Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard), iLife '07, and iWork '07 in March? [Archive]

MacRumors

Feb 9, 2007, 02:37 PM

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

ThinkSecret reports (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0702leopardilife.html) that Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard) development is "wrapping up faster than many at Apple even anticipated" and that the newest version of Mac OS X could be expected as soon as the end of March.

The rumor site also expects that Apple will launch the new versions of iLife '07 and iWork '07 alongside Leopard. They claim that both iLife and iWork were delayed due to the addition of some Leopard-specific features to the productivity suites.

Apple last stated (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/01/17/mac-os-10-5-leopard-in-spring-2007-and-ilife-soon/) that Leopard would still ship in spring and implied that the iLife suite would be updated soon.

jono_3

Feb 9, 2007, 02:38 PM

cool, here hoping

paddy

Feb 9, 2007, 02:38 PM

Ooh thats great 'cos Im hoping to get a new mac around then, yay!

Pieira

Feb 9, 2007, 02:39 PM

I hope so, I need my new mac.

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 02:40 PM

I sure hope it comes out atleast then, they can take there time so unlike VISTA it wont be released prematurely (i dont know if that works for VISTA seeing as it had 5 years) but Apple knows what there doing so i just hope it comes out around then, I'm really impatient. :apple: :apple: :apple:

Hls811

Feb 9, 2007, 02:42 PM

March 6th - New Guns N' Roses CD (Yes I'm a believer!)
March 12th - MLB 2K7 for the Xbox 360
End of March - OS X 10.5 and iLife

March may be my new favorite month.

donlphi

Feb 9, 2007, 02:43 PM

Yeah... but my software probably won't work with it until June, so there's to hoping.

Software that probably will not work instantaneously when 10.5 is installed:

Finale
Band In A Box
CUBASE
Pro Tools
Quark Express
etc. etc.

I'm sure new iLife will be nicer though...

photomaniac

Feb 9, 2007, 02:45 PM

SWEET! ...but I my impatient arse can't wait that long :(

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 02:48 PM

March 6th - New Guns N' Roses CD (Yes I'm a believer!)
March 12th - MLB 2K7 for the Xbox 360
End of March - OS X 10.5 and iLife

March may be my new favorite month.

Dont forget March 23-Aqua Teen Hunger Force Movie and
March 20- Modest Mouse CD

uNext

Feb 9, 2007, 02:52 PM

I love vista and i cant wait to have them both running on my macbook pro.

BenHoleton

Feb 9, 2007, 02:54 PM

Yay!! New computer with Leopard, iLife, and iWork 07!

L3X

Feb 9, 2007, 02:54 PM

...this i pray

Stridder44

Feb 9, 2007, 02:55 PM

I love vista and i cant wait to have them both running on my macbook pro.

I want to love vista, simply for it's looks. But I'm gonna have to give it time for the bugs to be worked out, just like Leopard.

dsnort

Feb 9, 2007, 02:56 PM

Does anyone know if Thinksecret has been right about anything lately?

mi5moav

Feb 9, 2007, 02:57 PM

Hmm, wonder if they pulled a Microsoft and decided to pull some things out. Like those 5 very cool things that they were keeping hidden. So, I guess we'll see those in 10.6 and they will probably just say turn you copy of vista in and we'll give you a free copy of leopard to run on your 2007 intel pc.

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 02:59 PM

Yay!! New computer with Leopard, iLife, and iWork 07!

youll still have to pay for iWork 07

BoyBach

Feb 9, 2007, 03:00 PM

A few weeks to get the final version of Leopard out to all the developers to test and then to press the DVD's, start the marketing hype, etc.

Isn't March a bit too soon?

Stella

Feb 9, 2007, 03:00 PM

Apple have time to QA test and iron out bugs. OSX 10.3 and 10.4 ( and all other software ) were fairly buggy on their release - bugs that were glearingly obvious.

Don't rush Apple - it'll cost you more in the long run.

"The rumor site also expects that Apple will launch the new versions of iLife '07 and iWork '07 alongside Leopard. They claim that both iLife and iWork were delayed due to the addition of some Leopard-specific features to the productivity suites."

Unfortunately this is done to encourage people to upgrade. Apple tend not to make their software backwards compatible.

Mgkwho

Feb 9, 2007, 03:01 PM

YAY!

But TS is just rehashing what we've already been speculating...

-=|Mgkwho

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 03:02 PM

Still tho when is 10.4.9 comin out? Its not a big deal (prolly) but jw.

patseguin

Feb 9, 2007, 03:04 PM

I couldn't be less excited about Leopard at this point. What about the "top secret features"? I don't see any compelling reason to upgrade for $130 at this point.

andiwm2003

Feb 9, 2007, 03:05 PM

please release ilife and iwork sooner than that. i won't upgrade to leopard before 10.5.3 anyway. so i will be using iwork with tiger for the next time anyway.

Toe

Feb 9, 2007, 03:07 PM

I couldn't be less excited about Leopard at this point. What about the "top secret features"? I don't see any compelling reason to upgrade for $130 at this point.

I would pay $130 just for Time Machine.

And I'd give one or two body parts for the new Mail and iCal.

I'd also like to have an OS that was built for an Intel processor (Tiger was developed for PPC, then ported to Intel).

P.S. And compare the $130 for all the new cool stuff in Leopard vs. the $200-400 for the lame-excuse-for-an-upgrade called Vista.

danielwsmithee

Feb 9, 2007, 03:08 PM

While I look forward to the Leopard update. I look forward much more to see the updated iWork/iLife that uses leopard technology. Obviously they will have time machine built in. I wonder what other features though, animation effects etc.

I also still expect some unseen changes to finder. I don't mind the interface now it could just use some polishing.

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 03:08 PM

please release ilife and iwork sooner than that. i won't upgrade to leopard before 10.5.3 anyway. so i will be using iwork with tiger for the next time anyway.

They can't release iLife or iWork before leopard because they are going to be for leopard and to release them before Leopard gives away the new UI or whatever it is they are doing. Leopard is going to be a significant upgrade, on the level beyond the apps. It's obviously big enough for them to call it a hole new operating system.

zelet

Feb 9, 2007, 03:08 PM

There better be HUGE updates to the red-headed-step-child dotMac. If they don't update that suite of services soon I'm bailing and never looking back.

Kwill

Feb 9, 2007, 03:08 PM

Everything is heading for an early Spring delivery. It will be a great year! I can see the big grin between the two round circles on my credit card.:D

siurpeeman

Feb 9, 2007, 03:09 PM

I couldn't be less excited about Leopard at this point. What about the "top secret features"? I don't see any compelling reason to upgrade for $130 at this point.

a fully 64-bit operating system is reason enough for me. anything else is gravy.

Kwill

Feb 9, 2007, 03:09 PM

Everything is heading for an early Spring delivery. It will be a great year! I can see the big grin between the two round circles on my credit card.:D

Rocketman

Feb 9, 2007, 03:09 PM

I almost hate to be repetitious, but I told you so!.

Rocketman

Egomaniac

Feb 9, 2007, 03:10 PM

Not to rain on everyone's parade, but I'm highly skeptical. I've got the latest seed of Leopard, and it's still not even close to ready for prime time.

That's not in any way an insult to Apple or Leopard -- it's a beta, it's not supposed to be ready for prime time yet. It's going to be a fantastic OS when it's done, but I just don't see it getting patched up to release quality in the next month. I'm under NDA, so I can't go down the list of all the things that aren't working yet, but trust me there are some pretty simple and fundamental things which just don't work at all.

Also, we're still in the dark on the "top secret" features. One of them is assuredly ZFS -- I suppose I can talk about this since it has been so thoroughly leaked -- but that doesn't work at all right now either. The hooks are obviously there, you can attempt to format a volume as ZFS, but after scores of attempts I have never managed to create a working ZFS volume. In the current seed it doesn't even try, it just errors out immediately.

Now, consider a March release which includes ZFS. Even if they finished the ZFS implementation today, they've got four or five weeks to test it. ZFS is an incredibly complex beast and errors in the implementation would be catastrophic -- at worst, complete loss of all of your data. And when do developers get their hands on it? The current seed has a non-working implementation. If Apple is going to give us the chance to make sure that the new filesystem doesn't cause any compatibility problems between now and March, we're going to need to see a new seed with ZFS support really soon.

Then, what about resolution independence? We know it's coming, Quartz Debug lets us test it, but there is no "real" UI in the system to access it and many of Apple's own applications don't work properly with it. As a programmer myself, I'll be highly impressed if they get resolution independence working properly in the next few weeks.

A March release is possible -- I would be thrilled to have to eat my words on this -- but I am skeptical.

jklps

Feb 9, 2007, 03:11 PM

Woohoo! :)

Toe

Feb 9, 2007, 03:11 PM

Can't wait... iLife 07 is rumored to have a spreadsheet application. That completes Apple's one-to-one competition with the MS Office Suite.

Except for Access, which isn't part of iWork. Wouldn't it be nice if they made FileMaker a full part of the iWork suite, instead of having it sit in limbo over there in the FileMaker division? It hardly seems like an Apple product at all right now...

EagerDragon

Feb 9, 2007, 03:11 PM

I hope they package iLife with the OS, they go together, that is what is shown to bring the switchers so they should come together.

Bring it on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:cool:

danielwsmithee

Feb 9, 2007, 03:11 PM

I'd also like to have an OS that was built for an Intel processor (Tiger was developed for PPC, then ported to Intel).I agree with everything else you said, but OS X from the beginning was developed as a cross platform OS to support both Intel & PPC. That does not change in Leopard, it's not like they are going to drop support for PPC macs. There may be some more optimization for SSE3 etc, and there may also be more 64-bit optimizations since for the first time all but one of their computers are 64-bit (which will likely change before Leopard release), but it will still support 32 machines.

backsidetailsli

Feb 9, 2007, 03:11 PM

cool ill buy it on my way to the black label society concert

Toe

Feb 9, 2007, 03:13 PM

They can't release iLife or iWork before leopard because they are going to be for leopard and to release them before Leopard gives away the new UI or whatever it is they are doing. Leopard is going to be a significant upgrade, on the level beyond the apps. It's obviously big enough for them to call it a hole new operating system.

They will integrate with Leopard, but Apple would never alienate MOST of its users by making iLife require an OS upgrade.

More likely, there will just be particular features (such as ones dependent on Core Animation) which only work in Leopard.

maxp1

Feb 9, 2007, 03:16 PM

Can't come soon enough.

Want to upgrade from 10.3.9. Tiger wasn't really all that exciting for me regarding features that I use often so I didn't bother. I think this one is going to be big enough for me to go for it. Built in virtual desktops. Yes. I'll use that all the time. Time Machine. Absolutely.

Hopefully we'll get new MBPs with this too.

Toe

Feb 9, 2007, 03:17 PM

I agree with everything else you said, but OS X from the beginning was developed as a cross platform OS to support both Intel & PPC. That does not change in Leopard, it's not like they are going to drop support for PPC macs. There may be some more optimization for SSE3 etc, and there may also be more 64-bit optimizations since for the first time all but one of their computers are 64-bit (which will likely change before Leopard release), but it will still support 32 machines.

I didn't mean to say that Leopard would exclude PPC... only that Tiger is at its heart a PPC OS, and Leopard will be fundamentally an Intel OS.

Either will run on either, but I fully expect Leopard to be significantly more optimized for Intel than Tiger could hope to be. PPC is now a legacy platform, and all development is primarily focused on Intel.

daveL

Feb 9, 2007, 03:17 PM

Even if 10.5 doesn't come out until April or May - or even June - something has certainly changed with the way Apple seeds test releases to the development community. There have been very few developer seeds of 10.5, compared to 10.3 and 10.4. With the last OS X releases, you could track the progress of the new release by observing the seed build numbers and the frequency of the seeds. This time around, the seed releases have been few and far between. I suppose this has something to do with the seeds being leaked in the past, with very complete and functional betas readily available on the 'net. Apple must have really tightened up on who sees the *real* beta seeds, otherwise the seeding activity would point to a much delayed 10.5 release.

MacsRgr8

Feb 9, 2007, 03:18 PM

Not to rain on everyone's parade, but I'm highly skeptical. I've got the latest seed of Leopard, and it's still not even close to ready for prime time.

I am with Egomaniac

There are a couple of things that worry me if March is the release date:

- the latest 9A343 seed is nowhere near stable
- developer builds usually become more frequently available as the GM comes nearer
- where the **** are the top-secret features Jobs was bragging about @ the WWDC last year.

Unless there is some "top-secret enabled" version of Leopard which has never been seeded to the developers which is far more reliable, I can't see this OS being released next month.

iLife '07 and iWork '07 I can see happening.
It wouldn't surprise me to see some "media event" where the launch of iLife and iWork '07 are celebrated, where a new dev build of the "top-secret enabled" Leopard is demoed, where the real release date will be called.

codo

Feb 9, 2007, 03:19 PM

I couldn't be less excited about Leopard at this point. What about the "top secret features"? I don't see any compelling reason to upgrade for $130 at this point.

I agree. Email templates - Wow!

Really disheartened with Apple recently. Hopefully there will be something simply awesome in Leopard that they have held back until the last moment.

I really really want to see an interface refresh, I'm not saying overhaul, that brings OS X up to Vista's eye-candy - I agree with the Wired Mac guy, OS X looks slightly dated in comparison.

I don't care if it's right, but half the attraction of an Apple Mac for me was its attractive design, both on screen and off. I don't want a £399 Dell running Vista making my Mac look less attractive - So c'mon Apple, satisfy my vanity.

zblaxberg

Feb 9, 2007, 03:22 PM

I love vista and i cant wait to have them both running on my macbook pro.

die!

vista is a piece of crap that was stolen from apple...I'm a switcher and I'm never going back to windows

andiwm2003

Feb 9, 2007, 03:23 PM

Not to rain on everyone's parade, but I'm highly skeptical. I've got the latest seed of Leopard, and it's still not even close to ready for prime time.
.................................................
A March release is possible -- I would be thrilled to have to eat my words on this -- but I am skeptical.

that's why i won't upgrade before 10.5.3 (maybe 10.5.2 if the reports are good) and i leave it to you guy's to be the lab rat's;)

but i can't imagine that they hold back iwork for another 3 month just it uses some shiny new button under leopard. it has to run under tiger as well.

Toe

Feb 9, 2007, 03:24 PM

I really really want to see an interface refresh, I'm not saying overhaul, that brings OS X up to Vista's eye-candy - I agree with the Wired Mac guy, OS X looks slightly dated in comparison.

I don't care if it's right, but half the attraction of an Apple Mac for me was its attractive design, both on screen and off. I don't want a £399 Dell running Vista making my Mac look less attractive - So c'mon Apple, satisfy my vanity.
There's classy-nice and there's tacky-nice. Just randomly adding some interface features always results in the second. Heck, Apple is moving away from the brushed metal because it is bulky and crowds out useful content.

That said... when comparing looks, no Dell can come close to comparing to my BlackBook in cool-lookingness. No way. Not even a contest.

p0intblank

Feb 9, 2007, 03:25 PM

Then what's with the WWDC invitation? It implies Leopard will be released then... unless they're just using Time Machine's interface to make the invite fancy. In any case, I need iLife '07 now! The same goes for Leopard, but part of me wants iLife more.

FreeState

Feb 9, 2007, 03:26 PM

Does anyone know if Thinksecret has been right about anything lately?

No they have not. However one of the posters in the forums has, she was spot on about the iPhone (in detail) weeks before it was announced. She also said the release date for OSX, what TS is now reporting. I think TS may have gotten this right because of the poster in the forums that obviously has a great source. (I looked for the post but it appears to be gone now... sorry)

pcguru83

Feb 9, 2007, 03:28 PM

I'd also like to have an OS that was built for an Intel processor (Tiger was developed for PPC, then ported to Intel).

That's just simply not true. OS X has been written with an Intel in chip in mind for several years if I'm not mistaken.

EDIT: Heh, nevermind. Missed the second page with all the resposnes to that. :o

eji

Feb 9, 2007, 03:29 PM

andiwm2003

Feb 9, 2007, 03:31 PM

I'm wondering if iLife '07 won't actually be a part of Leopard. That would encourage everyone who's still using Tiger or lower to upgrade to the latest OS... pay $130 for 10.5, get iLife (which depends on 10.5) free.

nice try. you gonna pay $130 for leopard and $79 for ilife. that one is sure. eventually almost everybody will upgrade the system anyway. always was like this.

mkjellman

Feb 9, 2007, 03:32 PM

Those who don't have access to beta's shouldn't raise false alarm. There are HUGE bugs that still exist, going all the way to the kernel. I think Apple means it....they have yet to speed up their beta program...

just look at the frequency: and without breaking any NDA's its all available on the internet right now...they are on a monthly release schedule....that is not what will happen one month before it goes GM. Sorry.

lazyrighteye

Feb 9, 2007, 03:32 PM

twoodcc

Feb 9, 2007, 03:34 PM

SWEET! ...but I my impatient arse can't wait that long :(

yeah, finally some good news about the 3 things that i want! but i'm impatient too....

Toddgabweg

Feb 9, 2007, 03:40 PM

As soon as this is released I will be buying a 24in imac...

Toe

Feb 9, 2007, 03:40 PM

I really want Leopard in March, but June seems like a possibility, because:

As others mention, it just doesn't seem ready.
It is scheduled for Spring, which starts at the end of March, and goes through... June.
The Developer's conference is set for June
The iPhone release is scheduled for June.

OTOH, I can see them trying to separate the iPhone, DevCon, and Leopard so that the various announcements don't crowd each other out...

ksgant

Feb 9, 2007, 03:41 PM

CANEHDN

Feb 9, 2007, 03:41 PM

I hate having money sitting in my account waiting for stuff. I want to spend that money on a new MBP and Leopard and iLife'07. I want upgrades. I want them now. The Mac area of Apple has been significantly lacking recently. It needs a huge boost. I'm tired of hearing about iPhone and iPod. I want new comps and new software.

uNext

Feb 9, 2007, 03:41 PM

die!

vista is a piece of crap that was stolen from apple...I'm a switcher and I'm never going back to windows

Vista is not a piece of crap i personally feel like vista is a good operating system.

But theres something about windows that i ant get rid of..
i like mac os x but i just cant shake windows.

Unlike the millions of people i feel like windows operating systems are good i have nevere had any issues with nothing on a xp machine. Maybe i am lucky or the computer gods watch over me.

Eidorian

Feb 9, 2007, 03:43 PM

Leopard - March
Santa Rosa platform based Macs - May?

Toe

Feb 9, 2007, 03:44 PM

CANEHDN

Feb 9, 2007, 03:44 PM

KingofAwesome

Feb 9, 2007, 03:44 PM

What is the grace period for buying a new Mac and getting Leopard and iLife? Is it 30 days? Is there even a grace period?

I JUST bought my new 24" today. No matter what, I couldn't wait. If I end up having to pay for Leopard, so be it. I needed the computer.

I think the grace period starts shortly after the release date is announced. Doesn't he usually say all Macs purchased between now and the release date will be eligible for a free upgrade?

I just hope the upgrade process works, because I won't be able to rely on Time Machine until after it installs!

CANEHDN

Feb 9, 2007, 03:45 PM

For those talking about having to wait for releases before buying, can I introduce you to the Time Value of Money (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Value_of_Money)?

If you need a computer now and don't buy it, how much value are you losing over the period of time where you don't have that computer? Is that time worth more than $130 to you? If so, then... stop waiting!

Just a suggestion. :D

But how much are you gaining from having a few thousand in your account for a few extra months. Interest on that can make a few extra bucks. Make sure you weigh all aspects.

andiwm2003

Feb 9, 2007, 03:46 PM

Toe

Feb 9, 2007, 03:47 PM

You guys watch. Once these "secret" leopard features are announced, seeds of the OS will become much more frequent. I think they should do a public beta release. That would ensure more bugs get fixed by release.
It is possible that the secret features won't be beta tested at all. They could be relatively self-contained applications that don't need a broad testing audience.

Apple releases a lot of software without any testing, most notably every version of every application in iLife and iWork, not to mention smaller apps like AirPort stuff, QuickTime, and so on.

KingofAwesome

Feb 9, 2007, 03:48 PM

how much value are you losing over the period of time where you don't have that computer? Is that time worth more than $130 to you? If so, then... stop waiting!

Just a suggestion. :D

We're still missing the "period of time" part of the equation, though. Once we get a release date we can figure all that out.

CANEHDN

Feb 9, 2007, 03:48 PM

you are the PERFECT customer all sales people dream of:D

Except I don't buy easily when a salesman is involved. Sorry for all you salesman out there but the lot of them are crooks. A lot of them lie. I just know what I want, and if the wife lets me, I get want I want.

TheBobcat

Feb 9, 2007, 03:48 PM

Vista is not a piece of crap i personally feel like vista is a good operating system.

But theres something about windows that i ant get rid of..
i like mac os x but i just cant shake windows.

Unlike the millions of people i feel like windows operating systems are good i have nevere had any issues with nothing on a xp machine. Maybe i am lucky or the computer gods watch over me.

Maybe it's all those improvements they made for NASA. Or the extra money Apple is giving them to say the word Vista. They're all correct answers.

Anywho, maybe we'll hear about the Top Secret Features in March, but you would think if it was coming that fast we would already know everything so Apple could test all their stuff with developers. They just can't not test this new stuff. Maybe not as late as June, but I definitely don't see it in March.

CANEHDN

Feb 9, 2007, 03:49 PM

We're still missing the "period of time" part of the equation, though. Once we get a release date we can figure all that out.

Exactly. Apple please give us dates. That is all we ask, at this point in time. Just some dates.

KingofAwesome

Feb 9, 2007, 03:52 PM

Exactly. Apple please give us dates. That is all we ask, at this point in time. Just some dates.

I don't think Apple is going to give me a date. I think being an Apple geek makes it harder to get dates, actually.

But maybe it's a secret new feature in iLife.

mustang_dvs

Feb 9, 2007, 03:52 PM

I disagree with Egomaniac.

Comparing the ADC seeds of 10.5 to those of 10.4 and 10.3, Apple has definitely put a lid on some features and functionality in the builds released into the wilds of the ADC community. I'll agree that what been released to us in the ADC isn't ready for prime-time, but I don't think that we're privy to the full-blown builds, anymore.

If that's the case, Apple isn't to blame -- it's the morons who signed an NDA and then nonetheless shared the development seeds on every p2p network they could think of.

Personally, I can't wait for the GM to hit the ADC site -- I'd very much like to run iCal sharing and the group wiki on my production server, but there's no way I'm trusting it to developer builds.

(And I'd like to upgrade to a rev2 MacPro.)

Toe

Feb 9, 2007, 03:54 PM

I don't think Apple is going to give me a date. I think being an Apple geek makes it harder to get dates, actually.
Well... who do you think gets more dates? Mac Guy or PC Guy?

:D

ctsport1234

Feb 9, 2007, 03:58 PM

the sooner the better, I will be ordering on the day of release :D

KingofAwesome

Feb 9, 2007, 04:01 PM

Well... who do you think gets more dates? Mac Guy or PC Guy?

:D

Heh, one day Mac guy is going to be at the g hole and find the voice on the other side to be vaguely familiar, oh wait! It's PC!

Thus giving Mac its first virus.

tcmcam

Feb 9, 2007, 04:02 PM

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 04:09 PM

This will never happen by March. Just look at the most recent builds (posted by the rumor sites), they are defintely not feature complete yet.

My guess.... Leopard will be showcased the FIRST DAY of WWDC. And go on sale TUESDAY at 12:00AM, Jun 12th. That is still spring....

Anything released before then will be a buggy piece of junk. Wait till June, you'll be happy you did.

That doesnt even make sence...What would come before leopard that would be a buggy piece of junk. What has mac ever released (besides puma) that was extermely buggy?

maverick808

Feb 9, 2007, 04:10 PM

I agree with the others that say there is no way a March release is a possibility due to current state of the Leopard builds. The current seed is extremely buggy, crashes all the time, and it's clear massive areas of applications are unfinished (try using the Preview app or the new Quick Look feature and you'll see this is the case).

Furthermore, there is NOTHING in them that hasn't been discussed by Steve at the last WWDC so where are the ten secret features?

Given that great portions of what's in there just now has to be completed, there's tons of bugs left AND the "top secret" features have still to be put in and be tested, I'm concerned Leopard won't be ready by July... nevermind in a month's time!

notjustjay

Feb 9, 2007, 04:12 PM

They claim that both iLife and iWork were delayed due to the addition of some Leopard-specific features to the productivity suites.

Wouldn't this mean that The Rest Of Us (tm) wouldn't be able to upgrade iLife or iWork without also upgrading to Leopard?

:confused:

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 04:13 PM

dashiel

Feb 9, 2007, 04:13 PM

I didn't mean to say that Leopard would exclude PPC... only that Tiger is at its heart a PPC OS, and Leopard will be fundamentally an Intel OS.

Either will run on either, but I fully expect Leopard to be significantly more optimized for Intel than Tiger could hope to be. PPC is now a legacy platform, and all development is primarily focused on Intel.

you are mistaken. the intel/ppc thing isn't a port, they are concurrent builds.

OS X is built on what was NeXT's OpenStep OS. OpenStep started out on motorola 68000 processors just like the original mac, but when sales of the NeXT cube were slow the OS was ported to intel's x86, sun's sparc, and hp's RISC (different from AIM's version, AIM being apple, ibm and motorola). OpenStep never officially supported AIM's PPC chip implementation. the time from purchasing NeXT to releasing OS X 10.0 was spent in large part porting the code to PPC.

this isn't like the 68000 to PPC switch, or the classic to OS X switch and PPC is not a legacy system. the first two transitions were clearly leaving dead-end technology behind. this switch is far more transient, should IBM come up with a paradigm shift in processor development, apple doesn't even need to flip a switch anymore, OS X will just work*. developers who are dropping PPC support could find themselves back in this situation 5-10 years down the road. i don't think it's likely, but the adaptability of OS X and the closed software/hardware platform make it very easy for apple to do if they wanted.

* that's a gross oversimplification, but it'll be far easier for apple to release a PPC system 5 years from now, than it would be for microsoft to release a PPC version of vista.

Ibjr

Feb 9, 2007, 04:19 PM

I'd also like to have an OS that was built for an Intel processor (Tiger was developed for PPC, then ported to Intel).

No. You are simply wrong. If you mean it fully use current tech then sure but tiger was developed for both.

Izzy

Feb 9, 2007, 04:35 PM

Wouldn't this mean that The Rest Of Us (tm) wouldn't be able to upgrade iLife or iWork without also upgrading to Leopard?

:confused:

Yeah, I think they are probably Leopard dependant otherwise they would have had the 2007 versions out by now.

kevs

Feb 9, 2007, 04:36 PM

die!

vista is a piece of crap that was stolen from apple...I'm a switcher and I'm never going back to windows

just don't forget that Apple first got it's visual UI way back when from Xerox. :)

lorien

Feb 9, 2007, 04:38 PM

This years April fools day is going to be nailbiting by the sound of it

iMikeT

Feb 9, 2007, 04:43 PM

Nothing but speculation. I'm not even going to try to get myself excited incase of nothing being released at all.

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 04:47 PM

Yeah, I think they are probably Leopard dependant otherwise they would have had the 2007 versions out by now.

Apple is not going to close out the people that dont upgrade to Leopard. Yes there are going to be some leopard integration that only can be used with Leopard, but tiger users will still be able to use iLife and iWork as well.

thejadedmonkey

Feb 9, 2007, 04:49 PM

so do I get my MacBook now, or try to coax this piece of crap laptop to keep going for another few months..

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 04:52 PM

so do I get my MacBook now, or try to coax this piece of crap laptop to keep going for another few months..

what you got?

BLACK MAC

Feb 9, 2007, 04:52 PM

I sure hope that it comes out early. I would really like that. :D

k2k koos

Feb 9, 2007, 04:53 PM

Isn't the current build of Leopard 'buggy' , because there are secret parts MISSING? Once these are in (whatever they are), the whole thing comes together. IE, perhaps the builds you all receive are missing chunks of code, specifically for the 'secret features', which otherwise would end up leaked all over the place?
I am looking forward to Leopard, but I don't care when it's released much, March or June, just as long as Apple makes sure that when it is released, it'd better be ready and virtually bug free!

Whistleway

Feb 9, 2007, 04:55 PM

Great.. no super secret features then.. :(

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 04:55 PM

Whistleway

Feb 9, 2007, 04:56 PM

so do I get my MacBook now, or try to coax this piece of crap laptop to keep going for another few months..

Just keep chugging.

It is always better to get the latest and newest iLife/ OS X for free with your machine than pay 100s of dollars to Apple later on...

Redneck1089

Feb 9, 2007, 04:59 PM

March 6th - New Guns N' Roses CD (Yes I'm a believer!)

March may be my new favorite month.

Man, I hope we get Chinese Democracy, but I doubt it will happen. Did you read Axl's open letter to the fans? It takes six weeks to promote an album, and so far there's been no promotion. Maybe this summer...or sometime in the next five to ten years we'll get it. Sorry to rain on your parade!
:p

Leopard is gonna rock!! :D :D :apple:

Whistleway

Feb 9, 2007, 05:02 PM

would 10.5 be the last ever OS for G4 PPC?

gmanrique

Feb 9, 2007, 05:03 PM

as you said, has a non-working implementation. The final release will not have it at all.

Not to rain on everyone's parade, but I'm highly skeptical. I've got the latest seed of Leopard, and it's still not even close to ready for prime time.

That's not in any way an insult to Apple or Leopard -- it's a beta, it's not supposed to be ready for prime time yet. It's going to be a fantastic OS when it's done, but I just don't see it getting patched up to release quality in the next month. I'm under NDA, so I can't go down the list of all the things that aren't working yet, but trust me there are some pretty simple and fundamental things which just don't work at all.

Also, we're still in the dark on the "top secret" features. One of them is assuredly ZFS -- I suppose I can talk about this since it has been so thoroughly leaked -- but that doesn't work at all right now either. The hooks are obviously there, you can attempt to format a volume as ZFS, but after scores of attempts I have never managed to create a working ZFS volume. In the current seed it doesn't even try, it just errors out immediately.

Now, consider a March release which includes ZFS. Even if they finished the ZFS implementation today, they've got four or five weeks to test it. ZFS is an incredibly complex beast and errors in the implementation would be catastrophic -- at worst, complete loss of all of your data. And when do developers get their hands on it? The current seed has a non-working implementation. If Apple is going to give us the chance to make sure that the new filesystem doesn't cause any compatibility problems between now and March, we're going to need to see a new seed with ZFS support really soon.

Then, what about resolution independence? We know it's coming, Quartz Debug lets us test it, but there is no "real" UI in the system to access it and many of Apple's own applications don't work properly with it. As a programmer myself, I'll be highly impressed if they get resolution independence working properly in the next few weeks.

A March release is possible -- I would be thrilled to have to eat my words on this -- but I am skeptical.

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 05:04 PM

would 10.5 be the last ever OS for G4 PPC?

what year? i think its 8 years before they dont support it any more

JQW

Feb 9, 2007, 05:05 PM

Yeah, I think they are probably Leopard dependant otherwise they would have had the 2007 versions out by now.

I wonder if 10.4.9 is going to introduce a new framework back ported from Leopard? If iLife and iWork 07 both depend on this framework, then this may explain the delay.

They did something similar with Webkit and 10.2.8 (and the limited release 10.2.7), hence the reason why 10.2.8 is the minimum Mac OS revision for some applications, notably iTunes prior to version 7.

Perhaps the same will happen here?

Toe

Feb 9, 2007, 05:05 PM

this switch is far more transient, should IBM come up with a paradigm shift in processor development, apple doesn't even need to flip a switch anymore, OS X will just work*.
Nonetheless, there are real differences between the PPC and the Core Duo. The first example that comes to mind is that, AFAIK, the latter does not have an AltiVec (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AltiVec) engine.

As Apple gets further away from the PPC, when they try to optimize performance, they're going to be looking to the particular accelerations available in the Intel chips, not in the PPCs.

seashellz2

Feb 9, 2007, 05:11 PM

I'd rather have a solidly working Leopard, than an early one.
I remember the egg on Apples face with the big-splash release of Jaguar...

QCassidy352

Feb 9, 2007, 05:11 PM

A few weeks to get the final version of Leopard out to all the developers to test and then to press the DVD's, start the marketing hype, etc.

Isn't March a bit too soon?

I was thinking that too, but then I did the math... It could be released 7 weeks from today and still be just barely in March. So let's say they give the "final" version to developers in a week, give them 3 weeks to test it, and then ramp up the DVD press and the media hype for 3 weeks. That works, doesn't it?

That said, I do agree with the post that said better that Apple takes its time and avoids the glaring bugs that have marked 10.3.0 and 10.4.0. If they can get a fairly bug-free version out in March then GREAT, but I really hope they don't rush it to market.

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 05:12 PM

I'd rather have a solidly working Leopard, than an early one.
I remember the egg on Apples face with the big-splash release of Jaguar...

and puma was a wreck

williedigital

Feb 9, 2007, 05:13 PM

why would they release dev seeds at all if there were huge chunks of code "hidden" from testers. From what I hear, there isn't much new there to test...

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 05:14 PM

it was extremely buggy....i think it was Puma, it was one of the early releases of OSX

Zwhaler

Feb 9, 2007, 05:14 PM

Haha, when I read my MR widget it said "Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard), iLife 07, and i..."

I thought it was released today... nearly had a heart attack! Keep the rumors comin.

Toe

Feb 9, 2007, 05:15 PM

Consensus among the PC magazines when talking about the release of Vista is that Tiger is already better than Vista in most regards.

Other than a nice boost of money (though not massive compared to iPods, music, and Macs), what incentive does Apple have to release Leopard early?

They have until June 30 to get the iPhone version finalized. And they have until June 20 to release Leopard.

The only incentive to beat the June 20 deadline for Leopard is to give more time for it to be in the spotlight before the iPhone comes out. So June 2 sounds like the best day to release Leopard.

Now it does make perfect sense that they could be releasing only iLife and iWork in March. Those are overdue already. There's no way those won't run on Tiger, so the only thing stopping them from releasing those is that they don't have any beta program.

Peace

Feb 9, 2007, 05:25 PM

I am with Egomaniac

There are a couple of things that worry me if March is the release date:

- the latest 9A343 seed is nowhere near stable
- developer builds usually become more frequently available as the GM comes nearer
- where the **** are the top-secret features Jobs was bragging about @ the WWDC last year.

Unless there is some "top-secret enabled" version of Leopard which has never been seeded to the developers which is far more reliable, I can't see this OS being released next month.

iLife '07 and iWork '07 I can see happening.
It wouldn't surprise me to see some "media event" where the launch of iLife and iWork '07 are celebrated, where a new dev build of the "top-secret enabled" Leopard is demoed, where the real release date will be called.

It is possible that the secret features won't be beta tested at all. They could be relatively self-contained applications that don't need a broad testing audience.

Apple releases a lot of software without any testing, most notably every version of every application in iLife and iWork, not to mention smaller apps like AirPort stuff, QuickTime, and so on.

I disagree with Egomaniac.

Comparing the ADC seeds of 10.5 to those of 10.4 and 10.3, Apple has definitely put a lid on some features and functionality in the builds released into the wilds of the ADC community. I'll agree that what been released to us in the ADC isn't ready for prime-time, but I don't think that we're privy to the full-blown builds, anymore.

If that's the case, Apple isn't to blame -- it's the morons who signed an NDA and then nonetheless shared the development seeds on every p2p network they could think of.

Personally, I can't wait for the GM to hit the ADC site -- I'd very much like to run iCal sharing and the group wiki on my production server, but there's no way I'm trusting it to developer builds.

(And I'd like to upgrade to a rev2 MacPro.)

There are "super secret" features of Leopard that have not been seeded to Developers because they don't need testing.I have a very good idea what they are but can't "speculate" due to the NDA.
I've been saying April for a long time.And as soon as Devs get a copy with the "secret" stuff in the seed it will be all over the internet.This is a major reason for not releasing the internal seed to Developers.I've seen it happen before and will probably happen again.
If what is coming in Leopard is what I think we will be blown away and Vista will sink.

SiliconAddict

Feb 9, 2007, 05:26 PM

Won't go near it even with a 10 meter cattle prod. If it launches in March I may buy it in July once the bugs are shaken out of it.

mark88

Feb 9, 2007, 05:26 PM

Doesn't Think Secret have a pretty bad track record of late? a couple weeks ago they told us we were getting new displays instead of iPod shuffles. :confused:

I'm not buying a new Mac until either:

A) Leopard comes with it

or

B) CreateSuite 3 & Studio 9 apps are available in Universal Binaries

SiliconAddict

Feb 9, 2007, 05:28 PM

If what is coming in Leopard is what I think we will be blown away and Vista will sink.

Santa? Is that you?

Mommy! Santa is on the net disguised as Peace!

sexyfoolxx

Feb 9, 2007, 05:31 PM

There are "super secret" features of Leopard that have not been seeded to Developers because they don't need testing.I have a very good idea what they are but can't "speculate" due to the NDA.
I've been saying April for a long time.And as soon as Devs get a copy with the "secret" stuff in the seed it will be all over the internet.This is a major reason for not releasing the internal seed to Developers.I've seen it happen before and will probably happen again.
If what is coming in Leopard is what I think we will be blown away and Vista will sink.

i agree...as of now leopard is very similar to vista..besides the UI of time machine, vista has shadow copy which will prove to be the same thing (maybe not as easy, or glory jas apple likes to make things though) apple is holding out on ilife and iwork because they WILL rely on leopard...personally i think the dev releases are just a joke to make us think there's been progress made (when really every release has basically been the same) also didn't steve mention something about leopard being the "all inclusive" os, which leads me to think that ilife will come with leopard

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 05:34 PM

i agree...as of now leopard is very similar to vista..besides the UI of time machine, vista has shadow copy which will prove to be the same thing (maybe not as easy, or glory jas apple likes to make things though) apple is holding out on ilife and iwork because they WILL rely on leopard...personally i think the dev releases are just a joke to make us think there's been progress made (when really every release has basically been the same) also didn't steve mention something about leopard being the "all inclusive" os, which leads me to think that ilife will come with leopard

dev copies are put out to get devs used to the new OS and start developing for the OS. Its not just a joke, but there not gunna give them everything, just enough to get them started and help find some of the more common flaws.

wtmcgee

Feb 9, 2007, 05:36 PM

sexyfoolxx

Feb 9, 2007, 05:47 PM

dev copies are put out to get devs used to the new OS and start developing for the OS. Its not just a joke, but there not gunna give them everything, just enough to get them started and help find some of the more common flaws.

the only things that have changed are 64bit, core animation, and independent resolution (which hasn't been working from day 1)...or am i way off?

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 05:53 PM

the only things that have changed are 64bit, core animation, and independent resolution (which hasn't been working from day 1)...or am i way off?

thats all important stuff in programming. But also devs find a lot of the bugs

Butthead

Feb 9, 2007, 05:55 PM

Until the Golden Master rumors hit, I'm not putting any stock in what TS reports. I see too many of these, xxx product is coming along faster than thought, doesn't really mean much until something more concrete is stated.

I just hope 10.5 will still be supported on the current G3 platforms (so CPU upgraded Mac's can still run it at decent speeds) that can run Tiger now. I'm sure you'll be able to use Xpostfacto to unofficially get 10.5 on those unsupported G3's however.

EagerDragon

Feb 9, 2007, 06:00 PM

die!

vista is a piece of crap that was stolen from apple...I'm a switcher and I'm never going back to windows

Welcome home son.

blenng

Feb 9, 2007, 06:00 PM

I visited the local Apple store on Tuesday this week, and the sales guy told me that he was informed that leopard would be released in March...

I dunno if we can trust him, though :D

Music-Man

Feb 9, 2007, 06:01 PM

I have a very good idea what they are but can't "speculate" due to the NDA.

The NDA says you can't speculate? That seems odd.
Surely you can discuss "unreleased" features. This is MacRumors. The whole site is speculation.

iTiki

Feb 9, 2007, 06:01 PM

Any truth to the rumor that one of the new "secret" Leopard features is iSex '07 ? A little virtual lov'n would push people to upgrade. I can't wait see the new Apple vs PC ads on that one.:D

Tiki

Peace

Feb 9, 2007, 06:03 PM

The NDA says you can't speculate? That seems odd.
Surely you can discuss "unreleased" features. This is MacRumors. The whole site is speculation.

I realize that but my speculation would have to include things covered by the NDA.

The Scotsman

Feb 9, 2007, 06:05 PM

I am not a regular visitor of think secret. I visited tonight and had a good poke about and one thing I did find is that comments posted from think secret regulars dont think TH is very credible. I also read a lot of their past post/news/rumours and a lot of them a very wrong.

I hope this rumour to be true but I also know that apple will not be rushed into this and the rumours to date do not seem to lead up to a March Release. We still have not seen 10.4.9.

lord patton

Feb 9, 2007, 06:06 PM

There are "super secret" features of Leopard that have not been seeded to Developers because they don't need testing.I have a very good idea what they are but can't "speculate" due to the NDA.
I've been saying April for a long time.And as soon as Devs get a copy with the "secret" stuff in the seed it will be all over the internet.This is a major reason for not releasing the internal seed to Developers.I've seen it happen before and will probably happen again.
If what is coming in Leopard is what I think we will be blown away and Vista will sink.

Please elaborate. Please, please elaborate!

If it's true that

1) There are top secret features AND
2) 10.5 is just a month or two away from release

Then it follows that the secret features won't need developer testing, and are more of an application than a OS feature. And what application would that be?

I don't know, but I daydream about it being a MS-killer. Windows-virtualization built in?

EagerDragon

Feb 9, 2007, 06:06 PM

No they have not. However one of the posters in the forums has, she was spot on about the iPhone (in detail) weeks before it was announced. She also said the release date for OSX, what TS is now reporting. I think TS may have gotten this right because of the poster in the forums that obviously has a great source. (I looked for the post but it appears to be gone now... sorry)

All the rumors seems to be coming together for the same time period, there maybe a diff of 2 weeks but they all around the same time.

I like the current UI, I hope the changes to the UI windows, and buttons are not too radicall.

Rocketman

Feb 9, 2007, 06:14 PM

as you said, has a non-working implementation. The final release will not have it at all.

Okay. Why do you claom ZFS is so difficult to implement even though they have properly licensed it?

Rocketman

EagerDragon

Feb 9, 2007, 06:16 PM

For those talking about having to wait for releases before buying, can I introduce you to the Time Value of Money (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Value_of_Money)?

If you need a computer now and don't buy it, how much value are you losing over the period of time where you don't have that computer? Is that time worth more than $130 to you? If so, then... stop waiting!

Just a suggestion. :D

There is also the part about having to wait another 2 to 3 years to get the features you missed bacause you did not wait for SataRosa.

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 06:16 PM

I dont really understand ZFS, does someone wnt to explain it :confused: :confused: :confused:

Rocketman

Feb 9, 2007, 06:17 PM

If what is coming in Leopard is what I think we will be blown away and Vista will sink.

God bless you Peace.

They still have to "close the deal". OS/2 was superior and died.

Rockeman

MonkeyHugger

Feb 9, 2007, 06:18 PM

Rocketman

Feb 9, 2007, 06:18 PM

Won't go near it even with a 10 meter cattle prod. If it launches in March I may buy it in July once the bugs are shaken out of it.

Agreed. Adopt 10.5.1

Rocketman

Nermal

Feb 9, 2007, 06:20 PM

I couldn't be less excited about Leopard at this point. What about the "top secret features"? I don't see any compelling reason to upgrade for $130 at this point.

I only want two things :)

- HD DVD playback support
- Bring back the ability to customise number formats

As for March, I doubt it. Apple's NZ site says mid-2007, and I don't consider March as "mid".

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 06:20 PM

trevorlsciact

Feb 9, 2007, 06:21 PM

just don't forget that Apple first got it's visual UI way back when from Xerox. :)

Yes but Xerox was payed in stock of the then, not publicly traded Apple. And, I believe (but am not positive) their was cross development between apple and Xerox when they were working on Lisa.

Peace

Feb 9, 2007, 06:21 PM

God bless you Peace.

They still have to "close the deal". OS/2 was superior and died.

Rockeman

Brother I've been wrong many times here and certain folks will jump at the opportunity to point it out.

It's just speculation.
We will see I suppose.

MonkeyHugger

Feb 9, 2007, 06:23 PM

if you really cant wait then just dont wait. Its worth it no matter when you switch. At this point it can be a couple months or a lot of months...and why do you want a mac mini?

When I buy, I won't able to afford to upgrade to the new ilife and leopard and new iwork. So to me, it really does matter when I buy, the fact I have to sell my only computer to switch proves a pain in the bum.

Mac Mini proves the best option for me :)

daveL

Feb 9, 2007, 06:23 PM

Okay. Why do you claom ZFS is so difficult to implement even though they have properly licensed it?

Rocketman

They don't have to license it, per se, since it's open source (see opensolaris.org).

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 06:24 PM

Rocketman

Feb 9, 2007, 06:24 PM

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 06:25 PM

i agree with rocketman, macbook

sexyfoolxx

Feb 9, 2007, 06:25 PM

I dont really understand ZFS, does someone wnt to explain it :confused: :confused: :confused:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zfs

but as i understand it, all of the development is done already, apple would just have to include it in the disk utility, it's not yet "bootable" yet though...zfs is very exciting though, when it can be implemented as the main bootable file system

winstano

Feb 9, 2007, 06:26 PM

I visited the local Apple store on Tuesday this week, and the sales guy told me that he was informed that leopard would be released in March...

I dunno if we can trust him, though :D

I was informed by the guy in the Birmingham Apple store that there is absolutely no information whatsoever passed on to the Apple store employees until a release date is announced worldwide...

I think someone was pulling your leg

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 06:27 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zfs

but as i understand it, all of the development is done already, apple would just have to include it in the disk utility, it's not yet "bootable" yet though...zfs is very exciting though, when it can be implemented as the main bootable file system

yeah ive read it, and uh yeah i still dont undersand it :o

can anyone explain it in lehmens terms...

The Scotsman

Feb 9, 2007, 06:31 PM

TBH this is starting to annoy me and it's getting ridiclous.

All I wanna do is switch from windows to a mac mini. It's proving so much hassle. I just wanna buy at the right time but at the moment it seems to be proving so much hassle. Of course I'll still switch, and I know apple is always secret and whatever, but sometimes I wish they'd just let on...

I am with you monkey hugger. I am just back from a year travelling. Have taken over 400 photos and using a mac from the ages that cant cope. I told myself I would buy a new mac the second i came home to make dvd slide shows. Picture books and write my journal. I too would not buy at the moment and also not sure whether to buy a mac when leapord comes out as a new designed mac might just be round the corner. I will never go to windows but the whole wait is becoming a headache. God I need an asprin now!!

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 06:34 PM

I was informed by the guy in the Birmingham Apple store that there is absolutely no information whatsoever passed on to the Apple store employees until a release date is announced worldwide...

I think someone was pulling your leg

I am with you monkey hugger. I am just back from a year travelling. Have taken over 400 photos and using a mac from the ages that cant cope. I told myself I would buy a new mac the second i came home to make dvd slide shows. Picture books and write my journal. I too would not buy at the moment and also not sure whether to buy a mac when leapord comes out as a new designed mac might just be round the corner. I will never go to windows but the whole wait is becoming a headache. God I need an asprin now!!

its tough i know, my friend is in the same prediciment he has some crappy 10 year old computer that has a lag for dragging the mouse, and ive used that comp a lot. Its hard just take deep breaths, or freeze yourself :D

blenng

Feb 9, 2007, 06:34 PM

uNext

Feb 9, 2007, 06:35 PM

I only want two things :)

- HD DVD playback support
- Bring back the ability to customise number formats

As for March, I doubt it. Apple's NZ site says mid-2007, and I don't consider March as "mid".

Hd-Dvd? I think before that happens you will see Blu-ray support. I believe apple is in the Blu-ray board of directors?

That will be so awesome but apple is not a company to make new gadgets affordable to the general public so i doubt we will be seeing any High Def support on a mac until the battle between the formats is won.

Sony is known to lower the prices to make new technology widespread
look at the ps2 when it came out it was the most affordable dvd player then now the ps3 is the same way with the blu-ray drive.

coffey7

Feb 9, 2007, 06:35 PM

I would pay $130 just for Time Machine.

And I'd give one or two body parts for the new Mail and iCal.

I'd also like to have an OS that was built for an Intel processor (Tiger was developed for PPC, then ported to Intel).

P.S. And compare the $130 for all the new cool stuff in Leopard vs. the $200-400 for the lame-excuse-for-an-upgrade called Vista.

What! I bought Vista for $149. I just upgraded 1 of my xp computers and did a complete clean install. Why pay the higher price when you don't have to. I could have even Bought the home premium for $130 on tthe net. Even if somebody paid $400 spread that out over 4 or 5 years and its not much. If you can't afford that you should not even have a computer hobby.

jettredmont

Feb 9, 2007, 06:35 PM

What is the grace period for buying a new Mac and getting Leopard and iLife? Is it 30 days? Is there even a grace period?

I JUST bought my new 24" today. No matter what, I couldn't wait. If I end up having to pay for Leopard, so be it. I needed the computer.

Generally, the only time you'll get a free upgrade is when you buy after the release date has been announced.

I can't think of any case where Apple has gratuitously assigned a post-dated upgrade eligibility.

That having been said, you have I believe 14 days to return any hardware to Apple or to get a price match on new hardware pricing.

As was posted before: waiting for Leopard to buy a machine is putting the cart before the horse. There's always something new to wait for, both in hardware and software. The only rational approach is to buy it when you need it, putting purchases off or pulling them forward by no more than a week or two when a release date is known. I think it is pretty much 100% agreed upon that Leopard won't be out in one or even two weeks. End of March is a very aggressive target date, given what we know. Thus, I'd buy today if I were in the market for a new machine.

The Scotsman

Feb 9, 2007, 06:38 PM

yeah ive read it, and uh yeah i still dont undersand it :o

can anyone explain it in lehmens terms...

I have just read it also and my head hurts but my understanding is it is a 128bit filing system instead of 64bit which means that you will never exhaust it it 1000000 years or more. but that is purely my understanding that it is so massive you actually do not need to worry about it and I am inclined not to think about it anymore LOL.

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 06:39 PM

I have just read it also and my head hurts but my understanding is it is a 128bit filing system instead of 64bit which means that you will never exhaust it it 1000000 years or more. but that is purely my understanding that it is so massive you actually do not need to worry about it and I am inclined not to think about it anymore LOL.

so but then wheres it stored?

OS X Factor

Feb 9, 2007, 06:39 PM

I would love for a March Leopard release, but I seriously doubt it. Why? Well, here's a few reasons:

1st: It's almost the middle of February, and we've heard nothing regarding a release date. Leopard contains a TON of under the hood modifications to the OS, and as a result, it breaks a bunch of apps. Giving third party developers a month to fix their app to work with a new OS isn't cool. Apple traditionally gives a little more notice than that. Factor in the rumor that a whole new UI will be part of Leopard, and there is almost no way Apple would spring a release that monumental without ample lead time for the 3rd party developers.

2nd: The builds of Leopard have yet to hit Release Candidate status, let alone Final Candidate status. Once the OS hits RC, it's usually between 4-6 weeks before the final release.

3rd: With WWDC in early June, I'm betting Apple will use it as a launching pad for Leopard and other new Mac products. Apple will want to make the Leopard launch the event of the year, and what better way than to couple it with WWDC. Plus, technically, early June is still spring.

The Scotsman

Feb 9, 2007, 06:45 PM

As was posted before: waiting for Leopard to buy a machine is putting the cart before the horse. There's always something new to wait for, both in hardware and software. The only rational approach is to buy it when you need it, putting purchases off or pulling them forward by no more than a week or two when a release date is known. I think it is pretty much 100% agreed upon that Leopard won't be out in one or even two weeks. End of March is a very aggressive target date, given what we know. Thus, I'd buy today if I were in the market for a new machine.

I would agree with you in the software sense and even in the hardware sense if in a windows/pc environment but that is the beauty of apple hardware it is upgraded not as often as a windows based system and its insides. Apple tend to build a completely new machine every couple of years and have a few speed bumps inbetween. If I was predicting just a speed bump I would no question buy now and upgrade to leapord at the time but I do sense (With my apple senses) a new iMac completely and even if that was 6 months away I would be incredibly PI+SED Off with myself for not waiting. I am however thinking of buying a mac mini just to get started on my projects and then buy new mac when it comes then I will pimp out my mac to be one hell of an entertainment hub.

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 06:47 PM

what do the mac minis come with these days?

thunderclap

Feb 9, 2007, 06:49 PM

That said, I do agree with the post that said better that Apple takes its time and avoids the glaring bugs that have marked 10.3.0 and 10.4.0. If they can get a fairly bug-free version out in March then GREAT, but I really hope they don't rush it to market.

I never had any issues with the initial release of 10.4.

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 06:50 PM

I never had any issues with the initial release of 10.4.

same with me...but still i agree that they should take their time

Eidorian

Feb 9, 2007, 06:51 PM

what do the mac minis come with these days?OS X 10.4.7

I never had any issues with the initial release of 10.4.I can say the same. 10.4.3 was a little more unstable then stock 10.4 for me. It has been fine since but I remember 10.4 booting up like lightning.

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 06:53 PM

OS X 10.4.7

no i mean how much RAM and all that...and uhm why not 10.4.8?

The Scotsman

Feb 9, 2007, 06:54 PM

thunderclap

Feb 9, 2007, 06:54 PM

I like the current UI, I hope the changes to the UI windows, and buttons are not too radicall.

I may be yelled and screamed at but I for one like the new design of Vista even if elements are taken from OS X. I hope the new UI will outdo Vista.

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 07:00 PM

I may be yelled and screamed at but I for one like the new design of Vista even if elements are taken from OS X. I hope the new UI will outdo Vista.

Hey it better be nice, they spent 5 years on it. Too bad it doesnt go much beyond the UI.

GregA

Feb 9, 2007, 07:01 PM

Won't go near it even with a 10 meter cattle prod. If it launches in March I may buy it in July once the bugs are shaken out of it.Now now... waiting 3 months is better than jumping in without looking. But the best bet, as always, is to watch the reports of adopters of any version, look at your own setup, and decide when it's sensible to step across. :-)

All I wanna do is switch from windows to a mac mini. It's proving so much hassle. I just wanna buy at the right time but at the moment it seems to be proving so much hassle.If your money is short, and your Windows machine is still running, wait till June. Get 10.5 and iLife with your MacMini, which (hopefully) will be upgraded too (C2D/64bit, & perhaps learning something from AppleTV)

I wonder if 10.4.9 is going to introduce a new framework back ported from Leopard? If iLife and iWork 07 both depend on this framework, then this may explain the delay.
Agreed. I do hope they allow older versions access to newer apps in some way. Then again, I'd like to see 10.4 released for free when 10.5 is released. Simplify things for developers.

uNext

Feb 9, 2007, 07:02 PM

What! I bought Vista for $149. I just upgraded 1 of my xp computers and did a complete clean install. Why pay the higher price when you don't have to. I could have even Bought the home premium for $130 on tthe net. Even if somebody paid $400 spread that out over 4 or 5 years and its not much. If you can't afford that you should not even have a computer hobby.

Excellent point.

I have a garment business and i sell t-shirts bulk orders only
I sell the shirts for like 2.85 with an order of 34 or more.

Everyday i get a phone call asking if i can lower it more because its too expensive. Keep in mind that they can sell this shirts for like 19-29 bucks in retail stores 9thats how much they sell retail)
but they still feel the need to try and bargain. My whole point is no matter at what price you sell your product there will always be a particular group that will always find an excuse to not pay what your asking for.

Vista spread out to 4-5 years is nothing....

Like you said-if you think is too expensive then you should not be in the computer hobby at all.

Props

coffey7

Feb 9, 2007, 07:03 PM

Maxwell Smart

Feb 9, 2007, 07:04 PM

Well, whenever leopard comes out, I know I'm looking forward to getting my copy. Having it by the end of March would be so awesome.

Eidorian

Feb 9, 2007, 07:05 PM

no i mean how much RAM and all that...and uhm why not 10.4.8?1. http://www.apple.com/macmini/specs.html
2. 10.4.7 was the version that was out when the Mac mini had a revision. It won't change until an update happens again.

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 07:06 PM

If you install the 64 bit version in say a macbook core 2 duo it will take the rest of the year to get all the programs updated to 64 bit. Even with Vista I installed the 32 bit because its to early for 64. Since I only have a macbook core duo I will go out and buy the new os BUT install the 32 bit version. Its way too early for 64 bit.

whats the difference? i still dont fully understand that yet either. :confused: :confused: :confused:

GregA

Feb 9, 2007, 07:10 PM

I dont really understand ZFS, does someone wnt to explain it :confused: :confused: :confused:
Someone correct me if I'm wrong:
New file system.
*If you're running out of space, it allows you to add a new disk and have that space added to your existing disk (instead of appearing as 2 separate disks)
*Holds far more files due to 128bit.
*Automatically keeps older copies of your data so you can go back to what you were seeing yesterday (similar to time machine, but at the filesystem level rather than relying on time machine app)
*Changes the size of the file blocks so that tiny files take up a tiny block (instead of a small block)
*Allows you to setup disks redundantly so if one fails your data is safe (and ZFS's "raid" works faster and cheaper than normal sets of raid disks)
*Allows you to combine the disks from 2 different computers into one virtual disk.

It doesn't work as a boot volume - you need to boot from a file system that is a bit less complex, though this functionality is being worked on, and maybe Apple with EFI can achieve something.

sexyfoolxx

Feb 9, 2007, 07:12 PM

whats the difference? i still dont fully understand that yet either. :confused: :confused: :confused:

64 bit is to allow apps to take advantage of 4gigs of ram or more...true 64 bit-ness is a long time from now, especially considering that only one mac can have more than 4 gigs of ram, and this is basically true for the pc world too

The Scotsman

Feb 9, 2007, 07:14 PM

If you install the 64 bit version in say a macbook core 2 duo it will take the rest of the year to get all the programs updated to 64 bit. Even with Vista I installed the 32 bit because its to early for 64. Since I only have a macbook core duo I will go out and buy the new os BUT install the 32 bit version. Its way too early for 64 bit.

Hey I understand what you are saying with vista but leapord will run 32 and 64 bit apps side by side so this will not be an issue with leapord.

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 07:20 PM

64 bit is to allow apps to take advantage of 4gigs of ram or more...true 64 bit-ness is a long time from now, especially considering that only one mac can have more than 4 gigs of ram, and this is basically true for the pc world too

Oh thats amazing, so whats it like if its not "true 64 bit" and then wouldnt that maybe mean that the new imacs will be able to hold 4 gigs RAM

BilltheCat

Feb 9, 2007, 07:23 PM

Vista is not a piece of crap i personally feel like vista is a good operating system.

But theres something about windows that i ant get rid of..
i like mac os x but i just cant shake windows.

Unlike the millions of people i feel like windows operating systems are good i have nevere had any issues with nothing on a xp machine. Maybe i am lucky or the computer gods watch over me.

Zblax was right, you should die. If you dont know by now just how evil MS is and how little control you will have of a Vista pc, then no feeling sorry for you, just lay down please and die before you infecct others.

sexyfoolxx

Feb 9, 2007, 07:26 PM

Oh thats amazing, so whats it like if its not "true 64 bit" and then wouldnt that maybe mean that the new imacs will be able to hold 4 gigs RAM

"true 64 bit" is one step closer due to leopard being completely compatible with 64bit, to allow apps to take advantage of it, but that means all the apps would need to be 64bit as well...in the real world, we haven't come close to needing one or two apps to be able to take advantage of this much ram...but yes for true 64 bit, all computers would need to handle at least 4gigs of ram

shawnce

Feb 9, 2007, 07:31 PM

winstano

Feb 9, 2007, 07:33 PM

I think at the end of the day, some people are getting WAY ahead of themselves as to what Leopard really is all about...

It's an addition to OSX. It's not a completely new OS...

It'll include some new features, yes... But when it really comes down to it, it's still OSX... Was there really this much hoo-hah when Tiger came out? When you think about it, the only major thing that was added there was spotlight (I'm no doubt bound to be proved wrong, but the only real 'standard' end-user difference is spotlight)...

I think people are getting ahead of themselves when they say "But Leopard should be an intel based OS with legacy support to PPC stuff" etc... Leopard is a version of OSX... It's an add-on to the OSX version we all know and love that is Tiger... If there were changes as radical as some of those being suggested here, then surely it would be OSXI?

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 07:36 PM

shawnce

Feb 9, 2007, 07:37 PM

Oh thats amazing, so whats it like if its not "true 64 bit" and then wouldnt that maybe mean that the new imacs will be able to hold 4 gigs RAM

Don't confuse 64b virtual addressing (which is what 10.5 is allowing via non-deprecated frameworks/libraries) with what the hardware is capable of addressing. One doesn't require the other.

winstano

Feb 9, 2007, 07:38 PM

But its big enough that Apple is making us pay for it, new features and new configuration to it all

As was Tiger... And before that Panther... And Jaguar and Puma...

They've all added on to the previous version... Why should Leopard be any different?

shawnce

Feb 9, 2007, 07:42 PM

the only major thing that was added there was spotlight Core Data, Core Image, Core Video, Dashboard, Automator, QTKit, PDFKit, Voiceover and expanded accessibility APIs, ACLs, expanded metadata support for files in HFS+, Unix command lines tools updated to support HFS+ metadata, UTIs, KPIs, kevent, 64 bit virtual addressing for POSIX command line tools, and many more items

flyinmac

Feb 9, 2007, 07:42 PM

There better be HUGE updates to the red-headed-step-child dotMac. If they don't update that suite of services soon I'm bailing and never looking back.

I bailed as soon as they started charging for it.

What disappointment. It was supposed to be a feature of OS 10.0 that didn't cost anything additional. Then, one day I get an e-mail saying it won't be free starting the following month. What happened to a feature of OS X.

It's like they removed part of the OS X package that I purchased. It was right on the box as a standard feature. Then, one day "Oh, we're tired of letting you use that feature that we sold you, it's going to cost $99 now".

Talk about taking features away after the sale.

I could see not including it for free with newer OS X revisions. But, I was still using the version that came with that as a standard feature. Taking it away was like taking away part of OS X's standard feature set.

Well, with that move, I sent a change of address notification to all my contacts, and haven't looked back since. I have never found any of the features worth paying extra for.

.Mac to me is basically just an overpriced version of Hotmail, or Gmail, or any other free service.

My having a .Mac e-mail address did more for Apple in terms of advertising the Mac than it ever did for me. I already had free e-mail available from my ISP, and could get any number of them for free from anyone else.

Otherwise, it's only useful feature might be synchronization or iDisk. But, like many, I have little desire to place my files on a remote server (where I have to wait to download them as I need them). And, synchronizing is not really that hard to do without .Mac. I keep 3 systems synced without paying a dime for any utility.

So, really, what they need more than an update is a price reduction. $99 is just ridiculous.

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 07:44 PM

As was Tiger... And before that Panther... And Jaguar and Puma...

They've all added on to the previous version... Why should Leopard be any different?

Well they were all fairly big upgrades, the biggest difference is then no one knew or cared about apple, not that they have picked up more fans, more people are interested in Leopard, and thats besides the fact that Apple is doing a good job hyping it up

xUKHCx

Feb 9, 2007, 07:45 PM

Leopard will be the first major release (read 10.0, 10.1, 10.2 etc.) of OS X for intel. Apple will have learnt a lot of lessons from 10.4.4 - 10.4.xx for intel and make 10.5 a lot more optimised and stable. I think buy 10.5.6 we will have a system that is as stable as 10.4.5 is on the PPC platform. (10.4.5 was my last real experience with 10.4.5 and i am currently on 10.4.8 on Intel and it is definitely not as stable)

SMM

Feb 9, 2007, 07:48 PM

I love vista and i cant wait to have them both running on my macbook pro.

Your allegiance to Microsoft and Dell is well documented by your posts.

winstano

Feb 9, 2007, 07:48 PM

Core Data, Core Image, Core Video, Dashboard, Automator, QTKit, PDFKit, ACLs, Voiceover and expanded accessibility APIs, expanded metadata support for files in HFS+, Unix command lines tools updated to support HFS+ metadata, UTIs, KPIs, kevent, 64 bit virtual addressing for POSIX command line tools, and many more items

If you noticed my original post, I said "End User" things...

I'm not a developer, I don't even know what core image/video does!

OK, I missed out dashboard... But on the surface, the difference between Panther and Tiger was NOT that great... All I'm saying is that Leopard will just be another add on to Tiger...

And yes, Apple have a bigger fanbase watching the Leopard release, but it is STILL OSX! It's NOT a new operating system.. It'll be built around the same principles as the original OSX, with a few more features, just like every other version...

The new UI is something I personally would love to see, but I don't think it's going to be completely new... I think they'll just add a "themes" section to the appearance part of System Prefs...

shawnce

Feb 9, 2007, 07:49 PM

but that means all the apps would need to be 64bit as well Applications can choose to be either 32b or 64b under Leopard, it isn't all or nothing... not that I understand your statement. In fact just like we can have a single double clickable application with Intel and PowerPC binaries we can have a single application that has 32b and 64b binaries in it as well (32b & 64bg PowerPC and 32b & 64b Intel).

but yes for true 64 bit, all computers would need to handle at least 4gigs of ram Not true.

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 07:51 PM

If you noticed my original post, I said "End User" things...

I'm not a developer, I don't even know what core image/video does!

OK, I missed out dashboard... But on the surface, the difference between Panther and Tiger was NOT that great... All I'm saying is that Leopard will just be another add on to Tiger...

And yes, Apple have a bigger fanbase watching the Leopard release, but it is STILL OSX! It's NOT a new operating system.. It'll be built around the same principles as the original OSX, with a few more features, just like every other version...

The new UI is something I personally would love to see, but I don't think it's going to be completely new... I think they'll just add a "themes" section to the appearance part of System Prefs...

Just because you "dont care" about anything besides the end user things, doesnt mean it isnt important, and you will care whether you realize it or not becuase they are going to make your computer work a lot nicer and look a lot nicer. So technically its not a new OS, its still OSX, but its a big step in making your computer a lot bettter. Theres a lot of things you dont know anything about on your computer right now but im willing to bet that if some of it was missing youd be able to tell.

shawnce

Feb 9, 2007, 07:55 PM

If you noticed my original post, I said "End User" things...

I'm not a developer, I don't even know what core image/video does! It is how all of those "End User" applications do some of the magic they do... for example iPhoto, Aperture, and many 3rd party applications.

In other words end users may not know what Core Image is but they greatly benefit from it because the applications they use can do things that they couldn't before (as in the developer couldn't take the time to implement it themselves, etc.).

andyh2

Feb 9, 2007, 07:55 PM

But remember, OSX was built off the NeXT operting system, and unix. Two things apple didn't create personally. But boy have they innovated.

winstano

Feb 9, 2007, 07:56 PM

Just because you "dont care" about anything besides the end user things, doesnt mean it isnt important, and you will care whether you realize it or not becuase they are going to make your computer work a lot nicer and look a lot nicer. So technically its not a new OS, its still OSX, but its a big step in making your computer a lot bettter.

*sigh*

All I'm trying to say is that a LOT of the features that people are throwing about *ARE* the end user kind of ones, and chances are they won't make it into the final release...

I'm well aware that the advancements in the background are there and improving OSX, but on the surface, why should Leopard be any different than anything else? It'll surely just be a slightly optimized version of OSX with a few flashy features that the user will benefit from?

It just pisses me off, because there's people getting way too ahead of themselves in these forums, and when the feature they dreamt up and hyped up on here doesn't make it into Leopard, they'll get all pissy about it...

The only major changes will come with OSXI (or whatever apple calls it). I just think there's going to be a LOT of disappointed people on this forum when Leopard is unleashed and the features they were expecting don't show...

sexyfoolxx

Feb 9, 2007, 07:56 PM

Applications can choose to be either 32b or 64b under Leopard, it isn't all or nothing... not that I understand your statement. In fact just like we can have a single double clickable application with Intel and PowerPC binaries we can have a single application that has 32b and 64b binaries in it as well (32b & 64bg PowerPC and 32b & 64b Intel).

Not true.

if you noticed i said "true 64bit" which means everything running as 64bit, not saying that in leopard you have to choose one or the other...and if it's "not true" then why don't you explain yourself, so others will understand better, as well as myself

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 07:57 PM

But remember, OSX was built off the NeXT operting system, and unix. Two things apple didn't create personally. But boy have they innovated.

Apple is amazing at innovating

shawnce

Feb 9, 2007, 07:58 PM

if you noticed i said "true 64bit" which means everything running as 64bit, not saying that in leopard you have to choose one or the other...and if it's "not true" then why don't you explain yourself, so others will understand better, as well as myself

Define "true 64bit" so I can :)

sexyfoolxx

Feb 9, 2007, 07:59 PM

Define "true 64bit" so I can :)

true 64bit meaning everything is running as 64bit...nothing as 32bit

macfan881

Feb 9, 2007, 08:00 PM

i doubt to see leopard in march ilife and i work yes i think we will see in march cause what will be the focus part for wwdc 2 hrs on a quad or 8 core mac and more iphone stuff? doubt it so my guess is ilife 07 and i work 07 maybe some more detail if any in march but with the invites for the wwdc were any indecation i think we wont see leopard till wwdc

SMM

Feb 9, 2007, 08:00 PM

If you noticed my original post, I said "End User" things...

I'm not a developer, I don't even know what core image/video does!

OK, I missed out dashboard... But on the surface, the difference between Panther and Tiger was NOT that great... All I'm saying is that Leopard will just be another add on to Tiger...

And yes, Apple have a bigger fanbase watching the Leopard release, but it is STILL OSX! It's NOT a new operating system.. It'll be built around the same principles as the original OSX, with a few more features, just like every other version...

The new UI is something I personally would love to see, but I don't think it's going to be completely new... I think they'll just add a "themes" section to the appearance part of System Prefs...

When you already have the world's finest desktop operating system, you are not forced to revolutionize it. You keep adding to it, and enhancing it. The core enhancements you make light of are far more important than you are able to seemingly grasp. Yet, you have no issues with promoting the opinion, "..but it is STILL OSX! It's NOT a new operating system..". The irony is you disclaim sufficient to judge what may be very significant, but are expert enough to make that statement.

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 08:00 PM

*sigh*

All I'm trying to say is that a LOT of the features that people are throwing about *ARE* the end user kind of ones, and chances are they won't make it into the final release...

I'm well aware that the advancements in the background are there and improving OSX, but on the surface, why should Leopard be any different than anything else? It'll surely just be a slightly optimized version of OSX with a few flashy features that the user will benefit from?

It just pisses me off, because there's people getting way too ahead of themselves in these forums, and when the feature they dreamt up and hyped up on here doesn't make it into Leopard, they'll get all pissy about it...

The only major changes will come with OSXI (or whatever apple calls it). I just think there's going to be a LOT of disappointed people on this forum when Leopard is unleashed and the features they were expecting don't show...

no one is really expecting anything, they are just adding there wishes. Apple has told us very little about leopard so what do you expect people to do? and yes those end user ones that people are throwing out are made possible by programs like Core animation and all that stuff you dont care about.

Nermal

Feb 9, 2007, 08:05 PM

Hd-Dvd? I think before that happens you will see Blu-ray support. I believe apple is in the Blu-ray board of directors?

They're also a member of the DVD Forum (the HD DVD people).

Sony is known to lower the prices to make new technology widespread
look at the ps2 when it came out it was the most affordable dvd player then now the ps3 is the same way with the blu-ray drive.

I don't know about other countries, but here in NZ it's *much* cheaper to get an HD DVD-equipped 360 than a PS3. In my case I have a USB HD DVD drive rearing to go, and just need some software for it.

The current version of DVD Player will play some unencrypted HD DVD content, and there are rumours for full support in Leopard :)

dernhelm

Feb 9, 2007, 08:05 PM

Here's hoping they're right. At least it all sounds reasonable. You would want your software suites shipping with Leopard to use its cool new features.

March would be fantastic. A little over a month away? Wow!

winstano

Feb 9, 2007, 08:06 PM

When you already have the world's finest desktop operating system, you are not forced to revolutionize it. You keep adding to it, and enhancing it. The core enhancements you make light of are far more important than you are able to seemingly grasp. Yet, you have no issues with promoting the opinion, "..but it is STILL OSX! It's NOT a new operating system..". The irony is you disclaim sufficient to judge what may be very significant, but are expert enough to make that statement.

Whoah, that's a little demeaning..

Just because I'm not 'in the know' with regards to writing software etc, doesn't mean you have to talk down to me...

Besides, you appear to be reinforcing exactly what I've said, whilst simultaneously insulting me... Bravo.

All I'm *trying* to say is this.

WHY should Leopard be any different to the previous upgrades to OSX? Why should it be overhauled? If you actually read all of my posts before making such a scathing reply, you'd see that I was, in fact, trying to say that each version of OSX has been optimized by things I "don't care" about (Which is wrong, I do care about them, I just don't know how to use them/will never use them through coding etc, because I simply can't), with a few features that will utilise this...

Once again, I reiterate my point.. The more features that are speculated about in here, the more people will be disappointed.

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 08:09 PM

Whoah, that's a little demeaning..

Just because I'm not 'in the know' with regards to writing software etc, doesn't mean you have to talk down to me...

Besides, you appear to be reinforcing exactly what I've said, whilst simultaneously insulting me... Bravo.

All I'm *trying* to say is this.

WHY should Leopard be any different to the previous upgrades to OSX? Why should it be overhauled? If you actually read all of my posts before making such a scathing reply, you'd see that I was, in fact, trying to say that each version of OSX has been optimized by things I "don't care" about (Which is wrong, I do care about them, I just don't know how to use them/will never use them through coding etc, because I simply can't), with a few features that will utilise this...

Once again, I reiterate my point.. The more features that are speculated about in here, the more people will be disappointed.

he/she wasnt talking down to yuo, just pointing out exactly what your doing for everyone else, dont be so hypocrytical...were just trying to say is you may not know how to use those apps, but they are apps that are needed to run the apps that you want, and sure people are going to be dissapointed, thats life, but people have to speculate, thats life too

shawnce

Feb 9, 2007, 08:11 PM

true 64bit meaning everything is running as 64bit...nothing as 32bit

What does that mean? :) You talking virtual memory, hardware addressing, data paths, etc.?

Anyway attempting to answer why I said "not true".

Applications can use 64b virtual addressing to get access to a HUGE virtual memory space. Having access to such a large memory space allows to them to work with extremely large data sets and in ways that don't require them to implement code to do some type of sliding memory window (attempting to fit their data set into a 32b aperture). It makes programming a lot easier in those situations.

Mac OS X 10.5 will allow graphical applications to use 64b virtual addressing (10.4 limited it to basic POSIX command line tools).

The above concept is independent of how much RAM can be installed in a system or addressed by the hardware.

Additionally on Intel based system having an application compiled for 64b virtual addressing also enables ISA extensions that can improve performance of an application... again a capability independent of how much RAM a system can support.

elppa

Feb 9, 2007, 08:11 PM

There are "super secret" features of Leopard that have not been seeded to Developers because they don't need testing.I have a very good idea what they are but can't "speculate" due to the NDA.
I've been saying April for a long time.And as soon as Devs get a copy with the "secret" stuff in the seed it will be all over the internet.This is a major reason for not releasing the internal seed to Developers.I've seen it happen before and will probably happen again.
If what is coming in Leopard is what I think we will be blown away and Vista will sink.

I'd rather you'd said nothing at all than that.

It's all so intriguing!

To address an earlier issue, I think much of the anticipation is due to the fact that it has been nearly 2 years since Tiger was released, which gives a company with the resources (and productivity*) of Apple Inc a great deal of time to do… well a lot more than they've shown us so far!

* resources don't mean much unless you actually do something with them. Apple seems to be very productive and hence able to bring a string of innovative and exciting products to market quickly.

winstano

Feb 9, 2007, 08:16 PM

he/she wasnt talking down to yuo, just pointing out exactly what your doing for everyone else, dont be so hypocrytical...

I'm not being hypocritical at all... I'm just saying that there will be disappointed people when Leopard is released... All I got was a snidey post about how I was essentially being ignorant... Which (as I've TRIED to say) isn't the case... I'm well aware of the presence of core image/video etc, but I, personally, don't know how to use it... I'm aware it makes the programs I use function more, but what I can't grasp is how people are thinking that Leopard is going to be miles apart from Tiger, because I seriously doubt it will be...

We have computers at uni that run Panther. The only difference to me is that the computers at uni don't have spotlight (I rarely use dashboard). Now, don't get me wrong, I'm aware that my Tiger system at home has a lot of things under the hood that make it technically superior to Jaguar, but it's not dramatically different. It still does the same things (with the notable exception of Spotlight/Dashboard), it looks the same, it feels the same, it is OSX. Same with a friend's computer who's still using Jaguar... It's still OSX. So why should we expect something drastically different for Leopard? Just please answer me that, as it's the point I set out to ask in the first place!

quigleybc

Feb 9, 2007, 08:16 PM

Leopard in June

iLife and iWork 07 in March

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 08:21 PM

I'm not being hypocritical at all... I'm just saying that there will be disappointed people when Leopard is released... All I got was a snidey post about how I was essentially being ignorant... Which (as I've TRIED to say) isn't the case... I'm well aware of the presence of core image/video etc, but I, personally, don't know how to use it... I'm aware it makes the programs I use function more, but what I can't grasp is how people are thinking that Leopard is going to be miles apart from Tiger, because I seriously doubt it will be...

We have computers at uni that run Panther. The only difference to me is that the computers at uni don't have spotlight (I rarely use dashboard). Now, don't get me wrong, I'm aware that my Tiger system at home has a lot of things under the hood that make it technically superior to Jaguar, but it's not dramatically different. It still does the same things (with the notable exception of Spotlight/Dashboard), it looks the same, it feels the same, it is OSX. Same with a friend's computer who's still using Jaguar... It's still OSX. So why should we expect something drastically different for Leopard? Just please answer me that, as it's the point I set out to ask in the first place!

well id think atleast update to leopard from jaguar, even if you odnt want to from tiger. Its not just all about the OS either, its whats compatible, pretty soon jaguar isnt going to be compatible with most of things even tiger has today. Thats third party apps and just regular mac updates. Security and jsut overall what the computer supports. As the new updates come out, not just the internal part or what you can see gets better, but what that computer is capable of doing increases, and OS jaguar will be stuck in the past. If you dont care thats fine, but it does make a difference whether you care or not, whether you accept it or not, whatever it is your still dont understand about updating to the newest OS. Its just better for the computer

Krevnik

Feb 9, 2007, 08:21 PM

true 64bit meaning everything is running as 64bit...nothing as 32bit

"True 64-bit" as you describe it is worthless to the end user, and the developer. Unlike Windows, OS X using universal binaries, and libraries that are now compiled for both 32 and 64 bit... you can compile a binary to run the best it can on any of the 4 supported architectures. Add on top of that the fact that having 32-bit processes and 64-bit processes running at the same time don't interfere with each other... and there is no point on phasing out 32-bit support in the OS anytime in the next 6-7 years.

The Scotsman

Feb 9, 2007, 08:23 PM

I have just watched the wwdc06 keynote speech again just now. I suggest a lot of guys should do the same. Yes a lot of things were not announced and Steve did say there was secret features that they did not want to announce yet. You will find that leapord is true 64bit running along side 32bit by true 64 bit they are not using emulators to enhance a 32bit app. You will also see that apple gave leapord to developers at this conference and let them leave after the week with the know how to develop for leapord.

For those say yes but it is still an update of osX tiger. Yes I suppose it is but if thats what you think I think you are failing to see apples vision of regular updates instead of waiting 5 years for a new OS eg vista.

Leapord is going to be fantastic. Not an Windows killer (but should be) remember windows (wrongly) still holds 90% of OS usage so they are not going to be killed by 1 OS but every day apple is taking bites out of them.

Trust me watch the keynote again and you will be inspired!!!!

BigPrince

Feb 9, 2007, 08:24 PM

im excited. Just wish iLife would come sooner.

Does this mean if you want iLife you need Leopard and if not, how could iLife be tied to leopard.

winstano

Feb 9, 2007, 08:27 PM

well id think atleast update to leopard from jaguar, even if you odnt want to from tiger. Its not just all about the OS either, its whats compatible, pretty soon jaguar isnt going to be compatible with most of things even tiger has today. Thats third party apps and just regular mac updates. Security and jsut overall what the computer supports. As the new updates come out, not just the internal part or what you can see gets better, but what that computer is capable of doing increases, and OS jaguar will be stuck in the past. If you dont care thats fine, but it does make a difference whether you care or not

Oh aye, don't get me wrong, I'm gonna be first in the queue for Leopard, solely for Time Machine... I'm just not hyping it up as much as some people are, and I'm prepared to sit back and let Apple give me what they're prepared to...

whether you accept it or not, whatever it is you still dont understand about updating to the newest OS. Its just better for the computer

?? I don't think you're getting my point...

My point, once again, is this.

Leopard is not a new OS. It is an upgrade to OSX. Some of the changes people are suggesting imply radical changes to the fundamentals of the OS, as opposed to a more standard "upgrade"...

I know that keeping up to date is important and good for the computer etc, like I said, personally I'm gonna be getting Leopard asap... But unlike some, I'm just seeing this as an extension to OSX as opposed to a completely different system.

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 08:28 PM

im excited. Just wish iLife would come sooner.

Does this mean if you want iLife you need Leopard and if not, how could iLife be tied to leopard.

not necessarily, but it does mean that ilife prolly wont come out till leopard since its closely related with things leopard can do. ilife should be able to run in tiger too tho

chmorley

Feb 9, 2007, 08:28 PM

just don't forget that Apple first got it's visual UI way back when from Xerox. :)

Nope. A popular myth, but a myth, nonetheless. Gates tries to make it sound this way because it benefits him, but it's just not so.

Here's a good reference:

http://www.mackido.com/Interface/ui_history.html

Tell all your friends. This is one of those "say it enough and it might as well be true" pieces of the mythology I'd just as soon see go away.

Chris

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 08:30 PM

Oh aye, don't get me wrong, I'm gonna be first in the queue for Leopard, solely for Time Machine... I'm just not hyping it up as much as some people are, and I'm prepared to sit back and let Apple give me what they're prepared to...

?? I don't think you're getting my point...

My point, once again, is this.

Leopard is not a new OS. It is an upgrade to OSX. Some of the changes people are suggesting imply radical changes to the fundamentals of the OS, as opposed to a more standard "upgrade"...

I know that keeping up to date is important and good for the computer etc, like I said, personally I'm gonna be getting Leopard asap... But unlike some, I'm just seeing this as an extension to OSX as opposed to a completely different system.

12 of one a dozen of the other

its the same thing, people just choose to see it differently, that doesnt mean they see it as anything bigger then you do, but that maybe they recognize exactly how big it is, and exactly what all the technical stuff means.

shawnce

Feb 9, 2007, 08:32 PM

I should note that those with ADC accounts (free "online" accounts included) can visit the following page http://developer.apple.com/adconitunes/ and get access to Session 000 (Mac OS X State of the Union) and Session 500 (IT State of the Union) from WWDC 06.

Apple opened those particular session up to all developer as few days ago ... they contain more details then you saw in Steve's keynote (the session is targeted at developers).

Of course those with ADC accounts that have seed keys can get access to all recorded sessions from WWDC 06 via that link.

The videos are still under the normal ADC account preview software NDA... so watch but don't tell :)

All information presented or provided to you by Apple through ADC on iTunes is considered Confidential Information and is subject to the terms and conditions of your ADC Membership Agreement with Apple.

winstano

Feb 9, 2007, 08:35 PM

its the same thing, people just choose to see it differently, that doesnt mean they see it as anything bigger then you do, but that maybe they recognize exactly how big it is, and exactly what all the technical stuff means.

Why the sarky comments?!

For the last time. I REALISE what the technical stuff means for programs that choose to utilise it. I REALISE that Leopard is going to be huge, but what people fail to grasp is that Leopard is STILL OSX... OK? Look at the name of this forum "OSX 10.5 (Leopard)... That is the key.

You've still not answered my question of "Why should the release of Leopard be any different to that of Tiger, Panther etc?" Why should Leopard be touted as a whole new OS by certain people here, when it is to Tiger what Tiger was to Leopard?

aswitcher

Feb 9, 2007, 08:37 PM

Be nice if they just rolled iLife and iWork together for a bt cheaper, and did a family version as well.

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 08:37 PM

Why the sarky comments?!

For the last time. I REALISE what the technical stuff means for programs that choose to utilise it. I REALISE that Leopard is going to be huge, but what people fail to grasp is that Leopard is STILL OSX... OK? Look at the name of this forum "OSX 10.5 (Leopard)... That is the key.

You've still not answered my question of "Why should the release of Leopard be any different to that of Tiger, Panther etc?" Why should Leopard be touted as a whole new OS by certain people here, when it is to Tiger what Tiger was to Leopard?

that wasnt sarky so dont think of it that way, (although i can see why you would think that) people just call major releases new OS' cuz it basically is a new OS within the same OS...if that makes any sence

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 08:38 PM

Be nice if they just rolled iLife and iWork together for a bt cheaper, and did a family version as well.

they do do a family version of ilife

The Scotsman

Feb 9, 2007, 08:41 PM

they do do a family version of ilife

The family version of ilife has no extra features it just means you are purchasing the license to install it onto a maximum of 5 computers in your home!!!

winstano

Feb 9, 2007, 08:42 PM

that wasnt sarky so dont think of it that way, (although i can see why you would think that) people just call major releases new OS' cuz it basically is a new OS within the same OS...if that makes any sence

Fair do's...

It sorta makes sense, but right now it's 2:41am, and I'm gonna get some sleep...

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 08:42 PM

The family version of ilife has no extra features it just means you are purchasing the license to install it onto a maximum of 5 computers in your home!!!

exactly...:confused:

shawnce

Feb 9, 2007, 08:44 PM

Why should Leopard be touted as a whole new OS by certain people here It shouldn't.

It is however bringing a lot of new stuff to the table and the 64b framework set is the end of the line for a decent chunk of legacy APIs from early Mac OS NeXTStep/OpenStep, and Mac OS X (existing applications are not affected).

So in a way 10.5 will affect the future of Mac OS X and application development more then 10.4 ever did.

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 08:49 PM

It shouldn't.

It is however bringing a lot of new stuff to the table and the 64b framework set is the end of the line for a decent chunk of legacy APIs from early Mac OS NeXTStep/OpenStep, and Mac OS X (existing applications are not affected).

So in a way 10.5 will affect the future of Mac OS X and application development more then 10.4 ever did.

and this will in turn affect mac presently as well

chmorley

Feb 9, 2007, 08:54 PM

...WHY should Leopard be any different to the previous upgrades to OSX? Why should it be overhauled? If you actually read all of my posts before making such a scathing reply, you'd see that I was, in fact, trying to say that each version of OSX has been optimized by things I "don't care" about (Which is wrong, I do care about them, I just don't know how to use them/will never use them through coding etc, because I simply can't), with a few features that will utilise this...

Once again, I reiterate my point.. The more features that are speculated about in here, the more people will be disappointed.If you believe hat little has changed in OS X for the end user, try using 10.1 or 10.2 for a day or two. I believe you will find 10.4 is a system that is a) markedly faster, b) is easier to work with. I was thinking about this recently--while each release has been evolutionary (rather than revolutionary), when you compare the progress that has been made since 10.2 is huge--certainly greater than the difference between Windows 2000 and Win XP. I'd expect the additional integration of Mail and iCal to do's and some of the other core OS features will make a big enough difference that most of us will be happy. When you add to that the addition of CoreAnimation (and what looked in the WWDC '07 keynote to be very cool integration with Keynote), I think most of us will be pleasantly surprised.

Honestly, my mother has all she needs in an OS. I doubt Leopard will make a difference for her. For many of us, though, it'll be a nice upgrade.

And thanks for trying to save us from disappointing ourselves, but I think we'll be all right. :)

Chris

Toe

Feb 9, 2007, 09:01 PM

I am not a regular visitor of think secret. I visited tonight and had a good poke about and one thing I did find is that comments posted from think secret regulars dont think TH is very credible. I also read a lot of their past post/news/rumours and a lot of them a very wrong.

IMHO, ThinkSecret has the best track record of any rumors site.

k2k koos

Feb 9, 2007, 09:03 PM

Please elaborate. Please, please elaborate!

If it's true that

1) There are top secret features AND
2) 10.5 is just a month or two away from release

Then it follows that the secret features won't need developer testing, and are more of an application than a OS feature. And what application would that be?

I don't know, but I daydream about it being a MS-killer. Windows-virtualization built in?

1) YES: Steve Jobs even mentions it in his keynote last year at WWDC
2) Not certain, but there is a possibility, you never know with Apple.

Toe

Feb 9, 2007, 09:04 PM

Vista spread out to 4-5 years is nothing....
Except that you have to wait 4-5 years for a (somewhat) significant upgrade. Compare that to the frequent updates I've gotten from Apple.

I'm sure I've spent more on OS X in the past 5 years than some people are spending now on Vista, but... I got to get more frequent improvements. And those improvements add up to a Tiger that is noticeably superior to Vista in numerous ways.

The Scotsman

Feb 9, 2007, 09:08 PM

IMHO, ThinkSecret has the best track record of any rumors site.

Well honestly I dont know a lot about them but I just got the impression that even the regulars thought they were not very credible and did find a lot of their rumors were way out but yet they implied they had some inside knowledge. I suppose I should give them a chance before downing them.

Hey nice planets on your profile picture. Did you have anything to do with the fake Feb 1st invites LOL.

joeboy_45101

Feb 9, 2007, 09:09 PM

Has any major software project ever finished ahead of schedule???

GregA

Feb 9, 2007, 09:35 PM

They're also a member of the DVD Forum (the HD DVD people).
I believe you are right. Apple is a member of both groups.

Note, however, that Apple is also on the board of directors of the Blu-ray Disc Association.

Toe

Feb 9, 2007, 09:39 PM

Hey nice planets on your profile picture. Did you have anything to do with the fake Feb 1st invites LOL.
Heh... nah, I just cribbed that off Wikimedia Commons:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Celestia.png

I haven't even looked up thesoftware that it's the icon for... I just like the look of it.

There are a kajillion more:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Icons
and Wikimedia is all about freely-licensed images (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Licensing).

Enjoy!

SpaceJello

Feb 9, 2007, 09:43 PM

If the "secret" of leopard doesn't require developers testing...could it possibly be just an UI change? Like the ever rumoured "Illuminous" GUI.

How i dream.

The Scotsman

Feb 9, 2007, 09:43 PM

I believe you mate. Thousands wouldnt LOL.

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 09:51 PM

If the "secret" of leopard doesn't require developers testing...could it possibly be just an UI change? Like the ever rumoured "Illuminous" GUI.

How i dream.

it would be a nice touch

chubad

Feb 9, 2007, 09:52 PM

Let's face it. Think Secret is washed up.:( They are grasping for any sort of attention and as a result we get lame rumors like this.
Gee Leopard might come out early and iLife either slightly sooner, or at the same time...... or after. See we were right!

:rolleyes:

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 09:57 PM

sexyfoolxx

Feb 9, 2007, 10:02 PM

What does that mean? :) You talking virtual memory, hardware addressing, data paths, etc.?

Anyway attempting to answer why I said "not true".

Applications can use 64b virtual addressing to get access to a HUGE virtual memory space. Having access to such a large memory space allows to them to work with extremely large data sets and in ways that don't require them to implement code to do some type of sliding memory window (attempting to fit their data set into a 32b aperture). It makes programming a lot easier in those situations.

Mac OS X 10.5 will allow graphical applications to use 64b virtual addressing (10.4 limited it to basic POSIX command line tools).

The above concept is independent of how much RAM can be installed in a system or addressed by the hardware.

Additionally on Intel based system having an application compiled for 64b virtual addressing also enables ISA extensions that can improve performance of an application... again a capability independent of how much RAM a system can support.

i'm talking about it not being virtual...the whole system running as 32bit systems use ram now...64bit would mean that all apps are accessing ram (then virtual memory when ram is full or "sleeping")

and so basically what you're saying is that leopard will NOT be 64bit? it will only allow apps to be ran virtually as 64bit?

SiliconAddict

Feb 9, 2007, 10:02 PM

1st: It's almost the middle of February, and we've heard nothing regarding a release date. Leopard contains a TON of under the hood modifications to the OS, and as a result, it breaks a bunch of apps. Giving third party developers a month to fix their app to work with a new OS isn't cool. Apple traditionally gives a little more notice than that. Factor in the rumor that a whole new UI will be part of Leopard, and there is almost no way Apple would spring a release that monumental without ample lead time for the 3rd party developers.

Elaborate please. Apple has gone on the record as saying the existing API would change that much. Additions, sure. But Apple realizes that developers have been going nuts over the years with their tweakings.

If the "secret" of leopard doesn't require developers testing...could it possibly be just an UI change? Like the ever rumoured "Illuminous" GUI.

How i dream.

If so the reasoning at WWDC of MS stealing their idea, and the core excuse of not demoing those top secret features, would be the most asinine in the history of computing.
Gates: "Ooooo Apple has a new color scheme! Stop the press coders! I want that in Windows NOW!"

But who knows. It is Steve's RDF in action after all. :p

GregA

Feb 9, 2007, 10:03 PM

If the "secret" of leopard doesn't require developers testing...could it possibly be just an UI change? Like the ever rumoured "Illuminous" GUI.
The finder is really an application.... but other applications use it to get to files, don't they?

Anyway - say the finder uses CoreAnimation - if Leopard is out without the finder, coreanimation can still be getting tested by all the developers, so that's fine. But, the application "Finder" would still have to be tested in the wild, somehow, to ensure it works.

gwest

Feb 9, 2007, 10:04 PM

Do you agree with the speculation that iWork is Leopard-dependent and will be released only when Leopard is completed?

Not to rain on everyone's parade, but I'm highly skeptical. I've got the latest seed of Leopard, and it's still not even close to ready for prime time.

A March release is possible -- I would be thrilled to have to eat my words on this -- but I am skeptical.

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 10:09 PM

when in march are we tlaking about? late or just anytime in march is highly unlikley
:apple: :apple: :apple:

peharri

Feb 9, 2007, 10:09 PM

yeah ive read it, and uh yeah i still dont undersand it :o

can anyone explain it in lehmens terms...

It's a file system. A file system is essentially the software that stores files on a disk, determining where to put them, and how to find them. Macintoshes normally use HFS+ for their file systems. Mac OS X also supports a file system called UFS, but almost nobody uses it. HFS+'s origins go back to later versions of classic Mac OS, where it was an upgrade to HFS, which in turn was designed back in the late 1980s, when most Macs primarily used 400k-1.4M floppy disks.

ZFS is an extremely advanced file system that supports a lot of things HFS+ doesn't. Many of them fit into the Macintosh "Just works" philosophy. For example, you can add a disk to your computer, and configure your existing "drive" to be spread over both the disk that was already in your computer, and the new one, without reformatting or losing any files. So by adding the disk, you've just added space to your computer, and it was completely transparent. No reorganizing of your disk is necessary.

ZFS is more future proof than HFS+ which means future Macs will be able to interoperate better with current Macs. It uses 128bit values to store things like file positions and sizes. What this boils down to is that you can have more bytes in a file than there are atoms in the universe, and ZFS will handle it gracefully. Of course, you'll need a disk that big, which you'll not be able to get, because, well, you'd need a lot of atoms ;)

Older file systems generally get "upgraded" every years with a batch of hacks to support larger disk sizes than were anticipated when the file system was written. That will not be necessary with ZFS.

ZFS supports the same kinds of things you're used to in Mac OS X, such as long filenames, directories, "meta data" (icons, file type information, default application, etc), and other useful extras.

It's extremely fast, and has little or no legacy issues that would slow it down.

Does that help?

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 10:11 PM

It's a file system. A file system is essentially the software that stores files on a disk, determining where to put them, and how to find them. Macintoshes normally use HFS+ for their file systems. Mac OS X also supports a file system called UFS, but almost nobody uses it. HFS+'s origins go back to later versions of classic Mac OS, where it was an upgrade to HFS, which in turn was designed back in the late 1980s, when most Macs primarily used 400k-1.4M floppy disks.

ZFS is an extremely advanced file system that supports a lot of things HFS+ doesn't. Many of them fit into the Macintosh "Just works" philosophy. For example, you can add a disk to your computer, and configure your existing "drive" to be spread over both the disk that was already in your computer, and the new one, without reformatting or losing any files. So by adding the disk, you've just added space to your computer, and it was completely transparent. No reorganizing of your disk is necessary.

ZFS is more future proof than HFS+ which means future Macs will be able to interoperate better with current Macs. It uses 128bit values to store things like file positions and sizes. What this boils down to is that you can have more bytes in a file than there are atoms in the universe, and ZFS will handle it gracefully. Of course, you'll need a disk that big, which you'll not be able to get, because, well, you'd need a lot of atoms ;)

Older file systems generally get "upgraded" every years with a batch of hacks to support larger disk sizes than were anticipated when the file system was written. That will not be necessary with ZFS.

ZFS supports the same kinds of things you're used to in Mac OS X, such as long filenames, directories, "meta data" (icons, file type information, default application, etc), and other useful extras.

It's extremely fast, and has little or no legacy issues that would slow it down.

Does that help?

yeah it does thanks mon

The Scotsman

Feb 9, 2007, 10:13 PM

Do agree with the speculation that iWork is Leopard-dependent and will be released only when Leopard is completed?

Yes I agree with iLife and iWork being leapord dependant and I thought everybody else did but I was proved wrong several times tonight when lots of people post that they think iLife and iWork will be launched before leapord. I cant see this but I ofcourse could be wrong.

The 64bit debate is now starting to do my head in. Watch wwdc06keynote again everybody. Steve jobs states leapord has support for 64bit. it is true 64bit and does not use emulators. Just install leapord people when it comes out and forget about the 64bit thing because leapord supports 64bit along side 32bit no switch or extra installs.

billyboy

Feb 9, 2007, 10:51 PM

I was budgeting for a new Mac with Leopard in the summer, but I just reinstalled panther and my powerbook s flying again. Now I am rescheduling Leopard/MacPro purchase for when Think Secret get a prediction right. My money is probably safe for another 12 months.

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 11:05 PM

EagerDragon

Feb 9, 2007, 11:23 PM

When I buy, I won't able to afford to upgrade to the new ilife and leopard and new iwork. So to me, it really does matter when I buy, the fact I have to sell my only computer to switch proves a pain in the bum.

Mac Mini proves the best option for me :)
Sounds like you have to wait to get the software you want, and the mini is overdue to go core2 duo, so might as well wait. Depending on your cash a MacBook maybe better for you, but only if you have the money of course.

iMaki

Feb 9, 2007, 11:23 PM

I hope more than you could know this is true. I must have a new Mac. The question is: should I wait till later this year for the new Penryn processors. I want to be on the cutting edge. And if a newly designed case is in the works for the iMac in conjunction with the Penryn processors, I will wait. I appreciate any speculation on new hardware models at the time Leopard is released and the release of the Penryn systems. :confused:

matticus008

Feb 9, 2007, 11:28 PM

Then, what about resolution independence? [...] many of Apple's own applications don't work properly with it. As a programmer myself, I'll be highly impressed if they get resolution independence working properly in the next few weeks.
In what way? Other than visually speaking (because the UI glyphs and widgets are not themselves ready), my impression was that resolution independence seems finished. I'm curious; what's broken?

The developer builds are most certainly incomplete, as Peace and others have said. There are too many odd little things that have never been fixed and the Finder hasn't been touched at all. All the hints are that these sections are undergoing changes in a different branch (new Finder as promised, new UI as hinted, and whatever else Apple has up its sleeve are likely candidates).

Leopard is not a new OS. It is an upgrade to OSX.
And that makes it not new, how? Vista is an upgrade to XP. It's a new OS. Mandriva 2007 is an upgrade to Mandriva 2005. It's also a new OS.

You've still not answered my question of "Why should the release of Leopard be any different to that of Tiger, Panther etc?"
It's not. This exact same thing happened here with both Tiger and Panther. I wasn't around MacRumors prior to those, but I imagine it continued further into the past.
Why should Leopard be touted as a whole new OS by certain people here, when it is to Tiger what Tiger was to Leopard?
Tiger was touted (rightly)as a whole new OS, so why shouldn't Leopard be?

Telp

Feb 9, 2007, 11:30 PM

What is resolution independance?:confused:

pimentoLoaf

Feb 9, 2007, 11:48 PM

I was looking up the ISBN number of Leopard Missing Manual and although one bookstore lists June 2007 as the publication date, another lists April. Since the latter is newer, I figure that might be an indication it will be out sooner.

matticus008

Feb 10, 2007, 12:08 AM

What is resolution independance?:confused:
Resolution independence is a concept where the size of objects on your screen is not based on the number of pixels you have available to you. This is desirable because as pixels get smaller and smaller, resolution increases at a high rate. An element, say a JPEG picture, has a fixed size in pixels, say 350x350. On a 15" 1280x800 display, it might be 4" in size. On a 15" 1920x1200 display, it would be just 3" on a side. As resolutions increase, fixed-pixel objects shrink. This is why some displays have resolutions too high to be useful (because text and interface objects become too small to be useful.

Resolution independence allows developers to say that, say, the red "close" window button will always be 1/4" in diameter. That means that it will be 1/4" in diameter whether the screen has a resolution of 100x40 or 1440x900 or 5000x3000. This will also get rid of "the jaggies" for the most part and allow people to work with extremely high resolutions without microscopic buttons and text.

I was looking up the ISBN number of Leopard Missing Manual and although one bookstore lists June 2007 as the publication date, another lists April. Since the latter is newer, I figure that might be an indication it will be out sooner.
ISBN publication dates are just projections submitted by the publisher. Unless a specific date has been announced, I wouldn't pay much attention to it. Book authors are rarely given any privileged information. Even with a date, one can't be sure until it's actually in the presses being printed.