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MacRumors
Jun 11, 2003, 09:40 PM
One anonymous report claims that Apple will be creating a new Control Surface (hardware) for both Final Cut Pro and eMagic's Logic. (example (http://www.emagic.de/products/hw/control/index.php?lang=EN))



applemacdude
Jun 11, 2003, 09:50 PM
Hmmm...I don't think this will happen but we will see

Chef Ramen
Jun 11, 2003, 10:06 PM
i doubt it but that would be SO sweet

pascalpp
Jun 11, 2003, 10:12 PM
I doubt it too, but I sure love my Logic Control!

One thing I wish Apple would do is help eMagic clean up Logic's user interface...

scem0
Jun 11, 2003, 11:03 PM
am I the only person who's lost? What is a logic control surface?
-scem0

GregGomer
Jun 11, 2003, 11:07 PM
Yah, pretty unlikely, simply because they already have the logic control. Made by Mackie, using some of the best parts around. Mackie also makes a similar product, the Mackie Control, very similar, you can put different Lexan Overlays on it to customize it depending on the program you want to use it with. So, since Apple and Logic already have a great piece of hardware that is fabulous for Logic, and would work equally well for Final Cut Pro, why reinvent he wheel. Unless they wanted something way cheaper? But for that there is the Mackie HUI.

Anyhoo, I think most people would be a bit put out if Apple created there own Control Surface. Most people who would are most likely to use one, probably already own one. I think they'd be much more likely to add support for a control surface, which would be huge. Then test the waters and see if one of their own is a good idea.

As well, Apple usually doesn't make add on Hardware, i.e. the AJA IO, or Matrox Realtime card, Apple partnered with to help design such products. But let those companies produce and market them. With most hardware things, Apple would rather have 3rd parties do it, then them build it themselves it seems. And for this, they already own the 3rd party that has the Logic Control.

Anyoo, probably a good reason why this rumor made the back page.

zimv20
Jun 12, 2003, 02:04 AM
Originally posted by pascalpp

One thing I wish Apple would do is help eMagic clean up Logic's user interface...

i second that...

pascalpp
Jun 12, 2003, 02:17 AM
Originally posted by scem0
am I the only person who's lost? What is a logic control surface?
-scem0

The Logic Control is a piece of hardware with faders and knobs and buttons that allows you to manipulate oncscreen faders and knobs in eMagic's audio software which is called Logic. (eMagic was acquired by Apple late last year so there is much speculation as to what will become of the acquisition.)

To see what the Logic Control looks like, click the example link at the top of this thread.

dstorey
Jun 12, 2003, 06:56 AM
Maybe they will just use the old one and get Ive's to redesign the skin to make it match with the Mac line. That would be sweet.

webplummer
Jun 12, 2003, 10:05 AM
What if it is related to the "Apple is making an iPod for DJs" rumor?

Say, a DJ can load a ton of loops and samples into his iPod, then get to the club and dock it into some sort of mixing station, with access to all his samples.

I think Apple wouldn't necessarily make this piece of equipment, but they could be working with another manufacturer who already has distribution, marketing, and cache in the DJing world.

L-Fire
Jun 12, 2003, 11:43 AM
The rumors I've been hearing since february say that they are aiming more toward a pro level control surface such as the Pro Control or Control 24 by Digi. I heard emagic was teaming up with Euphonix to produce such a console, while Digi is teaming up with Solid State Logic to produce the replacement for the Pro Control. Either of these can't be priced less than at least 7 or $8k.

nuckinfutz
Jun 12, 2003, 12:00 PM
To say there is a rift between Mackie and Emagic/Apple is an understatement. Emagic was NOT happy about Mackie marketing the Logic Controller to other DAW manufacturers.

Apple typically doesn't like to pay licensing fees where they don't have to. Don't be suprised to see an affordable controller built for FCP/Logic utilizing the same functionality of LC but adding in Firewire and perhaps other I/O features. The benefts to both FCP and Logic would be tremendous.

Apple also is a mLAN licensee so I wouldn't be suprised to see that support as well.

Mudbug
Jun 12, 2003, 12:47 PM
Just to sum up, it's a hardware device to control a piece of software that you bought to replace your hardware pieces. Genius marketing. Not saying it doesn't work well, or that it's not a good idea, i'm just sayin'...

GregGomer
Jun 12, 2003, 01:34 PM
Well, if Apple does add control surface support. It would be kind of cool if it had a Media Converter in it, i.e. so you could send out via firewire, but watch on your TV. Both Logic and Final Cut have this feature, but require a Media converter (.i.e. DV to Analog Bridge).

If they do create one of their own, I just hope they don't leave those of use that have a Logic Control, or Mackie Control out in the dark. That is, I hope the Final Cut Pro changes are an open ended thing that allows many control surfaces to work with it, which I'm sure it will be.

Greg

neut
Jun 12, 2003, 01:39 PM
from talking to the emagic teams...they seem to be getting along very well and are interested in ideas from both sides. i think this relationship will grow very striong, but i think it will take a while to work out all the branding issues...

it will be awhile before we see apple logos on emagics harware (which are very nice as is). but when we do...lookout!


peace.

BevvyB
Jun 12, 2003, 02:14 PM
you missread it neut, no one ever said apple was vs emagic

I agree logic could do with some tidying up 'apple' style. i've been using Logic since it came out and it is now overwhelmed with feaures that are in no particular order. It's still the best package though imho

Mackie are a rotten company who make good products. I'm not suprised Emagic were pissed of with them after the controller fiasco.

Apple could create something better. Also, Emagic's hardware line should be much better and broader and give MOTU a run for their money if they ever got it together

And yes there is a gap in the market for a native non-pro tools controller

iIve used all these things extensively.

k2k koos
Jun 12, 2003, 02:34 PM
Personally I think it might be possible that Apple/Emagic are going to come up with a slimmed down version of the Logic controller, to match the imac's design, for all those small project/homestudio owners out there, and in addition even re-name re-brand the basic sequencer package of emagic, now called micrologic AV, and perhaps even logic audio. (base version)

it might get more people than ever on to the Mac for music purposes, afterall the Mac is very established in the pro world, but seems to loose ground here in europe on the consumer side.
Consumer products are important to any company, I like to see Apple's market share back to 10% or more in 5 years time, on that note, WHERE ARE THE APPLE STORES HERE IN EUROPE!!

Get out in the open Apple, you are so hidden from the general public here, in my area it's even hard to find a mac magazine at the news agents, it 's PC's an games consoles everywhere, yuck!

daveg5
Jun 13, 2003, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by Macrumors
One anonymous report claims that Apple will be creating a new Control Surface (hardware) for both Final Cut Pro and eMagic's Logic. (example (http://www.emagic.de/products/hw/control/index.php?lang=EN))
Why, they already have Logic control and mackie control not to mention Roland si-24 and vm3100 (combination audio pci interface/control surface works in os9 and osx (although not documented), Tascam usb 428 and firewire 1884 firewire based 4in4out midi 8in8out audio controll surface, digi oo2 firewire/audio/midi control surface. Yamaha o1x firewire/mlan/midi/audio 8-8 control surface/fx, and many others. also most higher end all in one daws made by Yamaha and roland can also be used for control surfaces. my bet is that apple will upgrade thier usb audio and midi interface to firewire as some others have like m-audio.
If they do come out with one control surface it would look amazing but would have to have tech specs like the yamaha O1X, Protools Digi002, Tascam 1884, Roland SI-24, as all of these are firewire or pci interfaces 40MB/s-133MBs with 8 in-8out audio interfaces, midi interface, control surface, and compatable with more then i brands app.(logic-cubase-deck-dp4 etc.) for $999-$2299. As it is the logic/mackie control surface is overpriced at $999

herr_neumann
Jun 13, 2003, 01:27 AM
A simple low priced setup would be sweet for those of us that are not pros.

BevvyB
Jun 13, 2003, 03:31 AM
It makes total sense.

It's about control in more ways than one.

Something that worked with two flagship mac software products which could also be marketed directly from Apple.

No brainer really.

nuckinfutz
Jun 13, 2003, 08:38 AM
Why, they already have Logic control and mackie control not to mention Roland si-24 and vm3100 (combination audio pci interface/control surface works in os9 and osx (although not documented),

1. Because as I stated above there is a MAJOR rift between Mackie and Emagic over the LC.

2. Licensing fees. Why pay them if you can design a better product yourself(increasing profits)

3. Logic Control does nothing for audio I/O or Final Cut Pro.

4. No PCI. That rules out laptops. Apple will be pushing Firewire as they rightly should.

5. USB must be used sparingly. It's a poor bus for Audio.

6. 3rd party hardware is not as desirable to many users as the homegrown stuff IMO. Any Logic user will know that Hardware from Apple/Emagic is going to work...and work right.


As Bevvyb said this really is a "No Brainer" Using Logic with a mouse sucks and seeing as how Final Cut Pro has much more beefed up support for Audio I could FCP users hopping on this product to make their life easier.

The Yamaha mlan mixer is nice but Apple wouldn't need to offer the built in effects of that unit IMO. Audio Unit support would be handled by the host computer. I'd like to see longer faders too over the Yamaha unit.

MCal
Jun 13, 2003, 03:21 PM
Guys..... I've been sitting on this awhile, but here's whats happening.

Logic Control is over...... Mackie Control is getting Logic support. It'll come with a Logic overlay, and like when Mackie added ProTools support to Mackie Control... I think an Eprom upgrade will be needed by older units....

Mackie Control is gonna rule the roost below Digi ProControl level....

Not sure when this is happening.. maybe a month? but thats a guess....

Al.

GregGomer
Jun 13, 2003, 04:20 PM
So you say the Logic Control is dying, but the Mackie Control is taking over, and will rule that market of low end control surfaces. I agree with you, and think it will rule that market.

I'm just curious though, are you saying Apple will make their own Control because the Logic Control is on it's way out, or are you saying they learnded a lesson, use what's widely available, not proprietary, and for that reason, they'll adopt support in Logic and FCP for the Mackie Control and other units rather then build their own? By the way, just found out that the Mackie Control already does work in Logic in HUI emulation mode.

MCal
Jun 13, 2003, 04:27 PM
I don't know if Apple are making their own surface.. I wouldn't bet on it.... hardware's a big risk these days.

Emagic (Apple) have agreed to supply the Logic Control eprom code to Mackie for supply with Mackie Control's in the near future.

And yes Mackie Control does work in Logic, but the HUI 'template' is nowhere near as comprehensive as Logic Control's, Plus Emagic need something to offer the same amount of control as the Logic Control did.

Al.

GregGomer
Jun 13, 2003, 05:04 PM
I'm excited, I hope your right, I would love it if my Mackie Control could have full Logic support. I hope that they'll add it in a form where I don't have to replace the eprom. Or at least in an eprom update like the Prootools one, where you still maintain compatability with all the other apps. That would be great. Infact, that's one of the few things holding me back from switching to Logic.

Anyhoo, thanks for the insight.

wizart
Jun 14, 2003, 04:39 AM
In my opinion, it's not unlikely that we will se a new controller for Logic made by Apple. Emagic developt the Logic Control, had it made by Mackie, Mackie gives Emagic the finger and promote it themselves..! And no, Mackie control doesn't work "properly" with Logic as Logic Control (why should it..?).
It will not be a hard job for Apple to make a controller that look better that the Logic control we have now.
I think that "nuckingfutz" has some very good points, and I'm definitly not sure that Mackie Control is gonna rule anything - let's see how Mackie are doing the next 6 months.......

MCal
Jun 14, 2003, 04:55 AM
Wizart please read what I wrote.... Emagic will allow Mackie to use the Logic Control code within Mackie Control. We ALL know it does do it yet....


Wizart wrote:" And no, Mackie control doesn't work "properly" with Logic as Logic Control (why should it..?)."


Al.

wizart
Jun 14, 2003, 05:17 AM
Al, I just don't agree in that Emagic will allow Mackie to use the LC source-code in the Mackie control. Not after talking to sources within Emagic and have heard the story behind the Logic controller and what Mackie did afterwards....
- but anyone could be right ... or wrong .. at this time.. ;)

I think it's all about having a controller that's worth the money and works well.

best wishes...

Wizart

MCal
Jun 14, 2003, 06:51 AM
Wizart,
Well all I can say is that I heard this from 'the inside' and I am (to a slightly lesser extent) on the inside of this too. So as long as nothing changes radically from what I was told officially.... this is happening.

I know nothing about an Apple controller. Maybe if they are doing one, then the Logic Control code isn't as valuble to Emagic/Apple, and it wasn't such a big deal to give (sell?) it to Mackie...

We'll see huh? ;-)

Al.

GregGomer
Jun 14, 2003, 12:33 PM
Check out this quote from Mac Whispers. Intersting since they usually don't go off other rumors sight and insiders, but rather, post based on manufaturing plants details and data.

"Finally, we have a steady flow of reports coming in of a whole gamut of new Apple branded accessories: headphones, speakers, cables and connectivity gadgets, at least two new mouse and keyboard designs... and, if these whispers are true, some sort of USB-based control surface device."

MacWhispers (http://www.envestco2.com/macwhispers/archives/000072.php)

daveg5
Jun 16, 2003, 01:34 AM
http://www.zzounds.com/cat--Mixing-Surfaces--2435

http://www.jlcooper.com/pages/cs32.html http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail/0,6373,CNTID%253D21410%2526CTID%253D228600%2526VNM%253DLIVE%2526AFLG%253DY%2526LGFL%253DN,00.html http://www.tascam.com/products/computer_recording/fw1884/index.php http://www.rolandus.com/spprebate/ http://www.digidesign.com/ http://www.dvshop.ca/perifs/keyboards.html http://www.contourdesign.com/shuttlepro/
and many more including keycaps for logic protools and cubase

vixapphire
Jun 17, 2003, 12:58 AM
If Apple/emagic brings out something new, it had better be something with a monitor section!!! if not, it's just a waste of time that will likely be built cheaper (witness those translucent blue midi/audio interfaces, by comparison to the amt/unitor line), suck more and cost less. without that sort of functionality ("listen" volume, please?), there's no point in upgrading from the logic control.

i built my rig around a logic control and 3 xt's (32 faders) and both the yellow 32v waldorf kb and orange rack (plus other assorted racksynths etc.), for "gluteally" maximal midi controller data capabilities, and good looks to boot, so after that amount of investment, i believe i'm qualified to speak on the subject.

the biggest drag in my rig is that i still need to keep a p.o.s. mackie 1604 vlz in the system in order to do things like provide a volume knob for my monitors, etc. i think the logic control rig is great for mixing midi and audio tracks. however, unfortunately it is not the complete solution console replacement, not could it ever be, unless mackie/emagic allowed users to rig the c4/phat channel to handle mundane **** like control room volume, monitor mixes, etc. that would be cool, in its own way. however, has anyone else noticed that the c4 is available as a mackie-branded product but the emagic-branded phat channel (identical kit) is not in channels and has silently disappeared from emagic's web site?

in light of that, i'd imagine the logic control is done as hardware, to be replaced with something smaller (i.e. the tascams) yet more functional (volume controls, etc., i.e.the digi002), and fully redundant with the logic control so that the older hardware is supported in future logic software revisions. i don't reckon they'll stop supporting the logic control/xt, though (and not just because i have several); many of the sw's recent upgrades have seemed directed in large part at increasing the functionality/usability of the logic control, so unless it just doesn't sell at all (possible), it's difficult to imagine them offing it after only 1.5 years.

then again, anything's possible; ford's about to discontinue the thunderbird again, for instance...

vixapphire

madonna has never sounded this good:
www.mp3.com/vixapphire

:rolleyes:

daveg5
Jun 17, 2003, 02:40 AM
Originally posted by vixapphire
If Apple/emagic brings out something new, it had better be something with a monitor section!!! if not, it's just a waste of time that will likely be built cheaper (witness those translucent blue midi/audio interfaces, by comparison to the amt/unitor line), suck more and cost less. without that sort of functionality ("listen" volume, please?), there's no point in upgrading from the logic control.

i built my rig around a logic control and 3 xt's (32 faders) and both the yellow 32v waldorf kb and orange rack (plus other assorted racksynths etc.), for "gluteally" maximal midi controller data capabilities, and good looks to boot, so after that amount of investment, i believe i'm qualified to speak on the subject.

the biggest drag in my rig is that i still need to keep a p.o.s. mackie 1604 vlz in the system in order to do things like provide a volume knob for my monitors, etc. i think the logic control rig is great for mixing midi and audio tracks. however, unfortunately it is not the complete solution console replacement, not could it ever be, unless mackie/emagic allowed users to rig the c4/phat channel to handle mundane **** like control room volume, monitor mixes, etc. that would be cool, in its own way. however, has anyone else noticed that the c4 is available as a mackie-branded product but the emagic-branded phat channel (identical kit) is not in channels and has silently disappeared from emagic's web site?

in light of that, i'd imagine the logic control is done as hardware, to be replaced with something smaller (i.e. the tascams) yet more functional (volume controls, etc., i.e.the digi002), and fully redundant with the logic control so that the older hardware is supported in future logic software revisions. i don't reckon they'll stop supporting the logic control/xt, though (and not just because i have several); many of the sw's recent upgrades have seemed directed in large part at increasing the functionality/usability of the logic control, so unless it just doesn't sell at all (possible), it's difficult to imagine them offing it after only 1.5 years.

then again, anything's possible; ford's about to discontinue the thunderbird again, for instance...

vixapphire

madonna has never sounded this good:
www.mp3.com/vixapphire

:rolleyes:
do you have any pics of your rig. i may get the jlcooper 32 fader for $399 or the tascam 1884 firewire and opt. 8 chaneel strips, there is just to many to chhose from.
the best upgradrade to logic control mackie control imo is to add a firewire interface and 8 in/out 24/96 audio and 4 i/o midi like the $1299 tascam along with $599 8 fader opt boxes with no audio or midi. or cut the price to $599 and $399ext.
wishful thinking huh

vixapphire
Jun 17, 2003, 08:09 PM
I'll get a pic of the rig (complete with the cover off the bottom so all the messy cables are hanging out in open view) up sometime later; i've got photo's on another computer.

what i'd be very excited to see, is whether apple/emagic takes full advantage of the low-latency osx core audio to allow true "live" mixing of hardware in channels of the logic track mixer without the need for delay compensation configuration (as with the tc powercore, etc. systems). this will not be truly a-kicking until motu, etc. upgrade their 24 i/o, 2408, etc. multichannel audio interfaces to work via firewire (possible with 800, perhaps?), rather than pci. plus, as with the new motu 828 mk II, where they've moved the "cuemix" config/routing program onto the hardware, they and other audio hw interface mfr's need to do the same for their other products so that its no longer necessary to run "cuemix" to route audio on a pci card - you should be able to do the routing in logic in the i/o windows on the track mixer. isn't that the purpose of osx's in-built multichannel audio support?

once the foregoing features are implemented, you'd be able to sell your hw outboard signal processing and run native effects on hardware in real time - no more having to cut it to disc first to do the basic eq/comp using native plug-ins. of course, query whether any of this will ever happen, given the increasing migration to native instruments (not just those made by the eponymous company). still, it would be nice...

at that point, digidesign will be singin' the blues b/c the raison d'etre of expensive protools dsp farms will have evaporated. wishfully thinking, the price of used mix+24 systems will fall sufficiently as a result, so that i can buy the cards and a 1622 i/o and get a few more years out of the ol' blue & white g3!!! hell, if that happens, i might even upgrade to one o' those fancy 21" blue & white crt monitors from my current 17"... ;)

logicat2001
Jun 18, 2003, 08:45 AM
Have you considered using this as your "master fader"?

i3audio's master control (http://www.i3audio.com/default.htm)

vixapphire
Jun 18, 2003, 12:18 PM
thanks for the tip; i've never heard of this thing, and it appears to be the perfect solution to my problem. at the moment, i'm running an 828 i/o that's got the phones, mains and latency-free monitoring capabilities, but it doesn't have enough inputs. the i3 box you linked to seems well-suited for the above-described dream-scenario featuring a 24 i/o or similar box.

pardon the slight veering from the topicality, but does anyone listening/reading have experience with running mixes, etc. through logic in real time using both hw and sw sound generators (through the logic mixer w/ effects) in osx? would be very interested to hear people's impressions of osx's reduced latency (i'm still a 9.2 guy myself).

best regards,

now playing at mp3.com/vixapphire

daveg5
Jun 19, 2003, 03:23 PM
i havent seen any diff in latency from my os9 logic/cubase/deck and osx apps cubase/deck, but then 2 of my cards are awaiting better drivers (audiowek2, yamaha dsp factory), there have been many issues with usb 1.1 interface for audio and usb hubs in general documented, but getting much better quickly.and i am using a roland vm3100 rpc1 pci based mixer/sound card combo. midi seems slightly less tight then os9 but oms had many years maturity, midi timing is still good though.
OSX audio apps imho seem just as stable as OS9, my sound card issues aside but i am blessed with a very stable 9.2.2 setup for music, i have what i need for music and a few os9 only apps and games and thats its, just a few gigs on its own drive.
OSX is definately almost there, a little slower with scrolling and screen redraws etc. but the same track count/plug count on my BW 600G4oc 1GBpc133, voodoo 5500/rage128.
Newer faster machines will probably find it faster with 1GHZ+, duals, agp etc.