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Freg3000
Jul 7, 2003, 12:05 AM
Adobe has released a new version of Premiere for Windows XP, but not for OS X. Adobe says that they don't see a market for a 3rd party application since Apple had already satisfied the Mac market.

http://macminute.com/2003/07/07/premiere

Apple says that their relationship has not been damaged because of this.

DreaminDirector
Jul 7, 2003, 12:43 AM
Premiere was a great little app. I learned on it before I switched over to FCP3. Kinda sad to see it go, but hell, there's really nothing that can compare to FCP3 or now (when I get the money) FCP4.

R.I.P. Premiere.

photohead
Jul 7, 2003, 12:55 AM
I second that R.I.P premiere! FCP4 Rules though ;)

applefan
Jul 7, 2003, 12:56 AM
I suspected this would happen when Apple released FC Express. With imovie, FC Express, and FC Pro, Apple has all the levels covered. Not a big enough niche left for Premiere I guess. I understand Adobe's decision, but still hate to see less options for Mac users.

solvs
Jul 7, 2003, 01:58 AM
You can still buy Premier 6.5 (OS X compatible), if you wanted. Though I don't know why you would. I don't blame them, there's no need for it on the Mac. I don't think we have to worry about Photoshop or Illustrator anytime soon, though.

Adobe does seem to be filling a big hole in Windows software. I still don't want to edit video on my PC. It's such a pain.

tjwett
Jul 7, 2003, 02:38 AM
i guess it's kind of sad, only to see Adobe not being the one-time Mac mega partner it once was. but i always hated Premiere. i used After Effects as an editor until moving to Final Cut just to avoid Premiere. oh well, R.I.P.

Megaquad
Jul 7, 2003, 04:55 AM
Read about it here (http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/top_news_item.cfm?NewsID=6558)

The decision reflects Apple's success in the digital video market with Final Cut Pro. "Around 80-90 per cent of our Premiere customers are on Windows," Kilisky said. "There was around a 70 per cent Windows, 30 per cent Mac split before Final Cut Pro."


"Final Cut Pro cut the business in half," he added. "It's unfortunate for those left behind - we'll be happy to upgrade them to the Windows version," he said.

gwuMACaddict
Jul 7, 2003, 05:14 AM
after using final cut for the first time a month ago, it comes as no surprise at all to me

dermeister
Jul 7, 2003, 05:14 AM
Yeah I was wondering how the hell Abobe could keep it's premiere app going when FCP beats the crap out of it.

//Most predictible thing ever

cc bcc
Jul 7, 2003, 05:23 AM
I guess everyone saw this coming, at least I did. It can never compete with FCP.

maka
Jul 7, 2003, 05:26 AM
I really hope the G5 is succesful and things like this stop happening... If Apple looses Adobe, It's going to be one big hit...

tazznb
Jul 7, 2003, 05:31 AM
I hope nothing bad comes of this.

MOM
Jul 7, 2003, 05:31 AM
Well, that makes sense.

The downside is that this will more likely split the two platforms further for Premier users. A window's premier user may be less likely to switch if switching ment also changing an app they have become used to using. On the upside, this shows how good FCP is that it has essentially killed the competition.

MacSlut
Jul 7, 2003, 05:42 AM
I guess we knew it was going to happen, but this still sucks big time.

How much have I invested in Premiere software and time spent learning the app?

While I like Final Cut Pro, at $1,000 (plus learning curve) it was a bit overkill for home use. Final Cut Express is nice at $99, but not capable of a lot of things that Premiere could do. At $550, Premiere was a decent product.

While it sucks that Apple is stepping on major developers, a lot of the blame has to be placed on Adobe...especially their marketing department. Actually it was a lack of synergy between marketing, biz dev and engineering.

Premiere was waaaay first to market and in wide spread cross platform use while Final Cut was Macromedia vaporware.

Apple seized upon the opportunity to market a product that was designed for the digital hub as well as professional media production. Premiere could've done the same thing. It was one product for all uses with no marketing for anything specific. Apple has iMovie for families to make DVDs, Final Cut Express for amateur video production and Final Cut Pro for professionals.

When Apple purchased Final Cut, Adobe should've picked up SoundEdit, but no...instead they gave crappy/buggy updates.

Ironically, this weekend I've been using Final Cut and Premiere all day switching between the two. I haven't had an application crash all weekend (or for that matter all month)...it's kinda creepy actually to use your Mac with no crashes...geez, I remember the days when firing up Premiere meant keeping one hand on the Power button to restart the whole friggin machine.

I was just thinking how *both* these apps are so solid now that it makes digital video editing a whole different experience. Ironic that I find Premiere nirvana the weekend before its death.

Now, if Apple could only kill off Photoshop and the rest of MS Office...

iGav
Jul 7, 2003, 05:57 AM
Originally posted by MacSlut
Now, if Apple could only kill off Photoshop and the rest of MS Office...

I can never imagine Photoshop being toppled... other companies have tried it, and failed...

That said, if Apple took Photoshop and then added features from Painter and combined them all in a super-art-design package, that fully supported PS files etc etc.... then judging by Apples recent software record, it might just work.... you never know... :D

It'd be one hell of a risk though...

h'biki
Jul 7, 2003, 06:53 AM
Pretty much every mac user I know who used to use premiere now uses FCP or FCE - its market share has been complete erroded by a far superior product.

But this is potentially troubling news - what if Adobe killed After Effects and Photoshop for Mac?

I predict one of two things:

1. Steve buys Adobe just to spite them. (I havne't checked market capitalisation so I have no idea if its possible).

2. Apple announces its own Photoshop/AE killer (and I'm labout 90% sure they have one in development - they need to) which will be one of two things:

a) Based on GIMP (and its FilmGIMP variation). They'll tighten up the code, provide a supertight GUI.

b) Based on Shake. Shake has superior colour tools (32bit floating point internally), a superior workflow (if you get your head around the procedural aspect) and market awareness.

Either way, it'll underprice Photoshop and AE by at least 50% and be at least 200% faster cause Adobe's code sucks total ass.

rjstanford
Jul 7, 2003, 07:02 AM
Originally posted by h'biki
Pretty much every mac user I know who used to use premiere now uses FCP or FCE - its market share has been complete erroded by a far superior product.

But this is potentially troubling news - what if Adobe killed After Effects and Photoshop for Mac?

...

[Apple will] underprice Photoshop and AE by at least 50% and be at least 200% faster cause Adobe's code sucks total ass. That's the real problem. Adobe has been used to not much competition (well, unless you count Corel) for years now. Photoshop, Illustrator, et al are nice, but not as advanced as they could or even, dare I say, should be. It would be wonderful if Adobe would buck up their products under the face of competition rather than folding them (its not like FCP is free with Mac OS X or anything after all), but that's their decision to make.

They may well be reaching the point where most of their software has reached a maturity level that makes it hard to work with. Large, complex, stable applications tend to resist large-scale changes. Maybe Adobe needs to be working on the next Photoshop killer -- but this seems to be a very hard step for a software house to take (ignoring the pressure to reuse old modules, etc).

Ah, well. Time will tell...

-Richard

bikertwin
Jul 7, 2003, 07:03 AM
Apple is attacking from the graphics side and Microsoft wants their PDF business, which is actually their most profitable business right now.

Longey Nowze
Jul 7, 2003, 07:04 AM
well... this is good cuz it means FCP is a much much better app, but losing any app can never be a good thing IMHO more apps are better, look how many crappy apps wintel has!

thank you
MaT

Mr. Anderson
Jul 7, 2003, 07:07 AM
Originally posted by iGAV
That said, if Apple took Photoshop and then added features from Painter and combined them all in a super-art-design package, that fully supported PS files etc etc.... then judging by Apples recent software record, it might just work.... you never know... :D

They'd have to offer it at really low prices or make it an iApp first - upgrading to the pro version down the road.

You ship something that competes with Photoshop Elements for free and you'll get a lot of people interested....

As for Premiere - I used it a long time ago - FCP is so much nicer. It makes sense that Adobe stops development for the mac, but as long as they can make money that justifies further development on other apps, I don't see why any other Adobe products would ever follow suit.

D

MrMickS
Jul 7, 2003, 07:20 AM
Not really news. Premier on the Mac has been dying for years.

Adobe will continue to develop Photoshop, InDesign etc whilst it is profitable for them to do so. If someone comes along with a better product than Photoshop should we care about Adobe?

robotrenegade
Jul 7, 2003, 07:29 AM
Premiere sucks anyhow.

hvfsl
Jul 7, 2003, 07:33 AM
There already is a better product than PhotoShop, Corels Painter. Most of the PC mags are saying it is better as well. It is just PhotoShop is now a standard like M$ Office and will take a long time for someone to beat it. Premier was not really a standard and it had a lot of competion on the Macs and PCs.

Sabenth
Jul 7, 2003, 07:40 AM
want evidence at how good FCP read this...


Local Mac Man talks about FCP AND FOOTIE (http://new.theage.com.au/articles/2003/06/25/1056449291703.html) Its about how FCP Is used on a cable channel now its got to be a good sign of what FCP Is doing.. to premier

748s
Jul 7, 2003, 07:42 AM
Avid is releasing a free dv edit system this year. it will take a chunk out of the PC premiere market. premiere could be killed off in a year or two. premiere was an example of too little too late.

copperpipe
Jul 7, 2003, 07:49 AM
This was a simple business decision, nothing more, nothing less. Adobe will always have it's major Graphics Apps for the Mac - they are making lots of money with them. Photoshop is king, and it will not be toppled, it's way too embedded, and it's way too good! Apple will not try and replace photoshop with it's own, that would be an act of suicide!

copperpipe
Jul 7, 2003, 07:54 AM
Listen, Painter does things in a totally different way than Photoshop. They are two programs that take digital imaging manipulation in two different directions. There is NO WAY you can say that Painter is better than Photoshop and worthy of replacing it. They're just different. Personally, I love them both, and use them daily, and I hope they stay separate, because otherwise it will become one big bloated mess!

Pablo
Jul 7, 2003, 07:58 AM
Not good for a few reasons that I can think of:

1) Another step by Adobe away from the Mac platform. If they were to pull Photoshop away from Apple, I assume a large number of Mac users would have no choice but to move to the Wintel platform.

2) Lack of competition. With less competitive products, there is less incentive for programs like Final Cut Pro/Express to innovate.


In itself, the loss of Premiere on the Mac platform may be relatively insignificant, but if the trend continues, it will definitely hurt Apple.

I returned to Apple (after about 15 years) three months ago. I absolutely love working in OS X, but without Photoshop, I doubt I would continue to invest in Apple's products.

zim
Jul 7, 2003, 08:03 AM
Personally, I had drooped Premier upon the first time ever using Final Cut, I even found that basic video editing was faster and more productive in iMovie then Premiere, no spilt milk here.

I don't ever see Adobe removing Photoshop or Illustrator or even any of the page layout applications form the mac. There is just too many users, legal users.

Moxiemike
Jul 7, 2003, 08:17 AM
Originally posted by Pablo
Not good for a few reasons that I can think of:

1) Another step by Adobe away from the Mac platform. If they were to pull Photoshop away from Apple, I assume a large number of Mac users would have no choice but to move to the Wintel platform.

2) Lack of competition. With less competitive products, there is less incentive for programs like Final Cut Pro/Express to innovate.


In itself, the loss of Premiere on the Mac platform may be relatively insignificant, but if the trend continues, it will definitely hurt Apple.

I returned to Apple (after about 15 years) three months ago. I absolutely love working in OS X, but without Photoshop, I doubt I would continue to invest in Apple's products.

You're jumping the gun here. You're already assuming that they're going to kill PS for Mac, and that's incredibly naive. They don't need crap like that photo album thing for Mac (iPhoto and iView as competitors) and they SURELY don't need Premiere, with FCP and to a lesser extent, FCE being much more integrated and developed products.

I think this is gonna allow Adobe to focus more on their OSX releases for Mac-- PS 8 is gonna be OSX only. And that's a good sign. I think Adobe understands how much $$ there is to be made selling even only Illustrator, PS and Indesign on Mac. And they're not gonna risk that cash cow. Ever.

gopher
Jul 7, 2003, 08:19 AM
Adobe didn't do enough to optimize their code for Altivec. While the Altivec webpage on Apple shows Premier as an Altivec optimized application, benchmark after benchmark showed no advantage to Premier's tools using Altivec. Adobe lost interest in Premier on the Mac at least a year ago. Thank goodness Apple now has the cheaper Final Cut Express.

jbrown
Jul 7, 2003, 08:46 AM
no more IE for mac, and now no more Premier--tread careful Steve, we don't want this to become a habit --

Pablo
Jul 7, 2003, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by Moxiemike
You're jumping the gun here. You're already assuming that they're going to kill PS for Mac, and that's incredibly naive. They don't need crap like that photo album thing for Mac (iPhoto and iView as competitors) and they SURELY don't need Premiere, with FCP and to a lesser extent, FCE being much more integrated and developed products.

No, I'm not.

Originally posted by Pablo
Not good for a few reasons that I can think of:

1) Another step by Adobe away from the Mac platform. If they were to pull Photoshop away from Apple, I assume a large number of Mac users would have no choice but to move to the Wintel platform.

Jeff Harrell
Jul 7, 2003, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by MacSlut
Final Cut Express is nice at $99, but not capable of a lot of things that Premiere could do.Final Cut Express is $299, not $99, and from what I can tell it does everything Final Cut Pro 3 did, though only in DV format. I haven't used Premiere for... what... seven years? What can it do that FCE can't? Other than be resolution-independent, of course; for that you need FCP.

MhzDoesMatter
Jul 7, 2003, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by gopher
Thank goodness Apple now has the cheaper Final Cut Express.

It's not like Final Cut Express of Final Cut were really in the same competitive space. FCP began its run as an Apple application already better than Premiere with a price to match. FCE, not so much and its borderline swap-meet cost made it seem like an "Elements." That means that the market in general needed more than what Premiere was offering if there was a more than gradual shift to FCP despite its higher cost.

Originally posted by h'biki
But this is potentially troubling news - what if Adobe killed After Effects and Photoshop for Mac?

We have to stop pretending that these companies are these personal entities that make business decisions based on emotional temper tantrums. How in the world could Adobe justify killing off any of these products for the platform?

What you have to realize is, the only companies who can make threats of retaliation in such are the ones with actual power to do so. And when your survival as a company depends on your current cash income, you don't have that power, especially when that income is from the product in question.

Adobe doesn't have the power to retaliate against Apple by ceasing development on those two programs because they need the revenue from those programs' sales, no matter how much smaller than PC version sales it maybe. They aren't in the best of financial situations. And I'm sure Apple took all of that into consideration when they were in the planning phase of even acquiring FCP. (Basic risk analysis)

When someone like Apple or Microsoft pushes you around a little but doesn't actually take your lunch money, you end up just rolling with the punches and finding somewhere else to sit.


-Hertz

Moxiemike
Jul 7, 2003, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by Pablo
I returned to Apple (after about 15 years) three months ago. I absolutely love working in OS X, but without Photoshop, I doubt I would continue to invest in Apple's products.

Sounds like you feel like Photoshop is next on the chopping block from this line. ;)

Seriously though, it's a general fault of this forum to jump to conclusions. And it's ok. It's the stuff of rumor legends.

But hear this: Adobe will NEVER cut PS for Mac until Apple develops Photo Studio Pro or Dark Room Pro or a competing editor. ;)

I remember when iPhoto was in the works-- everyone thought Adobe was holding off releasing PS7 for OSX because of it. hehe

Pedro Estarque
Jul 7, 2003, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by jbrown
no more IE for mac, and now no more Premier--tread careful Steve, we don't want this to become a habit --

Couldn't agree more, doesn't matter if FCP is better ( which is ), the more apps the better. Competition and different price ranges can only be a good thing

patrick0brien
Jul 7, 2003, 09:24 AM
-All

I seem to recall a press release from Adobe last year about how they were done developing Premeir for the Mac due to the fact that FCP3 was kicking the tar out of them - and that was before FCX was announced.

Kid Red
Jul 7, 2003, 09:28 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by hvfsl
[B]There already is a better product than PhotoShop, Corels Painter. Most of the PC mags are saying it is better as well. It is just PhotoShop is now a standard like M$ Office and will take a long time for someone to beat it.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Right.

pgwalsh
Jul 7, 2003, 09:29 AM
Does Apple offer an Upgrade to FCP from Premiere?

I have After Affects and Premiere and I thought I'd love to try FCP... I can't afford to do that right now... Not that I have an immediate switch, but I'd like to update it when I buy a G5.

I'd hate to have all my mulitmedia tools on my Mac and then have premire on my pc... that would be switching in the wrong direction....

nuckinfutz
Jul 7, 2003, 09:34 AM
Premiere has just been getting Demolished.

Adobe's problem is that they have their Crown Jewel...Photoshop. It is irreplaceable. Illustrator and Indesign are not. Premiere and After Effects can easily be replaced by FCP and Combustion.

Adobe has not done a good job competing in other apps beyond Photoshop and Indesign. Had they focused on Digital Video...AE and Premiere wouldn't have fallen so far behind.

Adobe...you MUST compete. No ones going to buy your products just because they think you're a great company. Get a fire under your azz fellas.

wheezl
Jul 7, 2003, 09:41 AM
Premier was such an awful and underpowered application from day one. It was extremely buggy and thus extremely unstable in every release. Luckily it was equally crappy on both Windows and the Macintosh... even with a new version for Windows XP it gets it's butt kicked all over the place by Vegas Video which is a vastly superior peice of software.

Goodbye Premier, Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

obeygiant
Jul 7, 2003, 09:56 AM
Good! Premiere Sucks A$$.
FCP blew it out of the water the day it had multiple sequences per project.

rest in peace, Premiere.

Keynoteuser
Jul 7, 2003, 10:17 AM
Final Cut Express is $299, not $99, and from what I can tell it does everything Final Cut Pro 3 did, though only in DV format. I haven't used Premiere for... what... seven years? What can it do that FCE can't? Other than be resolution-independent, of course; for that you need FCP.

Not even close. I can tell you've never used FCP...or at least not to it's fullest capabilities. FCE is REALLY stripped down. No keyframinig of effects is a big thing. You can't even Keyframe things like text tracking. You can't keyframe thngs like opacity, or at least not easily as you can in FCP. Moving from FCE to FCP might not be too bad, but moving from FCP to FCE is darn near impossible because you can't FIND anything. Plus, with version 4, you've got a pile of extra apps that don't ship with FCE.

So, those who wonder just WHY FCP is $700 more than FCE...trust me, with what you get, Apple could have made FCP $1499 and it STILL would have been a steal.

But since FCP is only a few hundred more than Premiere...it makes sense to just move to it. There's a LOT more power in FCP.

Windowlicker
Jul 7, 2003, 10:17 AM
adobe's trying to make money, so if they can't sell enough premiere, it's quite reasonable to drop it. I don't think we mac folks really even need it anymore since we have a good (better?) alternative.

this doesn't touch me much though as I do very little video editing (done only one 6 minute film, and it was with iMovie 3).

hvfsl
Jul 7, 2003, 10:19 AM
The only real problem with Adobe's anouncement is that the Wintel press is going to be all over this story and the cancellation of IE for Mac and say it is the beginning of the end for Apple. This would then influence buyers which might decrease Apple's sales. I get Macworld and PCW, which has stuff about Macs, Windows and Linux (although mainly Windows). I normally find it fairly good on promoting Macs as being easy to use etc, but even they were making a big deal out of now IE for the Mac.

P-Worm
Jul 7, 2003, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by pgwalsh
Does Apple offer an Upgrade to FCP from Premiere?

I have After Affects and Premiere and I thought I'd love to try FCP... I can't afford to do that right now... Not that I have an immediate switch, but I'd like to update it when I buy a G5.

I'd hate to have all my mulitmedia tools on my Mac and then have premire on my pc... that would be switching in the wrong direction....

You sound like the perect person for Final Cut Express. I've never used the program, but if it is anything like Final cut Pro, I'm sure that I would love it.

However, if there is ANY way that you can get Final Cut Pro, do it. The upgrade to 4 was huge (and that is an understatement). You essentially have about 4 programs all coming in one package. Final Cut Pro is no olonger and editing application, it's a freakin' video suite.

P-Worm

Freg3000
Jul 7, 2003, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by jbrown
no more IE for mac, and now no more Premier--tread careful Steve, we don't want this to become a habit --

Yes, Steve. Be careful, and don't let Apple's recent success rush to your head. You can't do everything . Well, at least not yet. :)

avus
Jul 7, 2003, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by hvfsl
The only real problem with Adobe's anouncement is that the Wintel press is going to be all over this story and the cancellation of IE for Mac and say it is the beginning of the end for Apple. This would then influence buyers which might decrease Apple's sales.

Sad but true. Read what CNET said about this news:

Adobe Systems plans to announce new versions of its video-editing software Monday, including a Windows-only application that marks another high-profile defection from Apple Computer's Macintosh operating system.

Another high-profile defection? BTW, Adobe did pull that stupid "PC preferred" page after the G5 was announced... correct?

copperpipe
Jul 7, 2003, 10:58 AM
Photoshop will always be available for the Mac.

ANYWAY,

I don't know too much about video editing, but it seems to me that the lines have been drawn:

if you want to do mediocre video editing using an inferior product - go wintel

if you want to do the best video editing using the right product - go Mac

Especially with the G5 around the corner...

am I right?

MasterX (OSiX)
Jul 7, 2003, 11:04 AM
my friend just built a PC with a hardware premiere card, I tried to get him to switch to mac pleanty of times. All my PC using video editing friends joke about his copy of premiere being the only one that doesn't crash, as all of theirs are bootleg.

It's been my experience that Premiere has a very MacOS 7 feel to it. For those of us who actually remember OS7 it was really quite bare bones straight forward using. Premiere just feels that way to me, maybe because we probably had OS7 when it came out. heh.

Personally I can't wait to get my hands on FCP4 (running FCP3 now) and I was only motivated to go to FCP once i realized apple was all over the place with iMovie. No iMovie for OSX has ever worked perfectly. iMovie2 for OS 9 was the best. iM2X had timeline issues and rendering problems. iMovie3 is quite slow on my mac which used to run iMovie 1 and 2 perfectly. Plus not even my brother's 1ghz 17" Powerbook can play back a movie in iMovie3 with lots of sub-second clips. Damn it apple I loved iMovie, but now i get to learn to love FCP. Ehh, worse things have happened, right? :)

MasterX (OSiX)
Jul 7, 2003, 11:08 AM
One note. Another one of my friends had always been using Premiere until it crapepd out on him (had a very impresive project, and Premiere wouldn't let him export it after it rendered, what a shame) So he finally got a mac, a DVD-R eMac. He loves that thing so much now, he rants about OSX superiority almost as much as I do now...

trebblekicked
Jul 7, 2003, 11:28 AM
no one is surprised by the axing of premiere. no one should be. i do wonder where the competition will come from on the apple front, but i don't necessarilly think that will slow development. FCP4 answered problems exposed by users, not competitors. provided apple keeps listenng to user feedback, FCP will continue to innovate and lead the pack.

on a side note, after effects isn't really in trouble, IMO. It's price point and package works in the apple market for now.

patrick0brien
Jul 7, 2003, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by MasterX (OSiX)
He loves that thing so much now, he rants about OSX superiority almost as much as I do now...

-MasterX

Get him to register here!

PowerBook User
Jul 7, 2003, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by jbrown
no more IE for mac, and now no more Premier--tread careful Steve, we don't want this to become a habit --
I couldn't agree more. Losing Premier is not terrible, but if we keep losing apps, that could become a problem. Is Premier even any good on Windows?

XnavxeMiyyep
Jul 7, 2003, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by Moxiemike
...

I think this is gonna allow Adobe to focus more on their OSX releases for Mac-- PS 8 is gonna be OSX only.

...
Does that mean it's not gonna be for Windows?

ibookin'
Jul 7, 2003, 12:05 PM
A little example of just how good FCP is:

My school's IT department wanted to get everyone on the campus migrated over to Dells running WinXP, so they asked the broadcasting department to justify keeping their Mac G4s. The tech guy there said something I will never forget, which was "I'll take any machine that can run Final Cut Pro"

And that was that. They still have their Mac G4s and are still running FCP.

ibookin'
Jul 7, 2003, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by XnavxeMiyyep
Does that mean it's not gonna be for Windows?

I think it means that it will be OS X and Windows only, with no OS 9 support.

Having no PS for Windows would probably be a really, really, really good thing for Apple.

Silencio
Jul 7, 2003, 12:07 PM
I would have been much more alarmed had Adobe dropped After Effects for the Mac, but they, in fact, announced the new After Effects with all the OpenGL enhancements for OS X (only?).

Adobe is showing good business acumen to not develop packages for the Mac where Apple's own offerings are really strong (and naturally, PC pundits like Roger Kay automatically spin the issue like it's a bad thing for Apple). Is anyone really crying about Adobe Encore not coming to the Mac when we've already got DVD Studio Pro 2? OTOH, After Effects still has a good niche mostly to itself - Shake is priced and targeted at another astral plane.

Avid is still around for both Mac and Wintel. When the heck is Avid Free going to actually ship, though?

None of this news hurt Apple's stock so far today: it's back up over 20 now.

soosy
Jul 7, 2003, 12:08 PM
Kinda strange Adobe would let Premiere for Mac roll over and die instead of beefing it up to compete with FCP. If it was Microsoft or Quark who was beating them would they just give up? I guess it's just that FCP is Mac only so they can still attempt to rule the Win market.

TMJ1974
Jul 7, 2003, 12:29 PM
I can understand how everyone prefers FCE/FCP, and I do as well, HOWEVER, I enjoyed having Premiere on the Mac so that I could do projects on my PC as well. Speaking of which, my PC is only a month old....I bought it because certain Macromedia products are Windows only.

Apple does make great products, but, I like having a choice. As much as I like Apple, I don't want them responsible for everything on the computer. Hardware and OS and some good apps are nice, but I switched from Windows to get away from a monopoly.

In the end, people will buy the computer their programs are made for. For example, Mr X has been using Premier forever on the PC and now wants to switch...."is Premiere available for my G5...not anymore" his choice would be spend $200 or so for an upgrade or $999 for a copy of FCP, plus his new G5...would you switch ?

I really support Apple's quest for good, honest and usually better products....but, killing off the competition is very like what I was trying to get away from.

Tim

solvs
Jul 7, 2003, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by PowerBook User
Is Premier even any good on Windows?

In my experiance, no.

I know everyone's is going to be ringing the death nell for Apple now ("oh no, first the crappy browser, now the crappy video edtior"), but we know better. As mentioned, a new version of After Effects has been released. OS X compatible. Not only does it look better and is much faster, but I think it's cheaper.

Adobe would be crazy to drop the Mac platform. Photoshop (especially the Mac version) is still it's flagship product, even if the .PDF stuff is it's bread and butter right now. Not many Pro image editors will want to go PC. They'll just stick with old versions over upgrading all their hardware and software to add a few shortcuts and features they could probably get with third-parties anyway. My sister being one of them.

You can do audio/video/image editing on a PC (I have, unfortunetly). But even if things are a little faster (debatable), it is much easier on a Mac.

Besides, remember the uproar over Quark going PC only. If that happened, you wouldn't see more PC users. You would've seen more InDesign users. ;)

solvs
Jul 7, 2003, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by TMJ1974
In the end, people will buy the computer their programs are made for. For example, Mr X has been using Premier forever on the PC and now wants to switch...."is Premiere available for my G5...not anymore" his choice would be spend $200 or so for an upgrade or $999 for a copy of FCP, plus his new G5...would you switch ?

I really support Apple's quest for good, honest and usually better products....but, killing off the competition is very like what I was trying to get away from.


Again, you can still buy Premier 6.5 (OS X compatible). Or Final Cut Express for around Premiers upgrade price. Speaking from experiance, anyone going from Premier on a PC is going to want to switch FOR Final Cut.

Shoot, sometimes I'd take iMovie over anything on the PC side.

Competition is good. We wouldn't want to see Apple stagnate. But I doubt they are going to make the same mistakes Quark and Adobe have been making and let someone come out with something competitve while they're sitting on their hands. At least not any time soon.

Apple bought Final Cut from Macromedia (who were doing nothing with it) and made it competitive. FCP was more expensive, but better than Premier. Adobe could have fought back, but instead they gave in. And I don't blame them for discontinuing it.

This isn't exactly like M$ where they just steal everything from the competition and release an inferior product.

When Apple steals something, at least they have the decency to release a better product. ;) (though, most of the time, they do seem more to buy or license stuff... not steal it. most of the time)

BaghdadBob
Jul 7, 2003, 01:17 PM
Well, I haven't done any video editing at all, so I don't have any specific product opinions myself, but I'm going to blab anyway.

Think Team Rocket:

Apple no longer has competition, which may make them lazy "That's bad..."

They can now sell more copies of FCP, theoretically, especially with rocking new hardware "That's good!"

It looks bad for them to lose major apps "That's bad..."

It may also give FCP recognition as a product so good it drove Adobe off the platform "That's good!"

Professionals who are too attached to Premiere may backswitch "That's bad..."

With all this attention to FCP, perhaps it will garner enough recognition, with new hardware and a G5 Optimized new version, to cause more switchers to G5s "That's good!!!"

Anyway. What I want to know is, if Mac users make up only 10-20% of Premiere users, what percentage of Photoshop users are on Windows?

Sorry for the dorky post, just...well let's just say too many kiddie movies in my unemployed time...

Jeff Harrell
Jul 7, 2003, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by Keynoteuser
Not even close. I can tell you've never used FCP...or at least not to it's fullest capabilities. FCE is REALLY stripped down.Go back and read again, more carefully this time. The question was not about how Final Cut Express compares to Final Cut Pro. Final Cut Pro is more like a Smoke or a Media Composer than anything, albeit without all the spiffy realtime features of either of those platforms.

The question was about how Final Cut Express compares to Premiere. And the answer, of course, is "very favorably."

rDLr
Jul 7, 2003, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by BaghdadBob
Apple no longer has competition, which may make them lazy "That's bad..."



There is still the competition of Avid.

The low end Avid products compete with Final Cut Pro.

Which leads me to another point. Is Avid going to drop their Mac versions just because Apple has made a good product? No, because Avid's programs are high quality too. It makes me laugh that Adobe is blaming Apple for their product failing on the Mac.

Premiere died on the Mac long before FCP came out.

mr_austin
Jul 7, 2003, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by nuckinfutz
It is irreplaceable. Illustrator and Indesign are not. Premiere and After Effects can easily be replaced by FCP and Combustion.


Hmmm. FCP definitely replaces premiere, but I don't know about the rest. There was never a huge installed base of Premiere users to contend with (and those who use it, hated it), but AE is definitely crushing combustion and I don't think Freehand and Quark are shaking in their shoes...

Working in motion graphics, I know 0 people who use combustion (aside from the particles) and 1 person who uses shake (and he works on 2k film trailers, and still uses AE a lot.) Compare that to about 50 who use AE full time.

If Adobe released AE 7 for PC only, most people I know would go out and buy a PC. But then again, all these same people are going to buy AE 6 for OS X. Money talks, BS walks.

PS - add me to the list of people happy to spit on premiere's grave. The only editor I hate more is Media 100.

-a

XnavxeMiyyep
Jul 7, 2003, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by ibookin'
I think it means that it will be OS X and Windows only, with no OS 9 support.

Having no PS for Windows would probably be a really, really, really good thing for Apple.
That would be awesome though:D

fourthtunz
Jul 7, 2003, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by rDLr
There is still the competition of Avid.

The low end Avid products compete with Final Cut Pro.

Which leads me to another point. Is Avid going to drop their Mac versions just because Apple has made a good product? No, because Avid's programs are high quality too. It makes me laugh that Adobe is blaming Apple for their product failing on the Mac.

Premiere died on the Mac long before FCP came out.

You got that right, the very first version of Imovie rendered way faster than Premiere 6 on the mac. Adobe stopped improving it long ago what did they think would happen?
The same thing happened with avid a couple of years ago when they slowed Mac development. What did they think apple would do?? Apple bought final cut and it now it kicks the Avid stuff!
I find it hard to believe these companies that started on the mac think that they can survive in the PC's cheapest is best environment?? I'm glad the Mac is getting more horsepower, more reason to develop for the Mac!! It will be a cold day before I switch to a pc to do my work and play, peace
daniel

Kid Red
Jul 7, 2003, 03:06 PM
I don't understand why there are more negative ratings then positive on the front page. I really hate those ratings. how is this negative? It means Adobe respects FCP and bows down to it being superior. This means Apple will have more revenue and therefore can spend more money on FCP's development.

This was a business solution. Most of their customers left for FCP. They admitted FCP was stealing business and therefore wasn't worth continuing development. How does that translate to the rest of their apps? It doesn't. As long as their other apps sell on the mac, they will continue their full steam ahead development. That's positive. It also means, Adobe feeling the heat from Quark, Macromedia, Corel and now Apple will just have to spend that more time and effort on their apps. And the G5 gives Apple the staying power the guarantees continuing development of high end apps.

I don't see how that warrants negative ratings. Please arn, get rid of the ratings.

Wonder Boy
Jul 7, 2003, 03:07 PM
Good ridence...

Dahl
Jul 7, 2003, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by Pablo
Not good for a few reasons that I can think of:
2) Lack of competition. With less competitive products, there is less incentive for programs like Final Cut Pro/Express to innovate.

True to a certain extent.
Apple wants to keep making killer products, not only to keep Mac users from leaving, but to get new users from the PC world.
Have PC users come to Apple, because their programs are too good to ignore. :)

MasterX (OSiX)
Jul 7, 2003, 04:07 PM
In my opinion FCP was considered interested in version 1, a good solution in version 2, serious by version 3 and a major switching force by version 4.

One of the beautiful things about FCP is that it is Mac only. And not simply because it's a reason to buy a mac, and we know apple really needed those in the later part of the G4 era, but with FCP designed almost only for G4 machines, Apple has done an amazing job of accelerating the app for altivec and PPC in general. If FCP was cross platform I can't imagine something like Real Time Extreme in FCP4.

Look at After Effects and Premiere, last time I used both they rendered every frame, as if they had very little faith in your machine's ability to play back native, unaltered video. The iMovie/FCP progressive rendering system is far more intelligent and saves an aweful lot of time. One thing I wish FCP had (ok 2) a suepr fast editing mode like iMovie (shift click editing, it's like text, how efficient) and auto scene breaks (I often find myself importing with iMovie due to the work involved in breaking scenes and the troubble getting it to import exactly where I want it with short clips). If anyone has used FCP4 and noticed an improved import system, let me know, I'm quite interested.

hsilver
Jul 7, 2003, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by rDLr
There is still the competition of Avid.

The low end Avid products compete with Final Cut Pro.

Which leads me to another point. Is Avid going to drop their Mac versions just because Apple has made a good product? No, because Avid's programs are high quality too. It makes me laugh that Adobe is blaming Apple for their product failing on the Mac.

Premiere died on the Mac long before FCP came out.

AVID stopped developing it's products for the Mac in the '90's when the 8500 or 9500 or the 1st pro Mac came out with only 3 expansion boards. AVID needs 5 slots. They come up with an expansion chassis but pre-OSX there were always a lot of things in Apple's architecture that required major workarounds. The AVID base of Mac user's threw tantrums so AVID turned around to continue to support Mac except for the Symphony. Earlier this year AVID released Symphony for Mac. That's not going to happen with Premiere.

whawho
Jul 7, 2003, 06:22 PM
Now I am not saying the new version won't be sweet, maybe it will be but when I used Primiere on Windows I thought it was too hard to use and buggy. I ended up use Vegas Video for all my video projects. My first thought when I was on the Windows platform was Adobe Product = Good, man I was wrong. Vegas video felt and works a lot like Final Cut Express to me except the work flow in FCE is much better.

Now since I have switched and started using Final Cut Express for all my DV projects I can't see why somebody on the Mac platform would even care if Adobe Premiere was gone. I Haven't used FCP because FCE meets my needs at this time but I am sure if it like FCE it puts Premiere to shame.

I know this will get a lot of bad press-->I mean its on slash dot :P but it's not that big a deal to me? Now when they say "Adobe After Effects for mac Terminated" ... that would be bad news..

mr_austin
Jul 7, 2003, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by MasterX (OSiX)
Look at After Effects and Premiere, last time I used both they rendered every frame, as if they had very little faith in your machine's ability to play back native, unaltered video. The iMovie/FCP progressive rendering system is far more intelligent and saves an aweful lot of time.

AE is a compositing app, so it's not supposed to play the video when you hit the play button. That said, it does a great job playing previews in real time from RAM, post rendering. And I mean uncompressed 16-bit previews, not DV. AE and FCP are both great at what they do, but what they do is very different. As for progressive rendering, I would love to see AE have some sort of background rendering/auto-proxy feature, like combustion does or easy render management like shake does.



One thing I wish FCP had (ok 2) a suepr fast editing mode like iMovie (shift click editing, it's like text, how efficient) and auto scene breaks (I often find myself importing with iMovie due to the work involved in breaking scenes and the troubble getting it to import exactly where I want it with short clips). If anyone has used FCP4 and noticed an improved import system, let me know, I'm quite interested.

As far as I know, DV capture puts markers at the start/stop points. Turn snapping on (n) use the razor blade (b) and trim at the markers, no? This is all FCP 3.

FCP has far more tools at it's disposal, and once you get used to 3-point editing and using the right tool for the right job (trim, insert,overwrite, roll, etc), it goes very quickly.

fatfish
Jul 7, 2003, 06:27 PM
A lot of you seem worried about lack of competition, leading to laziness on the part of Apple.

I can't see too many using FCP just for the hell of it. The vast majority will use this product to earn their living.

Proffesional users will dictate the pace of FCP development, not half-ass apps like premiere has become. (look how pixar have encouraged apple to write the new pixlet codec)

It seems a little unreal to worry about lack of competition when Apple have gotten so far ahead, without any real competition for some time.

It seems that with the new G5 the best way to go by far for video proffesionals will be a mac running FCP.

For the rest of us there is FCE or imovie.

No room for premiere anymore.

No doubt Apple lovers will see it as proof of a superior product, whereas MS lovers will twist it round to look like another nail in the mac coffin.

As for whether Adobe will drop PS, hmmm don't think so. PS is a different situation. There's a whole load of users out there, that use it without it being their bread and butter. Even if apple produced some superior imaging app, not everyone would need or want to use it, and there are a whole load of low end imaging apps out there already that havn't dented PS popularity so far.

But what's that post about PS8, being mac only. Can't see that happening, surely this is a misquote.

jaykk
Jul 7, 2003, 06:32 PM
I agree thats its a good business decision of Adobe's part, still, I think Adobe is now focusing more on Windows than Mac OS X. It all started with the "PC Preferred" page on adobe's site, their focus is clearly shifted now. Adobe may not drop Photoshop, but I bet the Windows version of their software is going to be better.
And I fear M$ dropping Office suite soon too, especially since Keynote is a direct challenge to Powerpoint. M$ needs some excuse, just like adobe, to pull its Office suite from Mac Os.

And I am still following SCO's suite against IBM, its a proxy war from M$ against all *nix platforms.

MacSlut
Jul 7, 2003, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Wonder Boy
Good ridence...

I saw Terminator 3 the other day, and I couldn't help but feel that if the government was using OS X, the ending of the world could have been avoided.

Probably, I mean after all the original Terminator was running Apple II assembly code.

fatfish
Jul 7, 2003, 06:51 PM
Adobe may not drop Photoshop, but I bet the Windows version of their software is going to be better.
And I fear M$ dropping Office suite soon too, especially since Keynote is a direct challenge to Powerpoint. M$ needs some excuse, just like adobe, to pull its Office suite from Mac Os.

In what way would PS for Windows be better than for OSX.

So far as MS dropping office, I think you've got to remember that MS still make huge bucks from officeX, IE was free.

And what if they do.....

Appleworks needs some improvement admittedly, but it's only been held back because of the long agreement (now over) between Apple and MS, for apple not to compete with office.

I'm sure there are lots of improvements to come to AW, and now with mail, address book, ical etc., it wouldn't be too difficult for apple to improve them and integrate them like they did with ilife, before there would be a reasonable replacement for office.

Come on guys, stop worrying about what windows users are doing.

whawho
Jul 7, 2003, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by jaykk
I agree thats its a good business decision of Adobe's part, still, I think Adobe is now focusing more on Windows than Mac OS X. It all started with the "PC Preferred" page on adobe's site, their focus is clearly shifted now. Adobe may not drop Photoshop, but I bet the Windows version of their software is going to be better.
And I fear M$ dropping Office suite soon too, especially since Keynote is a direct challenge to Powerpoint. M$ needs some excuse, just like adobe, to pull its Office suite from Mac Os.


I don't completely agree with you on this. While I agree it's a warning sign, I don't completely agree with you that Adobe as a whole company is focusing more on Windows than on Mac, maybe just certain divisions. I think that if what you said were a true statement Adobe wouldn't be working with Apple to optimize Photoshop for the G5 "pre-release" and 64 bit OS. If what you said were a true statement Adobe just wouldn't care and keep Photoshop how it is .... You don't see any CEO's from Macromedia doing any Panther Demo's ;).

And on MS dropping Office for Mac. I really don't think will happen too soon. Until the MacBD doesn't make Microsoft money... they make them a ton for the amount of people in that division... there's really no justificaton for them to drop Office...especially since Office already runs natively in Mac OS X...

And now that they MS doesn't have to keep IE going thanks to Safari.. The MacBD will make Microsoft More money since they have to put zero more development hours into IE.. MS is no Dummy...Most Every apple user will use Safari, Apple users tend like Apple Software..And the ones that don't will still use the old IE that works natively in Mac OS X.

It's not a real good business practice to just END revenue like what the MacBD generates.... Especially since other departments in MS aren't making money...er XBOX, MSN come to mind :)

jaykk
Jul 7, 2003, 07:03 PM
Its a lame excuse to blame it on competition from Apple's products, because without competition, we consumers are at loss. And Adobe and M$ is ready to give up mac customer base just beacause there is competition from Apple. I think its little scary.

whawho
Jul 7, 2003, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by jaykk
Its a lame excuse to blame it on competition from Apple's products, because without competition, we consumers are at loss. And Adobe and M$ is ready to give up mac customer base just beacause there is competition from Apple. I think its little scary.

I think that both companies made wise business decisions expecially in today's economy. IE for Mac makes Microsoft zero money compared to development hours cost and now they're are competing with an Apple Browser--> Microsoft will lose/already lost this battle and since Apple doesn't charge for safari this doesn't bother me too much, I quit using IE full time since the introduction of Chimera 0.3.

IE on Mac is NOTHING like IE on Windows... Safari is almost as good as IE on windows as far as layout IMO.. and just as good if not better as far as speed and it has the Apple design and look...

Adobe probably was losing money a losing Market share drastically on the Mac with Premiere and with the introduction of Final Cut Express (Costs less than Adobe Premiere) Adobe really didn't have a leg to stand on anymore. They had no more "it's cheaper than FCP" argument... because most likely the users that didn't want to pay the $999 for FCP would be fine using FCE and are OK with paying less $299 I know I was..

Shoot.... if I had choice bewteen Premierre and iMovie... I would pick iMovie everytime... :)

LethalWolfe
Jul 7, 2003, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by 748s
Avid is releasing a free dv edit system this year. it will take a chunk out of the PC premiere market. premiere could be killed off in a year or two. premiere was an example of too little too late.

I really doubt Avid's free DV is going to take a chunk outta anything other an iMovie or windows movie maker. It's a free program for people to use so they will hopefully go, "wow this is great. I'm gonna drop $1500 on XpressDV."


BaghdadBob, FCP still has plenty of competition out there w/the most obvious one being Avid. FCP was never meant to compete w/Premiere. It was meant to compete w/ higher end, pro level NLE's like it is currently.


Jeff Harrell, FCP isn't meant to compete w/Smoke (which is an editing & finishing hybred), but more along the lines of NLE's like Avid's Xpress and Media/Film compossers.


Lethal

Maxx Power
Jul 7, 2003, 09:14 PM
Funny how Adobe revenges on Apple after years of maltreatment from Apple.

Keynoteuser
Jul 7, 2003, 09:14 PM
Jeff Harrell, read his first sentence again...he said FCE is the same as FCP 3 except it only does DV. The SECOND sentence mentions Premier. I wanted it clear that FCP, even version 3, does more than FCE.

BaghdadBob
Jul 7, 2003, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by Maxx Power
Funny how Adobe revenges on Apple after years of maltreatment from Apple.
:confused:

What did Apple do?

beerstine
Jul 7, 2003, 09:28 PM
As someone who broke into editing on Premiere 5.1 and endured more than my share of its bugs and instability, the decision to fork over the extra bucks once FCP came out was easy and I haven't looked back. Haven't used Premiere in over 2 years and ignored all the calls to upgrade as most Mac-heads did.

Premiere was an application that offered far more features than functionality. It could do a lot of things if you had the time and patience to make it work if you were lucky, but Final Cut is a far more professional package and the market has borne that out.

There will be a lot of home movie jockeys and wedding shooters that will muddle through with Premiere on their XP systems, but the Pros will continue to use FCP, Avid and other more robust tools.

Now, if After Effects and Photoshop go...then Apple's got a real problem.

By the way, every year at NAB I run by the Matrox and Canopus booths to watch Premiere crash Windows XP in the middle of live demos before hundreds of people. And you wonder why they have to bundle the crap app with hardware boards just to boost their sales figues.

Pinnacle dumped Premiere to go with their own Edition Software, and Canopus is developing Edius to be an eventual replacement. Matrox goes with Incite on their high-end systems.

Just because It's now Windows only doesn't mean it will work, and most people in the business know it.

CSkotW
Jul 7, 2003, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by MacSlut Now, if Apple could only kill off Photoshop and the rest of MS Office... [/B]

With Corel hurting, it might make sense for Apple to pursue their code. Apple would make a much better home for Corel's Mac product line.

I can imagine either a rebirth of WP code in AppleWorks, or an out-right purchase of Corel's WINE-based Office for Linux. WordPerfect, Quattro Pro, etc. -- on the Macintosh.

OpenOffice - Aqua/OS X edition would be fine, but I admit that WP had some nice feature. (Reveal Codes still beats MS Word's formatting in some ways.)

Apple is a hardware company, true, but market share is a result of must-have software. Apple is creating a lot of must-haves in the digital hub.

Adobe and Quark should worry... they took too long to embrace OS X and did it only half-hearted.

evolu
Jul 7, 2003, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by h'biki
Pretty much every mac user I know who used to use premiere now uses FCP or FCE - its market share has been complete erroded by a far superior product.

But this is potentially troubling news - what if Adobe killed After Effects and Photoshop for Mac?

I predict one of two things:

1. Steve buys Adobe just to spite them. (I havne't checked market capitalisation so I have no idea if its possible).

2. Apple announces its own Photoshop/AE killer (and I'm labout 90% sure they have one in development - they need to) which will be one of two things:

a) Based on GIMP (and its FilmGIMP variation). They'll tighten up the code, provide a supertight GUI.

b) Based on Shake. Shake has superior colour tools (32bit floating point internally), a superior workflow (if you get your head around the procedural aspect) and market awareness.

Either way, it'll underprice Photoshop and AE by at least 50% and be at least 200% faster cause Adobe's code sucks total ass.

This seems to be marketshare driven... I don't think adobe will give up on the mac anytime soon!

h'biki
Jul 7, 2003, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by BaghdadBob
Well, I haven't done any video editing at all, so I don't have any specific product opinions myself, but I'm going to blab anyway.

Think Team Rocket:

Apple no longer has competition, which may make them lazy "That's bad..."


Except of course they do have competition - in the form of *the* post juggernaut called Avid.

Avid DVXpress Free is coming to OS X and Windows. Will people use it instead of iMovie? Potentially. Avid has a name in the post market and it'll be a great way to learn Avid systems (like ProTools free)

DVXpress is more expensive than FCE but for post houses with Symphony systems and the like it offers beautiful cross-system compatibility without EDLs.

(I know Mac editors who prefer DVXpress too)

Thats why Premiere was killed - it had no hope of competing with two heavyweights.

JerrySpoon
Jul 7, 2003, 11:06 PM
I used Premier back when I was using mac os 8. I can say that I liked what it did then, but I soon became unsatisfied with it. Later, when iMovie came out, I used it almost exclusively, even though there was much that it didn't do. Now that FCE has come out (and it's in a price range I can afford) I've been trying to talk myself into buying it and learning it. I was a little aprehensive and didn't want to give up what I knew about Premier even though I hadn't used it in years. Guess this is the final nail in the coffin. FCE, here I come!

shawnjackson
Jul 7, 2003, 11:57 PM
well.. actually in terminator 3 they were running unix (at least on the gov computers from what I saw... and yes I know, they werent running anything, just some little scripted video rendetion to look neat... but I think its more unix then anything)

and since os x is build on the unix core... well then, the world would still have blone up. hate to see what would have happend hat they been running windows xp

LethalWolfe
Jul 8, 2003, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by MasterX (OSiX)
One thing I wish FCP had (ok 2) a suepr fast editing mode like iMovie (shift click editing, it's like text, how efficient) and auto scene breaks (I often find myself importing with iMovie due to the work involved in breaking scenes and the troubble getting it to import exactly where I want it with short clips). If anyone has used FCP4 and noticed an improved import system, let me know, I'm quite interested.


There is nothing wrong w/FCPs capturing ability. IIRC there is a way in FCP 3 (and I'm assuming 4) to auto-detect the "pause" breaks in the DV tape. But I've never used it, nor would I want to. Going thru and logging tape/timecode and batch capturing takes a bit more time but, IMO, it's the only way to properly capture footage. How are you having problem capturing short clips (or heck any clips for that matter)? All you have to do is set an in point at the begining of the clip you want to capture and an out point at the end.


Lethal

Scottgfx
Jul 8, 2003, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by wheezl
Premier was such an awful and underpowered application from day one. It was extremely buggy and thus extremely unstable in every release. Luckily it was equally crappy on both Windows and the Macintosh... even with a new version for Windows XP it gets it's butt kicked all over the place by Vegas Video which is a vastly superior peice of software.

I received Premiere 4(something) for the Mac when I bought my Miro DC30. After expierence with linear tape editing and Avid, I thought Premiere was crap. I've seen some really patient people do good work in it though. I've been recommending Vegas to my PC using friends based on my brother's comments. I can't seem to be able to get him back to the Mac though. Where I work we have an Accom Affinity that only runs on OS9. I hope they're not expecting any new sales. While I don't get to use FCP too much, everything seems to be in it's proper place. Will FCP3 work with that new G5 I just ordered, or do I need to upgrade to 4?

Phil Of Mac
Jul 8, 2003, 12:45 AM
Originally posted by hsilver
AVID stopped developing it's products for the Mac in the '90's when the 8500 or 9500 or the 1st pro Mac came out with only 3 expansion boards.

Power Mac G3 (beige, Gossamer, 1998).

9500 (1995) and 9600 (1997) were both 6-slot.

Phil Of Mac
Jul 8, 2003, 12:47 AM
Originally posted by jaykk
Its a lame excuse to blame it on competition from Apple's products, because without competition, we consumers are at loss. And Adobe and M$ is ready to give up mac customer base just beacause there is competition from Apple. I think its little scary.

If the competition from Apple means better products, then so be it. Better products is what we're all aiming at, isn't it?

macnews
Jul 8, 2003, 01:16 AM
I rated this as negative because the "loss" of any app looks bad for potential switchers - no matter how crappy it is or even if they would use it. The appearance of "not enough" apps for Macs is something switchers have to overcome regardless of that 90% of PC users only use about 10 programs on a regular basis (this is my own personal obersvation, not fact).

In terms of Adobe, I think this is a smart move. I don't think the "be careful Adobe may pull its other apps" theory carries any weight what so ever. First, the "industry standard" in graphic design is still considered to be a Mac computer running Illustrator and Photoshop. Depending on what type of graphics you do include Flash, Quark, etc, etc. True or not, this is the mind set of many in the industry.

Second, my theory is the following: Upon getting quark 6, Adobe recognized they have a great chance to capture the professional print market. Money being tight, they looked where they could fund some extra r&d to add in some final features for Indesign 3 (due in Dec.). Understanding their butt was being kicked in the video market, they wisely ditched Premier. The savings were put into having Indesign totally kick Quark's collective ass.

Good business decision for Adobe - focus on Indesign, Illustrator, Photoshop and Acrobat. Make PDF a true accepted standard and fend off M$ attempts to corrupt it. Overall, looks bad for Apple because a "loss" of an app - as will surely be seen by the PC pundits putting their spin on it.

macphoria
Jul 8, 2003, 03:27 AM
Apple has been upsetting other software developers with their own softwares. Apple upset MS with Safari, Keynote, etc, and upset Adobe with Final Cut Pro. You could say those companies "retaliated" or that they simply didn't think it would be worth their time and money to compete with software that hardware company specifically made for their own machines. Considering the small market that Apple owns, this is a bit scary because companies are in business to make money and they really have little reason to spend effort to turn lesser profit from smaller market.

But considering how Apple products have deep root in creative art/design community, it is unlikely that company like Adobe will pull away entirely. And this is why I think Adobe made practical business decision with Premier as opposed to retaliating.

If Adobe said they were stopping development on future Photoshops or something like that, then it would be different story all together. Then I would hope Apple will hurry and come out with Photo Studio Pro or something like that.

dansuz1
Jul 8, 2003, 04:00 AM
Does anyone know of any comparisons between the features/options of iMovie3 and FCP/FCE? I'd like to see an unbiased comparison to see if it is worth the money to upgrade to FCP.

All I use iMovie for is home video, but I would like to get more creative with them than I can - if it is worth the cost.

Dan

748s
Jul 8, 2003, 05:21 AM
Originally posted by LethalWolfe
I really doubt Avid's free DV is going to take a chunk outta anything other an iMovie or windows movie maker. It's a free program for people to use so they will hopefully go, "wow this is great. I'm gonna drop $1500 on XpressDV."


i still think premiere has a year or two left. adobe will eventually kill it for pc too. Avid free will take a chunk out of the pc nle market. vegas will become dominant in the pc world (low and mid level). iMovie users might try out avid free, if they want to move up from iMovie i can't see many going the avid upgrade path, it will be to fce or fcp.

Trimix
Jul 8, 2003, 05:37 AM
Purely from a point of choice the decision to drop the development of any program for the MAC is a bad thing.
It burdens Apple with the need to allocate resources to more and more areas of development - it furthers the island mentality of the Apple community and it requires more and more convincing on the part of Apple and of us as users that what is offered as an alternative is good or even better than what it replaces.
People are entrenched in their thinking that what worked is good and everything new is a burden. We here as users may not feel that but for everybody else out there it makes the decision to switch even harder.
In Apple's shoes i would spent an inordinate amount of resources now on the development of an Office program with all the bells and whistles and an independent WINDOWS emulator (built in as part of the box)
The next thing we will lament is the stop of the Office package and then Apple will be forced to demonstrate its superiority in that area too.
Not that they can't do it, but apart from the MHZ myth we all will then have to explain to the outside world that 'our' program beats office and still can read all Office files ;)

Keynoteuser
Jul 8, 2003, 09:15 AM
FCP vs iMovie
Does anyone know of any comparisons between the features/options of iMovie3 and FCP/FCE? I'd like to see an unbiased comparison to see if it is worth the money to upgrade to FCP.

All I use iMovie for is home video, but I would like to get more creative with them than I can - if it is worth the cost.

Dan,

FCE is a step above iMovie in some ways and a step down in others. The BIG advantage is multiple tracks of video and audio. That together with the editing tools (such as the Ripple edit and the razor blade tool) make for very easy editing on the time line. You can SEE what you are doing, instead of sort of going blind like iMovie does...no more cutting clips in half and playing musical clips in the movie bin, no more having to worry about the iMovie time line closing up gaps in cut clips that you actually WANTED to be there. BUT, the title tools aren't as Premade. You can't just pick a funky text bounce in effect and slap it in there, you have to create it by hand...and that can take time. On top of that, many of FCP's keyframing functions have been removed...so it's even harder now to create animated titles.

Now, if you don't mind a learning curve (which mostly kicks in AFTER you at least learn the easy to use timeline) FCP is WELL worth the $999. It's got tons of features that you won't even believe...and once you learn the timeline and some Keyframing stuff, you'll wonder how you EVER got anything done in iMovie at all. Add to this some cool real-time effect and transitions, real time color correction and you take another step up. To sweeten the deal, Apple now includes the Cinema tools (probably something you don't need); Soundtrack, which lets you use Apple's loops or buy your own Acid loops to create sound tracks to your movies; Livetype, which is like a mini AfterEffects for titles and object animation (takes care of the missing premade title effects in iMovie too); and Compressor, which is similar to Cleaner and does some incredible 2 pass variable bit rate Mpeg2 encoding.

From a sheer bang for buck ratio, there isn't anything in the industry that can touch FInal Cut Pro 4.

Phil Of Mac
Jul 8, 2003, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by Trimix
Purely from a point of choice the decision to drop the development of any program for the MAC is a bad thing.
It burdens Apple with the need to allocate resources to more and more areas of development - it furthers the island mentality of the Apple community and it requires more and more convincing on the part of Apple and of us as users that what is offered as an alternative is good or even better than what it replaces.


Why does Apple need to allocate more resources to development? The resources they're already allocating make a good enough product to make competitors just quit?

Phil Of Mac
Jul 8, 2003, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by Keynoteuser
Now, if you don't mind a learning curve (which mostly kicks in AFTER you at least learn the easy to use timeline) FCP is WELL worth the $999. It's got tons of features that you won't even believe...and once you learn the timeline and some Keyframing stuff, you'll wonder how you EVER got anything done in iMovie at all.

I'm sure Final Cut Pro is very nice, but it's a thousand dollars. If you're a hobbyist, you don't really need it. That's why Final Cut Express was invented. As someone said earlier in the thread, "Very few people use Final Cut Pro just for the hell of it."

But if you're rich, go for it :)

Dahl
Jul 8, 2003, 03:47 PM
Well, at least we still have After Effects for another upgrade.
Here comes After Effects 6
http://www.creativemac.com/cgi-bin/getframeletter.cgi?/2003/07_jul/news/ae6030707.htm
http://www.adobe.com/products/aftereffects/main.html

dansuz1
Jul 9, 2003, 06:53 AM
Originally posted by Keynoteuser
Dan,

FCE is a step above iMovie in some ways and a step down in others. The BIG advantage is multiple tracks of video and audio. That together with the editing tools (such as the Ripple edit and the razor blade tool) make for very easy editing on the time line. You can SEE what you are doing, instead of sort of going blind like iMovie does...no more cutting clips in half and playing musical clips in the movie bin, no more having to worry about the iMovie time line closing up gaps in cut clips that you actually WANTED to be there. BUT, the title tools aren't as Premade. You can't just pick a funky text bounce in effect and slap it in there, you have to create it by hand...and that can take time. On top of that, many of FCP's keyframing functions have been removed...so it's even harder now to create animated titles.

Now, if you don't mind a learning curve (which mostly kicks in AFTER you at least learn the easy to use timeline) FCP is WELL worth the $999. It's got tons of features that you won't even believe...and once you learn the timeline and some Keyframing stuff, you'll wonder how you EVER got anything done in iMovie at all. Add to this some cool real-time effect and transitions, real time color correction and you take another step up. To sweeten the deal, Apple now includes the Cinema tools (probably something you don't need); Soundtrack, which lets you use Apple's loops or buy your own Acid loops to create sound tracks to your movies; Livetype, which is like a mini AfterEffects for titles and object animation (takes care of the missing premade title effects in iMovie too); and Compressor, which is similar to Cleaner and does some incredible 2 pass variable bit rate Mpeg2 encoding.

From a sheer bang for buck ratio, there isn't anything in the industry that can touch FInal Cut Pro 4.

Keynoteuser,

Thanks for the rundown on the differences. FCP does seem to be what I want to use, but I need to wait until we finish moving to our new house. I guess I'll need to wait and edit all of the baby footage and our trip to Europe when I get FCP4.

Thanks,

Dan

mk_in_mke
Jul 9, 2003, 11:43 AM
FCP3 then FCP4 are so great applications... I started on Premiere 4 p until premiere 6.5... Several points:

- Premiere is a 600$+ FCP a 999$ but what a difference !!!!(soundtrack / livetype/ cinema / compressor...)... Who said FCP is expensive? Compared to the features: it is a gift

- Apple has released 2 extraordinary apps with FCP 3 and FCP4 in one year... What did Adobe do?

- Apple has created several layers with Imovie / FCP Xpress / FCP 4... What did Adobe offer?

I have been a HUGE fan of Premiere, Adobe pioneered in this area... Apple took video editing to a very high level while Adobe kept on sleeping...

I do think that the real contender now are Apple and Avid... Adobe is focusing on Windows.... This is very good for th PC users, it is a great product... Premiere makes no sense on the mac with the current competition.... This is a very good move for Adobe...

I read also "this is not good for he mac... because we need more application?"... This is not over, maybe tomorrow other companies are going to release video editing software... Today Apple and Avid have the right tools....

Now: Apple going after Photoshop? Are you guys kidding me? Who today can stand against Adobe in the image editing area...? Even if Apple wanted to go after PShop, they would never reach such quality in an acceptable timeframe... my humble opinion


Michel

themadchemist
Jul 9, 2003, 10:30 PM
{i]Originally posted by h'biki [/i]
Pretty much every mac user I know who used to use premiere now uses FCP or FCE - its market share has been complete erroded by a far superior product.

While this is true, it is no reason to be happy about this. Anytime we lose a major app, it's just one more opportunity for PC users to say, "Hey! You don't have this app, do you?" And from Adobe of all people, that's disheartening.

In addition, I know Premiere has a loyal following. Some people, I imagine, would switch to Windows (having no real preference of OS) just to use Premiere.

But this is potentially troubling news - what if Adobe killed After Effects and Photoshop for Mac?

The reason Adobe sacked Premiere was because of market share. I doubt that would ever happen to After Effects or Photoshop.

1. Steve buys Adobe just to spite them. (I havne't checked market capitalisation so I have no idea if its possible).

Not going to happen. I'm not sure of the market cap either, but I'm sure Apple could not easily do this. I don't know if it would be a wise strategic move either. Anyway, looking at Apple's purchasing decisions in the past, they have always been small, highly-specialized companies that have only a few products. Am I right? Adobe is definitely too big to swallow. To buy Adobe is to buy large portions of several sectors of software, and in some cases, almost the entire sector.

2. Apple announces its own Photoshop/AE killer (and I'm labout 90% sure they have one in development - they need to) which will be one of two things:

a) Based on GIMP (and its FilmGIMP variation). They'll tighten up the code, provide a supertight GUI.

b) Based on Shake. Shake has superior colour tools (32bit floating point internally), a superior workflow (if you get your head around the procedural aspect) and market awareness.

Either way, it'll underprice Photoshop and AE by at least 50% and be at least 200% faster cause Adobe's code sucks total ass.

You could be right, but I really disagree. Photoshop has such a strong following that it would cost a lot of resources for Apple to try to enter that market now. Apple doesn't need to enter that market because it is profitable and can sustain profitability without that market...And coding something like Photoshop is no joke. FCP is complex, too, no doubt, but Apple's new products (other than the OS of course) have tended to be small, useful programs for home/general consumer use. Anyway, Apple is not likely to make people "switch" to Mac hardware and OS by developing software for the creative folk. Why?

1) It already has a strong market share there, so it is not an efficient use of its resources to get a few more switchers there.
2) Those who use Windows and Photoshop are not likely to abandon Photoshop for Apple's new offering.

Apple's ad campaign has suggested that it is targeting the regular schmo, and its industrial design & product line have suggested that it is targeting large corporations. Those are Apple's two weakest areas.

Anyway, I don't want to see Apple making this product. It takes too much time, money, and other resources away from areas that I would like to see development and that would help more:
1) Hardware advances (maybe they could use this extra money to get a G5 in a laptop?)
2) OS advances (maybe they could use these extra programmers to hurry up with 10.3, and subsequently, 10.4?)
3) Other software advances (maybe they could use extra programmers to make tried and true software like FCP or even DVD Player better?)
4) MARKETING MARKETING MARKETING! Apple's marketing is getting better, but not great. They need to pour more money in here, IMHO!

This was very opinionated and I probably stepped on some toes. Sorry. I didn't mean to flame you h'biki, if I did. But I simply cannot agree, and you very neatly organized a lot of things that I didn't agree with so that I could respond to them more easily. :D

themadchemist
Jul 9, 2003, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by jaykk
It all started with the "PC Preferred" page on adobe's site, their focus is clearly shifted now

What PC Preferred page? I'm curious about such a terrible thing...Do you have a link by any chance? Thanks.

Phil Of Mac
Jul 10, 2003, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by themadchemist
And coding something like Photoshop is no joke. FCP is complex, too, no doubt, but Apple's new products (other than the OS of course) have tended to be small, useful programs [/B]

Apple didn't make Final Cut Pro, they bought it before it was released.

delton05
Jul 10, 2003, 09:42 PM
It all started with the "PC Preferred" page on adobe's site, their focus is clearly shifted now

The page was pulled after a few days, presumably after some complaints from Steve Jobs and Mac users.

The url was: http://www.adobe.com/motion/pcpreferred.html

It is now redirected.

delton05
Jul 10, 2003, 09:52 PM
It all started with the "PC Preferred" page on adobe's site, their focus is clearly shifted now

The page was pulled after a few days, presumably after some complaints from Steve Jobs and Mac users.

The url was: http://www.adobe.com/motion/pcpreferred.html

It is now redirected.

dandp
Sep 25, 2003, 08:49 AM
I don't understand how long it is going to take for the rest of the world to see clearly what Adobe has finally realized. It is A PC world. How long can you people hang on to the whole Mac thing.
Let it go. PC's run this world not MACs. It's just like one of those cult like things to say I'm a MAC person. Has anyone tried Preimere Pro yet. How about Pinnacle systems Edition 5. PC's are slowly becoming the main system used in Graphics and Video Production too. It's just the way it is. It's Like Beta and VHS.
Beta was a better format, but how many people do you know that rent movies on Beta. Oh that's right you can't. Get my point. I hope I didn't offend anyone.

patrick0brien
Sep 25, 2003, 08:53 AM
-A Troll!

Two and a half months and we get a troll!

-dandp

I have used Premier Pro, Avid, Media 100 and others. I prefer FCP.

Why?

There are reasons, I suggest you broaden your horizons and find out for yourself.

Sure, you may turn out to be one that prefers Premier Pro on a PC over FCP or Avid for professional broadcast, but you'd be the first.

The point that has been made in this thread ad nausium is that Adobe left Mac because it simply couldn't compete.

h'biki
Sep 25, 2003, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by dandp
(snip) PC's are slowly becoming the main system used in Graphics and Video Production too.

Woo! A Troll!

Its funny how all the pc-using video editors have such a complex that they feel the need to tell everyone that macs are on the decline in 'the industry'.

(Now for the response, because I can)

Sure, the percentage of mac users amongst the wedding/corporate crowd is probably declining as more and more people buy Dells and convince themselves that they're editors.

But amongst post-houses mac-use is increasing. This is due to four things. 1. OS X. 2. Shake. 3. Final Cut Pro. 4. G5s.

zim
Sep 25, 2003, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by dandp
Get my point.

Yup, what you said is about right, Macs are the superior computers, just as beta was. But there is a difference, Macs made it into pop culture and into the homes of many many consumers plus Apple still has about 80% of the creative field.

So that makes windows the vhs, a crappy poorly made knock off for the masses.

Adobe dropped premier not because more people are using windows, but rather because they could not compete with FCP, FCE, or iMovie.

dandp
Sep 25, 2003, 10:03 AM
You can't build your own MAC
There is Half as much software
They are really gay colors
What About Pinnacle Edition which basicly blows away any other editing platform forementioned.

bousozoku
Sep 25, 2003, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by dandp
I don't understand how long it is going to take for the rest of the world to see clearly what Adobe has finally realized. It is A PC world. How long can you people hang on to the whole Mac thing.
Let it go. PC's run this world not MACs. It's just like one of those cult like things to say I'm a MAC person. Has anyone tried Preimere Pro yet. How about Pinnacle systems Edition 5. PC's are slowly becoming the main system used in Graphics and Video Production too. It's just the way it is. It's Like Beta and VHS.
Beta was a better format, but how many people do you know that rent movies on Beta. Oh that's right you can't. Get my point. I hope I didn't offend anyone.

I guess you don't know about DigitalBeta and QuickTime, both of which are used professionally. :D

By the way, claiming viruses as software to up the numbers isn't a legitimate argument.

patrick0brien
Sep 25, 2003, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by dandp
You can't build your own MAC
There is Half as much software
They are really gay colors
What About Pinnacle Edition which basicly blows away any other editing platform forementioned.

-All

Ok. Let's stop feeding him - he's drunk too much cool aid.

Too bad too. This was a good thread.

dandp
Sep 25, 2003, 01:51 PM
I noticed no one has choose to reply to the part about Pinnacle's Edition pro or Edition Liquid software. I guess you boys are content playing with the toy that is FCP. I understand to anyone with below average intelligence could learn to use it so I understand. They don't want to take the time to learn anything want everything easy to use, your failing to see that as business people if this stuff becomes too easy to do people won't need to hire professionals.

Phil Of Mac
Sep 25, 2003, 02:10 PM
Actually, all the professionals I've ever known either use Avid or Final Cut Pro.

I think it's time to close this thread.

dandp
Sep 25, 2003, 02:45 PM
Sorry guys.........to each his own I actually use Premiere, Final Cut Pro & Edition and they all have their strong points. I have just found an argument a good way to get peoples real opinions. Thanks for playing along and for all your great posts.

dandp
Sep 26, 2003, 09:45 AM
I was just wondering what in particular do you people find better about Final Cut Pro. It's very Toyish. I don't understand really.
Premiere has been around a long time and there isn't anything you can't do with it. So please enlighten me. What features in particular are better. And has anyone seen Pinnacle Systems Edition. WOW!!!!!!!!!

patrick0brien
Sep 26, 2003, 09:55 AM
-dandp

I don't know if you are going to get much help here as you've spent your new guy credit points by disparaging our choices at the start - not a good way to get people to want to help you.

I will provide this: Premiere is the toy here, FCP is build like that so that you can learn as you go, and not run out of things to learn. Premiere just doesn't have the depth.

As for the details, well, FCP4 is a 10gig install, so that would take forever. I suggest you find an Apple store, or reseller, and/or a FCPUG near you and ask them. The FCPUG you'd do best as those guys are pros and have probably used everything under the sun - I myself started editing with 3/4" tape-to-tapes in the 80's - and you won't have to deal with the marketing crap - they'll tell you what they think.

dandp
Sep 26, 2003, 10:11 AM
I don't think you people understand. I edit 12-14 hours a day.
I have 8 Telly Awards, 4 Addys to name a few. I'm not some kid just out of collage I am an A.C.E. I know how to use Final Cut Pro.
I just don't understand what everyone loves about it . There is nothing wrong with it, but it's the whole Apple cult thing coming into play here. Apple computers are not what this world runs on.
Anyway I'm just curious what features in particular people find so wonderful about Final Cut Pro. Because all the ones I have heard are all included in Premiere Pro.

dandp
Sep 26, 2003, 10:18 AM
I see noone even mentions Pinnacle Systems REVOLUTIONARY App. Liquid Edition. Which pretty much blows everything away.
If you don't believe me check it out.http://www.pinnaclesys.com/menusupport_n.asp?product_id=1474&Langue_ID=7&loc=techSupport (http://http://www.pinnaclesys.com/menusupport_n.asp?product_id=1474&Langue_ID=7&loc=techSupport)

fourthtunz
Sep 28, 2003, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by dandp
I don't think you people understand. I edit 12-14 hours a day.


Yeah but somehow you find the time to come to a Mac site, lucky us:rolleyes:
Yeah due to Gates n Co it almost is a pc world, so why are you so intimidated by the Mac?
The gui, Audio,video and graphics were on the Mac before the pc, so some of us are loyal to the innovator Mac, what's wrong with that?
For Audio Mac is still #1 and now that IBM has shown that it can make great stuff for the Mac, Macs will get back into the video and graphics worlds.
I still would never want just one OS company, i think competition is good for us consumers.
So do you also go other forums like BMW and bash what people drive etc?
I only have the time to frequent the sites of things I like and use so I'm wondering,peace
daniel