio flyer wagon, replace one of the axles, attach a lawnmower engine, and bolt a bicycle seat to it..."

I was just reading a similar post in the Gaming Thread!

We'll have to wait around 12 months or so - when all supply constraints are over - to get a clear picture.

That comparison below is good for sales.

MS came in a little late in the XBox/PS2/GC generation and barely managed 2nd place by losing more money on the endeavor than they brought in with it.

MS entered the 360/PS3/Wii generation *early*. With a year's lead-time they're leading the pack with 10.4 million, but comparing roughly the same time span from release, here's the figures (http://forum.pcvsconsole.com/viewthread.php?tid=8498):
Wii - 3.19 million (launch to end of 2006 = 41 days)
PS3 - 1.84 million (launch to end of 2006 = 43 days)
360 - 1.5 million (launch to end of 2005 = 39 days)

Note that the 360 didn't have any competition from its own generation for a year, and is still being out-sold by the PS2. Also note that the Wii's numbers are currently being held back by availability and the PS3 has only just recently gotten past that point.

Also note that MS releases *shipped* numbers while both Nintendo and Sony release *sold* numbers. I've seen accusations that MS flooded the supply chain with 360s this Xmas season to make their numbers look better, but I figure it's more likely that they over-estimated the demand in the face of the PS3 & Wii releases.

tbrinkma
Feb 2, 2007, 11:32 AM
Why doesn't it compare?

Its a smartphone + media phone , just like the iPhone.

How doesn't that nokia compare?

Smaller screen
1/2 the resolution
160MB memory
can be expanded with micro-SD cards up to 2GB (approx $60+ each)
less battery life (measured by talk-time)
No 900MHz band GSM
Worse interface
Larger than the iPhone
- Nokia N95: 99 x 53 x 21 mm = 110,187mm^3
- iPhone: 116 x 61 x 11.6 = 82,081.6mm^3
$799 (probably the unlocked price, but that would mean it's still going to be about $550 with a plan subsidy)

Hows that for why it doesn't compare?

Stella
Feb 2, 2007, 11:41 AM
I see these what you specify as different *specs*, it still allows them to be compared.

Additionally, I see the N95 as iPhone competition - they are both media smartphones and both have very good internet capabilities - email, browser ( both based upon Webkit ) etc.

How about, what specs iPhone lacks:
- 3G ( at the moment )
- Java
- An open 3rd party software support
- GPS
- good quality camera ( with video recording )
- ability to watch TV content - via 3g
- TV out
- FM Radio
- ability to replace the battery
- one handed usage ( iPhone requires two hands )

The price of the N95 will quickly come down, unlike the iPhone.

N95 most certainly does support 900mhz GSM!!
http://forum.nokia.com/devices/N95

Note: Symbian is quite an efficient OS - and doesn't require lots of RAM - unlike OSX - mobile.

How doesn't that nokia compare?

Smaller screen
1/2 the resolution
160MB memory
can be expanded with micro-SD cards up to 2GB (approx $60+ each)
less battery life (measured by talk-time)
No 900MHz band GSM
Worse interface
Larger than the iPhone
- Nokia N95: 99 x 53 x 21 mm = 110,187mm^3
- iPhone: 116 x 61 x 11.6 = 82,081.6mm^3
$799 (probably the unlocked price, but that would mean it's still going to be about $550 with a plan subsidy)

Hows that for why it doesn't compare?

numediaman
Feb 2, 2007, 11:58 AM
You guys kept talking about the technicality point of view. What about business?

In my opinion, this move is very dirty one, yet very clever. It might turn around everything and also may lead to Apple being forced to reduce their price; which could be a loss.

I think you are right about this. This is a very good business move. Here's why:

It will be very hard for Zune to replace the iPod. But if a large percentage of uses will eventually buy their "iPod" as an iPhone, then getting into this business is smart.

The real smart part is that Apple is vulnerable in this space (phones). It is locked into Cingular, and the cost is high.

Microsoft, if it uses its cash in this space, could sign up multiple carriers and lock in a bigger portion of the market almost immediately. Yes, their product will most likely be inferior, but so is their OS and it has the lion's share of the market.

From day one I thought Apple's deal with Cingular was the product's fatal flaw. This is one way it could manifest itself.

aristobrat
Feb 2, 2007, 12:06 PM
Additionally, I see the N95 as iPhone competition - they are both media smartphones and both have very good internet capabilities - email, browser ( both based upon Webkit ) etc.
Well, I agree, as much as the PS3 is Wii competition.

You know how the Wii is getting a lot of sales from people who never would have other considered getting a gaming console...

... that's exactly how I see the iPhone working.

So just like serious gamers would never consider a Wii (Nintendo can't make them fast enough for the general public), I don't see a lot of serious smartphone people considering an iPhone...

... and I don't think the loss of people like that's going to slow Apple down one bit.

The real smart part is that Apple is vulnerable in this space (phones). It is locked into Cingular, and the cost is high.
Yeah, I was thinking about that too.

My guess is that Apple is gambling that nobody else will come up with something as good as their product before their exclusive contract with Cingular is up.

Stella
Feb 2, 2007, 12:12 PM
Certainly, the iPhone will attract people who would not otherwise buy a 'proper' smartphone.

Your anology ( spelling ) of Wii v PS3 - iPhone v Traditional Smartphones - is a good one ( apart from the iPhone is considerably more expensive than the Wii given the comparison ;-) )

Serious gaming seems to be graphic whores! :D

Well, I agree, as much as the PS3 is Wii competition.

You know how the Wii is getting a lot of sales from people who never would have other considered getting a gaming console...

... that's exactly how I see the iPhone working.

So just like serious gamers would never consider a Wii (Nintendo can't make them fast enough for the general public), I don't see a lot of serious smartphone people considering an iPhone...

... and I don't think the loss of people like that's going to slow Apple down one bit.

sonnys
Feb 2, 2007, 12:17 PM
Having briefly worked at Microsoft, I can confidently say that they are truly under the impression that they can do no wrong. They sit around in meetings and operate inside a delusional bubble. If you think Steve Jobs' "reality distortion field" is bad, go work at Microsoft! MS has all these separate business units that just do what they want -- it's a beast with many heads, and Ballmer is obviously the ass.

The only shortcoming I can see to the iPhone is that it runs exclusively on the worst mobile network in America. I don't know where Cingular gets off on its claims of being the #1 mobile network, but their customer service is crap and their coverage is even worse. I had Cingular last year, and could not make a single phone call from Seattle to Phoenix without losing the signal or the call being dropped. It was an absolutely horrid experience, and I've been in heaven since moving to Verizon.

No matter how good the iPhone is, I won't buy one as long as it only works with Cingular. I will never give Cingular another dime of my money. EVER.

fall3n
Feb 2, 2007, 12:52 PM
I'll assume you meant 'threat'. :D


The Zune is a decent player that has attracted *mixed* reviews, and *minimal* interest from PC tech heads. Remember, this is the DAP that was out-sold by a record player less than a month after it was launched.
No argument with the 'MS will throw money at a problem' point, it's what they're best at. Unfortunately, they throw money at a problem, and consistently end up with mediocre solutions. It's just the way they are.
Where have they showed they can develop hardware in a very short space of time (given that cost isn't really a factor for MS)? The XBox? Essentially a PC. The 360? Not developped in 'a short space of time'. The Zune? A different face-plate on a pre-existing Toshiba MP3 player that didn't sell well the first time around.


For the most part, the *US* doesn't have 3G yet. Where it does it's extremely expensive, and the phones that support it are battery hogs (less than 2 hours use of 3G functionality on a phone that otherwise gives 30 hours of talk-time).

Only 4-8GB of storage. Only? Most smartphones come with 128MB or less! Sure, they've got an SD (or mini-SD, or micro-SD) slot, but the phone doesn't have 4-8GB of storage.

Very expensive. Compared to what? Seriously, compared to what? You're not going to find a smart-phone on the market that has the same features as the iPhone for less. Period. End of story. Even if you ignore the mulit-touch nature of the screen, and the built-in storage capacity the iPhone is the least expensive phone in its feature-set neighborhood. The phones that come close in features & price come with 128-256MB of storage, and you'll spend another $80 getting a 4GB mini-SD card for them if you can even find one (god forbid you want an 8GB card).



A Zune phone without all the amazing iPhone features would be yet another Windows Mobile smart-phone, which combined have managed to capture 4.5% of the smart-phone market which represents a piddly 5% of the cell-phone market. Give it a 20-30GB drive, and you're looking at something even larger than the 30GB Zune (which is slightly larger than the 80GB iPod). Remember, a device doesn't get *smaller* when you start adding radios and antennas. If the Zune phone has 20-30GB of flash, it's *not* going to be less expensive than the iPhone.



The experience that finally brought us an acceptably usable PDA interface with winCE 5 (Windows Mobile 5)?



I've discovered over the past 10 years as a software developer (using mostly Microsoft products) that it's actually quite *difficult* to underestimate Microsoft. For example, when they first announced the intended ship-date of Longhorn (well before they announced the Vista name), I had it pegged as being released in early- to mid-2006. When did it ship? Late 2006 for enterprise customers, and early 2007 for consumers.



If capacity and price are the biggest problems you have with the iPhone, I can only assume you have the same problem with every other smart phone on the market. None have anywhere *near* the capacity of the iPhone, and nothing with anything close to the feature-set of the iPhone is noticably cheaper.

There's only one way Microsoft is going to beat the feature-set of the iPhone *and* beat the price. Unfortunately, that way is an illegal activity for a monopoly referred to as 'dumping', where the monopoly enters a market selling their goods below cost in order to drive out the competition. To top it off, if MS *did* try dumping, they'd have more than just Apple filing anti-trust complaints. They'd have the entire smart-phone market *including* their Windows Mobile smart-phone partners.

Everything you said is exactly the truth. It's so funny when people write that the iPhone won't do well because it's to expensive. Expensive from what? Your measly $100 cell phone with primative Java enabled browsing and your massive 64mb (if your lucky) built in memory. Even at around the same price as the iPhone, you won't get anything even close to the same featureset and storage capacity.

To those saying that 4/8g isn't enough space, what the hell do you want, a portable hard drive? No, it's a phone! A phone that can play you some movies and mp3s while you browse the web, take pictures, make phone calls, etc. Not a freaking second back up drive so you can transfer your porno. Gimme a break people, 4/8g is huge for such a multi-function device that can still rest in the palm of your hand with ease.

miketcool
Feb 2, 2007, 12:53 PM
I think you've hit the nail on the head. The notion that, from a standing start on Feb 1, Microsoft could have a product of the complexity of a smart phone ready this year strains the imagination. I think Microsoft would have to get through FCC approval for U.S. sales just like Apple is doing. Apple worked on iPhone for a long while. There's simply no way Microsoft could do all the things that need to be done in that short a time.

Apple releases iPod updates or new models on the average of every 6 - 8 weeks. Microsoft already said that it would be a year before there would be a new Zune model. And that's just the player - add a phone and do it months faster? No way.

Develping a new product, going through R&D, testing, debugging, FCC approval would take a long time of course to match Apple's iPhone. But who said MS develops anything new?

The Zune was a Toshiba player with FCC approval that MS bought and retooled a little. I'm guessing actual MS development of that player was only a few months in order to brand it with MS software and a lousy PR scheme.

I can see a smartphone being made right now by another Japanese or Korean comapny that MS is trying to purchase and rebuild via the interface. You know, to give us the full windows experience via a 4 inch handheld.
I can definately see a poorly improvised bug ridden rebranded device in time for the holidays. Come on, who said anything about these guys creating anything new?

photomaniac
Feb 2, 2007, 01:06 PM
GAWWWDDD!!!! Microsoft is so lame! ...and they've always been lame!
(and no, I'm not just saying this because I'm an "Apple fanboy" or because I'm on macrumors.com... Seriously, deep down they got to know how much they really suck!

A movie I haven't seen for years and just watched again is "Pirates of Silicon Valley". It is so incredibly funny that things have not changed at all with Microsoft's business strategies.

I would be so depressed if I worked at Microsoft.... sooooo depressed :(

macidiot
Feb 2, 2007, 01:14 PM
I never astroturf. I'm pretty open about working for Microsoft. The Zune came out last November. In fact, Wikipedia pegs the release date (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zune) as being November 14, 2006.



Really? What have you had to do with it? I love hacking code on my Dash, since I get to work with C# in Visual Studio 2005 (bias alert: I work on Visual Studio). I've tried my hand at developing Palm software once or twice, and it never seemed as easy. I'd love to hear what other embedded operating systems you've worked with. Is it just an issue of logo certification? You should complain to the Windows Mobile team (http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/), if that's the case.

Cheers,
Aaron

Windows Mobile might be nice for you to develop on, doesn't mean it's particularly good.

This is a big part of the problem (and success) for Microsoft. They cater to developers (which gets them a buttload of support), but the user experience sucks.

This is also part of a larger problem with developers: they often have no idea of how a non-developer thinks/uses an application. And this is the key aspect of Apple software. It is designed to be used by a normal person that doesn't think in C++. That's why you hear things like "Apple software makes sense."

And yes, I've used Win mobile...pfft. Example: I spent 5 minutes trying to navigate a webpage with a UI designed for a mouse/curser, but conveniently forgets to include a mouse/curser :P

I've worked in IT for 15 years... and am familiar with at least a dozen OS. If I can't figure out how to do basic navigation in the OS, something is seriously broken with it.

This is just getting ridiculous ...
Some day, M$ will realize it is cheaper just to buy Apple than try to copy it ...

I dunno, 100-120 billion* is pretty expensive.

* Apple is currently worth about 80 billion. To buy it, there would have to be some sort of premium applied to get stockholders/board to approve. In fact, considering it would be MS buying, the premium might be something like 100%. So try 160billion.

mac-hummer
Feb 2, 2007, 01:31 PM
Let's not forget Microsoft has been developing phones since 2002 (pocketpc phone editions) along with the manufacturers.

IMO, I dont think they will make this 2007 holidays.

macidiot
Feb 2, 2007, 01:32 PM
Sorry if I mis-understand you, but microsoft have got the lionshare of the 3rd gen market console - having released the 360 a year in front of anyone else ( well, that was down to Sony's recent problems ).

The Wii is selling very well and has what - 4 million sales - that is very impressive in such a short time. Its an excellent machine, but thus far, no game has utilitised its full graphics potential ( like all games after any console launch ). A shame.

I hope the Wii doesn't turn out to be a fad - because it deserves to do very well. Unlike other consoles - it really does get you interacting with the game.

I would be surprised if the PS3 over turns the 360 lead - without hefty PS3 price cuts to match or better the 360 price. I really think Sony have blown it with the PS3.

We will have to wait for around 12 months to get a true picture of the 3rd Gen consoles - by then all supply constraints should be been resolved.



To get back on topic... a Zune smartphone.. interesting. So, how will it differ from any other smartphone-enabled-media phone?!

True, but the 260 hasn't even been able to outsell the PS2. The xbox has about 14 million sold in 14 months, the Wii sold 4 million in 2-3. That 1 year lead time advantage looks like it will disappear by the end of the year.

Stella
Feb 2, 2007, 01:36 PM
People fail to realise you DO get a similar feature set to the iPhone with functionality on top of for the same price as iPhone.

You may not get the *identical* feature set, with some features lacking and some extras that the iPhone doesn't have.

People seem to have the impression that the iPhone contains these feateures that no phone has seen before on one device!! The software on the iPhone is nothing special, its the UI - nothing more. In fact, the iPhone lacks a lot of features that phones have had for some time now.

Even at around the same price as the iPhone, you won't get anything even close to the same featureset and storage capacity.



You mean the 360 :D

True on both counts - the 12 month 3rd gen 360 lead. You must consider the PS2 has been out for signficiantly longer than the 360. We must wait longer for a true picture of the 3rd Generation sales figures. Its too early for a clear indication.

True, but the 260 hasn't even been able to outsell the PS2. The xbox has about 14 million sold in 14 months, the Wii sold 4 million in 2-3. That 1 year lead time advantage looks like it will disappear by the end of the year.

clevin
Feb 2, 2007, 01:38 PM
not in development yet, why bother bashing? MS was in smartphone OS market for years.
and even they were to come out with a Zune UI touch screen smartphone, how do u know they are copying apple? don't forget LG already has a touch screen phone ahead of apple, copy, copy, why the hell u think "copy" is the word that fit? apple didn't invent the world!

If apple was so confidant, and have all the patent, go sue M$, lets see whats gonna happen.

macidiot
Feb 2, 2007, 01:44 PM
Everything you said is exactly the truth. It's so funny when people write that the iPhone won't do well because it's to expensive. Expensive from what? Your measly $100 cell phone with primative Java enabled browsing and your massive 64mb (if your lucky) built in memory. Even at around the same price as the iPhone, you won't get anything even close to the same featureset and storage capacity.

To those saying that 4/8g isn't enough space, what the hell do you want, a portable hard drive? No, it's a phone! A phone that can play you some movies and mp3s while you browse the web, take pictures, make phone calls, etc. Not a freaking second back up drive so you can transfer your porno. Gimme a break people, 4/8g is huge for such a multi-function device that can still rest in the palm of your hand with ease.

I want a phone that can call a guy named "Scotty" who can then instantly transport me around the world.

Sadly, the MS answer is to be able to call a guy named "Frank" in India who can tell you how to reinstall the os...

Stella
Feb 2, 2007, 01:46 PM
Can't agree with you more.

Some people on here can't see the woods for the trees - they are such Apple fanatics - and dislike a negative thing said about Apple - with responses such as "why are you even on these forums".

not in development yet, why bother bashing?

aussie_geek
Feb 2, 2007, 01:50 PM
can't microsoft come up with anything new???

blatant half hearted ripoff of the iPhone is in progress.... :rolleyes:

aussie_geek

clevin
Feb 2, 2007, 01:54 PM
Can't agree with you more.

Some people on here can't see the woods for the trees - they are such Apple fanatics - and dislike a negative thing said about Apple - with responses such as "why are you even on these forums".

i was wondering when apple decided to adopt major code from BSD and Konqueror for their OSX and Safari, did these same ppl ask "why copy other ppl"? lol, ironic, totally.

Stella
Feb 2, 2007, 01:55 PM
Double standards for you I'm afraid.

Apple copy ideas all the time - like just anyone else. Its OK for Apple, but not for others - thats what you are really saying - correct?


can't microsoft come up with anything new???

blatant half hearted ripoff of the iPhone is in progress.... :rolleyes:

aussie_geek

macidiot
Feb 2, 2007, 02:00 PM
People fail to realise you DO get a similar feature set to the iPhone with functionality on top of for the same price as iPhone.

You may not get the *identical* feature set, with some features lacking and some extras that the iPhone doesn't have.

People seem to have the impression that the iPhone contains these feateures that no phone has seen before on one device!! The software on the iPhone is nothing special, its the UI - nothing more. In fact, the iPhone lacks a lot of features that phones have had for some time now.



You mean the 360 :D

True on both counts - the 12 month 3rd gen 360 lead. You must consider the PS2 has been out for signficiantly longer than the 360. We must wait longer for a true picture of the 3rd Generation sales figures. Its too early for a clear indication.

Ha, yeah that 260 was a typo, but I kind of like it :D

And personally, I like the phones from SE, Nokia and Samsung... Nokia when it comes to smartphones. That is the real competition, not some weak future first-gen offering from MS. If MS really is contemplating a zune phone, I hope they gave it some serious thought and don't come out with something half-assed like the zune. The other cell phone makers aren't going to roll over without a brutal fight.

And windows mobile/ce is winning because of Palm screwups. Oh and that Palm is a tiny company that can be outspent. Apple, Nokia and Samsung can throw billions at a problem...

Stella
Feb 2, 2007, 02:02 PM
Windows mobile isn't winning - they are #2, far, far behind Symbian.

Definitely, SE, Nokia and similar phones - they are the competition. MS could pull a surprise with the Zune cell phone and make a gem of a device - but I doubt it - going by past history - i.e., The zune player itself - like you said.

Ha, yeah that 260 was a typo, but I kind of like it :D

And personally, I like the phones from SE, Nokia and Samsung... Nokia when it comes to smartphones. That is the real competition, not some weak future first-gen offering from MS. If MS really is contemplating a zune phone, I hope they gave it some serious thought and don't come out with something half-assed like the zune. The other cell phone makers aren't going to roll over without a brutal fight.

And windows mobile/ce is winning because of Palm screwups. Oh and that Palm is a tiny company that can be outspent. Apple, Nokia and Samsung can throw billions at a problem...

SplinterCell
Feb 2, 2007, 02:13 PM
it strikes me as odd how anti-competitive so many users are. what's the problem with a company introducing a competing product? who knows, it may even pressure apple to improve on its award-winning iPhone design. weren't we the ones screaming about anti-competitive behavior on the part of microsoft not too long ago?

Ditto...I don't see what the big deal is. Competition is good, even if it's from Microsoft....

clevin
Feb 2, 2007, 02:36 PM
the total smartphone market is only 5% of total cellphone market, don't treat i like a hidden treasure.

APPLENEWBIE
Feb 2, 2007, 02:38 PM
It will work great, but you can only call people within 5 feet of you, and you can only do it three times before the person is deleted from your phone's directory...:)

Grakkle
Feb 2, 2007, 03:12 PM
If it looks like the Zune I'd rather have some other phone. The Zune's definitely not my idea of style, but at least you can hide it in your pocket if you have one, which makes it at least better than a Zune phone.

morespce54
Feb 2, 2007, 03:27 PM
I can see it now, instead of telling someone to call me, just tell them to "Zune Me."

Yes... "Zune Me Up" will be the next buzzword... :D :D :D :o

iEdd
Feb 2, 2007, 03:50 PM
I hope the Wii doesn't turn out to be a fad - because it deserves to do very well.
Well in that case, you deserve to live in a cave. They did something NEW. If no-one ever did that, then you wouldn't have the computer that you're typing those lovely posts on. :rolleyes: :)

Java
Umm.. Why does it matter if it doesn't have java apps when you can't make you're own (yet) anyway?

GPS
Fridge, microwave... All these severe flaws that should be there..

good quality camera ( with video recording )
Oh, like 2 megapixel - which is fine for 6x4, therefore will look great on the screen size. Oh and IT'S A PHONE. Well the video recording isn't there, but meh phone videos look (and sound) crap anyway. It might come later.

ability to watch TV content
At $12/month, limited to 5 minutes a day. No thanks.

TV out
It has bluetooth and a dock connecter. It can (and will) easily happen.

FM Radio
AM radio, torch, pocket knife. You really make it sound like you want a much thicker, heavier iPhone.

ability to replace the battery
You don't have one, how would you know what the battery is like? Also, you CAN replace it. The same way you replace one in an iPod. It's not that hard...

one handed usage ( iPhone requires two hands )
Oh you've used one have you? You can always put it down on a table and use one hand.. With all the features you want it to have you'd need 2 hands (and possible a forklift) to carry it anyway...

Rod Rod
Feb 2, 2007, 03:59 PM
The Zune was a Toshiba player with FCC approval that MS bought and retooled a little.

FCC approval doesn't apply to mp3 players.

Stella
Feb 2, 2007, 04:19 PM
You didn't read my post correctly - I think I said, in other words " i hope the Wii does well because its innovative and deserves success" - so I don't know why you think I should live in a cave?

Well in that case, you deserve to live in a cave. They did something NEW. If no-one ever did that, then you wouldn't have the computer that you're typing those lovely posts on. :rolleyes: :)


Your missing my point.

There is a wealth of 3rd party java apps out there - that can be used on cell phones.. unfortunately because of iPhone closed platform and no Java support - you can't use these.

That is my point.


Umm.. Why does it matter if it doesn't have java apps when you can't make you're own (yet) anyway?


Yea, just dismiss all features that aren't in the iPhone, easy that, isn't it? Then harp on about features that are in the iPhone that other phones may not have. Pick and choose your double standards.


If you think phone videos look crap then you haven't used the right ones - because they can be very good quality.

2megapixels are 'good' enough for point and click - there are better quality cameras about too. Apple should keep up - phones have 4 and 5 mega pixel quality cameras, with flash. Re: at the iPhone price point.


Oh, like 2 megapixel - which is fine for 6x4, therefore will look great on the screen size. Oh and IT'S A PHONE. Well the video recording isn't there, but meh phone videos look (and sound) crap anyway. It might come later.


Yawn, a dock device to display video on a TV, and sound - another thing you have to carry around. I'd rather have it integrated into the device, personally.


It has bluetooth and a dock connecter. It can (and will) easily happen.



Yawn, "but you can replace iPod and iPhone batteries - its easy" they say. Well, its not as easy as a regular phone - ie., pop off the lid and replace IS IT!!!

If you attempt to replace the iPod 5th Gen battery you run the risk of scratching the device. Its not user replacable. Apple did not intend the battery in the iPod ( or iPhone ) to be user replacable, they wanted you to send in the device or at an Apple authorised dealer etc.


You don't have one, how would you know what the battery is like? Also, you CAN replace it. The same way you replace one in an iPod. It's not that hard...


You don't get my point - I don't want to have to use two hands for a phone, or "put it down on a table". I want to use the phone in one hand - just like a regular phone. I've used two handed phones and for me, personally, its awkward. I get the impression that its a 'two handed' phone from the demos and initial feedback. I hope I'm wrong.

Why would you need two hands for all the features I've listed?!!!
Answer: you don't.



Oh you've used one have you? You can always put it down on a table and use one hand.. With all the features you want it to have you'd need 2 hands (and possible a forklift) to carry it anyway...
[/QUOTE]

Cell phones are evolving, they are no longer about just making phone calls. People should realise this... of course, they forget this when talking about the iPhone.

I'll say it again - the software in the iPhone is unspeculator, its the UI that makes a difference.

washingtony
Feb 2, 2007, 05:37 PM
C'mon, what's the point. This is a normal MS "leak", meant to spread classic fear, uncertainty and doubt among the masses. meh.

aside from that, met my first Zune user yesterday at the Oakland airport. Sat next to her in the bar for an hour and the Zune never found a friend.

I asked, she works for Microsoft licensing. :)

clevin
Feb 2, 2007, 05:40 PM
C'mon, what's the point. This is a normal MS "leak", meant to spread classic fear, uncertainty and doubt among the masses. meh.

aside from that, met my first Zune user yesterday at the Oakland airport. Sat next to her in the bar for an hour and the Zune never found a friend.

I asked, she works for Microsoft licensing. :)

how ironic!!

meet apple licensing ppl back in 1998. :D

iEdd
Feb 2, 2007, 06:11 PM
You didn't read my post correctly - I think I said, in other words " i hope the Wii does well because its innovative and deserves success"
Oops, my apologies Stella. I read it as "it deserves to be a fad". :o

Stella
Feb 2, 2007, 06:16 PM
Oops, my apologies Stella. I read it as "it deserves to be a fad". :o

No problem!
:-)

SeaFox
Feb 2, 2007, 09:27 PM
FCC approval doesn't apply to mp3 players.

Um. A device with the ability to transmit/receive radio waves (Wi-Fi) certainly DOES have to get approval from the FCC. In fact, lots of the early Zune rumor info (including the fact the Zune was based on a Toshiba GigaBeat) came from Microsoft's FCC filings.

Amdahl
Feb 2, 2007, 10:01 PM
The target launch date, however, is said to as soon as holiday 2007.

They must be trying to regain momentum lost from the Zune launch before Christmas 2006. Wow, to think I could be listening to DRM media on my phone by Valentine's Day 2007! That's only two weeks off!

Analog Kid
Feb 3, 2007, 03:50 AM
Um. A device with the ability to transmit/receive radio waves (Wi-Fi) certainly DOES have to get approval from the FCC. In fact, lots of the early Zune rumor info (including the fact the Zune was based on a Toshiba GigaBeat) came from Microsoft's FCC filings.
As does any digital device. All digital devices must pass EMI (electro-magnetic interference) testing. This isn't as complicated as intentional radiators, and I'm not sure that they get published by the FCC in the same way, but it still takes time.

(L)
Feb 3, 2007, 09:21 AM
Hmm, well, there's a FLOP you can see months in advance. It would actually be a brilliant move to avoid association with the Zune thing as much as possible.... Well, all things considered they're probably stupid enough to release another one in poop color.

I think you are right about this. This is a very good business move. Here's why:

It will be very hard for Zune to replace the iPod. But if a large percentage of uses will eventually buy their "iPod" as an iPhone, then getting into this business is smart.

The real smart part is that Apple is vulnerable in this space (phones). It is locked into Cingular, and the cost is high.

Microsoft, if it uses its cash in this space, could sign up multiple carriers and lock in a bigger portion of the market almost immediately. Yes, their product will most likely be inferior, but so is their OS and it has the lion's share of the market.

From day one I thought Apple's deal with Cingular was the product's fatal flaw. This is one way it could manifest itself.

Unfortunately, what you say here is pretty major. I do hold out some hope though, because having lots of carriers is one thing and getting a flop to sell is another. However, Apple should try harder to widen their niche a bit. Waiting for people to come to you is fine, but it's best to meet them halfway. Still, despite the fact that yes, the iPhone has much the same, even superior capacity as the Nano in music, I doubt you'll see a massive shift from iPod user to iPhone user. Well, it'll be massive but not the whole picture.

Pac a Mac
Feb 3, 2007, 11:15 AM
Cell phones sell on style. Microsoft has no style, why worry?

Rod Rod
Feb 4, 2007, 04:06 AM
Um. A device with the ability to transmit/receive radio waves (Wi-Fi) certainly DOES have to get approval from the FCC. In fact, lots of the early Zune rumor info (including the fact the Zune was based on a Toshiba GigaBeat) came from Microsoft's FCC filings.

Oops. I forgot about the squirting.

surferfromuk
Feb 4, 2007, 05:36 AM
You know I've been thinking a lot lately about the Microsoft and Apple partnership and I've done some research and I now think this really is a story about two kids who together decided they were going to carve up the entire planet. The cross-patent deal from '97 proves this agreement is still in play. This is why Vista is a clone of OS X - not because they copied but because that was the deal which guaranteed Apple's survival. Apple has a lot to be grateful for, but the deal ended in 2002. Now Apple's out on it's own two legs running quickly - winning the world over by it's own merits. Let's be happy consumers and let people make their choices. I don't think the Zune phone is anything to worry about - in fact it's great news.

ezekielrage_99
Feb 5, 2007, 12:45 AM
From a reality point of view I don't see how M$ could compete, the last few M$ releases haven't sold nearly as well as you'd expect.

Vista, Zunes and 360 haven't really made any huge impacts interms of how the competition are handling the releases. To M$'s credit they are trying to diversify there product from really just selling Office and Windows.

The M$ of old has had it's glory days and it's companies like Samsung that will take over.

scorley22
Feb 6, 2007, 12:06 AM
Bottom line is... Apple innovates, Micrapsoft copies. It makes me laugh every time I see them release a carbon copy version of a mac product or software. It takes years and years for Apple to come out with the iPhone because Steve Jobs says it HAS to be perfect, and after an initial meeting... MS says that their version will be out in less than a year. That should be entertaining. I'm really happy to see that Apple has so many patents on the iPhone though... it will make it that much harder for them to Xerox it. Wonder how they can sleep at night knowing that they their whole lifes work is the equivalent of cheating on a test in grade school. :apple:

maverick18x
Feb 6, 2007, 12:34 AM
MS can handle the faster turn around since that dont have to think up new features.

They didn't have to think up any new features for Vista, and that still took them 6 years. :-P