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View Full Version : Blizzard To Try To Kill Twinks? Or at Least Try?




bobber205
May 3, 2007, 08:23 AM
Finally.


On Friday, May 4, weíre going to be enabling the battleground matchmaking system on the public test realms (PTRs). The matchmaking system will help match teams against each other based on their gear and level of organization. To usher in this new feature and help aid in testing, weíre going to be sending in World of Warcraft community managers and other Blizzard employees to take on any teams willing to challenge us. Come onto the PvP test realm on Friday, May 4, beginning at 2:00 PM PDT, with your level-70 characters and queue for the Warsong Gulch battleground.

To begin downloading the PTR client and copying your characters, click here. To learn more about the upcoming patch, please view the PTR patch notes.

Once youíve tried out the new content on the PTR, please be sure to post any feedback, bugs, or issues concerning the Black Temple patch and the matchmaking system in particular in the Test Realm forum.

This makes me really happy. :D

What about you?

Will this get rid of the level range matchups?



whooleytoo
May 3, 2007, 08:54 AM
I've never played any MMORPG, never mind WoW, so feel free to ignore...

..but from what I've read about twinking, I kind of like the idea because it mirrors the real world. Twinks are a bit like the rich kids/children of the teacher or boss who everyone resents because they feel they didn't have to work for what they have.

It adds a bit of real-world social dynamics to the virtual world. ;)

bobber205
May 3, 2007, 09:00 AM
MMO's should be about having fun. Not about representing the sucky parts of real life. ;)

PlaceofDis
May 3, 2007, 09:00 AM
hopefully this will work wonderfully. wonder if they'll have to expand the 'battlegroups' though so queues will be nice and speedy still.

miller218
May 3, 2007, 09:10 AM
As I understand it, enchants can be placed on an level of item, unlike, for example, Armor kits. This is just plain wrong! It's sick to hear alvl 19 priest bragging about their +55 healing enchant on their staff.

How can BGs even be close to being fair with a loophole like this? Not all of us have guilds with a dozen lvl 70's or a sugar daddy main that tweaks their PvP twinks.

PlaceofDis
May 3, 2007, 09:11 AM
As I understand it, enchants can be placed on an level of item, unlike, for example, Armor kits. This is just plain wrong! It's sick to hear alvl 19 priest bragging about their +55 healing enchant on their staff.

How can BGs even be close to being fair with a loophole like this? Not all of us have guilds with a dozen lvl 70's or a sugar daddy main that tweaks their PvP twinks.

which is why this is being implemented. ;)

miller218
May 3, 2007, 09:21 AM
which is why this is being implemented. ;)

Well, the matchmaking service might make PvP more even, but it doesn't address the root problem of Enchants.

PlaceofDis
May 3, 2007, 09:24 AM
Well, the matchmaking service might make PvP more even, but it doesn't address the root problem of Enchants.

well the matchmaking system is gear based, so i'm hoping/guessing that it takes into account Enchants on one's gear.

Kernow
May 3, 2007, 09:34 AM
Hmmm - the blurb above only mentions level 70 characters. There's no indication that this is going to be extended to all the other level ranges. I would guess that, at first, this will be restricted to level 70 as the primary differentiating factor at this level is gear. For the other brackets you would have the further complication of level differences too, and I would guess it would become overly complicated.

In addition to enchants, they would also have to take account of gear in your bag, rather than just what you are wearing - I can see a situation where twinks would wear a crappy set to enter the BG and then swap to their high end stuff. Perhaps prevent you from re-equipping inside the battleground, but this would stop some legitimate tactics too.

PlaceofDis
May 3, 2007, 09:39 AM
Hmmm - the blurb above only mentions level 70 characters. There's no indication that this is going to be extended to all the other level ranges. I would guess that, at first, this will be restricted to level 70 as the primary differentiating factor at this level is gear. For the other brackets you would have the further complication of level differences too, and I would guess it would become overly complicated.

In addition to enchants, they would also have to take account of gear in your bag, rather than just what you are wearing - I can see a situation where twinks would wear a crappy set to enter the BG and then swap to their high end stuff. Perhaps prevent you from re-equipping inside the battleground, but this would stop some legitimate tactics too.

i think it only mentions lvl 70s for going up against the blizz staff. which is understandable :p

and yeah i think it takes into account the gear in your bag as well. this is needed more at the lower level BGs imo, than the higher ones. just my opinion though.

and i don't know how many of their 'intentions' have made it into this implementation, but i'm happy they're at least this far along with it.

Allotriophagy
May 3, 2007, 09:49 AM
Twinks rock!

http://armory.wow-europe.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Stormscale&n=Biopsy

http://armory.wow-europe.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Stormscale&n=Penetration

With food/drink buffs I have close to 1600 hp, running around one-shotting all the gimmers who didn't take the time to properly plan and kit out their characters.

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

dubbz
May 3, 2007, 10:06 AM
With food/drink buffs I have close to 1600 hp, running around one-shotting all the gimmers who didn't take the time to properly plan and kit out their characters.

You know.. some people just want to do some BGs for fun while they are leveling up. That they don't spend loads of gold on gear and enchants doesn't make them idiots.

PlaceofDis
May 3, 2007, 10:07 AM
You know.. some people just want to do some BGs for fun while they are leveling up. That they don't spend loads of gold on gear and enchants doesn't make them idiots.

indeed. i love BattleGrounds. they break up the monotany of leveling.

miniConvert
May 3, 2007, 10:07 AM
I'm glad they're working to make battlegrounds a fair fight. I think this new system will be an exciting addition that'll make battles fun at all levels, not just x9!

combatcolin
May 3, 2007, 11:28 AM
Anyone can twink, its not an exclusive club.

Once you have a high level char, you can give away items that you find/make/loot to your lower level characters.

Very, very easy and straightforward to do.

The only people who are at a disadvantage are those people playing the game new, but, as a counterbalance to this; with my main character, (Combatcolin Dreanor Euro) the WOW world was something almost quite magical the 1st time round.

Sauron's Master
May 3, 2007, 05:36 PM
I have no idea why they're trying to reward mediocrity. It's like the bs they try to pull in real life with this "self-esteem" and egalitarian ideology. If you are unable or unwilling to perform, you should not be rewarded. I mean, in WoW, everyone has equality of opportunity and it's not that hard to do arena or Kara for pretty decent epics so I don't get why we should be rewarding the noobs for being noob by pairing them up with other noobs. If people worked for their gear, they should be able to exploit the maximum amount of utility from it and farm the idiot PuGs for free honor.

PlaceofDis
May 3, 2007, 05:37 PM
blizz isn't trying to reward mediocrity. they're trying to make the game as accessible to the casual player as possible. this is why WoW is as big of a success as it is, imo.

Sauron's Master
May 3, 2007, 06:09 PM
blizz isn't trying to reward mediocrity. they're trying to make the game as accessible to the casual player as possible. this is why WoW is as big of a success as it is, imo.

They are. They're basically saying "even though we know you didn't in the same effort or have the same skill, we're going to give you the same reward instead of forcing you to do better."

sb58
May 3, 2007, 06:10 PM
I guess it seems like a good idea. i'd love to be able to PVP at all levels instead of just the X8's and X9's.

bobber205
May 3, 2007, 07:37 PM
Why do people support twinks?

It's not "real" characters. They made the character for the pure intention of beating ONLY non-twinks. They don't make twinks to have a super battle against other twinks.

That's why its unfair.

dan-o-mac
May 3, 2007, 07:57 PM
Why do people support twinks?

It's not "real" characters. They made the character for the pure intention of beating ONLY non-twinks. They don't make twinks to have a super battle against other twinks.

That's why its unfair.

I don't think people really support twinks, it's just a matter of having to do it to stay competitive. Reminds me of Pro Bodybuilding, they keep stacking drugs cocktails to keep up or surpass one another.

bobber205
May 3, 2007, 08:00 PM
Yeah. Good point. I don't think it's right to stop people from being able to twink, just group those jerks together in the queues.

I would rather have the level grouping done with and have it all stat/gear based.
Then, if you were in a BG with level 30 players when you were 20, you would know you're doing pretty damn well. ;)

AoWolf
May 3, 2007, 09:05 PM
To each his own. If you want to twink in the 10-19 bracket fine. I choose the 70 bracket...

sb58
May 3, 2007, 09:16 PM
To each his own. If you want to twink in the 10-19 bracket fine. I choose the 70 bracket...

i wish i could just level to 70. twinking would be the last thing on my mind XD

AoWolf
May 4, 2007, 12:01 AM
i wish i could just level to 70. twinking would be the last thing on my mind XD

And your using that icon! Tisk tisk :p

combatcolin
May 4, 2007, 02:51 AM
Why do people support twinks?

It's not "real" characters. They made the character for the pure intention of beating ONLY non-twinks. They don't make twinks to have a super battle against other twinks.

That's why its unfair.

Disagree.

My 43 Human Priest and my 41Elf Warrior are there because i want to play them.

And my 70 Dwarf Hunter can craft armour and weapons for my Tank, while my Tank can supply potions for the other 2.

And one day, i will re-enter a BG - but not for a while as i don't really like them.

Which is the beauty of WOW, you don't really have to follow a strict game plan - you can do what you want.

takao
May 4, 2007, 04:15 AM
i find it ridiculous: if people want equal opportunities how about playing counter strike ?

playing a MMO and then complaining about the other having better equipment...

and yeah i have played wow (only up to 32-39 2-3 times with priest/druid)

miller218
May 4, 2007, 09:26 AM
How many days /played would that take? Someone else mentioned running Kara, Holy $#!+! Or do you just buy your toons?

A lot of us casual players have lives/families/mortgages and I assure you there's a lot more of us than there are of twinkers. I think the Rested XP thing was a good start, but then again twinks don't level do they! BGs as they currently exist, are totally wrecked for ppl that want just try it out.

I still hope they put limits on enchants based on the item's level, Just like they do for Armor kits and just about everything else.

Blizz, wouldn't it be easier to address the real problem and not just the symptom?

There, I've said my speech and you know what, If twinking makes you happy, then I guess it's fortunate that Blizz can make a game that appeal to both of us.

Anyone can twink, its not an exclusive club.

Once you have a high level char, you can give away items that you find/make/loot to your lower level characters.

Very, very easy and straightforward to do.

The only people who are at a disadvantage are those people playing the game new, but, as a counterbalance to this; with my main character, (Combatcolin Dreanor Euro) the WOW world was something almost quite magical the 1st time round.

bobber205
May 4, 2007, 09:46 AM
I've found that from switching over from allliance to horde has given me many more successfully pvp kills.

I am only level 22 right now, but for some reason I still am able to top or get in the top 3 of the damage charts (I'm a tauren hunter) and I often have the most kills.

Lol. Are alliance players generally that bad? I still hate twinks. There's no way a level 19 hunter should ever die in one hit from anything from a level 19 player.

That makes no sense and is totally unfair.

Mr B
May 4, 2007, 10:04 AM
Blizzard has already put in a solution for people that want to play pvp and compete, but don't want to have to twink. It's called a warlock.

PlaceofDis
May 4, 2007, 10:33 AM
Blizzard has already put in a solution for people that want to play pvp and compete, but don't want to have to twink. It's called a warlock.

naw, we're not that massively overpowered. we can be easily taken down by some classes.

merc669
May 4, 2007, 10:38 AM
MMO's should be about having fun. Not about representing the sucky parts of real life. ;)
Totally Agree!! I have played a few others where you could use cheats and twinks. Takes away from the whole game and leaves a very bad taste in your mouth. If Blizzard can do away with thesee then I am all for it!!

Bill....:apple:

MyJelleo
May 4, 2007, 01:30 PM
Putting a twink against a non-twink character is like putting an Olympic athlete against a casual athlete who plays for fun, not for gold.

I don't really understand the argument twinks have against this new BG implementation. How is this at all supporting people who aren't trying hard enough? A twink doesn't mean the person has skill in pvp; it means that they have gear.

I really don't care about twinks. They can twink out as much as they want. However, how is this competition when they are fighting against normal characters and one shotting them? The current system is unbalanced and is unfair. I don't want to take the time to correctly lvl a character and get him the perfect gear; a lot of people just want to play casually.

For the ignorant out there, casually means not spending hours farming and trying to find good gear for a lower lvl character. If someone argues with me over this, s/he is obviously puffing on something. WOW was made for casual and hardcore gamers alike. We are both welcome into the game because it was made so that both game play styles are possible. One should not be restricted from BG because he is a casual player.

I've met my fair share of jerk twinkers who told me I didn't belong in BG because of my level and my gear. It got so bad that I quit WoW completely; I just wanted to play for fun, not be constantly griefed because some no-life nerds want to have an easy game.

If you want to be a twinker, then this new system will let you have some competition by fighting other twinkers. Don't complain because casual players will be able to have fun for once. This is a much needed implementation into the game. The people who think this balancing of class and gear is unfair in any way needs to check into a psych ward, or get used to having real competition in the game.

bobber205
May 4, 2007, 02:34 PM
Excellent post my good sir. :cool:

sb58
May 4, 2007, 02:36 PM
And your using that icon! Tisk tisk :p

the level 1-59 priest icon sucks :P

and i think they should just separate the twinks and non twinks. problem, solution. :D

miller218
May 4, 2007, 02:54 PM
From what I've heard it's somewhat server dependent. On some servers, Allies rule.

The main complaint I hear from my guildies is that Horde players work better as a team, Allied played try to be all Uber and go it alone.

I've found that from switching over from allliance to horde has given me many more successfully pvp kills.

I am only level 22 right now, but for some reason I still am able to top or get in the top 3 of the damage charts (I'm a tauren hunter) and I often have the most kills.

Lol. Are alliance players generally that bad? I still hate twinks. There's no way a level 19 hunter should ever die in one hit from anything from a level 19 player.

That makes no sense and is totally unfair.

ethernet76
May 4, 2007, 05:21 PM
blizz isn't trying to reward mediocrity. they're trying to make the game as accessible to the casual player as possible. this is why WoW is as big of a success as it is, imo.

I don't need decent gear to farm people in BG. People at lower levels who aren't twinks just suck at PVP. Gear only goes so far in BGs. Granted crusader enchants on a level 19 will own anyone, but the easiest way to fix this is to give people experience for doing BGs. Twinks could only stick around for so long before they'd level out of the level range.

bobber205
May 4, 2007, 05:33 PM
That's also a valid idea and probably the best solution. However it could easily be abused by the twinks. They would just hold the flag and murder anyone that got near, making the battle take FOREVER. ;)

MyJelleo
May 4, 2007, 05:35 PM
I don't need decent gear to farm people in BG. People at lower levels who aren't twinks just suck at PVP. Gear only goes so far in BGs. Granted crusader enchants on a level 19 will own anyone, but the easiest way to fix this is to give people experience for doing BGs. Twinks could only stick around for so long before they'd level out of the level range.

BG is very gear dependent. A person with a trinket to break stuns and fears will do much better than a person without one. Skill alone is not going to break a stun or fear; only the gear will do that.

As for twinks, when a lvl 19 has the stats of a lvl 25 due to his gear and enchants, it doesn't matter how much skill a person has when he could kill a non-twinked character in one hit. The only way for a non-twink to kill a twink is if the twink is a complete idiot.

I've seen a single twink run into a group of 5. Every member in that group was landing a hit, but the twink was still able to kill all of them. Each member did everything they could; they fired their most damaging spells and hits, froze the guy in place so he would stop running around, stunned him, dazed him, you name it.

I don't know what BGs you're playing; but the BGs I've played have been very gear dependent. If you don't have the right gear, you're going to die fast no matter how much skill you have.

PlaceofDis
May 4, 2007, 05:39 PM
If you don't have the right gear, you're going to die fast no matter how much skill you have.

This is the basis for all the PVP in WoW

ethernet76
May 4, 2007, 05:57 PM
BG is very gear dependent. A person with a trinket to break stuns and fears will do much better with a person without one. Skill alone is not going to break a stun or fear; only the gear will do that.

As for twinks, when a lvl 19 has the stats of a lvl 25 due to his gear and enchants, it doesn't matter how much skill a person has when he could kill a non-twinked character in one hit. The only way for a non-twink to kill a twink is if the twink is a complete idiot.

I've seen a single twink run into a group of 5. Every member in that group was landing a hit, but the twink was still able to kill all of them. Each member did everything they could; they fired their most damaging spells and hits, froze the guy in place so he would stop running around, stunned him, dazed him, you name it.

I don't know what BGs you're playing; but the BGs I've played have been very gear dependent. If you don't have the right gear, you're going to die fast no matter how much skill you have.

It isn't that twinks don't have an advantage. You could take away a twinks gear, enchants, pots, but he'll still have a huge advantage because non-twinks like to attack targets like they mobs. Twinks just know what they're doing, the best spots to hide, how to run a flag. I have over 20k honor kills on a PvE server. My gear doesn't really do much when they're not even getting me below 80% of my health in 1on1.

BTW the fear, stun, polymorph trinket really isn't a twink item.

MyJelleo
May 5, 2007, 03:10 AM
It isn't that twinks don't have an advantage. You could take away a twinks gear, enchants, pots, but he'll still have a huge advantage because non-twinks like to attack targets like they mobs. Twinks just know what they're doing, the best spots to hide, how to run a flag. I have over 20k honor kills on a PvE server. My gear doesn't really do much when they're not even getting me below 80% of my health in 1on1.

BTW the fear, stun, polymorph trinket really isn't a twink item.

I didn't say the trinket was a twink item; I just used it as an example of how equipment plays a vital role in BG. That's why I separated the topic of the trinket into another paragraph apart from the topic of twinks.

Badradio
May 5, 2007, 01:36 PM
Twinks just know what they're doing
Not sure I agree with this. Some guys in my guild created twinks for 10-19BGs for fun: most of them are first-rate PvPers, but some have only one skill - working the Auction Houses - and try to buy their PvP skills. The former type are only interested in winning a fair fight, so are looking forward to the gear-matching system, but the others are going to get hammered once they lose their unfair advantage, as are most of the people complaining about it.

Sauron's Master
May 6, 2007, 03:23 PM
I didn't say the trinket was a twink item; I just used it as an example of how equipment plays a vital role in BG. That's why I separated the topic of the trinket into another paragraph apart from the topic of twinks.

You picked a horrible example because it's an item that's completely available even those who play casually. Are we going to punish actual level 29 chars who know what they're doing and get decent gear for actually having the ability to gear up?

Casuals SHOULD NOT receive the same rewards or fun from the game as people who are hardcore. It's completely against the idea of a meritocracy. The real cost of WoW is not the monthly fee but time spent and thus, if the hardcore people are willing to invest their time and effort, they should get more out of it than people are unwilling to do so. In the same way, people who play the game of life casually should not get the same rewards as the people who actually have the talent and work ethic to get somewhere. That is precisely why communism is such a ridiculous concept.

The real problem at 70 is not that it takes epics to PvP well but it's that people have no idea what they're doing or how to itemize themselves for PvP. Stamina and resilience are the keys to successfully gearing up in PvP, not stacking crit, AP, or spell damage. Take a look at the old FM/GM gear or the gladiator sets and it should be blatantly obvious even to casuals what the PvP stats are. If casuals actually bothered to think about what gear to get instead of complaining about the inequality of WoW, they'd get somewhere in the game.

At 70, guess where most of the resilience and stam gear is? Oh wait, it's in the normal level 70 heroics and from arena/PvP, all of which are much more casual friendly than raiding. Go grind Aldor or LC rep if you don't have an epic weapon. It took me less 10 hours to grind 17k Aldor rep and you CAN split that up into 1hour blocks and be just as effective. Gear is very accessible in TBC so the people who can't get decent gear are either inept or so casual that they don't even play a few hours a week.

The real reason casuals can't do well in PvP isn't even gear. It's a ridiculous inability to understand simple strategic concepts such as defending the flag first and foremost or not running off leaving strategic points completely undefended. Casuals go after the plate-armored dps instead of the classes with cloth or leather first and they don't understand the concept of focus fire nor do they really know how to play their class. Most of it is common sense and they absolutely lack it.

Most of my guild are in grad school, professionals, or are upperclassmen in college. We all have responsibilities and real life obligations but we still manage to clear Kara every week and do well in arena. We're pretty casual. What most people miscontrue is that the people doing poorly in PvP are not the casuals but the people who have an inability to apply real life concepts to the game.

MacRumorUser
May 6, 2007, 04:31 PM
Just a word of warning. Dont google 'Twink' without filtering ;) :)

I thought this thread was about somthing altogether different. :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twink_(gay_slang)

Counterfit
May 6, 2007, 06:10 PM
Just a word of warning. Dont google 'Twink' without filtering ;) :)

I thought this thread was about somthing altogether different. :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twink_(gay_slang)

I've always been weirded out by the in-game use of the word, as I first knew it as the slang.

angelneo
May 6, 2007, 10:39 PM
I've always been weirded out by the in-game use of the word, as I first knew it as the slang.
I am surprised as well. The word gay is also use to describe players/characters who are overpowered or too powerful to engage.

ezekielrage_99
May 7, 2007, 01:43 AM
I only play a few hours a week (stupid life and work getting in the way of WoW time) but this sounds very reasonable for casual gamers, but like all systems it will be exploited.

MyJelleo
May 7, 2007, 12:34 PM
You picked a horrible example because it's an item that's completely available even those who play casually. Are we going to punish actual level 29 chars who know what they're doing and get decent gear for actually having the ability to gear up?

Casuals SHOULD NOT receive the same rewards or fun from the game as people who are hardcore. It's completely against the idea of a meritocracy. The real cost of WoW is not the monthly fee but time spent and thus, if the hardcore people are willing to invest their time and effort, they should get more out of it than people are unwilling to do so. In the same way, people who play the game of life casually should not get the same rewards as the people who actually have the talent and work ethic to get somewhere. That is precisely why communism is such a ridiculous concept.

The real problem at 70 is not that it takes epics to PvP well but it's that people have no idea what they're doing or how to itemize themselves for PvP. Stamina and resilience are the keys to successfully gearing up in PvP, not stacking crit, AP, or spell damage. Take a look at the old FM/GM gear or the gladiator sets and it should be blatantly obvious even to casuals what the PvP stats are. If casuals actually bothered to think about what gear to get instead of complaining about the inequality of WoW, they'd get somewhere in the game.

At 70, guess where most of the resilience and stam gear is? Oh wait, it's in the normal level 70 heroics and from arena/PvP, all of which are much more casual friendly than raiding. Go grind Aldor or LC rep if you don't have an epic weapon. It took me less 10 hours to grind 17k Aldor rep and you CAN split that up into 1hour blocks and be just as effective. Gear is very accessible in TBC so the people who can't get decent gear are either inept or so casual that they don't even play a few hours a week.

The real reason casuals can't do well in PvP isn't even gear. It's a ridiculous inability to understand simple strategic concepts such as defending the flag first and foremost or not running off leaving strategic points completely undefended. Casuals go after the plate-armored dps instead of the classes with cloth or leather first and they don't understand the concept of focus fire nor do they really know how to play their class. Most of it is common sense and they absolutely lack it.

Most of my guild are in grad school, professionals, or are upperclassmen in college. We all have responsibilities and real life obligations but we still manage to clear Kara every week and do well in arena. We're pretty casual. What most people miscontrue is that the people doing poorly in PvP are not the casuals but the people who have an inability to apply real life concepts to the game.

HOW is this a horrible example? I used it to show how vital equipment is in BG, which I clearly stated in my third post in this tread. Please read it clearly next time before judging my statements with the word "horrible," because honestly your judgment of my judgment was horrible. OBVIOUSLY, equipment plays a vital role. The trinket is an example. It's not a twink item; I did not say it was. Should I bold that so people can read it??

WOW was built for both Casual players and hardcore players. Both types of game play are supported by the game. There are rewards for both types. The hardcore players will get better rewards. IF WoW is for both Casual players and Hardcore players, then why shouldn't BG be as well?

It's fine and dandy that twinkers exist. However, it's not fair to casual players who just want to have fun. The game play is unbalanced and there is no competition. With the new implementation in BG, there will no longer be unbalanced games (I'm hoping). I still want things to be a challenge. BUT a casual player cannot beat a twinker that is his level unless, like I stated PREVIOUSLY, the twinker is a complete idiot and doesn't know how to play, or if he's ganged up on. This is not my definition of a challenge for either side.

Casuals SHOULD NOT receive the same rewards or fun from the game as people who are hardcore.

This is the DUMBEST statement. THIS IS A GAME. It should be fun for everyone no matter if they play casually or hardcore. And the idea of fun is very subjective. I don't find farming fun or doing raids 24/7 fun; a hardcore player might. However, the word FAIR is pretty much identically understood by all in the game: having equal opportunity no matter the game play style. BG should be a challenge of skill, not equipment. The new implementation will finally challenge skill of both causal players and hardcore players.

If you really don't have a clue how bad twinking is in the game, try playing in the lvl 10-19 bracket. The bracket where new players get their first taste of BG. It's HORRIBLE. It doesn't matter if you know what you're doing; I've seen single twinks walk through a whole volley of attacks by the entire group and wipe out 80% of the team.

Sauron's Master
May 7, 2007, 11:06 PM
HOW is this a horrible example? I used it to show how vital equipment is in BG, which I clearly stated in my third post in this tread. Please read it clearly next time before judging my statements with the word "horrible," because honestly your judgment of my judgment was horrible. OBVIOUSLY, equipment plays a vital role. The trinket is an example. It's not a twink item; I did not say it was. Should I bold that so people can read it??

Itís a horrible example, as I clearly noted explicitly after my claim, because itís an item available to virtually all casuals and is an item that Blizzard is even making even more accessible post-patch by lowering the honor requirements. Itís also not a twink item at all since it requires level 70 (or 60 if you have the old version.) It works against your argument that casuals are so out of place in BGs. Theyíre not; the item you claim is the single most potent piece of PvP equipment isnít exclusive at all. Itís also not even necessary if you have decent teamwork. Many classes have defensive dispels for fears, polymorph, and other crowd control effects.

More importantly, if you read on, you will note that item level is of much less concern than having the proper statistics on your gear. Karazhan or Gruulís Lair epics are often of much worse quality for PvP than proper level 70 blues basically low stam, high DPS items are NOT PvP items. Again, casuals have some failure to comprehend Blizzardís blatant hints at what the primary PvP stats are.


WOW was built for both Casual players and hardcore players. Both types of game play are supported by the game. There are rewards for both types. The hardcore players will get better rewards. IF WoW is for both Casual players and Hardcore players, then why shouldn't BG be as well?

Life was built for both casual and hardcore players. That is, however, not an argument to rewarding mediocrity of ineptitude. You put in the time, effort, and skill or you donít get what you want. WoW should work that way. What the PvP gear level matching does is allow casuals to farm the same gear as hardcore players for less overall effort. There is exactly one set of PvP rewards, not one for casual PvPers and those who are serious about it. BG is already for both casual and hardcore players. Casuals simply shouldnít have as much fun or get the same rewards if they donít want to invest the time or effort. In the same way, that slacker playing WoW 20 hours a day better not make the same money as I do after spending years in college and graduate school.


It's fine and dandy that twinkers exist. However, it's not fair to casual players who just want to have fun. The game play is unbalanced and there is no competition. With the new implementation in BG, there will no longer be unbalanced games (I'm hoping). I still want things to be a challenge. BUT a casual player cannot beat a twinker that is his level unless, like I stated PREVIOUSLY, the twinker is a complete idiot and doesn't know how to play, or if he's ganged up on. This is not my definition of a challenge for either side.

Life isnít fair and it shouldnít be. You have an equality of opportunity to invest your time into the game as you see fit. You have the right to choose not to but donít expect to get the same returns as other people who are more willing to spend the time. Again, itís a question of equality and equality of opportunity. The latter already exists. The former doesnít and should never exist.

Casuals SHOULD NOT receive the same rewards or fun from the game as people who are hardcore.

This is the DUMBEST statement. THIS IS A GAME. It should be fun for everyone no matter if they play casually or hardcore. And the idea of fun is very subjective. I don't find farming fun or doing raids 24/7 fun; a hardcore player might. However, the word FAIR is pretty much identically understood by all in the game: having equal opportunity no matter the game play style. BG should be a challenge of skill, not equipment. The new implementation will finally challenge skill of both causal players and hardcore players.

The amount of utility (fun, wealth, etc. if youíre economically disinclined) should always be proportional to a function of talent and effort. Since talent can held to have the same distribution between casuals and hardcore players, the only variable is, thus, the time and effort put into the game. Life should not be as fun or easy for people who donít invest the time or effort and in the same way, WoW should not be as fun for people who are spending their time investing in other things. If these hardcore players are investing their time into this game for their utility, then they should reap more rewards than people who chose another investment or hobby. There is an absolute equality of opportunity in BGs; no one stops you from doing arena, heroics, or raids to get decent gear. As Iíve already noted, arena and Karazhan are already very casual friendly. BGs are not separate from the game of WoW itself, there is no need for separate equality of opportunity in BGs. Itís like handing the casuals a silver platter and saying ďyou didnít do the same work as these other people but weíll hand you the same rewards.Ē BG should be a method to enhance your fun based on what kind of effort you expend on WoW.

If you really don't have a clue how bad twinking is in the game, try playing in the lvl 10-19 bracket. The bracket where new players get their first taste of BG. It's HORRIBLE. It doesn't matter if you know what you're doing; I've seen single twinks walk through a whole volley of attacks by the entire group and wipe out 80% of the team.

Just because you lose doesnít mean there isnít an equality of opportunity. Get to 70 and farm some gear or gold (itís very easy to get gold at 70) and buy some BoEs for your character. You can do everything those other twinks did. What makes your fun more important than their fun?

I have yet to figure out why Iím supporter of liberalism when half of what it does is make people lazy and expect to get things easily in the name of equality.

I only play a few hours a week (stupid life and work getting in the way of WoW time) but this sounds very reasonable for casual gamers, but like all systems it will be exploited.

Probably very easily by people banking their items or putting their items in inventory before they queue should Blizzard choose to check that way. That or get lots of mediocre gear to decrease the average item level of the gear in their bags. Blizzard can't just not let people change gear after entering a BG so it's pretty much easily exploitable.

bobber205
May 7, 2007, 11:08 PM
What the above poster says is certainly true.
One twink could win a WSG BG by himself. Nobody needed.

Us "regulars" live in fear in WSG and other BGs because of twinks.

Though it is fun to gang up on one and get almost half of its health gone! :D

MyJelleo
May 8, 2007, 04:28 AM
It’s a horrible example, as I clearly noted explicitly after my claim, because it’s an item available to virtually all casuals and is an item that Blizzard is even making even more accessible post-patch by lowering the honor requirements. It’s also not a twink item at all since it requires level 70 (or 60 if you have the old version.) It works against your argument that casuals are so out of place in BGs. They’re not; the item you claim is the single most potent piece of PvP equipment isn’t exclusive at all. It’s also not even necessary if you have decent teamwork. Many classes have defensive dispels for fears, polymorph, and other crowd control effects.

More importantly, if you read on, you will note that item level is of much less concern than having the proper statistics on your gear. Karazhan or Gruul’s Lair epics are often of much worse quality for PvP than proper level 70 blues basically low stam, high DPS items are NOT PvP items. Again, casuals have some failure to comprehend Blizzard’s blatant hints at what the primary PvP stats are.




Life was built for both casual and hardcore players. That is, however, not an argument to rewarding mediocrity of ineptitude. You put in the time, effort, and skill or you don’t get what you want. WoW should work that way. What the PvP gear level matching does is allow casuals to farm the same gear as hardcore players for less overall effort. There is exactly one set of PvP rewards, not one for casual PvPers and those who are serious about it. BG is already for both casual and hardcore players. Casuals simply shouldn’t have as much fun or get the same rewards if they don’t want to invest the time or effort. In the same way, that slacker playing WoW 20 hours a day better not make the same money as I do after spending years in college and graduate school.




Life isn’t fair and it shouldn’t be. You have an equality of opportunity to invest your time into the game as you see fit. You have the right to choose not to but don’t expect to get the same returns as other people who are more willing to spend the time. Again, it’s a question of equality and equality of opportunity. The latter already exists. The former doesn’t and should never exist.



The amount of utility (fun, wealth, etc. if you’re economically disinclined) should always be proportional to a function of talent and effort. Since talent can held to have the same distribution between casuals and hardcore players, the only variable is, thus, the time and effort put into the game. Life should not be as fun or easy for people who don’t invest the time or effort and in the same way, WoW should not be as fun for people who are spending their time investing in other things. If these hardcore players are investing their time into this game for their utility, then they should reap more rewards than people who chose another investment or hobby. There is an absolute equality of opportunity in BGs; no one stops you from doing arena, heroics, or raids to get decent gear. As I’ve already noted, arena and Karazhan are already very casual friendly. BGs are not separate from the game of WoW itself, there is no need for separate equality of opportunity in BGs. It’s like handing the casuals a silver platter and saying “you didn’t do the same work as these other people but we’ll hand you the same rewards.” BG should be a method to enhance your fun based on what kind of effort you expend on WoW.



Just because you lose doesn’t mean there isn’t an equality of opportunity. Get to 70 and farm some gear or gold (it’s very easy to get gold at 70) and buy some BoEs for your character. You can do everything those other twinks did. What makes your fun more important than their fun?

I have yet to figure out why I’m supporter of liberalism when half of what it does is make people lazy and expect to get things easily in the name of equality.

I'm not even going to bother reading all that you wrote. Honestly, you're putting too much real world into the game. I'm just going to let the new BG implementation happen and play.

BTW The trinket is an example of how gear plays a vital role in BG. I don't really understand how this is a horrible example. Can someone else explain to me how my example is wrong? Someone who isn't trying to impress other people with knowledge no one cares about? I already said 2 times now that the trinket is not a twink item, yet I'm being told I am. I'm exhausted with this argument. I never said the trinket was.

I used it as an example to show how gear plays a VITAL ROLE in BG. Let me repeat that: I used it as an example to show how gear plays a VITAL ROLE in BG. Got it? GOOD.

WoW is a game. You play it to take a break from life. To compare WoW to life is ridiculous, IMHO. That's like saying Pornos should have the same acting quality as regular movies. People watch pornos for a different reason entirely. The same applies for WoW; people don't play WoW to live life.

Veldek
May 8, 2007, 10:49 AM
You have an utter failure to utilize basic reading comprehension skills.Sorry, but I have to agree with MyJelleo in this case. It's you who's missing reading comprehension skills (not meant as an offense). You always tell him his example was bad because it's not a twink item. But he stated over and over again that he did never say this and I agree.

He used this item as an example why equip > skill. It's not important in this case that it's an item everyone can get easily. There are other items not everyone can get, which are used by twinks. And these are the items that make the difference. I think you both agree in this point. Arguing about whether this item is a twink item or not is not the point here.

Sauron's Master
May 8, 2007, 03:28 PM
Sorry, but I have to agree with MyJelleo in this case. It's you who's missing reading comprehension skills (not meant as an offense). You always tell him his example was bad because it's not a twink item. But he stated over and over again that he did never say this and I agree.

He used this item as an example why equip > skill. It's not important in this case that it's an item everyone can get easily. There are other items not everyone can get, which are used by twinks. And these are the items that make the difference. I think you both agree in this point. Arguing about whether this item is a twink item or not is not the point here.

I'm not sure why you think my main problem with his example is that it's not a twink item when it's obvious the emphasis of my criticism is based on other factors.

It's accessible easily to all casuals (which detracts from your gear disparity argument) and its effects can often be easily replaced by teamwork and inherent class abilities (such as dispel, remove curse, berserker rage, etc.)

You also completely missed the point that it's not itemization that's the issue but, rather, misitemization by non-twinks and casuals.

It’s a horrible example, as I clearly noted explicitly after my claim, because it’s an item available to virtually all casuals and is an item that Blizzard is even making even more accessible post-patch by lowering the honor requirements. It works against your argument that casuals are so out of place in BGs. They’re not; the item you claim is the single most potent piece of PvP equipment isn’t exclusive at all. It’s also not even necessary if you have decent teamwork. Many classes have defensive dispels for fears, polymorph, and other crowd control effects.

You picked a horrible example because it's an item that's completely available even those who play casually.

I make the assertation that it's not a twink item once or twice while bringing about arguments about the example's flaws from other angles multiple times in various places. I fail to see how you could completely misread the post and think that my main issue is the fact that it's not a twink item. It's a poor example because it detracts from the argument that casuals are at such a disadvantage and also because it is easily outweighed by teamwork and the proper use of abilities. No amount of skill will make your weapons hit harder but I assure you that support classes actually playing their support roles will easily outweigh the utility of a PvP trinket.

In fact, my main argument is that gear availability is such that casuals have no basis to argue that they are at such an unfair advantage that they can't even do anything in PvP. As I noted specifically, casuals have the the inability to gear properly because they are limited in what they try to actively do about their deficiencies.

And no, it doesn't prove equipment is more important than skill. As I noted before, the failure of casuals in PvP is most often abject ineptitude at teamwork and understanding basic strategic concepts. They don't defend strategic points, focus fire on targets, heal, use dispels/advanced abilities, or even work cohesively as a team. It's not gear that holds casuals back but a lack of skill and willingness to ameliorate the problem.

In all honesty, the twink problem is probably worse in terms of actual character power differences than the casual vs. hardcore disparity at 70 but at the same time, it is much more easily rectified. Simply go twink your own characters. Gold is easy to acquire and so are low level BoE blues. If someone else is willing to spend more time and effort on their character, more power to them.

MyJelleo
May 8, 2007, 04:03 PM
Just because I like Bobber205, I'm going back to the topic.

I've noticed that twinking is at its worst in the 10-19 bracket; once you get past that point though, things start to mellow out. I think the change to BG will affect this 10-19 bracket the most.

I don't know if it's just me or not, but the Alliance seem to constantly dominate WSG. The horde sometimes wins, but a majority of the time it's Alliance ftw. Now I always have this constant fear when I see them coming over the hill.

dan-o-mac
May 8, 2007, 08:03 PM
I'm not sure why you think my main problem with his example is that it's not a twink item when it's obvious the emphasis of my criticism is based on other factors.









I make the assertation that it's not a twink item once or twice while bringing about arguments about the example's flaws from other angles multiple times in various places. I fail to see how you could completely misread the post and think that my main issue is the fact that it's not a twink item. It's a poor example because it detracts from the argument that casuals are at such a disadvantage and also because it is easily outweighed by teamwork and the proper use of abilities. No amount of skill will make your weapons hit harder but I assure you that support classes actually playing their support roles will easily outweigh the utility of a PvP trinket.

In fact, my main argument is that gear availability is such that casuals have no basis to argue that they are at such an unfair advantage that they can't even do anything in PvP. As I noted specifically, casuals have the the inability to gear properly because they are limited in what they try to actively do about their deficiencies.

And no, it doesn't prove equipment is more important than skill. As I noted before, the failure of casuals in PvP is most often abject ineptitude at teamwork and understanding basic strategic concepts. They don't defend strategic points, focus fire on targets, heal, use dispels/advanced abilities, or even work cohesively as a team. It's not gear that holds casuals back but a lack of skill and willingness to ameliorate the problem.

In all honesty, the twink problem is probably worse in terms of actual character power differences than the casual vs. hardcore disparity at 70 but at the same time, it is much more easily rectified. Simply go twink your own characters. Gold is easy to acquire and so are low level BoE blues. If someone else is willing to spend more time and effort on their character, more power to them.

So your arguement is that it's not gear but the lack of skill that holds casual players back. yet you say it is easily rectified by twinking your own character. :confused:

Sauron's Master
May 8, 2007, 08:34 PM
So your arguement is that it's not gear but the lack of skill that holds casual players back. yet you say it is easily rectified by twinking your own character. :confused:

Yes, much of what holds casuals back is often a lack of ability, much of which is common sense. This isn't exclusive to casuals (as a lot of hardcore players also have similar problems) but casuals, often, also don't have the luxury of epics to fall back on because casuals also tend to not know what to get.

It IS easier to win with better gear but better gear is very casual friendly in TBC (unlike with the original game) and improving teamwork and common sense tactics will also help significantly.

MyJelleo
May 8, 2007, 09:01 PM
Yes, much of what holds casuals back is often a lack of ability, much of which is common sense. This isn't exclusive to casuals (as a lot of hardcore players also have similar problems) but casuals, often, also don't have the luxury of epics to fall back on because casuals also tend to not know what to get.

It IS easier to win with better gear but better gear is very casual friendly in TBC (unlike with the original game) and improving teamwork and common sense tactics will also help significantly.

So getting hit once and dying is a lack of ability? Casual players != beginning players or stupid players. Casual players are people who play casually. Just because they play casually doesn't mean they don't know what they are doing.

I just played a game of WSG. A single twink ran into the middle of a group of 5. All of us were hitting and stunning him. The hunters were shooting from a distance and had their pets on him. He did not die. What he did do, however, is wipe out a majority of the group. This is a prime example of things being unbalanced.

A person shouldn't have to spend hours on their character to have fun. If you want to relate this to the real world, then from what I'm getting out of from what you've been saying in previous posts is that people who casually play basketball shouldn't have fun playing unless they are tall and can play like a pro.

As with basketball, there is pure pro competition and then there is pure casual fun. BG at the moment does not support pure casual fun, especially at the lower levels. The 10-19 bracket is brutal.

Mr B
May 9, 2007, 12:35 AM
It is tough to compete nowadays without being twinked, true. I have characters at almost every lvl cap right now, while only one of them is twinked. But, I can still help, have fun, and greatly contribute to the outcome of the game with my non-twinks. I went into wsg with my lvl 30 shammie today (he is a future 39 twink) and we won 3-0. He was number 1 in healing and returned 3 flags. You can make a difference, even at the lowest lvl in the bracket.

If you don't twink, you're not gonna be superman, but if you are smart and use your CC, healing, and other utility abilities along with good strategy and positioning, you can make yourself the most annoying non-twink to fight out there.

Admittedly, the 10-19 bracket it is the biggest problem, but casuals should lvl past that in about 3 days so shouldn't be much of an issue. Just get to 30s and 40s where twinking matters but you can still really compete greatly without it.

Sauron's Master
May 9, 2007, 01:34 AM
So getting hit once and dying is a lack of ability? Casual players != beginning players or stupid players. Casual players are people who play casually. Just because they play casually doesn't mean they don't know what they are doing.

I just played a game of WSG. A single twink ran into the middle of a group of 5. All of us were hitting and stunning him. The hunters were shooting from a distance and had their pets on him. He did not die. What he did do, however, is wipe out a majority of the group. This is a prime example of things being unbalanced.

A person shouldn't have to spend hours on their character to have fun. If you want to relate this to the real world, then from what I'm getting out of from what you've been saying in previous posts is that people who casually play basketball shouldn't have fun playing unless they are tall and can play like a pro.

As with basketball, there is pure pro competition and then there is pure casual fun. BG at the moment does not support pure casual fun, especially at the lower levels. The 10-19 bracket is brutal.

Again, we're having two different conversations here. I am referring to general casual PvP (most of which occurs at 70) and where there is the most limitation on casuals for gear and perfomance. Casuals can do exactly what hardcore players do and make twinks; in fact, most of the twink players I know who people who specifically don't want to raid and have to keep moving on the gear treadmill where they have to keep working to get maintain their level of gear. A twink allows casuals and hardcore players alike to be able to not constantly have to improve their gear because Blizzard doesn't release new items for level 19 characters.

Are you completely unable to read? I noted specifically that the lack of skill is not exclusive to casual players; however, casual players are most often held back by a lack of skill rather than a gear disparity. In fact, MOST players are held back by a lack of skill rather than a lack of gear. It's a general postulate that is backed by the repeated ineptitude displayed by all players in BGs. What hardcore players bother to do is spend time getting gear to compensate for this lack of skill. Your absolute inability to understand the specifics of what I'm talking about completely highlights this problem with people in general who play the game.

Do you understand the concept of utility? If not, go look it up within an economics context. The primary measure of utility you can derive from WoW is fun whereas there numerous measures of utility in real life such as monetary value, enjoyment, higher comparative ranking, etc. However, what should be consistent is that the function of effort and talent should be proportional to utility derived in a working system. So yes, people who are born tall or spend a lot of time playing basketball should derive more utility than people who don't or are born poor jumpers or have limited hand-eye coordination. There is nothing unfair about that.

Now if you want to delineate multiple leagues such as pro and fun leagues in basketball, the rewards should be also be proportional. If casuals want their own little PvP league where there is a gear maximum cap, then feel free too as long as you receive less rewards than people playing in the "hardcore" leagues. Again, it doesn't matter that BGs are less fun for casuals because that's how it should be as you are either less skilled or less invested in the game.

I have no idea why I'm even bothering to explain this multiple times because you didn't get it the first time.

It is tough to compete nowadays without being twinked, true. I have characters at almost every lvl cap right now, while only one of them is twinked. But, I can still help, have fun, and greatly contribute to the outcome of the game with my non-twinks. I went into wsg with my lvl 30 shammie today (he is a future 39 twink) and we won 3-0. He was number 1 in healing and returned 3 flags. You can make a difference, even at the lowest lvl in the bracket.

If you don't twink, you're not gonna be superman, but if you are smart and use your CC, healing, and other utility abilities along with good strategy and positioning, you can make yourself the most annoying non-twink to fight out there.

Admittedly, the 10-19 bracket it is the biggest problem, but casuals should lvl past that in about 3 days so shouldn't be much of an issue. Just get to 30s and 40s where twinking matters but you can still really compete greatly without it.

Very good post here.

And the real reason the 10-19 bracket is the worst is that enchants are non-scaling so the level 60-70 enchants have the greatest effect on the lowest level items. Enchants are the problem and the only part of twinking that's really abusive. I see no problem with people buying level 19 gear for their characters since non-twinks can very easily do it as well and there is comparatively small marginal benefits from twink to non-twink gear.

Blizzard is already fixing the issue of enchants by restricting the level item they can be applied to.

Attention Sauron's Master

Please no longer post in this topic.

I hate to do this, but as the creator I feel I have the right. You have started nothing but pointless arguments.

Another post from you will result in you being reported.

I would hate to see such a (was and potentially) useful topic go to waste and be banned b/c of you. :D

Thanks.

No, you really don't have the right just because you started the thread. This is a public forum and thus, it asks for public discussion of topics. Now, if you actually bothered to ask me nicely instead of being presumptuous and arrogant and telling me, I might be inclined to ignore MyJelloo's comments but at this time, I feel the need to clarify the misinformation he's abundantly spreading.

Counterfit
May 9, 2007, 03:58 AM
Again, it doesn't matter that BGs are less fun for casuals because that's how it should be as you are either less skilled or less invested in the game.

Blizzard has been trying to balance the needs/preferences/wants of casual vs. hardcore with WoW. Why shouldn't a casual player be allowed to have fun in BGs? Doesn't their $13-$15 every month go just as far?\

I noted specifically that the lack of skill is not exclusive to casual players; however, casual players are most often held back by a lack of skill rather than a gear disparity.

But even with equal (or better) skill, the person with better gear (blues with enchants vs. greens) has a huge advantage. When I doing WSG with my hunter in the 10-19 bracket, I hated going up against twinked rogues, because they damn near always had fiery enchants (plus, they're the only class with dual wield before lvl 20). I guess I couldn't justify buying a 25g lvl 19 dagger.

MyJelleo
May 9, 2007, 04:23 AM
No, you really don't have the right just because you started the thread. This is a public forum and thus, it asks for public discussion of topics. Now, if you actually bothered to ask me nicely instead of being presumptuous and arrogant and telling me, I might be inclined to ignore MyJelloo's comments but at this time, I feel the need to clarify the misinformation he's abundantly spreading.

You're just writing your posts to make people laugh, right? You don't honestly think this way, do you? HA HA, I get it now.

Counterfit made a point that I missed. All the playersl pay 13-15 dollars a month to play the game. That is what we give up to have fun in the game. Everyone is entitled to enjoy the game equally without having to meet the requirements that you have listed in your posts.

You told me in a past post that you have the luxury of being able to play while getting ahead in reality. I'm still not sure what this reality is of yours, but here is mine: World of Warcraft is a game. As a game, World of Warcraft should be able to give all who play it the opportunity to have fun and enjoy it without being required to give up more than the money spent to purchase the game and for the monthly fees.

You have turned the game into a sick obsession that you have linked to your Real Life. WOW was never meant to represent any ideas in real life or to replace real life. I don't jump into a game of Mario because his growth from eating a mushroom might represent humans dominance over all other creatures in the world. I play it for fun and when I have time. The same applies for WoW. People pay money to be entertained and to have fun, not to be required to give up more hours of their life than they want in order to achieve any sort of entertainment value. I'm becoming more in-tuned with my reality as I live in it. I don't need a game to help further my understanding of it for me.

And with that, I am done with this argument. Can we please move on? Bobber205 has been patient enough.

MyJelleo
May 9, 2007, 05:13 AM
It is tough to compete nowadays without being twinked, true. I have characters at almost every lvl cap right now, while only one of them is twinked. But, I can still help, have fun, and greatly contribute to the outcome of the game with my non-twinks. I went into wsg with my lvl 30 shammie today (he is a future 39 twink) and we won 3-0. He was number 1 in healing and returned 3 flags. You can make a difference, even at the lowest lvl in the bracket.

If you don't twink, you're not gonna be superman, but if you are smart and use your CC, healing, and other utility abilities along with good strategy and positioning, you can make yourself the most annoying non-twink to fight out there.

Admittedly, the 10-19 bracket it is the biggest problem, but casuals should lvl past that in about 3 days so shouldn't be much of an issue. Just get to 30s and 40s where twinking matters but you can still really compete greatly without it.

Yeah, the 10-19 bracket is indeed an issue, but it shouldn't be ignored. This is the bracket where most new players will be introduced to PVP, and where they should be able to hone their skills as a pvper and as a team player instead of being killed in one hit.

Now in your experience with your lvl 30 shammie, were the rest of your teammates twinked or at a higher lvl. If your teammates were all in the lower 30s, I'm sure that the results would have been very different. And also, how many one on one fights did you win?

WSG can be great fun when the game is balanced (equal amount of twinks on both sides). However, most of the time, this is not the case. It's hard to have fun when all the twinks of the opposing team decide to camp your graveyard and refuse to cap the flag because they want to rack up more kills. Sure, I could still heal, but what's the point when the person I'm healing is getting killed in one hit. I've had my fair share of fun games when I was the lowest lvl in the team, but I've had much more annoying matches than fun ones.

I hate it when they spit on you after killing you...

Sdashiki
May 9, 2007, 07:31 AM
I am SO glad I dont play WoW, cept the free Beta many moons ago.

Seems it makes you into bitter, angry, opinionated people.

Its just a game.

And with 9 million +, your complaints are not heard I guess.

ps: last i recall PvP was kind of silly, like all "combat" in WoW, you dont physically have to have collision of objects/monsters/characters to signal damage, its just like any "dice-rolling" game, millions of calculations going on in the background, and what you see is an animation and some dmg/hp points moving around. its certainly not like any other game where a hit is a hit and a miss is obvious. so, why complain, its all numbers not skills. LoL.

bobber205
May 9, 2007, 08:08 AM
Anybody have any ideas when perhaps Blizzard might patch this into the real game and all BGs for all levels?

And if this will increase queue times, why doesn't Blizzard throw more realms together for the BGs?

All in one would be best as there would be no wait times. ;)

Jovian9
May 9, 2007, 08:16 AM
While I do not have any twinks and almost NEVER play BG's; I do have a level 70 character and some high teens/20's/30's characters. I appreciate everyones opinions on this matter but this thread has actually made me want to have a twink of my own :)

Sauron's Master
May 9, 2007, 10:41 AM
Anybody have any ideas when perhaps Blizzard might patch this into the real game and all BGs for all levels?

And if this will increase queue times, why doesn't Blizzard throw more realms together for the BGs?

All in one would be best as there would be no wait times. ;)

It's already implemented in 2.1.0 since you don't seem to read patch notes.

Battlegrounds
The new battleground matchmaking system is now implemented and active. This system allows the battleground to select teams of similar equipment quality and organizational level to battle each other. For now, the system will be very forgiving about creating matchups in order to keep queue times low. However, the parameters will be adjusted as necessary when more organized teams become active in the battlegrounds.

Many of the servers aren't located in the same data center or server rack so I'm certain there'd be more system overhead and technical issues with having everyone in the same battlegroup.

Sauron's Master
May 9, 2007, 10:49 AM
Blizzard has been trying to balance the needs/preferences/wants of casual vs. hardcore with WoW. Why shouldn't a casual player be allowed to have fun in BGs? Doesn't their $13-$15 every month go just as far?\

The real cost of WoW is NOT the $13-15 you pay for having an account; it's the opportunity cost of whatever time you spend playing the game. Assume that your time is worth whatever minimum wage is and even playing a few hours, your opportunity cost is already greater than the monthly fee. Why don't we all give everyone all the gear they want since they pay the fee? Why do we have leveling at all if we pay a monthly fee? That's what you argument comes down to and paying a monthly fee doesn't somehow give you a free ticket to everything. Obviously, Blizzard's considerations and design decisions are done on their own economic basis and therefore are different from what it rationally should be.


But even with equal (or better) skill, the person with better gear (blues with enchants vs. greens) has a huge advantage. When I doing WSG with my hunter in the 10-19 bracket, I hated going up against twinked rogues, because they damn near always had fiery enchants (plus, they're the only class with dual wield before lvl 20). I guess I couldn't justify buying a 25g lvl 19 dagger.

Again, the issue is primarily with the enchants. If they fixed the abusive usage of enchants on level 19 characters (which they already are) then it becomes a non-issue. My primary arguments refer more specifically to level 70 PvP than the 10-19 bracket for reasons I have already listed. And yes, I guess you couldn't justify buying a 25g level 19 dagger. That's why those players should do better than you; they chose to take the cost and they should be able to benefit from their decision. You now have 25g you can use elsewhere. But honestly, how long does it take to farm 25g? 15-30min to a hour at most on a 70? Perfectly reasonable price if you're going to keep a character in the 10-19 bracket. If not, you should level out of the top of the bracket in a hour or two of playing anyway.

Mr B
May 9, 2007, 10:50 AM
Yeah, the 10-19 bracket is indeed an issue, but it shouldn't be ignored. This is the bracket where most new players will be introduced to PVP, and where they should be able to hone their skills as a pvper and as a team player instead of being killed in one hit.

Now in your experience with your lvl 30 shammie, were the rest of your teammates twinked or at a higher lvl. If your teammates were all in the lower 30s, I'm sure that the results would have been very different. And also, how many one on one fights did you win?

WSG can be great fun when the game is balanced (equal amount of twinks on both sides). However, most of the time, this is not the case. It's hard to have fun when all the twinks of the opposing team decide to camp your graveyard and refuse to cap the flag because they want to rack up more kills. Sure, I could still heal, but what's the point when the person I'm healing is getting killed in one hit. I've had my fair share of fun games when I was the lowest lvl in the team, but I've had much more annoying matches than fun ones.

I hate it when they spit on you after killing you...

Oh I'm not recommending you go in as a lvl 30 very often! ;p I got ripped apart by some hunters, but the beauty is, most people are too dumb to kill the healers first. I didn't do any 1v1s cause I didn't LET myself. And yes, at the beginning of the match found the best geared warrior and stayed near him the whole match and was his pocket healer.

I play with my lvl 49 twink mage most of the time, and I actually am in favor of this new matchmaking. At the higher lvls at least, in my experience, people actually want the challenge of fighting decently geared people.

Honestly, at first, we won't see much difference, as Blizzard has already said that the system will be pretty loose to avoid queue times. The 10-19 bracket and 20-29 bracket where there are tons of people will probably see more change, with a bigger player pool.

I mostly play 40-49 though, much more fun when everyone has their 31pt. abilities and mounts for me. And twinking makes less difference. My mage can rip through some people, but let me tell you, a hunter in all greens that has a big Red Pet can still give me trouble. Heck, his pet can pretty much solo me.

Mr B
May 9, 2007, 10:57 AM
The real cost of WoW is NOT the $13-15 you pay for having an account; it's the opportunity cost of whatever time you spend playing the game. Assume that your time is worth whatever minimum wage is and even playing a few hours, your opportunity cost is already greater than the monthly fee. Why don't we all give everyone all the gear they want since they pay the fee? Why do we have leveling at all if we pay a monthly fee? That's what you argument comes down to and paying a monthly fee doesn't somehow give you a free ticket to everything. Obviously, Blizzard's considerations and design decisions are done on their own economic basis and therefore are different from what it rationally should be.




Again, the issue is primarily with the enchants. If they fixed the abusive usage of enchants on level 19 characters (which they already are) then it becomes a non-issue. My primary arguments refer more specifically to level 70 PvP than the 10-19 bracket for reasons I have already listed. And yes, I guess you couldn't justify buying a 25g level 19 dagger. That's why those players should do better than you; they chose to take the cost and they should be able to benefit from their decision. You now have 25g you can use elsewhere. But honestly, how long does it take to farm 25g? 15-30min to a hour at most on a 70? Perfectly reasonable price if you're going to keep a character in the 10-19 bracket. If not, you should level out of the top of the bracket in a hour or two of playing anyway.

I personally agree with some of what Sauron is saying (that sounds weird). Yes everyone should be able to have fun. But regarding whether you buy a 25g dagger or not, that is a decision and sacrifice you have to make based on whether you want that advantage. I have a druid at lvl 68 who is not going to get his crow form right now because I am choosing to spend the money on a lvl 39 shammie. (My druid never got the epic riding skill that you need for crow form). Would I like to be able to fly around Outland? Heck yeah! But I know pvping at the lower brackets is what I spend most of my game time on, and so I made a sacrifice to maximize that.

This doesn't mean i think twinking is perfect, the enchants are out of hand, but to some extent this game is about getting gear advantages, that's the whole point. You can argue whether that is a good reason to play the game, but this game is basically all about having fun with your friends, while the mechanics of the game are all based on gear differences. That goes for PVE or PVP.

Sauron's Master
May 9, 2007, 11:00 AM
You're just writing your posts to make people laugh, right? You don't honestly think this way, do you? HA HA, I get it now.

Counterfit made a point that I missed. All the playersl pay 13-15 dollars a month to play the game. That is what we give up to have fun in the game. Everyone is entitled to enjoy the game equally without having to meet the requirements that you have listed in your posts.

It assumes me to note all your ridiculous and clumsy ideas. And how do I think? Rationally and in an economic fashion? Sorry, I fail to see how that's so "bad."

Either way, as I noted in response to Counterfit's post, the real cost isn't the monthly fee and it isn't a golden ticket to everything. Therefore, you have no stated claim to equality when you spend half the time someone else does. You already have the equality of opportunity; Blizzard gives everyone equal chance to get gear and upgrade their characters.

You told me in a past post that you have the luxury of being able to play while getting ahead in reality. I'm still not sure what this reality is of yours, but here is mine: World of Warcraft is a game. As a game, World of Warcraft should be able to give all who play it the opportunity to have fun and enjoy it without being required to give up more than the money spent to purchase the game and for the monthly fees.

It does give everyone the opportunity to have fun. However, it forces you (as it should) to do more to have more fun. Utility and benefit should be proportional to cost.

You have turned the game into a sick obsession that you have linked to your Real Life. WOW was never meant to represent any ideas in real life or to replace real life. I don't jump into a game of Mario because his growth from eating a mushroom might represent humans dominance over all other creatures in the world. I play it for fun and when I have time. The same applies for WoW. People pay money to be entertained and to have fun, not to be required to give up more hours of their life than they want in order to achieve any sort of entertainment value. I'm becoming more in-tuned with my reality as I live in it. I don't need a game to help further my understanding of it for me.

And with that, I am done with this argument. Can we please move on? Bobber205 has been patient enough.

Refer to my externality argument. The reality is that just because it's a game doesn't mean that you should get everything free in it and that's precisely what you asking for. You're asking for the same benefit as someone who does more for it than you are. If you could freely get any item you wanted in WoW, I don't think anyone would bother to play anymore. No one wants just the item. There's a lot to it but that's irrelevant to this conversation. You're obviously out of tune with reality because you really have no conceptualization of what I've been describing which is precisely how the world works.

You are trading $15 a month to have an opportunity to have fun. Blizzard doesn't guarantee fun nor should they. You have to spend time playing WoW to have fun (yes, playing 0 hours and having the account really does nothing) so regardless of what you say, you have to invest time in it to do so. Playing a solo RPG requires time to have fun. Buying a big screen TV to be entertained has a cost attached to it. If you don't understand concepts of cost and benefit, I fail to see how you can get anywhere in life.

Sauron's Master
May 9, 2007, 11:06 AM
I personally agree with some of what Sauron is saying (that sounds weird). Yes everyone should be able to have fun. But regarding whether you buy a 25g dagger or not, that is a decision and sacrifice you have to make based on whether you want that advantage. I have a druid at lvl 68 who is not going to get his crow form right now because I am choosing to spend the money on a lvl 39 shammie. (My druid never got the epic riding skill that you need for crow form). Would I like to be able to fly around Outland? Heck yeah! But I know pvping at the lower brackets is what I spend most of my game time on, and so I made a sacrifice to maximize that.


Just a small aside, gold becomes VERY easy at 70 if you leave the Netherstorm and SMV quests intact. You can just run around doing them and get 50-100g/hour without the monotony of sitting around and grinding mobs. Blade's Edge Mountains quests are also so much easier with a mount and pretty worthwhile for gold at 70.

mwpeters8182
May 9, 2007, 01:30 PM
Stuff like this is why I'll never want to play an MMORPG. I seems like the people who are arguing against this change are the ones seeking validation for their spending hours and hours playing a video game, while others who play the game casually spend their time doing other things as well. It's a game, it should be fun for everyone who plays.

Counterfit
May 9, 2007, 02:44 PM
Why don't we all give everyone all the gear they want since they pay the fee? Why do we have leveling at all if we pay a monthly fee? That's what you argument comes down to and paying a monthly fee doesn't somehow give you a free ticket to everything.

I never said that the fee should get you any gear you want. It merely gives you the right to have fun while playing, no matter how much actual time you spend.

Sauron's Master
May 9, 2007, 03:01 PM
I never said that the fee should get you any gear you want. It merely gives you the right to have fun while playing, no matter how much actual time you spend.

Your logic is that the fee is an absolute entitlement to have just have as much fun as someone who spends more time. The examples serve to illustrate the flaw of that logic and that even you would find yourself questioning it if applied to other aspects of the game. The fee entitles you to the right to potentially have fun. As I noted before, you gain nothing from the game if you don't play at all but still keep the account. Your fun is a function of the time and effort you spend on it as it should be.

Stuff like this is why I'll never want to play an MMORPG. I seems like the people who are arguing against this change are the ones seeking validation for their spending hours and hours playing a video game, while others who play the game casually spend their time doing other things as well. It's a game, it should be fun for everyone who plays.

I guess you must not like playing the MMORPG of life either because that's the precise behavior of people rationalizing their irrational decisions in real life.

It's a game; it should be more fun for people who spend more time and incur more opportunity costs. Not that you know what that is.

One thing I will never understand is the whole stigma of spending time playing a MMORPG. If you accept that the pursuit of life is to maximize one's utility, then if someone does it while spending their time playing a game, I fail to see the failure of logic there. If you define utility as "success" in life, then everything that doesn't advance your career, social standing, and material wealth is an absolute failure on your part. That leaves work and social manipulation as the only productive things left on this planet.

MyJelleo
May 9, 2007, 05:09 PM
Don't play WoW people. It's not meant for fun. The money you spend to buy the game isn't spent towards the opportunity to have fun; it's for the opportunity to give up more of your life than you want in order to have fun. This is what Mr. Hot Pocket seems to be insinuating.

Fun has a static definition. In WoW, if you think you're having fun at a low level, you're lying to yourself. You haven't put in enough time and effort to deserve real fun. True fun lies at the higher levels, where time and effort has been spent. The stuff you experienced in the past was all lies. It was your mind tricking you into believing you were having fun.

The only way to enjoy low lvl BG is to first get to lvl 70, which makes complete sense.

MyJelleo
May 9, 2007, 07:37 PM
Anyway, last night I had another unbalanced game of WSG. The opposing team was full of twinks, while my team was composed of lvl 16-17s. We gave up trying to get the flag and focused on working together in hopes of killing one twink. We failed.

The twinks then refused to cap the flag so that they could farm us. Teamwork really does help. It helped us to survive a little longer.

WildCowboy
May 9, 2007, 07:50 PM
Folks, things have gotten a bit personal in here. But for the most part, it seems to be a pretty rational conversation. People are certainly allowed to hold differing viewpoints, and discussion of them is encouraged.

Please stick to presenting your side of discussion without resorting to name-calling and personal insults.

bobber205
May 9, 2007, 07:52 PM
Folks, things have gotten a bit personal in here. But for the most part, it seems to be a pretty rational conversation. People are certainly allowed to hold differing viewpoints, and discussion of them is encouraged.

Please stick to presenting your side of discussion without resorting to name-calling and personal insults.

Thank you. :)

Sauron's Master
May 9, 2007, 07:56 PM
Anyway, last night I had another unbalanced game of WSG. The opposing team was full of twinks, while my team was composed of lvl 16-17s. We gave up trying to get the flag and focused on working together in hopes of killing one twink. We failed.

The twinks then refused to cap the flag so that they could farm us. Teamwork really does help. It helped us to survive a little longer.

The plural form of ancedote really is data, huh?

In fact, all ancedotes are reliable as well!

bobber205
May 9, 2007, 08:00 PM
Anyway, last night I had another unbalanced game of WSG. The opposing team was full of twinks, while my team was composed of lvl 16-17s. We gave up trying to get the flag and focused on working together in hopes of killing one twink. We failed.

The twinks then refused to cap the flag so that they could farm us. Teamwork really does help. It helped us to survive a little longer.


Lol. The best post so far. :D :D

Mr B
May 9, 2007, 10:59 PM
Thank you. :)

Hey I'm new here, but I think the moderator was partly addressing your call for the thread to end because it wasn't necessarily going how you liked. Your viewpoint is valid, that Jelly guy's is, as is Sauron's. I think you all have made some valid points, and as the moderator said, don't get personal, but don't get sore if someone doesn't agree with you.

Twinks are a tough question, look at the WoW boards, it's always about it. And you think the anger AT twinks is bad. Look at the anger BETWEEN them in the battlegroup forums. There are still some problems to be addressed for sure. On the other hand, when I lose and whine, my guild mate hits me with a good quote: "Less QQ and more pew pew."

MyJelleo
May 10, 2007, 12:42 AM
Hey I'm new here, but I think the moderator was partly addressing your call for the thread to end because it wasn't necessarily going how you liked. Your viewpoint is valid, that Jelly guy's is, as is Sauron's. I think you all have made some valid points, and as the moderator said, don't get personal, but don't get sore if someone doesn't agree with you.

Twinks are a tough question, look at the WoW boards, it's always about it. And you think the anger AT twinks is bad. Look at the anger BETWEEN them in the battlegroup forums. There are still some problems to be addressed for sure. On the other hand, when I lose and whine, my guild mate hits me with a good quote: "Less QQ and more pew pew."

What's pew pew? Is that the sound a gun makes? I always thought they made a bang bang.

I find hardcore players to be strange online. They really can make online games to be more than they are supposed to be. I recall a number of HARDCORE players dying from over playing, such as that Chinese girl who didn't sleep for I don't know how long. She was too busy playing something for her guild. Then there was the EQ player who shot himself in the head in front of his computer monitor. No one is sure what happened there.

These are just a few examples of why online games and real life should be kept separate. Get online to play and have fun; don't turn it into your life. It's just not healthy.

Now excuse me as I get back onto WoW and get spit on by twinks again.

Sauron's Master
May 10, 2007, 05:55 PM
What's pew pew? Is that the sound a gun makes? I always thought they made a bang bang.

I find hardcore players to be strange online. They really can make online games to be more than they are supposed to be. I recall a number of HARDCORE players dying from over playing, such as that Chinese girl who didn't sleep for I don't know how long. She was too busy playing something for her guild. Then there was the EQ player who shot himself in the head in front of his computer monitor. No one is sure what happened there.

These are just a few examples of why online games and real life should be kept separate. Get online to play and have fun; don't turn it into your life. It's just not healthy.

Now excuse me as I get back onto WoW and get spit on by twinks again.

Pew pew would be a laser.

I find casual players to be strange online. They refuse to accept that any MMORPG is an activity in reality and thus all the rules of reality apply to it. Playing a MMORPG is no different than collecting stamps, buying and restoring classic cars, or even working. People do it for the sake of increasing their ability and virtually every activity has some propensity to encourage obsessive-compulsive behavior. People don't work their marriages and lives into oblivion nor do people die from heat exhaustion from playing football in 100 degree weather, right? Oh wait, they do. I fail to see how someone dying from too much WoW is different from someone dying from football or from skydiving. There's nothing exclusive to MMORPGs that drives that sort of compulsive and irrational behavior.

If a schizophrenic person plays WoW and dies, it's most likely not due to the game, it's due to his mental illness. The people who spent days straight playing a game and ignoring basic fundamental survival instincts died not from the game itself but from his or her mental deficiency. You can replace "playing a game" with any activity and the logic works flawlessly as well. Mental disorders cause obsessive behavior, not MMORPGs.

Every in life when linked with obsession yields poor results so no, that's an excuse to somehow say we should "separate" the real world and MMOs. You're playing a MMO for real world gain if you haven't realized that by now.

And really, if you're having so little fun in BGs, either you're lying about it or you're completely inept. When something goes wrong, you don't keep slamming your head into the wall. You either adapt or find better uses for your time. Now, excuse me while I go farm more casuals for easy honor since they can't seem to either adapt or quit.

Digidesign
May 10, 2007, 06:44 PM
Playing a MMORPG is no different than collecting stamps, buying and restoring classic cars, or even working.

Working gives me money and improves my real-life skills. WoW does not. Raising my cooking/fishing/fighting skill in WoW means jack in real life.

I fail to see how someone dying from too much WoW is different from someone dying from football or from skydiving. There's nothing exclusive to MMORPGs that drives that sort of compulsive and irrational behavior.

There's plenty about MMORPGs that feed off of people's lack of strong psychological boundaries. The worse a person handles real life, the more they are drawn into WoW, a place that can make up for their deficiencies, and grant them easy rewards by a (somewhat) more-predictable system than real life. It is specifically designed to feed off of people's poor psychological boundaries, for the sake of a monthly profit to Blizzard. It is the same with casinos and gambling addicts. Everything a casino does is designed to keep you there until you lose.

Basically the WoW addict suffers from:
1) the inability to "achieve" goals in real-life <--- derives happiness from completing quests which are far easier than real life goals.

2) the unhappiness with their physical self (low self-esteem) <-- derives identity from in-game success, far easier than developing real life success.

3) social awkwardness and immaturity <-- derives pleasure from dominating others which in real life would never have the chance to "win" over others.

Are there mentally healthy people playing wow? Sure, but they are the ones that realize it's a BUSINESS meant to keep you playing and paying to Blizzard. There's a fine line between seeing WoW as a game and as a business, but the addicts do not see it, and that is the danger. Again, same thing with gambling addicts. Is poker bad, evil? No, but the addiction to it is.

You're playing a MMO for real world gain if you haven't realized that by now.

There is no real-world gain, only loss. The only real-world effect I see from WoW is loss of time, money and far worse the internal compass of what's truly important in life. That's like saying I get real-world gain at casinos. The system wasn't designed for you to profit. It was designed so that the house ultimately wins. WoW was designed so that Blizzard ultimately wins. You might have fun along with all the other players, and profit here and there on some laughs and excitement, but there's more to life than "having fun". People that are immature and have not grown up do not understand this. The real-world gain is not measured in what you can get, but what you can give. WoW is just about what you can get.

You've deluded yourself by telling yourself a lie that being addicted to WoW is just normal everyday stuff. It is not, and that is the danger of MMORPGs because they twist your sense of what is real and what is not. They will ultimately overwrite your real-life goals with the in-game quest log, and your real-life sense of identity and happiness with in-game rewards. Be careful of ANY system that does that, not just WoW.

By the way, just because WoW is not the only thing out there that can mess people up doesn't mean it's OK. Just because cocaine exists doesn't mean crack is OK. Are there idiots and mentally disturbed people who trip up over the smallest things? Yeah, but that's not the point. You have to look at WoW at what it is, and how it affects your life. Pointing at other things is just a cowards way out.

Digidesign
May 10, 2007, 07:07 PM
One thing I will never understand is the whole stigma of spending time playing a MMORPG. If you accept that the pursuit of life is to maximize one's utility, then if someone does it while spending their time playing a game, I fail to see the failure of logic there. If you define utility as "success" in life, then everything that doesn't advance your career, social standing, and material wealth is an absolute failure on your part. That leaves work and social manipulation as the only productive things left on this planet.

There are bigger things in life than playing video games, and they have nothing to do with "work" and "social manipulation" either.

People that have no life will never understand, because they are too afraid to find meaning aside from what's presented them in the form of a video game.

Man, I feel bad for you.

bobber205
May 10, 2007, 07:45 PM
Owned.

Sauron's Master
May 11, 2007, 12:56 AM
Oh, how you people do feed me oh so much.

Working gives me money and improves my real-life skills. WoW does not. Raising my cooking/fishing/fighting skill in WoW means jack in real life.

You have an absolutely failure in the understanding of basic economic theory then. Every action is in the pursuit of utility for ourselves. Raising x skill yields a return of y utility in z time just like going to work creates y utility in z time. You go to work to raise your utility. You play WoW to increase your utility. Did you not pay attention in high school or did you just drop out? The goal is ultimately the same and what merely differs is your methodology to increase your utility and the improvement and creation of methodologies is where the game of life takes skill.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility for a more thorough discussion of utility in the economic context it’s used in.


There's plenty about MMORPGs that feed off of people's lack of strong psychological boundaries. The worse a person handles real life, the more they are drawn into WoW, a place that can make up for their deficiencies, and grant them easy rewards by a (somewhat) more-predictable system than real life. It is specifically designed to feed off of people's poor psychological boundaries, for the sake of a monthly profit to Blizzard. It is the same with casinos and gambling addicts. Everything a casino does is designed to keep you there until you lose.

Again, the debate is about whether there is anything intrinsic to MMORPGs that somehow creates a propensity for them to because obsessive-compulsive and not whether they can create that quality in individuals. Going to work obsessively cuts an individual off from their marital or social problems and gives them a place where they can control more completely the factors affecting their life. They can make up for their social “deficiencies” and grant themselves easy rewards by a predictable system.

Every person who works in a corporation is obviously pathological because they’re shielding themselves from of entrepreneurship, right. Oh wait, they’re not. MMOs do nothing that ‘normal’ hobbies couldn’t. Some people go out and go backpacking obsessively because they want to get away from their lives. Are we arguing that backpacking causes that or that it’s the inherent psychological state of mind of these people that causes it?

And again, you talk about how WoW potentially draws these people who handle real life worse than others. What amounts to is a tacit admission is that these people already have problems prior to the game which destroys the causality relationship you’re attempting to imply.

Again, yes, a casino exploits the addictiveness tendencies of individuals and uses it to make a profit. That doesn’t mean casinos CAUSE those tendencies. The ability of an activity to draw people with prior psychological tendencies to obsess or become addicted is not indicative of the activity’s ability to create pathologies. Every activity that requires time investment has the tendency to turn people who are already afflicted by obsessive-compulsive tendencies to become addicted. Therefore, WoW or any MMORPG is not unique in any way from the corporate cubicle or hunting or rally car racing or sports.

Basically the WoW addict suffers from:
1) the inability to "achieve" goals in real-life <--- derives happiness from completing quests which are far easier than real life goals.

2) the unhappiness with their physical self (low self-esteem) <-- derives identity from in-game success, far easier than developing real life success.

3) social awkwardness and immaturity <-- derives pleasure from dominating others which in real life would never have the chance to "win" over others.

Are there mentally healthy people playing wow? Sure, but they are the ones that realize it's a BUSINESS meant to keep you playing and paying to Blizzard. There's a fine line between seeing WoW as a game and as a business, but the addicts do not see it, and that is the danger. Again, same thing with gambling addicts. Is poker bad, evil? No, but the addiction to it is.

Excuse me, but may I request your demographic data from which you get these conclusions about the “WoW addict”?

Oh wait, you don’t have any and you’re basing your conclusions completely on unfounded stereotypes. Then again, you could replace “WoW addict’ with any term from “sports addict” to “work addict” and have your conclusions seem true.

I can complete a Sudoku puzzle in real life faster than it takes me to complete a quest in WoW. Which gives me greater sense of accomplishment and happiness? It doesn’t matter either way because the ultimate goal is utility. If these addicts rational capacity to determine that it’s easier to complete WoW quests, then they have the rational capacity to link the sense of accomplishment with the level of satisfaction they derive from it which completely breaks down your argument.

I love how you link self-esteem with the physical self. Nice Freudian slip that matches the depth of your idea, no? Again, you have no evidence to create this demographic profiling but either way and, again, it’s not that hard to achieve real world success. I aced that test with minimal studying. I got a promotion BSing all the reports I did. Oops, that’s so difficult, right? Not to mention that the utility we derive from success is proportional to the effort and time investment required.

Social awkwardness and immaturity, eh? Just moving along with the stereotype, are we? See, this is where we begin to see what your argument actually proves. It proves that it’s much easier to derive a false sense of superiority from posting drivel thinking you’re right than it is to actually have to think about something and being right about it.

Let me ask you a question, what do you think CEOs think when they’re ahead? What do you think successful people think when they’re achieving? Are they prancing around thinking “Oh, how we do love doing well for ourselves” or are they deriving pleasure from dominating other people and winning? Pleasure derived from victory is the lifeblood of champions and victors. How many leaders and winners take pleasure from defeat?

Now, you show your naivete again with the argument that WoW is a business. What is everything in this world? A scheme to extract profit from you and to exploit you the most whichever corporation can. What do you think your workplace does? They’re a business and you’re just a tool for them to exploit profit from. Do you think they pay you what you actually produce? Of course not, they always pay less than you produce in wealth and utility because that is the precise nature of profit.



There is no real-world gain, only loss. The only real-world effect I see from WoW is loss of time, money and far worse the internal compass of what's truly important in life. That's like saying I get real-world gain at casinos. The system wasn't designed for you to profit. It was designed so that the house ultimately wins. WoW was designed so that Blizzard ultimately wins. You might have fun along with all the other players, and profit here and there on some laughs and excitement, but there's more to life than "having fun". People that are immature and have not grown up do not understand this. The real-world gain is not measured in what you can get, but what you can give. WoW is just about what you can get.

The goal is utility and if you gain that, then you’re gaining. Now, it remains a question if WoW creates the most utility from that opportunity cost of time but that’s a question with every activity. Everything in life was designed so someone else wins but with the idea of mutually beneficial relationships in mind. You think going to work is designed to make you win and the corporation? Whenever you purchase a product, work for a company or decide to participate in an activity, it’s always for the sake of another person or entity. That, however, doesn’t preclude you from making it mutually beneficial though.

You've deluded yourself by telling yourself a lie that being addicted to WoW is just normal everyday stuff. It is not, and that is the danger of MMORPGs because they twist your sense of what is real and what is not. They will ultimately overwrite your real-life goals with the in-game quest log, and your real-life sense of identity and happiness with in-game rewards. Be careful of ANY system that does that, not just WoW.

That is the danger of everything in life so stop arguing as if WoW is any different from anything in time that requires a time commitment and maintains an explicit set of rewards and incentives.

By the way, just because WoW is not the only thing out there that can mess people up doesn't mean it's OK. Just because cocaine exists doesn't mean crack is OK. Are there idiots and mentally disturbed people who trip up over the smallest things? Yeah, but that's not the point. You have to look at WoW at what it is, and how it affects your life. Pointing at other things is just a cowards way out.

It doesn’t affect my life. I’m successful and probably have more potential and ability than you ever will so that’s aside from the point. Either way, the argument is whether WoW has anything intrinsic that creates the need for extra precautionary measures or a different viewpoint. It’s the same as any other activity. There are ALWAYS risks and the existence of these risks is not an argument to not participate in activity. If you believe it is, you should quit work and go work on a small plot of land in Montana and end all social interaction immediately.

There are bigger things in life than playing video games, and they have nothing to do with "work" and "social manipulation" either.

People that have no life will never understand, because they are too afraid to find meaning aside from what's presented them in the form of a video game.

Man, I feel bad for you.

Man, I feel bad for you too. Being delusional and naïve creates a world where you’re just asking to be manipulated.

The maximization of utility is the ultimate goal of life. If you define your utility as material utility, the only ways to produce utility are work and social manipulation. If you define as happiness and satisfaction, WoW is an excellent producer of it.

People who don’t comprehend basic economic and decision-making will never understand. The people who try to find meaning in life are those are who are doomed to failure. The world exists the way it does; either you try to win or just get out of my way to the top.

MyJelleo
May 11, 2007, 02:57 AM
I'm going to have to agree with Digidesign. He's my new hero.

bobber205
May 11, 2007, 08:19 AM
I'm going to have to agree with Digidesign. He's my new hero.

Same here. :D

And omg. There's no way I am reading that long winded post from Sauron. :eek:

PlaceofDis
May 11, 2007, 08:25 AM
so... um... twinks... i got one-shotted in the 10-19 bracket last night. i was lvl 18. yeah. i'm glad that blizz is doing something about this.

miller218
May 11, 2007, 08:44 AM
so... um... twinks... i got one-shotted in the 10-19 bracket last night. i was lvl 18. yeah. i'm glad that blizz is doing something about this.

It's the enchants? right?

Solution: there really isn't an easy fix as I see it

1. Set up enchant so they can only be placed on certain lvl gear. OK what about existing enchants?
1.a do an enchant reset like they did with talents (was it 2.0?, I hardly had any at that time). This would lead to MAJOR whining (I spent all that money on the enchants etc). a fix to this would be:
1.a.1 for any enchants undone, you get the mats back in a) your bags, if they're full b) your bank c) the mail. If your gear isn't high enough, get better gear.

2. Do this ranking thing but do it for all levels, not just lvl 70.

There really is something wrong with the mindset of an eternal lvl 19 twink. It's like being 10 years old and being the toughest third grader.

PlaceofDis
May 11, 2007, 08:48 AM
It's the enchants? right?

Solution: there really isn't an easy fix as I see it

1. Set up enchant so they can only be placed on certain lvl gear. OK what about existing enchants?
1.a do an enchant reset like they did with talents (was it 2.0?, I hardly had any at that time). This would lead to MAJOR whining (I spent all that money on the enchats etc). a fix to this would be.

yeah they're killer. but Blizz has already said they're not going to make changes to the pre-Burning Crusade chants, but the new ones are now lvl dependent i believe. so at least they recognize it as a problem. hopefully the gear matching system works. if it doesn't they'll have to take a look at the enchanting for sure.

Swarmlord
May 11, 2007, 09:00 AM
I wasn't aware that there WASN'T a level restriction on enchants. There's a level restriction on what you can apply wizard oil, but you can apply a +100 health to lvl 19 gear? Strange. Sounds like some of you would cough up the gold for nethercobra armor and put it on your twinks if you were allowed.

The thought of playing a low level character and spending time doing pvp makes me nauseous, but I guess a lot of others like it.

It does sound like they need to resolve the problem with high level enchants on low level gear - right after they figure out a way to stop all those gold farmer bots whispering me every 15 minutes! I just had someone try to C.O.D. a sack of flour for 555G the other day. I hope they like getting their accounts banned because I report them all.

miller218
May 11, 2007, 09:37 AM
There are major differences in computer addiction compared to other afflictions.

You could never get away with the trash talking in Real Life that you can in an MMORPG. To use the stamp collecting example someone else used. People don't run around stamp collecting conventions trash talking and yelling "WOOT I got the [Upside Down Airplane Stamp] You all suck! Fortunately there's /ignore in WOW.

The computer won't stop responding to you input until you tell it to shut down. To contrast with a sex addiction, the hooker or your mate is going to leave eventually.

For a musical reference, see Kate Bush's "Deeper Understanding" on 'The Sensual World"

miller218
May 11, 2007, 09:50 AM
I wasn't aware that there WASN'T a level restriction on enchants. There's a level restriction on what you can apply wizard oil, but you can apply a +100 health to lvl 19 gear? Strange. Sounds like some of you would cough up the gold for nethercobra armor and put it on your twinks if you were allowed.

The thought of playing a low level character and spending time doing pvp makes me nauseous, but I guess a lot of others like it.

It does sound like they need to resolve the problem with high level enchants on low level gear - right after they figure out a way to stop all those gold farmer bots whispering me every 15 minutes! I just had someone try to C.O.D. a sack of flour for 555G the other day. I hope they like getting their accounts banned because I report them all.

Sure there is look at this (not to pick on anyone, he's just the first twink I could find), he's not totally maxed out but he has lifestealing (a 300 skill enchant) on a lvl 19 sword

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Spirestone&n=Bubleable


The farmer bot are annoying, but I've never heard of sending an unwanted COD like that, that's just nasty!

merc669
May 11, 2007, 10:22 AM
Folks, things have gotten a bit personal in here. But for the most part, it seems to be a pretty rational conversation. People are certainly allowed to hold differing viewpoints, and discussion of them is encouraged.

Please stick to presenting your side of discussion without resorting to name-calling and personal insults.

Thank-You!!

Bill....:)

Swarmlord
May 11, 2007, 12:18 PM
Sure there is look at this (not to pick on anyone, he's just the first twink I could find), he's not totally maxed out but he has lifestealing (a 300 skill enchant) on a lvl 19 sword

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Spirestone&n=Bubleable


The farmer bot are annoying, but I've never heard of sending an unwanted COD like that, that's just nasty!

No head or cloak enchant? The guy's a nub!

Just kidding. What's that stam/agi pants enchant? I thought that pants only got the libram based bonuses that required a trip to Dire Maul or the one in ZG. At least he can't get the ZG, AD, or Scryer/Aldor shoulder buffs at that level.

Here's my favorite toon, although I am playing my other toons now.

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Dragonblight&n=Bonefinger#character-sheet.xml?r=Dragonblight&n=Bonefinger

Notice that I haven't gotten around to getting enchants on my new weapons or my cloak! I'm so embarrassed! I can't even bring myself to sell my Chromatic Tempered Sword or the DFB that I had before the expansion. As you can see, I've been in BWL a few times.

mwpeters8182
May 11, 2007, 12:31 PM
I guess you must not like playing the MMORPG of life either because that's the precise behavior of people rationalizing their irrational decisions in real life.

It's a game; it should be more fun for people who spend more time and incur more opportunity costs. Not that you know what that is.


Ah, so when you can't attack the argument, you just attack the person. Of course, you know more about what I know than I do. Sorry. I hate to step on your toes here. I'm aware of the concept of opportunity costs, having taken a good deal of economics in college.

I do enjoy life - but I like to play video games occasionally as a way to break things up, to relax. What's the point of having the game be the same thing as the daily grind? When WoW came out, I thought that it was a great idea - let the casual gamer, someone who doesn't want to play for hours on end, get the MMORPG experience. But apparently some people want to just take their ball and go home, rather than let everyone have a good time.

Freyqq
May 16, 2007, 01:33 PM
all this will do is make twinks fight twinks..instead of 1 twink owning everyone. It actually sounds more fun.

fall3n
May 16, 2007, 04:58 PM
i think this is a great system blizzard plans on implementing. Most players are casual gamers and enjoy playing for fun for a couple hours a week, like myself. They don't have time to spend twinking out toons and all that. Blizzard designed this game with the specific intention for people not to have to invest all their spare time in to the game in order to get anywhere or have cool items, which is why it's become such a success. I say well done Blizzard.

As for the people saying your wasting your life, it's just like anything else you do. Many many people go outside and sip coffees while walking around looking for things to buy (aka shopping) and that's what they do in their free time. This could also be viewed as a waste of time as they aren't doing anything productive, however this is what they enjoy doing. As long as you enjoy what you are doing and your perfectly happy so be it. Why does it matter to YOU the critic? Why do you waste your time telling others that they are wasting their time? If time is so precious to you, then you just wasted your time and you didn't even have fun doing it! Let the individual decide whether they feel like they are wasting their time or not.

sam700nf
May 16, 2007, 06:17 PM
In general, to each his own. I don't want to come across saying anyone is wrong in how they play, but I am surprised that those who twink are so bothered by the fact that Blizzard might make them play against other twinks, instead of less- (or un-) equipped players. If you really enjoy watching your twink one-shot other toons, I am sure you will still find a way to do so no matter what Blizzard changes. My 7 year old loves to take a high level rogue into the earlier levels and one-shot mobs. To me, that gets a little tedious.

Personally, I am working hard to save money to build a twink, but only because I am tired of getting killed by them. If my toon were more evenly equipped, then I would at least know I am dying to a better player, not a better enchant.

Since it is baseball season I will use this example, and I think even those arguing in favor of twinking to one-shot others would agree (or not?). I don't think the MLB would be very successful if games were played with a major league team on one side and a 6-year old tee ball team on the other. Any guesses who would win? I mean, a surprise during the game might be a tee baller actually touching the ball. Less extreme example, we don't watch the major league playing the minor league? Why? Because we go to watch groups of the best play each other, not an over matched squad destroying a less skilled team. NOTE: Substitute baseball for basketball, football, soccer, whatever floats your boat.

My point is, I doubt you would make the "twinks killing unskilled players is great" argument or even believe it if you didn't take it so personal. I think twinks show a huge investment of time and devotion to the game. Some might knock that, but it is your choice. I spend too much time playing the game, too, but I admit it (the next day when I have to get up for work).

I also enjoy checking out the armory and seeing who is equipping what (honestly though, most of them are the same). And as stated, I am working on one (or more) myself, but only to compete with others similarly equipped. I just think it would be boring to kill toons over and over in one shot. If Blizzard is making some kind of equalizer, maybe gear based, maybe enchant based, I would support it. I look forward to watching your twink kill my twink the battleground, but at least it won't be in one shot. See you in the game.

Rosman
Jun 16, 2010, 06:13 PM
You can buy BoA gear, for lets say my lvl 19 pally.
I bought the two handed axe, got crusader on it, then bought the BoA shoulders and chest got the best enchants i could get on them. Then went into the pvp hall in orgrimmar. Where the warrior trainer is and the pvp masters are to get que'd for a battle ground the old fashion way. On the left side of the the arena/fort of the pvp hall in the Valley of honor if i remember right, on the far right of org. There is a undead guy that is stealthed in the building on the left side. And you pay only 10gold to stop you're xp so you dont gain anymore xp from anything evven in the Battlegrounds. So you dont level and just kill noobs all day lol Its good fun :D

TheAnswer
Jun 16, 2010, 06:33 PM
Holy thread rez...did you use Goblin Jumper Cables XL (http://www.wowhead.com/item=18587) or Gnomish Army Knife (http://www.wowhead.com/item=40772)?

Also, when you turn off XP...you're only playing against others who have done the same. So you should be competing against other twinks/twinks-in-training and not just pwning n00bs.