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princealfie
Apr 16, 2007, 11:39 AM
Note from the moderators: This thread is for non-political/social discussion of the tragedy at Virginia Tech...please keep political and discussion to this thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=297107) in the proper forum.

Gunman kills 21 at Virginia Tech

By SUE LINDSEY, Associated Press Writer 1 minute ago

A gunman opened fire in a dorm and classroom at Virginia Tech on Monday, killing 21 people and wounding another 21 before he was killed, police said.

"Today the university was struck with a tragedy that we consider of monumental proportions," said university president Charles Steger. "The university is shocked and indeed horrified."

The university reported shootings at opposite sides of the 2,600-acre campus, beginning at about 7:15 a.m. at West Ambler Johnston, a co-ed residence hall that houses 895 people, and continuing about two hours later at Norris Hall, an engineering building.

One student was killed in a dorm and the others were killed in the classroom, Virginia Tech Police Chief W.R. Flinchum.

After the shootings, all entrances to the campus were closed and classes canceled through Tuesday.

"There's just a lot of commotion. It's hard to tell exactly what's going on," said Jason Anthony Smith, 19, who lives in the dorm where shooting took place.

Aimee Kanode, a freshman from Martinsville, said the shooting happened on the 4th floor of West Ambler Johnston dormitory, one floor above her room. Kanode's resident assistant knocked on her door about 8 a.m. to notify students to stay put.

"They had us under lockdown," Kanode said. "They temporarily lifted the lockdown, the gunman shot again."

"We're all locked in our dorms surfing the Internet trying to figure out what's going on," Kanode said.

Madison Van Duyne, a student who was interviewed by telephone on CNN, said, "We are all in lockdown. Most of the students are sitting on the floors away from the windows just trying to be as safe as possible."

It was second time in less than a year that the campus was closed because of a shooting.

In August 2006, the opening day of classes was canceled and the campus closed when an escaped jail inmate allegedly killed a hospital guard off campus and fled to the Tech area. A sheriff's deputy involved in the manhunt was killed on a trail just off campus.

The accused gunman, William Morva, faces capital murder charges.

** Eerie similarity to what happened on Trolley Square...

SilentPanda
Apr 16, 2007, 11:51 AM
Wow when I read it earlier today they said just one had been killed... now 21. Not that one is less significant to those families but... I really really don't like guns... I understand hunting and because the bad guys have guns through illegal channels and such... but I just don't think I could ever own one... I'm always afraid somebody would get hurt with mine and I'd feel horrid.

I guess in a week or so the school will be getting sued... :(

Luis
Apr 16, 2007, 11:53 AM
Oh god a friend of mine is studying engineering there... hope he is ok :(

yellow
Apr 16, 2007, 12:09 PM
There's precious little details right at the moment.
Word is that the shooter is dead, but there's no word on how he died.

obeygiant
Apr 16, 2007, 12:39 PM
http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/4940/1176745022884rq3.jpg

An unidentified man is restrained during a manhunt on the Virginia Tech campus in Blacksburg, Va.

yellow
Apr 16, 2007, 12:43 PM
What's that a picture of?

Keebler
Apr 16, 2007, 12:46 PM
this is so sad. i feel for the families and the school. i couldn't imagine that happening. unbelievable.

princealfie
Apr 16, 2007, 12:55 PM
What's that a picture of?

No clue but looks like a screenshot of something.

Lord Blackadder
Apr 16, 2007, 12:56 PM
http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/4940/1176745022884rq3.jpg

All the news agencies are reporting the gunman to be dead (classic mass murder/sucide?), so what is this?

vouder17
Apr 16, 2007, 01:01 PM
All the news agencies are reporting the gunnman to be dead (classic mass murder/sucide?), so what is this?

Paranoia?

Lord Blackadder
Apr 16, 2007, 01:04 PM
Paranoia?

Right now CNN's front page shows four policemen carrying a bloodied body...it doesn't appear to be cuffed. Not sure if it is the gunman.

Horrible. Just horrible.

kgarchar
Apr 16, 2007, 01:05 PM
So sad. Fox is saying 32 dead, 28 others injured and 4 in critical condition.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18134671/

vouder17
Apr 16, 2007, 01:06 PM
Right now CNN's front page shows four policemen carrying a bloodied body...it doesn't appear to be cuffed. Not sure if it is the gunman.

Horrible. Just horrible.

BBC said it was a casualty, but it could really be anything. Indeed a truly sad day for everyone.

epochblue
Apr 16, 2007, 01:07 PM
This whole thing is absolutely horrible. Truly tragic.

mgargan1
Apr 16, 2007, 01:08 PM
horrible horrible!--

The police have assault rifles drawn... Just horrible!

PlaceofDis
Apr 16, 2007, 01:12 PM
terribly tragic doesn't even really begin to express this...

my thoughts go out to all those involved.

mariahlullaby
Apr 16, 2007, 01:14 PM
Wow....I am in shock. I have a friend at Virginia Tech. Everyone there is in my prayers.

dpaanlka
Apr 16, 2007, 01:15 PM
ABC news is now reporting 29 dead.
CBS news is now reporting 30 dead.
FOX news is now reporting 32 dead!

This is so crazy and sad. It creeps me out too, living on a campus. I don't know what I would do in that situation.

On another note, VTech student blogs are interesting:

http://twoscrewsloose.livejournal.com/143175.html

http://cyanne.livejournal.com/294476.html

obeygiant
Apr 16, 2007, 01:20 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_massacre

bartelby
Apr 16, 2007, 01:24 PM
ABC news is now reporting 29 dead.
CBS news is now reporting 30 dead.
FOX news is now reporting 32 dead!


BBC say 22

xparaparafreakx
Apr 16, 2007, 01:28 PM
This is crazy and I hope this does not happen to anyone else.

ClaphamChris
Apr 16, 2007, 01:45 PM
BBC say 22

As a Brit, I'd say it's worth bearing in mind that the BBC is always very cautious in developing events like this. They generally only ever report confirmed figures and err on the side of caution. If the networks are reporting a higher death toll, they may sadly be right. The BBC often catches up when it receives confirmation.

Hope and pray the networks are wrong. Way too tragic already.

robbieduncan
Apr 16, 2007, 01:48 PM
As a Brit, I'd say it's worth bearing in mind that the BBC is always very cautious in developing events like this. They generally only ever report confirmed figures and err on the side of caution. If the networks are reporting a higher death toll, they may sadly be right. The BBC often catches up when it receives confirmation.

Hope and pray the networks are wrong. Way too tragic already.

BBC website updated to 30 :(

dornoforpyros
Apr 16, 2007, 01:50 PM
CBC is saying 31, with cell phone videos!

It's just like being there!

The rush to be the first to air with "exclusive" details of such event is disgusting. These events need to be reported on, but rather than using some compassion for people with family and friends inside the media is overly concerned with getting anything on the air.

"Oh some on called us and said it was as mass suicide of Scientologist because they believe Xenu has come back for them? Print it!"

Keebler
Apr 16, 2007, 01:56 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_massacre

HOLY ****! this is ongoing and someone is updating frickin' wikipedia.

how unbelievable is that. i can't believe someone would do that now.

obeygiant
Apr 16, 2007, 01:57 PM
The rush to be the first to air with "exclusive" details of such event is disgusting. These events need to be reported on, but rather than using some compassion for people with family and friends inside the media is overly concerned with getting anything on the air.


Welcome to the 24 hour news cycle.


07:15 EDT : A 911 call to Virginia Tech Police reports a shooting at West Ambler Johnston Hall, leaving one person dead. [17][18]
09:00 EDT : Shooter opens fire in classroom in Norris Hall, an engineering building

This seem to be a long period of time for the police to respond to a shooting. The shooter had to walk/run to another location to shoot more people.

alexprice
Apr 16, 2007, 02:00 PM
I don't get why people do such horrible acts. I mean to go into a uni and open fire on innocent people. WTF is wrong with these maniacs??:mad:

wordmunger
Apr 16, 2007, 02:02 PM
I've heard a rumor, completely unsubstantiated, that the gunman was a jilted lover from another campus. Went to find his girlfriend in the dorm, shot her roommate. Then went to find her in class. Shot the class, then killed himself.

princealfie
Apr 16, 2007, 02:04 PM
I've heard a rumor, completely unsubstantiated, that the gunman was a jilted lover from another campus. Went to find his girlfriend in the dorm, shot her roommate. Then went to find her in class. Shot the class, then killed himself.

I have broken up with girlfriends before and never went on a rampage. I suspect it was more like a bad day at Halo 2 Live instead.

dpaanlka
Apr 16, 2007, 02:04 PM
HOLY ****! this is ongoing and someone is updating frickin' wikipedia.

how unbelievable is that. i can't believe someone would do that now.

No, a group of people are. This isn't new, Wikipedia has quite a little news operation going on that is fairly self-regulated and reliable.

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Main_Page

synth3tik
Apr 16, 2007, 02:07 PM
THe deadliest shooting in US history from what I hear, for both school and civil shootings, previously Texas held the title for largest school shooting, and civil shooting, 1966 and 1991.

FriarTuck
Apr 16, 2007, 02:07 PM
One of the ABC interviews on the web has a student in a neighboring classroom talking about jumping out the window, and how he heard that his professor didn't make it out and got shot in the face. Then the ABC reporter says, "and what was your professor's name?" and the kid tells him.

Because that's the job of the media -- to put out third-hand hearsay reports that your father/husband/son/brother got shot in the face.

dornoforpyros
Apr 16, 2007, 02:07 PM
I've heard a rumor, completely unsubstantiated, that the gunman was a jilted lover from another campus. Went to find his girlfriend in the dorm, shot her roommate. Then went to find her in class. Shot the class, then killed himself.

Call CNN! They might put you on the TV!

elfin buddy
Apr 16, 2007, 02:08 PM
HOLY *****! this is ongoing and someone is updating frickin' wikipedia.

how unbelievable is that. i can't believe someone would do that now.

I actually appreciate that someone (many people, even) has volunteered time out of their day to scour the internet and update Wikipedia about this incident. It's a marvelous amalgamation of information from many official news sources, which provides a better view of this abhorrent situation.

synth3tik
Apr 16, 2007, 02:15 PM
One of the ABC interviews on the web has a student in a neighboring classroom talking about jumping out the window, and how he heard that his professor didn't make it out and got shot in the face. Then the ABC reporter says, "and what was your professor's name?" and the kid tells him.

Because that's the job of the media -- to put out third-hand hearsay reports that your father/husband/son/brother got shot in the face.

I have been seeing it all the time. We just had a big stink up about media releasing unsubstantiated names of victims recently. It is really sad, that is not the way I would want to kind out a loved one is gone.

Queso
Apr 16, 2007, 02:18 PM
This is truly awful. I don't know what else to say.

wordmunger
Apr 16, 2007, 02:27 PM
NY Times is now reporting that it was a boyfriend looking for his girlfriend. Not clear exactly what happened next, but it seems that at one point he tried to shoot himself. His head wound led to confusion about whether he was the perpetrator. Not clear from the report whether he went on killing others after his suicide attempt.

obeygiant
Apr 16, 2007, 02:33 PM
NY Times is now reporting that it was a boyfriend looking for his girlfriend.

maybe they should ban love instead of guns. Whoever did this had some major screws loose. And its nothing new that people commit suicide after a love affair gone wrong. Its too bad he had to take it out on everybody else before he did himself.

TheBobcat
Apr 16, 2007, 02:51 PM
Imus is probably kicking himself this didn't happen a week ago, he still might have his job since the media maelstrom would have moved on.

wordmunger
Apr 16, 2007, 03:01 PM
Here is a repost of my Cognitive Daily article on this topic:


How can something like this happen? (http://scienceblogs.com/cognitivedaily/2007/04/how_can_something_like_this_ha.php)
Today at least 31 people were killed by gunfire at Virginia Polytechnic Institute, in senseless violence. Early reports suggest that the perpetrator was a boyfriend of a Virginia Tech student who was "looking for his girlfriend."

But whatever the proximal cause of this tragedy, the larger question is how we can prevent such incidents in the future. In the wake of the Columbine shootings, one report (PDF) from the National Institute of Justice suggests that as many as two-thirds of these seemingly random occurrences are preventable. Large attacks are planned, and attackers reveal their plans to others. In one case an attacker had told so many friends that 24 fellow students gathered to watch the planned confrontation.

The report found that profiling students was not effective: there was no common profile of the "school shooter." More important is looking for the warning signs:

In more than half the cases, the attacker's behavior caught the attention of more than one person. Behaviors that led others (e.g. school officials, police, fellow students) to be concerned included those related to the attack, such as efforts to obtain a gun. But they also included behaviors not clearly related to the attack. More than three-fourths of the attackers threatened to kill themselves, made suicidal gestures, or tried to kill themselves before their attacks.

So, it seems, that efforts designed to address suicidal behavior and prevent suicide attempts may have the added benefit of protecting others from the senseless violence of those whose mental problems have led them to contemplate killing themselves. The number of suicides in the U.S. each year is nearly double that of homicide, so addressing the suicide problem is no less urgent than the homicide problem.

obeygiant
Apr 16, 2007, 03:08 PM
Imus is probably kicking himself this didn't happen a week ago, he still might have his job since the media maelstrom would have moved on.

Thats so true. Sad, but true.

ModestPenguin
Apr 16, 2007, 03:17 PM
New Death Toll, Early Details on the Shooter | 2:40 PM ET The Associated Press just increased the death toll to 31, making it the deadliest shooting incident in U.S. history.

Also, CBSNews.com just alerted the following:

CBS News reports the FBI and the ATF believe two handguns were used by the lone gunman at Virginia Tech. He is described as a young Asian male who took his own life. Details soon.

This is horrific. There is nothing that can be said other than my sincere sadness for those who were involved in any way with this. I hope the university provides a solid base of support and counseling for all involved...

Thomas Veil
Apr 16, 2007, 03:18 PM
HOLY ****! this is ongoing and someone is updating frickin' wikipedia.

how unbelievable is that. i can't believe someone would do that now.It is kind of creepy. :eek:

God, my heart goes out to those students and their families. :(

wordmunger
Apr 16, 2007, 03:22 PM
It is kind of creepy. :eek:

God, my heart goes out to those students and their families. :(

I think one way that people cope with tragedies such as this is to write about it. Trying to sort through what exactly happened can be helpful. Coincidentally in a post I made this morning on CogDaily I discussed research suggesting that talking about a tragedy such as 9/11 meant people had less vivid dreams about the event.

I wouldn't be surprised if this extended to writing as well.

yg17
Apr 16, 2007, 03:35 PM
I don't get why people do such horrible acts

I said the same thing after Columbine...and someone told me "Well, you know who Eric Harris and Dylan Kiebold are, don't you?"

These guys are mad. They want to be known for something and this is the way to do it. Just killing themselves wouldn't do anything, but taking 30 other people down with them makes them known

yg17
Apr 16, 2007, 04:20 PM
Watching this press conference, its evident that someone really screwed up. A ton of excuses, and they're dodging good questions

"Well, we had to decide whether or not to cancel classes...."
Huh? I think after the first shots were fired, it's pretty damn obvious you need to cancel classes. Had they cancelled classes and kept people off campus, 30 more people may be out right now having fun with their friends and family, not in bodybags.

"We would have had to send out 35,000 emails!"
Another BS excuse. This isn't the early 90s where you have to type in addresses manually. I work at a college's IT department, and they can send a message to all 12,000 Exchange mailboxes in seconds...literally. Who knows how many lives that also could've saved.

lu0s3r322
Apr 16, 2007, 04:26 PM
obviously there was a huge amount of chaos and information pouring in and it's possible that official were overwhelmed with all that was happening

makes me think that there should be better security at my high school.

my condelences to all the victims and their families.

daneoni
Apr 16, 2007, 04:32 PM
Sad...thats just sad. Security should have taken him out though...i dunno.

Shotgun OS
Apr 16, 2007, 04:34 PM
Watching this press conference, its evident that someone really screwed up. A ton of excuses, and they're dodging good questions

"Well, we had to decide whether or not to cancel classes...."
Huh? I think after the first shots were fired, it's pretty damn obvious you need to cancel classes. Had they cancelled classes and kept people off campus, 30 more people may be out right now having fun with their friends and family, not in bodybags.

"We would have had to send out 35,000 emails!"
Another BS excuse. This isn't the early 90s where you have to type in addresses manually. I work at a college's IT department, and they can send a message to all 12,000 Exchange mailboxes in seconds...literally. Who knows how many lives that also could've saved.

Exactly. The thing is, they had 2 HOURS to evacuate while the gunman had left. The could have at least alarmed the students of the initial shooting.

Major screw up, if you ask me.

dornoforpyros
Apr 16, 2007, 04:35 PM
Watching this press conference, its evident that someone really screwed up. A ton of excuses, and they're dodging good questions

"Well, we had to decide whether or not to cancel classes...."
Huh? I think after the first shots were fired, it's pretty damn obvious you need to cancel classes. Had they cancelled classes and kept people off campus, 30 more people may be out right now having fun with their friends and family, not in bodybags.

"We would have had to send out 35,000 emails!"
Another BS excuse. This isn't the early 90s where you have to type in addresses manually. I work at a college's IT department, and they can send a message to all 12,000 Exchange mailboxes in seconds...literally. Who knows how many lives that also could've saved.

It's pretty easy to sit behind a keyboard and go "well of course you should cancel class!" But it's a lot harder when your on campus and surrounded by mass confusion. You don't know where the gunman is, how many there are, or if it's an isolated case between 2 students, or a full blown assault from a group of people. And the media ringing your phones off the hook doesn't help matters easy.

And then immediately after event your forced to step up to a podium and make a statement and it's suppose to be concise and have all the answers?

I'm not saying mistakes weren't made, I'm just saying put yourself in the schools shoes for a second and realize not every decision is so obvious when your under the hammer.

yg17
Apr 16, 2007, 04:42 PM
It's pretty easy to sit behind a keyboard and go "well of course you should cancel class!" But it's a lot harder when your on campus and surrounded by mass confusion. You don't know where the gunman is, how many there are, or if it's an isolated case between 2 students, or a full blown assault from a group of people. And the media ringing your phones off the hook doesn't help matters easy.

And then immediately after event your forced to step up to a podium and make a statement and it's suppose to be concise and have all the answers?

I'm not saying mistakes weren't made, I'm just saying put yourself in the schools shoes for a second and realize not every decision is so obvious when your under the hammer.

About 2 months ago, a student at my college made a bomb threat and claimed he had anthrax. From the start, most everyone knew this was a distraught student and was full of ***** but the school didn't hesitate in cancelling classes and evacuating and sealing off campus. And fortunately, there was no bomb, and the power was powdered sugar. But they didn't hesitate, and would rather be safe than sorry. There are 2 confirmed shootings at VT and the administration sits around on their ass for 2 hours deciding what to do? Were they too busy reading My Pet Goat or something?

dornoforpyros
Apr 16, 2007, 04:52 PM
About 2 months ago, a student at my college made a bomb threat and claimed he had anthrax. From the start, most everyone knew this was a distraught student and was full of ***** but the school didn't hesitate in cancelling classes and evacuating and sealing off campus. And fortunately, there was no bomb, and the power was powdered sugar. But they didn't hesitate, and would rather be safe than sorry. There are 2 confirmed shootings at VT and the administration sits around on their ass for 2 hours deciding what to do? Were they too busy reading My Pet Goat or something?

While I think a bomb threat is quite different from a shooting. And how big is your school may I ask?

This campus is 25,000 people, effectively a small city, especially if you consider the dorms with people living in them. You don't evacuate an entire city because of one murder do you? I'm sure the administration was trying to wrap their heads around the magnitude of the event before making a knee-jerk reaction.

Yes, in this case it was the "wrong" decision to make and it cost them. But you can't just cry the sky is falling every time something tragic happens.

I'm not saying they made the right decisions, I'm just saying your very quick to judge them when the full story hasn't even come out as of yet.

Legolamb
Apr 16, 2007, 05:00 PM
My heart goes out to the students, family, and community at Virginia Tech. There will be ruminations about what should have, could have been done, but this is neither the time nor place.

TequilaBoobs
Apr 16, 2007, 05:04 PM
go hokies!

so sad to hear about the shooting. even sadder that the community wasnt warned after the first part, and two hours later he killed even more people.

one thing's for certain, the murderer had mental problems.

halfprep455
Apr 16, 2007, 05:08 PM
Omfg!!!!

yg17
Apr 16, 2007, 05:15 PM
While I think a bomb threat is quite different from a shooting. And how big is your school may I ask?

This campus is 25,000 people, effectively a small city, especially if you consider the dorms with people living in them. You don't evacuate an entire city because of one murder do you? I'm sure the administration was trying to wrap their heads around the magnitude of the event before making a knee-jerk reaction.

Yes, in this case it was the "wrong" decision to make and it cost them. But you can't just cry the sky is falling every time something tragic happens.

I'm not saying they made the right decisions, I'm just saying your very quick to judge them when the full story hasn't even come out as of yet.


The entire town, students included, is smaller than the number of students at VT. But I think the point still stands. I'd hardly consider the campus a small city, there's a huge difference between a college campus and a city, even if the campus is bigger than the city. Perhaps it would've been a kneejerk reaction, but for safety's sake, they should've cancelled, because you never know....

dornoforpyros
Apr 16, 2007, 05:20 PM
The entire town, students included, is smaller than the number of students at VT. But I think the point still stands. I'd hardly consider the campus a small city, there's a huge difference between a college campus and a city, even if the campus is bigger than the city. Perhaps it would've been a kneejerk reaction, but for safety's sake, they should've cancelled, because you never know....

For a guy with a NO W avatar I find it odd that you are so caught up in the culture of fear created by events like this.

But this is getting political again, so I shall close my comments in this thread with "horrible event, but not the end the world"

yg17
Apr 16, 2007, 05:32 PM
For a guy with a NO W avatar I find it odd that you are so caught up in the culture of fear created by events like this.

But this is getting political again, so I shall close my comments in this thread with "horrible event, but not the end the world"

I'm not scared, nor am I trying to make anyone else scared. Every day, I go into the same building where there was once a student making bomb threats, claiming he had anthrax, and assaulting police offers with a knife. This stuff doesn't scare me or anyone else I know. Its a risk you take every day you set foot outside your front door. And canceling classes for the day would not have been fear mongering, it would have been doing something that's in the best interests of the students and faculty.

TechHistorian
Apr 16, 2007, 06:09 PM
The entire town, students included, is smaller than the number of students at VT. But I think the point still stands. I'd hardly consider the campus a small city, there's a huge difference between a college campus and a city, even if the campus is bigger than the city. Perhaps it would've been a kneejerk reaction, but for safety's sake, they should've cancelled, because you never know....

So you send out the email at 7:45 when you've ascertained what's transpired (yes, the call came in at 7:15, but the police have to get to the scene, take down statements to find out what happened, inform the admin, etc.). Who do you expect is going to read the email? Quite a few of those students, faculty, and staff are already away from their computers on their way in to campus and the classroom buildings. Even those who aren't may well never read the email before they leave in the morning. The first thing I do in the morning sure isn't reading my email.

The admin acted on the info it had -- a case of domestic violence. You don't shut down a whole campus that size based on a single incident of this nature. I spent 8 years of my life on that campus and I'd willingly go back tomorrow and spend the rest of it there.

Hindsight is 20/20.

TequilaBoobs
Apr 16, 2007, 06:18 PM
So you send out the email at 7:45 when you've ascertained what's transpired (yes, the call came in at 7:15, but the police have to get to the scene, take down statements to find out what happened, inform the admin, etc.). Who do you expect is going to read the email? Quite a few of those students, faculty, and staff are already away from their computers on their way in to campus and the classroom buildings. Even those who aren't may well never read the email before they leave in the morning. The first thing I do in the morning sure isn't reading my email.

The admin acted on the info it had -- a case of domestic violence. You don't shut down a whole campus that size based on a single incident of this nature. I spent 8 years of my life on that campus and I'd willingly go back tomorrow and spend the rest of it there.

Hindsight is 20/20.


if 2 people are murdered on campus, and the killer was NOT found, the school has the responsibility as surrogate parents to close the campus until either the killer was found, or the police had secured the entire campus.

TequilaBoobs
Apr 16, 2007, 06:26 PM
http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/4940/1176745022884rq3.jpg

An unidentified man is restrained during a manhunt on the Virginia Tech campus in Blacksburg, Va.

the suspect was an Asian man wearing a black coat, thats why they are holding down that Asian.

TechHistorian
Apr 16, 2007, 06:27 PM
if 2 people are murdered on campus, and the killer was NOT found, the school has the responsibility as surrogate parents to close the campus until either the killer was found, or the police had secured the entire campus.

The school, a state agency, has no in loco parentis authority. And how do you close the school? Turn away all the people coming on to campus? What if the killer has already fled campus? Or do you evacuate everybody? After all, the attack occurred IN a dorm.

We can second-guess all we want. The reality of the situation is that President Steger did what he felt was best. Second-guessing him, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, is all too easy.

TechHistorian
Apr 16, 2007, 06:30 PM
the suspect was an Asian man wearing a black coat, thats why they are holding down that Asian.

Conjecture on your part. They also handcuffed anyone who did not comply with their orders to get down and raise their hands according to several eyewitness reports posted on the Washington Post and Roanoke Times websites.

Stick to the facts.

yg17
Apr 16, 2007, 06:41 PM
So you send out the email at 7:45 when you've ascertained what's transpired (yes, the call came in at 7:15, but the police have to get to the scene, take down statements to find out what happened, inform the admin, etc.). Who do you expect is going to read the email? Quite a few of those students, faculty, and staff are already away from their computers on their way in to campus and the classroom buildings. Even those who aren't may well never read the email before they leave in the morning. The first thing I do in the morning sure isn't reading my email.

The admin acted on the info it had -- a case of domestic violence. You don't shut down a whole campus that size based on a single incident of this nature. I spent 8 years of my life on that campus and I'd willingly go back tomorrow and spend the rest of it there.

Hindsight is 20/20.

But all it takes is for one person who does read the e-mail to call or text a few of his friends, who call a few of their friends, etc. It wouldn't have gotten everyone off campus, but it would've gotten a lot of people off campus.

When our classes were canceled due to our little threat, they sent out an e-mail, but a lot of people didn't check their mail but heard from word of mouth from others who did get the e-mail. Yeah, some people did come to campus and didn't realize that something was going on until police turned them away, but a lot of students found out beforehand one way or another. FWIW, the first e-mails from our thing were sent out at 7:30 AM and the first classes are at 8.

srf4real
Apr 16, 2007, 06:43 PM
edit - nevermind. I'll save it for the political forum. Truly another sad day in the U.S.A.

synth3tik
Apr 16, 2007, 06:45 PM
if 2 people are murdered on campus, and the killer was NOT found, the school has the responsibility as surrogate parents to close the campus until either the killer was found, or the police had secured the entire campus.


That does not quite work. If you have a shooting, let just say downtown MRville, it's an isolated case. you could not shut down the city. VA Tech is a city. So one thing happens. An incident happens in a dorm room, everything looks as though the person has completed what they sent out to do. There was no reason what so ever for anyone to think that it was not over.

TequilaBoobs
Apr 16, 2007, 06:45 PM
The school, a state agency, has no in loco parentis authority. And how do you close the school? Turn away all the people coming on to campus? What if the killer has already fled campus? Or do you evacuate everybody? After all, the attack occurred IN a dorm.

We can second-guess all we want. The reality of the situation is that President Steger did what he felt was best. Second-guessing him, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, is all too easy.

you are wrong about the in loco parentis. ever hear of 'helicopter parenting'? schools of higher education are now marketing to both students and parents because ethics of late have shown increased transparency between school affairs and parent knowledge.

MIT has been sued twice by parents of MIT students who died. one died of alcohol poisoning during a hazing incident; the other one killed herself by setting herself aflame in her dorm room. MIT settled out of court with both families and admitted responsibility for their loved ones. why? because when kids leave the home for the first time to a different region for college, they expect their child to be well taken care of. Now, MIT has changed their policies on drinking, and have increased the level of training for RA's.

whenever lives are concerned, it's better to err on the side of caution. the campus should have been secured before activity continued. those students were caught unawares because why? they thought it was an isolated incident? now 33 are dead.

TechHistorian
Apr 16, 2007, 06:50 PM
But all it takes is for one person who does read the e-mail to call or text a few of his friends, who call a few of their friends, etc. It wouldn't have gotten everyone off campus, but it would've gotten a lot of people off campus.

When our classes were canceled due to our little threat, they sent out an e-mail, but a lot of people didn't check their mail but heard from word of mouth from others who did get the e-mail. Yeah, some people did come to campus and didn't realize that something was going on until police turned them away, but a lot of students found out beforehand one way or another. FWIW, the first e-mails from our thing were sent out at 7:30 AM and the first classes are at 8.

You've got about 14,000 on-campus students. Some will be in class. Some will be walking around the rather large campus. Some will be asleep, showering, etc. Word-of-mouth will only reach a fraction of them -- and even then it'll be fragmentary information that gets passed on. Ever play the game "Whisper"? You take a large group, whisper to the person next to you, and they pass what you said on to the next one and so on. Almost never comes out intact on the other end.

Not to mention all the off-campus students and faculty/staff.

What would happen is you'd have lots of people all over the place in your scenario -- just as you would if you went ahead and let classes continue.

Tell you what: next time a community of 40,000-some (population of VT + Blacksburg) has two murders, let's all demand that the mayor and police chief shut down the town until the perpetrator is apprehended. Think any community will take that action?

GoCubsGo
Apr 16, 2007, 06:51 PM
This is by far the worst news I've heard in a while not related to the war.
I'm shocked about a comment read on cnn.com where it was said that at 7am when the first shooting took place it took 2 hours for an e-mail to go out about the issue and even then it was only to notify students they were looking into the shooting. 2 hours, email, looking into it....sad..

yg17
Apr 16, 2007, 06:57 PM
You've got about 14,000 on-campus students. Some will be in class. Some will be walking around the rather large campus. Some will be asleep, showering, etc. Word-of-mouth will only reach a fraction of them -- and even then it'll be fragmentary information that gets passed on. Ever play the game "Whisper"? You take a large group, whisper to the person next to you, and they pass what you said on to the next one and so on. Almost never comes out intact on the other end.

Not to mention all the off-campus students and faculty/staff.

What would happen is you'd have lots of people all over the place in your scenario -- just as you would if you went ahead and let classes continue.

Tell you what: next time a community of 40,000-some (population of VT + Blacksburg) has two murders, let's all demand that the mayor and police chief shut down the town until the perpetrator is apprehended. Think any community will take that action?

If it would've saved one life, it would've been worth it.

I still don't see the parallels between a college campus and a town. 2 different things, and it's much more feasible to shut down a campus than an entire town, even if the campus is large.

TechHistorian
Apr 16, 2007, 06:59 PM
you are wrong about the in loco parentis. ever hear of 'helicopter parenting'? schools of higher education are now marketing to both students and parents because ethics of late have shown increased transparency between school affairs and parent knowledge.

MIT has been sued twice by parents of MIT students who died. one died of alcohol poisoning during a hazing incident; the other one killed herself by setting herself aflame in her dorm room. MIT settled out of court with both families and admitted responsibility for their loved ones. why? because when kids leave the home for the first time to a different region for college, they expect their child to be well taken care of. Now, MIT has changed their policies on drinking, and have increased the level of training for RA's.

whenever lives are concerned, it's better to err on the side of caution. the campus should have been secured before activity continued. those students were caught unawares because why? they thought it was an isolated incident? now 33 are dead.

Apples and oranges. MIT is not a state agency. VA is not MA, although both are commonwealths. Laws differ from state to state. Virginia state universities have NO in loco parentis authority. Furthermore, state immunity essentially ensures that the Commonwealth of Virginia and VT cannot be held liable for this.

Everybody who keeps on talking about securing the campus: have you ever been to VT? It's not a small campus. It takes about 5 minutes to cross the Drillfield on foot. Students have 15 minutes to change classes. Blacksburg is a small town with small streets. Block off campus and you'd have incoming traffic jammed up for miles -- and then what if the shooter is outside the campus? He might well go on his rampage there.

The ONLY one to blame for this is the shooter.

dpaanlka
Apr 16, 2007, 07:00 PM
Interesting interview of one of the kids who was shot...

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=67f_1176750363

mrat93
Apr 16, 2007, 07:02 PM
What's that a picture of?

The suspect was said to be Asian with a black leather jacket.

mrat93
Apr 16, 2007, 07:04 PM
I have broken up with girlfriends before and never went on a rampage. I suspect it was more like a bad day at Halo 2 Live instead.

lol. Speaking of Halo 2, my brother's old friend attends there. Luckily he was visiting his brother play in a Halo tourny.

TequilaBoobs
Apr 16, 2007, 07:04 PM
Apples and oranges. MIT is not a state agency. VA is not MA, although both are commonwealths. Laws differ from state to state. Virginia state universities have NO in loco parentis authority. Furthermore, state immunity essentially ensures that the Commonwealth of Virginia and VT cannot be held liable for this.

Everybody who keeps on talking about securing the campus: have you ever been to VT? It's not a small campus. It takes about 5 minutes to cross the Drillfield on foot. Students have 15 minutes to change classes. Blacksburg is a small town with small streets. Block off campus and you'd have incoming traffic jammed up for miles -- and then what if the shooter is outside the campus? He might well go on his rampage there.

The ONLY one to blame for this is the shooter.

when the parents sue VT we will see if VA has no in loco parentis authority. eventually the campus police did secure the campus; they barricaded all entrances to the campus. that happened too late.

im really not concerned about assigning blame as i am sympathizing with the families of loved ones.

SpaceMagic
Apr 16, 2007, 07:07 PM
As a human being, I feel for their families and friends. As a student also, I can't fathom what has happened. I just don't understand it at all and the panic just makes me tear.

I'm not so keen on the President of VT though, he's a bit cold.

TechHistorian
Apr 16, 2007, 07:13 PM
when the parents sue VT we will see if VA has no in loco parentis authority. eventually the campus police did secure the campus; they barricaded all entrances to the campus. that happened too late.

im really not concerned about assigning blame as i am sympathizing with the families of loved ones.

In Virginia, you cannot sue the state or a state agency. Period. Black-letter law. The parents can try to sue, but it won't go anywhere.

Would you, as an adult, accept state control over your actions? Hardly. Hence, it is illegal for a state university in Virginia to assume in loco parentis authority. All violations of student conduct codes are handled by review boards and through due process. And such violations are traditionally where in loco parentis authority is exercised on college campuses.

If it would've saved one life, it would've been worth it.

I still don't see the parallels between a college campus and a town. 2 different things, and it's much more feasible to shut down a campus than an entire town, even if the campus is large.

You haven't said which school you're affiliated with, but does its campus contain a hundred buildings and 35,000 people? There's no real border between the campus and the town of Blacksburg. It's not like there's a chain link fence that separates the two. Large land-grant schools are more like towns, even cities. A small, urban school could be locked down much more easily.

yg17
Apr 16, 2007, 07:23 PM
In Virginia, you cannot sue the state or a state agency. Period. Black-letter law. The parents can try to sue, but it won't go anywhere.

Would you, as an adult, accept state control over your actions? Hardly. Hence, it is illegal for a state university in Virginia to assume in loco parentis authority. All violations of student conduct codes are handled by review boards and through due process. And such violations are traditionally where in loco parentis authority is exercised on college campuses.



You haven't said which school you're affiliated with, but does its campus contain a hundred buildings and 35,000 people? There's no real border between the campus and the town of Blacksburg. It's not like there's a chain link fence that separates the two. Large land-grant schools are more like towns, even cities. A small, urban school could be locked down much more easily.


University of Missouri-Rolla. No, it's not as large as VT, but there's no real border here either.

63dot
Apr 16, 2007, 07:27 PM
1) why didn't they close the campus?

2) why are there people on this forum that think closing the campus was a bad idea?

it's only the worst single shooter massacre in the history of the good ole usa..oh, i guess that does not matter since we are a very young country not much more than a couple of centuries old...sorry for my ignorance

maybe 33 people dead is nothing...nada...just a glitch

TequilaBoobs
Apr 16, 2007, 07:49 PM
Interesting interview of one of the kids who was shot...

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=67f_1176750363

thanks, good link. cant believe he tried to come back and finish them off, but they barricaded the door!

clevin
Apr 16, 2007, 08:15 PM
msnbc now reports death toll at 33

Rodimus Prime
Apr 16, 2007, 09:37 PM
Watching this press conference, its evident that someone really screwed up. A ton of excuses, and they're dodging good questions

"Well, we had to decide whether or not to cancel classes...."
Huh? I think after the first shots were fired, it's pretty damn obvious you need to cancel classes. Had they cancelled classes and kept people off campus, 30 more people may be out right now having fun with their friends and family, not in bodybags.

"We would have had to send out 35,000 emails!"
Another BS excuse. This isn't the early 90s where you have to type in addresses manually. I work at a college's IT department, and they can send a message to all 12,000 Exchange mailboxes in seconds...literally. Who knows how many lives that also could've saved.

like some else said there is a lot more to it than just canceling class. After the first shooting a safe figuring was it was over.
2nd off even sending out those emails would not of kept that many people off campus. Most people really do not check there email that off and those mass school emails people get those every day telling them stuff so they kind of filter out. I sometime will have 5+ of those marked as unread in my inbox just because I get them all the time.
So still would of had a lot of students on campus.
the 35,000 emails is a pretty heavy strain on there system because you have to remember all 35,000 puts a pretty big strain on the servers. Hell my school with 30k breaks up all the announcements into small chunks and it take up to an hour or more before everyone gets one of hte announcements because it broken up to reduce strain on the servers.

Plus canceling class in college pretty hard to do and colleges try to avoid doing it. They can not get waivers for canceled class days and they have to some how make them up. It not like in k-12 where canceling class is a fairly easy thing to do. In college they do worry about accreditation. Loose that and the school is toast.

hindsight 20/20. It was a safe assumption after the first shooting it was pretty much over and contain there so school could go on as normal.

But oh boy you behind a keyboard are so smart and they should of done that. Hell if I was the person making the call I more than likely would NOT of cancel class after the first shooting because I would never of though it would of kept going on.


It is a very very sad event that happened. I do see law suits coming about because people are sue happy but I do not see the school having to pay really more than their legal fees because they did everything by the book and ti was just a very sad event that happened.

Rodimus Prime
Apr 16, 2007, 09:49 PM
1) why didn't they close the campus?

2) why are there people on this forum that think closing the campus was a bad idea?

it's only the worst single shooter massacre in the history of the good ole usa..oh, i guess that does not matter since we are a very young country not much more than a couple of centuries old...sorry for my ignorance

maybe 33 people dead is nothing...nada...just a glitch

for question 1.
University are not exactly schools. They are more like a small to medium size city and have a police force of their own. For protection and what not it runs like a city. it has to because there is no real way to lock down a college campus. They are pretty damn large in land area.

2. People like me are defending the school not being shut down because that it not just a small school but a living breathing city of it own. Come on next time a shooting goes on in your home town have entire city shut down until the killers are caught. NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN.

College trying to keep running like business when things go bad they try to keep things moving along and keep things as normal as possible just like a city tries to do when a bad event happens.

If you noticed the school responding to the incident and yes they cancel classes though tomorrow and my gut telling me it more so they can get the police in there investigating it and get damage control going on. But if you noticed they are going back to business as normal on wed. They have to.

it going to a rough on the students because they have finals coming up in a week or 2 and they still have to go on.

obeygiant
Apr 16, 2007, 09:52 PM
Witness survives by pretending to be dead
BLACKSBURG, Virginia (CNN) -- A gunman who killed at least 30 people at one of two shootings on the campus of Virginia Tech Monday was dressed "almost like a Boy Scout," said a woman who survived by pretending to lie dead on a classroom floor.cnn (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/16/vtech.shooting/index.html)

This gets stranger by the minute. This story is going to saturate the media weeks.

FF_productions
Apr 16, 2007, 09:55 PM
This is devastating, very hard to watch on CNN.


I don't have much to say.

princealfie
Apr 16, 2007, 09:58 PM
The saddest thing is that this incident was preventable, not some random act of fate.

thedude110
Apr 16, 2007, 10:06 PM
I just don't understand it at all and the panic just makes me tear.


This is a thing that makes me spiral -- just imagining the absolute fear in that moment.

This is the rare thing that demands that we feel it.

EricNau
Apr 16, 2007, 10:11 PM
Witness survives by pretending to be dead
cnn (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/16/vtech.shooting/index.html)

This gets stranger by the minute. This story is going to saturate the media weeks.
Makes perfect sense to me. People don't usually shoot people who are already dead.

63dot
Apr 16, 2007, 10:12 PM
for question 1.
University are not exactly schools. They are more like a small to medium size city and have a police force of their own. For protection and what not it runs like a city. it has to because there is no real way to lock down a college campus. They are pretty damn large in land area.

2. People like me are defending the school not being shut down because that it not just a small school but a living breathing city of it own. Come on next time a shooting goes on in your home town have entire city shut down until the killers are caught. NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN.

College trying to keep running like business when things go bad they try to keep things moving along and keep things as normal as possible just like a city tries to do when a bad event happens.

If you noticed the school responding to the incident and yes they cancel classes though tomorrow and my gut telling me it more so they can get the police in there investigating it and get damage control going on. But if you noticed they are going back to business as normal on wed. They have to.

it going to a rough on the students because they have finals coming up in a week or 2 and they still have to go on.

nothing remotely like what you are saying has been said on cnn or fox from what i have seen

so the school is like a city that can't be alerted or shut down?...what?...too impractical?...killer on the loose in the school, but don't tell many people outside of some lockdowns and emails?

what about the people arriving on campus? is it just too little a detail in such a big school?

the campus' official reaction after the first wave of shootings, now that's the main outrage right now, live on tv, as you can see

anyway, when this cools down, analysts may determine that alerting such a big school was impractical, but it's not what is even being hinted at right now

i will also try and watch msnbc and the big 3 networks and see what transpires

if what you say, which seems outrageous, is correct and the school was correct in its reaction and your defense is sound, i will be the first to apologize to you

...and also suggest you go to cnn or fox and replace those reporters who keep on asking why the school did not do more to alert people after the first shootings

EricNau
Apr 16, 2007, 10:24 PM
It's pretty easy to sit behind a keyboard and go "well of course you should cancel class!" But it's a lot harder when your on campus and surrounded by mass confusion. You don't know where the gunman is, how many there are, or if it's an isolated case between 2 students, or a full blown assault from a group of people. And the media ringing your phones off the hook doesn't help matters easy.

And then immediately after event your forced to step up to a podium and make a statement and it's suppose to be concise and have all the answers?

I'm not saying mistakes weren't made, I'm just saying put yourself in the schools shoes for a second and realize not every decision is so obvious when your under the hammer.
No, canceling class was absolutely the right and obvious thing to do. Anytime there is a school shooting with the gunman still at large the only correct thing to do is cancel all classes immediately, place the school under strict lock-down, and require students to shelter in place until the gunman has been located and/or all buildings have been secured.

No exceptions.

Rodimus Prime
Apr 16, 2007, 10:33 PM
No, canceling class was absolutely the right and obvious thing to do. Anytime there is a school shooting with the gunman still at large the only correct thing to do is cancel all classes immediately, place the school under strict lock-down, and require students to shelter in place until the gunman has been located and/or all buildings have been secured.

No exceptions.


Umm read the story. The first shooting the POLICE said it was an isolated incident and the killer probable fed. Based on that advice they choose not to cancel class which at the time was what they though was best.

Just the media likes to blame some one and they are targeting the school. They refuse to accept the fact that it was not something that could be planned on.

Really like people have pointed out it easy to look back and blame some one. if you want to blame any one blame the Police they are the ones that said the first one was isolated. The odds of the killing spree happening where slime to none because almost all other murders are general isolated events. So they saw no reason at the time to cancel class because they figure the killer was gone.

But people want to blame some one and refuse to acted the fact that it was not something that was truly preventable based the infomation they had. They did what they though was the best action and I willing to be good money that all the other major university with 25k or more students would of done the exact same then VA tech did.

Rodimus Prime
Apr 16, 2007, 10:40 PM
nothing remotely like what you are saying has been said on cnn or fox from what i have seen

so the school is like a city that can't be alerted or shut down?...what?...too impractical?...killer on the loose in the school, but don't tell many people outside of some lockdowns and emails?

what about the people arriving on campus? is it just too little a detail in such a big school?

the campus' official reaction after the first wave of shootings, now that's the main outrage right now, live on tv, as you can see

anyway, when this cools down, analysts may determine that alerting such a big school was impractical, but it's not what is even being hinted at right now

i will also try and watch msnbc and the big 3 networks and see what transpires

if what you say, which seems outrageous, is correct and the school was correct in its reaction and your defense is sound, i will be the first to apologize to you

...and also suggest you go to cnn or fox and replace those reporters who keep on asking why the school did not do more to alert people after the first shootings


you know as well as I do that the media will never report that the school didn't do anything wrong. The media gave up a long time ago really giving a damn about the truth. No they report what will sell and lets face it making the school look like a bad guy sells and blaming the school. State that school did nothing wrong and the media will have a field day trying to cause problems.

The simple truth of the matter read some more information on it. It was reported that the police stated that the first 2 shooting where believed to of been isolated and the killer fled, based on that infomation no major university in their right mind would of shut down.

Hell 2 years ago some one was arrested from the door I lived in for a murder they committed over spring break in another city. Guess how the student body even found any of this out. It managed to make it in the school paper the next day but no major media pick it up. Hell the school didn't alert us to a murder being in the dorm I was living in.

Also got to think about the mass panic the alerting would of cause. that is why my university did not alert the student body. It just makes panic and they would rather avoid dealing with panic.

EricNau
Apr 16, 2007, 10:49 PM
Umm read the story. The first shooting the POLICE said it was an isolated incident and the killer probable fed. Based on that advice they choose not to cancel class which at the time was what they though was best.

Just the media likes to blame some one and they are targeting the school. They refuse to accept the fact that it was not something that could be planned on.

Really like people have pointed out it easy to look back and blame some one. if you want to blame any one blame the Police they are the ones that said the first one was isolated. The odds of the killing spree happening where slime to none because almost all other murders are general isolated events. So they saw no reason at the time to cancel class because they figure the killer was gone.

But people want to blame some one and refuse to acted the fact that it was not something that was truly preventable based the infomation they had. They did what they though was the best action and I willing to be good money that all the other major university with 25k or more students would of done the exact same then VA tech did.
That statement of mine was in no way influenced by the media or anyone else. It was my first thought when I heard the shootings were separated by 2 hours - "Why wasn't the school in lock-down?"

I blame the police for mistakingly misleading the school and I blame the school for not using common sense. With a school shooting (especially one that took place in a dorm), you can anticipate that the gunman is a student, and if they fled and are still at large you don't know where they're going (but you can bet they'll be back). ...The decision to place the school under lock-down should have been made before the police arrived.

robPOD
Apr 16, 2007, 10:51 PM
This is so f**kin Sick. 32 People Dead, Holy *****.

Rodimus Prime
Apr 16, 2007, 11:03 PM
That statement of mine was in no way influenced by the media or anyone else. It was my first thought when I heard the shootings were separated by 2 hours - "Why wasn't the school in lock-down?"

I blame the police for mistakenly misleading the school and I blame the school for not using common sense. With a school shooting (especially one that took place in a dorm), you can anticipate that the gunman is a student, and if they fled and are still at large you don't know where they're going (but you can bet they'll be back). ...The decision to place the school under lock-down should have been made before the police arrived.

if you think the media gives a damn about the truth then my friend have a lot to learn. You have to remember the media only cares about one thing and that is making money. And guess what things like this sell very well and gets everyone attention.

I with the school and I think for the time they made the right move. Now if it was a school of less than 10k people then yes shutting it down would of been a valid chose. But when you are the size of a small city you have to think like that and how often murders go from one killing to a killing spree..... ALMOST NEVER. How the hell was the school going to guess that.

Remember hindsight 20/20 and it is so easy for you to judge. You where not the one having to make the call. They work with the infomation they had and based on what they knew at the time shutting down the school would of been the incorrect choice to make. Why shut it down and not continue business as normal when you believe that while the murders where unfortancted the killer is gone and not going t be coming back. I would not of shut the school down at that time in the morning. I would of been with the police.

Also if you read the school did lock down the dorm it happen in. For the safety of the students there. They saw no reason to shut down the campus..

princealfie
Apr 16, 2007, 11:07 PM
I think that the media enjoys this because they can sell more of the story which incurs wrath and polarization. thats the name of their game.

EricNau
Apr 16, 2007, 11:22 PM
if you think the media gives a damn about the truth then my friend have a lot to learn. You have to remember the media only cares about one thing and that is making money. And guess what things like this sell very well and gets everyone attention.
Who's post were you reading? When did I give the impression that I trust the media? I gave the exact opposite impression, in fact.

I with the school and I think for the time they made the right move. Now if it was a school of less than 10k people then yes shutting it down would of been a valid chose. But when you are the size of a small city you have to think like that and how often murders go from one killing to a killing spree..... ALMOST NEVER. How the hell was the school going to guess that.
Likewise, in a real city would you just hope the gunman was gone? Would you just assume he left the city limits? Would you fail to do a proper search? Would you fail to alert the public? ...I should certainly hope not.

Remember hindsight 20/20 and it is so easy for you to judge. You where not the one having to make the call. They work with the infomation they had and based on what they knew at the time shutting down the school would of been the incorrect choice to make. Why shut it down and not continue business as normal when you believe that while the murders where unfortancted the killer is gone and not going t be coming back. I would not of shut the school down at that time in the morning. I would of been with the police.
You should always err on the side of caution when lives are at risk. No one would have blamed the administrators if they cancelled classes to ensure the safety of students. Instead, 30 more students are dead and the school was still shut down.

Also if you read the school did lock down the dorm it happen in. For the safety of the students there. They saw no reason to shut down the campus..
That makes sense. Lock down the dorm where you know the gunman isn't. :rolleyes:

Cougarcat
Apr 16, 2007, 11:25 PM
Hong Kong news (from Yahoo) is reporting that the killer was an exchange student from Shanghai...

Rodimus Prime
Apr 16, 2007, 11:39 PM
Likewise, in a real city would you just hope the gunman was gone? Would you just assume he left the city limits? Would you fail to do a proper search? Would you fail to alert the public? ...I should certainly hope not.
:

LOL you think city alert the public after a shooting..... Now that is funny. I know full out and well that cities do not alert the public about it until guess what the next day or the evening news. Most city do not tell them that they are looking for a murder. I willing to bet that what ever city VA Tech was in was not alert about the first 2 murders.

Just though I tell you cities don't state that infomation. It gets put out in the even news/next day paper.
For a college they can assume that they left pretty safely because that is based on land area and lets face it college pretty small in size in raw land area. Plus is it not a good place to hide if you do not want to be found by the cops. Way to many people about.

EricNau
Apr 16, 2007, 11:58 PM
LOL you think city alert the public after a shooting..... Now that is funny. I know full out and well that cities do not alert the public about it until guess what the next day or the evening news. Most city do not tell them that they are looking for a murder. I willing to bet that what ever city VA Tech was in was not alert about the first 2 murders.

Just though I tell you cities don't state that infomation. It gets put out in the even news/next day paper.
For a college they can assume that they left pretty safely because that is based on land area and lets face it college pretty small in size in raw land area. Plus is it not a good place to hide if you do not want to be found by the cops. Way to many people about.
A very small city of 25,000 within a very small area with the gunman still at large? The surrounding public would be notified for their own safety. ...It's been done in my city (which is many times larger than VA tech).

Besides, it is completely inaccurate to compare a university to a city: the two are very different.

mustard
Apr 17, 2007, 02:04 AM
A very small city of 25,000 within a very small area with the gunman still at large? The surrounding public would be notified for their own safety. ...It's been done in my city (which is many times larger than VA tech).

Besides, it is completely inaccurate to compare a university to a city: the two are very different.

How does that translate?

BTK (wiki) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Rader)- was the most recent serial killer localized in the midwest (Wichita, Kansas) and was not caught until recent - should a lock down of the town/city* ensued after the first, second, third, etc. incident according to yours and the logic of others?

When does a killer become a serial killer is it after 2 hours, 2 years,or 20 years?

It is sad to put it in such terms to say that all killers are not serial killers /mass murders. Logic would state that the original incident was a crime of passion or the such but would no longer pose future loss.

*Pop 2.6mill

mustard
Apr 17, 2007, 02:32 AM
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,266460,00.html

Parents Demand Firing of Virginia Tech President, Police Chief Over Poor Handling of Mass Shooting

odedia
Apr 17, 2007, 03:07 AM
I didn't go over the entire thread, but I wanted to note something that might have not been mentioned:

Virginia Tech was the first customer of the Apple G5 PowerMacs. They actually built a super computer from G5 chips. Steve showed a special video of it during the 2004 MacWorld, I think.

It got to be 3rd place in the world's fastest supercomputers, for that time. And it cost them a fraction of what the second place cost.

I think one of the professors in that Apple video might have been one of the victims, but I'm not sure, because it was I saw it a long time ago...

My sympathies to all the families of the victims.

daneoni
Apr 17, 2007, 03:45 AM
Virginia Tech was the first customer of the Apple G5 PowerMacs. They actually built a super computer from G5 chips. Steve showed a special video of it during the 2004 MacWorld, I think.

It got to be 3rd place in the world's fastest supercomputers, for that time. And it cost them a fraction of what the second place cost.



Yeah....which is why i was so interested in the story when it broke.

Dagless
Apr 17, 2007, 05:40 AM
I normally watch the news whenever I'm eating. But yesterday my sister commandeered the TV so I missed out on all of this. Just read the papers this morning, they're all attacking the police over the snail-like response to the whole situation.

Really sounds like lives would have been saved if they cut the crap and got the message out quickly.
Terrible event really :(

yellow
Apr 17, 2007, 06:58 AM
I'm unsure how people can lay so much blame on the campus police. For one thing, Blacksburg is a tough town. There's plenty of unsavory elements there. How were the campus police supposed to know that after a shooting in a dorm on one side of campus, that someone was going to go crazy on the other side of the campus 2 hours later?

Chrismcfall
Apr 17, 2007, 08:40 AM
News Conference at the moment on the news channels. This really does sadden me.:(

eightd
Apr 17, 2007, 08:54 AM
Gun-loving student wrongly accused (http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/the-internet-thinks-its-me/2007/04/17/1176696821109.html)

He is an Asian-American student at Virginia Tech University, whose personal blogs reveal a recently wounded heart and an eye-opening gun fetish.

But Wayne Chiang - the subject of fevered speculation on the internet - is not the man responsible for this morning's massacre at the southern US university.

Rumours that Chiang, 23, was the mass murderer spread across the world after links to his various blogs were posted on social networking website Facebook and similar sites. Many noted the similarities between Chiang and the person described in accounts of the Virginia Tech tragedy as the shooter.

More than 80,000 people visited Chiang's sites. The sites are decorated with photos of Chiang posing with semi-automatic weapons and Russian rifles. His last post before the killings showed him proudly standing alongside 14 Russian Mosin Nagant M44 weapons.

The sites also suggested a recent break-up, quoting maudlin love songs by Justin Timberlake and Katie Melua and quoting an "American proverb": "There are plenty of fish in the sea". One of the blogs was titled "Those who love at first sight are traitors at every glance".

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2007/04/17/n6202368_33598815_8592_narrowweb__300x414,0.jpg

Rodimus Prime
Apr 17, 2007, 09:07 AM
I'm unsure how people can lay so much blame on the campus police. For one thing, Blacksburg is a tough town. There's plenty of unsavory elements there. How were the campus police supposed to know that after a shooting in a dorm on one side of campus, that someone was going to go crazy on the other side of the campus 2 hours later?


Simple people are idiots and want to blame someone for this. They refuses to accept the fact that no one is to blame but the shooter and everything that the campus and the police did was by the book as was done correctly.

It not helping that the media only cares about ratings and money and not the truth. If they cared about the truth they would tell them that the school did nothing wrong and the call not to cancel class was at the time and with what they knew was the correct call to make. but as I said the media gave up a long time ago giving a damn about the truth.

BiikeMike
Apr 17, 2007, 10:02 AM
This whole thing is quite eerie, and hasn't quite hit home yet. Things are really shaken up here even in my Part of Virginia, and I'm 200 miles away from Blacksburg.

Thankfully, all of my friends and people I know from VT are OK, I know this does not make the event any better, but its nice to know that the people I know are out of harms way, at least for now. One of my friends was visiting her parents for the weekend and decided to stay for an extra day. Monday morning, when she got the phone call, it was her dorm that the shooting took place in.

I just can't understand what why someone would do something like this. Nothing in life can be so bad to take the life of 1 person, let alone 32.

LtRammstein
Apr 17, 2007, 10:25 AM
I want to put in my two cents before this thing takes off like a super-sonic boom.

Where I live, Laramie, WY, my fraternity brothers call me the "Guru of News" since I rarely watch anything else (or read for that matter).

When I heard about this incident, I tried to get as many news sources together to see if they matched, or if one source has more information.

I've concluded that all the facts are pretty reasonable, and that 33 (average value) were killed, and that 15 (again, average value) were injured in some way.


The serial number on both guns (a 9-mm Glock, and a 22-mm, still unknown kind of handgun) were filed off, and that the killer was wear a tan/black vest and in the AP articles, had a backpack for ammo. A receipt for the Glock was found in the backpack. Also, they believe one of the guns, I am GUESSING that it's the Glock, since it doesn't produce as loud of a bang as the 22 hand gun would, was used in the first shooting where the gunman chained the doors from the inside.

Those are all the hard detailed facts that are, in my opinion, indisputable.

Now, there are several questions that remain. A few could be:

1) Was it premeditated? If so, both shootings or one of them?
2) Seeing a fairly basic timeline, was it possible he went off campus to get ammo, the other gun, or to "prepare himself" (in a religious context), to what was coming next?
3) Did he have someone helping him, in a way like the D.C. Sniper Shootings?

The list goes on and on...

I don't want to speculate that much, or at all, but that's what I got.

Anything I get wrong, PLEASE inform me and the thread, because I don't want people taking my theories/thoughts/reporting out of context.

Steve

yellow
Apr 17, 2007, 10:45 AM
The serial number on both guns (a 9-mm Glock, and a 22-mm, still unknown kind of handgun)

I think you mean .22 caliber, not 22mm.. as that would be a major size difference and a mistake, NewsGuru. ;)

And, a 9mm handgun produces a vastly louder report than a .22 caliber handgun.

As a size comparison of fired rounds:

http://tacarm.com/images/Kevlar%20panels%20with%20bullets.jpg

9mm on the left, .22 caliber on the right.

And from left to right:

http://www.restlessadventurer.net/guns/bullets/bullet_banner.jpg

.22 cal Long Rifle, .380 auto, .38 special, 9mm, .357 magnum, .40 s&w, .45 ACP, .44 magnum, 7.62x39mm, 8mm

As you can see.. a rather large difference between a .22 and a 9mm.

Keebler
Apr 17, 2007, 11:45 AM
I think you mean .22 caliber, not 22mm.. as that would be a major size difference and a mistake, NewsGuru. ;)

And, a 9mm handgun produces a vastly louder report than a .22 caliber handgun.

As a size comparison of fired rounds:

http://tacarm.com/images/Kevlar%20panels%20with%20bullets.jpg

9mm on the left, .22 caliber on the right.

And from left to right:

http://www.restlessadventurer.net/guns/bullets/bullet_banner.jpg

.22 cal Long Rifle, .380 auto, .38 special, 9mm, .357 magnum, .40 s&w, .45 ACP, .44 magnum, 7.62x39mm, 8mm

As you can see.. a rather large difference between a .22 and a 9mm.

i would bet that most of the wounded were hit with the .22 round as opposed to the 9mm. the 9mm would inflict serious damage whereas the .22 would do damage, but not on the same scale (but of course it can be deadly if placed in the right area :( . the report of a .22 weapons sounds more like a very loud crack whereas the 9mm would have a much louder report.

joepunk
Apr 17, 2007, 11:54 AM
Here's a little interactive timeline of the events from the NY Times

joepunk
Apr 17, 2007, 11:55 AM
and a few more

840quadra
Apr 17, 2007, 12:22 PM
That statement of mine was in no way influenced by the media or anyone else. It was my first thought when I heard the shootings were separated by 2 hours - "Why wasn't the school in lock-down?"



With hearing about this incident I thought the exact same thing. No media, no website, nothing but a few words from a cowoerker stating that there was a shooting in a dorm, and 2 hours later in classes at the school itself.

Now after hearing the media's version, including their recorded eye whiteness accounts, my thoughts have not changed. Why wasn't the campus secured after the first school shooting, ESPECIALLY after 2 weeks of bomb threats prior to this incident ?!?

carbonmotion
Apr 17, 2007, 02:30 PM
I'm glad the media didn't make this in to a racial thing like they did with the Hmong hunting massacre case in Minnesota. Yes, asians come in the insane flavor like everyone else.

cr2sh
Apr 17, 2007, 02:45 PM
Why wasn't the campus secured after the first school shooting, ESPECIALLY after 2 weeks of bomb threats prior to this incident ?!?

It seems to me like you're looking back at the events and drawing a line between them that was not obvious initially. A cops responds to find a male and female shot on campus, the reasonable action I think is to isolate the scene. I'd assume that it's a domestic fight, bf/gf, homicide/suicide type thing and start trying to figure it out. I would not jump to the conclusion that there's a lunatic on campus and that he's going to kill as many people as possible. If that were the case, why were only two students in the dorm killed?

If the killer had killed more people initially then it might be a reasonable assumption that others might be in danger.. but from the start the clues don't point that direction. You can't lock down an entire campus because two people were killed in the dorm. Should the responding police officer have called the college admin office and said "we've got a dead guy and girl over here in this dorm, let's close all the buildings down, cancel all classes and send everyone home!" At that point, from the available evidence, that sounds like an over-reaction to me.

If every time someone gets shot on a college campus, the campus goes into lockdown mode, not a lot is going to get done. Yesterday was a tragedy and it shouldn't have happened... but your conclusions are drawn in hindsight.

PlaceofDis
Apr 17, 2007, 02:49 PM
my short, brief thoughts:

Here. (http://tmklein.com/poetry/?p=247)

Rodimus Prime
Apr 17, 2007, 03:06 PM
I want to know what the school police where doing after the first shooting. I think the school made the right call after the first shooting and not shutting down because all signed pointed to a domisteic issue so it was a very safe assumtion to shut down the dorm and keep the campus open.

As for the campus police at the very least they should of made themselves very visible and around campus even more so during class changes.

Here at Texas Tech the campus police are very visible at all times and during a class change it pretty rare for me not to be able to see at least one in the medium traffic area and in the high traffic area I normal see multiple police. They have both offices in cars and ones walking around on foot all day and there seems to be more foot officers at night.
But if questionable goes on at campus their presents is noticeable increased. If the police presents was not increase then the campus police screwed up. Now the local PD for what ever city are off the hook because the local PD do not go on to college campus unless called by the campus police but will respond very quickly if called. But that is standard practiced. The local PD stays out of the college police's jurisdiction and college police are a true police department and have all the power of such.

princealfie
Apr 17, 2007, 04:12 PM
I'm glad the media didn't make this in to a racial thing like they did with the Hmong hunting massacre case in Minnesota. Yes, asians come in the insane flavor like everyone else.

Ignorance is always a foul thing. Of course, being Asian-American it's sad that some people don't assimilate very well into culture but it feels quite like Camus' Stranger in many ways. Portrait of the existentialist...

CorvusCamenarum
Apr 17, 2007, 04:34 PM
I'm glad the media didn't make this in to a racial thing like they did with the Hmong hunting massacre case in Minnesota. Yes, asians come in the insane flavor like everyone else.

Don't be so sure. (http://newsbusters.org/node/12091)

The Chicago Tribune (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-070417vtech-shootings,0,1137509.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed) is reporting the perpetrator had written "Ismail Ax" on himself. (You have to register to get to the second page). Does anyone have an idea as to what this might mean?

Sideonecincy
Apr 17, 2007, 04:49 PM
Some people have no morals...http://cgi.ebay.com/VIRGINATECHGUNMAN-COM-Virginia-Tech-Shooting-Domain_W0QQitemZ330110474916QQihZ014QQcategoryZ11153QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Transic
Apr 17, 2007, 04:50 PM
*

TequilaBoobs
Apr 17, 2007, 04:51 PM
Ignorance is always a foul thing. Of course, being Asian-American it's sad that some people don't assimilate very well into culture but it feels quite like Camus' Stranger in many ways. Portrait of the existentialist...

Cho was depressed with rage, an insalubrious mix that others saw but didnt report. vt will definitely change their RA training and policies because this carnage was preventable. had nothing to do with his race, and i hope south koreans dont get hostility from americans.

and some schools have a cheap software program that allows them to simultaneously send out text messages to cell phones - that could handle 26k students without jamming the phone system. after last august, after the recent bomb threats, you'd think vt would invest in some precautions.

at least now most schools will have this software. just a shame people died when technology permits instant notification to communities.

840quadra
Apr 17, 2007, 04:59 PM
It seems to me like you're looking back at the events and drawing a line between them that was not obvious initially......

No.

I am drawing the same conclusion that I did when someone at the U of M (Minnesota) was assaulted by an unknown subject on campus.

I hear now (after my original post) that the school did send out a mass email, and notification to everyone they could. This satisfies my concern / gripe. It is just too bad they didn't send it sooner. However, with recently active bomb threats, I would have expected the school to act sooner than it did initially!

Transic
Apr 17, 2007, 05:02 PM
*

TequilaBoobs
Apr 17, 2007, 05:04 PM
No.

I am drawing the same conclusion that I did when someone at the U of M (Minnesota) was assaulted by an unknown subject on campus.

I hear now (after my original post) that the school did send out a mass email, and notification to everyone they could. This satisfies my concern / gripe. It is just too bad they didn't send it sooner. However, with recently active bomb threats, I would have expected the school to act sooner than it did initially!

email is not sufficient, as others have said some people dont check it periodically. maybe if they had sent a text message stating that 2 were killed and others injured, with the killer at large, classes will be canceled until further notice, blah blah blah. that would have worked, fo sho.

faintember
Apr 17, 2007, 05:13 PM
AOL links to two plays he wrote about a year ago, as a college Junior.

http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/

Most people have commented on the violence in them, but as a creative writing major, I've read things far more violent and disturbing. They really don't stand out in that regard for me. What I find frightening is the level of his work; early high-school or late middle school at best. They are no where near the level of work that you should be writing in a college playwriting class. It's like he was emotionally stuck in a time of past hurt, neglect, or some kind of traumatic event. After reading those two plays, I have to wonder how well he was doing in college...
Thanks for posting the link, and I do agree with you in that the content of the plays is pretty mild, where as the level of writing evident makes me wonder how he even was allowed into college.

Maybe there are other plays by him that are worse, but I fail to see how those two plays are to serve as "warning signs". Seems to me like the media is blowing these plays out of proportion for added sensationalism.

CorvusCamenarum
Apr 17, 2007, 05:17 PM
email is not sufficient, as others have said some people dont check it periodically. maybe if they had sent a text message stating that 2 were killed and others injured, with the killer at large, classes will be canceled until further notice, blah blah blah. that would have worked, fo sho.

Probably only up until classes let out. Obviously I can't speak for how things go at VT, but many of my own professors have a cell-phone-off policy during class. The last time my university shut things down (for a freak blizzard of all things) they just had University Police and staff members go around telling everyone they saw what was up. Worked fairly well for a campus of about 20k students.

ToddW
Apr 17, 2007, 05:20 PM
there was a student when i went to arkansas who shot a professor during school. it was pretty surreal, i was walking to class which was located on the floor in that same bldg. i was pretty freaked out by the whole thing, which doesn't compare to how the students probably feel at VT. i really brings that safety feeling that you have being on campus away. VT is in my prayers.

Rodimus Prime
Apr 17, 2007, 05:20 PM
Thanks for posting the link, and I do agree with you in that the content of the plays is pretty mild, where as the level of writing evident makes me wonder how he even was allowed into college.

Maybe there are other plays by him that are worse, but I fail to see how those two plays are to serve as "warning signs". Seems to me like the media is blowing these plays out of proportion for added sensationalism.

over a year ago and they think that is a warning sign for now... wow Thank you media again for not giving a damn about the truth and proving it as well.

Also I find it strange how other parts of his writing is not being shown on the media. I bet I can guess the reason, because they do not contain anything that could be considered warning signs. No one will think of warning signs with 2 pieces of work out of he 10+ he writes per semester.

840quadra
Apr 17, 2007, 05:24 PM
I think the school made the right call after the first shooting and not shutting down because all signed pointed to a domisteic issue so it was a very safe assumtion to shut down the dorm and keep the campus open.

I understand and agree with some of what you said (in the rest of the post), however there also was a few points that should have been factored in.

A lot was unknown at the time (granted) , but what they did know was that the killer was still loose on a large school campus, and they also knew of recent bomb threats for parts of the campus. What they didn't know, was who the actual target was, or if there was anyone else on his / her list.

email is not sufficient, as others have said some people dont check it periodically. maybe if they had sent a text message stating that 2 were killed and others injured, with the killer at large, classes will be canceled until further notice, blah blah blah. that would have worked, fo sho.

Watch or read the online reports, there was more than just Email being sent, calls were also made.

TequilaBoobs
Apr 17, 2007, 05:33 PM
there were signs. like his roommate who attempted to chat with Cho several times only to be answered with a word, as a way to end conversations. the same roommate walked in on Cho staring at his desk with nothing on it, but he just chalked it up to being weird. i believe RA's should be inclined to get to know their students, just to make sure there are no red flags. a loner who doesnt talk to his roommate, who doesnt adorn his room with posters, pictures or personal effects, would signal a red flag in my book.

EricNau
Apr 17, 2007, 07:43 PM
How does that translate?

BTK (wiki) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Rader)- was the most recent serial killer localized in the midwest (Wichita, Kansas) and was not caught until recent - should a lock down of the town/city* ensued after the first, second, third, etc. incident according to yours and the logic of others?

When does a killer become a serial killer is it after 2 hours, 2 years,or 20 years?

It is sad to put it in such terms to say that all killers are not serial killers /mass murders. Logic would state that the original incident was a crime of passion or the such but would no longer pose future loss.

*Pop 2.6mill
No. First of all, there is no way to compare a university with a city. The two are very different. Secondly, if you must compare the two as if they were the same, you can't compare a "city" of 25,000 to a city of over 2 million.

I think the school made the right call after the first shooting and not shutting down because all signed pointed to a domisteic issue so it was a very safe assumtion to shut down the dorm and keep the campus open.
At that point the gunman was still at large - he could have been anywhere. They didn't know if he had fled or was walking straight over to the next building. Nothing should ever be assumed in a case like this.

Their first thought should have been, "We need to place the entire school on lock-down until we locate the gunman or every building has been secured." ...This should have happened before the city police even arrived to voice their opinion.

joepunk
Apr 17, 2007, 07:52 PM
...and some schools have a cheap software program that allows them to simultaneously send out text messages to cell phones - that could handle 26k students without jamming the phone system. after last august, after the recent bomb threats, you'd think vt would invest in some precautions.

at least now most schools will have this software. just a shame people died when technology permits instant notification to communities.

That would be useless for those w/their phones turned off like mine was most of the time I was in my Uni. campus.

I would think that a simple loudspeaker system would be much more efficient in the case of a large campus and I always wondered why the few Colleges/Universities that I went to never seemed to have such in place around the campus and in classrooms.

Transic
Apr 17, 2007, 07:53 PM
*

cr2sh
Apr 17, 2007, 08:34 PM
Their first thought should have been, "We need to place the entire school on lock-down until we locate the gunman or every building has been secured." ...This should have happened before the city police even arrived to voice their opinion.

In Blacksburg, VA between 2001 and 2005, there have been a grand total (total, not average) of 4 murders. That's less than 1 per year. While I understand your desire for them to have acted more pro-actively, I'm not sure that in this community the thoughts that are running through your mind (after the fact) occurred to them at 7:30am on a sleepy Monday morning.

It just seems like you think that all of these things are obvious and that someone should have done all of these things, and someone is to blame for not seeing them. I don't think that's fair. I think you have to respect the decisions of the person who lives in that town, who works as a cop on that campus, who was standing in that dorm at 7:30 am and calling the shots... and not stand back in hindsight and say, "Oh you should have done more."

Rodimus Prime
Apr 17, 2007, 09:42 PM
At that point the gunman was still at large - he could have been anywhere. They didn't know if he had fled or was walking straight over to the next building. Nothing should ever be assumed in a case like this.

Their first thought should have been, "We need to place the entire school on lock-down until we locate the gunman or every building has been secured." ...This should have happened before the city police even arrived to voice their opinion.


what funny is the first reaction the school did is what any other school would do. My Jr. high I went to had a teacher claim in the morning that some one shot a gun at her on the school campus. No gun man was found and guess what the school went on as normal minus that one teacher. The Jr has less than 1000 students and they did not react to the gun man that was never found.
Now upon more investigation the teacher was fired over this and she was charge with a crime a few days later. But if you not a small school did not change business as normal.

The ONLY reason this is being a made a big deal is because of the killing 2 hours later. If the first murders happen and nothing after it, guess it would of made a 30 sec clip on the news stating what happen and that the college stayed open. And no one would of said a thing. If the university had shut down after the first one they would of gotten a lot of flack for over reacting to a DOMISISIC problem.

Also I might like to point out that you still would of had 9k plus people on campus and all just as easy to get 2 in the dorms. Just go on a shooting spree in there. Then people would of be complain why didn't they have everyone living on campus get off of it for a day killer at large and believe to be in the city some where....

Point being there is why you have to University is a small city and has to run as both a place of education and a city at the same time. You have people living there 9 months out of the year. A lot of people and it not like you can just tell them all to leave for a what looks like a domestic murder. Try doing that to a town of 5k when a murder happens. You are not going to shut down a town of that size for tell everyone to leave because you do not know where the killer is.

Based on a lot of your post it seems like you are not in college yet or never been to college which leads me to believe you really do not understand what a lot of us are saying who attend major university and we can see why they are small cities in themselves.

You trashed the Campus police which is a fully fledged police force and have the power as such. Local PD do not and will not come on to a college campus unless they are requested 2. Any 911 calls that happen on a college campus will get direct to the campus police to address. The local PD will not go on to the campus it not their place. All colleges are like that. They do not want the local PD patrolling the college and they rather have their own police force who job is only to protect the campus handle it and have a much better ratio to student:Police ratio than a city has with Resident:police. Hell in most college towns the campus police force is LARGER than the local PDs. Reason is the college population is larger than the local PD's. Sweetwater OK is a town of 18k during the summer and during the school year that number is oh about 40K. Guess which police force is larger. I would not be surprised at all if the University police force as the same size if not larger than Blacksburg's.

mustard
Apr 17, 2007, 10:06 PM
No. First of all, there is no way to compare a university with a city. The two are very different. Secondly, if you must compare the two as if they were the same, you can't compare a "city" of 25,000 to a city of over 2 million.

They are both bodies that function as a "city", both have a subset of residents, geographically area, a governing body, healthcare provisions, law enforcement, employees, criminals, good samaritans... the list goes on.

In reference to BTK the size is vastly different, I understand that (I pointed it out for those that didn't) the emphasis is on the time frame. If every single homicide was treated as people here are saying, nothing would happen in the United States because it would all be locked down.

There is a homicide that takes place every hour in the US (http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/h/homicide/stats.htm)

Deaths from Homicide: 16,889 annual deaths in 1999 (NVSR Sep 2001)
Death rate extrapolations for USA for Homicide: 16,889 per year, 1,407 per month, 324 per week, 46 per day, 1 per hour, 0 per minute, 0 per second.

THX1139
Apr 18, 2007, 03:51 AM
AOL links to two plays he wrote about a year ago, as a college Junior.

http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/

Most people have commented on the violence in them, but as a creative writing major, I've read things far more violent and disturbing. They really don't stand out in that regard for me. What I find frightening is the level of his work; early high-school or late middle school at best.

You pretty much missed the point didn't you? You must have been so fixated on his poor writing style that you couldn't see his anger within the writings. True, there are probably far more violent writings done by "normal" people, but when I read his plays, I couldn't help but feel a bit creeped out as he channeled his inner hatred through the characters. Maybe I'm reading in hindsight, but I probably would have felt some kind of weirdness even if I read those before he went on his rampage. Read any writings from known famous killers and they all have the same tone as what I read in those plays. Reading them for "style" is a waste of time when you should be looking at the tone. No wonder his professor felt alarmed after reading them! Check out the writings of the Columbine shooters, Berkowitz, Manson, Kazinski, or any famous killer and you'll know what I'm talking about. Often they channel their anger through fictional characters or rant against society until it builds to where they can manifest (their anger) through action. A ticking bomb waiting for the exact trigger to set it off.

cr2sh
Apr 18, 2007, 04:21 AM
You must have been so fixated on his poor writing style that you couldn't see his anger within the writings.

The anger behind the writing is obvious.. I'm not sure how anyone could have missed that. The scariest part about it was how vacant and shallow his characters were. There was no development to them, no substance, just flimsy names hiding the rage. It was written badly, but it seems it may have written badly because he was so filled with violence that he couldn't hide his desire to kill.

His characters wanted to kill so badly that they would just blurt out obscenities and death threats.. and he'd try to put them in some context but it was just absolutely bizarre... he enjoyed writing these stories and depicting the urge to kill. He had these violent fantasies in his head, the stories were constructed around them to try to hide his desire.

obeygiant
Apr 18, 2007, 10:59 AM
Some background on Cho's family in South Korea from the Detroit News. (http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070418/NATION/704180461)

The family lived in a rented, basement apartment -- usually the cheapest unit in a multi-apartment building, the newspaper reported quoting building owner Lim Bong-ae, 67. Police identified the shooter's father as Cho Seong-tae, 61.
"I didn't know what (Cho's father) did for a living. But they lived a poor life," Lim told the newspaper. "While emigrating, (Cho's father) said they were going to America because it is difficult to live here and that it's better to live in a place where he is unknown."
The small apartment where the family lived is now vacant and its front door was left unlocked Wednesday. Mildew stains mark the pale blue walls of the three-room residence, which is no larger than 430 square feet.
At the Shinchang Elementary School that Cho attended for first grade and half of second grade, there were no records of the former student besides that he left school Aug. 19, 1992, officials said. Cho's former homeroom teacher was no longer working at the school and other teachers did not remember Cho.
Meanwhile, South Korean President Roh Moo-hyun held a special meeting with aides Wednesday to discuss the shooting, as the public expressed shame over a South Korean citizen being identified as the gunman.
"I and our people cannot contain our feelings of huge shock and grief," said Roh during a news conference. "I pray for the souls of those killed and offer words of comfort from my heart for those injured, the bereaved families and the U.S. people."

Daveway
Apr 18, 2007, 04:25 PM
NBC News received a package from Cho that was mailed between the shootings.
They have made copies of everything and will be airing them during their 6:30pm time slot.

This story keeps swelling.

mcarnes
Apr 18, 2007, 07:20 PM
NBC News received a package from Cho that was mailed between the shootings.
They have made copies of everything and will be airing them during their 6:30pm time slot.

This story keeps swelling.

Heck, since no once else has posted it, here it is. (http://video.msn.com/v/us/fv/msnbc/fv.htm??f=00&g=925bc281-ce20-439e-9682-8cc58066b2bf&p=hotvideo_m_vatech&t=c3556&rf=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169776/&fg=)

The guy was a true loser.

obeygiant
Apr 18, 2007, 07:27 PM
Youtube is flooded. They've probably melted a server by know. That video he shot of himself is unreal.

BiikeMike
Apr 18, 2007, 11:02 PM
Heck, since no once else has posted it, here it is. (http://video.msn.com/v/us/fv/msnbc/fv.htm??f=00&g=925bc281-ce20-439e-9682-8cc58066b2bf&p=hotvideo_m_vatech&t=c3556&rf=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169776/&fg=)

The guy was a true loser.

holy ****!


On another note:

http://www.hambergerproductions.com/photos/Hokie%20HOpe.jpeg

(PS, hotlink the image all you want, I'm hosting it on my server)

the vj
Apr 18, 2007, 11:21 PM
Well, I am not suprise of the guy after watching the video. I even went over that before but teh moderators decided to delet my post (talking about freedom of spech) or do I have to get a gun to make a point as well? because is easyer to do that today in the US than getting respect when you speak.

Did I make a point.

I am suprise no one did something regarding that guy, people led him on his own world. If you ask me I do not blame him even we all are responsable for our mental health but we are a comunity and we are responsible for each other.

I blame the people around him, I blame the people who turn his back on him, because you do not get to that state from one day to the other.

Again... remember the corpose of the old man who spent a year on his chair watching TV and no one did anything.

Everybody felt sad for him but as you can see, many people are living the same isolation alive.

Who have you been rejecting is what you should be thinking about?

mcarnes
Apr 18, 2007, 11:37 PM
Well, I am not suprise of the guy after watching the video. I even went over that before but teh moderators decided to delet my post (talking about freedom of spech) or do I have to get a gun to make a point as well? because is easyer to do that today in the US than getting respect when you speak.

Did I make a point.

I am suprise no one did something regarding that guy, people led him on his own world. If you ask me I do not blame him even we all are responsable for our mental health but we are a comunity and we are responsible for each other.

I blame the people around him, I blame the people who turn his back on him, because you do not get to that state from one day to the other.

Again... remember the corpose of the old man who spent a year on his chair watching TV and no one did anything.

Everybody felt sad for him but as you can see, many people are living the same isolation alive.

Who have you been rejecting is what you should be thinking about?

:p

I like you vj. You my friend. :)

BiikeMike
Apr 18, 2007, 11:40 PM
Well, I am not suprise of the guy after watching the video. I even went over that before but teh moderators decided to delet my post (talking about freedom of spech) or do I have to get a gun to make a point as well? because is easyer to do that today in the US than getting respect when you speak.

Did I make a point.

I am suprise no one did something regarding that guy, people led him on his own world. If you ask me I do not blame him even we all are responsable for our mental health but we are a comunity and we are responsible for each other.

I blame the people around him, I blame the people who turn his back on him, because you do not get to that state from one day to the other.

Again... remember the corpose of the old man who spent a year on his chair watching TV and no one did anything.

Everybody felt sad for him but as you can see, many people are living the same isolation alive.

Who have you been rejecting is what you should be thinking about?

I REALLY hope you are joking. If not, you need some serious help.

You cannot place blame on people around someone for that person's actions, everyone is responsible for their own actions. If you don't believe that, you may be the dumbest person on the planet.

cr2sh
Apr 18, 2007, 11:47 PM
Well, I am not suprise of the guy after watching the video. I even went over that before but teh moderators decided to delet my post (talking about freedom of spech) or do I have to get a gun to make a point as well? because is easyer to do that today in the US than getting respect when you speak.

Did I make a point.

I am suprise no one did something regarding that guy, people led him on his own world. If you ask me I do not blame him even we all are responsable for our mental health but we are a comunity and we are responsible for each other.

I blame the people around him, I blame the people who turn his back on him, because you do not get to that state from one day to the other.


First, this isn't your website. If what you post offends or disgusts the owners or admins, they can edit your comments. There is no freedom of speech here, this website is private property.

Second, no one who uses a gun to "Get respect" is going to be respected. If you'd consider using violence because it's "easier" maybe you should seek some help. Violence is not the answer to getting your point across.

Lastly, if it's our responsibility to look out for each other and watch out for others.. I'd like to publicly state that you're thoughts are of concern to me. You sympathize with this murderer in a scary way, you seem to identify and agree with his actions and purpose.. and you shouldn't. This person was confused and REALLY needed help. From the sound of your post, you might also.

Feel free to PM if you want to discuss this further.

MACDRIVE
Apr 19, 2007, 04:14 AM
So does anyone know what Cho was so mad about?

Who was he referring to in the video?

redfirebird08
Apr 19, 2007, 04:35 AM
So does anyone know what Cho was so mad about?

Who was he referring to in the video?

He left a note in his dorm room that was angry towards "rich kids," "debauchery," and "deceitful charlatans." His video "speech" is mostly rambling, but he does seem to indicate a lot of bitterness at so-called "normal" kids with real social lives (what he calls debauchery). The video indicates that he feels as if he's a martyr for outcasts everywhere. In fact, they did not show it on the news, but there are reports that he praised Harris and Klebold from Columbine for their rampage. They were his heroes essentially. He simply isolated himself into a psychotic shell and it exploded after all these years. :(

THX1139
Apr 19, 2007, 04:48 AM
So does anyone know what Cho was so mad about?

Who was he referring to in the video?

Due to the level of his insanity (who in their right mind would do such a thing), it is highly likely that most of the ramblings make no sense outside of his tortured mind. He suffered from delusions, psychosis, and paranoia at a level that he created enemies inside of his head. In other words, he was mad at me and you and pretty much all of society. The important questions we need to be asking is not who... but why and how can we keep this from happening again. What was the "trigger" that made him finally snap? David Berkowitz (Son of Sam) went out and killed a bunch of people at random. Why? The neighbors barking dog told him to do it.

jamesmcd
Apr 19, 2007, 05:01 AM
... I don't trust a post with so many spelling errors.

specialy wons tht lok lik thr ritten by elven yr olds wo ply WOW all dy. :apple:

Edit: I was talking about a post way back in the thread (I thought it was the last one because the forum went straight to it).

THX1139
Apr 19, 2007, 05:14 AM
Well, I am not suprise of the guy after watching the video. I even went over that before but teh moderators decided to delet my post (talking about freedom of spech) or do I have to get a gun to make a point as well? because is easyer to do that today in the US than getting respect when you speak.

Did I make a point.

I am suprise no one did something regarding that guy, people led him on his own world. If you ask me I do not blame him even we all are responsable for our mental health but we are a comunity and we are responsible for each other.

I blame the people around him, I blame the people who turn his back on him, because you do not get to that state from one day to the other.

Again... remember the corpose of the old man who spent a year on his chair watching TV and no one did anything.

Everybody felt sad for him but as you can see, many people are living the same isolation alive.

Who have you been rejecting is what you should be thinking about?

Well, what I'm thinking about is "rejecting you" for what you wrote. Seriously, we all go through some kind of rejection and neglect of one form or another as we go through life, but that in no way gives us the excuse to kill someone. Especially a room full of innocent people! It is our obligations as intelligent beings to rise above criticism and ridicule. As for parents and teachers, it is their responsiblity to teach kids that things can and do get better. The best revenge is to prove people (who judge you) wrong by becoming a better person. Bill Gates was a nerd in college and I'm sure he got a lot of teasing. I wonder how many people regret being an ass towards him now that he's the richest man on the planet and is making a global difference by creating a foundation that is working to fight disease? Of course though, Bill wasn't crazy. The only "excuse" Cho had would be that he was indeed crazy and had somehow lost control of his mental processes. For that, maybe as a society we need to share the blame. We are too fixated on bling-bling, American Idol and the death of Anna Nicole Smith, instead of how our fellow man is doing. I don't have the answers, but I do know for sure that killing people to justify being treated badly is NOT right.

AVID
Apr 19, 2007, 06:11 AM
Well, what I'm thinking about is "rejecting you" for what you wrote. Seriously, we all go through some kind of rejection and neglect of one form or another as we go through life, but that in no way gives us the excuse to kill someone. Especially a room full of innocent people! It is our obligations as intelligent beings to rise above criticism and ridicule. As for parents and teachers, it is their responsiblity to teach kids that things can and do get better. The best revenge is to prove people (who judge you) wrong by becoming a better person. Bill Gates was a nerd in college and I'm sure he got a lot of teasing. I wonder how many people regret being an ass towards him now that he's the richest man on the planet and is making a global difference by creating a foundation that is working to fight disease? Of course though, Bill wasn't crazy. The only "excuse" Cho had would be that he was indeed crazy and had somehow lost control of his mental processes. For that, maybe as a society we need to share the blame. We are too fixated on bling-bling, American Idol and the death of Anna Nicole Smith, instead of how our fellow man is doing. I don't have the answers, but I do know for sure that killing people to justify being treated badly is NOT right.

I agree, and would like to extend on that point... that is, granted that it's obviously wrong to kill people (i hope that's obvious to us all here), i do hope that we don't start shifting ALL the blame and judgements towards one person, (or to particular kinds of people) which is the easy and simplistic (dumb) way of thinking. It seems though that this is the path that most people and the media takes. I think we can isolate the crime and the circumstance we face, and that is: there are people out there who are rediculed and outcasted simply because they are different, it doesnt make them wrong, after all, society is a social construct. The main issue is that we immediately start judging each other when it goes against the stream of "public" attitude, (like in this case, no comments regarding cho's well being and self reflections as a society are tolerated by the "public"). This happened at 911, happened with iraq, and it happens as well on issues of smaller scales and consequences. We just have to accept that things are not that simple, so dont rule people out too quickly.

(They should really have spell check on this) :p

cr2sh
Apr 19, 2007, 10:42 AM
So does anyone know what Cho was so mad about?

Cho was a withdrawn senior, he'd been in college for at least 4 years but had made no friends and apparently frightened many people. You can only guess at things like this.. but I've got a hunch that the fact that he'd be graduating soon, that his withdrawn, quiet (and in his mind victimized) self was going to have to go out in the real world and face reality pretty soon. I may turn out to be wrong, but the fact that his inner, closed world of delusion was going to come to an end soon with graduation might have been the breaking point.

The question I'd like to know is why did he choose Norris Hall? He was an english major, that was an engineering building... why did he go there and not somewhere else?

kitki83
Apr 19, 2007, 11:41 AM
I am upset that NBC decided to air the tapings and give the man what he wanted . I think it was a bad decision, and out of respect for the Virginians. Also the fear of copy cats since we are having reports in Cali of it happening now.

TequilaBoobs
Apr 19, 2007, 11:47 AM
some of you should consider the possibility that cho was a person with schizophrenia. he had delusions of grandeur, paranoia, persecutory voices, and as many of you have written, had disorganized thinking (i.e., evidenced by his writing).

the fact that mental health people were unable to pursue further testing on cho when he had so many red flags is a wake-up call to reconsider our legislative process and mental health systems.

to think cho was so tortured for so long, without outside intervention (cuz let's face it, he would never commit himself because of his paranoia), really makes me sad. im not apologizing for cho, but i think we should be more understanding of the killer instead of distancing ourselves from him. we can learn from this experience, and save future lives, if we can recognize mental illness sooner.

TequilaBoobs
Apr 19, 2007, 12:02 PM
Cho was a withdrawn senior, he'd been in college for at least 4 years but had made no friends and apparently frightened many people. You can only guess at things like this.. but I've got a hunch that the fact that he'd be graduating soon, that his withdrawn, quiet (and in his mind victimized) self was going to have to go out in the real world and face reality pretty soon. I may turn out to be wrong, but the fact that his inner, closed world of delusion was going to come to an end soon with graduation might have been the breaking point.

The question I'd like to know is why did he choose Norris Hall? He was an english major, that was an engineering building... why did he go there and not somewhere else?

officials speculate that he choose that building because the doors were wooden without peepholes, and they were unlockable.

also, some of the murdered victims were english majors, and i would suspect that norris hall shares some rooms with the english department. but thats a guess.

cr2sh
Apr 19, 2007, 12:13 PM
I am upset that NBC decided to air the tapings...

I think it's funny how all of the stations were showing it last night but today they're taking the high road. I sat here late last night and watched fox news, larry king/cnn, and bunch of other stations showing it... but today they're frowning on nbc for airing it.

:rolleyes:

THX1139
Apr 19, 2007, 12:54 PM
I think it's funny how all of the stations were showing it last night but today they're taking the high road. I sat here late last night and watched fox news, larry king/cnn, and bunch of other stations showing it... but today they're frowning on nbc for airing it.

:rolleyes:

I actually sent an email to cnn chastizing them for giving so much focus on Cho. On their home page, there was an image of Cho pointing his gun directly at the camera. By publishing such images they are becoming accomplices in his aberrant behaviours and are guilty of terrorizing their audiences. Cho knew the news outlets would have a field day with the gift he sent them. He knew it would allow him to live on in infamy and give him a platform for his paranoid agenda. Shame on them and all news outlets that are capitalizing on this tragedy! Sure, the public has a right to know... and I'm against censorship, but I'm also against how they are going about it.

Today was much better. Cho was relagated to a smaller portion of the website (but still accessabe which is okay by me), and they were honoring all of the victims with a special feature that showcased the individuals. Very nicely done!!

obeygiant
Apr 19, 2007, 02:28 PM
Copycat crimes are popping up all over the country.

1 (http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2007/04/cho_seung_hui_s.html)
2 (http://www.examiner.com/a-681946~Virginia_Tech__copycat__threat_shutters_SF_law_school.html)
3 (http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=d620c910-ca57-44e7-b98a-5e17c7216e42)
4 (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070419/NEWS05/70419019/1055/SPORTS)

princealfie
Apr 19, 2007, 02:50 PM
some of you should consider the possibility that cho was a person with schizophrenia. he had delusions of grandeur, paranoia, persecutory voices, and as many of you have written, had disorganized thinking (i.e., evidenced by his writing).

the fact that mental health people were unable to pursue further testing on cho when he had so many red flags is a wake-up call to reconsider our legislative process and mental health systems.

to think cho was so tortured for so long, without outside intervention (cuz let's face it, he would never commit himself because of his paranoia), really makes me sad. im not apologizing for cho, but i think we should be more understanding of the killer instead of distancing ourselves from him. we can learn from this experience, and save future lives, if we can recognize mental illness sooner.

But the question is how to we define a person as insane or mentally unstable?

After all there are many "insane" people who were great artists, writers, and painters.

TequilaBoobs
Apr 19, 2007, 04:02 PM
But the question is how to we define a person as insane or mentally unstable?

After all there are many "insane" people who were great artists, writers, and painters.

well, in the US, to be involuntarily committed a person has to be a(n imminent) danger to him/herself or others, resulting from mental illness. some types of schizophrenia, personality disorders and psychoses are all prime examples of 'violent' types of people w/mental illness.

there are tons of other mentally ill people that aren't a danger to society or themself. salvadore dali, jackson pollack, basquiat, etc. all had severe mental illnesses and they channeled that energy into their art. possibly if they had been treated w/the meds of today they would not have florished in their respective fields.

nateDEEZY
Apr 19, 2007, 04:40 PM
well, in the US, to be involuntarily committed a person has to be a(n imminent) danger to him/herself or others, resulting from mental illness. some types of schizophrenia, personality disorders and psychoses are all prime examples of 'violent' types of people w/mental illness.

there are tons of other mentally ill people that aren't a danger to society or themself. salvadore dali, jackson pollack, basquiat, etc. all had severe mental illnesses and they channeled that energy into their art. possibly if they had been treated w/the meds of today they would not have florished in their respective fields.

They also mentioned on msnbc in one of their live interviews he also had an imaginary girlfriend... so schizophrenia isn't so far fetched in his case.

mcarnes
Apr 19, 2007, 05:11 PM
They also mentioned on msnbc in one of their live interviews he also had an imaginary girlfriend... so schizophrenia isn't so far fetched in his case.

All guys have imaginary girlfriends.

Cybergypsy
Apr 19, 2007, 05:34 PM
All guys have imaginary girlfriends.Yep they do, it there right hand

nateDEEZY
Apr 19, 2007, 08:17 PM
Yep they do, it there right hand

LOL some guys have two =S

MacCheetah3
Apr 19, 2007, 09:57 PM
Hi
I am upset that NBC decided to air the tapings and give the man what he wanted . I think it was a bad decision, and out of respect for the Virginians. Also the fear of copy cats since we are having reports in Cali of it happening now.
I fail to see how this would have made a difference for disrespect from copycats. Even if the news didn't release the killers name, it wouldn't make a difference. Pranksters are there without these types of events. It wouldn't even matter how many were killed. It's not the glory of Cho that's pushing them to do these pranks. It's their classmates and friends. You become the cool kid if you can stop school, which is what most students want. It's just like skipping class. It's not who has done it before you, it's the action. These kids know that if they make any sort of threat, it will be taken at the most serious degree.

I also don't see this as disrespectful to the victims or their families / friends. I was appreciative for understanding more of what happened and why.

Based on the evidence, the fact of the matter is that it was all out of jealousy. That's it. Pathetic really as most aren't "rich kids." Sure, schools and whatnot always have their 'jocks' and whatnot bragging about this or that but it's not something to get bent out of shape about.

What I've read -- it sounds plausible -- is that the first two victims were something of true intention. Apparently the young woman killed was one of which Cho was obsessed with but was rejected by and the young man was her roommate trying to intervene. At that point, I'm sure Cho thought it was best to continue what he thought would relieve his anger towards others of the things classmates may have teased him of. I know how it feels to be teased, I do but by no means did I ever feel it reasonable to kill others over it. Myself perhaps. However, none of those would solve the problem anyway. Though, some don't realize that.

Call it what you will but the medical standpoint is that Cho melted into this 'me against the world' attitude that some younger adults do and they simply can't handle it and begin thinking completely irrationally. Of course, this usually leads simply suicide but sometimes it also leads to [mass] murder before the suicide.

In closing, airing such materials is one of the last things people should be getting their "panties in a knot" about. What should be done however, in terms of news, is to make it blatantly known to viewers, readers, and listeners that this sort of behavior is more than completely wrong and pointless.

mcarnes
Apr 19, 2007, 11:03 PM
I think kitki just means that some will identify with Cho's purpose and mission as he talks about it in the tapes. Maybe hard for you to believe, but certainly some will glorify Cho more now and see him as a role model.

mustard
Apr 20, 2007, 12:35 AM
With everyone questioning "what we can do to prevent an event like this in the future", the only way is to have society fully understand the culprit and his/her motives not shelter them from the facts.

The reasons for showing the footage is necessary and hardly inappropriate (other than the timing and potential insensitivity to the friends and family of the injured and deceased)

Even thought this is fresh and hurts for some - keep in mine that this may be healing for some, as well as may just cause people to further investigate the actions/intentions of people around them after seeing these graphic depictions to potentially save future lives.

I am glad that NBC didn't censor the news it isn't there place (and is at the discretion of the audience on when enough is enough - AKA tune out) - sometimes the news is just plain hard to hear but we shouldn't turn a blind eye.

P.S. -
I am ashamed that they used it as a PR blitz by plastering the NBC Peacock on every still and video released to all the other news networks.

THX1139
Apr 20, 2007, 02:56 AM
With everyone questioning "what we can do to prevent an event like this in the future", the only way is to have society fully understand the culprit and his/her motives not shelter them from the facts.

The reasons for showing the footage is necessary and hardly inappropriate (other than the timing and potential insensitivity to the friends and family of the injured and deceased)

Even thought this is fresh and hurts for some - keep in mine that this may be healing for some, as well as may just cause people to further investigate the actions/intentions of people around them after seeing these graphic depictions to potentially save future lives.

I am glad that NBC didn't censor the news it isn't there place (and is at the discretion of the audience on when enough is enough - AKA tune out) - sometimes the news is just plain hard to hear but we shouldn't turn a blind eye.

P.S. -
I am ashamed that they used it as a PR blitz by plastering the NBC Peacock on every still and video released to all the other news networks.

There is a huge difference between reporting the news and showcasing it for profit. Which do you think was being done? Tell me again, how does that help people? Sure, we need to learn from mistakes, but showing repeated coverage of an insane killer on television, or his mug plastered on all the front pages of magazines and newspapers is beyond comprehension. There is such a thing as too much! Frankly, I don't see how playing into Cho's after-death wishes to get his twisted message out to the masses helps people, or how the media being an accomplice to his delusions is going to save lives. I understand what you might be trying to say... but what you wrote is utter B.S. It serves nothing other than to incite more fear and revulsion, and perhaps to inspire other crazy people to come out of the closet.

obeygiant
Apr 20, 2007, 09:51 AM
I love how the media has now started to cover how they covered the vtech shootings. Its so self-reflexive. Whatever damage its caused, oh well, its already done. Now theyre switching to coverage of the victims which is what they should have done in the first place.

TequilaBoobs
Apr 20, 2007, 11:26 AM
i can only speak for myself but i would rather know more about the killer than censor his 'manifesto'.

as with any major event (i.e. famous suicide, murder, bomb threats), there will be similarly-minded persons who will copycat the event. humans are inherently social animals, and that includes the sociopaths, murderers, etc.

im sure foreign adoptions went up after angelina jolie's first kid. same thing - for better or worse.

Killyp
Apr 20, 2007, 11:53 AM
They really shouldn't talk about the killer so much, but more about ways in which it could have been prevented.

If they keep talking about the killer, people will get it into their heads that if they kill somebody they can be famous...

princealfie
Apr 20, 2007, 12:06 PM
I think kitki just means that some will identify with Cho's purpose and mission as he talks about it in the tapes. Maybe hard for you to believe, but certainly some will glorify Cho more now and see him as a role model.

I think that this would make a rather interesting novel by far.

princealfie
Apr 20, 2007, 12:07 PM
They really shouldn't talk about the killer so much, but more about ways in which it could have been prevented.

If they keep talking about the killer, people will get it into their heads that if they kill somebody they can be famous...

But how do you know that he did it for fame?

THX1139
Apr 20, 2007, 03:53 PM
But how do you know that he did it for fame?

Geez, that's a no-brainer! Uh, why do you think he sent his package to NBC news? He rightly assumed that what he was about to do would make for a great news story... with him right in the center of it all. His ulterior motive might have been to teach people a lesson by killing them, but what was really on his mind was a narcissistic desire to be noticed. He had been a closed off introvert all of his life; he had trouble being a part of mainstream and felt discarded and ignored. Too bad the media played into his hands and now all of his wishes have come true. The same thing can't be said for his victims.

I imagine that copy-cat crime would be less if the media referred to the person as "the killer" and didn't delve too much into turning him into an instant celebrity (as bad as that sounds). Just provide the facts about what happened, then focus on the victims. If you are only known as "the man who killed so and so," it's not quite as glamorous.

MacCheetah3
Apr 20, 2007, 10:42 PM
Hi
I think kitki just means that some will identify with Cho's purpose and mission as he talks about it in the tapes. Maybe hard for you to believe, but certainly some will glorify Cho more now and see him as a role model.
From personal experience and many can say the same as being a teen offers a lot of heartache for a fair number. Anywho... Those who would have at least partial understanding of where Cho felt he was coming from have already thought of doing such ( murdering / suicide ) but have decided against it, hopefully because it is pointless as it fixes the problems they are having by none.

Geez, that's a no-brainer! Uh, why do you think he sent his package to NBC news? He rightly assumed that what he was about to do would make for a great news story... with him right in the center of it all. His ulterior motive might have been to teach people a lesson by killing them, but what was really on his mind was a narcissistic desire to be noticed. He had been a closed off introvert all of his life; he had trouble being a part of mainstream and felt discarded and ignored. Too bad the media played into his hands and now all of his wishes have come true. The same thing can't be said for his victims.

I imagine that copy-cat crime would be less if the media referred to the person as "the killer" and didn't delve too much into turning him into an instant celebrity (as bad as that sounds). Just provide the facts about what happened, then focus on the victims. If you are only known as "the man who killed so and so," it's not quite as glamorous.
I feel it is more likely he sent the package to a large television network because he wanted his intentions / pains to be blatantly known. It is fame but not the fame for the amount he killed. Fame was the passenger on his psychotropic ride. Those feeling as Cho was want the bullies to hopefully back-off and want to make it seem that not only is he helping himself but wants people to think that he was trying to help others and to not look upon his actions so severely negative.

Of course, this is illogical but in such a state of mind, logic seems to take a backseat.

Simply, such actions are from those who are weak and become unstable. It's hard for me to explain it in a fully understandable manner. I'm sometimes just not good at explaining my thoughts -- Stinks for me. ...It's not being able to face your problems correctly and you pursue what you feel as the best / quickest way to rid yourself of such.

THX1139
Apr 21, 2007, 01:37 AM
... Those feeling as Cho was want the bullies to hopefully back-off and want to make it seem that not only is he helping himself but wants people to think that he was trying to help others and to not look upon his actions so severely negative.

Of course, this is illogical but in such a state of mind, logic seems to take a backseat.


Are you serious? Let's not forget he was crazy. I highly doubt he cared whether people would think his actions were too severe. If anything, he thought the opposite, or not at all. Are you trying to find a way to excuse his behavior because he was trying to help people who go through what he went through by setting an example?? :eek:

arn
Apr 21, 2007, 02:24 AM
Geez, that's a no-brainer! Uh, why do you think he sent his package to NBC news? He rightly assumed that what he was about to do would make for a great news story... with him right in the center of it all. His ulterior motive might have been to teach people a lesson by killing them, but what was really on his mind was a narcissistic desire to be noticed.

I think you are giving him too much credit. It seems clear he had psychiatric problems, and likely he had paranoid schizophrenia.

You can't use logic to decipher his motives or actions. In his mind, he certainly felt what he was doing was justified, but we can't know what hallucinations/delusions he was having at the time.

His "manifesto" was simply the ramblings of someone who was clinically insane.

arn

tominated
Apr 21, 2007, 03:06 AM
i hate to be so immature, but...

Ma Ma Ma MONSTER KILL! Kill kill

mustard
Apr 21, 2007, 03:36 AM
i hate to be so immature, but...

Ma Ma Ma MONSTER KILL! Kill kill

Just edit your post and blank it out, most will not get it but some will see it as immature and not relevant.