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MacRumors
Jul 16, 2003, 03:37 PM
PowerPage.org claims (http://www.powerpage.org/cgi-bin/WebObjects/powerpage.woa/wa/story?newsID=11240) that Apple has already received shipment of thousands of Bluetooth mice from a Taiwanese company.



AppleMatt
Jul 16, 2003, 04:13 PM
This would make sense, a mouse rather than a keyboard.

Good stuff.

AppleMatt

Sun Baked
Jul 16, 2003, 04:23 PM
For the AppleStore...

I thought that quanitities for inclusion with new machines were much larger than "thousands."

If it were 10's of thousands I may get excited at the possibility of a new mouse with the G5, but it's just thousands.

MacManDan
Jul 16, 2003, 04:23 PM
I agree with AppleMatt. Maybe they want to see how the mice would sell before the introduce the keyboards? (pure speculation)

I also think it would be nice if these bluetooth mice had some extra improvements .. such as an extra button or two and a scroll wheel.

So .. would these mice ship with a bluetooth adapter? Or would the poor people who don't have bluetooth have to buy it separately? $50 for the adapter, and (say) another $50-$60 for a mouse seems a bit steep.

Waluigi
Jul 16, 2003, 04:47 PM
I just donít see the point of having a wireless mouse. The cord for their mouse is less then a foot long, and plugs into the side of the keyboard. It is just not cost effective, or even practical to get a wireless mouse in that setup. I'd say this rumor is false. Either Apple releases both a wireless keyboard and mouse, or neither.


--Waluigi

astray
Jul 16, 2003, 05:07 PM
Waluigi, there is no real reason for thier to be wireless mice for the average person, yet there is a big market for them. As a pro option i don't think it is unlikely for a bluetooth mouse to exist.

AppleMatt
Jul 16, 2003, 05:11 PM
A wireless mouse would be useful for many people, i.e. lecturers, people with laptops (especially 12 and 17 with inbuilt bluetooth) etc etc

A wireless keyboard...not so much use. How often do you move your keyboard? It would just be a battery-eater.

AppleMatt

sonicsessions
Jul 16, 2003, 05:45 PM
I hate buying batteries for things... and as much as I use my mouse, I'd much rather my computer power it than some AA's...
If you are anything like me, you can never find the right batteries when you need them...

NavyIntel007
Jul 16, 2003, 07:16 PM
The only reason I'd get this is to compliment my powerbook when I'm on the road. So it better keep a good charge or have a viable battery replacement option. Otherwise, I have my logitech duo and I'm fine with that.

snofseth
Jul 16, 2003, 07:23 PM
why are many of you guys so down on a wireless mouse, I have one and it is so much better than a wired one, mine has a dock for recharge, if it didnt need a conection to the computer because of bluetooth it would be great, just have rechargable batteries and the problem is solved, I forget that my mouse has batteries.

ZildjianKX
Jul 16, 2003, 07:31 PM
Yeah, a bluetooth mouse would be sweet for the powerbook series. Personally, this is what I'd love to see:

Make it wired via firewire 400 so you can use it as a normal mouse (recharges the battery too).

Unplug the firewire cable and the bluetooth kicks in.

Scroll wheel and 2+ buttons would be very nice.

cr2sh
Jul 16, 2003, 08:36 PM
True true.. a bluetooth mouse from apple would be amazing. I've been itching to buy the micrsoft bluetooth mouse (*shutter*), but I know as soon as I do the apple will be released. In the keynote when steve said something like"so if you have a two button mouse.." i knew itd be on the way. apple was one of the first to push the optical pro-mouse, so blue-tooth would be great...

Battery replacement sucks, lets get one of those cool recharging cradles while we're at it, eh?

bertagert
Jul 16, 2003, 10:12 PM
People who don't think a wireless mouse and keyboard are useless, have never owned one. I have both and can't stand using another computer that doesn't.

For example:

I'm kicked back in my chair with the keyboard on my lap. Free to move in ant direction. (I know this isn't the way a lot of people do it but neither did I till I got the keyboard). I can also move it around and not worry about the wire and how its going to pull/tug on any of my papers or coffee mug. Its just better. Could I live with the wires? Well I did before I had wireless so i guess so. However, I could probably use dial-up for the web but would never want to.

The mouse is the same way. I can put stuff on the desk where ever I want and not worry about the cord. Count how many times you move a peice of paper tomorrow when using your mouse. Another nice thing is when someone comes over to your desk to show you something, hand them the mouse and they can rub it on their leg or where ever, to move the cursor. Might sound lame but those little things are great!

As for the bluetooth adaptor coming with the mouse/keyboard: If they and everyone else did it, you'd end up with a ton of adaptors so probably not.

Batteries: logitech has a craddle for recharging the batteries. I never worry about it.

Wireless devices are the best! As for bluetooth or radio...it doesn't really matter to me. I have the logitech setup and would never change.

ZildjianKX
Jul 16, 2003, 11:30 PM
No one likes my firewire recharging idea? Screw a cradle :)

AppleMatt
Jul 16, 2003, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by ZildjianKX
No one likes my firewire recharging idea? Screw a cradle :)

I think it has potential, but only for keyboards.

But then of course, keyboards don't really need to be wireless.

AppleMatt

zer0army
Jul 16, 2003, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by ZildjianKX
No one likes my firewire recharging idea? Screw a cradle :)

I like the firewire recharging idea. I think that would work and keep the desk less cluttered without a dock.

However your wrong about the G5's , they are NOT fugly!!!!!

noverflow
Jul 17, 2003, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by snofseth
why are many of you guys so down on a wireless mouse, I have one and it is so much better than a wired one, mine has a dock for recharge, if it didnt need a conection to the computer because of bluetooth it would be great, just have rechargable batteries and the problem is solved, I forget that my mouse has batteries.

Hate to tell you but you dont have a bluetooth mouse. MS has the only bluetooth mouse out right now and it does not have a cradle. Also, as of now bluetooth on the mac is not good enough for graphic design... the bluetooth's error correction is horrible and it causes the cursor to jump around.

PS your mouse is a proprietary wireless mouse... im guessing a kensington?

danielgrenell
Jul 17, 2003, 01:45 AM
Waluigi, i've owned 2 wireless mice, and after using them, i'd never go back to a corded mouse.

Analog Kid
Jul 17, 2003, 03:21 AM
USB connection maybe, Firewire no. Firewire has a higher current capacity, but I don't think you'd need it for a mouse.

As fun as it would be for the mouse to be bus master, I don't think it makes sense put a 400Mbps bus into a pointing device... Cost prohibitive, if nothing else.

This is why USB2.0 was a waste of comittee time...

Funny how some people think a wireless keyboard would be great and a wireless mouse would be stupid, and others think a wireless keyboard would be stupid but a wireless mouse would be the bee's knees, and some want both or neither to be wireless...

Personally, I'd say wire the keyboard and use it as a dock to recharge the mouse (docking the keyboard sounds like a nightmare!).

Then I'd say, if the mouse is wireless why are we keeping it stuck in 2 dimensions?

These guys took a baby step in the right direction:
http://www.extremetech.com/print_article/0,3998,a=43411,00.asp

But Apple could do so much more! I do like the fact that the Gyration has a fall back to the mouse mode we're all so comfortable (er, familiar?) with.

bertagert
Jul 17, 2003, 04:11 AM
Originally posted by noverflow
Hate to tell you but you dont have a bluetooth mouse. MS has the only bluetooth mouse out right now and it does not have a cradle. Also, as of now bluetooth on the mac is not good enough for graphic design... the bluetooth's error correction is horrible and it causes the cursor to jump around.

PS your mouse is a proprietary wireless mouse... im guessing a kensington?

He never said it was bluetooth. And its more than likely a MX700 from Logitech that he has.

People wondering about battery life:

My Logitech (Radio Frequency not Bluetooth) keyboard is going on two years with the same batteries (2 - AA batteries) and is still working like a champ.

My Logitech MX700 (Radio Frequency not Bluetooth) goes in its dock every night for recharging (have had it for 6 months and it's hasn't croaked yet, even without being recharged for 2 days and under heavy use).

Having a firewire charge the mouse really doesn't have pluses or minuses over a regular docking station. The only down sides to firewire would be that it charges slower and if your computer is off, the mouse doesn't get charged. The down side to a pluge-in-the-wall charger is you lose/need you find a extra outlet.

All in all, it isn't a huge deal if its bluetooth or RF (except that RF means you have the inconvience of having a usb cord connected to a receiver, which for laptop users, is a pain).

For giggles, I plugged back in my wired mouse and keyboard. Wires get in the way and drag around the desk. I say ditch them. I'm putting my wireless gear back in because wireless makes for clutter free and easy to use desktop.

slowtreme
Jul 17, 2003, 07:30 AM
Originally posted by Analog Kid
Then I'd say, if the mouse is wireless why are we keeping it stuck in 2 dimensions?

These guys took a baby step in the right direction:
http://www.extremetech.com/print_article/0,3998,a=43411,00.asp We can't even get Apple to give us 2 mouse buttons, and you want to go 3D ?

good luck ;)

Lord Bodak
Jul 17, 2003, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by bertagert
Having a firewire charge the mouse really doesn't have pluses or minuses over a regular docking station. The only down sides to firewire would be that it charges slower and if your computer is off, the mouse doesn't get charged. The down side to a pluge-in-the-wall charger is you lose/need you find a extra outlet.


I would rather have a firewire (or even USB) charge cable than a docking station-- the main reason I'd like a BT mouse is for convenience with a laptop, and it'd be a lot easier to pack a simple charging cable than a cradle and a power supply for it.

AppleMatt
Jul 17, 2003, 08:43 AM
and I think we're all forgetting...wireless looks cool

:cool:

AppleMatt

ntg
Jul 17, 2003, 08:54 AM
Well, I use a Microsoft Wireless Optical Mouse on my G4, and a Microsoft Bluetooth mouse on my iBook, and i don't have any real problems using either (although I have to 'connect' the wireless to the G4 each time I restart, I don't restart that often so.......)

I would recommend using either for general work, and for grahic design work, do what I do and use a Wacom instead!

ntg.:D

dongmin
Jul 17, 2003, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by Lord Bodak
I would rather have a firewire (or even USB) charge cable than a docking station-- the main reason I'd like a BT mouse is for convenience with a laptop, and it'd be a lot easier to pack a simple charging cable than a cradle and a power supply for it.

Firewire is overkill, me thinks. USB should provide enough power to charge a mouse.

What I'd like to see is a design like one of those retractable-corded mice that I saw at an Apple store. The cord retracts and tucks into a little compartment within the mouse. Pull it out and use it as a regular USB mouse when you need to recharge it. Otherwise, it's wireless. I hate the idea of carrying a separate charging cable. The idea of cordless is to simplify.

Kensington retractable USB mouse (http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/70806/wo/Y55gRBNMvzQx2B6WsJc1tAAA8Tb/1.3.0.5.8.3.4.13.0)

Lord Bodak
Jul 17, 2003, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by dongmin
Firewire is overkill, me thinks. USB should provide enough power to charge a mouse.

What I'd like to see is a design like one of those retractable-corded mice that I saw at an Apple store. The cord retracts and tucks into a little compartment within the mouse. Pull it out and use it as a regular USB mouse when you need to recharge it. Otherwise, it's wireless. I hate the idea of carrying a separate charging cable. The idea of cordless is to simplify.

That's even better. The other thing that a wireless mouse desperately needs (Microsoft's bluetooth mouse does not have this, I hear) is an on/off switch! I don't want to toss my mouse in my laptop bag only to get to my destination and find a button was pressed in the bag and drained my batteries.

And you're right, USB should be plenty to charge a mouse-- it can charge my Palm after all.

jettredmont
Jul 17, 2003, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by ZildjianKX
Yeah, a bluetooth mouse would be sweet for the powerbook series. Personally, this is what I'd love to see:

Make it wired via firewire 400 so you can use it as a normal mouse (recharges the battery too).

Unplug the firewire cable and the bluetooth kicks in.

Scroll wheel and 2+ buttons would be very nice.

(1) Too much likelihood of accidental unplugging ... firewire connectors are not designed for devices that are to be jerked all about routinely.

(2) USB would generally provide enough power to charge a mouse battery, unless Apple is going to 2 weeks of unplugged usage ...

(3) Firewire will stop charging the moment the computer is turned off.

redAPPLE
Jul 17, 2003, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by cr2sh


Battery replacement sucks, lets get one of those cool recharging cradles while we're at it, eh?

i do not know, if i am the first to say this, but...

apple could actually use a kinetic wireless mouse, right?

i actually do not know, how good this would work. but i once had a kinetic-powered watch. with the motion my hand or hand for that matter, the watch gets recharged.

in theory, the mouse would store the mileage and use it (somehow) as energy.

maybe a physics genius could comment on this.

this feature would be vintage Apple. we would then be saying, how did i ever live without such a mouse... :D

dietsoda
Jul 17, 2003, 12:55 PM
i do not know, if i am the first to say this, but...

apple could actually use a kinetic wireless mouse, right?


Hoorah! I suggested this in another thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=416959&perpage=1) , but nobody wanted to know. :(

At last! Another!

Whether it's possible though? No idea.

frozenstar
Jul 17, 2003, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by dietsoda
Hoorah! I suggested this in another thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=416959&perpage=1) , but nobody wanted to know. :(

At last! Another!

Whether it's possible though? No idea.

Do we really want gears and levers clanking around in our mice?
Personally, I prefer my mouse to be solid-state.

ethernet76
Jul 17, 2003, 04:12 PM
What about a keyboard with bluetooth and an attached mouse that plugs into the keyboard?

MacFan25
Jul 17, 2003, 04:23 PM
I really would like to see Apple announce a bluetooth mouse. I can't stand to see cords lying on my desk, and bluetooth could really help me minimize my number of cords.

redAPPLE
Jul 17, 2003, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by frozenstar
Do we really want gears and levers clanking around in our mice?
Personally, I prefer my mouse to be solid-state.

I think there is a rolex watch that does this. a rolex is solid-state.

naturally, Apple would build one, which surely won't fall apart.

BillyShears
Jul 17, 2003, 06:06 PM
I was thinking about how cool this would be... when a new user unpacks their iMac, they don't have to plug anything in except the computer. The mouse, keyboard are wireless. They just plug in the computer and press the "on" button. Would be slick.

Except... there's no way to power the keyboard/mouse. If you want batteries, you've got a bunch of pissed off people swapping batteries. Not something new computer users would want to do, I would think. (Though they do it with TV remotes, but still).

The other option is a recharger... but then you have wires, anyway, so what's the point?

Mind you, there is a market for wireless mice. I have one. I mostly use mine, though, because it's a trackball mouse. I can sit it on my lap, or air rest of my chair, and "surf" comfortably.

mproud
Jul 17, 2003, 07:04 PM
[total re-edit]

I find the more annoying thing is having a handy surface to use while relaxing in my chair. Even those who have armrests may find the need for a teflon pad or something similar.

What I truly want is a surface-less mouse - of course, there could be problems with that, and if you're going surface-less, then you probably want something that will recognize hand motions - most likely sensors - but again, this would be difficult since you would have to mount something or wear something on the finger.

Perhaps we need a small, roll-out trackpad (would almost have to be wireless) that you could lie or attach onto anything, such as the arm of a chair or your thigh... or, if you want to go cyborg, put it on your opposing arm - heh-heh...

The only other alternative (again, these are crude and primarily impractical) that I can think is a wireless pen/pointer onto a touch-like screen. Maybe these exist. The annoying thing, unless you can manipulate the laser, is the color from it might reflect or obstruct use, expecially on small screens. (And we'll forget about the personal danger with lasers!)

AppleMatt
Jul 17, 2003, 07:08 PM
The watches rely on movement in three dimensions to allow the weight to rotate (and thus power the watch). As a mouse only moves on a horizontal plane, it would not work.

Sorry guys!

AppleMatt

mproud
Jul 17, 2003, 07:25 PM
Upon further review, I'd have to concur. It would have to connect somehow through USB. It's only natural for the mouse to connect through the keyboard. This is how all of Apple's mice EVER MADE (exception?: MacPlus and earlier) have connected. It is true that Firewire is now on the front of desktop machines... but I think this is dedicated more for digital cameras.

Through the keyboard, and also allowing normal mouse recharging use with the cord connected. A cord would have to be supplied, perhaps 5 to 10 feet in length, that would adapt the mouse to the keyboard.

jaedreth
Jul 17, 2003, 07:44 PM
Apple would only do this in certain ways.

Apple *could* make a mouse/keyboard docking station connected via usb/usb2/firewire (with a short cord per normal) that can be charged by ac as well. Sell more. Sell separately from wireless mouse and keyboard...

Apparently the designation is Apple Mouse (Wireless) and Apple Keyboard (Wireless) so for these two devices, there won't be retractible cables, no cables at all.

They could use a small high powered battery that also works with the aforementioned docking station.

Hopefully they have a tiny usb port on each where you can plug in the included cable to the computer for charging.

In fact, I don't see how Apple could make a wireless mouse or keyboard that doesn't use either batteries or rechargable batteries without making them even more expensive than they are.

If they did make these devices with firewire connections, they would be the new style ones on the iPod, which can communicate FW and USB2. Much smaller connections. It would make sense for those on the front of the mouse and the back of the keyboard.

With powered mouse and keyboard, they would be able to do things with it they couldn't before, such as some of the rumored mouse designed posted various places, 2 button, scroll circle, highly programmable, and a way to store your custom function assignments on the mouse itself so if you unplug it and take it to a different mac, all your settings are still there despite what user in OS X. Now that would be sweet.

Jaedreth

gunnmjk
Jul 17, 2003, 11:33 PM
All they need is a wireless keyboard. That'd be tight cause you could still plug the USB mouse into it, but the signal would all be sent via bluetooth. Tight or what?

redAPPLE
Jul 18, 2003, 02:46 AM
Originally posted by AppleMatt
The watches rely on movement in three dimensions to allow the weight to rotate (and thus power the watch). As a mouse only moves on a horizontal plane, it would not work.

Sorry guys!

AppleMatt

very interesting. thx for the info. if a kinetic-powered mouse is not possible, then a "cool" Apple wireless mouse may not be possible.

people here, would hate wasting money on batteries (although some here says the batteries last until 2 years), or having a recharger (dock, hub) sitting on the desk. id rather use a mouse with a wire, than having a dock clutter my desk.

Lord Bodak
Jul 18, 2003, 07:11 AM
Originally posted by AppleMatt
The watches rely on movement in three dimensions to allow the weight to rotate (and thus power the watch). As a mouse only moves on a horizontal plane, it would not work.


I know there are new watches that work this way, but the old ones used to just use the swinging of your arm as you walked, like a pendulum. The idea was to eliminate winding of a mechanical watch rather than charging a battery with the energy of the motion, like the new ones.

Either way, not much help for a mouse. If we wanted to go back to wheel mice, you could probably use the spinning of the rollers to help recharge a battery, but nobody would want to do that.

Lord Bodak
Jul 18, 2003, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by gunnmjk
All they need is a wireless keyboard. That'd be tight cause you could still plug the USB mouse into it, but the signal would all be sent via bluetooth. Tight or what?

What about laptops?

I still think a bluetooth mouse with USB recharging would be the best solution. If it's plugged in, it recharges the batteries over USB and works like a normal corded mouse. Unplug the cord and it's a Bluetooth mouse.

You could do a wireless keyboard and have the mouse connect to it, but they would want to stick with standard USB so you could use the mouse with or without the keyboard, plus the mouse would be running off the keyboard's batteries, which would hurt battery life.

tmornini
Jul 18, 2003, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by AppleMatt
The watches rely on movement in three dimensions to allow the weight to rotate (and thus power the watch). As a mouse only moves on a horizontal plane, it would not work.

OK, so you're either claiming:

1) The ONLY way to capture kinetic energy is in 3 dimensions.
2) It MUST be done the same way watches do it.

Either way, you're wrong.

There's NOTHING TECHNICAL preventing Apple from using energy captured from your hand movements to power a mouse.

There may well be PRACTICALITY issues, however.

AppleMatt
Jul 18, 2003, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by tmornini
OK, so you're either claiming:

1) The ONLY way to capture kinetic energy is in 3 dimensions.
2) It MUST be done the same way watches do it.

Either way, you're wrong.

There's NOTHING TECHNICAL preventing Apple from using energy captured from your hand movements to power a mouse.

There may well be PRACTICALITY issues, however.

What? I'm claiming neither. Put it into context. We were talking about watches, so my reply stated how watches convert kinetic to electrical energy. I did not say the only way to capture energy was in 3 dimensions (inductor coils anyone?), nor did I say that the watch mechanism was the only way to do it.

Read my posts before you reply.

Suggest a method of capturing enough energy from movement in two dimensions that would power the mouse, and the transmitter in it. (inductor coils not allowed)

AppleMatt

snofseth
Jul 18, 2003, 07:35 PM
if you have to plug something into the computer it defeats the perpouse of having the bluetooth mouse so you dont need any wires. All you need is a dock that plugs into a wall outlet. and if your spended the extra money for a wireless mouse why would you want any option to have a wire for it. I hope its a bluetooth mouse with a dock that does not connect to the computer just to the wall outlet. It would be great for my 12" powerbook

Spock
Jul 19, 2003, 09:23 AM
All I want is a ERGO style keyboard like the one on my Color Classic. It would also go better with th iMac if it were curved like the front of the iMac.

Lord Bodak
Jul 19, 2003, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by snofseth
if you have to plug something into the computer it defeats the perpouse of having the bluetooth mouse so you dont need any wires. All you need is a dock that plugs into a wall outlet. and if your spended the extra money for a wireless mouse why would you want any option to have a wire for it. I hope its a bluetooth mouse with a dock that does not connect to the computer just to the wall outlet. It would be great for my 12" powerbook

I see a few problems with this.
First is the size issue. If it plugs into the wall, you're going to need a transformer, which means carrying yet another brick in your laptop bag. Charging via USB would be a small cable and if it directly connected to the mouse (no dock) that makes it even easier to carry.

Second, if you require AC power, what happens when you're on a plane and your mouse dies? With a USB charge cable, you'd just have to plug it into the computer.

There is a happy medium here though. No dock (power cord plugs directly into mouse), and let us use USB or an AC adapter. Works great for my PDA!

amnesiac1984
Jul 21, 2003, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by redAPPLE
I think there is a rolex watch that does this. a rolex is solid-state.

naturally, Apple would build one, which surely won't fall apart.

I'm sorry but how on earth can a rolex that has hands ticking around in a circular motion be solid state?

RGunner
Jul 21, 2003, 01:54 PM
they use a rotating dial on a cam which self winds the watch.