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MacRumors
Sep 14, 2007, 10:07 AM
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Reuters reports (http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSL1431969920070914?pageNumber=1) that Deutsche Telekom (T-Mobile) has "clinched" the exclusive deal with Apple to sell the iPhone in Germany.

According to Reuters source, the deal will be announced next week. This would coincide with Apple's "Mum is no longer the word" Media event (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/09/13/apple-uk-special-event-september-18th-2007/) to be held in London on September 18th.

The initial price of the German iPhone is expected to be 399 euros ($554). T-Mobile as reportedly agreed to the both voice and data revenue sharing with Apple.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/09/14/iphone-germany-to-be-announced-next-week/)



quigleybc
Sep 14, 2007, 10:09 AM
Yay for Germany. :)

Canada......next? never? help???

pdpfilms
Sep 14, 2007, 10:12 AM
Any word yet on it being sold unlocked? Isn't that mandatory in certain European countries?

rbroady
Sep 14, 2007, 10:15 AM
could apples hook-up with t-mobile help US t-mobile costumers get visual viocemail that are using unlocked iphones?

quigleybc
Sep 14, 2007, 10:17 AM
could apples hook-up with t-mobile help US t-mobile costumers get visual viocemail that are using unlocked iphones?


I can't imagine....no way...

plumbingandtech
Sep 14, 2007, 10:33 AM
could apples hook-up with t-mobile help US t-mobile costumers get visual viocemail that are using unlocked iphones?

No.

CalBoy
Sep 14, 2007, 10:34 AM
Yay for Germany. :)

Canada......next? never? help???

Well, it will take longer for Canada because it's not a major market. Germany is the 2nd or 3rd largest consumer market behind the US. Japan is also up there. If Apple is going by a "large markets first" policy, then I'd say you're going to be waiting a bit longer.

SirOmega
Sep 14, 2007, 10:37 AM
400 Euros for a non-3G phone? Do they actually plan on selling any?

The phone has to be a 3G phone. No way around it. Thinksecret is wrong on this.

JloR
Sep 14, 2007, 10:39 AM
399 sounds a bit dodgy.. That's quite a lot of a price difference from the US version. If the EU version doesn't have any different hardware, then why spend some 150USD more on it?

CalBoy
Sep 14, 2007, 10:43 AM
399 sounds a bit dodgy.. That's quite a lot of a price difference from the US version. If the EU version doesn't have any different hardware, then why spend some 150USD more on it?

Apple's costs of currency exchange and higher costs in Europe (taxes for example) mean that there is going to be a higher price when compared to USD.

syklee26
Sep 14, 2007, 10:48 AM
No 3G in iPhone would subject Apple to mockery from Europeans. anything other than 3G in Europe is worthless.

2ms
Sep 14, 2007, 11:03 AM
Yeah I was just over in Finland this summer talking to some Nokia guys, actually, and then to a lot of other Finns at other times about the iPhone and they all couldn't get around the fact it doesn't have 3G. Basically, a phone that expensive without 3G to them was laughable.

plumbingandtech
Sep 14, 2007, 11:09 AM
Yeah I was just over in Finland this summer talking to some Nokia guys, actually, and then to a lot of other Finns at other times about the iPhone and they all couldn't get around the fact it doesn't have 3G. Basically, a phone that expensive without 3G to them was laughable.

And every interface Nokia has made was laughable compared to the iPhone.

Maybe they should stop chatting and start producing phones without horrible interfaces.

Unspeaked
Sep 14, 2007, 11:11 AM
400 Euros for a non-3G phone? Do they actually plan on selling any?

The phone has to be a 3G phone. No way around it. Thinksecret is wrong on this.

The iPod Touch isn't 3G and I'm sure they're selling plenty of those... ;)

owen-b
Sep 14, 2007, 11:14 AM
If it's a 16GB iPhone then that's a bloody great price.

KindredMAC
Sep 14, 2007, 11:16 AM
3G is overrated here in the states. AT&T's 3G coverage is not anything to write home about.

Here in New York state, there are only 2 places that have 3G coverage, NYC and the Hamptons. The rest of the state is on EDGE. Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse and Albany are all EDGE.

So if the 3G coverage is not there in most states, why should Apple put it into the iPhone?

I'm pretty happy with my 190kbps on EDGE as is because if I need faster speeds I just find myself a WiFi locale in a pinch.

ImNoSuperMan
Sep 14, 2007, 11:21 AM
399 sounds like a joke. 349 will be reasonable though.

Diatribe
Sep 14, 2007, 11:25 AM
Any word yet on it being sold unlocked? Isn't that mandatory in certain European countries?

It is with a contract as far as I know. Prepaid can be sold locked. Either way this will be interesting.

happydude
Sep 14, 2007, 11:25 AM
quote me, opening up in europe in time for christmas, even in selected countries will give jobs half his projected 10 mill by the end of next year - by the end of this year. i might just be one of them . . . :apple::D

koobcamuk
Sep 14, 2007, 11:25 AM
The iPod Touch isn't 3G and I'm sure they're selling plenty of those... ;)

Err... it's not a phone...

3G is overrated here in the states. AT&T's 3G coverage is not anything to write home about.

Here in New York state, there are only 2 places that have 3G coverage, NYC and the Hamptons. The rest of the state is on EDGE. Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse and Albany are all EDGE.

So if the 3G coverage is not there in most states, why should Apple put it into the iPhone?

I'm pretty happy with my 190kbps on EDGE as is because if I need faster speeds I just find myself a WiFi locale in a pinch.

Everyone knows that the US 'cell phone' market stinks.

Japan and Europe are leagues ahead. 3G is almost total in Japan and over in the UK we have 3G in every city and good coverage elsewhere (someone will argue I am sure).

To sell well (for a 2 year contract) it needs 3G. Otherwise it is not 'future proof' enough and people won't want to be locked down for 2 years with no chance to get a different phone.

Klian
Sep 14, 2007, 11:27 AM
Germany... UK... France... What about Spain ? :confused:

slicecom
Sep 14, 2007, 11:28 AM
Apple should release a 3G version of the iPhone for the German market. Then I could import one and use it in Canada on Rogers network. :D

CalBoy
Sep 14, 2007, 11:32 AM
Germany... UK... France... What about Spain ? :confused:

Who said France? France and Spain will be tertiary concerns for Apple. The larger more affluent markets will be the first ones to see the iPhone. I think after Germany and the UK, the next best market for the iPhone is Japan.

iNev
Sep 14, 2007, 11:33 AM
Japan and Europe are leagues ahead. 3G is almost total in Japan and over in the UK we have 3G in every city and good coverage elsewhere (someone will argue I am sure).

Not wanting to argue exactly but I live in Edinburgh and I've only ever seen the 3G symbol on my phone a few times (I was actually confused at to what it was). Mainly noticed it in European airports.

owen-b
Sep 14, 2007, 11:37 AM
399 sounds like a joke. 349 will be reasonable though.

Jeepers, a little hasty aren't we? Shouldn't we find out what the specs are first?

£399 euros is what a 16GB iPod touch goes for... Mind you, that suggests it isn't what a 16GB iPhone would go for - but then again you've got a LOT of bills to pile up on top of that, 10% of which Apple are getting.

Small White Car
Sep 14, 2007, 11:38 AM
I have no idea if there will be a 3G iPone in Europe, but if there is I suspect we'll see the U.S. 8 GB iPhone stay the same but have a 16 GB 3G phone added next to it for $549.

Apple knows that any 3G phone overseas will get bought by U.S. citizens to some degree, so why not charge them directly? And honestly, it makes more sense to give consumers a choice instead of just upgrading them all to 3G. Many people won't want to pay extra for a feature they can't even use in their area.


EDIT: And while they're at it, put GPS on it raise it all the way back to $599. All of a sudden the iPhone you see now becomes the cheaper "iPhone Nano" everyone's talking about and the $599 iPhone returns, but with a reason for the extra price.

Stella
Sep 14, 2007, 11:39 AM
I can think of a few reasons:

1. Europe / Japan etc is not the states
2. Europe / Japan has far better 3G coverage
3. Apple should update the iPhone accordingly to match the local market, yes, even if that means the states doesn't have 3G
4. You maybe happy with Edge, but those who have enjoyed 3G previously, won't enjoy Edge / gprs speeds!


3G is overrated here in the states. AT&T's 3G coverage is not anything to write home about.

So if the 3G coverage is not there in most states, why should Apple put it into the iPhone?

I'm pretty happy with my 190kbps on EDGE as is because if I need faster speeds I just find myself a WiFi locale in a pinch.

rocklaser
Sep 14, 2007, 11:40 AM
I agree, I've heard 3G is a must.

Introducing a 3G, 16 Gb phone would also go a long way to explain the price cut on the current model.

DVNIEL
Sep 14, 2007, 11:43 AM
... the next best market for the iPhone is Japan.

I have to disagree because Japan's technology will eat the iPhone alive

Aaargh!
Sep 14, 2007, 11:45 AM
Why only 3 countries ? They promised an european launch in Q4 2007, there are 48 countries located in Europe. Only 3 countries is hardly an european launch.

They should have opted for a 3G phone without any deals with the providers, just a pop-in-you-own-SIM retail version and should have launched it globally.

No HSDPA is laughable. And the price ... 399 with a contract ? are you kidding ?

Free with a contract and 299 with prepaid would be more reasonable, considering the outdated technology.

Also, this phone is going to be several months old when it hits the market, that's almost outdated.

If apple wants to compete in the cellphone market, they need to get their ***** together, the rest of the world is not like the US. We'll need a new model at least every 3 months and they need to be up-to-date technology wise. Otherwise SonyEricsso, Nokia and Samsung are going to run circles around them.

TheMechanic
Sep 14, 2007, 11:49 AM
I bet they'll sell like hot cakes here in Germany! No matter if they cost 399Euro (maybe less - but i don't think so)

Why do I think so? 'Cause I just paid 399Euro for a 16GB iPod touch that will hopefully arrive soon! And that one has no phone in it at all...

Small White Car
Sep 14, 2007, 11:49 AM
And the price ... 399 with a contract ? are you kidding ?

Free with a contract and 299 with prepaid would be more reasonable, considering the outdated technology.

But you have no idea what the contract price will be yet, do you? So you have no clue what the final price is.

Here in the U.S., the iPhone's total cost over 2 years was less than many other phones' cost even when the iPhone cost $599!

So until you know the data rates, there's no way to judge the price.

artalliance
Sep 14, 2007, 11:50 AM
Why only 3 countries ? They promised an european launch in Q4 2007, there are 48 countries located in Europe. Only 3 countries is hardly an european launch.

They should have opted for a 3G phone without any deals with the providers, just a pop-in-you-own-SIM retail version and should have launched it globally.

No HSDPA is laughable. And the price ... 399 with a contract ? are you kidding ?

Free with a contract and 299 with prepaid would be more reasonable, considering the outdated technology.

Also, this phone is going to be several months old when it hits the market, that's almost outdated.

If apple wants to compete in the cellphone market, they need to get their ***** together, the rest of the world is not like the US. We'll need a new model at least every 3 months and they need to be up-to-date technology wise. Otherwise SonyEricsso, Nokia and Samsung are going to run circles around them.

Please stop! If it's not for you, don't buy it. Simple.

CalBoy
Sep 14, 2007, 11:59 AM
I have to disagree because Japan's technology will eat the iPhone alive

I'm speaking from a market perspective. Japan's consumer market is the second largest after the US. It's a given that Apple will have to upgrade the iPhone before introducing it to that market.

Stella
Sep 14, 2007, 12:01 PM
Please stop! If it's not for you, don't buy it. Simple.

Every one is entitled to voice their opinion, even if its negative!

And if its not for him, you can be pretty sure that he won't buy it!!!!

Aaargh!
Sep 14, 2007, 12:06 PM
But you have no idea what the contract price will be yet, do you? So you have no clue what the final price is.

No, but at that price it has to be dirt cheap to compete with other offerings.
For example, a HTC Touch smartphone with unlimited internet access (2.5G) costs 22,- a month. with a 2 year plan the phone is free, with a 1 year plan the phone is 89 euro's.

How is apple going to compete with that ?

DaveTheGrey
Sep 14, 2007, 12:09 PM
Apple simply doesen't know what foreign exchange is. It's all just money units. 399$ = 399 As simple as that. :D
iPod Touch Germany (http://store.apple.com/Apple/WebObjects/germanstore.woa/wa/RSLID?nnmm=browse&mco=42C0467A&node=home/ipod/ipod_touch) = iPod Touch USA (http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?nnmm=browse&mco=FDC8CDFF&node=home/ipod/ipod_touch)

So an iPhone for 399 is absolutely possible

CalBoy
Sep 14, 2007, 12:12 PM
Why only 3 countries ? They promised an european launch in Q4 2007, there are 48 countries located in Europe. Only 3 countries is hardly an european launch.

They should have opted for a 3G phone without any deals with the providers, just a pop-in-you-own-SIM retail version and should have launched it globally.

No HSDPA is laughable. And the price ... 399 with a contract ? are you kidding ?

Free with a contract and 299 with prepaid would be more reasonable, considering the outdated technology.

Also, this phone is going to be several months old when it hits the market, that's almost outdated.

If apple wants to compete in the cellphone market, they need to get their ***** together, the rest of the world is not like the US. We'll need a new model at least every 3 months and they need to be up-to-date technology wise. Otherwise SonyEricsso, Nokia and Samsung are going to run circles around them.

OK, a few things about your post.
First off, launching in even one European country qualifies for the title, "European Launch." Apple never stated that it was going to launch in each country by a certain time. I don't know what country you live in, but if it has a small population, I think you're going to have to wait a while. It's not like anyone has anything against you; it's just economics.

Secondly, Apple will not release a crippled phone in Europe. A lot of people know that Europe is more demanding, and Apple will plan accordingly. Jobs is no fool.

Lastly, the price is based on exchange rate costs and overall higher costs in Europe. Taxes and Minimum wage tend to be higher in Europe, so Apple is probably planning accordingly.

rjwill246
Sep 14, 2007, 12:19 PM
Err... it's not a phone...



Everyone knows that the US 'cell phone' market stinks.

Japan and Europe are leagues ahead.

What an extraordinary unenlightened comment. 3G IS available in the US and I have used it. It is not leagues ahead-- that might be 4G when it comes. There is certainly nothing to write home about re: UK telcoms, so am not sure what your point is but if you have one or any, please detail them clearly without the editorial content. It might educate us poor Yanks.

On a more logical note, the inclusion of the International button indicates an overseas launch and the firmware number goes along with a significant update.

2ms
Sep 14, 2007, 12:20 PM
And every interface Nokia has made was laughable compared to the iPhone.

Maybe they should stop chatting and start producing phones without horrible interfaces.

Woah there I wasn't trying to cause flaming. I was just saying that that is the perception of Europeans in general. The Finns that didn't work for Nokia were European citizens/consumers and the Nokia guys were from the biggest cell phone company in the world and complete dominator of Europe and Asia.

I mentioned tham not to compare Nokia phones to iPhone, but merely to share the European perspective.

Anyway, iPhone may have easily best interface, sure, but I'd say Nokia is the second most famous for good interfaces -- they're certainly the most widely copied. Just so you know, I do not own a Nokia.

Small White Car
Sep 14, 2007, 12:23 PM
No, but at that price it has to be dirt cheap to compete with other offerings.
For example, a HTC Touch smartphone with unlimited internet access (2.5G) costs 22,- a month. with a 2 year plan the phone is free, with a 1 year plan the phone is 89 euro's.

How is apple going to compete with that ?

By including a Eur 299 iPod Touch in with the phone part?

That's what you're missing. The iPhone doesn't compete with other smart phones. It competes with buying a small cell phone and an iPod and carrying them both. They have to convince people that it's better to buy one device instead of 2.

SpitfireMKv
Sep 14, 2007, 12:23 PM
Guys I just wanted to put the record straight that the concept of 3G is slightly misconceived in the US and most parts of the world for that matter. 3G does provide fast data access to the internet for handheld devices however, most new devices rely on EDGE as this out performs '3G' services hands down.

For example here in asia we run EDGE networks at 7.5M asymmetric which is faster than most countries standard broadband connections. As a result I wouldn't be surprised if apple looked to tweak their software to handle the faster EDGE networks in asia first rather than building a full overhaul with 3G (video services). It makes sense and this is what I suspect will be the case for the European market who are currently undertaking EDGE network upgrades.

But then again I could be totally wrong! :)

Aaargh!
Sep 14, 2007, 12:26 PM
(...)
I don't know what country you live in, but if it has a small population, I think you're going to have to wait a while. It's not like anyone has anything against you; it's just economics.

But there is no reason to launch per-country, none of the other manufacturers do this. Besides, waiting is not an option, other manufacturers are releasing new phones almost on a weekly basis. People get a new phone (on average) every 12 months. By the time it hits the market in my country it's seriously outdated. I'm really overdue for a new phone myself. In hindsight, I should have gotten a new one, by the time the iPhone is available that one would have been obsolete.

Secondly, Apple will not release a crippled phone in Europe. A lot of people know that Europe is more demanding, and Apple will plan accordingly. Jobs is no fool.

I sure hope so, the current offering is not competitive. I'd like Apple to succeed in changing the cellphone business.

Lastly, the price is based on exchange rate costs and overall higher costs in Europe. Taxes and Minimum wage tend to be higher in Europe, so Apple is probably planning accordingly.
Sure, but the dollar isn't worth the paper it's printed on (the euro is at 1,38 at the moment I think) so even if they did $1 = 1 like they do with Mac's we're paying almost 40% more.

weckart
Sep 14, 2007, 12:27 PM
Lastly, the price is based on exchange rate costs and overall higher costs in Europe. Taxes and Minimum wage tend to be higher in Europe, so Apple is probably planning accordingly.

Oh, please! Wages etc have nothing whatsoever to do with the pricing of the iPhone in Europe. At most, it would be the cost of obtaining regulatory approval. Considering this is a commodity item, which is expected to sell in high quantities, distribution costs are marginal at best, especially if ordered online from the same Chinese factories shipping to US customers.

Apple will price higher in Europe, so that it can price lower at home. That is all.

sananda
Sep 14, 2007, 12:27 PM
So if the 3G coverage is not there in most states, why should Apple put it into the iPhone?



because there are other countries in the world. have a look at an atlas.

Aaargh!
Sep 14, 2007, 12:29 PM
By including a Eur 299 iPod Touch in with the phone part?

That's what you're missing. The iPhone doesn't compete with other smart phones. It competes with buying a small cell phone and an iPod and carrying them both. They have to convince people that it's better to buy one device instead of 2.
Where have you been the last few years ? that is EXACTLY what other manufacturers have been offering for years now. E.g. the SonyEricsson Walkman phones. Samsung has multimedia phones, they even have one that plays DivX. Same goes for Nokia. A media player on your phone is not an innovative feature, it's an essential one, people expect no less.

nickbates
Sep 14, 2007, 12:31 PM
No, but at that price it has to be dirt cheap to compete with other offerings.
For example, a HTC Touch smartphone with unlimited internet access (2.5G) costs 22,- a month. with a 2 year plan the phone is free, with a 1 year plan the phone is 89 euro's.

How is apple going to compete with that ?

Easy, by offering an elegant and simple user interface like they've always done which creates an awesome user experience.

You sound like the same "naysayers" that doubted the iPhone would ever sell big here in the U.S., and yet, despite other phones having better "specs" and offering more features (i.e., GPS, 3G, real keyboard, etc., etc.) the iPhone still made a big splash, is selling quite well and is now the new standard that other phone makers are already trying to copy... all because of that one thing Apple does best, the user experience.

Same was said for the original iPod (it was over priced, didn't have all the features of it's competitors, didn't store as much) and yet it went on to become the most successful consumer electronic device capturing a large majority of the market share...

... so stop with all the negativity and doubting. Whatever Apple does with the iPhone in Europe, it will work and people will [happily] buy it in droves. I'll put money on it!

Small White Car
Sep 14, 2007, 12:33 PM
Where have you been the last few years ? that is EXACTLY what other manufacturers have been offering for years now. E.g. the SonyEricsson Walkman phones. Samsung has multimedia phones, they even have one that plays DivX. Same goes for Nokia. A media player on your phone is not an innovative feature, it's an essential one, people expect no less.

The MP3 player existed before the iPod. The iPod managed to become popular because it was easier to use and featured more space than the competition at the time.

Near as I can tell the iPhone has the EXACT same advantage over other media phones. Even that phone a year or so back that worked with iTunes was heavily critisized for not being very good at it.

So I suppose things could come out differently than they did for the iPod, but it seems to me that people like ease-of-use the same whether it's an iPod or a cell phone.

Small White Car
Sep 14, 2007, 12:35 PM
because there are other countries in the world. have a look at an atlas.

Apple should sell 3G phones in the U.S. because other countries have 3G.

Explain that one to me slower, please. :confused:

joe8232
Sep 14, 2007, 12:35 PM
because there are other countries in the world. have a look at an atlas.

LOL! But as Miss South Carolina pointed out many US Americans don't own an Atlas!

I am still not sure how well the iPhone will be received here in Europe especially if it doesn't have 3g. I am on an orange contract here in the UK paying 30 a month and I wouldn't expect to have to pay for a phone on top of that!

nickbates
Sep 14, 2007, 12:37 PM
Where have you been the last few years ? that is EXACTLY what other manufacturers have been offering for years now. E.g. the SonyEricsson Walkman phones. Samsung has multimedia phones, they even have one that plays DivX. Same goes for Nokia. A media player on your phone is not an innovative feature, it's an essential one, people expect no less.

Yes, those other manufacturers keep cramming more and more features into their phones that most people never use or don't know how to access. The one thing they DON'T do is innovate with their user interfaces or their OS. THIS is why the iPhone works despite it's shortcomings. The vast majority of average cell phone users want something that is simple, elegant and that works.

cookie1105
Sep 14, 2007, 12:38 PM
I for one really....really want one. But if a 3G release is as far away as thinksecret reckon, then I may as well just get one from the states, unlock it and put a prepaid card in it.

That way by the time the 16GB, 3G edition arrives in scandinavia I'll be ready for a new phone anyway. ;)

Just have to wait and see what comes out on tuesday.

So people can get an idea of 3G coverage over here, below the signal coverage map for Zealand. Notice nearly the whole of Copenhagen is covered by up to 3.0 MBit/s

Project
Sep 14, 2007, 12:41 PM
No, but at that price it has to be dirt cheap to compete with other offerings.
For example, a HTC Touch smartphone with unlimited internet access (2.5G) costs 22,- a month. with a 2 year plan the phone is free, with a 1 year plan the phone is 89 euro's.

How is apple going to compete with that ?

Of all the phones Apple has to worry about, the HTC Touch would be near thebottom of the list. Its already outsold it worldwide via sales in the States alone.

My mother does not even have a computer yet she knows what the iPhone is and is impressed by the apparent ease of use. Yet she has probably never even heard of HTC.

md63
Sep 14, 2007, 12:42 PM
Apple simply doesen't know what foreign exchange is. It's all just money units. 399$ = 399 As simple as that. :D
iPod Touch Germany (http://store.apple.com/Apple/WebObjects/germanstore.woa/wa/RSLID?nnmm=browse&mco=42C0467A&node=home/ipod/ipod_touch) = iPod Touch USA (http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?nnmm=browse&mco=FDC8CDFF&node=home/ipod/ipod_touch)

So an iPhone for 399 is absolutely possible


Don't European prices include VAT? US prices don't include state sales taxes. If German VAT is 19% :eek: then the price is not far apart.

German Price (pretax) - 399 *(1-19%)= 323 = $448 vs. $399 for US.

Fortunately our sales taxes are no where near that level. :)

sananda
Sep 14, 2007, 12:47 PM
Apple should sell 3G phones in the U.S. because other countries have 3G.

Explain that one to me slower, please. :confused:

did i say apple should sell 3G phones in the US?????? no. evidently you are confused.

LOL! But as Miss South Carolina pointed out many US Americans don't own an Atlas!

I am still not sure how well the iPhone will be received here in Europe especially if it doesn't have 3g. I am on an orange contract here in the UK paying 30 a month and I wouldn't expect to have to pay for a phone on top of that!

and because we get the phones free at the beginning we essentially think of them as disposable. we don't want that for iphone!! it's too nice to go in that category. and i think apple are right not to apply existing mobile phone business models to iphone.

Fabio_gsilva
Sep 14, 2007, 12:51 PM
If apple wants to compete in the cellphone market, they need to get their ***** together, the rest of the world is not like the US. We'll need a new model at least every 3 months and they need to be up-to-date technology wise. Otherwise SonyEricsso, Nokia and Samsung are going to run circles around them.

Well, they're in the market for years and ever even tought of a device with such beautiful interface and design like the iPhone... I think that Apple is pretty safe at least for a year with this very model of 2g cell phone.

Unspeaked
Sep 14, 2007, 12:54 PM
Err... it's not a phone...

Er, you're right - it's an iPhone minus the camera, bluetooth, speaker, etc for almost the same price... and as I said, it's selling well!

If it can sell, why can't the iPhone without 3G?

CalBoy
Sep 14, 2007, 12:56 PM
Anyway, iPhone may have easily best interface, sure, but I'd say Nokia is the second most famous for good interfaces -- they're certainly the most widely copied. Just so you know, I do not own a Nokia.

Ugh, sorry, but I hate Nokia interfaces. I used to have a Nokia, and the damn menus drove me crazy. Samsung on the other hand makes nice phones and has good menus. I know I know, off topic, but personally, I would pick a Samsung over a Nokia.

So people can get an idea of 3G coverage over here, below the signal coverage map for Zealand. Notice nearly the whole of Copenhagen is covered by up to 3.0 MBit/s

Your post brought up an interesting thought into my head: logistics. Europe and Japan are much smaller than the US in terms of land. I think that factors into newer services being offered. Companies in Europe can lace the landscape with towers to give people service everywhere. The same feat would cost a lot more in the US because of the geography here. Just a thought.

joe8232
Sep 14, 2007, 12:56 PM
Er, you're right - it's an iPhone minus the camera, bluetooth, speaker, etc for almost the same price... and as I said, it's selling well!

If it can sell, why can't the iPhone without 3G?

Umm, because you are not paying 35+ a month for it :confused:

Small White Car
Sep 14, 2007, 12:57 PM
did i say apple should sell 3G phones in the US?????? no. evidently you are confused.

Someone was saying that 3G phones in the U.S. aren't really needed right now.

You simply told them to get an Atlas.

I guess I really have no idea what you meant by that, then.

Fabio_gsilva
Sep 14, 2007, 12:59 PM
Don't European prices include VAT? US prices don't include state sales taxes. If German VAT is 19% :eek: then the price is not far apart.

German Price (pretax) - 399 *(1-19%)= 323 = $448 vs. $399 for US.

Fortunately our sales taxes are no where near that level. :)


Well, think about Brazil:

18% VAT, and 35% more or less of other taxes...

It's cruel, man...:(

Unspeaked
Sep 14, 2007, 01:07 PM
Umm, because you are not paying 35+ a month for it :confused:

Ok, so you prove that someone without a cell phone already probably won't buy an iPhone.

What you don't prove is that somebody with a cell phone already won't switch to an iPhone.

I think 3G coverage is far less important than some picky posters on this thread think, even in Europe. 3G is fairly widespread in the large US cities and you don't see many people complaining about the current iPhone not being compatible.

People aren't buying the iPhone only to use 3G. They're buying it for the interface, they're buying it to make calls, they're buying it because it's a cool, trendy thing to have. 3G compatability does not play a hand in any of these reasons.

If 1 out of 10 people in Europe who'd like to buy it don't because it lacks 3G, it's no big loss. They'll simply grab one of the 3G models that comes out in '08.

It's win-win for Apple.

aswitcher
Sep 14, 2007, 01:08 PM
I am really curious about the plans and locking to networks. I wonder how well that will go in Europe.

sananda
Sep 14, 2007, 01:09 PM
Someone was saying that 3G phones in the U.S. aren't really needed right now.

You simply told them to get an Atlas.

I guess I really have no idea what you meant by that, then.

yes...this thread about introducing iphone in european countries. some people were posting that 3G is very important in europe. and then that person you mention said there was no need for 3G in iphone as there isn't really much 3G in the US. so i pointed out that there are other countries in the world. we are talking about iphone in europe.

Unspeaked
Sep 14, 2007, 01:09 PM
Well, think about Brazil:

18% VAT, and 35% more or less of other taxes...

It's cruel, man...:(

Our $1,000 per month health care helps bring some parity to these things :(

Cloudsurfer
Sep 14, 2007, 01:10 PM
Any word yet on it being sold unlocked? Isn't that mandatory in certain European countries?

Yes, it is. At least, it is here in the Netherlands. Your provider has to be able to unlock it one year after you purchased the phone with their plan.

Project
Sep 14, 2007, 01:10 PM
I think 3G coverage is far less important than some picky posters on this thread think, even in Europe. 3G is fairly widespread in the large US cities and you don't see many people complaining about the current iPhone not being compatible.

People aren't buying the iPhone only to use 3G. They're buying it for the interface, they're buying it to make calls, they're buying it because it's a cool, trendy thing to have. 3G compatability does not play a hand in any of these reasons.

If 1 out of 10 people in Europe who'd like to buy it don't because it lacks 3G, it's no big loss. They'll simply grab one of the 3G models that comes out in '08.

It's win-win for Apple.

Finally, a voice of reason amongst this 'EU iPhone MUST be 3G' madness.

Unspeaked
Sep 14, 2007, 01:11 PM
yes...this thread about introducing iphone in european countries. some people were posting that 3G is very important in europe. and then that person you mention said there was no need for 3G in iphone as there isn't really much 3G in the US. so i pointed out that there are other countries in the world. we are talking about iphone in europe.

I think the fellow you're referring to was trying to say - rightly so - that Apple would like to keep 1 model iPhone on the assembly line, and thus keep costs down.

That being the case, if they were to release a 3G phone in Europe, they'd probably switch the US model over at the same time, due to manufacturing synergies.

Cloudsurfer
Sep 14, 2007, 01:13 PM
Don't European prices include VAT? US prices don't include state sales taxes. If German VAT is 19% :eek: then the price is not far apart.

German Price (pretax) - 399 *(1-19%)= 323 = $448 vs. $399 for US.

Fortunately our sales taxes are no where near that level. :)

European prices always include VAT. Here in the Netherlands that's 19% (soon to be 20%).

CalBoy
Sep 14, 2007, 01:13 PM
But there is no reason to launch per-country, none of the other manufacturers do this. Besides, waiting is not an option, other manufacturers are releasing new phones almost on a weekly basis. People get a new phone (on average) every 12 months. By the time it hits the market in my country it's seriously outdated. I'm really overdue for a new phone myself. In hindsight, I should have gotten a new one, by the time the iPhone is available that one would have been obsolete.

Well, I'm not sure how wireless companies work in Europe, but I think Apple wants a deal with each carrier, similar to the one they got with ATT. Other manufacturers don't do this because they don't demand $9 per month per phone that's been activated. This profit sharing scheme might require country by country contracts. Don't worry about it being outdated. It won't be by the time it gets there.


Sure, but the dollar isn't worth the paper it's printed on (the euro is at 1,38 at the moment I think) so even if they did $1 = €1 like they do with Mac's we're paying almost 40% more.

Actually, the US dollar is printed on some high quality cotton, and goes through several stages before it's ready to be used. We saw an interesting video on this in my econ class. Nonetheless, no currency is worth the amount that's printed on it (with the notable exception of the US penny, which is a drain on the Bureau of Engraving and Printing), otherwise, the concept of seigniorage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seigniorage) wouldn't work;) OK, econ lesson aside, Europeans will always pay more (by a little) because that market is more expensive. Using your own numbers, let's look at Apple's situation.

iPhone in the US sells for $400. In order to get similar margins in Europe, Apple is going to have to account for more taxes (argue all you want, Europe does have higher taxes) and is going to have to account for greater employee costs, land costs (property is more expensive in Europe, whether it's leased or bought), and regulatory policies. To be nice, let's say that all of these factors add up to be about 15%, basically, it costs 15% more to get a product to market in Europe than it does in the US. Now, factor in the exchange rate fee that Apple is going to pay (even with a bulk rate, they're looking at something around 4%-ish), and finally factor in the possibility of a change in exchange rates. Suppose the Euro falls relative to the dollar in the next few months? Apple has to be prepared for that; customers won't be happy if they go to the store and find a different price on the iPhone every week. The price point allows Apple to keep prices stable without having to worry too much about what could happen.

Oh, please! Wages etc have nothing whatsoever to do with the pricing of the iPhone in Europe. At most, it would be the cost of obtaining regulatory approval. Considering this is a commodity item, which is expected to sell in high quantities, distribution costs are marginal at best, especially if ordered online from the same Chinese factories shipping to US customers.

Apple will price higher in Europe, so that it can price lower at home. That is all.
I'll defer to my comments from above:)

European prices always include VAT. Here in the Netherlands that's 19% (soon to be 20%).
The question is whether the people who disclosed this news to us know that. Remember, they might have forgotton;)

nickane
Sep 14, 2007, 01:16 PM
This 3G nonsense has to stop. There are a lot more ppl still on 2G in the UK than most ppl seem to acknowledge. Most of them don't know what 3G is. I've had a 3G phone for over 3 years. The battery life on them is much less. There is no way Steve can just bung in 3G without damaging battery life to the point where the iphone doesn't stay on long enough to play a whole feature film.

The V3 razr still sells far better as a 2G phone than its thicker 3G cousin. It may now come free with a contract, but when it came out it cost a fair bit and its not that old a phone. Nobody uses 3G on their phones anyways. The data cards do well, but UMTS on a smartphone works out quite expensive for anything but lite browsing. If I had a 3G phone with wifi, I doubt I would use its 3G capabilities much. Better off just paying a monthly fee for the cloud and having wifi everywhere in central London.

The price premium seems in line with the rest of apple's foreign pricing policy. They don't need to put in any new features. To say that apple needs to bring out new models as often as Ericsson et al is laughable given their policy on updating computers relative to Dell & co, which, if anything, has given way to longer intervals between refreshes since the announcement of this phone.

Apple will make its own rules, update when it wants to update and hold back features for generations longer than its competitors, just like in every other sector it thrives in. People will want their product, period.

sananda
Sep 14, 2007, 01:17 PM
I think the fellow you're referring to was trying to say - rightly so - that Apple would like to keep 1 model iPhone on the assembly line, and thus keep costs down.

That being the case, if they were to release a 3G phone in Europe, they'd probably switch the US model over at the same time, due to manufacturing synergies.


i don't think he was saying that. if he were, i would agree with him.

Fabio_gsilva
Sep 14, 2007, 01:19 PM
But there is no reason to launch per-country, none of the other manufacturers do this. Besides, waiting is not an option, other manufacturers are releasing new phones almost on a weekly basis. People get a new phone (on average) every 12 months. By the time it hits the market in my country it's seriously outdated. I'm really overdue for a new phone myself. In hindsight, I should have gotten a new one, by the time the iPhone is available that one would have been obsolete.

IMHO, a eletronic device is not obsolete because it was launched a year or two ago. It will become obsolete if another device launched before or after its launch date could handle much more tasks with greater capacity, less power comsumption, easier of use, generating a lap in quality that the previous device lost all or at least most reason to co-exist.

Obsolescence is a concept that must be better used for everybody. All big companies are doing with cell phones is to put more colors in the screen and more functions in the cell phone. This does not make any phone with a year or two completely obsolete.

It will make calls, send sms, take pictures and more like a new one, just with some inferior quality.

A revolutionary device that is affordable to everybody and brings a lot of new tech, and a new better way of doing things makes even near future releases obsoletes.

SO, iPhone made a lot of phones in the market and to be launched obsolete.

matznentosh
Sep 14, 2007, 01:22 PM
Besides, waiting is not an option, other manufacturers are releasing new phones almost on a weekly basis. People get a new phone (on average) every 12 months. By the time it hits the market in my country it's seriously outdated. I'm really overdue for a new phone myself. In hindsight, I should have gotten a new one, by the time the iPhone is available that one would have been obsolete.

This is one area where people misunderstand Apple's business model. Go read Roughlydrafted for an analysis of how in the US cell phones are given away as a way of hiding true cost of ownership (that is, the contract cost dwarfs the cost of any phone) and the result of giving away cheesy phones is that people expect them to be pieces of junk and want to replace them - for free - every 12 months. That is not what Apple is doing, they're not giving away iPhones so you'll sign up with ATT. They want you to sign up with ATT so you will BUY an iPhone from Apple.

Apple does not sell the iPhone for a subsidized price. That means Apple does NOT expect you to replace your own phone in a few months. Note Apple has said value will continue to be added by free software updates over the life of your iPhone. It means Apple sees the iPhone as a valuable item worth paying for. Obviously they are betting it will be worth what they charge, and for unclear reasons they decided to slash the price here in the US presumably to make it the right price for more people.

Again, the mistake is to look at the current business model and then see if Apple has the same items on the check list, for the same price. Apple, since it recreated itself, has repeatedly invented new business models that use new rules. That's why comparing iPods to other mp3 players don't work. The iPod will not compete on how many different tasks it performs. It competes by making a product that limits the number of qualities and strives to make those qualities work intuitively and easily. Elegance is what Apple strives for, and it gets it most of the time, and in that arena, elegance, beats the pants off of all competitors. Elegance is not just something pretty, or just something simple. It's the combination of form and function. And unlike Bang and Olafson (sp?), which takes regular phones, or regular stereos, and makes them really pretty and simple to use, Apple actually creates new tasks, new ways of doing things. iMovie is an example of a new way of making home movies, doesn't use the old techniques of constructing movies

So the iPhone can't be compared to Nokia (or whatever) phones really. It's doing something different. It does that elegantly. It will need to be judged only on its own merits, and consumers will do the voting. Is it too expensive? Is it practical? Will it do something they need? Not, is it a better Nokia, not why is it more expensive than another cell phone that plays mp3's (crappily), not, why doesn't it have a 5 megapixel camera with autofocus and zoom lens.

Fabio_gsilva
Sep 14, 2007, 01:22 PM
Our $1,000 per month health care helps bring some parity to these things :(

Good God! :eek:

On the other side, well, at least you have healthcare...

I hate Governments!:D

gugy
Sep 14, 2007, 01:28 PM
3G in the USA iPhone will be nice, but I really want 16GB storage NOW at $499!:eek::D

sananda
Sep 14, 2007, 01:28 PM
@ matznentosh: excellent post!

reverie
Sep 14, 2007, 01:28 PM
Will you people never learn?! Euro prices are quoted with sales tax (VAT), US prices are quoted without sales taxes. VAT in Germany is 19 %, so at 399 € incl. VAT the iPhone's comparable price point would be 335 € net which is not 40 % more than in the US, but only 16.5 % more.

2ms
Sep 14, 2007, 01:29 PM
I have to disagree because Japan's technology will eat the iPhone alive

What the hell are you talking about? Sanyo phones are going to eat the iPhone alive? I don't think there are even any Japanese network manufacturer's. If there are, their certainly tiny players compared to Nokia, Qualcomm, Seimens. Sony/Ericson is really Ericson -- they just got bought out after a couple years of losing all their money in the early part of decade -- the development is in Sweden

rjwill246
Sep 14, 2007, 01:55 PM
This is one area where people misunderstand Apple's business model.

You have nailed it! It is interesting to see all the Euro/Asian comments about a device that has yet to be touched by the commentators. It is clear that the crippled throwaway 3G phone is the ideal piece of mediocrity that all/most of these people want. It is NOT, however, the way Apple sees it-- nor I, as an Apple customer. This is a long term phone that does incredible things and, once true 3rd party apps abound, it will be a stunning replacement/adjunct for my laptop. I use it way more than I ever imagined the day I got it.

The rubbishy arguments about 3G etc is just that... rubbish. Now, when 6+ megs download on 4G is de rigeur universally available and reliable and does not cause battery meltdown, then it would be time to pop the champagne and buy the next version. Til then 2.5 with EDGE is perfectly workable. And wireless is reasonably available!!

Meanwhile, people who insist on 3G can have it--- but not yet on an iPhone... so why complain?? Get the latest Nokia!!! Clearly, the iPhone will not impress you.

CmdrLaForge
Sep 14, 2007, 02:05 PM
I only care about the plans. With the plans in the US I would never ever touch an iPhone

manu chao
Sep 14, 2007, 02:22 PM
Don't European prices include VAT? US prices don't include state sales taxes. If German VAT is 19% :eek: then the price is not far apart.
German Price (pretax) - 399 *(1-19%)= 323 = $448 vs. $399 for US.


Almost, it is 399/1.19 = 335 = $465
(with today's exchange rate, a year ago 335 would have been only $425).

retroneo
Sep 14, 2007, 02:39 PM
Your post brought up an interesting thought into my head: logistics. Europe and Japan are much smaller than the US in terms of land. I think that factors into newer services being offered. Companies in Europe can lace the landscape with towers to give people service everywhere. The same feat would cost a lot more in the US because of the geography here. Just a thought.

Australia's the same size as the US. We've got a 14.4Mbit HSDPA network that covers over 98.8% of the population and over one quarter of the land mass.

And to top it off it was built in 10 months from concept to completion. An average of one base station activated every 25 minutes, day and night.

There are three other city-only 3.6Mbit HSDPA networks here too.

If it can be done here, it can be done there...

e-coli
Sep 14, 2007, 02:44 PM
Not supporting 3G with a European launch is suicide.

No chance they're selling any at the price point they're chasing (which, for Apple products, are generally more expensive and have fewer usable features).

Total crap if it's true.

jonatron
Sep 14, 2007, 02:48 PM
Even if it doesnt have 3g i dont think it will affect sales very much. I think a lot of the people who will buy the iphone wont even care and dont even know what 3g is. Its just a buzzword to them. People aren't gonna be like 'no thanks it doesnt have 3g'. I know i'll be straight out to be buy one. Its a frickin iphone for god's sake.

Missing out on 3g isn't really going affect the overall usability for me. It would be nice to have but no deal breaker for me and definitely for the average joe. I have an n73 and i wouldnt really mind if it wasnt 3g. I barely get the 3g symbol anyway.

I think a lot of people just want to compare stats and dont really think about how that is gonna actually affect the overall user experience. e.g. the difference between 3.2 megapixels and 5 mp on a phone. The difference is laughable and the quality is so poor when compared to an actual camera, but thats getting away from the point. These things only really matter to the 10% or so who ACTUALLY care about these things and are generally the geekier side of the population. I really dont think I'm that bothered about it not being 3g and I genuinely believe i speak for the majority of people who buy phones.

nickbates
Sep 14, 2007, 03:19 PM
This is one area where people misunderstand Apple's business model. Go read Roughlydrafted for an analysis of how in the US cell phones are given away as a way of hiding true cost of ownership (that is, the contract cost dwarfs the cost of any phone) and the result of giving away cheesy phones is that people expect them to be pieces of junk and want to replace them - for free - every 12 months. That is not what Apple is doing, they're not giving away iPhones so you'll sign up with ATT. They want you to sign up with ATT so you will BUY an iPhone from Apple.

Apple does not sell the iPhone for a subsidized price. That means Apple does NOT expect you to replace your own phone in a few months. Note Apple has said value will continue to be added by free software updates over the life of your iPhone. It means Apple sees the iPhone as a valuable item worth paying for. Obviously they are betting it will be worth what they charge, and for unclear reasons they decided to slash the price here in the US presumably to make it the right price for more people.

Again, the mistake is to look at the current business model and then see if Apple has the same items on the check list, for the same price. Apple, since it recreated itself, has repeatedly invented new business models that use new rules. That's why comparing iPods to other mp3 players don't work. The iPod will not compete on how many different tasks it performs. It competes by making a product that limits the number of qualities and strives to make those qualities work intuitively and easily. Elegance is what Apple strives for, and it gets it most of the time, and in that arena, elegance, beats the pants off of all competitors. Elegance is not just something pretty, or just something simple. It's the combination of form and function. And unlike Bang and Olafson (sp?), which takes regular phones, or regular stereos, and makes them really pretty and simple to use, Apple actually creates new tasks, new ways of doing things. iMovie is an example of a new way of making home movies, doesn't use the old techniques of constructing movies

So the iPhone can't be compared to Nokia (or whatever) phones really. It's doing something different. It does that elegantly. It will need to be judged only on its own merits, and consumers will do the voting. Is it too expensive? Is it practical? Will it do something they need? Not, is it a better Nokia, not why is it more expensive than another cell phone that plays mp3's (crappily), not, why doesn't it have a 5 megapixel camera with autofocus and zoom lens.

Very well put and I think everyone should re-read this again!

Unspeaked
Sep 14, 2007, 03:20 PM
Not supporting 3G with a European launch is suicide.

No chance they're selling any at the price point they're chasing (which, for Apple products, are generally more expensive and have fewer usable features).

Total crap if it's true.

::sigh::

What's wrong with you people?

Do you have an aversion to reason?

The iPhone is not a regular phone! Regular phones are so indiscernible that you need to have something like 3G to set it apart from the next phone over which is the *exact* same in over other respect. What's the difference between the 2.5G and 3G Razr? Nothing! They look the same (except the 3G is a little thicker!), they have the same features, one just has 3G and the other doesn't.

Now take the iPhone... it's a whole other paradigm. People are tripping over themselves to buy a £269 iPod Touch. You're telling me that having the extra functionality of a camera, speaker, bluetooth and phone - plus data transfer for 2.5G levels - suddenly makes this not worth it?

The iPhone could not do high speed data AT ALL and it would still sell well - you know why? Because there's loads of other things it does, and does well, and that people think are worth the price. I know of folks with iPhones in the US who don't use Safari more than once a week. In fact, there's a good number of people who'd buy it if ALL IT DID was make phone calls with a multi-touch interface! That's how little some folks care about EDGE, 3G, 2G, etc.

If you still don't get it, you never will - at least, not until the sales figures come out and it's a huge success in Europe :rolleyes:

psingh01
Sep 14, 2007, 03:23 PM
How available is 3G in Europe? Is it everywhere? Or only in big cities?

I live in a fairly small city in the US that has AT&T 3G coverage (only place in the state), but as soon as you go out of town that means no more coverage . In town I have ready access to wifi which basically means 3G is useless for me most of the time unless I go on vacation to another part of the country which has 3G coverage (i.e. only a couple times a year)

nickbates
Sep 14, 2007, 03:25 PM
Australia's the same size as the US. We've got a 14.4Mbit HSDPA network that covers over 98.8% of the population and over one quarter of the land mass.

And to top it off it was built in 10 months from concept to completion. An average of one base station activated every 25 minutes, day and night.

There are three other city-only 3.6Mbit HSDPA networks here too.

If it can be done here, it can be done there...

Not quite the same. Australia only has 21 million people were as the U.S. has over 300 million people. Most of Australia's people are concentrated in a few key cities, where as in the U.S. we have thousands of cities with several companies all competing against each other to be "the standard". It's just not as easy to do this sort of thing here in the U.S.

theBB
Sep 14, 2007, 03:30 PM
Besides, you probably could not get the necessary local permits to build new towers in 10 months in a lot of US cities. The government here cannot force people to live with cell phone towers very easily.

willybNL
Sep 14, 2007, 03:34 PM
If Apple puts the phone onto the market @399 euro (which is much more than $399), and does not add anything to the phone, they can forget me as customer.

1) Everybody has 3G phone in Europe now. (It's almost standard on every phone here and network is very dence.)
2) US-companies should learn not to round there prices with euro=dollar. When the dollar was higher, they didn't do it, so they shouldn't do it now. In the end we Europeans always pay more and we should learn them not to.

@reverie: A customer should not care about VAT. If I would buy it from the USA, I wouldn't pay it either.
@owen-b: £399 euros ... what... you mess around with very differend currency's.

399.00 US Dollar (USD) = 287.56 Euro (EUR) = 198.82 Brits Pond (GBP)
553.62 US Dollar (USD) = 399 Euro (EUR) = 275.87 Brits Pond (GBP)
800.71 US Dollar (USD) = 577.08 Euro (EUR) = £399 Brits Pond (GBP)

Anything more than $475 (=+20% tax) is UNacceptable for me. So Eur 399,- is UNacceptable for me.

EagerDragon
Sep 14, 2007, 03:54 PM
could apples hook-up with t-mobile help US t-mobile costumers get visual viocemail that are using unlocked iphones?

The 8 ball says ..... "Maybe".

sananda
Sep 14, 2007, 03:58 PM
How available is 3G in Europe? Is it everywhere? Or only in big cities?

I live in a fairly small city in the US that has AT&T 3G coverage (only place in the state), but as soon as you go out of town that means no more coverage . In town I have ready access to wifi which basically means 3G is useless for me most of the time unless I go on vacation to another part of the country which has 3G coverage (i.e. only a couple times a year)

i don't have a 3G phone so i can't say how extensive the coverage is here in the UK. but i do know that there's hardly any free wifi around where i am. i read a lot of posters from the US saying that most of the time they are able to use their iphones on free wifi. here, every cafe i go into charges for wifi. even the british library charges members for wifi. the only free place i have come across is in the hayward gallery and the members' bar of the royal festival hall.

EagerDragon
Sep 14, 2007, 04:05 PM
I agree, I've heard 3G is a must.

Introducing a 3G, 16 Gb phone would also go a long way to explain the price cut on the current model.

Yes the current iPhone is really the new iPhone nano. The one with 16 Gig, GPS and 3G, is the iPhone which will endup eating the $200 markdown.

And the 8-ball says ...... "For sure".

Love that 8-ball, it is always accurate.

cobravap
Sep 14, 2007, 04:26 PM
What the hell are you talking about? Sanyo phones are going to eat the iPhone alive? I don't think there are even any Japanese network manufacturer's. If there are, their certainly tiny players compared to Nokia, Qualcomm, Seimens. Sony/Ericson is really Ericson -- they just got bought out after a couple years of losing all their money in the early part of decade -- the development is in Sweden

Um, i guess you didnt know that Sharp, Toshiba, Panasonic, and even Casio all make cell phones in japan. And they make a LOT of phones. And i think the OP's point was this technology and stuff has been around in cell phones for a while now. And is nothing new to Japan. I don't think it will do as well in japan as it has in america. I also dont think it will do well in Europe w/o help of 3g.

megfilmworks
Sep 14, 2007, 04:42 PM
Err...
Everyone knows that the US 'cell phone' market stinks.
I live in California and I spend a lot of time in Europe. There is a lot of issues with cell service in most of Europe (Scandanavia and Germany are the exception). I have much better service and consistency here in SoCal.
I agree Japan leads the way. But heck there a little teeny island.

joe8232
Sep 14, 2007, 04:43 PM
Ok, so you prove that someone without a cell phone already probably won't buy an iPhone.

What you don't prove is that somebody with a cell phone already won't switch to an iPhone.

I think 3G coverage is far less important than some picky posters on this thread think, even in Europe. 3G is fairly widespread in the large US cities and you don't see many people complaining about the current iPhone not being compatible.

People aren't buying the iPhone only to use 3G. They're buying it for the interface, they're buying it to make calls, they're buying it because it's a cool, trendy thing to have. 3G compatability does not play a hand in any of these reasons.

If 1 out of 10 people in Europe who'd like to buy it don't because it lacks 3G, it's no big loss. They'll simply grab one of the 3G models that comes out in '08.

It's win-win for Apple.
No what I prove is that people in Europe [myself included] are used to and quite frankly expect that if they are going to be paying at least 35 a month then they should get a phone of value around 350 for free.

farmboy
Sep 14, 2007, 04:48 PM
Australia's the same size as the US. We've got a 14.4Mbit HSDPA network that covers over 98.8% of the population and over one quarter of the land mass.

And to top it off it was built in 10 months from concept to completion. An average of one base station activated every 25 minutes, day and night.

There are three other city-only 3.6Mbit HSDPA networks here too.

If it can be done here, it can be done there...

First, who paid for it? Second, it's not the same as the US at all. Most of Australia's population is along the eastern and southern coasts, right? Not much in the entire center of the country--and I doubt that the center is equally covered by your new towers. As far as population, you have 20 million, we have 350 million--kind of hard to reach 98% coverage here, wouldn't you say? In the US our population is much more distributed, and many, many, many times more towers would need to be erected to achieve the same coverage. The cost is astronomical.

Bonte
Sep 14, 2007, 04:51 PM
The iPhone is a problem in most European country's (and canada??) because the 3G unlimited data contracts are nonexistent or extremely expensive, the iPhone needs unlimited data so this may well be the deciding factor to choose the next country's. Maybe not taking 3G because its to expensive.

Here in Belgium the GSM can't be coupled to a 2 year contract and sim-lock is also prohibited by law, guess we'll have to wait for the sim-free version in 2012. :confused:

megfilmworks
Sep 14, 2007, 04:51 PM
I am surprised how many people post that they will not get an iPhone for this reason or that and instead settle for disposable mediocrity. In some cases I think it is sour grapes because they are on very tight budgets. Not sure about the others. Oh well, all I know is that everyday I find more reasons why I love mine. I have one friend who still uses a typewriter because he doesn't like computers. To each his own.

megfilmworks
Sep 14, 2007, 04:54 PM
The iPhone is a problem in most European country's (and canada??) because the 3G unlimited data contracts are nonexistent or extremely expensive, the iPhone needs unlimited data so this may well be the deciding factor to choose the next country's. Maybe not taking 3G because its to expensive.

Here in Belgium the GSM can't be coupled to a 2 year contract and sim-lock is also prohibited by law, guess we'll have to wait for the sim-free version in 2012. :confused:Just got back from Benelux last week and had full functionality (not as good as SoCal, but close) and paid only $24 for 20megs of data (EDGE). Worked better than any phone I have ever taken to Europe, hands down.

bilbo--baggins
Sep 14, 2007, 05:01 PM
Secondly, Apple will not release a crippled phone in Europe. A lot of people know that Europe is more demanding, and Apple will plan accordingly. Jobs is no fool.


There are tonnes of rumours about O2 in the UK upgrading parts of their network to support EDGE, there are quotes from Steve Jobs saying that 3G components drain batteries too quickly and are too bulky currently to fit into the iPhone (just look at the 3G version of the Razr V3 - it looks ridiculous compared to the original thin version).

Jobs is no fool - but he's taken the tough decision that with current technology available they've opted against a bulky power hungry iPhone and gone with EDGE until they can come up with something better.

According to all the rumours, it is too soon for that 'something better' to be launched - more likely well into 2008.

PS. I currently have the 3G Sony Ericsson M600i - and I would choose the iPhone over this 3G phone any day. In order of importance/frequency of use for me it's 1) making calls 2) calendars/address book 3) web browsing 4) music. Just the nice interface and the ability to sync with iCal and Address book would make me buy the iPhone. Web browsing is so useless on the M600i it really doesn't matter what the theoretical speed is - the screen size is rubbish, the connection reliability is rubbish, the phone itself is slow and unresponsive. Data speed is NOT the most important factor for many people.

Bonte
Sep 14, 2007, 05:19 PM
Just got back from Benelux last week and had full functionality (not as good as SoCal, but close) and paid only $24 for 20megs of data (EDGE). Worked better than any phone I have ever taken to Europe, hands down.

The service is good here, i won't complain but 20 MB data on the iPhone is nothing. The iPhone uses 10 MB per day when your not using it, let alone surfing the web.

BASE Data Max
1 GB data included 25 euro per month and 2,5 euro per extra MB
GPRS/EDGE network, not 3G
http://www.base.be/BASE/nl/Home/Professioneel/BASE_Data/page.aspx/2190

Its a small country so roaming is much more of an issue, from 2,50 euro up to 15 euro per MB. This is also GPRS/EDGE.

http://www.base.be/BASE/nl/Home/Professioneel/Data_Roaming/page.aspx/2432

UMTS (3G) is even more expensive, it won't be 3G in Europe!

ngdesign
Sep 14, 2007, 06:01 PM
3G is overrated here in the states. AT&T's 3G coverage is not anything to write home about.

Here in New York state, there are only 2 places that have 3G coverage, NYC and the Hamptons. The rest of the state is on EDGE. Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse and Albany are all EDGE.

So if the 3G coverage is not there in most states, why should Apple put it into the iPhone?

I'm pretty happy with my 190kbps on EDGE as is because if I need faster speeds I just find myself a WiFi locale in a pinch.

I heard that the USA doesn't use 3G is because of the state security reason, is that correct? :confused:

swagi
Sep 14, 2007, 06:03 PM
And every interface Nokia has made was laughable compared to the iPhone.

Maybe they should stop chatting and start producing phones without horrible interfaces.

...but in case you haven't checked your facts, Nokia phones currently run a WebKit based browser for Symbian (which btw identifies as Safari on Macrumors) that at least can do FLASH!

And I won't brag about all the other business features, Nokia phones have.

Check the E series, check the N series, and then come back flaming.

Back to the topic: No 3G will kill iPhone sales despite its cult status. My 3G coverage in Germany is PERFECT (have yet to suffer from a dead spot), and I'm on O2.

ngdesign
Sep 14, 2007, 06:10 PM
Err... it's not a phone...



Everyone knows that the US 'cell phone' market stinks.

Japan and Europe are leagues ahead. 3G is almost total in Japan and over in the UK we have 3G in every city and good coverage elsewhere (someone will argue I am sure).


Europe's 3G is still far behind Hong Kong and Taiwan
The Japanese are already so far ahead that they are on iMode and they can buy cheap mobile phone out of the Pay-as-u-go Machines inside tube stations

Blacky
Sep 14, 2007, 06:15 PM
I'm from Belgium, and apple will have a rough time here, phones aren't alllowed to be bundled with any kind of contract, very phone sold here has to be unlocked. Which is a great thing, selling cellphones and providing cellphone services are entirely different markets that should compete in their own markets. So we can't get cheap(er) phones here from our providers. So either apple skips Belgium or they will have to sell us unlocked phones.

twoodcc
Sep 14, 2007, 06:19 PM
i think that this will become reality next week (at least an announcement). i just hope more is announced as well.....:apple:

shawnce
Sep 14, 2007, 06:26 PM
I heard that the USA doesn't use 3G is because of the state security reason, is that correct? :confused: This is not true.

Daeve
Sep 14, 2007, 07:35 PM
No what I prove is that people in Europe [myself included] are used to and quite frankly expect that if they are going to be paying at least 35 a month then they should get a phone of value around 350 for free.

Absolutely, most people I know were quite up for the Iphone in the UK - but not if they have to pay for it on top of a contract fee.

Every phone I've owned since 1997 (one a year) has been *totally free* on a contract, and mostly <25/month contracts. Currently i can easily get a Nokia N95 totally free on a 30 per month, 12 month contract. No way I'd tie in for 2 years with any phone (as it'd be outdated by then) at 30+ per month AND have to pay full cost for the phone! - it's ridiculous, noone here has ever done that on a contract.

I know a lot will - I'm sure it'll sell and be a qualified sucess, but I don't actually know anyone who will buy one personally, nearly all entered contracts with other phones after the US Iphone launch - put off the Iphone mainly due to no 3G, and cost on top of contract (even my non-tech Mum wanted a 3G phone a year ago). I was probably the most enthusiastic about the Iphone amongst my colleagues, but I'll only buy if its either free or <100 and no more than 35pm (which is still more than I've ever paid before for a mobile phone!).

CalBoy
Sep 14, 2007, 07:43 PM
Australia's the same size as the US. We've got a 14.4Mbit HSDPA network that covers over 98.8% of the population and over one quarter of the land mass.

And to top it off it was built in 10 months from concept to completion. An average of one base station activated every 25 minutes, day and night.

There are three other city-only 3.6Mbit HSDPA networks here too.

If it can be done here, it can be done there...
Point well taken; US phone companies are a bit lazy and too greedy. I guess the argument put forth by mobile companies that it would cost too much with little improvement is bull; Australia is nearly the same size and has less than a tenth of the population. If it was profitable there, it can be profitable here as well. Sometimes being an American has its downsides:(

Jobs is no fool - but he's taken the tough decision that with current technology available they've opted against a bulky power hungry iPhone and gone with EDGE until they can come up with something better.

Which is why I said the phone wouldn't be crippled; I never said it would have 3G;)

lamadude
Sep 14, 2007, 08:00 PM
The service is good here, i won't complain but 20 MB data on the iPhone is nothing. The iPhone uses 10 MB per day when your not using it, let alone surfing the web.



Indeed, I HOPE that if the iphone is ever introduced over here (because we are one of the countries where all phones have to be sold unlocked), that it will make the providers give a more reasonable rate for their 3G networks. The infrastructure is there, for example proximus claims they cover 80% of the Belgian population with their 3G network, but what is the point when the data plans are so rediculously expensive.
But the prices on 3G for laptops seem a lot more reasonable, I think that if the iPhone ever gets released here they'll use those prices or go cheaper than those. (40€ for unlimited data, it's not great but it's a start: http://business.proximus.be/nl/Mobile_Internet/index.html)

nemaslov
Sep 14, 2007, 08:03 PM
Mr Gorbachev, "Tear Down that Wall!"

megfilmworks
Sep 14, 2007, 10:50 PM
The service is good here, i won't complain but 20 MB data on the iPhone is nothing. The iPhone uses 10 MB per day when your not using it, let alone surfing the web.


I was in Europe for 2 weeks and used my iPhone constantly, visual voicemail,
read the NY Times and LA Times every morning on Safari, Google maps and Weather a few times a day, sent pics I took back to the famiy and friends and when I was at the airport to leave I still had not used my 20 megs. Don't know how you use 10 megs a day, but I had trouble using 2 megs a day. And it does not use data when you don't want (except for visual voicemail file push). That is a silly rumour. I've owned my iPhone since iDay and I can tell you there is a lot of misinformation out there. As far as 3g goes. I hated it on my RAZR, it is a battery hog!! Also I found a lot of free wifi in Amsterdam and Dublin, as well as Groningen.

j763
Sep 14, 2007, 11:12 PM
No 3G in iPhone would subject Apple to mockery from Europeans. anything other than 3G in Europe is worthless.

Agreed. European consumers are generally a little less taken by shiny boxes - more interested in functionality.

Concerning the price, I can't recall Germany's GST rate, but I remember it being notdisimilar to France's TVA of around 19.6% So, that may explain the price difference.

It's going to be interesting to see what Apple does regarding SIM locking. When the iPhone was released, I was of the immediate view that I was not going to pay AT&T $59.99 a month, when at a flat rate of 10c a minute - no monthly charges - my T-Mobile prepaid account was a much better deal given my usage (I don't make anything near 600 minutes worth of calls a month; often less than 100 - meaning I spend about $100 with T-Mobile USA total every year for network charges - not over $700 like AT&T's asking for), and would simply wait for a European or Aussie unlocked version, eBay it, and an uncrippled version of the phone. Well.... commercially, I don't think forcing people on expensive contracts in addition to paying quite a hefty price upfront will be very successful in Europe as others have pointed out (TCO of the iPhone in the US is still about $2000 on the cheapest plan - which is, of course, over 24 months). And then there are consumer protection laws - in Belgium, for example - which do not allow phones to be sold as SIM-locked.

hotdamn
Sep 15, 2007, 02:14 AM
Agreed. European consumers are generally a little less taken by shiny boxes - more interested in functionality.

Concerning the price, I can't recall Germany's GST rate, but I remember it being notdisimilar to France's TVA of around 19.6% So, that may explain the price difference.

It's going to be interesting to see what Apple does regarding SIM locking. When the iPhone was released, I was of the immediate view that I was not going to pay AT&T $59.99 a month, when at a flat rate of 10c a minute - no monthly charges - my T-Mobile prepaid account was a much better deal given my usage (I don't make anything near 600 minutes worth of calls a month; often less than 100 - meaning I spend about $100 with T-Mobile USA total every year for network charges - not over $700 like AT&T's asking for), and would simply wait for a European or Aussie unlocked version, eBay it, and an uncrippled version of the phone. Well.... commercially, I don't think forcing people on expensive contracts in addition to paying quite a hefty price upfront will be very successful in Europe as others have pointed out (TCO of the iPhone in the US is still about $2000 on the cheapest plan - which is, of course, over 24 months). And then there are consumer protection laws - in Belgium, for example - which do not allow phones to be sold as SIM-locked.

24 x 60 = 1440 + iPhone is around 400.

If anyone is wondering, the 399 price tag is INCLUDING taxes, 19% that is, in case of germany.

btw, I am a european customer, if you will, (just moved to canada), and my iPhone is currently being shipped here from the US. I couldn't care less about 3G or not. All the 3G phones I had were ****** to begin with.
I'd rather have a phone like the iPhone were the apps actually work the way they are advertised rather than just a feature checklist.

Hero33
Sep 15, 2007, 02:19 AM
I don't know how you guys on the other side of the world like their tech in their phones but over here, 3G is used pretty often in South East Asia.

The culture of close family ties and relatively reasonable 3G packages make sending MMS videos to family far away common place.

We used to have GPRS, but the tech became old real fast with all the cheap 3G phones flooding the market. Now even our maids carry phones with a camera for sending pictures and/or video with voice.

If its not used for communication, some use it for entertainment. We get a lot of ads that use MMS for local gameshows and trust me, people eat it up!

I'm waiting for the 16 gig iPhone after eeing the relatively dismal 16 gig size of the iPod touch (might as well buy the whole farm with phone built in!).

I really hope 3G is put into the iPhone in Europe as our phone tech is similar to Europe's (GSM, phones etc.)

Bonte
Sep 15, 2007, 02:59 AM
I was in Europe for 2 weeks and used my iPhone constantly, visual voicemail,
read the NY Times and LA Times every morning on Safari, Google maps and Weather a few times a day, sent pics I took back to the famiy and friends and when I was at the airport to leave I still had not used my 20 megs. Don't know how you use 10 megs a day, but I had trouble using 2 megs a day. And it does not use data when you don't want (except for visual voicemail file push). That is a silly rumour. I've owned my iPhone since iDay and I can tell you there is a lot of misinformation out there. As far as 3g goes. I hated it on my RAZR, it is a battery hog!! Also I found a lot of free wifi in Amsterdam and Dublin, as well as Groningen.

I think you used a lot of wifi, a NY Times page is typically 400k, Gmaps 500k up to 1MB or more and a photo is probably about 1MB. In my own country i do plan on using visual voicemail and push mail, 10 MB per day is nothing.

willybNL
Sep 15, 2007, 03:41 AM
Europe's 3G is still far behind Hong Kong and Taiwan
The Japanese are already so far ahead that they are on iMode and they can buy cheap mobile phone out of the Pay-as-u-go Machines inside tube stations


May I remind you NTT-DoCoMo tryed to work with KPN in the Netherlands for iMode... nobody bought it. We're not behind, we're just people that like to see it work before we try it. Like WAP: who really uses it, nobody, so why bother. Just get EDGE/UMTS and full internet. But videophone (over UMTS) seems to work just fine over here.

Note that some networks over here already disabled their EDGE network. HSDPA/UMTS = 90% of total country over here. So if it's a non-3G iPhone, it won't be KPN or Telfort in The Netherlands. Nice thing tough: every telecom operator has WiFi on every important corner, and they all work together http://portal.hotspotsvankpn.com/templates/dispatcher.asp?page_id=home_inet_uk

joe8232
Sep 15, 2007, 04:00 AM
Absolutely, most people I know were quite up for the Iphone in the UK - but not if they have to pay for it on top of a contract fee.

Every phone I've owned since 1997 (one a year) has been *totally free* on a contract, and mostly <25/month contracts. Currently i can easily get a Nokia N95 totally free on a 30 per month, 12 month contract. No way I'd tie in for 2 years with any phone (as it'd be outdated by then) at 30+ per month AND have to pay full cost for the phone! - it's ridiculous, noone here has ever done that on a contract.

I know a lot will - I'm sure it'll sell and be a qualified sucess, but I don't actually know anyone who will buy one personally, nearly all entered contracts with other phones after the US Iphone launch - put off the Iphone mainly due to no 3G, and cost on top of contract (even my non-tech Mum wanted a 3G phone a year ago). I was probably the most enthusiastic about the Iphone amongst my colleagues, but I'll only buy if its either free or <100 and no more than 35pm (which is still more than I've ever paid before for a mobile phone!).

Very well said! The fact that the iPhone has all this extra useability is irrelevant. The fact that the Nokia N95 sim free is around 400 and is free on most contracts is the problem apple will have!

aznkid25
Sep 15, 2007, 04:06 AM
Would it be a possibility that iTunes 8 would be released at the Paris Apple Expo? What do you think the chances of this happening?:apple:

FiveEcco
Sep 15, 2007, 04:13 AM
I really hope that the iPhone here in germany will be 3G. We have a very nice UMTS coverage here. And I hope it will hit the stores very soon. I CAN NOT WAIT ANYMORE!!! :)

winterspan
Sep 15, 2007, 05:14 AM
3G is overrated here in the states. AT&T's 3G coverage is not anything to write home about.

Here in New York state, there are only 2 places that have 3G coverage, NYC and the Hamptons. The rest of the state is on EDGE. Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse and Albany are all EDGE.

So if the 3G coverage is not there in most states, why should Apple put it into the iPhone?

I'm pretty happy with my 190kbps on EDGE as is because if I need faster speeds I just find myself a WiFi locale in a pinch.

Be careful not to generalize. What you mean is UTMS/HSDPA is overrated in the USA. Verizon/Sprint EV-DO 3G coverage is actually pretty good! Now I hate some of the ***** Verizon does with their phones and the unlimited internet price is abhorrent (39.95-59.95 depending on phone vs data card - sprint is $15 I think). Even where my parents live in a city of 30K in North IDAHO they have 3G coverage. Thats why Im SO PISSED OFF Verizon didn't take the deal with APPLE, Verizon is evil, but AT&T is just as bad and has TERRIBLE 3G coverage.

Which begs the question, does anyone know why we are like one of the ONLY fricken countries to use CDMA?

winterspan
Sep 15, 2007, 05:57 AM
Ugh, sorry, but I hate Nokia interfaces. I used to have a Nokia, and the damn menus drove me crazy. Samsung on the other hand makes nice phones and has good menus. I know I know, off topic, but personally, I would pick a Samsung over a Nokia.

Your post brought up an interesting thought into my head: logistics. Europe and Japan are much smaller than the US in terms of land. I think that factors into newer services being offered. Companies in Europe can lace the landscape with towers to give people service everywhere. The same feat would cost a lot more in the US because of the geography here. Just a thought.

This has been rehashed a thousand times, particulary with respect to wired telecommunications, e.g., "The USA doesn't have good broadband internet speeds cause its cost prohibitive to lay fiber optic cable in the huge land mass". This disinformation is sprayed out there by the telecom monopolies in this country!

Whether its about wired broadband or cellphone technology, the flaw in that argument is that the population density of the top 25 markets (or even top 100) in the United States is quite high, definitely high enough to warrant competitive broadband and cellphone technology. And yet besides the extremely limited rollout of Verizon FIOS, most of us are limited to a DUOPOLY of DSL/Cable for internet with abhorrent speeds for either and ridiculous prices and terms of service.

On the cellphone front, we are hardly any better. Indeed the CDMA 3G coverage isn't too bad in populated areas, but we are still much behind the latest technology and we pay out the **** for what we do get.

I don't mean to jump on you, but Im very passionate about this issue and wish to dispel any misconceptions about why the US is falling so behind in certain technological areas. I mean for GOD **** SAKE, WE BASICALLY DOMINATED THE LAST 40 YEARS OF TECHNOLOGY IN THIS COUNTRY AND NOW LOOK WHATS HAPPENING. The piece of *** corrupt Republican politicians sold us out to the telecoms long ago. I am so sick of that.

Im moving to Tokyo....

</rant>

koobcamuk
Sep 15, 2007, 06:46 AM
...drain batteries too quickly and are too bulky currently to fit into the iPhone (just look at the 3G version of the Razr V3 - it looks ridiculous compared to the original thin version).

http://www.pma-show.com/news_images/000014_sony_ericsson_w880_phone.jpg

Check it out...

http://www.sonyericsson.com/spg.jsp?cc=GB&lc=en&ver=4000&template=pip1&zone=pp&pid=10653

Battery life on this thing is amazing - I had one. It's also the thinnest phone I have ever owned.

Comparing a modern phone to the RAZR is not fair. I know americans love the damn thing, but it's over 3 years old now...

Europe's 3G is still far behind Hong Kong and Taiwan
The Japanese are already so far ahead that they are on iMode and they can buy cheap mobile phone out of the Pay-as-u-go Machines inside tube stations

Yes. Japan is far ahead. I totally agree. I am moving there in 3 years anyway...

numlock
Sep 15, 2007, 06:51 AM
Is there any site where its possible to see rates for 3G for all the countries?

tkermit
Sep 15, 2007, 07:06 AM
I was in Europe for 2 weeks and used my iPhone constantly, visual voicemail,
read the NY Times and LA Times every morning on Safari, Google maps and Weather a few times a day, sent pics I took back to the famiy and friends and when I was at the airport to leave I still had not used my 20 megs. Don't know how you use 10 megs a day, but I had trouble using 2 megs a day.

Just checked via Webkit Inspector with Flash disabled:
nytimes main page: 508kb
latimes main page: 687kb

So >1mb just to check the front pages, let alone read a specific article + google maps & sending pictures : hard to believe you didn't even get to 20mb in 2 weeks

noaccess
Sep 15, 2007, 07:18 AM
If the iPhone launched in Germany turns out to be the same non-3G version
that's out in the US... well, I hope it won't sell well at all. If it forces Apple to either update the thing or lower prices.

Just sayin'.

mr.suff
Sep 15, 2007, 10:18 AM
So right now I have a Nokia N80, wonderful specification, but doesn't work smoothly for whatever reason. It has 3G and is on the Orange UK network.
I do not get 3G coverage where I live now, I do when I go to college, or to a local city. It is not worth me keeping the phone in 3G mode purely because of the battery drain, as when it is not in a 3G area it constantly searches for one.
When I do need to use the browser on it, I am more than happy to use EDGE, the speeds aren't that bad and I am usually travelling so I have time to kill. The phone also has wi-fi so when I am near a usable hot-spot I can use that. If I am not near a wi-fi hot-spot I am usually near a computer. On the occasions I have used 3G for browsing I personally felt no gain in speed over EDGE.

So all in all a 3G iPhone would be of no benefit over an Edge based one. This goes for all people who are in similar circumstances than I.
Yes, it would be nice for a future proofed iPhone, but none of the networks in the UK seem to want to cover my area, and battery life would suffer.

Sorry for the reasonably long post, but I felt that I needed to put in my little bit.

cheers
matt

Mac Fly (film)
Sep 15, 2007, 10:18 AM
No 3G in iPhone would subject Apple to mockery from Europeans. anything other than 3G in Europe is worthless.
If it's not 3G I'm gonna laugh, then cry, then be very angry.

lewchenko
Sep 15, 2007, 10:53 AM
In the UK, I would say that nobody pays over £50 UK for a new contract phone these days. People expect them to be FREE if they are signing a contract which is £35 or more each month.

My Nokia E65 on launch day was free with my contract. Im sure there are people with bucket loads of spare cash who can justify the iphone, but it seems massively over priced for what is still essentially... a mobile phone.

Ubuntu
Sep 15, 2007, 11:20 AM
The iPod Touch isn't 3G and I'm sure they're selling plenty of those... ;)

The iPod touch isn't a phone.

And every interface Nokia has made was laughable compared to the iPhone.

Maybe they should stop chatting and start producing phones without horrible interfaces.

And maybe Apple should make more than one model, with more options, better cameras, etc.

gkarris
Sep 15, 2007, 11:25 AM
Rumors:

Europe will get the 16Gig 3G model...

We USA T-Mobile iPhone users welcome you.... ;)

CalBoy
Sep 15, 2007, 11:47 AM
This has been rehashed a thousand times, particulary with respect to wired telecommunications, e.g., "The USA doesn't have good broadband internet speeds cause its cost prohibitive to lay fiber optic cable in the huge land mass". This disinformation is sprayed out there by the telecom monopolies in this country!

Whether its about wired broadband or cellphone technology, the flaw in that argument is that the population density of the top 25 markets (or even top 100) in the United States is quite high, definitely high enough to warrant competitive broadband and cellphone technology. And yet besides the extremely limited rollout of Verizon FIOS, most of us are limited to a DUOPOLY of DSL/Cable for internet with abhorrent speeds for either and ridiculous prices and terms of service.

On the cellphone front, we are hardly any better. Indeed the CDMA 3G coverage isn't too bad in populated areas, but we are still much behind the latest technology and we pay out the **** for what we do get.

I don't mean to jump on you, but Im very passionate about this issue and wish to dispel any misconceptions about why the US is falling so behind in certain technological areas. I mean for GOD **** SAKE, WE BASICALLY DOMINATED THE LAST 40 YEARS OF TECHNOLOGY IN THIS COUNTRY AND NOW LOOK WHATS HAPPENING. The piece of *** corrupt Republican politicians sold us out to the telecoms long ago. I am so sick of that.

Im moving to Tokyo....

</rant>

Yes, nice rant, except that I already realized this when a kind Aussi gave me some info. Do read more of the thread before exploding;)

iAlan
Sep 15, 2007, 11:58 AM
Well, it will take longer for Canada because it's not a major market. Germany is the 2nd or 3rd largest consumer market behind the US. Japan is also up there. If Apple is going by a "large markets first" policy, then I'd say you're going to be waiting a bit longer.

BRING ON JAPAN!

I think Japan is Apple's 2nd biggest market and also the 2nd biggest cellphone market as well.

Q1 2008 can't come around sooner - which is the rumored timeframe for the iPhone in Japan.

I was in the US this week on business (at O'hare now waiting for a connecting flight back home to Tokyo) so got to visit an Apple Store Thursday and played around with an iPhone and just luved the thing! Can't wait!

Will be buying an iPod touch to tie me over!

Di9it8
Sep 15, 2007, 12:51 PM
the next best market for the iPhone is Japan.

Japan is the most sophisticated phone market in the world, at 2G the iPhone is just not ready, it needs to be 4/5G to compete successfully there:D

Di9it8
Sep 15, 2007, 12:56 PM
In the UK, I would say that nobody pays over 50 UK for a new contract phone these days. People expect them to be FREE if they are signing a contract which is 35 or more each month.

My Nokia E65 on launch day was free with my contract. Im sure there are people with bucket loads of spare cash who can justify the iphone, but it seems massively over priced for what is still essentially... a mobile phone.


I suspect that the contract that comes with the iPhone will subsidise the purchase cost as happens with every other new phone

zwida
Sep 15, 2007, 04:04 PM
Japan is the most sophisticated phone market in the world, at 2G the iPhone is just not ready, it needs to be 4/5G to compete successfully there:D

Which got me poking around on Wikipedia: "Besides this vagueness there is no definition to what 5G is but it will go beyond all preceding generations: 4G, 3G, 2G, and 1G wireless communication systems and is expected to start to be known before 2015."

Spectacular!

christian_k
Sep 15, 2007, 04:23 PM
So all in all a 3G iPhone would be of no benefit over an Edge based one. This goes for all people who are in similar circumstances than I.
Yes, it would be nice for a future proofed iPhone, but none of the networks in the UK seem to want to cover my area, and battery life would suffer.

cheers
matt

No, this is a bit different in Germany. No operator is going to upgrade the entire network to EDGE. Even T-Mobile announced they will only use EDGE in areas where they don't plan 3G in the near future. This means we probably won't ever have a lot EDGE coverage while 3G is widely available now. (I live in a small town with 20.000 people and there is good 3G coverage by all 4 operators.)
The operators prefer to put the money into 3G because the license was expensive and they want to use it and they don't wont to attract more data traffic to the GSM/EDGE networks because they allready have serious capacity problems in some areas.

So "in the middle of nowhere" the iPhone could get good EDGE connections, but in cities - where there is 3G - you have to use sloooooooooow GPRS.

I don't think battery life is such a KO. They could easily implement an "auto" mode. Let the phone stay in GSM/GPRS in standby mode or during ordinary phone calls, but switch to 3G when safari or smething is on.

With HSDPA even the iTunes wireless store could be used without WiFi.

Christian

mdriftmeyer
Sep 15, 2007, 04:48 PM
could apples hook-up with t-mobile help US t-mobile costumers get visual viocemail that are using unlocked iphones?

What part of 5 year bumper to bumper exclusive deal with AT&T do you not understand?

megfilmworks
Sep 15, 2007, 06:17 PM
I think you used a lot of wifi, a NY Times page is typically 400k, Gmaps 500k up to 1MB or more and a photo is probably about 1MB. In my own country i do plan on using visual voicemail and push mail, 10 MB per day is nothing.

I'm well aware of when I used wifi and when I was on edge. Pictures from the iPhone are not that large. You are estimating a little high. Yes you are right, I used wifi whenever I could as it seems to be everywhere. Can't wait to get back over! Never had a google map load anywhere near 500k either by the way. If you use EDGE or 3G exclusively I can see you running closer to your daily estimate, but who would want to, EDGE is slow and 3g is not a whole lot better. Apple must have some type of software cache going on web pages and google maps, I know they dumb down youtube for EDGE. All I know is what I used (I monitored my usage in Settings closely) and two weeks of data only cost me $24. By the way extra KB turn out to be around the same if you run over. Now, roaming charges @ $.99 a min and long distance, that is what gets to be expensive.
Good Luck, I hope you find the same when you get yours. By the way Bruges happens to be my girlfriend and mine's favorite small city in Europe. We try to get there at least once a year. My favorite large city is Stockholm.

thetacoman
Sep 15, 2007, 06:30 PM
Which got me poking around on Wikipedia: "Besides this vagueness there is no definition to what 5G is but it will go beyond all preceding generations: 4G, 3G, 2G, and 1G wireless communication systems and is expected to start to be known before 2015."

Before 2015? That's still a long way off...

ryanwarsaw
Sep 15, 2007, 09:16 PM
Before 2015? That's still a long way off...

We only expect to start to know in 2015. It is still too early to say.

Rot'nApple
Sep 15, 2007, 09:34 PM
If it's not 3G I'm gonna laugh, then cry, then be very angry.


5 Stages of Grief or what the iPhone has and doesn't have and whether to purchase one or not. The stages are...

denial (it doesn't have 3G???), anger (it doesn't have 3G!!!), bargaining (well, so it doesn't have 3G...), depression (why doesn't it have 3G???), and acceptance (who needs 3G!!!):D

ACCEPTANCE - Everyone posting that the possible upcoming launch of the iPhone in UK, Germany & France and elsewhere in Europe will be less than stellar forgets that at least you are talking about it. Because, for the most part, you are Apple enthusiasts, the Apple loyalist, the beta testers for Apple products, or just interested in the iPhone and want to see it in person. But what ever category you label yourself as, and for all your arguments that it doesn't have 3G this or MMS that, at least you are talking about it. And after the launch and people start buying and using it, you might take a second look and say, if I want the iPhone now, I'll have to accept it as it is and go out and buy one. So, enjoy it while waiting for the iPhone 2nd generation, that will hopefully have 3G this or MMS that.

Enjoy Apple's announcement tuesday:apple::apple::apple:

nubero
Sep 15, 2007, 09:39 PM
399 sounds a bit dodgy.. That's quite a lot of a price difference from the US version. If the EU version doesn't have any different hardware, then why spend some 150USD more on it?

that's nothing compared to adobe's creative suite which costs nearly 2.6 times the u.s. price here...

rva1
Sep 15, 2007, 09:59 PM
Any theories on when Apple will distribute the iPhone in ALL major markets?

rva1
Sep 15, 2007, 10:10 PM
I have to say that my experience with EDGE has been quite a pleasure. Now, I am sure that 3G would be faster, but I am able to do everything I want to do on my iPhone.

I have to say that having used Apples products since the 80's, I am QUITE used to hearing other "Intelligent" sources knock those products, even when the end-users find them to be superior. All I can say is, for this OR any other product: Using and Seeing is believing for me.

So right now I have a Nokia N80, wonderful specification, but doesn't work smoothly for whatever reason. It has 3G and is on the Orange UK network.
I do not get 3G coverage where I live now, I do when I go to college, or to a local city. It is not worth me keeping the phone in 3G mode purely because of the battery drain, as when it is not in a 3G area it constantly searches for one.
When I do need to use the browser on it, I am more than happy to use EDGE, the speeds aren't that bad and I am usually travelling so I have time to kill. The phone also has wi-fi so when I am near a usable hot-spot I can use that. If I am not near a wi-fi hot-spot I am usually near a computer. On the occasions I have used 3G for browsing I personally felt no gain in speed over EDGE.

So all in all a 3G iPhone would be of no benefit over an Edge based one. This goes for all people who are in similar circumstances than I.
Yes, it would be nice for a future proofed iPhone, but none of the networks in the UK seem to want to cover my area, and battery life would suffer.

Sorry for the reasonably long post, but I felt that I needed to put in my little bit.

cheers
matt

whistler72
Sep 15, 2007, 10:45 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/1C28 Safari/419.3)

if they sell it unlocked, I can see a lot them being sold in the us.

ErnieFrance4
Sep 15, 2007, 11:22 PM
I hope that the announcement is more than just the iphone for Europe. I know that the Brits would love to have some video content.

Plutonius
Sep 15, 2007, 11:59 PM
If the iPhone launched in Germany turns out to be the same non-3G version
that's out in the US... well, I hope it won't sell well at all. If it forces Apple to either update the thing or lower prices.

Just sayin'.

or stop selling it in Germany.

phatspider
Sep 16, 2007, 03:00 AM
Ive been using my (unlocked) US iphone on Vodafone UK and according to iphonenetworktest.com i'm getting data speeds of up to 375kbps. Now Vodafone doesnt even have edge so thats just GPRS speeds - which I think is none too shabby. certainly usable.

I also have a 3G router - basicaly a wireless router that takes a 3G data card. Its running HSDPA so capable of up to 1.4mbps so ive been testing out connecting via wifi to that on the iphone to see what the diff would be. Now, as expected its certainly quicker, but only up to about 700kbps max.

So I dont mind too much that 3G is missing for now. In the next revision i'd love to see 7.2mbps HSDPA but I can wait

princigalli
Sep 16, 2007, 03:56 AM
Unfortunately T-Mobile in Germany is not a company Germans particularly like. In reality all major German mobile phone companies are expensive and primitive if you compare with other European companies, but T-mobile is probably even worse. I thought until now that T-Mobile customers were mostly corporate because no individual would willingly pick them.

As for phones being unlocked, I don´t think so. I don´t know the law here concerning cell phones and competition, but I am quite sure it is nothing like Italy, France, or Belgium, where consumer protection is a more central issue in laws and politics.

So I don´t see why cell phone consumers would ever come to get more protection and competition laws than the USA, which is to say basically nothing.

VaDor
Sep 16, 2007, 05:16 AM
3G is overrated here in the states. AT&T's 3G coverage is not anything to write home about.

Here in New York state, there are only 2 places that have 3G coverage, NYC and the Hamptons. The rest of the state is on EDGE. Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse and Albany are all EDGE.

So if the 3G coverage is not there in most states, why should Apple put it into the iPhone?

I'm pretty happy with my 190kbps on EDGE as is because if I need faster speeds I just find myself a WiFi locale in a pinch.

Yeah but that is in the US.. here in Europe I have 100% 3G coverage and I don't want to go to a old technology that never was implemented here.

In Europe we step over EDGE , GPRS -> 3G. iPhone is great but for 399 ( 399 --> 552.655$ ), I would expect at least 3G!

CD3660
Sep 16, 2007, 06:02 AM
...just look at the 3G version of the Razr V3 - it looks ridiculous compared to the original thin version.

You obviously haven't seen the V3xx which has been out since late last year, is 3G, and very thin!


Jobs is no fool - but he's taken the tough decision that with current technology available they've opted against a bulky power hungry iPhone and gone with EDGE until they can come up with something better.


He is no fool for sure but I think that he was being economical with the facts when he dismissed the feasibility of 3G in the iPhone earlier this year.

The V3xx for example, is 3G, has excellent battery life and is very thin. If Motorola could achieve this at the end of last year, why couldn't Apple achieve it a few months later?

emotion
Sep 16, 2007, 07:22 AM
Yeah but that is in the US.. here in Europe I have 100% 3G coverage and I don't want to go to a old technology that never was implemented here.


I'm pretty sure nowhere in Europe has 100% coverage. The UK and Germany certainly don't have.

In the UK O2 now has EDGE. EDGE will have better coverage until 3G is built up to speeds of HSDPA (not 3.6 but 7.2/14.4 MBit/s) which will happen over the next year maybe. Just a theory though.

The justification for extra EU price might be 16GB capacity.

Project
Sep 16, 2007, 07:38 AM
You obviously haven't seen the V3xx which has been out since late last year, is 3G, and very thin!



He is no fool for sure but I think that he was being economical with the facts when he dismissed the feasibility of 3G in the iPhone earlier this year.

The V3xx for example, is 3G, has excellent battery life and is very thin. If Motorola could achieve this at the end of last year, why couldn't Apple achieve it a few months later?


The V3xx doesnt have a bright, battery sucking 3.5" screen or Wifi.

Compile 'em all
Sep 16, 2007, 08:04 AM
The V3xx for example, is 3G, has excellent battery life and is very thin. If Motorola could achieve this at the end of last year, why couldn't Apple achieve it a few months later?

I am sorry, did I miss something in your post?. You can't compare power consumption just like that. The iPhone has a HUGE screen compared to the V3xx for one thing. And it does a lot more than what the v3xx can. Just because the v3xx is 3G and has good battery life doesn't mean that a 3G iPhone will have a good battery life.


EDIT: Didn't see Project's post.

megfilmworks
Sep 16, 2007, 09:05 AM
The difference between 3g and EDGE is very small. I hated 3g on my Razr (battery hog, not that much faster in the real world and lacking in coverage) They are both safety nets when wifi is not available, like the analog sound track on a film with Dolby Digital. Forget 3G, develop wifi coverage!

b0ned0me
Sep 16, 2007, 09:37 AM
In the UK O2 now has EDGE. EDGE will have better coverage until 3G is built up to speeds of HSDPA (not 3.6 but 7.2/14.4 MBit/s) which will happen over the next year maybe. Just a theory though.

Yeah, EDGE which they seem to have recently added with a simple software upgrade to their base stations, specifically for the iPhone. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/09/14/o2_edge/
So just because 3G is widespread in a market (and in the UK it is), don't assume it will mean any changes to the iPhone.

And for everyone wittering about data costs - T-Mobile UK charges 7.50 on top of your voice contract for unlimited data access, which would make it an obvious choice for an unlocked iPhone......

lamadude
Sep 16, 2007, 09:47 AM
As said before, a lot of European countries don't have a lot of EDGE coverage. So there it boils down to either 3G or GPRS, and I just can't see an iPhone being much fun on GPRS.

emotion
Sep 16, 2007, 09:49 AM
Yeah, EDGE which they seem to have recently added with a simple software upgrade to their base stations, specifically for the iPhone. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/09/14/o2_edge/
So just because 3G is widespread in a market (and in the UK it is), don't assume it will mean any changes to the iPhone.

Widespread? Aside from the network's hype here's O2's actual coverage:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1023/1380530641_375848e896_o.png

The dark blue bits are coverage for 3G. Outside cities (where there's much faster wifi too) there's very little in the way of coverage.

At this moment in time is 3G the best option? Maybe next year.


And for everyone wittering about data costs - T-Mobile UK charges 7.50 on top of your voice contract for unlimited data access, which would make it an obvious choice for an unlocked iPhone......

Yes, and T-Mobile's coverage is even worse. Nice price plan though it is. I expect O2 to come up with something similar for 10/12.

As said before, a lot of European countries don't have a lot of EDGE coverage. So there it boils down to either 3G or GPRS, and I just can't see an iPhone being much fun on GPRS.

Where doesn't have EDGE? They'll have to wait until the 3G/16GB update in November/Feb (depend on what you read).

emotion
Sep 16, 2007, 09:50 AM
..snip...

CD3660
Sep 16, 2007, 10:03 AM
I am sorry, did I miss something in your post?.

Yes you did I'm afraid.

I was not seeking to compare the power consumption of a V3xx and an iPhone, nor indeed the functions of each device. That would be absurd.

I was simply (rather too simply it seems) making the point that technology has moved on very rapidly from the days, only 2 years ago, of the V3x (the original 3G Razr), a hefty device that would drain the battery in no time.

Personally I do not believe that an adequately performing 3G iPhone was not in the advanced stages of development at the time that Steve Jobs was suggesting that it was not a feasible proposition.

What's the betting that the 3G iPhone with good battery life appears by February '08 at the latest? I'd put money on it.

gugy
Sep 16, 2007, 11:13 AM
What's the betting that the 3G iPhone with good battery life appears by February '08 at the latest? I'd put money on it.


I would say even prior to that. For me the latest to see a 3G version would be at MWSF. But more importantly for me is 16gb version.

skoops
Sep 16, 2007, 12:45 PM
The german website/magazine heise.de claims that T-Mobile will be the exclusive iPhone-provider NOT ONLY in Germany, but also in Austria, The Netherlands, Hungary and Croatia.... Let's just hope they all launch simultaneously.... :D

CD3660
Sep 16, 2007, 02:09 PM
I would say (3G) even prior to that (Feb. '07).

This is the kind of speculation that I just want to believe. You never know but it may be less than 48 hours away for the U.K. (but I doubt it).

yoffie
Sep 16, 2007, 02:47 PM
I found another hard evidence that iPhone UK will come before November.

From 12/09 ~ 30/10 Apple UK has been offering Back-to School promotion i.e buy a Mac get a iPod Nano free. I just go through the terms and conditions of it and guess what, I found this:

3. For the purposes of the Promotion, to be entitled to the money-back rebate, the Qualifying Education Customer must
purchase the Qualifying Products simultaneously, with one purchase being a qualifying Mac Product and the other
purchase being a qualifying iPod Product, defined as follows:
Mac Product any one of the following:
All Macintosh computers and the Configure-to-Order versions of these products are eligible, except for Mac mini, Apple TV and iPhone.
iPod Product any one of the following:
All iPods and iPod nanos, excluding iPod shuffle.

If there is no iPhone until November in UK, then why hell they put it in the terms and conditions?

emotion
Sep 16, 2007, 02:50 PM
If there is no iPhone until November in UK, then why hell they put it in the terms and conditions?

Interesting find. Could just be a mistake of course.

I have a feeling it's for immediate launch and it's the US spec iPhone.

joe8232
Sep 16, 2007, 03:37 PM
That is a really interesting find regarding the t&c's of the back to school promo but I don't think it means anything. My reasoning for this is that if you look at the web address for the t&c's [ http://input.media.euro.apple.com/apple/promotions/terms/backtoschool/uk/tsandcs.html ], towards the end is UK, which is great, if you change it to fr, de then it switches to the french and german equivilents which is also good, but you can also put 'it' for Italy where the iPhone is not expected to launch and it is still mentioned :(

EDIT: Also is mentioned for finland [fi] :( :(

matznentosh
Sep 16, 2007, 07:34 PM
In the UK, I would say that nobody pays over 50 UK for a new contract phone these days. People expect them to be FREE if they are signing a contract which is 35 or more each month.

My Nokia E65 on launch day was free with my contract. Im sure there are people with bucket loads of spare cash who can justify the iphone, but it seems massively over priced for what is still essentially... a mobile phone.

I'll say it again. People don't buy the iPhone because it is a better Blackberry, or better Nokia. People buy the iPhone because it does something no other phone does.

If that something is unique enough, fun enough, and useful enough, people will buy a lot of em. If not, then the iPhone will not be successful. Almost everyone is arguing whether EDGE is too slow, or if 3G is way faster, or just a little faster, or available, or not... try web browsing on the iPhone. I use a Treo 700p on Verizon, it has the fast CDMA system. It also has a really really crappy web browser. Most of the time it defaults to a horrible little cell phone version of the web site that doesn't show anything. Believe me, I would rather look at the iPhone web browser, even if it is slower in loading.

Again, my point is you should be assessing the iPhone for what it is, on its own terms. No other phone is like it enough for there to be a fair comparison.

Now, here is another point, or rather question. I'm in the US, so those of you in Europe and Great Britain, how compelling is iTunes? In the US, there is another quality of the iPod and the iPhone that makes them unique and desirable. Two qualities, actually:
1. they sync immediately and without effort with your computer. I guarantee you other mp3 players don't do that. I have to manually move songs over to my Treo, and it's always a crap shoot if the contacts and calendar information syncs correctly with the Treo.
2. iTunes works extremely well with the iPod and Iphone, again effortlessly. My Treo doesn't sort songs into albums for example, I have to do it manually.

So the question is, how important is iTunes in Europe and Great Britain? Would this add value to the iPhone? If not, then the iPhone, I think, would not be as compelling as it is in the US -again, regardless of how fast the darn thing is. If iTunes is important/useful/fun/used all the time, then the iPhone will have another reason to be considered a unique device, and a considerably valuable one as well. Worth the price? Consumers will decide that question.

atomwork
Sep 16, 2007, 08:37 PM
3G is overrated here in the states. AT&T's 3G coverage is not anything to write home about.

Here in New York state, there are only 2 places that have 3G coverage, NYC and the Hamptons. The rest of the state is on EDGE. Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse and Albany are all EDGE.

So if the 3G coverage is not there in most states, why should Apple put it into the iPhone?

I'm pretty happy with my 190kbps on EDGE as is because if I need faster speeds I just find myself a WiFi locale in a pinch.


you know how people are, they always find something to complain about. rather then looking how awesome and revolutionary this product is they do look at price, GB and 3G.

Confidemus
Sep 17, 2007, 03:39 AM
Hi all,

as a German, a typical situation is the following setup:
1. At home I have WiFi, so I do not need 3G.
2. While driving I'm not allowed to play with my iPhone. (When I go by train - ICE3 I suppose, there is WiFi again.)
3. On the client site there is WiFi again - with each client I have seen the last years. They all have open WiFi networks, normally you need/get a guest login.
4. With Starbucks, airports etc. there is WiFi again.

A. Yes I have a 3G / UMTS phone today (SonyEricsson K610i), but the only use of 3G is that I use the phone as a bluetooth modem for my MacBook, which works fine. And that's because of using Safari and Email, which I can do with the iPhone without the laptop.

B. The major hindrance will be the corporate usage of the iPhone. Especially in the large organizations the adoption of MS security features or Blackberry security features has mutated to organizational rules. So, when you try to get an iPhone with a large company you will find that the security policies fit perfectly to the above mentioned available technologies. That's it.
- On the other hand there is the policy, that you are not allowed to share viable company information via email. So why the are making that effort about security? Because of that formidable marketing of MS in the corporate headquarters. As a former IBM employee I know about the ancient times of IBM being in this position. Such a position can't stand forever, but you can't change that with a quarterly measured company strategy.

So what: For me as self-employed consultant the iPhone is just fine and I will switch my contract and phone number when it comes. I will be able to attend business meetings without carrying my Laptop. Wunderbar! And, did I say that: It contains an iPod, too, so minus one device for me.

Confidemus

joe8232
Sep 17, 2007, 07:07 AM
I agree there is wifi almost everywhere I go. Home has wireless, university has wireless. Out and about I have a subscription to BT openzone so that isn't an issue if there is a signal other than that I will have to put up with Edge but that is only for a minimum amount of time.

emotion
Sep 17, 2007, 07:11 AM
I agree there is wifi almost everywhere I go. Home has wireless, university has wireless. Out and about I have a subscription to BT openzone so that isn't an issue if there is a signal other than that I will have to put up with Edge but that is only for a minimum amount of time.

If you're moving about, current wifi technology doesn't work. ie. try using wifi on a bus/tram or most trains. Or in a moving car.

A lot of campus networks are VPN protected (as are some corporate nets). This can sometimes mean a Cisco client. The iPhone doesn't have this. In fact it has no VPN support at all.

b0ned0me
Sep 17, 2007, 07:29 AM
Widespread? Aside from the network's hype here's O2's actual coverage:

The dark blue bits are coverage for 3G. Outside cities (where there's much faster wifi too) there's very little in the way of coverage.

Meh. Who cares? Those cities are where most of the prospective customers live and work anyhow. It's not like lack of coverage in East Sprottingforth village was much of a hindrance to takeup of mobile phones back when the providers were still rolling out GSM.

Yes, and T-Mobile's coverage is even worse. Nice price plan though it is. I expect O2 to come up with something similar for 10/12.

Never had a problem other than when visiting Mum in the depths of North Wales. And there lack of 3G is the least of your worries :eek:

notsofatjames
Sep 17, 2007, 07:37 AM
The iPhone doesn't have this. In fact it has no VPN support at all.

iPhone does have VPN support.
http://www.apple.com/iphone/questionsandanswers.html
What kind of security features does iPhone offer?
You can protect access to information on your iPhone with a four-digit password, which is then required whenever iPhone is turned on or wakes from sleep. For secure Internet access, iPhone supports industry-standard Wi-Fi security and virtual private networking (VPN).

emotion
Sep 17, 2007, 07:43 AM
iPhone does have VPN support.
http://www.apple.com/iphone/questionsandanswers.html


I stand corrected. However that's no use on a CISCO VPN'd network.

notsofatjames
Sep 17, 2007, 07:44 AM
I stand corrected. However that's no use on a CISCO VPN'd network.

I think there was an issue with cisco vpns originally, but I think thats be sorted out so it works. But don't hold me to that.

emotion
Sep 17, 2007, 07:55 AM
I think there was an issue with cisco vpns originally, but I think thats be sorted out so it works. But don't hold me to that.

I've never managed to configure the MacOSX VPN client with the cisco vpn. I'd be surprised in the iPhione could. I don't know for certain tho.

Di9it8
Sep 17, 2007, 01:41 PM
Currently in the apple store, the back of the store has been closed off, with temporary walls, no training sessions today or tomorrow
The store is also closed to the public until 4.00pm
iPhone or not????;););)

ABM
Sep 18, 2007, 01:13 AM
4 hours...

TurboSC
Sep 18, 2007, 01:32 AM
Makes me happy to see everyone else in the world finally getting their hands on the iPhone...

Soon everyone will be able to enjoy the awesomeness :) :apple:

ma2ha3
Sep 18, 2007, 05:07 AM
Makes me happy to see everyone else in the world finally getting their hands on the iPhone...

Soon everyone will be able to enjoy the awesomeness :) :apple:


what about asia?
the sooner apple release in japan
the sooner 3G iphone appear
and more battery life to boot too

ABM
Sep 18, 2007, 08:04 AM
:(

Next Announcements on Apple Expo Paris?

-J.
Sep 18, 2007, 08:30 AM
Deutsche Telecom (a.k.a T-Mobile) will have a press briefing tomorrow at noon in Berlin. Only thing they'll say untill that time it's concerning a "co-operation with a major US partner".

Compile 'em all
Sep 18, 2007, 09:30 AM
Deutsche Telecom (a.k.a T-Mobile) will have a press briefing tomorrow at noon in Berlin. Only thing they'll say untill that time it's concerning a "co-operation with a major US partner".

source?

-J.
Sep 18, 2007, 09:51 AM
A spokesperson from T-Mobile in The Netherlands has confirmed that their international office will announce this tomorrow at a press briefing. Source: http://www.macfan.nl/nieuws.lasso?id=fde0fbfcdd953713.