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MacRumors
Jul 9, 2007, 06:58 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Readers may remember the MacHeist scavenger hunt bundle (http://www.macrumors.com/2006/12/15/macheist-software-bundle-ending-this-weekend/) last year which offered a final 10 application bundle (value $307.74) for $49.

This morning, MacUpdate (http://www.macupdate.com) has launched a week-long sale offering 10 Mac applications ($433.82 value) for $49.99. These applications include:

• GraphicConverter (http://www.lemkesoft.com/) - image editor/converter
• Fetch (http://www.fetchsoftworks.com/) - FTP Client
• iWOW (http://www.srs-store.com/store-plugins/mall/iwow-plugin.asp) - iTunes audio enhancement plug in
• GarageSale (http://www.iwascoding.com/GarageSale/) - eBay auction software
• Cocktail (http://www.maintain.se/cocktail/index.php) - Mac OS X system utility
• ProfCast (http://www.profcast.com/public/index.php) - Record presentations for podcasts
• Amadeus Pro (http://www.hairersoft.com/AmadeusPro/AmadeusPro.html) - Multitrack Audio editor
• Little Snitch * (http://www.obdev.at/products/littlesnitch/) - Prevents applications from "phoning home".
• Intaglio * (http://www.purgatorydesign.com/Intaglio/) - Drawing and Illustration
• TechTool Pro * (http://www.micromat.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=31) - Repair utility

* Three of the applications are "locked" unless a certain number of goal sales are met. 2500 sales for Little Snitch, 4000 sales for Intaglio and 9999 sales for TechTool Pro. Once unlocked, they will be available for everyone who purchased a bundle.

The MacHeist crew (http://macheist.com/macupdate) have partnered with MacUpdate and added value to the bundle by adding in the following applications if you purchase through them (for a limited time):

• Browseback (http://www.smileonmymac.com/browseback/index.html) - Visual web history
• Exces (http://excesapp.com/) - Password protect files
• "Secret Application" - to be announced
• Beta spot for Pixelmator (http://www.pixelmator.com/) - Image editor with Core Image
• Beta spot for Flow (http://extendmac.com/flow/privatebeta/) - brings FTP and editing together
• Free ticket to enter the next MacHeist Skunkworks project early

Visit MacHeist (http://macheist.com/macupdate/) (Note: website will active your iSight camera) to purchase special bundle.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/07/08/macupdate-software-bundle-sale/)



Agent Smith
Jul 9, 2007, 07:03 AM
The price is worth it for Cocktail and TechTool alone! Not too shabby at all!

paddy
Jul 9, 2007, 07:05 AM
That does seem like a fairly unreal deal alright!

andiwm2003
Jul 9, 2007, 07:05 AM
the price is worth it for intaglio alone. i hope they get unlocked. for $50 i take the chance. what are the chances?

Abstract
Jul 9, 2007, 07:09 AM
Yeah, I actually want PixelMator, but all they're giving you is a beta of that software, right? It's not like they're throwing that into the bundle. That software is definitely something I really really want, just because it has many Photoshop-ish features, but probably runs faster (I don't have CS3). Intaglio also makes the deal sweet. That alone could make the package worth $49. PixelMator would have enticed me to pay more for the package.

eenu
Jul 9, 2007, 07:12 AM
I'd rather pay full price into the pocket of these great developers.

andiwm2003
Jul 9, 2007, 07:21 AM
I'd rather pay full price into the pocket of these great developers.

aeh..wouldn't the developer not participate if it's not a good deal for them?

bikechess
Jul 9, 2007, 07:24 AM
If you want a simple but powerful drawing tool, Intaglio is phenomenal. Its basic features are useable form day 1, and by day 10 you can be a "master." I use it daily for schematics and other scientific drawings. And, of course, its nice for small edits on family photos, etc.

eenu
Jul 9, 2007, 07:24 AM
aeh..wouldn't the developer not participate if it's not a good deal for them?

No, developers use it to get exposure to the programs..... snare people in then you keep buying their updates. The actual financial deal they get from MH i believe is not great. As such i would rather pay these guys in full for all their hard work.

GoCubsGo
Jul 9, 2007, 07:27 AM
I think I'll jump on board. Fact is I'm weary of the rest not being unlocked, but there are enough people out there where I think it may become unlocked.

Bubbasteve
Jul 9, 2007, 07:29 AM
I bought last year's bundle and I could see myself buying this year's as well

...even if Phil Ryu is a profiting weasel

flashy-cat
Jul 9, 2007, 07:39 AM
Clicked on the MacHeist link and their site activates the webcam on my iMac.

Can't crap like this be blocked?

Mudo
Jul 9, 2007, 07:47 AM
Clicked on the MacHeist link and their site activates the webcam on my iMac.

Can't crap like this be blocked?

Gah! I thought I got away from crap like this happening when I switched!

Shame on MacRumors; aligning yourself this way on page one in an obvious attempt to generate revenue. I'm all for you making a buck on the site and all, but that's just pretty sleazy. What's the need for it even?

Seriously makes me want to get a nice little piece of electrical tape for the future...

Digital Skunk
Jul 9, 2007, 07:50 AM
Most of the apps on this heist suck. I don't need free image editors and two different FTP softwares. I already have Fetch and barely use it.... but TechTool Pro is sweet. I would pay $50 just to get that app at alone at half price and dump much of the rest. I just hope that this weasel guy that everyone speaks of makes his quota so he can unlock it.

Last years heist had some good apps that were actually kinda useful. I should hopped on that one.

willybNL
Jul 9, 2007, 07:53 AM
May i note i hate this page (http://skunkworks.macheist.com/signup?si=DG256DG256) because it automatically actives my iSight... How can i force apps to first ask this (APPLE!)?.

Abstract
Jul 9, 2007, 07:56 AM
No, developers use it to get exposure to the programs..... snare people in then you keep buying their updates. The actual financial deal they get from MH i believe is not great. As such i would rather pay these guys in full for all their hard work.

Ok, but Intaglio is $89 on their website, and it's $49 through this package (along with every other app). I'd happily pay $49 for Intaglio if you figure out a way of doing so. Otherwise, I can't really afford to just give an extra $40 to them based on your word. :confused:

I'd happily pay $49 for Intaglio because it's the only app I can see myself using semi-frequently. Having Coctail would be nice, but it's not like I get to play with it, nor is my system unstable without it. However, knowing this deal is around, I wouldn't pay $89 when I can pay $49......not as a student with no income at the moment. :o

nsbio
Jul 9, 2007, 08:02 AM
I'd happily pay $49 for Intaglio because it's the only app I can see myself using semi-frequently. Having Coctail would be nice, but it's not like I get to play with it, nor is my system unstable without it. However, knowing this deal is around, I wouldn't pay $89 when I can pay $49......not as a student with no income at the moment. :o

Seconded. Intaglio alone is worth (to some people, including myself) the price of admission. The program has been a life saver for me and was worth to me several times over, even considering that I paid for two licences at $89 each.

Small White Car
Jul 9, 2007, 08:08 AM
I'd rather pay full price into the pocket of these great developers.

I totally agreed with this reasoning last time they did this. I wasn't a fan either.

But round 2? Unlike the first time, all of these guys should know exactly what they're getting to. You can't make the case that they weren't aware going in.

So I don't see any problem promoting this one.

Porchland
Jul 9, 2007, 08:11 AM
Thanks. Please let us know when Ford restarts its SUV rebates and when the panty sales starts at Victoria's Secret.

Why don't you just charge them and call it an ad?

Abstract
Jul 9, 2007, 08:24 AM
I HATE(!!) how the MacHeist website turns on your iSight automatically when you enter their website. :mad:

Seconded. Intaglio alone is worth (to some people, including myself) the price of admission. The program has been a life saver for me and was worth to me several times over, even considering that I paid for two licences at $89 each.

Jesus, is Intaglio THAT good?!?!

The fact that I'm now also interested in GarageSale makes this bundle worth it IF I can get Intaglio. I'll go for this package once sales hit 2500 (and with a reasonable amount of time remaining). The rest.....well, I could live without it. However, Coctail would be nice to own, I guess.

Also, MacUpdate is the one offering it. I'm not going to buy it from MacHeist at all, despite the extra beta software and "secret app" they're promising. eenu can sleep tonight without losing too much sleep over it. ;)

Buy it through MacUpdate if you don't believe in what MacHeist stands for. I am. I even wrote a message at the MacHeist website if you want to read it.

200paul
Jul 9, 2007, 08:40 AM
Yeah this is really an ad. You've lost integrity here Arn.

psychofreak
Jul 9, 2007, 08:42 AM
Yeah this is really an ad. You've lost integrity here Arn.

Macrumors often displays price-cuts etc. when they are of interest to members...

Not long ago was a story on the new Parallels upgrade price...

iSee
Jul 9, 2007, 08:45 AM
That's funny, a big ad just appeared where page one stories usually go.
Really strange. I hope MR can fix this soon...

macenforcer
Jul 9, 2007, 08:45 AM
I am losing my respect for macrumors. This is sleazy.

F.D.
Jul 9, 2007, 08:47 AM
Okay, I know I'm being a bit thick here, but what is this 'unlocking' thing?

If I pay my $49 am I getting full, useable non time-limited versions of all this software or not?

plumbingandtech
Jul 9, 2007, 08:50 AM
First TUAW.com turns into a MacHeist Spam site.. Now macrumors?

Please tell us this is the last time. Please.

devilot
Jul 9, 2007, 08:52 AM
Okay, I know I'm being a bit thick here, but what is this 'unlocking' thing?

If I pay my $49 am I getting full, useable non time-limited versions of all this software or not?Of the listed applications offered by MacUpdate (the first list), the three with asterisks (• Little Snitch • Intaglio • TechTool Pro) will not be offered unless x number of people purchase the package thereby "unlocking" it and making it available.

MacPhreak
Jul 9, 2007, 08:54 AM
Okay, I know I'm being a bit thick here, but what is this 'unlocking' thing?

If I pay my $49 am I getting full, useable non time-limited versions of all this software or not?

My reading of it is that unless the required number purchase the package, the software is locked down, as in, unusable.

Personally, I don't think it's smart to put the most desired applications (save for GraphicConverter) as the 'Locked' ones. Less people will buy the package, there is a definite chance you won't get the app you wanted in the first place.

joepunk
Jul 9, 2007, 08:54 AM
I'm loving my powerbook w/o an isight :cool:

maybe i should have purchased the first bundle if only for a few thing on it, oh well.

I could see myself using techtool pro, cocktail, and iwow. I might play around w/pixelmator, intagilo and maybe graphicconverter. don't really need image editors as i have PScs. But it might be nice to have a faster starting application for just adjusting photos for internet use.

macenforcer
Jul 9, 2007, 08:57 AM
Of the listed applications offered by MacUpdate (the first list), the three with asterisks (• Little Snitch • Intaglio • TechTool Pro) will not be offered unless x number of people purchase the package thereby "unlocking" it and making it available.

Screw that. That is one lame deal. I'm not buying that package in HOPES it sells for more so I can get a key. Hey can always deny they sold and never send you a key. How can you prove it????

JPark
Jul 9, 2007, 09:00 AM
I don't get it. What does this have to do with iPhone? Maybe I'm on the wrong site. :p

devilot
Jul 9, 2007, 09:01 AM
Personally, I don't think it's smart to put the most desired applications (save for GraphicConverter) as the 'Locked' ones. Less people will buy the package...

Screw that. That is one lame deal. I'm not buying that package in HOPES it sells for more so I can get a key. Hey can always deny they sold and never send you a key. How can you prove it???? :) If you check the link in the OP with the text, "MacHeist scavenger hunt bundle (http://www.macrumors.com/2006/12/15/macheist-software-bundle-ending-this-weekend/)," you'll see that it is a concept that can most certainly work. Obviously more in favor of the business, but such is capitalism, no? It's a genius business approach.

Is it great for consumers in the first place? No, not really.

FYI, I'm not saying to buy or not buy this package, just trying to clarify what little I can read into this.

MacPhreak
Jul 9, 2007, 09:10 AM
:) If you check the link in the OP with the text, "MacHeist scavenger hunt bundle (http://www.macrumors.com/2006/12/15/macheist-software-bundle-ending-this-weekend/)," you'll see that it is a concept that can most certainly work. Obviously more in favor of the business, but such is capitalism, no? It's a genius business approach.

Is it great for consumers in the first place? No, not really.

FYI, I'm not saying to buy or not buy this package, just trying to clarify what little I can read into this.

Yeah, I've been around for a while. I used Apple II's before there was a Mac. I remember the last MacHeist. I also remember lots of very angry developers.

macenforcer deciding not to buy based on the chance of getting something proves my point. I didn't say ALL people would think that way, just some, and possibly enough to keep the numbers from getting high enough to unlock the package you want. Gambling is an addiction, no?

Teddy's
Jul 9, 2007, 09:10 AM
May i note i hate this page (http://skunkworks.macheist.com/signup?si=DG256DG256) because it automatically actives my iSight... How can i force apps to first ask this (APPLE!)?.

yeah? why??

And I was wearing my birthday suit! :mad:

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!

Sly
Jul 9, 2007, 09:12 AM
Looks like MacRumors are on the payroll of this one. Why do MacRumors and Arn in particular want to undermine a great site that we all make use of like Macupdate? Sorry am I missing something here?

ortuno2k
Jul 9, 2007, 09:12 AM
Just because you're not interested on the bundle doesn' mean it's adware and other people aren't interested - this is fine to post here, imho.
I had only heard of one of these apps, techtoolpro, and none of the others. I don't use many 3rd party software on my Mac, so being introduced to something like this is neat.
Stop the hatin'!
:o

elppa
Jul 9, 2007, 09:21 AM
PixelMator could be huge if they are done well.

Flow looks nice too, although it's a shame we can't see the editor yet. It's a crowded market in that area as well.

It's quite like PS in terms of UI (patents?), but makes use of some nice features of the Mac, like the CoreImage, the HUD, iSight, Automater, use of .Mac to backup preferences, brushes, palettes etc.

I'll take a good look at it.

I could also see Apple buying them out and creating a pro image editor to complement (never know which one to use! Edit: thanks Dictionary) Aperture.

Teddy's
Jul 9, 2007, 09:26 AM
tuff tuff... marketing marketing! money money! The downpayment for my SUV! oh yeah, I want mine in olive green.

Good apps though.

yeah, I am still pretty mad about the isight thing. Part of the blame goes to Apple to let that happen (somehow).

Good hack though.

Jimmdean
Jul 9, 2007, 09:28 AM
I guess if the developers are ok with it, I'm ok with it. I do like how it keeps a count of how many are sold - I think I'll give it a couple days and see how high it gets...

ImAlwaysRight
Jul 9, 2007, 09:28 AM
Awesome! I pay $50 and cannot even access the best titles unless 10,000 people buy in (unlikely), sold by a peeping Tom. Not to mention I've got to give a shady character like this my contact and financial info. Nothing like the gutter of American capitalism. :rolleyes:

Eraserhead
Jul 9, 2007, 09:28 AM
Yeah, I've been around for a while. I used Apple II's before there was a Mac. I remember the last MacHeist. I also remember lots of very angry developers.

They know exactly what happened last time, and they can talk to the developers who got involved, deals like this happen because there is lots of competition, I will certainly be picking this up but I doubt I would buy the applications separately.

These deals are designed to enable people to buy the applications who wouldn't normally buy them. See this good article (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/CamelsandRubberDuckies.html) for why.

Arstechnica for one will certainly promote this bundle too, I don't see the problem as it's a good deal for us, it's like the links to the Apple Store on the homepage.

Fwink!
Jul 9, 2007, 09:31 AM
I'll never buy any software package that has elements that are unlocked unless THEY are successful in getting enough numbers sold. To hell with that.

Can't wait for the droves of people who've bought into it to start pestering everyone to buy in, once they realize that they won't get the good software...

Abstract
Jul 9, 2007, 09:35 AM
Looks like MacRumors are on the payroll of this one. Why do MacRumors and Arn in particular want to undermine a great site that we all make use of like Macupdate? Sorry am I missing something here?

Exactly. Their job is to get people to buy this bundle through MacHeist in order to steal sales from MacUpdate? Why....because someone else used MacHeist's "marketing" idea? It's not exactly a new concept. They just did it with software. Also, marketing ideas are borrowed all the time. It's not MacHeists idea.


I like MacUpdate. Anyhow, I'd likely buy the package through MacUpdate rather than MacHeist, despite MacRumors' affiliation with MacHeist. MacHeist seems like the sneakier group in this situation, not MacUpdate.




PixelMator could be huge if they are done well.


But they're not actually giving this to you. MacHeist is only giving you the "privilege" of being a beta tester for another company. How nice of them. ;)

Buy the package deal from HERE (http://www.mupromo.com/).

Eraserhead
Jul 9, 2007, 09:37 AM
I'll never buy any software package that has elements that are unlocked unless THEY are successful in getting enough numbers sold. To hell with that.

It is only £25, I think the chances of them not selling enough to get Tech Tool Pro is small, though it is a gamble. But you can only get the Mac Heist applications at the beginning so <shrug>.

pgwalsh
Jul 9, 2007, 09:42 AM
9999 purchases seems like a lot to get the full deal. Is there a link to how many have/haven't signed up for the deal and can you opt out if it doesn't reach the goal. I haven't checked the link. :p

eenu
Jul 9, 2007, 09:43 AM
oh you have found websites slagging Phil Ryu off? Saying how he rips devs off? Where are they?

Small White Car
Jul 9, 2007, 09:46 AM
oh you have found websites slagging Phil Ryu off? Saying how he rips devs off? Where are they?

Well, here's a start:

http://daringfireball.net/2006/12/macheist_lousy_tshirt

http://daringfireball.net/2006/12/iniquities_of_the_selfish

syklee26
Jul 9, 2007, 09:49 AM
has anyone used iWow thingee?

eenu
Jul 9, 2007, 09:49 AM
Well, here's a start:

http://daringfireball.net/2006/12/macheist_lousy_tshirt

http://daringfireball.net/2006/12/iniquities_of_the_selfish

i wasn't saying they didn't exist btw i wanted you to post some links :p

SHAME ON MAC RUMORS!

shecky
Jul 9, 2007, 09:50 AM
so if i pay my $25 to macrumors to be a contributor and get the site ad-free, does that include not having to see this advertisement disguised as a post on the front page as well?

F.D.
Jul 9, 2007, 09:55 AM
Of the listed applications offered by MacUpdate (the first list), the three with asterisks (• Little Snitch • Intaglio • TechTool Pro) will not be offered unless x number of people purchase the package thereby "unlocking" it and making it available.

I had a sneaky suspicion that's what it meant, but I thought I'd check before passing up the offer.

Shame really, because I was after Intaglio more than anything. I'd rather just pay for the damn application than take my chances with something like this. Anyone know what the track record of offers like this are?

Agent Smith
Jul 9, 2007, 09:57 AM
"Insider" knowledge and google searches aside, I think that supporting the unethical business model that MacHeist has done and is apparently doing now gives it legitimacy, and I think, correct me if I'm wrong, this is what Eenu is arguing. What MacHeist offers to these independent developers is not done in good faith.

This is, of course, my opinion, and everyone is entitled to it. :D

Abstract
Jul 9, 2007, 10:01 AM
Well, here's a start:

http://daringfireball.net/2006/12/macheist_lousy_tshirt

http://daringfireball.net/2006/12/iniquities_of_the_selfish

After reading the 2nd link (never read the first link), I'm definitely not buying it through MacHeist, nor through MacUpdate, either. :o


And then there's the lost respect to Arn, who is participating in this sort of thing via MacHeist.....

Badradio
Jul 9, 2007, 10:06 AM
I'm not saying I support MacHeist and their business model, but I checked it out last time. The only app that interested me was Disco (http://http://www.discoapp.com/), so instead of paying the package price, I went and bought it direct from the developer's site. As far as the publicity the developers get from participating, I can't say it doesn't work.

twoodcc
Jul 9, 2007, 10:07 AM
well it seems like a good deal to me. But the programs aren't really for me though.

aLoC
Jul 9, 2007, 10:17 AM
It's not as compelling as the original MacHeist bundle.

koobcamuk
Jul 9, 2007, 10:22 AM
Clicked on the MacHeist link and their site activates the webcam on my iMac.

Can't crap like this be blocked?

Said there was an error for my MacBook. Maybe I have too much porn... :rolleyes: (is there ever such a thing?)

Fwink!
Jul 9, 2007, 10:28 AM
I wonder if all these "great" apps are going to be leopard compatible, or might they require an update?


yeah, I'll pass.

pgwalsh
Jul 9, 2007, 10:29 AM
You know, I'm not so sure I feel badly for the developers. It's not like they are forced to agree to the terms and conditions. This is an avenue of marketing for them. If they don't think it's worth it, then they don't have to participate. Badmouthing MacRumors and MacHeist for trying to get you a good deal doesn't really work for me.

If Micromat thought they were getting a crappy deal they wouldn't have done it. They've been around a long time and you're suggesting that they're dumb for making this deal. Not sure I agree. If each developer does get $5.00 per app and there's 10 applications and the bundle is $49.99, then it doesn't sound like MacHeist is making a heist. Of course the dirt is in the details, but no one but the developers and MacHeist knows what they are.

To me this is a form of marketing and marketing costs money.

Eraserhead
Jul 9, 2007, 10:31 AM
MacHeist didn't switch on my webcam on my Macbook...

Here (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/CamelsandRubberDuckies.html) is why developers are taking part.

The reason they aren't taking part again is that most major Mac developers only have one or two applications, and once they have hooked you with one they can cross promote their other applications to you so these deals aren't worthwhile to re-participate in.

yagran
Jul 9, 2007, 10:54 AM
Free Bundle Give Away!

oops i bought the bundle twice by accident :( anybody want a free bundle? pm me quickly if you do. include 2-5 lines on why you should have my free bundle... first decent reply gets it :)

UPDATE ok ive given it away now.

congrats to:-

GooMan for getting:
• GraphicConverter - image editor/converter
• Fetch - FTP Client
• iWOW - iTunes audio enhancement plug in
• GarageSale - eBay auction software
• Cocktail - Mac OS X system utility
• ProfCast - Record presentations for podcasts
• Amadeus Pro - Multitrack Audio editor

and devilot who will be getting:
• Little Snitch * - Prevents applications from "phoning home".
• Intaglio * - Drawing and Illustration
• TechTool Pro * - Repair utility
• Browseback - Visual web history
• Exces - Password protect files
• "Secret Application" - to be announced
• Beta spot for Pixelmator - Image editor with Core Image
• Beta spot for Flow - brings FTP and editing together
• Free ticket to enter the next MacHeist Skunkworks project early
(will be with you asap)

sorry its gone. please dont pm me anymore :D

BKKbill
Jul 9, 2007, 10:55 AM
This just sounds like a lottery. It might be better to spend 2 bucks and who knows if you win you could buy all this stuff and get a good chunk of apple stock sounds like a better deal in my humble opinion. :rolleyes:

AmbitiousLemon
Jul 9, 2007, 11:05 AM
Last time the developers made 1.1% while MacHeist made 90% profit. Thats roughly $5000 for each developer and $500,000 for MacHeist. This time the deal is nearly the same.

The devs would be better off if you pirated the software instead.

I've been assured by the MacUpdate promoters that their deal is different than the MacHeist one.

I have also been repeatedly told that the above figures are a lie, but those who provided them to me disagree. I guess its just up to each of us who to believe - I honestly would like to believe the MacHeist guys, but I don't really understand why the developers involved would lie about what they got.

yagran
Jul 9, 2007, 11:07 AM
Last time the developers made 1.1% while MacHeist made 90% profit. Thats roughly $5000 for each developer and $500,000 for MacHeist. This time the deal is nearly the same.

The devs would be better off if you pirated the software instead.

If they didnt want to sell their programs in the bundle then they could have just sed no! it was their choice!!!

eenu
Jul 9, 2007, 11:09 AM
You know, I'm not so sure I feel badly for the developers. It's not like they are forced to agree to the terms and conditions. This is an avenue of marketing for them. If they don't think it's worth it, then they don't have to participate. Badmouthing MacRumors and MacHeist for trying to get you a good deal doesn't really work for me.

If Micromat thought they were getting a crappy deal they wouldn't have done it. They've been around a long time and you're suggesting that they're dumb for making this deal. Not sure I agree. If each developer does get $5.00 per app and there's 10 applications and the bundle is $49.99, then it doesn't sound like MacHeist is making a heist. Of course the dirt is in the details, but no one but the developers and MacHeist knows what they are.

To me this is a form of marketing and marketing costs money.

I've just spoken to a Dev who is taking part. Last time they were offered a fix fee of $5000, this year it was slightly higher ie 6-7k. I could not get a proper figure due to NDAs.

When approached they are not allowed to negotiate and its fix fee or no fee.

NOTE: This is only information that has been passed to me and maybe not factually correct

AmbitiousLemon
Jul 9, 2007, 11:13 AM
To me this is a form of marketing and marketing costs money.

Even boxing promoters don't take a 90% cut of the profits while giving 1% to their clients.

This is even worse than what musicians get from the major labels.

pgwalsh
Jul 9, 2007, 11:15 AM
I've just spoken to a Dev who is taking part. Last time they were offered a fix fee of $5000, this year it was slightly higher ie 6-7k. I could not get a proper figure due to NDAs.

When approached they are not allowed to negotiate and its fix fee or no fee.

NOTE: This is only information that has been passed to me and maybe not factually correctEverything is negotiable and you don't have to participate. Maybe you can't negotiate your fixed fee, but apparently Micromat negotiated on how many copies are sold before they grant a deal. 10,000 new customers is a nice bit of exposure, especially if a number of those upgrade when the new OS X comes out. As I said, it's marketing and you're not forced to do it.

All the companies have to weigh the positives and negatives. They wouldn't participate if they felt that they were getting a bad deal or it's not worth the exposure. Plus customers are getting a killer deal.

pgwalsh
Jul 9, 2007, 11:19 AM
Even boxing promoters don't take a 90% cut of the profits while giving 1% to their clients.

This is even worse than what musicians get from the major labels.

This is a promotional tool. The difference between this and a strait up advertisement is that you're actually getting some money back while garnering a larger customer base. You're actually guaranteeing yourself a new customer base at a specified expense.

You're just bitter that MacHeist is making money off a marketing campaign that no ones is forced to participate in. That's silly.

moosecat
Jul 9, 2007, 11:30 AM
To repeat a sentiment that a few others have expressed, I'm having some trouble understanding why I should feel bad for the developers who have signed on for this. Perhaps they've made a bad business decision. Perhaps (and only perhaps), they could make more money if they didn't put their software into these bundles. But I don't generally live my life feeling bad for companies that make bad business decisions and refusing to give business to companies that make good ones.

For me, it comes down to whether the developers had complete information about the deal and were not misled or lied to. Is there any evidence of deception? If not, I don't see anything unethical here.

sabbath999
Jul 9, 2007, 11:31 AM
It is totally excellent and a lifesaver for ebay sellers, but I already have it.

pgwalsh
Jul 9, 2007, 11:35 AM
Well I can't argue the charity aspect, that's pretty despicable. If he made a promise to donate a specified amount then he should honor his offer. There may be legal implications there as well.

That's great that you know "all" the devs and all I can do is shake my head at them for signing up for a deal they feel they got burned on. I know how it feels to get burned, lesson learned.

I remember when I worked for a small technology ecommerce site that was a software reseller. We once offered to sell a small Windows application developers application. He was so excited a reseller was going to sell his product he offered us 50 free versions. I told him he was nuts and to keep his offer and just send us a couple so we could have them reviewed. I guess the point is everyone makes mistakes.

Needless to say, no one has to sign up for a deal like this.

arn
Jul 9, 2007, 11:37 AM
Perhaps I shouldn't weigh in since I'm seen as part of the "man" in this scenario... but MacRumors participated in the first macheist promo as a promotional effort to provide MacRumors with additional exposure. This is just a continuation of that, and also a good deal on some Mac software.

This is a MacUpdate deal, not a MacHeist deal. MacHeist is just a promotional partner.

I think some of you are being a bit paternalistic about your approach to these developers... suggesting they can't take care of themselves. Especially with this promo, they presumably calculated that the increased exposure of their applications is worth whatever bottom line cost comes out to.

Advertising/promotion isn't free. The developers chose to go with a discount/sale model rather than spend $20,000 on advertising in Macworld magazine.

(note, I have no knowledge of the specific deals made for this promo; and I don't know anything about the charity accusations above)

arn

AmbitiousLemon
Jul 9, 2007, 11:38 AM
But I don't generally live my life feeling bad for companies that make bad business decisions and refusing to give business to companies that make good ones.

And thats why some people (most) buy music from the major labels, and others have stopped supporting them and started supporting the artists.

The difference here is that with music the music labels are also screwing the consumer. Its easier to stand by your morals when you are the one being hurt, when its just some other guy its pretty easy to just let the exploitation continue.

eenu
Jul 9, 2007, 11:40 AM
To repeat a sentiment that a few others have expressed, I'm having some trouble understanding why I should feel bad for the developers who have signed on for this. Perhaps they've made a bad business decision. Perhaps (and only perhaps), they could make more money if they didn't put their software into these bundles. But I don't generally live my life feeling bad for companies that make bad business decisions and refusing to give business to companies that make good ones.

For me, it comes down to whether the developers had complete information about the deal and were not misled or lied to. Is there any evidence of deception? If not, I don't see anything unethical here.

I Quote:

"What’s in dispute is whether the money is being distributed equitably. Just because someone is satisfied with a bad deal doesn’t mean it isn’t a bad deal."

The "Indie Developers" are normally no more than a one man band. They are men and women that spends years of their lives making the great software you love so much. All these great apps on mac are made by people like this very few are from companies. Yes they maybe did make a bad decision but it should be up to you to do the right thing and but from them direct. Give them the proper price for their wares. Typically most of the bundle will be useless for most users so don't be greedy and spend an extra $10 and know you have paid well for your software and that the peep that made it is getting paid fairly for their time and expertise

Antares
Jul 9, 2007, 11:45 AM
The devs would be better off if you pirated the software instead.

Why? Even at that small percent, $5000 is a lot better than the $0 they would get if the software was pirated. And I echo many other people. The Dev's aren't forced into this. If they don't like this deal, they don't have to be a part of it.

eenu
Jul 9, 2007, 11:46 AM
Perhaps I shouldn't weigh in since I'm seen as part of the "man" in this scenario... but MacRumors participated in the first macheist promo as a promotional effort to provide MacRumors with additional exposure. This is just a continuation of that, and also a good deal on some Mac software.

This is a MacUpdate deal, not a MacHeist deal. MacHeist is just a promotional partner.

I think some of you are being a bit paternalistic about your approach to these developers... suggesting they can't take care of themselves. Especially with this promo, they presumably calculated that the increased exposure of their applications is worth whatever bottom line cost comes out to.

Advertising/promotion isn't free. The developers chose to go with a discount/sale model rather than spend $20,000 on advertising in Macworld magazine.

(note, I have no knowledge of the specific deals made for this promo; and I don't know anything about the charity accusations above)

arn

Arn with the greatest of respect i think the biggest question for people here is are you making revenue from it? ie have you been paid to advertise it?

I apologise for asking that question but really for me here as a MR user that is the most important thing.

If you are in business with MU and MH then i for one will not be financially contributing again and there are a couple other demis at the moment that feel the same and i am sure those numbers will grow as the day goes on and more people read the site.

Flowbee
Jul 9, 2007, 11:48 AM
The devs would be better off if you pirated the software instead.

I just don't understand the outrage.

Were the developers forced into this deal?

Are the developers so ignorant or stupid that they don't understand what they signed up for?

Who's stopping the developers from offering their own discounted bundles directly and keeping all of the profits?

kildjean
Jul 9, 2007, 11:48 AM
Last time the developers made 1.1% while MacHeist made 90% profit. Thats roughly $5000 for each developer and $500,000 for MacHeist. This time the deal is nearly the same.

The devs would be better off if you pirated the software instead.


yup that is why i do them the favor... ;) eventually i buy the apps from them...

eenu
Jul 9, 2007, 11:48 AM
Why? Even at that small percent, $5000 is a lot better than the $0 they would get if the software was pirated. And I echo many other people. The Dev's aren't forced into this. If they don't like this deal, they don't have to be a part of it.

No because of the thousands of support requests they will get from users than have basically paid peanuts for there wares..... pirated copies would go unsupported in the whole

pgwalsh
Jul 9, 2007, 11:48 AM
And thats why some people (most) buy music from the major labels, and others have stopped supporting them and started supporting the artists.

The difference here is that with music the music labels are also screwing the consumer. Its easier to stand by your morals when you are the one being hurt, when its just some other guy its pretty easy to just let the exploitation continue.You're not comparing Apples to Apples. These are ISV's Independent Software Developers. They're not run by some major corporation unable to control where and how their software is sold or distributed.

I Quote:

"What’s in dispute is whether the money is being distributed equitably. Just because someone is satisfied with a bad deal doesn’t mean it isn’t a bad deal."

The "Indie Developers" are normally no more than a one man band. They are men and women that spends years of their lives making the great software you love so much. All these great apps on mac are made by people like this very few are from companies. Yes they maybe did make a bad decision but it should be up to you to do the right thing and but from them direct. Give them the proper price for their wares. Typically most of the bundle will be useless for most users so don't be greedy and spend an extra $10 and know you have paid well for your software and that the peep that made it is getting paid fairly for their time and expertiseWell if those 10 companies feel so wronged that they signed up for this deal, then maybe they should release a press statement. It's great to see that you've taken on the role of spokes person/advocacy for ISV's. Fantastic! :rolleyes:

AmbitiousLemon
Jul 9, 2007, 11:50 AM
Why? Even at that small percent, $5000 is a lot better than the $0 they would get if the software was pirated.

Because they are paid a flat fee, not a percentage. No one would sign up to get 1% knowing the promoter gets 90%. Thats why Ryu keeps all the numbers secret and prevents the developers from discussing or disclosing the information.

If you buy the package the dev has to provide support and does not get paid anything for it (he gets the $5k regardless of whether you buy the package or not). If you pirate the software he gets the same exposure but doesn't have to provide support and you don't support the MacHeist profiteers.

eenu
Jul 9, 2007, 11:50 AM
You're not comparing Apples to Apples. These are ISV's Independent Software Developers. They're not run by some major corporation unable to control where and how their software is sold or distributed.

Well if those 10 companies feel so wronged that they signed up for this deal, then maybe they should release a press statement. It's great to see that you've taken on the role of spokes person/advocacy for ISV's. Fantastic! :rolleyes:

There are already links in this thread

And not all 10 felt wronged the companies run by the mac heist members took $15,000 each whilst the loan indie devs took 5.... i will say it again, what’s in dispute is whether the money is being distributed equitably. Just because someone is satisfied with a bad deal doesn’t mean it isn’t a bad deal.

NOTE: Figures based on Grubers estimates in linked report

SeoxyS
Jul 9, 2007, 11:50 AM
I'm a dev participating in this bundle.

I'm a pretty tired to read people feeling sorry for me because I'm screwing myself with this promo.

I've made a marketing decision. Be it good or bad, it's my decision. I know what I'm doing.

Please stop fighting my battles.


------

And to those who think like Gruber and Muller, in numbers. Those numbers might be true, but then again, they might not.

It's not important. What's important is the exposure we get from promos like this. Thanks to this, I'm reaching tens of thousands of potential customers. If the buyers like my product (which I hope they will) they'll talk about it to their friends, who will turn into a full sale for me. There might be people that didn't buy the bundle. Also, this will mean more reviews for me, more refferal. More exposure.

Basically, it's advertising, but I don't have to pay for it!

pgwalsh
Jul 9, 2007, 11:51 AM
If they're getting that many support requests for Mac software then they shouldn't be Mac Software developers. :cool:

iSee
Jul 9, 2007, 11:53 AM
Perhaps I shouldn't weigh in since I'm seen as part of the "man" in this scenario... but MacRumors participated in the first macheist promo as a promotional effort to provide MacRumors with additional exposure. This is just a continuation of that, and also a good deal on some Mac software.

This is a MacUpdate deal, not a MacHeist deal. MacHeist is just a promotional partner.

I think some of you are being a bit paternalistic about your approach to these developers... suggesting they can't take care of themselves. Especially with this promo, they presumably calculated that the increased exposure of their applications is worth whatever bottom line cost comes out to.

Advertising/promotion isn't free. The developers chose to go with a discount/sale model rather than spend $20,000 on advertising in Macworld magazine.

(note, I have no knowledge of the specific deals made for this promo; and I don't know anything about the charity accusations above)

arn
What bothers me is that this is really an ad being passed off as a page one news story. This kind of cross-promotional deal really hurts MR's credibility. When we see a story on MR, we've got to ask ourselves: It this here because MR editors think it's newsworthy, or is it here because MR stands to make a buck off it (directly or indirectly).

If MR wants to mix ads and editorial content, that's fine, but don't expect that there won't be longer term repercussions. This is especially true when dealing with people with dirty reputations--that dirt can get on you.

(However, I do NOT see the Mac developers that are participating in this or the previous bundle as being taken advantage of.)

SeoxyS
Jul 9, 2007, 11:57 AM
There are already links in this thread from an indie dev who took part last time

What, you've got one link? You're aware that Gus didn't even participate?

You want more?

http://wilshipley.com/blog/2006/12/marketing-irony.html

http://www.oreillynet.com/mac/blog/2006/12/taking_the_heist.html

also check this out: http://theocacao.com/document.page/378 since you like links

Jimmdean
Jul 9, 2007, 11:58 AM
What bothers me is that this is really an ad being passed off as a page one news story. This kind of cross-promotional deal really hurts MR's credibility. When we see a story on MR, we've got to ask ourselves: It this here because MR editors think it's newsworthy, or is it here because MR stands to make a buck off it (directly or indirectly).

If MR wants to mix ads and editorial content, that's fine, but don't expect that there won't be longer term repercussions. This is especially true when dealing with people with dirty reputations--that dirt can get on you.

(However, I do NOT see the Mac developers that are participating in this or the previous bundle as being taken advantage of.)

How is this not news? Just look at what it's stirred up already on Day 1...

Manic Mouse
Jul 9, 2007, 12:00 PM
So what're the chances of this reaching the full sales target? I'd definitely be interested if I can get all the apps...

yagran
Jul 9, 2007, 12:00 PM
Arn with the greatest of respect i think the biggest question for people here is are you making revenue from it? ie have you been paid to advertise it?

I apologise for asking that question but really for me here as a MR user that is the most important thing.

If you are in business with MU and MH then i for one will not be financially contributing again and there are a couple other demis at the moment that feel the same and i am sure those numbers will grow as the day goes on and more people read the site.

Its not your place to ask how much Arn is making from this publically, thats a question for PM if you really have to ask it at all. Im sad you feel that way but you sound linke a little girl, ask the actually developers involved if they are unhappy with the deal! of course they are happy, otherwise they wouldnt have done it!!! please just be mature, take a step back and think.

eenu
Jul 9, 2007, 12:00 PM
What, you've got one link? You're aware that Gus didn't even participate?

You want more?

http://wilshipley.com/blog/2006/12/marketing-irony.html

http://www.oreillynet.com/mac/blog/2006/12/taking_the_heist.html

also check this out: http://theocacao.com/document.page/378 since you like links

All lame links one of which was written by someone at delicious software which were paid more than the small devs....3x more.

Its not your place to ask how much Arn is making from this publically, thats a question for PM if you really have to ask it at all. Im sad you feel that way but you sound linke a little girl, ask the actually developers involved if they are unhappy with the deal! of course they are happy, otherwise they wouldnt have done it!!! please just be mature, take a step back and think.

I would but arn never replies to his mail. And i wasn't asking him how much i was asking if he was making any. I just want to know if this is basically paid advertising as a news item on MR and if so then my financial contributions to this site will cease along with some other people.

I assume some will be happy, and good for them, but again a bad deal is still a bad deal..... the thing that gets me more is the people running the bundle and how much they take. More money should be given to the devs and more to charity.

Not only that devs should all be given the same deal. Not some paid $15,000 and some $5,000 and then told to not talk to each other so they dont find out.

Now deals like this with the partners they have should be well aware of the number of sales they get and as such should have increased the amount the devs get.... or more sensibly given a percentage. But the deal is only a tiny bit better than last time and thus is still ripping people off whether they think they are getting a good deal out of it or not.

At SeoxyS, your app is $14.95. I like your app and was going to buy it today at that price. Your telling me you would rather i went via a bundle where you stand to make $0.3?

NOTE: Estimated figures by Gruber

yagran
Jul 9, 2007, 12:11 PM
Not only that devs should all be given the same deal. Not some paid $15,000 and some $5,000.

NOTE: Estimated figures by Gruber

surely thats based on how much the app contributes to the bundle..?

so if 40% were most intersted in buying the bundle because off App X, and 20% were most intreseted in App Y, then surely App Y deserves roughly 2x more of a cut?

lets not argue :( much love

eenu
Jul 9, 2007, 12:27 PM
surely thats based on how much the app contributes to the bundle..?

so if 40% were most intersted in buying the bundle because off App X, and 20% were most intreseted in App Y, then surely App Y deserves roughly 2x more of a cut?

lets not argue :( much love

See i could agree to that reasoning but some of the apps written by the heist members taking 15k were smaller than some of the indie apps taking 5k.... not to mention the 'don't talk to anyone else about what your getting'.

I'm not arguing i just believe in paying people what they deserve. if the dev above is happy with his ~$5000 then great (i say approx as he got a bit more than that). But as i said. I can buy his app now for $14.95 now, which i want to or pay $0.3 max in the heist bundle. so his advertising is costing him $14.65 per copy sold. That is not smart promotion even if he sees it as free promotion.... if of course he has an upgrade due soon and thus will force people to upgrade at full price then its smarter promotion. As it stands its a third party making a massive amount of money on him with little in return.

Anyways each to their own...

NB: The figures are rough examples as only data from the last heist exists taken from estimates by Gruber

isgoed
Jul 9, 2007, 12:42 PM
It seems there is a whole lot of commotion about how the profits are shared. I hope that the developers will get their fair price.

I actually bought this for GraphicConverter and Fetch. I use these programms regularly but found the price a bit steep. I once emailed to the Fetch developer stating that I was willing to pay $15 for the software. But now I can still show my support and get an opportunity to support other indy developers as well. Also with the current Euro/Dollar Exchange Rate this is a good deal for Europeans.

moosecat
Jul 9, 2007, 12:43 PM
Its not your place to ask how much Arn is making from this publically, thats a question for PM if you really have to ask it at all. Im sad you feel that way but you sound linke a little girl, ask the actually developers involved if they are unhappy with the deal! of course they are happy, otherwise they wouldnt have done it!!! please just be mature, take a step back and think.
If MacRumors wants to be taken at all seriously as a source for journalism, then it's not only a legitimate question, it is a question that must be answered. No reputable news source would publish an "article" in which it had a direct financial interest without disclosing the interest.

I have no idea whether Arn has an interest or not. But if he (or anyone else associated with MacRumors) does, then it absolutely should be clearly stated along with the article.

SeoxyS
Jul 9, 2007, 12:45 PM
At SeoxyS, your app is $14.95. I like your app and was going to buy it today at that price. Your telling me you would rather i went via a bundle where you stand to make $0.3?

Obviously no one would prefer that, but that's besides the point.

What I'm saying is that this for me this promo is worth it for all the exposure it creates.

I bet you've never heard of my app before today's bundle. Without this bundle, you would never have heard of it. Now you might buy it: it was worth it. Multiply someone like this by a few thousands, and that's where the real cash comes in.

eenu
Jul 9, 2007, 01:00 PM
I bet you've never heard of my app before today's bundle. Without this bundle, you would never have heard of it. Now you might buy it: it was worth it. Multiply someone like this by a few thousands, and that's where the real cash comes in.

I actually had heard of it but i get your point about exposure except you need ~50 sales on bundles for the equiv of every sale you make normally. You potentially could be looking at 20,000 new customers which equates to only 400 sales at full price. I just hope you don't get 1,000+ of those emailing for tech support etc

Anyway good luck to you. I will be running a similar promotion at some point in the future except i will only be taking operating costs out of the pot then splitting the money between all devs equally. I also provide reviews for software and allow devs to offer special time limited offers such as 50% off. IF your interested SeoxyS please PM me, i genuinely like your app.

@moosecat.... i couldn't have put it better myself. Thank you for saying what i was trying to say.

Donnacha
Jul 9, 2007, 01:13 PM
Look, I WANT Macrumors to report on stuff like this, it IS news and I subscribe to the feed because I don't want to miss out on good offers.

I'm sick of the ************ math people are using to justify their crusade against this voluntary marketing model. I can tell you that, coming from a Windows background, I very, very rarely buy software but I went ahead and bought the 1st MacHeist bundle before I even had a Mac - I knew I'd be getting one but was in a holding pattern, waiting for Leopard but finally getting an SR MBP a couple of weeks ago.

I absolutely WOULD NOT have bought any of the software in the MacHeist bundle and, most likely, would never have bothered to try them as demos. Now, having had a chance to use them, I would say that I am probably going to be a paying TextMate and DevonThink user for life and my father, a major book collector, was so impressed by Delicious Library that he will be buying his own MBP and a full-priced copy of it - that, surely, is a pretty spectacular marketing success!

The other included software at least got their chance to strut their stuff to me... who knows, I might get into the Pangea game and buy more. I might discover a need for Disco when I get more into my Mac - I like the idea of keeping a record of what I've burned.

Again, I am not a habitual software buyer but the MacHeist bundle introduced me to the value of well-written Mac software. That marks a sea-change in my way of looking at software at precisely the right time i.e. when I'm switching to Mac.

One observation I would make is that, if these bundles are parasitic, Mac developers should organize there own versions and share the profits equally.

Another thought: if the number of Mac users continues to explode with the introduction of Leopard, all Mac developers should take that wider base of potential customers as an opportunity to price their products more competitively, hopefully persuading the new influx of switchers to leave their warez days behind them on the PC.

Bear in mind that a price that seems small to American eyes might be more of a consideration to those of us in the rest of the world. Right now, thank's to the insane amounts of money you're haemorrhaging in Iraq, the dollar is in the gutter and US prices are great value but I fear that the election of a competent administration next year will put prices out of reach again. Please keep voting Republican.

displaced
Jul 9, 2007, 01:13 PM
about the iSight activation on the MacHeist site...

Said there was an error for my MacBook. Maybe I have too much porn... :rolleyes: (is there ever such a thing?)

This isn't a security exploit. No video from your camera is being sent across the network. You can verify this by checking activity lights on your cable modem (or other device) whilst viewing the video.

It's simply an instance of the Safari QuickTime plugin, set to display your iSight on your own screen. Completely and utterly harmless, and slightly entertaining in the context that the page is trying to establish (a hyper-secret login thing. Quite nicely done).

So, whatever the merits or otherwise of MacHeist, they're not elite hax0rz who are watching you in your birthday suit.

:)

Eraserhead
Jul 9, 2007, 01:14 PM
I have to admit I'm being screwed too. I have been convinced by the FSF (http://www.fsf.org/) to release my software (http://www.erasersoft.com/main2/News/News.html) for free. To help solve this problem please transfer lots of money into my bank account, please.
[/sarcasm]

That is the impression some people seem to have of MacHeist, which I can't comment on as I'm not taking part. But I do enable people to download software from my website for free, which actually costs me a small amount of money to allow people to do.

But there are four ways in which releasing my software for free benefits me:

1. I find out if I really enjoy making software, so I don't end up doing it professionally and find that I hate it.

2. I get something on my CV, so that people can see how good the software I actually develop actually is, they can also see how the software develops over time and see how productive I am.

3. I'm forced to code the application well, I can't require the user to edit the file in a text editor to change something, even if that would make things easy for me, it also throws up certain features which I should have added from the beginning as converting the users files to work with them is sometimes a right pain.

4. By collaborating with other people I can show that I can work in a team environment, which is how development occurs in "the real world".

The user benefits too in the sense that they get to use some (hopefully great) software for free, and that's a good thing too, but I'm not getting screwed here, and neither is the user.

Now with regards to support, my application is released under the GPL, so I don't have to offer support.

However I'd have thought that these developers taking part know how many customers they have and they know roughly how many people will buy the package so they should be in a fairly good position to know how much extra support they'll have to do and they have to work that out, they can communicate about this they aren't forced to take part, and if they think the terms are unfair developers could set up their own package with better terms.

With regards to piracy, software pirates ask for support too see:
this article (http://www.ambrosiasw.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=34059) about that, and that if you encourage piracy now, people will pirate software at other times and think that it's acceptable, which it isn't.

Finally with regards to some application developers getting more money, well that's life, that's the world we live in, and the difference is far less than in most other fields.

Donnacha
Jul 9, 2007, 01:25 PM
... I will be running a similar promotion at some point in the future ...
Ah, that explains a lot :D
...except i will only be taking operating costs out of the pot then splitting the money between all devs equally. I also provide reviews for software and allow devs to offer special time limited offers such as 50% off. IF your interested SeoxyS please PM me, i genuinely like your app.
If you do get a bundle together, I think Panic's Unison would be a perfect flagship product, mainly because it is not, itself, though nicely designed, a product that most people need but it would impress and would lead to a high percentage of spin-off sales for their most popular and, arguably, more necessary product, Transmit, especially if they also included a $10 discount for Transmit. Panic also have a relatively large range of other products, so, lots of upside for them.

Flowbee
Jul 9, 2007, 01:25 PM
As i just posted above i will be doing this.

During the original MacHeist, I remember lots of people saying that that were going to launch their own "fair" shareware bundle promotion. Where are they now...?

Keep us posted.

Eraserhead
Jul 9, 2007, 01:25 PM
But as i said. I can buy his app now for $14.95 now, which i want to or pay $0.3 max in the heist bundle. so his advertising is costing him $14.65 per copy sold.

This argument is as faulty as the RIAA's is about music piracy and forgets that most of these sales wouldn't happen anyway.

eenu
Jul 9, 2007, 01:36 PM
I think Panic's Unison would be a perfect flagship product, mainly because it is not, itself, though nicely designed, a product that most people need but it would impress and would lead to a high percentage of spin-off sales for their most popular and, arguably, more necessary product, Transmit, especially if they also included a $10 discount for Transmit. Panic also have a relatively large range of other products, so, lots of upside for them.

Have contacted panic awaiting response from the guys.....

During the original MacHeist, I remember lots of people saying that that were going to launch their own "fair" shareware bundle promotion. Where are they now...?

Keep us posted.

Mine is already in the works workload from normal life is increasing but i hope to get it going soon.

eenu
Jul 9, 2007, 02:20 PM
Not even one freebie?
So advertising and marketing make you greedy and selfish unless we follow your business model which is to do it for free, out of the kindness of your heart. but you just did.

Costs will come out of the profits and then the rest to the devs.... nothing to me. Walking away with $463,500 like the mac heist lot did IS greed. And by the time my thing goes into operation people will have long forgotten about this thread.

EDIT: Figures from Gruber estimates

rwdebes
Jul 9, 2007, 02:38 PM
"i prefer to pay the original price" so go ahead and pay dude.. probably a developer , if i try to sell you a ferrari for 10.000 of course you gonna say NO , i prefer to pay 200.000 because a lot of people put a lot of work on it.. please...

and if you think, just a litle you wil realize why this offer: LEOPARD IS COMING IS JUST A FEW MONTHS, and developer of those software know that and are just making money, because soon this versions will be useless for most of us.
thats the only reason why this big promotion, leopard.

you probably those who buy 10.000U$ on itunes because piracy sux , or pay 2000U$ for a creative suite...

eenu
Jul 9, 2007, 02:41 PM
and if you think, just a litle you wil realize why this offer: LEOPARD IS COMING IS JUST A FEW MONTHS, and developer of those software know that and are just making money, because soon this versions will be useless for most of us.
thats the only reason why this big promotion, leopard.

Most apps will not be affected by the move to leopard and those that will will not require a significant amount of work to warrant a version upgrade.... and yes a developer.

And to your edit, your right i don't pirate anything because i believe in paying people for good work..... if its not good i wont buy it if it is i will pay the price.

EDIT: sorry i just re read your really stupid analogy. No i'd buy your ferrari as your stupid enough to sell it for that and YOU get all the money, its the third party theif in this instance i dont like.

Barabas
Jul 9, 2007, 02:44 PM
So MacHeist made some money on a similar deal before? Well good for them! I am glad MacRumors reported about this. I've been interested in Cocktail before and now I finally got it. Plus I got a few more good apps. Thx.

tribulation
Jul 9, 2007, 03:57 PM
I don't have a problem with MR making some money here, heck they deserve it for keeping this site alive and well for so long. But I do think they should've said that they're sponsoring it or something along those lines.

Putting it inline with the normal news without at least a little disclaimer is a bit on the sleazy side. and I hope MU is giving more money to developers this time around. those are pretty big companies, with the tech tool pro guys and such so I'm sure they know what they're doing.

eenu
Jul 9, 2007, 04:11 PM
I don't have a problem with MR making some money here, heck they deserve it for keeping this site alive and well for so long.

Why don't you become a contributor and join demi-god land? :D..... go on you know you want too ;)

tribulation
Jul 9, 2007, 04:35 PM
Why? Even at that small percent, $5000 is a lot better than the $0 they would get if the software was pirated. And I echo many other people. The Dev's aren't forced into this. If they don't like this deal, they don't have to be a part of it.

I'm sure someone has already answered this but I will chime in anyways. No, $5,000 is not necessarily better than $0. You are forgetting a major part of software, which is support costs. Do you know how long it would take a 1 person mac shop to respond to 9,000 support emails a day? That's where the $5,000 vs $0 makes a huge difference. Making no money on a certain event is many times much better than making a bit of quick cash and then having to deal with thousands upon thousands of support requests.

pgwalsh
Jul 9, 2007, 04:43 PM
I'm sure someone has already answered this but I will chime in anyways. No, $5,000 is not necessarily better than $0. You are forgetting a major part of software, which is support costs. Do you know how long it would take a 1 person mac shop to respond to 9,000 support emails a day? That's where the $5,000 vs $0 makes a huge difference. Making no money on a certain event is many times much better than making a bit of quick cash and then having to deal with thousands upon thousands of support requests.
If you have that many support emails, you have a major problem with your software. However, if you had 100 support emails in a day, you're hurting nonetheless. If you're software isn't mature enough for a mass market campaign, then ya better not release for one.

eenu
Jul 9, 2007, 04:47 PM
If you have that many support emails, you have a major problem with your software. However, if you had 100 support emails in a day, you're hurting nonetheless. If you're software isn't mature enough for a mass market campaign, then ya better not release for one.

Whilst tribulation is exaggerating a bit on the number 17,000 new customers will generate more than 100. And this does not make you a bad developer. You may be a savvy user but you would be amazed at some of the dilbert emails you get when you are dealing with support emails. Support indy devs is not just technical but also sales, website general questions etc.

tribulation
Jul 9, 2007, 04:59 PM
Whilst tribulation is exaggerating a bit on the number 17,000 new customers will generate more than 100. And this does not make you a bad developer. You may be a savvy user but you would be amazed at some of the dilbert emails you get when you are dealing with support emails. Support indy devs is not just technical but also sales, website general questions etc.

Yes, I exaggerated a bit to make the point. But as you mentioned there are tons of other jobs that an indy dev must do. Out of just 1,000 new users I can guarantee no matter how good your software is, you will get tons of questions.

From the "The download link doesn't work" [answer: you are using IE 4 on the Mac] to the "The program doesn't open" [answer: you forgot to turn the computer on]. Those really are common types of questions that one must deal with every day. With a massive amount of new customers, there WILL be questions. probably lots of them.

so again no, $0 is not always better than $5,000. It all depends on the scale. if the devs are making hundreds of thousands of dollars instead of just $5,000 [for example's sake] on a normally priced $8 program. they have it made. Scale that down price wise, and up the number of users and the scale tips pretty quickly.

radixhound
Jul 9, 2007, 05:09 PM
Just so you know, the chances are good that all the apps will be unlocked. Based on the number sold so far and watching the number go up for a little while know, sales are clocking in around 1 sale / minute which would put total sales well over 10k. Once 4k is reached, sales will probably start happening faster because the message will spread and the deal will be sweeter.

I also want to thank eenu for hijacking this thread for his personal crusade. I wouldn't have followed this thread and registered for the forum if he wasn't so strongly opinionated and slightly outrageous.

I'm amazed that you have so much time to post on this forum, eenu!

FWIW - I think it's macrumors' duty to report deals like this one. If macrumors couldn't be trusted to report on all deals like this that come up, I would have to go looking elsewhere to get the scoop. That would be bad. I don't want to have to look in ten places for the scoop. It's even better that macrumors can do some promotion in the process. A business that knows how to promote itself can be trusted to stick around to play in the marketplace tomorrow.

(this is my first post) :)

eenu
Jul 9, 2007, 05:31 PM
JI also want to thank eenu for hijacking this thread for his personal crusade. I wouldn't have followed this thread and registered for the forum if he wasn't so strongly opinionated and slightly outrageous.

Yawn.... my personal crusade huh? Really and what have i achieved from this thread apart from discovering people want everything for nothing?

Obviously the mac community is expanding and getting full of a different kind of person compared to the old days, **** happens eh!

You obviously need to read the thread properly as well as there are a number of people that agree with me.

Welcome to MR!

cal6n
Jul 9, 2007, 05:51 PM
Thanks eenu,

Left to my own devices, I would probably have passed on this offer. However, your pompous, sanctimonious drivel persuaded me to take a closer look at the object of your derision. Macupdate have sold another bundle and it's all thanks to you!

ElderBrE
Jul 9, 2007, 05:53 PM
Yawn.... my personal crusade huh? Really and what have i achieved from this thread apart from discovering people want everything for nothing?

Obviously the mac community is expanding and getting full of a different kind of person compared to the old days, **** happens eh!

You obviously need to read the thread properly as well as there are a number of people that agree with me.

Welcome to MR!

You've achieved to annoy me, at least. I'm not actually saying I'm glad those devs got "tricked" on something completely legal, after all, they had the choice, no one put a gun to their head. What I'm saying though is, after reporting what Mac Heist did, which many of us probably did not know about, you kept on spamming the thread, something extremely annoying and worth of the tag "Trolling".

No but seriously, keep going, I'm sure that by now someone still doesn't know about what happened with the first bundle and it's your job to make sure they all know, and this thread is the perfect place to do it because it's going to get to everyone in the community, especially since it's already ruined.

Don't take me wrong, I'm not mad, just annoyed, I actually stopped reading the thread several hours ago and came back thinking this would be voer by now and some more interesting discussion about the apps and their worth would be going on, but that's wishing too much, some really have the time to ruin it for everyone else.

shadowfax
Jul 9, 2007, 06:03 PM
I am doing it for the love of development nothing more. I'm not greedy or selfish like the others. And no i wouldn't use mac rumors to promote it.It really sounds like you have ulterior motives.

You have a point, but greed is just one of the seven deadly sins. let's not forget vanity. Being holier than thou is just plain off-putting.

Honestly, I can't understand how to judge Phill and the others over this. I have no idea how much work they put into the whole MacHeist business, but I will make a couple of points...

People who take risks do deserve to be paid when their risks pay off. That's how venture capitalism works... and it works a lot better than other economic systems. Yes, people get carried away and they have to be stopped. This is not even remotely one of those cases.

When you give someone a flat fee for something, you take 100% of the risk. you could totally end up paying them $5k out of your own pocket if things go south. And that's what Phill & Co. did. It's unusual, but not remotely unfair. the fact that they seem to have hit it big is, well, a matter of perspective.

One thing to remember is, this is not destroying anyone. the developers got away with $5,000, and a number of them seem to have noted increased sales as well. They may be servicing user requests on licenses that they aren't making much off, but that is their investment in their software's future.

I really think that all of you guys should consider that these guys got paid $5-$15,000 to have their software promoted. They paid for the promotion with "practically given away" license sales. supporting those, which may take awhile for some time, still probably isn't going to cost (in terms of man hours, which is a pretty abstract concept for developers who are probably self-employed) near what it would cost to put an ad in MacWorld, get software professionally reviewed, etc.

But then, that's a gamble. That's the gamble that the developers take. And I really, really doubt, somehow, that if MacHeist were a total flop, and failed to "break even," that the developers would all be sending their money back to Phill.

Seriously, if you have a problem with this, I darn well better not find any "sweatshop t-shirts" in your closet, and you better be buying bio-diesel for your car that wasn't manufactured by a car company that's screwing it's lowest paid employees that actually do "most of the work." I mean, you couldn't possibly be dealing with Shell or ExxonMobil if you won't buy from Phill Ryu & Co.

eenu
Jul 9, 2007, 06:03 PM
@shadowfax.... my trainers have holes in, i am wearing a top i bought in 1999 and i walk everywhere :p

shadowfax
Jul 9, 2007, 06:23 PM
@shadowfax.... my trainers have holes in, i am wearing a top i bought in 1999 and i walk everywhere :p

And you missed my point. Unless you're living in a shack, don't own a computer (much less an Apple computer, have you seen their sadistic profit margins!?), don't connect to the internet, and don't own a TV with cable, and have never bought anything made in China, it's all the same. Oil barons and clothing sweatshops are just examples. But thanks for proving my point.

Also, I thought MacHeist was kinda dumb (just all around), and I didn't participate. I paid full price for CandyBar, ShapeShifter, and soon will pay for Super Duper! (which I discovered bundled on a hard drive I bought from MCETech). My company bought me Fetch and BBEdit. I love them all.

I am seriously considering this one, because I want TechTool Pro and don't think that the way I would use it remotely justifies spending $100. To top that off, I actually bought it for like $80 4 years ago, and was kind of disappointed (it was still very OS 9-ey at the time, when OS X was a little young). I've also lost the CD (bought it in a box), so I can't get the upgrade price.

eenu
Jul 9, 2007, 06:25 PM
And you missed my point. Unless you're living in a shack, don't own a computer (much less an Apple computer, have you seen their sadistic profit margins!?), don't connect to the internet, and don't own a TV with cable, and have never bought anything made in China, it's all the same. Oil barons and clothing sweatshops are just examples. But thanks for proving my point.


No i understood i was jesting with you. Though one reason i continued to by apple was after the published review on their treatment of the asian workforce.

radixhound
Jul 9, 2007, 06:31 PM
Yawn.... my personal crusade huh? Really and what have i achieved from this thread apart from discovering people want everything for nothing?

Oh I can't help myself.. Please forgive me if it strikes me as funny that you claim to have discovered that people want everything for nothing.

Let it be written in the history texts! The heretofore unknown fact has been uncovered by profound investigative questioning! So many mysteries of life have been solved! Now we know why the lottery corporations make billions of dollars! Now we understand the phenomenon of gambling! We comprehend how dollar stores work, and why millions of young men spend all day playing computer games and not working! INCREDIBLE! What will become of the world now that this hidden fact has come to light?!?!

(Please forgive me if the previous paragraph comes across as mocking. I intend no disrespect but I think that humor in the way you said what you said is just too awesome to pass up.)

Welcome to MR!

Thanks!

eenu
Jul 9, 2007, 06:45 PM
it's amazing how i get contacted my people related to the promotion then newbies join and flame me ;)

Guess that is utter coincidence......

displaced
Jul 9, 2007, 06:53 PM
I'm thinking something must be different this time around regarding the deal the developers get.

There was so much hubub over the MacHeist deal last time around. There's now a number of devs in the Mac community who've been involved in schemes such as this. Since the community seems rather tight-knit, I'd imagine those involved this time around may well have conversed with those in the previous similar deals and gained some knowledge about their experiences both in the immediate aftermath and the months after.

Now, although we're free to comment on the apparent pros and cons of this deal (for the devs), the devs themselves are free to (or not to) take part.

I'm also quite intrigued by the involvement of Micromat (the developers of TechTool Pro). Micromat are a very established company. I'd imagine they have quite a fine revenue source by way of Apple's distribution of TechTool Deluxe with every AppleCare purchase.

As for MacRumors' association with the scheme.... well, if it's good enough for Micromat and Lemke Software, then I think it's good enough for MR :)

Just to clarify, I wasn't a fan of the first batch of these schemes, especially after John Gruber's breakdown of the apparent figures on daringfireball.net. Something did seem a little off. However, assuming there's been absolutely full disclosure on the terms between the organisers of this scheme and the developers involved (and also, the supporting organisations such as MacRumors), then I do not see it as being my business to criticise. If the devs are entering into a scheme of their own volition, having all the details to hand, then it is entirely (quite literally) their business. Should it go terribly wrong and they get their fingers burnt, it's wholly their responsibility. But I trust that they've weighed up the possible outcomes, run the numbers and considered what effect this will have on their ongoing operations. Good luck to them.

macquariumguy
Jul 9, 2007, 07:01 PM
I don't have any problem with this marketing model, and I might well have bought into this bundle, but I am completely put off by it activating my camera.

It didn't take me long to realize it wasn't actually sending video, but by then I was peeved and there's no way I'm in a buying mood. What the hell were they thinking?

mmccaskill
Jul 9, 2007, 07:12 PM
I think the point eenu is making is that, while apparently legal business model, it is rather unethical for the organizer (of that last deal) to walk away with ~$400k while the developers got $5-15k. I think he feels it should've been based on percentage rather than upfront fee.

displaced
Jul 9, 2007, 07:15 PM
I think the point eenu is making is that, while apparently legal business model, it is rather unethical for the organizer (of that last deal) to walk away with ~$400k while the developers got $5-15k. I think he feels it should've been based on percentage rather than upfront fee.

Well, the scheme wouldn't exist at all if no developers took part. Assuming full disclosure between the organiser and the developers taking part, they'll be aware of the balance of the profits. If they're aware of this and still deem it to be a good thing for their businesses, then 'more power to their elbow' as my old nan used to say.

Like I've said, I can't help but think there's some sort of different arrangement this time around. Not to mention, we mustn't forget that this is not a MacHeist-run affair (although they are -- optionally -- involved), so it's not entirely fair to judge this scheme based on the performance of the MacHeist one.

radixhound
Jul 9, 2007, 07:17 PM
What the hell were they thinking?

My guess? "Our target market is developers, and they'd know what this is and think this is funny. If we scare away non-developers—that'd make developers laugh even harder. End result? We don't have to respond to requests from people outside our target market and we win over more of our target audience. It's a win-win deal!"

I suspect that you're not in their target market, macquariumguy.

Abstract
Jul 9, 2007, 07:28 PM
I have read the entire thread, and while the developers were given the terms of the deal, and this is the 2nd bundle (not the 1st), where devs now know what they're actually getting themselves into, I don't like how the terms are still for $5000-7000. Why not offer more to the developers out of good conscience, say $12,000, or a percentage of sales? MacUpdate and MacHeist can make their money, but out of good conscience and support for developers (who they supposedly care about :o ), they should have offered more in return.

I don't know.

macquariumguy
Jul 9, 2007, 07:37 PM
I suspect that you're not in their target market, macquariumguy.
I think that bundle would be useful to many besides developers. The only thing that might disqualify me (other than the dumb web cam trick) is that I already own Graphic Converter and Tech Tool and Transmit (in place of Fetch). Even so, it looked like an interesting deal, especially if the sales goals were met.

ElderBrE
Jul 9, 2007, 07:55 PM
@shadowfax.... my trainers have holes in, i am wearing a top i bought in 1999 and i walk everywhere :pit's amazing how i get contacted my people related to the promotion then newbies join and flame me ;)

Guess that is utter coincidence......


Yet at the same time it's funny that most of those you proclaim to be "pro-MacHeist" have been members of this forum and site for several years, some even years before you.

Abstract
Jul 9, 2007, 08:09 PM
He never claimed anyone in particular to be "pro-MacHeist" or a friend of MacHeist. You made that conclusion falsely.

I'm sure he only claimed that for people with the word "Newbie" under their screenname.....people like yourself.


Just wanted to clarify.

mixel
Jul 9, 2007, 08:15 PM
Eenu isn't being that bad, I think he's making a lot of good points which someone had to make.

I'm on the fence. I got the first macheist before reading anything about it and regretted it somewhat afterward after learning more about what may have happened.

The fact that people agree to something doesn't mean they're not being taken advantage of. There aren't trading standards bodies or "fair trade" schemes for shareware, throw devs money and coverage and they may agree.. But if the promoters really ARE taking that big a cut, especially if they're using charitable donations to offset and "but wont the developer lose out by selling it so cheap" type guilt.. That was pretty dubious. (though it can be looked at or explained in other lights easily)

Saying that, I have more faith in MU than Macheist for some reason.

I'm not saying people should necessarily feel guilty for buying, but I don't think they should be ignorant, and they should read up about it first.. "it's a good deal and thats all that matters." does a lot of damage.

Good luck to the developers, and i hope this works out for them anyway. :)

aquajet
Jul 9, 2007, 08:28 PM
There are several aspects of this scheme which rub me the wrong way, and are why I would never buy this "bundle". I don't plan to buy any of the programs individually either, even though I'm interested in some.

Abstract
Jul 9, 2007, 08:41 PM
The fact that people agree to something doesn't mean they're not being taken advantage of. There aren't trading standards bodies or "fair trade" schemes for shareware, throw devs money and coverage and they may agree.. But if the promoters really ARE taking that big a cut, especially if they're using charitable donations to offset and "but wont the developer lose out by selling it so cheap" type guilt.. That was pretty dubious. (though it can be looked at or explained in other lights easily)


Exactly.

However, I do understand that most people don't know lick about Fair Trade. Same sort of situation in coffee growing countries......it's "do or die" for growers, and despite the poor financial offer they get for their product, they don't have a lot of other avenues. They're convinced that any sale is better than no sale, which is actually quite true. Doesn't mean I don't have a problem with it, though.

Whether anyone agrees to the deal or not is not relevant to me. I know every developer involved agreed to the terms. However, it still isn't equitable.

Saying that, I have more faith in MU than Macheist for some reason.
So would I, however naive that may be.

eenu
Jul 9, 2007, 08:48 PM
I have had contact from Phil Ryu who wanted to clear a few things up. All the figures of $5000 etc Phil has assured me is inaccurate.

http://www.wired.com/software/coolapps/news/2006/12/72333

Where it should be noted that (From Phil and mine conversation):

"MacHeist developers were offered bonuses if sales exceeded expectations. They did, and the minimum payout was 10k"

These figures used in this thread have been taken from the article by Gruber:

http://daringfireball.net/2006/12/macheist_lousy_tshirt

http://daringfireball.net/2006/12/iniquities_of_the_selfish

Which was posted earlier in this thread. They were based on Mac Heist I... however Phil has said they are incorrect. They also no way reflect Mac Heist II in anyway. THIS promotion IS NOT Mac Heist II.

For the particualr promotion in question the bundle app terms were negotiated by MacUpdate and that was done on a revenue sharing model.

Thank you to Phil for contacting me and clearing a few things up!

These Last time the developers made 1.1% while MacHeist made 90% profit. Thats roughly $5000 for each developer and $500,000 for MacHeist. This time the deal is nearly the same.

The devs would be better off if you pirated the software instead.

I've been assured by the MacUpdate promoters that their deal is different than the MacHeist one.

I have also been repeatedly told that the above figures are a lie, but those who provided them to me disagree. I guess its just up to each of us who to believe - I honestly would like to believe the MacHeist guys, but I don't really understand why the developers involved would lie about what they got.

I've just spoken to a Dev who is taking part. Last time they were offered a fix fee of $5000, this year it was slightly higher ie 6-7k. I could not get a proper figure due to NDAs.

When approached they are not allowed to negotiate and its fix fee or no fee.

NOTE: This is only information that has been passed to me and maybe not factually correct

Because they are paid a flat fee, not a percentage. No one would sign up to get 1% knowing the promoter gets 90%. Thats why Ryu keeps all the numbers secret and prevents the developers from discussing or disclosing the information.

If you buy the package the dev has to provide support and does not get paid anything for it (he gets the $5k regardless of whether you buy the package or not). If you pirate the software he gets the same exposure but doesn't have to provide support and you don't support the MacHeist profiteers.

There are already links in this thread from an indie dev who took part last time

And not all 10 felt wronged the companies run by the mac heist members took $15,000 each whilst the loan indie devs took 5.... i will say it again, what’s in dispute is whether the money is being distributed equitably. Just because someone is satisfied with a bad deal doesn’t mean it isn’t a bad deal.

NOTE: Figures based on Grubers report

All lame links one of which was written by someone at delicious software which were paid more than the small devs....3x more.



I would but arn never replies to his mail. And i wasn't asking him how much i was asking if he was making any. I just want to know if this is basically paid advertising as a news item on MR and if so then my financial contributions to this site will cease along with some other people.

I assume some will be happy, and good for them, but again a bad deal is still a bad deal..... the thing that gets me more is the people running the bundle and how much they take. More money should be given to the devs and more to charity.

Not only that devs should all be given the same deal. Not some paid $15,000 and some $5,000 and then told to not talk to each other so they dont find out.

Now deals like this with the partners they have should be well aware of the number of sales they get and as such should have increased the amount the devs get.... or more sensibly given a percentage. But the deal is only a tiny bit better than last time and thus is still ripping people off whether they think they are getting a good deal out of it or not.

At SeoxyS, your app is $14.95. I like your app and was going to buy it today at that price. Your telling me you would rather i went via a bundle where you stand to make $0.3?

NOTE: Figures by Gruber

It really sounds like you have ulterior motives.

You have a point, but greed is just one of the seven deadly sins. let's not forget vanity. Being holier than thou is just plain off-putting.

Honestly, I can't understand how to judge Phill and the others over this. I have no idea how much work they put into the whole MacHeist business, but I will make a couple of points...

People who take risks do deserve to be paid when their risks pay off. That's how venture capitalism works... and it works a lot better than other economic systems. Yes, people get carried away and they have to be stopped. This is not even remotely one of those cases.

When you give someone a flat fee for something, you take 100% of the risk. you could totally end up paying them $5k out of your own pocket if things go south. And that's what Phill & Co. did. It's unusual, but not remotely unfair. the fact that they seem to have hit it big is, well, a matter of perspective.

One thing to remember is, this is not destroying anyone. the developers got away with $5,000, and a number of them seem to have noted increased sales as well. They may be servicing user requests on licenses that they aren't making much off, but that is their investment in their software's future.

I really think that all of you guys should consider that these guys got paid $5-$15,000 to have their software promoted. They paid for the promotion with "practically given away" license sales. supporting those, which may take awhile for some time, still probably isn't going to cost (in terms of man hours, which is a pretty abstract concept for developers who are probably self-employed) near what it would cost to put an ad in MacWorld, get software professionally reviewed, etc.

But then, that's a gamble. That's the gamble that the developers take. And I really, really doubt, somehow, that if MacHeist were a total flop, and failed to "break even," that the developers would all be sending their money back to Phill.

Seriously, if you have a problem with this, I darn well better not find any "sweatshop t-shirts" in your closet, and you better be buying bio-diesel for your car that wasn't manufactured by a car company that's screwing it's lowest paid employees that actually do "most of the work." I mean, you couldn't possibly be dealing with Shell or ExxonMobil if you won't buy from Phill Ryu & Co.

Donnacha
Jul 9, 2007, 09:26 PM
I suspect MacHeist involved a lot of work, over several months by several skilled practioners (of marketing, graphic design, programming and, most difficult of all, deal-making).

All those individuals could have avoided any risk and simply sold their time and creativity for good money elsewhere but, instead, they decided to take a gamble on something no-one else had ever tried. The gamble worked, they did well. No-one got ripped off and the slanderous claim, earlier in this thread, that the charities did not receive the money they were promised has been deleted and retracted. My understanding is that the amount of donation was, in fact, actually rounded upwards - you can find the entire breakdown in their forum.

Just to re-iterate my claim that deal-making is the trickiest part of putting a bundle together: Eenu, you say that your production of a fairer bundle is already underway and mention that you have emailed Panic, just waiting now for them to get back to you. Honestly, that just isn't going to cut it. At this stage, anyone putting together a bundle needs to hop on a bunch of planes and personally visit every single dev or company he wants to see in his bundle. You're asking them to take their most precious resource and gamble it on your ingenious marketing nous. They have to buy into you and the time, talent and energy you have already invested in your idea. They have to see that you have assembled a talented team around you, all of whom also believe in your unique ability to pull this off.

I don't know much about the guy behind MacHeist but I do know that he managed all of the above and, ultimately, delivered on the vision he was selling.

I understand that, sitting at home, it doesn't seem fair that someone walked away with so much money but the point is that he had what it takes. Eenu, no-one, absolutely no dev or company, is going to buy into one guy with no money and no team behind him, no matter how idealistic his aims may be. It just won't fly because you're not actually bringing anything to the table other than a willingness to write emails and bitch on forums. I was particularly impressed by the regret you expressed about these new people flooding into the Mac community - clearly, you have an innate understanding of how fewer potential customers is far better for the software industry.

One thing that could work, that could be driven by a determined individual, would be a campaign to persuade as many software producers as possible to do a once-off 50% discount on their licensing prices during the month of November - capturing all those new Leopard switchers, drawing attention to the higher quality and value of Mac software, and allowing people to stock up on gift licenses before Christmas (making it look like you spent the full price on the gift ;)). The wave of new users would also create a secondary wave of users buying in at full-price in the run-up to Christmas.

Who knows, perhaps developers will discover, as I speculated earlier in this thread, that, with a larger base of Mac users, lower prices generally are now not only viable but, also, more profitable. That would be one Hell of a break-through for you to work towards, Eenu.

shadowfax
Jul 9, 2007, 09:42 PM
Eenu isn't being that bad, I think he's making a lot of good points which someone had to make.

I'm on the fence. I got the first macheist before reading anything about it and regretted it somewhat afterward after learning more about what may have happened.

The fact that people agree to something doesn't mean they're not being taken advantage of. There aren't trading standards bodies or "fair trade" schemes for shareware, throw devs money and coverage and they may agree.. But if the promoters really ARE taking that big a cut, especially if they're using charitable donations to offset and "but wont the developer lose out by selling it so cheap" type guilt.. That was pretty dubious. (though it can be looked at or explained in other lights easily)I wasn't irritated by Eenu's points, which were of great interest to me and initially made me lose interest in the deal, which I was about to go for (for TT Pro). The John Gruber links (etc.) disturbed me. I got rather irritated, though, with that bit about being better and "not profiteering" and what not. I thought it was rather presumptuous.

Not only that, but seriously, the whole idea of "fair trade" in a market where developers are free to choose any of MANY, MANY methods of advertisement AND distribution of their software is rather ridiculous.

Fixed pay is very standard. This is very similar to, say, your salary. Whether the company you work for makes a $10 million profit or a huge loss, they are obliged to render you your salary. Now, granted, some form of profit-sharing is pretty common in corporate america, but it's not required. It seems pretty sweet when the risk-taker is losing (and you're still making $60k). It's kind of frustrating when the company rolls it in, but that's how it works. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Classic. Now, whether it's very nice to hog it all when you win your bet, that's another story. It's not very nice, but it's certainly fair. And even if MacHeist had done this, I wouldn't say that he'd run off with all the money for nothing. It's quite clear that MH gave these apps some real publicity, and that's what the main goal was.

This has absolutely nothing to do with things like Fair Trade coffee, where coffee growers are literally forced into squalor by large corporations that control the SINGLE way that most growers have to sell their beans (and hence, their livelihood). It's truly sad to me that American coffee consumption has turned such a unique, amazing cash crop into a canned commodity that costs next to nothing.

Anyway, that's a rant for someone with better qualifications than me.

I am glad to see that Phill is apparently not a completely greedy hog, though, and I feel better about this whole deal, enough that I am taking this MU deal.

iAlice
Jul 9, 2007, 09:58 PM
Hi Everyone,

I just bought this bundle through MacHeist, and I'm happy about my purchase.

Recently I had been debating between Amadeus Pro and Sound Studio to help me transfer my vinyl records and tapes to digital, so when I saw Amadeus Pro in this bundle, plus GarageSale and other enticing goodies, I knew it would be a good and fun move for me.

The bundle is selling so well on its first day out of the starting gate that I am optimistic about getting 2 probably 3 of the extra apps unlocked, too.

The purchasing page looked like I was buying it through the MacHeist part of MacUpdate. They obviously have an amicable business relationship with each other as well as with the developers who chose to participate in this savvy marketing strategy.

I have no qualms about participating in this offer whatsoever, on either ethical or value-for-my-money grounds.

Thanks, MacRumors, for alerting us to this offer, and also to MacHeist, MacUpdate, and the software developers for making it possible for us to test-drive (without annoying trial expiration countdowns) and own a variety of apps that I, for the most part, would never have tried.

Cheers!

Micrll
Jul 9, 2007, 10:18 PM
I would just like to say, that as someone who bought the last bundle I think that this is a wonderful marketing method. Mac Heist started a few weeks before I got my first mac. As a Computer Science Student deciding to get one it was a rather big decision. Through the Mac Heist give-aways, mac-app-aday (which went well for me, I got most) and the final bundle, I have discovered a wonderful world of shareware applications. When I was on windows I NEVER paid for any shareware applictions(though I never had much money) I always looked for freeware equivilants, which may or may not have done the job. Now I really see the quality in shareware apps. While it is possible that the developers gor ripped off the first time, some of them now have a customer (me) who will come back for more. Some of the programs I have found worthless and I never would have boughten in the first place, some I have found to be very useful and may buy later upgrades to. One of them, Text Mate I have fallen for. I never would have paid the price that it sold alone for, but now that I have used it like crazy and I know how much time it saves me I will be buying future upgrades to it, probebly for a long time.

Additionally, I would say that these promotions have really made me want to get started on the path to mac development. If I made a piece of software and Phill came by offering a large chunk of change, and with the opportunity to get a huge captive audience I think that I would probebly be worth it, yes a percentage would be better but hey its business, I don't think that its my place to judge others decisions.

arn
Jul 9, 2007, 10:27 PM
Hi all,

I just wanted to clarify our position. I am typically very conscious about stories/situations that are potentially conflicts of interest, and this story probably did cross over that line, though unintentionally. Such posts are rare, but we've experiemented with more commercial posts (see our disclaimer on parallels (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/06/26/parallels-3-0-upgrade-discount-10/)). I do believe that any sort of true pay-posts make it impossible to be impartial (see: Paid Reviews Backlash (http://normalkid.com/2007/03/08/paid-reviews-backlash-at-theappleblog/))

Our relationship with MacHeist started from Heist 1 (link1 (http://www.macrumors.com/2006/11/10/macheist-gather-secret-iphone-info/), link2 (http://www.macrumors.com/2006/12/15/macheist-software-bundle-ending-this-weekend/)), which was purely cross promotional and MacRumors received no direct financial reward for participating. When I posted today's story, I simply modeled it after the original posts from the previous heist... but our relationship has changed this time, in that we do now have a financial relationship with MacHeist.

So, I've added a small disclaimer to the story and will be more conscious about this in the future on the rare occasion it may become an issue again.

apologies for any confusion,
arn

ElderBrE
Jul 10, 2007, 01:15 AM
He never claimed anyone in particular to be "pro-MacHeist" or a friend of MacHeist. You made that conclusion falsely.

I'm sure he only claimed that for people with the word "Newbie" under their screenname.....people like yourself.


Just wanted to clarify.

He used the word "Heistists" that as you can see got edited. And I do realize he went off the newbie rank to make the claim that people joined the forum only to flame him. You see, the posts got edited, as you can see.

Just wanted to clarify that, he's no angel and I'm not making things up.

Doctor Q
Jul 10, 2007, 01:35 AM
the posts got edited, as you can see.We had to edit and remove a number of posts in this thread, but it was done based on forum rules. We didn't make judgements of whether claims in posts were true or false. It's a controversial topic and we are enforcing forum guidelines and not a particular point of view.

eenu
Jul 10, 2007, 04:08 AM
He used the word "Heistists" that as you can see got edited. And I do realize he went off the newbie rank to make the claim that people joined the forum only to flame him. You see, the posts got edited, as you can see.

Just wanted to clarify that, he's no angel and I'm not making things up.

Just to clarify the original comment was not in relation to you and the person you quoted posted that before it was edited.

rockosmodurnlif
Jul 10, 2007, 05:09 AM
Thanks eenu,

Left to my own devices, I would probably have passed on this offer. However, your pompous, sanctimonious drivel persuaded me to take a closer look at the object of your derision. Macupdate have sold another bundle and it's all thanks to you!

It's a marketing gimmick! Play both sides against the middle and profit! Wait ...

1.) Plan bundle.
2.) Partner with MacHeist & MacRumors
3.) Create controversy
4.) Profit!
... or something like that.

I'm just kidding, but it seems like a good deal and could only work out for everyone. If the devs get screwed, they get screwed but whatever they make of it is more than they had before they took part, the customers gain new programs at discounted prices and the middle men make their money (else why be a middle man?).

As I read the thread I didn't get the controversy, especially when one of the devs spoke up and said "thanks but no thanks" for others looking out for him, until I read this:


Our relationship with MacHeist started from Heist 1 (link1 (http://www.macrumors.com/2006/11/10/macheist-gather-secret-iphone-info/), link2 (http://www.macrumors.com/2006/12/15/macheist-software-bundle-ending-this-weekend/)), which was purely cross promotional and MacRumors received no direct financial reward for participating. When I posted today's story, I simply modeled it after the original posts from the previous heist... but our relationship has changed this time, in that we do now have a financial relationship with MacHeist.

So, I've added a small disclaimer to the story and will be more conscious about this in the future on the rare occasion it may become an issue again.

apologies for any confusion,
arn

So is this an advert disguised as story for our (and your) benefit?

I don't begrudge adverts, because they help pay the bills, unless they start to resemble something else.

Eraserhead
Jul 10, 2007, 06:34 AM
However, I do understand that most people don't know lick about Fair Trade. Same sort of situation in coffee growing countries......it's "do or die" for growers, and despite the poor financial offer they get for their product, they don't have a lot of other avenues. They're convinced that any sale is better than no sale, which is actually quite true.

Well it's different as the developers can continue to sell their product without the promotion if they think they will make more money, which doesn't apply to the coffee producers. Unless they can manage to sell Fairtrade Coffee which is difficult when the major companies, such as Nestle and Kenco refuse to sell Fairtrade coffee.

failsafe1
Jul 10, 2007, 08:08 AM
I was actually glad to see this small item posted on a site that I read several times a day. I bought the bundle after a few minutes of research on a couple of the apps I was not sure about. I then started reading the forum and remembered the controversy from last years bundle deals. I think there was one from Maczot in addition to the other Macheist. I certainly thought the fellows participating in this year's promotion would know what is what and them deciding to participate of their own free will cleared things up for me. From buying bundles like this I have become a regular customer for some of the apps. I have purchased full versions even after getting a bundled version for cheap or free so the promo works. I have never used tech support from these apps so whatever the developer makes off me at whatever price he is asking seems more than fair from my purchasing point of view. I enjoy the bundle deals because it opens me up to apps I would know nothing about. I would never purchase something like garage sale but when I loaded it from my purchase yesterday I saw some potential. I have wanted to buy Tech Tools but did not want to spend the $100. So like a lot of others I really wanted the high end apps cheap. I have a hard time thinking folks like the Tech Tool crowd would go into this deal if it were not worth their time. Same goes for the smaller software houses.

tribulation
Jul 10, 2007, 08:59 AM
Thank you MR!
I noticed this morning that you posted a note on the news story that MR is affiliated with the MU bundle thing. So disclosure has been made :)

I think that's what the main issue most of us had. that it made it in the news section like that. and I do hope you guys make some cash from it because as I said before you guys have been here for the longhaul and seriously deserve a return on your investment.

now on the RUMOR side of things..........
how about some inside information when the MU promo thing finishes up about how well it actually did and some of the terms for the devs this time around? or maybe even your cut? probably under NDA but being on a RUMOR site I can have a slight hope, can't I?? :p

seriously though hearing some of the behind the scenes details of a thing like this would be really interesting to hear. maybe you could do a followup story with the permission of MU. just any details you can provide on how it is actually working, how much the developers are making, even ballpark figures just for the sole use of fun comparison. I can hope. :o

anyway good to see you step up and post the disclaimer part on there. the people talking about MR loosing credibility should rethink that now, the demi-gods included. I think they realized their mistake and took action quickly to rectify the situation, unlike many --- I won't name names --- but I so want to ---- sites. so here's my thumbs up to you, hope it turns out well and you guys get some money from it.

eenu
Jul 10, 2007, 10:09 AM
anyway good to see you step up and post the disclaimer part on there. the people talking about MR loosing credibility should rethink that now, the demi-gods included. I think they realized their mistake and took action quickly to rectify the situation

I agree it is much better that they have now disclosed it, however, it does not detract from the fact that it firstly happened and it took just under 24hrs to put right despite an obvious outrage from many users.

For me MR still lost a lot of its credibility for not disclosing this fact as it did with the Parallels deal, whether it has now disclosed it or not. I will always have a reservation about the reliability on news from them now wondering if its reported on fairly due to the fact they have maybe been paid to report on it. Arn's Apple Blog link he quotes above is an excellent example of this.

Anyway fairplay to Arn for finally changing the original post and making an apology regarding it.

Jimmni
Jul 10, 2007, 10:24 AM
I love MacUpdate and use it daily. I'm very keen to support the site. I've never been able to justify $20 for a membership, but I want one. This bundle seems to offer enough value, coupled with the membership, to make it worth buying. I need two things clarified first, though:

1. If I buy the bundle through MacHeist does that cut into MacUpdate's profit? I'd far rather support MacUpdate to MacHeist. I have no problem with MacHeist, but MacUpdate is an invaluable tool for me.

2. What are the upgrade paths offered? I'll be buying Leopard the very day it comes out, and don't fancy paying to upgrade all these apps. 3 months of usage from them doesn't seem very good value at all.

Thanks to anyone who can provide definitive answers!

Donnacha
Jul 10, 2007, 11:01 AM
I love MacUpdate and use it daily. I'm very keen to support the site. I've never been able to justify $20 for a membership, but I want one. This bundle seems to offer enough value, coupled with the membership, to make it worth buying.
The wording on the MU sites isn't very clear and, in the discussion beneath the offer, no-one can work out if you actually get a free MU membership or, as seems more likely, an invite that gets activated if one of your friends buys the bundle too.

Perhaps some-one from MU could clarify this, both here and on their own site.

eenu
Jul 10, 2007, 11:03 AM
2. What are the upgrade paths offered? I'll be buying Leopard the very day it comes out, and don't fancy paying to upgrade all these apps. 3 months of usage from them doesn't seem very good value at all.

Thanks to anyone who can provide definitive answers!

I can't answer 1. and i doubt the organisers will disclose.... as for 2 that is the risk you take. All the software you buy now should function ok, even if you are moving to leopard. Those that don't may ask for an upgrade fee who knows its a risk you take.

However if i was a dev in this promotion i would only take part near the end of a version cycle thus charging full upgrade fee to those users that want it when the next version is out. I don't remember anyone doing that from Heist I (similar promotion) though (at least not for a month or two) i do remember a couple of apps were very near their end of version points. Memory hazy... but as i say its a gamble you take.

Chances are you wont like all the apps and if you have to upgrade the one or two you do then your still quids in!

arn
Jul 10, 2007, 11:13 AM
For me MR still lost a lot of its credibility for not disclosing this fact as it did with the Parallels deal, whether it has now disclosed it or not. I will always have a reservation about the reliability on news from them now wondering if its reported on fairly due to the fact they have maybe been paid to report on it.

I think your reaction to this is particularly strong due to your personal dislike of MacHeist.

As for editorial content and "trust" -- that's just what it comes down to. I don't actually think this story was particularly deceptive - in that, with most of the stories, I simply presented the facts. Bundle available with xyz without any particular glowing adjectives. The site's never been a big endorser of products so much as an aggregator, anyhow.... endorsements (or lack thereof) are generally left for the comment thread (such as this one).

Affiliate links have been used when appropriate, even in news stories. For good or bad that's widespread practice amongst most non-corporate sites. There is a line, of course, as I acknowledged above (example: parallels discount, and this story)

Bottom line is that despite all this, whether or not you find the content on this site relevant or interesting should be self evident.

arn

eenu
Jul 10, 2007, 11:38 AM
I think your reaction to this is particularly strong due to your personal dislike of MacHeist.

That maybe a small factor yes I won't disagree with that, however, the bigger issue for me is you are in business with someone that you posted a news article on. No one has an issue with that at all, the issue is you did not think to disclose it at the time of posting. You have corrected all that and i for one really appreciate it. And you are correct it does come down to trust, but that trust for me (and one or two others) has been compromised. You went a long way to rectifying that issue by correcting and apologising.

I don't know you from the next guy, i don't know that other things you have reported on weren't paid for. As you say it all comes down to trust. Your right, i am also not a fan of MH in terms of what I percieve to be the deal the devs get (the concept is however excellent). That is a personal opinion and one that is subject to change when i have seen MH2.

However, at this point in time this is the unfortunate place i find myself in after this event. As such, and i am sure you are aware i will no longer be financially contributing to MR. I don't put my money where i have doubts, i am sure you can understand that as a business man. I will still however contribute here from time to time because you rectified the issue that occurred regarding disclosure and i am sure for most people that is good enough for them.

And on a final note i will reiterate again from my chat with Phil that the bundle app terms were negotiated by MacUpdate and that was done on a revenue sharing model something which i whole heartedly support.

Donnacha
Jul 10, 2007, 12:10 PM
Dude ... move on.

Think of all you could have achieved over the last 48hrs if you'd put your time to productive use.

Jimmni
Jul 10, 2007, 03:19 PM
I personally found the news post useful, and MacRumors needs to make money, so the odd news post notifying of an offer or a product that makes MacRumors a little money really isn't a big deal for me, so long as the product isn't misrepresented. As arn said, he didn't specifically endorse it, he just posted about its existence. I do think that those who have donated/subscribed (I'm not sure how it works) should have the option to disable such posts, but accusing arn of selling out, or deceptive tactics is a bit extreme. The guy provides a great site for free. I don't begrudge him a few extra pennies. I think it'll be a long time before he posts a similar piece of news without declaring any affiliation, though.

I for one appreciated the heads up!

Maui
Jul 10, 2007, 04:36 PM
I made a list today of the outrages in the world, and what MR did here is officially listed at number 8,356,823. Once I have dealt with everything with a lower number than that, I'll start to care about this one.

shadowfax
Jul 10, 2007, 05:37 PM
Eenu,

You seem to be excruciatingly unforgiving of people. arn made a small mistake (forgetting to disclose his involvement in a story), corrected it after he realized the issue, and apologized.

People are human, and they make mistakes sometimes. It's the people that are willing to admit it and fix it that are the best. People who seem infallible are generally just good liars. Not that it matters. Whatever you may think, MacRumors is reliable, and will remain reliable and successful with or without your support (of any kind). So please feel free to not renew, because I just cancelled you out last night by renewing my own membership. :p

keirnna
Jul 10, 2007, 06:20 PM
Has anyone received the email from MacHeist yet? It has been almost 24 hours and I have nada from them.

decksnap
Jul 10, 2007, 07:00 PM
Hi all,

I just wanted to clarify our position.

apologies for any confusion,
arn

Thanks Arn... I felt a little dirty seeing the bundle on page 1 as well. The Mac world doesn't need the Phil Ryus of the world to promote it. Frankly, legal as it was, it was a cheap scam.

Macrumors has scale. Macrumors has exposure. Can't Macrumors themselves promote a bundle that fairly compensates devs on a percentage basis and still turn a tidy profit to make it worthwhile for MR?

I think this would be good for everybody.

Val-kyrie
Jul 10, 2007, 10:10 PM
Has anyone received the email from MacHeist yet? It has been almost 24 hours and I have nada from them.

I have not had a response back either, and it has been 20 hours.

PS--I bought the bundle because even if I cannot use the software, a friend of mine will find it useful as he is new to the Mac.

stepandy
Jul 11, 2007, 01:14 AM
According to my calculations, currently there are 40 bundles sold each hour. If the rate of sales persists at this level, there will be 7,700 bundles sold over the promo period.
It is a bit short of 9,999 required to unlock Tech Tool Pro.

I hope that this type of promos have a late surge.

Ja Di ksw
Jul 11, 2007, 01:52 AM
Ok, so I think that MR may have stepped a little over the line, but I think it was purely an accident with no malice, they apologized for it, and I don't think it was that bad to begin with. People make mistakes, this wasn't a big one, it was pointed out, they apologized. Why are some people trying to crucify arn over this, or act like suddenly MR is this horrible group out to manipulate you into making money for them?

eenu
Jul 11, 2007, 06:12 AM
but MacRumors participated in the first macheist promo as a promotional effort to provide MacRumors with additional exposure. This is just a continuation of that, and also a good deal on some Mac software.


Our relationship with MacHeist started from Heist 1 (link1 (http://www.macrumors.com/2006/11/10/macheist-gather-secret-iphone-info/), link2 (http://www.macrumors.com/2006/12/15/macheist-software-bundle-ending-this-weekend/)), which was purely cross promotional and MacRumors received no direct financial reward for participating. When I posted today's story, I simply modeled it after the original posts from the previous heist... but our relationship has changed this time, in that we do now have a financial relationship with MacHeist.

Sorry i don't call it a mistake. The first quote is from Arn after people had been asking him if he was profiting and clearly that post indicates no he is not. Then his second admits he is. For me Arn tried to get away without disclosing it until he realised what a stink it was causing and then tried to save is ass and disclose it and probably did so very reluctantly. The failure to disclose was a big enough deal personally but one which you can attribute to human error but added with his first statement contradicting the second and that is the issue for me. But hey its just a personal opinion and i am sure most people will not see it like i do. I am however entitled to my opinion and its just the way the cookie crumbles for me.

Anyway if its not an issue for anyone else thats great.

Regarding the bundle anyway.....Intaglio looks good but for me is the only decent app that i would want.... i own some of the others already. The question is, is this worth it given i really want pixalmator? i.e should i get this bundle for Intaglio or does pixalmator whip its butt (at least on paper)?

Or do they provide two separate functions making one independent from the other?

Eraserhead
Jul 11, 2007, 06:21 AM
I have not had a response back either, and it has been 20 hours.

Neither have I, I thought I hadn't submitted it correctly or something... It has been over 24 hours for me.

eenu
Jul 11, 2007, 06:27 AM
Neither have I, I thought I hadn't submitted it correctly or something... It has been over 24 hours for me.

I dunno if its right to compare this to Heist I but it took days to get the codes from that but they came

Eraserhead
Jul 11, 2007, 06:32 AM
I dunno if its right to compare this to Heist I but it took days to get the codes from that but they came

Well it probably is, because the MacUpdate ones came straight away.

eenu
Jul 11, 2007, 06:38 AM
Well it probably is, because the MacUpdate ones came straight away.

I don't know if this is correct but i have a feeling they send the applications to the devs who have to process them....obviously on such a promo this takes some time. However it is possible to do this automatically a la Macupdate so i have no idea.....

Give it 48-72hrs then contact them.

keirnna
Jul 11, 2007, 08:25 AM
I have not had a response back either, and it has been 20 hours.

PS--I bought the bundle because even if I cannot use the software, a friend of mine will find it useful as he is new to the Mac.

I just got my email. It was in my spam box.

Eraserhead
Jul 11, 2007, 08:37 AM
I just got my email. It was in my spam box.

Same for me.

arn
Jul 11, 2007, 09:23 AM
For me Arn tried to get away without disclosing it until he realised what a stink it was causing and then tried to save is ass and disclose it and probably did so very reluctantly.

eenu,

Things are not as sinister as you imply...

The reason I made my "official response" (link (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=3898108&postcount=141)) without any detailed explantion is that I didn't want to look like I was making excuses. In that, I understand the greater issue is one of perceived impropriety rather than necessarily any actual impropriety. Whether or not the story would have been posted without any finanicial incentive is irrelevant for the most part, since its impossible to separate after the fact.

The actual circumstances, however, are as follows ... MacRumors posted the original MacHeist stories as a cross promotion and had no finanicial stake or incentive. I think that's been clear. I was approached last week about participating in MacHeist II which I agreed to before any finanical offer was made. After the fact, I was offered some financial reward. This obviously complicated things down the line. Now, how can you believe me? You can't. Hence the official "no excuses" reponse before. However, I don't think it's arguable that the story was not of genuine interest for many. The reason I didn't disclose it initially? It didn't occur to me due to the sequence of events and that I was posting it without [initially] financial incentive. The reason I disclosed it later? You asked me outright if the site made any from MacHeist, and I realized that there could be issues of perceived impropriety. I think I've been pretty open about it in general.

eenu, I think you have to ask yourself is this. Let's say 6 months down the line, MacHeist III happens. I will certainly make sure to have no financial stake in it, but if I post a story about it anyway, would that bother you? If it would, then I have to reiterate that I think the bigger issue for you is that of MacHeist itself than the financial issues we've been talking about.

arn

eenu
Jul 11, 2007, 10:37 AM
eenu,

Things are not as sinister as you imply... [cut]....

Arn thank you for your frank response. As long as you disclose when posting any news events that have financial interest for the site then thats brilliant. It shows that you are striving to maintain an independent stance, even if paid advertising/news is never truly 'independent'.

As i have said before i will need to asses MH2 and MH3 when they occur, if they move to a revenue sharing model and your involved i have absolutely no issue whatsoever. At this point in time, because you are advertising the revenue sharing MacUpdate promo i have no issue on the thing that you are promoting the only issue now lies with the non disclosure which you have now explained in detail which i appreciate greatly.

But you are right if MH2 proceeds under similar terms to MH1 that is an issue for me, i'd like to say that this would not influence my opinions on MR (being a paid advertiser/partner) but i think it might do. If however it does operate under revenue sharing/percentage based sales you and Mac Heist would have my full support and there would be no issue for me.

And if the scenario is you have have no financial gain from it at all and you report on it Arn it does not bother me one bit.

But again, i guess this really isn't to relevant. No one else seems to care except myself and one or two others.... i just have principles and beliefs that i stick to whether that is good or bad for me its just the way i am.

JeffDM
Jul 12, 2007, 10:54 AM
I've said it elsewhere, I really don't appreciate this type of viral marketing. Mac Heist was the one I really didn't like, I don't want to put in work just to give someone the opportunity to advertise to me.

cube
Jul 12, 2007, 12:54 PM
10 bundles left to unlock Little Snitch.

Donnacha
Jul 12, 2007, 01:25 PM
Not going well; with 5 days to go, they should be hitting Intaglio by now - this promotion is dead in the water and all because they tried to get too fancy.

MU have now updated their page to make it clear that you DO NOT receive an MU membership (worth $20) unless you use a special invite to buy the bundle. Everyone who buys the bundle (through MU, not sure about buying through MacHeist) gets 2 of these special invites to send to their friends. Again, you cannot use these invites to retroactively give yourself a free MU membership, you must have received one yourself before buying.

Obviously, no-one wants to miss out, so, people are holding off until they can get their hands on an invite. Unfortunately, the invites are not spreading, probably because most buyers are not bothering to pass them on. Someone has set up a website to automate the sharing of invites but what seems to be happening is that people are joining the waiting list and receiving the precious invites but holding off on a purchase until more items are unlocked and, so, more invites aren't being created and added to the system. My guess is that most of the people getting invites will hold out until Tech Tools is unlocked (probably not going to happen) or will simply lose interest in the whole thing.

Clearly, the unnecessary complication of invites has crippled the entire promotion and, with only 5 days left to go, it is simply not going to hit the tipping point at which the majority of potential customers will take the plunge. Snitch will be unlocked but that's about as far as we'll get...

... unless the marketing geniuses at MU spontaneously get some clue, drop this ridiculous invites thing and make the free membership a standard part of the bundle. I can see what they were trying to do, makes sense if you look at it with your eyes half-closed, but they didn't consider how it would affect the overall promotion and forgot to give buyers any incentive to actually pass on their invites.

Anyone who writes marketing off as easy should study this promotion as an example of how easy it is to mess up. Sad to see so much effort wasted, this should have been a big boost for MU.

Donnacha
Jul 12, 2007, 01:37 PM
Interesting to note that MU are censoring critical posts within their own discussion thread, and quickly too - my post relating to this problem was deleted within less that a minute!

They must be fire-fighting quite a lot of dissent but, of course, we'll never know.

arn
Jul 12, 2007, 01:43 PM
Not going well; with 5 days to go, they should be hitting Intaglio by now - this promotion is dead in the water and all because they tried to get too fancy.


Of historical interest, the MacHeist sales spiked right after something was unlocked. So presumably there's a number of people who don't want to buy until something is unlocked. So, there may be a spike when Little Snitch gets unlocked.

arn

Donnacha
Jul 12, 2007, 02:29 PM
Yeah, it's interesting to watch.

My memory is that MacHeist had much more momentum and although, clearly, the unlocking of Snitch will dislodge a wave of sales, the question is: will it add enough momentum to hit 4000 within the next day or two? Because they'll have to do that to have a hope in Hell of eventually hitting 10,000.

My suspicion is that, even though many potential customers might be happy with the existing apps now that Snitch is included, many will hold off until they get an invite and that will kill the sense of momentum. They really have shot themselves in the foot but, as I say, could reverse that by simply adding the membership.

arn
Jul 12, 2007, 02:37 PM
Yeah, it's interesting to watch.

My memory is that MacHeist had much more momentum and although, clearly, the unlocking of Snitch will dislodge a wave of sales, the question is: will it add enough momentum to hit 4000 within the next day or two? Because they'll have to do that to have a hope in Hell of eventually hitting 10,000.


The other interesting thing is that MacHeist unlocked their last app before they actually hit the goal number... and that caused a very large spike in sales. I guess people thought they were getting a better deal now. The psychology of it and all.

Now, as I said, I don't know anything about how MacUpdate is going to handle things, but if they were paying attention to the macheist model, they might do the same.

arn

natallica
Jul 12, 2007, 02:52 PM
The other interesting thing is that MacHeist unlocked their last app before they actually hit the goal number... and that caused a very large spike in sales. I guess people thought they were getting a better deal now. The psychology of it and all.

Now, as I said, I don't know anything about how MacUpdate is going to handle things, but if they were paying attention to the macheist model, they might do the same.

arn

It would be VERY smart for them to unlock the next level today, but we'll have to see what happens.

Thank you for making me aware of this bundle and the software in it. I know you've taken a lot of crap for it!

-- N

:apple:

Donnacha
Jul 12, 2007, 03:00 PM
The other interesting thing is that MacHeist unlocked their last app before they actually hit the goal number... and that caused a very large spike in sales. I guess people thought they were getting a better deal now. The psychology of it and all.

Now, as I said, I don't know anything about how MacUpdate is going to handle things, but if they were paying attention to the macheist model, they might do the same.

arn
Good point; MacHeist were obviously aware of the need to keep the momentum going at all costs and must have calculated that they had no choice but to bring that unlock forward.

It doesn't seem as if MU are as good at detail although, to be fair, they did eventually respond to complaints that the wording of their offer was unclear and re-wrote it.

But, apart from that, I've seen no signs that they possess MacHeist's ability to turn on a dime (bringing forward that unlocking, for example) and, really, that's what they need here: the balls to shoot their still-born invites scheme in the head.

BTW, just for the record, I do actually have an invite myself, I'm just aware that there are a lot of people not buying because they don't.

cube
Jul 12, 2007, 03:11 PM
It doesn't seem as if MU are as good at detail although, to be fair, they did eventually respond to complaints that the wording of their offer was unclear and re-wrote it.


I agree, other bothersome points:
- People who bought the bundle who didn't get their macupdate free account activated (normal free, not $20 account for free)
- Still saying "get 7 applications" instead of 8 in their graphics now that LittleSnitch has been unlocked.
- Graphics that still reflect the 7-app total value, instead of the new 8-app one.

iAlice
Jul 12, 2007, 06:15 PM
Hi guys,

I just donated my 2 promo invites to whoever needs them at:
http://www.cedrik.fr/mupromo/
There are 18 invites available as I write this.

Personally, I'm having a great time participating in this promo, trying out the new apps, helping 2 other people with my invites, and watching for the next app to unlock.

My favorites so far are Amadeus Pro, GarageSale, Fetch, ProfCast, and Browseback (only offered through MacHeist). I'm excited about getting Intaglio in a couple of days (oh, yeah, baby, it's coming I'm sure), and I still feel we have a decent chance to get TechTool Pro, which for me would be icing on an already yummy cake.

Catching the Snitch within the last hour even tied in with my eagerness to read the last Harry Potter book in just 8 days! (Harry plays a game called Quidditch where he has to catch a small, fast ball called a snitch to win the game for his team.)

Seriously, I'm very glad to have bought into this promo, and I urge you to "go for it" if you are debating whether to jump in.

Cheers,
Alice

mark476p
Jul 12, 2007, 06:33 PM
The bundle sounds great, but I'm worried about fees related to a Leopard upgrade. I went to the official site of each application. I remember a few saying that there are free lifetime upgrades. Little Snitch, according to the forums, is free if it's a "minor" update.

fblack
Jul 12, 2007, 07:16 PM
I have had contact from Phil Ryu who wanted to clear a few things up. All the figures of $5000 etc Phil has assured me is inaccurate.

http://www.wired.com/software/coolapps/news/2006/12/72333

Where it should be noted that (From Phil and mine conversation):

"MacHeist developers were offered bonuses if sales exceeded expectations. They did, and the minimum payout was 10k"

These figures used in this thread have been taken from the article by Gruber:

http://daringfireball.net/2006/12/macheist_lousy_tshirt

http://daringfireball.net/2006/12/iniquities_of_the_selfish

Which was posted earlier in this thread. They were based on Mac Heist I... however Phil has said they are incorrect. They also no way reflect Mac Heist II in anyway. THIS promotion IS NOT Mac Heist II.

For the particualr promotion in question the bundle app terms were negotiated by MacUpdate and that was done on a revenue sharing model.

Thank you to Phil for contacting me and clearing a few things up!

These

Wow. I hope people read thru the entire thread like I did. Otherwise, their enthusiasm for this offer might have been significantly killed. I check MR regularly, along with the BBC and a few other feeds. I probably wouldn't have known of this offer if it hadn't been posted here.

Val-kyrie
Jul 12, 2007, 10:42 PM
I have not had a response back either, and it has been 20 hours.

PS--I bought the bundle because even if I cannot use the software, a friend of mine will find it useful as he is new to the Mac.

I received my bundle yesterday and thanks to iAlice found out about the invite manager for the bundle at http://www.cedrik.fr/mupromo/. I donated both of them, too.

The only problem is that I guess I lost my chance for a MU membership if they are not giving it to people without an invite--I bought the bundle before that was clarified. Perhaps, MU will change their minds on this.

Donnacha
Jul 12, 2007, 11:44 PM
It's ironic that the people, like you, who took a leap of faith and bought in early, are the ones getting screwed on this whole invites thing.

Unfortunately, even though their wording was misleading until they were forced to rewrite it, I don't think MU are going to bother helping the early adopters who lost out because they are systematically deleting posts to their discussion thread that mention it.

It's decent of you, and others, to go to the trouble of passing on your invites, despite losing out yourselves, but, frankly, this shouldn't be necessary. I mean, c'mon, how broken is a marketing idea that necessitates some random guy having to create a rushed independent website to make it work.

MacinDoc
Jul 13, 2007, 03:31 AM
FWIW, this site attempts to but is not successful in turning on the iSight camera on my MB. Is this a security feature working in my favor, or is there a problem with my MB?

eenu
Jul 13, 2007, 09:18 AM
Otherwise, their enthusiasm for this offer might have been significantly killed.

Well the lack of enthusiasm/unhappiness in this thread wasn't because of the MacUpdate promo.

Its not looking like they are doing to well anyway! All those of you who wanted Intaglio will probably get it but it will be very close

iAlice
Jul 13, 2007, 09:41 AM
Good morning, everybody!

I just checked the invites manager at:
http://www.cedrik.fr/mupromo/

and 5 people are presently waiting for someone's unused promo invites.

I gave mine yesterday; it was easy, painless, seemed very safe, and made me feel like I was helping my fellow MacUsers get an enhanced promo deal.

If you have not used your 2 invites from your promo purchase, please visit the Cedrik site and pass them on. This has helped 132 people already.

And it helps us boost the bundles-sold number down the road to unlocking Intaglio!

Thanks, Alice

Donnacha
Jul 13, 2007, 10:33 AM
Good morning, everybody!

I just checked the invites manager at:
http://www.cedrik.fr/mupromo/

and 5 people are presently waiting for someone's unused promo invites.

I gave mine yesterday; it was easy, painless, seemed very safe, and made me feel like I was helping my fellow MacUsers get an enhanced promo deal.

It's good that you got a sense of well-being by jumping through those unnecessary hoops. It's clear, however, that the vast majority of the 2,500 purchasers so far have not gone to the same trouble - there were hardly any sales overnight and the discussion on MUpromo.com is now flooded with people complaining. It would appear that, having discovered that they are not themselves to receive a membership, despite the original wording of the deal suggesting they would, people are not in the mood to faff around sharing their email address at 3rd-party websites.



If you have not used your 2 invites from your promo purchase, please visit the Cedrik site and pass them on. This has helped 132 people already.
Not really - 132 have received invites but, because the invites system has bottle-necked the promo as a whole and it looks as if further unlocks will not be reached, those invites are remaining unused and not generating more invites. Also, because it's taken more than 24hrs to generate those few invites (132? They really need 9,999!), many of the receivers had already received invites by begging on forums and the MU discussion thread. So, Cedric's excellent efforts are mostly leading to lots of unused invites sitting in peoples' inboxes - certainly, the invites are not going forth and propagating as planned.


And it helps us boost the bundles-sold number down the road to unlocking Intaglio!

Don't hold your breath.

Honestly, at this stage, if anyone has any contact with the MU guys (because they haven't said a word on their own site for over 24hrs), try to talk some sense to them.

shadowfax
Jul 13, 2007, 10:57 AM
I Think that MUeller responded to one of my comments last night, on the big thread. He was being very disappointed. I'm kind of irritated. Little snitch will come in handy, for sure, and the SRS iWow thing is pretty cool. Cocktail replaces TinkerTool for me, which I had never paid for (and only ever used to adjust the dock position). But I already owned fetch, and the other apps are not very much use to me. I would certainly not have bought these apps for $50. I will use Intaglio, I think, and that will salve the irritation, but I really had my hopes set on TTPro. And it's not happening. I don't think I will be a MacUpdate customer again, given their apparent pride in this matter.

Donnacha
Jul 13, 2007, 11:06 AM
LOL, I just took a look at that exchange between you and MUeller - it's funny as Hell that he tries to argues that it is not, as you observed, a bottleneck, even though almost all the dozen or so posts between your post and his response are people begging for invites :D

He really doesn't get it. Is he the main guy behind MU?

Donnacha
Jul 13, 2007, 11:35 AM
I just posted this proposal to the MUpromo discussion - who knows, someone might be listening:

macfan601, thanks for the kind words. What strikes me is that there have been so much thoughful analysis, from you, me and many others, not whining but actually pointing out exactly WHY the promo is bombing.

Although it appears as if the organizers have decided to go into hiding rather than salvage the situation, perhaps all of us here should agree upon a workable rescue plan - who knows, perhaps the MU folks will be inspired to get their game together and accept some well-meant advice.

Here are my suggestions, I would love to hear everyone else's:
1. Make the free MU membership a standard part of the bundle AND send one to everyone who has already taken a leap of faith on this promo.

(Effect - removal of bottleneck, clarity of offer, goodwill and extra publicity will push sales to Intaglio unlock with 24hrs)

2. Reduce TTP unlock level to 8000, on the obvious presumption that reaching it will stimulate an extra 2000 sales thereafter.

(Effect - having hit 4,000 with 2.5 days to go, 8000 will seem achievable, whereas 10,000 will not. As proved by MacHeist, the mere act of lowering that currently far off unlock level will bring the entire promo back to life and no money will be lost because, obviously, loads of people will jump onboard once TTP is unlocked).

3. Add a clause that, if TTP is unlocked within the last 24hrs, an extra 48hrs will be added to the promo, giving extra time for the news to spread and further ensure in excess of 10,000 sales - I figure that this mis-judgement with the invites has put the promo behind by 48hrs anyway.

Please MU, be big enough to see that you've messed up and take advice from people who mean well and don't want to see you torpedo your hard-earned reputation.

C'mon everyone, let's sort this mess out.

keirnna
Jul 13, 2007, 11:45 AM
eenu,

Things are not as sinister as you imply...

The reason I made my "official response" (link (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=3898108&postcount=141)) without any detailed explantion is that I didn't want to look like I was making excuses. In that, I understand the greater issue is one of perceived impropriety rather than necessarily any actual impropriety. Whether or not the story would have been posted without any finanicial incentive is irrelevant for the most part, since its impossible to separate after the fact.

The actual circumstances, however, are as follows ... MacRumors posted the original MacHeist stories as a cross promotion and had no finanicial stake or incentive. I think that's been clear. I was approached last week about participating in MacHeist II which I agreed to before any finanical offer was made. After the fact, I was offered some financial reward. This obviously complicated things down the line. Now, how can you believe me? You can't. Hence the official "no excuses" reponse before. However, I don't think it's arguable that the story was not of genuine interest for many. The reason I didn't disclose it initially? It didn't occur to me due to the sequence of events and that I was posting it without [initially] financial incentive. The reason I disclosed it later? You asked me outright if the site made any from MacHeist, and I realized that there could be issues of perceived impropriety. I think I've been pretty open about it in general.

eenu, I think you have to ask yourself is this. Let's say 6 months down the line, MacHeist III happens. I will certainly make sure to have no financial stake in it, but if I post a story about it anyway, would that bother you? If it would, then I have to reiterate that I think the bigger issue for you is that of MacHeist itself than the financial issues we've been talking about.

arn

I just want to say that I am happy that you ran this and the other ads. If you can make money from them that good for you. I don't care if you have stakes in an ad or not. I bought both of these bundles and I think they were/are a great deal.

eenu
Jul 13, 2007, 11:55 AM
I just want to say that I am happy that you ran this and the other ads. If you can make money from them that good for you. I don't care if you have stakes in an ad or not. I bought both of these bundles and I think they were/are a great deal.

The point was he didn't post it as an ADVERT it went in as NEWS. Please read the thread.

keirnna
Jul 13, 2007, 12:03 PM
The point was he didn't post it as an ADVERT it when in as NEWS. Please read the thread.

Yeah I did, like you said no one but you and two other people care.

Donnacha
Jul 13, 2007, 12:15 PM
Yeah I did, like you said no one but you and two other people care.
:D Eenu, you have to admit that an awful lot of people have made a point of saying that they appreciated hearing about this Mac-related news, regardless of the site's involvement. Usually, people with a bone to pick dominate a thread, while the unbothered majority remain silent. In this case, though, you've created a backlash!

BTW, how is your own bundle coming along? Any response to your email from Panic yet? Perhaps phoning them would be worth a shot too.

eenu
Jul 13, 2007, 12:25 PM
Yeah I did, like you said no one but you and two other people care.

If you had read correctly you wouldn't have written what you had. I am presuming your living in the USA? I guess your used to biased news then eh....

:D Eenu, you have to admit that an awful lot of people have made a point of saying that they appreciated hearing about this Mac-related news, regardless of the site's involvement. Usually, people with a bone to pick dominate a thread, while the unbothered majority remain silent. In this case, though, you've created a backlash!

BTW, how is your own bundle coming along? Any response to your email from Panic yet? Perhaps phoning them would be worth a shot too.

If you want to know more about that PM me. All looking promising at the moment.

keirnna
Jul 13, 2007, 12:31 PM
If you had read correctly you wouldn't have written what you had. I am presuming your living in the USA? I guess your used to biased news then eh....


I live in Japan!

Donnacha
Jul 13, 2007, 12:34 PM
I live in Japan!
Lucky bastard!

eenu
Jul 13, 2007, 12:35 PM
I live in Japan!

Well your attitude to a news story that was posted with financial backing behind it whilst not disclosing it at the time is interesting then!

Above i was just correcting the post where you called it an advert, had it been one of those the whole issue would never have occurred.

Back on topic i feel really sorry for those of you that have bought into the promo now as its looking very unlikely your going to get intaglio..... i hope you do though as i am waiting for it to unlock before i buy it :p

keirnna
Jul 13, 2007, 12:37 PM
Lucky bastard!

No iPhones here :(!

shadowfax
Jul 13, 2007, 12:40 PM
looks like MU responded... free memberships for all, and now 4 invites. Nice. I hope they can get the word out.

eenu
Jul 13, 2007, 12:41 PM
No iPhones here :(!

i'd feel sorry for you if you guys didnt get consoles etc first!

@shadowfax is that in response to the forum post by donnacha?

EDIT: Not seeing the free memberships for all!? All i can see is 4 coupons instead of 2......

iAlice
Jul 13, 2007, 12:50 PM
looks like MU responded... free memberships for all, and now 4 invites. Nice. I hope they can get the word out.

Yaaaay!!! :D

That's fantastic; I just donated my 4 additional invites on:
http://www.cedrik.fr/mupromo/

I love this promo, am grateful to MacRumors for telling us about it, and am enjoying the chance to work with other participants in getting at least Intaglio unlocked for all of us who plunked down our $50.

Join the ride if you need the apps, it's a good deal I think!
--Alice

shadowfax
Jul 13, 2007, 12:51 PM
i'd feel sorry for you if you guys didnt get consoles etc first!

@shadowfax is that in response to the forum post by donnacha?

EDIT: Not seeing the free memberships for all!? All i can see is 4 coupons instead of 2......

Free $20 Membership: After you purchase, you will be given four invite coupons. Send the coupons to your friends and you will now get a free Membership. If your friends purchase using the coupon link, they also will get a free Membership and you will unlock the rest of the bundle much faster.

There it is, bolded.

I think it was in response to a lot of us. Increasing the number of invites was their idea.

eenu
Jul 13, 2007, 01:01 PM
There it is, bolded.

I think it was in response to a lot of us. Increasing the number of invites was their idea.

Thanks.

I'll buy as soon as intaglio becomes unlocked

cube
Jul 13, 2007, 01:24 PM
They messed up the graphics on the main macupdate page.

Now Little Snitch is accounted for in the prices twice.

Donnacha
Jul 13, 2007, 01:35 PM
I think it was in response to a lot of us. Increasing the number of invites was their idea.
I guess any improvement is welcome but, sadly, they've missed the opportunity for real change here.

All the doubling of invites does is ease a bottle-neck that should not exist in the first place. Is is good that customers who jumped in early can now get their own membership but it is a bit scandalous that, in order to do so, they must divulge 4 of their friends email addresses. That's pretty scummy, although I understand what the MU crew think they're doing. All the same, this is classic bait and switch because the original wording of the offer, upon which many based their purchase, definitely gave the impression that a membership was included. It's pretty shocking that they think they can get away with simply changing the wording and not addressing the liability they've created - I get the impression they aren't aware of how expensive credit card charge-backs are. Damaging too - if as few as 1% dispute the charge, they'll lose their merchant account.

shadowfax
Jul 13, 2007, 01:53 PM
Donnacha, I am not comfortable calling it scummy. I don't think that what they've done or are doing is expressly misleading, it's just that the things they put in bold seem better than the details, when you read them. I don't think people feel particularly cheated, or that it's unethical. It's just that it's disappointing from the point of view of the prospective buyer.

That sucks, and it's probably going to cost us all TTPro, but it's not scummy or evil.

Donnacha
Jul 13, 2007, 02:02 PM
Donnacha, I am not comfortable calling it scummy. I don't think that what they've done or are doing is expressly misleading, it's just that the things they put in bold seem better than the details, when you read them. I don't think people feel particularly cheated, or that it's unethical. It's just that it's disappointing from the point of view of the prospective buyer.

That sucks, and it's probably going to cost us all TTPro, but it's not scummy or evil.
Yeah, fair enough, not deliberately scummy but demanding email addresses does have fairly seedy connotations/associations. Also, they have been less than upstanding in admitting that they made mistakes or even acknowledging that they did, indeed, change the wording after the promo had already started and been widely reported upon.

But, yes, I agree that the saddest thing is that they've blown TTP for everyone. That would have been great and, ironically, they could still do it if they had the balls to make the necessary adjustments.

cube
Jul 13, 2007, 02:29 PM
I think they botched the mupromo page by not making links from the application names to the descriptions. It's not obvious that clicking on that row of icons gives you that.
Some people may be too lazy to look up the application home pages on the internet, and when they see just a bunch of mostly unknown app names they just forget about it.

slughead
Jul 13, 2007, 04:25 PM
Uh here's the digg link to this.. you guys should probably digg it if you want to get intaglio.

I'm not buying until it's unlocked :)
http://digg.com/tech_deals/MacUpdate_Promo_Big_discounts_on_Mac_software_every_day

Donnacha
Jul 13, 2007, 06:29 PM
Just a quick update to let you know that one of the MU guys (turns out there are only 2 of them struggling to keep up with all this), Joel, has contacted me and others who raised concerns to say they are doing their best to streamline the process, starting with making the free membership available to every customer, including those who bought in early - with the sole condition that they divulge the email addresses of 4 friends.

The majority (but not all) posters in the MUpromo discussion are willing to stomach this and many pointed out that, if you are concerned about privacy, you can always give fake addresses - you get your membership even if none of the 4 addresses you give results in a sale. Personally, I think it would have been a lot classier to make the giving of emails voluntary rather than compulsory and I'm sure that plenty of people would have been happy to help out in that way but, what the Hell, it's a move in the right direction and almost honors the original wording of the offer.

Up until now, I have given the organizers a pretty hard time, mostly because I couldn't believe how little they seemed to be doing to fix the obvious structural problems, but I accept that their mis-steps were down to inexperience and their lack of response down to there being so few of them.

While the steps they've now taken are not all we could have wished for, I accept their argument that their hands are tied with regard to real steps we might have hoped for to re-ignite momentum, such as lowering the target for TTP to a more realistic 8000. Joel tells me that, unfortunately, unlike MacHeist, such a move would be entirely in the hands of the developers.

Giving the membership to all buyers, including those who made the mistake of jumping in early, was the right thing to do and we should accept it as a gesture that the MU guys have not given up on turning this promo around. Indeed, Joel tells me that they still have every intention of seeing ALL the apps unlocked, including the $99 Tech Tool Pro.

SO ... at this point, I believe that it is in all our interests to do what we can to get this promo moving again, even if only to encourage future promos from other organizers.

With sales now at 2,900, here is what you currently get for your $49:

SRS iWOW 1.1.8

GarageSale 3.2.2

Cocktail 3.8.1

Amadeus Pro 1.0.3

Fetch 5.2.1

Little Snitch 1.2.4

MacUpdate membership $20 - but only if you also give them 4 email addresses

There is a reasonable possibility, if sales pick up once again, that the unlock target of 4000 will also be reached:

Intaglio 2.9.5

All the licenses will have the same upgrade entitlements as regular, full-price licenses expect for Intaglio, whose v3 is due soon after Leopard, but the special promo licenses will get some sort of discount if upgrading to the new version.

Sadly, due to the loss of momentum over the last 48hrs and the huge gap between unlocks, it seems highly unlikely that the 9,999 target will be reached:

Tech Tool Pro 4.5.2

... which, obviously, is a great pity, but, all the same, the bundle as it stands is a good deal.

So, I'm endorsing the bundle but there is one small thing that has to be noted: if you read their FAQ page, there is a long, rambling answer to the apparently frequently asked question "There's a lot of discussion about the free Membership coupon invites. What's the story?"

If you read through this, you'll discover that Joel feels that the people, like myself, who sacrificed our own time to point out the obvious problems in their little promo, were, in fact, being selfish. Joel doesn't like selfish people and had hoped that this promo would be an opportunity for everyone to be be selfless and good. So, clearly, it isn't that their inexperience and incompetence messed things up, it was in fact all my fault :)

Don't believe the hype folks, MU are running this promo to make money, they are hypocritical to suggest otherwise and are no cleaner than the MacHeist guys. All the same, it's a good bundle and, if you want to see this distribution model adopted by more developers, jump in as soon as Intaglio gets unlocked.

fblack
Jul 13, 2007, 06:59 PM
Yaaaay!!! :D

That's fantastic; I just donated my 4 additional invites on:
http://www.cedrik.fr/mupromo/

I love this promo, am grateful to MacRumors for telling us about it, and am enjoying the chance to work with other participants in getting at least Intaglio unlocked for all of us who plunked down our $50.

Join the ride if you need the apps, it's a good deal I think!
--Alice

I had tried to get an invite, but the people listed ran out or didn't answer.:(
Oh, well I went to purchased the bundle anyways and Safari up n crashed on me in the middle of it! :eek: I've decided the Gods (besides a few demis around here) are against this offer. But hey I like to live dangerously (hopefully all the registration codes will work right). :D

So now I'm enjoying iWOW and setting up GarageSale, I hope some people establish some threads on their new software and tell us about their experiences (hint).

keirnna
Jul 13, 2007, 07:10 PM
I had tried to get an invite, but the people listed ran out or didn't answer.:(
Oh, well I went to purchased the bundle anyways and Safari up n crashed on me in the middle of it! :eek: I've decided the Gods (besides a few demis around here) are against this offer. But hey I like to live dangerously (hopefully all the registration codes will work right). :D

So now I'm enjoying iWOW and setting up GarageSale, I hope some people establish some threads on their new software and tell us about their experiences (hint).

I have two invites if anyone wants them. Just PM me here.

Donnacha
Jul 13, 2007, 09:14 PM
Guys, if you have any trouble getting your hands on an invite, just sign up and they'll give you the free membership anyway in return for 4 email addresses - might be quicker than getting one sent to you and they don't have to be real although, of course, real ones will spread the idea and increase the chance of them reaching the 4000 unlock.

eenu
Jul 14, 2007, 06:00 AM
Intaglio 2.9.5



I think there is a high chance this will need upgrading at leopard time. Its very near version 3.xx.

cube
Jul 14, 2007, 07:37 AM
There were a couple of very interesting upgrading deals for some apps bundled with MacHeist. Several apps got free upgrades. Only for one the upgrade price was not a special deal. A pair saw no new versions.

I don't think that holding back to buy a newer full version later is such a good idea.

uraniumwilly
Jul 14, 2007, 10:17 AM
I'll use Amadeus all the time. And I was skeptical about iWow, but after streaming some old Persian music pieces and adjusting some iWow settings, the sound is unbelievable.

mmccaskill
Jul 14, 2007, 06:26 PM
I noticed Techtool has a defrag tool. I've been told many times HFS didn't need a defrag tool. What gives?

eenu
Jul 14, 2007, 06:33 PM
I noticed Techtool has a defrag tool. I've been told many times HFS didn't need a defrag tool. What gives?

Thats called people making software for the sake of it to make money......

shadowfax
Jul 14, 2007, 07:37 PM
I noticed Techtool has a defrag tool. I've been told many times HFS didn't need a defrag tool. What gives?

I've always understood that HFS generally didn't fragment as badly, but I don't think that fragmentation is avoidable, no matter how good your file allocation is. Especially if you fill your hard drive up a lot (which is bad for other reasons).

Defragmentation isn't as life-changing on the Mac as it is for FAT32 on the PC, but I think it's of some use.

slughead
Jul 14, 2007, 08:47 PM
Don't believe the hype folks, MU are running this promo to make money, they are hypocritical to suggest otherwise and are no cleaner than the MacHeist guys. All the same, it's a good bundle and, if you want to see this distribution model adopted by more developers, jump in as soon as Intaglio gets unlocked.

No kidding!

The last time they did this, one of the guys made like $250k!

I don't feel bad for wanting a free macupdate membership. It seems really dumb to charge for that anyway since it really doesn't give you anything but a place to put your serials.

mashinhead
Jul 14, 2007, 11:29 PM
Hi guys,

I just donated my 2 promo invites to whoever needs them at:
http://www.cedrik.fr/mupromo/
There are 18 invites available as I write this.

Alice

does this mean it's free if you get an invite. I want the apps but i don't understand this whole thing at all.

shadowfax
Jul 15, 2007, 12:30 AM
does this mean it's free if you get an invite. I want the apps but i don't understand this whole thing at all.

Now you get a free membership if you invite 4 people (ou can make them up if you've not got many mac friends).

Just order it if you want the 8 apps. Maybe Intaglio. Or maybe Joel (the guy that's running this) will pull something out of his rear to get us all 10.

Anywho....

bgillander
Jul 15, 2007, 12:37 AM
does this mean it's free if you get an invite. I want the apps but i don't understand this whole thing at all.

The simplest way to get the most software is to simply use the MacHeist link to buy the software.

If you want the MacUpdate membership and don't already have a free membership, first go to MacUpdate and register for a free membership. Then go to the MacHeist link http://macheist.com/macupdate and when the MacHeist link takes you through to MacUpdate to purchase, you can just log in with your free MacUpdate ID to complete the purchase.

I did this, and even though my Safari session crashed upon the completion of the purchase, when I received the purchase confirmation email, the invite link was in the email. I went and sent an invite to ONE friend and once I did that when I checked my MacUpdate account it was indeed upgraded to a paid account automatically.

It really is a fairly painless process.

I wasn't really concerned about getting the MacUpdate membership originally, but since they were nice enough to add it as a bonus I am quite happy to check it out.

cube
Jul 15, 2007, 05:28 AM
You don't need to go through such convoluted ways to get the MU membership if you order through MacHeist.

slughead
Jul 15, 2007, 09:40 AM
Ya'll should use my sig: it hits the character limit for sigs.

"Little Snitch, GraphicConverter, Fetch, iWOW, GarageSale, Cocktail, ProfCast, Amadeus Pro, Browseback, Exces, a MacUpdate account, and MORE, FOR $50!"

Make sure to use http://mupromo.com/?buy=heist for the url.

If I don't get intaglio, I'm gonna be pissed. That was about 90% of the reason for me purchasing.

BigPrince
Jul 15, 2007, 09:43 AM
woot, money makes the world go round.

Donnacha
Jul 15, 2007, 09:44 AM
If I don't get intaglio, I'm gonna be pissed. That was about 90% of the reason for me purchasing.
Should have held off until it's unlocked like everyone else :o

cube
Jul 15, 2007, 09:46 AM
I'm not sure using that URL directly will give you the MacHeist stuff. I read there was a referrer check, so make sure to go through MacHeist, not the link you just posted.

slughead
Jul 15, 2007, 10:10 AM
I'm not sure using that URL directly will give you the MacHeist stuff. I read there was a referrer check, so make sure to go through MacHeist, not the link you just posted.

That's crap. I purchased by going directly to ?buy=heist and I got everything.

Not to mention that /? is not the buy link, so referral information would be lost unless you did a cookie or something.

slughead
Jul 15, 2007, 10:30 AM
Also, you guys should digg this:

http://digg.com/tech_deals/MacHeist_joins_forces_with_MacUpdate

It's more recent so it'll probably get more views.

fblack
Jul 15, 2007, 03:26 PM
Should have held off until it's unlocked like everyone else :o

I've seen people saying that. Yet that seems a good way of making sure that it doesn't get unlocked, especially in the home stretch when a couple of purchases from some holdouts might make the difference. :(

Donnacha
Jul 15, 2007, 03:44 PM
I've seen people saying that. Yet that seems a good way of making sure that it doesn't get unlocked, especially in the home stretch when a couple of purchases from some holdouts might make the difference. :(
Don't buy into the hype about the "Mac community" pulling together to make something wonderful happen here.

It is a for-profit operation that the organizers single-handedly managed to mess up, crippling the momentum at almost every stage. People bought in early on the reasonable assumption that it would be professionally managed and that the 9,999 was an attainable target.

Instead, the organizers created a massive bottle-neck with an ill-advised invite-your-friends scheme. At stake was a pretty much worthless MacUpdate membership but it was enough to make potential customers to hesitate and, as any salesperson will tell you, that kills a sale.

Even when it was obvious that their attempt to spur more sales had back-fired badly, they went into denial and, incredibly, blamed the slow-down on the people complaining about the scheme within their discussion thread. They became so attached to this delusion that they stuck with the compulsory invites scheme and refused to recognize that they needed to DO something to get momentum going once again, just as MacHeist did by bringing forward one of their unlocks.

Personally, I think it's a pretty good (but not great) deal but, if Intaglio is what makes the deal worthwhile for you, hold off, because it turns out you can't trust these idiots not to screw up even the simplest things. Just wait until it's in the bag and then order through MacHeist. Quite a few people now regretted jumping in early, not least because they were the ones who were really getting screwed on the invites thing, until we complained loudly enough to get that changed.

If the current rate of sales holds up, I estimate that Intaglio will unlock around 7hrs before the promo ends.

Ironically, if they were smart and humble enough to take a lesson from MacHeist, they would drop the confusing invites requirement, unlock Intaglio now (safe in the knowledge that this would automatically generate another 1000 sales), bring forward the Tech Tools unlock to 8,000 and relaunch the whole damn promo for the final 4hrs in a fire-storm of publicity. Again, actually unlocking Tech Tools would result in a further 2000 sales anyway, so, they can't lose and I'm sure the developers would be relieved to see the promotion actually succeed.

shadowfax
Jul 15, 2007, 04:22 PM
....
My goodness, you are getting better and better at slandering people. I am not so happy with how this was handled, but why all the anger? we'll see how it shakes out at the end. If we miss out on Intaglio, etc. that will be too bad, but that's how it goes. It's not like we're out in the cold for $50.

And we'll all know never to participate in a MU promo again. But who knows, maybe they have something nice planned. Don't make such a big deal out of this that you have to say rude things about people that you don't even know.

Donnacha
Jul 15, 2007, 05:26 PM
Not anger, you're taking me up wrong, I'm just calling it as I see it - incompetence is no excuse for misleading people.

Attention is the oxygen that drives these promos, they're designed to be a spectator sport and, if done right, make their organizers a lot of money.

Equally, if they're done badly, everyone gets to watch them go down in flames, that's just part of the trade-off.

bgillander
Jul 15, 2007, 06:18 PM
Not anger, you're taking me up wrong, I'm just calling it as I see it - incompetence is no excuse for misleading people.

Attention is the oxygen that drives these promos, they're designed to be a spectator sport and, if done right, make their organizers a lot of money.

Equally, if they're done badly, everyone gets to watch them go down in flames, that's just part of the trade-off.

Donnacha is right, attention is what drives these promos, and all it really takes is a couple of people constantly deriding the organizers in the promo's forum to really drag things down.

Especially when they cross post in multiple forums, "mentioning" the bad things being posted about the organizers in other forums, without stating that they are the ones posting those things.

You have to love the internet.

Donnacha
Jul 15, 2007, 06:42 PM
I've been keeping track of the reaction to this on quite a few websites but I've only been bothered to post here and in the promo's own discussion; I don't think there's anything wrong with reporting between the two.

Nobody made Joel promise that there were more surprises in the bag, more "big guns" as he put it, so, again, as it becomes more likely that this may have been deliberate lie to boost sales, it is 100% relevant to mention it and I am far from the only one to pick up on this.

One of the things that prevented the organizers from recognizing and fixing the problems early on was that they took the less painful option of convincing themselves that there was a conspiracy against them i.e. that people complaining about the problems were the problem. If they want to continue believing that as they dive-bomb into the final 24hrs, fine, it will give them a comforting excuse to tell themselves, but it's worth noting that I and most of the other people giving them a rough ride were consistently pointing out what they could, and still can, do to live up to the faith of all the people who bought in early.

bgillander
Jul 15, 2007, 08:13 PM
Nobody made Joel promise that there were more surprises in the bag, more "big guns" as he put it, so, again, as it becomes more likely that this may have been deliberate lie to boost sales...

It's comments like this that cause me to cringe. If you wait to the end of the process and there is no surprise at all coming from MacUpdate, then your saying that he lied wouldn't be an issue to me. However, saying "this may have been a deliberate lie" before that time has even come to pass seems truly inappropriate. When discussing lies, it seems wrong and ironic to me to not wait until the facts are at least in.

it's worth noting that I and most of the other people giving them a rough ride were consistently pointing out what they could, and still can, do to live up to the faith of all the people who bought in early.

Well, I came in from the MacHeist link right at the beginning, and for some reason I never thought the MacUpdate accounts were included for the inviter after I read the promo, so my faith was actually doing fine already. I thought Joel's addition of the MacUpdate membership for all was a nice gesture to try to quiet the "squeaky wheels", but unfortunately it didn't seem to work.

I personally thought it was a good bundle with clearly stated goals.

I then got to watch people disparage MacHeist and Arn on the first page of this forum and say they would rather pay full price to the developers, only to say on the ninth page that they were waiting for Intaglio to be unlocked before buying.(!?!) Oh, and they retracted their comments about MacHeist about halfway through the thread, long after anyone who wasn't still reading just to see how libelous people could be would have given up (with the impression this promo should be avoided.)

And yet everyone seems to think they are being magnanimous with their "helpful" reviews. We should start a restaurant forum; I can see the reviews already... Review 1 "try the fish, it's probably not poisoned", followed by review 2 "hey, why's nobody buying the fish?"

Anyway, I just found this a strange, frustrating forum that was like a wreck from which I could not look away... somehow a rather disturbing view on human nature. Considering the abuse Arn took at the beginning, I'm surprised he didn't shut this thread down, but I guess that would have only caused more dissent.

I'm just hoping this doesn't kill the possibility of any future MacHeist promos.

Donnacha
Jul 15, 2007, 08:46 PM
It's comments like this that cause me to cringe. If you wait to the end of the process and there is no surprise at all coming from MacUpdate, then your saying that he lied wouldn't be an issue to me. However, saying "this may have been a deliberate lie" before that time has even come to pass seems truly inappropriate. When discussing lies, it seems wrong and ironic to me to not wait until the facts are at least in.

I won't go into all your points, valid though they mostly are, other than to say that there was clearly an awareness among the people complaining in the MU thread (as opposed to the initial complaints here) that their main worry was not that MU were profiting but, rather, that they taking a pretty good model, unlock bundles, and ham-stringing to an extent that it might discourage others from running similar promos.

The idea of waiting until the promo finishes to point out possible lies is nice but, unfortunately, there may be people making purchases NOW based upon the promise that they'd get more then they actually will. I'm not saying that Joel won't stand behind his promises, I'm just saying that, as time goes by, and we're heading into the final day now, he seems to be taking his damn time about it. Neither am I saying that the bundle necessarily needs extras to make it worthwhile, it all depends on your individual needs. Some people, however, may be taking Joel's promise at face value and, with 3,548 people now having a vested interest in persuading them to buy, they deserve to hear a voice of caution too.

Of course, it is only fifty bucks, not a big deal, my main interest has mainly been in following how this process unfolds and watching the herd mentality that kicks in when people stand to gain a bit of extra software.

iAlice
Jul 15, 2007, 11:28 PM
Hi Everyone,

MacHeist just sweetened the deal tonight by adding another app, namely WriteRoom ($24.95), to this bundle if you buy through them (like I did). Read about the enhanced promo and all the apps in detail at:
http://macheist.com/index

Granted we'll need a minor miracle at this point in the game to unlock TechTool Pro at 10,000 bundles, but it looks like Intaglio will be ours by early tomorrow, which is great! Plus MacHeist says "at least one more application to be added to the deal by us, for our Heist customers" which I believe since they've already given us 2 extra apps since I bought through them.

I have no regrets about being an early buyer in this promo; I am very pleased with the apps, the delivery service, and am happily using several of them on a regular basis already.

To be frank, I'm so glad I ignored all the anti-MacHeist and anti-promo rhetoric on this thread and bought this fun and practical bundle from MacHeist/MacUpdate!

Have a good week,
--Alice

Donnacha
Jul 16, 2007, 12:08 AM
Yeah, the new MacHeist addition, WriteRoom, is superb if you like to write without distraction, I highly recommend it.

shadowfax
Jul 16, 2007, 12:21 AM
Damn it, I bought too early, before Phill came out and said that John Gruber and the other people crapping on him were misinformed, and I just went straight through MU. It's still a good deal, but I wish I hadn't erred on the safe side and been all suspicious of him.

Let's hope Joel has some cool ideas for tomorrow. Maybe he'll extend the promo a few days.

fblack
Jul 16, 2007, 02:16 AM
Don't buy into the hype about the "Mac community" pulling together to make something wonderful happen here.

What no group hugs? Not the touchy-feely type,eh? :) Don't worry I'm not buying into any hype. Its just about numbers, if there's 1% (just a guess) of total purchasers holding out like you that could make the difference of getting Intaglio or not.

It is a for-profit operation that the organizers single-handedly managed to mess up, crippling the momentum at almost every stage. People bought in early on the reasonable assumption that it would be professionally managed and that the 9,999 was an attainable target.

Instead, the organizers created a massive bottle-neck with an ill-advised invite-your-friends scheme. At stake was a pretty much worthless MacUpdate membership but it was enough to make potential customers to hesitate and, as any salesperson will tell you, that kills a sale.

I agree it wasn't handled spectacularly well.

Even when it was obvious that their attempt to spur more sales had back-fired badly, they went into denial and, incredibly, blamed the slow-down on the people complaining about the scheme within their discussion thread. They became so attached to this delusion that they stuck with the compulsory invites scheme and refused to recognize that they needed to DO something to get momentum going once again, just as MacHeist did by bringing forward one of their unlocks.

Maybe. Delusion might be too strong of a word, perhaps inexperience? But you are correct in that they needed to try to recapture momentum. At the very least it could have countered a lot of the negativity in forums which though legitimate can also kill momentum.


Personally, I think it's a pretty good (but not great) deal but, if Intaglio is what makes the deal worthwhile for you, hold off, because it turns out you can't trust these idiots not to screw up even the simplest things. Just wait until it's in the bag and then order through MacHeist. Quite a few people now regretted jumping in early, not least because they were the ones who were really getting screwed on the invites thing, until we complained loudly enough to get that changed.

No I already jumped in, and i'm not regretting it. My main interest was GarageSale, everything else is icing. Intaglio would offer a lot of value to the package if it gets unlocked.

I found the Macheist offer confusing, I think they were trying to be too cutesy and they scared off some with the isight business. Notice how Macheist has changed their pages now? It cleaner and easier to understand.

I think that you probably did help get things changed, and I have no issue with you complaining to get things moving in the right direction. But people may not listen if you are calling them idiots.

It's comments like this that cause me to cringe. If you wait to the end of the process and there is no surprise at all coming from MacUpdate, then your saying that he lied wouldn't be an issue to me. However, saying "this may have been a deliberate lie" before that time has even come to pass seems truly inappropriate. When discussing lies, it seems wrong and ironic to me to not wait until the facts are at least in.



Well, I came in from the MacHeist link right at the beginning, and for some reason I never thought the MacUpdate accounts were included for the inviter after I read the promo, so my faith was actually doing fine already. I thought Joel's addition of the MacUpdate membership for all was a nice gesture to try to quiet the "squeaky wheels", but unfortunately it didn't seem to work.

I personally thought it was a good bundle with clearly stated goals.

I then got to watch people disparage MacHeist and Arn on the first page of this forum and say they would rather pay full price to the developers, only to say on the ninth page that they were waiting for Intaglio to be unlocked before buying.(!?!) Oh, and they retracted their comments about MacHeist about halfway through the thread, long after anyone who wasn't still reading just to see how libelous people could be would have given up (with the impression this promo should be avoided.)

And yet everyone seems to think they are being magnanimous with their "helpful" reviews. We should start a restaurant forum; I can see the reviews already... Review 1 "try the fish, it's probably not poisoned", followed by review 2 "hey, why's nobody buying the fish?"

Anyway, I just found this a strange, frustrating forum that was like a wreck from which I could not look away... somehow a rather disturbing view on human nature. Considering the abuse Arn took at the beginning, I'm surprised he didn't shut this thread down, but I guess that would have only caused more dissent.

I'm just hoping this doesn't kill the possibility of any future MacHeist promos.

I'm with you on this one. I was getting a bad feeling about the promo, and I'm glad that i read through the entire post otherwise i would have taken a pass on the whole thing. I'm now happy that I did buy.

The idea of waiting until the promo finishes to point out possible lies is nice but, unfortunately, there may be people making purchases NOW based upon the promise that they'd get more then they actually will.

So youre saying he's lying.

I'm not saying that Joel won't stand behind his promises,

So he's not lying?

some people, however, may be taking Joel's promise at face value and, with 3,548 people now having a vested interest in persuading them to buy, they deserve to hear a voice of caution too.

So he maybe lying?

Of course, it is only fifty bucks, not a big deal, my main interest has mainly been in following how this process unfolds and watching the herd mentality that kicks in when people stand to gain a bit of extra software.


So now you are calling us all lemmings. :p

eenu
Jul 16, 2007, 05:23 AM
I then got to watch people disparage MacHeist and Arn on the first page of this forum and say they would rather pay full price to the developers, only to say on the ninth page that they were waiting for Intaglio to be unlocked before buying.(!?!) Oh, and they retracted their comments about MacHeist about halfway through the thread, long after anyone who wasn't still reading just to see how libelous people could be would have given up (with the impression this promo should be avoided.)

If you had the ability to read correctly i might be buying the mac update bundle (if intaglio unlocks).... the one that operates through REVENUE SHARING. I will not be touching the Mac Heist one. I only retracted personal insults to Phil as a matter of courtesy.

EDIT: Oh and Arn took no abuse. He was questioned appropriately about his involvement in the deal and whether he had posted news that he had financial interest in without disclosing it! No where was Arn given abuse. And as for Arn closing the thread.... Arn has me on his instant messenger list so if he had minded me writing what i had then he could have easily taken the discussion private.

Damn it, I bought too early, before Phill came out and said that John Gruber and the other people crapping on him were misinformed, and I just went straight through MU. It's still a good deal, but I wish I hadn't erred on the safe side and been all suspicious of him.

Let's hope Joel has some cool ideas for tomorrow. Maybe he'll extend the promo a few days.

Again to say to you all, the statement i made was on behalf of Phil. He makes a valid point that this is a Mac Update promo with the bundle terms negotiated by them not by Phil. This is why i was happy to post it. The rest is Phil saying the devs got more than Gruber stated etc for his MH1 promo. I have seen no paper work or evidence except what phil says to prove to me it is true. (That does not mean that i don't believe him but i don't know the guy in person, have seen no evidence and am taking his word)

If your happy to believe Phil's statement then buy away

Hi Everyone,

MacHeist just sweetened the deal tonight by adding another app, namely WriteRoom ($24.95), to this bundle if you buy through them (like I did). Read about the enhanced promo and all the apps in detail at:
http://macheist.com/index

Granted we'll need a minor miracle at this point in the game to unlock TechTool Pro at 10,000 bundles, but it looks like Intaglio will be ours by early tomorrow, which is great! Plus MacHeist says "at least one more application to be added to the deal by us, for our Heist customers" which I believe since they've already given us 2 extra apps since I bought through them.

I have no regrets about being an early buyer in this promo; I am very pleased with the apps, the delivery service, and am happily using several of them on a regular basis already.

To be frank, I'm so glad I ignored all the anti-MacHeist and anti-promo rhetoric on this thread and bought this fun and practical bundle from MacHeist/MacUpdate!

Have a good week,
--Alice

I have to say i am really questioning the validity of your posts. Joined a few days back, all 5 posts in this thread..... all 5 posts saying almost identical things getting far to orgasmic about a promo you are merely a consumer of? Hmmmmm.....not to mention your posts sound very spam/advertising like......

Donnacha
Jul 16, 2007, 07:56 AM
So he maybe lying?
God, at this point, I don't know! Let's just say that I have grave mis-givings; he made a promise on the MU thread, presumably addressed to people who had bought or were considering buying through MU, stating that more would be rolled out at the appropriate time but, so far, he hasn't come up with anything and we're into the last 16hrs.

Now, he may have been talking about the (very good) additions at MacHeist but that doesn't seem to fit because, of course, none of the people who bought through MU, at exactly the same price, get any of that stuff. I guess, technically, that wouldn't have been a lie but, um, just very misleading.

It's unfortunate because, of course, the earliest buyers, the ones who took the real leap of faith, didn't know how much better the MacHeist version would be and it was also the early buyers who got screwed on the (admittedly worthless) membership thing until we kicked up a fuss about it. As has been said already by others, the whole thing seems a bit backwards.

So now you are calling us all lemmings. :p
Hey, I find lemming behavior interesting because I'm a lemming myself!

bgillander
Jul 16, 2007, 08:33 AM
Back on topic i feel really sorry for those of you that have bought into the promo now as its looking very unlikely your going to get intaglio..... i hope you do though as i am waiting for it to unlock before i buy it :p

I was referring to this.