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MacRumors
Aug 23, 2001, 05:22 PM
Mikebach writes:

[i]Apple plans to drop the price of the 400MHz PowerBook G4 by $400 to $2,199 and slash the price of the 500MHz model by $500 to $2,999, according to a Macintosh reseller familiar with Apple's plans for the high-end notebook.

Check it out here .. (http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2807202,00.html?chkpt=zdhpnews01)




[Edited by Macrumors on 08-23-2001 at 08:29 PM]

ThlayliTheFierce
Aug 23, 2001, 06:05 PM
Now I'm really thinking Steve was omitting something with his "no new hardware" statement. If this story is true, NOT upgrading the powerbook just would not make sense. I hope it is, then maybe I could afford one...

mikebach
Aug 23, 2001, 06:29 PM
I am been waiting to get a PowerBook G4 and now seems to be better then ever with the 500 price cuts. I was waiting to the end of September to see if they were going to introduce a better graphic board and faster speeds. What do you guys think. Get one with the Price drop? or wait till Seybold.

Mike

mymemory
Aug 23, 2001, 06:37 PM
Was about time, I wouldn't buy the G4 without a internal CD Burner. Just an Apple fanatic would buy such machine at that price. It is nice but the price is way too much. By the time I wanted to buy a G3 Firewire they where already discontinued, I'm glad I got a G3 500 Firewire with 256 Ram, extra batery at $1.400!!!!, that was good.

Unfurtunatly I can not make the fractals of the iTunes come out thru the video out put.

Any way, It is good the price are coming down.

[Edited by mymemory on 09-03-2001 at 07:09 PM]

ThomasB
Aug 23, 2001, 08:06 PM
I get a BUNCH of e-mails as an Apple Solutions Expert and I got one that had similar information to the price cut. I also heard earlier from the same e-mail list that there wasn't going to be any new hardware until next year.

apple ok i guess
Aug 23, 2001, 11:14 PM
iam not buying one, screw this ****!

iam a powerbook 5300 owner and iam not buying a crappy model

year and a half viveo card, no burner, 400 i remember having a 400mhz 4 years ago ****!

i'll wait till janury or BUY A SONY VAIO !!!

screw apple i recomend windows to everyone i know, why cause most people havent even heard of apple, every one uses windows and to most there is only windows, apples are like toys or vcr's but not computers!!!!


sorry for bulgary but damm it !!!! iam sick of this crap

a little more and i'll go soo anti apple just for being such idiots, till the day i die i'll bad mouth apple..

so they have been threatend !!!

menoinjun
Aug 24, 2001, 12:56 AM
i hereby open the floodgates...

Why are you posting on this site douchebag if you are so anti Apple? Say, why don't we do some benchmarking between your computer and mine, and see which one is faster...my mac or your pc. Furthermore, how long has your computer been running without crashing...doubtful more than 2 days. Next time you're editing your registry because of some stupid conflict, I hope you think of how nice it would be to be running a mac. Lastly, if you insist on running a WinTel box o' crap, at least run Linux...be smart man!

-Pete

ultrarad
Aug 24, 2001, 02:03 AM
Hey People - as I wrote in another forum, I went to the Academic Apple site and the prices are even cheaper than what has been written in this forum. Go check out the Academic pricing at apple - i just bought a 400 G4 - YEAH!!

ultrarad
Aug 24, 2001, 02:04 AM
Even though I am sure I will LOVE my new puter!!!!

Kela
Aug 24, 2001, 02:08 AM
Ptrauber, let him be a PC freak if he wants to. However, I at the moment doubt that he even owns a mac and hence has not experienced the mac clout. Also, 400 Mhz 4 years ago? I doubt that. Sony Vaio? A BIG NO NO, see the latest benchmarks of the Titanium 500 MHz vrs the best Vaio,. THe titanium G4 almost outdoes it 3 times in performance. Look at the sick gray and yellow windows finder and compare it to the beautiful Aquarian interface of OS X. About the Laptops, In France, I CAN ASSURE YOU that you will see speed upgrades. THE 400 MHZ MODEL WILL NOT BE MANUFACTURED. THE LOW END WILL BE A 500 MHZ. the high end (maybe 633 mhz) or even 700s. There MIGHT be an update in the graphic chip. NO CD rewritable though. HOWEVER, STEVE WILL OFFER A CDRW drive (firewire) with a purchase of either the low end or high end model.

apple ok i guess
Aug 24, 2001, 04:21 AM
well people its me again....

i own a man one and my first and last one

a powerbook 5300cs

it still runs great with 8.6 on it.

i am sorry i have been wating for osx since december 96

now that its out well... the dual's g4 are too overpriced and a 867 just inst fast enought for a comparebe pc IN THE SAME PRICE CATEGORY. i know g4 faster ... blah

imac its a joke, ibook cant even run OS X,

Tibook was like a good and well it makes me mad steve does something like this,,

what's more the tibook cant be processor upgraded which i think iam going for a g3 book and later putting a g4 or g5 whatever down the line...

people in the real woirld mac's dont matter trust me from a guy trying to push them, most new customers dont want to be push into a 5% market with 5% software...

it just aint happening, now for computer lovers like me sure the mac is great, and soo are sgi's and sun's.....

Kela
Aug 24, 2001, 04:34 AM
With all due FREAKIN respect....I CANNOT understand what you are saying. Honestly, please iterate more clearly. ENGLISH.

If you have been waiting for OS X since Dec 96, you are dumb. Now that its out (and 10.1 around the corner) you dont want it?. And let me get this straight, the Quiksilver cant run OS X? Neither can the iBook?

One more thing, youre gonna buy a g3 "book" and put a g5 in it? In all Honesty my friend, are you on drugs? I speculate that you tried to install OSX on your PB 5300 right?

By the ways, with Apples new Educational Pricing Scheme, the market share will rise dramatiacally. If you instill mac attitude in a child from kindergarten till 12th grade, he/she will never go PC. If Apple takes on this strategy, it is a mega investment for its future.

And for people like you...well i guess, its kinda like...gonna die out.

john123
Aug 24, 2001, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by Kela
With all due FREAKIN respect....I CANNOT understand what you are saying. Honestly, please iterate more clearly. ENGLISH.


This is totally the pot calling the kettle black. Kela, half the time I have no clue what you're saying either. You aren't much a fan of the English language yourself it seems.

As Confucious said, he who lives in glass house should not throw stones.

Pants
Aug 24, 2001, 11:46 AM
ROFLMAO! top thread!

" I own a man..." lol!

hey whatever - but Id love to see you try and get a "processor Upragde for Yuor PC liptap!" i dont think changing a processor in ANY laptop is a trivial thing, and this doesnt just apply to apple....
(stick a p4 in your laptop and watch it burst into flames! hey, scrap that upgrading lark, just buy a dell. They are quite good at bursting into flames straight out of the box!)

If theres a 400 dollar price drop for the low end Ti book - that makes it almost teh same price as the top end iBook. I cant believe that would be the case would it? unless of course, that drops too.....

mymemory
Aug 24, 2001, 12:07 PM
In my house we have 3 Macs and 1 PC, trust me... the PC can hardly run it's own OS, while my brother have a 2LC and can run Claris and still able to print. I have a G4 400 and a PB G3 Firewire 500.

Face it, PC works for people that just want to get away with "a computer" under the harms for college or just because they have to.

A friend of mine bough a PC with a video out put card, now he can not find the drivers because the company has discontinued the model!!! WHILE I STILL ABLE TO FIND GAMES FOR MY ATARI 512ST!!!.

PC's are like bubblegum, they last for a moment. Show me a satisfy 400Mhz processor PC owner today! PC are always located in the loundry room. If you want to burn a CD, you have to buy the interface and the unit, if you want to hear something you have to buy the internal CDplayer, the audio card and the speakers, hopefully they will run with your mother board and you video card... that is a standar PC scenario.

You will never are gonna find a Mac enclosure out on the street beside the trash can, not even in my 3rd world piece of **** country where I ****ing live!. Even in the gettos (and we have some) you can see PC's on the trash.

A Macintosh last 4 times more than a PC and how much software do you want for your computer? Do you actually use all that? I work in multimedia and I own avery piece of audio, publishing, video and interactive software (and PCI card) you can imagine.

I may need a PC to check if my soft can run, because with PC's you will never know.

I was making the sound for a web page and my client told me not to boather because most of the computers doesn't have speakers, I said, sorry I forgot your people uses PC's.



[Edited by mymemory on 08-24-2001 at 01:20 PM]

MattB
Aug 24, 2001, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by apple ok i guess
the dual's g4 are too overpriced and a 867 just inst fast enought for a comparebe pc IN THE SAME PRICE CATEGORY. i know g4 faster ... blah


I don't necessarily think the Dual 800 is overpriced. It's just that there is nothing to compare it to. Name me a major PC manufacturer (i.e. HP, Sony, Compaq, Acer, etc.) that makes a Dual Processor PC. They don't.

And if you are basing your speed judgement off of the fact that Apple's computers top out at 867Mhz, get a life. You need to use the conversion that Apple's Mhz number should be multiplied by 2 when copmparing them to PCs.

al256
Aug 24, 2001, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Kela
If you instill mac attitude in a child from kindergarten till 12th grade, he/she will never go PC. If Apple takes on this strategy, it is a mega investment for its future.


This is true, I've been using macs ever since kindergarten. Since then its been macs all the way, but parents looking for good deals on computers will always see a pc looking in their face. It took some years for my parents to realize that I wouldn't settle for a cheap pc. Macs do cost more and that's hard for a kid in high school but my newest computer is a pismo. I would say out of 1000 or so kids who had a mac experience only 5 use macs currently. Oh yeah a powerbook g4 price drop isn't a bad thing.

[Edited by al256 on 08-24-2001 at 02:26 PM]

john123
Aug 24, 2001, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by MattB
[QUOTE]Originally posted by apple ok i guess
Name me a major PC manufacturer (i.e. HP, Sony, Compaq, Acer, etc.) that makes a Dual Processor PC. They don't.

I have a dual-1.4 Ghz Dell sitting right in front of me....

MattB
Aug 24, 2001, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by al256
[QUOTE]I would say out of 1000 or so kids who had a mac experience only 5 use macs currently.

I think that is becuase the child is only using the Mac at school for maybe 20 minutes a week and then goes home and jumps on his/her PC for hours a day, but this seems to be changing with schools integrating Macs into the curriculum a lot more by using them as intructional tools and note taking devices.

MattB
Aug 24, 2001, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by john123
[QUOTE]I have a dual-1.4 Ghz Dell sitting right in front of me....

I checked Dell's website and as far as I can tell, they don't offer Dual Processor machines. Did you do the upgrade yourself?

al256
Aug 24, 2001, 01:59 PM
True in some cases, but we must all remember that not everyone has a computer. Also some still don't know how to use their computers. For as advanced as this world is a computer is not necessity for everyone.

mymemory
Aug 24, 2001, 02:56 PM
I worked in a Cyber Cafe, we had 8 "state of the art" PC's, Only 2 of them work properly, one of them was only running DOOM with the VR5 Helmet. It took us 3 weeks to make every single computer run at same time all togather (and not for too long). At the end we had to leave them as simple as we could, because we had too many conflicts with the devices and drivers. I'm glad I quit 2 months later, they are broke now.

Just in case, our technician is working now in Pyramid System, a company encharge of the Virtual Rality development department for Silicon Graphics up ther in Michigan.
I mean, If you want to resolve problems get a PC and you are gonna have endless hours of entertaiment fixing your computer.
Down here in Venezuela a have friend that spend his hollydays trying to make his computer work just to record some audio in it while for me is another day at the office with my Digital Performer, Protool 5.1, Cubes and Logic Audio (in case some one says there are not software for Mac).

To get a PC is like buying a Fiat chasis, put a Chevrolet engine, a Honda transmision, the windows of the Porshe 944, the seats of your Mercedes and expect it to run as a brand new Toyota Corolla (in Venezuela we have better toyota vehicles that you do in US).

The only company that is doing some work with their enclosures besides Apple is Compac. Unless you want get one of those 'translucent" mouse or generic colored enclosures for PC's to make you think you have a Mac! Because the other option is buying a Silicon Graphic O2, and THAT is an expensive computer and THAT really doesn't have any software. You choose.

gandalf55
Aug 24, 2001, 03:38 PM
"apple ok i guess"

this person must be some dumbass Winblows user who saw the mixed reviews of XP on CNet news, saw the story on Apple's price cuts and found this forum after a search or something.

go waddle in your humiliating OS, you borg.

john123
Aug 24, 2001, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by MattB
Originally posted by john123
[QUOTE]I have a dual-1.4 Ghz Dell sitting right in front of me....

I checked Dell's website and as far as I can tell, they don't offer Dual Processor machines. Did you do the upgrade yourself?

Not at all...I didn't do the purchase order myself, but I know that it was just done through regular special order channels. The cost was somewhere between $2500 and $3000.....

menoinjun
Aug 24, 2001, 04:11 PM
well-it;s official.

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2001/aug/24pbprice.html

mymemory
Aug 24, 2001, 04:43 PM
"Not at all...I didn't do the purchase order myself, but I know that it was just done through regular special order channels. The cost was somewhere between $2500 and $3000....."

And for $500 more you get the top of the line G4 that include:
-DVD and CD burner (that your computer desn't).
-Audio Output
-2 Firewire and 2 USB ports.
-4 PCI slots (to do whatever you want with them)
-a bunch o video Ram
-Ethernet ready.
-Modem ready
-etc...

Just, how much thouse features will cost on a PC... besides!!!! in a Mac they work as soon you open the box, while you will have to get the lates drive and pray it works with your mother board. That's the PC world. Pay a bit less, suffer a lot more.

randy "long" johnson
Aug 24, 2001, 06:17 PM
Just thought I'd add here... that I was raised on a Mac, all the way through high school, and most of college even. Then the time came to purchase my own computer, and having as little money as I did, and after carefully evaluating my options (and the pros and cons), I ended up purchasing a PC. Mac's were just too unaffordable for me at the time.
Everyone told me I'd regret it, and that PC's were a technical nightmare, and not user-freindly by any means.

But, it turned out that, while PC's can certainly have their faults, I found my PC to be extremely efficient.. worked "right out of the box" and everything. Yeah, there was a little learning curve moving from Mac OS to Windows, but, no big deal really.. not like some people would have you believe. Additionally, the crash ratio was more or less the same for me using Windows 95.. in fact, I'd go as far as to say that the Power PC Macs at school crashed a bit more frequently (and systematically) while using Photoshop.

Moreover, during my senior year of college, I needed a new computer and decided to build a PC from scratch (also, because of the lack of money at the time).. once again.. no problems. I did my research, understood the compatibility issues, bought all the parts individually, and installed the OS myself.. no problems (outside of a fried cpu that i had to return). I've used it mostly for schoolwork, doing graphic design and audio recording editing, along with the standard tasks (word processing, etc). So, to this extent, I would have to disagree with the many over-zealous comments seen here on how the PC is totally and utterly inferior to the MAC.. because of its unreliability.

That said, I now find myself in a position where I have some money available and am looking again at purchasing a new computer. The TiBook and the dual 800 Quicksilver are very distinct possibilities at the moment. Why? To tell you the truth I'm not completely certain.. maybe it's a nostalgia thing. I think it has to do with the unified integration of parts, and the excellent attention to aesthetic that Apple administers upon all its products. Those are both things I value highly. Performance-wise, I'm still not sure what the story is. From the neutral benchmarks I've seen, the two systems are more or less comparable. Perhaps some of you could help elucidate the matter for me, as I'm planning on purchasing a new computer in October of this year. But, please.. if you're going to defend one way or the other, try and make your arguments at least semi-objective. I realise this is a Mac forum, and many of us love Apple for all that is and stands for (vs. Microsoft).. but by spouting off spurious comments touting Apple's extreme domination over the PC.. without pragmatic examples to back it up (i.e. "I run Logic Audio and Premiere on both a Mac and a PC, and the Mac is considerably more efficient at accomplishing similar tasks," vs.. "My friend just switched to a PC and regrets it every day cause my Mac is just sooo much faster and better at running everything"), people often backlash when they find out those over-zealous statements aren't necessarily true.

Anyway.. just some thoughts I've been having. Carry on.

Pants
Aug 24, 2001, 06:40 PM
RJ. nice post !

As pc/mac/unix user I can give the following .... The pc and unix boxes are primarilly used for 'work'. Im one of teh unfortuante few that still writes in FORTRAN, and I find my crusty old sun box easiest to get on with when farting around with F77. dont ask me why - i just dunno - i think its just what Im used to. or maybe im odd - who knows? the pc is also used here at work - research money didnt spread to far at teh time, and besides there are teh odd program or two that isnt mac compatible. However, this is becoming less of a problem - teh virtual pc emulator is very good and runs happily - for most programmes (chemical type database modelling things), i dont notice a dramatic difference in speed when running under an emulator on my mac. The only thing I can say teh pc wins for is in the number of games, although as a quake / UT player, this is again not of a problem for the mac. yes, there are more pc games, but most are transient, and only a few last. Good ones are rapidly ported. The advent of decent graphics cards on apples has really helped here, and again as a real world example, im not hampered dramatically by the lower mhz rating of a 733 g4. Teh price / raw performance between mac and pc is definately coming down. As far as laptops go, you'd be hard beat to find a better deal than the cdrw dvd iBook (although the Ti book deal now seems to be a real tempter! im a real believer that if Im spending good money I want it to look good as well as be good. I will pay a little extra for that little 'wow' factor - if Im underwhelmed in teh first week of ownage, how will I feel in a years time? )

One thing to look out for is os X and XP. personally, im pleased with osX and excited by it. Theres not many pc users excited by XP it seems - some of teh potential 'features' are to be positively dreaded it seems. osX should remove that entire system crash thing we all know and love with os 9. but then XP should do similar. the nice thing about osX is its unix based, with a nice front end. it means you can have teh geeky kudos of a linux user without the hair pulling frustration! stability speed and user freindly geekness. who needs more?

randy "long" johnson
Aug 24, 2001, 08:04 PM
Hey Pants.. I totally agree.
PC's more of gaming fiend's platform, with more choices, and better video cards to boot.
And I also agree that price and *overall* performance is certainly beginning to even out quite a bit.

One question I've been having is, which is *really* better for audio/video applications? I hear so much from both sides, saying that Apple, "kicks ass on pc.. just look at what the majority of the industry is using.. that should tell you something." But, I don't really buy that.. much of the reason the a/v industry has a Mac majority, is because of habit, and because mac was undoubtedly an a/v platform long before the PC was even running Photoshop. At the same time, I hear from some people that, "Oh, all that Mac touting is just smoke up yr ass," and that, "PC's have evened out with Mac's across the board"... and I don't really buy that either, because so many of the PC users that make those claims are gamers, or programmers, or business types, who don't really use Photoshop or Premiere or Cubase enough to know how the chip deals with floating point calculations and so forth on a pro-level (forgive me if I'm talking out my arse here..)

Which just leaves me confused.

And, to bring this thread back on topic.. the danger I see with Apple lowering the prices (marginally) and not releasing advanced components, is when you have a general cross-section of consumers/pro-sumers like myself, (and many of my friends and people I know), confused about the application specific ratings of a $3600 laptop with limited expandability options, and how they compare to its competition, which sells an equivalent laptop (component-wise) for less.. then survival instinct is going to convince us to either wait for the next expo and hope for something new (and accept the possibility of being severly let down), consider the alternatives to a $3600 laptop (especially when the iBook is considerably less and the Quicksilver is negligibly more), or go with the cheaper, more mainstream product (i.e. windows-based-PC).

Oh, and I agree with you about OSX.. it's definitely promising. At first glance, I thought it was a little too consumer-ish and goofy with all the animated windows and so forth. But it's looking like it could really be a pro-level op sys. I'm curious to know how the dual 800's are running optimised programs on OSX... (can't wait for Logic Audio 5 this september!)

Sorry for all the tangents here..

apple ok i guess
Aug 24, 2001, 09:11 PM
Look people iam buying a mac, a Tibook g4.

but damm i just wish it had a few additons...

like a cdr-dw

a better graphics card ( no one can deny that the g3 powerbooks had then a year or so ago)

and a speed bump would be since i wait the better half of the year...

heck a lowered $2000 tibook is okay but if iam spending that money i rather add a few more bucks and get something i really will love to own.

apple OS X is amazing the only reason iam buying a mac.

otherwise the hardware is good, but iam somebody who has always built my machines with the best of everything just the way i like them. something pc vendors sometimes cant do.

apple ok i guess
Aug 24, 2001, 09:14 PM
Look people iam buying a mac, a Tibook g4.

but damm i just wish it had a few additons...

like a cdr-dw

a better graphics card ( no one can deny that the g3 powerbooks had then a year or so ago)

and a speed bump would be since i wait the better half of the year...

heck a lowered $2000 tibook is okay but if iam spending that money i rather add a few more bucks and get something i really will love to own.

apple OS X is amazing the only reason iam buying a mac.

otherwise the hardware is good, but iam somebody who has always built my machines with the best of everything just the way i like them. something pc vendors sometimes cant do.

john123
Aug 24, 2001, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by mymemory
"Not at all...I didn't do the purchase order myself, but I know that it was just done through regular special order channels. The cost was somewhere between $2500 and $3000....."

And for $500 more you get the top of the line G4 that include:
-DVD and CD burner (that your computer desn't).
-Audio Output
-2 Firewire and 2 USB ports.
-4 PCI slots (to do whatever you want with them)
-a bunch o video Ram
-Ethernet ready.
-Modem ready
-etc...

Just, how much thouse features will cost on a PC... besides!!!! in a Mac they work as soon you open the box, while you will have to get the lates drive and pray it works with your mother board. That's the PC world. Pay a bit less, suffer a lot more.

Sorry guy, but the PC has everything you talked about for that price tag I mentioned with the exception of DVD-R. All for $500-$1000 less than the Mac. It's even better on many fronts (e.g., 64 MB of VRAM).

I still prefer the Mac...I'm just saying you can get more bang for your buck with a PC. But then, that's always been the case.

bix
Aug 25, 2001, 12:09 AM
*_* go to toysrus.com for stupid discussions like that.

~/indigo
Aug 25, 2001, 02:51 AM
Dual Dell:
Judging by the description of the dual 1.4 GHz Dell I am guessing that it is using P4 CPUs. You might be interested in knowing that, in general, x86 doesn't work well in SMP (and it scales horribly). The P4 is a good example of a worst case scenario. SMP is something dominated by RISC machines (it was one of the main ideas behind the design of many of them). As is such, it works best with them. I am also interested in what OS you are running. I hope that it isn't NT-based. They neglected to work in an efficient task scheduling component to the kernel so you waste alot of cycles (although with 2 CPUs it isn't terrible). I hope that you are using something *NIX-based or BeOS. Those are designed with SMP in mind so they tend to do it well.

The games argument:
I will never understand why people use the argument that they use Windows for the games. If you want games, buy a Play Station 2. Save tons of cash in the process and get better graphics performance.

The matter at hand:
This price cut was badly needed. Even though the G4 kicks the G3's ass for every type of operation, it wasn't worth paying that kind of a premium. This puts things in perspective. It is now a tough choice to make (the iBook used to have it, hands down). Although I would like to see a faster CPU and higher system bus speeds, it isn't really an issue.
Let's not forget that these G4 CPUs used by the TiBooks are probably the best designed CPUs of all time. They still hold the 4-stage pipeline and they have a L2 1 MB cache! That is sweet and it is why one of these is only slightly slower than the new 733 QuickSilver systems (that cache really kicks ass).
Generally, we still beat out the competition.

Desktops are more of a cause for concern but the current economic state is a good reason to hold off on the "next big thing" since you wouldn't sell any anyway.

Just my thoughts,
~/indigo

ThlayliTheFierce
Aug 25, 2001, 03:25 AM
Originally posted by john123
Sorry guy, but the PC has everything you talked about for that price tag I mentioned with the exception of DVD-R. All for $500-$1000 less than the Mac. It's even better on many fronts (e.g., 64 MB of VRAM).

I still prefer the Mac...I'm just saying you can get more bang for your buck with a PC. But then, that's always been the case. [/B]


Price of a DVD-RW drive: $650

If you were to add this to your dual P4, the price would even out, if not end up costing you more than the Mac. And the dual 800 comes with GeForce 3 64 mb.

spikey
Aug 25, 2001, 08:20 AM
Y are you comparing P4 to Macs, every1 knows that the Athlon is cheaper and faster than the P4.
Also why the hell are you comparing dual processor P4s to dual macs, PC software is not optimised for dual processing so on average it is only 3% faster than a single P4.
Put it this way, i have just built a:
1.4Ghz athlon
256 Mb DDR ram
Asus Geforce 3
7000 rpm 40 gig IBM hard drive

I have built this for under £1000, to add a DVD drive and CDRW drive it would cost another £300.
the plain and simple fact is that for under £1500 i can get a top of the range PC and yet for the top of the range G4 i have to pay another £1000
Use your ****ing heads people

Pants
Aug 25, 2001, 09:24 AM
hmm... p4 or teh p3 is no more of a CISC chip than a g4 is a risc chip. Its ok comparing one with other, but using outdated terminology to 'prove a point' ruins it.
Its teh same as the mhz myth (as teh guy abouve so elegantly put it) a 1.4 ghz athlon out performs your 1.7ghz thlon. But the public *has* got tied into it, and intel have painted themselves into a corner....
As for Spikey - well yeah. have your Athlon box. have your windows XP box. and try not swear at it.

The amount of Vram is not a measure of how good a graphics card is ('wow! a 64 meg rage pro!! woot! ' ), and consoles suck for certain game formats. Like it or not, games help sell home machines (just look how big the industry is....). They are still one of teh BEST benchmarks IMO, simply because they push teh limit of memory, cpu and graphics card, whilst being optimised for that platform. Games remove that thorny photoshop bleat of "waaaw!! its not optimised!!". And how many folks at home own a full legit copy of photoshop and really need full colour seperations on a daily basis??

Randy - the video editing thing on mac. Its a fair number of factors - good firewire support, tight product specification, meaning fewer problems with drivers, and as far as iMovie goes, good intuitive design, without all teh whistles and bells of a £400 pound video editing suite. IMovie is good, if you have a use for it. A large part of computer using for me, is not how fast your machine runs, but how fast I achieve my goal. Its like sprinting around blindly only to have to turn round and and retrace your steps. Sometimes it is better to gently saunter and get there first time!

spikey
Aug 25, 2001, 10:11 AM
i will swear at it as much as i swear at macs and their fps ratings, their price, their value for money, their damn lack of games.

john123
Aug 25, 2001, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by ThlayliTheFierce
Originally posted by john123
Sorry guy, but the PC has everything you talked about for that price tag I mentioned with the exception of DVD-R. All for $500-$1000 less than the Mac. It's even better on many fronts (e.g., 64 MB of VRAM).

I still prefer the Mac...I'm just saying you can get more bang for your buck with a PC. But then, that's always been the case.


Price of a DVD-RW drive: $650

If you were to add this to your dual P4, the price would even out, if not end up costing you more than the Mac. And the dual 800 comes with GeForce 3 64 mb. [/B]

$2650 (I just got the price quote) +$650 does not = $3500. Also, you are forgetting about the CD-RW/DVD combo already built into the machine...that has some value, yes? So you can subtract that "value" from your $650. Never mind the fact that the dual-1.4 Ghz is so much more mindbogglingly fast than any of the Macs I've used, including the latest incarnations.

falc420
Aug 25, 2001, 12:44 PM
Does anybody think that this price cut might have paved the way for a third model of the PB G4 in September?

Base model for $2199
Midrange for $2999?
High-end for $3499

-Colin

ThlayliTheFierce
Aug 25, 2001, 01:32 PM
Hey john123 I was just going off of your "$2500-$3000" price quote.

ultrarad
Aug 25, 2001, 02:11 PM
I'm BACK ---

You know, after seven Macs, you'd think that I'd be more willing to work with such a great company as Apple, but when I went to order my Tibook from the Academic Education Store, this is what happened. My order wasn't processed on time - so I called and the RUDE lady told me that it might not totally process until the 3rd (and I ordered on the 23rd of July) and if this WAS the case, that I WOULDN'T get the free cd-rw drive. COME ON APPLE - give me a break. So, I'm going to cancel my order on Monday and go to Clubmac where I can forgo the free RAM and get my book for $2,049 - NO SALES TAX either. Hmmm-----if I weren't such a MAC freak, I just might move to PC's. Opening up MAc stores isn't going to help sell computers - Intelligent, highly helpful people are what sell computers - Poor Steve - he STILL doesn't get it.......

(as the Tibook Turns - I think that would be a great Soap Opera)

Hes Nikke
Aug 25, 2001, 04:50 PM
For ***** and giggles I decided to configure a BTO system of the new normal price and then the same system on education and compare the two against the order I placed one week ago today. (that still hasn’t even been started to be assembled! What the **** is wrong with apple’s BTO system?! - I don’t use it often, the last machine I BTO’d was my beige G3 in 1998)

Here are the results: while the retail price has gone down by a few hundred dollars, the educational price has actually gone UP! I paid $94 less then the prices are now, isn't it interesting that apple began a $50 rebate just after I placed my order?

So basically that $50 rebate is ARTIFICIAL hmmm... Apple really is trying to push it's sales to education... Yet at least the PowerBook's are now MORE expensive!

System I BTO'd
PowerBook (duh)
500 MHz
10 GB HD
128 MB RAM
Everything else stock

NEW Normal $2699
NEW educational $2537
OLD educational - the price I ordered at $2443

Hes Nikke-paid-less-for-TiBook! : now I rely am glad I ordered when I did! AND I still get the free CD burner (in 2 or 3 months) ^_^

WindexMonkey
Aug 25, 2001, 11:51 PM
Price drop no help. Still not enuff green in my pocket for 1.

Hes Nikke
Aug 26, 2001, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by john123
Originally posted by Hes Nikke
System I BTO'd
PowerBook (duh)
500 MHz
10 GB HD
128 MB RAM
Everything else stock

NEW Normal $2699
NEW educational $2537
OLD educational - the price I ordered at $2443

Hes Nikke-paid-less-for-TiBook! : now I rely am glad I ordered when I did! AND I still get the free CD burner (in 2 or 3 months) ^_^


I don't know what the hell you just said (this is the whole English thing again)...but there is no way you got a PowerBook cheaper before the price cut than after. Even if you played around with BTO options. Check your math. [/B]
try it your self! bto that system on educational, you'll see that it comes up at $2537, yet i did order at $2443

facts are facts!

here is a mirror of my order page (209.204.188.180/websites/Fogotten%20Newbies/www/order.shtml), it clearly says that i ordered the above system at $2443, yet when i configure that system on the educational BTO i now get $2537!

[Edited by Hes Nikke on 08-29-2001 at 02:43 AM]

john123
Aug 26, 2001, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by Hes Nikke
Originally posted by john123
Originally posted by Hes Nikke
System I BTO'd
PowerBook (duh)
500 MHz
10 GB HD
128 MB RAM
Everything else stock

NEW Normal $2699
NEW educational $2537
OLD educational - the price I ordered at $2443

Hes Nikke-paid-less-for-TiBook! : now I rely am glad I ordered when I did! AND I still get the free CD burner (in 2 or 3 months) ^_^


I don't know what the hell you just said (this is the whole English thing again)...but there is no way you got a PowerBook cheaper before the price cut than after. Even if you played around with BTO options. Check your math.
try it your self! bto that system on educational, you'll see that it comes up at $2537, yet i did order at $2443

facts are facts!

i could mirror my order if you want me to, it clearly says that i ordered the above system at $2443, yet when i configure that system on the educational BTO i now get $2537! [/B]

"BTO" for Apple is not altogether different from their stock machines.
The "old" institutional price for the PowerBook (400 Mhz) was $2339. That's not for individuals -- that's for school orders only (unless your school had a special deal with Apple whereby faculty, staff, and students could be given that price). It was $3149 for the fully-loaded 500 Mhz.

Now, I want to say that the price to upgrade *just* the processor on the 400 Mhz model was $360, although I am not entirely certain of that. If that were the case, then the old INSTITUTIONAL pricing would have been $2699 -- which is a higher price by a lot than what you quoted. And it'd be higher still for faculty and staff and students.

Anyway, I've been pricing PowerBooks on educational pricing for months now, which is why I still contend that your math doesn't add up. Are you sure you didn't order a refurbished model? I'd love to see that mirrror you offered....

Hes Nikke
Aug 26, 2001, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by john123
Originally posted by Hes Nikke
Originally posted by john123
Originally posted by Hes Nikke
System I BTO'd
PowerBook (duh)
500 MHz
10 GB HD
128 MB RAM
Everything else stock

NEW Normal $2699
NEW educational $2537
OLD educational - the price I ordered at $2443

Hes Nikke-paid-less-for-TiBook! : now I rely am glad I ordered when I did! AND I still get the free CD burner (in 2 or 3 months) ^_^


I don't know what the hell you just said (this is the whole English thing again)...but there is no way you got a PowerBook cheaper before the price cut than after. Even if you played around with BTO options. Check your math.
try it your self! bto that system on educational, you'll see that it comes up at $2537, yet i did order at $2443

facts are facts!

i could mirror my order if you want me to, it clearly says that i ordered the above system at $2443, yet when i configure that system on the educational BTO i now get $2537!

"BTO" for Apple is not altogether different from their stock machines.
The "old" institutional price for the PowerBook (400 Mhz) was $2339. That's not for individuals -- that's for school orders only (unless your school had a special deal with Apple whereby faculty, staff, and students could be given that price). It was $3149 for the fully-loaded 500 Mhz.

Now, I want to say that the price to upgrade *just* the processor on the 400 Mhz model was $360, although I am not entirely certain of that. If that were the case, then the old INSTITUTIONAL pricing would have been $2699 -- which is a higher price by a lot than what you quoted. And it'd be higher still for faculty and staff and students.

Anyway, I've been pricing PowerBooks on educational pricing for months now, which is why I still contend that your math doesn't add up. Are you sure you didn't order a refurbished model? I'd love to see that mirrror you offered.... [/B]

the mirror is up (scroll up)

if i did order a refurbished model (can you BTO those things?!) i'm going to be giveng apple a little phone call when the machine show up, because i didn't ask for a refurb.

the price that i got was from educational personal pricing, the price for a student or teacher for personal use. (i happen to be the former) all i did was log on last week and check prices (i did know that educatioal prices had droped), then i called 1-800-MY-APPLE and walked through the phone system and orderd the machine. then like i said above for ***** and giggles i wnat and checked prices after the retail price drop and wamo i got the higher price.

Hes Nikke
i'm being to lazy to fix my spealing and typos :P

john123
Aug 26, 2001, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by Hes Nikke

the mirror is up (scroll up)

if i did order a refurbished model (can you BTO those things?!) i'm going to be giveng apple a little phone call when the machine show up, because i didn't ask for a refurb.

the price that i got was from educational personal pricing, the price for a student or teacher for personal use. (i happen to be the former) all i did was log on last week and check prices (i did know that educatioal prices had droped), then i called 1-800-MY-APPLE and walked through the phone system and orderd the machine. then like i said above for ***** and giggles i wnat and checked prices after the retail price drop and wamo i got the higher price.

Hes Nikke
i'm being to lazy to fix my spealing and typos :P [/B]

Hmm. I don't know what's up with that. It used to be that for educational personal purchases, the price on the 400 Mhz model was right around what that invoice says you paid. If this is direct from Apple and all, I would suggest that, after you receive your machine, you call Apple and ask what the hell the story was -- because I can tell you that given the best of all possible options on the Apple website, you were not supposed to have been able to spec out a PowerBook with a 500 for anything under $2600.....if they screwed up and gave you too low of a price, go you....and if they sent you a refurb or something, then they should replace it with a new unit *AND* they should do it for the same price (after putting you, Joe Customer, through such an ordeal).

All I'm saying is that you should have the caution flag up. As a person who has been following TiPB prices to buy one when the price is right (and the features are right), something is fishy here.

ThomasB
Aug 26, 2001, 10:12 PM
On August the 18th Apple lowered the price of the PowerBook G4/400 to $2,067 (from $2,443) and the PowerBook G4/500 to $2,819 (from $3,283).

A BTO option on the PowerBook G4/400 was a 500Mhz CPU. This price (as of August 18*) was $376*, yeilding a final price of $2,443.

Once Apple lowered the PowerBook G4 prices for everyone elso the prices came to $2,199 for a G4/400 for only $2067 and $2,999 for the G4/500.

Now a BTO option on the PowerBook G4/400 is an upgrade to a 500Mhz CPU. This price is now $470, raising the price to $2,537.

*I'm not 100% sure of the original CPU option price, or when it changed, but it's close, and it seems to make sense, no?

-ThomasB

john123
Aug 27, 2001, 12:10 AM
So am I getting it right that the BTO "add-on" price somehow increased from $3xx to $4xx for education BTO?

If so, that's really strange...I wouldn't expect a retail price drop to affect the price of add-ons on education. Crazy....

Hes Nikke
Aug 27, 2001, 04:24 AM
ya know i was thinking of it as a stock 500 with a smaller hd and less ram, not a stock 400 with a faster proccessor :)

hell when i ordered it i said '500 mhz, 128 mb, 10 gb' so the person over the phone could have a diffrent system to put in the specs....

one thery i do have though, is maybe just maybe they have better prices for phone orders! the person taking the order does get a commision so maybe the phone orders have better prices so that apple doesn't have to pay as much commision...nah ;)

the thing that has me anoyeed though is that they said '5 days' over the phone, and '5 days' in the email, the order is SILL in the same state as when i mirrored it!!!!! when i called to ask "whats up? why hasn't the machine shown up yet?" (i hadn't noticed the pricing thing yet) on thursday they said that it was in the 2nd state (being assembled) and to expect it in 5 business days! thats still friday!!!! if it doesn't come today i'm gonna be placing another "whats up?" phone call :D

john123
Aug 27, 2001, 11:16 AM
The price has *definitely* gone up to upgrade the processor. That would seem to explain it. The bigger question is: WHY?

An artificial increase in that "upgrade" might also be evidence favoring a revision to the TiBook.

ThlayliTheFierce
Aug 27, 2001, 06:38 PM
Perhaps they are trying to induce people to wait for a new revision? Seems like kind of a strange way to do it.

ThomasB
Aug 27, 2001, 06:41 PM
Apple probally realized how many people were getting the 500 with the smallest hard drive and the least RAM possible and jacked up the price.

john123
Aug 27, 2001, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by ThomasB
Apple probally realized how many people were getting the 500 with the smallest hard drive and the least RAM possible and jacked up the price.

It's possible. You can put a gigabyte of RAM in that thing for roughly $300, and for $100, you can put in a 20 GB harddrive and then turn around and sell your old 10 GB drive to some poor unsuspecting fellow with an older PowerBook.

ThlayliTheFierce
Aug 27, 2001, 06:55 PM
Maybe, in an effort to bring down the cost of the PB, Apple was selling the processors under cost on the BTO screens and taking a hit. Now that they dropped the price, they can put these back up to where they are making more off of them, but still at a lower overall cost.

john123
Aug 27, 2001, 06:57 PM
Apple to use ATi RADEON Mobility 7500 in next PBG4 - 6:51 PM EDT 8/27 - Rumor

According to reliable Apple sources, graphics accelerator maker ATi has convinced the executives in Cupertino to go with its RADEON Mobility 7500 chip for the next-generation Powerbook G4. The Mobility 7500 brings performance and features that the original RADEON Mobility lacked, now surpassing nVIDIA's GeForce2GO. The latter was ATi's primary competitor for the role of the PBG4's new accelerator.
Now that performance and features on ATi's high-end mobile offering exceed nVIDIA's, the race is not even close to the perceived dead heat it had been in with the GeForce2GO over the past several months. The GeF2GO draws twice as much power as the RADEON Mobility, and produces more heat - either of which alone causes significant problems for the Titanium's designers, since the enclosure has virtually no room at all to spare for more cooling or battery power.
Much remains up in the air about the PBG4 revision, but a surprising number of sources think that Apple is playing some kind of game with the press by announcing no new hardware announcements at Apple Expo Paris at the end of September. By not being more clear about the definition of "new hardware" and by not mentioning the other big Apple keynote event in late September, the Seybold Expo which will be keynoted by Apple VP of Marketing, Phil Schiller....Apple has practically said nothing of certainty at all with regards to whether we'll see a new PBG4 soon.
Since the current price cuts on both models of Powerbook are typical of Apple's motions that precede a product revision, we still believe there will be a new PBG4 before Autumn is too long in the teeth....but for now, nobody on the grapevine appears willing to read the entrails as our friends at As The Apple Turns have been known to do ;-)

Hes Nikke
Aug 28, 2001, 02:12 AM
well they FINALY shipped the printer! thogh they included 2 tracking numbers... either it means that i'm getting 2 printers (oh boy i like i needed one in the 1st place...) or they are shipping my USB cablle sepretly! (that would make NO sence, though neither would the 2 printer thing...)

you be the judge, take a look at my apple order status mirror page (http://209.204.188.180/websites/Fogotten%20Newbies/www/order.shtml) ;)

EDIT: cleaned up some redundant redundencies :D

update: OK, apple is toying with me! i mirrored the page with the shipments and all was well and good, then i got an email saying that the printer had shiped (as expected) then i went to the order stats page again just now, and BAM it says that NOTHING has shipped!!! WTF is apple doing with/to my order?! ARG!!!!

in case you can't tell, i REALY want my power book!

upade 2:ok the order status page matches my mirror again :)

[Edited by Hes Nikke on 08-29-2001 at 02:44 AM]

Megaquad
Aug 28, 2001, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by mikebach
I am been waiting to get a PowerBook G4 and now seems to be better then ever with the 500 price cuts. I was waiting to the end of September to see if they were going to introduce a better graphic board and faster speeds. What do you guys think. Get one with the Price drop? or wait till Seybold.

Mike
if you wanna play,wait,rage 8 mb is terrible

ThlayliTheFierce
Aug 28, 2001, 01:04 PM
Yeah, they ship the cable separately. My grandparents just ordered an iMac with the free printer deal, and the cable shipped separate. Lexmark must not bundle a cable with their printer, and Apple doesn't want people to have to go out and buy one, it would defeat their "works out of the box" policy.

chewbaccapits
Aug 28, 2001, 01:29 PM
Nice memory...Nice. I motion to have PC lovers voted out of this forum. Do I hear a second?

Hes Nikke
Aug 28, 2001, 05:36 PM
To Our Valued Apple Customer:

We appreciate your recent Apple Store order. Due to an unexpected supply
delay, we are unable to ship your PowerBook by the date you were originally
quoted. Our goal is to ship your order within the next 3 to 5 business days.
If you provided an email address when you placed your order, you will receive
an email notification once your order has been shipped.

If you would like to change or cancel your order, please contact the Apple
Store Sales Support team at 1-800-676-2775, 7 a.m. to 9 p.m. central time,
Monday through Friday, or 9 a.m. to 6 p.m. central time, Saturday and Sunday.

We appreciate your business and apologize for any inconvenience this delay has
caused you. Thank you for shopping at the Apple Store!

this is just getting anoyeing!

ultrarad
Aug 28, 2001, 11:10 PM
Hey People,


Just got my new powerbook from Clubmac and I'm stoked. I added an airport card and 512M of ram - I'm all ready to have some fun. If you go to Clubmac's website and dig deep enough you can get the 400mhz model for cheaper than Apple's educational discount (minus a free 256 of Ram - that you can add yourself for 59 bucks).
So far i'm really excited......Plus, I can still cash in on the Cd-burner offer - No hassles with apple - *grin*

jefhatfield
Sep 2, 2001, 11:50 AM
it would be great if the prices stayed this low...but most likely it will only be until the new line of PB G4s come out late this year

apple needs to keep prices low if they want to go back to their 10 percent market share of notebooks they had during their brief highpoint in '99-'00 before the pc world abruptly grabbed back a few percent of that with their "faster" speeds and lower prices

the MHz thing may be a myth but the average consumer does not know that like we do so the only thing apple could talk loudly with now is yet lower prices on desktops and notebooks

the $1299.00 dollar ibook was an amazing step in the right direction as sales seem to reflect...now it may be time for a sub-$2000.00 dollar G4 laptop...now that would send a loud message to VAIO and the pc laptop world

john123
Sep 2, 2001, 12:38 PM
One thing I think is getting forgotten here is the role that marketing research plays in Apple's pricing decisions.
Like any company, Apple has a trained team of economists who have determined the elasticities in various markets (i.e., how responsive demand would be to changes in prices). As a company with the goal of making the most money possible, they will of course have set prices at an optimal level. So while we may be following the mantra of "lower prices sell more," that might not be in the corporate interest according to the numbers.

Kela
Sep 3, 2001, 10:58 AM
With all due respect (which I doubt you deserve John123), I would like to say IT IS THE DECADE OF THE CONSUMER, not the producer. So, IT WOULD BE IN CORPORATE INTEREST TO KEEP THE CONSUMER HAPPY, hence low prices is THE KEY.

Duh, according to Varian or Hirschleifer Hirschleifer (probably the source of your high school economics knowledge), profit maximization is the key for any firm. BUT DUHHHHHH, helooooo, we are in a perfectly competitive market here...sooo like umm...low prices is the only way.

spikey
Sep 3, 2001, 11:39 AM
Yeah that sounds correct.
It isnt really just low costs blah, but more of competitively pricing the products, because at the moment macs are just not as good value for money as PCs. Especially the imac, which is really double the price it should be if it wants to compete with other consumer machines.

john123
Sep 3, 2001, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by Kela
With all due respect (which I doubt you deserve John123), I would like to say IT IS THE DECADE OF THE CONSUMER, not the producer. So, IT WOULD BE IN CORPORATE INTEREST TO KEEP THE CONSUMER HAPPY, hence low prices is THE KEY.

Duh, according to Varian or Hirschleifer Hirschleifer (probably the source of your high school economics knowledge), profit maximization is the key for any firm. BUT DUHHHHHH, helooooo, we are in a perfectly competitive market here...sooo like umm...low prices is the only way.

This is really pathetic. "Decade of the consumer"? Please. Economic laws aren't temporally variable. More to the point, your line of logic implies that companies should give away their products for free. Where is this magical dividing line between profit and consumer happiness? In reality, the only reason to keep the consumer happy is toward profit maximization anyway.

Also, "we are in a perfectly competitive market here"? Stud, no we are not. Perfectly competitive markets assume lack of product differentiation (Apple thrives precisely by breaking this assumption), a number of tiny firms (and the market for Macs is anything but this), perfect information (how many consumers do you know that have perfect info? and companies for that matter?) and a host of other things. Sorry, dude, go back to your Econ 101 class.

Kela
Sep 4, 2001, 01:06 AM
John123, ok so I meant competitive market and not "perfect" competition. However, I did not say that Apple should give away their products for free. If you assume such a nonsensical thing then it shows where your level of deduction lies. Additionally, IT IS THE DEDCADE OF THE CONSUMER, and regardless of wether there a re a few firms in the market or many, IF PRICES OF macs are not kept extremely low, AS SPIKEY SAID, the value for money for any mac now is just not as good as the PC. The PCs would always win in terms of market share. SO....Im sure you agree that Apple's CORPORATE INTEREST WOULD BE TO STAY ALIVE AND SURVIVE AND THE ONLY WAY IT CAN DO THAT IS KEEP ITS PRICES LOW (look at the imac example in 1998 and how it saved Apple).

Secondly, what are you on about PRODUCT DIFFERENTIATION? All firms in this industry are selling computers. THAT IS ONE PRODUCT YOU IDIOT. Variations like the imac, cube are just VARIATIONS. Its still one product. (now dont counter this by telling me that Apple sells cofee mugs with Apple logos on it) SO IN ACTUALITY APPLE IS NOT BREAKING THE RULE of product differentiation. LOL! get your facts straight.

- Kela

john123
Sep 4, 2001, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by Kela
John123, ok so I meant competitive market and not "perfect" competition. However, I did not say that Apple should give away their products for free. If you assume such a nonsensical thing then it shows where your level of deduction lies. Additionally, IT IS THE DEDCADE OF THE CONSUMER, and regardless of wether there a re a few firms in the market or many, IF PRICES OF macs are not kept extremely low, AS SPIKEY SAID, the value for money for any mac now is just not as good as the PC. The PCs would always win in terms of market share. SO....Im sure you agree that Apple's CORPORATE INTEREST WOULD BE TO STAY ALIVE AND SURVIVE AND THE ONLY WAY IT CAN DO THAT IS KEEP ITS PRICES LOW (look at the imac example in 1998 and how it saved Apple).

Secondly, what are you on about PRODUCT DIFFERENTIATION? All firms in this industry are selling computers. THAT IS ONE PRODUCT YOU IDIOT. Variations like the imac, cube are just VARIATIONS. Its still one product. (now dont counter this by telling me that Apple sells cofee mugs with Apple logos on it) SO IN ACTUALITY APPLE IS NOT BREAKING THE RULE of product differentiation. LOL! get your facts straight.

- Kela


It's starting to seem that you are comatose. First, the point I was making (which clearly sailed over your head, or perhaps it hit you square in the forehead and cold-cocked you) is that you make no delineation between "low prices" and "giving products away for free." Sure, it's all well and dandy to say that a producer should offer products for "low prices," but the truth is that neither you nor I nor anyone in any of these forums for that matter can really tell you what low is. Were the prices on the TiBook 2 weeks ago low? What about now? What about if it dropped another $200? The point is that you can't delineate between what's high and what's low and what's giving away the farm. Which leads to the bigger point that I originally discussed (and that you still aren't quite seeming to grasp): it is likely the case that, as of this moment, dropping prices even more is not in Apple's "corporate interest." I'm sorry, Kela, but despite Apple's utter stupidity when it comes to making business decisions, I have just a bit more faith in their marketing teams' ability to set prices than you. It is, after all, their livelihood...and frankly, they're in Cupertino and we're here. That's about the best and only credential they need.

Now, moving on to your second point (and encompassing the second part of your first point), the precise reason that Apple can keep prices a bit higher than comparable PCs -- and the reason that Apple *has always* kept its prices a bit on the high side -- is that it does differentiate its products from the rest of the industry. You are correct in saying that all firms in the industry are selling computers, but where you're offbase is by saying that "Variations like the imac, cube are just VARIATIONS. Its still one product." Product differentiation is a within-industry phenomenon, not a within-firm phenomenon. Translation? Apple offers a product that's a little different than that from other computer makers. It's the classic economic case of a company taking one product (in this case, computers) and doing something to it to make it stand out from the competition (in this case, "Appleizing" computers with G4s and cool designs and such). Ultimately, the point is that we, in the end, pay a price for our Macs precisely because they aren't PCs. This is intelligent product differentiation on Apple's part; if they built just another Wintel box and charged the same prices, they would obviously go out of business. But, they don't, and thus they haven't, and thus we're here.

spikey
Sep 4, 2001, 10:02 AM
no, u r wrong.

Apple keeps prices higher because the powerpc chip is more expensive to make, or so i hear.
And anyway, compared to PCs Macs just aint good value for money.
So blahdey blah end of convo.

Kela
Sep 4, 2001, 11:55 AM
"if they built just another Wintel box and charged the same prices, they would obviously go out of business. But, they don't, and thus they haven't, and thus we're here"
---originally posted by John123



I would like to say John123 that Apple HAS SURVIVED today BECAUSE OF ITS I-MAC. Do you agree with me or not? Without the intro of the imac in '98, Apple would have sooner or later have become insolvent. So it was indeed the cheap imac which was comparable to PC computer prices that saved apple. (if the imac line did not exist today, please tell me who would buy the expensive G4s except pros?????) Also SPIKEYs point about Apple's computers being WAY more expensive to produce is valid. The G4 costs more than the pentium to produce. agreed or not?

p.s John123, I never once said that Apple should give products away for free. I dont even know why you brought that up.

john123
Sep 4, 2001, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by spikey
no, u r wrong.

Absolutely not. Besides, if you are going to call someone wrong, you have to back it up with evidence.

john123
Sep 4, 2001, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by Kela
"if they built just another Wintel box and charged the same prices, they would obviously go out of business. But, they don't, and thus they haven't, and thus we're here"
---originally posted by John123



I would like to say John123 that Apple HAS SURVIVED today BECAUSE OF ITS I-MAC. Do you agree with me or not? Without the intro of the imac in '98, Apple would have sooner or later have become insolvent. So it was indeed the cheap imac which was comparable to PC computer prices that saved apple. (if the imac line did not exist today, please tell me who would buy the expensive G4s except pros?????) Also SPIKEYs point about Apple's computers being WAY more expensive to produce is valid. The G4 costs more than the pentium to produce. agreed or not?

p.s John123, I never once said that Apple should give products away for free. I dont even know why you brought that up.

By and large, I think we agree on most counts here. Yes, the iMac saved Apple's butt...but the reason why it did so was more than the fact that it was just price-competitive with PC's. It was an innovative design (and this is the product differentiation thing) that caught people's eyes. But, at the same time, there are a bunch of "Mac loyalists" out there -- lots of us in these forums, in fact. I'm not a pro; I don't do graphic design or anything like that. But I will happily buy a Mac over a cruddy PC any day because it is a Mac. We're like a cult and willing to pay our pseudo-membership fee for that right.

You're also right that the G4 is a pricier chip, both on the production side and on the sale side to Apple. But that difference (cost of G4-cost of P4 or Athlon or whatever) does not equal the price difference between G4s and PCs. It's still too big.

spikey
Sep 4, 2001, 01:42 PM
u r wrong, again.

Look at the rest of that post you blind git, you will see that i am right and you are wrong.

I think the problem with macs today is the vaue for money is just not good enough.
This is because the value for money of PCs over the past few years has dramatically increased, a top of the range PC a few years ago would cost £2500, nowadays the prices have dropped to around £1200 (mainly because of the chip battle between AMD and intel)
But because macs are more expensive to make then they cannot keep up with that trend.
I think this will change as soon as Apple bring a 64bit chip to the consumer or pro market, seeing as no PC company can get to grips with making a good 64bit chip with good flops ratings.

john123
Sep 4, 2001, 03:03 PM
Spikey loves his cannibus.

spikey
Sep 4, 2001, 03:39 PM
Very true john, very true. But so would you if you had mates in soho.

But im afraid what i said in that last post was correct.

john123
Sep 4, 2001, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by spikey
Very true john, very true. But so would you if you had mates in soho.

But im afraid what i said in that last post was correct.

Yeah, except that I'm wrong. See, this is one of those cases in which we can both be right because we're not saying things that contradict each other. You get?

spikey
Sep 4, 2001, 03:45 PM
yes, yes i do.

Or maybe its just this aftershocks giving me a false sense of self esteem.

Kela
Sep 5, 2001, 02:21 AM
Are we all friends now?

spikey
Sep 5, 2001, 08:15 AM
Yes i suppose we are. But dont get carried away, this isnt a disney film you know.

Megaquad
Sep 5, 2001, 09:25 AM
"are we friends now?"
"this isnt a disney film u know"

whatta gagnsters.. :-))

Kela
Sep 6, 2001, 01:08 AM
People, no sense in fighting over differences in opinion.