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View Full Version : G5 Quake 3 Bechmarks -- the final word?


MrJamie
Jun 25, 2003, 06:07 PM
I've gone around and asked friends and friends of friends with nifty computers to do benchmarks of demo four in quake 3 arena with sound on and off at 640x480x16 and 1024x768x32.

The results exist, staggeringly enough, in incredible support of Apple's benchmarks.

For brevity's sake, I'll only post the highest end PC I got benchmarks from.

-Pentium 4 3.06GHz Overclocked @ 3.6GHz ($500)
-133MHz Frontside Bus Overclocked @ 156MHz
-1GB pc3500 DDR @ cas 2-2-2-5 ($300)
-asus P4C800 Deluxe [on-board gigabit ethernet] ($200)
-GeForce FX 5800 Ultra ($500)
-Two hard Drives:
+Western Digital Raptor Serial ATA 40 GB 10,000rpm (Boot) (free)
+Western Digital Lab Sample Serial ATA 7,200rpm 120 GB (Game) (free)
-IDE DVD-Rom drive [i.e. read only] ($60)
-IDE CD-R/RW drive [48/24/48 sony] ($70)
-logitech elite keyboard ($70)
-ms explorer 3.0 mouse ($50)

total price: $1750 + Case [coolermaster ATC-110] ($150) + power supply ($100) + water cooler ($250) + audigy2 sound card ($120)=
-----
$2390

*notes:
-no floppy. Finally pc users learn! just kiddin ;)
-usb 2.0
-no pci-x
-firewire 400, disabled by user (only 1 usable pci slot 'cuz everything takes up so much space, especially the huge graphics card)



-PowerMac G5 2x2.0GHz
-1GHz frontside Bus
-1GB DDR400 SDRAM [PC3200]
-ATI Radeon 9800 Pro
-160GB Serial ATA 7200rpm
-Combo Drive [CD-RW/DVD-ROM]
-Apple Pro Keyboard
-ms explorer 3.0 mouse ($50)
-----
$3,320

*notes:
-usb 2.0
-pci-x
-firewire 400, firewire 800

on to the FPS:

- Default Config
- Antisopetric Filtering / Anti-Aliasing / etc. disabled

P4 3.6GHz

Normal (640x16)
Sound 299.9 fps
Sound Off 397.0 fps

High Quality (1024x32 with all the sliders/settings maxed)
Sound 297.0 fps
Sound Off 372.8 fps

Apple says:
Power Mac G5 vs. Dell Dimension 8300
640x480x16 - 359 vs. 277
1024x768x32 - 337 vs. 275

Phew. That's the fruit of my research.

Read, be happy, go out and do fun things :)

iJon
Jun 25, 2003, 06:22 PM
well it looks like they were close, im sure that extra 500mhz helped with the fps.

iJon

zimv20
Jun 25, 2003, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by MrJamie

P4 3.6GHz

Normal (640x16)
Sound 299.9 fps
Sound Off 397.0 fps

High Quality (1024x32 with all the sliders/settings maxed)
Sound 297.0 fps
Sound Off 372.8 fps

Apple says:
Power Mac G5 vs. Dell Dimension 8300
640x480x16 - 359 vs. 277
1024x768x32 - 337 vs. 275


sheesh. i'm happy when i break 70. (for online, anyway)

MrMacMan
Jun 25, 2003, 07:53 PM
Um... the Scores on the bottom... With or without sound...?

And since when did sound mean THAT much for Quake? All most 100 Frame difference.

jimthorn
Jun 25, 2003, 08:10 PM
The really surprising thing to me is that Quake 3 is still used for benchmarking. That game engine is how many years old now? (And remember, computer game years are kinda like "dog years"). :)

Freg3000
Jun 25, 2003, 08:14 PM
Cool. Pretty good stuff. :)

P.S. Mr. MacMan: Not funny......:)

iJon
Jun 25, 2003, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by MrMacman
Um... the Scores on the bottom... With or without sound...?

And since when did sound mean THAT much for Quake? All most 100 Frame difference.
sound is a big part of the games. puts a heavy load on the cpu and when sound is off it can increase performace alot. but if you have a decent computer turning off sound is never necessary. quake is apples best bet at getting decent benchmarks. its based on open gl and is apples only chance on getting good fps between a pc and a mac. most games are ports of directx games and they would perform poorly on the mac. im sure quake 3 will be replaced on doom 3 when it comes out. benchmarks should get better too over time because nvidia just hired 5 developers strictly for mac drivers.

iJon

jkojima
Jun 25, 2003, 09:30 PM
Quake benchmarks are becoming a little silly - it is, after all, a 4 year old engine. Can one really perceive a difference between 300fps - 400fps, given that displays typically operate at frequencies of 60-85hz? I realize that because it's universally accepted it makes a good benchmark, but it is now almost irrelevant.

Once the G5s actually ship I would love to see benchmarks done using a newer engine - for example the upcoming Doom 3 engine reportedly makes even top of the line ATI 9800's and nVidia 5900's melt to quite humble 20-30fps speeds on PCs (according to Anad Tech). Perhaps once this game becomes commercially available we will see more realistic performance benchmarks - because at around 30fps, a 10-20% difference actually means something quite significant to the gameplay experience.

This little rant has nothing to do with MrJamie's efforts - I really appreciate his taking the time to do this. I just hope the industry as a whole will soon find a new benchmark.

bertinman
Jun 25, 2003, 09:48 PM
dont mean to bug, but...

when you compare prices, don't forget to include windows (around 250 or 300 can't remembers). also, why are the hard drives free?

i went to frys today to see what the sata drives cost.. $189 for 32 gigs! prob a rip off, but can't be too far off.

(I am trying to think of reasons the price isn't too bad, and this is mostly for my own benefit! :))
- bert

ZildjianKX
Jun 25, 2003, 09:54 PM
Your PC prices are WAY overpriced... and for the people saying that windows XP is $300... you can get XP Pro FULL for $130 OEM.

The Mac benchmarks are still whacked... just wait until the G5s come out 2 months from now and are benchmarked against Intel's latest.

ZildjianKX
Jun 25, 2003, 09:55 PM
Originally posted by bertinman
i went to frys today to see what the sata drives cost.. $189 for 32 gigs! prob a rip off, but can't be too far off.

Actually $189.99 is way far off. You're looking at a 10,000 RPM Western Digital Raptor Drive man... Apple doesn't use those. However, I just bought that exact same drive yesterday online for $139.99 OEM with free shipping and no tax.

zimv20
Jun 25, 2003, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by ZildjianKX
you can get XP Pro FULL for $130 OEM.


where?

Frohickey
Jun 25, 2003, 10:33 PM
Isn't Quake3, Mac OS 9 based?!!!!!

iJon
Jun 25, 2003, 10:34 PM
cheapest i can find is 207. i see a lot of people compare apples payed upgrades to windows service packs. service packs dont add anything new. i installed windows xp service pack 1and nothing happened, all i knew is court ordered them to come out with it so you use netscape and stuff like that. i feel apple is actually doig something and each upgrade is worth every penny, although i do agree apple should allow discounts to people who saved there coupons from jaguar.

iJon

MrJamie
Jun 25, 2003, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by ZildjianKX
Your PC prices are WAY overpriced... and for the people saying that windows XP is $300... you can get XP Pro FULL for $130 OEM.

links to cheaper, equal quality hardware please, or I'm going to disregard this.

bertinman
Jun 26, 2003, 01:33 AM
well, the specs for the p4 DID have a 10k rpm sata didn't it? plus a 7.2k.

PLUS, i don't care about the os price really, just wanted it included--the hard drive costs as well. this comparison might make someone say, "oh, p4s are cheaper by allot ill print this list out and go buy these parts" and be pretty upset that two sata hard drives are NOT free--i have yet to see an explanation for the free, maybe im blind (which is almost true in reality...).

another side note, a dvdrom and a cd burner doesn't add up in price to a dvd burner.

and a price to lower would be the CPU, put it to 400, newegg.com sells for 360 about and they tend to be about 10% lower than average prices on cpus.

this is getting to the pettiness level already, so im stopping.

- bert

bertinman
Jun 26, 2003, 01:41 AM
also, go to frys and you will see winxp pro for 299.99, check outpost.com.

its not oem because the average person buys a computer from a physical store like frys and they will buy xp there as well, in a box that costs a whole 150 dollars more than a shrinkwrap oem bundle.

final from, really.

- bert

zimv20
Jun 26, 2003, 02:00 AM
Originally posted by Frohickey
Isn't Quake3, Mac OS 9 based?!!!!!

there's a downloadable osx version.

ZildjianKX
Jun 26, 2003, 02:46 AM
Originally posted by MrJamie
links to cheaper, equal quality hardware please, or I'm going to disregard this.

Jeez, just check out ANY online prices, or I'm going to disregard and ignore your whole post since you should know this if you know anything about computers.

Example... you list a P4 3.06 GHz (With the wrong FSB btw, should be 533 MHz FSB) for $500... that's a joke.

The more expensive and better 3.0 GHz 800 MHz FSB is only $400 RETAIL.
http://www.googlegear.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=80661

The list goes on from there.

Top of the line Lite-On 52x24x52 CD-RW costs $48 retail with Nero.

Intellimouse Explorer 3.0a Costs $30 OEM.

You only need PC 3200 RAM in a stock 3.0 GHz, so you can knock the RAM price to about $200.

If you're comparing price to price, a Radeon 9800 Pro 128 MB costs $350 retail for PC.

There isn't a 40 gig raptor, but the 36.7 gig goes for $139.99.

And for those saying that you can't get Windows XP Pro for under $150... http://www.ateck.com/viewitem.asp?idproduct=453054843 $133.48 with free shipping.

zimv20
Jun 26, 2003, 02:59 AM
Originally posted by ZildjianKX

And for those saying that you can't get Windows XP Pro for under $150... http://www.ateck.com/viewitem.asp?idproduct=453054843 $133.48 with free shipping.

from the product description on that page:

Must be purchased with hardware


because ateck is selling it w/o the h/w, i wonder if it's a grey market item and what MS would have to say about it.

xp pro sold on its own -- w/o that label -- goes for close to $300. that price discrepancy alone makes one curious about the legality.

G3-Pwnz-G4
Jun 26, 2003, 03:24 AM
*edit*

nvm, i need to start reading the other posts first[/edit]

but yea, what ijon said. apple wouldn't overclock the competition.

tho it is kinda sad that 540mhz boost only gave extra 20fps...

daRAT
Jun 26, 2003, 06:32 AM
133 mhz front side bus?

Get real, even a 500$ out of the box pc has a 400mhz.

my 1500$ gateway is 533mhz

esshh

MrJamie
Jun 26, 2003, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by daRAT
133 mhz front side bus?

Get real, even a 500$ out of the box pc has a 400mhz.

my 1500$ gateway is 533mhz

esshh

ahem, 133 bus quad pumped. Common man, everyone should know that about pentium four processors by now.

hvfsl
Jun 26, 2003, 08:01 AM
I would be interested if they ported 3Dmark to the Mac, since more people use that now. Quake 3 is no longer a really good benchmark to use for gaming performance as the bus now makes the most difference. What I want to see is UT2003, especially the 64bit update that will be avaliable soon. If it gets a good score I will be able to get a G5 and play UT2003 in 5.1 sound on a Mac and stop using my PC for it.

ZildjianKX
Jun 26, 2003, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by zimv20
from the product description on that page:


because ateck is selling it w/o the h/w, i wonder if it's a grey market item and what MS would have to say about it.

xp pro sold on its own -- w/o that label -- goes for close to $300. that price discrepancy alone makes one curious about the legality.

OMG... I'm starting to hate this Mac forum... do you guys know what OEM is? Original Equipment Manufacturer... it means this is the CD that is suppose to be sold to say Dell and Compaq... doesn't have the pretty box, etc. Microsoft has a contract with hardware vendors that anything that is Microsoft and OEM has to be sold with hardware... that's why most places throw in a free cable to meet this part of the contract. Just like
http://www.googlegear.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=604631
does if you go through the checkout process...

I swear, it would actually do some of you some good to go out and build your own PC sometime.

altivec 2003
Jun 26, 2003, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by ZildjianKX
OMG... I'm starting to hate this Mac forum... do you guys know what OEM is? Original Equipment Manufacturer... it means this is the CD that is suppose to be sold to say Dell and Compaq... doesn't have the pretty box, etc. Microsoft has a contract with hardware vendors that anything that is Microsoft and OEM has to be sold with hardware... that's why most places throw in a free cable to meet this part of the contract. Just like
http://www.googlegear.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=604631
does if you go through the checkout process...

I swear, it would actually do some of you some good to go out and build your own PC sometime.

Dude, chill out!

I think what he Meant is that it would be legal for the guy to just sell it claiming that he is a hardware vendor. Don't you have to have some special liscense. Well anyhoo, 300 is the real price for windows even if you can find a cheap $130 oem on the internet.

In fact, i think we all kinda got a little off topic talking about how much windows costs. This thread is really about fact that apple's benchmarks might not, infact, be screwy and the g5 might turn out to be a great gaming machine. For the record, i think this forum is great and I personally dislike it when somebody says otherwise on the account of a few individuals. Even those individuals deserve more respect than you have given them. I also think that Arn deserves recognition for creating a forum where there is no obscene content unlike some other forums I can think of. Hey, if you really hate these boards leave, but these aren't for pointless hate. They are for learning and entertainment, unless I am mistaken.

Jookbox
Jun 26, 2003, 11:40 AM
dont worry about it zildjian. about 80% of the people that post here don't know crap about computers. you'd be surprised how many people here still believe windows is unstable.

altivec 2003
Jun 26, 2003, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by Jookbox
dont worry about it zildjian. about 80% of the people that post here don't know crap about computers. you'd be surprised how many people here still believe windows is unstable.

In addition to what i wrote above, people shouldn't be considered as not knowing crap about computers or be discriminated against as such. Sure we might not be gurus on peecees and their PRICES, but this is a mac forum, and i am sure that you could find people that know way more than you do. So, please don't talk bad about the forum members and have a nice day :) (sorry if that sounded a little mean, but really....)

edit:

Ok for something on topic, I am glad to hear about this good perfomance. My computer really sux for gaming mainly becuase i have a ati rage pro 128 with 16 megs of graphics memory. My chip isn't that great either (533g4) :(. I hope to get a new graphics card for my birthday which is tomorrow :)

Schiffi
Jun 26, 2003, 12:15 PM
lol, I'd like to see some original DOOM bechmarks. That'd be a sight to see.

OT: I've heard somewhere that the G5's will be OS9 bootable again, is this true?

altivec 2003
Jun 26, 2003, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Schiffi
lol, I'd like to see some original DOOM bechmarks. That'd be a sight to see.

OT: I've heard somewhere that the G5's will be OS9 bootable again, is this true?

I really doubt that Apple would have gone and made the g5s OS9 bootable right after they just announced that they would only boot into OSX. I certainly wouldn't be unhappy if they did cause i still have software that will only run in OS9 (Connectix vgs) and software that is crappy in classic emulation (rebirth, etc). My dad would be really happy cause he doesn't have many OSX applications for his work besides a new version of matlab which he just got. He does not currently use OSX and is reluctant to go through the task of switching to a new OS despite how good it is.

iJon
Jun 26, 2003, 12:34 PM
man, all i know is i have seen a alot of new members posting on the boards lately ever since the g5 come out, and alot of them are defending pc's. we all know you can go build a pc that is cheaper than apple's we all know that. but it doesnt come with any support, which is what most consumers need. i built my computer, so i know how to fix whats wrong, but most people i know wouldnt know where to start if there computer broke. so building a pc you are loosing that support, because you dont know if you need to call asus, microsoft, creative, seagate, kingston, intel or anyone. on another note, i would like to see 3d mark ported to mac os x, that really tells us how these machines perform with the windows world.

iJon

job
Jun 26, 2003, 12:42 PM
i'd like to see some doom3 frame rates on the dual-2Ghz monster.

lets all make fun of the alienware towers.... ;)

job
Jun 26, 2003, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by iJon
on another note, i would like to see 3d mark ported to mac os x, that really tells us how these machines perform with the windows world.

that would be interesting, but isn't 3d mark based on DX? or does it run on openGL as well?

iJon
Jun 26, 2003, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by job
that would be interesting, but isn't 3d mark based on DX? or does it run on openGL as well?
yeah i forgot abotu it, it is dx. hell i dont even care how the mac performs with fps, we dont have enough games to justify it for a gaming machine.

iJon

zimv20
Jun 26, 2003, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by ZildjianKX
OMG... I'm starting to hate this Mac forum... do you guys know what OEM is? Original Equipment Manufacturer... it means this is the CD that is suppose to be sold to say Dell and Compaq... doesn't have the pretty box, etc. Microsoft has a contract with hardware vendors that anything that is Microsoft and OEM has to be sold with hardware... that's why most places throw in a free cable to meet this part of the contract. Just like
http://www.googlegear.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=604631
does if you go through the checkout process...

I swear, it would actually do some of you some good to go out and build your own PC sometime.

please accept my apologies for being such a ********** idiot.

:rolleyes:

you are my new knowledge guru. i would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

fourthtunz
Jun 26, 2003, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by ZildjianKX

I swear, it would actually do some of you some good to go out and build your own PC sometime.

Huh?:confused:
I guess learning is always good, but I'd rather watch my mac defrag than support Microslut.:cool:
daniel

iJon
Jun 26, 2003, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by fourthtunz
Huh?:confused:
I guess learning is always good, but I'd rather watch my mac defrag than support Microslut.:cool:
daniel
at least microslut has games to play.

iJon

ZildjianKX
Jun 26, 2003, 03:27 PM
Sorry if Iwas rude. Its really hard to compare Macs and PCs... if you go bleeding edge on both, then you're pretty much going to pay out the butt... Its just a lot easier to get a reasonably priced midranged computer than a mac unfortunately.

I just hope Apple didn't fudge their benchmarks... or its going to look really bad for them later.

Peace.

job
Jun 26, 2003, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by iJon
at least microslut has games to play.

i don't think the games situation with the mac is as bad as it was in '97~'99.

we have the hardware now. the triple-a games are coming to the mac, which is very different from the late 90s.

besides, not everything about a computer is about games. ;) :p

Dont Hurt Me
Jun 26, 2003, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by job
i don't think the games situation with the mac is as bad as it was in '97~'99.

we have the hardware now. the triple-a games are coming to the mac, which is very different from the late 90s.

besides, not everything about a computer is about games. ;) :p true , and not only that i would like to see Doom3 on a dual,1.8,1.6 and pentium 4 3.06 gig. Ut2003 also ....come on apple step up to the plate.

Flowbee
Jun 26, 2003, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by ZildjianKX
I swear, it would actually do some of you some good to go out and build your own PC sometime.

People have been known to lead perfectly happy lives without knowing how to build a PC or what OEM means. I think most people's time would be better spent reading Proust or taking up jogging.

:rolleyes:

fourthtunz
Jun 26, 2003, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by iJon
at least microslut has games to play.

iJon

So you can build your Pc, and play games, and I'll watch my Macs drive defrag :D
Or I'll make some music or video.
But I won't do anything to support the least innovative company in computing
:mad:
daniel

fourthtunz
Jun 26, 2003, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by ZildjianKX

I just hope Apple didn't fudge their benchmarks
Peace.

But what would happen if they did? Most Mac users will buy one because of the OS anyway, if it's faster so much the better:D
daniel

iJon
Jun 26, 2003, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by fourthtunz
So you can build your Pc, and play games, and I'll watch my Macs drive defrag :D
Or I'll make some music or video.
But I won't do anything to support the least innovative company in computing
:mad:
daniel
cool, ill make some music and video too while i play games because my dual 1.25 is right next to my gaming machine. i dont care whose operating system it is, i use which has the games, and at the moment its not apple.

iJon

fourthtunz
Jun 26, 2003, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by iJon
. i dont care whose operating system it is, i use which has the games, and at the moment its not apple.

iJon

Ok, the way MS does business DOES bother me and evidently the Justice department too. Maybe there would be more games if MS played a little more fair:confused:
From what I understand, games are available for the Mac.
But I don't have time for them anyway, remember?
I'm watching my Mac defrag:D
daniel

iJon
Jun 26, 2003, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by fourthtunz
Ok, the way MS does business DOES bother me and evidently the Justice department too. Maybe there would be more games if MS played a little more fair:confused:
From what I understand, games are available for the Mac.
But I don't have time for them anyway, remember?
I'm watching my Mac defrag:D
daniel
isnt it the developers not wanting to support apple, instead of microsoft.

iJon

fourthtunz
Jun 26, 2003, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by iJon
isnt it the developers not wanting to support apple, instead of microsoft.

iJon

Exactly,but how did it get this way? All the good stuff started On the Mac right? Or Atari,or Amiga.
15 years ago what could you do on a pc compared to the Mac?
There is a reason for the lawsuit against MS.
Apple does not exist in a vacuum.
daniel

Maclarny
Jun 26, 2003, 08:10 PM
Forget about building a PC buy a frigging console...

Xbox - $179.99
Gamecube - $149.99
Playstation 2 - $179.99

MrMacMan
Jun 26, 2003, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by job
i don't think the games situation with the mac is as bad as it was in '97~'99.

we have the hardware now. the triple-a games are coming to the mac, which is very different from the late 90s.

besides, not everything about a computer is about games. ;) :p

Seriously, gaming for the mac, IS getting better, devolpers will just take the mac more seriously then before with the release of the G5.

Chill iJon, it doesn't have every game I want, but every category is met.

couch potato
Jun 28, 2003, 03:06 AM
Originally posted by Jookbox
dont worry about it zildjian. about 80% of the people that post here don't know crap about computers. you'd be surprised how many people here still believe windows is unstable.

operating systems aren't technically stable or unstable. It just matters as to whether is locks up on someone, its not a fact. yeah, mac OS X is extremely stable, but its still liable to crash 0.1% of the time:D

windows isnt completely unstable, but it does have stability issues.:rolleyes:

Mav451
Jul 1, 2003, 11:29 PM
i think the difference is that Mac's do have the better OS-- i'm not questioning that.

However, PC's are better for bleeding edge technology--if that's your thing --simply b/c PC's have a much wider variety of manufacturers developing hardware/software for them.

This is the very same reason that PC's tend to cost ALOT less -- simple b/c the technology moves so fast that only the newest will cost a premium (i.e. wait 2-3 months and the "new stuff" is almost half-price).

I'd really like to try OS X--i guess the only option right now for me is to go borrow my friend's Imac :)

On games being ported...i know blizzard has been faithful -- the funny thing is, as a pc user, i have only really played blizzard games so i guess i woulnd' thave mattered if i was a pc or mac user anyway :) haha...the irony.

fourthtunz
Jul 1, 2003, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by Mav451
i think the difference is that Mac's do have the better OS-- i'm not questioning that.

However, PC's are better for bleeding edge technology--if that's your thing --simply b/c PC's have a much wider variety of manufacturers developing hardware/software for them.

This is the very same reason that PC's tend to cost ALOT less -- simple b/c the technology moves so fast that only the newest will cost a premium (i.e. wait 2-3 months and the "new stuff" is almost half-price).

I'd really like to try OS X--i guess the only option right now for me is to go borrow my friend's Imac :)

.

Pcs may have some of the bleeding edge tech, but quite a bit comes from the mac,amazing when you consider how small apple is.
If you haven't tried OSX on a new Mac with its included software I can see why PC users think a Mac is overpriced. I bought a new Emac for $1300 with a dvd burner and its a great package, you can do full productions in it, and I have been in front of my televison. I was looking a some expensive PCs this week that cost more than a Mac, and it came with crap software and with built in firewire that didn't work well enough to capture video.
I wonder how many pcs users drive suv's and cry about the price of a Mac? Silly.
daniel

Mav451
Jul 2, 2003, 12:15 AM
i would think that it's the otherway around.

The very hypertransport that Mac touts is made by AMD, not Mac.

PCI-X has been in opteron boxes since june.

I build my OWN computers that cost less than 400bucks for each upgrade cycle.

Take for example my current configuration. I decided to swap out my old Asus A7V mobo based on the aging via kt133 technology, to be replaced by the more common Nforce2 motherboard of today.

a7n8x cost 114 bucks at the time of the purchase. The cpu upgrade cost 87 bucks, the ram was 84 bucks total, and the 185.5 GB hard drive was 160 bucks.

Total: $446 (all bought from NewEgg.com)

I prefer to catch technology at the back end, saving me well over 50% of what i would be spending at the time of its initial release.
I am not an exorbitant spender. I prefer to get the best value for my money. I'm not saying that what i have is better than macs. it simply fits my budget better (400 buck upgrade every 3 years).

Oh and lastly, i drive a civic.

iJon
Jul 2, 2003, 12:32 AM
opteron is a server based machine. the powermac is probably the first desktop machine under 3000 to have pci -x, 64 bit, and so on and so on. correct me if im wrong.

iJon

Mav451
Jul 2, 2003, 12:37 AM
well opteron has 1,2,4-way options.

i mention 1-way b/c computer have generally been considered desktop systems when only one processor is used...however macs have been using dual cpu's for quite a while.

Yes the opteron was designed as a server chip. But the opteron is essentially what the athlon 64 will be in the fall (minus some things here and there)-- so opteron CAN be kinda of an between. I'm not even sure where to define the mac b/c it has dual processors -- and has had that since the g4 days (which goes back to when the p4 williamette's were just released).

I consider the Mac server chip b/c it has many technologies that the opteron is ALSO using (HT, pci-x, 64bit, etc.)...but the mac is the first one to be MARKETED to the public as a desktop. Mac's also dont' distinguish between server boards/desktop boards...kind of all in one package :)

iJon
Jul 2, 2003, 12:39 AM
but answer this, how much does a dual opteron cost compared to the dual g5?

iJon

Mav451
Jul 2, 2003, 12:42 AM
yes in that case you are right. In no right mind would i buy an opteron box unless i was using it for a server.

point taken *_*

iJon
Jul 2, 2003, 12:48 AM
Originally posted by Mav451
yes in that case you are right. In no right mind would i buy an opteron box unless i was using it for a server.

point taken *_*
i wasnt trying to shut you out, i was just curious. thanks for the info.

iJon

iJon
Jul 2, 2003, 01:06 AM
Originally posted by fourthtunz

I wonder how many pcs users drive suv's and cry about the price of a Mac? Silly.
daniel
that has to be one of the dumbest things ive heard. i have lots of friends who drive suv's and cant afford a mac. if you think everyone who drives and suv is rich than you are stupid.

iJon

snaggs
Jul 2, 2003, 05:17 AM
if you think everyone who drives and suv is rich than you are stupid.



You must be American ?

Cubeboy
Jul 2, 2003, 06:40 AM
Interesting thread, Barefeats recently (June 28) performed the Quake III demo 4 benchmark in 1024x768 resolution and 640x480 resolution, default settings, with sound enabled and turned to high quality, and no console tweaks. The test system used a 3.00 GHz Pentium 4c (800 MHz FSB), Dual Channel DDR-400 and had a Radeon 9700 (Pro?) video card. Despite having a older video card (in comparison to the Radeon 9800 Pro used by Apple), the Pentium 4 did significantly better, scoring 30 FPS higher than Apple's Pentium 4 system.

Cubeboy
Jul 2, 2003, 06:51 AM
Originally posted by iJon
but answer this, how much does a dual opteron cost compared to the dual g5?

iJon

Around $2600 for a dual 1.4 GHz Opteron workstation with 1 GB RAM, Quadro FX500 video card, and 120 gig hard-drive, around $3600 for a dual 1.8 GHz/1.6 GHz Opteron workstation with the same specifications. I suspect that only the 1.6/1.8 GHz models can compete against a Dual 2 GHz G5 so we've still got the best price/performance if not also the performance crown. Oh well, time well tell.

Abstract
Jul 2, 2003, 06:53 AM
Didn't even read the 2nd page of this thread, but its nice to see another Mac vs. PC benchmark thread that gives us different values. Its difficult to get the hardware EXACTLY equal or comparable. Lets just say that they're both fast. 300fps is fast....DAMN fast. It doesn't matter anymore, whether the PC is overclocked to 3.6GHz or whatever. Plus the fact that Quake 3 is still being used makes the comparison quite unnecessary right now. Wait for the new Doom game.

fourthtunz
Jul 2, 2003, 08:15 AM
Originally posted by iJon
that has to be one of the dumbest things ive heard. i have lots of friends who drive suv's and cant afford a mac. if you think everyone who drives and suv is rich than you are stupid.

iJon

Do you feel better now? Easy, don't forget to breath:-)
How many times have you heard, I can build my own pcceee for so much less? I was just wondering why a $3000 computer gets people worked up? We're not talking alot of money here!!?
How many people cry about the Mac prices but drive expensive suvs, which most cost more to buy and more to drive?
Maybe if your friends bought a civic that got better mileage they could afford a mac
:D
daniel

fourthtunz
Jul 2, 2003, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by Mav451
i would think that it's the otherway around.

The very hypertransport that Mac touts is made by AMD, not Mac.

PCI-X has been in opteron boxes since june.

I build my OWN computers that cost less than 400bucks for each upgrade cycle.

(400 buck upgrade every 3 years).

Oh and lastly, i drive a civic.

Oh I didn't say that there weren't other companies inovating, just that apple does well for its size. The Ipod,firewire,usb(an intel implementation of apple tech)among many others. But you focus just on hardware, the os and the included software for imaging,video and such is very good. I use my Macs to make my living with clients in the room, so they have to work and they do.
I am aware that you can build a cheap pc but that has nothing to do with getting work done. The real test for a computer is when you starting adding internal and external hardware like Digidesign, avid or firewire gear. Out of the box the Mac is ready to go to work and when you make your living off them, it matters.
If you are carefull you can sell and buy Macs every 6 months or so and lose only$150 , they hold their value so well.
I love hondas! We just sold our civic to get my wife an accord, nice car! I have a 93 corolla wagon, so I'm not rich either
:)
daniel

yzedf
Jul 2, 2003, 09:45 AM
Q3A is a lame benchmark. Computers are fast enough now that the limiting factor is the video card and it's drivers. As others have noted, anything over 100fps is useless, as that is faster then the refresh rate on your monitor. Would be nice to see numbers for the 2 machines, on the same 1600*1200 monitor, with everything cranked to the max. 640*480 is just a lame attempt to show a big number. 1024*768 is only used on lower end machines now (like my 4 yr old laptop). What is the point of these benchmarks of the latest and greatest machinery, and then run the numbers at 1 unused resolution, and the 2nd at what is now the defacto bare minimum of any new desktop sold today?

UT2k3, or DOOM3 when it shows up, those will be better benchmark games.

macrumors12345
Jul 2, 2003, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by Jookbox
you'd be surprised how many people here still believe windows is unstable.

No doubt you meant to say "isn't." Typos - I understand. ;-)

But seriously, XP/2k/NT are a serious improvement over the 9x series, but still have a ways to go. Unless you want to tell my friend that the data corruption issues (which unfortunately have led to a large loss of data) that plague her WinXP Sony laptop are a figment of her imagination (the hardware is fine - it's an OS problem).

macrumors12345
Jul 2, 2003, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by iJon
that has to be one of the dumbest things ive heard. i have lots of friends who drive suv's and cant afford a mac. if you think everyone who drives and suv is rich than you are stupid.

iJon

What??

You can buy a Mac for $799 (I wouldn't really say it's a good Mac, but you said "can't afford a Mac," not "can't afford a good Mac."). Where on earth can you buy an SUV for $799 or less? Yeesh.

Mav451
Jul 2, 2003, 10:38 AM
You will always hear about people saying they can build their PC's for less because it is a fact. You cannot order Mac hardware from anywhere else except Apple.

With no competition in retailers of Apple hardware, prices do not go down as fast as they would in the PC world.

I am SURE that if Apple users were given the option of assembling the PowerMac by themselves (i.e. several enthusiast sites selling similar hardware) that the parts would be much cheaper.

If you want the G5, you can't just buy the motherboard, processor, and case by itself. Apple will only sell it to you as a package.

Many PC retailers consistently drive up costs of pre-built PC's--that is why Alienware/Falcon northwest have ridiculous pricing for computers, when self-built would be hundreds if not thousands less--that's why websites like NewEgg.com, gameve.com, and googlegear.com exist--to provide cheaper alternatives.

fourthtunz
Jul 2, 2003, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by Mav451
You will always hear about people saying they can build their PC's for less because it is a fact.

I am SURE that if Apple users were given the option of assembling the PowerMac by themselves (i.e. several enthusiast sites selling similar hardware) that the parts would be much cheaper.



Yes, We know that you can build a PC for less,but this is not news to anyone:eek: We've heard it many times before.
For many mac people it is about the Mac as a whole not just the hardware. I'm sure some would build a Mac if they could.
You can upgrade even a 7 or 8 year old mac and have a fast machine for not too much, if you wanted to.
I think most people don't want to build a computer and could not get it to work in a real work environment if they could.
Do you own or use a new Mac? This might change your views.
You can buy an imac for $799, why build a machine at those prices?
daniel

Mav451
Jul 2, 2003, 11:06 AM
But what i'm saying is that if Apple users were given an option to buy the G5 system from an alternate retailer--would it make the powermac in general cheaper to afford? Competition drives down prices but there is no direct apple-apple competition.

Now I realize most of the world is not tech-savvy...that is why so many people buy computers in a box: both mac and PC.

I'm just offering the thought of the possibility of having alternative retailers for apple hardware--though alot of users already like the centralized nature of a single company providing for all their needs.

I'm saying this because about 10 years ago, when 75mhz 486's were "fast" - it cost my family nearly 4,000dollars to buy it. Back then there was no internet--no other option then buying it from expensive retailers (i.e. in store or through catalogs).

allpar
Jul 2, 2003, 11:34 AM
OK...

PC - cheaper, easier to upgrade.
Mac - easier to use, more reliable, better resale value.

Upgrading your PC by swapping motherbaords is great - but selling a Mac nets good $$$.

Now...

How about a benchmark of the 1.6 GHz G5? Anyone? They MUST be out there. I'm really considerig saving $300 and getting a dual G4 with 9-booting.

iJon
Jul 2, 2003, 05:48 PM
my point still stands. im saying just because what car you drive doenst me what you can and cant afford in mac terms. my friends suv's they drive are used and its what there parents bought them. some people dont buy macs because the extra price doesnt justify it over a pc that you can build for 500 dollars, or hell, compaq sells a nice machine for about that much. all im saying in the teenager world, what car you drive doesnt mean jack**** about money. now i can understand an adult driving a 2003 suburban or an x5, but still that doesnt mean they are rich. they can be paying it off and cant afford a nice mac at the time.

iJon

fourthtunz
Jul 2, 2003, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by iJon
my point still stands. im saying just because what car you drive doenst me what you can and cant afford in mac terms. my friends suv's they drive are used and its what there parents bought them. some people dont buy macs because the extra price doesnt justify it over a pc that you can build for 500 dollars, or hell, compaq sells a nice machine for about that much. all im saying in the teenager world, what car you drive doesnt mean jack**** about money. now i can understand an adult driving a 2003 suburban or an x5, but still that doesnt mean they are rich. they can be paying it off and cant afford a nice mac at the time.

iJon

You missed my point. I'm talking about the people who actually pay for the cars and computers. The "teen world" is not the real world. I didn't mean to start a class war. I'm just saying $3000 for a Mac isn't the end of the world. I don't understand why someone who can't afford a mac or doesn't like them would come to a Mac site, I don't go to pc sites.
Hey I guess we all have to vent somewhere, peace
daniel:)

iJon
Jul 2, 2003, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by fourthtunz
You missed my point. I'm talking about the people who actually pay for the cars and computers. The "teen world" is not the real world. I didn't mean to start a class war. I'm just saying $3000 for a Mac isn't the end of the world. I don't understand why someone who can't afford a mac or doesn't like them would come to a Mac site, I don't go to pc sites.
Hey I guess we all have to vent somewhere, peace
daniel:)
ok good we cleared it up. just wanted to make sure we were on the same page.

iJon

daveg5
Jul 2, 2003, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by Mav451
i would think that it's the otherway around.

The very hypertransport that Mac touts is made by AMD, not Mac.

PCI-X has been in opteron boxes since june.

I build my OWN computers that cost less than 400bucks for each upgrade cycle.

Take for example my current configuration. I decided to swap out my old Asus A7V mobo based on the aging via kt133 technology, to be replaced by the more common Nforce2 motherboard of today.

how much to build me one?
a7n8x cost 114 bucks at the time of the purchase. The cpu upgrade cost 87 bucks, the ram was 84 bucks total, and the 185.5 GB hard drive was 160 bucks.

Total: $446 (all bought from NewEgg.com)

I prefer to catch technology at the back end, saving me well over 50% of what i would be spending at the time of its initial release.
I am not an exorbitant spender. I prefer to get the best value for my money. I'm not saying that what i have is better than macs. it simply fits my budget better (400 buck upgrade every 3 years).

Oh and lastly, i drive a civic.

daveg5
Jul 2, 2003, 07:31 PM
how much to build me one

daveg5
Jul 2, 2003, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by Cubeboy
Around $2600 for a dual 1.4 GHz Opteron workstation with 1 GB RAM, Quadro FX500 video card, and 120 gig hard-drive, around $3600 for a dual 1.8 GHz/1.6 GHz Opteron workstation with the same specifications. I suspect that only the 1.6/1.8 GHz models can compete against a Dual 2 GHz G5 so we've still got the best price/performance if not also the performance crown. Oh well, time well tell.
are these build yourself or a name brand cpu maker

fourthtunz
Jul 2, 2003, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by allpar
OK...

How about a benchmark of the 1.6 GHz G5? Anyone? They MUST be out there. I'm really considerig saving $300 and getting a dual G4 with 9-booting.

I know you may not believe apples benchmarks, but lets say they are not that far off, looks like even the cheapie will be a good amount faster than the old Macs in all tasks. What do you have for a mac now, and what do you do with it?
I'm doing audio,video and imaging, I may keep what I have and get the cheapie and sell that when the next rev comes out in Dec.
I like having 2 or 3 machines. Thats way faster than one really fast one!
daniel