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MacRumors
Mar 4, 2007, 08:10 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Details and screenshots are beginning to emerge regarding Leopard (build 9A377a), which was seeded to developers (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/03/02/mac-os-x-10-5-leopard-9a377a-seeded/) on Friday.

According to the InsanelyMac Forum (http://forum.insanelymac.com/index.php?showtopic=44006), the long list of known bugs plus bugs encountered during testing indicate that the build is a far cry from being ready for prime time. This casts doubt upon recent reports (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/02/20/mac-os-x-leopard-10-5-at-end-of-march/) that Leopard will be ready for a late-March release.

Bugs aside, the new build did introduce some new features and interface improvements, namely in Automator, Spotlight, and the Sharing and Screensaver preference panes.

Continue reading for highlights of these improvements. (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/03/04/leopard-build-9a377a-details-emerging/)

[ Digg This (http://www.digg.com/apple/Leopard_Build_9A377a_Details_Emerging) ]



TC2COOL
Mar 4, 2007, 08:16 PM
It's like the Energizer Bunny, but in reverse...

"Still waiting..."

ThomasJefferson
Mar 4, 2007, 08:17 PM
If you cough up the new powermacs steve, all is forgiven.

Telp
Mar 4, 2007, 08:21 PM
It's like the Energizer Bunny, but in reverse...

"Still waiting..."

hahaha but seriously, i cant wait, and it seems as if apple is really making a LOT of changes and ehancements, even if they are just small UI changes here and a new screensaver there, they are really trying to make Leopard the best that they can. I would guess part of that is to get XP usersm, microsoft users in general to switch over to apple, and i think they are on the right pathway to doing that. As long as the security is good, and its not just all eyecandy, Leopard is going to be amazing !! :D

Scarlet Fever
Mar 4, 2007, 08:21 PM
i don't really care how long it takes. If it means 10.5 will be the most stable mac os release yet, ill wait until christmas!

Telp
Mar 4, 2007, 08:23 PM
If you cough up the new powermacs steve, all is forgiven.

Leopards release wont be enough?

skoker
Mar 4, 2007, 08:24 PM
At this rate Vista will be stable enough to run life support systems before Leopard is announced.

:confused: :apple:

Telp
Mar 4, 2007, 08:25 PM
i don't really care how long it takes. If it means 10.5 will be the most stable mac os release yet, ill wait until christmas!


I agree, but it would not be good for apple if that happened, and i dont expect it to happen either...but your right, ill wait if it means a more stable OS

Telp
Mar 4, 2007, 08:26 PM
At this rate Vista will be stable enough to run life support systems before Leopard is announced.

:confused: :apple:

haha no it wont, as long as it runs on microsoft's kernal it will never be stable

Daveway
Mar 4, 2007, 08:26 PM
Wasn't Tiger riddled with bugs weeks before launch?

psycoswimmer
Mar 4, 2007, 08:27 PM
These slight improvements seem to be really good. I especially like the "Watch Me Do" function of Automator. For less experienced Mac users, this could be really good. I've already thought of ways I could use that.

Telp
Mar 4, 2007, 08:27 PM
Wasn't Tiger riddled with bugs weeks before launch?

10.0 was

Cougarcat
Mar 4, 2007, 08:28 PM
Very nice, I've been wanting a "Watch Me Do" feature in Automator (seriously, was that the best name they could come up with??) and Spotlight's UI was in desperate need of an overhaul. Hate the ALL CAPS iTunes-style titles, though.

Telp
Mar 4, 2007, 08:29 PM
Very nice, I've been wanting a "Show Me Do" feature in Automator (seriously, was that the best name they could come up with??) and Spotlight's UI was in despeare need of an overhaul. Hate the ALL CAPS iTunes titles, though.

get over the name, it does what you want and thats all that matters

PlaceofDis
Mar 4, 2007, 08:29 PM
i don't really care how long it takes. If it means 10.5 will be the most stable mac os release yet, ill wait until christmas!

agreed. i want it to be their best effort. especially since OS development is slowing down over all. i'd rather get a super stable, bug-free 10.5 and feel comfortable upgrading ASAP, than waiting for the kinks to get worked out.

Matthew Yohe
Mar 4, 2007, 08:30 PM
Wow, very surprised they are adding the feature to choose other folders to be shared... Interesting shift in their thinking.

EGT
Mar 4, 2007, 08:31 PM
i don't really care how long it takes. If it means 10.5 will be the most stable mac os release yet, ill wait until christmas!

Yes, I agree to an extent but there has to be balance, Christmas would be too long to wait. :p

This must be a tough time to be a software developer at Cupertino, esp. with Steve Jobs breathing down your neck and the release deadline drawing ever closer.

Take it easy Apple guys, you're doing well. :cool:

osirisX
Mar 4, 2007, 08:32 PM
Automator looks good and the Watch Me Do feature sounds great.

Telp
Mar 4, 2007, 08:33 PM
Yes, I agree to an extent but there has to be balance, Christmas would be too long to wait. :p

This must be a tough time to be a software developer at Cupertino, esp. with Steve Jobs breathing down your neck and the release deadline drawing ever closer.

Take it easy Apple guys, you're doing well. :cool:

thats what we like to hear, shouts of encouragement! wOOt

psycoswimmer
Mar 4, 2007, 08:36 PM
Very nice, I've been wanting a "Watch Me Do" feature in Automator (seriously, was that the best name they could come up with??) and Spotlight's UI was in desperate need of an overhaul. Hate the ALL CAPS iTunes-style titles, though.

I actually like the iTunes-style titles, IMO. The new Spotlight looks nice.

gugy
Mar 4, 2007, 08:36 PM
humm...
I might think the new octo-core MacPro will be announce at WWDC because of Leopard.

Telp
Mar 4, 2007, 08:38 PM
humm...
I might think the new octo-core MacPro will be announce at WWDC because of Leopard.

I think we will be seeing a lot of sweet stuff from apple once leopard is released.

stephenli
Mar 4, 2007, 08:43 PM
good! pls bring it in March.
I will wait for 10.5 to purchase a new iMac.:)

the.snitch
Mar 4, 2007, 08:44 PM
SHAREPOINTS! :D I've been wanting to share separate files other than just my home directory, without third party tools for ever.

Perhaps one of the few things that is easier on windows. Right click folder>Sharing and security>Check tickbox to share.

Now all we need is a better way to automount network volumes at login, other than dragging the share into login items. It doesn't remember the passwords for windows shares, for "security reasons", even though a "remember in keychain" tickbox is right there on the authentication dialog. :mad:

However simple writing a script is (I know how), users shouldn't be forced to go there.

zblaxberg
Mar 4, 2007, 08:45 PM
raise your hand if your not surprised that leopard isn't coming out yet...

Telp
Mar 4, 2007, 08:46 PM
good! pls bring it in March.
I will wait for 10.5 to purchase a new iMac.:)

smart move, i want a new imac...i was a sick C2D with a huge ass harddrive. :( oh well

n-abounds
Mar 4, 2007, 08:46 PM
SO excited for "Watch Me Do". I've always wondered why it just can't record action like that. As for the name...well it's self-explanatory which is good for new users who will be using such a thing.

Telp
Mar 4, 2007, 08:46 PM
raise your hand if your not surprised that leopard isn't coming out yet...

what are talking about? its not even spring yet

Stella
Mar 4, 2007, 08:51 PM
Macro recording in automator is great.

Many OSX text editors lack such a basic feature that you would find in many windows text editors. I could use regex instead of macro recording ( to achieve the same affect ) , but I can never remember the expressions ( apart from a few basic ). Thus, I'd use this in a second. ( I know Text Mate has macro recording, but it doesn't have much functionality - I prefer BBEdit - more functionality but crap interface )

And yes, responding to another previous post, Tiger was riddled with bugs. Hopefully Apple will take time for a better 10.5.0 release.

The share point like functionality is also a welcome addition.

zblaxberg
Mar 4, 2007, 08:56 PM
At this rate Vista will be stable enough to run life support systems before Leopard is announced.

:confused: :apple:

Vista could have their next os out before apple releases leopard at this point

It's like the Energizer Bunny, but in reverse...

"Still waiting..."

forgive me if I agree with him...

ventro
Mar 4, 2007, 08:56 PM
I think it looks... messy. I dont like how they are mixing the old graphic assets with the new stuff. They should redesign everything, even if it's supposed to look like the old stuff. Hopefully this is placeholder for something awesome.

Telp
Mar 4, 2007, 08:59 PM
Vista could have their next os out before apple releases leopard at this point



forgive me if I agree with him...

OK A) no way will MICROSOFT have there next vista verssion before Apple, and B) Apple said spring, its not spring yet, there is also three months of spring, of which we are not in yet. C) just be patient, even if microsoft does somehowhave there next vista version out (which they wont) Leopard is still gunna be way better

MrSmith
Mar 4, 2007, 09:00 PM
Synced stickies. Yesss! :cool:

peedub
Mar 4, 2007, 09:01 PM
Vista could have their next os out before apple releases leopard at this point

haven't they been saying it will be released in spring for ages? ... hasn't spring only just begun for you guys??

TC2COOL
Mar 4, 2007, 09:03 PM
what are talking about? its not even spring yet

I'm not wearing a coat to work anymore. Therefore, I declare that it is in fact spring.

Therefore, I am impatient for Leopard/Widescreen iPods/New Macs/Pro-Baseball/Etc.

Telp
Mar 4, 2007, 09:05 PM
I'm not wearing a coat to work anymore. Therefore, I declare that it is in fact spring.

Therefore, I am impatient for Leopard/Widescreen iPods/New Macs/Pro-Baseball/Etc.


i never wear a coat anywhere, therefor i could declare anydayspring that i wanted to, but that doesnt make it so. my guess is no new ipod till after the iphone, and new macs fairly soon. but leopard is a spring release and since spring is 3 months long, and wever yet to enter the first part of spring, i would calm down and wait just like eveorny else has too, sept the devs.

Analog Kid
Mar 4, 2007, 09:07 PM
i don't really care how long it takes. If it means 10.5 will be the most stable mac os release yet, ill wait until christmas!

Agreed-- I'm getting nervous they may push this out prematurely. I know myself, I'll upgrade immediately and I don't want to suffer through the bugs. Better for Apple to force me to wait than to trust myself.

I like what I'm seeing so far-- Spotlight is becoming more usable, Automator is taking its rightful place as the Script Editor replacement, TimeMachine is going to make my life much more secure... I've already discounted the "top secret" features as hype-- they won't amount to much in my opinion, and I'm not bothered by that. What I see so far is enough for me.

Just make it stable. That's all I have left to ask for.

Now all we need is a better way to automount network volumes at login, other than dragging the share into login items.
I never knew you could do that! I've been setting automounts in NetInfo Manager... I'll have to try using the login items. What happens if the mount point isn't there?

irishgrizzly
Mar 4, 2007, 09:12 PM
While all the listed improvements sound nice, I feel like I'm seeing the list of new stuff for 10.4.9 :rolleyes:

Telp
Mar 4, 2007, 09:12 PM
While all the listed improvements sound nice, I feel like I'm seeing the list of new stuff for 10.4.9 :rolleyes:

explain...

rijiMacDij
Mar 4, 2007, 09:13 PM
:eek:

Just sold my G5 Dual last night in readiness for the rumored early arrival of the spotty cat.

"Watch me do", very remeniscent of the Apple Corps "Love Me Do" and therefore very appropriate!

Yes, I want My OS X 10.5 but Yes I want it as Stable as possible, Can I wait, Looks like I'm gonna Have to.

freiheit
Mar 4, 2007, 09:15 PM
Wow, very surprised they are adding the feature to choose other folders to be shared... Interesting shift in their thinking.

I wholeheartedly agree, but now that I'll be getting rid of my PC and running on just the Mac (with Parallels for a couple of Win and OS/2 things) I no longer need it. Too little too late in this case. I wonder if they'll also finally make it easier to automatically mount shares from other computers, but again I won't care since I won't have a second computer anymore (where was this stuff 2 years ago?).

Telp
Mar 4, 2007, 09:15 PM
:eek:

Just sold my G5 Dual last night in readiness for the rumored early arrival of the spotty cat.

"Watch me do", very remeniscent of the Apple Corps "Love Me Do" and therefore very appropriate!

Yes, I want My OS X 10.5 but Yes I want it as Stable as possible, Can I wait, Looks like I'm gonna Have to.

what are you using now?

maxrobertson
Mar 4, 2007, 09:17 PM
Wasn't Tiger riddled with bugs weeks before launch?

Haha... Tiger was riddled with bugs weeks after launch.

I think they're trying to avoid that this time.

I also agree with the statements that the UI is sort of ugly mixing iTunes with Aqua... I really hate the iTunes look alone but it looks out of place mixed in with Aqua. And the all caps dividers are really annoying.

Telp
Mar 4, 2007, 09:20 PM
Haha... Tiger was riddled with bugs weeks after launch.

I think they're trying to avoid that this time.

especially with all the microsoft switchers...

rijiMacDij
Mar 4, 2007, 09:20 PM
what are you using now?

It's sold but not delivered!

ppnkg
Mar 4, 2007, 09:21 PM
Apple are taking their time...and in the meantime there's no real sign that 10.5 will bring great changes. It looks to me more like 10.4.10.

Telp
Mar 4, 2007, 09:22 PM
It's sold but not delivered!

thats gotta be so exciting...

Telp
Mar 4, 2007, 09:23 PM
Apple are taking their time...and in the meantime there's no real sign that 10.5 will bring great changes. It looks to me more like 10.4.10.

big changes under the hood tho, even if you dont see it on top

Roller
Mar 4, 2007, 09:23 PM
In addition to new features/eye candy and stability, I hope they're working hard on security. 10.5 needs to be the most secure OS X yet. I have a feeling that we're on borrowed time as far as exploits go - recent bumps in market share are making the Mac more of a target.

weev
Mar 4, 2007, 09:24 PM
Have I missed something?

Where are the SECRET NEW features that Jobs hinted at. The ones he said he wouldn't reveal to avoid the photocopiers starting. Vista is out so why hide them now?

Surely brand new features need developer testing too.

What have I missed?

Cult Follower
Mar 4, 2007, 09:25 PM
I hope this means that Apple will announce the new features soon.

rijiMacDij
Mar 4, 2007, 09:25 PM
thats gotta be so exciting...

I went to transfer the important stuff to the powerbook but as Satan would have it, the powerbook can't find it's own OS. :cool:

So I'm now frantically trying not to think about it and distracting myself with this forum!

TheManOfSilver
Mar 4, 2007, 09:27 PM
In addition to new features/eye candy and stability, I hope they're working hard on security. 10.5 needs to be the most secure OS X yet. I have a feeling that we're on borrowed time as far as exploits go - recent bumps in market share are making the Mac more of a target.

I think that's very true. I'm proud of OS X's history of security, but Apple can't go on resting on its laurels. Talented hackers are out there.

Telp
Mar 4, 2007, 09:28 PM
I went to transfer the important stuff to the powerbook but as Satan would have it, the powerbook can't find it's own OS. :cool:

So I'm now frantically trying not to think about it and distracting myself with this forum!

thats the way to do it =]

Stridder44
Mar 4, 2007, 09:29 PM
raise your hand if your not surprised that leopard isn't coming out yet...


*kick's leg*

Damnit I'm terrible with instructions.

maccam
Mar 4, 2007, 09:30 PM
guys... i thought you new it was going to be released june 15 :confused:

Telp
Mar 4, 2007, 09:30 PM
In addition to new features/eye candy and stability, I hope they're working hard on security. 10.5 needs to be the most secure OS X yet. I have a feeling that we're on borrowed time as far as exploits go - recent bumps in market share are making the Mac more of a target.

Of course it will be, apple has a new reputation they have never had before what with all the switchers, and they gotta show that apple isnt just a joke company.

Have I missed something?

Where are the SECRET NEW features that Jobs hinted at. The ones he said he wouldn't reveal to avoid the photocopiers starting. Vista is out so why hide them now?

Surely brand new features need developer testing too.

What have I missed?

Ah, get over it, youll love the OS and youll go out and buy it any enjoy it, and it will be a great OS. Although i have no doubt that there is somethng that apple isnt showing anyone. Besides the fact that Vista isnt even technically fully out, since they are coming out with an update in a couple of months.

rijiMacDij
Mar 4, 2007, 09:31 PM
In addition to new features/eye candy and stability, I hope they're working hard on security. 10.5 needs to be the most secure OS X yet. I have a feeling that we're on borrowed time as far as exploits go - recent bumps in market share are making the Mac more of a target.

There's no point putting icing on a cake that tastes like poop! And who wants icing on a cake that tastes nice if any bum can steal it!

Telp
Mar 4, 2007, 09:33 PM
guys... i thought you new it was going to be released june 15 :confused:

wheres that date from?

inkswamp
Mar 4, 2007, 09:34 PM
The closer we get to spring, the less and less likely it seems to be that these secret features Steve alluded to last year is going to be an integral part of the OS which, to me, points to one of two possibilities: 1) a new app that ships with the OS (e.g., something like Automator, Photo Booth or Dashboard) or, 2) a new Finder. (Those of you who understand the Mac OS better than average will know that these two scnearios are actually one and the same as the Finder is just another app, but you get the point.) It's hard to see how it could be anything else this close to their release time frame. A separate app could be tested and bug-fixed in-house.

If it's a new app that ships with the OS, then I suspect it will be something that enhances or works with the iPhone and perhaps includes features that may be put to good use independently of the iPhone in some way. That would explain the secrecy from last year.

If it's a new Finder (and that's where my money is) it's likely that's when we'll see the new UI, new features (tabbed windows), and faster file access. I tend to think that's the most likely thing as we've seen virtually no change the in Finder in the leaked screenshots and I can't think of a release of OS X that didn't have significant changes to the Finder.

Just my 2 cents.

BTW, some of you newer members trying to cast aspersions on Apple for Leopard being "late" (which it isn't) let me tell you, it makes you look like some kind of troll. I'm already suspicious of how often I see newer members making un-called for negative comments about the Mac or Apple. It's really not necessary and this is the wrong place for it. I've been on this site for years, and I can assure you that nobody expects you to be an Apple cheerleader, but overly negative behavior kills the spirit of this site. Respect that, please by making your complaints legitimate ones. :)

maccam
Mar 4, 2007, 09:35 PM
wheres that date from?

I can't say, sorry

Telp
Mar 4, 2007, 09:36 PM
I can't say, sorry

Then how are we supposed to trust you?

maccam
Mar 4, 2007, 09:38 PM
wait and see :)

zblaxberg
Mar 4, 2007, 09:38 PM
guys... i thought you new it was going to be released june 15 :confused:

and who might your source be? june 15 isn't even a tuesday!

maccam
Mar 4, 2007, 09:40 PM
and who might your source be? june 15 isn't even a tuesday!

apple :)

iAlan
Mar 4, 2007, 09:42 PM
but what if Apple are much further along than the latest build may indicate? I mean, what if a lot of the know bugs are in fact resolved but not yet put into the build? I don't know if Apple woulod do this but it could mean Leopard will be out sooner than later and Apple are downplaying the relaease timeline for some reason? Maybe to let Microsoft think they are at an advantage with Vista already out there yet no really a complete OS either?

Dunno?

maccam
Mar 4, 2007, 09:51 PM
~correction~ june 11 or 15

Roller
Mar 4, 2007, 09:55 PM
The closer we get to spring, the less and less likely it seems to be that these secret features Steve alluded to last year is going to be an integral part of the OS which, to me, points to one of two possibilities: 1) a new app that ships with the OS (e.g., something like Automator, Photo Booth or Dashboard) or, 2) a new Finder. (Those of you who understand the Mac OS better than average will know that these two scnearios are actually one and the same as the Finder is just another app, but you get the point.) It's hard to see how it could be anything else this close to their release time frame. A separate app could be tested and bug-fixed in-house.

Interesting thought, but do you really think that Apple would release a new Finder after only in-house testing? After all, to most people the Finder IS the Mac, and a buggier-than-usual Finder revamp would be tough for Apple to live down. I think that it would be nearly impossible for them to do all the testing that needs to be done without outside developers' help.

BTW
Mar 4, 2007, 09:58 PM
Steve'o will release the secret features at WWDC and hand-out beta CDs of Leopard to all attendees. An open beta program will be opened to the general public for $19.95, which will be discounted from the full release when it ships.

But wait! There's more! What's this??? Leopard Server is such a huge leap over Tiger's server technologies that it will not even ship until November and will include Vista Server blasting features (i.e. an Exchange Killer collaboration services suite).

Order now within the next 10 minutes and Apple will throw-in iWorks 07 and iLife 07 with every copy of Leopard sold whether bundled with the Macs or boxed.

Oh, and here's the one more thing at WWDC to blow the walls down. Leopard will be the first Mac OS to ship in a Universal version and a Intel only version. Guess what the Intel only version can do? How about install on non-Apple hardware. News flash! Apple's been working up to this for some time now.

Boot Camp was just a proving ground. For what you ask? A hardware abstraction layer. Microsoft calls it HAL. This allows for Microsoft's OS to install on multiple vendors hardware and not give a panic. Apple created a HAL for Windows to run under with Boot Camp, so whatever Intel Mac hardware you ran Windows on, it would have no problem supporting the devices (i.e. optical disk, hard disk, mouse, bluetooth, etc.). This is the real secret Steve doesn't want anyone to know until D-day.

rfaulder
Mar 4, 2007, 10:08 PM
Oh, and here's the one more thing at WWDC to blow the walls down. Leopard will be the first Mac OS to ship in a Universal version and a Intel only version. Guess what the Intel only version can do? How about install on non-Apple hardware. News flash! Apple's been working up to this for some time now.

Boot Camp was just a proving ground. For what you ask? A hardware abstraction layer. Microsoft calls it HAL. This allows for Microsoft's OS to install on multiple vendors hardware and not give a panic. Apple created a HAL for Windows to run under with Boot Camp, so whatever Intel Mac hardware you ran Windows on, it would have no problem supporting the devices (i.e. optical disk, hard disk, mouse, bluetooth, etc.). This is the real secret Steve doesn't want anyone to know until D-day.

Why on Earth would Apple shoot themselves in the foot by doing that?

-OS does not work as seamlessly (have to make new drivers and everything from 3rd parties).
-Apple doesn't get a large profit, since all their money comes from hardware sales anyways.
-Everyone would buy cheap Dell boxes and put OS X on it instead of buying Apple hardware.

Terrible decision.

sushi
Mar 4, 2007, 10:11 PM
i don't really care how long it takes. If it means 10.5 will be the most stable mac os release yet, ill wait until christmas!
Don't know if I agree with waiting until Christmas. ;)

But do want Leopard to be a stable well constructed OS and not released before prime time. That is for sure.

Peace
Mar 4, 2007, 10:21 PM
~correction~ june 11 or 15

What did you do ? go read when the WWDC was :rolleyes:


Steve'o will release the secret features at WWDC and hand-out beta CDs of Leopard to all attendees. An open beta program will be opened to the general public for $19.95, which will be discounted from the full release when it ships.

But wait! There's more! What's this??? Leopard Server is such a huge leap over Tiger's server technologies that it will not even ship until November and will include Vista Server blasting features (i.e. an Exchange Killer collaboration services suite).

Order now within the next 10 minutes and Apple will throw-in iWorks 07 and iLife 07 with every copy of Leopard sold whether bundled with the Macs or boxed.

Oh, and here's the one more thing at WWDC to blow the walls down. Leopard will be the first Mac OS to ship in a Universal version and a Intel only version. Guess what the Intel only version can do? How about install on non-Apple hardware. News flash! Apple's been working up to this for some time now.

Boot Camp was just a proving ground. For what you ask? A hardware abstraction layer. Microsoft calls it HAL. This allows for Microsoft's OS to install on multiple vendors hardware and not give a panic. Apple created a HAL for Windows to run under with Boot Camp, so whatever Intel Mac hardware you ran Windows on, it would have no problem supporting the devices (i.e. optical disk, hard disk, mouse, bluetooth, etc.). This is the real secret Steve doesn't want anyone to know until D-day.

What you just described is called BIOS..Basic Input/Output System

Apple doesn't use a BIOS.

AMI makes a BIOS chip..As does Phoenix

Intel makes an EFI chip.Extensible Firmware Interface.The ones in all Intel Macs.This EFI is used to program a BIOS module that is used for Bootcamp.

phillipjfry
Mar 4, 2007, 10:24 PM
At this rate Vista will be stable enough to run life support systems before Leopard is announced.

:confused: :apple:

In twenty years, I still wouldn't trust vista to tell me it's time to pee :)

OT: Everyone will see, when Leopard is released, the secret features will make it all worth it. Apple could still pull this off with a March release, but if we take the time to look at all the "clues" (eg. what we can blindly put together), I think a May release is most likely.

Sam0r
Mar 4, 2007, 10:25 PM
Meh, I'm happy with XP.

Pooldraft
Mar 4, 2007, 10:28 PM
These slight improvements seem to be really good. I especially like the "Watch Me Do" function of Automator. For less experienced Mac users, this could be really good. I've already thought of ways I could use that.

I like the watch me do it feature as well, maybe this will actually get me to start using Automator.......maybe not.

Hopefully I won't have to wait to long to see what is OS is all about. Should have seen more of it a the Keynote speech but that pesky iPhone thing got in the way. Damn you gadget geeks.. HAHA:D

aafuss1
Mar 4, 2007, 10:33 PM
I like the iTunes like Spotlight interface-it's cool.

thejadedmonkey
Mar 4, 2007, 11:52 PM
Figures... I just got my Macbook Pro today.

space1nvaders
Mar 4, 2007, 11:55 PM
There's an old program I use that calls that function "Remember" which I think it way better.

puuukeey
Mar 4, 2007, 11:58 PM
gimme secret features!!!!!!

freiheit
Mar 5, 2007, 12:05 AM
I'm just wondering why the screenshots of these new features all have the 10.2-esque pinstriped backgrounds. 10.3 cleaned that up a lot and 10.4 looked much better, but those pinstripes got distracting back in the day (I think it was Thursday ;)).

the.snitch
Mar 5, 2007, 12:07 AM
Meh, I'm happy with XP.

Then get the hell off this forum, try xprumors.com



...:p

Mavimao
Mar 5, 2007, 12:07 AM
I just upgraded to Tiger from Panther a week ago...so I am in no hurry for Leopard. I would consider getting Leopard earlier in the game if I knew it was a rock solid OS with awesome features. If 10.5 needs another summer to clear out the bugs (and if anyone actually looked at the list on the link, there are some pretty nasty ones), I for one am in no hurry.

iJawn108
Mar 5, 2007, 12:09 AM
I hope there are even more security features in leopard. I might not upgrade and just buy a new desktop later this year or next. :p

Can't wait for 10.4.9

Lixivial
Mar 5, 2007, 12:25 AM
I'm just wondering why the screenshots of these new features all have the 10.2-esque pinstriped backgrounds.

It's no different from other standard Tiger [unified] Aqua windows -- Mail.app, for example. It's pinstriped to indicate that it's not the forefront window.

dylan
Mar 5, 2007, 12:27 AM
I don't understand why everyone thinks Leopard is late. Steve said it will be out in Spring '07, we still have until June 21st.

The bugs could be a result of the engineers stripping out all of the "Top Secret" stuff.

Expect Leopard at WWDC. I think we're all in for a big surprise.

jwdsail
Mar 5, 2007, 12:28 AM
I'm far more interested to know if PC cards like the Buffalo WLI-CB-AG300N will be seen as AirPort cards and support 802.11N in MacOS X 10.5, like the Buffalo b/g cards worked in the past.. Getting N support for my PowerBook would be a big step in me buying the new APEn and the AppleTV...

jwd

Wild-Bill
Mar 5, 2007, 12:28 AM
If Apple really waits until June during the WWDC, there are going to be a lot of unhappy people who have been waiting and waiting and waiting for an update to the Mac Pro. Releasing a product in August and then not updating a single thing for it until June is just unacceptable in my opinion. Leopard or not, the Mac Pro needs an update.

Tymmz
Mar 5, 2007, 12:30 AM
shared folders, thank you.

bonafide
Mar 5, 2007, 12:35 AM
I'm glad to see some news on Leopard..

The quicker the better. As soon as it comes out... I'm sure I'll be buying a iMac.

Stella
Mar 5, 2007, 12:40 AM
and who might your source be? june 15 isn't even a tuesday!

Past couple OSX releases have been on a Friday.

Where are the 'top secret' features? They weren't shown at the preview last year because maybe they were planned and didn't exist yet, or not ready for demo. Perhaps one or more of these have been dropped for 10.5.

Peace
Mar 5, 2007, 01:19 AM
Past couple OSX releases have been on a Friday.

Where are the 'top secret' features? They weren't shown at the preview last year because maybe they were planned and didn't exist yet, or not ready for demo. Perhaps one or more of these have been dropped for 10.5.

Think :apple: TV ,FCP 6.0,iTunes 7.1 ,QT 7.2 and NAB ;)

BWhaler
Mar 5, 2007, 01:24 AM
I'm far more interested to know if PC cards like the Buffalo WLI-CB-AG300N will be seen as AirPort cards and support 802.11N in MacOS X 10.5, like the Buffalo b/g cards worked in the past.. Getting N support for my PowerBook would be a big step in me buying the new APEn and the AppleTV...

jwd

You're going to be waiting forever. It's a hardware problem.

Sorry to break the news to you.

dongmin
Mar 5, 2007, 01:26 AM
~correction~ june 11 or 15Sounds reasonable: June 11 is the first day of WWDC. When Apple gives a time frame, it's usually at the tail end of that range. So "Spring 2007" screams June to me.

Ideally, we'll see previews of the super secret leopard features sometime in March, which will give developers a couple of months to debug it.

inkhead
Mar 5, 2007, 01:31 AM
What the hell is wrong with everyone? Why are there still stupid people who think Leopard is getting released soon? How can you be this retarded? Leopard won't be released until at least 4 weeks after WWDC, which is the first week of June. That means expect leopard in July.

I'll bet anyone $5,000.

Geeze everyone get your head out of your ass.

Apple is ABSOLUTELY NOT GOING TO COVER NEW FEATURES by just telling developers "Oh buy the way... Leopard is released today.. so if you don't have your apps ready, and haven't consulted a palm reader in advance to know about the final features that we ONLY first discussed and finalized today.. You are really screwed."

WWDC will be Steve announcing the finalized features (many aren't finalized with Xcode 3 even, and it's full of bugs) not to mention bout 30% of existing apps DO NOT work with Leopard, nor will a bunch of pre-existing apps.

Evangelion
Mar 5, 2007, 01:32 AM
Have I missed something?

Where are the SECRET NEW features that Jobs hinted at. The ones he said he wouldn't reveal to avoid the photocopiers starting. Vista is out so why hide them now?

Maybe... Those new features relies on hardware that is not yet released?

Regarding Automator: I would like to see the option of turning Automator in to a system-service. If you now want to do something you need to actually run Automator. How about something like "every file dropped to this folder will be turned to PDF and mailed to xxxxxx@xxxx.com". And OS X would do that even if Automator was not running. Automator would then me the tool we know now (running one-off repettive tasks) and it would also be the tool that is used to create those system-wide tasks (like the one I described above).

Mr. Dee
Mar 5, 2007, 01:58 AM
My reason for saying so is pretty simple. It all goes back to the "iHub" digital media strategy. Apple wants to provide a seamless out of box experience when it comes to Hardware + Software and Leopard is the key to that success.

Its no coincidence that the iPhone is coming in June (as noted in the new ad), especially with Leopard development now in progress, it also affects the iPhone which I suspect is running a variant of it. So, its a case of the iPhone won't be completed until Leopard is completed.

Then again, the iPhone is coming in June, I am sure Apple would likely want Leopard and iPhone to have their own moment in the spotlight. So, maybe June is probably not a suitable time frame for Leopard's release. I'm looking at a possible late April, early May '07 release.

Right now, the different division's at Apple are putting most of their time into getting Leopard integration seamless. iPod/iPhone, iWork/iLife, Pro Apps, Apple TV folks. Thats a whole lot of work and I'm sure third-party application support is another factor, Adobe's Creative Suite 3 is one set of Apps I believe Apple wants to have in close proximity to Leopard's launch. Imagine having Leopard and still find out you have run Adobe CS2 on Intel.

So here's the time table:
Apple TV - Mid March
Updated consumer systems shipping with Leopard (10.5), iWork '07 and iLife '07 - Late April/early May
Pro Apps (Final Cut Studio 6) - mid to Late May
iPhone - in June
WWDC, updated Pro Systems - June 11
Bankrupt user - July and possibly forever

Kelmon
Mar 5, 2007, 02:08 AM
I don't understand why everyone thinks Leopard is late. Steve said it will be out in Spring '07, we still have until June 21st.

The bugs a result of the engineers stripping out all of the "Top Secret" stuff.

Expect Leopard at WWDC. I think we're all in for a big surprise.

The thing that bothers me about this statement is the rationale for Apple removing the "Top Secret" features, particularly at this late stage of the process. Personally, I really don't think that they exist and that we are already seeing pretty much all there will be. I don't think that this is necessarily bad since I'd upgrade simply for Objective-C 2.0 and Xcode 3.0 but this statement of "Top Secret" features will, I believe, leave an unpleasant taste in the mouth. I didn't understand why they wouldn't show them last year at WWDC since the reason given (Microsoft will copy and add them into Vista) was quite obviously nonsense given that Vista was due to ship in a couple of months. 6 months later this idea that if Apple shows the features then they'll be copied makes even less sense to the point that I truly do not believe that they exist (whether they ever did is another question). You can't add important new features to an OS without telling people well in advance. This leaves 2 options:


The "Top Secret" features don't exist and Leopard stands a chance of being released around June.
The "Top Secret" features really do exist but the OS will need to be delayed to give everyone a suitable amount of time to test and understand them.


Oddly, I do expect the first option to be the correct one but the second is also possible, as long as we don't expect to see the OS released before 2008. The more the silence about this release continues the more I think the "Top Secret" features are another "3GHz G5 Next Year" statement that will come back to bite Apple.

DMann
Mar 5, 2007, 02:09 AM
Wasn't Tiger riddled with bugs weeks before launch?

Yes, I recall dozens of bugs in the dev release two weeks prior to the Gold Master. History repeating itself, perhaps?

shikimo
Mar 5, 2007, 02:16 AM
I'm not wearing a coat to work anymore. Therefore, I declare that it is in fact spring.

Therefore, I am impatient for Leopard/Widescreen iPods/New Macs/Pro-Baseball/Etc.

I BOLDLY PREDICT that MLB Baseball in the US will be released April 1, 2007 at 4:05 ET :cool: . At least for those of you on a continent lucky enough to see any of it.

Steve'o will release the secret features at WWDC and hand-out beta CDs of Leopard to all attendees. An open beta program will be opened to the general public for $19.95, which will be discounted from the full release when it ships.

But wait! There's more! What's this??? Leopard Server is such a huge leap over Tiger's server technologies that it will not even ship until November and will include Vista Server blasting features (i.e. an Exchange Killer collaboration services suite).

Order now within the next 10 minutes and Apple will throw-in iWorks 07 and iLife 07 with every copy of Leopard sold whether bundled with the Macs or boxed.

Oh, and here's the one more thing at WWDC to blow the walls down. Leopard will be the first Mac OS to ship in a Universal version and a Intel only version. Guess what the Intel only version can do? How about install on non-Apple hardware. News flash! Apple's been working up to this for some time now.

Boot Camp was just a proving ground. For what you ask? A hardware abstraction layer. Microsoft calls it HAL. This allows for Microsoft's OS to install on multiple vendors hardware and not give a panic. Apple created a HAL for Windows to run under with Boot Camp, so whatever Intel Mac hardware you ran Windows on, it would have no problem supporting the devices (i.e. optical disk, hard disk, mouse, bluetooth, etc.). This is the real secret Steve doesn't want anyone to know until D-day.

Now, THAT'S a quality rumor. High points for creativity and a bonus point for the "2001: A Space Odyssey" reference.

Never mind that it has zero chance of being even remotely accurate; I prefer entertainment over realism while waiting for new Leopard and new Macs.

I just upgraded to Tiger from Panther a week ago...so I am in no hurry for Leopard. I would consider getting Leopard earlier in the game if I knew it was a rock solid OS with awesome features. If 10.5 needs another summer to clear out the bugs (and if anyone actually looked at the list on the link, there are some pretty nasty ones), I for one am in no hurry.

Seriously, right on, what's the hurry?? I'm gonna run Tiger for 6 months after it comes out anyway...I stopped being the guinea pig after 10.1. 10.4.9 ought to be so smooooooth and worry free, why not enjoy it?? If I had two computers and a lot of free time, maybe, but apartments in France are really small...

aswitcher
Mar 5, 2007, 02:23 AM
I think Leopard is tied to new hardware features like HD LCDs and possibly other features. So I dont think we will see it until the hardware us ready - perhaps this hardware has been delayed for Leopard.

motulist
Mar 5, 2007, 02:24 AM
iCal goes ignored again, continuing to whither on the vine.

belovedmonster
Mar 5, 2007, 02:35 AM
Of course, all these rumours about Leopord being announced soon... they could well just point to an event were Jobs shows off the new features and announces the shipping date. Theres nothing to say that it will be out the day they hold a special event. Hearing that Leopard is still a while away from being ready just goes to confirm this.

Just before FCP and Logic are announced we will get a special event sometime telling us what these secret features are and a shipping date which will be the end of Spring. They will also announce the new iLife and iWork as shipping immediately but needing leopard to do much of the cool new stuff. Then a week or so later we will get the new pro apps announced with new features that make use of the secret features announced in the special event the week earlier.

Mr Skills
Mar 5, 2007, 03:08 AM
iCal goes ignored again, continuing to whither on the vine.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/ical.html

Evangelion
Mar 5, 2007, 03:11 AM
I think Leopard is tied to new hardware features like HD LCDs and possibly other features. So I dont think we will see it until the hardware us ready - perhaps this hardware has been delayed for Leopard.

We are due for new displays. iMac will be upgraded soon. And new laptops with new Intel-technology is on it's way. All of those will be upgraded in the next few months. What if Apple added Multitouch to all of those? Is there any reason to restrict it to just iPhone/iPod?

And when you think about it, Multitouch, while radical idea, doesn't really need that much of a change to the code. It's basically touchscreen combined with multiple pointing-devices. The biggest work is in the hardware, software in comparison is relatively simple. Yes, some apps might need to be changed to take better advantage of it. But it could still be used with un-optimized software, it's just a new kind of mouse, basically. I bet that iLife '07 and maybe iWork '07 will support it, as well as Leopard. And that might be why iLife and iWork has been delayed as well.

So new machines and displays, combined with Leopard and iLife/iWork. All of those seem to be pointing at the same spot. It seems to me that they are all connected. Leopard has features that need new hardware. New hardware has features that need Leopard. iLife/iWork has new features that need Leopard and new hardware.

I might be 100% wrong here. But remember: Multitouch and iPhone-UI was born out of Apple's research in to tablets and touchscreens. There's no reason to restrict that tech to just palm-sized devices, espesially since it was originally meant for "normal" computers.

it would make sense, and it would make Macs really stand clear from PC's.

matticus008
Mar 5, 2007, 03:33 AM
Vista could have their next os out before apple releases leopard at this point
If you thought Leopard had any chance of being released prior to today, you were fooling yourself. It's not even due out yet, so what's with all the "it's late" nonsense?

Spring doesn't start for over two weeks. It doesn't end for over three months. That's quite a big target. You'll be waiting a while. Get over it.
Interesting thought, but do you really think that Apple would release a new Finder after only in-house testing? After all, to most people the Finder IS the Mac, and a buggier-than-usual Finder revamp would be tough for Apple to live down. I think that it would be nearly impossible for them to do all the testing that needs to be done without outside developers' help.
What exactly would need to be tested about the Finder? I think his point was that there's no need for extensive developer hands-on time and therefore no rush to get it out in the seeded betas. Developers != beta testers. Some people do both, but developers themselves are only concerned with beta testing their own software. You're not a developer if you're just cruising around with a beta OS.

eopard will be the first Mac OS to ship in a Universal version and a Intel only version. Guess what the Intel only version can do? How about install on non-Apple hardware.
Funny how Apple hasn't been working with ANY hardware manufacturers to make this even remotely possible. I guess they've started using dark magic over in Cupertino.
Boot Camp was just a proving ground. For what you ask? A hardware abstraction layer. Microsoft calls it HAL. This allows for Microsoft's OS to install on multiple vendors hardware and not give a panic.
False. Everyone uses the acronym HAL for hardware abstraction layer, not just MS. More to the point, it has not a damn thing to do with Boot Camp or with compatibility. All a HAL does is separate the application-layer software from the real mode (formerly) or the protected mode hardware interface. It allows software makers to be unconcerned with the specific hardware installed and therefore makes their jobs easier because they no longer have to call hardware directly. Hardware abstraction layers have existed in Windows for 15 years and in OS X since day one. A HAL absolutely does not improve compatibility in any way whatsoever--it has nothing to do with drivers.
Releasing a product in August and then not updating a single thing for it until June is just unacceptable in my opinion.
What, do you operate a website that tracks Apple models and don't have anything to do? Products are updated when they're updated. Calling it unacceptable is a tad extreme. What would you like updated? Is there some other system out there shaming it? Last I checked, there haven't been any new Xeon processors yet, so there's not much to update.

mark88
Mar 5, 2007, 03:39 AM
I'm sick of people on this forum making statements like they know what's going on, you have no idea at all so stop saying 'Expect to see Leopard in June' like you're certain. P-lease...

And all those people expecting to see a new Finder or a new Interface, explain to me this:

If that is true, then why are they bothering updating the interfaces for certain apps already? Automator has a new unified interface, iChat has a new interface. If there's really a new UI why bother spending time changing the UI of these apps if only to change it again before Lepard is released?

Same thing goes for the Finder, why bother adding new features to the old Finder if there's going to be a new one? what exactly is the point? Are the trying to fool developers into thinking that the current Finder will be getting a few new prefs, only to pull the rug out from their feet and announce a new secret Finder?

I really don't think they' do that.

motulist
Mar 5, 2007, 04:26 AM
http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/ical.html

Yeah, I've seen these feature additions before, but the features they're adding are like adding a heliport to the roof of a slum building. It might sound good if you're trying to sell the house to people who aren't familiar with the place, but to those who actually live there, they see how stupid and useless the new feature is when the ceilings are crumbling and there's no hot water.

iCal needs 2 areas of improvement before anything else - usability and interface! For instance, there is no way to time shift multiple events. Another is when you copy and paste several events with different calendar designations they all lose their original calendar designations, etc. etc.

Fixing the basics needs to come before adding new features!

Maxiseller
Mar 5, 2007, 04:38 AM
What the hell is wrong with everyone? Why are there still stupid people who think Leopard is getting released soon? How can you be this retarded? Leopard won't be released until at least 4 weeks after WWDC, which is the first week of June. That means expect leopard in July.

I'll bet anyone $5,000.

Geeze everyone get your head out of your ass.

Apple is ABSOLUTELY NOT GOING TO COVER NEW FEATURES by just telling developers "Oh buy the way... Leopard is released today.. so if you don't have your apps ready, and haven't consulted a palm reader in advance to know about the final features that we ONLY first discussed and finalized today.. You are really screwed."

WWDC will be Steve announcing the finalized features (many aren't finalized with Xcode 3 even, and it's full of bugs) not to mention bout 30% of existing apps DO NOT work with Leopard, nor will a bunch of pre-existing apps.

This is what bullets were designed for...

Nym
Mar 5, 2007, 05:09 AM
whow! I can see a lot of people could use a chill pill :D

Seriously? Are we that desperate for a new OS? What SO wrong with Tiger? I for one will gladly wait until June if that means a clean, stable 10.5.0.

As of now I'm happy with Tiger, I can say that I'm waiting more for 10.4.9 than 10.5.0 :)
As for the top-secret features, I don't really know, usually Apple blows our minds with stuff we never thought about so I wouldn't say that the secret features that Jobs refered in WWDC 06 are a bunch of crap, I just don't bother trying to imagine what they are.

One thing I really want to see in Leopard is how Apple is giving use to Core Animation, I'd like do see folders and files flipping around (like dashboard widgets) to set their preferences, maybe the first introduction to 3d elements in the desktop, something different you know?


As for the release date... I don't have a clue, no one does, and ultimately that's my point, all predictions can be right or wrong ( although some seem more right than others, my vote goes to June ).

GregA
Mar 5, 2007, 05:59 AM
Where are the SECRET NEW features that Jobs hinted at. <snip>
Surely brand new features need developer testing too.
Yeah... time to see the top secret features.

Brand new features need developer testing unless they are applications that developers don't need to know about. Of course, brand new features do need beta testing.

This is what would blow me (& vista) away, IMO.
1) new finder - in cocoa, using core animation
2) virtual OSX server - centralised user management for peer-to-peer workgroups, virtual server hard disk, and network home directories - even if you don't have an actual OSX server. Feature tied to Airport Extreme external disk.
3) multiple simultaneous logins to a machine. Multiple sets of keyboards/mouse/screens each running independentally from one MacPro. And Apple starts selling terminals (& allowing old Macs to be terminals). Also used for remote control apps.
4) Groupware with advanced iCal
5) Log in to your Mac & your data & apps wherever you are, from Windows or Mac (better via Mac!)
Unlikely but possible.

Platform
Mar 5, 2007, 07:12 AM
Automator has seen enhancements, including a feature called "Watch Me Do."

WOW....that's one small thing but a GREAT one, that will make me use Automator SO much more ;)

Thank you :apple:

cwoloszynski
Mar 5, 2007, 07:18 AM
Have I missed something?

Where are the SECRET NEW features that Jobs hinted at. The ones he said he wouldn't reveal to avoid the photocopiers starting. Vista is out so why hide them now?

Surely brand new features need developer testing too.

What have I missed?

I think that the big secret will be Apple leveraging Airport Extreme with its new HDD USB port with the MirrorAgent from Tiger server to create the ability to backup your laptops wirelessly.

Apple knows that 'everyone' is moving to laptops and they also know that backups are a big gap in how people protect their information. I think that they are looking to create an IT-less home that has backups. Perhaps they will even support mobile accounts and use that HDD as the server volume for the home.

Just my speculation of features that are not revealed but within reach of Apple without a huge SW change at the last minute.

Chef Medeski
Mar 5, 2007, 07:27 AM
Automator looks good and the Watch Me Do feature sounds great.

Yeah that WMD looks sweet. I would have tons of fun making multiple WMDs.

weev
Mar 5, 2007, 07:37 AM
I am SO excited about Leopard.

I am like that chick in the front row when Gates unveiled Windoze 95.

Except I don't have the bouncy bouncy.

I guess I just have to wait for man-boobs.

Roy Hobbs
Mar 5, 2007, 07:42 AM
and who might your source be? june 15 isn't even a tuesday!

If I'm not mistaken I believe Tiger was released on a Friday

Ironduke
Mar 5, 2007, 07:53 AM
humm...
I might think the new octo-core MacPro will be announce at WWDC because of Leopard.

no use to most apple users then

wnurse
Mar 5, 2007, 07:58 AM
Why on Earth would Apple shoot themselves in the foot by doing that?

-OS does not work as seamlessly (have to make new drivers and everything from 3rd parties).
-Apple doesn't get a large profit, since all their money comes from hardware sales anyways.
-Everyone would buy cheap Dell boxes and put OS X on it instead of buying Apple hardware.

Terrible decision.

Didn't you get the memo?.. All the mac fanatics have been saying all along that macs are not more expensive than PC's (whenever of course someone like me points out to them why more people buy Dells than overpriced macs). You should get with the program (i have, after being reprogrammed). What cheap Dell boxes?. Macs are just as cheap!!!!!. (hold a minute, reprogramming wearing off.. i need another dosage of the mac fanaticism... I have to go now and quickly find the apple coolaid stored in the fridge somewhere.. hope i don't get distracted by the Jobs distortion reality field that just popped up).

mccoma
Mar 5, 2007, 08:02 AM
iCal goes ignored again, continuing to whither on the vine.

with what has been announce for 10.5 server - nope - it is getting some attention

mccoma
Mar 5, 2007, 08:14 AM
If that is true, then why are they bothering updating the interfaces for certain apps already? Automator has a new unified interface, iChat has a new interface. If there's really a new UI why bother spending time changing the UI of these apps if only to change it again before Lepard is released?

Well, I certainly can't say the exact reason, but I would suspect in order to implement the new interface in a clean and consistent manner, they could be updating all the applications to use the same user interface objects and settings. That way, they can switch out the old UI code for the new UI code. Most apps really don't care how a button is drawn as long as it is in the bounds laid out and has the right caption.

guzhogi
Mar 5, 2007, 08:22 AM
Yeah that WMD looks sweet. I would have tons of fun making multiple WMDs.

You may want to stop using that acronyms. Some idiot in the government might read that and think you're a terrorist. :p

What the hell is wrong with everyone? Why are there still stupid people who think Leopard is getting released soon? How can you be this retarded? Leopard won't be released until at least 4 weeks after WWDC, which is the first week of June. That means expect leopard in July.

I'll bet anyone $5,000.

Geeze everyone get your head out of your ass.

Apple is ABSOLUTELY NOT GOING TO COVER NEW FEATURES by just telling developers "Oh buy the way... Leopard is released today.. so if you don't have your apps ready, and haven't consulted a palm reader in advance to know about the final features that we ONLY first discussed and finalized today.. You are really screwed."

WWDC will be Steve announcing the finalized features (many aren't finalized with Xcode 3 even, and it's full of bugs) not to mention bout 30% of existing apps DO NOT work with Leopard, nor will a bunch of pre-existing apps.

I think people are so accustomed to having everything done now that they don't know how to be patient. Anyone remember the saying "If it ain't broken, don't fix it"? What's wrong w/ Tiger?

Diatribe
Mar 5, 2007, 08:57 AM
shared folders, thank you.

Yeah, that is pretty sweet. :)

Yeah, I've seen these feature additions before, but the features they're adding are like adding a heliport to the roof of a slum building. It might sound good if you're trying to sell the house to people who aren't familiar with the place, but to those who actually live there, they see how stupid and useless the new feature is when the ceilings are crumbling and there's no hot water.

iCal needs 2 areas of improvement before anything else - usability and interface! For instance, there is no way to time shift multiple events. Another is when you copy and paste several events with different calendar designations they all lose their original calendar designations, etc. etc.

Fixing the basics needs to come before adding new features!

I do have to agree with you. iCal needs some attention but is getting very little. It even got worse when they took out the tentative, etc. flags.
I think it's because Steve has his secretary fill it and has never seen iCal himself. :D

ortuno2k
Mar 5, 2007, 09:21 AM
I don't like the look of the GUI; reminds me of 10.2 or 10.3?
So far the improvements aren't very substantial. I'm still looking for more.

bryanc
Mar 5, 2007, 09:24 AM
Despite the naysayers, I expect to see Leopard announced during the WWDC keynote on June 11, and shipping June 20 (i.e. the last day of Spring). Despite the imminent release, and lack of "top secret features" in current developer builds, there will be some impressive new features that no one has seen. These will be largely user-oriented features that developers don't need to know about, and which don't break any backwards compatibility requirements, which is why they haven't been released in the developer builds so far.

My predictions for the secret features are:
1) A new Finder, written in Cocoa, and making heavy (but not tacky) use of core animation. It will maintain backwards compatibility with the existing finder library, so it shouldn't break any existing scripts.
2) A new theme - Illumnous - featuring back-lit windows with halos where Aqua has drop-shadows, a variety of new, resolution-independent widgets, and *no* brushed metal (but Aqua will remain available for those who want to keep it).
3) A variety of slick new features that allow better integration of digital hub components (?TV, iPhone, iPod) and .Mac integration.
4) Something that will surprise us all and make Vista look anemic.

Cheers

Chupa Chupa
Mar 5, 2007, 09:38 AM
Of course, all these rumours about Leopord being announced soon... they could well just point to an event were Jobs shows off the new features and announces the shipping date. Theres nothing to say that it will be out the day they hold a special event. Hearing that Leopard is still a while away from being ready just goes to confirm this.



Yep, I can't think of ANY Mac OS, going back to OS 7, that has been released the same day it was officially announced. Steve's promise, was that Leopard would ship by END of Spring (I'll give Apple mid June on the calendar end of spring, not the financial one). This is only the begining of March, so by any reasonable measure Apple still has 2.5 months to fiddle with Leopard before it needs to go GM. Moreover, it's typical Apple to ship later than sooner on almost everything. MacBook Pros last year, Apple TV this year. So many examples of Apple products shipping on the very last possible day.

chubad
Mar 5, 2007, 09:57 AM
AppleInsider just confirmed March 27th as the release date for Adobe CS 3.
With all of the Pros waiting to upgrade hardware, it would seem to me that at least a ship date for Leopard will be announced by then. If not, everyone will just keep waiting. Who want's to buy a new machine when you know a new OS will be shipping with it in a month or two. It would seem smart for Apple to announce and offer a free upgrade to Leopard with Macs bought after the announcement. That way sales would not be postponed. Apple has not done that in the past however so I'm not holding my breath.

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=2544

dongmin
Mar 5, 2007, 10:11 AM
AppleInsider just confirmed March 27th as the release date for Adobe CS 3.
With all of the Pros waiting to upgrade hardware, it would seem to me that at least a ship date for Leopard will be announced by then. If not, everyone will just keep waiting. Who want's to buy a new machine when you know a new OS will be shipping with it in a month or two. It would seem smart for Apple to announce and offer a free upgrade to Leopard with Macs bought after the announcement. That way sales would not be postponed. Apple has not done that in the past however so I'm not holding my breath.

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=2544
Well, something Apple has done in the past and they could do here is include a free Leopard upgrade coupon with all new Macs purchased after a certain date. Of course, this requires Apple to actually set an official date for the Leopard release and announce it. My hope is that Apple do a final show-and -tell of Leopard sometime in March/April for that announcement. That'll be the finalfeatures-freeze, and developers/testers can have a couple of months to iron out the bugs.

goosnarrggh
Mar 5, 2007, 10:22 AM
You're going to be waiting forever. It's a hardware problem.

Sorry to break the news to you.

Hum...
There are a few reasons why one couldn't use a MBP's Airport Extreme card in a PB to add 802.11n capabilities...
For one thing, the MBP's Airport Extreme card uses a PCIe bus interface, which isn't compatible with a PB.

For another thing, the Core 2 Duo MBP's Airport Extreme card requires has three antennas, and a PB only offers 2 antennas.

But I fail to see how those arguments would render a PB incapable of using *ANY* 802.11n hardware. The card referenced above, WLI-CB-AG300N, doesn't use the internal Airport slot, and it doesn't use the internal Airport antennas. It is a standard CardBus adaptor. It would plug into the PCMCIA slot on the side of any 15" or 17" PB, and it contains its own antenna.

The missing link then would simply be software to control it.

rfaulder
Mar 5, 2007, 10:26 AM
Didn't you get the memo?.. All the mac fanatics have been saying all along that macs are not more expensive than PC's (whenever of course someone like me points out to them why more people buy Dells than overpriced macs). You should get with the program (i have, after being reprogrammed). What cheap Dell boxes?. Macs are just as cheap!!!!!. (hold a minute, reprogramming wearing off.. i need another dosage of the mac fanaticism... I have to go now and quickly find the apple coolaid stored in the fridge somewhere.. hope i don't get distracted by the Jobs distortion reality field that just popped up).

Please go to a Best Buy and watch people buy computers. There are a lot who don't look at the $2000, $1000, or even $600 ones; they flock to the $350 el Cheapo's (http://www.e4me.com/products/catalog.html?type=desktops) that flood the market.

Apple computers are the same price as COMPARABLE machines, they do not make Bargain-Bin computers.


...Didn't you get the memo?

drewby
Mar 5, 2007, 10:27 AM
At this rate Vista will be stable enough to run life support systems before Leopard is announced.

:confused: :apple:

I can see it now!!!

Life support is failing. System wants to switch to back up -- Cancel or Allow?

Darkroom
Mar 5, 2007, 10:27 AM
I think it looks... messy. I dont like how they are mixing the old graphic assets with the new stuff. They should redesign everything, even if it's supposed to look like the old stuff. Hopefully this is placeholder for something awesome.

i agree... but i am glad to see their old graphic style in these images, as it's an obvious clue that the user interface with the current build is a temporary mask... i couldn't ever imagine a company like Apple, who are known for their new innovative and striking designs, to backtrack 5 years to rehash GUI excerpts from 10.1... i'm now convinced that there will be some obvious graphic updates with the user interface in 10.5.

Wild-Bill
Mar 5, 2007, 10:30 AM
What, do you operate a website that tracks Apple models and don't have anything to do? Products are updated when they're updated. Calling it unacceptable is a tad extreme. What would you like updated? Is there some other system out there shaming it? Last I checked, there haven't been any new Xeon processors yet, so there's not much to update.

Uhh.............. No, I don't matticus. Macrumors does this for us already, wiseguy. Perhaps you should direct your attention to the tab above that says "Buyer's Guide". Better yet, just click this: http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#Mac_Pro

No new Xeons? Ever heard of quad-core?? How about video cards? I am quite sure there are newer and better cards on the market than the X1900XT.

jwdsail
Mar 5, 2007, 10:43 AM
You're going to be waiting forever. It's a hardware problem.

Sorry to break the news to you.

Please elaborate...

What is the hardware problem in getting a PC card/Cardbus card with the same chipset as Apple uses internally to be seen as an Airport card, just as has been possible in the past???

For instance - Right now on a PowerBook G3/400 running MacOS X 10.4.8, which never had the orig. 802.11b AirPort card, am using the Buffalo b/g card. MacOS X 10.3 sees this as an AirPort Extreme g based card. No 3rd party drivers needed. "It just works". Plan on doing the same w/ my PB G4/550, just trying to decide between the g cards (few and far between/hard to find now) and trying out an N card and hoping that 10.5 offers some updated AirPort sw and support (even if some plist editing is needed) for cards like the WLI-CB-AG300N...

What hardware issue would prevent the same from being done with newer N cards?

It would seem to be a software issue as in the past on the surface.. Please elaborate as to the hardware issue.. You could save at least a few of us some cash, as I know I'm not the only one looking at this.

Thanks.


jwd

syriana
Mar 5, 2007, 10:51 AM
These will be largely user-oriented features that developers don't need to know about, and which don't break any backwards compatibility requirements, which is why they haven't been released in the developer builds so far.

My predictions for the secret features are:
1) A new Finder, written in Cocoa, and making heavy (but not tacky) use of core animation. It will maintain backwards compatibility with the existing finder library, so it shouldn't break any existing scripts.
2) A new theme - Illumnous - featuring back-lit windows with halos where Aqua has drop-shadows, a variety of new, resolution-independent widgets, and *no* brushed metal (but Aqua will remain available for those who want to keep it).
3) A variety of slick new features that allow better integration of digital hub components (?TV, iPhone, iPod) and .Mac integration.
4) Something that will surprise us all and make Vista look anemic.

Cheers

1) I sure hope you're right!
2) Debattable, some seems to think it is not possible due to "These will be largely user-oriented features that developers don't need to know about, and which don't break any backwards compatibility requirements, which is why they haven't been released in the developer builds so far."
3) Yes. And wireless timemachine on top of that.
4) Please :apple: let this be multitouch technology!!

sunfast
Mar 5, 2007, 10:52 AM
Hmmm. Looks like a bit more of a wait until Leopard. Shame that, because I'm off to the states pretty soon and was hoping to buy it there on the cheap!

Queso
Mar 5, 2007, 10:55 AM
AppleInsider just confirmed March 27th as the release date for Adobe CS 3.
With all of the Pros waiting to upgrade hardware, it would seem to me that at least a ship date for Leopard will be announced by then. If not, everyone will just keep waiting. Who want's to buy a new machine when you know a new OS will be shipping with it in a month or two.
The graphics pros couldn't give a toss about Leopard. They want CS3 as soon as possible. If anything, a lot of them would take the stable 10.4.9 over a possibly buggy 10.5.0, as long as it ran Intel-native Adobe software.

Georgie
Mar 5, 2007, 11:15 AM
Surely brand new features need developer testing too.

Hey, good point--no one has ever mentioned that before...

Maccus Aurelius
Mar 5, 2007, 11:15 AM
Didn't you get the memo?.. All the mac fanatics have been saying all along that macs are not more expensive than PC's (whenever of course someone like me points out to them why more people buy Dells than overpriced macs). You should get with the program (i have, after being reprogrammed). What cheap Dell boxes?. Macs are just as cheap!!!!!. (hold a minute, reprogramming wearing off.. i need another dosage of the mac fanaticism... I have to go now and quickly find the apple coolaid stored in the fridge somewhere.. hope i don't get distracted by the Jobs distortion reality field that just popped up).

Oh don't we love a good comedian? :rolleyes:

As said before, most who are in the market for a computer but are not concerned about how low one can go in terms of overall quality and spec are going to most likely purchase that $300 desktop or $500 laptop computer. These PC v Mac price wars are ludicrous. I'd much rather pay the $2,000 for a macbook pro than the $1,000 more for a Dell high end laptop.

As for this OS clamoring, I don't see the big deal in waiting a bit longer. My macbook will be in its first year of ownership come May, and I'm quite happy with the performance of Tiger so far. When Leopard is finally released I won't be one of those people first on line to get a copy. Instead I'll just test out demo macs in the Apple stores and try out the new OS and keep watch of hitches n' bugs posted. For what you get now Tiger is fantastic. It's not like we're all suffering here.

Hell, Vista took 5 years to roll off the line while XP grew positively stale. Apple at least provided some healthy upgrades in that time, although nothing spectacular. But really, why do people need to be wowed by OS's anymore? I think it's vastly better to just get good practical upgrades that, while not being supercalafragalistic, still one-up its predecessors.

theheadguy
Mar 5, 2007, 11:18 AM
Synced stickies. Yesss! :cool:
Glad I'm not the only one excited about this!

Maccus Aurelius
Mar 5, 2007, 11:21 AM
I'm with everyone else that wants an improved iCal. These sorts of things are what really make the OS really great to use. I use iCal daily, and I even turn my macbook into an alarm clock. :p

SiliconAddict
Mar 5, 2007, 11:32 AM
haha no it wont, as long as it runs on microsoft's kernal it will never be stable

Fanbois, gotta love em...oh wait. No I don't. :rolleyes:

Telp. You sir, are full of crap. My home server running Windows Server 2003 has been up over a year now. My desktop running Win XP gets rebooted once every 2-3 months for patches. In point of fact my C2DMBP freezes\crashes more often then my desktop ever does. The last instance being a flash site in Firefox freezing my system up on 2/17. so please...Don't try telling me OS X is so dang stable. It isn't.

gctwnl
Mar 5, 2007, 11:36 AM
What SO wrong with Tiger?

Having to spend $500 on OS X Server just months before the next version comes out and thus having to spend another $500 to upgrade?

Same for OS X but with a price tag of $129?

I am waiting for Leopard Server before a) investing in my next OS X Server upgrade and b) investing in new hardware. Given that Leopard was `announced' at WWDC 2006, it has been a long wait and my 10.3 Server is due for a replacement.

G

SiliconAddict
Mar 5, 2007, 11:40 AM
I'm with everyone else that wants an improved iCal. These sorts of things are what really make the OS really great to use. I use iCal daily, and I even turn my macbook into an alarm clock. :p

Forget iCal. I want an all in one PIM. E-mail\Contacts\Calendar\todos all in one App. This is why I'm running Outlook 2003 under Crossover. Needing to switch back and forth between apps should have ended years ago. All of these apps bleed into one another in terms of what you use them for. You simply shouldn't have to deal with window management for such things. There is no reason to not have these apps integrated. Check that there is one reason: to make the OS look like its shipping with more apps, and as such its OMG! such a deal. Which it already is. Slimming it down wouldn't hurt the value IMHO.

lintaimi
Mar 5, 2007, 11:48 AM
Ok, I apologize first if this posting doesn't belong this thread. For the MacRumors editors/regulators: if it doesn't, please tell me or just put this posting to the right thread. Thank you very much.

Anyways, my question is, I heard that Leopard is going to base on/merge with UNIX coding, is that true? Because I sometimes use SAS program for work, and since I just got a new MBP and SAS compatible with all the other OS but Mac's. I'm wondering if anyone knows the new Leopard with UNIX coding will enable me to install SAS directly in OS X environment, instead of I need to partition my HD and put Vista on my MBP. Thanks so much for anyone's help and responds.

gctwnl
Mar 5, 2007, 11:48 AM
iCal needs some attention but is getting very little. It even got worse when they took out the tentative, etc. flags.
I think it's because Steve has his secretary fill it and has never seen iCal himself. :D

iCal is broken, if you ask me. The idea of having multiple calendars instead of multiple categories is plain wrong. If I want stuff where people can see I'm engaged so they can actually use my calendar but not what I am doing (i.e. private meetings) I have to make two calendars in iCal and people have to subvscribe to both. But what others need is a subscription to the total 'me, not broken up in all these separate calendars. Actually, here the basic idea is wrong. I as a person have only one time schedule with possible overlapping appointments, some private, some public.

iCal's inability to handle private meetings in a decent way has stopped me from using it altogether.

G

Nym
Mar 5, 2007, 11:57 AM
Having to spend $500 on OS X Server just months before the next version comes out and thus having to spend another $500 to upgrade?

Same for OS X but with a price tag of $129?

I am waiting for Leopard Server before a) investing in my next OS X Server upgrade and b) investing in new hardware. Given that Leopard was `announced' at WWDC 2006, it has been a long wait and my 10.3 Server is due for a replacement.

G

Humm? Didn't quite understand if you where agreeing or disagreeing with what I said :)

If I didn't own Tiger already I would wait for Leopard too, it makes no sense to buy an OS when you know that an upgrade is just around the corner, if that's what you're saying then I agree with you.

As of now no one know what Apple has up their sleeve, but we are used to get blown away by their stuff so I guess patience will reward us.

Peace
Mar 5, 2007, 11:58 AM
The graphics pros couldn't give a toss about Leopard. They want CS3 as soon as possible. If anything, a lot of them would take the stable 10.4.9 over a possibly buggy 10.5.0, as long as it ran Intel-native Adobe software.

People should realize Adobe wouldn't be releasing the new UB CS3 unless they knew full well it ran on Leopard..


Think about that..

goosnarrggh
Mar 5, 2007, 12:10 PM
Ok, I apologize first if this posting doesn't belong this thread. For the MacRumors editors/regulators: if it doesn't, please tell me or just put this posting to the right thread. Thank you very much.

Anyways, my question is, I heard that Leopard is going to base on/merge with UNIX coding, is that true? Because I sometimes use SAS program for work, and since I just got a new MBP and SAS compatible with all the other OS but Mac's. I'm wondering if anyone knows the new Leopard with UNIX coding will enable me to install SAS directly in OS X environment, instead of I need to partition my HD and put Vista on my MBP. Thanks so much for anyone's help and responds.

MacOS X has always had a hybrid kernel based partially on BSD. In that sense, it's had a UNIX heritage built in since day one. Many pieces of the BSD operating environment, GCC, and the X windows system, are all either built-in to the system or else available through your OSX installation DVD.

In Leopard, Apple has said that it intended to apply for official UNIX certification. I'm not sure how much would need to change internally to meet that definition.

Diatribe
Mar 5, 2007, 12:18 PM
Glad I'm not the only one excited about this! (synced Stickies)


Where do you guys see sticky syncing? And I guess even if it would sync stickies, the more important thing would be being able to access them online. Now that'd be sweet.

Diatribe
Mar 5, 2007, 12:21 PM
iCal is broken, if you ask me. The idea of having multiple calendars instead of multiple categories is plain wrong. If I want stuff where people can see I'm engaged so they can actually use my calendar but not what I am doing (i.e. private meetings) I have to make two calendars in iCal and people have to subvscribe to both. But what others need is a subscription to the total 'me, not broken up in all these separate calendars. Actually, here the basic idea is wrong. I as a person have only one time schedule with possible overlapping appointments, some private, some public.

iCal's inability to handle private meetings in a decent way has stopped me from using it altogether.

G

I agree on the private meetings but at least you can publish folders of more calendars, so at least you don't have 5 separate calendars to publish. But yeah private and public events cannot be handled in a nice way unfortunately.

Manic Mouse
Mar 5, 2007, 01:03 PM
People should realize Adobe wouldn't be releasing the new UB CS3 unless they knew full well it ran on Leopard..


Think about that..

Meaning that Leopard would be out, or at least in it's final stages of development by the time CS3 is released?

morespce54
Mar 5, 2007, 01:07 PM
Yeah, that is pretty sweet. :)



I do have to agree with you. iCal needs some attention but is getting very little. It even got worse when they took out the tentative, etc. flags.
I think it's because Steve has his secretary fill it and has never seen iCal himself. :D

...or because he keep using Entourage ;) :)

akac
Mar 5, 2007, 01:09 PM
Well, I certainly can't say the exact reason, but I would suspect in order to implement the new interface in a clean and consistent manner, they could be updating all the applications to use the same user interface objects and settings. That way, they can switch out the old UI code for the new UI code. Most apps really don't care how a button is drawn as long as it is in the bounds laid out and has the right caption.

Not only that, but all it seems to me they did was uncheck the "Metal" checkbox in the NIB. No code changes to the UI.

Maccus Aurelius
Mar 5, 2007, 01:11 PM
Forget iCal. I want an all in one PIM. E-mail\Contacts\Calendar\todos all in one App. This is why I'm running Outlook 2003 under Crossover. Needing to switch back and forth between apps should have ended years ago. All of these apps bleed into one another in terms of what you use them for. You simply shouldn't have to deal with window management for such things. There is no reason to not have these apps integrated. Check that there is one reason: to make the OS look like its shipping with more apps, and as such its OMG! such a deal. Which it already is. Slimming it down wouldn't hurt the value IMHO.

IM and e-mail are the things I'd love to have integrated. AOL software and the AIM client stink I much prefer iChat for messaging. If it allowed me to check my mail through that software on that same sn that would be sweet.

akac
Mar 5, 2007, 01:17 PM
Yeah, that is pretty sweet. :)



I do have to agree with you. iCal needs some attention but is getting very little. It even got worse when they took out the tentative, etc. flags.
I think it's because Steve has his secretary fill it and has never seen iCal himself. :D


I have tentative and busy flags - but only for meetings.

Peace
Mar 5, 2007, 01:19 PM
Meaning that Leopard would be out, or at least in it's final stages of development by the time CS3 is released?

BINGO!!

We have a winner! :)

Manic Mouse
Mar 5, 2007, 01:20 PM
BINGO!!

We have a winner! :)

I can only hope. I've been waiting for Leopard before I get my first ever Mac. :D

Exciting times!

DMann
Mar 5, 2007, 01:47 PM
whow! I can see a lot of people could use a chill pill :D

Seriously? Are we that desperate for a new OS? What SO wrong with Tiger? I for one will gladly wait until June if that means a clean, stable 10.5.0.

As of now I'm happy with Tiger, I can say that I'm waiting more for 10.4.9 than 10.5.0 :)
As for the top-secret features, I don't really know, usually Apple blows our minds with stuff we never thought about so I wouldn't say that the secret features that Jobs refered in WWDC 06 are a bunch of crap, I just don't bother trying to imagine what they are.

One thing I really want to see in Leopard is how Apple is giving use to Core Animation, I'd like do see folders and files flipping around (like dashboard widgets) to set their preferences, maybe the first introduction to 3d elements in the desktop, something different you know?


As for the release date... I don't have a clue, no one does, and ultimately that's my point, all predictions can be right or wrong ( although some seem more right than others, my vote goes to June ).

Core Animation may be the catalyst for dozens of new features involving a revamped Finder, 3D view options for folders and apps, retrieval, etc. This would be easy to activate within the GUI once it is implemented within the Finder.

inkswamp
Mar 5, 2007, 02:17 PM
And all those people expecting to see a new Finder or a new Interface, explain to me this:

If that is true, then why are they bothering updating the interfaces for certain apps already? Automator has a new unified interface, iChat has a new interface. If there's really a new UI why bother spending time changing the UI of these apps if only to change it again before Lepard is released?

Some applications have interface designs independent of the Finder and the system-wide UI. I'm not sure why but that seems to be the case. That's actually pretty obvious when you look at the iApps, but there may be other reasons. Also, Apple has been known to tweak around with their own applications to experiment with different looks. Sometimes those experiments turn into elements of the general UI. They did that with Quicktime back in the OS 9 era and iTunes more recently.

Same thing goes for the Finder, why bother adding new features to the old Finder if there's going to be a new one? what exactly is the point? Are the trying to fool developers into thinking that the current Finder will be getting a few new prefs, only to pull the rug out from their feet and announce a new secret Finder?

I really don't think they' do that.

Have you ever done software development on a Mac? I'm not trying to be condescending, but if you haven't, then I can understand that this might seem mysterious to you.

Keep this in mind: the Finder is just another OS X application. It runs a little more seamlessly than other apps and it can (in some situations) get into the internals of your machine unlike other apps, but overall, it's just another application. Many of the features it gives the user access to are below the surface and not really part of the Finder per se. If a new feature were created in the guts of the OS, a developer could add a menu item or quickie interface to access it in a matter of minutes. This is a trivial thing to add.

Thus far, I haven't seen any major features added to the Finder, but rather a lot of minor changes. The fact that we're seeing minor alterations to the Finder but no major changes or features added actually seems to point to the idea that a new Finder is sitting in the wings. I admit that I could be wrong and I have no insider info, but just seeing a few new prefs or menu items added to the Finder doesn't mean anything. Literally, you can add those kinds of things without writing a single line of code.

And remember that some of those features being added "below the surface" would be to be tested by beta-testers and developers so adding them to the current Finder makes sense anyway.

BigHat
Mar 5, 2007, 02:19 PM
[QUOTE=zblaxberg;3413077]Vista could have their next os out before apple releases leopard at this point

QUOTE]

You're on crack. Apple isn't even late yet from the initial comments made by Steve. Vista is THREE OR MORE YEARS LATE in coming and it's a POS. What's the next Vista OS? The one that allows you to run MS Office w/o crashing?

Mgkwho
Mar 5, 2007, 02:23 PM
Yes, Photoshop CS3 should be expected to run well on Leopard.

But remember, many other developers have copies of Leopard so they can also build their applications for it. This doesn't necessarily mean that CS3 will coincide with Leopard's release...though we all wish it were likely! :D

-=|Mgkwho

Diatribe
Mar 5, 2007, 02:26 PM
I have tentative and busy flags - but only for meetings.

Well, I don't want to have to send a mail to have the flags. :(

Peace
Mar 5, 2007, 02:31 PM
Yes, Photoshop CS3 should be expected to run well on Leopard.

But remember, many other developers have copies of Leopard so they can also build their applications for it. This doesn't necessarily mean that CS3 will coincide with Leopard's release...though we all wish it were likely! :D

-=|Mgkwho

I can almost guarantee you Adobe has a copy of the internal beta of Leopard.The one that ADC members do not have.
The one Woz speaks of.The one that has all the "secret stuff"..The one that is a lot more stable than the current one floating around the BitTorrent sites now.

And folks wonder why that version hasn't been given to the ADC.

There is hardware coming out that utilizes Leopard and Steve will announce that hardware when he sees fit.

1 piece of that hardware is already out.And another is supposed to be out March 20th.This the ONLY reason 9a377a was released to ADC members.

DMann
Mar 5, 2007, 02:45 PM
Keep this in mind: the Finder is just another OS X application. It runs a little more seamlessly than other apps and it can (in some situations) get into the internals of your machine unlike other apps, but overall, it's just another application. Many of the features it gives the user access to are below the surface and not really part of the Finder per se. If a new feature were created in the guts of the OS, a developer could add a menu item or quickie interface to access it in a matter of minutes. This is a trivial thing to add.

Thus far, I haven't seen any major features added to the Finder, but rather a lot of minor changes. The fact that we're seeing minor alterations to the Finder but no major changes or features added actually seems to point to the idea that a new Finder is sitting in the wings. I admit that I could be wrong and I have no insider info, but just seeing a few new prefs or menu items added to the Finder doesn't mean anything. Literally, you can add those kinds of things without writing a single line of code.

And remember that some of those features being added "below the surface" would be to be tested by beta-testers and developers so adding them to the current Finder makes sense anyway.

Quite true, look at Pathfinder - a Mac OS alternative which happens to be an application. The functions of the Finder do not usually interfere with the operation of coexisting apps, so then, the Finder ought to "play nice" with running apps regardless of any alterations made to it before release.

DMann
Mar 5, 2007, 03:00 PM
Yes, Photoshop CS3 should be expected to run well on Leopard.

But remember, many other developers have copies of Leopard so they can also build their applications for it. This doesn't necessarily mean that CS3 will coincide with Leopard's release...though we all wish it were likely! :D

-=|Mgkwho

And wish we do......:rolleyes:

Project
Mar 5, 2007, 03:16 PM
I can almost guarantee you Adobe has a copy of the internal beta of Leopard.The one that ADC members do not have.
The one Woz speaks of.The one that has all the "secret stuff"..The one that is a lot more stable than the current one floating around the BitTorrent sites now.

And folks wonder why that version hasn't been given to the ADC.

There is hardware coming out that utilizes Leopard and Steve will announce that hardware when he sees fit.

1 piece of that hardware is already out.And another is supposed to be out March 20th.This the ONLY reason 9a377a was released to ADC members.


Whats this you say about Woz? Link?

Peace
Mar 5, 2007, 03:18 PM
Whats this you say about Woz? Link?

linky (http://twitter.com/stevewozniak/statuses/5854151)

BoyBach
Mar 5, 2007, 03:21 PM
Looks good to me.

Project
Mar 5, 2007, 03:24 PM
Damn.... Woz just made my day

kalisphoenix
Mar 5, 2007, 03:25 PM
linky (http://twitter.com/stevewozniak/statuses/5854151)

Mmm... pwnage.

psychofreak
Mar 5, 2007, 03:27 PM
Damn.... Woz just made my day

Me too...wonder how I hadn't found that treat before...

Project
Mar 5, 2007, 03:31 PM
So what is this tactic of putting out spoof/old builds of Leopard by Apple? Disinformation?

Interesting times.

BTW
Mar 5, 2007, 03:39 PM
Why on Earth would Apple shoot themselves in the foot by doing that?

-OS does not work as seamlessly (have to make new drivers and everything from 3rd parties).
-Apple doesn't get a large profit, since all their money comes from hardware sales anyways.
-Everyone would buy cheap Dell boxes and put OS X on it instead of buying Apple hardware.

Terrible decision.

1) Hence the beta status at WWDC where there are developers willing to write drivers.
2) Yes, that's an old argument. The iPod and iPhone make them a lot of dough so now is the time to make a grab for high margin software sales.
3) Sure, and Apple would make $100 a pop off of each OEM installation and $299 off of the retail box (of course they'd charge more for the open version!). :D

BTW
Mar 5, 2007, 03:41 PM
Funny how Apple hasn't been working with ANY hardware manufacturers to make this even remotely possible. I guess they've started using dark magic over in Cupertino.


It wouldn't be the first time now would it? WWDC will release the beta and give hardware manufacturers some time. :)

Peace
Mar 5, 2007, 03:59 PM
So what is this tactic of putting out spoof/old builds of Leopard by Apple? Disinformation?

Interesting times.

Makes for great drama don't it ? ;)

BobbyDigital
Mar 5, 2007, 04:06 PM
The "watch me do" feature sounds like it will make things alot easier. Not sure about the new layout of spotlight, I like the old way... but this one will probably grow on me.

BobbyDigital
Mar 5, 2007, 04:08 PM
linky (http://twitter.com/stevewozniak/statuses/5854151)

what a tease...

Yupper3D
Mar 5, 2007, 04:17 PM
We'll I've been lurking this forum for a while now reading up on the rumors and such and I don't think it has helped much. I guess itís the very nature of rumors, but I've been getting very disappointed with the lack of reliable information about the release of 10.5. I don't believe this is this site's fault, I think it is a side-effect of the very little information about 10.5 Apple has released since the original presentation in August of last year.

I use Windows at home and Linux at work and I've been anxiously waiting (and saving) for 10.5 to come out and "do the switch" ever since the announcement in August.

I've been tempted to buy my MacBook (high-end white) already many times without waiting for 10.5 to come out, but I eventually decide to wait. I want my new Mac to come factory-installed with 10.5 along with 10.5 restore disks, and iLife '07, etc.

Problem is, I heard the MacBooks will take about a month after Leopard's release to begin shipping with the new OS :( And as much I would love to have my new Mac soon, I believe Apple will take until the end of spring to release Leopard. If that's June, that means that the earliest I can do the switch would be mid to end of July of 2007. Oh well, I guess I should stop reading so many rumors and focus on other things until July comes around...

Also, I just went to an Apple store and asked the first salesperson that came to see if I needed any help: "Yes, I'm looking for the 12" sub-notebook MacBook Pro" The guy just smiled and said, well that's a rumor so I can't say anything about it. :apple:

Antares
Mar 5, 2007, 04:19 PM
If Apple finally updates the Screensaver Prefence Panes, that's reason enough to buy Leopard.

DMann
Mar 5, 2007, 04:19 PM
what a tease...

If this is a genuine Twitter post from Woz, this may perhaps foreshadow and confirm some truly "insanely great" features, especially, coming from someone who has been rarely jazzed about anything which has either surfaced or been announced during the past twenty years.

Project
Mar 5, 2007, 04:24 PM
Makes for great drama don't it ? ;)


Certainly does, my friend.

DMann
Mar 5, 2007, 04:28 PM
We'll I've been lurking this forum for a while now reading up on the rumors and such and I don't think it has helped much. I guess itís the very nature of rumors, but I've been getting very disappointed with the lack of reliable information about the release of 10.5. I don't believe this is this site's fault, I think it is a side-effect of the very little information about 10.5 Apple has released since the original presentation in August of last year.

I use Windows at home and Linux at work and I've been anxiously waiting (and saving) for 10.5 to come out and "do the switch" ever since the announcement in August.

I've been tempted to buy my MacBook (high-end white) already many times without waiting for 10.5 to come out, but I eventually decide to wait. I want my new Mac to come factory-installed with 10.5 along with 10.5 restore disks, and iLife '07, etc.

Problem is, I heard the MacBooks will take about a month after Leopard's release to begin shipping with the new OS :( And as much I would love to have my new Mac soon, I believe Apple will take until the end of spring to release Leopard. If that's June, that means that the earliest I can do the switch would be mid to end of July of 2007. Oh well, I guess I should stop reading so many rumors and focus on other things until July comes around...

Also, I just went to an Apple store and asked the first salesperson that came to see if I needed any help: "Yes, I'm looking for the 12" sub-notebook MacBook Pro" The guy just smiled and said, well that's a rumor so I can't say anything about it. :apple:

Very likely, it will be worth the wait. I don't believe what you heard about it taking a month for new MacBooks to ship with Leopard installed. Historically, new OS's have been pre-installed in new machines shipping a few days after a software release. If not, Apple offered free upgrade certificates for any machine purchased after the release. As soon as Leopard is released, your new machine will qualify.:)

Diatribe
Mar 5, 2007, 04:38 PM
If Apple finally updates the Screensaver Prefence Panes, that's reason enough to buy Leopard.

A little cynical, are we? :D

marktesssing
Mar 5, 2007, 05:19 PM
We'll I've been lurking this forum for a while now reading up on the rumors and such and I don't think it has helped much. I guess itís the very nature of rumors, but I've been getting very disappointed with the lack of reliable information about the release of 10.5. I don't believe this is this site's fault, I think it is a side-effect of the very little information about 10.5 Apple has released since the original presentation in August of last year.

I use Windows at home and Linux at work and I've been anxiously waiting (and saving) for 10.5 to come out and "do the switch" ever since the announcement in August.

I've been tempted to buy my MacBook (high-end white) already many times without waiting for 10.5 to come out, but I eventually decide to wait. I want my new Mac to come factory-installed with 10.5 along with 10.5 restore disks, and iLife '07, etc.

Problem is, I heard the MacBooks will take about a month after Leopard's release to begin shipping with the new OS :( And as much I would love to have my new Mac soon, I believe Apple will take until the end of spring to release Leopard. If that's June, that means that the earliest I can do the switch would be mid to end of July of 2007. Oh well, I guess I should stop reading so many rumors and focus on other things until July comes around...

Also, I just went to an Apple store and asked the first salesperson that came to see if I needed any help: "Yes, I'm looking for the 12" sub-notebook MacBook Pro" The guy just smiled and said, well that's a rumor so I can't say anything about it. :apple:

also waiting until santa rosa come out before getting my first mac, so my wait might be longer. I just have a feeling new designs all-around is coming soon. on the new laptops I expect multi-touch trackpad replacement.

Yupper3D
Mar 5, 2007, 05:24 PM
also waiting until santa rosa come out before getting my first mac, so my wait might be longer. I just have a feeling new designs all-around is coming soon. on the new laptops I expect multi-touch trackpad replacement.

Hmmm... Multi-touch trackpads would be totally awesome! Imagine zooming in on images or google maps just like you do on the iPhone, but for any application! Also, touch gestures would be super cool (save, close, print, etc) :apple:

hircus
Mar 5, 2007, 05:41 PM
If it's a new Finder (and that's where my money is) it's likely that's when we'll see the new UI, new features (tabbed windows), and faster file access. I tend to think that's the most likely thing as we've seen virtually no change the in Finder in the leaked screenshots and I can't think of a release of OS X that didn't have significant changes to the Finder.


First post here, from a three-time Mac owner currently Mac-less (sold my iBook before the Core 2 Macbooks came out, and figured I might as well wait for the next iteration -- 45nm CPUs and flash caches!)

If they do replace Finder, I hope it has improved reliability for accessing network shares (whether SMB or WebDAV -- I've never tried connecting to an AFP share, but I trust for that at least Finder is stable).

Mr. Dee
Mar 5, 2007, 05:43 PM
Yes, Photoshop CS3 should be expected to run well on Leopard.

But remember, many other developers have copies of Leopard so they can also build their applications for it. This doesn't necessarily mean that CS3 will coincide with Leopard's release...though we all wish it were likely! :D

-=|Mgkwho

...and that's why I said in close proximity. Which could mean, CS3, mid April, Leopard, early May.

inkswamp
Mar 5, 2007, 06:39 PM
If they do replace Finder, I hope it has improved reliability for accessing network shares (whether SMB or WebDAV -- I've never tried connecting to an AFP share, but I trust for that at least Finder is stable).

I didn't even delve into its performance. I use Windows XP and Mac OS X about 50-50 at work and I'd be lying through my teeth if I didn't say that Windows Explorer really kicks the Finder's *ss. Every aspect of OS X is great except that. It's a glaring gaffe in an otherwise beautifully designed operating system. Even if we had no hints one way or the other, I think assuming that an improved Finder is on its way would be perfectly reasonable. The Finder is truly wretched in terms of performance when set side-by-side with Windows Explorer. Believe me, I hate typing that. I wish it wasn't true.

It would be very hard for me to believe that someone at Apple hasn't decided it's time to address the Finder's shortcomings. At one time, it was merely annoying. By now, it's bordering on unacceptable.

matticus008
Mar 5, 2007, 06:41 PM
Didn't you get the memo?.. All the mac fanatics have been saying all along that macs are not more expensive than PC's (whenever of course someone like me points out to them why more people buy Dells than overpriced macs)
Macs are not more expensive than equivalent PCs. That doesn't mean that there aren't PCs that are both cheaper and more expensive than Macs--there are only a handful of Apple models.

When you go to the store, do you laugh because people pay $15 for Bertolli when you've walked away with some nice $4 Wesson? Yes, they're both oils, but they're not equivalent and they're not good for the same uses. If you're comparing olives to olives in this case, there might be some store brand for $13.50 and some Berio for $16. The Bertolli's not overpriced.
Uhh.............. No, I don't matticus. Macrumors does this for us already, wiseguy.
Yeah, we know. I was making fun of your indignation and outrage over triviality.
No new Xeons? Ever heard of quad-core?? How about video cards? I am quite sure there are newer and better cards on the market than the X1900XT.
When has a Mac ever been updated just because of a video card? (Hint: never). There's no rush for more cores--if you actually need 8 cores right now, then feel free to buy some OEM Xeons from Newegg and drop them in. Apple isn't going to jump through your hoop every month because of a minor change in hardware availability. They're not a standard PC manufacturer. It's not unusual for there to be 9 month update intervals.
It wouldn't be the first time now would it? WWDC will release the beta and give hardware manufacturers some time. :)
No. Just no. There's an almost immeasurably huge difference between those scenarios. You can't launch a product for a market that huge without your product actually working on any of it--it's illegal, not to mention abysmally stupid.

Mgkwho
Mar 5, 2007, 06:41 PM
Well Mr. Dee, I think we almost all can agree that Leopard will be released in Spring!! :D



Yay Woz!

-=|Mgkwho

DMann
Mar 5, 2007, 06:48 PM
Well Mr. Dee, I think we almost all can agree that Leopard will be released in Spring!! :D



Yay Woz!

-=|Mgkwho

Spring..........on the Northern, or Southern hemisphere?

matticus008
Mar 5, 2007, 06:51 PM
Spring..........on the Northern, or Southern hemisphere?
Northern. I don't understand why this is an issue. It's as ridiculous as the 10.4.10 "debate."

Leopard is scheduled for an (American/northern hemisphere) Spring release. That means, quite literally, that the release date will fall between March 21st and June 20th. None of this iffy "I think Spring has started" nonsense--seasons have defined dates. Companies don't make date predictions based on what the weather is like outside. They use a calendar.

Mgkwho
Mar 5, 2007, 07:10 PM
Northern. I don't understand why this is an issue. It's as ridiculous as the 10.4.10 "debate."


Oh really? I actually meant the Southern.

-=|Mgkwho

hircus
Mar 5, 2007, 07:12 PM
Even if we had no hints one way or the other, I think assuming that an improved Finder is on its way would be perfectly reasonable.
Except that, as you said below, the Finder issues have been there for a long time and they still have not fixed it. I'm going to still be disappointed if they don't fix it this time, but I'll actually be quite excited if they do -- setting the bar low there.

It would be very hard for me to believe that someone at Apple hasn't decided it's time to address the Finder's shortcomings. At one time, it was merely annoying. By now, it's bordering on unacceptable.

Thankfully, there's now MacFUSE (http://code.google.com/p/macfuse/)!

Mgkwho
Mar 5, 2007, 07:32 PM
I think having a working finder is almost essential for Windows switchers, because they will have become so accustomed to simple navigation (e.g. the "up" folder hierarchy option, backspace moves back, etc.) that not having it will be so frustrating they will give up.

As a recent, official switcher myself, if I had lower tolerance of finder I would probably not be using os x. But because I've grown up with both, I know what eachother offers, and am comfortable enough to navigate around both.

But seriously, freaking fix finder already!!!!!!!!!!

-=|Mgkwho

Project
Mar 5, 2007, 07:36 PM
There is no Up button in Vista.

Im a fairly recent switcher, and love column view. Sure, Finder has its annoyances, but finding files quickly isnt one of them.

DMann
Mar 5, 2007, 07:40 PM
Northern. I don't understand why this is an issue. It's as ridiculous as the 10.4.10 "debate."

Leopard is scheduled for an (American/northern hemisphere) Spring release. That means, quite literally, that the release date will fall between March 21st and June 20th. None of this iffy "I think Spring has started" nonsense--seasons have defined dates. Companies don't make date predictions based on what the weather is like outside. They use a calendar.

Well, you know, with global warming and all, the definition of when Spring actually occurs might have to be re-established.....

matticus008
Mar 5, 2007, 07:44 PM
Well, you know, with global warming and all, the definition of when Spring actually occurs might have to be re-established.....
The definition of seasons is based on the orbital position of the planet and the timing of the equinoxes, not on any terrestrial weather conditions. Global warming wouldn't change anything. California enjoys spring-like weather from January onward--even if the whole planet was like that, Spring would still be March 20/21 to June 20/21.

DMann
Mar 5, 2007, 07:57 PM
The definition of seasons is based on the orbital position of the planet and the timing of the equinoxes, not on any terrestrial weather conditions. Global warming wouldn't change anything. California enjoys spring-like weather from January onward--even if the whole planet was like that, Spring would still be March 20/21 to June 20/21.

This we know, but on a serious note; since Al Gore has become a board member, he's been calling several extra board meetings, regarding seasons, climate, etc., and these heated debates, alone, may have indirectly contributed to the ultimate delay of the release of the Gold Master.......:confused:

SiliconAddict
Mar 5, 2007, 08:05 PM
I didn't even delve into its performance. I use Windows XP and Mac OS X about 50-50 at work and I'd be lying through my teeth if I didn't say that Windows Explorer really kicks the Finder's *ss. Every aspect of OS X is great except that. It's a glaring gaffe in an otherwise beautifully designed operating system. Even if we had no hints one way or the other, I think assuming that an improved Finder is on its way would be perfectly reasonable. The Finder is truly wretched in terms of performance when set side-by-side with Windows Explorer. Believe me, I hate typing that. I wish it wasn't true.

It would be very hard for me to believe that someone at Apple hasn't decided it's time to address the Finder's shortcomings. At one time, it was merely annoying. By now, it's bordering on unacceptable.

Testify brother! Testify! they don't call it FTFF for nothing. That being said I fear that all Apple is going to do is slap on Spotlight integration to this lumbering monstrosity, and call it revolutionary, new, and improved.
Never mind the fact that I had several people smiling at me, amused last night as I was demoing Tiger and the finder froze on me for 3 minutes because I forgot to disconnect the share from my home network before leaving home with my MBP. Calling finder a joke is being kind. :mad:

hmo8020
Mar 5, 2007, 08:33 PM
linky (http://twitter.com/stevewozniak/statuses/5854151)

isnt woz livin' in NZ? :confused:

DMann
Mar 5, 2007, 08:36 PM
isnt woz livin' in NZ? :confused:

Last I heard.....

motulist
Mar 5, 2007, 08:51 PM
FYI, the people who don't like the finder are a very vocal minority, most Mac users think it's great.

Peace
Mar 5, 2007, 09:03 PM
I believe Twitter is a cell phone sms type thing.
Can be done from anywhere.

DMann
Mar 5, 2007, 09:18 PM
FYI, the people who don't like the finder are a very vocal minority, most Mac users think it's great.

They should use Pathfinder and complain less....... Although the Finder would be greatly improved with tabbed windows, a memory of view preferences, and a unified theme, it functions well enough for easy and simple navigation. Leopard will most likely breathe new life into it, and bring on enhancements in style. :)

hircus
Mar 6, 2007, 12:06 AM
They should use Pathfinder and complain less....... Although the Finder would be greatly improved with tabbed windows, a memory of view preferences, and a unified theme, it functions well enough for easy and simple navigation. Leopard will most likely breathe new life into it, and bring on enhancements in style. :)

Sure, if it's just an interface issue, people who complain would probably be better served using replacement file managers. But when network file system support is broken it does reflect badly on the OS as a whole (see the post in the previous page about Finder freezing because of a network share becoming unavailable. That, I remember well from the last time I used Tiger)

Done-on-a-Mac
Mar 6, 2007, 03:00 AM
I don't mind the wait for 10.5. I got my first Mac(last of the 20in G5 iMac) in Dec. 05 as a Christmas gift. I use to be a "want it now!" person so I got into doing beta testing just to "have it now", and it sucks. The bugs/crashes/even reinstalling my os(PC) was enough.

Besides I will grad. from college in Dec. 07 and will buy a new fully-loaded iMac at that point. 10.5 will have been out for a while and any major bugs will have been addressed by then. When it comes out you'll love it.

- Scott

inkswamp
Mar 6, 2007, 04:11 AM
FYI, the people who don't like the finder are a very vocal minority, most Mac users think it's great.

You have some statistics to back that claim up? :rolleyes:

I know lots of Mac users and most of them hate the Finder and how slow and eccentric (to put it nicely) it is. A lot of its problems don't start to show up until you're using a Mac in a professional environment, dealing with thousands of files and many servers. Then things start to get ugly. So even if "most Mac users think it's great", most of them are probably not using it in that situation and therefore don't see the not-so-great side to it.

Anyway, it hardly matters. You only need to use Windows Explorer and then the Finder to compare and see it for yourself. It doesn't matter how many people are (or are not) complaining. It's an easily observable fact that the Finder needs serious improvement.

matticus008
Mar 6, 2007, 05:44 AM
Anyway, it hardly matters. You only need to use Windows Explorer and then the Finder to compare and see it for yourself. It doesn't matter how many people are (or are not) complaining. It's an easily observable fact that the Finder needs serious improvement.
Finder is a disaster that just happens to be generally adequate, sort of like Windows itself. I wouldn't compare it to Windows Explorer as a higher bar, though--Explorer has its own share of problems, and first among them is that when one window goes down, it takes all of them with it and it doesn't remember your session. It also seems to have a problem with insisting random folders are music folders and it will completely freeze up on several local network browsing operations, even in Vista, which otherwise greatly improved Explorer's handling of network shares.

Nautilus is pretty basic and when I used it tended to be crash-prone. Konqueror is much more stable, but it's also bulky and ungainly. I'd say from an overall usability standpoint, Finder and Windows Explorer come out on top but for stability Konqueror takes the cake. I wish Finder had a drag and drop path bar with breadcrumb style navigation like Windows Explorer and that it would background failed or timing-out network operations. I'd actually like it then, instead of simply tolerating it. Bring on some improved sorting (like the ability to keep folders together at the top regardless of view mode) and a more powerful, task-sensitive sidebar and I'd be really pleased.

Path Finder is a reasonably good interim solution, but it suffers from the same over-featured Swiss-army knife bulk that Konqueror does. I don't see the need or use for tabbed Finder windows, since if I have multiple windows open, it's generally because I'm dragging files around or am comparing windows side by side--which tabs would impede.

kalisphoenix
Mar 6, 2007, 06:46 AM
FYI, the people who don't like the finder are a very vocal minority, most Mac users think it's great.

Finder is a crock of ****. Anyone who says different is either the busker who developed it or the busker's mother.

seigel
Mar 6, 2007, 11:19 AM
Oh I just know it is coming soon. Once they release 10.4.9, then they *HAVE* to release 10.5.0 next ;) Where else could they go?

:)

James

zblaxberg
Mar 6, 2007, 01:51 PM
I think there's a big chance that leopard will be released earlier than we all thought...My guess is Tuesday April 17 it will be released but at PMA in Las Vegas they will finally show us the secret features and possibly a new look for the os.

DMann
Mar 6, 2007, 02:12 PM
Finder is a crock of ****. Anyone who says different is either the busker who developed it or the busker's mother.

The sad thing is, when Avie Tevanian first designed Cheetah, (10.0) he opted not to have a Finder at all. After an overwhelming uproar from the Mac community, the Finder was integrated back into OS X, albeit, with minimal effort. One only hopes that it receives the attention it deserves in Leopard, and that the Finder becomes one of those 'Hidden Features' of the new interface.

MonkeyClaw
Mar 6, 2007, 03:10 PM
How then were you supposed to do file management without finder back then?

matticus008
Mar 6, 2007, 07:05 PM
How then were you supposed to do file management without finder back then?
The same way other OSes do file management without Finder: with a different file manager. The OS X Finder isn't really "Finder" in the classical sense--it's a bastardized mix of metaphors. The old Finder was wholly spatial and the OS X Finder is part navigational. They tried to kill it and start over with OS X, but Mac users wouldn't have it. A clear demonstration of how actions have consequences :rolleyes:.

BilltheCat
Mar 6, 2007, 09:37 PM
The old engineer in me is just in love with the *nix heritage of OSX and cannot wait to see even more with a possible unix certification.

The new OSX user in me would really enjoy an Illuminous look with that halo effect!

Sort of your great unix with great apps and a really trick GUI. Man am I glad I never got windoze msce certified!
:apple:

MonkeyClaw
Mar 6, 2007, 10:26 PM
The same way other OSes do file management without Finder: with a different file manager. The OS X Finder isn't really "Finder" in the classical sense--it's a bastardized mix of metaphors. The old Finder was wholly spatial and the OS X Finder is part navigational. They tried to kill it and start over with OS X, but Mac users wouldn't have it. A clear demonstration of how actions have consequences :rolleyes:.

What do you mean by spatial, like I dunno, I am having a hard time picturing a specific example, lol.

matticus008
Mar 7, 2007, 01:13 AM
What do you mean by spatial, like I dunno, I am having a hard time picturing a specific example, lol.
Spatial file managers don't have forward and back buttons, and each folder occupies its own window. If you open a folder, it springs up into a new window, always. The window containing that folder stays open and moves to the background, with the open folder having an "open folder" icon. There are other details to it which you can find on Google if you're interested or you can PM me. Windows Explorer is navigational (similar in operation to a web browser).

funkychunkz
Mar 7, 2007, 04:49 PM
i don't really care how long it takes. If it means 10.5 will be the most stable mac os release yet, ill wait until christmas!

Hey, I wouldn't mind if Christmas came this spring alongside leopard!

I don't think Apple's bug-eliminating strategy will experience a radical change: 10.5.0 won't be perfect, though possibly more stable than previous releases. In the past, Apple has thrived on a system where they introduce bug fixes and new features continually through V.x updates. People are generally happy with that equilibrium. As for New OSes, they finish off the last 10.x release the best they can, and then they add new features and sell it. So as clean as Tiger is getting to be, you can't hope that Leopard will build features ontop of this squeaky clean foundation. 10.3.9 still has bugs, there's no hopes in them being fixed now. Apple is considerate enough to provide security updates (and biggies like that), but it's obviously not of primary consideration anymore. It would be nice to have a tollerably error resistant system, but they won't push the launch agenda past the spring time frame (I seriously hope not, it would mean a meltdown on the consistency they've established).

Project
Mar 7, 2007, 07:38 PM
I know a lot of older Mac folk like Siracusa swear by it, but I cant stand the spatial file manager.

SiliconAddict
Mar 7, 2007, 09:29 PM
FYI, the people who don't like the finder are a very vocal minority, most Mac users think it's great.

Then most mac user's aren't really using it on anything other then an isolated system or with a handful of files. There are pages and pages of lists on why the finder is a heaping pile of ****. This is in the same vein as people who think Internet Explorer is a perfectly fine browser. Just because you haven't used anything else doesn't make it superior. It just makes your view narrow and limited.

SiliconAddict
Mar 7, 2007, 09:35 PM
Spatial file managers don't have forward and back buttons, and each folder occupies its own window. If you open a folder, it springs up into a new window, always. The window containing that folder stays open and moves to the background, with the open folder having an "open folder" icon. There are other details to it which you can find on Google if you're interested or you can PM me. Windows Explorer is navigational (similar in operation to a web browser).

Here. Have him read this: http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/finder.ars

I wish to god Apple would hire John Siracusa to lead a OS X Finder revamp committee. He is my Mac god. Not thee God. Just a god. :p I've not read a single post he's made that I haven't agreed with.

notsofatjames
Mar 8, 2007, 01:51 AM
FYI, the people who don't like the finder are a very vocal minority, most Mac users think it's great.

Finder does fine for the average user. It's only the Pro's that seem to complain about it. I'm not sure how the apples market is split though? are there more home users, or are most apple users Pros??

GregA
Mar 8, 2007, 02:35 AM
Finder does fine for the average user. It's only the Pro's that seem to complain about it.It depends how you define Pro. The main problem I have is when the beachball spins for a while while the finder waits for something to happen. Interface-wise I find it fine.

However - look at how you find your photos in iPhoto. Look at how you access your Music. and Mail messages. Add Spotlight. Play with server & local files (& some on an iPod) and throw in online storage so you can access your information anwhere. Mix them together with the finder.... and .. actually we get a bit of a mess :)

I wouldn't be surprised if Apple is working very hard on a new metaphor for accessing our information, and I'm sure there is an amazing way of doing it that we'll see in the next few years. Perhaps they're trying to put it into Leopard, perhaps not.

Evangelion
Mar 8, 2007, 05:51 AM
FYI, the people who don't like the finder are a very vocal minority, most Mac users think it's great.

Um, I think that most Mac-users would describe Finder as "meh". I can't really see anyone think that "Yes! Finder is really really great!".

freedevil
Mar 8, 2007, 08:25 AM
I dont think finder is okay for even average users... for example hitting the back button doesnt bring you back to the directory you entered.... if you have 20 dirs its pretty annoying to scroll back down.

No I dont wanna use path this should be a basic function of finder to remember what dir you entered.

Lonon
Mar 8, 2007, 08:29 AM
My theory:
The previews are old. The real builds are coming.
Remember the double life of Tiger in Intel? Remenber the fake prototypes that Apple gave to some employees to provide disinformation? The Leopard builds are the new conspiracy thing of the month (maybe to much X-Files). Apple is playing with us.

Steve will PREVIEW Leopard with all the secret stuff on the WWDC and announce that it will be on sale in June 21, the last possible day. Then, Apple will have a few weeks to iron out the final bugs and developers will have a final beta to work with until the OS ships.

BTW, i'm keeping my hopes low regarding the top secret features. I just can't see how they can improve the OS with new and astonishing things like once were Dashboard, Spotlight, or even Safari. Don't get me wrong, Spaces and Time Machine are very cool but in time the coolness factor has faded in me. On the other hand i could be wrong, and they could WOW us away (pun intended xD). I just don't expect it to be that way

CoreWeb
Mar 8, 2007, 08:57 AM
My theory:
The previews are old. The real builds are coming.
Remember the double life of Tiger in Intel? Remenber the fake prototypes that Apple gave to some employees to provide disinformation? The Leopard builds are the new conspiracy thing of the month (maybe to much X-Files). Apple is playing with us.

Steve will PREVIEW Leopard with all the secret stuff on the WWDC and announce that it will be on sale in June 21, the last possible day. Then, Apple will have a few weeks to iron out the final bugs and developers will have a final beta to work with until the OS ships.

BTW, i'm keeping my hopes low regarding the top secret features. I just can't see how they can improve the OS with new and astonishing things like once were Dashboard, Spotlight, or even Safari. Don't get me wrong, Spaces and Time Machine are very cool but in time the coolness factor has faded in me. On the other hand i could be wrong, and they could WOW us away (pun intended xD). I just don't expect it to be that way

Actually, I would think that Apple would require two to three weeks just to get the DVDs created and boxed, which means they should probably be finished with the OS itself by June 1st. But I do agree that we haven't been seeing everything in the builds.

The builds have been mostly for developers. I think that the actual operating system will have a bit more (not too much, but perhaps a new UI + a few extras).

As for the bugs in the current version, they are likely either fixed in Apple's internal version(s), or are easy enough for Apple to fix that they haven't bothered yet.

aLoC
Mar 13, 2007, 09:27 AM
Mac is supposed to be about simplicity. The Networking pref pane in Leopard would give the most ardent geek a headache.

And refactoring is good, but so are small and frequent releases. They have tried to change too much under the hood at once, and as a result Leopard may be an unstable OS for quite some time.

peharri
Mar 13, 2007, 10:03 AM
This casts doubt upon recent reports (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/02/20/mac-os-x-leopard-10-5-at-end-of-march/) that Leopard will be ready for a late-March release.


In order for doubts to have been cast, those reports needed to be taken seriously in the first place.

There are some seriously over-optimistic people here. We've known that Leopard isn't going to come out until June at the earliest since MWSF. This is a heralded to be a major product, hell the length of time the thing has been in development is second only to Mac OS X 10.0, and the idea Steve isn't going to demo it to the Mac community before release is simply ridiculous.

The next event the Mac community will be at is WWDC. That's when we'll see the Leopard demo, and it'll be after the demo, maybe in minutes, maybe in weeks, we'll see Leopard discs in people's hands.

It's not rocket science, and I'm baffled by the insistence many have that it will be earlier than that.

Project
Mar 14, 2007, 07:13 AM
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/180/420988120_9b997a9e18_o.jpg

Illuminous makes another appearance, this time on the iTunes site. Check the download iTunes button

nawade
Mar 14, 2007, 10:29 AM
Hi, let me say I am a PC user for 25 years now and I am ready to move to a Mac... Please hold the applause and cheers (Thank You)

Mac has now wed itself to Intel with the CPU being the heart of any operating system. Mac has now got to rely heavily on the "Architecture" of the CPU's being released to be able to support any software upgrades planned... so expect to see release dates of the OS and upgrades tied to release dates of new chips like the Intel Penryn. Google the Penryn and see facts on its die size, power consumption and architecture features their adding to support new features for an OS.

Penryn might throw Leopard back to late Fall, early Winter at it's earliest release date.

I am sure Mac and Intel are sharing information about upcoming chips and Leopard OS to make it the best and most it will be, unlike Windows Vista which is a sham and a shame to even be called an upgraded operating system.

On a side not of "Marketing Sense" it is NOW time to stick the knife in Microsoft with the release of Leopard and reap the financial rewards of millions of converts to Mac from disgruntled PC users.

P.S. There has been a working (test) pre-release out of Penryn and the MAC has run on it already.

matticus008
Mar 14, 2007, 04:45 PM
Mac has now wed itself to Intel with the CPU being the heart of any operating system. Mac has now got to rely heavily on the "Architecture" of the CPU's being released to be able to support any software upgrades planned... so expect to see release dates of the OS and upgrades tied to release dates of new chips like the Intel Penryn.
Penryn offers nothing that can't be added to an existing OS or that would require a delay to an upcoming one. Also note that the CPU has absolutely no impact on software releases except where it becomes necessary (x64 versions)--Windows, Solaris, and Linux release schedules have nothing in particular to do with the release dates of CPUs. This is because hardware changes within the CPU frequently do not require any code changes, as the hardware-software interface remains intact and unaltered--faster clock speeds, lower TDP, increased power efficiency, and internal reorganization don't have any impact on OS design.

In particular, with a modular kernel design, there is absolutely no dependence on any CPU features--that's the whole point of a platform agnostic philosophy and the only reason why Tiger was released to Intel so easily. Tweaks and optimizations for hardware components can be installed in the form of kernel updates, which are regularly released at point updates.

shikimo
Mar 15, 2007, 08:57 AM
Hi, let me say I am a PC user for 25 years now and I am ready to move to a Mac... Please hold the applause and cheers (Thank You)

Mac has now wed itself to Intel with the CPU being the heart of any operating system. Mac has now got to rely heavily on the "Architecture" of the CPU's being released to be able to support any software upgrades planned... so expect to see release dates of the OS and upgrades tied to release dates of new chips like the Intel Penryn. Google the Penryn and see facts on its die size, power consumption and architecture features their adding to support new features for an OS.

Penryn might throw Leopard back to late Fall, early Winter at it's earliest release date.

I am sure Mac and Intel are sharing information about upcoming chips and Leopard OS to make it the best and most it will be, unlike Windows Vista which is a sham and a shame to even be called an upgraded operating system.

On a side not of "Marketing Sense" it is NOW time to stick the knife in Microsoft with the release of Leopard and reap the financial rewards of millions of converts to Mac from disgruntled PC users.

P.S. There has been a working (test) pre-release out of Penryn and the MAC has run on it already.


Yeah, matticus is right: while your general observation that the connection between Intel and Apple affects the way we try and predict some Apple product cycles in ways that didn't exist in the PowerPC days--a quick keyword search for "Santa Rosa" on this forum will return piles of examples--there is zilcho dependency of Leopard on Penryn or any other CPU as-yet-unreleased technology. Barring some weird disaster, Leopard will still be out at WWDC or before, the specific date still being anybody's guess IMO.

BTW do you have a reference for an article about the Penryn test?

In any case, when you do go for it I hope your new Mac works out for you.

jauhari
Mar 20, 2007, 03:14 AM
The REAL WOW Starting on April :p