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MacRumors
Sep 17, 2007, 09:30 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

iLounge posts (http://www.ilounge.com/index.php/ipod/review/apple-ipod-touch-8gb-16gb/) an extensive review of the iPod Touch and found that in comparison to the iPhone, it was somewhat disappointing. Of note, they felt that the video screen had a shallow viewing angle and an unusual "shimmering effect" in dark spots.

Similar reports and examples have been posted on various message boards (Apple thread (http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1131324&tstart=0), MacRumors thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=355803), Flickr set (http://flickr.com/photos/macpublishing/sets/72157602019608287/), Youtube Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYxlrsReUEU")), and discussion has been filling our iPod Touch forum (http://forums.macrumors.com/forumdisplay.php?f=113).

The Washington Post's first look (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/16/AR2007091600040.html) at the iPod touch describes the issue in more detail:
Unfortunately the 16GB unit I picked up at the San Francisco Apple store has a display problem that makes many dark scenes almost unwatchable. Video looks reversed out in dark areas, creating a very distracting negative effect.

The issue does not appear to affect every iPod touch, as at least one user has posted photos (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=355779) of an unaffected iPod touch.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/09/17/ipod-touch-negative-black-screen-issue/)



bdj21ya
Sep 17, 2007, 09:33 AM
This seems pretty lame. Apple really needs to work on their display quality control.

Spock
Sep 17, 2007, 09:37 AM
I have a PSP that does this exact thing, cant stand it. Guess the Touch will be on the refurb list sooner than I thought.

atari1356
Sep 17, 2007, 09:40 AM
For what it's worth, when I look at my iPhone straight on, the black areas look "shimmery" too. Tilting it slightly makes the picture look fine. I was slightly annoyed by this at first, but decided it's really not that big of a deal to just tilt the thing a little.

EDIT: after seeing that YouTUBE video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYxlrsReUEU), I can say that my iPhone is not quite that bad

megfilmworks
Sep 17, 2007, 09:45 AM
The article mentions that the wifi store is available now for the iPhone. Is he jumping the gun or am I missing something?

phalewhale
Sep 17, 2007, 09:46 AM
This seems pretty lame. Apple really needs to work on their display quality control.

Couldn't agree more... I've posted several times on these forums regarding my issues with several MBP's that I no longer own - RETURNED! There seem to be so many problems with screens these day's - what is going on here?

Am I glad I got the "old" 24-inch iMac in White!

ddubbo
Sep 17, 2007, 09:49 AM
I just here more and more about quality problems with new Apple products.
It's seems to me that times of G4,G5, power macs and power books are gone

TurboSC
Sep 17, 2007, 09:56 AM
Apple has gotten pretty good about their quality control and is one of the few companies that still keep the consumer mind. I'm sure theyll address the problem.

Sandfleaz
Sep 17, 2007, 09:56 AM
Are these assembled in the same plants as the iPhone?
Are they the same components?

Want one bad, but will wait till this is resolved!

ant_s
Sep 17, 2007, 09:57 AM
I just here more and more about quality problems with new Apple products.
It's seems to me that times of G4,G5, power macs and power books are gone

Ever remember the "white spots" issue with the first batch of the aluminium PowerBook G4s? And iMac G5 screen banding issues?

Displays are a big problem for Apple and have been for some time. You'd think they'd learn from these issues. I was interested in the iPod Touch. Think I might wait a while now.

mrzippy
Sep 17, 2007, 09:57 AM
I hope these issues are sorted before they arrive in the UK, as I really really want an iPod touch!

About time Apple commented, as this has been picked up by numerous news sites.

Maybe they will do a Q&A in London tomorrow, you know someone will mention it!

morespce54
Sep 17, 2007, 10:01 AM
Well, well, well... What do you know... ;)

astronot
Sep 17, 2007, 10:03 AM
FWIW, I picked up an 8GB iPhone over the weekend, and it has the exact same problem... although probably not quite as bad. It is still pretty annoying though, anywhere on screen where there's a shadow, or someone has black hair, that area looks kind of silvery. I sure hope Apple can fix this with a software update. :(

JuicyGoo
Sep 17, 2007, 10:06 AM
So how bad is bad, really?

I haven't seen any drastic "shimmering" issues with the videos I've loaded onto my Touch yet, but I do see a bit of the effect in some really dark photos.

My question is how good of a black representation are we really able to expect on a "good" screen?

PlayWithTV
Sep 17, 2007, 10:08 AM
The question is. Is it a video compression issue or a hardware issue? Could it be fixed with a firmware update? Should I wait, or exchange it?

swingerofbirch
Sep 17, 2007, 10:12 AM
People on that YouTube discussion are saying they're canceling their Touch orders.

This is no time to be an Apple apologist; we must hold Apple's feet to the fire until they smell like a delicious baked apple.

It's only for Apple's own good that we demand quality from them.

powderblue17
Sep 17, 2007, 10:14 AM
I just here more and more about quality problems with new Apple products.
It's seems to me that times of G4,G5, power macs and power books are gone

I love it when someone says something like this. I guess you've never heard of some of the problems Apple had before the Intel switch. Maybe you never had a problem before but tons of people havn't had a problem with there Intel machines either. Here is my list off the top of my head.

Wind Tunnel G4 PowerMacs
G4 Cube touch sensitive power button
iBook G3, G4 logic board failures
Titanium Powerbook display hindge

If anything I'd say their quality is getting better when you see how quiet their machines are nowadays, how thin they've gotten, and how much advanced tech devices like the iphone have in them. That doesn't mean their perfect but we have't seen any logic board recalls recently.

JobsRules
Sep 17, 2007, 10:15 AM
Electronic stuff has seen massive deflation in price over the last decade. While some of that has come from economies of scale or cheaper labour markets a great deal of it has come from making everything throwaway and flimsy and having no meaninful quality control.

It's cheaper to throw a load of cheaply-made stuff onto the market and just replace the bad ones than to check them properly before despatch. That's the model, sadly.

animenick65
Sep 17, 2007, 10:16 AM
Its a pretty bad issue. My unit is almost unwatchable in scenes with large amounts of dark areas.

bdj21ya
Sep 17, 2007, 10:16 AM
Couldn't agree more... I've posted several times on these forums regarding my issues with several MBP's that I no longer own - RETURNED! There seem to be so many problems with screens these day's - what is going on here?

Am I glad I got the "old" 24-inch iMac in White!

I haven't heard of any display probs with 24" iMac. I have heard that the 20" iMac is 18 Bit instead of true 24 bit, but I have an 18 bit MBP and have never had a problem, so I doubt I would care about this one.

maestrokev
Sep 17, 2007, 10:20 AM
I was trying to decide whether to order from Apple online to get the iTouch earlier or wait until Best Buy receives stock. Think I'll stick with Best Buy since they have an easier return policy.

This is disappointing but not unexpected since it's still a 1st Gen product.

Project
Sep 17, 2007, 10:20 AM
I love it when someone says something like this. I guess you've never heard of some of the problems Apple had before the Intel switch. Maybe you never had a problem before but tons of people havn't had a problem with there Intel machines either. Here is my list off the top of my head.

Wind Tunnel G4 PowerMacs
G4 Cube touch sensitive power button
iBook G3, G4 logic board failures
Titanium Powerbook display hindge

If anything I'd say their quality is getting better when you see how quiet their machines are nowadays, how thin they've gotten, and how much advanced tech devices like the iphone have in them. That doesn't mean their perfect but we have't seen any logic board recalls recently.

Dont forget the battery recalls.

Digital Skunk
Sep 17, 2007, 10:32 AM
I don't think Apple has had any quality control issues above and beyond what any company would have. I think people pay more attention to them because we would expect better from Apple after paying so much money for a premium product.

I was interested in the Touch but I may just wait a while for it first, and get the iPod Classic 160 to tide me over until the Rev B Touch or some version of the iPhone that works with Sprint's network comes out.

chicagostars
Sep 17, 2007, 10:33 AM
"Mom always said don't buy 1st gen electronic devices." -- Bobby Brady

Funny thing about lust though; it still makes you want to have that which isn't neccessarily the best for you, including the latest iPod that hasn't seen enough street time yet.

Hecklerdanny
Sep 17, 2007, 10:43 AM
Here's what my screen looks like. It's an absolute joke. These are made to watch movies on, we can't just overlook it. That's like buying a car that doesn't start, but it's such a cool car that we can just overlook that small defect. Apple needs to do something about this quickly. The only possible way to get a picture that's viewable at all is to do what us who own them are calling "The Tilt Move"...Tilt it up and to the left...

I can hear it now...

"...But there is one more thing. It's a new iPod with touch controls...and we're calling it the iPod Tilt."

phytonix
Sep 17, 2007, 10:45 AM
This is very disappointing.

BWhaler
Sep 17, 2007, 10:46 AM
As a huge Apple supporter and as someone who spends between $1,000 and $5,000 per year on Apple products, it kills me to write this post.

But, this iPod touch screen issue is just another example of the massive quality issues Apple has been having over the past couple of years.

I think the problem is in two areas: first, manufacturing quality is terrible at this point. Yes, I know no manufacturing process is flawless, but there are just more and more reports of problems with build, fit and finish. (And my little birds who would know such things have quietly agreed.) From the MacBooks shutting down from the heat issues, the dirty iMac screens, the problems with the displays in the MBP line, Cinema displays, to the 20" iMac displays, Apple doesn't build quality into their products like they used to.

Hell, the fact that thousands of people were tracking motherboard builds on the MacBook and iPhone should send warning bells all across the 3rd floor of 1 Infinite Loop. First, it's the core who notices and discusses on sites like this. Next, its the main stream and Walt Mossberg. (At that point you're cooked.)

Second, software QA is a total disaster. The number of rapid patches which need to come out days later are increasing. OSX 10.3.0 which crashed hard drives, Safari for Windows, the new iMac patch which is bricking iMacs randomly, the last three updates of itunes, two of the three new iPods needed emergency patches...the list goes on and on.

I bought the iPod nano and the new 160gig iPod classic. (Thankfully, I passed on the iPod touch since 16gigs is a total joke for an iPod which is intended for video.)

Anyway, I am amazed at the number of bugs with both of the new iPods and some basic UI flaws. Random white lines down the right side of the screen which can be removed with a reboot. "Podcasts" stays in the main menu even when the settings are set to off until you add it and then remove it again, the moving artwork doesn't always match what is selected in the menu. The list goes on and on, and if these players had a "Zune" label on them, I would mock the device as "typical Microsoft software."

For the first time since purchasing since 11 iPods, I actually thought about returning an iPod last night for quality reasons.

I am worried my friends. Something definitely is not right with Apple nowadays.

What amazes me is Microsoft/Dell/Sony hasn't figured this out yet. It's Apple's achieles heal. If I were working at one of those companies, I would position Apple as the "Ferrari" of the tech world. Beautiful, sure, but expensive and so riddled with quality issues, that the car is in the shop most of the time.

notjustjay
Sep 17, 2007, 10:47 AM
Displays are a big problem for Apple and have been for some time. You'd think they'd learn from these issues.

Yeah, whatever they're doing at the Apple Display Factory is just inexcusable. In fact, we should storm the gates in protest. Where exactly is the factory that manufactures Apple displays, again?

:rolleyes:

garrettcode
Sep 17, 2007, 10:49 AM
Its a pretty bad issue. My unit is almost unwatchable in scenes with large amounts of dark areas.

When I watch superman returns, I have to hold the unit at a specific angle so that the effect doesn't manifest. If I don't, some scenes, like him in space, are impossible to watch. However, as long as I hold it at the right angle it's just fine. Oddly enough, when I watch back to the future, the scenes in the parking lot at night look just fine, and I haven't had to play with the angle. It could just be the compression, but it's also possible that the blacks are deeper in superman returns. It's worth mentioning that I've not seen any issues in the youtube videos I've watched.

For now I'm content with it. By the way, this was posted from my Touch.

cliffjumper68
Sep 17, 2007, 10:51 AM
Bad screen, no calendar input. ohh well I guess that will save me some cash. It is a bit disturbing to see apple put out a artificially crippled low quality product.:(

O and A
Sep 17, 2007, 10:52 AM
I have the negative black issue on my 16 gig ipod touch. It also has like 30 extremly tiny little dead pixels!

But the genius bar told me they will replace it because of the high number of dead pixels. They are just really hard to see because of the high pixel desnity but once u see one u see them all. My friends ipod touch also has several dead pixels.

Sometehing went horribly wrong in Quality control with these screens IMO

at least apple is replacing mine.

animenick65
Sep 17, 2007, 10:59 AM
I bought my touch at a Best Buy and I want to exchange it and see if I can get a better unit. Can I just bring it back to any Best Buy or can I bring it to an Apple Store?

Parky
Sep 17, 2007, 11:03 AM
I cancelled my order for a 16GB iPod touch from the UK Apple Store yesterday. I think I will wait it out a little longer and see what happens.

All the cancelled orders should be getting Apple's attention by now as there seem to be quite a few people doing the same thing.

I do hope this is a software issue, BUT I suspect it is not and a bad batch of screens have been used by the manufacturer.

Ian

swingerofbirch
Sep 17, 2007, 11:09 AM
I wonder if the price points aren't partly responsible.

The Flash memory used in these is expensive, then you're adding a multi-touch screen for prices that are close to the iPhone--the difference is that the iPhone is subsidized to Apple with monthly revenue from ATT.

I'm guessing they just keep pushing their Chinese factories more and more to their limits.

SuperMan11MS
Sep 17, 2007, 11:14 AM
THIS IS NOT LIMITED TO JUST THE IPOD TOUCH.

I purchased a second iPhone on Friday September 14th from the Apple store in Orlando, FL. When comparing it to my iPhone that I had purchased the day after launch day you could clearly see the difference. It had this same exact issue. The black areas almost looked blue because of the combination of the negative effect on the black areas. You guys know the story. But anyway, my main point is that this is not limited to the new touch's, it happens on the new iPhones too. I took my second iPhone back on Sunday and received a new one with the same issues. Store employee said there are two different screen manufacturers. They are kinda disorienting. I'm very unhappy with my second iPhone purchase.

RCGMac
Sep 17, 2007, 11:14 AM
My unit is fine, no screen issues. I watched several videos this weekend and showed it off to my friends and family, they were all very impressed. When I get home from work, I will TRY to take some pictures, but I only have the iSight in my MB to use. I bought my 8GB unit Friday morning at the Southdale Apple Store in Edina, MN.

jawporta
Sep 17, 2007, 11:15 AM
Apple needs to give those Chinese people a rase, I'm not joking. The quality control is really slipping.

mrzippy
Sep 17, 2007, 11:19 AM
My unit is fine, no screen issues. I watched several videos this weekend and showed it off to my friends and family, they were all very impressed. When I get home from work, I will TRY to take some pictures, but I only have the iSight in my MB to use. I bought my 8GB unit Friday morning at the Southdale Apple Store in Edina, MN.

I would be very interested to see some pictures of good screens, better still in comparison to bad ones... Only comparisons like this are iPhone vs iPod.

mrzippy
Sep 17, 2007, 11:20 AM
Most comments I seem to remember regard the 16GB models, could this mean it only affects them... Post above states he has a good screen on this 8GB model.

fastbite
Sep 17, 2007, 11:21 AM
This is terrible news, I was ready to bite but now I'm waiting.

kaeckisthename
Sep 17, 2007, 11:21 AM
Doesn't Hitachi make the displays for the iPhone & iPod Touch?

jockmock
Sep 17, 2007, 11:22 AM
Most comments I seem to remember regard the 16GB models, could this mean it only affects them... Post above states he has a good screen on this 8GB model.

most people buy the 16gb model

RCGMac
Sep 17, 2007, 11:23 AM
Most comments I seem to remember regard the 16GB models, could this mean it only affects them... Post above states he has a good screen on this 8GB model.

That was one thing I was thinking, especially since many of the people who bought them on Thursday and Friday seemed to be buying the 16GB units. Many of the threads on here were saying that many stores were sold out of the 16GB units but still had 8GB units.

I know that was the case in my situation.

joemama
Sep 17, 2007, 11:33 AM
I bought my touch at a Best Buy and I want to exchange it and see if I can get a better unit. Can I just bring it back to any Best Buy or can I bring it to an Apple Store?

You have to return it at Best Buy. Do it as soon as possible too. I would worry about if you tell them it doesn't work right, they might tell you it's Apple's problem and not give you your money back. Watch out!

While the screen issue is unacceptable, it's a first generation product. And it doesn't yet have the mail program, so return them and wait for the screen to be fixed and Mail to come out.

Christmas time, people.....Christmas.

koobcamuk
Sep 17, 2007, 11:34 AM
...If anything I'd say their quality is getting better when you see how quiet their machines are nowadays...

I agreed with you until you said quiet. Open up an iBook. Silent. Use a Macbook. Not silent. At all. I know the power's different - but you mislead when you say they are quieter... more description needed.

sam10685
Sep 17, 2007, 11:34 AM
Man people are picky. I went to the Apple Store last week and didn't notice a thing when I played with them.

RCGMac
Sep 17, 2007, 11:39 AM
I agreed with you until you said quiet. Open up an iBook. Silent. Use a Macbook. Not silent. At all. I know the power's different - but you mislead when you say they are quieter... more description needed.

My Macbook is quiet most of the time, I only hear the fan when I am doing something intensive, or if I am using Vista (Stupid Resource-Hog) :mad:.

quadgirl
Sep 17, 2007, 11:42 AM
I hope these issues are sorted before they arrive in the UK, as I really really want an iPod touch!

About time Apple commented, as this has been picked up by numerous news sites.

Maybe they will do a Q&A in London tomorrow, you know someone will mention it!

They are available now in the UK, just showing '28th September' on the Apple UK online store. But some Apple stores have them (Regent Street, etc)

I guess those who have bought from London are having the same issues though and it would be wise to wait.

I does seem like Apple are having some quality control problems recently (iMac screen, new iPod Nano and Classic performance). The problems seem more noticeable recently as Apple have been bringing out a lot more new (rev A) products recently. They will get it sorted, just need to be patient (or don't by a Rev A).

jonnyb
Sep 17, 2007, 11:46 AM
Man people are picky. I went to the Apple Store last week and didn't notice a thing when I played with them.

Perhaps because they made sure the ones on display are good ones? It has already been documented that this issue is not affecting all ipod touches

sikkinixx
Sep 17, 2007, 11:46 AM
Man people are picky. I went to the Apple Store last week and didn't notice a thing when I played with them.

that means all of them have no problems? :rolleyes:


I just read the iLounge review and I am glad resisted the urge to click the 'buy' button a few weeks ago. Another bad Apple product and I would probably leave the brand for good. Between 4 random shutdown macbooks, 2 yellow screened 2.2ghz MBP's and a DOA iPod Nano the last damn thing I need if for something else to have troubles.

Hopefully next revision gets all the bugs ironed out.

ddubbo
Sep 17, 2007, 11:46 AM
I am worries my friends. Something definitely is not right with Apple nowadays.
The answer is arrogance.
I am switched to Mac from Win 98 and started to use again Win Xp a year ago. Guess what? Despite all insinuations it works. No viruses, nothing collapses, nothing jams. I didn't restart for 2 month already.After it when I compared specs I saw that usually all comes from Apple is overpriced. Lets remember the Mac Mini. Probably there is no any PC at the market today using such ancient hardware. Of course, Apple products are user-friendly, but should I pay twice only for elegance?
Last years Apple spends a lot of efforts trying to persuade people how their competitors are bad, and how Apple good and innovative. They'd better put more on a quality control an lower the price

freebooter
Sep 17, 2007, 11:48 AM
This extremely narrow viewing angle with reversed/negative black problem is precisely the problem I've had with my C2D Macbook 1.83 glossy screen since day one.
What the hell is Apple thinking? Don't they test these things?
I'd replace the Macbook with a MacBook Pro but, oh yeah, yellowing screens. :rolleyes:
I'm glad my iMac 24" 2.16 works well. I guess I'll be keeping it for a while.
I certainly won't be getting an iTouch Myself. $400 for 16 GB?? Ha! A big step backward for Apple, unless you are into 'slick for slickness sake.'
It'll be about a year at least before this loaf is fully baked.

Markleshark
Sep 17, 2007, 11:52 AM
Shame. Apple will hopefully sort it though.

aidanpendragon
Sep 17, 2007, 11:57 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

The Washington Post's first look (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/16/AR2007091600040.html) at the iPod touch describes the issue in more detail:



Eds/mods, please note that this is a PC World review reprinted by Wash. Post, and not a first look by any Post staff writers.

whatever
Sep 17, 2007, 12:04 PM
I just here more and more about quality problems with new Apple products.
It's seems to me that times of G4,G5, power macs and power books are gone
How quickly they forget. There were problems with all of those products that you mention (G5 loud fans, PowerBooks and iBooks with there pre-MagSafe connectors, to name a few).

Let's not rewrite history here.

In fact most mass produced products have problems. The number of people that actually encounter these problems are loud minority, but just that a minority!

MattG
Sep 17, 2007, 12:08 PM
Dont forget the battery recalls.

Or the 1st Gen aluminum Powerbooks with the dreaded white spots...wanna talk about screen issues! :eek:

BornAgainMac
Sep 17, 2007, 12:13 PM
The iPod Touch was crippled anyways. They should have had it open to developers, email app, editable calendar, side volume control and speaker, etc. It was crippled by design and should have had those PDA type features to take advantage of the OS and be the iPod that people wanted. It was a train wreck from the start.

RCGMac
Sep 17, 2007, 12:28 PM
The iPod Touch was crippled anyways. They should have had it open to developers, email app, editable calendar, side volume control and speaker, etc. It was crippled by design and should have had those PDA type features to take advantage of the OS and be the iPod that people wanted. It was a train wreck from the start.

I think Apple will add those apps to the iPod eventually. Apple had to do something to distinguish the iPhone from the iPod Touch. If Apple doesn't add these apps, I am sure a hacker will.

sam10685
Sep 17, 2007, 12:28 PM
Perhaps because they made sure the ones on display are good ones? It has already been documented that this issue is not affecting all ipod touches

Why would Apple make sure "good" ipods are on display and not just not care what the customer gets? Seems like that would be really bad business practices to me.

razorme
Sep 17, 2007, 12:29 PM
I just cancelled my order for a Touch. I was already less than impressed about the crippling of features (Mail, Notes, Calender, Widgets). I was fine with the lack of Bluetooth and Camera.

If looks like Apple really only included Safari so that you could log onto website-authenticated networks - I bet they would have stripped that out too if they could have. For those of us who already have iPods, not including PDA capabilities really reduces the desirability to upgrade.

These screen quality issues were the tipping point - why take a chance.

PS: The Canadian Exchange rates are also awful - 12.5% higher on 16 GB model.. should be no more than 5% (current exchange rates are ~3%).

LaMerVipere
Sep 17, 2007, 12:31 PM
Man people are picky. I went to the Apple Store last week and didn't notice a thing when I played with them.

All the iPod touch models on display at the Apple Store I was at were the 8GB model, which seems to be generating less reports of display issues than the 16GB. Something to keep in mind.:cool:

superted666
Sep 17, 2007, 12:34 PM
I have had apple products since the ibook g4 first appearance.

Ive owned maybe 3-4 products a year up to now and never had a problem, then i got a macbook :(

Wonderful machine but 4 repairs one of which was a whole new macbook (free upgrade granted). thats quite some going on a single laptop and all of the problems have been QC related.

its a shame because one of the reasons i used macs are because they were bullet proof.

Jobs values customers so hopefully he will take this into account and re-visit the QC process that apple puts into play.

Westside guy
Sep 17, 2007, 12:36 PM
People on that YouTube discussion are saying they're canceling their Touch orders.

When reading forums and such, generally it's not wise to assume everyone is telling the truth. Perhaps they should include a scan of their original invoice to prove they actually place an order in the first place. :p

But having said that, this makes me glad I decided to wait. I went through the Powerbook "white spot" problem - Apple was great about fixing it, but they ended up replacing the display three times! People don't really want even a great warranty if they keep having to use it...

Buying Rev. A stuff often requires an amount of patience I don't really have. But it is hard to hold out when the next really new and cool thing comes out... :D

MattG
Sep 17, 2007, 12:42 PM
Originally Posted by sam10685
Man people are picky. I went to the Apple Store last week and didn't notice a thing when I played with them.

For $400 I think they have every right to be.

kidzdoc
Sep 17, 2007, 12:46 PM
After reading all the comments, I went and transferred Black Hawk Down onto my iPod Touch since this movie has many dark scenes along with explosions at night to see whether mine had the Negative Black screen issues. Fortunately, I did not see any of the described problems. Maybe I was lucky in my purchase.

Loving the iPod Touch so far. :D

- Doc

BWhaler
Sep 17, 2007, 12:46 PM
I cancelled my order for a 16GB iPod touch from the UK Apple Store yesterday. I think I will wait it out a little longer and see what happens.

All the cancelled orders should be getting Apple's attention by now as there seem to be quite a few people doing the same thing.

I do hope this is a software issue, BUT I suspect it is not and a bad batch of screens have been used by the manufacturer.

Ian

I spoke with 3 people today who said the same thing.

Also, I have heard that the iPhone screen has been switched too. (Now that the initial reviews are done, this change was made to help offset the new lower price.)

Apple really needs to get their act together.

observer
Sep 17, 2007, 01:00 PM
The iPod Touch was crippled anyways.

This is witty, but bogus.

I finally got around to watching a video of the iTouch operation. About halfway through I realized that the cool features were all **iPod** activities Ė flipping through albums, selecting songs, buying from iTunes. The iTouch is very good indeed as an iPod. The screen problem seems to be a manufacturing issue Ė Iíll bet the factory changed a process to save some money and tried to sneak it through, hoping that nobody at Apple would notice. Itíll get fixed.

The complaints about ďcripplingĒ are all with respect to non-iPod functions. Apple has, openly and explicitly, not provided the stuff people have come to expect in PDAs. Maybe they feel they canít do it well yet? Perhaps not in this form? Perhaps they feel itís not worth doing? Itís clear that both the iPhone and the iTouch can be used for things that Apple has not planned for, yet. Iíve been tempted to get one and use it as a laptop replacement. But, Iíve decided that this size screen just canít do what I need, no matter how good the user interface is. Iíll wait for the next larger version.

If you want a video iPod, both the iTouch and the iPhone look great. If you want to use the iTouch as a PDA, either live with web apps or wait for the hackers to come through. Or be a hacker and make it do what you want. But donít bitch because Apple didnít make the gadget you would have made if you were them.

nubero
Sep 17, 2007, 01:05 PM
This seems pretty lame. Apple really needs to work on their display quality control.

quality control in general you mean.

i've never seen so many apple products that were of such low quality as these days. i would gladly pay more money for better quality...

i saw this coming a few years back when everybody demanded cheaper - excuse me - more affordable products from apple.

i'm not saying that we should go back to that ridiculously high pricing of the old days but 100$ more for the cinema displays and the imacs each and 50$ more for the iPod touch and iPhone should buy a lot of headroom for quality control and better components.

what do you guys think? would you pay more for better quality? maybe we should have a poll :-)

www.nubero.ch

aidanpendragon
Sep 17, 2007, 01:14 PM
This is witty, but bogus.

I finally got around to watching a video of the iTouch operation. About halfway through I realized that the cool features were all **iPod** activities Ė flipping through albums, selecting songs, buying from iTunes. The iTouch is very good indeed as an iPod. The screen problem seems to be a manufacturing issue Ė Iíll bet the factory changed a process to save some money and tried to sneak it through, hoping that nobody at Apple would notice. Itíll get fixed.

The complaints about ďcripplingĒ are all with respect to non-iPod functions. Apple has, openly and explicitly, not provided the stuff people have come to expect in PDAs. Maybe they feel they canít do it well yet? Perhaps not in this form? Perhaps they feel itís not worth doing? Itís clear that both the iPhone and the iTouch can be used for things that Apple has not planned for, yet. Iíve been tempted to get one and use it as a laptop replacement. But, Iíve decided that this size screen just canít do what I need, no matter how good the user interface is. Iíll wait for the next larger version.

If you want a video iPod, both the iTouch and the iPhone look great. If you want to use the iTouch as a PDA, either live with web apps or wait for the hackers to come through. Or be a hacker and make it do what you want. But donít bitch because Apple didnít make the gadget you would have made if you were them.

This is well said. Having wanted a video player, I'm very happy with my Touch (and its non-bad screen, lucky!). So far, it seems to excel for this purpose, which is clearly its intended use.

Now that there's no longer a price difference, if you want a swiss army web widget (more than a video player), get an iPhone and either register or unlock it. If you want video primarily, get a Touch. If you want music, get a Classic. If you want to not spend a lot, get a Nano. Seems to be fairly good market segmentation.

...If the iPhone was still $599, I could see complaining that the Touch isn't "everything but the Phone." But at $399, there are options.

jhsfosho
Sep 17, 2007, 01:20 PM
Well, I'm glad I waited until they were released until getting an ipod touch. I suppose I've waited this long, what does a little bit more waiting matter now. Please Apple, get this sorted out quickly.

celavato
Sep 17, 2007, 01:21 PM
For what it's worth, when I look at my iPhone straight on, the black areas look "shimmery" too. Tilting it slightly makes the picture look fine. I was slightly annoyed by this at first, but decided it's really not that big of a deal to just tilt the thing a little.

Yes, later model iPhones have the same "negative black" problem -- I have one. Here is a good test video -- watch the last 30 seconds and you'll know if your iPod touch or iPhone has this problem. If you click this link on your iPod touch or iPhone, the YouTube application will open and play the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuBoAPFRlDA

queshy
Sep 17, 2007, 01:22 PM
Alright, I've heard enough - my order has been cancelled. Until I can come to this forum and see that people are happy with the QC on the touch, I'm not going to buy it. I also don't want to buy it from the apple store because of their ridiculous return policies. I'll wait for it to come to future shop...they have a great return policy.

lorien
Sep 17, 2007, 01:23 PM
So much for watching Lord of the Rings on a touchpod :(

Mudo
Sep 17, 2007, 01:25 PM
And this is why I rarely am an early adopter. Cutting edge is ok, bleeding edge is expensive.

celavato
Sep 17, 2007, 01:26 PM
What amazes me is Microsoft/Dell/Sony hasn't figured this out yet. It's Apple's achieles heal. If I were working at one of those companies, I would position Apple as the "Ferrari" of the IT world. Beautiful, sure, but expensive and so riddled with quality issues, that the car is in the shop most of the time.

I think you mean Jaguar. Ferraris are actually quite reliable.

joemama
Sep 17, 2007, 01:27 PM
This is well said. Having wanted a video player, I'm very happy with my Touch (and its non-bad screen, lucky!). So far, it seems to excel for this purpose, which is clearly its intended use.

Now that there's no longer a price difference, if you want a swiss army web widget (more than a video player), get an iPhone and either register or unlock it. If you want video primarily, get a Touch. If you want music, get a Classic. If you want to not spend a lot, get a Nano. Seems to be fairly good market segmentation.

...If the iPhone was still $599, I could see complaining that the Touch isn't "everything but the Phone." But at $399, there are options.

I think you are missing the point. If people wanted to just play video, they would get the iPod Classic.

The iPod Touch was designed to be so much more...but it's not. The problem is Apple doesn't even know what the iPod Touch is supposed to be. It's an in-between device until storage prices come down. It will eventually be the "real" iPod, but for now it's stuck in limbo.

MonkeyHugger
Sep 17, 2007, 01:31 PM
The problem with the iTouch is they designed an excellent product but purposely made it worse, for silly market rubbish. How can anyone buy a product they know's been purposely made worse? Coupled with the woeful screens and ridiculous quality, it's an awful buy.

Cheap labour, cheap products.

gkarris
Sep 17, 2007, 01:34 PM
Alright, I've heard enough - my order has been cancelled. Until I can come to this forum and see that people are happy with the QC on the touch, I'm not going to buy it. I also don't want to buy it from the apple store because of their ridiculous return policies. I'll wait for it to come to future shop...they have a great return policy.

Good decision. I waited until now to get an iPhone - and way glad I did. They should have the Touch bugs worked out within a month... in time for the holiday shopping season.

whiteboytrash
Sep 17, 2007, 01:34 PM
quality control in general you mean.

i've never seen so many apple products that were of such low quality as these days. i would gladly pay more money for better quality...


Maybe because they sell more products these days that there is more chance of some failures/defects ? i.e. if they sell 100,000 macs a quarter with 100 failures - thats ok (0.1%).... but 60 million iPods with 100,000 failures doesn't read as well... although the ratio of produced v failure is there about the same.....

queshy
Sep 17, 2007, 01:45 PM
Good decision. I waited until now to get an iPhone - and way glad I did. They should have the Touch bugs worked out within a month... in time for the holiday shopping season.

Yeah...I just don't feel like playing a lottery, hoping that I get a good screen with no dead pixels or black issues and that the audio quality is just "okay" and not hissing like mad.

To add to that, I don't want to have to deal with snarky apple employees to get my money back. The crippled-nature of the iPod didn't really bother me...what bothers me a lot is how some users are actually having trouble returning these things, when the screens are clearly busted.

This reminds me of the macbook pro yellowing issue.

I'm starting to think Apple really does have some bad QC issues. Their stuff looks nice, but is often riddled with defects.

If you are lucky enough to get a "good" one, then their stuff is pretty good. Hopefully the Leopard CD I order will load once I put it in my computer...but then again Apple always surprises me!

macmagoo
Sep 17, 2007, 01:52 PM
I was able to get one in Alaska saturday, very impressed, wifi works great, video is fantastic no problems. Have noticed a little issue with dark videos. Every bit as good as my 80g, except much larger screen.
Could'nt be happier.

Rogzilla
Sep 17, 2007, 01:57 PM
You know, I noticed a VERY slight shimme in my black areas...but I just checked and they actually look pretty good. Nothing compared to what some people seem to be getting. Actually, to check, I watched some "Ask a Ninja" podcasts on here. Looks fan-fricking-tastic. I would think it would be very obvious if there were issues with black and dark areas during one of those.

I guess I just got lucky.

i0Nic
Sep 17, 2007, 02:01 PM
When I first decided to switch to Apple, I had heard statements such as 'never buy gen 1 apple products'. After reading forums, many said that these were just myths and that Apple has very high quality assurance and even if there were some bugs they would be quickly fixed in software updates.

So I took the plunge on a gen 1 macbook, amidst early claims of 'mooing' macbooks. After purchasing and the initial exciting stage of owning my first mac, it quickly became apparant that my macbook was displaying some issues. Firstly, the mooing was loud and interuptive in a library setting. My screen had a purple tinge that could not be removed with calibration. It also became very very hot under normal operating conditions on a table. Add to all this, it started to have the discolouring problem on the wristpad.

Jump forward to this point in time. I want an iPod touch. With these screen and audio issues, not to mention my annoyance at Apple for removing some software features they didn't have to, I am definately, definately not going to buy a gen 1 iPod touch.

Not sure what is up with Apple Quality Assurance, but it would be wise to stay away from any 1st gen Apple products from now on. I'm going to give it at least give it a couple of months before I get a touch.

mdriftmeyer
Sep 17, 2007, 02:03 PM
Couldn't agree more... I've posted several times on these forums regarding my issues with several MBP's that I no longer own - RETURNED! There seem to be so many problems with screens these day's - what is going on here?

Am I glad I got the "old" 24-inch iMac in White!

You mention returning several MacBook Pros and then being glad you got an "old" 24-inch iMac in White.

Is this a dig at the new iMac since you don't mention returning a single unit of this line? Or do you not see how disjointed this analogy appears to be?

goosnarrggh
Sep 17, 2007, 02:03 PM
The answer is arrogance.
I am switched to Mac from Win 98 and started to use again Win Xp a year ago. Guess what? Despite all insinuations it works. No viruses, nothing collapses, nothing jams. I didn't restart for 2 month already.After it when I compared specs I saw that usually all comes from Apple is overpriced. Lets remember the Mac Mini. Probably there is no any PC at the market today using such ancient hardware. Of course, Apple products are user-friendly, but should I pay twice only for elegance?
Last years Apple spends a lot of efforts trying to persuade people how their competitors are bad, and how Apple good and innovative. They'd better put more on a quality control an lower the price

This is not meant to be taken as argumentative, or any form of personal attack. It's posted out of genuine concern for the safety of your valuable or personal information on that Windows XP computer.

If you don't have an anti-virus program and incoming/outgoing firewall installed on your Windows XP machine, install them.

Now.

With a reputable anti-virus program and all the latest service packs, I agree that Windows XP is a very solid platform.

But the fact remains that, on an unprotected Windows machine, it's not a matter of "if" you'll pick up a virus, but "when".

O and A
Sep 17, 2007, 02:05 PM
Most comments I seem to remember regard the 16GB models, could this mean it only affects them... Post above states he has a good screen on this 8GB model.

thats becase the 16 gig ones are shpping first. I dont' think i've heard of any 8 gigs out in the wild... i could be wrong though.

matttrick
Sep 17, 2007, 02:06 PM
When I first decided to switch to Apple, I had heard statements such as 'never buy gen 1 apple products'. After reading forums, many said that these were just myths and that Apple has very high quality assurance and even if there were some bugs they would be quickly fixed in software updates.

So I took the plunge on a gen 1 macbook, amidst early claims of 'mooing' macbooks. After purchasing and the initial exciting stage of owning my first mac, it quickly became apparant that my macbook was displaying some issues. Firstly, the mooing was loud and interuptive in a library setting. My screen had a purple tinge that could not be removed with calibration. It also became very very hot under normal operating conditions on a table. Add to all this, it started to have the discolouring problem on the wristpad.

Jump forward to this point in time. I want an iPod touch. With these screen and audio issues, not to mention my annoyance at Apple for removing some software features they didn't have to, I am definately, definately not going to buy a gen 1 iPod touch.

Not sure what is up with Apple Quality Assurance, but it would be wise to stay away from any 1st gen Apple products from now on. I'm going to give it at least give it a couple of months before I get a touch.

but according to most mac afficianados, apple stuff just works, and microsoft is the devil for any errors you encounter. funny how this double standard is.

i0Nic
Sep 17, 2007, 02:11 PM
but according to most mac afficianados, apple stuff just works, and microsoft is the devil for any errors you encounter. funny how this double standard is.

Oh I forgot to mention, that when I took my macbook into the store to get it looked at, I was treated as if I was an idiot for thinking my mac had any problems. He listened to the macbook for mooing, looking up at me as if I was a retard 'computers make noises Sir, it's normal, it's not broken'. After the discolouring, 'maybe you should try washing your hands before using the macbook?'.

Luckily, I was able to get it replaced after complaining loudly to management and making a big scene in the store.

All in all, I like Apple products, the design is superb, but there are obviously some areas which need careful attention. Those early experiences with my macbook almost made me switch back to Windows, and I'll be damned if I'll let the same **** happen again by buying a touch as this point in time.

Honestly people, DON'T take a chance with the touch. Wait it out and see what happens with the screen, don't settle for products that are 'good enough' in quality.

queshy
Sep 17, 2007, 02:17 PM
Oh I forgot to mention, that when I took my macbook into the store to get it looked at, I was treated as if I was an idiot for thinking my mac had any problems. He listened to the macbook for mooing, looking up at me as if I was a retard 'computers make noises Sir, it's normal, it's not broken'. After the discolouring, 'maybe you should try washing your hands before using the macbook?'.

Luckily, I was able to get it replaced after complaining loudly to management and making a big scene in the store.

All in all, I like Apple products, the design is superb, but there are obviously some areas which need careful attention. Those early experiences with my macbook almost made me switch back to Windows, and I'll be damned if I'll let the same **** happen again by buying a touch as this point in time.

Honestly people, DON'T take a chance with the touch. Wait it out and see what happens with the screen, don't settle for products that are 'good enough' in quality.

Typical apple store happenings. It's almost as if apple tells them never to acknowledge any problems! I've seen (or shall I say heard) mooing macbooks...it's definitely not normal!

S_S
Sep 17, 2007, 02:22 PM
If you want to go back to the "Golden" time of Apple quality you need to go way back to the days of the PowerMac 7500. That thing was a brick house. Every thing I had before that (LC, Centris, etc..) was flawless and overbuilt. Everything after that seemed to have some kind of anoying design flaw or component faliure. Current Apple stuff is still pretty darn good but those were the days...

chicagostars
Sep 17, 2007, 02:34 PM
While there is value in just about every view, it is worth noting that people who are posting scathing comments at MacRumors, iLounge, et al are a very vocal MINORITY with often very extreme passions about the brand they support. Many of us were around to evangelize for Apple when it was a misdirected laughing-stock of a company . . . maybe we should pause to think about this in between our current rants. Doesn't make difficulties easier, just something to think about.

Should have save a little extra for the IIci instead of getting the IIsi, but I think my heart has sufficiently healed. Now my 190cs is a different story . . . :)

dal20402
Sep 17, 2007, 02:37 PM
But the fact remains that, on an unprotected Windows machine, it's not a matter of "if" you'll pick up a virus, but "when".

I don't like seeing statements like this because they rob credibility from the very true argument that it's *easier* to keep a Mac virus-free.

I've run Windows machines without AV software since XP SP2 came out without a single malware or virus problem. You just have to be careful about where you surf, what browser you use, and what you download. (For pre-SP2 Windows OSes your statement is true.)

The dirty little secret here is that people really *want* to visit dodgy sites and download dodgy software for a whole host of reasons... it's certainly easier to protect yourself on a Mac when you do so.

artalliance
Sep 17, 2007, 02:40 PM
Yes, later model iPhones have the same "negative black" problem -- I have one. Here is a good test video -- watch the last 30 seconds and you'll know if your iPod touch or iPhone has this problem. If you click this link on your iPod touch or iPhone, the YouTube application will open and play the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuBoAPFRlDA

Which screen series are you talking about? I haven't read any reports of the negative black issue on the iphone.

dal20402
Sep 17, 2007, 02:41 PM
If you want to go back to the "Golden" time of Apple quality you need to go way back to the days of the PowerMac 7500. That thing was a brick house. Every thing I had before that (LC, Centris, etc..) was flawless and overbuilt. Everything after that seemed to have some kind of anoying design flaw or component faliure. Current Apple stuff is still pretty darn good but those were the days...

The only Mac failure I've ever had was a Plus that, as many others did, lunched a power supply. Older is not always better...

Macs have been failing for a long time. I don't believe they fail now in significantly greater numbers. What has changed is that Apple is more willing to cut costs in areas easily perceived by the user, especially displays, which should be the last place where costs are cut.

Using a TN screen on a high-end AIO (the 20" iMac) is ridiculous. Not using the iPhone screen on the high-end iPod touch (if that is what's happening) is equally ridiculous. And, now that IPS laptop screens are available (as used by Lenovo), using TN screens on MacBook Pros is ridiculous. There's only one thing people stare at all the time on a piece of electronics... the screen. Cut costs in other places first.

gkarris
Sep 17, 2007, 02:50 PM
Yes, later model iPhones have the same "negative black" problem -- I have one. Here is a good test video -- watch the last 30 seconds and you'll know if your iPod touch or iPhone has this problem. If you click this link on your iPod touch or iPhone, the YouTube application will open and play the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuBoAPFRlDA

Whoa, good thing I went with the older, 4Gig, "closeout" model....

Unspeaked
Sep 17, 2007, 03:08 PM
What amazes me is Microsoft/Dell/Sony hasn't figured this out yet. It's Apple's achieles heal. If I were working at one of those companies, I would position Apple as the "Ferrari" of the IT world. Beautiful, sure, but expensive and so riddled with quality issues, that the car is in the shop most of the time.

See, this makes the assumption that Microsoft/Dell/Sony really care about Apple.

Sure, we get the occasional sound bite from an executive or CEO commenting on Apple (usually when directly prompted by the media and not just out of the blue) but the fact of the matter is, Apple is still a small fry compared to the three companies you quoted (with a third as much annual revenue as any of them) and they're not as likely to stage the kind of smear campaigns that Apple is fond of (Redmond, start your photocopiers...)

Unspeaked
Sep 17, 2007, 03:16 PM
If you want to go back to the "Golden" time of Apple quality you need to go way back to the days of the PowerMac 7500. That thing was a brick house. Every thing I had before that (LC, Centris, etc..) was flawless and overbuilt. Everything after that seemed to have some kind of anoying design flaw or component faliure. Current Apple stuff is still pretty darn good but those were the days...

It's funny, but you're so right.

Around the time Jobs came back and the iMac was introduced, things have slowly gotten worse and worse.

And I do mean slowly. Slightly cheaper parts with each generation, slightly more problems with rev A's... the machines from '92-'97 or so were solid as a rock. I still know people who run PowerMac 9600s as daily machines!

powderblue17
Sep 17, 2007, 03:20 PM
It's funny, but you're so right.

Around the time Jobs came back and the iMac was introduced, things have slowly gotten worse and worse.

And I do mean slowly. Slightly cheaper parts with each generation, slightly more problems with rev A's... the machines from '92-'97 or so were solid as a rock. I still know people who run PowerMac 9600s as daily machines!

Oh yes those were the days. Everything Apple produced was perfect back then. Especially the famous PowerBook 5300. If only Apple could produce hardware like that now. Those were the days.:)

Unspeaked
Sep 17, 2007, 03:21 PM
I don't like seeing statements like this because they rob credibility from the very true argument that it's *easier* to keep a Mac virus-free.

I've run Windows machines without AV software since XP SP2 came out without a single malware or virus problem. You just have to be careful about where you surf, what browser you use, and what you download. (For pre-SP2 Windows OSes your statement is true.)

Wait, so it's not easier to keep a Mac virus-free as long as you are careful about where you surf, what browser you use and what you download?

Um, you don't think you contradict yourself a little there?

Unspeaked
Sep 17, 2007, 03:22 PM
Oh yes those were the days. Everything Apple produced was perfect back then. Especially the famous PowerBook 5300. If only Apple could produce hardware like that now. Those were the days.:)

You mean the one with the *Sony* battery that caused problems?

:)


PS - Sorry for my 50 posts in a row... I've just been replying as I go...

dariusperkins
Sep 17, 2007, 03:30 PM
hmm. how many iphones have this happened to, or is it generally exclusive to the touch?

a little off topic, but how can apple charge £50 ($100) more for the same ipod touch in the UK??

i guess we're paying for all that iphone US instore credit...

Football1maniac
Sep 17, 2007, 03:33 PM
My new iPod touch is the best iPod yet. But... there are some features that I wish it had. Obviously the Web clients such as Mail, Google Maps, etc. But the thing about the screen issue, I sure do see it. Now, I have always been a fan of Apple, but now I am sort of getting frustrated about the quality of their products. I'm not being sarcastic or anything, but hopefully Apple will reimburse us some type of credit for these screen issues. I am not returning mine to get a new iPod. I went an hour out of my life to buy one, and they want me to do it again to EXCHANGE it. I'm not all that pleased Mr. Jobs, I want some type of reimbursement. Thank you.

Evangelion
Sep 17, 2007, 03:37 PM
i had already decided to get the touch, but i wanted to wait for the first reviews. and it's a good thing i did. my purchase has been postponed indefinitely until these issues have been resolved. while i WANT the touch, i do not NEED it. i can wait. and if apple wants my money, they need to get their act together.

La Porta
Sep 17, 2007, 03:38 PM
It's funny, but you're so right.

Around the time Jobs came back and the iMac was introduced, things have slowly gotten worse and worse.

And I do mean slowly. Slightly cheaper parts with each generation, slightly more problems with rev A's... the machines from '92-'97 or so were solid as a rock. I still know people who run PowerMac 9600s as daily machines!

A lot of it isn't all Apple's fault: it's the market. I do agree that quality has slipped (my iMac DV SE from back in 2000 needed an MB, HD, and analog board changed out of it...all on separate occasions). But in order for Apple to keep up and stay competitive, they have to keep prives down and "cool features" up. Gone are the days where people were ok with dumping $7k on a computer. All the other companies are dropping out $699 POSes that appeal to people just because they are $699. So Apple needs to make cool stuff to keep interest. Problem is, cool stuff is inherently more expensive. So to offset this, they keep getting worse and worse parts suppliers in Taiwan, China, etc to keep the costs down for us and profit up with them. Am I happy about it? No: i'd rather pay $699 for an iPod Touch that is perfect rather than $399 for one that isn't. The problem is, most people wouldn't because if it is grossly overpriced, cool won't be enough to sell it alone.

Football1maniac
Sep 17, 2007, 03:41 PM
A lot of it isn't all Apple's fault: it's the market. I do agree that quality has slipped (my iMac DV SE from back in 2000 needed an MB, HD, and analog board changed out of it...all on separate occasions). But in order for Apple to keep up and stay competitive, they have to keep prives down and "cool features" up. Gone are the days where people were ok with dumping $7k on a computer. All the other companies are dropping out $699 POSes that appeal to people just because they are $699. So Apple needs to make cool stuff to keep interest. Problem is, cool stuff is inherently more expensive. So to offset this, they keep getting worse and worse parts suppliers in Taiwan, China, etc to keep the costs down for us and profit up with them. Am I happy about it? No: i'd rather pay $699 for an iPod Touch that is perfect rather than $399 for one that isn't. The problem is, most people wouldn't because if it is grossly overpriced, cool won't be enough to sell it alone.

I agree fully. I do believe that Apple needs to do something about this huge problem. Like I said before, I am not being sarcastic but I think some type of a reimbursement will be satisfactory.

La Porta
Sep 17, 2007, 03:47 PM
I agree fully. I do believe that Apple needs to do something about this huge problem. Like I said before, I am not being sarcastic but I think some type of a reimbursement will be satisfactory.

One mine actually ships...I will have to see for myself just how bad this is. If it is truly awful...you may be right.

RCGMac
Sep 17, 2007, 03:50 PM
thats becase the 16 gig ones are shpping first. I dont' think i've heard of any 8 gigs out in the wild... i could be wrong though.

I have an 8 GB model, that I bought on Friday morning, but I don't think there are many 8 GB's out in the wild yet. BTW, my Touch is working great, but I will continue to put it through its paces.

twoodcc
Sep 17, 2007, 03:52 PM
dang, not good. hopefully apple will fix the issue though

Football1maniac
Sep 17, 2007, 03:54 PM
One mine actually ships...I will have to see for myself just how bad this is. If it is truly awful...you may be right.

It's not just the screen (mainly it though) but other problems have risen too. The crippled iPhone features are horrible. The Safari client is nice, but when I go to certain websites (such as aol.com, nfl.com) the client crashes. Hopefully I do get some money back from Apple.

whatever
Sep 17, 2007, 03:58 PM
What amazes me is Microsoft/Dell/Sony hasn't figured this out yet. It's Apple's achieles heal. If I were working at one of those companies, I would position Apple as the "Ferrari" of the IT world. Beautiful, sure, but expensive and so riddled with quality issues, that the car is in the shop most of the time.

The reason why you won't see Microsoft/Dell/Sony attack Apple's quality control is because they have much worst quality control problems.

From the high failure rates of the xBox 360 (between 30 - 35%), Sony's PS3 not being as backward compatible with the PS2 and Dell....where would on begin!

irun5k
Sep 17, 2007, 03:58 PM
Apple needs to give those Chinese people a rase, I'm not joking. The quality control is really slipping.

Well, then you would just have the same workers screwing stuff up but making more money while they are at it.

So you have to (1) fire everyone and then (2) raise salaries, then (3) re-hire with more stringent requirements and hopefully this will be easier since the higher salary should attract more experienced/detail oriented laborers.

But you've got the right idea. You get what you pay for in the labor market. Cheaper isn't always better.

whatever
Sep 17, 2007, 04:04 PM
Alright, I've heard enough - my order has been cancelled. Until I can come to this forum and see that people are happy with the QC on the touch, I'm not going to buy it. I also don't want to buy it from the apple store because of their ridiculous return policies. I'll wait for it to come to future shop...they have a great return policy.

You'll be waiting a long time.

People on this forum are never happy or satisfied. And like I said the majority of the people posting are the minority of the people buying the iPod Touch. The happy campers are too busy enjoying their new toys to post.

And the negative people in two weeks will be going gun ho about the "new" iPod Touch.

If I was you I would buy one (at an Apple Store) and if you don't like it return it, but make up your own mind.

La Porta
Sep 17, 2007, 04:08 PM
I have to admit, I am one of those blind-faith kind of idiots, so we will see how it goes when it gets here.

whatever
Sep 17, 2007, 04:11 PM
If you want to go back to the "Golden" time of Apple quality you need to go way back to the days of the PowerMac 7500. That thing was a brick house. Every thing I had before that (LC, Centris, etc..) was flawless and overbuilt. Everything after that seemed to have some kind of anoying design flaw or component faliure. Current Apple stuff is still pretty darn good but those were the days...

Having used Macs since, well since there were called just Macintoshs, I have to say there never was a golden age for Apple. I'm not saying that their products sucked, but there has always been problems/issues/bugs.

Don't let anyone fool you!

This is pretty much normal, the only thing that has changed is that now there are forums where people can openly vent about problems/issues/bugs (or PIBs for short).

badapple18
Sep 17, 2007, 04:17 PM
I purchased my 8 gig ipod touch here in the Phoenix AZ apple store (last one ;) well anyway i do not have this problem with the black screen my Mom and my brother both got the iphone the second it was released and my screen looks just as good as theres playing the same videos side by side i have been trying to snap a picture but i keep grabing to much glare i will try to get some when i get home tonight.

I think that the 8 gig ipod touchs might not have been efected by this screen issue so anybody else out there want to shed some light on there 8 gig models?

Oh and to the people who are worried about it not having more PDA functionality don't worry about that we will be having all of that shortly just give it some time look how far people have came with as little time as iphone now it can be unlocked fully and run 3rd party aps. and look at the guys who did ipod linux (and others) "where there is a will there is a way" we WILL be having those iphone aps soon and that is ONLY the begining.

forgot to quote it but a guy on a earlier post posted that all these people claiming to cancel there orders for there ipod touch i call bs on some if not all i do not doubt it stopped you from buying one after the fact but people who usually pre-order something do not back out so easily.:confused: just my opinion though

whatever
Sep 17, 2007, 04:18 PM
It's not just the screen (mainly it though) but other problems have risen too. The crippled iPhone features are horrible. The Safari client is nice, but when I go to certain websites (such as aol.com, nfl.com) the client crashes. Hopefully I do get some money back from Apple.

What like a rebate? Dream on. If you don't like it return it.

Didn't you try it out before you bought it? You know go to your favorite websites?

The NFL website is actually a pretty bad website to began with. I believe they have a lot of Flash in play there. So unless you've been living under a rock for the last couple of months you would know that the neither the iPhone or the iPod Touch currently support Flash. This is not a Safari issue as much as Adobe needs to port the Flash plugin to support the ARM Processor.

irun5k
Sep 17, 2007, 04:22 PM
I remember seeing what happened between the early iMac G5 and later G5's thinking it was going downhill. True, it is in the inside of the case where most will never see it. But, I dunno, I've got respect for things that are architected well. It is like if you see your house being built and the contractors involved are using good, hand picked lumber and not cutting corners in places that will be theoretically hidden from view.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/30/88928219_536b2391bd.jpg

Larger size (http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=88928219&size=o)

queshy
Sep 17, 2007, 04:29 PM
You'll be waiting a long time.

People on this forum are never happy or satisfied. And like I said the majority of the people posting are the minority of the people buying the iPod Touch. The happy campers are too busy enjoying their new toys to post.

And the negative people in two weeks will be going gun ho about the "new" iPod Touch.

If I was you I would buy one (at an Apple Store) and if you don't like it return it, but make up your own mind.

As of now, in my eyes, it appears that most of the iPod touches (sp?) out there have some sort of problem. So it's for that reason I cancelled my online order - I don't want to have to call apple, send it back, etc, it's a big headache (those who have done it before will probably agree).

I don't want to buy at my local apple store because I don't think it's right to have to "prove" that there's a problem with it. At Future Shop, if you say there's a problem with it, they take it back. I worked at FS this summer, and while the company isn't perfect (What company is?), what I do think they have is that they (often) provide great customer service.

I bought a laptop there a few years ago (around 5), and it was really great, except that in the 2nd week of usage, I noticed that the floppy drive wasn't working (yeah, go ahead and laugh - it had a floppy drive!).

So I go back to FS, and I go to the customer service counter, and although I was waiting in line for a bit (whatever), once it was my turn, I simply said the floppy drive doesn't work. She offered me either a full refund, or an exchange, or another model. I asked for an exchange. They called the technician over and he just wanted to make sure everything was in the box and that nothing was missing/scratched. Then, they called a salesman over to go get my a new one. And that was that.

This summer though, they changed it a bit - now the technician sometimes opens up the ram/hd bay to see if the customer took any of it out before trying to return it. But the exchange process is pretty much the same.

In fact, I sold someone a MacBook once. As salesmen, we get to keep track of our sales/returns (obviously returns mean that we didn't satisfy the customers need enough, so our ranking would go down a bit). But it just so happened that instead of me finding out he returned it in the computer, I saw him come back in person because his macbook wasn't working well, he said it was overheating and that it was much louder than his friend's ( I was standing there at customer service while this happened). Simply enough, I went to get him a new one and he was off. He never came back after that.

What happens when I try and return a MacBook? This happens (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=343603).

That being said, I now laugh at Apple's return policy.

I know that if I buy my iPod Touch from FS and that if there's even one single dead pixel, I won't have to call the corporate office in order to get a replacement.

FS and BB have many problems, but so does Apple, both in terms of QC and customer service. And in my case, I'd rather deal with FS's and BB's rather than with Apple's.

Football1maniac
Sep 17, 2007, 04:32 PM
What like a rebate? Dream on. If you don't like it return it.

Didn't you try it out before you bought it? You know go to your favorite websites?

The NFL website is actually a pretty bad website to began with. I believe they have a lot of Flash in play there. So unless you've been living under a rock for the last couple of months you would know that the neither the iPhone or the iPod Touch currently support Flash. This is not a Safari issue as much as Adobe needs to port the Flash plugin to support the ARM Processor.

I went to a Best Buy to buy it and they didn't have anyone on display. I've been waiting for this product since the iPhone was announced back in June. And yes, a rebate would be satisfactory for me. And about the whole rock thing, no I haven't. I knew more about this product minutes after it was announced then you will know in a lifetime. But I never thought that a website could hurt a product so badly. That is inexcusable, and besides, everyone is demanding for those "extra" applications that the iPhone has. The iPod touch is crippled, but hopefully it will recover. And no, I have no intentions on returning it since even though it has its flaws, it's the best MP3 player in the world. But those kinks that are just stupid to have, are uncalled for.

My point of view, and hopefully someone from Apple is reading this.:apple:

Cloudane
Sep 17, 2007, 04:35 PM
Hmm, got to admit this has me worried. I've counted maybe 2 people in this thread who are actually happy with their screens.

Maybe it's just that most people only have something to say when it's negative (rings true) but who knows....

It seems to prove my theory that Apple really didn't want to make an "iPod Touch" but threw one together... quite literally... to avoid embarrassment with all the rumours. And because they had to drop the price of the iPhone to keep it competitive with the new product, that gets a cheap and nasty screen too.

I so hope it's wrong. Otherwise Apple have started Cutting Corners, which I'd always believed (even when people said otherwise) they they didn't do. After all we pay a premium for Apple products, it's nice to think that it's going towards something other than the brand name.

I know it's kind of silly, but I've watched the *boxes* for iPods deterioriate in quality from the exciting split cube box of the 3rd gen to the very unexciting and basic one you get nowadays. Packaging is one of the most pointless things around in theory, but in practice it's a place to show off your attention to detail.

Don't know what to do. I thought a 14-day return policy was law in the UK for online orders, but seemingly that only applies to finance or insurance policies. I'd always planned that if the Touch was a lemon rather than an Apple, it'd go straight back...

whatever
Sep 17, 2007, 04:50 PM
As of now, in my eyes, it appears that most of the iPod touches (sp?) out there have some sort of problem. So it's for that reason I cancelled my online order - I don't want to have to call apple, send it back, etc, it's a big headache (those who have done it before will probably agree).

I don't want to buy at my local apple store because I don't think it's right to have to "prove" that there's a problem with it. At Future Shop, if you say there's a problem with it, they take it back. I worked at FS this summer, and while the company isn't perfect (What company is?), what I do think they have is that they (often) provide great customer service.

I bought a laptop there a few years ago (around 5), and it was really great, except that in the 2nd week of usage, I noticed that the floppy drive wasn't working (yeah, go ahead and laugh - it had a floppy drive!).

So I go back to FS, and I go to the customer service counter, and although I was waiting in line for a bit (whatever), once it was my turn, I simply said the floppy drive doesn't work. She offered me either a full refund, or an exchange, or another model. I asked for an exchange. They called the technician over and he just wanted to make sure everything was in the box and that nothing was missing/scratched. Then, they called a salesman over to go get my a new one. And that was that.

This summer though, they changed it a bit - now the technician sometimes opens up the ram/hd bay to see if the customer took any of it out before trying to return it. But the exchange process is pretty much the same.

In fact, I sold someone a MacBook once. As salesmen, we get to keep track of our sales/returns (obviously returns mean that we didn't satisfy the customers need enough, so our ranking would go down a bit). But it just so happened that instead of me finding out he returned it in the computer, I saw him come back in person because his macbook wasn't working well, he said it was overheating and that it was much louder than his friend's ( I was standing there at customer service while this happened). Simply enough, I went to get him a new one and he was off. He never came back after that.

What happens when I try and return a MacBook? This happens (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=343603).

That being said, I now laugh at Apple's return policy.

I know that if I buy my iPod Touch from FS and that if there's even one single dead pixel, I won't have to call the corporate office in order to get a replacement.

FS and BB have many problems, but so does Apple, both in terms of QC and customer service. And in my case, I'd rather deal with FS's and BB's rather than with Apple's.

Just read your story and have to say that your sister encountered a bad employee. Does that happen, yes, since you're in retail you should know first hand.

I don't want to get into a debate over Apple's Customer support. However, let me share with you two stories. My sister brought in an old iBook to a local Apple Store. All she knew about it was that it didn't work, that it was old and that it might have Apple Care. After about five minutes with the Apple Genius she was told that the computer did have Apple Care and they shipped it out and a week later she had a fixed iBook. Two weeks later she brings another iBook in and they do the same thing. Quick and easy.

A few months ago, my nephew's iBook died, so I brought it into the Apple Store and again after five minutes we determined what was wrong and what the current warranty was on the iBook. This one was not under warranty and Apple Care was not purchased for it, however the Genius advised me what to do and gave me some options. Yet, another good experience.

Your sister should have looked into Apple's return policy. There is no restocking fee for a damaged (less than a day you say) computer! She should have tried to talk to the same sales rep. that sold her the computer and if she didn't know who that was, she should have had them look it up (that information is available) and if she was not satisfied, she should have contacted the manager.

Granted in a perfect situation, the computer would be perfect and if it wasn't then the employees at the store that sold it to her should be bending over backwards for her, but that's not always the case (a good friend of mine bought a Jeep Commander and paid cash for it. When she drove it off the lot the sun roof was leaking. She returned it, and the sales person wanted to schedule a repair. She told them they could either repair the car then or give her a new car or give her a refund. They repaired the car and then she brought it to a car wash and it still leaked, so she went back to the dealer and demanded a refund and got one!).

whatever
Sep 17, 2007, 05:02 PM
I went to a Best Buy to buy it and they didn't have anyone on display. I've been waiting for this product since the iPhone was announced back in June. And yes, a rebate would be satisfactory for me. And about the whole rock thing, no I haven't. I knew more about this product minutes after it was announced then you will know in a lifetime. But I never thought that a website could hurt a product so badly. That is inexcusable, and besides, everyone is demanding for those "extra" applications that the iPhone has. The iPod touch is crippled, but hopefully it will recover. And no, I have no intentions on returning it since even though it has its flaws, it's the best MP3 player in the world. But those kinks that are just stupid to have, are uncalled for.

My point of view, and hopefully someone from Apple is reading this.:apple:
The iPod Touch is not a crippled iPhone. If it had Bluetooth and Phone hardware built into it and had them disabled via software, then I would call it a crippled iPhone, but it does not.

Is the iPod Classic a crippled iPod Touch, because it doesn't have a touch screen? No, because it's not a feature of the product. So how can you call the iPod Touch a crippled iPhone. It does what's it's advertised to do.

If you really new more about the iPod touch upon it's launch than I would know in a lifetime (a bet I'm willing to take since you didn't know that the NFL website would crash it and I did, because it crashed in the iPhone...) then why didn't you know that it didn't support Flash?

Don't hold your breath for a rebate. You won't be seeing one. However, if there is a defect in your iPod Touch, I recommend that you get a new one and complain about it.

Stella
Sep 17, 2007, 05:06 PM
a little off topic, but how can apple charge £50 ($100) more for the same ipod touch in the UK??

Because they can. The UK consumers will whine but still buy.

Rip Off Britain.

The British should strike like the French do.. French are very good and effective and tend to get what they want as a result.

The iPod Touch is not a crippled iPhone. If it had Bluetooth and Phone hardware built into it and had them disabled via software, then I would call it a crippled iPhone, but it does not.


Customer expectations. When SJ said its like an iPhone with the telephone part.. people expected it to have the same iPhone software ( except for what he said was missing - widgets etc ). Then a week later, Apple start removing features..

Scarpad
Sep 17, 2007, 05:13 PM
My Local Best Buy had one on display, but it looks like Apple ships these with hardly any content on it for video or music. It had the same two vids the nano sports, the one about the skaters and a Promo for ESPN. The Skating vid was'nt the best test of the screen, but it did have some black and white sections. First thing I had to do was take it out of "Torch" mode BB jacks the brightness to Full. I put it about Midway. I saw none of the evidence of the really bad screens I've been seeing here. I could see no negatives in the blacks, and the Detail was OK. That being said, I think this screen is never going to be what the Iphone is. The Contrast just isn't there, the deep rich blacks are missing, being somewhat of a contrast whore I'm definately skipping the Touch. The Screen IMHO does'nt even come close to my Cowon A2, or the 1st Gen PSP either, although it's closer to the PSP. Now it may just be that Touchscreens cannot be that detailed or contrasty. I hear the Archos 604 was better than it's successor the 605 in reproducing blacks. The Difference touchscreen.

But besides the screen, I saw really slow load times on the Safari browser and You Tube. I wanted something snappier than the PSP browser and my Axim browser but sadly this ain't it. So if I can ever get thru to Apple I'm cancelling my Preorder...

powderblue17
Sep 17, 2007, 05:23 PM
My Local Best Buy had one on display, but it looks like Apple ships these with hardly any content on it for video or music. It had the same two vids the nano sports, the one about the skaters and a Promo for ESPN. The Skating vid was'nt the best test of the screen, but it did have some black and white sections. First thing I had to do was take it out of "Torch" mode BB jacks the brightness to Full. I put it about Midway. I saw none of the evidence of the really bad screens I've been seeing here. I could see no negatives in the blacks, and the Detail was OK. That being said, I think this screen is never going to be what the Iphone is. The Contrast just isn't there, the deep rich blacks are missing, being somewhat of a contrast whore I'm definately skipping the Touch. The Screen IMHO does'nt even come close to my Cowon A2, or the 1st Gen PSP either, although it's closer to the PSP. Now it may just be that Touchscreens cannot be that detailed or contrasty. I hear the Archos 604 was better than it's successor the 605 in reproducing blacks. The Difference touchscreen.

But besides the screen, I saw really slow load times on the Safari browser and You Tube. I wanted something snappier than the PSP browser and my Axim browser but sadly this ain't it. So if I can ever get thru to Apple I'm cancelling my Preorder...

Did you ever stop to think that maybe it had a weak wireless connection. I mean you were at Best Buy for goodness sakes. Everyone says if you have a strong connection then Safari should be plenty fast.

Fluffymuff
Sep 17, 2007, 05:30 PM
People on that YouTube discussion are saying they're canceling their Touch orders.

This is no time to be an Apple apologist; we must hold Apple's feet to the fire until they smell like a delicious baked apple.
You are making me want to go out and buy a Touch just to get that deliciously baked apple smell.

I don't think Apple is plagued by more quality control issues now than before, it's just that their volume is so much greater overall, that if there is a 1% problem, 1% is a thousand times bigger than it was before. And everyone's watching...

Scarpad
Sep 17, 2007, 05:36 PM
Did you ever stop to think that maybe it had a weak wireless connection. I mean you were at Best Buy for goodness sakes. Everyone says if you have a strong connection then Safari should be plenty fast.

the connection was srong but i'm cancelling mainly for the screen.

Cloudane
Sep 17, 2007, 05:49 PM
a little off topic, but how can apple charge £50 ($100) more for the same ipod touch in the UK??

The same reason every other manufacturer of any other product usually makes a $1=£1 conversion: because our government (well, I guess the EU) force them to. Importing products from outside the EU costs a lot of money (with the exception of a few small-time eBayers who illegally write "gift, value $30" on the package). Usually 17.5% VAT gets added on, plus import duty (varies... usually 5-10% I believe) plus the less visible costs of a big product being made for a smaller country.

Be thankful that Apple don't take the piss, as I've seen *much* worse, usually out of the likes of Sony. In this case I'm pretty sure they're literally only recouping their costs.

If you want to be able to boast (as a country) about having a strong currency, this is unfortunately the price we have to pay.

queshy
Sep 17, 2007, 05:50 PM
[...]Your sister should have looked into Apple's return policy. There is no restocking fee for a damaged (less than a day you say) computer! She should have tried to talk to the same sales rep. that sold her the computer and if she didn't know who that was, she should have had them look it up (that information is available) and if she was not satisfied, she should have contacted the manager.

Granted in a perfect situation, the computer would be perfect and if it wasn't then the employees at the store that sold it to her should be bending over backwards for her, but that's not always the case (a good friend of mine bought a Jeep Commander and paid cash for it. [...]

Slow down there...if you read the whole story (well, all of my posts in that thread), you might consider editing your post.

I don't want to debate Apple's customer service, either, because in general they are very good. But in my opinion a bad experience like this makes me canceling my touch order much more reasonable.

pubius
Sep 17, 2007, 05:52 PM
It is not really possible to dispute this problem anymore. This is far too widespread, massively reported, and I (a huge supporter of Apple) have the same problem. If you don't believe how widespread this is, have a look around (away from macrumors?).

The thread on apple's support/discussion/ipod touch about this has over 20k views, and that's just one thread about this, there are plenty of others.

Just for reference, this is the problem in all it's glory...
http://home.comcast.net/~audi-fan/IMG_5940.jpg
here is also a good comparison with the iphone...
http://www.apple-touch.com/ipod-touch-screen-problem-negative-black-effect-1534.php

I did a side by side (with an iphone) with this video (which is a pretty good reference)...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=gyP8kEiHKxA

Now some people have been reporting that sometimes the problem (the negative, looks like you are looking at a screen wearing 3-d glasses thing) is there, then all of a sudden, they are somewhere else... and it's gone. So I tried out different situations...

We did the test by the window at my work (lots of natural light coming in), and presto!, the negative effect was gone! When just last night in a much darker situation (at my house) this scene was absolutely unbearable with the 3-d negative thing. Granted, the iphone still looked way better. My blacks washed into an ocean of blackness where all detail was gone while on the iphone i could totally make out the scenes. But I will go on record saying that there does seem to be an issue with the lighting of the room.

The worst thing about this is that people are going to the apple store under bright lights and these mighty apple folk are like 'i don't see much of a problem'... when there really is a problem.

Anyway, there is a real problem. I don't want to have to be in the perfect light at the perfect angle to view a product doing what it was designed to do.

Those of you with no problem, try it out in a darker situation, hopefully you'll still be all good, but... you never know.

p.s. - adjusting the brightness does nothing

Fluffymuff
Sep 17, 2007, 05:54 PM
How quickly they forget. There were problems with all of those products that you mention (G5 loud fans, PowerBooks and iBooks with there pre-MagSafe connectors, to name a few).

After the original 256k Mac, the 512 "fat" mac had an eating disorder. The first Apple laptop had a self-esteem problem, and the original iPod would tear up and cry for no apparent reason.

Not to be an apologist, but every company has problems, and given Apple's increasing size (Apple currently employs in excess of 200 full time workers, and at least half that amount again in part-timer workers) there's bound a loose screw here or there.

It may also be that the screens are alive, and the shimmering effect is an artifact of the bioluminescence of, say, dinoflagellates or some such genetically-altered organism coaxed to fluoresce for the sake of our media watching pleasure.

chicagostars
Sep 17, 2007, 06:31 PM
hmm. how many iphones have this happened to, or is it generally exclusive to the touch?

a little off topic, but how can apple charge £50 ($100) more for the same ipod touch in the UK??

i guess we're paying for all that iphone US instore credit...

. . . but the Pound is still destroying every other currency out there.

La Porta
Sep 17, 2007, 06:35 PM
After the original 256k Mac, the 512 "fat" mac had an eating disorder. The first Apple laptop had a self-esteem problem, and the original iPod would tear up and cry for no apparent reason.


Original Mac was 128k.

Football1maniac
Sep 17, 2007, 07:06 PM
The iPod Touch is not a crippled iPhone. If it had Bluetooth and Phone hardware built into it and had them disabled via software, then I would call it a crippled iPhone, but it does not.

Is the iPod Classic a crippled iPod Touch, because it doesn't have a touch screen? No, because it's not a feature of the product. So how can you call the iPod Touch a crippled iPhone. It does what's it's advertised to do.

If you really new more about the iPod touch upon it's launch than I would know in a lifetime (a bet I'm willing to take since you didn't know that the NFL website would crash it and I did, because it crashed in the iPhone...) then why didn't you know that it didn't support Flash?

Don't hold your breath for a rebate. You won't be seeing one. However, if there is a defect in your iPod Touch, I recommend that you get a new one and complain about it.

The iPod Classic is in a whole different type of marketing scheme then the iPod touch. If you want bigger storage, and don't care about the screen size, then the iPod classic is for you. But then again, do you even have an iPod touch? The iPod touch is a crippled iPhone. Period. What is the iPhone minus the phone? And about the NFL site, sure I knew that it wouldn't work because of Flash, but how did I know that it would freeze the whole device?! The rebate or some type of reimbursement will come if enough people demand for it. Just look at the darn iPhone.

chicagostars
Sep 17, 2007, 07:06 PM
You'll be waiting a long time.

People on this forum are never happy or satisfied. And like I said the majority of the people posting are the minority of the people buying the iPod Touch. The happy campers are too busy enjoying their new toys to post.

And the negative people in two weeks will be going gun ho about the "new" iPod Touch.

If I was you I would buy one (at an Apple Store) and if you don't like it return it, but make up your own mind.

I agree. Apple smart marks, sometimes there doesn't seems to be a reason for the gloomy comments other than to spread negativity. Even if the stated reasons for your criticisms were resolved, you would still find something to complain about.

celavato
Sep 17, 2007, 07:26 PM
Which screen series are you talking about? I haven't read any reports of the negative black issue on the iphone.

I have a "7" screen, but I don't think all 7 screens have this problem. I have read other reports -- see the Apple Discussion Forums. One guy said he bought an iPhone last week that has this problem. It does not seem as widespread as the touch. I'm bringing mine back now that the Geniuses will know what I'm talking about. I recommend you load a video that will clearly demonstrate this issue to the Genius.

chicagostars
Sep 17, 2007, 07:29 PM
It is not really possible to dispute this problem anymore. This is far too widespread, massively reported, and I (a huge supporter of Apple) have the same problem. If you don't believe how widespread this is, have a look around (away from macrumors?).

The thread on apple's support/discussion/ipod touch about this has over 20k views, and that's just one thread about this, there are plenty of others.

Just for reference, this is the problem in all it's glory...
http://home.comcast.net/~audi-fan/IMG_5940.jpg
here is also a good comparison with the iphone...
http://www.apple-touch.com/ipod-touch-screen-problem-negative-black-effect-1534.php

I did a side by side (with an iphone) with this video (which is a pretty good reference)...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=gyP8kEiHKxA

Now some people have been reporting that sometimes the problem (the negative, looks like you are looking at a screen wearing 3-d glasses thing) is there, then all of a sudden, they are somewhere else... and it's gone. So I tried out different situations...

We did the test by the window at my work (lots of natural light coming in), and presto!, the negative effect was gone! When just last night in a much darker situation (at my house) this scene was absolutely unbearable with the 3-d negative thing. Granted, the iphone still looked way better. My blacks washed into an ocean of blackness where all detail was gone while on the iphone i could totally make out the scenes. But I will go on record saying that there does seem to be an issue with the lighting of the room.

The worst thing about this is that people are going to the apple store under bright lights and these mighty apple folk are like 'i don't see much of a problem'... when there really is a problem.

Anyway, there is a real problem. I don't want to have to be in the perfect light at the perfect angle to view a product doing what it was designed to do.

Those of you with no problem, try it out in a darker situation, hopefully you'll still be all good, but... you never know.

p.s. - adjusting the brightness does nothing

Won't argue about this potentially being a big problem. It very well may be; however, I think we do have a problem where the general consensus within forums -- even within Apple's Support area -- is skewed by the negative comments of a few people who see it as their duty to try to exert power by swaying others with as much negativity as they can on the boards. Again, this is a potentially bad situation, exacerbated by the personal feelings that many of us have about Apple. As other posters have mentioned, the sheer increased volume of Apple products in the public space will likely increase the number of issues experienced. Also the ease with which we can share our grievances online does do something to heighten negative feelings.

I've read much to make me think and want to see for myself, the level of any problems with the screen. I want to know if this is a major 'defect' type of issue, or something that casual videophiles have an issue with, like the casual audiophiles a few years back who panned all sorts of digital audio compression.

P.S. Pubius, thanks for including links to document experiences. Not sure of the environments in which the pics were taken, but they do give an idea of things to look out for as each of us try to make our own informed choice.

Camui
Sep 17, 2007, 07:40 PM
Slow down there...if you read the whole story (well, all of my posts in that thread), you might consider editing your post.

I don't want to debate Apple's customer service, either, because in general they are very good. But in my opinion a bad experience like this makes me canceling my touch order much more reasonable.

Wow! That is definitely messed up. I'm glad you were able to get your sister a properly functioning laptop. I'm sorry both of you had to go through what you did to get one that worked correctly though.

My younger brother bought a 16GB Touch on Saturday. From the couple minutes I looked at a video on it, I think it is one of the Touch's having problems. I'm planning to look at it again more closely tonight. I will post again after I have examined it much more carefully & closely.

MacinDoc
Sep 17, 2007, 07:57 PM
I was thinking of getting a Touch, but now I think I'll wait and see how this pans out...

Someone else mentioned this earlier, but maybe we'll start to see some refurb units. If we do, I'll take one or two...

Of course, the iPhone would be nicer, but it's still not available in Canada :(

balwx
Sep 17, 2007, 07:57 PM
I'm suprised how widespread this has become. There are plenty of reports, on the smaller forum also.

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r19087443-iPod-Touch-Contrast-Issues

As someone who is an Apple supporter I am concerned about the lack of quality control issues with this product. I also have a financial interest in this company so I am concerned how Apple will handle this & if sales may be affected. I hope there is a quick solution.

w0ngbr4d
Sep 17, 2007, 08:25 PM
What is the iPhone minus the phone?

One of the best media players on the market?

I've been waiting for this iPod since the rumors first started. Yeah it doesn't have all the features of the iPhone. But what is the use of having an iPhone when I can't make calls on it? What use will weather/stocks/email/maps/etc have when I don't have data coverage? None.

This iPod is perfect for what it will be used for, a media player. Nothing more, nothing less. Wifi and Safari are an added bonus which I could have lived without.

It depends on what you want the device to do. Apple can't please everyone. You want the PDA functionality? Get iPhone. You want a media player with the best interface available? Get iPod Touch. They are two separate products that share a common form factor, thats it.

pubius
Sep 17, 2007, 08:29 PM
p.s. - despite my lengthy post on this blackness issue. i, as someone who did not have an iphone, was pretty floored by the power of this device. things have come quite a long way, they'll only get better.

whatever
Sep 17, 2007, 09:05 PM
The iPod Classic is in a whole different type of marketing scheme then the iPod touch. If you want bigger storage, and don't care about the screen size, then the iPod classic is for you. But then again, do you even have an iPod touch? The iPod touch is a crippled iPhone. Period. What is the iPhone minus the phone? And about the NFL site, sure I knew that it wouldn't work because of Flash, but how did I know that it would freeze the whole device?! The rebate or some type of reimbursement will come if enough people demand for it. Just look at the darn iPhone.
No, the iPod Touch is not a crippled iPhone.

They don't even share the same size and weight. Why, because they are different devices. You cannot activate features from an iPod Touch to make it a iPhone. Thus, the iPod Touch although it might look the same and share features of an iPhone is not a "crippled" iPhone.

An iPhone without the phone still has Edge, e-mail, web widgets and Bluetooth. Now believe it or not those are the features which actually made the iPhone a better purchase for me. I'm the first one to state that Edge kind of sucks, however it's perfect for updating widgets for me when I don't have WiFi.

If you knew so much about the iPod Touch, then like me you would have compared the feature set of the iPod Touch vs the iPhone. And if you really wanted those features not included in the iPod Touch, then you should have bought an iPhone (they cost the same).

Football1maniac
Sep 17, 2007, 09:24 PM
No, the iPod Touch is not a crippled iPhone.

They don't even share the same size and weight. Why, because they are different devices. You cannot activate features from an iPod Touch to make it a iPhone. Thus, the iPod Touch although it might look the same and share features of an iPhone is not a "crippled" iPhone.

An iPhone without the phone still has Edge, e-mail, web widgets and Bluetooth. Now believe it or not those are the features which actually made the iPhone a better purchase for me. I'm the first one to state that Edge kind of sucks, however it's perfect for updating widgets for me when I don't have WiFi.

If you knew so much about the iPod Touch, then like me you would have compared the feature set of the iPod Touch vs the iPhone. And if you really wanted those features not included in the iPod Touch, then you should have bought an iPhone (they cost the same).

Even the vice president of Apple agreed that the same OS is on both products. When I was browsing the Internet on it, a web page came up saying "This Web Page Is Not Supported By iPhone" The same characteristics are there, and no they are not the same price. Go add a $37 activation fee, and $20 more bucks a month to maintain an iPhone. For the iPod touch? Nada. Zipp, nothing. Get a 16GB iPod touch for the same price for a 8GB iPhone, there is no comparison. Go ahead and use the crappy EDGE network, and complain about that. Yeah, I can agree with you on the widgets, but still, can't they put in anyway? Go ahead and get mad at me all you want, but the iPhone minus the phone = the iPod touch. But probably the most positive thing about the iPod touch is this: they got rid of the worst part of the iPhone with the iPod touch. That is AT&T.

seelab
Sep 17, 2007, 09:29 PM
Ok, my 16 Gb iPod touch has been cancelled

AppleFan08
Sep 17, 2007, 09:34 PM
Finally! Some publicity about this matter...Hopefully Steve reads the times on his iPhone Deluxe with mind reading capabilities and 1TB flash drive? :)

Camui
Sep 17, 2007, 09:37 PM
OK! I'm back! My younger brother's iPod Touch is definitely having the 'negative black' issue. He purchased his at Best Buy, so we are going to wait and see what Apple does/says because of Best Buy's 30 Day Return Policy.

applejilted
Sep 17, 2007, 09:43 PM
I just cancelled my order for a Touch. I was already less than impressed about the crippling of features (Mail, Notes, Calender, Widgets). I was fine with the lack of Bluetooth and Camera.

If looks like Apple really only included Safari so that you could log onto website-authenticated networks - I bet they would have stripped that out too if they could have. For those of us who already have iPods, not including PDA capabilities really reduces the desirability to upgrade.

These screen quality issues were the tipping point - why take a chance.

PS: The Canadian Exchange rates are also awful - 12.5% higher on 16 GB model.. should be no more than 5% (current exchange rates are ~3%).

The Canadian exchange rate is the one issue seemingly flying under the radar and big corporations (especially auto manufacturers) are absolutely FLEECING consumers .....shame on you Apple ... shame on us for not holding retailers and manufacturers accountable for this .... we only have ourselves to blame .... Canadians have always been known to be too nice (non revolutionary types vis ŗ vis our US friends) .... vote with your wallet refuse to buy a company's products until they charge a fair and reasonable exchange rate.

Speaking of scandalous .... have any of you checked the data plans at Rogers and what they cost ???? No wonder there have been scores of petitions and web sites set up expressly to lobby Governments to have this changed ... that's why I'm disappointed with all the problems and dropped features of the Touch as this would have been the ideal unit in Canada ...I can't see myself owning an iPhone in Canada with our astronomically, exhorbitantly expensive data plans.

whatever
Sep 17, 2007, 10:27 PM
Even the vice president of Apple agreed that the same OS is on both products.
So if the CEO and Founder of Apple says that the iPhone uses the same OS as my Mac Pro, should I automatically start calling my iPhone a crippled Mac Pro?

Let's just agree that you're wrong and I'm right and be done with it <only joking>.

16GB iPhones will be announced in a couple of hours, so that should change everything (unless it's not announced and then everything stays the same).

But the last thing I'll say about the iPod Touch is that by stripping out the phone features and the Bluetooth features, the iPod Touch can never be a mobile phone.

razorme
Sep 17, 2007, 10:29 PM
The Canadian exchange rate is the one issue seemingly flying under the radar and big corporations (especially auto manufacturers) are absolutely FLEECING consumers .....shame on you Apple ... shame on us for not holding retailers and manufacturers accountable for this .... we only have ourselves to blame .... Canadians have always been known to be too nice (non revolutionary types vis ŗ vis our US friends) .... vote with your wallet refuse to buy a company's products until they charge a fair and reasonable exchange rate.


Yes, automobile pricing in Canada is a farce. Apple has always lagged behind the exchange rate, but for the first time I can recall, they actually charged AT PAR for iLife '08 and iWork '08! They are $79 in both countries. But .Mac is $99 US versus $139 Cdn... they never seem to adjust the price on an item after it is released!

razorme
Sep 17, 2007, 10:41 PM
So if the CEO and Founder of Apple says that the iPhone uses the same OS as my Mac Pro, should I automatically start calling my iPhone a crippled Mac Pro?

But the last thing I'll say about the iPod Touch is that by stripping out the phone features and the Bluetooth features, the iPod Touch can never be a mobile phone.

Well, these are opinions, so neither side will give in! I used the word 'crippled' as I am convinced the absence of these programs is purely a marketing decision. This is an omission of existing SOFTWARE... of course software has a cost, but it is not the same as having different hardware.

I think the iPod touch is an awesome iPod for someone in the market - but for someone like me who already has bought 4 since they came out, I would prefer something that could also save me a few trips to the computer - often I am only looking at a couple websites and checking my email. I sure don't want the hassle of typing in my credentials each time using webmail for this simple task. Having Google maps would be excellent for when you need to check an address quick before leaving - I've woken up the computer many times for this solo task too.

Hardly essential requirements, but they would be features that make the iPod touch just that much more compelling and cool - knowing that Apple has made the best product they can. Instead, I feel that they will add these features later and screw the early adopters. I had no problem with the lack of bluetooth and camera hardware.

The iPod touch has a touch keyboard - is there any other device out there with a keyboard that does not have even a simple notes application? This is purposeful omission by Apple, and I will not support it!

Imagine that Address Book and Mail were integrated on the Mac Pro, but not if you owned an iMac. If you complained, would you want someone to say "Oh well, then buy a Mac Pro?". There is nothing to suggest the iPod touch is not completely capable of running those missing iPhone apps! :(

whatever
Sep 17, 2007, 11:13 PM
Well, these are opinions, so neither side will give in! I used the word 'crippled' as I am convinced the absence of these programs is purely a marketing decision. This is an omission of existing SOFTWARE... of course software has a cost, but it is not the same as having different hardware.

I think the iPod touch is an awesome iPod for someone in the market - but for someone like me who already has bought 4 since they came out, I would prefer something that could also save me a few trips to the computer - often I am only looking at a couple websites and checking my email. I sure don't want the hassle of typing in my credentials each time using webmail for this simple task. Having Google maps would be excellent for when you need to check an address quick before leaving - I've woken up the computer many times for this solo task too.

Hardly essential requirements, but they would be features that make the iPod touch just that much more compelling and cool - knowing that Apple has made the best product they can. Instead, I feel that they will add these features later and screw the early adopters. I had no problem with the lack of bluetooth and camera hardware.

The iPod touch has a touch keyboard - is there any other device out there with a keyboard that does not have even a simple notes application? This is purposeful omission by Apple, and I will not support it!

Imagine that Address Book and Mail were integrated on the Mac Pro, but not if you owned an iMac. If you complained, would you want someone to say "Oh well, then buy a Mac Pro?". There is nothing to suggest the iPod touch is not completely capable of running those missing iPhone apps! :(
Well (I thought I was done with this, but then I'm dragged back in), imagine you would buying a high end Mac Pro and discovering that software, such as Front Row and Photo Booth are actually included, but are not installed. Now that to me is "crippled". Having the functionally purposely disabled! I understand why, not everyone has an iSight or wishes to use their Mac Pro as a media machine, but ....

I agree that those apps are removed to differentiate the iPhone from the iPod Touch. Although all may not agree with this, it makes perfect sense. In my case Edge (well not really Edge, but beggars can't be choosers), e-mail and widgets was more important to me than 16GB. Just as for some people
160GB might be more important than a touch screen. Apple had to make decisions on how to market similar, yet different products to multiple groups of users without jeopardizing sales (I for one waited to see the iPod Touch, before finally getting an iPhone).

Whistleway
Sep 18, 2007, 12:00 AM
I remember seeing what happened between the early iMac G5 and later G5's thinking it was going downhill. True, it is in the inside of the case where most will never see it. But, I dunno, I've got respect for things that are architected well. It is like if you see your house being built and the contractors involved are using good, hand picked lumber and not cutting corners in places that will be theoretically hidden from view.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/30/88928219_536b2391bd.jpg

Larger size (http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=88928219&size=o)

Wow, that picture is worth a 1000 words. What has ever happened?

amacisbetter
Sep 18, 2007, 12:21 AM
I was going to run out and get one of these great new iPods, but now I guess I will wait. It's almost like a tease. Now that I know how great they could be, I want one, but the displays suck right now so I have to wait to get one. Although waiting a month for Apple to work out the display problem surely won't kill me! :rolleyes:

maestrokev
Sep 18, 2007, 12:38 AM
Typical apple store happenings. It's almost as if apple tells them never to acknowledge any problems! I've seen (or shall I say heard) mooing macbooks...it's definitely not normal!

Typical Apple Store? I'm starting to believe that Apple store geniuses are a joke! They obviously use that title very loosely :)

maestrokev
Sep 18, 2007, 12:43 AM
The Canadian exchange rate is the one issue seemingly flying under the radar and big corporations (especially auto manufacturers) are absolutely FLEECING consumers .....shame on you Apple ... shame on us for not holding retailers and manufacturers accountable for this .... we only have ourselves to blame .... Canadians have always been known to be too nice (non revolutionary types vis ŗ vis our US friends) .... vote with your wallet refuse to buy a company's products until they charge a fair and reasonable exchange rate.

Speaking of scandalous .... have any of you checked the data plans at Rogers and what they cost ???? No wonder there have been scores of petitions and web sites set up expressly to lobby Governments to have this changed ... that's why I'm disappointed with all the problems and dropped features of the Touch as this would have been the ideal unit in Canada ...I can't see myself owning an iPhone in Canada with our astronomically, exhorbitantly expensive data plans.

Vote with our wallets and buy from the US! I can't believe how much cheaper electronics are in US vs Canada. What I don't understand is why they have a 30-40% duty on clothing purchased from the US when you cross the border back to Canada. Like we're protecting the clothing manufacturing business in Canada ... aren't they all in China or other 3rd world countries now???

Yeah, I don't know why Canadians are buying the iPhone. I'm not rushing out to pick one up until Fido/Rogers comes up with a decent data plan. $100 for 200MB is absurb (http://www.fido.ca/portal/en/domore/options.shtml)

winterspan
Sep 18, 2007, 12:49 AM
Here's what my screen looks like. It's an absolute joke. These are made to watch movies on, we can't just overlook it. That's like buying a car that doesn't start, but it's such a cool car that we can just overlook that small defect. Apple needs to do something about this quickly. The only possible way to get a picture that's viewable at all is to do what us who own them are calling "The Tilt Move"...Tilt it up and to the left...

I can hear it now...

"...But there is one more thing. It's a new iPod with touch controls...and we're calling it the iPod Tilt."

Who said anyone is overlooking this issue?? Are there really people who are seriously considering not returning a $400 defective product???
Thats ludicrous! Seriously, I love (most) Apple products just as much as the next guy, but if you are not completely satisfied with what you purchased, TAKE IT BACK. GET A NEW ONE.

Not only would you be unnecessarily keeping a defective product, but you are actually worsening the problem by putting up with it, firstly by lowering the number of reported defective units, and secondly, by encouraging apple that you'll accept sub-standard quality from them in the future.

Everyone needs to take a vocal stand here so this problem gets fixed as soon as possible!

winterspan
Sep 18, 2007, 01:01 AM
Apple needs to give those Chinese people a rase, I'm not joking. The quality control is really slipping.

First of all, the QA issues in chinese factories are widespread, and Apple does not control the wages of the employees. However, with everyone wanting the best products at the lowest prices, Things like this are going to happen.

winterspan
Sep 18, 2007, 01:09 AM
Man people are picky. I went to the Apple Store last week and didn't notice a thing when I played with them.

Obviously you either played with a unit that doesn't have the problem or more likely you didn't watch a movie/tv/etc on the device that had a dark black image. Either case, don't be such an ignorant tool. If this issue was a minor case of subjective image quality complaints, it wouldn't be so widespread. HAVE YOU EVEN BOTHERED TO LOOK AT THE PICTURES?? OR DID YOU JUST VOMIT OUT A COMMENT? This problem is VERY widespread in the Ipod touch and probably the new shipments of iPhones.
Its a hardware quality control issue and one that has been seen in other LCD screens in other products.

God I HATE IT when lazy people don't research THE FACTS, and just assume they know everything. And then to make a condescending comment about people being picky??? Are you kiddin me?

Evangelion
Sep 18, 2007, 01:41 AM
No, the iPod Touch is not a crippled iPhone.

As far as the software goes, it is. They took the exact same software iPhone uses, then spent time and resources to make it worse.

They don't even share the same size and weight. Why, because they are different devices.

There are real hardware-differences between the two, and that results in real differences in capabilities (lack of bluetooth and cell-phone for example). And I don't think anyone is disputing that.

true, SOME of the software-differences can be explained by differences in hardware, like removing everything related to the phone and bluetooth. But differences in hardware can NOT explain things like removal of notes, editable calendar or email.

winterspan
Sep 18, 2007, 01:42 AM
Oh yes those were the days. Everything Apple produced was perfect back then. Especially the famous PowerBook 5300. If only Apple could produce hardware like that now. Those were the days.:)

yea "those were the days".. you mean the days when Apple was going to go belly up and they had an ancient operating system (kind of like Palm Inc right now). Yes, some of the products were solid, but the company was barely floating. You have to remember that after SJ came back in and things got really popular (especially in the last few years) the scale went WAY UP.

In the whole conversation about the QA problems, no one really said anything about the HUGE VOLUME INCREASES Apple faces each year. Putting out millions of computers, displays, accessories, and now ipods and iphones is obviously incredibly difficult. So they have been having to grow their output exponentially while at the same time continuing to innovate and put out beautifully designed products while also trying to cut costs to shed the reputation for being overprice. I mean my god, I think they are doing alright. They will get these QA and scaling problems fixed over time.

winterspan
Sep 18, 2007, 01:47 AM
My new iPod touch is the best iPod yet. But... there are some features that I wish it had. Obviously the Web clients such as Mail, Google Maps, etc. But the thing about the screen issue, I sure do see it. Now, I have always been a fan of Apple, but now I am sort of getting frustrated about the quality of their products. I'm not being sarcastic or anything, but hopefully Apple will reimburse us some type of credit for these screen issues. I am not returning mine to get a new iPod. I went an hour out of my life to buy one, and they want me to do it again to EXCHANGE it. I'm not all that pleased Mr. Jobs, I want some type of reimbursement. Thank you.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME? You're too lazy to exchange a defective product (rev 1 mind you), but you still want compensation for the problem?? WTF?
What is wrong with you people? First all the moaning about the price drop of the iphone and now you want compensation for a broken product that YOU DONT WANT TO RETURN????

See and you wonder why companies don't do unnecessary things like the $100 iphone rebate or whatever. You give an inch, they take a mile.

winterspan
Sep 18, 2007, 01:53 AM
I purchased my 8 gig ipod touch here in the Phoenix AZ apple store (last one ;) well anyway i do not have this problem with the black screen my Mom and my brother both got the iphone the second it was released and my screen looks just as good as theres playing the same videos side by side i have been trying to snap a picture but i keep grabing to much glare i will try to get some when i get home tonight.

I think that the 8 gig ipod touchs might not have been efected by this screen issue so anybody else out there want to shed some light on there 8 gig models?

Oh and to the people who are worried about it not having more PDA functionality don't worry about that we will be having all of that shortly just give it some time look how far people have came with as little time as iphone now it can be unlocked fully and run 3rd party aps. and look at the guys who did ipod linux (and others) "where there is a will there is a way" we WILL be having those iphone aps soon and that is ONLY the begining.

forgot to quote it but a guy on a earlier post posted that all these people claiming to cancel there orders for there ipod touch i call bs on some if not all i do not doubt it stopped you from buying one after the fact but people who usually pre-order something do not back out so easily.:confused: just my opinion though

Do you need a map to the period, comma, semi-colon ?? Jesus, Lay off the Mountain Dew...

KopThat
Sep 18, 2007, 02:02 AM
The problems with black areas on the video, are they on videos that have been encoded for iPod video at 320 x 240, or ones that have been encoded for the touch at 480 x 320 ?

Could it be an upscaling problem if they are 320 x 240 ?

winterspan
Sep 18, 2007, 02:12 AM
It may also be that the screens are alive, and the shimmering effect is an artifact of the bioluminescence of dinoflagellates or some such genetically-altered organism coaxed to fluoresce...


Haha.. best explanation I've heard all week!

winterspan
Sep 18, 2007, 02:24 AM
The Canadian exchange rate is the one issue seemingly flying under the radar and big corporations (especially auto manufacturers) are absolutely FLEECING consumers .....shame on you Apple ... shame on us for not holding retailers and manufacturers accountable for this .... we only have ourselves to blame .... Canadians have always been known to be too nice (non revolutionary types vis ŗ vis our US friends) .... vote with your wallet refuse to buy a company's products until they charge a fair and reasonable exchange rate.

Speaking of scandalous .... have any of you checked the data plans at Rogers and what they cost ???? No wonder there have been scores of petitions and web sites set up expressly to lobby Governments to have this changed ... that's why I'm disappointed with all the problems and dropped features of the Touch as this would have been the ideal unit in Canada ...I can't see myself owning an iPhone in Canada with our astronomically, exhorbitantly expensive data plans.

I would be interested to see how Apple dealt with you guys when the xrate was at 0.7:1

Did they charge 30-40% more for products? If they didn't, then obviously they just kinda average everything out over the years (hard to imagine).

Im going to go use internet archive waybackmachine to look at store prices...
apple.ca anyone?

btw, I LOVE Vancouver area - .. burnaby... I interviewed for school @ Simon Frasier. If a democrat doesn't get elected in 2008, Im moving north full-time.
(know anyone that wants to get married and get me a 'greenie' ? lol)

winterspan
Sep 18, 2007, 02:27 AM
Well, these are opinions, so neither side will give in! I used the word 'crippled' as I am convinced the absence of these programs is purely a marketing decision. This is an omission of existing SOFTWARE... of course software has a cost, but it is not the same as having different hardware.

I think the iPod touch is an awesome iPod for someone in the market - but for someone like me who already has bought 4 since they came out, I would prefer something that could also save me a few trips to the computer - often I am only looking at a couple websites and checking my email. I sure don't want the hassle of typing in my credentials each time using webmail for this simple task. Having Google maps would be excellent for when you need to check an address quick before leaving - I've woken up the computer many times for this solo task too.

Hardly essential requirements, but they would be features that make the iPod touch just that much more compelling and cool - knowing that Apple has made the best product they can. Instead, I feel that they will add these features later and screw the early adopters. I had no problem with the lack of bluetooth and camera hardware.

The iPod touch has a touch keyboard - is there any other device out there with a keyboard that does not have even a simple notes application? This is purposeful omission by Apple, and I will not support it!

Imagine that Address Book and Mail were integrated on the Mac Pro, but not if you owned an iMac. If you complained, would you want someone to say "Oh well, then buy a Mac Pro?". There is nothing to suggest the iPod touch is not completely capable of running those missing iPhone apps! :(

I've been struggling with this one too.
16GB vs camera/bluetooth/mail/notes/etc. Im waiting to see Apples response to all the iphone unlocking going on. But even without, apparently you can activate with AT&T and just cancel and you have a contract-free phone.
Im sure they'll even find a way to disable the phone radio so as to save battery life and you'll be able to activate it later if you want to use it as a phone again.. Ill wait and see....

swagi
Sep 18, 2007, 02:27 AM
yea "those were the days".. you mean the days when Apple was going to go belly up and they had an ancient operating system (kind of like Palm Inc right now). Yes, some of the products were solid, but the company was barely floating. You have to remember that after SJ came back in and things got really popular (especially in the last few years) the scale went WAY UP.

In the whole conversation about the QA problems, no one really said anything about the HUGE VOLUME INCREASES Apple faces each year. Putting out millions of computers, displays, accessories, and now ipods and iphones is obviously incredibly difficult. So they have been having to grow their output exponentially while at the same time continuing to innovate and put out beautifully designed products while also trying to cut costs to shed the reputation for being overprice. I mean my god, I think they are doing alright. They will get these QA and scaling problems fixed over time.

Honestly, those were the days, when I bought an iBook for about 2,400 bucks (it was 4,200 German Marks by that time), while the TiBook was just too expensive for me with a price point between 4,000 and 5,000 bucks. The iBook was worth every penny, and still runs quiet like a charm (sadly battery is out, but after 5 or so years).

My Powerbook G4 15-inch was bought for around 3,400 Euros. It was still worth every penny, with minor glitches like the uncomfortable heat. I still think it runs like a charm and is worth every penny.

I bought four iMac 17" last year for work. Just exactly one month after the warranty expired, all machines start behaving ******. One has an annoyingly loud SuperDrive, the next a major vertical line glitch across the display and so on. The machines were bought for around 1,300 Euro each.

My point: Apple machines are worth every penny. I still refrain from updating my Powerbook at home, as I feel that the top-of-the-line 15" MBP is just too cheap comparing the price of my Powerbook. I personally feel, that Apple machines not only feel cheaper these days, they behave cheaper these days. And I don't want my good Apple experience of the last years (save the iMacs) to be spoiled by Apple's new policy to use cheapo-innards in their machines!

Back to topic: Now all the iPhone early adopters can feel very happy. They have a $100 store credit and a better screen to brag about. :D

Fotograffiti
Sep 18, 2007, 02:38 AM
I just cancelled my order for a Touch. I was already less than impressed about the crippling of features (Mail, Notes, Calender, Widgets). I was fine with the lack of Bluetooth and Camera.

If looks like Apple really only included Safari so that you could log onto website-authenticated networks - I bet they would have stripped that out too if they could have. For those of us who already have iPods, not including PDA capabilities really reduces the desirability to upgrade.

These screen quality issues were the tipping point - why take a chance.

PS: The Canadian Exchange rates are also awful - 12.5% higher on 16 GB model.. should be no more than 5% (current exchange rates are ~3%).

I canceled my ipod touch preorder as well earlier today. I almost always get the new Apple products as soon as they come out (except for the iPhone), but for $400 and only 16GB of storage, you shouldn't have to hope you are one of the few lucky ones that doesn't have screen issues. For once, I will wait and see how the first ones are and maybe even wait for the next revision. My 8GB nano still works perfectly fine for now. I would be interested to see how many others who preordered went on to cancel their orders because of potential scereen problems.

winterspan
Sep 18, 2007, 02:47 AM
The problems with black areas on the video, are they on videos that have been encoded for iPod video at 320 x 240, or ones that have been encoded for the touch at 480 x 320 ?

Could it be an upscaling problem if they are 320 x 240 ?

I highly doubt upscaling or any other 'data' or software problem is to blame. This is almost certainly a defect in one of the LCD layers or a misapplied anti-glare coating.

1) First of all, the 'whitewashed' deep black effect has been seen before on other LCD screens of other devices. Now I'm not sure if the problem is well known in the industry or not (im sure it is.. but im researching this), but it definitely has been seen before.
2) Secondly, some are reporting that the problem goes away when the unit is viewed in bright light (i.e., light reflecting off the screen), and is worst when viewed in darkness. This again supports the theory of a problem involving anti-glare coating.
3) With some reporting that some ipods are being affected, it makes sense that it probably is a problem affecting a large batch of the screens.

If you think about it, if the anti-reflect coating is misapplied it makes sense that maybe is would "reflect" back light from the screen itself.
What i mean is is that when you are viewing a dark movie, the darkest black parts of the screen are actually "black" because they are not emitting ANY light. Therefore, if light from the surrounding pixels was internally reflecting back onto the screen, it would only be noticeable where there is no existing light, aka the darkest parts of the image. As for why the problem corrects itself (at least partially) when viewed in a brightly lit room with light reflecting off the screen, I haven't figured that out. Then again, I'm not an optical engineer. lol.

MacinDoc
Sep 18, 2007, 02:47 AM
I would be interested to see how Apple dealt with you guys when the xrate was at 0.7:1

Did they charge 30-40% more for products? If they didn't, then obviously they just kinda average everything out over the years (hard to imagine).
No, they charged 40-50% more. International Apple stores, until recently, have always had prices equivalent to an unfavourable exchange rate. Typically, Canadian prices have been inflated 10-20%.

One notable exception is the current Canadian price of the base 24" iMac, which I believe in real terms is almost the same as the American price.

winterspan
Sep 18, 2007, 02:56 AM
Honestly, those were the days, when I bought an iBook for about 2,400 bucks (it was 4,200 German Marks by that time), while the TiBook was just too expensive for me with a price point between 4,000 and 5,000 bucks. The iBook was worth every penny, and still runs quiet like a charm (sadly battery is out, but after 5 or so years).

My Powerbook G4 15-inch was bought for around 3,400 Euros. It was still worth every penny, with minor glitches like the uncomfortable heat. I still think it runs like a charm and is worth every penny.

I bought four iMac 17" last year for work. Just exactly one month after the warranty expired, all machines start behaving ******. One has an annoyingly loud SuperDrive, the next a major vertical line glitch across the display and so on. The machines were bought for around 1,300 Euro each.

My point: Apple machines are worth every penny. I still refrain from updating my Powerbook at home, as I feel that the top-of-the-line 15" MBP is just too cheap comparing the price of my Powerbook. I personally feel, that Apple machines not only feel cheaper these days, they behave cheaper these days. And I don't want my good Apple experience of the last years (save the iMacs) to be spoiled by Apple's new policy to use cheapo-innards in their machines!

Back to topic: Now all the iPhone early adopters can feel very happy. They have a $100 store credit and a better screen to brag about. :D

Yea, I remember my 12" powerbook (aluminum?) , should have kept the damn thing apparently people are still buying them up like crazy off of ebay.
I agree, those were knockout products. It is sad to see the consequences of apple going more mainstream with their products and having to compete with $500 POS windows machines... I hope with all these problems coming out that they "get back to the basics" and go for high-quality/high margin/lower volume products and not try to win the growth game so much.

Btw, where are you in Germany? I've been meaning to get over there for a couple of years now. I have a good friend in Stuttgart, and would love to see the rest of the country. I just started teaching myself german (rosetta stone software - good stuff). I also almost went for the worldcup, but alas I've been stuck here in the USA working too hard.

winterspan
Sep 18, 2007, 02:57 AM
No, they charged 40-50% more. International Apple stores, until recently, have always had prices equivalent to an unfavourable exchange rate. Typically, Canadian prices have been inflated 10-20%.

One notable exception is the current Canadian price of the base 24" iMac, which I believe in real terms is almost the same as the American price.

ouch that sucks. There are a few good things about living the USA after all. (hard to find lately... :()

Cirrius
Sep 18, 2007, 08:40 AM
So do I have to eat the 10% return fee at the Apple store if I take this back? I was trying to watch BSG episodes last night and the shimmer was driving me absolutely nuts :(

badapple18
Sep 18, 2007, 09:07 AM
Do you need a map to the period, comma, semi-colon ?? Jesus, Lay off the Mountain Dew...

i think your the one who needs a map buddy some of your comments are down right impulsive and ignorant (period) lay off the commenting on everybody elses coments and have your own opinion.

and check your facts because plenty of people have also reported having no problems i for one can contest to that

ksz
Sep 18, 2007, 09:24 AM
i think your the one who needs a map buddy some of your comments are down right impulsive and ignorant (period) lay off the commenting on everybody elses coments and have your own opinion.

and check your facts because plenty of people have also reported having no problems i for one can contest to that
I have to agree with winterspan; why can't you punctuate? If everyone followed your example, this place would degenerate into an inscrutable mess. Here's an improved version of your reply:

"I think you're the one who needs a map, buddy. Some of your comments are downright impulsive and ignorant. Lay off the commenting on everybody else's comments and have your own opinion...and check your facts because plenty of people have also reported having no problems. I, for one, can attest to that."

Cloudane
Sep 18, 2007, 09:26 AM
So do I have to eat the 10% return fee at the Apple store if I take this back? I was trying to watch BSG episodes last night and the shimmer was driving me absolutely nuts :(

My guess (based on how other companies operate) is that they'd try to deny there's a problem and force a 10% return fee, especially for online orders/returns where they're not face-to-face with the customer. But that they'll relent when you start saying it's not Fit For Purpose under the Sale of Goods Act and demanding your statutory rights.

asiayeah
Sep 18, 2007, 10:56 AM
My Macbook is quiet most of the time, I only hear the fan when I am doing something intensive, or if I am using Vista (Stupid Resource-Hog) :mad:.

There's no doubt that iBook is silent, while Macbook and Macbook Pro are quiet only and noisy occasionally.

Under normal circumstances, iBook's fans are turned on. However, for Macbook and Macbook Pro, their fans are always on!

asiayeah
Sep 18, 2007, 11:01 AM
I canceled my ipod touch preorder as well earlier today. I almost always get the new Apple products as soon as they come out (except for the iPhone), but for $400 and only 16GB of storage, you shouldn't have to hope you are one of the few lucky ones that doesn't have screen issues. For once, I will wait and see how the first ones are and maybe even wait for the next revision. My 8GB nano still works perfectly fine for now. I would be interested to see how many others who preordered went on to cancel their orders because of potential scereen problems.

I also cancelled my ipod touch order today. Indeed I also told my friend about this issue and he also quickly cancelled his order.

The thing is this ipod touch is quite an expensive device and it is for watching movies! Thus, we simply cannot tolerate any screen defect. Plus, we are ordering on-line and it is just so troublesome to ask for a replacement via online ordering in Hong Kong!

I actually tried to make a phone call to cancel the order (Apple Store Hong Kong). I have tried 3 times and I just got no answer! Then I tried to make the same phone number and choose to make a new order, someone answered! Once, I told them I want to cancel my existing order, they forwarded me and then no one answered again! Given this level of service, I simply cancel my order right away on the website without any hesitation.

jjd
Sep 18, 2007, 11:35 AM
My guess (based on how other companies operate) is that they'd try to deny there's a problem and force a 10% return fee, especially for online orders/returns where they're not face-to-face with the customer. But that they'll relent when you start saying it's not Fit For Purpose under the Sale of Goods Act and demanding your statutory rights.

I haven't even opened mine. It is still shrink wrapped. I mean, they gotta take that back, right?

DWKlink
Sep 18, 2007, 11:47 AM
After being stuck on "Prepared for Shipment" since last Thursday (also making it impossible to cancel), my Touch just shipped from Apple. A phone call last week to a puzzled Customer Service rep on Friday revealed that when something reaches this status it normally ships that day... he couldn't tell why it was still stuck like that.

I'm hoping it was because they were sorting out all the bad touches (Billy, there are good touches and there are bad touches...) and they sent me a fantastic screened one. But I know better.

Fingers crossed until it gets here... hopefully by the end of the week. Will update when I get it in...

Cloudane
Sep 18, 2007, 01:05 PM
I haven't even opened mine. It is still shrink wrapped. I mean, they gotta take that back, right?

Forgot to mention the laws I quoted were UK, but if you're US I think you have something similar.

Check with Apple, it's the only way to know. In terms of legalities, in the UK they have no obligation to take back something that isn't faulty, but do have a 14 day grace period albeit with a £20 charge to cover postage.

grovertdog
Sep 18, 2007, 05:37 PM
Well, after reading ALL of this thread, I was leaning towards cancelling my 16GB touch order this morning. Might as well wait for all of this to flesh out, and I hardly "need" the iPod immediately. Lo and behold- look what just came in the mail from Apple (coincidence, your guess is as good as mine)... Sure haven't received ANYTHING regarding either the 24"iMac or the Airport Extreme I ordered at THE SAME TIME!... Here goes:

We are happy to report that your iPod touch is now in the process of shipping. You'll see that the item is in Prepared for Shipment status on our Order Status website at www.apple.com/orderstatus. The iPod cannot be changed or cancelled at this point. A shipment notification email with the tracking number for your item will be sent within 24 hours.

You should see tracking information on the carrier's website within 24 hours of receiving the shipment notification email.

Thanks for shopping with Apple.

Sincerely,
Apple Store Customer Support

Cloudane
Sep 18, 2007, 06:08 PM
And I didn't think Murphy's Law worked in reverse! Just wish they'd deal some out to me :D

princigalli
Sep 19, 2007, 01:33 AM
No word from Apple yet. I didn't place an order for Ipod Touch yet, but I am definitely not going to do it now. I really like it but this kind of attitude from Apple is not correct. They just don't even seem to care about this. We have one MacBook Pro at home and two MacBooks. One of the macbooks has a strange issue with the screen. When watching dark scenes, if you are not placed exactly in front of the screen it will look like the image is negative.

Is this what you expect from a computer brand so popular among photographers and graphic designers? Maybe my next purchase will be a Sony Vaio. I don't like Windows most of my computers will be Mac, but if they work this way then Mac OSX will just end up being like the Ipod Touch: a toy I really want but with too many problems.

MacAficionado
Sep 19, 2007, 02:12 AM
Jesus H. Christ.

If you don't like the features of a product don't complain. Just get a Zune. Enjoy the Zune.

Whine, whine.... Jeez. settle down, pathetic. If Apple sees a problem with the screen, they will fix it.

Now, if you don't like that it does not have mail, then shut up and buy a Zune. Simple whiners.:eek:

Here - Enjoy (http://www.buy.com/prod/microsoft-zune-30gb-digital-multimedia-device-brown-audio-player-video/q/loc/111/203171424.html)

Cloudane
Sep 19, 2007, 05:00 AM
I'm getting tired at the irony of people whining incessantly about "whiners"...

If there is a flaw in the product, people have the right to complain. Sure there are a collection of fanboys who will accept and worship anything that Apple throws at them whether it works or not, but most people who have a defective product would prefer to try and get it resolved whether that's by dealing with Apple directly or kicking up a fuss in public so that they actually listen (sometimes this is the only way).

If the product is a disappointment to people who were going to buy it, then they're doing Apple a favour by sharing their opinion, which is best done on places such as this where there are a lot of people and the opinion can spread (you don't seriously believe any company reads feedback forms do you?). Believe it or not, most of the "whiners" like and care about Apple products and are "whining" because they expect better from this company. It's better known as "Constructive Criticism" and can be very useful.

The whole reason you have an iPod Touch in the first place was because so many people "whined" that they wanted an iPhone without a phone, that Apple sat up and listened. In ~6months time when Apple inevitably say "you wanted HDD-enabled 160GB iPod Touches and so they are available from today" I want to see people like this get on their knees and thank the so called "whiners" for helping to ensure it happens.

asiayeah
Sep 19, 2007, 06:17 AM
Question is when Apple will acknowledge the problem? I'm afraid no one will feel safe placing an order for an ipod touch now, particularly doing an online-order.

Fluffymuff
Sep 19, 2007, 09:29 PM
I'm getting tired at the irony of people whining incessantly about "whiners"...

Not to mention the double irony of people whining incessantly about people whining incessantly about "whiners."

If you are giving a green light to whiners, then why shouldn't those who whine about them be given the same green light. Of course, I don't mean to suggest any light other than green for people like you who, in turn, whine about the whiners about the whiners. Whine away, darling, and let the tears spilling down the lipid folds of your wizened visage shimmer the silver black shimmer of an iPod Touch.

The whole reason you have an iPod Touch in the first place was because so many people "whined" that they wanted an iPhone without a phone, that Apple sat up and listened.
See how easy it is to embrace something demonstrably false when you start out by anthropomorphizing a corporation. As long as you think Apple is a person, I suppose it's reasonable to conclude that a global manufacturing effort has responded in less than two months to your whining in a thread. All that matters is that you believe it, because if you believe it, it is real.


In ~6months time when Apple inevitably say "you wanted HDD-enabled 160GB iPod Touches and so they are available from today" I want to see people like this get on their knees and thank the so called "whiners" for helping to ensure it happens.
The evolution of religious thought: no longer is it about explaining natural disaster and human mortality, but corporate strategy in Cupertino, and next generation iPods.

teme
Sep 20, 2007, 02:28 AM
I still like Apple, but recently my "love" for Apple has gone downhill. It seems that with the success Apple has become just another big company with bad attitude.

The limitations in iPod touch software are like Microsoft limiting the use of their products without no specific reasons. There are so many possibilities in iPod touch, but Apple seems to ignore them... sure, people will say buy iPhone if you want to input something to the calendar or send email or write notes... well I can't because iPhone isn't available in my country and I doubt that it ever will be available (because in Finland mobile phones are unlocked). Apple can do whatever they want, because it's their product, but all this is annoying for a customer.

Second reason is empty promises. iTunes Finland still doesn't sell any videos, not even music videos, and Steve Jobs have promised few times that all the video options will come to Europe too (I think he mentioned that the movie downloads will arrive this year - yeah right).

Third reason is the bad quality control. I understand that nowadays electronic devices aren't perfect and they can't be made to be perfect and 100% tested. But seriously... if a screen is defected, surely that is something quality control should notice. Or when a iPod touch arrives without proper software. I think all Apple products have had some serious issues recently (well, maybe not iPod shuffle). About a year ago I recommended iPods and Apple laptops to all my friends, but I'm not sure anymore.

Fourth reason is the greedy attitude - if I have bought all iPod games for 5th generation, now I should buy all the games again if I update to 6th gen iPod classic? Yeah right, Apple can keep the new classic iPod, I'll stay with my old one. Surely they can't make so much profit with games that this kind of action is necessary, they are just annoying customers.

iPod is still the best media player there, and OS X is still the best operating system... but I'm not sure if my next laptop will be a Mac. I wanted to buy a new iPod classic, but probably not...

connectcctv@mac
Sep 20, 2007, 04:28 AM
Got 1 yesterday and i agree there seems to be an issue. But i have noticed that if you view video or a dark picture with them home button on the right hand side then you have a neg black, if you rotate it so the home button is on the left hand side then the problem is no so noticeable. Try it

Cloudane
Sep 20, 2007, 05:22 AM
Not to mention the double irony of people whining incessantly about people whining incessantly about "whiners."

Or the triple irony of people whining incessantly about people whining incessantly about people whining incessantly about "whiners".

We could do this all day!

What you're forgetting though, is that there's a difference between whining for the sake of it (which I don't like either), and raising legitimate concerns. Obviously, fanboys (or fangirls) see *all* form of criticism to be "whining", I mean how dare anyone say something negative about Apple or any of their products, this is a sin!! :rolleyes:

See how easy it is to embrace something demonstrably false when you start out by anthropomorphizing a corporation. As long as you think Apple is a person, I suppose it's reasonable to conclude that a global manufacturing effort has responded in less than two months to your whining in a thread. All that matters is that you believe it, because if you believe it, it is real.

Eh? Good heavens, you're really scraping the barrel here, are you just being argumentative for the sake of it, or to prove that you know the word anthropormorphisation? (well done, "have a cookie" as they say over there)

Believe it or not, there are actually real people working for that corporation. Perhaps what's getting lost in the translation here is that it's perfectly acceptable English to refer to a company as "they" or "Apple are". It's only the Americans who refer to companies as single entities.

Clarification for those who are blind to anything but their own exact semantics: "The whole reason you have an iPod Touch in the first place was because so many people "whined" that they wanted an iPhone without a phone, that the people working for Apple departments such as Customer Relations and Product Development (a handful of whom are almost certainly monitoring at least their own forums, if not others such as MacRumors) realised that there was heavy demand for what would later become an iPod Touch."

Better?!

And damn right they did it in 2 months. They already had most of the parts and design, and have proven that they didn't spend long on it (examples include a dialog in Safari that someone mentioned which includes the word "iPhone" by accident, poor quality control, etc)

The evolution of religious thought: no longer is it about explaining natural disaster and human mortality, but corporate strategy in Cupertino, and next generation iPods.

Heh, perhaps - for religious fanatics who worship Lord Jobs of Apple and start mouthing off at anyone who dares to say a word against them. Remind you of anyone? :rolleyes:

Crispy Duck
Sep 20, 2007, 11:25 AM
Can't believe no one has mentioned yet that Apple have apparently admitted to the problem...

http://www.macworld.co.uk/ipod-itunes/news/index.cfm?newsid=19160

Scarpad
Sep 20, 2007, 11:37 AM
Can't believe no one has mentioned yet that Apple have apparently admitted to the problem...

http://www.macworld.co.uk/ipod-itunes/news/index.cfm?newsid=19160

Question now is will they do anything about it.

mrzippy
Sep 20, 2007, 01:53 PM
Can't believe no one has mentioned yet that Apple have apparently admitted to the problem...

http://www.macworld.co.uk/ipod-itunes/news/index.cfm?newsid=19160

It has been mentioned, just in another thread!

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=358086

Cloudane
Sep 20, 2007, 02:29 PM
Ooh, deja vu!

Well there we go. I bet if no-one had complained, they'd still be shipping out dodgy screens. However going by recent threads, they've finally fixed the problem from the Week 38 models onwards. Yay :D

mrzippy
Sep 20, 2007, 02:41 PM
Ooh, deja vu!

Well there we go. I bet if no-one had complained, they'd still be shipping out dodgy screens. However going by recent threads, they've finally fixed the problem from the Week 38 models onwards. Yay :D

I hope so as I want, no need, an iPod touch....

Hands are shaking...

:apple:

gkarris
Sep 20, 2007, 03:20 PM
I hope so as I want, no need, an iPod touch....

Hands are shaking...

:apple:

Go to the nearest place that sells them and make sure it's week 38 (in the serial number).

And remember to breathe...

nubero
Sep 22, 2007, 01:34 AM
Maybe because they sell more products these days that there is more chance of some failures/defects ? i.e. if they sell 100,000 macs a quarter with 100 failures - thats ok (0.1%).... but 60 million iPods with 100,000 failures doesn't read as well... although the ratio of produced v failure is there about the same.....

very funny.

lemikam
Sep 24, 2007, 06:55 PM
After only minor confusion (five minutes or so) at the front counter, the Apple Store I bought my touch at swapped mine out for a new one. No restocking fee, no nothing (this new one is fine, by the way; the flaw isn't inherent to every touch out there).

They did have me show them the problem in the store (which I was able to do easily) and I did have everything still in the original box, albeit un-shrinkwrapped and un-plastic'd.

I did not need the receipt, but I did do my swap within the original 14-day return period at the store that I bought the thing at.

How many of the folks complaining about the screen quality have actually tried to fix it? I think you may be pleasantly surprised by the ease with which they'll be willing to make it right (at least if you complain within 2 weeks).

PS - The two week thing makes sense, by the way. Otherwise, how can they be sure the problem is their fault?

Cirrius
Sep 24, 2007, 11:31 PM
So do I have to eat the 10% return fee at the Apple store if I take this back? I was trying to watch BSG episodes last night and the shimmer was driving me absolutely nuts :(

To answer my own question, it would seem so.

I decided after hearing that a newer Touch was in stores that corrected the problem I would exchange mine. The Apple employee however argued with me for 15 minutes, stating that he would not accept an exchange based on "RAMPANT INTERNET SPECULATION" for a problem that "Apple does not officially recognize" and said that the exchange would incur a 10% restocking fee.

I continued to argue the issue, pointing out that there was also dust particles under the glass and dead pixels (I was fine with these, as they were unnoticeable while watching fullscreen video) but coupled with the faulty display I could not accept this as a non-faulty device. More arguing ensued and I had to raise my voice just to get him to agree to a replacement. It was embarrassing the lengths I had to go through to get a device I was happy with. I would have been in and out of a Best Buy with a brand new device in 5 minutes.

Oh, and to the said employee in the Dallas Apple store who assured me that I would be just as unhappy with the exchange because the screens were identical, the new ipod screen looks great. No negative Blacks, dust, or dead pixels. Next time I'll just go to Best Buy.

Cloudane
Sep 25, 2007, 05:11 AM
I think it's the same everywhere. You get good staff, and bad staff. Those who are happy to help, and those who are looking for a fight.

However you also get good customers and bad customers.

My tactic would usually be:

a) Start off as friendly and polite as possible, explaining the problem, why it matters to you (watch a lot of dark movies or whatever), and ask if anything can be done. We all know about consumer rights etc, but remaining polite at this stage (and keeping such threats out of it) often gets things resolved fairly quickly as it puts the staff at their ease. Even smile, charm, and drop in small talk - it all helps to do this. Going in guns blazing is a 50/50 job, because then you're triggering their "fight or flight" instinct which means you'll get either a never-ending argument with the employee standing his ground until security come, or an instant refund, respectively. Alternatively, the "flight" could be towards a supervisor, starting the 50/50 process all over again. Too much of a risk IMO.

b) If that fails, remaining friendly and polite (geniune, not sarcastic), re-state exactly the same thing. "Well, the thing is I really do watch a lot of dark movies and I'm really not sure this screen is up to par. I've seen others which don't have this problem. Are you sure there's nothing you can do to help?".

c) Prove it - get them to put theirs and yours side by side with the same video (keep a copy on CD), or borrow a friend's good one, and test it in an environment where the problem will show up. Then re-state the case again.

d) If this still fails, ask - nicely if possible - for the supervisor/manager (better hope you have proof at this point, as supervisors tend to go more "by the book"). Start roughly from "a", being kind and polite etc.

e) If he too is awkward, now's the time to start mentioning consumer rights, that a product should be fit for the purpose for which it was advertised etc etc.

f) Still no luck? Ask for the complaints procedure. Put in a polite but firm complaint, sit back and wait.

g) If you can be bothered, now's the time to start threatening then going ahead with court action. Sure you could suck up the 10% for the sake of a peaceful life, but that's what the retailer is relying on... depends on the price of your principles. (Admittedly, I'd probably give up and suck up the 10% at this point and refuse to deal with them again, but I doubt it'd come to this).

NEVER mention that you heard about the problem on an internet forum. That's just asking for trouble. The internet is generally not seen as a reliable source, especially forums, so that'll usually earn an immediate dismissal of the problem EVEN IF they've admitted it elsewhere. Also you could be seen as only raising an issue because someone else told you there's one etc. As far as they're concerned you should have discovered the problem yourself, and possibly have a friend with the same issue or a more reputable printed news article or something which you discovered afterwards. It's "I happened to notice this problem", not "I heard about this problem on the internet and I think mine might be affected"

Good luck to those returning! Hoping I get a decent one first time :o

Tom5683
Sep 25, 2007, 03:44 PM
I got my 16gb Ipod Touch on the 14th and happened to get one with the black screen issue (Week 37). It was terrible to watch any video that had a dark scene in it. I called Apple Care and they told me I had two options 1.) Send Ipod in for a week to be repaired 2.) Make an Appt. at the Genius Bar at the Apple Store where I purchased it from and they would exchange it. I made my first appointment for last Friday. I showed the Genius one photo of the Jay-Z Black Album and he was surprised at how bad the screen was. He went to the back to grab a new one to exchange, but they were all sold out. They said they would put one a hold and call me the next time that the 16gb came in. Apple called on Monday morning said they had one on hold and to setup another appointment at the Genius bar. Today, I brought in my original Touch and they exchanged it with no problems in just a few minutes. The new one that I got is a week 38, and has absolutely no problems with the screen. In fact the black detail is very impressive. I think it looks even better than my brothers Iphone when playing the same videos. My advice to anyone with the black screen problem is to call Apple Care before going in to the store so at least you have a case number to reference and it seems more legitimate that you have done some trouble shooting.

Cloudane
Sep 25, 2007, 03:47 PM
call Apple Care before going in to the store so at least you have a case number to reference and it seems more legitimate that you have done some trouble shooting.

Good point. Shows that you've made some effort already. Add that to my little list above :)