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MacRumors
Mar 26, 2007, 12:27 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Adobe is planning a media event (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/03/05/adobe-to-ship-cs3-march-27th/) on March 27th (Tuesday) to announce Creative Suite 3 pricing and availability. Amazon jumped the gun a little and posted a few pages (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FAdobe-Creative-Suites-Master-Collection%2Fdp%2FB000NDIBJQ%3Fie%3DUTF8%26qid%3D1174857739%26sr%3D1-20&tag=weeno&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) revealing product specs and pricing for several of the CS3 products with ship dates of April 20th and July 1st, depending on the product.

We've received pricing information for the entire Adobe CS3 line of products and included it in a table below:

Click for table (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/03/26/adobe-creative-suite-3-cs3-pricing-and-upgrades/)

Prices represent full retail prices and products are linked to Amazon descriptions where applicable. "up"-links denote links to upgrade-products at Amazon. This upgrade pricing (not listed above) is available to owners of earlier versions of Adobe software. To see upgrade prices and see if you can qualify for these updates, see this full upgrade pricing table (http://images.macrumors.com/article/2007/03/26/upgradepricing.png).

Adobe's new CS3 bundles can be confusing, so to see what is included in each bundle, refer to this matrix:

http://images.macrumors.com/article/2007/03/26/matrix.png



Multimedia
Mar 26, 2007, 12:30 AM
I'll be going academic.

Shagrat
Mar 26, 2007, 12:31 AM
I'll be going academic.

Would that I could!

ElderscrollsV
Mar 26, 2007, 12:32 AM
Is CS3 running native on the intel machines?

arn
Mar 26, 2007, 12:32 AM
Is CS3 running native on the intel machines?

yes.

arn

siurpeeman
Mar 26, 2007, 12:33 AM
I'll be going academic.

are you academic?

GFLPraxis
Mar 26, 2007, 12:33 AM
Ugh at the price hike. I was planning to buy one of the Premium packages with Academic pricing because I assumed the current Creative Suite CS2 Premium was the same price. But it looks like Creative Suite CS2 Premium is the price of the new STANDARD packages.


Oh well. Can't wait to see Academic pricing.

Doctor Q
Mar 26, 2007, 12:34 AM
I'm sure glad our school buys in volume at academic prices. Those numbers have a lot of digits in them!

Multimedia
Mar 26, 2007, 12:35 AM
are you academic?Yes I am.

ModestPenguin
Mar 26, 2007, 12:36 AM
Wow. Thats um....really freaking expensive. Thank the lords for academia.

Shagrat
Mar 26, 2007, 12:36 AM
Note that the only combination of Photoshop and Dreamweaver is (natch!) the Master edition...

good pricing guys...the only two items I would ACTUALLY want, and I would have to buy the lot.


Now where's that Photoshop Killer that Apple have had up their sleeves for the last few years????

iMacZealot
Mar 26, 2007, 12:37 AM
I'll be going academic.

Can individual students purchase it at a lower price, or is it just for educational institutions purchasing it?

Multimedia
Mar 26, 2007, 12:38 AM
Can individual students purchase it at a lower price, or is it just for educational institutions purchasing it?Individual students too.

dornoforpyros
Mar 26, 2007, 12:39 AM
I'm just thrilled to see that Flash & Dreamweaver still look like them old selves, it's too soon to say until I get em installed and opened, but it appears Adobe didn't bastardize them *knock wood*

iMacZealot
Mar 26, 2007, 12:40 AM
Individual students too.

Could they when CS2 was(is) out? I don't recall it.

Shagrat
Mar 26, 2007, 12:41 AM
Individual students too.

Er, I'm not a student, so I'm, out, then.

iWeb it is, then..

kitki83
Mar 26, 2007, 12:41 AM
Wow those prices are stupiedly to high for starving designers. I mean thats alot of money.

Good thing I went back to school I hope I can qualify for academic discount.

Shagrat
Mar 26, 2007, 12:43 AM
Umm I think your confused, I see Dreamweaver & Photoshop combos in at least 3 of the packages (Design Premium, Web Premium, Master)

I'm just thrilled to see that Flash & Dreamweaver still look like them old selves, it's too soon to say until I get em installed and opened, but it appears Adobe didn't bastardize them *knock wood*

Check the matrix png in the first post...

didn't check further than that, yet...

bigbossbmb
Mar 26, 2007, 12:44 AM
good to hear the ship date is April 20th... I was worried it would be later. I will be hitting up a friend for employee discount, so luckily these prices don't apply to me. :D

dornoforpyros
Mar 26, 2007, 12:45 AM
Check the matrix png in the first post...

didn't check further than that, yet...

yeah my mistake, just trying to figure out what the difference between the regular and the "extended" versions of photoshop are. But it looks to me that the web premium package is what I'm gonna be needing.

Freg3000
Mar 26, 2007, 12:45 AM
Can individual students purchase it at a lower price, or is it just for educational institutions purchasing it?

Individuals can purchase at academic pricing.

Looks like Production Premium is the best fit for me, hopefully the academic pricing is reasonable.... :)

Shagrat
Mar 26, 2007, 12:47 AM
Individuals can purchase at academic pricing.

Looks like Production Premium is the best fit for me, hopefully the academic pricing is reasonable.... :)

But only if they qualify as students...?!?!?

tveric
Mar 26, 2007, 12:48 AM
Anyone else notice that Amazon shows the CS3 suites as only available for Windows? They're all available for pre-order...

There's a Mac version of Photoshop CS3 listed but that's not even in the pre-order stage; just says "we'll email you when it's available". Odd.

Macky-Mac
Mar 26, 2007, 12:49 AM
pretty pricey upgrades

davester
Mar 26, 2007, 12:51 AM
Adobe appears to have graduated from the Microsoft Vista School Of Confusing Upgrades.

nkadlac
Mar 26, 2007, 12:53 AM
Note that the only combination of Photoshop and Dreamweaver is (natch!) the Master edition...

good pricing guys...the only two items I would ACTUALLY want, and I would have to buy the lot.

Not sure where you're basing this off of...If for some reason the rumors do end up being true, then you could get both photoshop/dreamweaver in the web bundles.

I think the prices are pretty competitive overall. I was spending more when buying products from both Adobe and Macromedia as individual companies.

kinless
Mar 26, 2007, 12:55 AM
Not sure where you're basing this off of...If for some reason the rumors do end up being true, then you could get both photoshop/dreamweaver in the web bundles.

There's conflicting information on Amazon. The matrix chart shows the Web Premium without Photoshop, but their description mentions having Photoshop, so we won't know for sure until Tuesday.

nagromme
Mar 26, 2007, 12:57 AM
I can get "the works"--Web Premium bundle--for $500 (upgrade). Everything I need (and more).

I am happy :) This (upgrade) pricing seems LOW to me.

arn
Mar 26, 2007, 12:58 AM
There's conflicting information on Amazon. The matrix chart shows the Web Premium without Photoshop, but their description mentions having Photoshop, so we won't know for sure until Tuesday.

The Matrix shows Adobe Photoshop CS3 Extended in the Web Premium.

So there are 3 bundles with Photoshop CS3 Extended and 1 bundle with Photoshop CS3.

Photoshop CS3 Extended is regular Photoshop CS3 + 3D and Video features.

See: http://www.macrumors.com/2007/03/08/adobe-photoshop-cs3-extended-coming-soon/

diogowerner
Mar 26, 2007, 01:01 AM
you mean "slow Mac Pro sales"...

Rhema
Mar 26, 2007, 01:08 AM
So who is planning on buying the Master Collection?

I probably will end up doing it.....just got to convince my wife..haha.

I'm also planning on buying a refurbed MBP 17inch. Hopefully I can put that off a little until Leopard comes out.

Anyways..yeah..i'm going to be broke soon.

GFLPraxis
Mar 26, 2007, 01:12 AM
Note that the only combination of Photoshop and Dreamweaver is (natch!) the Master edition...

good pricing guys...the only two items I would ACTUALLY want, and I would have to buy the lot.


Now where's that Photoshop Killer that Apple have had up their sleeves for the last few years????


What are you talking about? All the Premium packages include Dreamweaver.

rockman2023
Mar 26, 2007, 01:14 AM
Be prepared to sell your first born to afford these packages! Jokes aside, I'm glad they included PS3 Extended in the Web package. When I'm ready to sell my soul to the devil, I think I'll get that one.

I hope the benchmarks for CS3 are more than good for C2D MBPs. This is my only Intel Machine:o

Tax return -> Bank -> Save up to move out?
Tax return -> CS3 Bundle -> Better design tools?

Decisions, decisions...

bretm
Mar 26, 2007, 01:18 AM
I'm sure glad our school buys in volume at academic prices. Those numbers have a lot of digits in them!

Really? I remember when After Effects was $2400.

Multimedia
Mar 26, 2007, 01:20 AM
So who is planning on buying the Master Collection?

I probably will end up doing it.....just got to convince my wife..haha.

I'm also planning on buying a refurbed MBP 17inch. Hopefully I can put that off a little until Leopard comes out.

Anyways..yeah..i'm going to be broke soon.I may. But if I do it may be the last time. That's a lot of money — even at the academic level — to rationalize for only a couple of years. I'll be happy to get the first UB edition and proably live with it for at least two systems worth of time. Maybe when 10.7 LION ships I'll "upgrade" again. But maybe never. State of the Art may be more than I'll ever use. Right now I'm thinking of delaying the decision for at least 6 months just to see what it's all about and if I really need more than the late PPC versions with Rosetta. I mainly only use it for ImageReady anyway. I'm back on the first CS and never missed CS2. Also still on Studio MX 2004 and never missed Studio 8.

I'm starting to think of the Master Collection as a 2007 Christmas present from someone in my family who can afford it.

kinless
Mar 26, 2007, 01:20 AM
The Matrix shows Adobe Photoshop CS3 Extended in the Web Premium.

So there are 3 bundles with Photoshop CS3 Extended and 1 bundle with Photoshop CS3.

Photoshop CS3 Extended is regular Photoshop CS3 + 3D and Video features.

Aye, I'm as blind as a bat. My eyes like to skip over the grey lines. Thanks for pointing that out, Arn.

Still, I wish they had a bundle without the extended. I don't need the 3D/Video stuff, but whatevs. I guess it's still cheaper than if I bought PS, DW, Flash, and Acrobat separately. Those are the only apps I need.

dornoforpyros
Mar 26, 2007, 01:27 AM
ahh yes, photoshop cs3 vs photoshop cs3 extended (http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/ps_psext_info.html), yup, web premium it is for me, even though I imagine the canadian price will approach the $1,800 - $2,000 mark.

inkswamp
Mar 26, 2007, 01:32 AM
Adobe appears to have graduated from the Microsoft Vista School Of Confusing Upgrades.

No kidding! And it looks like they didn't miss any school days when it came to the pricing classes either.

And DreamWeaver... bleh... they should be paying people to use that train wreck of an app. :mad:

aafuss1
Mar 26, 2007, 01:46 AM
Is Contribute CS3 going to be a Universal binary? (Contribute 4 wasn't).

Seems like Production Premium supports only the Blu-Ray format-no HD-DVD export unlike DVD Studio Pro.

Xeem
Mar 26, 2007, 01:53 AM
I don't know that I've ever seen a software path quite this tangled before; it would appear that Adobe wants its customers as confused and flustered as possible!

dante@sisna.com
Mar 26, 2007, 02:02 AM
I hope someone from Adobe visits MacRumors.

It is not so much the pricing but the bundled combinations that are just totally terrible.

I am really depressed regarding this release and the pricing.

Adobe needs to take another look at their customer relationships and logic.

No kidding! And it looks like they didn't miss any school days when it came to the pricing classes either.

And DreamWeaver... bleh... they should be paying people to use that train wreck of an app. :mad:

What Don't you Like about Dreamweaver?

It' code is basically clean now, not like older versions, and the interface is generally okay. Besides, for most web designers, the interface is meaningless as we write most of our own code.

mdriftmeyer
Mar 26, 2007, 02:02 AM
are you academic?

One can always audit a class or take a night class from an institution that is qualified and you can get the discount.

I've been thinking of doing a masters in Engineering Management and if so I'll be buying solidThinking and other tools at the academic pricing.

Analog Kid
Mar 26, 2007, 02:08 AM
Can academic suites be upgraded or is it a fresh buy each time?

Wasn't Adobe one of the companies complaining about Apple switching to Intel and forcing yet-another recompile? This seems like a boon for them-- even people who wouldn't need whatever new features there are will be upgrading just to run full speed on their hardware... With these kinds of prices, I think the hardware change will be getting them more buys than just a few extra features in already full-featured apps.

Applenewb
Mar 26, 2007, 02:11 AM
Adobe Home Basic....Adobe Home premium...Adobe Business....Adobe Ultimate would *actually* be less confusing.

MacMyDay
Mar 26, 2007, 02:13 AM
Makes me laugh seeing the price differences between England and America. I'll have to pay £1264 for Adobe Creative Suite 2 Premium Design (with Flash) here, which is nearly $2,500. I wish your software was that cheap here!

dante@sisna.com
Mar 26, 2007, 02:13 AM
Adobe Home Basic....Adobe Home premium...Adobe Business....Adobe Ultimate would *actually* be less confusing.

Yah this is just terrible for those of use trying to stay on the edge -- the project combinations basically force the master upgrade

superleccy
Mar 26, 2007, 02:20 AM
In the non-existent chance that the UK pricing manager for Adobe is reading this, I'd like to remind them that the £:$ exchange rate is presently 1.9648. And no, you can't truncate the digits after the decimal point (although you probably will).

Anticipating another Adobe Brit-rip-off...

SL

Analog Kid
Mar 26, 2007, 02:25 AM
I hope someone from Adobe visits MacRumors.

It is not so much the pricing but the bundled combinations that are just totally terrible.

I am really depressed regarding this release and the pricing.

Adobe needs to take another look at their customer relationships and logic.
Until there's a reasonable competitor out there, Adobe can set their prices how they wish. These are necessary tools for professionals. Notice the insane difference between upgrade and full package pricing? They know that people would be just fine sticking with an outdated version, so they cut back the price there and still get the continuing revenue.

To some extent this makes sense-- there is a lot of value in these mature apps, but there's only a small amount of incremental value in the upgrade. First time buyers pay for all of the engineering in the product and upgraders are paying for what changed since their last purchase.

The people that get burned by this are the hobbyists. If you're not making money by using these apps, you really can't justify the price. That's one of the reasons I also find the package contents so offensive. There are a lot of people who would want Photoshop and the web tools but Adobe makes this really difficult and expensive.

Here's hoping that someone out there is realizing how much money could be made by competing in this space and comes in to keep Adobe honest.

TheAnswer
Mar 26, 2007, 02:31 AM
Yep...looks like I'll stick with CS 1 for a while longer. :rolleyes:
Any rumors on CS4 yet? :p

devilot
Mar 26, 2007, 02:36 AM
Can academic suites be upgraded or is it a fresh buy each time?Nope. Academic end-users must re-purchase the whole suite with each subsequent "upgrade."

superleccy
Mar 26, 2007, 02:37 AM
The people that get burned by this are the hobbyists. If you're not making money by using these apps, you really can't justify the price. That's one of the reasons I also find the package contents so offensive. There are a lot of people who would want Photoshop and the web tools but Adobe makes this really difficult and expensive.

Here's hoping that someone out there is realizing how much money could be made by competing in this space and comes in to keep Adobe honest.

My thoughts exactly.

2 and a half years ago I was a semi-pro (I made about £200/year) and hobbyist graphic designer, but since switching I've had to give that up, due to lack of affordable software of a decent enough quality. Since Macs are "for creative stuff" and "what proper graphics artists use, I find the irony hard to bear.

SL

Pressure
Mar 26, 2007, 02:38 AM
In the non-existent chance that the UK pricing manager for Adobe is reading this, I'd like to remind them that the £:$ exchange rate is presently 1.9648. And no, you can't truncate the digits after the decimal point (although you probably will).

Anticipating another Adobe Brit-rip-off...

SL

Look on the bright side, you guys only have 17.5% VAT ;)

chubad
Mar 26, 2007, 02:39 AM
From the NAPP website:
NAPP found out there’s been a little change in Adobe’s upgrade policy for Photoshop CS3 that will save you some money if you’re working with an older version of Photoshop (like 6.0) and plan to upgrade to CS3.

As of the release of Photoshop CS3, you’ll only be able to upgrade at the standard upgrade price if you have Photoshop 7, CS or CS2. So, if you’re still using Photoshop 6.0 or earlier, Scott Kelby, NAPP president recommends you “upgrade to Photoshop CS2 now (you'll pay something around $169), then you can buy the upgrade to CS3 when it comes out at the regular upgrade price, which will save you literally hundreds of dollars over having to the buy the full version once CS3 ships.”

inkswamp
Mar 26, 2007, 02:40 AM
What Don't you Like about Dreamweaver?

It' code is basically clean now, not like older versions, and the interface is generally okay. Besides, for most web designers, the interface is meaningless as we write most of our own code.

I suppose it's okay if you're doing mom-n-pop sites, but I've dealt with the mess that comes with corporate sites being built on Dreamweaver and I just have a terrible bias against that app. It just makes a mess of things. It doesn't scale well to large sites (from what I've seen) and only really deals with non-dynamic content well. The happiest day of my web coding life was the day I had completely taken our web dept. off DW and switched over to BBEdit.

It may have improved over the last few years, but I have no interest in it. I think a web developer ought to get their hands dirty in code and ought to learn how to manage the kinds of things DW tries to make easy.

superleccy
Mar 26, 2007, 02:42 AM
Look on the bright side, you guys only have 17.5% VAT ;)

Geez... I just did a Wiki and discovered you Danes pay 25%! Man that's rough. :(

mustard
Mar 26, 2007, 02:56 AM
Nope. Academic end-users must re-purchase the whole suite with each subsequent "upgrade."

NOT TRUE - I purchased CS! Premium using an EDU discount and called Adobe to confirm when upgrading to CS2.

I was able to pay the CS2 Premium (Upgrade) price with no problems. Macromedia on the other hand is a different story,

Shagrat
Mar 26, 2007, 02:57 AM
Adobe appears to have graduated from the Microsoft Vista School Of Confusing Upgrades.and of Upgrade Pricing, too

TMay
Mar 26, 2007, 02:57 AM
Anyone have a clue why the Master Collection upgrade versions with asterisks are priced $600 lower? I'd upgrade to Master Collection for $1,399.00 but I can't see myself doing this for $1,999.00.

I have CS Premium 2.3 now and I haven't a clue what the upgrade to Design Premium will actually cost, though I would extrapolate that it will be $999.95.

Is it just me or did Adobe just jump the shark?

ppayne
Mar 26, 2007, 03:04 AM
I wonder how draconian Adobe is likely to be with upgrades? When you upgrade from CS2 to CS3, does the CS2 computer need to be already activated? Does using the CS2 code to activate an upgrade to CS3 render the CS2 license unusable? They can easily put the screws to the marketplace too much and encourage piracy even by valid customers.

A warning to people considering upgrading to those fancy newfangled versions: Adobe has historically refused to let you then upgrade to anything but that version in the future. So you can't ever, say, "upgrade" to CS4 standard version if you bought the super CS3 version, only the same version. Hence, everyone should really consider what kind of buyer's remorse they might feel in the future and consider opting for individual programs.

No more Golive? That sucks -- unless it's a totally different program from when I used it last, I'd use Claris Home Page 3.0 in Classic mode before I used DW, if I could. I fail to see how Adobe and Macromedia joining is a Good Thing if it means that two important programs that competed with each other nicely now melt into one competition-free program that is virtually unopposed in the marketplace. Since GoLive CS2 was the most crash-tastic program I've ever used in OS X, I'll stick with GoLive CS until I see how things shake out. Maybe they'll release it as a stand-alone product.

jonharris200
Mar 26, 2007, 03:29 AM
I think the upgrade prices look pretty decent. :)

I have the rather old and creaking Macromedia MX Studio, and can update to Web Premium for $500. That gives me serious updates to 4 applications (Dreamweaver, Fireworks, Flash, Contribute) and 2 brand new ones (Photoshop Extended, Illustrator). Very happy with this. :)

I'm taking a trip Stateside soon, so this is perfect timing to take advantage of the favourable exchange rate. :)

Bern
Mar 26, 2007, 03:32 AM
Man that all sounds expensive. I might be forced to use Fireworks instead of Photoshop. I've never used it before so have no idea what the limitations will be.

csista
Mar 26, 2007, 03:38 AM
So... Uhhh... Wha? Okay. I'm a bit confused. I have Photoshop CS2 Full, Illustrator CS2 Full, and Studio 8 Academic. Everything in the Web Premium Package except Acrobat. Am I paying $499 or $1399 for the upgrade. Or should I say, am I buying the upgrade or not buying the upgrade?

AlexisV
Mar 26, 2007, 03:40 AM
Terribly terribly expensive.

In my opinion a fair price would be £150 per package, or £300 for the whole suite.

slazareth
Mar 26, 2007, 03:56 AM
looks like I'll be putting $1800 (+tax :( ) on the old credit card. This will be the first huge retail software bundle I've purchased. In the past I've just bought academic versions. Which has been fine, and I could do again, but I graduate on June 1st and I guess its time to start paying the big boy prices since I'm making money off of it. *sigh*

SpaceMagic
Mar 26, 2007, 04:22 AM
I agree with Analog Kid, hobbyists are going to suffer. Those who make casual purchases are certainly going to think twice about buying these apps.

I understand a lot of dev has probably gone into these builds, but with so many alternatives, many of which are OpenSource and free (GIMP when it has CYMK, many many WYSIWYG HTML editors), Adobe might burn itself.

redAPPLE
Mar 26, 2007, 04:25 AM
that naming convention reminds me of m$. i am confused already. :)

lewchenko
Mar 26, 2007, 04:47 AM
Looks like I will be sticking with my exisiting setup. Those prices are a joke.

I dont consider the latest functions or UB to be a must have feature to be honest, despite having an intel machine.

I agree with someone else's post above. These products are worth £150 each or £300 for the full suite. Nothing more.

People who are simply 'getting their credit card' have more money than sense, and should consider whether the benefits are really worth it.

Vote with your wallet and tell Adobe to get stuffed.

biturbomunkie
Mar 26, 2007, 05:01 AM
too many versions, too flipping expensive... :mad:

coolfactor
Mar 26, 2007, 05:15 AM
Anyone else notice that Amazon shows the CS3 suites as only available for Windows? They're all available for pre-order...

There's a Mac version of Photoshop CS3 listed but that's not even in the pre-order stage; just says "we'll email you when it's available". Odd.

Yah, I saw that. Confusing. Maybe Amazon *didn't* jump the gun on the Mac version because they didn't want to p' off the Apple-peeps.

coolfactor
Mar 26, 2007, 05:16 AM
too many versions, too flipping expensive... :mad:

Guess the world isn't learning. Simpler is better. I'm not buying simply because I can't decide what I need. :rolleyes:

koobcamuk
Mar 26, 2007, 05:22 AM
In the non-existent chance that the UK pricing manager for Adobe is reading this, I'd like to remind them that the £:$ exchange rate is presently 1.9648. And no, you can't truncate the digits after the decimal point (although you probably will).

Anticipating another adobe Brit-rip-off...

SL

Anticipating another AMERICAN SOFTWARE Brit-rip-off...

iMikeT
Mar 26, 2007, 05:40 AM
When I get my Mac Pro (obviously Intel), can I install Photoshop CS2 (PPC) and buy an upgrade version of Photoshop CS3 (Intel) and expect it to work natively?

murfle
Mar 26, 2007, 05:59 AM
Hmmmm, I have a windows version of photoshop 5.0, still shrinkwrapped... I don't know how the upgrades work, whether its a full install, just use the old serial, or what... Basically, I'd love to try going the 'upgrade to CS2' route and getting a better deal on CS3... But I have my doubts I can make the move to the Mac version...

Anyone have any idea about this?

AlexisV
Mar 26, 2007, 06:06 AM
Yes - the PPC and Intel versions are combined within one package so your upgrade will detect your Mac Pro and run natively.

DaveTheGrey
Mar 26, 2007, 06:14 AM
Anticipating another AMERICAN SOFTWARE Brit-rip-off...

wtf is american software?
sigh

Stuttter
Mar 26, 2007, 06:20 AM
no mention of an upgrade to design premium. Any one know if this is an oversight or deliberate?

Blue Velvet
Mar 26, 2007, 06:31 AM
I agree with Analog Kid, hobbyists are going to suffer. Those who make casual purchases are certainly going to think twice about buying these apps.

I understand a lot of dev has probably gone into these builds, but with so many alternatives, many of which are OpenSource and free (GIMP when it has CYMK, many many WYSIWYG HTML editors), Adobe might burn itself.



Oh please, all of you, stop with this. These apps are aimed at pros, not dabblers and hobbyists and are priced accordingly. GIMP is no match for Photoshop, CMYK is not the be-all of pro features.

We'll be buying because we have work to do. So if you're making money with this stuff, then the price is a drop in the ocean... even as a freelancer, I could pay for the Design Premium suite with the payment from just one job.

bigandy
Mar 26, 2007, 06:48 AM
There's a good bit of talk about the Academic pricing - is it actually in black and white anywhere?

bigandy wants to know :o

-hh
Mar 26, 2007, 06:51 AM
So... Uhhh... Wha? Okay. I'm a bit confused. I have Photoshop CS2 Full, Illustrator CS2 Full, and Studio 8 Academic. Everything in the Web Premium Package except Acrobat. Am I paying $499 or $1399 for the upgrade. Or should I say, am I buying the upgrade or not buying the upgrade?


Welcome to the "Got Screwed by Adobe" Club.

I picked up an Adobe Bundle a couple of years ago. I have 5 Adobe Apps ... Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, Imageready, Acrobat ... its everything in "Design Standard" except the bundle's name.

When it came time for me to upgrade, I discovered that Adobe dumped that Bundle name, which orphaned my ability to pick up "Bundled" upgrades.

So here I sit with 5 of their products, yet I'm not eligible for any of their current Bundle upgrades because of how they redefined their bundles a couple of years ago. My options are:

$900 if I upgrade through the 'Design Std' Bundle,
$760 if I upgraded my Apps individually,
$400 to upgrade if my old Bundle had the right name.


For the first vs. third, I'm looking at having to pay an extra $500 ($900 vs $400) to effectively "fix" the name of my Bundle.

For the second vs third, I'm paying an extra $360 because Adobe orphaned one of their old bundles.



As complicated as Abobe's upgrade table is, its too bad that they didn't have any provisions for customers who are growing their way up to a bundle to have an incentive to get the bundle ... or some other mechanism to take care of faithful customers who they orphaned by obsoleting Bundle names along the way...


I'd be willing to spend $400 to upgrade everything, but if I'm forced (again) to go piecemeal, I'll continue to do "skip upgrades" and only do incrementally those Apps that I need the upgrade the most. This is precisely why nothing I own right now is at the CS1 revision level...IIRC, it was the first Photoshop upgrade I skipped since somewhere around ...3?

FYI for Adobe: its generally what I find at home that determines if I'm going to buy upgrades for all the computers in the office or not. Lose me at home, and you've lost 6 more in the team pen.


-hh

superleccy
Mar 26, 2007, 06:53 AM
Oh please, all of you, stop with this. These apps are aimed at pros, not dabblers and hobbyists and are priced accordingly. GIMP is no match for Photoshop, CMYK is not the be-all of pro features.

Fine... so where is the "dabbler & hobbyist" graphic design software for the Mac?

OK, so we got Photoshop Elements and (if you can put up with the clunkiness of X11) GIMP, but if you want to do vector graphics and page layouts, then Illustrator is the only game in town. And it's priced beyone the reach of any non-pro - particularly here in the UK.

There is a gap in the market here, and I am frustrated that no company has yet found it profitable enough to try and fill. All I ask is for a bit of affordable software that lets me do what I could do with Corel Draw 6 on the PC 12 years ago.

SL

PS: Yes I have tried the alternatives. Corel Draw XI has been discontinued and doesn't work on Intel (not even under rosetta). Lineform is a joke. Inkscape is a step in the right direction, but that X11 interface is like swimming thru treacle. I'm open to other suggestions.

Mogenshu
Mar 26, 2007, 06:58 AM
So did anyone else notice that all the screenshots have the dark interface. Very dark gray. Do you think that this might be the new theme for leopard? I really want to know the super secret features!!!

Blue Velvet
Mar 26, 2007, 07:06 AM
I'm not the person to ask but isn't Pages good enough for basic layout? I've never used it. I've seen people create nice posters in PowerPoint of all things... you've got PDF creation right there in OSX.

There's also Ragtime and a number of cheaper page layout apps...

As far as vector work is concerned, then something like this? $US95
http://mac.softpedia.com/get/Graphics/EazyDraw.shtml

I've got to be honest, I think many people here think they need more than they need... what 'hobbyist' needs to work with spot colours or have access to many of the features that they don't even know exist?

If you're a genuine student, then there's substantial edu pricing. There's just too much whining from people that don't need this stuff. Most pros aren't going to bat an eyelid; it's part and parcel of their overheads.

superleccy
Mar 26, 2007, 07:30 AM
I'm not the person to ask but isn't Pages good enough for basic layout? I've never used it. I've seen people create nice posters in PowerPoint of all things...

Hrumph. I feel like I've just been told that I'm not old enough to play football with the bigger boys, and that I should go back to my sandpit.

I'll check out your other suggestions, many thanks. But given that you're thinking along the lines of Pages and PowerPoint, I'm not hopeful.

And I'm not a student and never said I was one.

I've got to be honest, I think many people here think they need more than they need... what 'hobbyist' needs to work with spot colours or have access to many of the features that they don't even know exist?

Clearly, at least 1 more person than you (or Adobe) think.

SL

EDIT: I've just looked at EazyDraw... I'll bear it in mind if/when I have pre-school kids that i want to introduce Graphic Design to. Thanks.

irishgrizzly
Mar 26, 2007, 07:40 AM
I think that these bundles are ok. With so many products it hard to strike the balance between having so many bundles that people complain (like people have been here) and having so few that people are forsed to buy products that they don't need. I think the breakdown offered by Adobe is alright.

*run behind sofa and pulls cushions over head*

dante@sisna.com
Mar 26, 2007, 07:42 AM
Oh please, all of you, stop with this. These apps are aimed at pros, not dabblers and hobbyists and are priced accordingly. GIMP is no match for Photoshop, CMYK is not the be-all of pro features.

We'll be buying because we have work to do. So if you're making money with this stuff, then the price is a drop in the ocean... even as a freelancer, I could pay for the Design Premium suite with the payment from just one job.


Sure, Agreed, BUT there are many things to pay for in the course of a year: $2,000 color proofer, New Mac Pro, More Drives, more Backup, etc, etc etc.

--- Add to this that we spent close to $1,200 upgrading to CS2 just over a year ago and these prices get steep, especially when you factor in how the upgrade pricing has acutally increase dramatically due to the bundling.

Blue Velvet
Mar 26, 2007, 07:42 AM
Hrumph. I feel like I've just been told that I'm not old enough to play football with the bigger boys, and that I should go back to my sandpit.


Well, you tell me. Give me an example of a print run of hobbyist work that you do that needs to be done in spot colours, or needing to check the trapping on anything, or work with DCS files? Let alone build indexes or many of the dozens of features that exist in these apps?

When do hobbyists need to work in 16bit LAB space? I'm not a photographer; I don't need Aperture or moan about the price it costs. I don't need Final Cut Pro on my Mac to make me feel important... This comment is not aimed at you but more generally to those who are whinging about software they don't need... anyway, bet you a large chunk of them will be searching for cracked copies within weeks, contributing nothing to Adobe's income at all.

Blue Velvet
Mar 26, 2007, 07:45 AM
Add to this that we spent close to $1,200 upgrading to CS2 just over a year ago and these prices get steep, especially when you factor in how the upgrade pricing has acutally increase dramatically due to the bundling.


Show me one job that you're going to lose to a competitor because you're running CS2 instead of CS3. We've been on CS1 since release, skipped CS2. Upgrades aren't compulsory.

superleccy
Mar 26, 2007, 08:00 AM
Well, you tell me. Give me an example of a print run of hobbyist work that you do that needs to be done in spot colours, or needing to check the trapping on anything, or work with DCS files? Let alone build indexes or many of the dozens of features that exist in these apps?

Well no... none of that lot, well... not normally.

But I do need to be able to draw & manipulate shapes, transform, clone, group, join, intersect and fragment them. Convert text to curves, extrude, blend, gradient fill, import & lay-out photographs, work with guides (at any angle) and grids. I want to use lenses, transparencies and I want to use different nibs for line drawing. I need to lay out text boxes that flow from one to another with some half-decent word-processing ability built-in. I also want to be able to handle multi-page double-sided booklets with millimeter accuracy. And if I want to submit the occasional job for a professional (well, I mainly work for friends and family so I rarely, if ever, get any money) print run, then I want to be able to produce a format that my local print shop won't laugh at. And if that's not enough, I want a program that doesn't automatically assume I want to make a greeting card or a poster and force me to use a restrictive template "wizard"

Those features might sound simple to a pro like you, but you'd be surprised (as was I) how hopeless the "other" drawing apps for the Mac are at meeting those requirements.

Whilst Illustrator certainly has a load of features I'll probably never or rarely use, it is still the only application that supports what I want.

SL

datilhell
Mar 26, 2007, 08:08 AM
The "up"s listed next to some products do NOT indicate UPGRADE pricing, they indicate UPSELL ITEMS. These are the items that Amazon will offer to you if you choose a less expensive package -- "Would you like to get the bigger package for only this much?"

Blue Velvet
Mar 26, 2007, 08:08 AM
Whilst Illustrator certainly has a load of features I'll probably never or rarely use, it is still the only application that supports what I want.


Then buy Illustrator by itself or see if you can find a second-hand copy elsewhere... if you have Illustrator already then I'm sure the upgrade prices on that app won't be too bad. Honestly, it sounds like you're in the wrong job. Come and work for us, we'll pay more than your family. :D

failsafe1
Mar 26, 2007, 08:09 AM
Yikes how confusing is it when you have to print out two tables and highlight the things you have and then see which thing you are eligible for. I would like to pick and choose the things I want. Based on what I have (PS CS, and Studio MX) my cheapest option is the web premium. Premium is a good name cause that is what you pay at $500. That is still pretty cheap for what I am getting but I feel like I am being punished or forced into a package I would like to tailor to my needs. Interesting that there did not seem to be a design premium upgrade. perhaps one will materialize when tomorrow rolls around.

TheBobcat
Mar 26, 2007, 08:16 AM
CS2 in Windows through boot camp it is then.

Well, that or LimeWire. :D

ChrisCarr
Mar 26, 2007, 08:17 AM
This isn't accurate... if up upgrade all of the pieces separately on the Premium Design, it would be $150 cheaper... so if you drop one program, you save money against the package. So... not a big Firworks user? Ditch Fireworks and save? I would think the bundle would be a bit larger of a discount over individual pieces... Tomorrow will tell.

redAPPLE
Mar 26, 2007, 08:21 AM
the powerpc proc again looks better than the intel proc :p

shecky
Mar 26, 2007, 08:25 AM
i think that for flagship pro software these prices are not really that bad at all; i have seen plenty of similar stature software (top of the line, flagship product) go for 10 times these prices (or more!) so considering Adobe owns the market and can charge whatever they want i do not feel these numbers are unreasonable for the pro user. like BV said, its quite simply the cost of doing business. software is the least expensive thing i will spend money on this year to run my business by far. fortunately for me i get legitimate academic pricing so that certainly helps as well.

cr2sh
Mar 26, 2007, 08:38 AM
Did those links just go cease and desist?

wtmcgee
Mar 26, 2007, 08:42 AM
I'm just glad they're giving Studio 8 users upgrade pricing.

justflie
Mar 26, 2007, 08:43 AM
Honestly, it sounds like you're in the wrong job. Come and work for us, we'll pay more than your family. :D

That's a great idea! Maybe Arn could put up some kind of job posting forum. There are plenty of creative professionals that browse (ehem, live on) website, why not pass the love around to fellow Mac enthusiasts in need of a job? :D

CoreWeb
Mar 26, 2007, 08:51 AM
Oh please, all of you, stop with this. These apps are aimed at pros, not dabblers and hobbyists and are priced accordingly. GIMP is no match for Photoshop, CMYK is not the be-all of pro features.

We'll be buying because we have work to do. So if you're making money with this stuff, then the price is a drop in the ocean... even as a freelancer, I could pay for the Design Premium suite with the payment from just one job.

You are drastically wrong - on one count. I am a web developer, and there is DEFINITELY something you can use besides Dreamweaver or GoLive - try eclipse (http://eclipse.org/). It is quite powerful.

Unfortunately, the others don't have good enough alternatives. I agree with you that GIMP is not good enough.

However, in your mention about pricing, you are again off. Here are a few products that would be on my want list:
Photoshop
Fireworks
InDesign
Illustrator
Acrobat Professional

I would be able to get one package. One. So Adobe Design Bundle, I suppose? I can't really afford two when I'm not going to be using a few of the programs in one of them. But that means that Fireworks is out... Truthfully, I've never used Fireworks, only its predecessor ImageReady, but it has a place in my development environment that is difficult to fill with plain Photoshop. But, apparently, I may have to cut it.

TMay
Mar 26, 2007, 08:53 AM
i think that for flagship pro software these prices are not really that bad at all; i have seen plenty of similar stature software (top of the line, flagship product) go for 10 times these prices (or more!) so considering Adobe owns the market and can charge whatever they want i do not feel these numbers are unreasonable for the pro user. like BV said, its quite simply the cost of doing business. software is the least expensive thing i will spend money on this year to run my business by far. fortunately for me i get legitimate academic pricing so that certainly helps as well.

The problem is that Adobe pretty much killed off all of the midrange competition for Illustrator and InDesign, especially on the mac, so their aren't any "lite" or "Element" editions of these for hobbyists, or modest users.

An opportunity Adobe and for other developers to be sure, though in the meantime, my modest needs still require pro applications, and I will put a bit smile on my face and drop the cash necessary, just as I do for my MCAD applications for yearly maintenance.

CoreWeb
Mar 26, 2007, 08:58 AM
The problem is that Adobe pretty much killed off all of the midrange competition for Illustrator and InDesign, especially on the mac, so their aren't any "lite" or "Element" editions of these for hobbyists, or modest users.

An opportunity Adobe and for other developers to be sure, though in the meantime, my modest needs still require pro applications, and I will put a bit smile on my face and drop the cash necessary, just as I do for my MCAD applications for yearly maintenance.

And even for non-hobbyists... I find that now, though I will be buying parts of Creative Suite, I believe, I will also be skipping on other parts that I once would have bought.

Really, I just want the equivalent of the old Creative Suite - InDesign, Illustrator, Photoshop, Acrobat, and a program like ImageReady. Flash and Dreamweaver I couldn't care less about.

Guigue
Mar 26, 2007, 09:01 AM
And even for non-hobbyists... I find that now, though I will be buying parts of Creative Suite, I believe, I will also be skipping on other parts that I once would have bought.

Really, I just want the equivalent of the old Creative Suite - InDesign, Illustrator, Photoshop, Acrobat, and a program like ImageReady. Flash and Dreamweaver I couldn't care less about.

You just described the exact content of Design Standard

CoreWeb
Mar 26, 2007, 09:04 AM
You just described the exact content of Design Standard

Except it forces me to cut Fireworks. That's what irritates me.

Guigue
Mar 26, 2007, 09:06 AM
Except it forces me to cut Fireworks. That's what irritates me.

But Fireworks was a Macromedia app, so they're not removing it from the old Creative Suite. Plus, it's only 299 if you really need it.

superleccy
Mar 26, 2007, 09:08 AM
Then buy Illustrator by itself or see if you can find a second-hand copy elsewhere... if you have Illustrator already then I'm sure the upgrade prices on that app won't be too bad. Honestly, it sounds like you're in the wrong job. Come and work for us, we'll pay more than your family. :D

Indeed... this is the conclusion I have painfully arrived at. :rolleyes:

Yes I'm going to have to bite the bullet and buy Illustrator.

Due to not having a previous version of any Adobe software, and due to this being intended for my forthcoming MBP, it's new CS3 or nothing (I'm not going to find a second hand copy of CS3).

Depending on the UK prices, if the cheapest bundle of Creative Suite is only a few hundred quid extra... then maybe I'll buy that, teach myself the other Adobe apps and then perhaps change my career so I can pay for my purchase!

SL

PS: I don't actually have any artistic talent - it's a shame Adobe don't sell that! :D

Blue Velvet
Mar 26, 2007, 09:10 AM
I am a web developer...

Could you then please explain why you need InDesign?

superleccy
Mar 26, 2007, 09:12 AM
The problem is that Adobe pretty much killed off all of the midrange competition for Illustrator and InDesign, especially on the mac, so their aren't any "lite" or "Element" editions of these for hobbyists, or modest users.

I think that's the problem here. I don't think you can blame Adobe for this... but it's certainly not doing them any harm.

SL

Mundy
Mar 26, 2007, 09:13 AM
Hmmmm, I have a windows version of photoshop 5.0, still shrinkwrapped... I don't know how the upgrades work, whether its a full install, just use the old serial, or what... Basically, I'd love to try going the 'upgrade to CS2' route and getting a better deal on CS3... But I have my doubts I can make the move to the Mac version...

Anyone have any idea about this?

Adobe does allow cross-grades, and I've taken advantage of it a few times. The fee was insignificant.

The one potential hurdle is that your copy of Photoshop is so old. But you won't know until you call up Adobe and ask.

Mustafa
Mar 26, 2007, 09:13 AM
Any guess to what the Bangkok/Hong Kong/Moscow street trader prices will be?

dburney
Mar 26, 2007, 09:14 AM
no mention of an upgrade to design premium. Any one know if this is an oversight or deliberate?

I'm curious about this as well. I'll need one Design Premium upgrade and two Design Standard - I'm trying to budget and Adobe's making it awful difficult.

CoreWeb
Mar 26, 2007, 09:16 AM
Could you then please explain why you need InDesign?
I also do print development. Haven't recently, but in the past (several times) I've created InDesign documents. And I hold that in higher importance than Fireworks.

But Fireworks was a Macromedia app, so they're not removing it from the old Creative Suite. Plus, it's only 299 if you really need it.

But they cut ImageReady. Fireworks appears to be its replacement.

Joseph Duchesne
Mar 26, 2007, 09:16 AM
Hmm, what's this about CMYK being a pro requirement :P

As an employee at a photography studio (which, I presume is one of the more common users of Photoshop), I have never used CMYK. These days the workflow works like so:
90% of the time:
You shoot a grey card, shoot the clients, grey balance and tweak the raw files as they gets imported to photoshop, bump the color/saturation/contrast with levels and curves, convert to 8 bit/channel from 16, crop, retouch, any auxiliary filters, print.

10% of the time:
Get some random photo to be restored/poster to be made/logo to be vectorized/other random job
Use healing brush, marquee tools, layers, text, maybe 10 other features, maybe a gaussian blur or add noise to parts of the image, maybe roughly combine 3 images with the panorama feature then tweak the merger and color balance up to a professional level (takes 30 minutes for large group shots), etc.

And how many of these features have changed since CS1:
None significantly.
I use 2-3 filters, and maybe 20% of the feature set.

So why am I interested in CS3? I have an intel computer as my main machine.
And why would I ever get the "Xtreme" version of photoshop? The features sound neat. (and completely useless to me for work).

Ah well....
</rant>
<life>

iMeowbot
Mar 26, 2007, 09:18 AM
I'm curious about this as well. I'll need one Design Premium upgrade and two Design Standard - I'm trying to budget and Adobe's making it awful difficult.
In fairness to Adobe, they haven't actually announced prices yet. These are leaks, who even knows for sure that they are final? We'll know better after they have their little show.

Blue Velvet
Mar 26, 2007, 09:25 AM
Hmm, what's this about CMYK being a pro requirement :P

For you, it may be 16-bit and I take it you don't get files ready for press then... of course most of Photoshop's tools are available in RGB but I'm not in the habit of sending RGB files to print. ;)

marekkurlmann
Mar 26, 2007, 09:35 AM
Based on how Adobe releases typically work, does anyone know or can anyone guess if CS3 will be released at academic prices on the same dates as it hits stores, or will there be a delay. If there will be a delay, any guesses on how long?

Also, do you think the online academic stores (e.g. campustech.com) will be selling CS3 from the get-go, or will we have to hit up campus bookstores?

Rhema
Mar 26, 2007, 09:38 AM
So....

Apple should just buy adobe.

and Nintendo

and then let me redesign the iPhone.

...yeah

zoozx
Mar 26, 2007, 09:43 AM
Just as expected, Adobe following Microsoft down the toilet. I really hope someday they have competition that makes them see how Fed up they have become. Any alternative would be welcome!

Shadow
Mar 26, 2007, 09:51 AM
This may have been asked already, but will I be able to upgrade my Photoshop CS1 to Photoshop CS3, or will I need to buy CS3 as a full version as opposed to an upgrade version?

Blue Velvet
Mar 26, 2007, 09:55 AM
This may have been asked already, but will I be able to upgrade my Photoshop CS1 to Photoshop CS3, or will I need to buy CS3 as a full version as opposed to an upgrade version?


There will be upgrade paths from probably every version of Photoshop since v4 or 5... and that includes CS1. You shouldn't have to pay full price but it may end up being pricy-ish, maybe £120-180 or so; my guess anyway.

wildmac
Mar 26, 2007, 10:03 AM
I suppose it's okay if you're doing mom-n-pop sites, but I've dealt with the mess that comes with corporate sites being built on Dreamweaver and I just have a terrible bias against that app. It just makes a mess of things. It doesn't scale well to large sites (from what I've seen) and only really deals with non-dynamic content well. The happiest day of my web coding life was the day I had completely taken our web dept. off DW and switched over to BBEdit.

It may have improved over the last few years, but I have no interest in it. I think a web developer ought to get their hands dirty in code and ought to learn how to manage the kinds of things DW tries to make easy.

Umm... except BBedit sucks now too. BBedit was fine for the days of designing with tables, but it reeks for doing CSS sites. Dreamweaver is great if you need to create templated sites that allows the users to work in Contribute to update their content. Or do you enjoy doing the work a secretary should be doing?...

There are many other tools for creating great sites. And if you are doing large-scale corporate sites, why aren't you using a CMS?...

wildmac
Mar 26, 2007, 10:05 AM
Why is there no upgrade to CS3 Design Premium?....

What has Adobe done with Dreamweaver?... they've said nothing about it before this...

Ditto for Flash. Have they changed anything besides the logo?...

wildmac
Mar 26, 2007, 10:07 AM
Hmm, what's this about CMYK being a pro requirement :P

As an employee at a photography studio (which, I presume is one of the more common users of Photoshop), I have never used CMYK. ........
</rant>
<life>

Your CLIENTS do... or do they use that magic RGB ink?...

wildmac
Mar 26, 2007, 10:08 AM
Any guess to what the Bangkok/Hong Kong/Moscow street trader prices will be?

3-5 years for you.

technicolor
Mar 26, 2007, 10:08 AM
Could they when CS2 was(is) out? I don't recall it.

CS2 costs 199.00 at my school bookstore

wildmac
Mar 26, 2007, 10:10 AM
Except it forces me to cut Fireworks. That's what irritates me.

Who needs Fireworks anymore?... unless you make animated gifs, it's useless. And please don't tell me you are still making table-sliced images for webpage layouts....

wildmac
Mar 26, 2007, 10:11 AM
no mention of an upgrade to design premium. Any one know if this is an oversight or deliberate?

this has me worried.... it's cheaper to get the upgrades to design standard and web premium than to get the design premium....

NuDarwin
Mar 26, 2007, 10:15 AM
hi all.

i'm a legitimate academic user, and I was wondering if anybody has anything on education pricing for design standard. since the retail price for cs2 premium was 1199, and edu for cs2 premium was ~$400, I'm guessing that cs3 design standard academic will be ~$400? Thoughts on this are [U]most[U] welcome.

technicolor
Mar 26, 2007, 10:19 AM
I agree with Analog Kid, hobbyists are going to suffer. Those who make casual purchases are certainly going to think twice about buying these apps.

I understand a lot of dev has probably gone into these builds, but with so many alternatives, many of which are OpenSource and free (GIMP when it has CYMK, many many WYSIWYG HTML editors), Adobe might burn itself.
This software isnt meant for hobbyist.

Actually the software in hobbyist hands is probably one of the worst things to happen to the software(increased pirating by lay people) and cranked out crappy "design".

zioxide
Mar 26, 2007, 10:22 AM
No wonder people pirate these things.

CoreWeb
Mar 26, 2007, 10:23 AM
Who needs Fireworks anymore?... unless you make animated gifs, it's useless. And please don't tell me you are still making table-sliced images for webpage layouts....

Thankfully I don't use ImageReady's more advanced features... or at least aren't dependent on them. But I still do need some sliced images - though not for tables.

See, I will often create my site design in something like Illustrator, and then cut the various pictures from the master AI file using ImageReady. (Illustrator's slicing controls really really bother me - in CS1, at least, which is all I've got.) Sometimes what I do is as simple as cutting the logo out of the design, other times I need to use custom something-or-another and need to cut it out. Sometimes it is a bit more complicated - sometimes I have an element which needs to grow smoothly but has oddly-designed edges or corners. Rounded corners, anyone? What about rounded shadows?

So I do use it, but as I don't require it too dearly, I will decide to go without that instead of sacrificing InDesign...

Guigue
Mar 26, 2007, 10:24 AM
Honest question.

I see a lot of people want to buy the academic version, even if they have to take one single class to be eligible.

Per the EULA, can you actually use the software to get a revenue from a contract?

mrrory
Mar 26, 2007, 10:28 AM
Does this mean GoLive is no more? I never liked Dreamweaver :(

CoreWeb
Mar 26, 2007, 10:31 AM
This software isnt meant for hobbyist.

Actually the software in hobbyist hands is probably one of the worst things to happen to the software(increased pirating by lay people) and cranked out crappy "design".

What is your definition of "hobbyist?" Because most likely I agree with you, but some people do stuff like, say, create their own websites, or others, or do some photo touch-up even. They may be quite good designers, but they don't do it for a living. Are these people "hobbyists," because if they are, then there is a group of people who should be able to get the software but can't.

I'm not a hobbyist - at least not in my own definition. I spend tons of time each day working on websites. I've only had a couple of paying web design jobs, however (I'm still in school/College). Does that make me a hobbyist? I write very advanced code, spend many hours programming in PHP + HTML + CSS plus a language of my own invention which compiles to PHP. Is that the actions of a hobbyist?

I'm waiting for the academic pricing, actually. Hopefully that'll be a bit cheaper. (I wish it were like Autodesk's Maya - ~$390 for Unlimited, which costs $7000 otherwise...)

wildmac
Mar 26, 2007, 10:34 AM
Does this mean GoLive is no more? I never liked Dreamweaver :(

GoLive is supposed to still be around, as a consumer-oriented package, and thus not part of CS3.

wildmac
Mar 26, 2007, 10:36 AM
What is your definition of "hobbyist?" Because most likely I agree with you, but some people do stuff like, say, create their own websites, or others, or do some photo touch-up even. They may be quite good designers, but they don't do it for a living. Are these people "hobbyists," because if they are, then there is a group of people who should be able to get the software but can't.

I'm not a hobbyist - at least not in my own definition. I spend tons of time each day working on websites. I've only had a couple of paying web design jobs, however (I'm still in school/College). Does that make me a hobbyist? I write very advanced code, spend many hours programming in PHP + HTML + CSS plus a language of my own invention which compiles to PHP. Is that the actions of a hobbyist?

I'm waiting for the academic pricing, actually. Hopefully that'll be a bit cheaper. (I wish it were like Autodesk's Maya - ~$390 for Unlimited, which costs $7000 otherwise...)

you are not a hobbyist.

wildmac
Mar 26, 2007, 10:36 AM
No wonder people pirate these things.

3-5 years for you as well.

CoreWeb
Mar 26, 2007, 10:37 AM
you are not a hobbyist.

I'm relieved at your assessment. :D

wildmac
Mar 26, 2007, 10:37 AM
Honest question.

I see a lot of people want to buy the academic version, even if they have to take one single class to be eligible.

Per the EULA, can you actually use the software to get a revenue from a contract?

No, but no one checks on you. If you feel OK doing that, go for it.

wildmac
Mar 26, 2007, 10:39 AM
again, the real question is... what have they done with Dreamweaver and Flash?... besides change the logos?.. are they intel native?....

Guigue
Mar 26, 2007, 10:41 AM
No, but no one checks on you. If you feel OK doing that, go for it.

No one checks on you but it's still illegal. You might as well download it off the internet

CoreWeb
Mar 26, 2007, 10:42 AM
again, the real question is... what have they done with Dreamweaver and Flash?... besides change the logos?.. are they intel native?....

I believe everything is in fact Intel-native.

you are not a hobbyist.

No, I suppose I'd be more of an obsessor...

wildmac
Mar 26, 2007, 10:47 AM
Thankfully I don't use ImageReady's more advanced features... or at least aren't dependent on them. But I still do need some sliced images - though not for tables.

See, I will often create my site design in something like Illustrator, and then cut the various pictures from the master AI file using ImageReady. (Illustrator's slicing controls really really bother me - in CS1, at least, which is all I've got.) Sometimes what I do is as simple as cutting the logo out of the design, other times I need to use custom something-or-another and need to cut it out. Sometimes it is a bit more complicated - sometimes I have an element which needs to grow smoothly but has oddly-designed edges or corners. Rounded corners, anyone? What about rounded shadows?

So I do use it, but as I don't require it too dearly, I will decide to go without that instead of sacrificing InDesign...

With the vector objects in Photoshop now, I've gotten into to habit of just dragging all the elements from illustrator into PS, and making my web graphics from there... don't see the need for imageready or fireworks anymore... (I never switch to imageready within PS unless I need to make an animated gif.)

shecky
Mar 26, 2007, 10:47 AM
Per the EULA, can you actually use the software to get a revenue from a contract?

No, but no one checks on you. If you feel OK doing that, go for it.

wrong. you can legally use it to make money:

from the edu puchasing FAQ (http://www.adobe.com/education/purchasing/faq.html):

Professional/commercial use
Student question
"I'm very interested in buying the Education version of Adobe Creative Suite, but first I want to know if the software can be used to produce work for paying customers once I am working in the industry, or do I have to buy a different version of Creative Suite once I'm working in the industry?”

Answer
Good news! You can use Adobe Education software (any title!) to produce commercial/professional paid-for work when you leave school, or even while you are in school. In this regard, Adobe does not limit how student software is used. So students can use it to learn and to make money!

(Of course, students must agree to the terms of the End User Licensing Agreement — which appears during installation — just as every software customer must do.)

k2k koos
Mar 26, 2007, 10:48 AM
Adobe needs to simplify their product line , and do something about the pricing.
Similar to what Apple did with Logic, only two versions now, and all the goodies thrown in, although I still see room for a midrange version with upgrade option to the real deal, to ease the financial pain. This is the way I did it in the Emagic days, I'd never be able to afford the full product in one go, I upgraded to it over 4 years. (We need a path from Express, to Expert, to Pro or something....)


Can't wait what Apple will offer in the Final Cut and Aperture department to counter some of the offerings Adobe has here, hopefully at better prices that mere mortals can afford.

Yes I understand that lots of these products are geared towards Pro's, but there is no inbetween so it seems, the products usually offered, are too simple, and if you want more, you end up spending $700,- plus.

Where are the midrange packages for $499,- ish?
In most product lines, 3 stages works best I believe.

wildmac
Mar 26, 2007, 10:49 AM
No one checks on you but it's still illegal. You might as well download it off the internet

True, but Adobe's spin has always been that it is better to get people to buy at least the edu version, because otherwise they' likely bootleg it somehow.

and all those edu user buy upgrades later on.

CoreWeb
Mar 26, 2007, 10:50 AM
wrong. you can legally use it to make money:

from the edu puchasing FAQ (http://www.adobe.com/education/purchasing/faq.html):

Professional/commercial use
Student question
"I'm very interested in buying the Education version of Adobe Creative Suite, but first I want to know if the software can be used to produce work for paying customers once I am working in the industry, or do I have to buy a different version of Creative Suite once I'm working in the industry?”

Answer
Good news! You can use Adobe Education software (any title!) to produce commercial/professional paid-for work when you leave school, or even while you are in school. In this regard, Adobe does not limit how student software is used. So students can use it to learn and to make money!

(Of course, students must agree to the terms of the End User Licensing Agreement — which appears during installation — just as every software customer must do.)

Wow! Less restrictive than Autodesk's Maya! That's certainly good news...

With the vector objects in Photoshop now, I've gotten into to habit of just dragging all the elements from illustrator into PS, and making my web graphics from there... don't see the need for imageready or fireworks anymore... (I never switch to imageready within PS unless I need to make an animated gif.)

I hope it will be that easy. But I do every once in a great great while (I've had to do it once) have to create an animated gif. It was for a progress-loading indicator that I didn't want to reside in javascript (though that may have been easier).

wildmac
Mar 26, 2007, 10:50 AM
any why isn't Lightroom included anywhere?...

Guigue
Mar 26, 2007, 10:52 AM
wrong. you can legally use it to make money:

Thanks!

wildmac
Mar 26, 2007, 10:54 AM
wrong. you can legally use it to make money:

from the edu puchasing FAQ (http://www.adobe.com/education/purchasing/faq.html):

Professional/commercial use
Student question
"I'm very interested in buying the Education version of Adobe Creative Suite, but first I want to know if the software can be used to produce work for paying customers once I am working in the industry, or do I have to buy a different version of Creative Suite once I'm working in the industry?”

Answer
Good news! You can use Adobe Education software (any title!) to produce commercial/professional paid-for work when you leave school, or even while you are in school. In this regard, Adobe does not limit how student software is used. So students can use it to learn and to make money!

(Of course, students must agree to the terms of the End User Licensing Agreement — which appears during installation — just as every software customer must do.)

It's the faking being a student part that's illegal, or at least somewhat immoral. But, as I said, Adobe wants you to purchase now, and then buy upgrades later...

wildmac
Mar 26, 2007, 10:55 AM
I believe everything is in fact Intel-native.

I hope so, but what else did they change?.. (and will Flash finally support SVG, and did they redo actionscript, again....)

shecky
Mar 26, 2007, 10:56 AM
It's the faking being a student part that's illegal, or at least somewhat immoral. But, as I said, Adobe wants you to purchase now, and then buy upgrades later...

that may be true but thats not the question that was asked. and what i have found is that while it it extremely easy to pull an "illegal" edu discount with apple, it is a lot harder to pull it with adobe since the places that sell it REQUIRE proof of eligibility before you buy.

NuDarwin
Mar 26, 2007, 10:58 AM
any why isn't Lightroom included anywhere?...

good question. I would think that since it integrates with ps, that adobe would stick it on, at least with the premium bundles. that would certainly give it a competitive edge over aperture.

maybe its not included since lightroom is cheap (~$200 introductory, ~100 educational).

freeny
Mar 26, 2007, 10:59 AM
Anyone know how many licenses you get for those prices?
How many computers can you install?
Do they have a package deal for a small office? 5 stations?

wildmac
Mar 26, 2007, 11:01 AM
that may be true but thats not the question that was asked. and what i have found is that while it it extremely easy to pull an "illegal" edu discount with apple, it is a lot harder to pull it with adobe since the places that sell it REQUIRE proof of eligibility before you buy.

True. You don't even need to show ID to buy student software at an Apple store. (But you do for hardware).

But my wife is a full-time student, so... I'll still probably buy the normal version. Just because I can buy the edu version doesn't make it moral.

shecky
Mar 26, 2007, 11:02 AM
i think its 2 seats, but don't quote me on that (i know the most recent version of After Effects came with 2 seats)

wildmac
Mar 26, 2007, 11:02 AM
Anyone know how many licenses you get for those prices?

If it's like the last one, you can install on a laptop and a desktop, and not use them both at the same time.

Artful Dodger
Mar 26, 2007, 11:02 AM
I will have to see what is improved with Flash before I will buy. As like many others academic pricing is my best friend :D Those are some really heavy prices but hey if it makes you your income injoy :apple:

shecky
Mar 26, 2007, 11:03 AM
True. You don't even need to show ID to buy student software at an Apple store. (But you do for hardware).

in person, yes. online, no.

freeny
Mar 26, 2007, 11:04 AM
i think its 2 seats, but don't quote me on that (i know the most recent version of After Effects came with 2 seats)

So when I contact Adobe I should say Shecky said 2 seats? ;)

shecky
Mar 26, 2007, 11:05 AM
actually wildmac might be correct on that; we had one serial number on 2 machines, but i cannot recall if we ever had both on the same time while connected to the network. probably not.

GFLPraxis
Mar 26, 2007, 11:06 AM
Hmmmm, I have a windows version of photoshop 5.0, still shrinkwrapped... I don't know how the upgrades work, whether its a full install, just use the old serial, or what... Basically, I'd love to try going the 'upgrade to CS2' route and getting a better deal on CS3... But I have my doubts I can make the move to the Mac version...

Anyone have any idea about this?

I *think* you could buy a Photoshop 7.0 upgrade (remember, CS3 upgrades require 7, CS1, or CS2) for Mac, install it with your old Photoshop 5 serial, and then buy the Photoshop CS3 upgrade.

MM2270
Mar 26, 2007, 11:07 AM
Man, some of those prices seem rather high, at least if you are buying these new outright, and not doing an upgrade bundle. I'm glad I'll be doing an upgrade from the CS2 suite, so it won't be so hard to swing.

At the moment, either the Design Standard bundle or the Design Premium bundles look good to me. Actually Design Prem. looks best, but the .png chart has no upgrade pricing for it at all. I would be upgrading from CS2 suite to it, so I'd like to know what that would cost. I can't imagine they don't have an upgrade bundle for it. If it's around $499 like the Web premium upgrade price, I might bite. $500 for Photoshop Extended, Illustrator, InDesign, Acrobat Professional, Dreamweaver and Flash, along with Bridge, sounds pretty nice to me.

Still, it DOES seem like the overall prices have jumped a bit with this suite rev. I hope they're really worth it.

I guess we'll know more tomorrow.

Inkling
Mar 26, 2007, 11:07 AM
As some who writes and edits books in InDesign, many thanks to Adobe for the long document features. I've got a book in progress that was designed assuming they'd add running headers and footers. Thanks for not disappointing me!

I'm not quite sure what "synchronized master pages" are. A Google search turned up absolutely no hits. But if it's what I think it is, then thanks yet again. It'll mean that I can tell InDesign to automatically apply a chapter master page to every page with a chapter heading style. That'll save a lot of hassle.

Unfortunately, there wasn't any mention of the two other major hassles of doing books in InDesign. First, while magazines and newspapers usually have their length fixed in advance, books have to grow or shrink as they're edited and proofed. I saw nothing about the new InDesign being smart enough make the page count fit the text length (as in FrameMaker). Second, InDesign users need a way to break multi-column text for a single column heading and then return to multi-column text in the same text frame. Currently, we face the misery of ending a multi-column text frame, adding a single-column frame for the heading, and then creating yet another multicolumn frame--all of which have to be adjusted when the text length changes. Number of columns should be an attribute of a paragraph and not of the frame, again like FrameMaker, the preeminent long document application.

Finally, I've seen the new user interface demoed with the Photoshop beta and love it. Thanks for getting rid of palette clutter, my #1 gripe with CS2.

--Michael W. Perry, Untangling Tolkien

GFLPraxis
Mar 26, 2007, 11:09 AM
Oh please, all of you, stop with this. These apps are aimed at pros, not dabblers and hobbyists and are priced accordingly. GIMP is no match for Photoshop, CMYK is not the be-all of pro features.

We'll be buying because we have work to do. So if you're making money with this stuff, then the price is a drop in the ocean... even as a freelancer, I could pay for the Design Premium suite with the payment from just one job.

And I want to buy the software as a hobbyist. I'm 19. I'm working an IT job. I have a creative side. I like to teach myself new things, I'd like to learn some video editing and be able to use Photoshop at native speeds (I want to buy Photoshop CS3 only for the Universal Binary, Photoshop 7 works fine for me, just really really slow, ugh).

The prices are just so ridiculous I can't afford to pick up the software.

The hobbyists are the ones that get burned. We're NOT making money off of it, we're being creative for our own enjoyment.

The pros have no problem with this pricing. It's the hobbyists that do.

CoreWeb
Mar 26, 2007, 11:10 AM
So when I contact Adobe I should say Shecky said 2 seats? ;)

You could try the old-fashioned flatter approach: "A rumor site said you'd give 2 seats, but I know better. You'd never give so little. You are, after all, a wonderful company, so you will probably surpass my wildest expectations... right?" "Err.... right... um no we'd never give so little. Fiv... " trails of as he hears your breath ... "ten seats?" he asks, somewhat fearfully.

"You're so wonderful!" you respond.

Of course, as they deal with rules, and they follow orders or people are fired, that is not likely to happen.

technicolor
Mar 26, 2007, 11:10 AM
What is your definition of "hobbyist?" Because most likely I agree with you, but some people do stuff like, say, create their own websites, or others, or do some photo touch-up even. They may be quite good designers, but they don't do it for a living. Are these people "hobbyists," because if they are, then there is a group of people who should be able to get the software but can't.

I'm not a hobbyist - at least not in my own definition. I spend tons of time each day working on websites. I've only had a couple of paying web design jobs, however (I'm still in school/College). Does that make me a hobbyist? I write very advanced code, spend many hours programming in PHP + HTML + CSS plus a language of my own invention which compiles to PHP. Is that the actions of a hobbyist?

I'm waiting for the academic pricing, actually. Hopefully that'll be a bit cheaper. (I wish it were like Autodesk's Maya - ~$390 for Unlimited, which costs $7000 otherwise...)
I would not consider some on who is in school for their profession a hobbyist. You have more than a legit reason to have the software. I consider someone who is completely untrained in the fundamentals of design a hobbyist( i.e hacks and 13 yr old kids calling themselves designers...we refer to them as photoshop cowboys)

Darkroom
Mar 26, 2007, 11:10 AM
With the vector objects in Photoshop now, I've gotten into to habit of just dragging all the elements from illustrator into PS, and making my web graphics from there... don't see the need for imageready or fireworks anymore... (I never switch to imageready within PS unless I need to make an animated gif.)

a new feature that was introduced in Photoshop CS2 is the ability to make animated gifs in Photoshop without having to switch over to ImageReady... :)

GFLPraxis
Mar 26, 2007, 11:12 AM
And what will happen if I buy any of this software (specifically, Photoshop CS3) and install it on my desktop and TWO laptops? (I've got an MB and MBP at home)

Will it be fine as long as I don't run them at the same time?

CoreWeb
Mar 26, 2007, 11:15 AM
a new feature that was introduced in Photoshop CS2 is the ability to make animated gifs in Photoshop without having to switch over to ImageReady... :)

Brilliant!

NuDarwin
Mar 26, 2007, 11:16 AM
If it's like the last one, you can install on a laptop and a desktop, and not use them both at the same time.

whether its a laptop or a desktop makes no legal difference. the ability to install the product on 2 different machines was intended so that people could put it a business computer and a home/laptop computer, but it could be two home computers, etc. The only requirements are that you own both computers, don't use the program at the same time on both, and that they must run the same OS. (ex.: you can't have a mac at the office, and an hp at home and run one copy of cs2 on both of them.)

wildmac
Mar 26, 2007, 11:18 AM
New MacPros announced tomorrow to go along with CS3...

Blue Velvet
Mar 26, 2007, 11:19 AM
...InDesign users need a way to break multi-column text for a single column heading and then return to multi-column text in the same text frame. Currently, we face the misery of ending a multi-column text frame, adding a single-column frame for the heading, and then creating yet another multicolumn frame--all of which have to be adjusted when the text length changes.


Publications are a large part of my job and yes, there are many times I've wished for the same feature in QuarkXpress, however, embedding text boxes as objects with heads and subs within other text boxes is possible in Quark, and their alignment and leading easy to control particularly if using a baseline grid. This ensures that they move in unison with the body text even as it is edited.

This capability is surely available in InDesign?

NuDarwin
Mar 26, 2007, 11:19 AM
And what will happen if I buy any of this software (specifically, Photoshop CS3) and install it on my desktop and TWO laptops? (I've got an MB and MBP at home)

Will it be fine as long as I don't run them at the same time?

If the activation scheme is the same as it was on CS2, then it won't activate on your third machine, and you'll only be able to use it on the desktop and one of the laptops.

MM2270
Mar 26, 2007, 11:25 AM
And what will happen if I buy any of this software (specifically, Photoshop CS3) and install it on my desktop and TWO laptops? (I've got an MB and MBP at home)

Will it be fine as long as I don't run them at the same time?

If the licensing in CS3 works like it did with CS2, then you can only activate it on 2 machines at the same time. That does not mean you can't install it on as many computers as you want, just that it can only be activated for use (via the Internet) on 2 workstations simultaneously. Since activation and de-activation is a relatively simple process, you could conceivably install it on all 3 machines, activate it on the 2 most commonly used ones, then, deactivate it on one when you know you need to use the 3rd.

But if you wanted to use it on all 3 at the same time, even if not on the same network, you're out of luck, unless Adobe has changed their policy on this. One can hope I guess.

alec
Mar 26, 2007, 11:27 AM
I need another matrix to figure out how this will be affordable.

hvfsl
Mar 26, 2007, 11:29 AM
Wow those prices are stupiedly to high for starving designers. I mean thats alot of money.

Good thing I went back to school I hope I can qualify for academic discount.
If you are a student in full time education or work in an educational institution, you should qualify for academic pricing. You do generally have to provide proof though.

freeny
Mar 26, 2007, 11:32 AM
Just a note, It seems Adobe Premiere Pro, Encore, and Soundbooth are the only apps that are intel based Macs only. No PPC versions of these apps.

puckhead193
Mar 26, 2007, 11:39 AM
as like many said, i can't wait to see the academic pricing ;)

-hh
Mar 26, 2007, 11:40 AM
Yikes how confusing is it when you have to print out two tables and highlight the things you have and then see which thing you are eligible for.

I went to Adobe's website, to their Creative Suite page (http://www.adobe.com/products/creativesuite/)

Plugged in the stuff that I already own (all four pieces in 'Design Standard'), and Adobe's above "helper" tool told me that my "UPGRADE" was to fork over $1199, and while they called it "Creative Suite 2.3 Premium", this is exactly the price for a full licence (not upgrade) for Design Standard.

Something's fishy in Denmark, since any one of those products would have made me eligible for the upgrade to Design Standard for "only" $899.

Overall, I'm of the opinion that because I already own full licences of each of the four pieces in the Design Standard bundle, I should only have to pay the $399 for the Bundle upgrade.


...I feel like I am being punished or forced into a package I would like to tailor to my needs. Interesting that there did not seem to be a design premium upgrade.

I hear you. I'm loathe to pay the $500 premium for the upgrade to one of Adobe's bundles for two reasons:

a) I can currently upgrade all 4 of my components for less ($756 vs $899 is roughly $140 cheaper).

b) I got burned by Adobe the first time that I paid extra for a bundle: Adobe promptly discontinued my bundle's name, which was then "orphaned" for bundled upgrades. If they've done it once, they'll do it again.


My plan at present is to do "skip updates". I'll buy 1 CS3 upgrades, then wait until CS4 comes out to do a couple more of my Apps. Its not that the new versions are so compelling all the way across the product line that I can't wait a year or two.

And what I find applicable for at home, I apply to my group at work. As such, Adobe's not missing out on one (1) hobbiest, but 1 hobbiest + the office workgroup that I define & approve software the specifications for. Our current plan is merely to update to Acrobat 8, since we have a business requirement that we have to be compatible to...with a few exceptions, the rest of the stuff isn't yet compelling, so we will wait until our FY08 or FY09 budget and then reevaluate.


-hh

deconai
Mar 26, 2007, 11:44 AM
You suck.

No PPC support for video? Fine. But now, I have to shell out $999 more for After Effects CS3, all because I don't want to upgrade a G5 that still works perfectly fine? Bunk.

notjustjay
Mar 26, 2007, 11:45 AM
I consider someone who is completely untrained in the fundamentals of design a hobbyist( i.e hacks and 13 yr old kids calling themselves designers...we refer to them as photoshop cowboys)

Yeah, but these folks are firing up BitTorrent as we speak, anyway. I suspect the sales impact of this segment of the population is minimal, at best (with the exception of those that do buy it at academic prices).

uv23
Mar 26, 2007, 11:46 AM
With that pricing, Adobe will do an even better job than they have in the past of ensuring boundless copies of every CS3 app on warez sites and bit torrent.

ChrisA
Mar 26, 2007, 11:49 AM
Wow those prices are stupiedly to high for starving designers. I mean thats alot of money.

Good thing I went back to school I hope I can qualify for academic discount.

But if you DO get the academic discount then you can't use the software for paying jobs, only for personal use.

Question: Does design work pay so poorly that it can't cover a $1,000 piece of software? What's the after tax price of $1,000? Can you put software on a three year schedule? If so it comes right off yor taxable income. So for most people that's a 30% or more discount

If you are a student typically they give you about 50% off but then you have no way to make money with the product or deduct the price off taxes.

If you are willing to break the law or license terms then the cost can approach zero but we're talking legal use here.

wildmac
Mar 26, 2007, 11:55 AM
...with a few exceptions, the rest of the stuff isn't yet compelling, so we will wait until our FY08 or FY09 budget and then reevaluate.


-hh

umm... if you can wait until 09, you don't need it anyway. Next.

Kid Red
Mar 26, 2007, 12:03 PM
WAY too expensive. I've played with the PS beta and was not impressed so thankfully I wanted to skip this upgrade anyways. Way too rich for my blood, the current versions will have to hold me up longer.

-Alan-
Mar 26, 2007, 12:03 PM
If I'm reading correctly, I can upgrade into the "Web Premium" edition with a Macromedia Studio 8 license for $500. That would gain me both Illustrator and Photoshop. This strikes me as pretty cheap.

SMM
Mar 26, 2007, 12:08 PM
Adobe appears to have graduated from the Microsoft Vista School Of Confusing Upgrades.

Yes, then you can make a mistake and buy it again.

NuDarwin
Mar 26, 2007, 12:12 PM
But if you DO get the academic discount then you can't use the software for paying jobs, only for personal use.

Question: Does design work pay so poorly that it can't cover a $1,000 piece of software? What's the after tax price of $1,000? Can you put software on a three year schedule? If so it comes right off yor taxable income. So for most people that's a 30% or more discount

If you are a student typically they give you about 50% off but then you have no way to make money with the product or deduct the price off taxes.

If you are willing to break the law or license terms then the cost can approach zero but we're talking legal use here.

uhh, no (to the first part anyway). software licensed legally as academic software (by adobe anyways) can be used for personal profit. Its not guaranteed across the industry (autodesk's maya academic, for instance, cannot be used for personal profit) but with many companies, including adobe, it can.

sonnys
Mar 26, 2007, 12:13 PM
At these prices, I'm not at all surprised that people pirate software. This is ridiculous. The only reason Adobe can charge this much is because they have no competition -- they bought their competition.

Viridiana
Mar 26, 2007, 12:23 PM
uhh, no (to the first part anyway). software licensed legally as academic software (by adobe anyways) can be used for personal profit. Its not guaranteed across the industry (autodesk's maya academic, for instance, cannot be used for personal profit) but with many companies, including adobe, it can.

This is good to know, especially 'round tax time--do you have a link somewhere on Adobe where they state this?

Seems like academic SW should be tax deductible anyway, because it's part of improving your job skills to be learning the SW by using it.

failsafe1
Mar 26, 2007, 12:37 PM
uhh, no (to the first part anyway). software licensed legally as academic software (by adobe anyways) can be used for personal profit. Its not guaranteed across the industry (autodesk's maya academic, for instance, cannot be used for personal profit) but with many companies, including adobe, it can.

Strange, I posted earlier that the EULA says you cannot produce commercial work with edu software. Now I have found both yea and nay answers on the Adobe site saying you can and can't. Now I only found one reference to Macromedia products and that answer was no. Very strange.

The following paragraphs were copied from the Adobe Education Store FAQs

From Adobe: Note: Education versions of Adobe and Macromedia branded products are intended for instructional and administrative purposes only and may not be used for any commercial purpose. Adobe conducts periodic audits to verify qualification for academic pricing.

What are the restrictions in using education versions of Adobe products?
A customer may only purchase one copy of any product. Education versions of Former Macromedia products only (Studio 8, Dreamweaver, Flash, etc.) are intended for instructional and administrative purposes only and may not be used for any commercial purpose.

Answer
Good news! You can use Adobe Education software (any title!) to produce commercial/professional paid-for work when you leave school, or even while you are in school. In this regard, Adobe does not limit how student software is used. So students can use it to learn and to make money!

(Of course, students must agree to the terms of the End User Licensing Agreement — which appears during installation — just as every software customer must do.)

FoxyKaye
Mar 26, 2007, 12:45 PM
Adobe appears to have graduated from the Microsoft Vista School Of Confusing Upgrades.
I wonder how draconian Adobe is likely to be with upgrades? When you upgrade from CS2 to CS3, does the CS2 computer need to be already activated? Does using the CS2 code to activate an upgrade to CS3 render the CS2 license unusable? They can easily put the screws to the marketplace too much and encourage piracy even by valid customers.

A warning to people considering upgrading to those fancy newfangled versions: Adobe has historically refused to let you then upgrade to anything but that version in the future. So you can't ever, say, "upgrade" to CS4 standard version if you bought the super CS3 version, only the same version. Hence, everyone should really consider what kind of buyer's remorse they might feel in the future and consider opting for individual programs.

No more Golive? That sucks -- unless it's a totally different program from when I used it last, I'd use Claris Home Page 3.0 in Classic mode before I used DW, if I could. I fail to see how Adobe and Macromedia joining is a Good Thing if it means that two important programs that competed with each other nicely now melt into one competition-free program that is virtually unopposed in the marketplace. Since GoLive CS2 was the most crash-tastic program I've ever used in OS X, I'll stick with GoLive CS until I see how things shake out. Maybe they'll release it as a stand-alone product.
No wonder people pirate these things.
Man, some of those prices seem rather high, at least if you are buying these new outright, and not doing an upgrade bundle. I'm glad I'll be doing an upgrade from the CS2 suite, so it won't be so hard to swing...Still, it DOES seem like the overall prices have jumped a bit with this suite rev. I hope they're really worth it.
Let's give it up for Monopolies! A big round of applause for corporate mergers and diminished choice! Many thanks to the folks at the federal government that let these deals slide right through with little or no regulation! I can't WAIT for all the phone companies to come together again, without the federal oversight we had back before Ma Bell was broken up. Airlines, too, w00t!

Good thing I don't really use much of this stuff, but the nonprofit I work for does. We're riding fine with CS2 and Dreamweaver 8, and it would appear as if we'll keep doing so as well. The good news to me at least is that the next round of Mac Pros will probably be fast enough to compensate for the performance loss of running the big guys like Photoshop and Illustrator in Rosetta. I'd much rather spend our tech budget on better (and longer lasting) equipment than an overpriced software bundle.

-hh
Mar 26, 2007, 12:46 PM
umm... if you can wait until 09, you don't need it anyway. Next.

Actually, I said *FY*09.

Our budget submission for FY08 was just done last month, so I'm now only 11 months away from when I'd have to submit my FY09 proposals. If the CS3 upgrade was compelling and reasonably priced, I would finesse a budget line to squeeze it into FY08, but what it really comes down to is that at more than double of $400/node, except for native Intel Mac support, its not particularly compelling. It ends up being Adobe's loss when their product features and pricing structures encourages us to just perform "skip upgrades".


-hh

GFLPraxis
Mar 26, 2007, 12:49 PM
EDIT: Never mind, already answered.

inkswamp
Mar 26, 2007, 12:52 PM
Umm... except BBedit sucks now too. BBedit was fine for the days of designing with tables, but it reeks for doing CSS sites. Dreamweaver is great if you need to create templated sites that allows the users to work in Contribute to update their content. Or do you enjoy doing the work a secretary should be doing?...

There are many other tools for creating great sites. And if you are doing large-scale corporate sites, why aren't you using a CMS?...

Wow, great attitude. I've never done secretary work but I wouldn't denigrate it like that.

The problem is that lots of "web developers" out there attempt to integrate Dreamweaver into their CMS or produce pages with DW in that kind of environment which is a nightmare. I've seem it many, many times over.

FYI, I was designing and developing tools that allowed non-technical staff to update content for outlets associated with two of the biggest media companies on the planet so I think I know what I'm talking about. I have no interest in relying on Dreamweaver for how that should work. Anyone assuming the title "web developer" shouldn't either, as far as I'm concerned.

For very large sites with lots of non-static content, Dreamweaver is a bust. End of story. It complicates and already complicated thing. Like I said, it's a fine tool for small-ish sites, but I just don't understand how you'd make something like that work for a large site with its own CMS (although, as I said, I've seen people attempt it on more than one occasion.) It just doesn't work.

Besides, I disagree with earlier comments about DW. Even for casual work, it produces some pretty convoluted code. I just don't see why anyone would want to use it. if you know what you're doing and know how to organize a project, you can hand-write a small site more quickly and more efficiently than with DW.

GFLPraxis
Mar 26, 2007, 12:53 PM
If the licensing in CS3 works like it did with CS2, then you can only activate it on 2 machines at the same time. That does not mean you can't install it on as many computers as you want, just that it can only be activated for use (via the Internet) on 2 workstations simultaneously. Since activation and de-activation is a relatively simple process, you could conceivably install it on all 3 machines, activate it on the 2 most commonly used ones, then, deactivate it on one when you know you need to use the 3rd.

But if you wanted to use it on all 3 at the same time, even if not on the same network, you're out of luck, unless Adobe has changed their policy on this. One can hope I guess.

That's a pain. So I'll have to deactivate and reactivate every time I switch if I use three computers, eh?

Maybe someone'll crack it.

Ugh. They force even the legitamite users to crack their products, not just the pirates.

shecky
Mar 26, 2007, 12:56 PM
But if you DO get the academic discount then you can't use the software for paying jobs, only for personal use.

If you are a student typically they give you about 50% off but then you have no way to make money with the product or deduct the price off taxes.

we covered this already, you ARE ALLOWED to use edu version of adobe stuff to make money with.

Question: Does design work pay so poorly that it can't cover a $1,000 piece of software? What's the after tax price of $1,000? Can you put software on a three year schedule? If so it comes right off yor taxable income. So for most people that's a 30% or more discount

there is a difference between a designer making a living at design and someone doing the occasional paid project. 100% of my income comes from design work so its not a problem at all for me. and my experience is that design work pays nicely, or maybe i am just getting lucky. (knocks on wood either way)

wildmac
Mar 26, 2007, 12:57 PM
Good thing I don't really use much of this stuff, but the nonprofit I work for does. We're riding fine with CS2 and Dreamweaver 8, and it would appear as if we'll keep doing so as well. The good news to me at least is that the next round of Mac Pros will probably be fast enough to compensate for the performance loss of running the big guys like Photoshop and Illustrator in Rosetta. I'd much rather spend our tech budget on better (and longer lasting) equipment than an overpriced software bundle.

Actually, I said *FY*09.

Our budget submission for FY08 was just done last month, so I'm now only 11 months away from when I'd have to submit my FY09 proposals. If the CS3 upgrade was compelling and reasonably priced, I would finesse a budget line to squeeze it into FY08, but what it really comes down to is that at more than double of $400/node, except for native Intel Mac support, its not particularly compelling. It ends up being Adobe's loss when their product features and pricing structures encourages us to just perform "skip upgrades".

-hh

The issue with that is InDesign. It's just plain buggy in Rosetta. PS and Ill run fun under Rosetta, without any major crashes, but InDesign does have problems.

Compatibility is the other issue. If you don't trade files with others, then you should be fine.

And finally, speed on large files... you'll see a big difference with PS native with large files. But, if you are just doing web graphics, then not upgrading is fine.

CoreWeb
Mar 26, 2007, 12:57 PM
Wow, great attitude. I've never done secretary work but I wouldn't denigrate it like that.

The problem is that lots of "web developers" out there attempt to integrate Dreamweaver into their CMS or produce pages with DW in that kind of environment which is a nightmare. I've seem it many, many times over.

FYI, I was designing and developing tools that allowed non-technical staff to update content for outlets associated with two of the biggest media companies on the planet so I think I know what I'm talking about. I have no interest in relying on Dreamweaver for how that should work. Anyone assuming the title "web developer" shouldn't either, as far as I'm concerned.

For very large sites with lots of non-static content, Dreamweaver is a bust. End of story. It complicates and already complicated thing. Like I said, it's a fine tool for small-ish sites, but I just don't understand how you'd make something like that work for a large site with its own CMS (although, as I said, I've seen people attempt it on more than one occasion.) It just doesn't work.

Besides, I disagree with earlier comments about DW. Even for casual work, it produces some pretty convoluted code. I just don't see why anyone would want to use it. if you know what you're doing and know how to organize a project, you can hand-write a small site more quickly and more efficiently than with DW.

Exactly. GoLive too, really. They are meant for designing with limited php, etc code. I therefore use Eclipse (no WYSIWYG editor, just plain HTML, PHP, etc. Minimalist. Though I do wish opening documents in new windows like GoLive was easy...).

wongulous
Mar 26, 2007, 01:03 PM
I'm sure I'm just going to be flamebait by saying this, but I could never in my wildest dreams afford this. The bundle I'd want cost more than my whole Mac, and several times what I make in a month... I'd have to max out a whole year's worth of student loans to buy it... I'd have to not eat for 3/4 of the year... so I'm really not going to feel bad about downloading it illegally. Even if I had the ability to buy it, I wouldn't, for that price. I make no money from it anyhow, I only use it for pranks and fixing the occasional photo and screwing around with my personal website and home movies and making decent PDFs and such. Adobe, you suck for doing this with the price hikes. (And before anyone says that my attitude is the reason that their prices are so high, you're wrong--their prices are so high because people will pay them and they have no serious competition; as I said, I'm not depriving them of any monies because I would have to make $50k a year more than I do now to justify these costs.)

Maybe the academic price won't be COMPLETELY insane.

wildmac
Mar 26, 2007, 01:04 PM
Wow, great attitude. I've never done secretary work but I wouldn't denigrate it like that.

The problem is that lots of "web developers" out there attempt to integrate Dreamweaver into their CMS or produce pages with DW in that kind of environment which is a nightmare. I've seem it many, many times over.

FYI, I was designing and developing tools that allowed non-technical staff to update content for outlets associated with two of the biggest media companies on the planet so I think I know what I'm talking about. I have no interest in relying on Dreamweaver for how that should work. Anyone assuming the title "web developer" shouldn't either, as far as I'm concerned.

For very large sites with lots of non-static content, Dreamweaver is a bust. End of story. It complicates and already complicated thing. Like I said, it's a fine tool for small-ish sites, but I just don't understand how you'd make something like that work for a large site with its own CMS (although, as I said, I've seen people attempt it on more than one occasion.) It just doesn't work.

Besides, I disagree with earlier comments about DW. Even for casual work, it produces some pretty convoluted code. I just don't see why anyone would want to use it. if you know what you're doing and know how to organize a project, you can hand-write a small site more quickly and more efficiently than with DW.

Good for you. write your own program and sell it.

The right tool for the right job.

The point was I want to enable the secretary to change the phone # on the page and NOT call me to do it. Dreamweaver/Contribute works great for that.

Also, I use DW as my hand-coding tool as I can use it to create templates, and users can ad pages based on those templates. You don't HAVE to let DW generate the code.. I still code by hand, I just do it in DW.

Sure, if you use DW's visual layout tools, the code is a mess. But I don't use those tools.

DW is also great for when you are handing off a site to a client so you can build it with templates, they can edit, and you can update the templates later.

And ANY tool like DW is a bust for dynamic content. That's what CMS's are for.

mark88
Mar 26, 2007, 01:05 PM
Makes me laugh seeing the price differences between England and America. I'll have to pay £1264 for Adobe Creative Suite 2 Premium Design (with Flash) here, which is nearly $2,500. I wish your software was that cheap here!

Amazon UK had the prices up this morning, Master collection was over £2k, and it's only $2399........

How do us UK folk go about purchasing software from the US? seems pretty ridiculous for something that you can download over the internet, all we are buying is the serial numbers.

VAT + Customs for a serial number, no thanks!

CoreWeb
Mar 26, 2007, 01:06 PM
I'm sure I'm just going to be flamebait by saying this, but I could never in my wildest dreams afford this. The bundle I'd want cost more than my whole Mac, and several times what I make in a month... I'd have to max out a whole year's worth of student loans to buy it... I'd have to not eat for 3/4 of the year... so I'm really not going to feel bad about downloading it illegally. Even if I had the ability to buy it, I wouldn't, for that price. I make no money from it anyhow, I only use it for pranks and fixing the occasional photo and screwing around with my personal website and home movies and making decent PDFs and such. Adobe, you suck for doing this with the price hikes. (And before anyone says that my attitude is the reason that their prices are so high, you're wrong--their prices are so high because people will pay them and they have no serious competition; as I said, I'm not depriving them of any monies because I would have to make $50k a year more than I do now to justify these costs.)

I hate when companies become monopolies. Microsoft, Adobe...

Heck, even Apple is (practically) when it comes to the iPod, only... the iPod is actually kind of cheap (they keep LOWERING the prices, not raising them)

mark88
Mar 26, 2007, 01:08 PM
No wonder people pirate these things.

Very true!

The pricing is out of control, especially UK pricing. And if you can't get the bundle you want you have to buy another bundle.

The prices of the apps alone are very unattractive, you think 'whats the point buying it alone is for a couple hundred more I get 2 more apps'

GFLPraxis
Mar 26, 2007, 01:08 PM
I'm sure I'm just going to be flamebait by saying this, but I could never in my wildest dreams afford this. The bundle I'd want cost more than my whole Mac, and several times what I make in a month... I'd have to max out a whole year's worth of student loans to buy it... I'd have to not eat for 3/4 of the year... so I'm really not going to feel bad about downloading it illegally. Even if I had the ability to buy it, I wouldn't, for that price. I make no money from it anyhow, I only use it for pranks and fixing the occasional photo and screwing around with my personal website and home movies and making decent PDFs and such. Adobe, you suck for doing this with the price hikes. (And before anyone says that my attitude is the reason that their prices are so high, you're wrong--their prices are so high because people will pay them and they have no serious competition; as I said, I'm not depriving them of any monies because I would have to make $50k a year more than I do now to justify these costs.)


Woah there; Creative Suite currently costs $1199, but Academic pricing is $399.

Just buy it with student discount.

Let's wait till Adobe unveils student pricing. If it's more than $500, I wouldn't feel bad about pirating it either; and I'm very anti-piracy. (I use it for non-profit work anyway!)


But you know, despite being extremely anti-piracy, Adobe is making me wonder. My current stance is I hate piracy because I feel it takes away money from the developers who put work into the product and that it undermines our economy (companies cannot afford to pay for development if people take the product free), and I will pay for an application deserving.

So far my only exception has been Microsoft products. I paid for Office, but I would never pay for Windows; if it's needed, it's because Microsoft's illegal monopoly is FORCING the user to install it (that's why I borrowed a corporate copy for my MacBook).

But Adobe's insane monopolistic pricing is making me rethink them too. At this point, I'm still on track to buy Creative Suite though (I'm not planning to pirate it), assuming the Academic pricing is reasonable.

NuDarwin
Mar 26, 2007, 01:08 PM
That's a pain. So I'll have to deactivate and reactivate every time I switch if I use three computers, eh?

Maybe someone'll crack it.

Ugh. They force even the legitamite users to crack their products, not just the pirates.

You shouldn't feel like you are forced to crack a copy of cs3. If it's really important, then you should buy the additional license. or, maybe someone clever can write an automatic activator/deactivator. that'd be cool; if you could pre-program it with all of the computers that you want to run cs3 on, and then with a single click, it would shift around all of your activations.

anyone feel like coding?

wildmac
Mar 26, 2007, 01:09 PM
I'm sure I'm just going to be flamebait by saying this, but I could never in my wildest dreams afford this. The bundle I'd want cost more than my whole Mac, and several times what I make in a month... I'd have to max out a whole year's worth of student loans to buy it... I'd have to not eat for 3/4 of the year... so I'm really not going to feel bad about downloading it illegally. Even if I had the ability to buy it, I wouldn't, for that price. I make no money from it anyhow, I only use it for pranks and fixing the occasional photo and screwing around with my personal website and home movies and making decent PDFs and such. Adobe, you suck for doing this with the price hikes. (And before anyone says that my attitude is the reason that their prices are so high, you're wrong--their prices are so high because people will pay them and they have no serious competition; as I said, I'm not depriving them of any monies because I would have to make $50k a year more than I do now to justify these costs.)

First of all, you have no pity from me if you choose to steal.

Second, there are edu versions.

Third, it is a pro tool. There are alternatives for the casual user. GIMP, etc.

do you want a corvette for the price of a hundai as well?...

GFLPraxis
Mar 26, 2007, 01:13 PM
You shouldn't feel like you are forced to crack a copy of cs3. If it's really important, then you should buy the additional license. or, maybe someone clever can write an automatic activator/deactivator. that'd be cool; if you could pre-program it with all of the computers that you want to run cs3 on, and then with a single click, it would shift around all of your activations.

anyone feel like coding?

That would make me happy :D

wongulous
Mar 26, 2007, 01:17 PM
First of all, you have no pity from me if you choose to steal.

Second, there are edu versions.

Third, it is a pro tool. There are alternatives for the casual user. GIMP, etc.

do you want a corvette for the price of a hundai as well?...

I wasn't asking for pity--I was only adding my own commentary.

The academic/edu versions will help, and I'll have no problem getting one with loans, though I will gripe about it if it is more than $300. I'm sure that they are still making at least 100-150% profit margins even with academic pricing, if you divide the development/team/office/marketing costs among all of the projected license sales. Now, take a look at how much profit they're probably making from retail price... or even upgrade pricing, which is merely a dent in the cases listed in the table, keeping in mind that upgrade users have already paid for what is at least 75-85% of the codebase in the suite they're re-purchasing. It has new features and interface and stability, I'm sure of it, but not 75% or more new codebase. How ridiculous.

If anything, I'll steal it because I don't believe it is worth the price of a Corvette sports car for what is little more than a Chrysler, and because I disagree with their increasing prices, increasingly-restrictive EULA(s), and because I'm not depriving anyone of any money, property, or income; I wouldn't buy it at retail price even if I had $2500 lying around. I'd have to be using it to make 10 times that amount per year to justify the price. Adobe can have its corporate and professional customers that will begrudgingly, and gradually, be forced to upgrade to CS3 and pay these prices. All they'll get from me is a couple hundred bucks if they come out with decent academic prices.

CoreWeb
Mar 26, 2007, 01:19 PM
First of all, you have no pity from me if you choose to steal.

Second, there are edu versions.

Third, it is a pro tool. There are alternatives for the casual user. GIMP, etc.

do you want a corvette for the price of a hundai as well?...

It isn't so much the price but the fact that it seems the price is higher... If it was always this way, people wouldn't be complaining. Scratch that, everyone loves complaining. ;)

But what I don't like is the bundles they have. But I think I can survive with the Design Premium bundle.

By the way - I would never pirate it.

NuDarwin
Mar 26, 2007, 01:20 PM
[already posted]

NuDarwin
Mar 26, 2007, 01:21 PM
First of all, you have no pity from me if you choose to steal.

Second, there are edu versions.

Third, it is a pro tool. There are alternatives for the casual user. GIMP, etc.

do you want a corvette for the price of a hundai as well?...

I quite agree. I have no sympathy for you if you are complaining about the price of professional software. Because if you are, then either:

A. You are a pro, and will make the money back from buying the software after one job. To most pros who are self employed and must therefore buy their own software, even the $2500 to buy master collection would be tiny compared to their other operating expenses.

B. You are a pro, and cannot afford to buy a copy of CS3. If this the case, then don't worry about it, because I've never heard of anyone losing a client because they use CS2. Besides, most pros are already using some version of cs/photoshop, and upgrade pricing is quite reasonable.

C. You are a poor student. Academic pricing is cheap. The ~$400 you will end up paying is nothing compared to what you will learn from the class you are taking.

D. You are a serious amateur. If you are in this category and cannot afford to buy cs3, then since clearly isn't worth your money, stick with what you've already got or go for elements.

E. You are a "photoshop cowboy" i.e. 12 years old. No offense or anything, but stick to kidpix.

What it all boils down to, is if it is worth your money, you should seriously consider buying it. If it isn't really, then don't complain to the world.

Kwill
Mar 26, 2007, 01:25 PM
I've pretty much accepted that I will need to upgrade all my graphics apps to Intel-native versions when the new multi-core Mac Pros are available. I just had no idea how much it would cost.

The Vista-like pricing matrix is quite confusing. To be fair, there is much to consider -- particularly with the Macromedia merger -- which products to bundle, who qualifies for upgrades, cross-grades...

Perhaps Adobe would have done better to take a hint from Apple: Sell one or two packaged bundles. Then give users BTO options.

Nevertheless, it appears that current Creative Suite users can upgrade to CS3 Design Standard for $400 or to CS3 Web Premium for $500.

Preparing graphic design for scientists may push me to the CS3 Premium for $1200. I will be listening closely to the media event to see how files created with Photoshop 3 Extended work with Photoshop 3.

Burai
Mar 26, 2007, 01:25 PM
Third, it is a pro tool. There are alternatives for the casual user. GIMP, etc.

do you want a corvette for the price of a hundai as well?...

Exactly. These are pro tools and they go for a pro price. Any designer or design firm worth their salt would be able to afford these prices anyway. If they can't, then I'd say that their problems are far more fundamental than needing the latest version of Photoshop.

It genuinely astonishes me that people actually cough up the price of a Photoshop licence for the "work" they do (ie, tidying up holiday photos) when something like Photoshop Elements or Paintshop Pro would be more than sufficient for their home user needs and far better value for money.

aafuss1
Mar 26, 2007, 01:26 PM
I'm hoping the Australian pricing will be OK.

dcr
Mar 26, 2007, 01:26 PM
   

CoreWeb
Mar 26, 2007, 01:29 PM
I quite agree. I have no sympathy for you if you are complaining about the price of professional software. Because if you are, then either:

A. You are a pro, and will make the money back from buying the software after one job. To most pros who are self employed and must therefore buy their own software, even the $2500 to buy master collection would be tiny compared to their other operating expenses.

B. You are a pro, and cannot afford to buy a copy of CS3. If this the case, then don't worry about it, because I've never heard of anyone losing a client because they use CS2. Besides, most pros are already using some version of cs/photoshop, and upgrade pricing is quite reasonable.

C. You are a poor student. Academic pricing is cheap. The ~$400 you will end up paying is nothing compared to what you will learn from the class you are taking.

D. You are a serious amateur. If you are in this category and cannot afford to buy cs3, then since clearly isn't worth your money, stick with what you've already got or go for elements.

E. You are a "photoshop cowboy" i.e. 12 years old. No offense or anything, but stick to kidpix.

What it all boils down to, is if it is worth your money, you should seriously consider buying it. If it isn't really, then don't complain to the world.

Actually, looking at the upgrade table, the upgrade options aren't all that great. But I'll be getting a student discount, probably. Otherwise, it looks like I'll be spending >$1000. (Probably)

And even small businesses aren't willing to drop >$1000 for this kind of program. What about relatively small print/mail shops which need Photoshop for color management, InDesign for opening/refining customer documents, and Acrobat Professional? These won't want to spend >$1000, though they are professionals.

So there are people who will rightly complain. You cannot speak for everyone.

TheBobcat
Mar 26, 2007, 01:30 PM
I pirate software all the time, I don't have any problems sleeping at night. They gouge their prices because pros will pay it. So the way I see it, by me pirating it, they're not losing a sale since I wouldn't have bought it in the first place. :cool:

:eek: :D

aafuss1
Mar 26, 2007, 01:30 PM
Any guess to what the Bangkok/Hong Kong/Moscow street trader prices will be?

I paid about $200 for CS2 from someone in Russia (I can install and apply updates-even though it might be a pirated version).

alexf
Mar 26, 2007, 01:31 PM
As a GoLive user for seven years - and who has legally upgraded with each new version - I am really feeling screwed now.

It is not right that Adobe does not offer any upgrade discount for Dreamweaver CS3 from GoLive users. Why do users of a Macromedia product get to upgrade to an Adobe one (i.e. Freehand to Illustrator), but not users of an Adobe product to a Macromedia one? :confused:

If I want to switch from GoLive to Dreamweaver, I will have to pay the surprisingly high retail price of the latter.

This isn't the first time over the years that I have felt screwed by Adobe - and, judging from the comments in this forum, I am definitely not alone. :mad:

- A Former Loyal Adobe Customer

CoreWeb
Mar 26, 2007, 01:33 PM
- A Former Loyal Adobe Customer
Well, as there aren't any other choices, aren't you still going to be a loyal customer?

wildmac
Mar 26, 2007, 01:35 PM
If anything, I'll steal it because I don't believe it is worth the price of a Corvette sports car for what is little more than a Chrysler, and because I disagree with their increasing prices, increasingly-restrictive EULA(s), and because I'm not depriving anyone of any money, property, or income; I wouldn't buy it at retail price even if I had $2500 lying around. I'd have to be using it to make 10 times that amount per year to justify the price. Adobe can have its corporate and professional customers that will begrudgingly, and gradually, be forced to upgrade to CS3 and pay these prices. All they'll get from me is a couple hundred bucks if they come out with decent academic prices.

No pity.

So you'll steal the Vette because in YOUR OPINION is isn't worth the price they ask for it?.. What kind of twisted logic is that?...

There are alternatives, especially for your stated uses. If you don't like the price, buy something else, or use the freeware tools like GIMP.

volvoben
Mar 26, 2007, 01:36 PM
I hate to say it, but Adobe really has become a bit of a Microsoft...

But to try to be as sickeningly positive as possible, monopolistic software does mean that you'll never go to a new job and say "ah crap, they don't use Photoshop here, they use Picturegarage!". It's even more than industry standard, it's industry prerequisite. OK, that's sounding negative, I'd better move on...

Hopefully I can get CS3 print standard for $200 like i got CS2 through my girlfriend's edu discount, but I was thinking with so damn many applications that adobe would be better off selling it piece by piece, ie photoshop costs $XXX, dreamweaver costs $XXX, but if you buy 2 you get %XX off the total price. I'm sure it's too complicated a pricing scheme, but the packages are getting aaaaaaaaaaawfully complex *ahemvistaahem*.

I suppose I'm lucky that I can't be so picky, I'm guessing I'll end up with print standard and keep using dreamweaver and flash mx.

A friend who lives in Moscow bought photoshop cs2 (windows) on the street for about US$10 a while back just to play with it. It installed and acted just like the real thing, but with no activation or anything. He thought it may have actually been genuine, but I'm sure it was just cracked very well. Without a major drop in prices (I was thinking if adobe wanted to stomp out piracy by folks who don't want to pirate but who really can't afford it they'd need to price each standard suite around $400) CS will probably remain #2 behind windows on the 'most pirated' list.

wildmac
Mar 26, 2007, 01:36 PM
As a GoLive user for seven years - and who has legally upgraded with each new version - I am really feeling screwed now.

It is not right that Adobe does not offer any upgrade discount for Dreamweaver CS3 from GoLive users. Why do users of a Macromedia product get to upgrade to an Adobe one (i.e. Freehand to Illustrator), but not users of an Adobe product to a Macromedia one? :confused:

If I want to switch from GoLive to Dreamweaver, I will have to pay the surprisingly high retail price of the latter.

This isn't the first time over the years that I have felt screwed by Adobe - and, judging from the comments in this forum, I am definitely not alone. :mad:

- A Former Loyal Adobe Customer

As far as I know, they haven't stopped production of GoLive. It's still supposed to be out as a consumer app. It's never been a part of CS, has it?.. so your problem is?...

CoreWeb
Mar 26, 2007, 01:37 PM
No pity.

So you'll steal the Vette because in YOUR OPINION is isn't worth the price they ask for it?.. What kind of twisted logic is that?...

There are alternatives, especially for your stated uses. If you don't like the price, buy something else, or use the freeware tools like GIMP.

I agree with you, not wildmac, that it shouldn't be stolen. I don't agree that the prices and bundling scheme are proper, however.

TheBobcat
Mar 26, 2007, 01:37 PM
No pity.

So you'll steal the Vette because in YOUR OPINION is isn't worth the price they ask for it?.. What kind of twisted logic is that?...

There are alternatives, especially for your stated uses. If you don't like the price, buy something else, or use the freeware tools like GIMP.

I wouldn't steal the Vette, but I would steal software.

Why? Well, duh, because you won't get caught stealing software.

If I had the means to steal a Vette (if I didn't already own one :p ), and wouldn't get caught, hell yeah I'd steal it.

wildmac
Mar 26, 2007, 01:38 PM
ok, I'm done here... the thiefs are outnumbering the legitimate users...

alexf
Mar 26, 2007, 01:38 PM
As far as I know, they haven't stopped production of GoLive. It's still supposed to be out as a consumer app. It's never been a part of CS, has it?.. so your problem is?...

Wrong. GoLive has ALWAYS been part of the Creative Suite. (That's what "CS" means, as in GoLive CS2)

shecky
Mar 26, 2007, 01:39 PM
I wouldn't steal the Vette, but I would steal software.

Why? Well, duh, because you won't get caught stealing software.

If I had the means to steal a Vette (if I didn't already own one :p ), and wouldn't get caught, hell yeah I'd steal it.

this gets my vote as the stupidest post ever on macrumors.

alexf
Mar 26, 2007, 01:39 PM
Well, as there aren't any other choices, aren't you still going to be a loyal customer?

Yes, a sad but good point.

TMay
Mar 26, 2007, 01:39 PM
I may find Acrobat 3D useful at some point, especially when version 8 comes out, and for you CAD users, the upgrade from version7 (and above) of Acrobat Pro is $545.

Gaining Acrobat Pro is possibly a good reason for some to consider a bundle that they might otherwise dismiss.

CoreWeb
Mar 26, 2007, 01:40 PM
I wouldn't steal the Vette, but I would steal software.

Why? Well, duh, because you won't get caught stealing software.

If I had the means to steal a Vette (if I didn't already own one :p ), and wouldn't get caught, hell yeah I'd steal it.

I don't think it is morally right that Adobe is doing what they are doing. (Pricing/bundling methods.)

However, two wrongs do not make a right. It is wrong to steal. No matter what, I won't steal the software.

TheBobcat
Mar 26, 2007, 01:40 PM
this gets my vote as the stupidest post ever on macrumors.

You just can't handle brutal honesty.

Blue Velvet
Mar 26, 2007, 01:41 PM
And even small businesses aren't willing to drop >$1000 for this kind of program. What about relatively small print/mail shops which need Photoshop for color management, InDesign for opening/refining customer documents, and Acrobat Professional? These won't want to spend >$1000, though they are professionals.


They will already have licenses and won't be paying full retail as they'll be upgrading...

Christ, everyone's getting their knickers in a twist about this and Adobe haven't even announced upgrade prices yet which I bet will be very reasonable considering how much money you can earn with these tools.

This thread is full of the most ridiculous sky-is-falling hoo-ha.

alexf
Mar 26, 2007, 01:41 PM
I wouldn't steal the Vette, but I would steal software.

Why? Well, duh, because you won't get caught stealing software.

If I had the means to steal a Vette (if I didn't already own one :p ), and wouldn't get caught, hell yeah I'd steal it.

Now isn't it comforting to know there are people like that out there?

shecky
Mar 26, 2007, 01:41 PM
You just can't handle brutal honesty.

and you can't handle legitimacy. and i dont see brutal honesty, just an ignorant attitude.

NuDarwin
Mar 26, 2007, 01:41 PM
Actually, looking at the upgrade table, the upgrade options aren't all that great. But I'll be getting a student discount, probably. Otherwise, it looks like I'll be spending >$1000. (Probably)

And even small businesses aren't willing to drop >$1000 for this kind of program. What about relatively small print/mail shops which need Photoshop for color management, InDesign for opening/refining customer documents, and Acrobat Professional? These won't want to spend >$1000, though they are professionals.

So there are people who will rightly complain. You cannot speak for everyone.

its the cost of business.

if they need a specific piece of software in order to run their business, then its a no brainer: you buy (or more likely upgrade) to the new software.

Besides, even a really small print shop could afford the $1000. If they can't, then they probably aren't doing the type of business (i.e. working with pros) that requires cs3.

CoreWeb
Mar 26, 2007, 01:44 PM
its the cost of business.

if they need a specific piece of software in order to run their business, then its a no brainer: you buy (or more likely upgrade) to the new software.

Besides, even a really small print shop could afford the $1000. If they can't, then they probably aren't doing the type of business (i.e. working with pros) that requires cs3.

I know they can afford the $1000+. But they will delay it as long as possible. And meanwhile, the artists hired there will suffer with their MacBook Pros waiting for the UB version. As for upgrade - the upgrade options didn't look too good.

I'm hoping these pricings aren't real. (At least the upgrade ones)

Then again, as I'll probably get it educational anyway, it won't really matter, will it?

GFLPraxis
Mar 26, 2007, 01:46 PM
Well, the wait for Academic pricing is on.
If it's not less than $500 for a Premium suite or under $400 for Standard, I'm doing without :(

I wouldn't steal the Vette, but I would steal software.

Why? Well, duh, because you won't get caught stealing software.

If I had the means to steal a Vette (if I didn't already own one :p ), and wouldn't get caught, hell yeah I'd steal it.

That's really sad. You'd do something that would harm others as long as you wouldn't get caught?

TheBobcat
Mar 26, 2007, 01:47 PM
and you can't handle legitimacy. and i dont see brutal honesty, just brutal ignorance.

Oh I can handle legitimacy, and whenever possible pay for software. I just can't afford legitimacy in this case. :D

Although this is all really irrelevant for me for a variety of reasons, the most being that I'll just buy it from the University Computer Store, here CS2 is like $149, so one of the CS3s probably will be somewhere higher, but hopefully comparable.

CardboardCanary
Mar 26, 2007, 01:47 PM
Perhaps I'm just missing something really obvious here, but the upgrade table confuses me on the CS3 Master Collection upgrades. It looks as though there is one upgrade for SRP $1,999 and another for SRP $1,399 which are both from the same applications (although CS 2.3 Premium is strangely not on the list for the cheaper upgrade). The cheaper upgrade also has three asterisks after "CS3 Master Collection" and yet there are no footnotes indicating what these mean. Is one the "upsell" and the other one the "upgrade"? It would be nice to know which of these prices is the actual upgrade price. (Apologies if this has already been asked and answered.)

TheBobcat
Mar 26, 2007, 01:48 PM
That's really sad. You'd do something that would harm others as long as you wouldn't get caught?

Honestly, it depends on the perceived harm and what the benefit was to me.

shecky
Mar 26, 2007, 01:49 PM
This thread is full of the most ridiculous sky-is-falling hoo-ha.

++ well said.

GFLPraxis
Mar 26, 2007, 01:49 PM
Perhaps I'm just missing something really obvious here, but the upgrade table confuses me on the CS3 Master Collection upgrades. It looks as though there is one upgrade for SRP $1,999 and another for SRP $1,399 which are both from the same applications (although CS 2.3 Premium is strangely not on the list for the cheaper upgrade). The cheaper upgrade also has three asterisks after "CS3 Master Collection" and yet there are no footnotes indicating what these mean. Is one the "upsell" and the other one the "upgrade"? It would be nice to know which of these prices is the actual upgrade price. (Apologies if this has already been asked and answered.)

It hasn't been asked, but after googling, it seems that the two applications with the asterix are Windows-only, no Mac versions. Could that be it?

NuDarwin
Mar 26, 2007, 01:51 PM
I know they can afford the $1000+. But they will delay it as long as possible. And meanwhile, the artists hired there will suffer with their MacBook Pros waiting for the UB version.

look, granted you can find exceptions to anything. but the fact is that you're missing the point of my post; if the software is worth your money, then what is the point of grumbling over the price? its not like moaning about it is going to make the price go down, or waiting to buy it make the $1199 charge any less expensive. in a nutshell, if the software is going to pay for itself, why should you be complaining about how expensive it was to begin with?

alexf
Mar 26, 2007, 01:53 PM
This thread is full of the most ridiculous sky-is-falling hoo-ha.

True, but what would a MacRumors thread be without everyone blowing things out of proportion? (Part of the fun of it, I guess.)

CardboardCanary
Mar 26, 2007, 01:54 PM
It hasn't been asked, but after googling, it seems that the two applications with the asterix are Windows-only, no Mac versions. Could that be it?

That would be a wretched thing if the Mac upgrade was $600 more expensive than the Windows version of the same product. It would almost certainly stop me from buying the upgrade.

ElderBrE
Mar 26, 2007, 01:57 PM
They will already have licenses and won't be paying full retail as they'll be upgrading...

Christ, everyone's getting their knickers in a twist about this and Adobe haven't even announced upgrade prices yet which I bet will be very reasonable considering how much money you can earn with these tools.

This thread is full of the most ridiculous sky-is-falling hoo-ha.

Ignorance at it's best.

I'm sorry, but your personal situation is not the personal situation for everyone else who has a right to give out their opinion. I'm glad we've been out of the whole "The Sun turns around Earth" philosophy for hundreds of years, but it seems we haven't progressed much beyond the theory.

Again, you =/= everyone, simply said. Stop acting like your word is truth, it's not.

--

As for the Suite itself, it's priced like I would've guessed it would, hopefully Academic won't be too bad, but if you're used to working with this software and can't use academic anymore, I feel bad for you =/

Blue Velvet
Mar 26, 2007, 01:59 PM
True, but what would a MacRumors thread be without everyone blowing things out of proportion? (Part of the fun of it, I guess.)


Actually, I think in the long run, it drives calmer and more reasoned posters away...

Bet they won't be bitching like this in prepressforums. ;)

NuDarwin
Mar 26, 2007, 01:59 PM
You just can't handle brutal honesty.

we're all starting to sound really righteous here, but seriously...

stealing software is bad. it makes us legitimate users of software pay more. its the reason for the cs3 price hike. if you steal the software, then it clearly isn't worth your money, and you have no business using it.