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MacRumors
Feb 7, 2007, 10:42 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Appleinsider reports (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=2473) that Apple will be increasing their direct marketing against Microsoft's Vista operating system with Apple Store materials:

The campaign, set to get underway this Saturday, will include new store displays and employee t-shirts gently mocking Vista as little more than a washed-up attempt at a modern operating system, those familiar with the matter say.

The training materials specifically focus on the cost and confusion of upgrading to Vista, alongside direct comparisons with Apple's Mac OS X.

Apple's recent television ad campaign (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/02/06/new-security-get-a-mac-ad-targets-vista/) has also been directly targeted at Microsoft's Vista operating system.



Blue Velvet
Feb 7, 2007, 10:43 AM
Time to dish some FUD the other way for a change...

janstett
Feb 7, 2007, 10:44 AM
Thus resurface the snarky jabs that made me stay away from the Macintosh for over a decaded.

roland.g
Feb 7, 2007, 10:44 AM
That's great, but the best anti-vista marketing would be a release of Leopard.

Or at least a date.

notjustjay
Feb 7, 2007, 10:45 AM
Yeah, I've always felt the best way to switch a non-Mac user is to show them what's so nice about using a Mac, not belittle their current choice of operating system.

xli_ne
Feb 7, 2007, 10:45 AM
That's great, but the best anti-vista marketing would be a release of Leopard.

Or at least a date.

very true

Queso
Feb 7, 2007, 10:47 AM
Yeah, I've always felt the best way to switch a non-Mac user is to show them what's so nice about using a Mac, not belittle their current choice of operating system.
But Vista isn't their current choice of OS. It looks and acts completely differently to XP. And unlike 10 years ago XP can now run on a Mac.

MacBoobsPro
Feb 7, 2007, 10:48 AM
Yeah, I've always felt the best way to switch a non-Mac user is to show them what's so nice about using a Mac, not belittle their current choice of operating system.

You may find this campaign is a two pronged attack. Once Leopard is released then they can start promoting what it can do.

Mocking Vista is kind of like launching a pre strike bombardment of the beaches.

Peace
Feb 7, 2007, 10:48 AM
Well this explains this photo :D

http://www.life2point0.com/images/billsteve_1.jpg

Fotek2001
Feb 7, 2007, 10:49 AM
All this bickering and name calling is getting really old. A good product should be able to stand up on its own and pointing fingers and making snarky comments is simply asking for trouble IMHO.

lamadude
Feb 7, 2007, 10:49 AM
I hate apples marketing, they are so full of themselves.
Im thinking about switching to ubuntu as soon as it's fully supported for my macbook.

iJon
Feb 7, 2007, 10:54 AM
All this bickering and name calling is getting really old. A good product should be able to stand up on its own and pointing fingers and making snarky comments is simply asking for trouble IMHO.

All good products come with some comparing marketing. Bud vs Miller, Cable vs Satellite, Pringles, vs Lays, etc. Apple is simplying setting people up to rethink their OS purchase and come check out a Mac. Apple knows that Mac OS X is that good that all it takes is to get someone to use it and it's safe to say Microsoft has lost a customer for life. If Apple doesn't compete and exploit flaws in their competitor then only current Mac users will continue to use Macs.

As much as you people think Apple is full of themselves and lying, they aren't. I see customers every day who love these commercials and fully agree and relate to every one of them. These are also the same people who are ECSTATIC about taking home a new Mac.

Bring on the Vista campaign, if Microsoft has such a good product than they shouldn't have to worry.

jon

RichP
Feb 7, 2007, 10:55 AM
BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD Marketing idea!

Never directly confront a competitor that is so much larger than you head-on. All Apple has to do is keep releasing hardware and OS's that are strong enough to speak for themselves.

Lets anger MS some more, maybe they will pull the plug on Office then, as they did with IE and Windoze Media. (which although I dont really like any of those products, they are necessary evils. If MS ever dropped Office, alot of us would be forced to become "switch-back-ers"

Dunepilot
Feb 7, 2007, 10:55 AM
A/B comparison shows that Apple is confident in its product. When you only have a small market share, that's what you have to do, and being proud/boastful is in the nature of a company that is increasingly modelled on Jobs himself. This is a good thing, I say.

Peace
Feb 7, 2007, 10:56 AM
BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD Marketing idea!

Never directly confront a competitor that is so much larger than you head-on. All Apple has to do is keep releasing hardware and OS's that are strong enough to speak for themselves.

Lets anger MS some more, maybe they will pull the plug on Office then, as they did with IE and Windoze Media. (which although I dont really like any of those products, they are necessary evils. If MS ever dropped Office, alot of us would be forced to become "switch-back-ers"

Unless Apple was coming out with an Apple Office app ;)

reckless_0001
Feb 7, 2007, 10:59 AM
BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD Marketing idea!

Never directly confront a competitor that is so much larger than you head-on. All Apple has to do is keep releasing hardware and OS's that are strong enough to speak for themselves.

Lets anger MS some more, maybe they will pull the plug on Office then, as they did with IE and Windoze Media. (which although I dont really like any of those products, they are necessary evils. If MS ever dropped Office, alot of us would be forced to become "switch-back-ers"

You can still use Codeweavers CrossOver to run Windows programs like MS Office in Mac OS X. We'd survive :D

http://www.codeweavers.com/products/cxmac/

sunfast
Feb 7, 2007, 11:00 AM
This sort of behaviour disappoints me and does nothing to help the perceived smugness of mac users. I was detered from the Mac by what I considered their superiority complex and it was only when I eventually tried the product that I changed my mind.

Queso
Feb 7, 2007, 11:01 AM
BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD Marketing idea!

Never directly confront a competitor that is so much larger than you head-on. All Apple has to do is keep releasing hardware and OS's that are strong enough to speak for themselves.
You're forgetting that Microsoft just released Vista in a blaze of publicity showing how they'd innovated all those new features. Most people out there will believe that publicity unless Apple hammer the point home that OSX had them first.

I don't want to be having that argument with people again as to why Microsoft didn't come up with "that feature" when Windows users start slagging off my Mac. I'm tired of that conversation. With a couple of months of careful marketing now, Apple can ensure I don't have to.

UKFletch
Feb 7, 2007, 11:04 AM
I am disgusted.. very childish....

I hope that the t-shirts say "Cancel or Allow" on them!

Sorry... s******....


Fletch

Rocketman
Feb 7, 2007, 11:05 AM
Well this explains this photo :D

Peace, you crack me up.

Microsoft HATES real competition, so watch for backlash.

Rocketman

Stella
Feb 7, 2007, 11:06 AM
Unless Apple was coming out with an Apple Office app ;)

It won't be Microsoft Office. That is the killer app.

andiwm2003
Feb 7, 2007, 11:06 AM
they'd better release leopard and show things that are standard functionality on os x but can't be done with vista at all. that would attract people.

iomar
Feb 7, 2007, 11:09 AM
This is stupid. This is getting really old and it is no longer fun. We know mac is a good oprating system but it is time to stop macing fun of Microsoft. Since macs are better lets find another way to convert PC users not by macing fun of them. Instead show them what mac is and not hat microsoft is not.

frozencarbonite
Feb 7, 2007, 11:09 AM
I don't like the idea of companies bashing other companies to advertise.

I say just advertise your product's strength and let the customer decide in the end which product they would rather buy.

This whole get a mac campaign has turned into something I do not agree with. It's nothing but Windows bashing now.

gkarris
Feb 7, 2007, 11:11 AM
Well this explains this photo :D

Just for fun:

Look, Steve, eventually my system will be on all your computers...

RandomTox
Feb 7, 2007, 11:12 AM
:eek: Agreed 100% :eek:

That's great, but the best anti-vista marketing would be a release of Leopard.

Or at least a date.

reckless_0001
Feb 7, 2007, 11:15 AM
Well this explains this photo :D
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u208/reckless_0001/billsteve_1.jpg

-----------------
Steve: I like Windows this much.
Bill: I love it 5 times more.
-----------------
Steve: Look Bill, you're not having my dessert.
Bill: I'm.. gonna... get it....
-----------------

jettredmont
Feb 7, 2007, 11:15 AM
This sort of behaviour disappoints me and does nothing to help the perceived smugness of mac users. I was detered from the Mac by what I considered their superiority complex and it was only when I eventually tried the product that I changed my mind.

It always strikes me as odd that someone would base something as fundamental as the computer they use on an image of other people using that tool. It reeks of a grade school mentality.

IMHO, Apple should be "smug" (if that's what you need to call it), and they should back that smugness up with a "this is how you do <X>" second wave of advertising when Leopard comes out (or even now using Tiger as the comparison). As others have pointed out, the only time you shy away from competitive comparisons are:

1. When you have the market sown up, and so mention of the competition is publicity for the competition
2. When you have serious issues in your product which pale in comparison to the minor issues you are pointing at in the competition

Apple is definitely not in the first area, and I don't see how the second applies to them. A direct attack on Vista flaws is certainly justified and, quite frankly, expected from a marketing perspective. As for timing, a direct attack is generally most effective:

1. When the competition is touting an advance or new version
2. Before bringing your own new version out which leapfrogs the competition in the critical areas.

Again, perfect timing here for Apple to go on the offense. Counters MS in a news cycle that they would otherwise own, and has the potential to grow into a major positive campaign on the release of Leopard.

akadmon
Feb 7, 2007, 11:15 AM
I'm adding my voice to those you have said this is a bad idea. Emphasize the strong points of the Mac OS (by implication the shortfalls of Vista), but don't go around badmouthing & ridiculing the competion. This is what weak, desparate companies do -- Apple!

Doctor Q
Feb 7, 2007, 11:16 AM
I don't like the anti-Vista anti-Windows anti-PC theme. I supposed Apple's market research tells them this is the way to go, but I can't help thinking that showing the positives of Macs, Mac OS X, and the iApps would be a better approach.

After all, most people encounter or use Windows at home, work, or school. It's hard to find somebody who has never used a computer and is deciding between Windows and Mac OS X. Why make a PC user feel bad about what they're using or have used before, as if guilt or feeling stupid will make them eager to switch? Why not show them something they'll want to use: iLife, iWork, Exposé, Spotlight, Dashboard, and so on?

Even when it's justifiable to make the "we invented it and they stole it" point, and fun for us to see that message being spread, should it really matter to a consumer? If you can do fast local searching of your PC or Mac now, who cares who had it first? Consumers are interested in what's best for them, not in choosing sides between corporations. So show features and functionality, or the joy of using a Mac, rather than throwing stones.

One exception: Windows users hate viruses. It's a known negative, not something that takes work to convince people about. Playing the "virus card" is reasonable for Apple.

vincebio
Feb 7, 2007, 11:16 AM
Well this explains this photo :D

BG 'man, you must have big balls do to what your doing to us in public'
SJ 'yeah, about this size actually... but its coz your stuff is so ****'

vincebio
Feb 7, 2007, 11:19 AM
I supposed Apple's market research tells them this is the way to go, but I can't help thinking that showing the positives of Macs, Mac OS X, and the iApps would be a better approach.



problem is they have done that, and to a certain extent it has worked, but they need a new attack to get those numbers rising more....shock tactics are risky but can work.

i think apple is much better placed to handle anything microsoft gives them back this time round than way back in the day....

my only bad feeling is that we just give the PC'ers more of a chance to accuse mac users of being smug.....and we are, but its coz our stuff works.


let the war begin

gkarris
Feb 7, 2007, 11:20 AM
Well this explains this photo :D

More fun:

Steve: The time it takes to learn an Apple computer is this...

Bill: I don't know about Windows, but I make them pay for the same one five times...

twoodcc
Feb 7, 2007, 11:21 AM
That's great, but the best anti-vista marketing would be a release of Leopard.

Or at least a date.

now that would be nice.

but either way, i like this idea. i think it just might work!

mrgreen4242
Feb 7, 2007, 11:23 AM
I hate apples marketing, they are so full of themselves.
Im thinking about switching to ubuntu as soon as it's fully supported for my macbook.

Then why did you

1) Buy a MacBook at all?
2) Join this site 3 weeks ago?

age234
Feb 7, 2007, 11:23 AM
I don't understand what the hubbub is about. Comparing yourself with competitors is a cornerstone of advertising. If people are satisfied with what they have they'll never buy your product. Make them dissatisfied, that's how the game is played.

Especially if you're the little guy by far, you have to come out swinging.

shelterpaw
Feb 7, 2007, 11:27 AM
I hate apples marketing, they are so full of themselves.
Im thinking about switching to ubuntu as soon as it's fully supported for my macbook.
Ubuntu is great, but it's not even close to as good as OS X. I have both and I enjoy using Ubuntu but it falls short in a lot of categories. So many of those little apps just don't work well and aren't user friendly enough. Just as an example: It was a pain in the neck installing a proper wireless connection application, but it works. I pray I don't have to do it over again.

With regards to Apple bashing Vista, it's just marketing. It's pushing people's buttons, which may not be a bad thing. Someone has to tout that there's a better alternative than Microsoft and it seems like Apple's play nice strategy hasn't done much for them, so why not attack them head on.

jettredmont
Feb 7, 2007, 11:27 AM
Even when it's justifiable to make the "we invented it and they stole it" point, and fun for us to see that message being spread, should it really matter to a consumer? If you can do fast local searching of your PC or Mac now, who cares who had it first? Consumers are interested in what's best for them, not in choosing sides between corporations. So show features and functionality, or the joy of using a Mac, rather than throwing stones.


How about, "We invented Quartz Extreme five years ago and have had time to perfect it", or "We had local search two years ago and so it is supported by <X>% of all Mac applications and file types", or "The authentication mechanism we've had in OS X since 2001 is far superior to the nagging UAC in Vista".

Take your pick, but there are distinct advantages, from a today's-customer perspective, to having had such a huge head start on these and other key technologies. Yes, saying, "But we had it first!" won't win any arguments, but having not seen the new campaign I'm not going to assume that that's what Apple would do.

Cinch
Feb 7, 2007, 11:29 AM
I did a search on Amazon, and their are 23 different choices to choose from when you want to buy Vista. Microsoft must have hired marketing geniuses from AOL to do their selling:D .

The product developement of Vista wasn't headed by a creative and imaginative team of software engineers, rather it was headed by MBA hacks. Is this good for the shareholder? Innovation is always prefered IMHO.

Cinch

Marble
Feb 7, 2007, 11:29 AM
If these new ads are going to be as "gentle" as the television spots, there's really nothing to worry about.

Queso
Feb 7, 2007, 11:30 AM
After all, most people encounter or use Windows at home, work, or school. It's hard to find somebody who has never used a computer and is deciding between Windows and Mac OS X. Why make a PC user feel bad about what they're using or have used before, as if guilt or feeling stupid will make them eager to switch?
But that's exactly why Apple have to do this now. The press are screaming from all directions that Vista is not the Windows you know. Others are pointing out how it doesn't work on their hardware and complaining that the only way to upgrade is to buy a new machine. Windows users look at it and don't see it as the XP they're comfortable with. If Apple tried this tactic in early 2008 it would be taken as insulting the customers, since many of them by that point would have chosen to continue with Microsoft. Right now they are attacking an unknown quantity, something that most people are already a little unsure about.

Without the doubt, the customers will never look at OSX. They have to be interested in it before they'll stay long enough to see what it can do.

dontmatter
Feb 7, 2007, 11:35 AM
Bad idea apple. Negative advertizing just makes you look like an *******. An ******* who doesn't have anything exciting of his own to talk about, so just trash talks others instead.

Vista actually isn't all that bad. Apple's rep is great. Apparently, apple thinks it can change vista, but all it can do is change it's own reputation.

Not cool. So middleschool!

psingh01
Feb 7, 2007, 11:37 AM
Apple ought to be selling Vista to those that want to run it under bootcamp!

BobP63
Feb 7, 2007, 11:38 AM
Personally I think the “Get a Mac” ad campaign is spot-on. The number one issue I encounter when people say they are hesitant to switch to Mac is the learning curve required to switch from Windows; now Vista introduces a learning curve regardless. This is a golden opportunity for Apple to capitalize on the latest Windows update to increase market share, and I say go for it.

alywa
Feb 7, 2007, 11:38 AM
It's been said, but to add my $.02...

The best way to counter Vista is to get Leopard out the door (well, as soon as it is ready). Talking smack about a competitor justs makes people run in the other direction.

Besides, Vista may end up being a good thing for Apple. Lots of people will want to upgrade computers now that Vista is out, and since Macs are the only ones that will run both OSX and Vista, that may encourage more switchers.

Anyway, I hope Apple takes the high road on this one. Their products speak for themselves.

iJon
Feb 7, 2007, 11:38 AM
I'm adding my voice to those you have said this is a bad idea. Emphasize the strong points of the Mac OS (by implication the shortfalls of Vista), but don't go around badmouthing & ridiculing the competion. This is what weak, desparate companies do -- Apple!

How can you reach your target market if you don't address the issues people have with their own computers. People need a reason to switch to Mac. It's a very big deal and a very big step for a consumer to ditch what they have known all their life and switch to a new platform.

May I ask what strong points would you like to address that Apple doesn't do already. When Apple is poking fun at Microsoft it is because it's TRUE. They do have viruses, they do have spyware, software doesn't work smoothly, people HATE their Windows machines. When a commercial comes on television and tells them that a Mac doesn't have these problems then it is a god send to that consumer.

People may hate these commercials but I will tell you that the average Windows user relates to these commercials and finds them true and funny at the same time. Go look at Apple's 10-K filing this past quarter and tell me this ad campaign isn't working.

jon

TheBobcat
Feb 7, 2007, 11:39 AM
MS does not play nice. Why should Apple?

The average people (say some 70% of that 90%) probably don't even know what OS X can do better than Windows if you were to ask (given they even knew what it was). Apple needs to appeal to average people about why their product is better, and they need to attack Windows to do that. You think GM isn't going to mention the Ford car, if theirs performed better in crash tests?

It's success will depend on how tasteful Apple is, as I think there is a line, but the average people need to have it spelled out to the them that there are better alternatives than Vista. And thats the crowd that Apple really has a chance with anyway.

em5photog
Feb 7, 2007, 11:40 AM
I think that it shows apple is worried that Vista is huge leap over xp and poises a real threat to OSX and why people switch to Apple. I also think why we have not seen 10.5 is that there was not enough wow factor yet to show up vista that the went back to add more that is why there were secret features so could add more with out looking like vista was better so they had to add more. I have put vista on my macbook pro and played around with it a little and from what I seen I do like it . I like the fact the widgets are always on the side or I can detach them and move them anywhere . I will not switch back to windows just because of vista I love mac and osx but I think vista has some of the features that made osx great and vista right does some better . I think the best way for apple to compete is not to put down vista but to show it up with 10.5 and the features and stability speak for them selves .
my 2 cents

weitzner
Feb 7, 2007, 11:41 AM
I feel like the spirit of the campaign won't be "look at how much vista sucks" but rather more like "vista isn't new, we've been enjoying these features for a long time now. and since you'll probably have to buy a new computer to actually run vista with the effects on, you may as well check out a mac and be at the forefront of consumer OSes"

Xavier
Feb 7, 2007, 11:41 AM
Seems a little immature to me. But it is a marketing strategy

shelterpaw
Feb 7, 2007, 11:42 AM
Vista actually isn't all that bad.
Well everyone is entitled to their opinion. I've read more negatives from Windows die hards than positives. Most people are saying to wait for the service pack and stick with XP for a while. Not that the same wasn't said for the first release of OS X, but many professionals feel that Vista is behind OS X and therefore Apple should take the opportunity to gain market share. If this gets people interested, then great. If it backfires, then lesson learned.

shigzeo
Feb 7, 2007, 11:45 AM
just get leapard to us on time and in good shape. i care less about other os's at all. quit pulling on the shirtstrings of microsoft apple, they are not your concern...

veritas14
Feb 7, 2007, 11:46 AM
Apple's commercials are no different than any other company who is trying to show that their product is better. Except that they are targeting a specific product from a specific company, however, what other product and company are they going to market against? There is no competition other than Windows/Vista and OSX. I say theres no shame in what Apple is doing commercial wise. As for making new displays and T-shirts that supposedly are going to put down Vista, well Apple has always been creative with their products, and marketing. So I dont think it will be a flat-out Vista sucks, but more of a Vista does this...but we have this...

Also, why would Apple start putting up anti-vista marketing in Apple stores, without releasing Leopord? It doesnt make sense that they would advertise Tiger as being better, when they could just wait a bit and advertise Leopord.

I feel Leopord is just around the corner....

TheBobcat
Feb 7, 2007, 11:47 AM
quit pulling on the shirtstrings of microsoft apple, they are not your concern...

Ummm.....actually they are. Microsoft is a direct competitor on all fronts, except the actual computers themselves.

UKFletch
Feb 7, 2007, 11:47 AM
Well this explains this photo :D

Bill : ...no Really! she took off her top, and they were this big!
Steve : And that is why we are friends, Bill... Big Kahoonas!

ericsthename
Feb 7, 2007, 11:48 AM
If these new ads are going to be as "gentle" as the television spots, there's really nothing to worry about.


I agree... I'm against negative campaigning, but there still are tasteful ways to point out discrepancies. I think people are just assuming too quickly that this is going to be a bash-a-thon.


Wait till the facts emerge, then judge.

iJawn108
Feb 7, 2007, 11:48 AM
There is a time and a place for it... such as the WWDC :D

But I don't think they need to keep using it for advertising.
You know what made me switch? being sick of windows, sick of malware scans, sick of anti virus, sick of a 6 year old operating system. My friends who want to switch say they will not because os x is better, but because when they come home they are sick of windows and don't even enjoy using the net it at home anymore.

Apple it's time for you to do a "spice up your elife" compaign.

Digital Skunk
Feb 7, 2007, 11:49 AM
I think this is a bad move for Apple. The 'get a mac' ads were already getting a bit too annoying and now the cronies at the retail stores are going to start telling people how much Vista sucks. I think they were doing just fine already. Window's inferiority was already apparent with Windows 2000 and ME. Why beat a dead horse.

I (as in myself) think that this will only annoy certain customers. The PC world already thinks of us as a cult (which we are in a way) and we are very smug and arrogant with our machines. We already urge people to switch to the Mac like Jehovahs Witnesses, now the retails stores are being told what to say and how to compare the two OSes.:confused: It was done before, but now that it is being pushed by corporate persons, I think it may be too much.

alexf
Feb 7, 2007, 11:51 AM
Although I'm no Microsoft fan, I've never been a fan of smear campaigns. It just makes Apple look bad (and like just another big typical corporation, which they have unfortunately become).

wordmunger
Feb 7, 2007, 11:51 AM
The point is this:

If you're considering the switch to Vista, why not consider a switch to a Mac? Vista probably won't run on your existing computer, and if it does, it will be expensive and slow.

When you upgrade to Vista, not everything will work -- for example, iTunes (though we are working on a patch).

By contrast, you can get a BRAND NEW Mac that looks good, runs iLife, and even MS Office. Switching certainly will be easier than the upgrade to Vista. There's never been a better time to switch to Mac.

Spritey
Feb 7, 2007, 11:52 AM
I play games on my computer, and I honestly don't need Apple to make feel like an idiot for walking into my Apple store buying a Vista upgrade to run with boot camp so that I can play games that I cannot play in OSX. (My uni's computer store is an Apple store/comp store)

If Apple's going to use this type of immature politician-level advertising strategy, at least perhaps it should ensure that its OS can run on any brand of computer. A lot of people cannot afford macs ($600 Dells are quite popular), and unless they're computer savvy and know about Linux, well, they're stuck with a Vista version of some sort.

(And before you say: well macbook's are affordable: well, if you're even considering buying a $600 computer, $450 to upgrade to a macbook is A LOT of money. Also, the $600 computer people probably won't need iLife and Garageband++, which is often used to justify the higher price of macs).

If they want to steal Vista's thunder and customers: Release Leopard and stop whining. And to play devil's advocate for a sec: If :apple: REALLY wants to compete with Microsoft: try releasing an OS compatible with all computer manufacturers so that the other 95% at least has the OPTION to install it ---> Which takes us into a coooooompletely different discussion on some other thread I believe.

gollum
Feb 7, 2007, 11:52 AM
Maybe we should wait until the actual campaign gets underway before we rush to judgement !!!

lukeisme09
Feb 7, 2007, 11:56 AM
r u kidding me they need to send out leopard and not worry about microsoft:mad:

Turkish
Feb 7, 2007, 11:58 AM
You're all basically wrong.

Most PC users are just dying for an excuse to hate Microsoft and Windows. They don't view Mac users as "Cult Like" or "uppity."

Many of the times I've been in our local store and listened in on "switchers" buying a new machine, they are willing to learn a whole new OS, buy new applications and spend a significant amount of time and money switching platforms. The most common complaint: "We've had it with PC's - get us out of this mess."

Vista represents an easy excuse for many potential new Mac customers to put off buying a Mac by upgrading their OS thinking that Vists will change their PC experience.

Apple must counter this head on.

TheBobcat
Feb 7, 2007, 11:58 AM
If Apple's going to use this type of immature politician-level advertising strategy, at least perhaps it should ensure that its OS can run on any brand of computer. A lot of people cannot afford macs ($600 Dells are quite popular)

(And before you say: well macbook's are affordable: well, if you're even considering buying a $600 computer, $450 to upgrade to a macbook is A LOT of money. Also, the $600 computer people probably won't need iLife and Garageband++, which is often used to justify the higher price of macs).

If they want to steal Vista's thunder and customers: Release Leopard and stop whining. And to play devil's advocate for a sec: If :apple: REALLY wants to compete with Microsoft: try releasing an OS compatible with all computer manufacturers so that the other 95% at least has the OPTION to install it ---> Which takes us into a coooooompletely different discussion on some other thread I believe.

Really? I can't seem to think of any in recent past.

Queso
Feb 7, 2007, 11:59 AM
When you upgrade to Vista, not everything will work -- for example, iTunes (though we are working on a patch).
Now that was a FUD tactic. Apple deliberately ensured that iTunes wouldn't work on Vista to begin with. What better way to get a message over that it might break some of your applications.

matthew24
Feb 7, 2007, 12:01 PM
You must point the negatives about your competitor, because of it's large market share, people think the mediocre quality of Windows is just normal. You do need some strong persuasion to wake people from their conditioned slumber.
It is sad that Apple has to use this method but showing that your product is just better is not enough because of this collective 'blindness'.
I fear there is no other way, somehow in certain areas people just fear rational thinking.

Spritey
Feb 7, 2007, 12:01 PM
And to play devil's advocate for a sec: If :apple: REALLY wants to compete with Microsoft: try releasing an OS compatible with all computer manufacturers so that the other 95% at least has the OPTION to install it ---> Which takes us into a coooooompletely different discussion on some other thread I believe.

Really? I can't seem to think of any in recent past.


Hmm just wild guessing... Seriously, no thread discussing pro/cons of OSX running on more than just Apple computers?

Time to start one perhaps

dukeblue91
Feb 7, 2007, 12:04 PM
I don't see a problem with this, since they are doing it at the stores.
Let's face it, the people that come to the Apple store are coming there for a reason, either they are curious or fed up with windows and looking to change something.
Having a few T-shirts and posters up that say Vista sucks and is a bad implemented copy of Tiger won't make a difference, other than reminding people why they came to the store in the first place.

justflie
Feb 7, 2007, 12:05 PM
Now that was a FUD tactic. Apple deliberately ensured that iTunes wouldn't work on Vista to begin with. What better way to get a message over that it might break some of your applications.
It's certainly possible that this was the case, but then again, a bunch of my programs didn't work when I tried installing vista (most notably my antivirus). But whatever, vista doesn't even run/look that good in Paralells in anyways since there's no 3d hardware acceleration (yet).

spicyapple
Feb 7, 2007, 12:12 PM
This sort of behaviour disappoints me and does nothing to help the perceived smugness of mac users. I was detered from the Mac by what I considered their superiority complex and it was only when I eventually tried the product that I changed my mind.

So are you a smug mac user now?

Everything Apple tried in the past hasn't really been effective in getting people to switch to the Mac, so this apparent change in marketing tactics is welcome and I think will get more people to consider buying Apple machines.

Mac users are indeed smug sons o' beeotches... can't help what is true. :)

Spritey
Feb 7, 2007, 12:13 PM
I don't see a problem with this, since they are doing it at the stores.
Let's face it, the people that come to the Apple store are coming there for a reason, either they are curious or fed up with windows and looking to change something.
Having a few T-shirts and posters up that say Vista sucks and is a bad implemented copy of Tiger won't make a difference, other than reminding people why they came to the store in the first place.


They could be coming to look at iPods...?



Or my Apple store sells Dells, Toshibas, Fujitsu-Siemens, MS Office and many, many other computer related things... both apple and non-apple.

BKF
Feb 7, 2007, 12:15 PM
I'm only hopping on the comment bandwagon here in case there's someone from Apple marketing counting the replies. As someone who's only ever used Apples and who wants the best for the company, my feeling about the coming campaign is, come on, guys! Easy on the obnoxiousness. The ocassional "Redmond, start your copiers" is all well and good, but a little goes a long way. Can't the company project a deserved confidence in the machinery and the OS without begin so... snarky?

EagerDragon
Feb 7, 2007, 12:16 PM
That's great, but the best anti-vista marketing would be a release of Leopard.

Or at least a date.

And a Demo to show the customer that if they wait just a few months they will get not only all the features of Tiger, but also the new ones in Leopard.

It would also help to start selling Mac's with a Leopard for free voucher as we are close to release anyway.

KingofAwesome
Feb 7, 2007, 12:18 PM
A lot of people cannot afford macs ($600 Dells are quite popular), and unless they're computer savvy and know about Linux, well, they're stuck with a Vista version of some sort.

(And before you say: well macbook's are affordable: well, if you're even considering buying a $600 computer, $450 to upgrade to a macbook is A LOT of money. Also, the $600 computer people probably won't need iLife and Garageband++, which is often used to justify the higher price of macs).


You know Mac Mini's are only $600, right? They're not the fastest machines of course, but neither is the $600 Dell.

jonharris200
Feb 7, 2007, 12:18 PM
To be fair to Apple, when the competition is almost a monopoly, it's almost impossible to promote your strengths without a direct comparison to the only other major competitor, namely Microsoft.

However, like others on this thread, I am concerned that Apple's confidence doesn't become an arrogant swagger. There's a fine line that's not to be crossed and it's somewhere just about her...

bigmc6000
Feb 7, 2007, 12:20 PM
Look at current advertising trends. This is how the little guy beats the big guy. Look at the Alltel commercials - it's exactly the same thing and guess what - IT WORKS! There's a company around here called MetroPCS that does the same thing (Pay by the Month - not the Minute). This is what the little guy has to do to convince the masses that are already hopelessly addicted to the "norm." It doesn't matter if we, the Mac faithful, get annoyed by these constant antics - the people these advertising campaigns are aimed at are people who don't know about all the previous MS bashing. And this isn't about "what you're doing now is stupid", it's about "not so fast with upgrading to Vista - we can get you Vista Plus right now and in 4 months we can get you the REAL Vista Extreme" ;) And seriously - $129 for the next OS is really, really cheap compared to that Vista Extreme option - even the upgrade for that matter. So everybody just simmer down - this campaign isn't for us...

-R7-
Feb 7, 2007, 12:22 PM
What's this -for us to win Microsoft doesn't have to lose- stuff i vaguely remember. What the hell, man? :rolleyes:

EagerDragon
Feb 7, 2007, 12:22 PM
I hate apples marketing, they are so full of themselves.
Im thinking about switching to ubuntu as soon as it's fully supported for my macbook.

Sorry you are stuck having to use OSX, Ubuntu should be ready for you very soon. If you are not happy, Ubuntu is not a bad choice.

thugpoet22
Feb 7, 2007, 12:23 PM
Let the mud slinging begin LOL. Well i guess this is normal. I agree, with most here, that apple makes great products. But Apple has to some how reach further into conscious of the majority. Preaching quality and ease of use isn't enough i assume. To beat the competition your first have to destroy their creditability. And with this new Windows OS being release in such a haphazard way, apple is grasping this prime opportunity to demean the use of windows vista. I think this in turn might cause more people to see the inferiority of the windows OS. But in a sense it shows who's on top because usually the company on top is the ones that's being attacked.

This is typical of any company that's trying to get ahead in America. There are a lot of people who buy computers based on hype or what they have heard or see on TV. Few people actually do research and look and computer specs. I truthfully just hoping that Apple doesn't loose its essence or its quality in this pursuit.

dernhelm
Feb 7, 2007, 12:23 PM
There are a lot of complaints against this ad campaign as being immature. In case you've forgotten, there were a lot of IBM compatible PC's in the day would refer to Apple machines as "toys" that no real computer aficionado would ever use. I attended many different conferences run by M$ executives that would bash Apple on a regular basis. Don't think this is the first time that a computer company would poke at its competition a little. Most of M$ FUD is a lot more immature than than anything I've seen from Apple.

The Vista ad that they produced raised guffaws from people where I work that would never even consider buying a mac. That ad was just plain funny because it was really true, and just drove directly to the heart of the stupidity that Microsoft cannot seemingly escape. And if Apple couldn't find some way to poke fun at that, I'd really be worried about their marketing department.

Apple has a unique opportunity to jump on a lot of market-share, and I for one applaud them for being as aggressive about it as possible. For a ton of people, upgrading Windows will mean either upgrading their hardware, or simply buying new hardware. Apple can now say, hey, you're buying new hardware anyway, maybe now is the time to consider upgrading to a mac instead. They have compelling software, no scary viruses (or at least none in the wild) and their hardware will work seamlessly with other hardware you already own (iPod). If slamming Vista around a little (justifiably in my opinion) helps people to see the light, they should be doing it.

lamadude
Feb 7, 2007, 12:27 PM
I hate apples marketing, they are so full of themselves.
Im thinking about switching to ubuntu as soon as it's fully supported for my macbook.

Then why did you

1) Buy a MacBook at all?
2) Join this site 3 weeks ago?

1)I bought a Macbook because I like the design and I wanted to try mac os x out. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great OS, (don't like the finder, but the rest is great)
It just annoys me the way apple portrays windows, I used it for years and it never crashed or did anything those apple ads make you believe it does.
I just really really hate the ads, that's all.
Like when people here complain about Vista touting features as "new" when they already existed in Mac Os X, so what? They didn't exist in windows. I don't see anyone complaining that when apple is marketing "spaces" for leopard it presents it as a brand new feature as well.

2)I only registered 3 weeks ago because I only got my macbook 3 weeks ago, I've been reading the site for years though, I just never felt like posting anything, since I didn't have a mac yet

I just really really don't like the ads, so much that it even makes me want to switch OS again, I know that it is ridiculous. I probably won't completely switch to ubuntu, but dual booting would be nice (waiting for the final release of Feisty Fawn)

Rocketman
Feb 7, 2007, 12:27 PM
In marketing you have to engender a level of discomfort to enforce a switch. But you not only have to pry the rock loose, you have to roll it down the hill.

So far Apple is relying on "mindshare and buzz" for the rolling portion and advertising for the pry loose portion.

I would strongly suggest they make maybe 20 youtube videos of feature comparisons and refer to a link to those videos in an apple ad showing, say, the relative experience with viruses and spam.

Computer prospects love youtube.

Rocketman

nagromme
Feb 7, 2007, 12:27 PM
Don't forget that "gently mocking Vista as little more than a washed-up attempt" is some unknown person re-filtered through AI--it does not reflect the actual specifics of what Apple is planning. The article's actual specifics that follow that loaded language don't support the negative assumptions many have about this store campaign.

Although I'm no Microsoft fan, I've never been a fan of smear campaigns. It just makes Apple look bad (and like just another big typical corporation, which they have unfortunately become).

Thus resurface the snarky jabs that made me stay away from the Macintosh for over a decaded.

Yeah, I've always felt the best way to switch a non-Mac user is to show them what's so nice about using a Mac, not belittle their current choice of operating system.

All this bickering and name calling is getting really old. A good product should be able to stand up on its own and pointing fingers and making snarky comments is simply asking for trouble IMHO.

This sort of behaviour disappoints me and does nothing to help the perceived smugness of mac users. I was detered from the Mac by what I considered their superiority complex and it was only when I eventually tried the product that I changed my mind.

I think this is a bad move for Apple. The 'get a mac' ads were already getting a bit too annoying and now the cronies at the retail stores are going to start telling people how much Vista sucks. I think they were doing just fine already. Window's inferiority was already apparent with Windows 2000 and ME. Why beat a dead horse.

I hate apples marketing, they are so full of themselves.
Im thinking about switching to ubuntu as soon as it's fully supported for my macbook.


Did people read something in that article that I missed? :D The only specific mentioned was "Go Beyond Vista"--and general mention of discussion many Mac positives, like iLife.

Where is Apple telling people that "Vista sucks?" (which would of course be a legitimate sales message--if phrased more constructively, such as with humor and an emphasis on what Macs do better).

Or are people commenting about the TV ads and not about this article at all? (Oddly enough, the first Get a Mac TV ad that did NOT intensely annoy me was this last security-agent one. I actually found it humorous for once--and humor is a GREAT way to point out flaws in a competitor that so many people assume is the ONLY choice until their view is finally shaken up.)

Apple may be readying store employees to deliver a "snarky smear campaign," but I don't see the evidence yet to assume that.

Maybe we should wait until the actual campaign gets underway before we rush to judgement !!!

Madness! :p

JGowan
Feb 7, 2007, 12:27 PM
All good products come with some comparing marketing. Bud vs Miller, Cable vs Satellite, Pringles, vs Lays, etc. Apple is simplying setting people up to rethink their OS purchase and come check out a Mac.I agree, Jon. Most of the time, companies will say "We're better than the competition." In the case of OS (a few stragglers aside), Apple's competition is MS.

I don't even think that Apple ever says WINDOWS or XP or VISTA or MICROSOFT but it's known what they mean because of the generic "PC" moniker and everyone knows that MS's software runs on the ever vast majority of PCs.

About the gentle ribbing of upgrading to Vista, it's true. It's ridiculous.

In order to upgrade to Vista, you...

• Have to buy a completely new computer in many cases, or...
• Upgrade videocards, ram, etc.
• Choose between a ton of different versions
• The versions are all designed to cripple "the Vista Experience" unless you pony up a lot of dough.

With Leopard, in most case, you pay a very reasonable $129 for the complete experience on a single version of the OS and most computers bought in the last few years should be able to handle it.

EagerDragon
Feb 7, 2007, 12:28 PM
This sort of behaviour disappoints me and does nothing to help the perceived smugness of mac users. I was detered from the Mac by what I considered their superiority complex and it was only when I eventually tried the product that I changed my mind.

Maybe some of us feel superior. I don't. I know that Apple products and OS are superior and I made the right decision to buy a Mac (more like several).:cool:

Cepe Indicum
Feb 7, 2007, 12:29 PM
I have to agree with the majority of posts on this thread, that this is bad marketing from Apple (although I will reserve judgment until I see what they do).

As a fairly recent (very happy) switcher, I remember going along with people who said, "Macs aren't 'serious' computers." I now know that this was wrong of course, but when potential switchers still think this, a negative - dare I say it, almost petty - ad campaign against Windows is not going to encourage those people that Apple want to win over the most.

Seriously, Leopard better be really, really good and come out really, really soon, if this ad campaign is going to have any positive effects :(

Analog Kid
Feb 7, 2007, 12:30 PM
Every election cycle I cringe at the negative campaigning, and every election cycle the negative campaigning works.

I find it terribly hard to feel bad about seeing the bully get taunted and MS is one of the most ruthless, "do what it takes", companies out there.

Does anyone here think MS is any different? Anybody remember direct statements from Gates (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16934083/site/newsweek/) that OS X gets rooted daily? Surely "I'm a Mac and I'm a PC" is much more clever and tasteful than outright lying...

ITR 81
Feb 7, 2007, 12:31 PM
Our store sells mostly Windows products and most folks aren't upgrading to Vista...most are waiting for SP1 or SP2 before buying.
Most need a hardware upgrade before upgrading to Vista.

Vista for me is a hard sell...atleast for another 12 months.

kodiak
Feb 7, 2007, 12:32 PM
agreed, hugely childish idea... and i thought apple wanted to be taken seriously (how are they going to square this with corporate clients)

... didnt they notice, they when they did this at the WWDC, alot of people were cringing.

didnt we also all learn at school (5 years?), that calling names just escalates very unproductively (we can already see m$ taking little pokes back)

hope it stops, otherwise though i will continue to use apple products - i wont be so keen to tell so many people.:mad:

Gasu E.
Feb 7, 2007, 12:33 PM
Well this explains this photo :D

http://www.life2point0.com/images/billsteve_1.jpg


Perfect. The Steve is bragging about how big his is, while Bill is about to try to strangle the competition. ;)

Tadros86
Feb 7, 2007, 12:34 PM
Apple, is so lame. Like, the PC vs Mac ads are funny as hell, but now it's like a kiddy fight. "No I'm better then you are!" "Na uh! Mommy!!" They should just start actually showing ads for Leopard and announce a release date instead of hitting below the belt and angering a sleeping giant. MS is way more popular, which sucks, but it's true. I just hope Apple doesn't go back into the phase that they once were in and start dying all over again. :(

SiliconAddict
Feb 7, 2007, 12:37 PM
Which is a load of ****. Vista may be many things. Unintuitive, buggy, lacking driver support, and downright hostile towards some software packages. What Vista is not is washed up. There are definitely features in Vista that I would kill in OS X.
I've said it before and I will say it again. Vista is Microsoft's 10.0. When Apple first launched OS X, calling it unpolished was downright complimentary. The last 3 revisions of OS X is where Apple really started to shine in X. I fully expect the same to happen in Vista. It going to take a year or two plus a couple service packs but it will happen. The foundation of Vista is solid. They simply need to fill in the gaping cracks. Now ease of use is another matter altogether....My brain still explodes when I try and deal with network settings in Vista. BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD design.

gkarris
Feb 7, 2007, 12:40 PM
What happend to the Steve/Bill pic?

It was fun going through the posts, and then seeing the pic with a caption -sort of like an on-going dinner conversation...

grahamtearne
Feb 7, 2007, 12:41 PM
Holiday is not a proper noun. It appears in no dictionary. It is an invention of cultural marxists who don't like acknowledging the existence of Christmas

What dictionaries are your reading? Holiday is a proper noun and does appear in dictionaries. Check your dashboard dictionary widget if you don't believe me. Although holiday may be a word used for christmas, it is the Brits version of 'vacation'. A word has more than one meaning. Please get your facts straight before posting stuff like this, and using wiki as your refernces isnt the greatest idea. Ok wikipedia is a great source, but it isnt all true, anyone can edit it, for example someone could read your post and edit wikipedia to say it isnt a proper noun as it doesnt exist in dictionaries, someone else reads it and tells someone else. More research than wiki alone is needed ;)

Superdrive
Feb 7, 2007, 12:44 PM
All good products come with some comparing marketing. Bud vs Miller, Cable vs Satellite, Pringles, vs Lays, etc. Apple is simplying setting people up to rethink their OS purchase and come check out a Mac. Apple knows that Mac OS X is that good that all it takes is to get someone to use it and it's safe to say Microsoft has lost a customer for life. If Apple doesn't compete and exploit flaws in their competitor then only current Mac users will continue to use Macs.

As much as you people think Apple is full of themselves and lying, they aren't. I see customers every day who love these commercials and fully agree and relate to every one of them. These are also the same people who are ECSTATIC about taking home a new Mac.

Bring on the Vista campaign, if Microsoft has such a good product than they shouldn't have to worry.

jon

This is exactly right. There is no other way around it.

It bothers me how many people are calling for Leopard's immediate release to 'counter' Vista. Apple's current Tiger already is a worthy competitor to an underwhelming Vista (relative to old Longhorn). I would rather see Apple spend every day they need ensuring that Leopard blows the doors off everything, including Tiger. Why rush a product out that isn't ready for prime time?

BlackMax
Feb 7, 2007, 12:45 PM
I personally own three Macs and have owned Apple computers since the Apple IIc, but I make my living in the PC/Microsoft world. I find the Apple commercials amusing, good spirited and clear and concise in their message. Not at all the Microsoft bashing that many see.

To me Jobs is simply pointing out some of the differences between the OS X based Mac and the MS Windows based PC. As others have noted this is no different than Coke and Pepsi or any other advertising rivalry. Not to mention, when you only have 5% or less of the market share you've got to do something different and creative to get your message across.

I can also say from first-hand experience qualifying Vista for my business, Vista's Access Control feature will drive you mad until you can figure out how to disable it. :eek:

The Apple "Get A Mac” Security advertisement is spot on in its depiction of this Vista feature. Linked below for everyone's viewing pleasure :)
http://images.apple.com/movies/us/apple/getamac/apple-getamac-security_480x376.mov

kuebby
Feb 7, 2007, 12:47 PM
I think this is probably a good idea. Now that MS has copied visually copied Apple so much with Vista the comparisons become more simple for a mass audience. Why do you think politicians use negative advertising? Because it works. So will this, by saying, and explaining, how Apple has the features they love, for the same price, plus it's easier to use, and "just works" thats what gets a company a mass market.

photomaniac
Feb 7, 2007, 12:48 PM
Like most people, I agree that the bashing is getting a little old... I little bit here and there to poke fun at once in a while is good for business if you can show contrasting points of view... even the latest Get a Mac ad regarding Vista is funny as hell (probably the best one yet!)... but a continuance of bashing can be perceived as inferior/insecure (even though we all know that is not the case)

...my thoughts on this matter

volvoben
Feb 7, 2007, 12:49 PM
BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD Marketing idea!

Never directly confront a competitor that is so much larger than you head-on. All Apple has to do is keep releasing hardware and OS's that are strong enough to speak for themselves.

Lets anger MS some more, maybe they will pull the plug on Office then, as they did with IE and Windoze Media. (which although I dont really like any of those products, they are necessary evils. If MS ever dropped Office, alot of us would be forced to become "switch-back-ers"

Eh, criticizing the 800 pound gorilla is par for the course. Smaller competitors can't just ignore said 800 pound gorilla, because everyone noticed them already. If you just start talking about your product without comparing it to your competitors once in a while, your customers will assume you're avoiding that gorilla because you don't have a product that can compete.

Microsoft, however, should NOT mention its competition (you'll notice they never do in marketing media). When on top, organizations should never direct their marketing at anything except the fantasticness of their own products. Doing so not only gives publicity to your competition, but also shows some insecurity about your position at the top.

Apple isn't trashing Vista. Vista has flaws and Apple is poking fun at them. It's a perfect setup for Apple's soon-to-be competing product, Leopard.

Truthfully Vista isn't terrible as far as windows releases go. One company I do some work for upgraded right away so I've used their computers. In fact I'm on a Dell Latitude c600 right now. 1.0ghz, 768mb ram, probably 4 years old, Vista business. It's darn slow, they should have left XP on these old things, but the only problem they've had so far is that they got x64 for the executives C2D laptops, and the driver support is AWFUL. most execs are back on XP, some on 32bit vista. Apple is really on the ball with the integrated seamless 64bit support in Leopard, so much better thought out. Selling 64 and 32 bit versions of Vista...classic Microsoft.

whatever
Feb 7, 2007, 12:49 PM
Yeah, I've always felt the best way to switch a non-Mac user is to show them what's so nice about using a Mac, not belittle their current choice of operating system.
I find the campaign amusing if nothing else. However, the average PC user does not have a choice when they buy a computer. It comes pre-installed with Windows.
Take a quick survey and a PC user (not a Mac user) if they choose their OS. A majority would say "no" that it just came with their computer.

Granted, people who buy Macs really don't have a choice either, however a majority buy a Mac because they like the OS (and they will tell you so).

berniemac
Feb 7, 2007, 12:50 PM
Guys... this is basic marketing. First, Apple has the minority market position and therefore should attack the market leader. Second, many people are considering whether to upgrade to Vista. What better time to offer an alternative? Could you imaging how boring these commercials would be if they were nice, politically correct comparisons of OSX and Vista? Who would even care or pay attention? (think Snickers)

And, finally, the commercials are accurate because Vista blows! I'm a Windows developer and installed several of the betas and the first released version two months ago. I finally had to uninstall it because I couldn't get any work done on my brand new high end Dell with an X1800 graphics card. UAC is a joke. The first thing I did was figure out how to disable it. That's why the latest "Security" commercial is so funny.. because it's true! I can only imagine the Apple marketing people laughing their asses off as they try out Vista. They probably have another 30 of these commercials lined up.

But I'm sure you all know more about marketing then Apple does.

ManchesterTrix
Feb 7, 2007, 12:51 PM
It won't be Microsoft Office. That is the killer app.

Only in the Windows world, The "Killer App" status of Office is due to Exchange and Access, neither of which are present in Mac's Office suite. MS Office's popularity in the OS X world is due entirely to name recognition and a lack of recognized competition. Apple could easily take care of the latter, and while the former would present a challenge, it's not unsurmountable especially if MS pulled Office support for the OS X.

TheBobcat
Feb 7, 2007, 12:55 PM
Man, the MS apologists came out in FORCE today. Monkey Man must be paying double to post on this one.

Timpdude
Feb 7, 2007, 12:56 PM
So many of the people that go into an Apple store already know what they are there for. I don't know that there are many folks that walk in there with the idea of .. hum.. am I going to switch today?!?!?! I just think that they will walk in.. chuckle at the antivista stuff and buy their Mac. I walked into a mac store for the first time knowing exactly what it was that i wanted. these guys have been converted prior to walking in. I just don't see the big deal here.

uNext
Feb 7, 2007, 12:57 PM
Funny how apple claims microsoft is nothing compared to them. But are spending millions on ads to make you believe it.

lol

Microsoft is up there and its not coming down. I DONT SEE
hospitals, nasa, goverment etc. Going with mac os x
at the end of the day microsoft is far superior on alot of stuff
apple lacks... and apple is great on what microsoft lacks they balance each other out.

Shanesan
Feb 7, 2007, 12:59 PM
($600 Dells are quite popular)

$600 Dells WERE quite popular. Those won't run Vista's super-special pretty "Aero" though!

Expect a severe increase in Dell prices once Vista is in the mainstream, eating up XP positions.

EagerDragon
Feb 7, 2007, 01:01 PM
I did a search on Amazon, and their are 23 different choices to choose from when you want to buy Vista. Microsoft must have hired marketing geniuses from AOL to do their selling:D .

The product developement of Vista wasn't headed by a creative and imaginative team of software engineers, rather it was headed by MBA hacks. Is this good for the shareholder? Innovation is always preffered IMHO.

Cinch

Right on.... There are two versions of Tiger, desktop and server (unlimited and 10 users), thats it!

We do need a 5 user server license, to compete with the home server MS is promoting.

nagromme
Feb 7, 2007, 01:01 PM
So many of the people that go into an Apple store already know what they are there for. I don't know that there are many folks that walk in there with the idea of .. hum.. am I going to switch today?!?!?! I just think that they will walk in.. chuckle at the antivista stuff and buy their Mac. I walked into a mac store for the first time knowing exactly what it was that i wanted. these guys have been converted prior to walking in. I just don't see the big deal here.

Actually around half of Macs sold in Apple Stores are to FIRST-time Mac buyers: switchers from Windows. The Apple Stores have a big role to play in explaining why Mac is better than Windows.

TheBobcat
Feb 7, 2007, 01:04 PM
Funny how apple claims microsoft is nothing compared to them. But are spending millions on ads to make you believe it.

lol

Microsoft is up there and its not coming down. I DONT SEE
hospitals, nasa, goverment etc. Going with mac os x
at the end of the day microsoft is far superior on alot of stuff
apple lacks... and apple is great on what microsoft lacks they balance each other out.

Ummm...kids....drugs are baaad... M'kay?

uNext
Feb 7, 2007, 01:08 PM
Ummm...kids....drugs are baaad... M'kay?


Can you please be more specific?


Wether you like it or not what apple is today is thanks to them giving on microsoft and supporting it on both the iPod and their computers.

You did not see market share gains before they where mac only.

Truth is truth and please eloborate on why you think i am on drugs.

TheBobcat
Feb 7, 2007, 01:09 PM
Eh, I think my post speaks for itself.

Queso
Feb 7, 2007, 01:10 PM
Actually around half of Macs sold in Apple Stores are to FIRST-time Mac buyers: switchers from Windows. The Apple Stores have a big role to play in explaining why Mac is better than Windows.
The Apple Stores are the #1 reason for Apple's resurgence. Before they started selling directly into malls and major retail locations, nobody could see their products in action. Once people could, people bought.

reubs
Feb 7, 2007, 01:17 PM
Horrible idea. This just reminds me of the coke/pepsi debate in which Coke just puts out their polar bears and sells a product but Pepsi decides to make a stink about how much better it is...but in this case, neither Apple or MS is Coke. They are both Pepsi, and it's incredibly annoying and childish.

Quit belittling MS, release iLife/iWork 07 and put Leopard out there.

[napoleon dynamite]Gosh.[/napoleon dynamite]

Shanesan
Feb 7, 2007, 01:20 PM
I DONT SEE hospitals, nasa, goverment etc. Going with mac os x at the end of the day microsoft is far superior

They're operating on me with VISTA?! No wonder the surgery mortality rate is so high.

NASA uses their own operating systems....

The Government needs a couple cuts in spending anyway. :)

oldwatery
Feb 7, 2007, 01:21 PM
Quit belittling MS, release iLife/iWork 07 and put Leopard out there.


Yes, yes and yes:D

TMay
Feb 7, 2007, 01:21 PM
Seriously, I question some concern trolls here that flatly state that they stayed away from macs because "blah, blah, blah".

Either OSX and Mac hardware is better at what you need or it isn't. If it isn't, then don't buy.

Don't like the ads, the t-shirts, heck, don't like the iPod domination? Then don't buy.

Don't like the trashing of Vista? Then don't buy.

Afraid you might be seen as a fanboy? Then don't buy.

Apple is a consumer product company. They make things, lots of times very different than the competitors, and they market differently.

This is not news, so stop with the bedwetting everytime Apple comes out with a new marketing campaign.

Superdrive
Feb 7, 2007, 01:23 PM
Funny how apple claims microsoft is nothing compared to them. But are spending millions on ads to make you believe it.

lol

Microsoft is up there and its not coming down. I DONT SEE
hospitals, nasa, goverment etc. Going with mac os x
at the end of the day microsoft is far superior on alot of stuff
apple lacks... and apple is great on what microsoft lacks they balance each other out.

I hardly believe that Apple is going for "hospitals, nasa, government" with its staff uniforms, but if that is what you want to believe...

BTW got a link to where Apple claimed MS is nothing?

Spritey
Feb 7, 2007, 01:25 PM
$600 Dells WERE quite popular. Those won't run Vista's super-special pretty "Aero" though!

Expect a severe increase in Dell prices once Vista is in the mainstream, eating up XP positions.

The people who buy a $600 computer probably doesn't care about the fancy effects though, that's why they will get Vista light (whatever it's called). The main point is that the only OS they can choose is Vista (since XP is discontinued I believe)

schm1822
Feb 7, 2007, 01:26 PM
First off, Vista is NOT that difficult to install. I had NO problems whatsoever and I love it. Second, this marketing strategy only shows Apple's fear of Microsoft. Personally, I think that it is a bad idea to really beat this marketing idea to the ground. Apple Inc. is doing just fine, there is no need to push it. I respect Apple and enjoy the wide variety of products they have to offer. Present your products as you always did and you will continue to have a steady flow of confident customers. I do agree that this marketing strategy does seem as if Apple is FULL OF ITSELF. :(

EagerDragon
Feb 7, 2007, 01:26 PM
After bill (yes lower case), stated that Apple gets broken every day, maybe we need to get the guys at 1 vulnerability a day to go after Vista. Nah, they will do that anyway once Vista have enough market share to deserve attention, LOL.

Kick them in the chin Apple, full speed ahead. Time to bring the giant down, we are not likely to see a MS-Office except for the 2008 one, and none after that anyway.

Apple has a lot of market growth to do, it can use a doubling of Mac's per years before it hurts M$ bottom line for a lot.

BTW, looks like Leopard and iLife will be package together, I seen now a few statements from Apple where they mention both in the same sentence (new rumor).:apple:

superfunkomatic
Feb 7, 2007, 01:27 PM
BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD Marketing idea!

Never directly confront a competitor that is so much larger than you head-on. All Apple has to do is keep releasing hardware and OS's that are strong enough to speak for themselves.

Lets anger MS some more, maybe they will pull the plug on Office then, as they did with IE and Windoze Media. (which although I dont really like any of those products, they are necessary evils. If MS ever dropped Office, alot of us would be forced to become "switch-back-ers"

actually, it IS a good idea to go head on with the biggest company - first rule of marketing, target the company who has the largest share of the market - i.e. microsoft.

OS 10.5 is basically in final development, so they're ready with a new product. rather than a so-called "giant" leap forward to vista, 10.5 will be a continuation, or evolution of the operating system - less learning curve, more of the same features refined. people still don't understand the windows desktop analogy, switching to another new way of doing things will make it difficult to adopt in a large corporate setting - more training! more money!

microsoft isn't going to "pull the plug on office" any time soon for any reason, they make a lot of money on the mac office market - research shows they make more per capita on the mac user market than windows (since it comes bundled with a lot of builds from manufacturers).

plus i'm not sure i understand why everyone gets their back up about these commercials, they are playing on themes that windows users experience all the time - difficult to find/use features, viruses, difficulty with upgrades - i think they're good natured ribbing rather than snarky.

thunderclap
Feb 7, 2007, 01:28 PM
That's great, but the best anti-vista marketing would be a release of Leopard.

For Mac and PC. :)

Shanesan
Feb 7, 2007, 01:31 PM
First off, Vista is NOT that difficult to install. I had NO problems whatsoever and I love it. [...] I do agree that this marketing strategy does seem as if Apple is FULL OF ITSELF. :(

On the contrary, I had many issues installing. I had to upgrade the drivers on at least two pieces of hardware after a looooong annoying wait for it to check through the hardware. It actually sort of pissed me off, waiting 15 minutes just to see "VISTA CANNOT BE INSTALLED DUE TO OLD DRIVERS ON THE FOLLOWING:" ...Pissed me the **** off.

Then when I finally got it installed, I had the same original issues from XP! I had a broken start bar, and guess what? It was still broken after the upgrade. You'd think they'd overwrite stuff to upgrade. Oh no!

So I used it for about 10 minutes, said "Aero is pretty, the glass effects are nice...", and then went back to my Macbook Pro.

In short, I don't like it. Apple has the right to speak the truth, because thats what the majority of people are experiencing.

I shouldn't have to update all my drivers (if it's not broken, don't fix it) just to install an operating system. Thats controlling, and the last thing I want is a controlling operating system or chip in my computer.

Yvan256
Feb 7, 2007, 01:31 PM
Never directly confront a competitor that is so much larger than you head-on.

I'm sorry but I have a case to tell you about: Coke vs Pepsi. Now I don't know if it's true, but it sure seems plausible.

At first, there was Coca-cola. Then came along the little new cola guy, Pepsi. At first, Coke ignored them. But when Pepsi became big enough (like, stealing 5-10% of their market) Coca-cola started campaigns about how "Coca-cola is better than Pepsi."

That marketing came back to bite them since 90-95% of the market never heard of Pepsi before that. Pepsi is now considered a strong #2 on the market, with much more than 5-10%.

The way Apple acts now is to try and shake Microsoft into making "anti-Leopard" marketing. That way, people who don't even know about alternatives to Windows Vista will start to wonder what that "Apple Leopard thing" is all about.

Since Apple are the little guys, they got nothing to lose by making puns at Vista, everyone knows Vista (good or bad). But Microsoft will have to either ignore them, or counter-attack by making puns at Leopard.

spicyapple
Feb 7, 2007, 01:32 PM
NASA uses their own operating systems....
Not sure why uNext brought NASA into discussions... but here's an interesting article (http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/06/writestuff.html) from FastCompany that discusses the protocols and testing that goes into NASA software that meets stringent SEI Level 5 designation. They definitely do not use Microsoft products.... :)

This software never crashes. It never needs to be re-booted. This software is bug-free. It is perfect, as perfect as human beings have achieved. Consider these stats : the last three versions of the program -- each 420,000 lines long-had just one error each. The last 11 versions of this software had a total of 17 errors. Commercial programs of equivalent complexity would have 5,000 errors.

This software is the work of 260 women and men based in an anonymous office building across the street from the Johnson Space Center in Clear Lake, Texas, southeast of Houston. They work for the "on-board shuttle group," a branch of Lockheed Martin Corps space mission systems division, and their prowess is world renowned.

The group writes software this good because that's how good it has to be. Every time it fires up the shuttle, their software is controlling a $4 billion piece of equipment, the lives of a half-dozen astronauts, and the dreams of the nation. Even the smallest error in space can have enormous consequences

GFLPraxis
Feb 7, 2007, 01:32 PM
You're forgetting that Microsoft just released Vista in a blaze of publicity showing how they'd innovated all those new features. Most people out there will believe that publicity unless Apple hammer the point home that OSX had them first.

I don't want to be having that argument with people again as to why Microsoft didn't come up with "that feature" when Windows users start slagging off my Mac. I'm tired of that conversation. With a couple of months of careful marketing now, Apple can ensure I don't have to.


It's so frustrating at CompUSA to see people ooing and aweing at Vista features while standing 15 feet from the Mac section.

deputy_doofy
Feb 7, 2007, 01:32 PM
This sort of behaviour disappoints me and does nothing to help the perceived smugness of mac users. I was detered from the Mac by what I considered their superiority complex and it was only when I eventually tried the product that I changed my mind.

This argument is beyond flawed. More times than not, especially before the x86 transition, you could always find the PC crowd bashing Macs way more than any Mac user could bash Windows. Even my boss still thinks there is no software from Macs.

So, going by your own argument, you must have been using ONLY Linux/UNIX before making the Mac switch because PC/Windows users were (and some still are) bullies.

When you're #1, which unfortunately Windows still is, you have to defend your title. So far, Vista isn't doing a very good job.

nagromme
Feb 7, 2007, 01:35 PM
Comparing to other markets or other companies' campaigns does not work well.

Remember the reason that MOST people stay with Windows: "just because."

They do it because they did it last time, or because most people they know did it, or because they think it's "just what you do." They are NOT tech savvy enough to be basing their choices on the REAL reasons for and against Windows.

It is ignorance.

It doesn't always matter what Apple SAYS Macs can do--MANY people will be VERY certain there is some vague reason why ONLY WINDOWS is worth considering.

They know people say Macs are easier, and do this and that. But they also "know" that there is some reason only Windows is acceptable. They don't even have to know what that reason is. (Some have vague ideas about Macs costing more for the same specs and bundle--though they don't actually check for themselves.)

THIS audience, NOT the tech-savvy ones (who are a smaller group and often already know what they like) is the group that marketing is being directed towards.

In other words, not toward us! People who are tech-savvy enough to join an OS-specific forum are not the masses that Apple is aiming TV ads and employee T-shirts at.

For THOSE people, saying that Macs do home movies (or whatever) easier and better is fine, but only if you can get them interested enough to sit down in an Apple store (or online) and really learn more. Which many people will not take the time to do. MANY people will see Apple talk about iLife and just think, "well, Vista does movies better too. I betcha."

And when non-techie Windows users think about "better," they are ASSUMING that computers cause problems and take a fight and don't understand how humans think and create. They are not thinking "better" like Apple thinks--unless they have sat down and spent time with Macs. They experience all the problems of Windows but don't they do not see any alternative! They assume that Macs share the same problems!

And they certainly assume that Vista is better in all ways than XP, which was already "better than Macs" for reasons they don't know, but are certain exist.

So, considering these non-tech-savvy masses, breaking the assumption that "Windows is all you should think about" is vital.

Apple can talk about Mac pluses until it is blue in the face, but there MUST, ALSO be a component where they point out the things that are wrong with Windows.

And in the case of Vista, Apple can do so before people buy it. People already know what's wrong with XP, but not what's wrong with Vista. Apple would be very stupid not to educate them on this.

And yes, they must do it in the right way. So far, they have done it with humor, which I think is a good approach. But I'm not the ones the ads are meant for :)

As for the marketing rule that small companies should never challenge big ones... that's backwards. The rule is that big companies' marketing should never mention smaller competitors--because it gives those smaller companies name recognition and legitimizes them.

Thus, Windows ads should NEVER attack Mac OS X.

But Mac ads SHOULD attack Windows. Point out the flaws and not be ashamed of it. Be confident. And, hopefully, do so with humor rather than "petty name-calling." Luckily, Apple seems to grasp that pretty well.

And those who think all attacks on Windows equal attacks on Windows users are, again, not likely to be the masses Apple is aiming these ads at. Most people don't have egos bound up with OSes. They buy Windows "just because."

Yvan256
Feb 7, 2007, 01:37 PM
We do need a 5 user server license, to compete with the home server MS is promoting.

Not really. Simply buy the family pack of Leopard, which is five licenses for five computers.

iJon
Feb 7, 2007, 01:39 PM
First off, Vista is NOT that difficult to install. I had NO problems whatsoever and I love it. Second, this marketing strategy only shows Apple's fear of Microsoft. Personally, I think that it is a bad idea to really beat this marketing idea to the ground. Apple Inc. is doing just fine, there is no need to push it. I respect Apple and enjoy the wide variety of products they have to offer. Present your products as you always did and you will continue to have a steady flow of confident customers. I do agree that this marketing strategy does seem as if Apple is FULL OF ITSELF. :(

What does Apple have to fear from Microsoft. Microsoft and Vista is a whole mess up there in Redmond and nobody is excited about it. Apple is laughing all the way to the bank with how well everything is going. If anyone is scared it is the PC companies and Microsoft. Microsoft will never be that scared cause they know they are so embedded in the world and will never go away. They do realize that Vista is a mess and no matter what they do they same problems will exist from OS release to the next.

Why push it? I want them to push it. I am a shareholder and I want to make money. This ad campaign IS working and Apple's sales are increasing because of it. If Apple were to take your advice then there would be no commercials on TV and people wouldn't even think of a Mac as their next purchase.

jon

Spritey
Feb 7, 2007, 01:40 PM
You know Mac Mini's are only $600, right? They're not the fastest machines of course, but neither is the $600 Dell.

Yeah, and should you get an Apple screen to go with it as well? That would certainly keep you within your budget.

You can get both desktop w/screen and laptops for 600-700 at dell. Albeit crappy by my standards, they work more than fine if you plan to surf the net, send e-mails and edit word documents and perhaps manage your mp3 player.

Apple can't beat Dell on hardware prices simply because that's what they're best at, but it would be nice if you could buy cheap hardware from dell, and install OSX on it. Reach the masses...

slffl
Feb 7, 2007, 01:44 PM
This is great! I could care less what PC users or anyone else for that matter thinks of 'mac users'. The less PC idiots that switch to mac because they think their ADS! are smug, smurky, or whatever other talking points they come up with, the better IMO. (BTW I use both a PC and Mac)

Analog Kid
Feb 7, 2007, 01:45 PM
Not sure why uNext brought NASA into discussions... but here's an interesting article (http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/06/writestuff.html) from FastCompany that discusses the protocols and testing that goes into NASA software that meets stringent SEI Level 5 designation. They definitely do not use Microsoft products.... :)
Actually, they do-- with the expected results (http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,42912,00.html).

Dont Hurt Me
Feb 7, 2007, 01:45 PM
Just for fun:

Look, Steve, eventually my system will be on all your computers...Thats what it boils down to as long as apple keeps crippling systems for the sake of another Mac. Its not like PC users must run osx but Mac hardware must run windblows. Plus if I recall OSX had all kinds of issues when it was first released so why shouldnt Vista. All this is childish kid games.

Gasu E.
Feb 7, 2007, 01:46 PM
Can you please be more specific?


Wether you like it or not what apple is today is thanks to them giving on microsoft and supporting it on both the iPod and their computers.

You did not see market share gains before they where mac only.

Truth is truth and please eloborate on why you think i am on drugs.

I don't think he was arguing against your basic point, uNext; I believe he was referring to your competence in expressing yourself in writing, which he was comparing to someone under the influence of a psychotropic drug. I think it was a somewhat rude and smarmy way to point out deficiencies in your spelling, grammar, punctuation and syntax.

Freyqq
Feb 7, 2007, 01:48 PM
this childish stuff is getting old

its fine to flaunt features and such..that's advertising..but a direct attack on a competitor is in bad taste

dhlvrsn
Feb 7, 2007, 01:52 PM
Hmmm.... PC Idiots.... :rolleyes:

Oh that's right, all I can do e-mail and the odd Word document...

Now if only I could remember where I put my keys...


Yeah, it's getting old.

Can't we all just get along?

QCassidy352
Feb 7, 2007, 01:52 PM
Thus resurface the snarky jabs that made me stay away from the Macintosh for over a decaded.

It's pretty silly to stay away from a superior product because you don't like their advertising. :rolleyes:

That said, I'd rather see Apple promoting OS X than bashing Vista.

uNext
Feb 7, 2007, 01:53 PM
They're operating on me with VISTA?! No wonder the surgery mortality rate is so high.

NASA uses their own operating systems....

The Government needs a couple cuts in spending anyway. :)

Nasa use their own OS?

You have to be kidding me-do you honestly believe what you say?

TheBobcat
Feb 7, 2007, 01:53 PM
Yeah, and should you get an Apple screen to go with it as well? That would certainly keep you within your budget.

You can get both desktop w/screen and laptops for 600-700 at dell. Albeit crappy by my standards, they work more than fine if you plan to surf the net, send e-mails and edit word documents and perhaps manage your mp3 player.

Apple can't beat Dell on hardware prices simply because that's what they're best at, but it would be nice if you could buy cheap hardware from dell, and install OSX on it. Reach the masses...

OSX deserves better than the cheap $600 Dells you and your friends apparently buy. OSX runs well because it is made for certain hardware that is in a closed system, similar to why iTunes-iPod works. OSX WILL NEVER BE RELEASED FOR GENERIC PC's. EVER. GET OVER IT.

Apple's computers aren't more expensive, they just don't sell pieces of crap.

If you want a piece of crap, just extend your hand between your legs about an hour after dinner, or right after you wake up, whichever is your preference.

TheBobcat
Feb 7, 2007, 01:53 PM
Nasa use their own OS?

You have to be kidding me-do you honestly believe what you say?

Ummm...kids...stay in school....M'Kay?

Peace
Feb 7, 2007, 01:55 PM
All I can say is Apple better be prepared to back up their words.Insult me all you want but Windows Aero "looks" a LOT nicer than Aqua.There are a lot of consumers that buy based on what it "looks" like.
If Apple wants to talk this talk they better be coming out with Leopard REAL SOON.

I voted negative because negative campaigns suck.

nagromme
Feb 7, 2007, 01:56 PM
Thats what it boils down to as long as apple keeps crippling systems for the sake of another Mac. Its not like PC users must run osx but Mac hardware must run windblows. Plus if I recall OSX had all kinds of issues when it was first released so why shouldnt Vista. All this is childish kid games.

It's childish kid games to have ego tied to OS... and mentioning problems OS X had in 2000 might fall into that category, since it's irrelevant to choosing a computer today.

It's NOT childish kid games for a computer company to try to sell a BETTER product, and break through the ignorance barrier of the many people who don't know it. Apple's not selling OS X from 2000 against Vista, they are selling OS X Tiger (and then Leopard) against Vista.

"Why shouldn't vista" is only an excuse in kid games :) Not when you're in the real world forced to buy a new PC and have a chance to choose between a Vista box and a Mac.

Admitting that Vista has flaws may "hurt some feelings"--but it won't hurt the Mac platform--it will help. Those people who are offended by admitting that Vista has problems weren't rushing to buy a Mac anyway.

Some seem to think that advertising should never point out flaws in a competitor. They must not watch a lot of ads if they actually believe that rule :) Pointing out flaws in a competitor does not harm your sales if you do it right. It's done right all the time.

Analog Kid
Feb 7, 2007, 01:57 PM
its fine to flaunt features and such..that's advertising..but a direct attack on a competitor is in bad taste
To some extent, I think the approach is intended to draw attention to the fact that OS X is a competitor. I think a lot of people view Macs as a different beast entirely, and not as something they could use instead of what they have...

clevin
Feb 7, 2007, 02:00 PM
lol, this isn't first time apple being aggressive, is it?

nagromme
Feb 7, 2007, 02:05 PM
To some extent, I think the approach is intended to draw attention to the fact that OS X is a competitor. I think a lot of people view Macs as a different beast entirely, and not as something they could use instead of what they have...

Concisely put. If you would like to see the same thing expressed in 84 paragraphs, scroll back to my post :o

Masses of people aren't consciously thinking Windows is perfect, nor better than Mac... they're thinking that nothing but Windows is worth thinking about.

But now Windows... aka XP... is gone. SOMETHING new is coming, for everyone--be it Vista or a Mac. Right now is a very rare chance to make people stop and think, even if that means making some small but vocal group of Microsoft fans uncomfortable.

bobber205
Feb 7, 2007, 02:06 PM
BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD Marketing idea!

Never directly confront a competitor that is so much larger than you head-on. All Apple has to do is keep releasing hardware and OS's that are strong enough to speak for themselves.

Lets anger MS some more, maybe they will pull the plug on Office then, as they did with IE and Windoze Media. (which although I dont really like any of those products, they are necessary evils. If MS ever dropped Office, alot of us would be forced to become "switch-back-ers"

You know apple has a office suite developed for when/if this happens.

clevin
Feb 7, 2007, 02:07 PM
You know apple has a office suite developed for when/if this happens.

haha, u really think iWork can be relied on to substitute M$ Office?

sonnys
Feb 7, 2007, 02:08 PM
I am AMAZED how many of you are personalizing this. I think it's about time Apple took on Windows head on, and their TV ads are HILARIOUS and right on the money without being smug. They deliver a message with humor, which is the most memorable type of message.

Apple SHOULD be knocking Vista, it's a great opportunity for Apple. Vista is a major upgrade that will force people to spend a lot of money on the OS and hardware. Apple is obviously seizing this opportunity to convince people who may be spending a significant amount of money on a Vista upgrade to get a Mac instead, "and here's why."

This has nothing to do with smugness, it has to do with Apple capitalizing on an opportunity that is perfectly in line with its Get a Mac ad campaign. If you are a Windows user and you walk into an Apple store, nobody is going to say "you suck because you use Windoze". What this Windows user will see, however, are subtle messages all around him illustrating the shortcomings of Vista compared to MacOS X. God forbid this Windows user think to himself, "yah, I hadn't thought of that, good point." THAT is the purpose of this campaign, not to insult someone's choice of OS. If you take it that way, then you are a pretty insecure person with bigger problems.

I think some of you people are living inside an ideal computing bubble. The majority of people out there have a Windows PC but don't necessarily understand why their programs won't work on a Mac -- aren't they all the same, after all? Apple needs to educate people, but how do you educate someone without direct comparisons to what they are familiar with? Saying that you are great at lifestyle stuff, digital media, multitasking, speed, etc., is all well and good -- it's all stuff that you can find on Windows too -- but telling someone that they don't have to face an annoying security prompt every 5 minutes with a Mac is an illuminating moment that impacts someone day-to-day computing experience. Telling them that they don't need all new hardware whenever Apple releases an OS is also illuminating and on point. How do you say these things without saying "you don't have to put up with this, there's a better alternative out there"?

Has anyone actually seen these store displays and t-shirts? How does anyone know whether the are smug or insulting? Do you think Apple would insult the person who is about to plunk down a month's salary on a computer? Apple has experienced modest growth of the Mac market, but who can blame them for wanting to step things up a notch to move more Macs off the shelves?

Microsoft has gotten a tremendous amount of press on Vista, and has spent a lot of money on marketing. This is a great way for Apple to take free advantage of its competitor's marketing dollars and the press coverage it has bought. I think we should call this the "Vista halo effect".

Dont Hurt Me
Feb 7, 2007, 02:09 PM
Apple should concentrate on Computers, they use to make all kinds of systems for all kinds of users, Today we have crippled Mini, integrated crapo graphics and its missing a keyboard & Mouse:rolleyes: Then we have ALL in One ,terrific if you own a decent display or Large screen:rolleyes: Then the only real computer MacPro starts at $2500 plus its a overkill workstation for the consumer. Then we get to hear about Pods, Pods ,Pods, next will be phones:rolleyes: Whatever happened to Apple Computer? Also Apple uses the same componets that Dell uses and even cheaper ones at times like its Intel crap o graphics that cost $4. At least Dell has options for video for christs sakes. MAC OSX is great , Apples hardware line is a joke for the consumer. Vista can be crap and it still wins.

uNext
Feb 7, 2007, 02:12 PM
Ummm...kids...stay in school....M'Kay?


Yes, kids please do stay in school. And learn that NASA dont have their own operating system-there is no such thing.

Good advice Bobcat.

And also kids please learn that apple fanatics will deiscredit anything going against apple-even if the company is far superior then it. Their minds have been distoreted so much that they still feel like aqua is above aero in the gui dpt. And they still feel like apple is this innovative company with great ideas lol

clevin
Feb 7, 2007, 02:13 PM
This has nothing to do with smugness, it has to do with Apple capitalizing on an opportunity that is perfectly in line with its Get a Mac ad campaign. If you are a Windows user and you walk into an Apple store, nobody is going to say "you suck because you use Windoze". What this Windows user will see, however, are subtle messages all around him illustrating the shortcomings of Vista compared to MacOS X. God forbid this Windows user think to himself, "yah, I hadn't thought of that, good point." THAT is the purpose of this campaign, not to insult someone's choice of OS. If you take it that way, then you are a pretty insecure person with bigger problems.


lol, u can't be sure about that, and u speak like steve Jobs. which, forgive me, i doubt it, highly.

guzhogi
Feb 7, 2007, 02:14 PM
I voted negative because negative campaigns suck.

I totally agree! Negative ads often make you look like a jackass rather than actually making what you're talking about look bad. Unfortunately, it's often easier (or feels better) to point what's wrong w/ other people than what's right about yourself.

BlackMax
Feb 7, 2007, 02:15 PM
Since Apple are the little guys, they got nothing to lose by making puns at Vista, everyone knows Vista (good or bad). But Microsoft will have to either ignore them, or counter-attack by making puns at Leopard.

Absolutely Correct! Its a win/win situation for Apple. Ignore us and we get our message out. Counter-attack and we get our message out to an even wider audience.

Digital Skunk
Feb 7, 2007, 02:16 PM
Apple should concentrate on Computers, they use to make all kinds of systems for all kinds of users, Today we have crippled Mini, integrated crapo graphics and its missing a keyboard & Mouse:rolleyes: Then we have ALL in One ,terrific if you own a decent display or Large screen:rolleyes: Then the only real computer MacPro starts at $2500 plus its a overkill workstation for the consumer. Then we get to hear about Pods, Pods ,Pods, next will be phones:rolleyes: Whatever happened to Apple Computer? Also Apple uses the same componets that Dell uses and even cheaper ones at times like its Intel crap o graphics that cost $4. At least Dell has options for video for christs sakes. MAC OSX is great , Apples hardware line is a joke for the consumer. Vista can be crap and it still wins.

Apples' hardware is not a joke for a consumer... What is that.... why even say that? People are buying the stuff, it works perfectly, and it is all they need. Most consumers are happy with the options Apple gives them. There is no way consumers are going to say,

"i am looking for an Nvidia FX 4500 to stick in my 17" iMac."

The hardware is fine. if you want a cheap box with good components then get a Dell.

There is no way that the 24" or 20" iMac is not enough computer for the average consumer. A visual arts professional.... maybe... then they would either get the MacPro or a customized iMac. What's the problem???:confused:

nagromme
Feb 7, 2007, 02:16 PM
I also see a number of people suggesting that Apple should be afraid to "upset" Microsoft.

Microsoft won't be "upset" into action for emotional reasons. MS will act (perhaps not always intelligently :) ) for profit and sales reasons.

In other words, style or "tone" (which is still an unknown for this store campaign!) will not provoke MS into taking action against Apple. Selling too many Macs, in theory, might.

So, is the argument that Apple should not sell TOO many Macs, or Microsoft will retaliate? Like canceling Office?

Well, they might--they have done such things before. However:

1. They would risk anti-trust action, and Bush's Department of Justice won't be in control forever.

2. They might cancel Office anyway, even if Apple DID keep Mac sales low on purpose.

3. There ARE alternatives to Office--even free ones. It would take time and money to polish them up, but Apple (and others) have both. I doubt Apple has an Office clone ready now, but I am sure they have considered various plans for surviving without Office.

4. Once upon a time, the Mac had little momentum and was highly dependent on Office. Not now. Now, the lack of new versions of Office would hurt a lot--but it would not be a death blow.

5. Things do change with time. Microsoft will not be able to bully the whole industry forever. They do NOT always get their way. I feel it's OK to risk making them scared.

I don't think Apple should hold back Mac sales on purpose. And I don't think anything BUT sales is going to "upset" MS enough to cancel Office.

clevin
Feb 7, 2007, 02:16 PM
Absolutely Correct! Its a win/win situation for Apple. Ignore us and we get our message out. Counter-attack and we get our message out to an even wider audience.

i do agree its effective, but... really low class

direzz
Feb 7, 2007, 02:18 PM
does apple think that they can get away with this forever?
i think its childish that a billion dollar corporation has resulted in lemonade stand marketing.

"my lemonade is better than yours."

apple. i love my mac. i love os x. but plese, SHUT UP.

Freyqq
Feb 7, 2007, 02:19 PM
OSX deserves better than the cheap $600 Dells you and your friends apparently buy. OSX runs well because it is made for certain hardware that is in a closed system, similar to why iTunes-iPod works. OSX WILL NEVER BE RELEASED FOR GENERIC PC's. EVER. GET OVER IT.

Apple's computers aren't more expensive, they just don't sell pieces of crap.

If you want a piece of crap, just extend your hand between your legs about an hour after dinner, or right after you wake up, whichever is your preference.

mac minis may look pretty..but they do use laptop components and core duos...

nagromme
Feb 7, 2007, 02:19 PM
Has anyone actually seen these store displays and t-shirts? How does anyone know whether the are smug or insulting?

To some people (who are vocal on forums but are NOT the average computer shopper), ANYTHING that makes OS X out to be better than Windows is insulting.

That says more about the person than about the OS however :)

clevin
Feb 7, 2007, 02:20 PM
does apple think that they can get away with this forever?
i think its childish that a billion dollar corporation has resulted in lemonade stand marketing.

"my lemonade is better than yours."

apple. i love my mac. i love os x. but plese, SHUT UP.

isn't childish is what Steve Jobs is proud of? he is age-insecure, :D

sonnys
Feb 7, 2007, 02:24 PM
BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD Marketing idea!

Never directly confront a competitor that is so much larger than you head-on. All Apple has to do is keep releasing hardware and OS's that are strong enough to speak for themselves.

Lets anger MS some more, maybe they will pull the plug on Office then, as they did with IE and Windoze Media. (which although I dont really like any of those products, they are necessary evils. If MS ever dropped Office, alot of us would be forced to become "switch-back-ers"

You need a lesson in marketing. A big reason to not attack a larger competitor is to stay off that competitor's radar -- if you're a startup company and are developing a solution that directly challenges the big boys, but you don't want to make waves until you're fully launched and have all your ducks in a row. Apple has been the underdog for a long time, and underdogs have nothing to lose by attacking their larger competitors. You can't change the status quo without educating those who are ultimately responsible for changing that status quo -- consumers.

Microsoft cannot "pull the plug" on Office on a whim, and companies don't respond in such a knee-jerk fashion as their more emotional customers. My understanding is that MS is under contractual obligation to continue developing and supporting Office through some date, but regardless, Microsoft's Mac BU is making money for Microsoft. Why would Microsoft disband a profitable venture because (wah!) it doesn't like Apple's ad campaign? Can we get a dose of reality here?

steve_hill4
Feb 7, 2007, 02:24 PM
Truthfully Vista isn't terrible as far as windows releases go. One company I do some work for upgraded right away so I've used their computers. In fact I'm on a Dell Latitude c600 right now. 1.0ghz, 768mb ram, probably 4 years old, Vista business. It's darn slow, they should have left XP on these old things, but the only problem they've had so far is that they got x64 for the executives C2D laptops, and the driver support is AWFUL. most execs are back on XP, some on 32bit vista. Apple is really on the ball with the integrated seamless 64bit support in Leopard, so much better thought out. Selling 64 and 32 bit versions of Vista...classic Microsoft.

Do we know yet how good the drivers will be for 64bit Leopard, or how well 64bit Leopard will be in general? My guess is it will be fantastic, but until launch day, you'll never be in a position to say that the 64bit install will work as well or better than the 32bit install. It appears people around here, myself included, think Leopard will have no problems whatsoever. It will be released, everyone will realise how much better and stable and secure it is over Vista and switch.

I don't like negative advertising, but yes it often works. There are strong laws against direct comparative advertising in the UK. You must make no mention of an actual competitor when talking about how much better your product is than the rest. I like it like this. We all know who they refer to, but they can't by name. This way, it forces companies more and more to advertise their product rather than criticise others. If your product really is that much better, sing it's virtues and let the people decide. How about Apple's ads busting more and more myths? I loved the Get A Mac ad where he tells him he's run office for years. I talk to people daily who still believe they won't be able to run office on a mac, or who are worried their music and photos won't be readable as it's a different system.

Mac. It's the same as any other computer, but it just works.

sonnys
Feb 7, 2007, 02:28 PM
If MS was as shortsighted as some people on this board and decided to cancel Mac Office, which is profitable for them, I am pretty sure Apple has a contingency plan and unreleased products it could bring to market to fill the void rather quickly. It doesn't right now because it doesn't need to -- Office is great -- but if Office went away, you can be sure Apple will have an Office replacement with 90% of the features and functionality right off the bat.

I also see a number of people suggesting that Apple should be afraid to "upset" Microsoft.

Microsoft won't be "upset" into action for emotional reasons. MS will act (perhaps not always intelligently :) ) for profit and sales reasons.

In other words, style or "tone" (which is still an unknown for this store campaign!) will not provoke MS into taking action against Apple. Selling too many Macs, in theory, might.

So, is the argument that Apple should not sell TOO many Macs, or Microsoft will retaliate? Like canceling Office?

Well, they might--they have done such things before. However:

1. They would risk anti-trust action, and Bush's Department of Justice won't be in control forever.

2. They might cancel Office anyway, even if Apple DID keep Mac sales low on purpose.

3. There ARE alternatives to Office--even free ones. It would take time and money to polish them up, but Apple (and others) have both. I doubt Apple has an Office clone ready now, but I am sure they have considered various plans for surviving without Office.

4. Once upon a time, the Mac had little momentum and was highly dependent on Office. Not now. Now, the lack of new versions of Office would hurt a lot--but it would not be a death blow.

5. Things do change with time. Microsoft will not be able to bully the whole industry forever. They do NOT always get their way. I feel it's OK to risk making them scared.

I don't think Apple should hold back Mac sales on purpose. And I don't think anything BUT sales is going to "upset" MS enough to cancel Office.

PNW
Feb 7, 2007, 02:28 PM
Oh come on the Mac/PC adds are starting to get a little old but they are still pretty funny. I use Windows from time to time and frankly am big enough to take it. Plus Vista looks to be pretty much a nightmare and Apple would be foolish not to point that out.

Why shouldn't Apple make it possible for OS X to run on a "Windows" box. Ever since OSX came out I've felt it was superior to Windows, but the last time I bought a box my Apple choices were an iMac that was priced right but not enough computer for my needs or 3K for a power mac that was more computer than I needed. So I built my own box and loaded it as a dual boot Windows/Suse system. I'm about ready for a new box and I find myself in the same place. iMac isn't enough (plus it comes with a monitor that I neither need nor wish to pay for and I can't add /remove components), while the power mac costs too much and has way more power than I need or want to pay for.

While Dell's $600 boxes may suck I have a box running openSuse in my kitchen that I put together 2 years ago for $400 that has a little less processor (single core 2.8G, 64 bit AMD) but much more RAM and video card than a mini and as such is an infinitely better box for my needs. Linux comes with it's own set of headaches that I would gladly trade for OSX, if I wasn't tied down to the hardware Apple feels I should be happy to buy

sonnys
Feb 7, 2007, 02:29 PM
does apple think that they can get away with this forever?
i think its childish that a billion dollar corporation has resulted in lemonade stand marketing.

"my lemonade is better than yours."

apple. i love my mac. i love os x. but plese, SHUT UP.

Maybe you're the only person who takes it that way because you are prone to those types of comparisons in your own life?

clevin
Feb 7, 2007, 02:32 PM
Maybe you're the only person who takes it that way because you are prone to those types of comparisons in your own life?

u are being very insulting, really

sonnys
Feb 7, 2007, 02:33 PM
Apple should concentrate on Computers, they use to make all kinds of systems for all kinds of users, Today we have crippled Mini, integrated crapo graphics and its missing a keyboard & Mouse:rolleyes: Then we have ALL in One ,terrific if you own a decent display or Large screen:rolleyes: Then the only real computer MacPro starts at $2500 plus its a overkill workstation for the consumer. Then we get to hear about Pods, Pods ,Pods, next will be phones:rolleyes: Whatever happened to Apple Computer? Also Apple uses the same componets that Dell uses and even cheaper ones at times like its Intel crap o graphics that cost $4. At least Dell has options for video for christs sakes. MAC OSX is great , Apples hardware line is a joke for the consumer. Vista can be crap and it still wins.

Hmm, let's examine this. If you are an entry level Mac user, you don't need or want a high end graphics card -- chances are you don't even know what that is. Mac Mini is perfect. Perhaps there are those who don't want a Mac, but want to find a way to get their iTunes content onto their TV... oh wait, there's AppleTV! Then there are the mid-range computer users who want a nice screen and feature set, so they have the iMac which is as fast as anything in its price range. Those who want lots of expandability to do their own thing are high end users, and that's what the Mac Pro is all about.

People who make statements such as yours just sound like they are upset they can't afford the most power Mac system, so they bash Apple for not putting the Mac Pro's capabilities into a Mac Mini box for under $400. Your arguments have no basis and hold no water.

Freyqq
Feb 7, 2007, 02:37 PM
Hmm, let's examine this. If you are an entry level Mac user, you don't need or want a high end graphics card -- chances are you don't even know what that is. Mac Mini is perfect. Perhaps there are those who don't want a Mac, but want to find a way to get their iTunes content onto their TV... oh wait, there's AppleTV! Then there are the mid-range computer users who want a nice screen and feature set, so they have the iMac which is as fast as anything in its price range. Those who want lots of expandability to do their own thing are high end users, and that's what the Mac Pro is all about.

People who make statements such as yours just sound like they are upset they can't afford the most power Mac system, so they bash Apple for not putting the Mac Pro's capabilities into a Mac Mini box for under $400. Your arguments have no basis and hold no water.

PC manufactures do have a better price/component ratio because they use conroe chips...apple DOES need lik a 1000$ model with conroe

sonnys
Feb 7, 2007, 02:38 PM
u are being very insulting, really

I don't think so. It's a basic psychological tenet that people project their own shortcomings onto those around them, I don't see why this should be any different. I'm sorry you don't appreciate my pointing this out, but perhaps there is a reason for that as well.

weitzner
Feb 7, 2007, 02:38 PM
Funny how apple claims microsoft is nothing compared to them. But are spending millions on ads to make you believe it.

lol

Microsoft is up there and its not coming down. I DONT SEE
hospitals, nasa, goverment etc. Going with mac os x
at the end of the day microsoft is far superior on alot of stuff
apple lacks... and apple is great on what microsoft lacks they balance each other out.

All microsoft has that apple doesn't is a lot more software. That's about it. I can't think of anything that Windows does that is difficult to do in OS X let alone impossible. The real reason the government and all use windows is because they'd have to buy all of their software again, and that makes no sense.

Edit: Also, I'm pretty sure most people in my government drink the blood of virgins to live longer, which might have something to do with why they use windows.

clevin
Feb 7, 2007, 02:40 PM
All microsoft has that apple doesn't is a lot more software. That's about it. I can't think of anything that Windows does that is difficult to do in OS X let alone impossible. The real reason the government and all use windows is because they'd have to buy all of their software again, and that makes no sense.

Edit: Also, I'm pretty sure most people in my government drink the blood of virgins to live longer, which might have something to do with why they use windows.

a lot more softwares + alot more combination of hardwares, thats more accurate.

ksgant
Feb 7, 2007, 02:41 PM
Ok, I think these ads are childish and not warranted and I too think that Apple should show people they're strengths, and not try to put down the competition by showing their faults.

BUT. What is with the people here with comments like "I don't like Apple's smugness so I'm going to switch to Ubuntu Linux on my Mac" or "I'm not getting a Mac now because these ads are annoying". You mean to tell me that advertising actually influences what you use? Just because of an advertising campaign you're going to throw the baby out with the bathwater? Sorry, that's idiotic and just plain shallow. Hate to be blunt, but I think some of you need a little bluntness smacked across your face to wake you up out of a stupor.

firebox
Feb 7, 2007, 02:42 PM
Actually around half of Macs sold in Apple Stores are to FIRST-time Mac buyers: switchers from Windows. The Apple Stores have a big role to play in explaining why Mac is better than Windows.

I live and work in Jersey, Channel Islands. In our Premium Reseller store, according to last months figures around 70% of the macs we sold are to first time Apple buyers and it is amazing, as a switcher, to have watched the interest in the Apple OS escalate in the past 6 years. When i first switched i swear i though i had found the holy grail because people just didn't seem to be aware that there was an alternative to Windows. I switched because trying to produce music on a Windows machine was nothing less than a nightmare and after using my first Apple computer for no more than a week i was addicted to this "fridge-like" way of just getting things done!

I have NEVER been a salesman, and even now 90% of my work is in Networking Solutions and Training, but when i rarely get the chance to hang around on the shop floor for a while it is a pleasure talking to people about how the OS could really help them just get things done. I don't SELL customers Apple computers, i just strongly believe that any person, shown a tool that will suite them better than something they already have, will buy it. I know i certainly did!

The "Get a Mac" adverts merely place Apple in the public eye, and yes, they are very close to that imaginary line that we call "smug" or "snarky" but as some users have quite rightly pointed out if we merely just advertised the bare facts about viruses and software compatibility who would care? 90% of PC users already accept that there computing experience will be crippled by the constant intervention of anti-virus, anti-spyware, anti-[place unacceptable/forced to accept threat here] software. The fact is that these adverts, by treading so closely to this line, grab peoples attention... Hell, Ferrari owners are smug but that is because their cars rock!!!

I see it as the perfect time to grab the home users attention, and also the perfect time to show Windows users that there is a choice! Even if the publication of these adverts just makes them want to pop in for a look, they will at least start to acknowledge that there is an alternative to Windows, then, when they do buy that new Dell and get utterley frustrated at how things just don't work they will hopefully remember all of the wonderfull things that my collegues or myself had shown them!

We (myself included) are far to wrapped in this cult-like following to appreciate fully how general home users feel about the way computers should be according to them. Maybe we should stop being so hard on Apple's marketing team and just accept that this is a very good opportunity to make the point that OS X is an EXTEMELY good home user-orientated OS, and trust them to try their hardest to get that message out there. Besides, they are humorous!

My 2p..

PNW
Feb 7, 2007, 02:42 PM
I can't think of anything that Windows does that is difficult to do in OS X let alone impossible. .

By default Windows leaves the front door open to malware et. al.

Sorry I just couldn't resist the low hanging fruit :D

weitzner
Feb 7, 2007, 02:46 PM
a lot more softwares + alot more combination of hardwares, thats more accurate.


well if you want to get down to it, the hardware vendors (like nVidia and ATI) are responsible for writing the drivers that actually allow for the hardware configurations - windows doesn't actually support them, the hardware manufacturer's software does.... so there's more software for windows. that is all.

Monkenstien
Feb 7, 2007, 02:46 PM
What Apple seems to be employing here is "Gorilla marketing". Childish it my look but could be very effective in destroying big giants. Giants are big and powerful but this could also make them slow and stupid. Enrage them, they will run after you madly even without noticing that they have left their territory and entered into unknown lands with all their energy and resources exhausted. And now they are like bozos which can be taken out in single shot. This is the risk Apple is taking to bring down MS to its knees. And it seems to be showing its results. Devices like Zune, rumors like Zune phone are examples how MS guys are getting intimidated by Apple's campaign. I can only hope that there are still enough smart people left in MS that can see this and continue to work on their core strengths i.e to remain a platforms company which they are and not try to be everything. They right now in all places, gaming, platforms, development tools, productivity apps, business solutions, services, internet and god knows what else. But I must also admit Apple guys have guts to challenge anything. Let see what happens this year. Seems to me an entertaining year ahead.

clevin
Feb 7, 2007, 02:46 PM
Ok, I think these ads are childish and not warranted and I too think that Apple should show people they're strengths, and not try to put down the competition by showing their faults.

BUT. What is with the people here with comments like "I don't like Apple's smugness so I'm going to switch to Ubuntu Linux on my Mac" or "I'm not getting a Mac now because these ads are annoying". You mean to tell me that advertising actually influences what you use? Just because of an advertising campaign you're going to throw the baby out with the bathwater? Sorry, that's idiotic and just plain shallow. Hate to be blunt, but I think some of you need a little bluntness smacked across your face to wake you up out of a stupor.

if ads have no influence, why ppl making them?

well if you want to get down to it, the hardware vendors (like nVidia and ATI) are responsible for writing the drivers that actually allow for the hardware configurations - windows doesn't actually support them, the hardware manufacturer's software does.... so there's more software for windows. that is all.

lol,
1, do end user care about why?

2, does apple give 3rd party hardware manufacturers as many chance as windows give them?

don't always blame other ppl, think about apple itself first.

sonnys
Feb 7, 2007, 02:48 PM
PC manufactures do have a better price/component ratio because they use conroe chips...apple DOES need lik a 1000$ model with conroe

Not necessarily defending Apple here, but they don't "need" to compete at every single price point of every single PC manufacturer. Apple's lineup is selling like mad, their market research (for which they paid a lot of money and did a lot of homework on) indicates this is the best mix of features at this price point, and their sales are proving this to be the case.

I'm a print designer, so a PowerMac was my choice. My sister is a more mainstream user who wants to surf the web, play a few games, write emails, download digital pics, and occasionally use Office to do some work from home. For her the iMac was an excellent choice, and she couldn't be happier. My dad will likely get an iMac when he moves to his new house because it has the best combination of features.

KingofAwesome
Feb 7, 2007, 02:49 PM
Yes, kids please do stay in school. And learn that NASA dont have their own operating system-there is no such thing.

Good advice Bobcat.

And also kids please learn that apple fanatics will deiscredit anything going against apple-even if the company is far superior then it. Their minds have been distoreted so much that they still feel like aqua is above aero in the gui dpt. And they still feel like apple is this innovative company with great ideas lol

You know, I just spent about twenty seconds on Google and learned that NASA has their own OS (http://www-hpc.jpl.nasa.gov/PEP/pls/tw.html) called "Time Warp". You may want to spend a little bit of time researching your arguments before you try to ridicule others via mediocre grammar.

And I believe that the original Mac, the iMac, OS X, the iPod, iPhone, and :apple:TV would be excellent examples of actual innovations made by Apple.

Clearly you are very selective in what you choose to believe and you seem to base those decisions on isolated ideas in your head (ideas such as "I think NASA uses Windows"), so I won't be offended if you don't believe me.

kcmac
Feb 7, 2007, 02:50 PM
There are sure a bunch of wimpy soccer mom types around here.

Competition is what makes living....well worth living. In the business world that is. What else is there?

I hope some of you could be my competitors. You would get hungry very quickly.

Apple is saying nor doing anything that is not true. The truth can hurt. Just ask Billy Boy on his cross country Vista tour nightmare.

weitzner
Feb 7, 2007, 02:52 PM
lol,
1, do end user care about why?

2, does apple give 3rd party hardware manufacturers as many chance as windows give them?

don't always blame other ppl, think about apple itself first.

i mean M$ definitely allows more hardware manufacurers to develop, and apple restricts that. but there's a big difference between M$ and ? here in that M$ just wants to sell their software, whereas ? wants to sell their hardware. So M$ basically says "I don't care what hardware you want to run this on, just buy it from us" and ? says (nowadays) "I don't care what OS you run on it, just buy it from us" They have different objectives as far as hardware configurations are concerned.

ksgant
Feb 7, 2007, 02:54 PM
if ads have no influence, why ppl making them?

Well, some ads work. They introduce a product or show a new feature of an existing product to make people want to go out and buy it. Are you personally influenced by these anti-vista ads at all? Do you think others will be? Sure, maybe some.

But my jab was mainly aimed at some of the people in this thread that were making claims of getting rid of their Macs or switching to Linux just because of these ads. Isn't that a tad shallow? I know they're probably not going to anyway and just spouting off nonsense here, but really...change your entire OS just because you don't like an ad? Come on...

guzhogi
Feb 7, 2007, 02:56 PM
You know, I just spent about twenty seconds on Google and learned that NASA has their own OS (http://www-hpc.jpl.nasa.gov/PEP/pls/tw.html) called "Time Warp". You may want to spend a little bit of time researching your arguments before you try to ridicule others via mediocre grammar.

And I believe that the original Mac, the iMac, OS X, the iPod, iPhone, and :apple:TV would be excellent examples of actual innovations made by Apple.

Clearly you are very selective in what you choose to believe and you seem to base those decisions on isolated ideas in your head (ideas such as "I think NASA uses Windows"), so I won't be offended if you don't believe me.

And don't forget NASA (as well as any company) can use, brace yourself for it, MULTIPLE operating systems! << gasp >> They might use Windows on some computers and their own OS on other computers. If you expect that one operating system can do everything in the world well, you're deluding yourself.

PNW
Feb 7, 2007, 02:56 PM
well if you want to get down to it, the hardware vendors (like nVidia and ATI) are responsible for writing the drivers that actually allow for the hardware configurations - windows doesn't actually support them, the hardware manufacturer's software does.... so there's more software for windows. that is all.

Yeah but both nVidia and ATI have written Linux drivers. So it stands to reason if Apple would support all of their cards, they'd write drivers for Mac,

Peace
Feb 7, 2007, 03:00 PM
You know, I just spent about twenty seconds on Google and learned that NASA has their own OS (http://www-hpc.jpl.nasa.gov/PEP/pls/tw.html) called "Time Warp". You may want to spend a little bit of time researching your arguments before you try to ridicule others via mediocre grammar.

And I believe that the original Mac, the iMac, OS X, the iPod, iPhone, and :apple:TV would be excellent examples of actual innovations made by Apple.

Clearly you are very selective in what you choose to believe and you seem to base those decisions on isolated ideas in your head (ideas such as "I think NASA uses Windows"), so I won't be offended if you don't believe me.

NASA may use their own O/S but folks on the shuttle use MS Outlook for email.I've watched them do it on NASA TV.

GFLPraxis
Feb 7, 2007, 03:05 PM
I have NEVER been a salesman, and even now 90% of my work is in Networking Solutions and Training, but when i rarely get the chance to hang around on the shop floor for a while it is a pleasure talking to people about how the OS could really help them just get things done. I don't SELL customers Apple computers, i just strongly believe that any person, shown a tool that will suite them better than something they already have, will buy it. I know i certainly did!

It's true. I work technically as a hardware salesman at CompUSA. I SUCK at sales because I'm not pushy at it; someone tells me no to something and I don't force it on them like most of the sales people do.

Yet, the salespeople that add hundreds of dollars on their paycheck a week in sheer bonuses tell me I'm the best Mac salesman they've ever seen barring the Apple rep; but all I do is show them what they can do with it (and perhaps my sheer enthusiasm bleeds over).

timmillwood
Feb 7, 2007, 03:06 PM
You can still use Codeweavers CrossOver to run Windows programs like MS Office in Mac OS X. We'd survive :D

http://www.codeweavers.com/products/cxmac/

WOW! havent seen this, im gonna give it a try... bye bye parallels! :D

KingofAwesome
Feb 7, 2007, 03:06 PM
And don't forget NASA (as well as any company) can use, brace yourself for it, MULTIPLE operating systems! << gasp >> They might use Windows on some computers and their own OS on other computers. If you expect that one operating system can do everything in the world well, you're deluding yourself.

You know, I was really just trying to shoot down uNext. He was claiming that NASA did not write its own OS. I provided a link stating otherwise. I did not mean to imply that NASA doesn't use Windows at all, but I really don't know what OS's are in use there, so I won't comment either way.

But oh yeah, << gasp >>. So glad I braced myself before reading your comment. You've taught me so much.

Freyqq
Feb 7, 2007, 03:06 PM
Not necessarily defending Apple here, but they don't "need" to compete at every single price point of every single PC manufacturer. Apple's lineup is selling like mad, their market research (for which they paid a lot of money and did a lot of homework on) indicates this is the best mix of features at this price point, and their sales are proving this to be the case.

I'm a print designer, so a PowerMac was my choice. My sister is a more mainstream user who wants to surf the web, play a few games, write emails, download digital pics, and occasionally use Office to do some work from home. For her the iMac was an excellent choice, and she couldn't be happier. My dad will likely get an iMac when he moves to his new house because it has the best combination of features.

I see what your saying..but personally no desktop apple computer appeals to me. I already own a good monitor..so the imac is out. The mac mini has no graphics card so thats out. The Mac Pro is way to much for my needs, so that's out. Personally, if they had a desktop with 2 hd bays, 1 dvd bay, 1 conroe chip, 2 gigs of ram, and a radeon 1900xt or something for 1000$, I'd jump on it.

Amdahl
Feb 7, 2007, 03:10 PM
What dictionaries are your reading? Holiday is a proper noun and does appear in dictionaries. Check your dashboard dictionary widget if you don't believe me. Although holiday may be a word used for christmas, it is the Brits version of 'vacation'. A word has more than one meaning. Please get your facts straight before posting stuff like this, and using wiki as your refernces isnt the greatest idea. Ok wikipedia is a great source, but it isnt all true, anyone can edit it, for example someone could read your post and edit wikipedia to say it isnt a proper noun as it doesnt exist in dictionaries, someone else reads it and tells someone else. More research than wiki alone is needed ;)

I wasn't using wiki as a source; the other guy was.

I say that Holiday does not exist in the dictionary as a proper noun. It is a generic word, which is what you were saying as well. MacRumors, as well as Apple, have been using Holiday (e.g. Holiday 2007) as describing some kind of specific time/date/event.

I have checked the dashboard widget, and it supports my position.

I also notice some sort of apparatchik deleted my post that you were responding to. Very Apple-esque!

Digitalclips
Feb 7, 2007, 03:11 PM
Thus resurface the snarky jabs that made me stay away from the Macintosh for over a decaded.

You let advertizing influence your choice of OS? :confused:

Rot'nApple
Feb 7, 2007, 03:12 PM
Well this explains this photo :D

http://www.life2point0.com/images/billsteve_1.jpg

Steve: "Bill, since you don't like our current commercials about Vista, we thought about creating a new commercial that would let PC tout all the new functions and apps that is currently in R&D and will be in Vista II when it comes out. So I need your help with the script. What will PC say?"

Bill: "Can't Steve, Leopard and it's full functionality hasn't been released yet!"

It's easy to say Mac is smug when there are more features showing up in other OS's after the Mac releases theirs, then visa-versa. Even if computer companies are emulating Apple's "tight lip" with regards to specifics, maybe they can at least give a synopsis of their future OS's "vision" like when Apple did when it decided to change the "vision" of the personal computer "to become a Digital Hub" and thus various products and apps have followed since, like iLife apps, iPod, iTMS, :apple: tv, iPhone...

So, Bill Gates, I know you are out of the loop somewhat, but maybe you and Steve Ballmer can preannounce Microsoft's vision and what might be coming up next so Apple can't be smug and say "Redmond, start your photocopiers"! :rolleyes:

Dont Hurt Me
Feb 7, 2007, 03:16 PM
Hmm, let's examine this. If you are an entry level Mac user, you don't need or want a high end graphics card -- chances are you don't even know what that is. Mac Mini is perfect. Perhaps there are those who don't want a Mac, but want to find a way to get their iTunes content onto their TV... oh wait, there's AppleTV! Then there are the mid-range computer users who want a nice screen and feature set, so they have the iMac which is as fast as anything in its price range. Those who want lots of expandability to do their own thing are high end users, and that's what the Mac Pro is all about.

People who make statements such as yours just sound like they are upset they can't afford the most power Mac system, so they bash Apple for not putting the Mac Pro's capabilities into a Mac Mini box for under $400. Your arguments have no basis and hold no water.So apple not having a mid grade Consumer tower holds no water? LOL Thats funny 95% of the world says you dont know what you are saying. PLus I have bought and supported Apple since you were in diapers more then likely. Apples hardware is a joke. Best software on gimmicky hardware. (edit) we need another quicksilver!

uNext
Feb 7, 2007, 03:21 PM
All microsoft has that apple doesn't is a lot more software. That's about it. I can't think of anything that Windows does that is difficult to do in OS X let alone impossible. The real reason the government and all use windows is because they'd have to buy all of their software again, and that makes no sense.

Edit: Also, I'm pretty sure most people in my government drink the blood of virgins to live longer, which might have something to do with why they use windows.

bLU-RAY DRIVES AND HD-DVD are now supported on both xp and vista.
Blu-ray and hd dvd have been supported by xp for a little over a year or more.

Can mac os x claim this? Can mac os x really claim in giving you the ability to choose your own hardware?

Peace
Feb 7, 2007, 03:25 PM
You let advertizing influence your choice of OS? :confused:

Isn't that what advertising is designed to do ?

KingofAwesome
Feb 7, 2007, 03:28 PM
bLU-RAY DRIVES AND HD-DVD are now supported on both xp and vista.
Blu-ray and hd dvd have been supported by xp for a little over a year or more.

Can mac os x claim this? Can mac os x really claim in giving you the ability to choose your own hardware?

Oh really? Windows Vista: No Blu-ray/HD DVD support out of the box (http://www.cnet.com.au/software/operatingsystems/0,239029541,240092160,00.htm)

I really wish you would at least consider looking these things up first.

Oops, that link was a few months old. Here's one from yesterday: Vista will not support Blu-ray or HD DVD playback out-of-the-box or on most PCs (http://www.engadget.com/2006/08/24/vista-will-not-support-blu-ray-or-hd-dvd-playback-out-of-the-box-or-on-most-PCs/)

Queso
Feb 7, 2007, 03:29 PM
So apple not having a mid grade Consumer tower holds no water? LOL Thats funny 95% of the world says you dont know what you are saying. PLus I have bought and supported Apple since you were in diapers more then likely. Apples hardware is a joke. Best software on gimmicky hardware.
I wouldn't say that, but you're right that there are a couple of gaps in the product mix that could do with filling. A reborn Cube, priced properly, for one.

Anyway, that's for another thread (and another....and another...;) )

Bonte
Feb 7, 2007, 03:30 PM
Vista runs on Macs, i find this a very bad marketing ploy if Leopard won't run on PC's. Windows and osX will have to battle it out on the same hardware and the Mac will have to prove its superiority on its own.

ChrisA
Feb 7, 2007, 03:33 PM
You know, I was really just trying to shoot down uNext. He was claiming that NASA did not write its own OS. I provided a link stating otherwise. I did not mean to imply that NASA doesn't use Windows at all, but I really don't know what OS's are in use there, so I won't comment either way.

But oh yeah, << gasp >>. So glad I braced myself before reading your comment. You've taught me so much.

NASA is a large organization. Pick an OS. ... OK, I like "Irix". I'll bet you $100 NASA uses Irix. There are still some VMS installations and of course Solaris, VxWorks and MS Windows and Mac OS. To say the NASA uses something means nothing because they use everything.

As for flight hardware OSes. Only recently have they actually been using an OS in the flight hardware. More typically was it just a "run time environment" and more like an set of interrupt handlers. They would have a set of timers that generate interrupts and then have bits of code hung off each interrupt. If you all that "writting an OS" and it's been re-written many times.

clevin
Feb 7, 2007, 03:35 PM
i mean M$ definitely allows more hardware manufacurers to develop, and apple restricts that. but there's a big difference between M$ and ? here in that M$ just wants to sell their software, whereas ? wants to sell their hardware. So M$ basically says "I don't care what hardware you want to run this on, just buy it from us" and ? says (nowadays) "I don't care what OS you run on it, just buy it from us" They have different objectives as far as hardware configurations are concerned.

i guess what im basically saying is.
end user can have more hardware and software choices with windows.
hardware manufacturers will be able to survive easier with windows than OSX, coz apple does have big restriction there.

is it good or not? I don't judge. if apple think thats the way to control the quality, then apple need to accept the consequence of limited market.

clevin
Feb 7, 2007, 03:38 PM
Well, some ads work. They introduce a product or show a new feature of an existing product to make people want to go out and buy it. Are you personally influenced by these anti-vista ads at all? Do you think others will be? Sure, maybe some.

But my jab was mainly aimed at some of the people in this thread that were making claims of getting rid of their Macs or switching to Linux just because of these ads. Isn't that a tad shallow? I know they're probably not going to anyway and just spouting off nonsense here, but really...change your entire OS just because you don't like an ad? Come on...

hehe, i understand, im sure those are extreme minority, but, i do think they exist, after all, I put on SUSE on my compaq because I really tired of M$. SO i can't rule out there are some guys just have straight forward thinking (I definitely not saying its bad, don't bash me:D)

uNext
Feb 7, 2007, 03:41 PM
You know, I just spent about twenty seconds on Google and learned that NASA has their own OS (http://www-hpc.jpl.nasa.gov/PEP/pls/tw.html) called "Time Warp". You may want to spend a little bit of time researching your arguments before you try to ridicule others via mediocre grammar.

And I believe that the original Mac, the iMac, OS X, the iPod, iPhone, and :apple:TV would be excellent examples of actual innovations made by Apple.

Clearly you are very selective in what you choose to believe and you seem to base those decisions on isolated ideas in your head (ideas such as "I think NASA uses Windows"), so I won't be offended if you don't believe me.

run parallel discrete event simulated applications

That information was laST updated back in 1996

HAVE YOU SEEN THE LAST NASA HD REPORT? The austronauts aboard where all using a dell with windows xp and "time warp" within windows.

SO no they dont have their own os but their own mainframe running under windows.

How inovative is :apple: T.V REALLY?

Innovation is havign a gaming system where it connects to your computer and i tcan turn into a PVR. and stream any file from your computer to your t.v.

Apple did no come up with the whole stream to your tv content
sorry to burst your bubble.

The iMac amazing design all in one beatiful but guess what they where not the first all in one they did however make it sexy not INNOVATIVE more like evolution.

The iPod again was not the first to do it it evolved from what was already on the market they did make it sexy and usefull can it really be considered innovative?

the iPhone? i have had a phone that can what the iphone is claiming innoavtive for over 3 years now.

Once again they are not innovative they evolve products with great ideas.
They basically steal the idea or the concept and add that apple topping on top and pass it as innovative.

Perfect example look at 1 of the next features for leopard called spaces?
been out for years but i think apple will find a way to say THEY CREATED IT.

biturbomunkie
Feb 7, 2007, 03:43 PM
personally i start finding this mac > windows campaign lame. the whole thing is like a troll. what happened to jobs' "ecosystem" speech in '97? why did apple develop boot camp AND advertise mactels can run windows/office?

KingofAwesome
Feb 7, 2007, 03:43 PM
NASA is a large organization. Pick an OS. ... OK, I like "Irix". I'll bet you $100 NASA uses Irix. There are still some VMS installations and of course Solaris, VxWorks and MS Windows and Mac OS. To say the NASA uses something means nothing because they use everything.

As for flight hardware OSes. Only recently have they actually been using an OS in the flight hardware. More typically was it just a "run time environment" and more like an set of interrupt handlers. They would have a set of timers that generate interrupts and then have bits of code hung off each interrupt. If you all that "writting an OS" and it's been re-written many times.

I'm sure that they use multiple OSes. That was entirely not my point at all. I was refuting the following claim made by uNext:
And learn that NASA dont have their own operating system-there is no such thing.

There is most definitely at least one operating system developed by NASA, and this OS is called Time Warp. I wasn't saying it's the only OS they use.

In unrelated matters, regarding governments using only Windows, I can say that I work for a state government and I use a G5 iMac in my office. Macs are a minority in government, but they are most definitely in use.

brepublican
Feb 7, 2007, 03:45 PM
Love :apple: but I'm not really feeling this campaign. Lets focus on the merits of OS X. Cos I believe it really is better than Vista, so we shouldn't have to resort to this unecessary bashing :cool:

clevin
Feb 7, 2007, 03:45 PM
Oh really? Windows Vista: No Blu-ray/HD DVD support out of the box (http://www.cnet.com.au/software/operatingsystems/0,239029541,240092160,00.htm)

I really wish you would at least consider looking these things up first.

Oops, that link was a few months old. Here's one from yesterday: Vista will not support Blu-ray or HD DVD playback out-of-the-box or on most PCs (http://www.engadget.com/2006/08/24/vista-will-not-support-blu-ray-or-hd-dvd-playback-out-of-the-box-or-on-most-PCs/)

I think you're forgetting that Windows XP didn't support DVD video out-of-the-box either. The format's doing just fine. how much does "out of box" really weigh?

anyway, do Tiger support Blue Ray or HD?

dukeblue91
Feb 7, 2007, 03:49 PM
They could be coming to look at iPods...?



Or my Apple store sells Dells, Toshibas, Fujitsu-Siemens, MS Office and many, many other computer related things... both apple and non-apple.

You are right, they could be there for an iPod or whatever, but the fact is that 50% of Apple Store consumers buying a Mac are new to the Mac.

If you read the article you will see that they are talking about Apple Inc. stores and not some third rate I sell everything wanna be Best Buy Or Comp USA store in Canada.

TheBobcat
Feb 7, 2007, 03:52 PM
That information was laST updated back in 1996

HAVE YOU SEEN THE LAST NASA HD REPORT? The austronauts aboard where all using a dell with windows xp and "time warp" within windows.

SO no they dont have their own os but their own mainframe running under windows.

How inovative is :apple: T.V REALLY?

Innovation is havign a gaming system where it connects to your computer and i tcan turn into a PVR. and stream any file from your computer to your t.v.

Apple did no come up with the whole stream to your tv content
sorry to burst your bubble.

The iMac amazing design all in one beatiful but guess what they where not the first all in one they did however make it sexy not INNOVATIVE more like evolution.

The iPod again was not the first to do it it evolved from what was already on the market they did make it sexy and usefull can it really be considered innovative?

the iPhone? i have had a phone that can what the iphone is claiming innoavtive for over 3 years now.

Once again they are not innovative they evolve products with great ideas.
They basically steal the idea or the concept and add that apple topping on top and pass it as innovative.

Perfect example look at 1 of the next features for leopard called spaces?
been out for years but i think apple will find a way to say THEY CREATED IT.

You should do stand-up, I haven't laughed this hard in months.

Between the beatiful iMac and your 3-year-premature discovery of the iPhone, I can't get enough. I hope you get a special on HBO, or at least a MySpace account or something.

Bonte
Feb 7, 2007, 03:54 PM
What i do like about these kind of advertisements is how it pisses off Microsoft, Apple can show them and trash Windows in it. Microsoft hasn't got this option, it would make osX to important. Coke made that mistake once with some very bad advertisement, we can only hope. :)

mac 2005
Feb 7, 2007, 03:57 PM
Maybe I'm naive, but I'm going to suspend judgment on this campaign until I actually see it. I think the transition to Vista represents a real opportunity for Apple, particularly given the proximity of the launch of Leopard.

Companies can directly compare the benefits of using their products over the competition's in a way that's mature and instructive. I'm sure that a number of people out there are considering switching to a Mac but may need the additional information about what Leopard offers that Vista doesn't. They're going to have to a buy a new computer, either way, in many cases, so the impetus is on Apple to educate them why Leopard and a Mac are the best path.

You can't make that appeal in isolation. You have to give people something to compare against -- you're not saying one is bad, so much as communicating how one is better. Posters claiming Apple is resorting to "fear, uncertainty and doubt" strike me as off-the-mark. Keep things in perspective: We're talking about a consumer purchase. Would anyone accuse Bounty of FUD when it says its paper towels clean better than Company X or Company Y?

At any rate, let's see the ads first. I find it "coincidental" that the negative votes on the current Apple campaign follow so closely on Gates' recent comments that the commercials insult Windows users rather than play on the misperceptions and rivalries that exist between both Windows and OS X users.

clevin
Feb 7, 2007, 03:58 PM
What i do like about these kind of advertisements is how it pisses off Microsoft, Apple can show them and trash Windows in it. Microsoft hasn't got this option, it would make osX to important. Coke made that mistake once with some very bad advertisement, we can only hope. :)

yes, sometimes its good to be minority.

AaronPM
Feb 7, 2007, 04:00 PM
Oh really? Windows Vista: No Blu-ray/HD DVD support out of the box (http://www.cnet.com.au/software/operatingsystems/0,239029541,240092160,00.htm)

I really wish you would at least consider looking these things up first.

Oops, that link was a few months old. Here's one from yesterday: Vista will not support Blu-ray or HD DVD playback out-of-the-box or on most PCs (http://www.engadget.com/2006/08/24/vista-will-not-support-blu-ray-or-hd-dvd-playback-out-of-the-box-or-on-most-PCs/)

Ummm even the second quote you provided was old..

MS is not releasing a native Blu-ray/HD DVD playback option, they are relying on third party software support, very similar I believe to what they did with current DVD formats.

Cheers

A

KingofAwesome
Feb 7, 2007, 04:01 PM
That information was laST updated back in 1996

HAVE YOU SEEN THE LAST NASA HD REPORT? The austronauts aboard where all using a dell with windows xp and "time warp" within windows.

SO no they dont have their own os but their own mainframe running under windows.

How inovative is :apple: T.V REALLY?

Innovation is havign a gaming system where it connects to your computer and i tcan turn into a PVR. and stream any file from your computer to your t.v.

Apple did no come up with the whole stream to your tv content
sorry to burst your bubble.

The iMac amazing design all in one beatiful but guess what they where not the first all in one they did however make it sexy not INNOVATIVE more like evolution.

The iPod again was not the first to do it it evolved from what was already on the market they did make it sexy and usefull can it really be considered innovative?

the iPhone? i have had a phone that can what the iphone is claiming innoavtive for over 3 years now.

Once again they are not innovative they evolve products with great ideas.
They basically steal the idea or the concept and add that apple topping on top and pass it as innovative.

Perfect example look at 1 of the next features for leopard called spaces?
been out for years but i think apple will find a way to say THEY CREATED IT.

You've really gone off the deep end here. For one thing, an OS was in use in 1996 is still an OS. I don't see why it wouldn't still be an OS, even if it currently isn't used much.

Now onto these "non-innovations." I'll grant that the Xbox 360 is a device with very similar capabilities. I don't have either device, though, so I won't comment further on what Apple may have come up with on its own and what concepts might have been influenced by MS.

Now onto the iPod. The clickwheel is innovative. You did not see a device with this interface before Apple designed it.

The iMac's design was innovative because it was designed to look good. Computers before that weren't designed with physical appearance in mind. That was an innovation.

And you did not own a phone three years ago that could do everything the iPhone can do. I can't even begin to take that statement seriously. But let us know what model phone that is, because I'd certainly buy it if it could do what an iPhone will be able to do.

And I won't defend Apple for saying what you think they will say in the future regarding Spaces. In fact, I was using virtual desktops years ago when I used Linux, so if they did claim that it is innovative, I would also disagree with them.

ready2switch
Feb 7, 2007, 04:02 PM
I find it quite funny to see all the arguments over NASA and OS X on generic hardware and "OMG BRING BACK THE CUBE!" on this thread which is basically saying "Apple will have a new marketing campaign in-store".

We don't know what this campaign will be, but I would imagine it would be the same old "no viruses, drivers included, it just works" stuff that OS X has over Vista. Is that "anti-vista"? Maybe. But I think the majority of people already saying the marketing campaign they know nothing about is childish and smug to be a bit childish and smug themselves. Why should we assume that "anti-vista" means a mud-slinging poke-in-the-eye "my bike's bigger than your bike" type ad? You're so much better than Apple and you're so disappointed in them being so childish. You wouldn't stoop to that level and you can't believe they are? The plain truth is we don't know what they're going to do. If, indeed, it is mud-slinging, then feel free to be disappointed in Apple's childlike behavior. But to bash something you don't even know is true?

I, for one, will be glad to see Apple reinforcing the fact that Vista has problems that OS X doesn't have. Problems that many people see in XP and don't want to experience in their next computer purchase. Follow this up in a few months with Leopard and what it CAN do, and we could have a winner.

TheBobcat
Feb 7, 2007, 04:05 PM
You can't make that appeal in isolation. You have to give people something to compare against -- you're not saying one is bad, so much as communicating how one is better. Posters claiming Apple is resorting to "fear, uncertainty and doubt" strike me as off-the-mark. Keep things in perspective: We're talking about a consumer purchase. Would anyone accuse Bounty of FUD when it says its paper towels clean better than Company X or Company Y?

You're absolutely right, there's no evidence whatsoever of what this campaign actually is, but given what Apple has already shown us in the recent Get a Mac ads that address Vista, they aren't just going on TV and moaning about Windows.

Apple has to address exactly why OS X is superior to Windows because most average users do not know. Coinciding that with the confusion of the Vista launch is a smart business move.

Average users don't dislike "MS Windows" they just dislike "computers". Apple needs to make the distinction.

KingofAwesome
Feb 7, 2007, 04:06 PM
I think you're forgetting that Windows XP didn't support DVD video out-of-the-box either. The format's doing just fine. how much does "out of box" really weigh?

anyway, do Tiger support Blue Ray or HD?

No, I saw that when I found the article I linked (and I swear I thought the second article was dated yesterday... oh well). Out-of-the-box support admittedly doesn't mean much, but for some reason I felt the need to correct uNext for spouting off more incorrect info. I swear, I'm done caring what that frustrated little weiner has to say. First thing I do when I come into work tomorrow is look for an "ignore" option on this forum.

hopejr
Feb 7, 2007, 04:35 PM
This has probably been said before, but I don't see how this is going to help Apple get market share, and I don't see what else their trying to achieve by this. I know when I say negative things about Windows, it makes many of those people think I'm some sort of loser and less likely for them to look at Macs.

ppnkg
Feb 7, 2007, 04:44 PM
This is excellent news, as long as they are signs of a wider aggressive marketing strategy. If Apple really wants the mac to be genuinely an alternative to windows for the masses, then

a) release of leopard is imminent, and it is going to look good and include a number of cool features.
b) we should see dramatic improvements to what apple has to offer as an alternative to office. This will happen gradually, because MS will not or cannot pull the plug to office for mac right away
c) we'll probably going to see macs with better specs and prices will probably go down too.

Let's see.

The only thing I'm worried about is whether Apple's confidence in the security aspects of OSX is 100% justified. This is going to be a major battleground, very soon.

APPLENEWBIE
Feb 7, 2007, 04:44 PM
So many of the people that go into an Apple store already know what they are there for. I don't know that there are many folks that walk in there with the idea of .. hum.. am I going to switch today?!?!?! I just think that they will walk in.. chuckle at the antivista stuff and buy their Mac. I walked into a mac store for the first time knowing exactly what it was that i wanted. these guys have been converted prior to walking in. I just don't see the big deal here.


I agree. If the Apple stores are the battleground where T-shirts will be the weapons, then the battle will be mostly for the amusement of the choir. Not a big deal.

I believe that the current ad campaign is doing an excellent job of creating awareness that there is an alternative to Windows. When I switched 1 ½ years ago, I had no real knowledge of macs. I had gotten to the point were I was fairly knowledgeable about PC's, but Mac was not on my radar. It only got into my awareness when I went to a CompUSA store with a Windows disaster (one in a series), and was directed to the Mac department by a salesperson who was obviously tired of my story. It was really a revelation. It still surprises me that even being somewhat technologically minded, I was basically unaware that Mac was a viable alternative. What I am saying is that the current campaign IS drawing attention to a very small player in a very big game. And that is a good thing.

Bonte
Feb 7, 2007, 04:46 PM
This has probably been said before, but I don't see how this is going to help Apple get market share, and I don't see what else their trying to achieve by this. I know when I say negative things about Windows, it makes many of those people think I'm some sort of loser and less likely for them to look at Macs.

Problem is they will have to buy a new computer and that is one step to far, these adds only make sense if osX would run on there PC. :D

Freyqq
Feb 7, 2007, 04:58 PM
Problem is they will have to buy a new computer and that is one step to far, these adds only make sense if osX would run on there PC. :D

apple will not license osx in the near future. Apple is a company. They are there to make money. By selling the hardware and software together at a profit is how they make money. If they simply sold the OS, someone would buy OSX and forgo buying both the OS and the hardware. It makes no sense for apple. Sure, they may get some new customers and more share of the market, but not substantially.

Consider IE 6 v Firefox. Even though IE 6 was not even half as good in any way as Firefox, IE remains dominant by a considerable margin. And Firefox is free...

kcmac
Feb 7, 2007, 05:01 PM
Problem is they will have to buy a new computer and that is one step to far, these adds only make sense if osX would run on there PC. :D
A lot of these people may have to buy new computers to run Vista. These are the people Apple is going after. And they can run windows on the Mac.

iSlicer
Feb 7, 2007, 05:07 PM
You are never going to change some peoples minds! There are Mac only users, and there are Windows only users (lets forget the other OS's for the moment) It would be imposible to shake the foundations of their beliefs. However, their are a lot of agnostics (fence sitters) out there. People who are not tech savvy who simply do need a prod. You may as well capture these people with a Sunday door knock. Sure, some people will not be convinced and continue to sit on the fence but there will be a few who are willing to be swayed.

In my opinion, if the campaign is as good as the current Television comercials, it could actually be fun. This to me would be a great idea, especially while the Mac has so much credability. But, I also worry that if it comes across as too smug, those doors will be slammed in our faces.

Fingers are crossed.

Lone Deranger
Feb 7, 2007, 05:11 PM
Excellent article. A very interesting read. Thanks for posting that.
Imagine consumer software so flawless it never crashes.... oh the bliss.. :)


Not sure why uNext brought NASA into discussions... but here's an interesting article (http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/06/writestuff.html) from FastCompany that discusses the protocols and testing that goes into NASA software that meets stringent SEI Level 5 designation. They definitely do not use Microsoft products.... :)

Project
Feb 7, 2007, 05:14 PM
Its funny because I switched to the Mac little more than a year ago and all I ever read on this boards was a) why doesnt Apple point out the htings that are better on a Mac than Windows and b) Apple should really make the hype surrounding Vistas launch to their own advantage.

Well, thats exactly what they have done and people are mad? Lighten up! This is the small guy going after the big guy in any way he can to draw attention. This is a GOOD thing. The Mac would have been rolled over by the Vista marketing juggernaught but at least now people are talking about the Mac EVERY SINGLE TIME Vista is mentioned. And I have saw more 'Im a PC, Im a Mac' ads here in London than anything Vista related. So it seems to be working on that level.

Sure it would be nice to be able to just show off OSX and whatnot, but that doesnt get the people talking. And quite frankly, MS of all companies deserves a little but of piss taking at their expense. Lord knows they havent done their fair share of dirty work the past 20 years.

edit - Apple has shown a little humility too. On the UK Im a Mac adverts, there are ones that have the Pc saying 'Im better at the office stuff', and the Mac saying 'Im better at the home stuff'.

holamiamigos
Feb 7, 2007, 05:17 PM
woo go mac

iMikeT
Feb 7, 2007, 05:31 PM
Why so many negatives about this?

uNext
Feb 7, 2007, 05:33 PM
You should do stand-up, I haven't laughed this hard in months.

Between the beatiful iMac and your 3-year-premature discovery of the iPhone, I can't get enough. I hope you get a special on HBO, or at least a MySpace account or something.



What is really funny to me is that if apple comes out with a piece of ****
with a peanut on top, and jobs comes out and says is revolutionary. You will be among the first to defend its authenticity and swear up and down apple invented it.

The Iphone is far from innovative-they changed the names to make it appealing smartphones and regular phones in general have been able to browse the internet for years now. Internet communicator? whatever the name is yeah thats really INNOVATIVE.

And apple tv is so innovative it should be up there right underneath da-vincis bridge 1 the best creations in the world. I mean apple is so innovative with their products i can see why their campaign is so innovative and well thought off. Steve jobs & Co resort to elementary tactics and people praise them?> NOW THATS FUNNY.

Project
Feb 7, 2007, 05:37 PM
What is really funny to me is that if apple comes out with a piece of ****
with a peanut on top, and jobs comes out and says is revolutionary. You will be among the first to defend its authenticity and swear up and down apple invented it.

The Iphone is far from innovative-they changed the names to make it appealing smartphones and regular phones in general have been able to browse the internet for years now. Internet communicator? whatever the name is yeah thats really INNOVATIVE.

And apple tv is so innovative it should be up there right underneath da-vincis bridge 1 the best creations in the world. I mean apple is so innovative with their products i can see why their campaign is so innovative and well thought off. Steve jobs & Co resort to elementary tactics and people praise them?> NOW THATS FUNNY.


Erm, forgive me for being stupid, but what phone on the market is like the iPhone? What phone has a multi touch interface? What phone has a UI that looks even remotely like that (please dont mention the LG - ive seen it. very bland in comparison). What phone lets you browse your music by cover art with your fingers then flip it over to choose a track? What phone has visual voice mail? What phone has slide to unlock?

I wouldnt go as far as saying the iPhone is revolutionary, but to say its not innovative is absolutely absurd.

iSlicer
Feb 7, 2007, 05:38 PM
What is really funny to me is that if apple comes out with a piece of ****
with a peanut on top, and jobs comes out and says is revolutionary. You will be among the first to defend its authenticity and swear up and down apple invented it.

The Iphone is far from innovative-they changed the names to make it appealing smartphones and regular phones in general have been able to browse the internet for years now. Internet communicator? whatever the name is yeah thats really INNOVATIVE.> NOW THATS FUNNY.

There is so much of the iPhone that is innovative and that has simply never been seen in the market before. I don't have to list all of the features, they are written on the apple website. Sure, it is not perfect yet (battery life for 1), but the good thing is, It will not be released for another 5 months so they have time to change some of the features as they did with AppleTV. We can discuss that in another thread some time.

SMM
Feb 7, 2007, 05:39 PM
Thus resurface the snarky jabs that made me stay away from the Macintosh for over a decaded.

Well, I guess you have not been using computers, then. Or, do you just take exception to Apple doing comparative advertising?

SMM
Feb 7, 2007, 05:41 PM
What is really funny to me is that if apple comes out with a piece of ****
with a peanut on top, and jobs comes out and says is revolutionary. You will be among the first to defend its authenticity and swear up and down apple invented it.

The Iphone is far from innovative-they changed the names to make it appealing smartphones and regular phones in general have been able to browse the internet for years now. Internet communicator? whatever the name is yeah thats really INNOVATIVE.

And apple tv is so innovative it should be up there right underneath da-vincis bridge 1 the best creations in the world. I mean apple is so innovative with their products i can see why their campaign is so innovative and well thought off. Steve jobs & Co resort to elementary tactics and people praise them?> NOW THATS FUNNY.

Why are you trolling here? Are you paid to do it, or do you just lack anything better to do?

Dont Hurt Me
Feb 7, 2007, 05:58 PM
I wouldn't say that, but you're right that there are a couple of gaps in the product mix that could do with filling. A reborn Cube, priced properly, for one.

Anyway, that's for another thread (and another....and another...;) )

You got that right, we need another quicksilver or Cube or something for people with nice big displays. Imac is no solution so that means Mini or Workstation. Thats just pathetic but Apple likes to put itself into little corners. Its sad as Hell they play these games hence 5% of the market. Its a given the OS is the best by far so why arent the fan boys asking whats holding us down? Its the hardware configurations that holds down the Mac and Apple not wanting to sell the OS.

mrkramer
Feb 7, 2007, 06:03 PM
Why so many negatives about this?

possibly since people would like apple to point out the good things about their own operating system, instead of just making fun of Windows.

Belly-laughs
Feb 7, 2007, 06:11 PM
What is really funny to me is that if apple comes out with a piece of **** with a peanut on top…

Oh, the Zune. I think you´ve got MS and Apple mixed up.

sikkinixx
Feb 7, 2007, 06:13 PM
To me this totally strips Apple of its dignity. Negative campaigns are irrating and make you look like an arrogant ass. Perhaps things like this are why a lot of people seem to be rather anti-apple.

superfunkomatic
Feb 7, 2007, 06:14 PM
i think in terms of shear practicality and ease of use/migration to new OSes this article speaks volumes -
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ratcliffe/?p=257&tag=nl.e589

a 'showdown' of vista migration and mac os. exactly what the commercials are making fun of.

mac17
Feb 7, 2007, 06:16 PM
i dony know why everyones so negative i happen to love apples marketing it draws alot of attention, and its really entertaining,if they dont compare os x to vista they arnt protecting their property, they had things like search and widgets first and microsoft goes and steals it and bill has the audacity to say in interviews M$ is inovative!??! i know plenty of people who never used a mac but see the im a mac and im a pc ads and get curious and go check it out plus those adds are hilarious:D :apple: :apple: :apple:

jettredmont
Feb 7, 2007, 06:17 PM
The Iphone is far from innovative-they changed the names to make it appealing smartphones and regular phones in general have been able to browse the internet for years now. Internet communicator? whatever the name is yeah thats really INNOVATIVE.


Absolutely true, and I'm glad someone finally said it!

I mean, I had a phone where I could push buttons and talk back in 1982!!! Come on, you call the iPhone INNOVATIVE?

Finally, at last an anonymous braindead twerp in the MacRumors forums has spoken the truth no one has been willing to speak for fear of Jobsian imprisonment and torture! Apple has not a single innovative bone in their collective bodies! They tie tin cans to the tails of cats for fun! They hold journalists' families hostage, mailing one finger at a time back to the journalist who doesn't write a glowing review of their peanut-capped turds!

At last! Freedom!!!

Oh, have you seen that cool brown Zune? It's got a screeen, and, get this: it plays music. Not just any music, but music that I buy from Microsoft! I hear Microsoft's going to innovate circles around Apple and add an antenna and dial pad to it so you can talk to people who aren't even in the same room as you! I think I need to start talking into my Zune so I'm all practiced up with the Zhone comes out! Call me on my Zhone!

uNext
Feb 7, 2007, 06:21 PM
There is so much of the iPhone that is innovative and that has simply never been seen in the market before. I don't have to list all of the features, they are written on the apple website. Sure, it is not perfect yet (battery life for 1), but the good thing is, It will not be released for another 5 months so they have time to change some of the features as they did with AppleTV. We can discuss that in another thread some time.


Wow how innovative they added a 5 year old product(ipod) and combined it with a cell phone.....I mean seriously do any of you see pass whats in front of you? Everything thats considered INNOVATIVE FOR APPLE IS OLD IN THE REAL WORLD. The only reason why is new is because is a NEW APPLE CELL PHONE PRODUCT first apple branded mobile "communicator" with an apple appeal. Nothing new about it.

Sit down and think for a minute, take jobs charisma out of your ass and see that IT IS NOT THAT GREAT. I am willing to bet money that when apple decides to support MICROSOFT in their cell phones they will outsell anything out there till then is just another cripled product restricted to what jobs believes is good for you.

Remember apple would have been stuck with their amazing 1-2% market share if they would have never decided to SUPPORT MICROSOFT.

Lets be realistic they are attacking a company that helped them get the shares the yalways dreamed off.

AND DO YOU KNOW THAT APPLE IS PAYING MICROSOFT FOR THR RIGHTS TO USE THE VISTA NAME? have any of you heard of copyright infringement?
yeah apple is attacking microsoft but in the process they are paying them lol

NOW THATS FUNNY lol

MICROSOFT IS ALL ABOUT BUSINESS APPLE IS STILL IN KIDDY LAND. very obvious with their vista attacks.

sikkinixx
Feb 7, 2007, 06:21 PM
Finally, at last an anonymous braindead twerp [my emphasis] in the MacRumors forums has spoken the truth no one has been willing to speak for fear of Jobsian imprisonment and torture!

funny how someone who writes so eloquently needs to resort to calling people names...

aristobrat
Feb 7, 2007, 06:22 PM
How inovative is :apple: T.V REALLY?

Innovation is havign a gaming system where it connects to your computer and i tcan turn into a PVR. and stream any file from your computer to your t.v.

Apple did no come up with the whole stream to your tv content
sorry to burst your bubble.

The iMac amazing design all in one beatiful but guess what they where not the first all in one they did however make it sexy not INNOVATIVE more like evolution.

The iPod again was not the first to do it it evolved from what was already on the market they did make it sexy and usefull can it really be considered innovative?

the iPhone? i have had a phone that can what the iphone is claiming innoavtive for over 3 years now.

Once again they are not innovative they evolve products with great ideas.
They basically steal the idea or the concept and add that apple topping on top and pass it as innovative.
You're arguing over the definition of "INNOVATIVE".

Does it really matter?

Innovative. Evolutionary. Whatever.

The point is, Apple's taken quite a few "product designs that were already on the market" and {insert your own verb here}'ed them, creating huge hits that resonated well with the public.

Honestly, pitching such a fit about the term used to describe the products??!!

Peace
Feb 7, 2007, 06:22 PM
Absolutely true, and I'm glad someone finally said it!

I mean, I had a phone where I could push buttons and talk back in 1982!!! Come on, you call the iPhone INNOVATIVE?

Finally, at last an anonymous braindead twerp in the MacRumors forums has spoken the truth no one has been willing to speak for fear of Jobsian imprisonment and torture! Apple has not a single innovative bone in their collective bodies! They tie tin cans to the tails of cats for fun! They hold journalists' families hostage, mailing one finger at a time back to the journalist who doesn't write a glowing review of their peanut-capped turds!

At last! Freedom!!!

Oh, have you seen that cool brown Zune? It's got a screeen, and, get this: it plays music. Not just any music, but music that I buy from Microsoft! I hear Microsoft's going to innovate circles around Apple and add an antenna and dial pad to it so you can talk to people who aren't even in the same room as you! I think I need to start talking into my Zune so I'm all practiced up with the Zhone comes out! Call me on my Zhone!

You DO realize the iPhone has no "buttons" right ?

I could go on.....

psychofreak
Feb 7, 2007, 06:24 PM
You DO realize the iPhone has no "buttons" right ?

I could go on.....

Home button?

Also, I don't think you got the sarcasm, because of the post he quoted...

Peace
Feb 7, 2007, 06:25 PM
Home button?


sorry..

It has one button :rolleyes:

japanime
Feb 7, 2007, 06:27 PM
You know the old saying "There's no such thing as bad publicity"?

Apple sure is giving Vista a lot of publicity.

aristobrat
Feb 7, 2007, 06:31 PM
You know the old saying "There's no such thing as bad publicity"?

Apple sure is giving Vista a lot of publicity.
And Apple giving Vista a lot of publicity is giving Apple even more publicity. :eek:

TheBobcat
Feb 7, 2007, 06:32 PM
Wow how innovative they added a 5 year old product(ipod) and combined it with a cell phone.....I mean seriously do any of you see pass whats in front of you? Everything thats considered INNOVATIVE FOR APPLE IS OLD IN THE REAL WORLD. The only reason why is new is because is a NEW APPLE CELL PHONE PRODUCT first apple branded mobile "communicator" with an apple appeal. Nothing new about it.

Sit down and think for a minute, take jobs charisma out of your ass and see that IT IS NOT THAT GREAT. I am willing to bet money that when apple decides to support MICROSOFT in their cell phones they will outsell anything out there till then is just another cripled product restricted to what jobs believes is good for you.

Remember apple would have been stuck with their amazing 1-2% market share if they would have never decided to SUPPORT MICROSOFT.

Lets be realistic they are attacking a company that helped them get the shares the yalways dreamed off.

AND DO YOU KNOW THAT APPLE IS PAYING MICROSOFT FOR THR RIGHTS TO USE THE VISTA NAME? have any of you heard of copyright infringement?
yeah apple is attacking microsoft but in the process they are paying them lol

NOW THATS FUNNY lol

MICROSOFT IS ALL ABOUT BUSINESS APPLE IS STILL IN KIDDY LAND. very obvious with their vista attacks.

Can a mod please ban this troll? A quick look at all of his posts show that all he does is incite people, as is most obvious in this thread, and adds nothing intelligent to the conversation.