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DZL
Jun 25, 2007, 03:39 PM
Hi all -

I have ordered a MBP 17", and it hasn't shipped yet.

however, after perusing through this forum, have read about the various problems the MBP has - screen issues, thermal paste (hot, hot, hot temperatures)...etc.

it has made me re-think my purchase.

I'm a 3d artist, and will be running 3d-apps, compositing apps, photoshop - etc. So, i will be doing processor-heavy stuff most of the time. and i understand that this will make my MBP hotter than macdonald's coffee.

so, my question is: should I just cancel my order and go with the mac pro instead?

thanks to everyone on this board -

Matt



illustratorDavi
Jun 25, 2007, 03:55 PM
Get a Mac Pro - so much more powerful than the Macbookpro.

I have a Powermac G5 and despite having a 15inch MBP on order I'll be still using the G5 for graphics work - I can't see myself using the mbp for 3d work especially when rendering. Its just for showing clients work, teaching and web design.

Unless you already have a G5 or old MacPro and need to be portable.

I'm not saying the mbp would struggle I just think it will be more comfortable to work at and you'll see the extra power making the difference with a deadline.

David

Mr Fusion
Jun 25, 2007, 04:08 PM
Go Mac Pro. If I weren't forced to be portable I would always stick with desktop machines, they are more solid. :)

DoFoT9
Jun 25, 2007, 04:11 PM
you dont want to get a mac pro, you dont want to get the 3.0ghz 8 core, you dont need the 8gb ram, and of course you dont want 1tb harddrive space

*end subliminal msg*

FF_productions
Jun 25, 2007, 04:11 PM
I went through this little discussion with my self when I was trying to figure out whether I would like to get a portable or a speedy desktop.

I have already had my little run with laptops (A Core Duo MBP) and it would get really hot and the keyboard was a pain in the ass to use for editing video.

I also realized I don't need the portability, I don't move around much, I don't need a portable editing machine.

With a Mac Pro, I get power, expandabilty and a bit more reliability.

You have to decide if you need portability or if you can deal with having a desktop.

DZL
Jun 25, 2007, 04:21 PM
thanks so much, guys. i've never had a laptop, so i don't know how much i'd actually cart it around.

i have a feeling, it wouldn't be that much -

plus i wasn't aware that the performance would be that much better...

any thoughts on monitors?

thanks again - this board has been a great help-

matt

feh
Jun 25, 2007, 04:32 PM
any thoughts on monitors?

there are rumors that they are refreshing the studio display line with built in iSight cameras soonish, but who knows but apple has stopped selling isight cameras for a few months now due to some european lead-hating envior regulations.

If you don't care about what the bezel (the monitor's case) looks like, Dell makes a superior 30" display for less. Dell's 3007wfp-hc 30" LCD is on sale for $1,269 vs apple cinema 30" for $1,800.

The dell has a faster response time of 12ms vs 14ms. it can also display 2560x1600 has a contrast ratio of 1000:1 vs apple's 700:1... on paper a better display in every respect. HOWEVER, there is no substitute for experience and the apple display may be better for design work (taking into account color reproduction, blah blah) so you might want to actually go look at one in an apple store, or do some research.

DoFoT9
Jun 25, 2007, 04:38 PM
yea as much as i hate to admit it the dell 30" kicks the apple 30". in everything. cept for the colour maybe :P. the only thing equal is the res. (i think????) yea go the dellster

feh
Jun 25, 2007, 04:57 PM
the biggest point you are going to need to decide on is the video card.

right now they sell mac pros with two options, both pretty crappy considering the state of GPUs.

I went with the x1900 but if i ordered now i'd go with the cheaper option then upgrade later when they release a dx10 card (if you plan on doing any gaming).

if no games are in your future, and you don't need dx10, the x1900xt is good enough but the stock fan is noisy, so i'd replace it with the ARCTIC COOLING Accelero X2.

Then there's ram. Apple puts the screws to you on RAM. So it comes down to money, there are 8 RAM slots, so you need to plan out your RAM needs before you buy b.c the stock config comes with 512MB dimms, a waste of slots if you are planning on maxing out at 16GB at some point. Third party RAM is an option, just make sure it's apple approved (meaning it has a big enough heat sync) or it will start erroring out due to heat.

DZL
Jun 25, 2007, 05:03 PM
there are rumors that they are refreshing the studio display line with built in iSight cameras soonish, but who knows but apple has stopped selling isight cameras for a few months now due to some european lead-hating envior regulations.

If you don't care about what the bezel (the monitor's case) looks like, Dell makes a superior 30" display for less. Dell's 3007wfp-hc 30" LCD is on sale for $1,269 vs apple cinema 30" for $1,800.

The dell has a faster response time of 12ms vs 14ms. it can also display 2560x1600 has a contrast ratio of 1000:1 vs apple's 700:1... on paper a better display in every respect. HOWEVER, there is no substitute for experience and the apple display may be better for design work (taking into account color reproduction, blah blah) so you might want to actually go look at one in an apple store, or do some research.

feh - thanks so much -

i do value color over response time - but contrast is important as well.

this is a tough decision!

matt

Mac-Addict
Jun 25, 2007, 05:05 PM
I got myself a REV B Macbook Pro and now I really really wish I went for a Mac Pro, so much easy to upgrade to make it future proof and what not..

DarthTreydor
Jun 25, 2007, 05:23 PM
i'm debating the same issue now myself. at first i was all set to buy a mbp but now i'm not so sure after hearing all the issues people are having with them. i like the idea of having the portability of a laptop but i also do a lot of processor/ram intensive audio editing and i want my machine to last as long as possible.


now i think i might go with the mac pro then pick up a used powerbook off ebay to do things on the go.

DZL
Jun 25, 2007, 05:24 PM
the biggest point you are going to need to decide on is the video card.

right now they sell mac pros with two options, both pretty crappy considering the state of GPUs.

I went with the x1900 but if i ordered now i'd go with the cheaper option then upgrade later when they release a dx10 card (if you plan on doing any gaming).

if no games are in your future, and you don't need dx10, the x1900xt is good enough but the stock fan is noisy, so i'd replace it with the ARCTIC COOLING Accelero X2.

Then there's ram. Apple puts the screws to you on RAM. So it comes down to money, there are 8 RAM slots, so you need to plan out your RAM needs before you buy b.c the stock config comes with 512MB dimms, a waste of slots if you are planning on maxing out at 16GB at some point. Third party RAM is an option, just make sure it's apple approved (meaning it has a big enough heat sync) or it will start erroring out due to heat.

o.k. - i'm new, so bear with me - not sure what you mean about the vid cards - x1900xt - that's the radeon card, correct? and you're saying i need to replace the fan with the artic cooling accelero x2?

yeah, that sucks about the ram - that 4X512 setup sucks. if I could, i'd order one with 2mb in one slot, and upgrade the rest, but that won't happen.

do you have any suggestions for upgrading the ram?

thanks again, y'all.

matt

DZL
Jun 25, 2007, 05:27 PM
i'm debating the same issue now myself. at first i was all set to buy a mbp but now i'm not so sure after hearing all the issues people are having with them. i like the idea of having the portability of a laptop but i also do a lot of processor/ram intensive audio editing and i want my machine to last as long as possible.


now i think i might go with the mac pro then pick up a used powerbook off ebay to do things on the go.

dude - EXACTLY. i was thinking the same darn thing... i just need the laptop for presentation purposes - and maybe some light photoshop work...

feh
Jun 25, 2007, 05:31 PM
i'm debating the same issue now myself. at first i was all set to buy a mbp but now i'm not so sure after hearing all the issues people are having with them. i like the idea of having the portability of a laptop but i also do a lot of processor/ram intensive audio editing and i want my machine to last as long as possible.


now i think i might go with the mac pro then pick up a used powerbook off ebay to do things on the go.

Best thing to do is go into an apple store and put your hands on both machines and run some apps. The mac pro is a thing of beauty is all I can say. It runs so smooth.

one thing to consider is if the 4 core mac pros they are selling are still woodcrest chips (the older xeon). I know the 8 core mac pro uses cloverton, the new xeon chip.

[update] they still use woodcrest for the quads, a slower chip with less L2 cache, this from the apple store:

About the Quad-Core Intel Xeon
The two Quad-Core Intel Xeon “Clovertown” processors put eight cores of processing power to work in your Mac Pro, delivering the most cores ever in a Mac. Other “Clovertown” features include:
8MB of L2 cache per processor (4MB shared per pair of cores), which boosts performance by keeping more data and instructions close to the processor cores
1.33GHz dual independent frontside buses that are perfectly suited to maximize processor bandwidth — up to 21.3GB per second — on a dual-processor system
About the Dual-Core Intel Xeon
Each Dual-Core Intel Xeon “Woodcrest” processor includes two execution cores, offering virtually twice the computational power of a single processor in the same space. Other “Woodcrest” features include:
4MB of shared L2 cache per processor
1.33GHz dual independent frontside buses for up to 21.3GB per second of processor bandwidth
Which processor is right for you? The more time you spend using processor-intensive applications — such as video processing, image editing, 3D rendering, and others — the more you’ll benefit from the higher-performance processors.

DZL
Jun 25, 2007, 05:39 PM
one thing to consider is if the 4 core mac pros they are selling are still woodcrest chips (the older xeon). I know the 8 core mac pro uses cloverton, the new xeon chip.

[update] they still use woodcrest for the quads, a slower chip with less L2 cache, this from the apple store:



is there a significant performance boost from the clovertown chip? it's a lot more expensive...

dartzorichalcos
Jun 25, 2007, 05:44 PM
is there a significant performance boost from the clovertown chip? it's a lot more expensive...

Check these websites:
http://www.macworld.com/2007/06/firstlooks/ochotests/index.php
http://www.barefeats.com/octopro1.html
http://www.barefeats.com/octopro2.html

DZL
Jun 25, 2007, 05:51 PM
Check these websites:
http://www.macworld.com/2007/06/firstlooks/ochotests/index.php
http://www.barefeats.com/octopro1.html
http://www.barefeats.com/octopro2.html

gotta love those rendertimes!!!

wow... maybe it is worth it - but it's almost $4K for that machine, as opposed to the $2750 for the 2.66mhz machine...

choices, choices.

feh
Jun 25, 2007, 05:51 PM
is there a significant performance boost from the clovertown chip? it's a lot more expensive...

or this link:

http://www.macrumors.com/2007/04/16/8-core-mac-pro-benchmarks/

but the bottom line is it's application specific -- whether the app in question can take advantage of 8 cores. As far as geekbench scores:

Macbook pro 2.4 3200
Mac Pro 2.66 5100
Mac Pro 8-core 3.0 8600

However if you use photoshop CS3 there is little improvement aparently. so again it's all about what applications you use and if they utilize 8 core processing (something you can research)

feh
Jun 25, 2007, 05:56 PM
gotta love those rendertimes!!!

wow... maybe it is worth it - but it's almost $4K for that machine, as opposed to the $2750 for the 2.66mhz machine...

choices, choices.

personally I'd spend more on the processors (8-core) as it's something that can't be upgraded and get less RAM and a smaller monitor for now and upgrade as you go.

another option is to wait for a refresh but the way things have been going lately with apple, these are coming more slowly.

DZL
Jun 25, 2007, 06:04 PM
personally I'd spend more on the processors (8-core) as it's something that can't be upgraded and get less RAM and a smaller monitor for now and upgrade as you go.

that's pretty good advice - it might be worth it; as this machine will last a looong time if i upgrade the ram...etc.

DarthTreydor
Jun 25, 2007, 06:36 PM
any idea when apple plans on updating the mac pros? i know they released the 8 core version recently but that's priced way out of my league. i'm looking more towards the base model.

only 1 gb or ram? i mean c'mon, this is supposed to be THE top-of-the-line computer which in many ways it is. but 1 gb is not going to cut it. also, the video card is pretty out of date. i dont really care that much about the video card since i don't do any gaming or video editing but the principle of it kinda bothers me.

feh
Jun 25, 2007, 06:49 PM
any idea when apple plans on updating the mac pros? i know they released the 8 core version recently but that's priced way out of my league. i'm looking more towards the base model.

only 1 gb or ram? i mean c'mon, this is supposed to be THE top-of-the-line computer which in many ways it is. but 1 gb is not going to cut it. also, the video card is pretty out of date. i dont really care that much about the video card since i don't do any gaming or video editing but the principle of it kinda bothers me.

They are discussing the intel processor roadmap (which affects a refresh) here:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=317984

As far as apple and RAM and GPUs this is nothing new. Apple is always behind in GPUs. The problem is that Apple does not use BIOS but something called EFI during the boot stage. This is a problem as almost all GPUs are designed for BIOS booting peecees, so the only video cards that'll boot into OSX properly are those with EFI provisions in their firmware.

As apple has been very unkind to third party companies over the years you can imagine how ATI and nVidia are less than enthusiastic to develop special EFI enabled chipsets for them, especially since the rate of return is minimal as apples aren't appreciable in either the business OR gaming segment...

Fortunately Electronic Arts has announced that it'll be porting a lot more of it's mega-crap francises to intel macs in the near future so expect a DX10 card with EFI soon(TM).

The mac pro ram is just expensive b/c it's not main stream ram. it's fully buffered and error correcting, which is designed for server/workstation/16GB motherboards. It's expensive b/c it's not been commodified like standard DDR2 non-ecc/non-fb ram.

Apple also realizes that it makes its money nickle and diming us on the options, like RAM, and that most serious mac pro buyers will opt for 2 and 1gb dimms all together as 512mb dimms are a waste of space if you want an 8 or 16gb setup.

DZL
Jun 25, 2007, 07:05 PM
any idea when apple plans on updating the mac pros? i know they released the 8 core version recently but that's priced way out of my league. i'm looking more towards the base model.

only 1 gb or ram? i mean c'mon, this is supposed to be THE top-of-the-line computer which in many ways it is. but 1 gb is not going to cut it. also, the video card is pretty out of date. i dont really care that much about the video card since i don't do any gaming or video editing but the principle of it kinda bothers me.

i totally agree - 1GB of ram for a high-end workstation is an embarrassment...

but - you could just get the 1GB, then upgrade as needed.

i found this ram at barefeats:

http://www.transintl.com/store/category.cfm?Category=2706

it doesn't seem like a bad deal...

tristan
Jun 26, 2007, 10:48 PM
The MBP is fine, but you need more power and screen real estate - i.e. the Mac Pro and a good monitor. But the problem is that now's not the greatest time to buy a desktop. Its very likely that the line will be updated in the next six weeks or so.

DZL
Jun 26, 2007, 11:22 PM
The MBP is fine, but you need more power and screen real estate - i.e. the Mac Pro and a good monitor. But the problem is that now's not the greatest time to buy a desktop. Its very likely that the line will be updated in the next six weeks or so.

didn't the mac pro just get a processor update (clovertown)?

i went ahead and ordered this:

on it's way (http://www.powermax.com/product/Mac_Pro_3.0GHz_%228-core%22_Intel_Xeon_Clovertown_processors/c-nmp-z0d8-142413.html)

1st thing to upgrade... more RAM.

dartzorichalcos
Jun 27, 2007, 01:34 AM
1st thing to upgrade... more RAM.

Install Leopard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_10.5) too.

overcast
Jun 27, 2007, 10:55 AM
personally I'd spend more on the processors (8-core) as it's something that can't be upgraded and get less RAM and a smaller monitor for now and upgrade as you go.

another option is to wait for a refresh but the way things have been going lately with apple, these are coming more slowly.
Huh? You can ABSOLUTELY upgrade the CPU's. Go with the base model and upgrade as see fit. Not to mention you can sell off the old CPU's when upgrading.

http://anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=2832&p=3