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MacRumors
Jul 21, 2003, 06:56 PM
MacBidouille claims (http://www.hardmac.com/niouzcontenu.php?date=2003-07-21#241) that Apple is debating stopping iBook production and decreasing the price of the 12" PowerBook or simply bumping the iBooks to a faster G3.



GigaWire
Jul 21, 2003, 07:03 PM
iBook EOL'd? Ya right.

bennetsaysargh
Jul 21, 2003, 07:04 PM
they have to go with faster G3s. if they do anything, they should lower the price of the 12" PB.

they would loose the consumer laptop market right there.

neutrino23
Jul 21, 2003, 07:23 PM
The State of Maine just bought iBooks for every 7th and 8th grader and now Apple will discontinue them because they are so unpopular?

Perhaps the iBooks are about to get a major makeover sometime in the next year or so and MacBidouille got wind of current iBooks being discontinued because of that. More likely they have completely wrong information.

Jerry Spoon
Jul 21, 2003, 07:27 PM
There's no way. Why? The education market. iBooks are probably the most popular mac in the ed. market right now.

Freg3000
Jul 21, 2003, 07:30 PM
Sure...this is must be a hard internal"debate" at Apple. Lose one of our best selling products or.....um....lose the consumer notebook market? Too easy.

xdfgf
Jul 21, 2003, 07:30 PM
Not yet at least I do believe that the iBook will eventually transition into some sort of ultra low power Pseudo-tablet/strange-little-sony-laptop, but thats still a few years out.

ALL IMHO :)

applemacdude
Jul 21, 2003, 07:31 PM
The ibooks will not get discountinued. They will just be updated and hopefully have a diffrent design. The powerbooks will be lowered $100.

AppleMatt
Jul 21, 2003, 07:32 PM
Not a chance, the minimum spec iBook has such a massive price gap between it and the PowerBook, and the iBook offers a 14" screen on a budget (compared to 15" PB).

I'd say they're more likely to update the PowerBook 12" to bring it more in line with PowerBook standards (DESCENT SCREEN PLEASE APPLE), and continue the iBook incremental updates. Perhaps a new case? (only perhaps, minor revisions maybe)

AppleMatt

DGFan
Jul 21, 2003, 07:42 PM
bump them!!

The problem is that the 15" is and will continue to be too expensive for people wanting a cheap laptop with a good sized screen. The 12" is just too small for many uses so lowering its price won't help.

Discontinuing a successful product like the iBook would be bad bad news.

Glossybear
Jul 21, 2003, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by AppleMatt
DESCENT SCREEN PLEASE APPLE

AppleMatt

??? What is wrong with the 12" screen?

I think A DVI port, some L3 cache, and more o-the-board RAM and the 12" will REALLY turn heads.

Aciddan
Jul 21, 2003, 07:43 PM
The way I read this, they're not removing a consumer laptop, but rather considering:

1) Merging the Professional and Consumer lines as ther differences become more 'blurred' (ie dropping price of the 12" PB into a lower consumer price point) - ie merging iBook/Powerbook lines into one laptop line (with a range of performance price points based on model)

OR

2) Going 'Bugger it' and throwing higher performance G3s into the iBook range

Personally, I think option 2 is the best option - why? because necessity is the mother of innovation ;) if the iBooks creep into the Powerbook range performance wise you either have to:
a) Cripple them (very bad - I am totally against deliberate crippling on any platform)
b) make the Powerbooks better (good :D )

having higher performance iBooks is a good thing because:
1) consumers get a zippy machine at low cost
2) acts as a catlyst to increase the performance of the pro line (ie step up moves to develop higher performing G*s)

What I don't understand is everyone complaining about how increasing the performance onf the consumer line will hurt sales. Honestly, I question the performance of the Pro machines if their consumer little brothers can mix it with them! Besides, a higher performance machine at the lower end will put more 'Butts on Seats' so to speak - because not only can Joe Avg use his email, but Joe Jr. will be playing UT2k3 etc.

Competition (even internal Consumer/Pro competition) is always good - it's like gravity, the more Apples are out there, more and more people will switch...

-- Dan, who will now end his zealous rant :D

AppleMatt
Jul 21, 2003, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by Glossybear
??? What is wrong with the 12" screen?

I think A DVI port, some L3 cache, and more o-the-board RAM and the 12" will REALLY turn heads.

Yes yes yes, I completely agree with you on these improvements (especially L3 cache, that was a crippling oversight), aswell as an improved graphics controller (or better drivers for the current one), and a faster hard-drive (can see more heat issues there however). Also faster start-up time and FW800/possibly USB 2.0.

But something that bothers me and many others is that the PowerBook 12" is a TFT XGA screen, whereas the 'old' 15" PowerBooks are TFT screens. When you are using them for extended periods of time, the sharpness and clarity of the 15" really shines through. It's annoying that the PowerBook is pitched as a 'Pro' line, and they used the same screen as in the iBook.

AppleMatt

thabih
Jul 21, 2003, 08:04 PM
As long as they keep a sub-$1000 notebook around, this is fine.

Here is what I believe Apple's product lineup should be (in case anyone gives a ****):

cheapMac
399
15inch CRT
1 GHz G3
256 MB RAM
20 GB HD
CD-ROM

coolMac
799
15 inch LCD
1.2 GHz G5
512 MB RAM
40 GB HD
Combo Drive

coolBook
799
12 inch LCD
1 GHz G3
256 MB Ram
20 GB HD
Combo Drive

powerMac
Starting at 1599
Dual 1.6 GHz G5
1 GB Ram
80 GB HD
Combo Drive

powerBook
Starting at 1599
15 inch LCD
1.2 GHz G5
512 MB Ram
40 GB HD
Combo Drive

I believe this is an elegant arrangment do-able for December. I think by getting rid of the clutter and lowering prices a bit, they can double market share to the elusive 5% in one years time.

Sun Baked
Jul 21, 2003, 08:22 PM
The question of PowerBook vs iBook it isn't.

The iBook no longer fits in with the consumer product matrix, and is adequately represented in it's niche by the PB12.

The question is whether Apple will keep around the iBook as an education machine, like the old CRT iMac.

And whether the eMac will go along with it.

OS 9 booting seems to be important in the education market.

Of course they can always make Dell happy and kill off all the OS 9 machines.

NOTE: The last time I brought this up, people said universities and colleges don't need OS 9 -- but I'm refering to the k-12 crowd.

Nermal
Jul 21, 2003, 08:25 PM
Drop the CRT off the cheapMac. A lot of people want a Mac without a screen.

mislabeledstar
Jul 21, 2003, 08:35 PM
I think it might be ideal to drop the ibook down to one size.

plinkoman
Jul 21, 2003, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by mislabeledstar
I think it might be ideal to drop the ibook down to one size.

why? they can't get rid of the 12", it's small, and inexpensive and alot of people wan't that, they can't get rid of the 14" because alot of people want a bigger screen but can't afford a pb, it doesn't make sense to cut either of them

NNO-Stephen
Jul 21, 2003, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by plinkoman
why? they can't get rid of the 12", it's small, and inexpensive and alot of people wan't that, they can't get rid of the 14" because alot of people want a bigger screen but can't afford a pb, it doesn't make sense to cut either of them

why not bump the 12" Pbook to a 14" screen with some L3 Cache and solve this whole mess?

Aciddan
Jul 21, 2003, 09:17 PM
Maybe they're aiming to position themselves better against equivalent competitors:

(from Slashdot - they call it a potential 12" killer):

http://reviews.designtechnica.com/firstlook24.html

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/07/21/2310222&mode=thread&tid=137

Maybe they're looking to fine tune the line to make the portables more attractive given new up-and-coming offerings by competitors

Now, before we start talking about Win vs OSX or intel vs Moto/IBM - the consumer sees a 'laptop' - and feature wise there are competitor notebooks out there that have caught up over the past 12 months to apple features (DVD-R, firewire, battery, slimline etc).

I put to you this may be a possible move to have a single product in each market sector (to be more competitive):

1) Subnote (<= 12")
2) Notebook ( <= 15")
3) Desktop Replacement (>= 17") :D

perhaps they're looking at this model rather than consumer/pro but rather a single line arranged in a way that there are cheap/expensive versions of all the sizes, but a single competitive wedge to drive into the market.

-- Dan, still ranting/raving :D

DGFan
Jul 21, 2003, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by Sun Baked
The question of PowerBook vs iBook it isn't.

The iBook no longer fits in with the consumer product matrix, and is adequately represented in it's niche by the PB12.


The 14" iBook screen as quite large compared to the Powerbook's 12" screen. The 14" iBook also happens to be cheaper and isn't a frying pan.

So how exactly is that niche filled?

As to your terminology: consumer product matrix.

The iBook IS the consumer product matrix. The powerbook is a pro model.

I plan to buy an Apple laptop. If my choices are only the 12" powerbook and the 15" powerbook I will not be buying one.

DGFan
Jul 21, 2003, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by Aciddan
Maybe they're aiming to position themselves better against equivalent competitors:

(from Slashdot - they call it a potential 12" killer):

http://reviews.designtechnica.com/firstlook24.html

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/07/21/2310222&mode=thread&tid=137


Sure, the Sony looks nice but it's a totally different class of machine. It's smaller yet it is $300 more. It doesn't have AGP graphics (only PCI). It's nice, but not exactly *killer*

PowerBook User
Jul 21, 2003, 09:42 PM
I highly doubt Apple would discontinue the iBook. I think they willl just add a better G3 processor. The iBooks are excellent laptops. Plus they only start at $999. It's a great deal for such a good laptop. I doubt Apple could get a PowerBook G4 anywhere near that cheap to replace the iBook.

funkywhat2
Jul 21, 2003, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by NNO-Stephen
why not bump the 12" Pbook to a 14" screen with some L3 Cache and solve this whole mess?

I could see that, but the difference between the 14" and the 15" may not sway some. The last thing we need is the mess from the mid 90's back - LC, Performa, PM, all with no differences. (You know what I mean.)

I think the entire PB line, 12"-17" should move to widescreen. Keep the iBook, but drop the price on each model by $100-150. Keep the G3 in it, and drop the base price on the 12" PB by at least $100 ($200?), so that if you really need to burn DVD's, you can, but at a price.

This way, by the end of the year, we should have this:

iBook 12" 900 MHz
DVD-ROM
40 GB
256 MB RAM
AirPort
$899

iBook 12" BTO 1 GHz
CD-RW (or Combo for +$75)
40 GB (or 60 for +$50)
256 MB RAM (or 512 for +$50)
AirPort
$999

iBook 14" BTO 1 GHz
Combo
40 GB (60 GB for +$50)
256MB RAM (or 512 for +$50)
AirPort
$1199

PB 12" 1.2 GHz (L3)
Combo
60 GB
512 MB RAM
AirPort Extreme
USB 2.0/FireWire 400
$ 1499

PB 12" BTO 1.2 GHz (L3)
SuperDrive
60 GB
512 MB RAM
AirPort Extreme
USB 2.0/FireWire 400 & 800
$1699

PB 15" 1.2 GHz
SD
60 GB
512 MB Ram
AirPort Extreme
USB 2.0/FireWire 400 & 800
$1999

PB 15" 1.33 BTO
SD (2x)
80 GB (100 GB for +$100)
1 GB RAM
AirPort Extreme
USB 2.0/FW 400 & 800
(Insert name of good GPU here)
Bluetooth (+$100)
$2499

PB 17" BTO
1.33 GHz G4 (1.42 for +$100)
SD (2x)
80 BG HD (100 BG for +$100)
1 GB RAM
AirPort Extreme
USB 2.0/FW 400, 800
(Same GPU as before. with double the memory)
Bluetooth
$2999

All models would include a case, and a DVI port.


Seem feasable?

bennetsaysargh
Jul 21, 2003, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by AppleMatt
Not a chance, the minimum spec iBook has such a massive price gap between it and the PowerBook, and the iBook offers a 14" screen on a budget (compared to 15" PB).

I'd say they're more likely to update the PowerBook 12" to bring it more in line with PowerBook standards (DESCENT SCREEN PLEASE APPLE), and continue the iBook incremental updates. Perhaps a new case? (only perhaps, minor revisions maybe)

AppleMatt

the reason they made the 12" Powerbook is so power users can have a compact laptop.

i myself would like to see (for the iBooks) a case change, same screen sizes, and a faster G3, (maybe somehow put altivec in it) bluetooth, maybe Airpoert xtreme, and a better graphics card. i want a 14" screen, that doesn't cost a lot. that's what the iBooks are for.

oh yeah, have an option for the BTO ones where you can kill OS 9.

cubist
Jul 21, 2003, 10:28 PM
I like funkywhat2's lineup. Killing the ibook would be insane, it's probably the best-selling Mac.

Abstract
Jul 21, 2003, 10:40 PM
This is the most depressing thing I have read this week. :(

The only way I can see them doing this is if they offer a wider range of specs using the current 12" PB casing. Just make it very configurable. Maybe you should be able to get an 867MHz, 1GHz, and 1.3GHz 7457 newer G4 model with configurable graphics cards, HD capacities, and Combo and Superdrive configurations that differentiate the price enough to appease those who would prefer to purchase an iBook. If they had a 12" PB minimum configuration with a $999 price tag, I'm sure most people would be happy.

I like the Alu casing more than the iBooks, but only because the iBook casing looks so wimpy. However, the sturdiness of the iBook plastic is appealing to me. I'd rather have an iBook, but I guess it may make more sense for Apple to just have 3 laptop models. I think what I just said in the previous sentence is absolute bullcrap, but that's the only reason Apple would do this --- it makes sense for them. :(

jaedreth
Jul 21, 2003, 10:50 PM
When Apple first released the PowerBook G4 12", they probably dubbed it an iBook G4. There could have been a last minute change in Marketing decided it better fit the PowerBook line. And now they may have to backpaddle.

This signifies the G5 powerbook is still a gleam in Steve's eyes, but it does give Apple the chance to redesign the consumer line in line with the new aesthetics. Drop the iBooks completely, and then rename the PowerBook G4 12" as the iBook G4, and make a 14" version, same architecture. Then make significant upgrades to the 15.2" and the 17". Apple has a golden opportunity here. So the iBooks won't be dropped, just transformed, as they were probably going to do.

Jaedreth

funkywhat2
Jul 21, 2003, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by cubist
I like funkywhat2's lineup. Killing the ibook would be insane, it's probably the best-selling Mac.

Thank you, and I think it was at one point.

yzedf
Jul 21, 2003, 11:05 PM
iBook is safe for now... just needs a Gobi to help it along once the PB gets the "new" G4 processor.

Sun Baked
Jul 21, 2003, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by DGFan
TSo how exactly is that niche filled?

As to your terminology: consumer product matrix.

The iBook IS the consumer product matrix. The powerbook is a pro model. Jadreth hits the point.

The PowerBook 12 is a dead ringer for the G4 iBook everybody has been waiting for -- though it does lack the plastic case people would expect. Feature wise it's spot on in layout and features for a fancy G4 iBook.

Which means it's occupying the G4 iBooks niche.

It's people that have trouble seeing the PB12 as the G4 iBook that would think the Crown Vic, Grand Marquis, and Town Car are three different vehicles and wouldn't think twice about buying a Town Car but would never buy a Crown Vic because Fords suck and have reliability issues.

Just because you slap a different name on something, doesn't magically change the machinery inside.

plinkoman
Jul 21, 2003, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by NNO-Stephen
why not bump the 12" Pbook to a 14" screen with some L3 Cache and solve this whole mess?

did you even read what i said? there are more then enough people who want a smaller laptop to make that idea incredibly stupid.

NNO-Stephen
Jul 21, 2003, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by plinkoman
did you even read what i said? there are more then enough people who want a smaller laptop to make that idea incredibly stupid.

then they can get an iBook.

mim
Jul 22, 2003, 12:13 AM
I would guess the real issue is that Apple need to get their whole processor line onto altivec asap so that they can convince developers to write as much of their software as possible for it. If apple can't get the powerbooks onto G5's fast enough I would guess that would be a reason for them to look at dropping the iBooks.

Like other people have been saying, the current 12" powerbook inards seem to be made to drop into an iBook type shell. New powerbooks will probably add l3 cache, better screen, etc.

Abstract
Jul 22, 2003, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by plinkoman
did you even read what i said? there are more then enough people who want a smaller laptop to make that idea incredibly stupid.

So have a 14", 15", and 17"??? How about a 16" as well. May as well fill that nasty gap. :p

Sun Baked
Jul 22, 2003, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by NNO-Stephen
then they can get an iBook. Wouldn't it also be just as easy to leave the size exactly the same, and those that want the 14" PowerBook with the big brother features can turn around and buy the 15".

Otherwise what's the point of making the PB12 into a 14" machine with FW800, USB2, L3 cache, etc. when the 15" machine is nearly the same size?

If they can buy a iBook to satisfy their small compact machine yearnings when the 14" is too big, why can't they buy a PB15 to satisfy their bigger is better size fetish?

Jerry Spoon
Jul 22, 2003, 12:29 AM
Stopping iBook production = Year of the Laptop:confused:

Zoboomafoo
Jul 22, 2003, 12:32 AM
lets all go back to the time before Jobs' return. apple had SO many different computers in production. wasn't it over 20?

the appealing thing about killing the iBook - or rather, what would be merely an elimination of certain redundancies - is that it would halt what is becoming an increasingly diverse and bloated product matrix.

the questions become - does one need 5 different laptops in production? would having 4 or maybe even 3 really hurt sales?

i like the idea of taking one out. but i'd point quite vigorously at the 17" PB as the first to go. i do so not knowing sales figures, but it just seems so far out of whack with what people will buy. i could be wrong.

i wonder about the 14" ibook. it just seems out of place. if you rank all the books in order of 'best-ness' is it above or below the 12" pb. its speed vs screen.

if apple continues to grow its product line, it should better do so with definition. there's no question where the xserve goes, or the g5, or the imac, or the emac. the g4 is a little hazy, but still relevant i'd say. the books are where things get muddy.

apple needs to figure out whats consumer and whats pro. but right now, there's a 100 dollar difference between the 14" ibook and the 12" powerbook. there needs to be better separation. and thats what i think the rumor here is meant to address.

Wonder Boy
Jul 22, 2003, 12:58 AM
Keep the ibook, just make it faster and give it another firewire port. it can be 400 i dont care. but a total of 2 firewire ports would make me happy.

Wonder Boy
Jul 22, 2003, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by Sun Baked
If they can buy a iBook to satisfy their small compact machine when the 14" is too big, why can't they buy a PB15 to satisfy their bigger is better size fetish?

I agree.

job
Jul 22, 2003, 01:51 AM
Originally posted by Zoboomafoo
if apple continues to grow its product line, it should better do so with definition. there's no question where the xserve goes, or the g5, or the imac, or the emac. the g4 is a little hazy, but still relevant i'd say. the books are where things get muddy.

Spot on. Recently I had been pricing both types of Apple 'books (12" iBook and 12" PBook) in an attempt to find exactly what I wanted for college. Instead I was left with two solutions, that at first glance seem exactly the same, barring a $100 educational price difference. The screen and specs were pretty much the same, with the same performance. How can one decide? It's a bit unclear where or how the 12" Powerbook fits with the iBooks. IMO Apple should have released the 12" Powerbook as a Special Edition iBook harking back to the days of the CRT iMacs. Or, switched the entire line of iBooks over to the G4 (albeit at lower speeds and with less tech/specs than the Powerbooks.)

Instead of deciding on what type of 'book I wanted, I was turned off by the choices given by Apple. Not in terms of performance and/or speed versus the Intel world, but in terms of Apple's own products. Two almost identical 'books? What's the point?

panphage
Jul 22, 2003, 04:15 AM
Originally posted by Abstract
This is the most depressing thing I have read this week. :(

The only way I can see them doing this is if they offer a wider range of specs using the current 12" PB casing. Just make it very configurable. Maybe you should be able to get an 867MHz, 1GHz, and 1.3GHz 7457 newer G4 model with configurable graphics cards, HD capacities, and Combo and Superdrive configurations that differentiate the price enough to appease those who would prefer to purchase an iBook. If they had a 12" PB minimum configuration with a $999 price tag, I'm sure most people would be happy.

I kinda like this idea. I've always really wondered at the rigid consumer/pro distinctions. You could do this right along the powerbook line, with the 15 having the same options, so the minimal 15 is the price of the current 14 iBook. Yes, you could configure a 12" that costs more than the minimal 15, but some people want performance AND the smaller size, some want a bigger screen and 867 is plenty fast. Upsides for apple include having to engineer and produce less mobos and controller chips. Downside: having to build pretty much every single box to order. I wouldn't know what to do with the 17 in this scenario, this monster is really a status item that should probably remain in an "ultimate" configuration. People buying it are probably replacing desktops anyway, right?

mvc
Jul 22, 2003, 05:02 AM
Originally posted by AppleMatt
the iBook offers a 14" screen on a budget (compared to 15" PB).


AppleMatt

Correct me if I am wrong, but both the 12" and 14" iBooks have EXACTLY the same number of pixels - 1024 x 768. So although the screen is 14", it actually offers no more pixel real estate than the 12", and is way short of the 15" in resolution.

Since you have to lug a bigger laptop around, and there are no other real benefits, I have no idea why anyone buys the 14" iBook over the 12"unless they are a bit longsighted or desperately need an extra hours battery life.

C'mon Apple, make those extra inches count for something!:rolleyes:

aasmund
Jul 22, 2003, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by DGFan
The 14" iBook screen as quite large compared to the Powerbook's 12" screen. The 14" iBook also happens to be cheaper and isn't a frying pan.

So how exactly is that niche filled?

As to your terminology: consumer product matrix.

The iBook IS the consumer product matrix. The powerbook is a pro model.

I plan to buy an Apple laptop. If my choices are only the 12" powerbook and the 15" powerbook I will not be buying one.
When you are trying to make fun of people you better know what you are talking about. When he says consumer product matrix, i assume he is talking about the options available to consumers...

Here is a product matrix:

http://www.ge.com/capital/globalfinance/02_countries/02_matrix.html

Now I don't see that table or matrix if you like being replaced by on big Ibook do you?

job
Jul 22, 2003, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by mvc
Since you have to lug a bigger laptop around, and there are no other real benefits, I have no idea why anyone buys the 14" iBook over the 12"unless they are a bit longsighted or desperately need an extra hours battery life.

The 14" has longer battery life? Interesting. I would have thought just the opposite.

crenz
Jul 22, 2003, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by job
The 14" has longer battery life? Interesting. I would have thought just the opposite.

Basically it has a bigger casing with almost the same features as the 12", so the additional space can be used for a bigger battery.

neoserver
Jul 22, 2003, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by NNO-Stephen
why not bump the 12" Pbook to a 14" screen with some L3 Cache and solve this whole mess?

If they were to do this to the 12" powerbook... Then Apple would no longer have the worlds smallest full-featured notebook. Wouldn't it look funny to advertise it as that and then just make it bigger all of a sudden...

fabsgwu
Jul 22, 2003, 10:28 AM
I thought this was the year of the Notebook. Apple would do well to keep some variety in their line of portables. Start out with that new and improved G3 chip we've been hearing about.

Keep 'em coming

Abstract
Jul 22, 2003, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by panphage

Originally posted by Abstract

This is the most depressing thing I have read this week. :(

The only way I can see them doing this is if they offer a wider range of specs using the current 12" PB casing. Just make it very configurable. Maybe you should be able to get an 867MHz, 1GHz, and 1.3GHz 7457 newer G4 model with configurable graphics cards, HD capacities, and Combo and Superdrive configurations that differentiate the price enough to appease those who would prefer to purchase an iBook. If they had a 12" PB minimum configuration with a $999 price tag, I'm sure most people would be happy.

I kinda like this idea. I've always really wondered at the rigid consumer/pro distinctions. You could do this right along the powerbook line, with the 15 having the same options, so the minimal 15 is the price of the current 14 iBook.....

....Downside: having to build pretty much every single box to order. I wouldn't know what to do with the 17 in this scenario, this monster is really a status item that should probably remain in an "ultimate" configuration. People buying it are probably replacing desktops anyway, right?

Exactly. Like you mentioned, the only problem is that every computer is BTO. I can't figure out how they could eliminate the iBook price points without using this idea, but with everything built to order, how would Apple handle the orders? Maybe they shouldn't have too many configurations?

Also, the non-plastic case of the Alu books is still a problem for me. :(

And I agree with anybody who said that having a 12" PB and 12" iBook appears redundant, but they don't have to be completely different in order for Apple to produce them. If the only difference between them is the Alu and plastic casing, then so be it.

@DGFan: Does DGFan = David Gray Fan? :confused: I'm just curious.

iShater
Jul 22, 2003, 12:41 PM
Well, I definitely hope Apple is not planning on sacrificing any iBooks!

Apple needs to have the two different "lines", the PowerBook and the iBook. For a minute, forget about the screen size, the screen size is pretty much helps in determining the price but more importantly the portability of the system.

They need to differentiate the lines by specs and price. The iBook has to remain cheap to stay comptetitive in the market, and that is why it is a 'consumer' machine.

The problem with the 12" PB looking a lot like the iBook is that Apple did not include any innovations in it. The G4 is still not available in them > 1Ghz, if it was, you would see a bigger difference between the iBook and the PowerBook and this whole issue would be moot.

zach
Jul 22, 2003, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by mvc
Correct me if I am wrong, but both the 12" and 14" iBooks have EXACTLY the same number of pixels - 1024 x 768. So although the screen is 14", it actually offers no more pixel real estate than the 12", and is way short of the 15" in resolution.

Since you have to lug a bigger laptop around, and there are no other real benefits, I have no idea why anyone buys the 14" iBook over the 12"unless they are a bit longsighted or desperately need an extra hours battery life.

C'mon Apple, make those extra inches count for something!:rolleyes:

I have a 12" iBook, and while the screen is a bit small, once you really start using it, it is great for email, web, etc. While you may not have enough screen space for photoshop or the like, the 14" doesn't solve the problem either, because of the above mentioned resolution similarity. Personally, i am all in favor of killing the 14" iBook, putting a Gobi in the 12", putting G5's in the 15 and 17 inch powerbooks, and putting a GHz+ G4 with L3 cache in the 12" powerbook. I think that would make everyone happy. :D

bennetsaysargh
Jul 22, 2003, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by iShater
Well, I definitely hope Apple is not planning on sacrificing any iBooks!
i do too.

Apple needs to have the two different "lines", the PowerBook and the iBook. For a minute, forget about the screen size, the screen size is pretty much helps in determining the price but more importantly the portability of the system.
the screen size is very important.

They need to differentiate the lines by specs and price. The iBook has to remain cheap to stay comptetitive in the market, and that is why it is a 'consumer' machine.
i completely agree with you.

The problem with the 12" PB looking a lot like the iBook is that Apple did not include any innovations in it. The G4 is still not available in them > 1Ghz, if it was, you would see a bigger difference between the iBook and the PowerBook and this whole issue would be moot.
what the 12" powerbook needs to distinguish it from the 12" iBook s stuff like FW800 USB2 and other stuff. Let the iBooks have USB1.1 and FW400, and kjeep Airport. That is the real way to make the line btwqeen the 2 more clear.

iShater
Jul 22, 2003, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by bennetsaysargh
i do too.


the screen size is very important.


i completely agree with you.


what the 12" powerbook needs to distinguish it from the 12" iBook s stuff like FW800 USB2 and other stuff. Let the iBooks have USB1.1 and FW400, and kjeep Airport. That is the real way to make the line btwqeen the 2 more clear.

Thanks for agreeing ;)

I don't think my comment about the screen was clear. However, people should not be considering a 12" system "slower" than a 15" system. Apple tried to do that in their stupid "fast, faster, fastest" scheme. If you need a big screen, then an iBook is not for you, even the 14" would help, so right their you are locked into the PowerBook.

If you power is important, well, again you are going for the PowerBook line.

Now, if you need a portable on a budget, the iBook line is for you.

People don't see the difference between the 12" iBook and PB because for $300 you don't feel you are getting that much more, and that is correct. Once they make a significant update to the PowerBook line, that gap will start to show better and people can make easier choices.

Sun Baked
Jul 22, 2003, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by Abstract
And I agree with anybody who said that having a 12" PB and 12" iBook appears redundant, but they don't have to be completely different in order for Apple to produce them. If the only difference between them is the Alu and plastic casing, then so be it. But then again you look at the Ford, Mecury, Lincoln example and see that you can sell the same machine for three different prices.

But the G4 iBook and the PB12 would not only be different in case design and price.

But the included software and warranty are different between the two.

About the only problem with killing the iBook would be killing the software package that comes along with the iBook (which is consumer oriented).

Though a PB12 SE with a plastic case, a $999 price, combo drive, and a consumer oriented software package (Games, Appleworks, Quicken Home edition) would kill off the iBooks.

Raidiant
Jul 23, 2003, 06:18 AM
did you guys see the sales report? the ibooks are STILL the best selling laptop out there...they will not stop production..the ibooks can do everything an average consumer wants including video editing and games. I see no point in buying a powerbook if your on a budget unless you really need that slow 1x superdrive and extra screen space.

There is also a huge price gap between the powerbook and the ibook. I believe if the 14" 's resolution is raised and the proccesor is speeded up to 1ghz + it will even be better. The ibook packs a decent graphic card, software suitand everything into a good package. In addition the bad economy only makes cheap things sell better, and they do as the product sales show.

I would say go for it and push the ibooks up

DakotaGuy
Jul 23, 2003, 07:31 AM
Apple shipped 771,000 Macs during the quarter (down 5% from last year)

287,000 iMacs and eMacs shipped (down 24%)

190,000 iBooks shipped (up 12%)

161,000 PowerBooks shipped (up 71%)

133,000 Power Mac G4s shipped (down 20%)

This rumor is stupid or Apple is stupid. My guess if Apple did not show sales combined from the iMac and eMac, you would probably see the iBook is their best selling line. Up 12% at 190,000 sales and Apple is going to dump it? I don't get it, maybe someone else does...

bennetsaysargh
Jul 23, 2003, 11:21 AM
maybe someone messed up and it was G4 vs G3?

Raidiant
Jul 23, 2003, 11:49 AM
that said you can make a very attractive ibook, by lowing the current 12" to ibook's price. I foresee apple thinks, the ibook is an old design, and the G3 needs to be replaced sooner or later. What more better idea then to just shift the 12" PB to the consumer market. The current 12" PB would make a very attractive ibook.

BTW nowadays the consumer and prosumer market is getting more mixed up. You have prosumers only needing slow proccesing power, and consumers seeking for expensive power which they won't even use.

bennetsaysargh
Jul 23, 2003, 12:00 PM
the 12" PB will stay a powerbook. the iBooks will stay consumer. there may be people not knowing what they want, but apple needs not step in here.

AppleMatt
Jul 23, 2003, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
161,000 PowerBooks shipped (up 71%)

I've read this before...it's a big increase!

AppleMatt

tizza
Jul 23, 2003, 05:37 PM
now that the G5 is out, Apple may have a much harder time selling a G3-based machine i.e. the current iBook. But like people have said, it does seem stupid to dump a cunsumer laptop that has been selling so well - still think I'll be getting a new 12" PB though ...

Phil Of Mac
Jul 23, 2003, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by bennetsaysargh
oh yeah, have an option for the BTO ones where you can kill OS 9.

I can imagine a bundled version of UT2003 where instead of shooting your friends, you shoot giant floating Mac OS 9 CD's :)

I think Apple's strategy, and it's a good strategy, and it should be done more and better, is that they realize that people of all walks of life like to use both subnotebooks (12 inches) and regular notebooks (14/15 inches). Obviously they need both an iBook and a PowerBook of both types, with the PowerBook endowed with more features, a better processor, and a metal look to it (as opposed to the consumer-level white plastic). For subnotebooks, you have the 12" iBook and the 12" PowerBook. For regular notebooks, there's the 14" iBook and the 15" PowerBook (the PowerBook gets an extra inch just because it's so studly.) In the meantime, the 17" PowerBook is just there as a luxury toy/desktop replacement/mobile content creation machine.

murak
Aug 31, 2003, 03:40 PM
Iīm not even gonna comment if iBook is toast. Hopefully IBM has finnished their new G3 (1ghz 1 meg cache etc) by now and we will se it during september. I donīt think Apple will introduce Altivec in iBook and I canīt see how we need it? More cache and higher busspeed chould be enough (think: price for buyer) My gues is also that we will see the Radeon 9000 in the next iBook, and PB will get either GF52-something or a new ATI card.

Please hurry Apple!

vollspacken
Sep 3, 2003, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by tizza
now that the G5 is out, Apple may have a much harder time selling a G3-based machine i.e. the current iBook.

why so? I would instantly buy a up-to-date 1+Ghz low-end G3 box..! the G3 is a nice processor that still has a lot of potential in it. I believe that an enhanced G3 will replace the G4 in the iMac/eMac line and the iBook after the PB-line will get G5s sometime next year...

c'mon Apple, gimme da G3-box, pleeaaase :(

vSpacken

iPC
Sep 5, 2003, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by neoserver
If they were to do this to the 12" powerbook... Then Apple would no longer have the worlds smallest full-featured notebook. Wouldn't it look funny to advertise it as that and then just make it bigger all of a sudden...
It is not the world's smallest full-featured notebook.

Sony and others offer 10.6" sub-notebooks that include optical drives, higher res widescreen displays, wireless networking (802.11b or 802.11g/b), and long battery life (enouogh to watch 2 DVD's). You can even choose between a Centrino based solution (Sony Vaio PCG-Z1RA or Fujitsu LifeBook P series) or Transmeta Crusoe (Fujitsu Lifebook P series).

http://www.fujitsupc.com/www/productbridge_pseries.shtml

http://www.vaio.net/

iPC
Sep 5, 2003, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by AppleMatt
I've read this before...it's a big increase!

AppleMatt
3 models compared to 1 last year. Sales had better go up.... :rolleyes: