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nickspohn
Sep 5, 2007, 12:07 PM
Discuss.



malenfant
Sep 5, 2007, 12:10 PM
Uh, yeah. You have to first buy the song from iTunes, and then you have to pony up another 99 cents to make a ringtone out of it.

As Bob Saget would say, "**** that ****."

Time for iToner.

mpuck972
Sep 5, 2007, 12:13 PM
Uh, yeah. You have to first buy the song from iTunes, and then you have to pony up another 99 cents to make a ringtone out of it.

As Bob Saget would say, "**** that ****."

Time for iToner.

Guess Steve Jobs is trying to find ways to get closer to Bill Gates income? .99 + .99 = Failure for Apple

darthraige
Sep 5, 2007, 12:13 PM
It still boggles my mind that someone would actually PAY for a RINGTONE!!!! I can do it for free and make my own with final cut and transfer it for free with bluetooth? Why are people still buying ringtones?

Tommyg117
Sep 5, 2007, 12:26 PM
Service will be turned on "next week"? Really? Come on, just do it now.

snook911
Sep 5, 2007, 12:28 PM
Uh, yeah. You have to first buy the song from iTunes, and then you have to pony up another 99 cents to make a ringtone out of it.

As Bob Saget would say, "**** that ****."

Time for iToner.


You do know at $1.98 thats cheaper then most other cell companies charge for ringtones.

mpuck972
Sep 5, 2007, 12:29 PM
Service will be turned on "next week"? Really? Come on, just do it now.

It's works now with third party apps, and they only cost $10-$15 total, as opposed to $1.98 each tone.

malenfant
Sep 5, 2007, 12:32 PM
You do know at $1.98 thats cheaper then most other cell companies charge for ringtones.The cell companies are ripoff artists when it comes to ringtones. Just because Apple is cheaper doesn't make them any more right.

And I've already GOT my music. Fair use doctrine tells me I should not have to pay to snip a piece of it into a ringtone.

Apple blew this one big time, boys and girls. iTunes should let you snip any song you already own into a ringtone, free of charge.

mpuck972
Sep 5, 2007, 12:40 PM
The cell companies are ripoff artists when it comes to ringtones. Just because Apple is cheaper doesn't make them any more right.

And I've already GOT my music. Fair use doctrine tells me I should not have to pay to snip a piece of it into a ringtone.

Apple blew this one big time, boys and girls. iTunes should let you snip any song you already own into a ringtone, free of charge.

I agree 100%. It amazes me how forgiving most people on here are of Apple. If that was Bill Gates announcing that, as opposed to Steve Jobs, there would be lawsuits filed already.

We own it, we should be able to use it.

snook911
Sep 5, 2007, 12:44 PM
The cell companies are ripoff artists when it comes to ringtones. Just because Apple is cheaper doesn't make them any more right.

And I've already GOT my music. Fair use doctrine tells me I should not have to pay to snip a piece of it into a ringtone.

Apple blew this one big time, boys and girls. iTunes should let you snip any song you already own into a ringtone, free of charge.

so what if you already downloaded and paid for a song through itunes. will you have to buy that song all over again and wind up with two copies of the same song or will itunes recognize the differance between the songs you downloaded from them and say the songs you downloaded from another source.

Island Dog
Sep 5, 2007, 12:55 PM
I'm very disappointed in this.

Tommyg117
Sep 5, 2007, 12:59 PM
It's works now with third party apps, and they only cost $10-$15 total, as opposed to $1.98 each tone.Yeah, I would rather do something that was made by the company that made the phone and is guarenteed to work and not cause problems later. I just don't wanna mess with iToner or anything.

Canuck4
Sep 5, 2007, 01:09 PM
Are you serious, they're only going to allow paid transfers to the iphone?
Im so glad I got the iphone ringtone maker then :D

Canuck4
Sep 5, 2007, 01:11 PM
Its not going to cause any problems or mess with the phone bro.
If you feel like paying Itunes for ringtones thats up to you but those programs like Itoner and iphone ringtone maker work perfect and with both updates never gave any problems to anyone.


Yeah, I would rather do something that was made by the company that made the phone and is guarenteed to work and not cause problems later. I just don't wanna mess with iToner or anything.

mpuck972
Sep 5, 2007, 01:14 PM
Its not going to cause any problems or mess with the phone bro.
If you feel like paying Itunes for ringtones thats up to you but those programs like Itoner and iphone ringtone maker work perfect and with both updates never gave any problems to anyone.

I felt the same way, but Canuck is right, these programs work seemless.

MacRumors
Sep 5, 2007, 01:18 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Apple released a new version of iTunes at the "Beat Goes On" special media event today, allowing users to make their own ringtones & sync directly to the iphone for $.99 in addition to the cost of the song. The user is allowed to pick any 30 second selection from a song, with iTunes automatically creating fade-in and -out for the ringtone. After agreeing to your selection, you can click the "buy" button and for 99 you have a ringtone.

Only select songs are available to create ringtones from, with each usable track displaying a "bell" icon.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/09/05/new-itunes-released/)

logandzwon
Sep 5, 2007, 01:20 PM
This sounds retarded.

If iTunes lets you import your own ring-tones created out of iTunes then I take this comment back 100%.

travishill
Sep 5, 2007, 01:20 PM
I hope people maintain some perspective here: this is one of the cheapest, legit ringtone services available.

I think its crazy that the record labels will only license ringtones separately, but since ringtones shot up into an insane amount of revenue real quick it isn't too surprising. If it were Apple's call, there wouldn't be an additional charge at all...

Radam
Sep 5, 2007, 01:21 PM
my thing is we paid 500$ for the phone plus 20+ a month and we can't even use our own songs for ringtones, Some of us do still use CD's!

irun5k
Sep 5, 2007, 01:21 PM
What if it is content that I own the copyright too? My own content?

Small White Car
Sep 5, 2007, 01:21 PM
Well, seeing as how we have all these software options coming out left and right that do the same thing, I don't see how this affects ANYONE here.

Only the ignorant should be offended by this, since they're the only one who'll pay for it. Smart folks have no reason to complain.

So who here wants to be the first to complain? :D

damienvfx
Sep 5, 2007, 01:24 PM
Are there any other iPhone owners out there who are annoyed with Apple right now? Some of us just bought a $600 phone 2 MONTHS ago, and they just dropped the price, and released a new product that is almost the same thing without having to deal with at&t.

Thanks Apple. Remind me never to buy any new device you come out with for a couple of months ever again.

God^Cent
Sep 5, 2007, 01:25 PM
If I had a iphone I'd cry.

Amblinman
Sep 5, 2007, 01:25 PM
I agree 100%. It amazes me how forgiving most people on here are of Apple. If that was Bill Gates announcing that, as opposed to Steve Jobs, there would be lawsuits filed already.

We own it, we should be able to use it.

You can, just not through iTunes's service.

It's amazing to me that people are under the impression that everything is coming to them for the low, low cost of nothing.

This is how capitalism works, boys and girls. Apple offers a service, you either find it worth the price or you don't. One thing I hate about the post-Napster era is how so many folks think anything they want should be free.

Motley
Sep 5, 2007, 01:25 PM
Are there any other iPhone owners out there who are annoyed with Apple right now? Some of us just bought a $600 phone 2 MONTHS ago, and they just dropped the price, and released a new product that is almost the same thing without having to deal with at&t.

Thanks Apple. Remind me never to buy any new device you come out with for a couple of months ever again.


You must be new here.

Amblinman
Sep 5, 2007, 01:26 PM
Are there any other iPhone owners out there who are annoyed with Apple right now? Some of us just bought a $600 phone 2 MONTHS ago, and they just dropped the price, and released a new product that is almost the same thing without having to deal with at&t.

Thanks Apple. Remind me never to buy any new device you come out with for a couple of months ever again.

No, because I wanted a smartphone with media capabilities. If you purchased your iPhone just for the iPod portion of it, then you're a shmuck because of course Apple was going to release a new iPod that incorporated these features.

psxndc
Sep 5, 2007, 01:27 PM
Well, seeing as how we have all these software options coming out left and right that do the same thing, I don't see how this affects ANYONE here.

Only the ignorant should be offended by this, since they're the only one who'll pay for it. Smart folks have no reason to complain.

So who here wants to be the first to complain? :D

Me. People like myself that want to do the right thing(tm) are annoyed/offended by it. It has nothing to do with being smart or not, it's about not just doing an end-run around the system because it suits you.

I vote with my wallet. I won't be buying them and I guess I'll just be doing without.

ibwb
Sep 5, 2007, 01:28 PM
The cell companies are ripoff artists when it comes to ringtones. Just because Apple is cheaper doesn't make them any more right.

And I've already GOT my music. Fair use doctrine tells me I should not have to pay to snip a piece of it into a ringtone.

Apple blew this one big time, boys and girls. iTunes should let you snip any song you already own into a ringtone, free of charge.

Argh... why can't people see below the surface with this? Apple doesn't own the songs! Apple has to negotiate ringtone rights from the music industry just like everyone else!

This is so obvious... why anyone would think that Apple has some mystical power to pull free ringtones out of the greedy bastards running the music industry is beyond me.

Evangelion
Sep 5, 2007, 01:29 PM
The cell companies are ripoff artists when it comes to ringtones. Just because Apple is cheaper doesn't make them any more right.

And I've already GOT my music. Fair use doctrine tells me I should not have to pay to snip a piece of it into a ringtone.

Apple blew this one big time, boys and girls. iTunes should let you snip any song you already own into a ringtone, free of charge.

you are paying extra because royalty-rights are a lot higher for ringtones than they are for normal songs. so either apple charges extra for the ringtones, or they sell them at a loss

tribulation
Sep 5, 2007, 01:30 PM
Jo...jo....jo....joke?
Is there really any need for a discussion on this pathetic "service"?

CJD2112
Sep 5, 2007, 01:32 PM
Actually, only Verizon charges for that service. If you have a bluetooth enabled phone through Cingular or T-mobile, you can make your own free ring tones and download them to your phone. Verizon was sued for falsely advertising the Motorola v710 as fully enabled bluetooth even though the company crippled the ObEx on the phones to force customers to pay for their "Get It Now" service (one of the reasons I left Verizon). They were sued and lost, having to pony up big bucks and insisted it was their business tactic and their right.

I don't agree with .99 additional for ringtones, even though it is just cents. It's the principle. Personally, I'll keep using iFuntastic 3.0.3 for ring tones and hacking. :p

ts1973
Sep 5, 2007, 01:33 PM
Argh... why can't people see below the surface with this? Apple doesn't own the songs! Apple has to negotiate ringtone rights from the music industry just like everyone else!

This is so obvious... why anyone would think that Apple has some mystical power to pull free ringtones out of the greedy bastards running the music industry is beyond me.

Spot on.

But on the other hand : every other smart (or less smart) phone can use songs as a ringtone, Apple chooses not to allow this.

fastbite
Sep 5, 2007, 01:34 PM
Apple can not take a price out of his sleeve, as some other posters indicate they need to negociate. And regardless the price for ring-tones seems Ok to me, I mean, how many ring tones do you need anyway?

johnmcboston
Sep 5, 2007, 01:35 PM
Argh... why can't people see below the surface with this? Apple doesn't own the songs! Apple has to negotiate ringtone rights from the music industry just like everyone else!

That would be true if I didn't own the song already. So you're saying it makes sense I pay $15 for a CD, then have to pay another dollar for any song from the CD I paid for to use as a ringtone on my own phone???

damienvfx
Sep 5, 2007, 01:35 PM
No, because I wanted a smartphone with media capabilities. If you purchased your iPhone just for the iPod portion of it, then you're a shmuck because of course Apple was going to release a new iPod that incorporated these features.

Oh I see, you wanted to pay $200 more. I should have known, and thanks for the name calling.

ibwb
Sep 5, 2007, 01:38 PM
Spot on.

But on the other hand : every other smart (or less smart) phone can use songs as a ringtone, Apple chooses not to allow this.

Fair enough, but those phones are made by companies that don't participate in the music industry at all. Free ringtones from Apple would mean no iTunes Store.

mdriftmeyer
Sep 5, 2007, 01:38 PM
You haven't even tried the new iTunes and you presume it doesn't work with your pre-existing music.

Doctor Q
Sep 5, 2007, 01:38 PM
Although you'd think a 30-second subset of a song shouldn't cost as much as the full song, you're not likely to buy a huge number of ringtones compared with your volume of music purchases, so the price isn't going to make a huge difference for most people. Even at these prices, I doubt many artists are going to get wildly rich off iPhone ringtone sales.

mkrishnan
Sep 5, 2007, 01:39 PM
I don't agree with .99 additional for ringtones, even though it is just cents. It's the principle. Personally, I'll keep using iFuntastic 3.0.3 for ring tones and hacking. :p

Once you learn how to make ringtones with a basic sound editor, it's more fun to do it yourself anyways. They don't have to be 30 seconds long. You can pick just the part you like. You can make the fades just how you like. And it still takes about 3-5 minutes at most to make one. :)

Small White Car
Sep 5, 2007, 01:39 PM
Me. People like myself that want to do the right thing(tm) are annoyed/offended by it.

Downloading music from P2P - WRONG
Downloading movies from torrents - WRONG
Copying my DVDs to give to friends - WRONG

Copying my DVD I bought to my iPod - NOT WRONG
Using a song I bought as a ringtone - NOT WRONG

--
Guess what? All 5 of those things are against the law. But only 3 of them are actually wrong.

I'll do the 2 up there that are illegal but that I don't consider wrong. For you see, I also "do the right thing."

Don't use terms like "do the right thing" when talking about something that has nothing to do with right or wrong. It's against the law, but that has nothing to do with morals.

ibwb
Sep 5, 2007, 01:40 PM
That would be true if I didn't own the song already. So you're saying it makes sense I pay $15 for a CD, then have to pay another dollar for any song from the CD I paid for to use as a ringtone on my own phone???

Nobody is saying it makes sense. It's the stupidest thing ever! It's just not Apple's fault; they are stuck in this position by the fact that they work with the music industry. So blame the record companies, write your senator, whatever... but it doesn't make sense to go on a diatribe about how Apple is ripping you off. It's just blaming the wrong party is all.

Porco
Sep 5, 2007, 01:40 PM
I think this (charging for ringtones exclusively) is the most scummy thing Apple have done since they told everyone with an apple email address they had to buy .mac or lose it.

I'm sure hacks will take care of the issue itself, I just really think it screams corporate greed in a really horrible way. I like that for the most part Apple can take a very proud position in terms of fairness for their customers, but this stuff is as horrible as DRM, there is NO reason the iPhone couldn't use existing tracks as ringtones other than GREED.

Bad, bad move.

mdriftmeyer
Sep 5, 2007, 01:40 PM
Spot on.

But on the other hand : every other smart (or less smart) phone can use songs as a ringtone, Apple chooses not to allow this.

AT&T is the telco for the U.S. The telcos have a cross pollination contract with Apple. They've traditionally made a ton off of Ringtones.

With these price drops on iPhone AT&T's ROI is increased clients.

How Apple decides to leverage Ringtones may or may not have been a clause with AT&T who like the rest of the Telco industry made a fortune off of this market segment.

bousozoku
Sep 5, 2007, 01:50 PM
Maybe, because they can't afford Final Cut? :D

There are cheaper ringtone makers, though. I find songs made into ringtones annoying because the ringtones generally last longer than the conversations.

miketcool
Sep 5, 2007, 01:53 PM
What if it is content that I own the copyright too? My own content?

Then using a 3rd party app to make it into a ringtone wont get you in any legal trouble.

I belive the technicallity that the FCC and cell companies have when it comes to ringtone copyrights falls on the fact that you are broadcasting a protected material everytime you get a call. Technically, they could sue you for playing music too loud from your car because they could consider it duplication, or broadcasting without proper license. I'm not saying I'm ok with this, its really lame, but they have that law on us.

For me, MIDI ringtones are still the $#1T!

CJD2112
Sep 5, 2007, 01:54 PM
Are there any other iPhone owners out there who are annoyed with Apple right now? Some of us just bought a $600 phone 2 MONTHS ago, and they just dropped the price, and released a new product that is almost the same thing without having to deal with at&t.

Thanks Apple. Remind me never to buy any new device you come out with for a couple of months ever again.

I'm pissed. I didn't know there was a price drop until my friend informed me, I thought the keynote was over. I can't believe the iPhone is $200 cheaper. I know, a price drop may have been inevitable, but a $200 price drop this soon, AND discontinuing the 4 BG model? I'm disappointed...

...and don't get me started on the .99 additional price for a 30 second ringtone.

SMM
Sep 5, 2007, 01:56 PM
I agree 100%. It amazes me how forgiving most people on here are of Apple. If that was Bill Gates announcing that, as opposed to Steve Jobs, there would be lawsuits filed already.

We own it, we should be able to use it.

I leave the whining to the Newbie trollers. Amazing how many 10 posters come out of the woodwork right after Apple makes an announcement.

Porco
Sep 5, 2007, 01:56 PM
Fair enough, but those phones are made by companies that don't participate in the music industry at all.

My phone, made by SONYEricsson will play any MP3 or [unprotected] AAC file as a ringtone.

So... I buy an MP3 or make one in Garageband (not theretical - I have some of my own personally composed music on my phone), I can use it as a ringtone on my K800, I can't on an iPhone.

Fair? No.

That's SONYEricsson, Sony, who are very much participating in the music industry.

milo
Sep 5, 2007, 01:58 PM
.99 + .99 = Failure for Apple

Considering most ringtones are at least that much, what makes you think the decision was apple's? Do you really think the record companies would just let apple give away ringtone use for no extra charge?

What other companies sell ringtones plus "mp3" version for $1.99? Are there any?

evilgEEk
Sep 5, 2007, 01:59 PM
I leave the whining to the Newbie trollers. Amazing how many 10 posters come out of the woodwork right after Apple makes an announcement.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I get so tired of these people that whine and complain about the lack of a service and then when the service is finally announced they simply whine and complain some more.

Can't have your cake and eat it too, people.

izzle22
Sep 5, 2007, 02:02 PM
Well I knew it was coming but I didn't think it would be this quick. I guess my only saving grace was that I bought the 4gb. I'm not sorry I knew it would happen, I do this all the time.

Porco
Sep 5, 2007, 02:03 PM
Couldn't have said it better myself.

I get so tired of these people that whine and complain about the lack of a service and then when the service is finally announced they simply whine and complain some more.

Can't have your cake and eat it too, people.

I have no problem with the 'service' (if people really want to spend money on what they've already bought), it's blocking users using their own purchases and music as ringtones that I object to. It's profiteering by means of an artificial technical limitation in the software of the iPhone.

We should be able to make ringtones for nothing out of tracks we've purchased, all you're doing is playing part of a track you've bought (or made yourself).

JimmyDreams
Sep 5, 2007, 02:04 PM
You can, just not through iTunes's service.

It's amazing to me that people are under the impression that everything is coming to them for the low, low cost of nothing.

This is how capitalism works, boys and girls. Apple offers a service, you either find it worth the price or you don't. One thing I hate about the post-Napster era is how so many folks think anything they want should be free.

Please explain to me how paying for something and then being told I'll have to pay AGAIN for the same thing is 'thinking it should be free'?

Thanks, but no thanks, Steve. I'll live with my ringtones as they are on my phone that is now worth $200 less because you missed your target market.

Not disgruntled, but now as happy as I could be.

JimmyD
:apple::apple::apple::apple:

CJD2112
Sep 5, 2007, 02:04 PM
Argh... why can't people see below the surface with this? Apple doesn't own the songs! Apple has to negotiate ringtone rights from the music industry just like everyone else!

This is so obvious... why anyone would think that Apple has some mystical power to pull free ringtones out of the greedy bastards running the music industry is beyond me.

Actually, if you make a CD through iTunes of purchased DRM music, then copy the track to your Mac, you can rip out the copy protection and make your own ring tone. I've NEVER paid for a ring tone, I always uploaded them through Bluetooth ObEx onto my RAZR, and now using iFuntastic to my iPhone. I refuse to pay more money into the already bloated pockets of Hollyweird exec's and the industry.

So, if I buy a CD, import it to iTunes, can I make a free ring tone with the songs I own or do I still have to buy them exclusively through iTunes?

arkmannj
Sep 5, 2007, 02:06 PM
and I was hoping that there would be a way to use tunes I/a friend created in garageband or soundtrack-pro as a ring-tone. very disappointed in how this turned out.
but hey, I am excited about the iTunes wireless store. does anyone know if it will only work for music; or can I use it to pickup a tv episode too ?

O and A
Sep 5, 2007, 02:06 PM
This is not a failure for apple or a bad idea at all. It makes perfect sense.

At the end of the day the power users will make their own ringtones and use whatever they want. The everday users will just pay 99 cents more becuase its just easy that way.

This doesn't change anything except make it easier for the simple folk and increase apples bottom line.

iToner for me, ITMS for non power users.

snowboarder
Sep 5, 2007, 02:11 PM
So are they also gonna sell some regular, high quality ringtones
or just pieces of songs?

happylittlemac
Sep 5, 2007, 02:14 PM
I see the Apple Apologists are coming out in force again.

photobiker
Sep 5, 2007, 02:15 PM
I think the only ringtone I'm going to buy is a 30 seconds chunk of blank and I'll assign this "Silent" track to people I don't like.

With Visual Voice Mail, I already didn't have to listen to their messages - but now with custom ringtones, I won't even have to hear them call me anymore.

Thank you Apple for bringing me peace!

mkrishnan
Sep 5, 2007, 02:17 PM
Actually, if you make a CD through iTunes of purchased DRM music

...

So, if I buy a CD, import it to iTunes, can I make a free ring tone with the songs I own or do I still have to buy them exclusively through iTunes?

I have done the former too (actually just recently, and it was convenient, since I wanted a physical copy of this for my car anyway). For a lot of editing software, you don't even have to rip the burnt CD. You can import the track directly (it pretends to be AIFF), crop / fade / etc it, and then save an MP3 or a WAV and use Max to convert it.

I think if you use AudioHijack, you can even do it without bothering with the CD. You can probably also repeatedly re-use a CDRW to do this.

For the latter, I haven't had a chance to see the new iTunes yet, but it's sounding like iTunes will only upload purchased ringtones for you, meaning you'll need to continue to use the third-party app.

rayward
Sep 5, 2007, 02:24 PM
I doesn't look like you can use the new ringtone maker to make ringtones out of your own music. Seems to be only for stuff purchased through iTunes. OK, but...

The website also says that you can use a ringtone for an alarm. Does this mean that tones put into the ringtone list via third-party "hacks" will also be available for alarms? This is new functionality if it's the case.

Peace
Sep 5, 2007, 02:30 PM
The new iTunes isn't out yet.

Anonymous Freak
Sep 5, 2007, 02:32 PM
I agree 100%. It amazes me how forgiving most people on here are of Apple. If that was Bill Gates announcing that, as opposed to Steve Jobs, there would be lawsuits filed already.

We own it, we should be able to use it.

Has even one person been an apologist for this? I don't think so.

As for lawsuits, Apple already has multiple lawsuits against them over iPod and iPhone issues.

As far as suing over this, though, that's ridiculous. Nobody would sue over being charged for ringtones (well some people would sue over being looked at funny, but you know what I mean,) but that doesn't mean we have to be happy about it.

I fully agree, iToner is looking much nicer now. (I'm sure we'll have a freeware option soon, too.)

mongoos150
Sep 5, 2007, 02:36 PM
Yes there are 3rd party solutions, but it's completely lame we can't use our own .mp3 files to create ringtones through the iTunes interface. If we've purchased it on our own, via CD (or however you've obtained the file), it is your file. iFuntastic will be remaining with me.

/dev/toaster
Sep 5, 2007, 02:38 PM
Like I said before, this really pisses me off ... its pure greed. I will not pay 1 cent for this, I will do it using the previous methods.

Mgkwho
Sep 5, 2007, 02:43 PM
I think the pricing is dead on. Yes, we all wish we could use our own music easily and legitimately. I'm sure Apple does too. But you can be sure the record companies don't. So this isn't as nazi-ish as it could have been.

Plus, how many ringtones is one going to have? A few? Calm down, babies!

-=|Mgkwho

QuarterSwede
Sep 5, 2007, 02:43 PM
You do know at $1.98 thats cheaper then most other cell companies charge for ringtones.
And doing it yourself for free is better. Takes me no time to open up Audacity and make a dang good sounding loop ... or just 30 sec sound clip (even though the phone never rings that long).

Peace
Sep 5, 2007, 02:45 PM
I have a friend that has an AT&T cell phone.It's not an iPhone.He pays something like $2.99 for ringtones.

mrrydogg
Sep 5, 2007, 02:50 PM
Quote from the new iTunes Ringtone site.

"You and iTunes are old friends by now. Which means getting your ringtone on your iPhone is easy. Choose a purchased song in your library marked with the ringtone symbol. Using the ringtone editor, take any portion of the song — up to 30 seconds — then set fade in, fade out, and playback delay. Once you've created the perfect ringtone, click to buy it for only 99¢. Then sync your iPhone and wait for the calls to rock ’n’ roll in."

It sounds like you will be able to use any purchased songs already in your library as ringtones as long as they have the "bell" symbol next to them (one of the "approved" songs for ring tones). I would then assume that you would only be paying the .99 cents to create the ringtone, since you already own the song.

Am I right?

It would make sense that Apple would eventually allow you to create a ringtone from any of the songs in your library for the same fee eventually. Also, I would think that Apple will start selling their own custom ringtones for .49 or .99 cents soon.

iToner works incredibly anyway, until Apple gets the pricing right.

slughead
Sep 5, 2007, 02:52 PM
Wow OK. Here's my summary of today:

- Ringtones are stupidly overpriced, Apple is gonna make a mint off of iPhone owners, but I bet potential iPhone customers will see Apple's trend towards devouring their money and shy away to some extent.
- iPod Touch is sort of cool but ultimately lame in that it has no cellular data access (for obvious reasons). If it wants to be a PDA, it should know that PDAs have all have internet now.
- Apple said that Safari for ipod/iphone is 'the most advanced browser EVAR'.. yeah, except other pocket PCs for less money have ADOBE FLASH PLUGIN. (and cell access..) Thanks for playing, Apple.
- iPod shuffle 'update' is just new colors, not even worth a news item here but oh well. Still a great product at an okay price, but they should probably upgrade it someday (how about waterproofing?)
- iPod classic is awesome now with 160GB
- iPod Nano is the real winner here today, that's just amazing, especially at the same price point.

I hope Apple fixes its deal with NBC. Those are the only shows I bought on iTMS

dukeblue91
Sep 5, 2007, 02:54 PM
I have a friend that has an AT&T cell phone.It's not an iPhone.He pays something like $2.99 for ringtones.

Sorry but he is an idiot if he pays that much for a lousy ringtone :eek:

dukeblue91
Sep 5, 2007, 02:57 PM
Wow OK. Here's my summary of today:

- Ringtones are stupidly overpriced, Apple is gonna make a mint off of iPhone owners, but I bet potential iPhone customers will see Apple's trend towards devouring their money and shy away to some extent.
- iPod Touch is sort of cool but ultimately lame in that it has no cellular data access (for obvious reasons). If it wants to be a PDA, it should know that PDAs have all have internet now.
- Apple said that Safari for ipod/iphone is 'the most advanced browser EVAR'.. yeah, except other pocket PCs for less money have ADOBE FLASH PLUGIN. (and cell access..) Thanks for playing, Apple.
- iPod shuffle 'update' is just new colors, not even worth a news item here but oh well. Still a great product at an okay price, but they should probably upgrade it someday (how about waterproofing?)
- iPod classic is awesome now with 160GB
- iPod Nano is the real winner here today, that's just amazing, especially at the same price point.

I hope Apple fixes its deal with NBC. Those are the only shows I bought on iTMS

Lets not forget the $200 price drop on the 8 gig iPhone :mad:

germ war
Sep 5, 2007, 03:04 PM
Since this service doesn't really cost Apple anything, and they cut the price of the iPhone by 1/3, I'll take 100 free ringtones as an early adopter, please. Thanks in advance.

Porco
Sep 5, 2007, 03:07 PM
I think I'm going to start a company that charges people every time they quote a line from a book they bought. Even their own writing! It only seems fair. It's how capitalism works. :rolleyes:

And everyone saying this isn't Apple's fault is wrong I think - it's entirely up to them whether the iPhone plays any music files on it when triggered by an incoming call. They're doing it for greed, it's simple. iTunes already has the option to play files from any set point and to stop at any point, add a fade-in or out if you like, the iPhone is perfectly capable of playing back 30 second portions of music tracks already, if they didn't prevent it.

Remember what Steve Jobs said when asked about ringtones a while back?

""Will we be able to assign ipod-playable songs to ringtones?” –John Markoff asked this during our interview, and Mr. Jobs said it’s not been decided yet."

I guess they decided then.

chillywilly
Sep 5, 2007, 03:10 PM
I'm not an iPhone user, but this was the worst part of today's announcements.

I understand that ringstones can be 99 cents. And I know that some carriers like Sprint can sell both the song and the ringtone of the same song, but Apple just screwed the pooch on this one.

If AT&T was behind this, I could understand the charging extra. Apple would have made a huge praise with iPhone users. I don't see this going anywhere except (eventually) free.

drater
Sep 5, 2007, 03:11 PM
why don't you guys use itoner? its 15 bucks and 30 days free for a trial. put all the songs or mp3s on it you want. Love that program, and there is no hacking required

I'm not an iPhone user, but this was the worst part of today's announcements.

I understand that ringstones can be 99 cents. And I know that some carriers like Sprint can sell both the song and the ringtone of the same song, but Apple just screwed the pooch on this one.

If AT&T was behind this, I could understand the charging extra. Apple would have made a huge praise with iPhone users. I don't see this going anywhere except (eventually) free.

Apple was in contact with the record companies about this. why do you people think only 500k songs out of 6million can be used? Its them, not apple. but to not offer it at all would be a disgrace. what I think they should have done is open up the phone completely to just choose like on other phones. but this part could have been an ATT thing.

chillywilly
Sep 5, 2007, 03:20 PM
Apple was in contact with the record companies about this. why do you people think only 500k songs out of 6million can be used? Its them, not apple. but to not offer it at all would be a disgrace. what I think they should have done is open up the phone completely to just choose like on other phones. but this part could have been an ATT thing.
I forgot about that point when I posted my response. But there are all sorts of tools out there to make your own ringtones out of MP3 files.

I see the connection with Apple and the record industry, but am still bummed about the extra cost.

mrrydogg
Sep 5, 2007, 03:23 PM
- Ringtones are stupidly overpriced, Apple is gonna make a mint off of iPhone owners, but I bet potential iPhone customers will see Apple's trend towards devouring their money and shy away to some extent.
- iPod Touch is sort of cool but ultimately lame in that it has no cellular data access (for obvious reasons). If it wants to be a PDA, it should know that PDAs have all have internet now.


What are you talking about? Shy away from the iPhone?? Yeah, I bet that since they just dropped it $200 that is gonna scare away everyone. I think your placing a little too much importance on ringtones here.

Oh and the iPod Touch isn't trying to be a PDA. Where did you come up with that? If it had access to cell networks it would be called the iPhone. As it is now, its a sick iPod. I will wait though to see an increase in storage capacity....I am guessing around Christmas time!

drater
Sep 5, 2007, 03:23 PM
I forgot about that point when I posted my response. But there are all sorts of tools out there to make your own ringtones out of MP3 files.

I see the connection with Apple and the record industry, but am still bummed about the extra cost.

oh i agree with you, that's why it would have been prefered if they just opened up all mp3s like other phones, but I'm sure, cause they are a music STORE as well, that the music industries would want to get their greedy hands on the profit some how. their a dying industry...so they want everything they can get.

mrrydogg
Sep 5, 2007, 03:25 PM
why don't you guys use itoner? its 15 bucks and 30 days free for a trial. put all the songs or mp3s on it you want. Love that program, and there is no hacking required

iToner is AWESOME and SEAMLESS!!!

Mac and PC compatible and no hacks like the hacktastic iFuntastic!

jblakeh1
Sep 5, 2007, 03:26 PM
The whole idea of paying to use my own music is insulting, but Apple has to pick their battles. This is exactly the kind of compromise that lost NBC - I am guessing that additional fee is going to AT&T, the record companies, etc.

GTiPhone
Sep 5, 2007, 03:30 PM
Absolutely anyone that uses this new feature is 100% a total and complete moron.

drater
Sep 5, 2007, 03:31 PM
iToner is AWESOME and SEAMLESS!!!

Mac and PC compatible and no hacks like the hacktastic iFuntastic!

yup, putting songs on now as we speak. haven't upgraded yet, but probably when it ends. i'll wait till apple sort their **** out, or just keep using this.

so i'm putting about 20 songs on for free right now..that's 20 bucks with apple

Master Atrus
Sep 5, 2007, 03:34 PM
All I have to say is that the President of Ambrosia software has got to be enjoying this decision by Apple imensly. Now all of a sudden iToner (though I don't care for the name) is the best mac product out there for ring tones.

Thank you Ambrosia!!!!!

drater
Sep 5, 2007, 03:36 PM
All I have to say is that the President of Ambrosia software has got to be enjoying this decision by Apple imensly. Now all of a sudden iToner (though I don't care for the name) is the best mac product out there for ring tones.

Thank you Ambrosia!!!!!

hahaha, yup, thanks Moki! Now I can listen to my Beatles and hear them as a ringtone!

dr_lha
Sep 5, 2007, 03:38 PM
Since this service doesn't really cost Apple anything
You can bet that a significant proportion of the 99cents goes to the record company.

timothyjay2004
Sep 5, 2007, 03:40 PM
People really need to calm down here. Seriously. I have verizon and if you want a real music ringtone, you have to pay $2.99 for it. If you want a polyphonic ringtone, you pay $1.99. Verizon does not decide on the price of the ringtones. Apple is only charging $1.98 for a real music ringtone.. that is cheap compared to what ALL other carriers charge. Apple also does not have much say on the ringtones. Lets face it, yes you did buy the song, but technically, the music companies still own the song through digital rights management and copyright laws. That's the truth here. Apple legally can't just let you make free ringtones with the music, they'd be sued endlessly by the record companies. They really didn't have a choice here, so quit flaming Apple here. They could have charged $2.99 like every other carrier does, but they didn't. I don't agree with the record companies. I'm on the page of, "It's my music I'll do what I want with it", but that isn't the way the way the law reads. If/When the law changes, you will see many changes occur, free ringtones using purchased music from Apple would probably be one of them. Once again, Apple, nor any other wireless carrier has much say in what they can charge.

And also, look at it this way. I have a song that I bought on iTunes that I really really like. It cost me $0.99. I want to buy that song as a ringtone from Verizon, it will cost me $2.99. In the end I have spent $3.98. Apple is giving you both for only $1.98. That's $2 less per song/ringtone combination. There seriously isn't much room to be bitc*ing here. If you don't want to pay it, make your own and get over it.

CaptSaltyJack
Sep 5, 2007, 03:43 PM
I smell a class action lawsuit. This is a clear violation of Fair Use. DRM is bad enough. But THIS? Charging 100% of the song price to use a 30 second clip of the very song YOU JUST PURCHASED???

Criminal.

arkmannj
Sep 5, 2007, 03:47 PM
I have a question.
Does the 3rd party solutions for custom ring-tones, add to the list of ring-tones or do they "replace" current ring-tones on the phone ?

the reason I ask, is I bet the new .99 features adds to the list, if iTunes can, then I imagine 3rd party apps/hacks will be able exploit that functionality and to do it soon also.

drater
Sep 5, 2007, 03:49 PM
I have a question.
Does the 3rd party solutions for custom ring-tones, add to the list of ring-tones or do they "replace" current ring-tones on the phone ?

the reason I ask, is I bet the new .99 features adds to the list, if iTunes can, then I imagine 3rd party apps/hacks will be able exploit that functionality and to do it soon also.

they add to the list, they take nothing away

timothyjay2004
Sep 5, 2007, 03:50 PM
I smell a class action lawsuit. This is a clear violation of Fair Use. DRM is bad enough. But THIS? Charging 100% of the song price to use a 30 second clip of the very song YOU JUST PURCHASED???

Criminal.

No it's not. Fair use only applies to the song being used on a devise, not a ringtone made from that song. Sorry, but you are wrong here my friend.

arkmannj
Sep 5, 2007, 03:57 PM
they add to the list, they take nothing away

Thanks...I just might have to jump on the bandwagon then

CWallace
Sep 5, 2007, 04:04 PM
I look at it this way:

If I want convenience, I use the "service" of iTunes to make ringtones for me and pay them $0.99USD for that service.

If I don't mind spending some time, I buy a music editor to create my own ringtones and then buy iToner to get them onto my iPhone.

I have the technical expertise and free-time to do the latter (especially since I like to use anime tunes as ringtones since they're more likely to be "unique"), so it's far more cost-effective for me to buy the product.

But if I didn't - or only wanted a handful of ringtones - then the iTunes service would likely be a more cost-effective options.

twoodcc
Sep 5, 2007, 04:04 PM
i think the pricing seems fair, but i'm just gonna use the ringtones already on it

Hattig
Sep 5, 2007, 04:15 PM
Guess Steve Jobs is trying to find ways to get closer to Bill Gates income? .99 + .99 = Failure for Apple

I think most of the people here commenting simply don't understand how the ring tone industry works, nor how popular it is, nor the current cost of ringtones.

This will be a major success, it's cheap (for ringtones), high quality (for ringtones) and you get to select the section of ringtone you want.

Remember people have been buying ringtones that were simple monophonic MIDI files, then polyphonic MIDI files, and then low-bitrate MP3 files, for years, and paying up to 3 apiece for them.

It sucks if you're not willing to pay for something you know you can do in Audacity in a few minutes, apart from the hassle in getting it onto the iPhone. I'm totally with you here. But you can't claim it will be a failure at all. The price is good for the people that need dozens of ringtones, and to be honest it's cheap enough if you just want a single ringtone. And you won't have to do it anew for each new iPhone you buy over the next few years.

soundsgoodtome
Sep 5, 2007, 04:36 PM
The article begins, "Apple released a new version of iTunes at the "Beat Goes On" special media event today."

That is incorrect. Apple *announced* a new version. It has not been released. Sure, it's coming, this evening, but if you're going to report news, you should do it accurately.

slffl
Sep 5, 2007, 04:47 PM
Absolutely anyone that uses this new feature is 100% a total and complete moron.

Wow, so I guess the millions of people who buy ringtones on their phones are morons.

Ever heard of if you don't like it don't buy it?

Random Ping
Sep 5, 2007, 04:48 PM
I can do it for free and make my own with final cut and transfer it for free with bluetooth? Why are people still buying ringtones?

Umm, how much was Final Cut?

slffl
Sep 5, 2007, 04:48 PM
I don't care about songs for ringtones. How about just some regular ringtones and increase the volume on the speaker?

Porco
Sep 5, 2007, 04:51 PM
No it's not. Fair use only applies to the song being used on a devise, not a ringtone made from that song. Sorry, but you are wrong here my friend.

But just what is a ringtone?! In this case, it's [a copy of] an edited portion of exactly the same file in question. The only difference is it plays when someone calls you instead of you tapping the screen to play it. The software preventing you from playing files already on the device is probably more complicated than it would be to allow you to do so.

How is it "fair" to charge you 100% again simply for having a portion of the exact same file play when someone calls you? Or for preventing you from using your own musical compositions which aren't available on the iTunes Store in any form?

I think it's criminal ethically, even if not legally. I think everyone who disagrees with it should send feedback to Apple on the subject and let them know it's taking a liberty.

Random Ping
Sep 5, 2007, 04:53 PM
And I've already GOT my music. Fair use doctrine tells me I should not have to pay to snip a piece of it into a ringtone.

Usually a provider needs to get permission from the rights holder to use the song in a significantly different way than what has already been granted. Since only a percentage of the songs are available for this, I suspect this is the case with Apple.

For each song that Apple wants to let you turn into a ringtone, Apple probably has to get special permission from the owners and then pay them each time someone does this.

Porco
Sep 5, 2007, 04:57 PM
Wow, so I guess the millions of people who buy ringtones on their phones are morons.

Ever heard of if you don't like it don't buy it?

The point is we've already bought it, and now they want to charge us for it again!

I've always thought charging for non-original ringtones (that is, portions of music tracks etc) is a terrible form of immoral double-dipping for the music industry, but if you at least get the option to put your own files on as ringtones it's a free choice.

It isn't a free choice when Apple or other phone manufacturers artificially prevent you from triggering your own legitimate music files upon receiving calls. This is not about copyright infringement or the relative price of ringtones, it's about crippling an aspect of the device purely to profit from the feature that crippling disables.

Imagine if they sold the iPhone with a colour screen that only displayed in greyscale unless you paid double your monthly contract charge to restore colour?! It's not really any different to that in my mind.

Camui
Sep 5, 2007, 04:58 PM
Has anyone downloaded 7.4 yet?

Porco
Sep 5, 2007, 04:59 PM
Usually a provider needs to get permission from the rights holder to use the song in a significantly different way than what has already been granted. Since only a percentage of the songs are available for this, I suspect this is the case with Apple.

For each song that Apple wants to let you turn into a ringtone, Apple probably has to get special permission from the owners and then pay them each time someone does this.

How can I play any MP3 or [unprotected]AAC on my SonyEricsson phone then?

PupnTaco
Sep 5, 2007, 05:00 PM
Has anyone downloaded 7.4 yet?

I'm guessing "no" since it hasn't been released yet.

Loge
Sep 5, 2007, 05:02 PM
The whole idea of paying to use my own music is insulting, but Apple has to pick their battles. This is exactly the kind of compromise that lost NBC - I am guessing that additional fee is going to AT&T, the record companies, etc.

Hmm. $4.99 for a TV show starts to look quite reasonable compared to paying $0.99 for 30 seconds of music you already have.

Random Ping
Sep 5, 2007, 05:02 PM
That would be true if I didn't own the song already.

You don't "own the song". You "own the right" to play the song under certain conditions.

For example, when you "buy a song" from iTunes, you only have the right to play it on a maximum of 5 computers at any one time. Apple has fought fairly hard to extend these rights for the consumer as much as possible, and the media holders have fought it every step of the way.

For example, NBC is making its content available on Amazon's Unbox service this year instead of iTunes, but you have far fewer rights on how you can watch it.

Random Ping
Sep 5, 2007, 05:11 PM
Please explain to me how paying for something and then being told I'll have to pay AGAIN for the same thing is 'thinking it should be free'?

Don't forget, you are already limited with what you can do with the song. For example, you cannot play it on more than 5 different computers at one time (which is a problem for me, especially when I forget to unregister one of the old ones).

The whole explosion of digital media and digital devices that can play the digital media is completely changing the way media companies think ("think" being a generous term here). I personally think the major media companies are SUPER STUPID and are in the process of destroying themselves, but there it is.

nimbuscloud
Sep 5, 2007, 05:14 PM
You guys can really complain.

The thing is, if I have a song that I like, I can pay $.99 to make a ringtone with it. Not bad.

Ask Verizon can you do that. Hell, they charge $2.49 for JUST a ringtone. Can't edit it or do anything with it.

Please remember. Apple is a FOR PROFIT company, they aren't going to just GIVE away a billion dollar industry like the ringtone biz for nothing. What are you guys smoking?

The next thing ya know, you'll be griping because the PowerBook G5 wasn't announced...

:apple:

javaGuru
Sep 5, 2007, 05:15 PM
Are there any other iPhone owners out there who are annoyed with Apple right now? Some of us just bought a $600 phone 2 MONTHS ago, and they just dropped the price, and released a new product that is almost the same thing without having to deal with at&t.

Thanks Apple. Remind me never to buy any new device you come out with for a couple of months ever again.

I'm very dissapointed in this. I would have expected a price drop but not so soon. It's only been a little over 2 months. But, with that being said i'm still glad that I purchased it. I don't have any regrets. Maybe a retroactive rebate should be in the works... :)

Random Ping
Sep 5, 2007, 05:16 PM
$4.99 for a TV show starts to look quite reasonable compared to paying $0.99 for 30 seconds of music you already have.

The problem with a TV show (or movie for that matter), is that you will probably only watch it once (or a very small number of times). Music and ringtones, on the other hand, are played over and over again.

That is why (IMHO) music is a "purchase" business, while TV and Movies should be a "subscription" business.

javaGuru
Sep 5, 2007, 05:19 PM
You guys can really complain.

The thing is, if I have a song that I like, I can pay $.99 to make a ringtone with it. Not bad.

Ask Verizon can you do that. Hell, they charge $2.49 for JUST a ringtone. Can't edit it or do anything with it.

Please remember. Apple is a FOR PROFIT company, they aren't going to just GIVE away a billion dollar industry like the ringtone biz for nothing. What are you guys smoking?

The next thing ya know, you'll be griping because the PowerBook G5 wasn't announced...

:apple:

I agree with this. Most companies will charge a lot more than .99 and you have to pay for a ringtone that is already created. Atleast we get to create our own. Of coarse, i'm sure there will be a hack for this in the near furture like everything else. I will not use this or any other hack but i'm sure this will be the case.

jamespa66
Sep 5, 2007, 05:24 PM
I'll be damned if I'm paying another .99 for a song that I already paid for!

Porco
Sep 5, 2007, 05:27 PM
I just want to say that iTunes already has a the tools to make MP3 and AAC ringtones.

Very good, and nice tutorial. However, as I understand it, once you move that ringtone to the iPhone it will be entirely useless except as a low quality clip of a track you already have, because Apple have crippled the iPhone to only play what they say you can. That's what sucks so much.

Good tutorial for anyone with a phone that does let you play any file as a ringtone though, as things should be.

chillywilly
Sep 5, 2007, 05:29 PM
Nice tutorial post, Fiveos22.

Porco
Sep 5, 2007, 05:34 PM
Please remember. Apple is a FOR PROFIT company, they aren't going to just GIVE away a billion dollar industry like the ringtone biz for nothing. What are you guys smoking?


Perhaps the same stuff as SonyEricsson, the makers of my current phone, which can play any MP3 or [unprotected] AAC files as a ringtone out of the box.

This one issue and the way it makes me feel about Apple's attitude towards their iPhone customers is seriously making me not want to buy an iPhone - so where's the "PROFIT" for them in that, while I keep using my SonyEricsson phone instead?

milo
Sep 5, 2007, 05:37 PM
Wow, so I guess the millions of people who buy ringtones on their phones are morons.

I assume you're being sarcastic...but I would agree with that statement.

How is it "fair" to charge you 100% again simply for having a portion of the exact same file play when someone calls you? Or for preventing you from using your own musical compositions which aren't available on the iTunes Store in any form?

Who ever said life is fair?

When you bought a song on itunes did it say that the purchase included ringtone use? If it didn't, you can't really be upset that they're not letting you have it.

And if you really want to complain, send it to the record companies. I'm sure apple would love to let people just use itunes songs as ringtones but there's no way in hell the record companies would give up that extra income. And only half a million songs are even eligible, the rest are probably record labels who wanted MORE but apple wouldn't give in.

The point is we've already bought it, and now they want to charge us for it again!

You obviously don't understand how intellectual property works. You did NOT buy it, you bought some limited rights to use the music. Those didn't include ringtone use. It sucks, but that's how the record industry chooses to play, and lots of people are willing to pay just for ringtones. If you don't like it, don't buy the song and don't buy the ringtone.

How can I play any MP3 or [unprotected]AAC on my SonyEricsson phone then?

Probably because sony doesn't sell music from any other labels. Do they? If they only sell their own music, they don't have any content provider contracts to worry about. I'm sure Apple could easily allow using any mp3 or AAC as a ringtone, but many labels would probably pull their music from the itunes store if they did.

If you were in apple's shoes, what would YOU do if the record companies all insisted on purchased ringtones only?

Camui
Sep 5, 2007, 05:39 PM
I'm guessing "no" since it hasn't been released yet.

Various news sites, including this one, reported it as being 'released'. Apple's own site says to download the new version in places. That is why I asked if anyone had downloaded 7.4 or not.

CWallace
Sep 5, 2007, 05:46 PM
Perhaps the same stuff as SonyEricsson, the makers of my current phone, which can play any MP3 or [unprotected] AAC files as a ringtone out of the box.

You can do that now. :)

I've had custom ringtones on my iPhone since the day I bought it thanks to iPhoneRingToneMaker for Windows and iToner for Mac. I just take one of my MP3s, edit to size, and then shoot it on over.

Apple is just offering to do all the "grunt work" for you, and wants 99 cents for providing the service each time. But it is certainly not the only way to get custom ringtones on the iPhone.

Too many people seem to not realize that...

scrambledwonder
Sep 5, 2007, 06:08 PM
Okay. Am I the only person on the planet who doesn't want to hear, like, three seconds of some song when somebody calls me? I just want the damn phone to ring. Just ring. No songs. If I want to listen to music, I'll use headphones or speakers.

And am I the only person on the planet who glares at people who have stupid song ring tones? Like their phone goes "UHHHHHHH, Naa naaa naa naaa!" when it rings, or "Welcome to the jungle!" or something and I think, feck, what are you, 13?

mdriftmeyer
Sep 5, 2007, 06:09 PM
Everyone is complaining about not taking any song you own and just create ringtones out of them.

Complain to the Artist/Music Publisher who negotiates with Apple on ringtones.

Is there a way to fake it out that it has an ID tag for Ringtone, yes?

Can't tell until one can download it and check out the plists files and how ringtones are handled via XML.

Porco
Sep 5, 2007, 06:19 PM
You obviously don't understand how intellectual property works. You did NOT buy it, you bought some limited rights to use the music. Those didn't include ringtone use.
[....]


Any tracks I buy from the iTunes Store are subject to the terms I buy them from, I understand that, but that isn't what this is about for me. This is Apple artificially stopping the iPhone from playing the tracks in certain conditions purely to force people who want to play those tracks in those circumstances to pay twice. That just isn't on in my opinion.

Regardless of that, I still can't use my own music (i.e. a Garageband composition or music I own the rights to or music out of copyright). They have nothing to do with that, just like Sony have nothing to do with it on my current phone. I didn't buy it from them. I am not signed to a music label. I own my Intellectual Property, which I understand just fine thank you very much. The iPhone will play the files as an iPod, but not as a phone, because they want me to pay them money to edit down a limited number of tracks. They don't give me the option of playing my own music on my own phone (as a ringtone). How can you defend that? It's crazy.


You can do that now. :)

I've had custom ringtones on my iPhone since the day I bought it thanks to iPhoneRingToneMaker for Windows and iToner for Mac. I just take one of my MP3s, edit to size, and then shoot it on over.

Apple is just offering to do all the "grunt work" for you, and wants 99 cents for providing the service each time. But it is certainly not the only way to get custom ringtones on the iPhone.

Too many people seem to not realize that...

I don't think you really understood my term, "out of the box", by which I mean, without recourse to 3rd party apps, hacks, etc.

It's not just the issue itself, it's the philosophical attitude it represents (i.e. 'let's squeeze more money out of the less tech-savvy consumer because we can by crippling the phone). I find it ethically horrible, it's basically a tax on the technologically less educated. I realise full well there are ways round it, there just shouldn't be anything to get round in the first place, that's my point.

tribulation
Sep 5, 2007, 06:28 PM
That would be true if I didn't own the song already. So you're saying it makes sense I pay $15 for a CD, then have to pay another dollar for any song from the CD I paid for to use as a ringtone on my own phone???

They don't need to negotiate. Offer the service, but also offer an open way for people to add their own ringtones or whatever if they so choose [without hacks]. If you want the super-easy way, pay Apple. If not, do it yourself with whatever audio file you choose.

Heck, my Kyocera 6035 that ran Palm OS about 8 years ago or so allowed me to use any audio file I wanted. Nothing particularly hard or tricky licensing about it. Plain and simple. Apple is getting evermore greedy.

GravityEyes
Sep 5, 2007, 06:35 PM
Okay. Am I the only person on the planet who doesn't want to hear, like, three seconds of some song when somebody calls me? I just want the damn phone to ring. Just ring. No songs. If I want to listen to music, I'll use headphones or speakers.

And am I the only person on the planet who glares at people who have stupid song ring tones? Like their phone goes "UHHHHHHH, Naa naaa naa naaa!" when it rings, or "Welcome to the jungle!" or something and I think, feck, what are you, 13?

AMEN BROTHER !!!

I wish people with stupid ringtones would start on fire as their phone rings :-P

Cleverboy
Sep 5, 2007, 06:42 PM
I know I'll do my part for iToner to crack 1/4 million in sales. I think that's about... what 25,000 paying users? Come on, we can do it. $15 ain't nuthin. I'm sure Ambrosia would appreciate the love.

Other than that, I'll be glad when the short-sighted folks that a.) don't know why it wasn't Apple's decision to charge for ringtones b.) don't know why its great for all iPhone users that Apple lowered the price $200... just get OVER themselves. I get it, your mad. Boo hoo. We've got plenty of options, and faulting Apple for not being a panacea of wonderful fortunes JUST FOR YOU... is very very ignorant.

~ CB

mcs37
Sep 5, 2007, 06:56 PM
Why do I have to pay an extra $0.99 to make a ringtone out of a song I already own?

Porco
Sep 5, 2007, 06:58 PM
I
Other than that, I'll be glad when the short-sighted folks that a.) don't know why it wasn't Apple's decision to charge for ringtones [...]

~ CB

I don't care at all if it was their decision or not to charge for ringtones, but it WAS their decision to cripple the iPhone so as to not allow playback of the user's files AS ringtones. The fact that I can play any MP3 or [unprotected] AAC on my current phone has nothing to do with whether ringtones are on sale anywhere.

What is short-sighted, IMHO, is to accept such flagrant greed without protest, whether it's from Apple, AT&T, the music companies or all three. Because that tells them we are all willing to take it.

aliquis-
Sep 5, 2007, 07:03 PM
Exactly what are one paying for? Except the vendor lockin? Apples is so retarded, and everyone who actually buys this **** are aswell.

You already OWN THE ******* SONG, you should just be able to put it there.
Hate iPods, drm, macs, itunes, istore and whatever.

craigatkinson
Sep 5, 2007, 07:06 PM
I have a feeling that if Steve Jobs could have offered this service for free he would have, but the music companies probably tied his hands. Evidence of this is that not all of the music on iTunes will even be ringtonable. Jobs is probably in a constant struggle with the blood sucking music companies.

shawnce
Sep 5, 2007, 07:10 PM
Why do I have to pay an extra $0.99 to make a ringtone out of a song I already own?

...'cause the cellular network, content providers and Apple (why should Apple leave money on the table) want to make money off of folks desire to have custom ring tones (it is a scarily large market).

This is a feature I likely wont use because I see no need to pay for the privilege but folks should recall that Apple's solution is far better of a deal then you get with any other vendor provided solution for ring tones.

pale9
Sep 5, 2007, 07:17 PM
i said that when they charged for 'enabling' wireless N. and i say it again now. apple, just because you can make money charging for b.s. like this doesnt mean you should. i see dark clouds on my iphone sky.... extra charges when voice dialling (finally) comes around for the iphone...a special button appearing when you enter a mcdonals wifi zone ("try our new organic fruit salad")...

..but maybe i am just having a bad dream....

moldyapples
Sep 5, 2007, 07:20 PM
I used iToner today and not only did it work just great, it worked with a protected iTunes file!

synth3tik
Sep 5, 2007, 07:22 PM
If I was going to pay an extra buck I would expect to be able to do it now and with what ever song I want. I was getting excited about this leading up to the event, but once I got a chance to read about everything I am rather disappointed in the ringtone feature, really it seems to have been a waste of time waiting for this.


*starts up iToner*

iJawn108
Sep 5, 2007, 07:25 PM
Prediction here....


iTunes 8 and Quicktime 8 combined into one application in Leopard.

Rocketman
Sep 5, 2007, 07:39 PM
What if it is content that I own the copyright too? My own content?

Publish a 30 second version of your song?

My iTunes is version 7.3.2, and did not see a reference to what version it will become when released.

As for "turning it on" in a week, iPod Nanos will not be available in the wild until "next weekend", the first potential device to use it. iPhones need a software update to use it which has not been released and won't for a week or so, and iPod touch'es will not arrive until late September.

So really the timing makes sense for bug correction and post-announce feedback by trusted users before deployment "goes live".

Rocketman

pale9
Sep 5, 2007, 07:46 PM
just tried it out, it works GREAT. you even get a free 30 day trial!!!!! just drag and drop your mp3 files onto the itoner dropzone, sync, and the sounds appear in your iphone sounds / ringtones menu!

seashellz
Sep 5, 2007, 07:59 PM
iTunes STILL at 7.3.2
The new version is 7.3.4

Doctor Q
Sep 5, 2007, 08:07 PM
I like ringtones that have only instrumental sections of songs, but some songs don't have 30 seconds between the vocals. So I want Apple to make versions of every song in the iTunes Store with the voice tracks removed. And, while they are at it, they should put markers in every position where you might loop the track (i.e., between beats or measures) and have the sliders snap to those markers when you are picking the selection for a ringtone.

Those features would definitely make my purchases worth the money!

MacGirl1985
Sep 5, 2007, 08:09 PM
You must be new here.

Too funny.
That is the price of being an Early Adopter, folks! :cool:

phytonix
Sep 5, 2007, 08:12 PM
I don't understand. How can they applause in the keynotes when Jobs announced it is $0.99? Guess they are apple employees. I felt so bad about this.

Anyway, I understand the music industry won't allow people to do it for free. Still, 0.99 is too much, 0.19 sounds more reasonable.

Now hackers start!

Doctor Q
Sep 5, 2007, 08:17 PM
That is the price of being an Early Adopter, folks! :cool:
Anyway, I understand the music industry won't allow people to do it for free. Still, 0.99 is too much, 0.19 sounds more reasonable.Putting two and two together, we can see the pattern: Apple will charge 99 cents until all the early adopters buy their ringtones. Then they'll drop the price!

Fiveos22
Sep 5, 2007, 08:19 PM
Okay. Am I the only person on the planet who doesn't want to hear, like, three seconds of some song when somebody calls me? I just want the damn phone to ring. Just ring. No songs. If I want to listen to music, I'll use headphones or speakers.

And am I the only person on the planet who glares at people who have stupid song ring tones? Like their phone goes "UHHHHHHH, Naa naaa naa naaa!" when it rings, or "Welcome to the jungle!" or something and I think, feck, what are you, 13?


I thought the same way until I tried it with some music I liked. It really depends on the song. Arena rock like "Welcome to the Jungle" is a little tacky, but the old time ringer sound is hideous. I am around a teaching hospital all day long, I've gotten used to loud beepers, but can't stand the "standard" cellphone rings.

Some nice songs I've found for ring tones:

"Organ Donor" by DJ Shadow off of the Endtroducing album.
- use the first 20 seconds going from quiet to loud, with vibration

"String Quartet in F, Mvt 2" by Maurice Ravel (most professional recordings)
- use the opening pizzicato for a subtle ringtone, with vibration

"The Saint" by Orbital off of the In Sides Bonus album
- the opening call is an attention getter

One of the more unique ringtones I've heard is a cat meowing. Its not incessant meowing, it is quiet but audible. And no one suspects that there is a phone ringing.


Regardless, the blanket "stupid song ringtones" comment is a little harsh.

CWallace
Sep 5, 2007, 08:24 PM
I don't think you really understood my term, "out of the box", by which I mean, without recourse to 3rd party apps, hacks, etc.

I'll spot you that. With my RAZR, all I did was pair it to my MacBook and sent the files over. So yes, having to buy (even very inexpensive) software to do the same with the iPhone is unfortunate.

It's not just the issue itself, it's the philosophical attitude it represents (i.e. 'let's squeeze more money out of the less tech-savvy consumer because we can by crippling the phone). I find it ethically horrible, it's basically a tax on the technologically less educated. I realize full well there are ways round it, there just shouldn't be anything to get round in the first place, that's my point.

Fair enough and I agree with you philosophically. :)

aristobrat
Sep 5, 2007, 08:31 PM
I have a feeling that if Steve Jobs could have offered this service for free he would have, but the music companies probably tied his hands. Evidence of this is that not all of the music on iTunes will even be ringtonable. Jobs is probably in a constant struggle with the blood sucking music companies.
That's kind of what I was thinking, too.

If this is Apple's profit for each song sold on iTunes, perhaps they are looking at ringtones as more profit? Hopefully they make more than 10c per ringtone...

http://images.appleinsider.com/pac-crest-070423.gif

MacGirl1985
Sep 5, 2007, 08:37 PM
Putting two and two together, we can see the pattern: Apple will charge 99 cents until all the early adopters buy their ringtones. Then they'll drop the price!

Sorry, I was referring to the people who are complaining that the iphone price dropped $200. Isn't the premium worth being the coolest one in the office?

For some, their vice is designer clothes. for me, it's wine. for others, it is technology. How many of these people complaining about the iphone price happily upgrade to buy the lastest xbox or wii?

................................

Now for the discussion regarding .99 cents to make songs into ringtones... Time is money, so if you got the time, you can save the dough. For me, I'm too distracted to mess with it...so I will forgo 1/3 of a Latte and spring for the ringtone, if Santa brings me a shiny new iPhone.

And yes, I, too, am a fan of 'no songs'. It sounds quite unprofessional in an office setting. I've been trying for years to find an authentic "24 CTU" ring.
Distinct, yet subtle. Less is more.

sixth
Sep 5, 2007, 08:39 PM
I just tried out itoner...works PERFECT. screw apple's bs.

What program do you guys recommend for editing songs? I just want a certain part of the song, 21 seconds...I am familiar with programs in Windows that does this, but I am still a lil new to the mac side of things...:-)

dubels
Sep 5, 2007, 08:44 PM
It scares me to think that Apple could be headed down the same path as Microsoft and not care about customer satisfaction anymore they just care about making every little nickle and dime off of their customers. I haven't ever been disgusted with Apple until today.

fpnc
Sep 5, 2007, 08:52 PM
Okay, for the record here is what I said LAST week about the possibility of iTunes ringtones:

Title: Ringtones are a billion dollar business

I doubt that Apple will simply "throw the door open" and offer free
ringtone conversions for the iPhone. The ringtone business is worth
billions of dollars and the record labels are highly unlikely to
allow Apple to bundle ringtone conversions at the standard $0.99 song
price. Even less likely is the possibility that they will allow you
to convert songs that you've ripped from CDs.

I suspect that they will allow upgrades like they do with iTunes Plus
and for a limited amount of time you'll be able to download a
ringtone version of any song that you've previously purchased for a
relatively small fee. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if it were
something like $0.99 for each upgrade and $1.98 for any future
purchases of the full-length song plus ringtone.

As for the Beatles, I kind of doubt it. Eventually it will happen but
I don't think it will be next week.


and the link: http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=4109439&postcount=33

aristobrat
Sep 5, 2007, 08:54 PM
I just tried out itoner...works PERFECT. screw apple's bs.

What program do you guys recommend for editing songs? I just want a certain part of the song, 21 seconds...I am familiar with programs in Windows that does this, but I am still a lil new to the mac side of things...:-)
I'd suggest iTunes (since it will let you pick up to a 30 second clip anywhere in a song and add fades to it), but since you're not having any of what they're serving today, ... :D

It scares me to think that Apple could be headed down the same path as Microsoft and not care about customer satisfaction anymore they just care about making every little nickle and dime off of their customers. I haven't ever been disgusted with Apple until today.
Customer satisfaction? Look above for the typical problems people face making their own ringtones. For the majority of the world that buys ringtones, do any other phone manufacturer give you a tool like iTunes to make a ringtone out of the part of the song YOU get to select? Does Microsoft have a tool for making a ringtone for Windows Mobile phones? No. They expect you to figure out how to create a custom MP3 and manually copy it over to some obscure folder on your WM device using ActiveSync. Tell me the regular person on the street is going to bother with that.

If you wouldn't pay $2.50 to Sprint or Verizon to download a ringtone, then don't. If you wouldn't pay $1.98 to Apple to create a ringtone, then don't. But why the uproar for Apple to take a business model (ringtones) and make it easier and cheaper for the consumer that pays for ringtones to make a more personable product.

And for the rest of the world there's iToner or copying the files over manually.

dankashane85
Sep 5, 2007, 08:56 PM
You can get any mp3 or aac ringtone on your iPhone without paying for itoner.

http://8.7.217.31/eharris/statuses/229791072

its a beta but works fine.

macenforcer
Sep 5, 2007, 08:59 PM
This is just as lame as when apple charged to unlock your "n" on your wifi card.

See how that worked out for them?

ctapia
Sep 5, 2007, 09:14 PM
AMEN BROTHER !!!

I wish people with stupid ringtones would start on fire as their phone rings :-P

To each it's own, I don't care for music ringtones either. Am I the only one that just wants simple, normal ringtones?

shemp9999
Sep 5, 2007, 09:20 PM
To each it's own, I don't care for music ringtones either. I'm one of the few that just wants simple, normal ringtones?

I like really quiet yet distinctive ringtones for the very few occasions my phone is not silent. a good jazz or avant-garde track often fits the bill.

fpnc
Sep 5, 2007, 09:26 PM
Why do I have to pay an extra $0.99 to make a ringtone out of a song I already own?

Because technically you don't really "own" it. You own the physical media (CD, tape, whatever) but you have a restricted license on the use of the content (i.e. the music).

Whether "fair use" covers the conversion to a ringtone is probably an untested legal question. In any case, I don't think Apple had much choice in this matter. The music companies would have been even more upset at Apple than they already are today if Apple had provided a simple means to convert songs to ringtones for free. And as for the $0.99 ringtone price on iTunes that was probably already part of Apple's long-term agreement with the record companies. Legally and contractually they were probably required to charge something for the ringtones and the $0.99 price is really quite competitive with other ringtone services.

And finally, Apple isn't exactly against earning a little extra cash from ringtones (granted) since they are in the business of making money. So, if you're really upset by this announcement on ringtones then by all means feel free to "blame" Apple too. I don't think I'm being a "fan-boy" here, just realistic.

Frankly, I think the ringtones, the Wi-Fi Music Store, and the Starbucks announcement are all pretty meaningless. I doubt they will have any long term impact on the industry.

Incog79
Sep 5, 2007, 09:58 PM
Because technically you don't really "own" it. You own the physical media (CD, tape, whatever) but you have a restricted license on the use of the content (i.e. the music).

Whether "fair use" covers the conversion to a ringtone is probably an untested legal question.

Thank you for actually bringing some sense into this thread. It's amazing what people feel entitled to, with virtually nothing to base it on. The way people throw around the word "right," without an understanding of what it really means gets old pretty fast.

I'm pretty sure that fair use does not include ringtones. Not too long ago, the music industry went as far as saying that playing (purchased) music in your car with the windows down technically violated the license you bought with the music, but that they were choosing not to enforce their rights.

I should have a more definite answer for this tomorrow; my roommate is taking a Copyright in the Music Industry class, and they have a speaker from ASCAP coming tomorrow.

bretm
Sep 5, 2007, 10:21 PM
Are there any other iPhone owners out there who are annoyed with Apple right now? Some of us just bought a $600 phone 2 MONTHS ago, and they just dropped the price, and released a new product that is almost the same thing without having to deal with at&t.

Thanks Apple. Remind me never to buy any new device you come out with for a couple of months ever again.

The new product is nothing like the iPhone. It doesn't even have mail. Or a phone. So, it's basically an ipod with a web browser. Last time I checked I have mail, a phone, notes, stocks, maps, weather, and a camera. And edge capability that goes with the phone allowing me on the web almost anywhere. They're quite different products.

johnmcboston
Sep 5, 2007, 10:32 PM
OK, did the ipod update break anything for anyone?

CJD2112
Sep 5, 2007, 10:40 PM
OK, did the ipod update break anything for anyone?

Oooo, there's an iPod update? What about the iPhone or iTunes? I thought Jobs said iTunes 8 would be released tonight. Not so much then eh? Hmmmm...:o

Scottuary
Sep 5, 2007, 10:44 PM
Yo Stevie... where's this iTunes update you said would happen (and I quote) "tonight"!?!

pianos101
Sep 5, 2007, 10:50 PM
Yo Stevie... where's this iTunes update you said would happen (and I quote) "tonight"!?!

yeah... it's like i *want* to keep myself awake endlessly pressing "check now" for the update...

cepler
Sep 5, 2007, 11:13 PM
:mad:

WTF, I pay $0.99 for the song I should be able to make my own damn ringtone w/o paying for the song TWICE...BS. Whatever, not like I want an iPhone anyhow since it's on AT&T.


:mad:

mambodancer
Sep 5, 2007, 11:25 PM
It still boggles my mind that someone would actually PAY for a RINGTONE!!!! I can do it for free and make my own with final cut and transfer it for free with bluetooth? Why are people still buying ringtones?

Because they want to. It is a multimillion dollar business for the cell phone companies and very successful at that. Why would anyone netflix or rent a movie when they can get it from the library for free? Ringtones (and ringbacks) are something a whole lot of people want and are willing to spend a lot more than $1.98 for. Just go to any of the hundreds of ringtone sites and see...why rate this negative if Apple is only giving people (millions of them based on existing sales of ringtones) what they want?

beetlejuice
Sep 5, 2007, 11:26 PM
yeah, the ringtone thing is a rip off, but i dont think its a big deal. Just go to modmyiphone.com and figure out how to do it yourself. Its really easy

macrev
Sep 5, 2007, 11:27 PM
Yeah, I would rather do something that was made by the company that made the phone and is guarenteed to work and not cause problems later. I just don't wanna mess with iToner or anything.

iToner is $15... works awesome, easy to use. You can't choose what part of the song you want to use, unless you go in to iTunes and tell it manually when to start (time in). But for $15, it is a beautiful app.

mambodancer
Sep 5, 2007, 11:30 PM
Thank you for actually bringing some sense into this thread. It's amazing what people feel entitled to, with virtually nothing to base it on. The way people throw around the word "right," without an understanding of what it really means gets old pretty fast.

I'm pretty sure that fair use does not include ringtones. Not too long ago, the music industry went as far as saying that playing (purchased) music in your car with the windows down technically violated the license you bought with the music, but that they were choosing not to enforce their rights.

I should have a more definite answer for this tomorrow; my roommate is taking a Copyright in the Music Industry class, and they have a speaker from ASCAP coming tomorrow.

And ask him if you can play your CD's in a commercial or business environment and the answer will be a resonding NO! You have to pay a license fee to the recording company or artist (actually there is an association that monitors this). You cant even have the staff sing Happy Birthday in a Restuarant with out paying a royalty. That's why they don't do that anymore.

mpqtpie
Sep 5, 2007, 11:49 PM
I was actually delighted to hear that Apple is releasing a new ringtone program. I don't know any of the ringtone-creating software and will probably only download a couple anyway. It's a nice solution for those of us who don't have the time or the know-how to create our own. It's pretty simple that if you don't like the new program then don't buy the ringtones. But at least there is the option to buy. Have some of you forgotten that one of the small gripes about the iPhone initially was the inability to download ringtones? Now there are a thousands and thousands to choose from.

fpnc
Sep 6, 2007, 12:14 AM
Yo Stevie... where's this iTunes update you said would happen (and I quote) "tonight"!?!

It's still before 10PM PT (1AM Eastern) so I suspect that the iTunes engineers and website administrators are working late to get things going. I have a feeling that today's announcements were rather rushed and it doesn't help that Steve Jobs is so paranoid about product leaks that most of the company (I mean Apple) probably didn't know before today what was actually going to be announced.

I'm expecting that we'll see something tomorrow afternoon or no later than Friday since the latter is when the new iPods are supposed to start showing up at the stores. Thus Friday would kind of be a "drop dead" date for all those at Apple who fear Steve (and that would be, I guess, everyone).

SactoGuy18
Sep 6, 2007, 12:34 AM
My guess is that Apple will make iTunes 7.4 available tomorrow along with an update to the iPhone that will give the iPhone functionality similiar to the iPod touch.

aafuss1
Sep 6, 2007, 12:39 AM
Still not appearing in Software update.

aafuss1
Sep 6, 2007, 12:41 AM
You can create small MIDI files in Babya Logic and use iToner and iTunes to convert to iPhone suitable format.

JPyre
Sep 6, 2007, 12:53 AM
First the lies about iPhone being based on OSX, an outrageous and unprecedented price drop, now the lies about iTunes being released tonight. What's next, Leopard delayed again?

Dont flame back please, I'm being sarchastic. Although I do feel the events in the last 6mo Apple have shaken my 20yr loyalty to the ground, and caused me to re-think my perception of the company I grew up with.

Maybe it's just me growing up. I used to think Apple was different.

thirdwaver
Sep 6, 2007, 01:24 AM
Ok, I get it. It's not Apple's fault, it's the record companies'. So here's my diatribe to them...

Dear Record Company Executive:

I can already listen to a 30 second snippet of all of your songs as many times as I like... on the ITMS! And with the new updates, I can do this from my phone/iPod Touch! So I'm standing in line at the grocery store and my phone rings. The dude behind me hears my 30 second snippet of some over-hyped, underpaid artist of yours and thinks, "That is a cool song, I'm gonna run home and buy that.". But instead, you're going to make me pay 99 cents for the right to walk around and advertise your music? Eat me. You should pay ME every time my phone rings you selfish pigs.

With Love,

Sean

mdriftmeyer
Sep 6, 2007, 01:57 AM
My guess is that Apple will make iTunes 7.4 available tomorrow along with an update to the iPhone that will give the iPhone functionality similiar to the iPod touch.

It's up folks.

Doctor Q
Sep 6, 2007, 02:03 AM
It's up folks.See the news story (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/09/06/apple-posts-itunes-7-4-with-ringtones-support/) and discussion thread.

Gerwin
Sep 6, 2007, 02:31 AM
All this fancy features and still no browsing by composer, neither in iTunes nor in the Musixtore. I can't believe how they can ignore classical music like this. Guess they don't really like music at Apple :(

DaftUnion
Sep 6, 2007, 03:49 AM
Maybe I'll buy one or two at the most to try it out, but I can't justify paying for ringtones on a normal basis.

awesomebase
Sep 6, 2007, 07:06 AM
Argh... why can't people see below the surface with this? Apple doesn't own the songs! Apple has to negotiate ringtone rights from the music industry just like everyone else!

This is so obvious... why anyone would think that Apple has some mystical power to pull free ringtones out of the greedy bastards running the music industry is beyond me.

Correction, I don't know if this is common knowledge or not, but no ringtone requires rights from the music industry as they are 30 seconds or less in length. That is why you get to "preview" songs without buying them for 30 seconds. Apple doesn't pay a penny to the artists or to the music industry for this... it is, as the saying goes, all gravy!

iShak
Sep 6, 2007, 07:14 AM
so .. if itune adds fade-in and out automatically, then the ring tone on a loop won't sound very nice would they? .. (fade-in)ting aling ling ling (fade-out)(fade-in) ting aling ling ling (fade out) ...

:S

and all this for a 99c!? HAHA ..

* you own the device and you can't unlock it
* you have the song (legally bought with real money, the whole works) but you can't use it as you wish without paying even more real money.. e.g make a ring tone out of it!

^ recipe for disaster? ... maybe

on a serious note, this ring tone system is just ridiculous!, Apple + AT&T + music labels sure are milking iPhoners for all they are worth and more! .. if you can afford a $599 dud then you can afford $1 ring tone .. fair enough!

milo
Sep 6, 2007, 07:20 AM
Regardless of that, I still can't use my own music (i.e. a Garageband composition or music I own the rights to or music out of copyright). They have nothing to do with that, just like Sony have nothing to do with it on my current phone. I didn't buy it from them. I am not signed to a music label. I own my Intellectual Property, which I understand just fine thank you very much. The iPhone will play the files as an iPod, but not as a phone, because they want me to pay them money to edit down a limited number of tracks. They don't give me the option of playing my own music on my own phone (as a ringtone). How can you defend that? It's crazy.

You still don't get it. I'm actually not even defending it, I'm just explaining that it's not apple to blame, it's the record companies. It's out of apple's hands.

If apple allowed using any audio file for a ringtone, not only would it allow your own recordings, but it would allow any song ripped from a CD. I don't think a method exists to allow original content but not copyrighted material, it just isn't technically possible. Do you know of a way for software to tell the difference between a file you created from scratch and one you ripped from CD? The record companies don't want to lose that revenue, so their contracts say that apple can't allow "free" ringtones. If Apple wants content from the record labels for their stores, they have to abide by the contracts negotiated by the record labels or stop selling the content.

Major label X insists on an extra fee for ringtones, and that apple not allow unprotected files as ringtones or else they'll pull their songs from the iTunes store completely.

Are you seriously arguing that Apple should have insisted on "open" ringtones even if it meant ending contracts with most if not all of the major labels and losing a huge amount of content from iTunes?

They don't need to negotiate. Offer the service, but also offer an open way for people to add their own ringtones or whatever if they so choose [without hacks]. If you want the super-easy way, pay Apple. If not, do it yourself with whatever audio file you choose.

Heck, my Kyocera 6035 that ran Palm OS about 8 years ago or so allowed me to use any audio file I wanted. Nothing particularly hard or tricky licensing about it. Plain and simple. Apple is getting evermore greedy.

Wrong. You really think the record labels would be fine with that, losing that huge revenue stream? It IS tricky if the record labels made locking that feature out a condition in their contract. And chances are extremely high they did.

I have a feeling that if Steve Jobs could have offered this service for free he would have, but the music companies probably tied his hands. Evidence of this is that not all of the music on iTunes will even be ringtonable. Jobs is probably in a constant struggle with the blood sucking music companies.

Exactly. Finally someone who gets it.

milo
Sep 6, 2007, 07:24 AM
First the lies about iPhone being based on OSX...

I know you were being sarcastic...but what does this refer to? Doesn't it run an OS based on OSX?

diamond.g
Sep 6, 2007, 07:31 AM
Correction, I don't know if this is common knowledge or not, but no ringtone requires rights from the music industry as they are 30 seconds or less in length. That is why you get to "preview" songs without buying them for 30 seconds. Apple doesn't pay a penny to the artists or to the music industry for this... it is, as the saying goes, all gravy!

This brings up a good point. Does Apple have to get permission to use a <30 second clip of music for a preview? I was under the impression that clips 30 seconds or less fall under fair use. Someone here should know more.

The way I see it if iPhone users have to pay to listen to a <30 second clip of a song so should everyone else that uses the preview feature on iTunes.

milo
Sep 6, 2007, 07:31 AM
Correction, I don't know if this is common knowledge or not, but no ringtone requires rights from the music industry as they are 30 seconds or less in length. That is why you get to "preview" songs without buying them for 30 seconds. Apple doesn't pay a penny to the artists or to the music industry for this... it is, as the saying goes, all gravy!

You're completely wrong, just google it and you'll find a ton of sources. The record industry makes tons of money on ringtones over 6 BILLION dollars last year, billboard magazine even has a ringtone chart. And the labels do typically share revenues with the publisher (often the songwriter) although that may not be the artist if they didn't write the song.

briand05
Sep 6, 2007, 07:32 AM
I have a Windows Mobile smartphone and it allows easy selection of any mp3 file for use as a ringtone. This has nothing to do with the record companies, it's Apple milking the customers (again).

milo
Sep 6, 2007, 07:35 AM
This brings up a good point. Does Apple have to get permission to use a <30 second clip of music for a preview? I was under the impression that clips 30 seconds or less fall under fair use. Someone here should know more.

The way I see it if iPhone users have to pay to listen to a <30 second clip of a song so should everyone else that uses the preview feature on iTunes.

Nope, fair use doesn't make any mention of specific times, although generally shorter clips are more likely to be fair use.

Previews aren't comparable to ringtones since they can only be heard in the app and can't be downloaded to a device or listened to elsewhere. And the main fair use argument (if one is needed, the record companies probably consent to preview use) is that they are used to help sales, not substitute for them.

pale9
Sep 6, 2007, 07:42 AM
whem you buy a toyota, you can only fill up at texaco since they have an exclusice 5 year agreement. buying a ford? then you can only gas up at exxon because they subsidized your car cd system...

does everybody see how rediculous this sounds? yet our 'lawmakers' let the phone companies get away with this nonsense....

diamond.g
Sep 6, 2007, 07:50 AM
Nope, fair use doesn't make any mention of specific times, although generally shorter clips are more likely to be fair use.

Previews aren't comparable to ringtones since they can only be heard in the app and can't be downloaded to a device or listened to elsewhere. And the main fair use argument (if one is needed, the record companies probably consent to preview use) is that they are used to help sales, not substitute for them.

Okay, cool. That makes sense. Oh well. I may wait to see how Apple is going to handle those of us who ripped songs from CD and want to use a part of one of those songs. I rather hope they wont make us pay 1.98 for both the whole song (that we already own) and the ringtone.

milo
Sep 6, 2007, 08:15 AM
whem you buy a toyota, you can only fill up at texaco since they have an exclusice 5 year agreement. buying a ford? then you can only gas up at exxon because they subsidized your car cd system...

does everybody see how rediculous this sounds? yet our 'lawmakers' let the phone companies get away with this nonsense....

It is completely legal, has nothing to do with lawmakers. The CONSUMERS let them get away with this by spending billions a year on ringtones at prices that are usually even higher than apple's.

They started doing it, and consumers bought into it, big time. It's not going to go away until consumers stop buying ringtones, and that's probably not going to happen anytime soon.

And by the way, your car analogy is garbage.

pale9
Sep 6, 2007, 08:36 AM
It is completely legal, has nothing to do with lawmakers. The CONSUMERS let them get away with this by spending billions a year on ringtones at prices that are usually even higher than apple's.

They started doing it, and consumers bought into it, big time. It's not going to go away until consumers stop buying ringtones, and that's probably not going to happen anytime soon.

And by the way, your car analogy is garbage.

i was referring more to phones locked to a certain carrier.....

milo
Sep 6, 2007, 08:54 AM
i was referring more to phones locked to a certain carrier.....

In case you didn't notice, this thread is about itunes and ringtones.

Doctor Q
Sep 6, 2007, 09:54 AM
I rather hope they wont make us pay 1.98 for both the whole song (that we already own) and the ringtone.No. The song and the ringtone are sold independently. 99 cents for the ringtone alone. You don't have to buy the song.

ChrisA
Sep 6, 2007, 10:36 AM
iTunes should let you snip any song you already own into a ringtone, free of charge.

You CAN already do this for free. The $0.99 price is a tax on lazy people who can't be bothered the do the conversion themselves.

mark1k
Sep 6, 2007, 10:39 AM
OK, moving off subject a little.

I have an Iphone, and have downloaded 7.4. When will I be able to see any of this new functionality on my I phone? Will I be able to get ringtones next week when they turn it on , or will I have to wait for the Iphone software update later this month?

diamond.g
Sep 6, 2007, 10:41 AM
OK, moving off subject a little.

I have an Iphone, and have downloaded 7.4. When will I be able to see any of this new functionality on my I phone? Will I be able to get ringtones next week when they turn it on , or will I have to wait for the Iphone software update later this month?

From my understanding ringtones next week wont require a software update of the iPhone.

stompy
Sep 6, 2007, 11:30 AM
All this fancy features and still no browsing by composer, neither in iTunes nor in the Musixtore. I can't believe how they can ignore classical music like this. Guess they don't really like music at Apple :(

I've mumbled to myself more than once, "does ANYONE at Apple listen to classical music?" Answer? Probably no one remotely associated with iTunes. Would it kill them to add conductor, orchestra, ensamble tags? I reported this exact problem almost 2 years ago, dev connection replied with the standard "already reported."

stompy
Sep 6, 2007, 11:36 AM
Would it kill them to add conductor, orchestra, ensamble tags? I reported this exact problem almost 2 years ago, dev connection replied with the standard "already reported."

An addition to my rant, they could also add sub genres, which would be benefit every kind of listener. Supposed to be supported by gracenote's DB (CDDB). but iTunes doesn't care. (Same response from Apple when I submitted this request.)

Peace
Sep 6, 2007, 11:37 AM
You CAN already do this for free. The $0.99 price is a tax on lazy people who can't be bothered the do the conversion themselves.


If you can do this already why can't I do it with the new iTunes?

diamond.g
Sep 6, 2007, 11:53 AM
If you can do this already why can't I do it with the new iTunes?

From the explaination of an individual earlier, it looks like the new iTunes ringtone maker interface is a gui way of: adding start and stop points, creating the actual file, and putting it in the ringtones folder on your iPhone. Everything but the last part (putting ringtone in ringtone folder) can be done with iTunes now. So the last question is will we be able to drag and drop our own ringtones into the folder.

Porco
Sep 6, 2007, 02:32 PM
You still don't get it. I'm actually not even defending it, I'm just explaining that it's not apple to blame, it's the record companies. It's out of apple's hands.

[...]

Are you seriously arguing that Apple should have insisted on "open" ringtones even if it meant ending contracts with most if not all of the major labels and losing a huge amount of content from iTunes?



Agh. Yes, I DO get it, I think it's wrong! Can we stop with all the patronising 'you disagree with me therefore I know better' stuff please?

I simply don't believe that Apple adopting an open position on ringtones other than those supplied by the iTunes store would have ended their contracts at all. If they want to do exactly what they've done that's up to them, just don't cripple the phone to not use user's own files. If not crippling the phone had meant the music labels not wanting to participate in a ringtones for sale scheme, I think Apple should have just told them 'fine, users will do it for free anyway, you'll get nothing'. I'm sure they would prefer to sell some (much as I despise the non-original ringtone industry but anyway...) than leave it completely open as the only option. That would have hurt the music companies more than Apple, and I believe Apple would be taking care of its customers far better that way, which in the end is a much better route to profit than by artificially crippling their products.

If it WAS a contract-threatening problem, the plain old-fashioned iPod as is would already have stopped the iTunes Store from happening in the first place, because that plays tracks not bought from the Store!

pizzy
Sep 6, 2007, 02:52 PM
I am surprised I haven't seen anyone in this thread point out that iTunes will let you create a 30 second snippet from any song you have in your library right now for free. I use it to make 30 second ringtones for my sony ericson.

I'm at work and don't have iTunes here so I can't see the settings but if you go into the info/properties of the song you want a ringtone, you can change the start and stop time that is played. Then simply click on, I think, song>then import... something like that. And the 30 song is automatically added to your library as a 30 second file. The original is untouched as well. Just remember to go into the original and change the start and stop times back to normal. voila.

Fazzl
Sep 6, 2007, 02:53 PM
I am surprised I haven't seen anyone in this thread point out that iTunes will let you create a 30 second snippet from any song you have in your library right now for free. I use it to make 30 second ringtones for my sony ericson.

I'm at work and don't have iTunes here so I can't see the settings but if you go into the info/properties of the song you want a ringtone, you can change the start and stop time that is played. Then simply click on, I think, song>then import... something like that. And the 30 song is automatically added to your library as a 30 second file. The original is untouched as well. Just remember to go into the original and change the start and stop times back to normal. voila.

But you cant sync it to you iphone under ringtones without modding/hacking the iphone.

Tara Davis
Sep 6, 2007, 03:00 PM
The funny part is, I made a bunch of custom ringtones for my Pink RAZR last year using... that's right: iTunes.

It's trivially easy to use iTunes to transcode a 30-second copy of one of your tracks into whatever format your phone supports, then use Bluetooth to upload it to your phone.

Two questions:
1. Does anything about the new iTunes update break this capacity? (I don't see why it would.)

2. Is there any reason why I couldn't load my ringtones into an iPhone the same way I do with my RAZR?

Loge
Sep 6, 2007, 03:03 PM
I've mumbled to myself more than once, "does ANYONE at Apple listen to classical music?" Answer? Probably no one remotely associated with iTunes. Would it kill them to add conductor, orchestra, ensamble tags? I reported this exact problem almost 2 years ago, dev connection replied with the standard "already reported."

I agree, but the trouble is also when you get the info from the Gracenote DB it is generally all over the place, and you always have to do clean up.

I've now got used to simply putting composer in the artist field, since that's how I nearly always browse classical/opera and paste the conductor/orchestra info into the comments. Minor niggle really.

Other issue at the moment is that I can't find much album art for a lot of classical music and so it doesn't really go with coverflow.

Tara Davis
Sep 6, 2007, 03:10 PM
But you cant sync it to you iphone under ringtones without modding/hacking the iphone.

Wow. Really?

Another strike against the iPhone.

Let's go down the list, shall we?
1. It's expensive

2. It's tied to a provider I don't like

3. You *MUST* buy an EDGE data contract, even if you only intend to use data features via Wi-Fi

4. You can't load your own home-brew ringtones

5. No hard drive for storage of lots of movies & videos

... and the list goes on.

There are SO MANY features about the iPhone I like, but just enough that I won't buy it.

I've decided that what I really want is not an iPhone, but an iPod with a simple GSM phone grafted to it.

Make that for me, and I won't care if it costs hundreds of dollars. The savings in handbag space alone will make it worth a premium to me.

Add the iPod Touch features & a basic voice-only phone to the 160GB iPod classic, and I'll gladly shell out $800 for it. Heck, throw in an SDK and third-party support, and I wouldn't think twice about paying $1000.

In its current state, I'm not completely happy with any of the current offerings. I'm going to stick with my 5G iPod & RAZR for now, and tote along a laptop when I want to use cofeehouse Wi-Fi.

I agree, but the trouble is also when you get the info from the Gracenote DB it is generally all over the place, and you always have to do clean up.

I've now got used to simply putting composer in the artist field, since that's how I nearly always browse classical/opera and paste the conductor/orchestra info into the comments. Minor niggle really.

Other issue at the moment is that I can't find much album art for a lot of classical music and so it doesn't really go with coverflow.

Heck, the Gracenote DB doesn't even get the POP MUSIC stuff right more than half of the time. Wrong genre entries, spelling errors in titles, wildly incorrect composer credits, wrong release dates, Greatest Hits covers assigned to actual albums, disks labeled as multi-artist "compilations" that aren't... etc. It's become habitual for me to *always* go in and carefully clean up the tags on a CD before I import it, because it's extremely rare that something doesn't need fixing.

When it comes to the classical stuff, I would prefer that iTunes doesn't even try to fetch it for me. Gracenote sucks, and has only gotten worse over the years.

Apple would be far better off maintaining their own database, using info provided by the labels, at least for the iTMS stuff, and if you happen to rip a disk which is also available in the store, it should look for that data first before turning to Gracenote.

Incog79
Sep 6, 2007, 03:46 PM
Other issue at the moment is that I can't find much album art for a lot of classical music and so it doesn't really go with coverflow.

I haven't done this yet myself, but it would be fairly easy to find an image of better-known composers and paste that it as your cover art. Much better than the default "no album art" icon, IMHO

Incog79
Sep 6, 2007, 03:55 PM
Another strike against the iPhone.

Let's go down the list, shall we?
1. It's expensive

2. It's tied to a provider I don't like

3. You *MUST* buy an EDGE data contract, even if you only intend to use data features via Wi-Fi

4. You can't load your own home-brew ringtones

5. No hard drive for storage of lots of movies & videos

...

Make that for me, and I won't care if it costs hundreds of dollars. The savings in handbag space alone will make it worth a premium to me.

Add the iPod Touch features & a basic voice-only phone to the 160GB iPod classic, and I'll gladly shell out $800 for it. Heck, throw in an SDK and third-party support, and I wouldn't think twice about paying $1000.



so it doesn't give you what you want right now. Fine, don't buy it. But how can you say you'd pay $1000 for a phone/PDA and then bitch that $400 is expensive? And do you seriously expect anyone to believe that you would *never* use the EDGE network? I live in NYC, and I even can't find free wireless everywhere I would want to use the internet. It has been repeatedly shown that #4 is possible (if you can't do it yourself, just pay someone else to - you appear to have the money), and with the price difference between what you would pay and what it would cost, you can buy yourself a shiny new 160GB iPod.

On a more practical note, does anyone know if the touch interface would work as well on a hard drive-based iPhone as it does on one with flash memory, given the stability and speed of the two?

Homerun7dh
Sep 6, 2007, 07:24 PM
Ok, so let's take a look at this whole situation from another perspective.

Dear Apple,

Thank you for giving me a FULL song, AND a ring tone for less than other carriers charge for a RINGTONE ALONE! How you squeezed that out of the record industry is beyond me, but thank you. Hopefully people charging $2.99 for a ringtone will be forced to lower their UNGODLY prices to $.99.
Also, thanks for letting me choose which 30 seconds I buy! Now if I want the bridge or prechorus to a song rather than the chorus repeated over and over, I can!

Do I have a point or do I have a point?

Also, I'd rather give my money to Apple for ringtones than those horrendous ring tone companies that plague television with poorly made commercials with crappy rap music. You think for $2.99 a ringone they could afford better advertising...

You all have to realize that Apple is entering a new territory: ring tones. And they already are the most promising company offering ring tones.

Get it in your head. Ringtones will never be free. Why? The Record Industry is in such bad shape that the relatively little money they make from them is needed. If you don't want to pay for ringtones, buy one of those computer programs. I, for one, don't mind paying Apple 99 cents for the 3 or 4 ring tones I'll have.

Porco
Sep 6, 2007, 07:48 PM
Ok, so let's take a look at this whole situation from another perspective.

Dear Apple,

Thank you for giving me a FULL song, AND a ring tone for less than other carriers charge for a RINGTONE ALONE! How you squeezed that out of the record industry is beyond me, but thank you. Hopefully people charging $2.99 for a ringtone will be forced to lower their UNGODLY prices to $.99.
Also, thanks for letting me choose which 30 seconds I buy! Now if I want the bridge or prechorus to a song rather than the chorus repeated over and over, I can!

Do I have a point or do I have a point?

You have the point that others have also made that Apple's pricing for ringtones is less egregious than elsewhere. But two wrongs don't make a right, and your point, though true, is still ignoring the fact that apparently the only reason they have artificially crippled the iPhone's ability to play audio files upon receiving a call, as is the case with many other phones, is in order to force people unaware of the hacks/3rd party apps to spend more money on music they've already purchased once.

Again, it's not the fact Apple are selling ringtones (at whatever price, though I think 100% of the original price is terrible too) that I find as disgusting as much as the fact that they are purposefully crippling their own device (which has nothing to do with the music companies) in order to boost the sales of those ringtones.

mambodancer
Sep 7, 2007, 10:43 AM
Was just listening to the latest MacNotables Podcast and Chuck Joiner was saying that ringtones are only $.99. It's only $2 if you want to create a ringtone AND own the song as well. In fact, from the podcast, the advantage of owning the song is that you can change the location or edit the ringtone anytime you want after paying the $.99 ringtone fee. Apparantely, if you don't want to purchase the entire song, you can make the ringtone for $.99, you just can't go back and change it again without paying another $.99 or just buying the song outright.

Have to verify this when the feature is turned on but that makes complete sense given that there are many pre-existing ringtones on the iTunes store already. These are files that are from 10-30 seconds in length. Additionally, there are hundreds of sound effects files on the iTunes store that could also be used as ringtones.

So, the rumor that ringtones cost $1.98 may not be specifically true depending on the way you buy ringtones from the store.

Rantipole
Sep 7, 2007, 02:23 PM
I make my own ringtones for my RAZR. But I can definitely see many people justifying the $0.99 cost to have the software do most of the work for them. It is a bit of a pain to make your own. I'm a cheap bastard, however, so I will continue making my own.

hatfinch
Sep 7, 2007, 05:59 PM
Ok, so let's take a look at this whole situation from another perspective.

Dear Apple,

Thank you for giving me a FULL song, AND a ring tone for less than other carriers charge for a RINGTONE ALONE! How you squeezed that out of the record industry is beyond me, but thank you. Hopefully people charging $2.99 for a ringtone will be forced to lower their UNGODLY prices to $.99.
Also, thanks for letting me choose which 30 seconds I buy! Now if I want the bridge or prechorus to a song rather than the chorus repeated over and over, I can!

Do I have a point or do I have a point?


Remind me to come round sometime and extort money from you at slightly less than the going rate of other gangsters in your area. I can't believe you are anything less than furious that you have to pay extra to listen to an excerpt of music you've already bought.

People will buy shareware apps to make their ringtones. And they'll find they can't make ringtones out of the music they bought at the iTMS (unless they paid extra for certain EMI tunes). So they'll have to go find that music again on Limewire or whatever, in which case they'll be asking themselves, why did I bother to pay, when the free stuff is less restrictive?

Doctor Q
Sep 7, 2007, 06:05 PM
People will buy shareware apps to make their ringtones. And they'll find they can't make ringtones out of the music they bought at the iTMS (unless they paid extra for certain EMI tunes). So they'll have to go find that music again on Limewire or whatever, in which case they'll be asking themselves, why did I bother to pay, when the free stuff is less restrictive?If it's on the honor system, will these same people really send in their shareware fees?

Tara Davis
Sep 8, 2007, 03:14 AM
If it's on the honor system, will these same people really send in their shareware fees?

What shareware? With my RAZR, I make all my ringtones using iTunes.

Cost: $0.

Like I've said several times before, stuff my 80GB iPod and my pink RAZR into the same small gizmo, and you get my money. Try to sell a slightly crippled phone tied to AT&T with an iPod nano built into it, and I'll pass for now.

Tara Davis
Sep 8, 2007, 03:28 AM
But how can you say you'd pay $1000 for a phone/PDA and then bitch that $400 is expensive?

Because $400 is too much for a phone that doesn't cut it, and $1000 is fine by me for a phone/iPod that meets my needs.

Tara Davis
Sep 8, 2007, 03:30 AM
I live in NYC, and I even can't find free wireless everywhere I would want to use the internet.

I live in what you people consider "fly-over country", and I can ALWAYS find free wi-fi when I need it. Maybe your precious East Cost metropolis is not the high-tech paradise you imagine it to be.

Incog79
Sep 9, 2007, 08:09 AM
I live in what you people consider "fly-over country", and I can ALWAYS find free wi-fi when I need it. Maybe your precious East Cost metropolis is not the high-tech paradise you imagine it to be.

Not everyone who lives in New York thinks it is a paradise, or that other parts of the country are nothing but an impediment to getting to Los Angeles. I just made the reasonable assumption that a densely-populated area like New York is more likely to have more free wi-fi than a suburban area, and I stand by the guess that NYC has more available free wi-fi than most other cities and towns.

Anyway, I agree that the iPhone is missing some key features that other phones have - definitely so at a $600 price point, perhaps not for $400. If I had $1000 to spend on a phone now, though, I wouldn't hesitate to get one today for $400. By the time Apple adds those features, spending another $400-600 whenever that happens wouldn't be a big deal, and I'd get to play with one for that much longer.