PC3200... Should it be feared?

[TheOne]

The new Ram Apple has decided to use is no doubt both fast and expensive. However, I have yet to find a retailer with a 2gig set...

Does anyone think that the new Ram Apple has decided to use is a mistake, or is it just the Ram is too new for anyone to really have it in stock since not really anything uses it... I really want the G5, but I don't want to get into another situation as I am with my 1st generation Pentium 4 box that uses Rambus Ram. (Rambus is evil expensive ram that's sometimes hard to find and is kind of simular to the DDR 400 since you have to upgrade in pairs) I mean, one day it would be nice to upgrade my Ram without having to break the bank...

Am I wrong to worry about the G5's ram? :(

[BernieC]

Yeah, 2GB PC3200 RAM is quite rare, right now. It'll get better. The only one I found on Pricewatch.com was for $1099. Yikes.

The last stick of RAM I bought was a PC2700 512MB stick for $90. Considerably cheaper.

[patrick0brien]

-TheOne

Demand will cause supply in this case. Unfortunately, Apple is the first large-volume producer that will need this RAM, so it'll be expensive at the start. Personally, I'm waiting for the G6 (Power5-based PPC 980). By then the market saturation should be farther along and I get to leapfrog even the G5. :D

[DVDSP]

Originally posted by BernieC
Yeah, 2GB PC3200 RAM is quite rare, right now. It'll get better. The only one I found on Pricewatch.com was for $1099. Yikes.

Pricewatch is listing 1GB PC3200 at $165. I think that is what you would want, not the 2GB. I don't know if the G5s even support 2GB RAM.

According the the Apple Store if you max out the RAM you get "8 x 1GB [add $3750]". So $1320 at Pricewatch would be quite a bargain.

[BernieC]

Originally posted by DVDSP
Pricewatch is listing 1GB PC3200 at $165. I think that is what you would want, not the 2GB. I don't know if the G5s even support 2GB RAM.

Whoops. That's my mistake. I have to get out of thinking that the G5s only have 4 RAM slots like my MDD. So, 8GB of RAM at those prices wouldn't be too bad.

[shadowfax]

i figure the apple PC3200 RAM, you will find, will be very expensive. almost 4000$ for the full 8 GB alone. those pricewatch things you are looking at are all 2x512 MB modules. you'll put 4 GB in and have 4 GB of modules to look at, maybe put in a fish tank or something. the 8 GB is going to be EXPENSIVE for some time to come. and i would hazard a guess that when the 2 GB modules do come out, i really don't think they are now, they will be supported on the PM G5. the way they are addressing ram, any increase can probably be accomodated by a firmware update. the procs' addressing capabilities support up to like half a terrabyte of RAM.

[benixau]

Pairs Pairs Pairs

RAM Must go in as a pair.

If you want to add 1GB to it you have to add 2x512MB RAM to each side in the mirrored position.

here is what i mean:
from (256 factory)

----
----
----
128 (apple)

128 (apple)
----
----
----

to (1280 factory + user)

----
----
512 (your RAM)
128 (apple)

128 (apple)
512 (your RAM)
----
----

So if you buy 2x1GB @ $165 Each then you will be adding 2GB of RAM to your G5 at a very good price.

[Sun Baked]

At least not this 2GB stick on Pricewatch, this was Reg. ECC memory.

If AMDs Athalon64 consumer desktop is running the same memory as Apple, there may be a little more pressure for people to offer the larger modules.

Not a real market for the 2 & 4GB modules for the 32-bit crowd when the machines hit a brick wall at 4GB.

[benixau]

Originally posted by Sun Baked
At least not this 2GB stick on Pricewatch, this was Reg. ECC memory.

If AMDs Athalon64 consumer desktop is running the same memory as Apple, there may be a little more pressure for people to offer the larger modules.

Not a real market for the 2 & 4GB modules for the 32-bit crowd when the machines hit a brick wall at 4GB.

Most computers have only two or three RAM slots these days. A 2GB module would be good for them. Our new powermacs on the other hand can use 512GB modules in each slot before they hit a brick wall :D :D :D.

[ZildjianKX]

I'm not sure if its different for the G5, but you don't have to add dual channel DDR 3200 RAM in PCs in pairs...

Also, anyone else notice that in the G5 video, the hard drive they showed didn't have a serial ATA interface?

[DreaminDirector]

Strange question: Why does RAM need to go in as pairs? I never understood that....

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by Shadowfax
i figure the apple PC3200 RAM, you will find, will be very expensive. almost 4000$ for the full 8 GB alone. those pricewatch things you are looking at are all 2x512 MB modules. you'll put 4 GB in and have 4 GB of modules to look at, maybe put in a fish tank or something. the 8 GB is going to be EXPENSIVE for some time to come. and i would hazard a guess that when the 2 GB modules do come out, i really don't think they are now, they will be supported on the PM G5. the way they are addressing ram, any increase can probably be accomodated by a firmware update. the procs' addressing capabilities support up to like half a terrabyte of RAM.

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to get at. The modules you are talking about at PriceWatch say 2x512 because they are double sided dimms with 512MB/side. 8 of those would give you the maximum current capacity of 8GB in the current G5.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by DreaminDirector
Strange question: Why does RAM need to go in as pairs? I never understood that....

Apple has done this in the past and is doing it here for one reason. Speed. What is happening is that on start up the computer looks at say ram slot a1 and b1 sees they are filled and adresses the two slots as if they are one ram chip with two connections for twice the bandwidth. So in affect instead of the computer being limited to 400MHz by the DDR ram it sees it as having a bandwidth of twice that or 800MHz. I hope that makes since to you.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by MacBandit
I'm not quite sure what you are trying to get at. The modules you are talking about at PriceWatch say 2x512 because they are double sided dimms with 512MB/side. 8 of those would give you the maximum current capacity of 8GB in the current G5. that's odd. i guess i have been around apple too long. they have things like in a powerbook RAM listing, "512 MB (1x512 MB)" and "512 MB (2x256 MB)," the latter being a set of two, meaning buying another 512 MB stick to take it to 1 GB would actually mean you could get you just 768. anyways, all over that page on 1GB PC3200 DDR RAM, though not on the first listing, it says "kit." everywhere i have ever seen that wth ram it's been 2 modules that you put in. like for my powerbook, they sell 1 GB (2x512) kits. i can't put 2 GB of ram in my powerbook though, even if i buy 2 kits. now that is just outrageous, it seems. look at the 2 GB PC 3200. it's a grand. it specifically says 1 DIMM. nowhere does it say "2x1024."

i don't get it at all, sorry. if it was 1 stupid module, why would they say kit on almost every listing?

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by Shadowfax
that's odd. i guess i have been around apple too long. they have things like in a powerbook RAM listing, "512 MB (1x512 MB)" and "512 MB (2x256 MB)," the latter being a set of two, meaning buying another 512 MB stick to take it to 1 GB would actually mean you could get you just 768. anyways, all over that page on 1GB PC3200 DDR RAM, though not on the first listing, it says "kit." everywhere i have ever seen that wth ram it's been 2 modules that you put in. like for my powerbook, they sell 1 GB (2x512) kits. i can't put 2 GB of ram in my powerbook though, even if i buy 2 kits. now that is just outrageous, it seems. look at the 2 GB PC 3200. it's a grand. it specifically says 1 DIMM. nowhere does it say "2x1024."

i don't get it at all, sorry. if it was 1 stupid module, why would they say kit on almost every listing?

Ah, sorry I just reread the listings and I missed the part about Dual Channel. Dual channel means they have to be upgraded in pairs. Sorry I guess it was me that was used to a different kind of listing. I didn't find it all that unusual for a ram module specs to list whether or not it was a double sided dimm because that can make a difference in height and overall size.


I just went through the listings at pricewatch.com and the first memory module I could find that was a single 1GB card was on the 4th page for $230. There are other listings that appear to be single 1GB cards for cheaper on previous pages but if you actually go to the site listed they are 2x512.

[benixau]

it means that numbers like 768 are out the window.

You have to upgrade with identical pairs of RAM like so:

from (factory 256)
----
----
----
128

128
----
----
----

to (1280 (factory + user))
----
----
512
128

128
512
----
----

that is it. Your RAM ahs to mirror itself in the slots that apple has provided. As mentioned it is like RAID 0 for RAM.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by benixau
it means that numbers like 768 are out the window.

You have to upgrade with identical pairs of RAM like so:

from (factory 256)............

Actually there is still same possibility of RAM sizes as there has been for the past 4 or 5 years with the modern systems. 768 is still possible on the new machines with 256 just add two 256MB chips and you then have a total of 768MB. Quite simply it is as I stated above. The whold deal is that they system sees the two chips as one big chip but in affect that one big chip has two pipelines to it so you get twice the bandwidth. That's the only difference. You can still have any combination of RAM you can think of for the most part. Also with 8 slots on the upper two models you can just upgrade over time with even small 128MB sized cards you would still end up with a gig when all the slots were filled.

[DreaminDirector]

The RAM "pairs" make sense. But what about in machines that have 4 slots (like my MDD) instead of 8 (like the G5). Does that apply to them as well?

Right now I have this set up:

----
512
512
128

[Porshuh944turbo]

i know it's cool, but how many people will be actually buying 8gb or ram.. or even 4gb??????

do you have your current computer maxed out?????

I have 1.25GB.. and that's usually enough :)

2gb maybe.... most.. 4gb... but i can't see needing 8gb of ram...

(all gb's should be GB.. i know....)

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by DreaminDirector
The RAM "pairs" make sense. But what about in machines that have 4 slots (like my MDD) instead of 8 (like the G5). Does that apply to them as well?

Right now I have this set up:

----
512
512
128

No those machines don't need pairs at all. In those machines the RAM is faster then the FSB of the CPU and there is no reason to pair them. The last time Apple used interleaving on a system was the Powemac 8x00 and 9x00 towers as far as I know.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by Porshuh944turbo
i know it's cool, but how many people will be actually buying 8gb or ram.. or even 4gb??????

do you have your current computer maxed out?????

I have 1.25GB.. and that's usually enough :)

2gb maybe.... most.. 4gb... but i can't see needing 8gb of ram...

(all gb's should be GB.. i know....)

No, for most of us even 1GB as I hav in my machine even though I can put 2GB in it is more then enough. Though as stated previosly there are always those among us in which there is never enough hardware resources. I would say the type of people that render at Pixar could always use more RAM. Give them 100
GB and they would find a reason why more would be helpful. In reality there will never be enough RAM until permanant storage (AKA Hard drives) are as fast as RAM.

[benixau]

Originally posted by MacBandit
Actually there is still same possibility of RAM sizes as there has been for the past 4 or 5 years with the modern systems. 768 is still possible on the new machines with 256 just add two 256MB chips and you then have a total of 768MB. Quite simply it is as I stated above. The whold deal is that they system sees the two chips as one big chip but in affect that one big chip has two pipelines to it so you get twice the bandwidth. That's the only difference. You can still have any combination of RAM you can think of for the most part. Also with 8 slots on the upper two models you can just upgrade over time with even small 128MB sized cards you would still end up with a gig when all the slots were filled.

thankyou for that. I had forgotten about 256 chips. If i were to ever get RAM i would not go as low as a chip like that. 512 chips, even PC3200 are cheap enough to warrant buying them over 256 chips. Also the benfit of doing so is mush more obvious.

but yes - thankyou for clarifying that about sizes.

And it is like i said - RAID0 on RAM. using more than one physical unit to create one logical unit. People dont really get Dual Channel yet, people mostly get RAID0 / stripping.

[KentuckyApple]

stripping sounds nice, but I thought it was striping.

[ZildjianKX]

Originally posted by ZildjianKX
Also, anyone else notice that in the G5 video, the hard drive they showed didn't have a serial ATA interface?

Come on... I can't be the only tech geek here... no one else noticed?

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by ZildjianKX
Come on... I can't be the only tech geek here... no one else noticed?

You must be referring to the architecture overview 3d tour. Well yeah it's pretty obvious but at this point after all the hoohaa with the PowerMacs at the Apple Store who really cares. So Apple makes mistakes. Also could just be they are using renderings and animation from some previous project to save money and time.

[Porshuh944turbo]

Originally posted by benixau
And it is like i said - RAID0 on RAM. using more than one physical unit to create one logical unit. People dont really get Dual Channel yet, people mostly get RAID0 / stripping.

What do you mean for RAID 0 on RAM? :confused: I've never heard of RAID on RAM.. I know what RAID 0 is, but never heard that talked about with RAM... plz enlighten me

:)

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by Porshuh944turbo
What do you mean for RAID 0 on RAM? :confused: I've never heard of RAID on RAM.. I know what RAID 0 is, but never heard that talked about with RAM... plz enlighten me

:)


He's comparing Dual Channel Ram to a raid hard drive setup. It's the same idea. You have two storage devices (i.e. two ram cards or two hard drives) that are read as one single storage unit but each device even thought he system sees it as one has it's own hardware connection so they have in theory twice the bandwidth.

[Porshuh944turbo]

I thought we were talking about twin channel RAM as used in the new G5 (like many recent PC mobo's). The reason you have to use mirrored sticks is becuase the system sees them as one. and has a 128bit path to each simulationeously.

So he's comparing this to a Striped RAID? I can see the comparison, just never heard of it like that..

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by Porshuh944turbo
I thought we were talking about twin channel RAM as used in the new G5 (like many recent PC mobo's). The reason you have to use mirrored sticks is becuase the system sees them as one. and has a 128bit path to each simulationeously.

So he's comparing this to a Striped RAID? I can see the comparison, just never heard of it like that..

Twin channel - Dual channel. Same difference. Yeah he's trying to put the idea in another context for people who don't understand the concept.

[Sun Baked]

And the Power Mac G5 RAM requirement

DIMM Specifications

The RAM expansion slots accept 184-pin DDR SDRAM DIMMs that are 2.5 volt, unbuffered, 8-byte, nonparity, and DDR400-compliant (PC3200) or DR333-compliant (PC2700).

Important

DDR266 (PC2100) or slower DIMMs do not work in the Power Mac G5 computer.

Important

DIMMs with any of the following features are not supported in the Power Mac G5 computer: registers or buffers, PLLs, ECC, parity, or EDO RAM.

----

Further NOTEs

Must be installed in Pairs (Both machines)

&

For all microprocessor speeds and for both DDR400 (PC3200) and DDR333 (PC2700) SDRAM DIMMs, the Power Mac G5 supports CAS latencies of 2, 2.5, 3, 4, and 5.

[XnavxeMiyyep]

To those who said 8 GB is more than anyone would ever need:

Sure, you or I may never use 8 GB of RAM(well maybe in about 5 years we might), but it would be really useful for rendering video, which is a very long process.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by XnavxeMiyyep
To those who said 8 GB is more than anyone would ever need:

Sure, you or I may never use 8 GB of RAM(well maybe in about 5 years we might), but it would be really useful for rendering video, which is a very long process.

Absolutely, I made this point previously. For example just take any big animation production company Pixar, Dream Works, Sony. Those people could easily use 8gigs now and probably wouldn't shrug off any amount of RAM they could get their hands on. Remember these machines are PRO machines so in affect if you're saying you'll never need 8gigs you probably aren't a PRO.

[groovebuster]

Originally posted by MacBandit
Those people could easily use 8gigs now and probably wouldn't shrug off any amount of RAM they could get their hands on.

Don't want to sound ignorant, but what is the benefit of having 8GB of RAM for a render job which is done frame by frame anyway, where a fast processor is much more important than huge amounts of RAM? To render one frame is definately still taking longer than the time that is needed to write it on the HD, so what's the deal? Or am I missing something?

groovebuster

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by groovebuster
Don't want to sound ignorant, but what is the benefit of having 8GB of RAM for a render job which is done frame by frame anyway, where a fast processor is much more important than huge amounts of RAM? To render one frame is definately still taking longer than the time that is needed to write it on the HD, so what's the deal? Or am I missing something?

groovebuster

I'm not thinking of rendering. I'm thinking of development. Being able to have say 10 minutes of frames in memory so that you can edit and flip through them on the fly etc.. I'm not a 3d artist but I have been told that they are the people that need the RAM.

[Porshuh944turbo]

MacBandit,

you're right about the video.... but you know as well as I do that us "users" who are definately not PRO as these machines are DESIGNED for will know way in HELL buy anything BUT these since they are the ONLY way we'll get to use a G5!!! and since we are not PRO, we will be perfectly happy with 2GB of this super fast 200 Mhz DDR RAM!!! :)

Which is why I think that if Apple doesn't update the rest of the product line FAST, they won't sell a damn thing! (other than G5's of course)

powerbook... $3299 for what??? a measly 1ghz G4?????

come on!

no offense to recent powerbook owners

[hvfsl]

You can't put normal PC RAM in the new G5 Macs, this is because at WWDC Apple said it was 128bit RAM, this is the stuff that is normally used on graphics cards. This is also why it is more expensive than PC DDR400/333 RAM.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by Porshuh944turbo
MacBandit,

you're right about the video.... but you know as well as I do that us "users" who are definately not PRO as these machines are DESIGNED for will know way in HELL buy anything BUT these since they are the ONLY way we'll get to use a G5!!! and since we are not PRO, we will be perfectly happy with 2GB of this super fast 200 Mhz DDR RAM!!! :)

Which is why I think that if Apple doesn't update the rest of the product line FAST, they won't sell a damn thing! (other than G5's of course)

powerbook... $3299 for what??? a measly 1ghz G4?????

come on!

no offense to recent powerbook owners

Yeah I agree I personally use PowerMacs just for a personal computer. I can't stand having something so much less then the best when the difference in price is realistically so small.

I don't think the Powerbooks will be updated soon. I know it could possibly hurt sales but in all reality they compete very favorably with the rest of the laptops on the market. I due think they will be getting a new G4 in them very soon though.

[Sun Baked]

Originally posted by hvfsl
You can't put normal PC RAM in the new G5 Macs, this is because at WWDC Apple said it was 128bit RAM, this is the stuff that is normally used on graphics cards. This is also why it is more expensive than PC DDR400/333 RAM. http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=380969

(HINT: 1 byte = 8 bits)

But it's dual channel and requires installation in pairs, not a single 128-bit Mac-only module.
DIMM Specifications

The RAM expansion slots accept 184-pin DDR SDRAM DIMMs that are 2.5 volt, unbuffered, 8-byte, nonparity, and DDR400-compliant (PC3200) or DR333-compliant (PC2700).