G5 may not be what we've been expecting.

[mischief]

Moto's site says nothing about an MPC line chip in the 8xxx series that isn't an embedded comm processor.

Perhaps we've all been ignoring the possibility that IBM's "super G3" that we found a while back will be G5. I think Moto may sell out of it's PPC holdings for the Desktop and concentrate on what they can sell to Cisco and Sun.

So where does this leave us?

It means we lose Altivec or see it under liscence on an IBM CPU.

It means we get enough CPU's to really have some fun.

It means the rumors of a G5 and an Athlon on the same Mobo make a bit more sense.

[Backtothemac]

If Motorolla doesn't give us a true G5, then I cannot understand why Apple doesn't move to the Athlon. Linux flies on that processor, and X (according to rumor) is already running on the Athlons. They are x86, but what if AMD created a variant of the processor that was PPC based?

Now here is a rumor for you. Apple buys Mortorolla's Chip design, and then partners with AMD to actually design and build the processors. Can you imagine what they could build on the PPC platform? SSE is basically the velocity engine, and it shows on their benchmarks. They are 500 MHZ behind Intel, and perfom equal, and that is on the X86 architecture!

By the way Mischief, what is the super G3?

[mymemory]

All that you both are saying is making me depress, I do not understand a thing and is making me feel exactly what I am... a pour 3rd world person:(

[mischief]

Take heart dude, I'm gonna see about turning things around. I'm getting sick of the US being so superficial and bound up in legal rat's-nests. You're little country and many others like it will blossom soon. Ride it out and keep the Faith.

[mischief]

About 6 weeks ago there was a thread that speculated an IBM chip may be the G5. There was a link to the specs. The thing was scalable in it's whole architecture the way Altivec is as a Vector unit. The forums have been re-organized so much I can't find it any more but it was from that MWSF period. Maybe Arn or blakespot can find it.

[oldMac]

Yes.

Apple should court someone else into the AIM alliance who would have more of a vested interest in making PC processors. AMD seems like a good candidate because of their demonstrated results.

[mischief]

The chip is the 750 FX.

http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/news/2001/1017_750fx.html]

:cool:

[Beej]

AMD is good. I like the idea of them making PowerPC chips. I'd much rather that than have OS X run on x86 architecture.

What do you think the chances are of Intel, AMD and Apple all agreeing on a new architecture? As it stands, AMD (and possibly Intel, I'm not sure) is emulating the x86 architecture on a completely different type of chip.

Tha only thing that is stopping Intel from leaving the x86 architecture is legacy. If they could make a brand new, non x86 based chip it would fly. And if Intel, AMD and Apple all agreed on a new architecture, it could be bought in over a couple of years by all companies.

That way you could run Windows, Mac OS, linux whatever on any machine. But best of all, the hardware would be cheaper and faster. Hmmm...

[rice_web]

The third world is going down the gutter right now, but so is the rest of the world. A depression has settled over the world, and only a dictatorship can lead countries away from it. If history is repeating itself, we could be in store for another World War. What are the odds that Argentina declares a dictatorship and a war on Chile within the next three years?

[MacAztec]

Has Apple EVER EVER increased the number or release date on a processor/machine, but the machine was actually slower than previous processors? I dont think so!

Whenever a new Mac is released, it is always FASTER and BETTER than the model before it. There is no way in holy hell, that a G5 will out-perform a G4. NO way...:mad:

[Hemingray]

Originally posted by Mac_User
There is no way in holy hell, that a G5 will out-perform a G4. NO way...:mad:

Uh... how's that again?

[MacAztec]

Originally posted by Hemingray


Uh... how's that again?

Ahhh..Sorry!:p :p
I ment there is no way a G4 will out perform a G5!

[dualburn001]

Originally posted by Mac_User
There is no way in holy hell, that a G5 will out-perform a G4. NO way...:mad:

you mean thiers no way a g4 can outperform a g5

[SPG]

Either way, new method, or secret research project, we need a G5 soon.

[graydecember]

mymemory, rice_web:

I'm very interested in what you have to say about the possibilities of a world war, and about the state of affairs abroad. Although I'm not the sort who is habitually hand wringing about the apocalypse, even before 911 (tech sector free-fall, actually), I was beginning to feel a kind of darkness descend upon the world. I'm not trying to be melodramatic at all- it's just that things are very bad right now, and we americans *still* don't even freakin' realize it- we're barely acting any differently (especially those of us not on the east coast). In fact, one could argue that we americans are acting even stupider than ever (although I'm not going to be the one argue that, not here!!)

This is definitely a subject that could creat some controversy, but perhaps someone can recommend a good forum for talking about this (I'm reading Noam Chomsky right now, and I'm getting pretty freaked out). I'm not buying a $3000 mac anytime soon though, and in fact I'm quite seriously thinking about liquidating my assets and turning them into something valuable (like 3 acres and a solar cabin in Oregon!) :eek: :eek: :confused:

[IndyGopher]

Originally posted by Mac_User


Ahhh..Sorry!:p :p
I ment there is no way a G4 will out perform a G5!

I still say the 601 is a lot better chip than the 603... but I know what you mean... of course, the 604 did some things better than the G3, too.. so it isn't always a huge revolutionary thing when they change CPU's.

[elfin buddy]

perhaps someone should start a thread dedicated to discussing the possibility of WW3.....:rolleyes:

[Taft]

Originally posted by rice_web
The third world is going down the gutter right now, but so is the rest of the world. A depression has settled over the world, and only a dictatorship can lead countries away from it. If history is repeating itself, we could be in store for another World War. What are the odds that Argentina declares a dictatorship and a war on Chile within the next three years?

What the hell!?!?!?!

Way to cheer everyone up. World War?? Third world going down the drain??? Thats just no way to talk. I'm all for a hard dose of reality now and then, but keep it rational.

If there is any touch of humanity in this world, we'll find ways to improve life for everyone on this planet. Gods know we're closer than ever to being able to accomplish it--technologically and monetarily that is.

I'm hoping for a golden age of reason, technological advance, and care for our fellow human beings as well as for this earth. Call me an idealist, but I think it will be possible someday.

America needs to become more globally oriented for a start. How about treating foreign countries a bit better than we have in the past? Its as good a place as any to start.

If any community is capable of seeing a better world, I'd think it would be Mac users. How about it everybody?

Matthew "Hippy" Trumbell

[Catfish_Man]

...is/is not the following things:

1) It is not the G5. It's a G3. A fast, low power, bus speed boosted G3, but still a G3.

2) It will not and cannot outperform a current top-of-the-line G4. G3s can't be multiprocessor, don't have Altivec, don't have a level 3 cache, and don't have as advanced an FP unit. The only advantage it has is a bit more L2 cache and a slightly faster bus.

3) It does not have Altivec, nor anything like Altivec. Also, it would be a horrendous waste of die space to make the entire chip SIMD capable, it would mean that half the chip wouldn't be being used most of the time, which would make it slower than it would be without SIMD.

4) It is the ideal chip for the iBook. 1GHz, 200MHz bus, 512k L2 cache, 3.6 watts.

The IBM alternative to a Motorola G5 can be seen by looking at their PPC roadmap ( http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/products/powerpc/rdmap/roadmap_small.jpg ). It's multi-core (2 or more chips in one), 1GHz+, integrated SIMD (read that as Altivec/SSE/3dNOW! clone), probably with DDR support, .13 micron, SOI, probably with PCI-X support, probably some other stuff. They are working on it, but there is no reason to believe that it's the G5 rather than the MPC7500.

Also, AMD does not emulate x86. Their processors are pure x86, even their new Hammer chip (it's a 64 bit extension to x86). I believe you're thinking of Transmeta, which makes a VLIW processor that emulates x86 in an extremely nifty way and runs on only 1 watt of power. They could easily make it emulate PPC instead. If Transmeta makes a high performance, PPC/x86 compatible chip, and Apple uses it, I will be very happy. Code morphing is awesome(the tech they use to emulate x86).

SSE/SSE2/MMX/3dNOW!/Enhanced 3dNOW! all try to do what Altivec does (which is add a dedicated SIMD unit to the chip). However, they suck at it. If the P4/AthlonXP had something as good as Altivec three things would be true:

1) The chip would require the best heat sink ever made (they're already hot, adding *four* pipelines and 32 128-bit registers would just make them bigger/more power hungy/hotter.

2) The extra space would make them more expensive

3) The G4 would be doomed. Altivec is only thing that lets it get anywhere close to holding its own against an AthlonXP 2000+ or P4 2.2GHz. If they had Altivec they would blow it out of the water.

[Catfish_Man]

Originally posted by mrtrumbe


What the hell!?!?!?!

Way to cheer everyone up. World War?? Third world going down the drain??? Thats just no way to talk. I'm all for a hard dose of reality now and then, but keep it rational.

If there is any touch of humanity in this world, we'll find ways to improve life for everyone on this planet. Gods know we're closer than ever to being able to accomplish it--technologically and monetarily that is.

I'm hoping for a golden age of reason, technological advance, and care for our fellow human beings as well as for this earth. Call me an idealist, but I think it will be possible someday.

America needs to become more globally oriented for a start. How about treating foreign countries a bit better than we have in the past? Its as good a place as any to start.

If any community is capable of seeing a better world, I'd think it would be Mac users. How about it everybody?

Matthew "Hippy" Trumbell

I agree. America tried the isolationist foreign policy technique at the start of WW2 (look at how well that worked). They don't need to try it again (like they're doing right now). So far we've pissed off:

Japan + world with the Kyoto protocol
Russia with the "Star Wars" program
whichever countries are on the "Axis of Evil" with that speech
probably some others I didn't hear about/remember


not a great record is it?

[dualburn001]

thread went from g5 to ww3
hmmm not a very good sign

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by dualburn001
thread went from g5 to ww3
hmmm not a very good sign

neither has happened yet

...and the way things have been going, it looks more like ww3 is going to come before the g5...i think that's what the "war" on terrorism is, a kind of covert third world war with a lot of countires working together to try to stamp out terrorism...and it will be costly as it has been already and there might be no end in sight

as far as the g5, the waiting seems like there will be no end in sight and we may not even see this g5 machine this year

two things i have been waiting for recently...catch bin laden and see a g5

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by dualburn001
thread went from g5 to ww3
hmmm not a very good sign

It just goes to show how little FACTUAL evidence is circulating right now. Either Apple/Moto are playing their cards extrememly close...or there's simply not much going on.
We can sit here and discuss the implications of their roadmap until we're blue in the face, but the truth remains we don't really know much about what the G5 will be like and when we'll see it.

I think this is Steve's revenge for all the leakages in previous years!

[MacAztec]

Now we are off the subject...
Back to the G5...
...it will not be a G3 on steroids. A g3 will NEVER outperform a G4. So a G5 will out perform both a G4 and the G3.

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by Mac_User
Now we are off the subject...
Back to the G5...
...it will not be a G3 on steroids. A g3 will NEVER outperform a G4. So a G5 will out perform both a G4 and the G3.

I thought I brought us back on topic? :)

I think the G5 had better substantially outperform the Wintel chips. What better way to grab more marketshare? We've already got an OS every PC user wishes they had, now we need the hardware to show it off to its fullest.
If they put out a CPU that hands down, no discussion, no excuses beats the crap out of any Intel or AMD chip they will REALLY have something to brag about at MW.

[MacAztec]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU


I thought I brought us back on topic? :)

I think the G5 had better substantially outperform the Wintel chips. What better way to grab more marketshare? We've already got an OS every PC user wishes they had, now we need the hardware to show it off to its fullest.
If they put out a CPU that hands down, no discussion, no excuses beats the crap out of any Intel or AMD chip they will REALLY have something to brag about at MW.

I like you Rower...we think alike:D
Yeah, I really want to see the G5 debut. Just to see it knock the pants off "the hammer" *ooh im shaking* or the "Mckinely". I really cant wait. I am HOPING for MWNY, but I suspect MWSF.

ONE LAST THING
Anyone notice Apple Edu. Store is having additional price drops? Powermacs get an ADDITIONAL 50 to 100 dollars off, and powerbooks, ibooks, and the old iMac.

Apple is really trying to take a big lead in that area, i guess.

[3rdpath]

all i can say is today i called my local mac dealer who i've bought multiple systems from. i told him i'm tired of waiting for "whatever" the big deal is and told him the specs of how i wanted my dual 1 ghz built. and you guessed it---he said to just wait...he wouldn't be specific as to why. and the guy works on commission so go figure why he'd delay a pretty good sale. he did seem to think tokyo was significant.

could it be the mythical G5?

who the heck knows.:confused:

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by 3rdpath
all i can say is today i called my local mac dealer who i've bought multiple systems from. i told him i'm tired of waiting for "whatever" the big deal is and told him the specs of how i wanted my dual 1 ghz built. and you guessed it---he said to just wait...he wouldn't be specific as to why. and the guy works on commission so go figure why he'd delay a pretty good sale. he did seem to think tokyo was significant.

could it be the mythical G5?

who the heck knows.:confused:

I think they would catch the whole world by surprise if they did that...but I'm doubtful for one VERY good reason: They just updated the whole PowerMac line in January, and all those people who bought DP1Ghz systems would be rioting in the streets if their two month old systems were already obsolete.

MWSF might be more likely, but still improbable...

[Catfish_Man]

...is *not* going to beat the Itanium (or if it does then someone at Moto is a genius). The Itanium is a very new, very expensive, very large, high-end server chip. The G5 (if it's the Motorola one) is a medium new (new chip, but still PPC), medium low priced, small (if past trends continue, which seems likely to get it into the embedded market), high-end desktop chip. The competition is the P4, the AthlonXP, and possibly the Hammer (I don't know if it's going to be in desktops any time soon). The next big advances for AMD/Intel are going to be

Hyperthreading on the P4: Q1 2003
.13 micron AthlonXP/Hammer: ?
Hammer: ?

I would expect the Q1 2003 P4 to be a 3GHz chip with Hyperthreading, if the G5 isn't out by then the G4 will be finished. It won't be able to keep up with a chip that's 1.5GHz faster than it, and more efficient than the current P4 (assuming that it is 1.5GHz by 2003, hopefully we'll be seeing G5s faster than that :)).

[Catfish_Man]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU


I think they would catch the whole world by surprise if they did that...but I'm doubtful for one VERY good reason: They just updated the whole PowerMac line in January, and all those people who bought DP1Ghz systems would be rioting in the streets if their two month old systems were already obsolete.

MWSF might be more likely, but still improbable...

...MWSF is in 2003. If it's not out by then I'll be the one rioting.

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by Catfish_Man


...MWSF is in 2003. If it's not out by then I'll be the one rioting.

Sorry, that should have been MWNY.
Yeah, G5s by MWSF are an absolute must!

[3rdpath]

apple really needs to do it and soon. they've proven they can keep a secret (and learned a lesson about cover stories...) so anything is possible.

the dual 1ghz is really just a marginal way to keep the power users from rioting; its not a great leap from the dual 800. and lets face it-the people who buy the fast machines LOVE to talk gear. perception is huge to the user and to his/her clients. if nothing happens within 4 weeks i'll buy the G4 but i won't be too happy about jumping in on a product's end of life-cycle.

we've all read the specs and the roadmaps for the processors-the G5 is overdue.

[Hemingray]

Originally posted by 3rdpath
could it be the mythical G5?

who the heck knows.:confused:

That is THE MOST refreshing thing I've heard in a while! :D None of this "I hope so!" or "It had better be or I'm going to kill [insert large number] Apple employees!" or "Hell no!" Just a simple "who the heck knows". Hear hear!

...okay, I'm going to bed...

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by 3rdpath
apple really needs to do it and soon. they've proven they can keep a secret (and learned a lesson about cover stories...) so anything is possible.

the dual 1ghz is really just a marginal way to keep the power users from rioting; its not a great leap from the dual 800. and lets face it-the people who buy the fast machines LOVE to talk gear. perception is huge to the user and to his/her clients. if nothing happens within 4 weeks i'll buy the G4 but i won't be too happy about jumping in on a product's end of life-cycle.

we've all read the specs and the roadmaps for the processors-the G5 is overdue.

living not too far away from apple, we in the silicon valley joke how apple can't hide anything, but i think being in the vicinity of cupertino, it is different...i used to know a man who lived near a guitar plant and he always knew what the next year's guitar models were by diving into fender musical intruments' dumpsters and telling his school buddies...well, the apple employees are such zealots, they can't keep their mouths shut sometimes:D

appleinsider used to get everything down to the tee

[mcrain]

Hmmm... 2002, in my opinion shouldn't be too groundbreaking. If I were apple, I'd release just enough to keep forward momentum until 2003 and then, make a splash. Why you ask? 2003 is the 20 year anniversary of Lisa. Either that, or they will not do much during 2002 and 2003 and do something huge for 2004, the 20 year anniversary of "1984."

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by mcrain
Hmmm... 2002, in my opinion shouldn't be too groundbreaking. If I were apple, I'd release just enough to keep forward momentum until 2003 and then, make a splash. Why you ask? 2003 is the 20 year anniversary of Lisa. Either that, or they will not do much during 2002 and 2003 and do something huge for 2004, the 20 year anniversary of "1984."

the funny thing is nobody (or very few) knows about lisa and a lot of people were not into computers in 1984 for the mac...in the pc world, some oldtimers talk about the 8088, or the early ibm boxes, but most people don't know or even care about how important the 8088 was or ibm's role in the early pc industry

it looks more and more like g5 will come out in 2003, but earlier would be really nice...for a change

[spikey]

Agreed, most people who are into computers now were brought up on ****ing Packard bells with 166 pentiums in them. But it matters to apple, and alot of apple fans, so possibly a reincarnation of the cube would be more appropriate than a G5.


The G5 would be nice, but a G4 with rapidIO, 2Mb L3cache etc is by no means a bad chip, shame the clock speed isnt up to par.

[SPG]

Originally posted by mcrain
Hmmm... 2002, in my opinion shouldn't be too groundbreaking. If I were apple, I'd release just enough to keep forward momentum until 2003 and then, make a splash. Why you ask? 2003 is the 20 year anniversary of Lisa. Either that, or they will not do much during 2002 and 2003 and do something huge for 2004, the 20 year anniversary of "1984."

That is the most ridiculous reasoning I have ever heard. Yes Apple has released an "aniversary edition" (no really groundbreaking new technologies in it though) in the past but they would never delay a major upgrade of their product line to make the number of the year match up nicely. They are a business and as such make business and marketing decisions, not whims as much as any of the Steve worshippers would like to believe.
________________
Still waiting for my DP G5.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by SPG


That is the most ridiculous reasoning I have ever heard. Yes Apple has released an "aniversary edition" (no really groundbreaking new technologies in it though) in the past but they would never delay a major upgrade of their product line to make the number of the year match up nicely. They are a business and as such make business and marketing decisions, not whims as much as any of the Steve worshippers would like to believe.
________________
Still waiting for my DP G5.

apple may be a business, but steve jobs has authored some of the most famous case studies of what not to do in business and is widely studied and ridiculed in business school

steve wozniak had to talk steve jobs into marketing the computer after steve jobs talked wozniak into it but abandoned the idea...it was like the blind leading the blind...if it wasn't for markkula and kawasaki, and some others, apple would have just vanished

jobs is a marketing genius but he still is not a business manager...just look at apple's stock and look at market share at 4.5 percent...even gil amelio had 6 percent of the market with apple

jobs' has this great ability to hit a home run and as he is rounding third base, he always falls and breaks his leg...he is the michell kwan of the IT industry or better yet, he is the sf giants of the IT industry always coming up with great stuff but never winning the world series

re: giants...barry bonds hit 73 homers and the giants still missed the playoffs...just like steve jobs and apple

[Spock]

I think Apple and AMD would be perfect. Apple could provide the case and software and AMD can take care of everything else. I would Love to go into a computer shop and buy an Apple Compatible MoBo. Think about it if AMD could make a MoBo that will fit in the currently aging Powermac. That would make me happy I mean how many have got a brand new Powermac and the have Steve say "Oh ya we also have a new line of Powermacs I thinks it's the best thing we have ever made"

[ftaok]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
apple may be a business, but steve jobs has authored some of the most famous case studies of what not to do in business and is widely studied and ridiculed in business school

...snip...

jobs is a marketing genius but he still is not a business manager...just look at apple's stock and look at market share at 4.5 percent...even gil amelio had 6 percent of the market with appleI'm not gonna say that Jobs is some sort of great CEO, but to compare Jobs and Amelio based on market share is assinine. I could take Apple to a 10% market share by the end of the day tomorrow, but my profit margins are gonna get hurt. In the end, Jobs 4.5% is worth a whole lot more than Gil's 6%. Jobs' Apple is profitable; Gil's Apple was not.

Oh, and I wouldn't put a whole lot of faith in the MBA programs. The original business plan for FedEx was given a "C" because the professor felt that it wasn't feasible. The rest is, as we say, history.

[mischief]

I ask if anybody has found concrete data on G5 as to: is it Moto or IBM and I get this?!?

Jeez!:p :eek: :confused:;) :rolleyes:

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by ftaok
I'm not gonna say that Jobs is some sort of great CEO, but to compare Jobs and Amelio based on market share is assinine. I could take Apple to a 10% market share by the end of the day tomorrow, but my profit margins are gonna get hurt. In the end, Jobs 4.5% is worth a whole lot more than Gil's 6%. Jobs' Apple is profitable; Gil's Apple was not.

Oh, and I wouldn't put a whole lot of faith in the MBA programs. The original business plan for FedEx was given a "C" because the professor felt that it wasn't feasible. The rest is, as we say, history.

do i think jobs is better than gil as ceo? too early to say, maybe...high profit margin works better for software as opposed to hardware, apple should not price itself out of the market and as some lisa owners say it was better than mac, mac lived because it was not too expensive relatively compared to the market...it is a balancing act

michael dell was a relative unknown not too long ago...look what he has done...he understood that selling a lot of machines with less of a profit margin was the key and he undercut everybody and dell is king in the IT world

personally, i stay with my mac, but that's just me and every day, there are fewer and fewer people like me who go against the grain...i have seen too many people switch to pc and now i actually see graphic designers who are pc side only...that was never the case before...and this all happened during jobs' rule at ceo...granted, the original imac and ibook were a boost that helped save apple but since the investors fell away and stock value went down, it has been a scary ride...living where i do near apple, i get to see the apple employees and resellers all the time and the mood has been really down from what i have seen...in 1998, apple seemed so invincible with their bondi blue imac and if you asked anybody then, we all thought apple could get a quarter of the market (those were the days)

[ftaok]

do i think jobs is better than gil as ceo? too early to say, maybe...high profit margin works better for software as opposed to hardware, apple should not price itself out of the market and as some lisa owners say it was better than mac, mac lived because it was not too expensive relatively compared to the market...it is a balancing act You're right. It is a balance to find that "Sweet Spot" between market share and profits. Maybe Jobs is skewed a little too much towards profits. Maybe Amelio was skewed a little too much to market share.

Personally, I think that 2 of the 4 Mac Lines are priced very competitively, when compared to PCs feature-to-feature. You get a lot of computer for the $$$ with the iBook and iMacs.

michael dell was a relative unknown not too long ago...look what he has done...he understood that selling a lot of machines with less of a profit margin was the key and he undercut everybody and dell is king in the IT world In my opinion, volume sales only work with commodity products. PCs are commodities. Macs, for whatever reasons, are not.

As far as the morale over at Apple, I can't comment. But I assume that it's better now than when Gil was in charge.

[jefhatfield]

gil was not loved, and neither is steve jobs, but i don't think any ceo at apple was well liked and all i have heard my whole life is complaints

i hate to admit it, but scully took apple to the big leagues and that is why steve jobs brought scully in which truly was the best decision for apple and it was regrettable that scully had to fire jobs, but even jobs admitted that he learned his lesson running next

there is no doubt today's steve jobs is smarter than yesteryear's steve jobs

there are still too many people who are left out of the apple loop, especially many state and uc students who work full time just to survive, who can never afford the ibook or imac which is developed right in their backyard...it is a shame

go to san jose state sometime and you will see these poor students mostly stuck with emachines and used pentiums as they try to get thru college in six years because they have to work and sometimes support a baby or two...that is the norm from what i have seen and many students at the country club monterey peninsula college nearby complain that macs are priced too high...in class the other day, i saw a poor vietnamese kid get ridiculed for having a 366 mhz pc, but he bravely said, "hey, it gets the job done"

we are not all upper middle class and the majority of americans cannot afford a mac

i call for an ultra inexpensive mac which is geared for the starving college student...something around 500 dollars

sorry for the rant but i am a racial minority (asian american) and very aware of the digital divide and the nearly 150 million americans who do not have access to computers but america is turning into the digital haves and have nots

i am the staunchest of democrats but i do agree with a mission newt gingrich once had while speaker of the house to put a computer into every child's hand (in the 1990s) in america and he said this is the single most important thing for the usa...he was right and it disturbs me that clinton and gore did not take that to heart

if george bush puts a computer into every american's hand, i will vote for him next time and even put up election placards

[ftaok]

Jeff,

I hear you on all of those issues, but I don't think that it's in Apple's best interest to provide $500 Macs. The only way they can afford to sell $500 Macs is to lower the quality to the point where it's detrimental to the image of Apple.

Are things that bad out in California these days? I went to Drexel in Philly and you were required to have access to a Mac in order to go to school. Most students had their own Macs. Yes, Drexel is a private university, but very few students would fall in the category that I would classify as "RICH".

I know that the cost of living out in California is ridiculous, but if you don't want to move, then you have to put up with the situation.

And as for Macs costing too much, I beg to differ. There was some guy who bought 2 new iBooks priced at $800 a piece. That's pretty affordable for a relatively modern Mac. But if price is really that big an issue, then a PC is the only way to go. Apple can't compete against the Wintel world on price alone.

[spikey]

Originally posted by jefhatfield


we are not all upper middle class and the majority of americans cannot afford a mac

i call for an ultra inexpensive mac which is geared for the starving college student...something around 500 dollars



Thank you, thank you, thank you. Im glad someone in here has realised Apples greatest flaw. This is Bang on, nail on the head sort of stuff. And this is the one reason i wont get a mac within the next 1-2 years, they just dont cater for people who cant afford a mac (like me).



(By the way, although the itanium was an impressive piece of kit in design it was really software and intels lack of knowledge in that field which lets it down. So the G5 might not be as powerful, but its not as far away as all that.)

[mischief]

The only way to get out of California is to get a "golden parachute". Otherwise you have no spare cash to save up for a relocation fund.

[spikey]

Originally posted by ftaok
Jeff,

I hear you on all of those issues, but I don't think that it's in Apple's best interest to provide $500 Macs. The only way they can afford to sell $500 Macs is to lower the quality to the point where it's detrimental to the image of Apple.

Are things that bad out in California these days? I went to Drexel in Philly and you were required to have access to a Mac in order to go to school. Most students had their own Macs. Yes, Drexel is a private university, but very few students would fall in the category that I would classify as "RICH".

I know that the cost of living out in California is ridiculous, but if you don't want to move, then you have to put up with the situation.

And as for Macs costing too much, I beg to differ. There was some guy who bought 2 new iBooks priced at $800 a piece. That's pretty affordable for a relatively modern Mac. But if price is really that big an issue, then a PC is the only way to go. Apple can't compete against the Wintel world on price alone.


No, the quality doesnt have to be sacrifised but speed does. Ofcourse it wouldnt be as fast, but thats what you get if you make a budget PC.


you miss the point:

"And as for Macs costing too much, I beg to differ. There was some guy who bought 2 new iBooks priced at $800 a piece"


That is not affordable at all, i cannot afford it and most of my friends cant.
Affordable=$500
dont mix up value for money and affordability. value for money is great, but if you cant afford it in the first place then it is no good to you. So value for money is not the issue, price is.

[spikey]

also.

It is probably hard for alot of you to understand what me and jef agree on.
The average mac user is richer than the average PC user, so its likely that alot of you wont understand what a budget computer really is.

[jefhatfield]

california has a lot of rich but way more poor...guess what, since reagan, there has been no middle class

i say apple should have three markets, the upper, the imac and ibook, and a student market

i too graduated from a private university and i could tell you one thing, there were no working class people there from what i could see...everyone was dressed nice and the parking lot was full of mercedes, bmw's, and nice suv's...each college class was 700-1400 dollars each!

but we have a huge population of african americans, recent asians, and hispanics who would never even consider a drexel or a stanford in their wildest dreams

...it's off to junior college for two years for the AA/AS, then transfer to a state or uc (among the most affordable in the world) but the cost of living makes a mac as an added tool impossible) it is hard enough being a minority and trying to go to college, but these folks often come from countries that have a per capita income of around 3,000 or less (on top of struggling with english and having a grocery bill which was more than their rent)...and not to mention american born poor people struggling thru school

in the old days, apple gave a 30 percent discount on their gear to students, but that was many years ago

i am sure you are very intelligent, but you are RICH compared to many of the san jose state students that come from poor areas of the world...i use san jose state as an example but there is a sizeable poor vietnamese population that goes to uc berkeley nearby..i volunteer as a social worker for ghetto kids (mostly) who are hiv positive and hooked on heroin and they are no more able to buy a mac than buy a lear jet...i grew up comfortable and had no idea that there were so many poor in our country until i left beautiful sururban monterey and went to state college at cal poly san luis obispo where i met tons of working students who struggled like crazy and did not have a dime from their parents...in the same town was this community college for the local rich and those kids at cuseta college were rich and living at home and after two years were bound for some private university like stanford or usc...they would only resort to cal poly if they did not have the grades or money to go private...we normal cal poly students used to have the cuesta college kids supply the beer and pizzas because 9 times out of ten, they had the MONEY...i know i am ranting, i don't hate rich people...i just think we should all get a chance in life

maybe our nation should have a social program which buys macs at full price and provides them to the ultra poor

cal state university monterey bay in marina, ca has all their students have computers and there is this non-profit in that city that will supply any student who is not equipped with a machine...without them, some students would not be able do download assignments or take part in the digital education of csu monterey (america's first all wired campus, 1994)

and yes, to reiterate, there are so many poor in california and california is hell of an expensive place to live...santa clara county where san jose state is is among one of america's most expensive counties to live in

[ftaok]

Originally posted by spikey
That is not affordable at all, i cannot afford it and most of my friends cant.
Affordable=$500
dont mix up value for money and affordability. value for money is great, but if you cant afford it in the first place then it is no good to you. So value for money is not the issue, price is. I am by no means rich. In my opinion, if you can't afford an $800 computer, then maybe you should be working instead of playing on a computer. Unless of course, your job is in the computer field.

Seriously though, $800 is affordable. $500 is even more so. OK, you can afford a $500 computer. But there's a guy that can only afford a $300 one. What's he gonna do?

If you can't afford a computer, you could always go to the library to use their's. Or you could pick up a used one. Apple can't compete in the ultra low end marketplace. They'd get creamed.

If this sounds harsh, sorry. Maybe I'm just too damned cynical. That East Coast upbringing and all.

[ftaok]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
california has a lot of rich but way more poor...guess what, since reagan, there has been no middle class

i say apple should have three markets, the upper, the imac and ibook, and a student market

...snip...Jeff,

I too, am a minority. I understand that. And I understand that it sucks being poor. I'm lucky enough to not have had to deal with that. My parents, had to busts their asses to provide for me and my siblings.

I'm just saying that it's not Apple's responsibility to cater to the lower class. Apple has responsibilities to the shareholders first. If anything, it's the state government that has to step up to the plate in California.

Anyways, this seems to have gotten way off topic. What was the topic in the first place?

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by ftaok
Jeff,

I too, am a minority. I understand that. And I understand that it sucks being poor. I'm lucky enough to not have had to deal with that. My parents, had to busts their asses to provide for me and my siblings.

I'm just saying that it's not Apple's responsibility to cater to the lower class. Apple has responsibilities to the shareholders first. If anything, it's the state government that has to step up to the plate in California.

Anyways, this seems to have gotten way off topic. What was the topic in the first place?

something about g5, i think;)

i think you are right in that it is the responisibility of the us government and not apple to make sure the usa does not fall behind anybody else in computing

i am in the IT field and i am very cynical about the whole high tech industry, which is healthy, but a more affordable mac would also, im my opinion, help apple in two ways

1) it would build up market share and and approach that sweet spot you mentioned

2) it would introduce a whole new group of users to the apple, many of whom would probably stick to apple for good, and in the end, the shareholders would become happier

i was lucky enough to study abroad during my undergrad years and go to the university of london and in england i saw students so poor that it even made the poor students in america look rich...of course in those days there were no computers in schools, but if the economy of england is as bad now as it was then (1985), i would hate to think what it would be like for the poorer students in england to try and afford a mac

off topic - doesn't drexel have a great basketball team and are you guys in the ncaa now? cal poly or golden gate univ., my two schools, are not ncaa material since one is too small and the other only has a soccor team (i could be mixing up drexel university with clyde drexler the basketball player, though:p )

excuse me since i am this 5'7" dude and i don't know basketball too well but i always root for 5'7" nba player sped webb!!

[ftaok]

Jeff,

To answer your NCAA questions.

Drexel used to be a perennial NCAA Tourney entry back when I was attending. I think we made it to the Tourney 4 out of the 5 years I attended. We're a pretty small school that plays in one of the smaller conferences (Colonial Conference). We didn't win our conference this year, so "NO SOUP FOR US". Winning the conference is our only way into the Tourney.

So in a nutshell, I think that you had Drexel mixed up with Clyde. Very likely.

fyi - Drexel is in Philadelphia and is mainly known for it's Engineering College. The Business School is developing a reputation as well. But Engineering is the bread and butter program.

[mischief]

And don't just say: "Moto OF COURSE!" Cuz that's the easy way out. We have NO proof one way or the other. Hate to just cut BACK TO the topic like that.......:rolleyes:


(throws up hands and walks away muttering)

That's it, no more houkah for you guys before logging in.......

[Dunepilot]

Originally posted by jefhatfield



i am in the IT field and i am very cynical about the whole high tech industry, which is healthy, but a more affordable mac would also, im my opinion, help apple in two ways

1) it would build up market share and and approach that sweet spot you mentioned

2) it would introduce a whole new group of users to the apple, many of whom would probably stick to apple for good, and in the end, the shareholders would become happier

i was lucky enough to study abroad during my undergrad years and go to the university of london and in england i saw students so poor that it even made the poor students in america look rich...of course in those days there were no computers in schools, but if the economy of england is as bad now as it was then (1985), i would hate to think what it would be like for the poorer students in england to try and afford a mac

Sorry to say it, but this is never going to happen. If Apple produced a cheap Student Mac (which, of course, the iMac is supposed to be), it would invariably have a G3 on the basis of cost, and therefore not run OS X properly. All Apple cares about right now is getting OS 9 performance and better in OS X and you won't get close on anything apart from a fast (ideally dual) G4 or better.

Also, students in Britain were a lot better off in 1985 than they are now - there used to be a system of grants that Blair so kindly replaced with Fees.

I'm looking at £4500 fees for my postgrad course next year.

However, I may still buy a new Mac this summer if I can get funding from somewhere for next year's course........ Anyone wanna help me?:D

[jefhatfield]

hey, if your college even makes it once to any ncaa tourney, that is really great

to my knowledge, cal poly has never been there

i just checked out drexel's site to see about ncaa stuff just now but saw your great engineering program...wow, that is the most rigorous stuff i have ever seen outside of stanford/mit/cooper union

the national radio, abcnews/kgo, said that the northeast will become the most dominant high tech sector in the usa and one day surpass san jose and texas, who lead the high tech industry right now

i could see drexel being right in the middle of that new high tech revolution that is supposed to seek new homes for silicon valley/texas companies moving out of the san jose & texas areas to the east coast (i wonder who greased whose palms for that one...he he)

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by jefhatfield


something about g5, i think;)

i think you are right in that it is the responisibility of the us government and not apple to make sure the usa does not fall behind anybody else in computing

i am in the IT field and i am very cynical about the whole high tech industry, which is healthy, but a more affordable mac would also, im my opinion, help apple in two ways

1) it would build up market share and and approach that sweet spot you mentioned

2) it would introduce a whole new group of users to the apple, many of whom would probably stick to apple for good, and in the end, the shareholders would become happier

i was lucky enough to study abroad during my undergrad years and go to the university of london and in england i saw students so poor that it even made the poor students in america look rich...of course in those days there were no computers in schools, but if the economy of england is as bad now as it was then (1985), i would hate to think what it would be like for the poorer students in england to try and afford a mac

This has been a hotly debated topic for a long time:
Should Apple drop prices and gain more market share, or should they maintain their prices and keep their high profit margins?

I think the idea of even lower educational pricing is a great idea (since I'm both a student and a staff member at a four-year university :D ).
If more states followed the example of Maine and made huge purchases to provide computers for their students Apple would be doing great, but we all saw the hub-bub created over the Maine deal.

It comes down to image. Apple has a reputation for being expensive, but not necessarily high-value. People don't understand why one computer should cost so much more than another. People also think that you can't upgrade or tinker with Macs, that you're stuck with what Apple's hardware for as long as you have the machine. But then again, they would rather let people think that and have them buy from Apple rather than outside sources.

I'm on the fence with this one. Lower priced Macs would be great, but not if it creates lower quality machines. Let eMachines, Gateway and the rest make cheap (price and quality) machines.

[mischief]

Will you please do a Thread in General for cost concerns?

Or at least tack an on-topic guess on the end of your collegic critique?

Jeez guys, I've come to expect more of you two.:rolleyes:

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU


This has been a hotly debated topic for a long time:
Should Apple drop prices and gain more market share, or should they maintain their prices and keep their high profit margins?

I think the idea of even lower educational pricing is a great idea (since I'm both a student and a staff member at a four-year university :D ).
If more states followed the example of Maine and made huge purchases to provide computers for their students Apple would be doing great, but we all saw the hub-bub created over the Maine deal.

It comes down to image. Apple has a reputation for being expensive, but not necessarily high-value. People don't understand why one computer should cost so much more than another. People also think that you can't upgrade or tinker with Macs, that you're stuck with what Apple's hardware for as long as you have the machine. But then again, they would rather let people think that and have them buy from Apple rather than outside sources.

I'm on the fence with this one. Lower priced Macs would be great, but not if it creates lower quality machines. Let eMachines, Gateway and the rest make cheap (price and quality) machines.

but apple has already used usb (an intel creation), the pc motherboard standard (universal motherboard architecture), and have used vga - another pc industry standard...and not to mention that "U" word instead of using it's own patented/copyrighted code it used to used for classic

...and the quality is still high, so apple should and could take a chance for more market share and go for that "sweet spot" which is where a lower priced computer is

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by mischief
Will you please do a Thread in General for cost concerns?

Or at least tack an on-topic guess on the end of your collegic critique?

Jeez guys, I've come to expect more of you two.:rolleyes:

Sorry, just following the path the thread had diverted off...

Ummm, the G5 will be really *neat* when it comes out. Uhhh, it will be a Dorito running at 10Hz, but with infinite flavor potential...or something. :p

[ftaok]

This is my all-time favorite thread. It has branches talking about all my favorite subjects.

Who's making the G5 --- I've posted this in other threads, so I'm gonna rehash it again. If you look at Motorola's PPC Road Map, you'll see that the G5 is not a desktop chip. It's designed for the embedded market. My guess is that Apple will continue to use the G4 in the consumer Macs and use IBM's G5 (or whatever they want to call it) for the pro line. That's just my theory, which is based only on conjecture and voodoo.

NCAA Tourney --- The thing I like about Drexel's program is that they aren't satisfied with being a big fish in a little pond. When I was attending (1991-1996), we were in the NAC. Small conference, but it was either us or Delaware that was getting the automatic bid. We've since moved into the Colonial Conference, which is a slightly better conference. Eventually, I would like to see Drexel being the number one team in the Big East. But that may only be a pipe dream.

Apple business policy --- I personally think that Apple has hit the sweet spot in terms of market share and profitability. Would I like to see 10% market share? YES. Would I like to see 15% profit margins? YES. Do I think Apple can get both? Sadly, no. Steve Jobs is a PR genius and he's responsible for saving the current iteration of Apple. I think he's doing as well as anyone could do. Microsoft's dominance is the main reason that the market share is where it's at.

Mac prices --- I think they affordable to most families. Could they be more affordable? YES. But they're selling them as fast as they can make them. So you can't blame them for the price that they've set. I don't think that Apple can make a $500 Mac that would still be a Mac. Maybe if they removed Firewire and used bottom of the barrel parts, they could do it, but I think it would hurt their brand image more than it would help in the bottom line.

Man, I really should get back to work.:D

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by ftaok
Man, I really should get back to work.:D

Work...what's that? ;)

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU


Work...what's that? ;)

i have a valid excuse...i am a techie and work when there is a "fire" and my wife drove home from her job with the emergency brake up so i am waiting for her car to get out of the shop so i can go my IT clients

hey, check out the new thread i started so we can keep this thread only on the "mythical" g5

[mischief]

not to share my stash BEFORE starting a discussion.

I'm of the mind that it'll be an IBM chip as well.........Moto's 8xxx series just doesn't look like a desktop chip.

If you want a generic PPC go look at the other chaotic thread I started about "a new vision."

[spikey]

Originally posted by ftaok
I am by no means rich. In my opinion, if you can't afford an $800 computer, then maybe you should be working instead of playing on a computer. Unless of course, your job is in the computer field.

Seriously though, $800 is affordable. $500 is even more so. OK, you can afford a $500 computer. But there's a guy that can only afford a $300 one. What's he gonna do?

If you can't afford a computer, you could always go to the library to use their's. Or you could pick up a used one. Apple can't compete in the ultra low end marketplace. They'd get creamed.

If this sounds harsh, sorry. Maybe I'm just too damned cynical. That East Coast upbringing and all.


The guy who cant afford a $300 computer has realised (or in a case like yours should have realised) that there isnt a market which would give profit for the company that he would buy off. It would also damage the reputation of that company and cripple the consumers attitude towards them.
If you had a brain then you would have thought of this, but dont worry here at macrumors were not the sorts to judge you.

A $500 PC would allow the company to create a little profit, but more importantly broaden the range of their user base. This is exactly what apple needs seeing as they dont have many fans. Hence proving that there is a market for a $500 user and also that unless you sort out your intellect defficiency you will lead a life of stupidity and right-wing ignorance.

Apple wouldnt get creamed in a low end market, the majority of the people in that marlet want a USABLE computer not one which has Hz.

[ed note: Ridiculously unneccessary explicatives/rant/personal attack removed. ]

[jefhatfield]

i think ftaok is not the one you need to go after, this person is a fellow mac user but (possibly) came from a more privelidged background than you or me, that's all (his college is kind of like john123's ivy league institution so he may have a different perspective than us non ivy leaguers/oxbridgers)

300 dollars to him is just seen as different to you or me, that's all

i too was a little privelidged, but got out of the house at 18 and it has, predictably so, been a struggle and i am glad...it is the basis for my more liberal viewpoints...before that as a kid, i was an ignorant who thought everybody had enough money for bills, computers, etc...

just outside of silicon valley where i am at, times are very hard and some techie are volunteering for free to keep their skills up

now if we get some pc using-mac hater who has all the facts wrong, then i will jump on them like you and the rest of the mac users:D

ps - you started something with this anti zealot thing, the only thing that burns me up more than an ignorant pc user is someone who thinks steve jobs walks on water and that apple can do no wrong (and that somehow, us rumor board people have "no excuse" to go after apple if they don't deliver) any even handed person is truly an anti-zealot

jef

[mischief]

Jeez.......My GM's used to get on my case for not leaving recognizeable pieces of the NPC's ............it looked kinda like that post......scorched earth. Ah the fun of combined spell FX.


"Uh.....3 weapons FX, 2 Hexes, a Fireball and a lightning strike.....(chews pencil)....carry the two...multiply for level.....round up.....Hah! 52 D6!":D :eek:

"That'll teach ya to kill me in the first ten minutes!":D

[Catfish_Man]

Originally posted by spikey

(By the way, although the itanium was an impressive piece of kit in design it was really software and intels lack of knowledge in that field which lets it down. So the G5 might not be as powerful, but its not as far away as all that.)

I'm not saying the Itanium's that great (it's not, compared to the competition), but it's targeted at people who think a 10,000 dollar computer is cheap. The G5 isn't. I think the G5 will give a better price/performance ratio, and *much* better power consumption, but worse overall performance. It's like comparing a Mazda RX7 to a Ferrari. The Ferrari's going to win, but it costs an insane amount, and the RX7 still puts up a pretty good fight.

[ftaok]

Originally posted by spikey
The guy who cant afford a $300 computer has realised (or in a case like yours should have realised) that there isnt a market which would give profit for the company that he would buy off. It would also damage the reputation of that company and cripple the consumers attitude towards them.
If you had a brain then you would have thought of this, but dont worry here at macrumors were not the sorts to judge you.

A $500 PC would allow the company to create a little profit, but more importantly broaden the range of their user base. This is exactly what apple needs seeing as they dont have many fans. Hence proving that there is a market for a $500 user and also that unless you sort out your intellect defficiency you will lead a life of stupidity and right-wing ignorance.

Apple wouldnt get creamed in a low end market, the majority of the people in that marlet want a USABLE computer not one which has Hz.

[ed note: Ridiculously unneccessary explicatives/rant/personal attack removed. ] How do you know for sure that Apple can make a profit by selling $500 Macs? Hey, if Apple thinks that they can make money in the ultra-low end market, they would go after it. It's their responsibilty to the shareholders to make money.

What exactly would be the specs on a $500 Mac? 300 Mhz G3? 5 GB HD? 64 MB RAM? Not exactly the type of computer that Apple wants for it's image.

Apple is better off leaving the low end market to guys like eMachines and PeoplePC. I don't see Dell, Gateway, or Compaq selling $500 computers (at least not advertised).

Just a note - right after 9/11, Apple was offering iMacs for $500 (or was it $400) to NYC and DC people affected by the attacks. I think that they said that they would be taking a loss for each machine sold. Apple wouldn't be making any money at all selling at $500.

BTW, I don't see anything that you've posted that "proves" anything. Just because you (and some others) would like a $500 Mac doesn't mean there's a feasible market there. Hell, I'd like a $500 Mac too, but I'm not gonna hold my breath waiting.

BTW2, I've been accused of many things (i.e. narrow-minded, obnoxious, know-it-all, etc.), but I think you're the first to brand me as being "right-wing". That's a new one. Personally, I like to think of myself as being right down the middle, but maybe I'm getting older. Oh well.

[Wry Cooter]

Originally posted by Mac_User


ONE LAST THING
Anyone notice Apple Edu. Store is having additional price drops? Powermacs get an ADDITIONAL 50 to 100 dollars off, and powerbooks, ibooks, and the old iMac.

Apple is really trying to take a big lead in that area, i guess.

Its educational buying season.

Apple has to stay aggressive in this market, as there are plenty of Superintendants that would and could easily pass a Wintel only rule for their district, with or without a kickback from Michael Dell. Or college bookstores that would simply chose to simplify their stock.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by ftaok
How do you know for sure that Apple can make a profit by selling $500 Macs? Hey, if Apple thinks that they can make money in the ultra-low end market, they would go after it. It's their responsibilty to the shareholders to make money.

What exactly would be the specs on a $500 Mac? 300 Mhz G3? 5 GB HD? 64 MB RAM? Not exactly the type of computer that Apple wants for it's image.

Apple is better off leaving the low end market to guys like eMachines and PeoplePC. I don't see Dell, Gateway, or Compaq selling $500 computers (at least not advertised).

Just a note - right after 9/11, Apple was offering iMacs for $500 (or was it $400) to NYC and DC people affected by the attacks. I think that they said that they would be taking a loss for each machine sold. Apple wouldn't be making any money at all selling at $500.

BTW, I don't see anything that you've posted that "proves" anything. Just because you (and some others) would like a $500 Mac doesn't mean there's a feasible market there. Hell, I'd like a $500 Mac too, but I'm not gonna hold my breath waiting.

BTW2, I've been accused of many things (i.e. narrow-minded, obnoxious, know-it-all, etc.), but I think you're the first to brand me as being "right-wing". That's a new one. Personally, I like to think of myself as being right down the middle, but maybe I'm getting older. Oh well.

as an engineer with my own business, i am up on the prices of ram and processors in the silicon valley, and there is no problem with a 500 mhz, 128 RAM machines in that range, but the hard drive price is what is the key...it would be a small hard drive and that would look silly (to some...like 8 GB)

and there would probably be only one firewire port and one usb port and no composite video out

...and forget about any titanium shell or fancy finishes...that said, it is possible and i am sure apple has considered the entry level market for at least two years and they probably have several plans if they needed to mobilize their company to fill this market

they are in the 600+ dollar range with their educational imac, so it is just a little more to make a machine around 500 dollars or so a reality...but this will take time, of course

jef...my 2 1/2 cents

[dpaxton]

If one looks at the rapidio offered by moto and ibm you can see an excellent inter-processor comm/message bus and general I/O (ibm sells a 32 crossbar switch that is quite amazing). If apple could increase its mp to 8 instead of two like linux we would have and ideal 8 way option for a new motherboard. The moto 8540 would be a very good southbridge replacing some enet with usb 2 and 1394 etc. Since connector speeds can be 800mhz why not leave the option for cpu upgrades as cards. Since I/O takes place on rapidio leave the 333mhz ddram as local memory on the card. The problem with rims or dims is they do hit the 800mhz wall for I/O. These processors will not see this for a while so just put two low profile sodims for a 128 bit bus. With pcix at 8 slots I would not buy agp again. This would be a nice inexpensive machine with one cpu card, two dims at 256meg each and some global dims for I/O cache. I could up the number of cpu cards and sodimm size for some time. This does not sound like the corperate ideal machine that one replaces every year but it sounds good to me. Ideas?

[jefhatfield]

i think a cpu card might be expensive due to the cache architecture involved...correct me if i am wrong...i am a pc side guy so i don't know how that would translate into a moto chip

i believe a lot of apple's high cost on their machines is their markup which they could keep on the rest of their machines, but lower the markup for a low cost machine with a g3 or g4

g5, or course, would be apple's top machine, if they even call it that

[mischief]

Although the cost of production would go up I'd love to see an Apple mobo with modular parts. Not just the processor, but the clock chip, HD Host circuitry, RAM slots as a daughterboard, etc.

I'd love to buy 1 case from Apple and swap parts for 10 years. I'd even be happy to buy the parts from Apple.

I have looked around on Moto's site and their component mobo parts make me salivate. Put an IBM 10Ghz bus controller chip on a Moto mobo and you'd have a PPC that'd leave any wintel machine wetting itself.

I have heard rumors to the effect that Apple will go to an all MP architecture. This means that for Apple to stay on target either they or IBM will have to acquire rights to manufacture with Altivec.

The line was described as having from 4 to 8 G5 processors. Adding Altivec and the 32 bar tech to IBM's 750FX G3 would give us a transitional chip quickly that could approach this model.

dpaxton, could you look over the "A New Vision" thread and comment please?

[dpaxton]

One would need to start with the common problems seen with our current hw and see what others have as solutions. Rapidio is a great way to get around the data bottlenecks on motherboard. Look at rapidio.org for configurations. At 512MB per link per sec. 8 would give 4 gigs throughput. Crossbar switches like the IBM chip is what the connectionist gurus of the 80's dreamed of. It would be nice to see the linux ppc guys allow all data I/O and message passing to cross this bus only in the machine. This would allow for nodes to handle I/O, processing, storage etc. PCI-X would become obsolete quickly but a cheap way for expansion with a quick bus that would be better than AGP. All of this could be implamented from a basic number of building blocks (inexpensive) to a large fine grained system. Discussion on cache sizes, ddr, bus width, number of AGP slots etc. would be reduced to a fewer number of variables since overall throughput has increased dramatically.

[mischief]

Thanx. That's very useful!

So a good start would be a 2/4/8 processor card with DDR slots dedicated per processor like a L4 cache sitting on an 8x Rapid I/O mobo running at (say) 250 with PCIx and modular comm and I/O port cards.

Use of Apollo G4's would make for swift development. Is there some way to do a clock-chip assembly that "adapts" to make the best of the attatched modules? Having modules that step their cycles up or down to optimize performance would make modularity much easier.

[dpaxton]

Processor card should be single with an improved mem bus for local card access. My thought normally dwellson the problem of the mem bottleneck. I do like the rambus system but they do use ten percent of the die for dual port and registers. With the current density I do think that this works but the raw I/O speed creates a power hog. I would like to see a dual ddr 16 bit bus on bga. At 333 to 512MHZ a 16 chip back card array would give two independent 128 bit buses. One used for I/O and the other to deliver a real time accurate instruction delivery of over 3 gigaops. A simplified cache internaly with an on chip bus at 256 bits would solve at least a few years of the bottleneck. No need to make reworked memory for rapidio. All on chip. Single cpu, boot flash and 16 mem chips. Cheap. All bus signals to and fro the card are rapidio. I would rather see a 16 pair rapidio for the cpu for a total of 8gig per sec. If all card slots and "bridge" chips are on the same 16 pairs for a dynamic routing option. This does elude to an on board dual port mem for ramdacs. Another single chips solution with the mutliple processors handling the grapics much faster than planed specialty chips and AGP buses etc.

[mischief]

Mobo arranged vertically with slots for processor cards which are simply RAM and a G4 per card. From there the mobo is run from one of IBM's 10Ghz switch chip. It'd be like having a 10Ghz bus @64Bits wide.

[dpaxton]

Moto is incorperating rapidio in processor. This would be cheaper than athe dual expensive chip option. The ibm chip has 32 in and 32 out. Each link is 2ghz, 512 MB per sec. totaling 16 GB per sec. With 16 mem chips each at 16 bits at 512 MHZ one attains balance assuming the individual card needs or can use all of the I/O. With muliple cards and data coming from drives etc. a load balanced approach like a normal network would be realized. This sytem would ideally allow for 16GHZ processors, 2GHZ mem ( I think I am dreaming about the mem ) with double clock radipio. If these actually could run at 50% alu utilization, 8 32 bit instructions can give a total of 1 teraop for the system. But this is a discussion of the cpu internals. Right now data bottlenecks are the biggest woe of all users. This spans from modem/broadband to the hard drive to our lousy cpu dram bus. It would be good though to use an off the shelf expensive option with all of the parts avaliable now. Linux driver it and then later do the asic work. If one goes that route then go ahead and use mips, majic ( love this one ) or any other core that could be used later in the asic.